Springhouse: How a voice saved my life & inspired a school, with founder Jenny Finn

Episode Transcript
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Jenny (00:00):
We need examples, not just ideas, not just
conversations, not just thoughts.
We need examples of what itlooks like when a community, an
intergenerational, diversecommunity, says you know what?
We're going to come togetherand we're going to see what it
means to foster vitality inourselves, with each other and

(00:20):
in this place over time.
And why not call it a school?

AJ (00:35):
Springhouse Community School has been called the most
dynamic and promising experimentin education and community
building.
It's a K-12 bilingual schoolwith adult programs, community
networks and even a print shop.
That's a glorious story initself.
It also works with aparticipatory budgeting and
pricing model and incorporatesthings like restorative justice
and land regeneration practices.
The school describes itself asan intergenerational,

(00:58):
vitality-centered learningcommunity in southwest Virginia,
where we are fundamentallytransforming the purpose and
practice of education.
Its vision a world where alllife thrives Sounds obvious when
you say it.
What else would the point ofeducation be?
It all stems from MegWheatley's premise that life

(01:18):
pushes back against a story thatexcludes it.
Jenny Finn is the school'ssomewhat unwitting founder and
executive director, having neverimagined she'd be living here
or doing this.
It's a wonder she's even withus at all.
But her death-defying tale hasultimately shaped her journey
and as we talk about it, someuncanny parallels in our lives

(01:42):
feed a consistently amazing andoften hilarious chat.
In her car Yep, we tried in heroffice, as it was too windy
outside, but school life was infull volume as an evening event
commenced, which, by the way,featured student and other
presentations on economics andthe cosmos.
Now that sounds like aneducation G'day.

(02:05):
Anthony James here for TheRegenNarration, your independent
, listener-supported podcastexploring how people are
regenerating the systems andstories we live by, with thanks
to new subscribers on Substack,Bronwen Morgan and Nelson Cheng,
the first founding member.
Thanks, brother.
And to the generous soulsclocking up over three years of
support on Patreon Chris Houwing, Stuart McAlpine and Angie

(02:28):
Sellitto.
Thanks also, angie, for yoursupport over here on this US
tour.
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(02:48):
With my endless gratitude, kay,let's head to Spring ouse,
starting in Jenny's office andending with her singing for us.
Oh, and, if your ears aresensitive to the sound of
Jenny's swooshing jacket, thatgets the boot about 15 minutes
in.
Jenny, it's terrific to be withyou.
Thanks for having us at theschool.

Jenny (03:07):
I'm so glad you're here.
Welcome.

AJ (03:10):
We could start in any number of places, but I figure let's
locate ourselves first.
So we're in your office at theschool, but let's bring the
listeners in to where that isexactly.

Jenny (03:22):
So we're sitting in Floyd County, virginia, and Floyd is
a mountainous place low, slow,rolling hills that have a wisdom
to them.
I'm someone who came from.
I grew up in Detroit, Michigan,and then I lived in Colorado
with my family for over 20 yearsmy husband and my kids and then

(03:43):
we moved to these mountains, soI have this relationship with
the Rocky Mountains and with theBlue Ridge Mountains here, and
these mountains are older andthe land is wise here, lots of
water and lots of wisdom inthose mountains.
So I do believe that I had nointention of founding a school,

(04:08):
so I'm really clear that this isthe land and this is the place
where a school like this couldbe born and thrive.

AJ (04:19):
Brilliant.
So how did it come to be hereand how did you come to be here?

Jenny (04:23):
That is a big story, let's go.
So, okay, where do I want tostart that story?
Aj, I think I'll start it whereit's most important to start,
and that is an experience I hadnow almost 35 years ago, when I

(04:44):
was 20.
So when I was 20, I was a youngadult who was very, very lost,
very lost in addiction toalcohol, to relationships.
I came by it.
Honestly, I have an IrishCatholic lineage where there's
many, many alcoholics, soalcoholism is my lineage.

AJ (05:09):
I know it too well.

Jenny (05:11):
Right.
So it's not surprising thatthat's what happened for me and,
as you can even see lookingaround my office which I didn't
see this before there's lots ofwings, there's lots of wings,
there's lots of birds, there'slots of things related to
soaring and flying, and there'sa deep part of me, I think, that

(05:33):
had real trouble, and sometimeseven still does, being on the
planet the way it is now, and sofinding finding ways to escape.
It is what I did, and itstarted young with sugar and
things like that that are nowsocialized and normalized.
But there's an awareness I havenow where I saw and can still

(05:54):
see the ways that I want toescape.
So this is important becausewhile I was in the escape
process really dangeroussomething found me, and that
mystery that found me has neverleft me.
So when I was 20, I was very,very drunk at a party and I was

(06:17):
about to do something not sogood to the guy that I was
dating and I had a reallyhateful thought come through
that basically wanted to killhim.
And right after that thought,something in me happened, almost
like, like shook me, and Iheard from within very clearly

(06:40):
put your drinks down, you willnever drink again, and I have
never had a drink since that day, and I can tell you, everyone
around me, including myself, wasshocked that that shift
happened so quickly.
The wake up call happenedquickly, and then I learned
really quickly that if I wasgoing to live in accordance with
what woke me up, I was going tohave to create a different life

(07:03):
, one that didn't have me goingto the bar every night, one that
didn't have me following myboyfriend around.
New things had to happen.
I had to find new communities.
I had to find mentorship fromelders, from people who were
examples of the way I wanted tolive my life.
So at that time it was alwaysabout well, it's always been

(07:24):
about how do we live in a waythat is more aligned with life?
In a culture that is not, thatis really doing its best to kind
of be out of alignment,unconsciously mostly, but even
consciously.

AJ (07:40):
Control it, control it.

Jenny (07:42):
Exactly Escape it, not be in the body, not be in the
earth of things addiction.
So I woke up really young andthen, very soon after that, I
was diagnosed with a veryserious, life-threatening cancer
at 25.
That was that would have killedme 10 years earlier.
They've just started toexperiment.
It was a lymphoma and Iobviously survived.

(08:06):
And I had another experiencewhen I was coming out of surgery
with that voice again thatbasically was telling me from
within that all is well.
It just kept saying all as well.
And it was from after that.
Very shortly after that, thewakeup call for me turned into a
calling of service.

(08:26):
So it was a wake-up call to meand I thought, oh my God, there
is something within us thatshows itself in a million
different ways.
For me it was a voice that Istill hear.
That I heard and that's myrelationship with it.
And how I connect with themystery of life is has been a

(08:48):
number of ways Dance is aprimary way for me, but quiet
meditation, walking in the wood,there's a million ways that I
connect with my body and withwhat's sacred and grow my self
awareness so I can be more awakeon the planet.
So, having that wake up calland then realizing that oh my
God, there is something deeperat play here and being

(09:10):
introduced by my mentors to oldmystics from all over the world
people I wasn't alone.
I realized that I wasn't theonly person waking up to
something that she couldn'texplain and I thought well, that
means that that's possible foranyone in their own way, and so

(09:31):
what happened was to keep thestory short and get it to Floyd
County, virginia is.

AJ (09:38):
It doesn't have to be short, okay.

Jenny (09:40):
When I was in Colorado I ended up doing a lot of things
just to strengthen I was justfollowing my call, so I was
doing things like I worked.
I got my master's in licensedand social work, which was in a
traditional program that frankly, didn't do a thing for me but
other than give me a little bitof a pathway, and from there I

(10:03):
ended up doing a residency as achaplain in a spiritual care
department, in the emergencydepartment, and so I was faced
with death a lot.
I worked in hospice and therewere a number of things that I
did.

AJ (10:16):
Can we hold that one?
Because I was as you weretalking.
I was curious about why youtrusted that voice in a, in a
state and a habit, a pattern ofdisregard, why that voice felt
to you like it had substance andneeded to be followed, such

(10:38):
that you thread through to thatmoment and you're you're in a
chaplaincy role I know it'scrazy.

Jenny (10:45):
I'm gonna cough my brains out do it cut, it's something
yeah, it's totally triggered,you.
Hey, it's like it reallytriggered spice in the car park.

(11:17):
Let me tell you we won't, wewon't forget this no, that's
right we're not gonna forgetthis process this is maybe this
will be a story we tell later,because something really funny
happens from this whole thingLive podcasting.
Exactly.

AJ (11:30):
So we have adjourned to the car in the car park, because
cooking up a storm, as the staffis doing currently, really put
some sort of spice in the airthat derailed us in our former
location.
So we've shifted, but not inthe big picture sense.
So let's pick it up where wewere, which is, I was already

(11:51):
thinking how did you know totrust that voice and why did you
give your life to that voice,in a sense?
And then that's only sort ofaffirmed through your journey to
the point where you're nowassuming that level of
responsibility, and almost asacred responsibility.
How did that happen?

Jenny (12:07):
Amazing.
I have to say that I thinkthat's a miracle.
I think it's a miracle I reallycan be very stubborn, very
strong-willed.
So the fact that I bent towardthat voice While I was 20 years
old at Michigan State University, living in the only residential

(12:30):
house in the middle of townthat was surrounded by pretty
much every bar in East Lansing,michigan, the fact that I stayed
with it is an utter miracle.
But I think it also speaks tothe power of that wake up right,
because it was like it musthave really shook me to the core

(12:52):
.
But many, many and I've knownmany addicts continue their
addiction and even die fromtheir addiction without, I mean
while they are losing theirfamily, maybe going to prison.
So the fact that I was 20,mostly you know the norm around
me because of you know I mean itwas partying, I mean people

(13:12):
were partying.
It was college in the UnitedStates of America, it was a Big
Ten school and that's kind ofwas normal around what I was
doing.

AJ (13:24):
Yet you stepped outside of it.
There's actually one of thelines that I noticed on the
website I think it was, I'massuming it was.
I noted it down and then I'vejust got it here in front of me
right now which is from MartinLuther King Jr.
It's very topical for usbecause we were just in the
African American Museum in DCyesterday, which is
extraordinary, and the quote wastake the first step in faith.

(13:45):
You don't have to see the wholestaircase, just take the first
step.
It sounds like it was a seriesof steps.

Jenny (13:52):
You didn't look to some abstract future, you just took
the next step in these cases,Exactly that phrase in Martin
Luther King Jr is reallyinformative in my life and huge
continues to be an affirmationand an elder, even though he's
on the other side.
For me, and my whole life hasbeen lived that way.

(14:14):
Since that moment, I woke up tothe fact that there's I don't
know what it is, but there'ssomething that I can follow
that's deeper and moremysterious, but very concrete
and real.
So, after you know, I woke upto that mystery and then started

(14:34):
following it in my path.
That was informed by my lifeexperience.
It was like, okay, now I'msurviving cancer, now I want to
be of service, now I'm going totake this next step, now I'm
going to take this next step.
And all of those steps had ledme finally to not finally, but
in that moment in my early 30sto what was happening was I was

(14:55):
being invited into anyorganization you can imagine
schools, churches, prisons,colleges where else?
Hospitals.
By word of mouth, people wouldlearn about what I was doing.
What I was doing was creatingthe conditions for more vitality
to rise, in people first, andthen in organizations and

(15:18):
communities.
So I never even knew what toput on my business card.
I literally don't even.
I remember I didn't even knowwhat to put.
I didn't know what I was, butnow, in looking back, I was a.
I was a condition creator forvitality, and I was a fricking
expert at that, because I hadreally I'm trying to find some

(15:41):
appropriate words here I hadjust spilled water all over my
vitality, not without evenknowing it as a young person,
and then really awakened to like, oh my God, just like a wood
fire in a stove, I got to takecare of this fire.
One of my teachers calls it thefire that takes no wood, the
fire inside of us that takes nowood.
It's always burning, and howmuch we feel warmed by it,

(16:04):
guided by it, is how much wetake care of it.
It's always there.
It's always there.
That's the grace of the wholething is that we're breathing.
We're breathing the breath oflife, so we belong, we're here.
How we relate with it and takecare of it matters, has always
mattered, and matters now morethan ever.
And in order to learn how totake care of that inner fire, we

(16:26):
need places to practice.
So I would be called into theseorganizations, and their design
wasn't at all about taking careof the fire in our you know,
metaphorical inner wood stoves.
It was usually economic.
Economics is part of the deal.
Money, people, resources,physical that's all part of the

(16:47):
deal, but it's not the center.
It's what we do and use andexpend to take care of and give
of the fire.
But we've gotten misguided,obviously globally, on this and
have put money at the center ofthings.
So when you have a life or anorganization that's designed
around that that's the designyou can go in and try to spark

(17:08):
vitality.
All you want you may have andwe did have precious moments.
I had precious moments withprison administrators, with
doctors, with nurses, witheducators, with MSW students and
when the design does not takecare of that vitality, every

(17:30):
single person who hired me tocome in and do that work said
that was amazing.
We had so much vitality forthat moment, vulnerability, and
then in a month it's gonebecause we're not designed for
that.
And a lot of those leaderschanged their roles and even
left the systems after waking upto that fact.
So when I lived in Colorado,right maybe a couple years

(17:52):
before we left, I was hired forthe second time by an
organization called Semester atSea and they're a college study
abroad program.
About six 700 people on agigantic ship goes around the
world for four months.
I went in 2000 as a young, as a20 year old, as their mental
health professional, and then Iwent as the spiritual director

(18:15):
in 2010.
A friend of mine hired me whoknew that I was doing a lot of
work with dance as a way tofoster vitality.
I share that because when Iwent on the ship, I had a
four-month period that I neverhad with these other
organizations, so I'd drop in,right, I'd drop into the
organization, do the thing,maybe I'd go six times, but

(18:37):
there wasn't a continual culturethat was happening.
What happened on semester atsea was unbelievable.
In fact, I was just teachingabout it this morning with our
adult program Because we had afour-month container or culture.
I consistently, through dance,was sparking vitality and it
started with maybe eight to tendancers and by the time we

(19:18):
pulled into Florida, there wereover 200 people on the dance
floor.
It was the biggest thing on theship.
They've never seen anythinglonger term container or a
longer term community or cultureand you spark vitality,
something different happens.
One of those people on thatship is now a Springhouse staff
person.
Like how many years later Came?
Maybe 10 years later.
So, people, when we held a10-year reunion, there were

(19:41):
still people online who came tothat reunion after 10 years.
Imagine like something you did10 years ago and then didn't do
it again and you return for thereunion.
That is powerful Um so we rolldown this window?
or are we hot or not?
Maybe I'm hot Cause I might.

AJ (19:56):
Yeah, but we can.
We can give it a little alittle let's do it a little,
give both a nudge so we can geta three way way I love us and
our adaptability.
Yeah, right on, honestly, letthe birds in.
Okay, here we go.
That wind should be okay.
See how we go with that wind,okay yeah, that was my only
thing.

Jenny (20:13):
Yeah, yeah.

AJ (20:15):
In fact, let's not have the through, let's put one up.
That would be true.
Leave yours open, Okay great,unless yours is the layer one.
Is the wind coming from there?
I can't tell.
The dust is Wow, yeah, it'sprobably.

Jenny (20:26):
Yours feels better.
Probably better mine, huh,that's fine, I'll be great if I
just yeah, take layers off, juststick some layers on All right.

AJ (20:32):
Okay.

Jenny (20:35):
It's just getting better.

AJ (20:35):
This is great, this is, I'll tell you right now this, make
it into some blog post for me orsomething.
I don't know.
Me too, I dare.
Yeah, it's good, it's great,that's awesome.
Okay, so we're heating up inthe car.
Yeah, the sun is shining, whichis quite lovely.
Uh, layers of being shed and uh, and uh, windows open one
window so the wind doesn't comethrough, and um, but it'll let

(20:59):
it, let the sound of place in,and we're nearing to our circle,
back to Floyd County and thisschool, but before we sort of
come to that full circle.
I'm curious I guess I'm still onthat like where was this source
for you?
And I've heard from so manypeople in their journeys that

(21:20):
it's very often uncannily tracedwhere people are aware, in
sometimes surprising ways.
And so I'm curious for you,given what we said before about
an Irish Catholic upbringingthat we share and some of the
observations of that that wealso share, how much you know
about your broader ancestry andorigins and origins and if you

(21:51):
have any sense of a thread inthere that you happen to carry
today.
I can't believe you're asking methat question?

Jenny (21:54):
tell me why.
The funny thing is, too is myhusband is on a trip right now
in west virginia and he justsent me a text that said he just
met a guy who speaks fluentIrish and he gave him his Irish
CD that he sings he.
Literally just before I cameonto this I saw that the reason
why that's interesting isbecause most of my heritage and

(22:17):
lineage is Irish or Scottish andso I've been learning the Irish
language for five years.
I sing in Irish and there'ssome weird connections.
Even here in Springhouse, Ifyou look up at the chandelier in
the Great Hall, there's thesymbol of a triskeel, which is
an old ancient Irish Celticsymbol of transformation.

(22:41):
It's got three little kind ofwheels, and Floyd County was
settled mostly I don't even knowif the right word is settled.
I don't know.
I'm not sure what they did, butthey came and moved here, they
came here.
Irish, scottish people camehere, yeah, so a lot of.
If you've been to the countrystore, floyd Country Store.

AJ (23:02):
No tip, we go in the next.

Jenny (23:03):
Okay, great, there's-.

AJ (23:04):
For the music tomorrow.

Jenny (23:05):
Oh, great, great, great.
Oh my God.
That's the first place I landedon when I came in Floyd County
and I wept as someone whocreates community through dance.
God, there's such a story theretoo.
I was just there today leadinga community roundtable.

AJ (23:17):
Is that right?

Jenny (23:18):
Yeah, we do beyond the school.
There's so much to tell, let'scontinue.
So the lineage is veryimportant in terms of my own
lineage and, I think, how it'saffecting our work here.
The staff member who met me onSemester at Sea dancing around
the world.
She and I for the past fouryears oh God, this is all coming

(23:42):
together here For the past fouryears have been pilgrimaging to
Ireland.
I started that pilgrimage 13years ago.
My great granny is fromNorthern Ireland and was a total
badass fighter for freedom andso, yes, I have a lot of lineage
in that way too.

(24:02):
But our press, our printingpress down there, was born in
Ireland.
It was born in the NationalPrint Museum in Dublin in the
most.
This is what I mean byfollowing the steps.
So it's like we didn't know whywe were going to Ireland.
We've been going to Ireland.
I walked into the NationalPrint Museum this is how long

(24:23):
this is, after 10, 8, 9 years ofSpringhouse already being in
existence, already a schoolalready happening.
We went, we just followed thethread to Ireland.
We've just both had this call.
We went, we met Liam in theNational Print Museum of Dublin.
My husband's a printer, so butI don't.
I mean I don't really have aconnection to printing.

(24:44):
The husband's a printer, so butI don't, I mean I don't really
have a connection to printing.
My friend who we were stayingwith, lives right next to the
print museum and there's alittle cafe there.
I was more interested in thescones and tea than I was the
printing, so I was in the cafe,but and then I walked into the
print museum and I'm talking.
I'm a writer and so I'm talkingto Liam and Liam's like, oh,
precious person, said he.

AJ (25:08):
Stop hitting the steering wheel Exactly.
I'm so sorry listeners.

Jenny (25:11):
So he said if you want to get close to your work, if you
want to get closer to yourwritten work, print it.
So I was like, interesting Idon't know what we would do
about that.
Well, welcome to.
That was the beginning of theprint shop.
We came back, we got aletterpress printer and all of a
sudden we had people donatingfull print shop stuff to us.

(25:34):
There was a print shop on theEast Coast called, I think,
press of the Night Owl Owl isreally important to me too and
he had died.
The printer had died.
His wife gave us all.
His wife gave us all of hisstuff.
So, all of a sudden now we havethis full blown print shop and
mentorship from some printers inCalifornia.
Our whole print shop was bornwithin a month.

(25:56):
I wrote the book in anotherweird way, following the steps,
wrote the book over the courseof maybe not even a year, I
don't even know.
Maybe I had already written it,I might've already written it,
and we letterpress printed it.
We made I mean Sarah Pollack,who was the dancer with me, she
made the book and illustrated it, printed it and the year later

(26:19):
we went back to Ireland and wewent and saw Liam in the
National Print Museum and hesaid oh my God, I totally
remember you two.
And we said we did it, liam,and we handed him a book and we
all started crying.
We all started crying.
So that's just an example andif listeners are listening and
going Well, wait, what is thisplace?

(26:41):
Now I'll tell that story.
So, given everything I've said.
I was in Colorado.
My husband had a studio graphicdesign studio.
I had a studio, we had kids, anurban farm.
We were rooted in ColoradoSprings, we had a community.
I was on boards, nonprofit, lala la, doing all my stuff At the

(27:01):
same time, my husband and I.
My husband came back from somekind of a lecture at the local
college and he came into ourroom and he said what do you
think about moving to Virginiato farm?
And I was like I have nevereven thought the fact that my
husband was saying that that wassomething I would say.

(27:21):
And I looked at him and I waslike I don't that.
My husband was saying that thatwas something I would say.
And I looked at him and I waslike I don't know why you're
saying that.
I've never thought of that, nordo I really want to think about
it, but I will because you'resaying that.
Three weeks later I was calledby a college 45 minutes from
here that had heard of my workthrough the PhD program.

(27:43):
I was in and they wanted tohire me to come and teach for a
week.
I had no idea where the collegewas.
I was like, where are you?
And they said Virginia.
And I went I'm on my way, I'mcoming, and the first stop?
I couldn't even wait to goteach.
I put my kids in the car anddrove to Virginia and the first
place we came through was Floyd.
And the first place I went towas the Floyd Country Store, and

(28:06):
the owners of the Floyd CountryStore are now two of my dearest
friends, and Heather studiesthe design that we've now
articulated, that we shareglobally, and she was just at
the table with me today studyinghow do we foster vitality in
place over time.
How do.
We do that even more so at thecountry store, and so really,

(28:28):
like I said, if we live in adominant culture, I don't think
I need to probably tell anyonewho.
Not just conversations, notjust thoughts.
We need examples of what itlooks like when a community, an

(28:50):
intergenerational, diversecommunity, says you know what,
we're going to come together andwe're going to see what it
means to foster vitality inourselves, with each other and
in this place over time.
And why not call it a school?
Why not call it a school?
Why not call it a school?
Why does school have to be whatwe've all known it to be,
especially in more westerndominant culture that's now

(29:12):
globalized?
The more I work with peoplearound the world, it's like
that's a global system causingthe same problems in kenya as it
is here.
So it makes perfect sense whatwhen we when finally it was like
a year my husband and I we wereliterally if you talk to people
in Floyd County, you will hearthis story we were pulled here.

(29:33):
We did not leave Colorado orour community because we didn't
like it or didn't we?
We're just fine and with ourchickens and our bees and our
vegetables, we were pulled.

AJ (29:47):
Which is interesting because in those other contexts of your
life you weren't fine and thetransformation came, which is a
common story for those who'veexperienced transformation is it
came because there was thedeath was coming in your case,
literally.
Yet in this instance,everything was fine, which for

(30:07):
your life stands out Right,exactly, it's like fantastic,
yeah, why would I If it ain'tbroke?
That's with this.
Yeah, that's right, exactly.
Let me risk everything.

Jenny (30:17):
Exactly, exactly.

AJ (30:18):
Yet it didn't feel like that .

Jenny (30:19):
No, no, it didn't.
No, we were confused by thewhole thing.
I can remember when we left, wewere getting dressed for this
kind of going away party for usthat was being held in a local
coffee shop and we felt myhusband.
I remember him saying I feellike I'm getting dressed for a
funeral.
Wait, why are you guys doingthis?

(30:50):
And I got here, and before I gothere, I did some kind of
rituals.
I did some ritual on the SnakeRiver in Wyoming just to let go
of the part of my vocation thatI was doing in Colorado Springs
which was really important todevelop skills, develop courage
important to develop skills,develop courage.
Have my ego slaughteredrepeatedly by going into these

(31:10):
organizations to foster vitalitywhere you know maybe the CEO
wants it, but the doctors at theconference table are like who
is this person?
Why are you inviting us to juststand up and move our bodies?
Like we don't want to do that?
So it was all really goodpractice for me.
So I wandered the country roadshere in rural Appalachia for
about six months in my pajamasand just wondered and finished

(31:34):
my PhD, which was really all forme about.
It was I didn't need a PhD, itwas all about learning for me
which is sad to have to say that.
But I mean because now it seemslike education is a means to an
end, when it's our birthright tolive and learn.
And I went to a great programin Arizona, prescott College,

(31:56):
and had a great cohort where Iwas really able to just have an
alchemical experience reallylearn and grow and um, and so I
wondered and I was like, what'smy commitment now?
what is my calling now?
And my calling was to in placeover time, see what would happen
if a community came togetherand intentionally designed

(32:18):
themselves in a way thatfostered life that fostered
vitality.

AJ (32:24):
Okay, so you chose a school which I mean you say, why not?
In a sense, yeah, but on theother hand, comes with a whole
bunch of strictures attached tothe culture, the dominant
culture, exactly, having donethis myself.
Yeah, post-grad, yeah,benchmarks, you have to meet and
all this sort of stufflegitimizing stuff in that
culture.
Yet you took that on and wereyou sort of doing this solo at

(32:49):
the time?
Yeah, so how did that start?

Jenny (32:53):
Weirdly, there was a guy, joe, here in Floyd County who
had some kind of connection tomy work on Semester at Sea.
I never met him before.
He had heard about my dancework, found out that I lived in
Floyd, him, and another man,ezekiel, who we also had mutual

(33:13):
connections, but I'd never heardof these two in my life until I
came here.
They had tried to start a highschool connected to another
school in town.
It wasn't going well.
High school connected toanother school in town.
It wasn't going well.
And Joe called me and saidsimilar thing that happened in
Colorado Would you like to comeand do a little, you know, like

(33:38):
dance or whatever?
Whatever, come work with us.
I'm like I, you know why not, Ijust got here, I'll just do it.
Well, it ended up that schoolcrumbled and so it was already
in that, that form of school,and it was crumbling.
And then I found myself sittingat the table with these two
beautiful men saying how.

(33:59):
I cannot tell you how manytimes I asked Wait a second, am
I one of the founders of thisschool?
Am I doing this with you two?
Are we doing this?
Are we doing this?
And that's when Spring House wasborn, with the three of us and
then it attracted a lot of thestaff are still here from within
the first two to three years.
So it started attracting people, especially young adults, and

(34:25):
we were really clear that wewere not going to follow.
We didn't want to follow thenational standards.
I mean, we didn't need another,we didn't need another thing.
Like there's places that you,you literally it's illegal to
not follow the nationalstandards.
Here it's not Really, yeah, andso I didn't know.
I was like.
I was like I mean, is this evenlegal?

(34:46):
You know what we're doing.
We're kind of making this up.
What are we doing?
And that has been our ethosfrom the very beginning and even
though we're now accreditedI've had conversations with our
accrediting body and I eventhought about this this morning

(35:07):
not sway from our vision and ourmission, which is to live in a
thriving world and tofundamentally transform the
purpose and practice ofeducation.
So if that is ever on the tablelike we will never there's some
standards we will never meetand that just has to be okay.
We're not going to like, work onthem, like and when we got
accredited I basically saidwe'll never meet these standards
to like silo subjects likeEnglish, math, spanish, like.
In fact, we keep trying to getaway from that and we keep

(35:32):
coming back to it, probablybecause we're trying to be
legitimate in the eyes ofparents and we are so conscious
of that now I mean we just had aconversation on that front
porch we don't want to.
That's not our mission.
So we are really working onstrengthening our connection to
our own.
We call it like the source ofour own lives and our collective

(35:54):
source, which means, honestly,a lot of sitting in quiet, a lot
of listening to each other, alot of singing, a lot of dancing
.
It's a different roadmap tolisten to that mystery.
It's not a logical to listen tothat mystery.
It's not a logical that comesafter Like, once it pops up like
, okay, we're founding aprinting press.
This is interesting.
Now all kinds of logic andthings come in.

(36:17):
Or last year someone said whydon't we be an English-Spanish
speaking school?
I mean we have like 100 asylumseekers here and immigrants who
are living in Floyd County ormore.
Why don't we?
We know diversity makes thingsespecially when it's cared for
makes things more vital.
Why don't we do that?
And we were all like, ok, let'stry it.

(36:39):
And now, oh my God, we'rechecking in on our staff
meetings in Spanish and it's allright.
So it's like it comes up andthen you use, then there's all
kinds of cognition and logic andthe rational part.
But to listen to what life iscalling from us takes a whole
different kind of skill androadmap that, frankly, there is

(37:05):
no way we are going to getthrough this mess without that
surrender and listen and humblelistening to that and many of us
just even those might belistening going.
I don't even know what thatmeans.

AJ (37:19):
Right, and I totally get that.
Yeah, we need to learn it.

Jenny (37:25):
We need to learn it and it starts with stories where,
when I woke up and was like, ok,I guess I'm not drinking
anymore, I would never havestayed sober if I didn't see
other young people who weresober.
So I found my way to programsand things where it was like I'm
looking in the eyes of someonewho's like I've been sober for a
year.
This is what my life is likenow.

(37:47):
I'm not falling downstairs anddriving drunk and making an ass
out of myself.
You know it's like.
It's like oh, wow, that soundsappealing, that sounds like a
good thing.
So, but I if that were just anidea that you know, it's like.
I looked in their eyes, Iremember their names and so

(38:09):
that's like you know our mutualconnection.
When they came to visit, I mean, one of the people said he
heard me speak at a conferenceand he said this is the first
time that I have heard someonespeak about a possibility and
then say it's happening and thatthat's actually true.
He's like I'm actually, youknow, I was like he didn't use

(38:33):
the word skeptical, but he waslike I've just not seen it and
he's like now I'm here.
Now that doesn't meanSpringhouse is perfect, it's a
utopia.
It's a group of people willing.
It's like that quote fromRudolph, I think, barrow.
It's like we're willing to beinsecure enough to try to create
and audacious enough to try tocreate a very local, strong

(38:58):
example of what it looks likefor people of all ages to seek
vitality to seek vitality.

AJ (39:07):
Wow, that really landed, Because you know our mutual
connections that you referenced,which, by the way, stem back to
Guatemala my time there whichlisteners are sort of getting
increasingly au fait with asthese links show themselves 20
years on.
So, yeah, the friend inBaltimore that came here and is
looking, with a group of people,to set up something and this is

(39:29):
part of what you do now helpothers set up schools to this
end, and some of these peoplenot just him are faced with the
prospect of staring down theteacher's pension and benefits
that they've worked hard toattain, and in a society which

(39:49):
even differs from Australia inthat way, that is, less safety
net oriented, collective safetynet oriented and, for all of
Australia, adopting neoliberalstuff too and similar small
brother politics to what'shappening here.
We've still maintained a lot ofthat social infrastructure,
which I'm proud and happy about.

(40:10):
I can see why people would feela bit more insecure here, but
yet, listening to that phraseyou finished on that that's
partly what it required Of allthe things that you guys have
not being a utopia and all, butthat you were a group that was
committed to going there, andobviously not just materially,

(40:30):
but I'm imagining, inclusive ofmaterially.
You were prepared to put it allon the line.
Yes.
I guess, now that you work withothers to inspire others to take
up their form of this sort of amodel, have you heard a bit of
that yourself, or how could Ipossibly actually do it?
Or have you sort of got yourready message, as part of what

(40:53):
you share, as to how you guysfaced down those sorts of
moments?

Jenny (40:58):
That's a great question.
That is the first thing peoplesay is we could never do this,
because it's that survival kindof yeah Right, like I couldn't
do it.
And that's why you know, I say,and you know in the in the
short book that I wrote and weprinted the five principles we
follow, to start something likethis, which we didn't even know

(41:22):
that we were doing is we takecare of vulnerability, we
cultivate personhood and we dothat embody in the sacred and in
our self-awareness.
So this isn't like somephilosophical thing that we just
came up with in our closet.
It's like we looked at 10 yearsof experience and we articulate
, we asked ourselves for a yearwhat did we just do?

AJ (41:42):
How did it happen?

Jenny (41:43):
Yeah, how did it happen?
We I haven't even seen thestaff's resume.
I don't care about that.
What I care about is thatthey're willing to strengthen
their body, their soul and theirself-awareness, and I'm
committed to anything.
I ask of them and they ask.
I do the same, we do the same.
We're a community, and then webuild beloved community by

(42:04):
respecting individuality, byfostering unity and by creating
systems to take care ofrelationships.
We learn from the earth aboutgrowth, so we build an example,
we sustain it and then we helpit as it spreads, and then to
sustainably keep at it.
In loving and serving others,we learn how to accept reality,

(42:26):
follow our call and keep going.
So that's what we know.
We know that we do that.
At the center of all of that isthis mysterious thing that we
just can't get around, and sowhen I'm working with your
friend, when I'm doing that manytimes even when I was just on
Zoom with them for six hours weconnect with that mystery,

(42:46):
starting in ourselves, with ourvery own breath.
It doesn't matter how we do that.
We can run to strengthen ourbodies, we can swim, we can pray
, we can meditate, we can sit inquiet.
It has to have nothing to dowith any kind of religion, to
foster a sense of wonder andsacredness.
And we can grow, and shouldhonestly grow, our

(43:08):
self-awareness in a number ofways that allow us to really be
clear about our gifts and ourshortcomings.
And I've never been able to dothat.
I mean, I'll only go so faralone.
I have mentors in communitieswho I trust, so I share that,
because if I don't foster thatconnection with that power

(43:29):
within me, I will make somethingelse.
That power and it's usually inour culture money, money,
becomes the be all, end all forsecurity, or my husband or my
status and prestige, or eveneven like being overly organized
, like even even a form of let'shold on to this schedule.

(43:49):
It's like what is actually atthe center, it is the living,
breathing, breath of life, andthat if you go a school I even
went to there that's called BIOand it's really about returning

(44:12):
to the breath of life.
It's not a religion or anideology, it's a practice.

AJ (44:17):
Okay, now I have to chime in with a little something.
I was thinking about it beforebecause my Irish ancestry is
sort of making a bit of a returnin my being and I never thought
of myself much in those terms.
I felt Australian and I reallyconnect with that drier, harsher
, you know less green,particularly in the west side,

(44:38):
not like Ireland, right.
Yet the podcast leads me tothis guy called Munkun McGann.
You, you haven't heard.

Jenny (44:45):
I do not, you know.
Yeah, he was just in the schoolthat I was in.

AJ (44:48):
Oh my God, okay Beautiful, you're going to love it.
So I connect with Munkun asmuch because he had just been to
Australia, going to some of theplaces we've been to with the
podcast, in Northwest WesternAustralia, for example.
So there was something elsegoing on, and what was going on
was he'd been invited to anIrish Aboriginal festival like

(45:12):
an ancient Irish, likeIndigenous Irish if you like
Aboriginal festival in Fremantle, so near Perth, near the
capital, sort of 12 miles fromus, and we're sort of I guess
what are we in miles?
Sort of 8 miles, 14 kilometresfrom Perth on the coast and
straight down the coast south,12 miles is Fremantle and that's
where the Swan River comes out,or Derbule Yerrigan is the

(45:33):
Aboriginal name.
So he'd connected with thatfestival and then really
connected with some elders,including some elders from the
Kimberley ends up being invitedthere.
So does that?
And we were just about to bethere, but by the time we were
there he'd gone there.
So does that?
And we were just about to bethere, but by the time we were
there he'd gone.
So we linked up online while Iwas there and then had this
lovely conversation, which thenis sparking all sorts of stuff

(45:54):
in me.
I guess I'd felt emerging in asimilar kind of way, but it
really put a kick to it.
And I say that now because ofwhat you just said about what's
embedded in the language, whichis his whole, what's ended up
becoming of his life a guy who'dleft Ireland all the more
because of his freedom-fightingheritage, which he became a bit

(46:14):
suffocated by, funnily enough,funnily enough, but ends up full
circle back in Ireland,applying his travel, writing,
travel, documenting mind to hisroots, irish roots, and that it
comes up with this kind oflanguage which, of course, is
shared it's the basis of thisfestival in Western Australia is

(46:36):
shared by Aboriginal culturethere, and to think that they
found the links were enormous.
It's like that's notnecessarily a given, but in a
way of course, and you canimagine that that would be true.
Well, in a way, right, ofcourse, and you can imagine that
would be true.
Well, in the region we're inright now, and and on we go yes,
fascinating to think.

Jenny (46:55):
Yeah, and you know it's.
It's when people, if people arelistening and they're like I
don't really even still like.
One of the things I've relievedmyself off is trying to explain
the mystery of life.
However, however, just have ablob in the center of life.

AJ (47:06):
However, however, just have a blob in the center of that
schematic you talked about.
That's just that.
It's just a blob yeah, thesource of everything.

Jenny (47:12):
But to put a little story to it is I think it was maybe a
few years ago I had a surgeryon my neck and it was just like
a you know skin kind of removalthing.
But when they showed me they'relike, do you want to see the
wound?
I was like sure, I'm.
Like, oh, it was a huge likehole in my neck, right.

(47:33):
Okay, so it took, I cared forit, took care of it.
But every day I watched thatheal, I took care, I cleaned it.
I put you know, did all thisstuff, but I wasn't healing it,
you did it yeah.
I wasn't healing it, there wassomething else healing it.
There is something that movesthrough these trees before you

(47:54):
can see it the buds are startingto happen.
Yeah, right, and there issomething, there is a life force
moving through that tree.
There is a life force movingthrough me and through you and
through anything that is a formand is living.
We need to learn how to respectthat.
Not only respect it, butpartner with it.
And I have had the good grace ofbeing able to partner with the

(48:18):
source of my life in me for 35years now, and I have been
relentless about that journey.
I don't leave it and that's amiracle I don't get distracted.
I haven't gotten distractedfrom that.
And so as you build arelationship, I that's with my
partner or with what created me,and I just haven't.

(49:00):
I've been married to it, I'm inlove with it, and so I keep
coming back to that and it keepsshowing me the way.
And I want to have more placesthat teach us how to fall in
love with our lives and listen,trust and follow, because, as
the poet David White has said inone of his poems I think it's
what to remember when waking theplans we make are much too

(49:21):
small for us, way too small,lovely.

AJ (49:26):
Right, okay, you hit the ground running with this school.
Yeah, you choose this ground,or it chose you it chose us,
it's already in your eyes.
Yeah, tell me how it happened.

Jenny (49:38):
We started in a basement of an eco village, super
grateful.
That's where Joe and Ezekielwere when I came.
We were there and then Joe andEzekiel found their way out into
different things, followedtheir path and I stayed with a
small group of people and wejust knew it when it was time to
go from the basement.

(49:59):
I mean my office was in ashower closet, I mean we were
really grateful, but you justknow when you're like it's time
to go.
Anyone who started anything newknows right it starts in your
freaking kitchen, you know, dowhat you got to do.
Yeah, exactly.

AJ (50:14):
And you can.

Jenny (50:14):
And you can.
You can, you can start anywhere.
You can do a podcast in a caryeah, when you're choking on
smoke from the kitchen.
So we ended up moving to kindof another.
Well, we moved to a buildingthat was even less conducive.
I would say it's just a stepaway, and this is what I love

(50:37):
about this community.
We all showed up painting walls, doing everything, but I knew I
was like this is not going to.
This cannot last for more thana year.
This cannot be the place Like Idon't even know that I would
send my kids here.
So that year I knew I didn'tknow what was going to happen
and I received a call from abeautiful couple from not from

(51:03):
this area, whose young adult hadgone through one of our
programs.
They called me and said webelieve in what you're doing, we
want to support you and we aregoing to purchase you a
permanent location wow to moveinto this place used to be a
chinese medicine clinic it wasin foreclosure, yep which by the

(51:24):
way.

AJ (51:24):
By the way is what my wife does.
Who's sitting in that building?
Oh my.

Jenny (51:27):
God, that's what this used to be.
Okay, an herbal garden, amedicine garden was here, big
one, wow, and it's still.
A lot of the plants are stillthere, and then lots of
acupuncture, all kind of Tai ChiQigong was happening here and
it created this incredibleenergy here.
It was in foreclosure, thatcommunity kind of.

(51:48):
I'm not sure what happened toit, but it fell apart and they
bought this 11 acres in thisbuilding.
The economic design is rootedhere in trust, so we don't in

(52:12):
the trust of something greaterthan us.
When I get scared and I don'tget scared anymore, but I did
for many years I would continueto hear this voice Do your best,
be in service to life, and youwill be taken care of over, like
over and over.
I can remember the moments andso we take that really seriously

(52:34):
.
I mean, we have systems inplace that remind us of that.
We have a participatorybudgeting process where the
whole staff meets every Marchand we talk about what we need
financially, what we needfinancially.
We create the budget.
We look at what the communityneeds and make sure that those
are in alignment, that we haveenough staff to do that.
Do we have too many?
Do we have too few?
And we decide we come to thetable together and say, okay,

(52:59):
I've looked at my numbers, thisis what I need this year.
Some people might come to thetable and say I got an
inheritance from my grandmother.
I actually I could drop mysalary down 10 grand.
And so it's not about more, moreand more.
It's about what do we need nowand what do we need to thrive?
Not to survive, but thrive.
Like someone might say, I wantto go get my master's this year,

(53:19):
so I need this much.
Or I would like to startputting away to buy a house, and
so these.
We have these conversationscommunally with each other, so
we trust each other a lot, andthen when we have, I think 80%
of our budget is people.
That's how we are.
You don't need a lot to do whatwe're doing and we pay.
No, this is our building, so wedon't have to pay any rent or

(53:41):
anything.

AJ (53:41):
This is so central to everything, especially when I
talk about the fear people mightfeel, even amongst that cohort
that I've connected with.
They're going to start theirown thing or things.
Maybe is essentially the fearcomes from thinking okay, this
society is made to have us allisolated on our own and need to
have that pension fund orwhatever retirement fund or

(54:02):
superannuation.
We call it in Australia thesame sort of beast, and I better
not risk having to fend formyself and have it go wrong.
But I guess there's perceivedto be a leap to get into a
context where you can and you dotake care of each other.
So, yeah, hearing how you dothat, like I instantly imagine

(54:23):
it playing, as others have beendoing and experimenting with as
well, but playing out with, forexample, agriculture.
So I've met a lot ofregenerative farmers, for
example, but they'll strugglewith the same thing.
They'll be getting squeezed bythe same market forces while
they're trying to do this thingbring back nature, along with
healthy food and so forth andthinking how am I going to get

(54:48):
through that where it doesn'tmatch, the logical types don't
match.
Until it reaches this sort of apoint where the dialogue
between retailers, distributorsand the producers is let's get
together and figure out whereour needs are shared and what's
required, which doesn't seemlike rocket science.
Frankly, Shooting could be done.

Jenny (55:06):
Right, and it does take our financial manager, who we
used to have but don't now.
Now we do it in house.
He said I've been doing this along time and there is no way
any of my other clients could dothe process that you're doing.
He's like I've never seen it.
There's no way, because ittakes an emotional not
perfection and emotionalmaturity that he's like people

(55:27):
are.
No one would ever reveal howmuch they make to someone else
because it triggers all kinds ofstuff within the, within the
organization, and for us it'snot.
The salary isn't first.
The shared vision and missionand goals are first, and then
the acknowledgement that we livein a culture where we money is
a resource and we need it, butit's not at the center and

(55:51):
people don't.
We have a fundraiser every June, one a year, and it's a local,
it's called Give Local and it'sall the nonprofits participate
in it and we raise like, let'ssee, last year we raised in
three weeks $125,000 from nearly500 unique donors.

(56:15):
So, when you look at the othernonprofits in the area, it's not
even I mean, the next one downwas like 40,000, right.
And it's not because peoplearen't doing good work.
It's because we understand thatwe need a network of support
that includes the participantsbut goes beyond it, and we have
people who never have taken aclass here but believe in the

(56:38):
vision and share the vision andthe mission and support it at
that fundraiser or we have awhole partnership model where
people join.
We've been really creativebecause what we do is we look
and transparent and transparent,and so we look at this is what
we need, we, this is what themoney that we need for the next
year.
And then we come together andgo how are we gonna?

(57:00):
How are we gonna?
Get it because financially noone is turned away for lack of
funds.
So some people here pay nothing.
Okay, literally zero.
Um who come to school?

AJ (57:09):
and they don't feel weird for that either.

Jenny (57:10):
They don't know.
And then some people pay 10grand.
It just depends on what theyhave.
But all of that, all of that ison the surface of something
much deeper and maybe moremysterious that takes systems of
commitment to grow, that kindof trust.
That is that one little voice Iheard in me Do your best.

(57:31):
So if there was a year whereI'd be like, oh my God, we have
this plan to try to bring inmajor donors for 80 grand, let's
say I'm like where is it?
How are we going to even getthat?
I can remember sitting underthe tree out here and being like
what if we don't get it?
There we go.
And Carolyn was like I mean,then we figure something else

(57:51):
out, but we have no reason tofear.
There's no place for fear here.
We will trust ourselves and eachother and that's what we do for
each other and we were fine, Imean we were fine, yeah, but
weird stuff happens, like evenjust a month ago we got a check
in the mailbox that we didn'texpect for $24,000 from someone

(58:12):
who had us in our will and theperson who was even connected to
that person didn't even know wewere in their will.
See, it's this kind of thing,but that's all kind of like,
that's all like fancy.
I think it's like kind offlashy or something to say that.
But why I'm saying that isbecause it's a testament to

(58:33):
something that I could neverexplain.
I don't understand why it isthings like this happen, where
we have this building now, and Idon't know because a lot of
people do good work and don'treceive the resources they need,
and I don't know because a lotof people do good work and don't
receive the resources they need, and I don't.
I can't explain why.
That is.
All I can say is we are stillhere, radically and

(58:54):
fundamentally explain it.
But I do pay attention, as apractitioner and a scholar, to I
want to practice and then Iwant to reflect on the practice

(59:16):
and see is there anything we canpull from this to share on a
podcast in my car or to sharewith people who are in Maryland
trying, who are like you knowwhat we want?
Liberation for all life.

(59:36):
That means we're going to haveto align with life.
What does that mean?
That's what this experiment is.
This is an experiment.
What happens when youcontinually, forever and ever,
eternally, align with life?
Because it never stops.

AJ (59:52):
There's no place of arrival requires a learning for certain
processes, certain systems,emotional maturity, trust, being
there for each other.
So, yeah, we're shiftingcultures, so it's big in that

(01:00:13):
sense.
So, yeah, come back to theschool.
Now You've got the land and youset up and you're running it
like this as staff and so forth,and it's rolling along.
And now you've had, I imaginenow your graduates are starting
to stack up.
Yeah, how do you run it sort ofday to day?
How does the learning takeplace that aspires or literally

(01:00:37):
lives out these principles andcreates such a way in people
that they do have the capacityto connect and to trust and to
find ways to align with life inthat way?

Jenny (01:00:45):
Now, that is not rocket science, but I'll tell you, I've
made it rocket science, whichhas made it confusing.
So let me tell you what I meanby that.
So it's about when healthyadults are embodying what they
hope for, they have somethingdifferent to pass down to others

(01:01:09):
other adults, other youngpeople and then that it becomes
beyond adults.
Like I have a 14, there's a 14year old teenager here.
He and I are writing a grantright now together.
I just saw his little, hisslideshow and his video that he
put together.
I'm like, oh my god, superarticulate.
It's all about building bridgeswith food and creating

(01:01:32):
community and sustainableeconomics.
I'm like, okay, see this inthis.
He's been with us for threeyears, so it's about creating
culture and that is that reallyjust takes community practices
and shared values and, honestly,rites of passage that allow the
community to really develop anddeepen.

(01:01:52):
That's the fundamentalfoundation.
Like, if we could do that for along time, we're fine, but then
you have the pressures of Imean, is that school?
then yeah, exactly, or what'syour transcript going to look
like?
Like what is all of that stuff?
Right?
So that's the stuff I navigate,yeah, exactly doing.

(01:02:22):
What are we even doing?
What is this spring house thing?
Is this legal?
Are we allowed to do?
You know, it was all of that.
We didn't know who we were yetbecause we were just starting
right and as we did that, westuck together.
Relationship was was number one.
That can get a littlecodependent and weird after a
while, where you're like wait,are we all deciding about what

(01:02:43):
kind of toilet paper we're gonnabuy?
Or like Like.
Is that necessary?
Right or it's like I'm going tobring three people with me to
talk about our model, whenreally I could go and talk about
right.
It starts to get a littlecodependent and teenager-y.
I mean almost almost ideological, in that sense, Exactly it gets
a little weird, and so itstarted to get a little weird.

(01:03:03):
You can feel it in the system,and so it started to get a
little weird.
You can feel it in the system.
I could.
And then I, of course, as I do,sought out mentorship to help
me see better what was happeningTo keep learning.
Yeah, my own flaws.
Where was I?
And basically what I realizedwas there was a teenager in me
that was like oh, this is comfycozy, I don't have to stand on

(01:03:24):
my own, I can just stand withthis, my little cohort here, I

(01:03:45):
don't have to stand on my own, Ican just stand with this, my
little, my little cohort here.
And what happened after that?
I would say the past threeyears, maybe four, literally
right now.
Right now, looking as a staffat like, hmm, I think we might
be going in a direction.
That's a reaction to where wewere.

(01:04:06):
I think it was needed and nowwe're going.
Now, wait a minute, have we madethings like when you talk about
the day-to-day schedule, is theday-to-day schedule that
different from what?
If you, the listener, waslooking at our schedule, you'd
be like it doesn't look thatdifferent to me than what most
of us grew up in.
Right, and it doesn't't have toif it doesn't need to.

(01:04:27):
But it's more like we'reputting so much more weight into
the, the curriculum, thestructure.
We're making that the centerand we're we are losing.
There's a little bit, just alittle, and we're all so close

(01:04:48):
to the system.
Probably others wouldn't evennotice, but we do, where we're
like wait what happened?
Where is that time where wewere huddled around the table
together?
Where's that energy?
We were at people's houses.
We were let's not get allcorporate on ourselves here, and
corporate meaning you know umlike a siloed and yeah, and over

(01:05:10):
an organized body, you knowand so now we're awake to that
and now what we do, likeyesterday, how we respond to
that is I put a candle in the.
We meet every single wednesdayfor an hour and a half as a
staff have since almost thebeginning and we dance every
other day I mean every otherWednesday together and we sit

(01:05:35):
around that candle and I justsay let's listen.

(01:05:59):
The collective source is us.
So if you're moved, speak andthen we look at what's said.
Don't get too attached to theschedule, like.
I could tell you all theschedule right now, but I hope
it's different in ways thatbetter serve us.
It's not the point, theschedule.
We have a curriculum.
You can order a book on ourwebsite.
You can order a book that Iwrote about the design.
That's fantastic.

(01:06:19):
I would invite you to come getyour feet on the ground at
Springhouse and I guarantee thatthere is something you will
take with you that's different.
And then, if you want to diveinto it, like over time, that's
where the books and things comeinto play.
But I think it is scary to startsomething new, especially in a

(01:06:41):
field that's so rigidly definedand, I think, put on a pedestal
in a way that lies to our kids,our young adults, where they end
up in college.
Even my own kids are like wait,this is what everyone's calling
the golden key, seriously, youknow, and we're paying 60 grand
for it a year.
I mean, seriously, that'sridiculous.

(01:07:03):
So it's like for us to reallycontinue to listen, for the
courage.
I hope Spring House continueseven more to live in alignment
with its mission.
I think we're just gettingstarted.
I think we are such a strongexample already, but I hope what

(01:07:26):
we've done will give us thecourage to throw into the
crucible, into the fire, what isno longer needed and watch
whatever phoenix arises andfollow that phoenix, because
we're not going to createsomething new out of our old
experiences or even our currentday.
And where is that imaginationgoing to come from?

(01:07:47):
It's going to come from thecreative source within us and
when we hold hands together,when it comes from the
collective source in place overtime.
This is what happens.
Springhouse is what happens andmaybe others can relate to that
.
You know, Spring house is whathappens and maybe others can
relate to that.

AJ (01:08:02):
Yes, I mean being here now.
There are students presentingin the salon Right now on
Economics and the cosmos, whichI just love.
When I heard that, I'm like,yes, we'll be there For that.
And of course, we're lookingout on the land that's budding,
as you said, as we just move.
What are we now?

(01:08:23):
Late February, so moving intospring here, and part of what
you've done here is a landregeneration project as well
with students, and that's been apart of the learning for people
, and we will be back tomorrow.
And then we are going to be atthe Country Store for the Friday
Jamboree the famed jamboree,and then a bit more besides.

(01:08:44):
It is amazing to be here andfeel that energy.
There wasn't a single studentor staff member that passed us
as a family without saying helloand hello to every one of us.
There were little thingsimmediately that exhibited what
you're talking about.
It was quite wonderful.

(01:09:04):
I'm wondering for you, as much.
You know you've talked aboutmentors a bunch of times.
There may be names that come tomind, or perhaps just an ilk or
a general source, but I'mcurious as to the roots you've
delved back into.
Obviously, the Irish stuff waspart of it, but are there others
.
We mentioned the people whowere on this land before, the

(01:09:26):
roots you've delved back into.
Obviously the Irish stuff waspart of it, but are there others
?
We mentioned the people whowere on this land before.
Are they around and included?
What other mentorship and rootsand lineages to this stuff have
you been tapping?

Jenny (01:09:34):
We have connected with the Monacan Nation, who there
are people that still live here.
They helped us craft our land,acknowledgement, which is
fantastic, and also every timewe read it I'm like, okay, I
love this that we're saying thatthrough our consistent
curriculum, we are committed tofacing the oppression and

(01:09:56):
injustices that we live withtoday and we're still on this
land.
So there's still more that wecould be doing in that way.
In terms of when you walk intothe adding our teenagers should
be adding to that wall.

(01:10:27):
That's a staff and board, ourboard of trustees.
We've put elders on that wallthat have inspired us and led us
and guided us, coming from alldifferent kinds of lineage, and
so for me, it's just.
I would not be who I am withoutthe people who have guided me,

(01:10:48):
the elders in my life, startingat 20 years old I mean 20 years
old having a woman who wasreally a therapist, a shaman in
disguise, and working with herfor five years, working with a
Catholic priest, a Jesuit monk,who were awake people, bonsai
tree growers, you know like theywere.
Just John Zay was a Franciscanmonk and took care of bonsais

(01:11:12):
and taught me so much about thelike, accepting the fact that I
am a mystic, that I am in lovewith what woke me up and that
I'm going to feel like a bigweirdo for the rest of my life.
But just get used to it, learn,find others, you know.
And God, people on the dance,melissa Michaels on the dance

(01:11:36):
floor, I mean so so many people.
Ellie Correal through Qigong,and my dear Edith, who is a
current mentor and guide to menow, I mean for 15 years.
I mean every.
You know.
We meet every Friday and talkabout me and what gets in the
way and what doesn't.
And mentoring is a practice thatwe practice.

(01:11:58):
Here Every staff has a peermentor.
I have a peer mentor with thetrustees.
Here, every teen has a mentor.
Mentoring is how we pass downcollective, individual, but also
collective wisdom, collectiveways of being.
So there's things you'll seelike that mentoring dance,

(01:12:19):
singing, studying aboutourselves, having personal
practice time every day,studying about the cultural
context we live in, the power ofpossibility right now through
the cosmos.
Like you'll see, there's awhole undercurrent here that is
very intentional and structured.
What I think we, where I thinkwe are waking up, is that the

(01:12:43):
structure that guides us andinforms us.
It's like a seed.
It doesn't have to look exactly.
It's structured and intentional, but it doesn't have to be like
a almost like a tit for tat.
On the surface, a carrot seeddoes not look like a carrot.
So, as a designer if anyone outthere is a designer it's like

(01:13:05):
you plant the seed.
The alchemical process is whatwe need to allow for, and what I
want to know is, when we plantour curriculum and our design
and then we hold and we listen,what does it want to bring forth
?
Because it's very easy, ashuman beings, to force it.
Well, we study possibility inthis way, and what does that

(01:13:26):
mean?
The alchemical process?
It means creating systems thatallow for the community to
listen to themselves and eachother and make sure that's
representative.
Because if it's not and ithasn't been in places with
teenagers, I mean in places likeSpringhouse have we listened
enough to the teenagers as we'vecreated our days?

(01:13:47):
No, we have not Right, and soit's like.
That's what it means to be.
To allow for the alchemy is toallow for that messiness inside
and inside the collective.

AJ (01:14:00):
This is a particular time in the States that is feeling very
messy to people and, I think,probably across the board.
So those who wanted to see ithappening at a federal political
level like this are going good,but it's still messy and those
who didn't are feeling perhapsmore of the fear and
vulnerability that we talkedabout too, which, on the one

(01:14:22):
hand, I guess could jam peopleup.
On the other hand, with a wholebunch of people it does seem to
be spurring them on.
We're seeing all sorts of civicengagement coming out of the
woodwork in all sorts of numbers, under the surface of what's
happening at that federalgovernment level.
I wonder for you how are youperceiving the ramifications of
what's happening at that federalgovernment level?
I wonder for you, how are youperceiving the ramifications of

(01:14:44):
what's happening right now inthe context of what you're up to
and trying to spread?

Jenny (01:14:49):
It's always about bio, the Irish word for life.
It's always about life.
For me, what are we fightingfor?
What are we actually fightingfor?
Are we fighting for a politicalparty?
Are we fighting for aparticular cause?
Are we fighting for aparticular cause?
All of that is what it is, butfor me it is deeper than that.

(01:15:12):
It includes all of that, butit's deeper than that and
there's a couple things thathave come to me.
One is just in this moment, asyou were talking, I see the face
of my father, who is now dead,john Brady.
He died when I was 31.
So over 20 years ago, yeah, andhe, when he was 14, was run over

(01:15:38):
by a Detroit city bus, nearlylost his life, was told he
couldn't have children, couldn'twalk for three years.
He had his accident, let's see,on September 28th 1960.
I'm his first child and I wasborn on September 28th 1970.
So my dad, when he was run overand God bless him, was in a

(01:16:00):
family system that was, you know, irish alcoholic, god bless.
And he won a huge settlementfrom the city of Detroit of
money at 14.
Imagine, couldn't walk.
So money became the center forhim, money.
He knew he could buy his yellowGTO when he could start to walk

(01:16:20):
and he could drive in and it'dbe like whoa, there's John Brady
in the yellow GTO Right.
So money became, became lifefor him, and how many of us in
our world can relate to that?

AJ (01:16:35):
Money is God in our world, and even in his case it's
understandable in a way.

Jenny (01:16:41):
Right, it's understandable.

AJ (01:16:42):
Right, it was a source of recovery.

Jenny (01:16:43):
We make it the thing Right, and anyone who's
listening is like oh God, youknow that's Pollyanna, whatever.
I am not saying that we don'tneed money.
I am saying that money is notlife.
Money is a resource, and I knowthis because I have faced my
own death and even right now Ihave another form of lymphoma.

(01:17:09):
So it's in my skin, so it'ssupposed to be more manageable.
So they've told me to thinkabout it like diabetes, which,
let me tell you, you know I'mlike great, as long as I can
stay on the planet, as long as Ican continue to eat
strawberries and look in myson's eyes and dance on the
dance floor with the Springhousecommunity and look at these
trees and sing and dance and sitin cars and do podcasts,

(01:17:31):
whatever I need to do, right.
So?
But I can tell you that moneyis not what I think about most
days, and I can also say that Iknow a lot of people do, because
they don't have it Right, andthere's a group of people that
have a lot of it, especially inthis country.
So, so I share this with youbecause when I looked into my

(01:17:55):
dad's eyes when he was dying, Ican tell you that it wasn't
money that, and in fact, to hearmy to hear him say you that it
wasn't money that, and in fact,to hear my to hear him say, you
know, jenny, I probably dranktoo much, I probably worked too
much, um and I smoked too much,he died from lung cancer and um,
he said, is that it?
I said that you know what, dad,that covers it.

(01:18:16):
Um.
So I share that because Ilearned in looking at a dying
man who happened to be my fatherthat it's like, oh shoot, I
kind of missed the boat on thatone, I missed it a little and I
think we're missing it.
When I look at, we areabsolutely following the dollar

(01:18:39):
one way or another right now,following the dollar one way or
another right now, and I justwonder I've gotten this
experience at Springhouse to seewhat happens when you center
life and then you see money as aresource, people as a resource,
physical resources likebuildings and cars and things
and vans, physical resource, theearth is a resource.

(01:19:00):
It's like when you see thatlife is at the center and
there's all these ways to fosterit and serve it, something
different happens.
But so many of us are justtrying to survive, we can't even
get really to that point is Ithink it's no matter which way.

(01:19:29):
It's going to take a realwarrior to return to the power
of life, and that's what I'minterested in is returning to
that power.
I don't live at a time and in aculture that is concerned with
what I'm saying right now.
I don't, and that's okay.
Saying right now, I don't, andthat's okay.
I know I'm not here to save theworld or change the world, but
I am here to live my truth andthat's my truth, and so I can

(01:19:52):
live that anywhere, any whichway.
I'm doing so.
Even when I go into the oncologycenter, I'm orienting around
life, not cancer.
I'm not ignoring cancer, thoughit's like that's why I'm in the
oncology center so.
But I'm saying I'm standing forlife in here because even when
this body dies, I will continueright.

(01:20:14):
And my oncologist, who I love,is like Jenny I have never in my
life met anyone who is sayingwhat you're saying in these
offices.
And that's not because I'mspecial, it's not because I'm
great, it is because I have beenpracticing for 35 years,
practicing staying connected tothat source, through recovering

(01:20:37):
from an addiction, through twocancer diagnoses, through the
death of my father, through manypeople.
I love dying or getting veryhurt from addiction Over and
over.
I could give a lot, right, weall have our stories, but my
orientation is to thismysterious breath of life that I
find great.

(01:20:58):
When you asked about lineage, Ifind great comfort in wisdom
traditions in ancient wisdom.
I don't feel like a weirdo whenI go back.

AJ (01:21:07):
No, it's interesting, isn't it?

Jenny (01:21:08):
I don't feel like a weirdo at all.
I feel very normal.

AJ (01:21:12):
Most of the human journey is consistent with what you're
saying.
Yeah, just not right now.

Jenny (01:21:19):
Exactly Not right now.
Exactly Not right now.
So if I work on just acceptingmyself and accepting my
experience and then create aspace where I can pass this down
, because now it's all aboutlegacy for me, it's about what
am I leaving?
Not so I'm remembered, so thatthe power of life being the
greatest resource we have, thatthat teaching is remembered.

(01:21:42):
I'm part of a long story inthat I'm not alone in that story
.

AJ (01:21:46):
That's beautiful, you know, in a sense, given that my friend
Dana in Baltimore who came here, we met in Guatemala.
I was in Guatemala because Ihad become so sick of the
earning spending cycle just makeenough to get by, and when are
you actually getting to theheart of a calling, or what's

(01:22:07):
worth something in life, ofputting life at the center?
I was so jack of that that Iwent to Guatemala and that was
my journey to get to the heartof it, and it sort of set the
tone from there.
Funny to think that thatresolution is what has led me
here all those years later.
It's been magnificent to speakwith you.

(01:22:28):
I'm so glad to have met and tohave had this conversation and
at the school.
But I never leave theseconversations without talking
about music.
I'd love to know.
I'll put you on the spot, butyou can take your time.
I'd love to know if there'sbeen or is a piece of music
that's been significant in yourlife or just now that you might

(01:22:52):
tell us about.

Jenny (01:22:54):
I can't believe you're asking me that I'm not going to
tell you about it.
I'm going to sing it.
So I'm going to sing the first.
Oh God, mary, mary's my teacher.
I hope I do this justice and Ihope I can fully remember it.
It's an old song and you knowit's so beautiful.
It's called Auren Wincha and itis about basically a woman's

(01:23:18):
dying wishes that she wants herdeath to go in this particular
way, and the story basically isthat it doesn't go that way, but
who knows if she cares becauseshe's gone.
So here's the first verse.

(01:23:40):
It's a long song, so I belongmost here in a lot in like the
deepest it's all the people, allthe family, all of that in the
land, of course, but this is anolder thread than that.
That holds me close.

AJ (01:23:58):
Thank you, my goodness.
You want to keep going?
Have me back.

(01:24:54):
Thanks so much, Jenny.

Jenny (01:24:55):
Thank you, what a blessing.
Thanks.

AJ (01:25:01):
That was Jenny Finn, founder and ED of Springhouse Community
School.
Thanks also to DevelopmentDirector Carolyn Reilly for such
a warm welcome, to MediaDirector Sarah Pollock for the
wonderful guided experiments inthe print shop, to West Aussie
student Zephr for her shiningpresence and to her old man too,
notwithstanding misguided Hawksfooty club allegiances.

(01:25:24):
To Gigi and H for having Y andus adults in their classes and
to old friend and podcastsubscriber Dana Scott for
connecting us all.
I've put a bunch of photos onthe website and, of course,
various links in the show notes.
As usual, I'll have more forpaid subscribers on Patreon and
Substack soon, and great thanksfor making it all possible.

(01:25:44):
You can join this generouscommunity of listeners by
heading to the website or theshow notes and following the
prompts.
Thank you so very much.
The music you're hearing isRegeneration by Amelia Barden.
My name's Anthony James.
Thanks for listening, thank you.

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Springhouse: How a voice saved my life & inspired a school, with founder Jenny Finn

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