March 26, 2025 • 41 mins
Last week's episode featured a special on-location recording with the land whisperer, Patrick MacManaway. It has been played more than most in its first week, but given it was a little over two and a half hours in length, I also wanted to offer it in distinct parts, for those of you who prefer to listen to it that way.
Perhaps 40 minutes or so fits into your usual listening window better, or maybe that length will just give you time to digest the conversation. If you've already listened to the whole thing (thank you!), maybe this will make it easier to revisit certain parts. As always, feel free to let me know.
This is Part 1 then, from my intro through to when we head to the stone circle. We start in Patrick's garden, before jumping in the car. Roadworks sent us in all kinds of directions, so we got some time to talk about how this Scot ended up in Vermont, how he came to be doing what he's doing, and what that is exactly. There are some profound ancestral connections, including the growing legend around his father's healing hands on the battle field. And others that led to us meeting on this day.
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Music:
Hours, by Patrick Sebag (from Artlist).
Stones & Bones, by Owls of the Swamp.
The RegenNarration playlist (music chosen by my guests).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Patrick (00:00):
So that's what I was doing was I was having a good
hard think.
However, what's clear from whathappened then is the plants
understood me.
Even though it was an internalthought, they telepathically
received the message.
Secondly, they understood itand had capacity to change
(00:20):
themselves, change themselvesand, thirdly, they change
themselves at my request, forour convenience, to support the
people living in that landscape.
And those three things puttogether.
Frankly, first few times ithappened to me, it was so
mind-blowing I really prettymuch went to bed for three days
(00:40):
until the world reorganizeditself.
AJ (01:12):
You might remember a previous guest on this podcast
by the name of Terry McCosker.
Terry co-founded anorganisation called RCS
Australia some 35 years ago.
Called RCS Australia some 35years ago.
Fellow Australian legend andalso a guest and dear friend of
this podcast is best-sellingauthor of Call of the Reed
Warbler, charles Massy.
In that book he wrote when Ilook back over the rise of
(01:37):
regenerative agriculture inAustralia, I see at the
forefront Terry and Pam McCoskerand their RCS organisation.
Today it remains a world leaderin the field.
In light of that, I titled theepisode with Terry Behind the
Greatest RegenerativeAgriculture Movement in
Australia.
Well, as I got to know Terrybetter over the years, I started
(01:59):
to hear more and more about abloke named Patrick MacManaway,
who Terry had been working withsince 2010.
And Charles later shared withme his missing chapter from Reed
Warbler, the one deemed alittle too edgy to include at
the time.
Patrick features significantlyin that chapter, along with some
now famous stories of hisfather.
(02:20):
So as the years went by, Ibecame increasingly interested
in learning about the manalongside the man behind the
movement, all the more knowingthat Patrick's extraordinary
influence is far from limited toAustralia.
Born in Scotland to pioneeringparents.
When Patrick realised he sharedhis father's gifts, he also
(02:43):
shared his medical trainingbefore his calling deepened and
spread around the UK on to NorthAmerica and beyond.
G'day Anthony James.
Here for The RegenNarration,your independent,
listener-supported portal intothe regenerative era.
With thanks to generouslisteners like Mark kowald, dave
(03:05):
godden and steven at urbangreen space.
Thanks, men, for being paidsubscribers for over three years
now, making all this possible.
If you're not yet part of thisgreat community supporting
listeners, I'd love you to joinus.
Get benefits if you like andhelp keep the show on the road.
Just follow the links in theshow notes.
As always, with my enormousgratitude, I caught up with
(03:29):
Patrick at his home nearBurlington, vermont, in the fall
last year.
Yep, this unique episode calledfor some time sifting through
the hours of material wegathered in one long sunny day
together.
We start in Patrick's gardenjourney to a couple of locations
where Patrick has worked a farmto table restaurant that
(03:52):
replaced McDonald's.
Then we're full circle back tothe garden for a few more of
Patrick's most memorable storiesand news of his next endeavour,
recently launched with TerryMcCosker, before he takes us out
with a little tune.
G'day Patrick.
AJ pleasure to meet you.
Pleasure to meet you.
(04:12):
Thanks for having us at yourhouse.
Thank you so much for makingthe journey here to northern
Vermont and here we are, outback of your place.
So I gather this is your block,but there's no sort of fences
between neighbours and stuffaround here.
Patrick (04:24):
eh, the Americans have quite an open plan approach to
their yards and gardens.
I've found, I've noticed In.
AJ (04:33):
Europe we make sure we've got fences around.
Often Australia too, thoughSome are bringing them down
deliberately.
You know to just well not feellike you're imprisoning yourself
as much as anything, as much aswildlife or anything else,
there's always the matter ofrabbits and groundhogs and
vegetables.
Patrick (04:51):
But no, we define the edge with trees and flowers, and
where you stop mowing is aboutthe edge of it, that's cool.
AJ (05:02):
So we're looking at a little gathering circle around fire.
I imagine you might use this alittle.
Patrick (05:08):
We do, either for family cookouts or, sometimes,
gatherings with a moreparticular focus.
There's a men's group thatmeets here every couple of weeks
and likes to light a fire andthen visiting dignitaries such
as yourself being entertainedVery good.
AJ (05:30):
Yeah, is gardening.
Do you manage to get veryhands-on given your schedule?
Patrick (05:37):
No and, as you can see, there's hours of weeding
waiting to be done, so I'mhoping you guys are going to
give me a hand pulling weedslater on this afternoon.
AJ (05:48):
A 10-year-old doesn't mind getting put to work, thankfully.
Patrick (05:52):
No, but it's just a pleasure.
I travel too much to keep ontop of it.
AJ (05:56):
Has that been a dilemma for you?
I'm curious in terms of howmuch you get to embody your
accrued knowledge and wisdomover time versus taking, let's
just say, a global approach andhelping others.
Has that been a tension for you?
Have you sort of longed attimes to be more grounded in
your place, or this is well andtruly your calling?
Patrick (06:19):
Yes and yes, both AJ.
I'm very much a homebody and Ihate to leave wherever I am.
AJ (06:27):
Is that?
Patrick (06:27):
right, but circumstances of my work and
profession have required me togo a lot where people are
obviously working on places.
I mean not entirely.
I can and do do a lot of worklong distance using maps and
(06:47):
photographs, google Earth, andso forth now has revolutionized
that Don't have to work off ofpaper maps anymore.
So quite a lot of my clients infact I can serve without a
physical on-site visit.
But historically and still bypreference, a physical on-site
visit but historically and stillby preference, um, being in
(07:09):
location, meeting the clients,seeing and feeling what the
concerns are, is preferable.
So yeah, it is a bit of a lifeon the road, um and but uh, I
grew up in scotland and Ivisited vermont here in 1984
first, so in a way I'm alwayscoming home when I travel.
Either way Either way, and thenAustralia has just been such a
(07:32):
pleasure since 2010, when TerryMcCosker and RCS included my
work in their programming.
How did that encounter comeabout in their programming?
How did that encounter comeabout?
So I was brought in as one oftheir international speakers for
their 2010 20th anniversaryconference there you go.
AJ (07:56):
So we were just talking about their 30th that, due to
COVID, you missed and so wedidn't meet there Right, but a
pivotal moment then was their20th for you.
Patrick (08:04):
Their 20th was my introduction both to Australia
and RCS, and Marg Bridgeford atthe time was CEO and, with help
from Peter Downey who wasbringing resonant kinesiology
into the RCS community, theytracked me down.
At the time I was president ofthe British Society of Dowsers.
AJ (08:27):
Because they'd been running courses along these lines.
As I understand it, for abouteight years prior, I think
they'd been running the quantumagriculture umbrella stuff, the
quantum started with me, did itRight, ok, under that branding.
Patrick (08:45):
But I think they'd had presentations from different
dowsers.
Alana Moore is a verywell-known and well-published
practitioner of this stuff.
She now lives in Europe.
She's Australian by birth andshe'd given presentations and
(09:06):
they had a couple of otherpeople also do that.
And then they got very muchinto the human health based
resonant kinesiology work andknew there was a bridge but
wanted somebody to create aprogram of specifically the
subtle energy inside ofagricultural context was how I
(09:31):
got my invite and subsequentlythey kept on bringing me back.
AJ (09:39):
That's very interesting, considering your path, where the
human health bridged out to theland.
Let's come back to that.
I'm almost sorry to leave thisbecause I have felt a lovely
vibe here, as, with the sounds,and notwithstanding the trains
and the cars and other things,there's this beautiful little
(10:00):
hum of life where we stand.
But we've got a couple ofdestinations to hit up that are
relevant to the story too.
So shall we do it Lovely so Isee your car of choice is an
Equinox.
Was that deliberate Destiny?
Patrick (10:23):
Yeah, that was the last car.
It got long in the tooth andexpensive so I gave it to David
and now it's waiting for morerepair.
This was Heather's dad's car.
He went into a nursing home andthis was in the family.
AJ (10:44):
So you're picking up the story with your arrival in
Vermont?
What brought you to Vermont inthe first place, those nearly
40,.
Well, I guess yeah, 40 yearsago 1984 was the first visit.
Patrick (10:58):
So very simple, aj.
The American Society ofDazzlers is based here in
Vermont, is based here inVermont and dowsing was a
central practice in my family'swork, mostly using it for Well,
(11:19):
using it really for everything,from figuring out if the bread
was ready to come out of theoven, or which was the best
horse or car to buy, or routesor timing or planning.
So dowsing was very central tothe families, just life and
process.
But in a professional contextthey used it for diagnostic
(11:44):
assessment and therapeuticprotocols, because that had been
in a centre for such things.
AJ (11:54):
What was it called?
Patrick (11:55):
again, your family practice yes, my parents set up
the West Bank Healing andTeaching Centre in 1959 on a
little farm in rural Scotland.
At the time it was very unusual, because of the legacy of the
(12:16):
witchcraft laws, to bepractising mediumship,
divination and spiritual healingoutside of the ordained.
AJ (12:30):
And it had been illegal then .
Patrick (12:33):
It had been illegal under the witchcraft laws, and
then that changed, I think in1952.
We got the Fraudulent MediumsAct, which finally allowed us to
be mediumistic and intuitive aslong as we weren't fraudulent,
which seems like a very good andsensible piece of legislation,
(12:55):
that's very interesting.
AJ (12:57):
Our young fellow of course asked you what's witchcraft at
the table just before when a bitof this came up.
But I might run with the samequestion for people who only
know in a sense the stereotypesor the legacy of that period.
Patrick (13:11):
Yes, Well, I think the big picture is I think probably
for 99.9% of our history, allaround the world we've
effectively been what we mightcall animist, effectively been
what we might call animist, andthere's been very much an
(13:31):
awareness of the intelligencenot only of our own ancestral
community of spirit but also ofthe spirits of place, the genius
loci for the Greeks, theparticular quality of
intelligence of rock andmountain and stream and soil,
(13:56):
and whether we're looking athunting-gathering communities or
whether we're looking atagricultural communities, the
communication with the governingintelligence of landscape has
always been primary for survival.
In Scotland back in the day,the Celtic kings of whom Macbeth
(14:21):
was one those were really notso much positions of arbitrary
executive authority.
The kingship was electedtypically by women and chosen
(14:45):
from senior sages and druids,and their job was of an
ambassadorial nature.
So equinoxes, solstices,cross-quarter days, times of
significant transition andchange in the landscape, moving
(15:06):
between spring and autumn,winter and so forth, whoever was
on the job, the King ofScotland would have to go up to
the central sacred mountain,shehalion, the hall of the Queen
of the shee.
The shee are the landscapeintelligences.
(15:28):
We would call them fairy, butthey're not petite tinkerbell,
they're sort of 45, 40 foot high, shining beings and a bit
intimidating when you encounterthem.
(16:12):
No-transcript, but his job wasto communicate with this
overarching landscapeintelligence and literally come
down the mountain, sort ofMoses-style, with a script of
how many deer could be taken andhow many fish could be taken
and what the planting andharvesting dates would be.
(16:34):
Because back in the day wedidn't have google, we didn't
have almanacs, we didn't havelibrary, we really didn't have
any written historical record,so your only source of
information was anticipation andexperience, and so they really
(16:57):
did want to know what theirgrandparents and
great-grandparents had done lasttime they had a flood like this
or a frost like this or a plantillness like this, and so their
only strategy was tocommunicate with tribal
ancestors and the spirits ofplace, to follow in accord and
(17:20):
guidance so that the wells wouldbe full and the cattle would be
fat and, as they say here inAmerica, all the women would be
strong and the men good-lookingand the children above average.
AJ (17:35):
You know you made the Moses allusion before.
Patrick (17:39):
It is striking that these archetypes of mythology
recur across cultures and whenyou think about relying on your
ancestry for knowledge, the waysthat's been left behind in some
cultures my culture, ourculture, maybe modern Western
(18:02):
enlightenment culture thatthat's been left behind but that
it was a universal experienceand remains well yeah, in our
ancestry, if not in our DNA, itis and because of being raised
in a space where that wasordinary, my sort of go-to
(18:28):
support team includes CompanionAngels and Mum and Dad variously
, and also a number of otherfriends and colleagues, as well
as Genetic Linear Ancestry,genetic linear ancestry who are
available to help and help outin all manner of what we would
(18:52):
consider miraculous ways becausethey're for us non-linear,
non-logical.
But to not be including yourfriends in high places on your
power team is seriously missinga trick.
AJ (19:12):
That, I think, is dawning on many more of us.
It might be worth saying evenwe're in the car, so we're
passing a university I'm toldit's a university town and we're
passing.
Patrick (19:21):
City University.
This is it.
This is the University ofVermont.
Very gracious and elegantbuildings here at the top of the
hill.
AJ (19:27):
Yeah, and awash with activity, because it may even be
the first day of semester.
Patrick (19:33):
Very close to it.
I think they went back on acouple of days ago.
Okay, yes, so we're full ofeager and well-intentioned young
learners here.
AJ (19:46):
You get a glimpse of the hope of youth darting about the
Knowledge Centre as we have it.
And yeah, on a lovely sunny dayand, yeah, a bit of traffic,
we're stuck in, but it gives ustime to talk.
So maybe it's a good junctureto follow that thread through
some ancestry and go back alittle further and how.
(20:08):
This was how this did become anormal part of your life.
Where did it start?
Patrick (20:15):
in your family, In my family.
I can't quite trace it back, AJ.
What I know is my Irishgrandmother was deeply into it,
but at this point both myparents as well as grandparents,
have passed.
So I now would really like tosit down and have a good old
(20:35):
chat and find where did thatcome from in her life?
Was it an unbroken traditionrunning in a female lineage, or
was she particularly gifted orcurious as an result?
But certainly she was part ofwhat's now the White Eagle Lodge
(21:04):
, which is a society ofspiritual enlightenment and
healing that still continues tothis day and formed in the early
part of the 1900s around amedium called Grace Cook, and
she apparently had connectionwith a Native American old soul
(21:27):
who went by the name of WhiteEagle, hence the White Eagle
Lodge.
And there was a huge amount ofspiritualism being practiced in
the late 1800s and early 1900sillegal technically in Britain
under witchcraft laws, but veryopen here in the US.
(21:49):
Illegal technically in Britainunder witchcraft laws, but very
open here in the US, with a lotof summer camps for
spiritualists.
And that was a thing you wentand did you know for your summer
holiday was camp by a lake witha bunch of other spiritualists
and talked to all your friendsand family in spirit.
(22:15):
So in my family was it was justa given, and my father went off
as a 19-year-old with theBritish Expeditionary Force at
the beginning of the war inEurope in 1939 and found himself
(22:37):
fighting rearguard defencearound the perimeter of Dunkirk
while troops were evacuated fromthe beaches, and at that point
he was spontaneously moved.
While troops were evacuatedfrom the beaches, and at that
point he was spontaneously moved, put his hand on wounded
(22:57):
comrades.
They had no opportunity formedical supplies or medical
evacuation, so he just put hishands on people and, to his
amazement, was able to stopbleeding and give pain relief
and indeed keep people alive.
The main killer, I think, isbattlefield shock from trauma
(23:20):
and blood loss in thosecircumstances.
So he was completely amazedthat sure enough, just like it
says on the box, we've all got agift of healing and when
circumstances arise to call itout, then it's there.
But he was still surprised.
(23:43):
I think it was amazing.
He'd obviously grown up withthose concepts, yes, but perhaps
in a more sort of abstract andsort of sitting room
conversation fashion, ratherthan in the raw heat of the
(24:04):
moment when nothing else wouldwould work and only that could
serve.
So he then cultivated for thenext 20 years through training
and apprenticeships withdifferent psychics and healers,
(24:24):
I think most notably a gentlemancalled Harry Edwards, who was
(24:46):
preeminent spiritual healer inthe first half of the psychic
ability in a militarycircumstance.
That was found very helpful ina number of situations during
(25:12):
campaigns, I know, across NorthAfrica.
They had nightly seancesamongst the officers to help
them establish enemy trooppositions and numbers in the
absence of satellite or otheraerial reconnaissance.
He was involved in studieswhere they doused the noon
(25:38):
position of naval warships atsea to check on the accuracy of
that.
There were studies of that,mm-hmm.
Yeah, apparently they wereabsolutely dead accurate.
You could find a designatedwarship at sea wherever it was
(26:00):
and then quietly the use ofdowsing to find and then
subsequently disable landminesdowsing to find and then
subsequently disable landminesand I know that those were
things that he was personallyinvolved in and I know the sort
of extent of military uses ofboth dowsing and psychic
(26:21):
practices are extensive,although often quite quietly
done.
Yeah, but use of remote viewingwas big, I think for a while,
and so he was in the army for 20years.
He was a military brat.
His dad had been a careerofficer and he'd been all the
(26:45):
way through military collegefrom, I think, age 8, eight
until 19.
AJ (26:49):
So it was his life and his his milieu but conversely then
not yours, because by then thecenter was up and running and I
grew up with it.
Patrick (26:59):
Yes, no, it was.
It was um gurus for breakfastand lamas for lunch, because it
was the first of its day.
And so people came from Tibetand America and Scandinavia to
visit and study and they ranconferences and workshops and
(27:23):
took apprentices.
We had up to eight full-timelive-in apprentices for a while
um, marvelous, as you canimagine.
AJ (27:33):
Fascinating kitchen table chats so these are your very
young years, then, that yourecall like this that was my
growing up.
Patrick (27:43):
Yeah, as far as I knew that was normal.
AJ (27:45):
Yeah, well, when did you recognise that you were indeed
carrying this ability as well?
Patrick (27:54):
I grew up fascinated by it and immersed in it and,
frankly, very much hoped that Icould do it too.
As you would I can well imagine, and my plan was to join the
family's business and wecertainly learned skills and
(28:17):
worked on each other and animalsand so on, just growing up.
But honestly, until one'sreally in a situation of applied
need, then that's when you getto see whether the thing really
(28:37):
works nicely or not.
AJ (28:39):
When did that come for you?
Patrick (28:42):
So I was encouraged to take a degree in medicine before
going into the holistictherapies field, partly for
training, partly for subsequentissues of licensing and
insurance and so on.
So I went through medicalschool and got my basic medical
(29:08):
license and then at that point Itook a year out to really focus
on what part of the field wasmost interesting to me.
And I was really fascinated byenvironmental health and working
with places and the effectsthat those had on the people
(29:32):
living there.
And at the time the WorldHealth Organization had released
statistics declaring that 30%of our buildings were sick
buildings, based on a criteriaof 20% or more of the occupants
having health or comfortproblems arising directly from
the location.
(29:53):
And there's seven or eightthings on that list, including
air quality, light quality,sound quality.
But studies from Germany in the1920s and 70s done by Dowsers
had shown a very strongcorrelation with human health,
(30:20):
and something called geopathicstress arises when something
natural to the site is stressfulfor health, the most classic of
which is water running inunderground streams or faults or
(30:44):
fractures and fissures.
And because water is the mostelectrically conductive material
in the landscape over a strongunderground stream, the Earth's
natural geomagnetic fieldexpresses itself in a slightly
more exaggerated and sometimesaggressive way.
(31:06):
But also it acts as a pathwayfor atmospheric electromagnetism
going to ground.
So for hundreds, probablythousands of years we'd known to
avoid sleeping or building ourhouses or putting our animals
(31:33):
close, confined in locationswhere underground water was
there.
A study in 1928 by a Bavariandowser called Baron Gustav Freer
von Pol.
He dowsed for people, for wells, but in the process of walking
(31:59):
the landscape to see where thewater runs, he observed several
things.
He observed that mammals andbirds avoided sleeping over them
or nesting over them entirely,and you'd have birds' nests in
an overhanging eave, one in eachrafter, and then a gap where
there was no nest, and then itwould pick up again and the
dowsing rods showed indeed thatthere was an underground stream
(32:22):
just cutting under that location.
So mammals avoided them, birdsavoided them, but insects very
attracted to them, and ants andbees and wasps would selectively
and deliberately nest over them.
So he observed this speciespreference and also observed the
(32:45):
same in plants.
Some plants were very adverselyaffected, especially fruit
trees and vegetables that cameto a head above ground, brussels
sprouts, kohlrabi, things ofthat nature, whereas some of our
medicinal plants really thrived.
So this was a curiosity and hedid a study in a town called
(33:11):
Vilsberg, on a tributary of theRhine.
At the time had three and ahalf thousand people and he'd
previously doused municipalwells for them and asked if he
could do a health related study.
So with various German burgershe went around the whole town
and mapped out where all thewater ran and specifically if
(33:38):
and when it ran under people'shouses and then especially if it
ran under their beds they'd rununder their beds.
And then they compared thatstudy with the available records
of death by cancer, which wentback to 1918.
(34:01):
This was 28, so they had 10years still of statistics and
they found that every single oneof 52 people who had been
documented as dying of acancerous illness had been
sleeping over one of theseunderground streams.
So that was a real awakener forme as somebody interested in
(34:26):
health and particularlyinterested in being outdoors and
the environmental aspects.
I'd just say in terms of thatstudy it was 1928, before we had
all the carcinogens that we nowhave in our environment and
diet, so it was possibly a studythat would be hard to replicate
(34:48):
now in terms of isolatingcauses, and we also don't know
from the study how many peoplewere sleeping over underground
streams and didn't die fromcancer.
So it's not a complete medicalstudy in that way, but a 100%
association of if you want todie by cancer then you need to
(35:10):
find yourself anenvironmentalgeopathic stress
was certainly, in my mind, worthexploring and sat very
beautifully in the space ofnatural health, dazzing and
medicine.
So it was a bit ideal for me.
(35:34):
I wanna go down.
I don't know if we're gonna beallowed to.
Doesn't look, doesn't look verygood.
It blocked us.
There we go.
They blocked us there we go so,progressing that theme of human
(35:54):
health in environmental contextand starting to work with people
whose health was being affectedadversely by their homes,
people whose health was beingaffected adversely by their
homes.
I got to build up quite a lotof experience with what sort of
patterns fitted, what kind ofillnesses and what the mix of
(36:20):
influences were.
So air, sound and light.
So air, sound and light.
But beyond that, then, thepresence or absence of this
physical geopathic stress wassignificant.
But also, I found of hugesignificance the presence or
(36:43):
absence of residual energies, ofhuman thoughts and feelings,
very colouring of the atmosphere, with or without the presence
(37:05):
of earthbound spirits have beenput onto a place with malevolent
intention and then, as you getdeeper into it, literally
whether the spirit of placerecognizes its current identity
(37:29):
and use and the intentions ofthe people living there.
Because if a place is fullyappraised of what the people are
up to, the natural inclinationis, to the extent that it can,
to support us, whether that's ingrowing the best field of
(37:50):
carrots, or having the mostdelightful restaurant experience
, or commercial, domestic,agricultural, once the elemental
consciousness is clearly, isclear and without residual
(38:13):
stresses and traumas, and thenhas clear communication as to
what the people are up to, thenyou've really got a sort of
working team, a marriage betweenpeople in place.
Because our mind spans at leastfour octaves of consciousness.
(38:33):
The so-called beta, alpha,theta and delta bands from 36
waves per second down to zero,and beta is our cognitive linear
frequency set, and then belowthat, alpha is where plants and
(39:00):
animals basically are havingtheir communications, and then
below that, theta is where theelemental realm has its, its
cognitive consciousness.
So we embrace all of those.
(39:20):
Our Western mind has beentrained into rational linear
consciousness exclusively, andso we can miss out on all of the
so, particularly for anelemental.
They're aware of the presenceof a human mind, but they can't
(39:42):
read our mind if we're in beta.
So it's like being a diverunderwater looking up at the
shadow of a boat on the surface.
Is it a fishing boat?
Is it a warship?
Is it?
kids out for a picnic?
Don't know.
We know that they're there, butunless they bridge into that
elemental theta consciousness,they can't perceive our
(40:07):
intention.
And so what we look to do isidentify, communicate with and
create cooperative agreements,basically with those
intelligences of place.
And it's a slightly differentconversation whether it's a farm
or a shopping mall orsomebody's home, but it's
(40:28):
effectively the sameconversation.
It's it's just a conversationof communication and agreement,
and we start by healing anyhurts that are present in the
landscape and then we get intocommunications and then, as
required, we can optimize withsound or homeopathy or
(40:48):
biodynamics or radionics, etc.
Stone circles such as the onewe're about to see, to really
fine-tune like a musicalinstrument so that the harmonics
of the space are optimum forits currently dedicated use and
(41:09):
purpose.
AJ (41:11):
Perfect segue.
Let's go to the stone circle.
So that's what I was doing was I was having a good
hard think.
However, what's clear from whathappened then is the plants
understood me.
Even though it was an internalthought, they telepathically
received the message.
Secondly, they understood itand had capacity to change
(00:20):
themselves, change themselvesand, thirdly, they change
themselves at my request, forour convenience, to support the
people living in that landscape.
And those three things puttogether.
Frankly, first few times ithappened to me, it was so
mind-blowing I really prettymuch went to bed for three days
(00:40):
until the world reorganizeditself.
AJ (01:12):
You might remember a previous guest on this podcast
by the name of Terry McCosker.
Terry co-founded anorganisation called RCS
Australia some 35 years ago.
Called RCS Australia some 35years ago.
Fellow Australian legend andalso a guest and dear friend of
this podcast is best-sellingauthor of Call of the Reed
Warbler, charles Massy.
In that book he wrote when Ilook back over the rise of
(01:37):
regenerative agriculture inAustralia, I see at the
forefront Terry and Pam McCoskerand their RCS organisation.
Today it remains a world leaderin the field.
In light of that, I titled theepisode with Terry Behind the
Greatest RegenerativeAgriculture Movement in
Australia.
Well, as I got to know Terrybetter over the years, I started
(01:59):
to hear more and more about abloke named Patrick MacManaway,
who Terry had been working withsince 2010.
And Charles later shared withme his missing chapter from Reed
Warbler, the one deemed alittle too edgy to include at
the time.
Patrick features significantlyin that chapter, along with some
now famous stories of hisfather.
(02:20):
So as the years went by, Ibecame increasingly interested
in learning about the manalongside the man behind the
movement, all the more knowingthat Patrick's extraordinary
influence is far from limited toAustralia.
Born in Scotland to pioneeringparents.
When Patrick realised he sharedhis father's gifts, he also
(02:43):
shared his medical trainingbefore his calling deepened and
spread around the UK on to NorthAmerica and beyond.
G'day Anthony James.
Here for The RegenNarration,your independent,
listener-supported portal intothe regenerative era.
With thanks to generouslisteners like Mark kowald, dave
(03:05):
godden and steven at urbangreen space.
Thanks, men, for being paidsubscribers for over three years
now, making all this possible.
If you're not yet part of thisgreat community supporting
listeners, I'd love you to joinus.
Get benefits if you like andhelp keep the show on the road.
Just follow the links in theshow notes.
As always, with my enormousgratitude, I caught up with
(03:29):
Patrick at his home nearBurlington, vermont, in the fall
last year.
Yep, this unique episode calledfor some time sifting through
the hours of material wegathered in one long sunny day
together.
We start in Patrick's gardenjourney to a couple of locations
where Patrick has worked a farmto table restaurant that
(03:52):
replaced McDonald's.
Then we're full circle back tothe garden for a few more of
Patrick's most memorable storiesand news of his next endeavour,
recently launched with TerryMcCosker, before he takes us out
with a little tune.
G'day Patrick.
AJ pleasure to meet you.
Pleasure to meet you.
(04:12):
Thanks for having us at yourhouse.
Thank you so much for makingthe journey here to northern
Vermont and here we are, outback of your place.
So I gather this is your block,but there's no sort of fences
between neighbours and stuffaround here.
Patrick (04:24):
eh, the Americans have quite an open plan approach to
their yards and gardens.
I've found, I've noticed In.
AJ (04:33):
Europe we make sure we've got fences around.
Often Australia too, thoughSome are bringing them down
deliberately.
You know to just well not feellike you're imprisoning yourself
as much as anything, as much aswildlife or anything else,
there's always the matter ofrabbits and groundhogs and
vegetables.
Patrick (04:51):
But no, we define the edge with trees and flowers, and
where you stop mowing is aboutthe edge of it, that's cool.
AJ (05:02):
So we're looking at a little gathering circle around fire.
I imagine you might use this alittle.
Patrick (05:08):
We do, either for family cookouts or, sometimes,
gatherings with a moreparticular focus.
There's a men's group thatmeets here every couple of weeks
and likes to light a fire andthen visiting dignitaries such
as yourself being entertainedVery good.
AJ (05:30):
Yeah, is gardening.
Do you manage to get veryhands-on given your schedule?
Patrick (05:37):
No and, as you can see, there's hours of weeding
waiting to be done, so I'mhoping you guys are going to
give me a hand pulling weedslater on this afternoon.
AJ (05:48):
A 10-year-old doesn't mind getting put to work, thankfully.
Patrick (05:52):
No, but it's just a pleasure.
I travel too much to keep ontop of it.
AJ (05:56):
Has that been a dilemma for you?
I'm curious in terms of howmuch you get to embody your
accrued knowledge and wisdomover time versus taking, let's
just say, a global approach andhelping others.
Has that been a tension for you?
Have you sort of longed attimes to be more grounded in
your place, or this is well andtruly your calling?
Patrick (06:19):
Yes and yes, both AJ.
I'm very much a homebody and Ihate to leave wherever I am.
AJ (06:27):
Is that?
Patrick (06:27):
right, but circumstances of my work and
profession have required me togo a lot where people are
obviously working on places.
I mean not entirely.
I can and do do a lot of worklong distance using maps and
(06:47):
photographs, google Earth, andso forth now has revolutionized
that Don't have to work off ofpaper maps anymore.
So quite a lot of my clients infact I can serve without a
physical on-site visit.
But historically and still bypreference, a physical on-site
visit but historically and stillby preference, um, being in
(07:09):
location, meeting the clients,seeing and feeling what the
concerns are, is preferable.
So yeah, it is a bit of a lifeon the road, um and but uh, I
grew up in scotland and Ivisited vermont here in 1984
first, so in a way I'm alwayscoming home when I travel.
Either way Either way, and thenAustralia has just been such a
(07:32):
pleasure since 2010, when TerryMcCosker and RCS included my
work in their programming.
How did that encounter comeabout in their programming?
How did that encounter comeabout?
So I was brought in as one oftheir international speakers for
their 2010 20th anniversaryconference there you go.
AJ (07:56):
So we were just talking about their 30th that, due to
COVID, you missed and so wedidn't meet there Right, but a
pivotal moment then was their20th for you.
Patrick (08:04):
Their 20th was my introduction both to Australia
and RCS, and Marg Bridgeford atthe time was CEO and, with help
from Peter Downey who wasbringing resonant kinesiology
into the RCS community, theytracked me down.
At the time I was president ofthe British Society of Dowsers.
AJ (08:27):
Because they'd been running courses along these lines.
As I understand it, for abouteight years prior, I think
they'd been running the quantumagriculture umbrella stuff, the
quantum started with me, did itRight, ok, under that branding.
Patrick (08:45):
But I think they'd had presentations from different
dowsers.
Alana Moore is a verywell-known and well-published
practitioner of this stuff.
She now lives in Europe.
She's Australian by birth andshe'd given presentations and
(09:06):
they had a couple of otherpeople also do that.
And then they got very muchinto the human health based
resonant kinesiology work andknew there was a bridge but
wanted somebody to create aprogram of specifically the
subtle energy inside ofagricultural context was how I
(09:31):
got my invite and subsequentlythey kept on bringing me back.
AJ (09:39):
That's very interesting, considering your path, where the
human health bridged out to theland.
Let's come back to that.
I'm almost sorry to leave thisbecause I have felt a lovely
vibe here, as, with the sounds,and notwithstanding the trains
and the cars and other things,there's this beautiful little
(10:00):
hum of life where we stand.
But we've got a couple ofdestinations to hit up that are
relevant to the story too.
So shall we do it Lovely so Isee your car of choice is an
Equinox.
Was that deliberate Destiny?
Patrick (10:23):
Yeah, that was the last car.
It got long in the tooth andexpensive so I gave it to David
and now it's waiting for morerepair.
This was Heather's dad's car.
He went into a nursing home andthis was in the family.
AJ (10:44):
So you're picking up the story with your arrival in
Vermont?
What brought you to Vermont inthe first place, those nearly
40,.
Well, I guess yeah, 40 yearsago 1984 was the first visit.
Patrick (10:58):
So very simple, aj.
The American Society ofDazzlers is based here in
Vermont, is based here inVermont and dowsing was a
central practice in my family'swork, mostly using it for Well,
(11:19):
using it really for everything,from figuring out if the bread
was ready to come out of theoven, or which was the best
horse or car to buy, or routesor timing or planning.
So dowsing was very central tothe families, just life and
process.
But in a professional contextthey used it for diagnostic
(11:44):
assessment and therapeuticprotocols, because that had been
in a centre for such things.
AJ (11:54):
What was it called?
Patrick (11:55):
again, your family practice yes, my parents set up
the West Bank Healing andTeaching Centre in 1959 on a
little farm in rural Scotland.
At the time it was very unusual, because of the legacy of the
(12:16):
witchcraft laws, to bepractising mediumship,
divination and spiritual healingoutside of the ordained.
AJ (12:30):
And it had been illegal then .
Patrick (12:33):
It had been illegal under the witchcraft laws, and
then that changed, I think in1952.
We got the Fraudulent MediumsAct, which finally allowed us to
be mediumistic and intuitive aslong as we weren't fraudulent,
which seems like a very good andsensible piece of legislation,
(12:55):
that's very interesting.
AJ (12:57):
Our young fellow of course asked you what's witchcraft at
the table just before when a bitof this came up.
But I might run with the samequestion for people who only
know in a sense the stereotypesor the legacy of that period.
Patrick (13:11):
Yes, Well, I think the big picture is I think probably
for 99.9% of our history, allaround the world we've
effectively been what we mightcall animist, effectively been
what we might call animist, andthere's been very much an
(13:31):
awareness of the intelligencenot only of our own ancestral
community of spirit but also ofthe spirits of place, the genius
loci for the Greeks, theparticular quality of
intelligence of rock andmountain and stream and soil,
(13:56):
and whether we're looking athunting-gathering communities or
whether we're looking atagricultural communities, the
communication with the governingintelligence of landscape has
always been primary for survival.
In Scotland back in the day,the Celtic kings of whom Macbeth
(14:21):
was one those were really notso much positions of arbitrary
executive authority.
The kingship was electedtypically by women and chosen
(14:45):
from senior sages and druids,and their job was of an
ambassadorial nature.
So equinoxes, solstices,cross-quarter days, times of
significant transition andchange in the landscape, moving
(15:06):
between spring and autumn,winter and so forth, whoever was
on the job, the King ofScotland would have to go up to
the central sacred mountain,shehalion, the hall of the Queen
of the shee.
The shee are the landscapeintelligences.
(15:28):
We would call them fairy, butthey're not petite tinkerbell,
they're sort of 45, 40 foot high, shining beings and a bit
intimidating when you encounterthem.
(16:12):
No-transcript, but his job wasto communicate with this
overarching landscapeintelligence and literally come
down the mountain, sort ofMoses-style, with a script of
how many deer could be taken andhow many fish could be taken
and what the planting andharvesting dates would be.
(16:34):
Because back in the day wedidn't have google, we didn't
have almanacs, we didn't havelibrary, we really didn't have
any written historical record,so your only source of
information was anticipation andexperience, and so they really
(16:57):
did want to know what theirgrandparents and
great-grandparents had done lasttime they had a flood like this
or a frost like this or a plantillness like this, and so their
only strategy was tocommunicate with tribal
ancestors and the spirits ofplace, to follow in accord and
(17:20):
guidance so that the wells wouldbe full and the cattle would be
fat and, as they say here inAmerica, all the women would be
strong and the men good-lookingand the children above average.
AJ (17:35):
You know you made the Moses allusion before.
Patrick (17:39):
It is striking that these archetypes of mythology
recur across cultures and whenyou think about relying on your
ancestry for knowledge, the waysthat's been left behind in some
cultures my culture, ourculture, maybe modern Western
(18:02):
enlightenment culture thatthat's been left behind but that
it was a universal experienceand remains well yeah, in our
ancestry, if not in our DNA, itis and because of being raised
in a space where that wasordinary, my sort of go-to
(18:28):
support team includes CompanionAngels and Mum and Dad variously
, and also a number of otherfriends and colleagues, as well
as Genetic Linear Ancestry,genetic linear ancestry who are
available to help and help outin all manner of what we would
(18:52):
consider miraculous ways becausethey're for us non-linear,
non-logical.
But to not be including yourfriends in high places on your
power team is seriously missinga trick.
AJ (19:12):
That, I think, is dawning on many more of us.
It might be worth saying evenwe're in the car, so we're
passing a university I'm toldit's a university town and we're
passing.
Patrick (19:21):
City University.
This is it.
This is the University ofVermont.
Very gracious and elegantbuildings here at the top of the
hill.
AJ (19:27):
Yeah, and awash with activity, because it may even be
the first day of semester.
Patrick (19:33):
Very close to it.
I think they went back on acouple of days ago.
Okay, yes, so we're full ofeager and well-intentioned young
learners here.
AJ (19:46):
You get a glimpse of the hope of youth darting about the
Knowledge Centre as we have it.
And yeah, on a lovely sunny dayand, yeah, a bit of traffic,
we're stuck in, but it gives ustime to talk.
So maybe it's a good junctureto follow that thread through
some ancestry and go back alittle further and how.
(20:08):
This was how this did become anormal part of your life.
Where did it start?
Patrick (20:15):
in your family, In my family.
I can't quite trace it back, AJ.
What I know is my Irishgrandmother was deeply into it,
but at this point both myparents as well as grandparents,
have passed.
So I now would really like tosit down and have a good old
(20:35):
chat and find where did thatcome from in her life?
Was it an unbroken traditionrunning in a female lineage, or
was she particularly gifted orcurious as an result?
But certainly she was part ofwhat's now the White Eagle Lodge
(21:04):
, which is a society ofspiritual enlightenment and
healing that still continues tothis day and formed in the early
part of the 1900s around amedium called Grace Cook, and
she apparently had connectionwith a Native American old soul
(21:27):
who went by the name of WhiteEagle, hence the White Eagle
Lodge.
And there was a huge amount ofspiritualism being practiced in
the late 1800s and early 1900sillegal technically in Britain
under witchcraft laws, but veryopen here in the US.
(21:49):
Illegal technically in Britainunder witchcraft laws, but very
open here in the US, with a lotof summer camps for
spiritualists.
And that was a thing you wentand did you know for your summer
holiday was camp by a lake witha bunch of other spiritualists
and talked to all your friendsand family in spirit.
(22:15):
So in my family was it was justa given, and my father went off
as a 19-year-old with theBritish Expeditionary Force at
the beginning of the war inEurope in 1939 and found himself
(22:37):
fighting rearguard defencearound the perimeter of Dunkirk
while troops were evacuated fromthe beaches, and at that point
he was spontaneously moved.
While troops were evacuatedfrom the beaches, and at that
point he was spontaneously moved, put his hand on wounded
(22:57):
comrades.
They had no opportunity formedical supplies or medical
evacuation, so he just put hishands on people and, to his
amazement, was able to stopbleeding and give pain relief
and indeed keep people alive.
The main killer, I think, isbattlefield shock from trauma
(23:20):
and blood loss in thosecircumstances.
So he was completely amazedthat sure enough, just like it
says on the box, we've all got agift of healing and when
circumstances arise to call itout, then it's there.
But he was still surprised.
(23:43):
I think it was amazing.
He'd obviously grown up withthose concepts, yes, but perhaps
in a more sort of abstract andsort of sitting room
conversation fashion, ratherthan in the raw heat of the
(24:04):
moment when nothing else wouldwould work and only that could
serve.
So he then cultivated for thenext 20 years through training
and apprenticeships withdifferent psychics and healers,
(24:24):
I think most notably a gentlemancalled Harry Edwards, who was
(24:46):
preeminent spiritual healer inthe first half of the psychic
ability in a militarycircumstance.
That was found very helpful ina number of situations during
(25:12):
campaigns, I know, across NorthAfrica.
They had nightly seancesamongst the officers to help
them establish enemy trooppositions and numbers in the
absence of satellite or otheraerial reconnaissance.
He was involved in studieswhere they doused the noon
(25:38):
position of naval warships atsea to check on the accuracy of
that.
There were studies of that,mm-hmm.
Yeah, apparently they wereabsolutely dead accurate.
You could find a designatedwarship at sea wherever it was
(26:00):
and then quietly the use ofdowsing to find and then
subsequently disable landminesdowsing to find and then
subsequently disable landminesand I know that those were
things that he was personallyinvolved in and I know the sort
of extent of military uses ofboth dowsing and psychic
(26:21):
practices are extensive,although often quite quietly
done.
Yeah, but use of remote viewingwas big, I think for a while,
and so he was in the army for 20years.
He was a military brat.
His dad had been a careerofficer and he'd been all the
(26:45):
way through military collegefrom, I think, age 8, eight
until 19.
AJ (26:49):
So it was his life and his his milieu but conversely then
not yours, because by then thecenter was up and running and I
grew up with it.
Patrick (26:59):
Yes, no, it was.
It was um gurus for breakfastand lamas for lunch, because it
was the first of its day.
And so people came from Tibetand America and Scandinavia to
visit and study and they ranconferences and workshops and
(27:23):
took apprentices.
We had up to eight full-timelive-in apprentices for a while
um, marvelous, as you canimagine.
AJ (27:33):
Fascinating kitchen table chats so these are your very
young years, then, that yourecall like this that was my
growing up.
Patrick (27:43):
Yeah, as far as I knew that was normal.
AJ (27:45):
Yeah, well, when did you recognise that you were indeed
carrying this ability as well?
Patrick (27:54):
I grew up fascinated by it and immersed in it and,
frankly, very much hoped that Icould do it too.
As you would I can well imagine, and my plan was to join the
family's business and wecertainly learned skills and
(28:17):
worked on each other and animalsand so on, just growing up.
But honestly, until one'sreally in a situation of applied
need, then that's when you getto see whether the thing really
(28:37):
works nicely or not.
AJ (28:39):
When did that come for you?
Patrick (28:42):
So I was encouraged to take a degree in medicine before
going into the holistictherapies field, partly for
training, partly for subsequentissues of licensing and
insurance and so on.
So I went through medicalschool and got my basic medical
(29:08):
license and then at that point Itook a year out to really focus
on what part of the field wasmost interesting to me.
And I was really fascinated byenvironmental health and working
with places and the effectsthat those had on the people
(29:32):
living there.
And at the time the WorldHealth Organization had released
statistics declaring that 30%of our buildings were sick
buildings, based on a criteriaof 20% or more of the occupants
having health or comfortproblems arising directly from
the location.
(29:53):
And there's seven or eightthings on that list, including
air quality, light quality,sound quality.
But studies from Germany in the1920s and 70s done by Dowsers
had shown a very strongcorrelation with human health,
(30:20):
and something called geopathicstress arises when something
natural to the site is stressfulfor health, the most classic of
which is water running inunderground streams or faults or
(30:44):
fractures and fissures.
And because water is the mostelectrically conductive material
in the landscape over a strongunderground stream, the Earth's
natural geomagnetic fieldexpresses itself in a slightly
more exaggerated and sometimesaggressive way.
(31:06):
But also it acts as a pathwayfor atmospheric electromagnetism
going to ground.
So for hundreds, probablythousands of years we'd known to
avoid sleeping or building ourhouses or putting our animals
(31:33):
close, confined in locationswhere underground water was
there.
A study in 1928 by a Bavariandowser called Baron Gustav Freer
von Pol.
He dowsed for people, for wells, but in the process of walking
(31:59):
the landscape to see where thewater runs, he observed several
things.
He observed that mammals andbirds avoided sleeping over them
or nesting over them entirely,and you'd have birds' nests in
an overhanging eave, one in eachrafter, and then a gap where
there was no nest, and then itwould pick up again and the
dowsing rods showed indeed thatthere was an underground stream
(32:22):
just cutting under that location.
So mammals avoided them, birdsavoided them, but insects very
attracted to them, and ants andbees and wasps would selectively
and deliberately nest over them.
So he observed this speciespreference and also observed the
(32:45):
same in plants.
Some plants were very adverselyaffected, especially fruit
trees and vegetables that cameto a head above ground, brussels
sprouts, kohlrabi, things ofthat nature, whereas some of our
medicinal plants really thrived.
So this was a curiosity and hedid a study in a town called
(33:11):
Vilsberg, on a tributary of theRhine.
At the time had three and ahalf thousand people and he'd
previously doused municipalwells for them and asked if he
could do a health related study.
So with various German burgershe went around the whole town
and mapped out where all thewater ran and specifically if
(33:38):
and when it ran under people'shouses and then especially if it
ran under their beds they'd rununder their beds.
And then they compared thatstudy with the available records
of death by cancer, which wentback to 1918.
(34:01):
This was 28, so they had 10years still of statistics and
they found that every single oneof 52 people who had been
documented as dying of acancerous illness had been
sleeping over one of theseunderground streams.
So that was a real awakener forme as somebody interested in
(34:26):
health and particularlyinterested in being outdoors and
the environmental aspects.
I'd just say in terms of thatstudy it was 1928, before we had
all the carcinogens that we nowhave in our environment and
diet, so it was possibly a studythat would be hard to replicate
(34:48):
now in terms of isolatingcauses, and we also don't know
from the study how many peoplewere sleeping over underground
streams and didn't die fromcancer.
So it's not a complete medicalstudy in that way, but a 100%
association of if you want todie by cancer then you need to
(35:10):
find yourself anenvironmentalgeopathic stress
was certainly, in my mind, worthexploring and sat very
beautifully in the space ofnatural health, dazzing and
medicine.
So it was a bit ideal for me.
(35:34):
I wanna go down.
I don't know if we're gonna beallowed to.
Doesn't look, doesn't look verygood.
It blocked us.
There we go.
They blocked us there we go so,progressing that theme of human
(35:54):
health in environmental contextand starting to work with people
whose health was being affectedadversely by their homes,
people whose health was beingaffected adversely by their
homes.
I got to build up quite a lotof experience with what sort of
patterns fitted, what kind ofillnesses and what the mix of
(36:20):
influences were.
So air, sound and light.
So air, sound and light.
But beyond that, then, thepresence or absence of this
physical geopathic stress wassignificant.
But also, I found of hugesignificance the presence or
(36:43):
absence of residual energies, ofhuman thoughts and feelings,
very colouring of the atmosphere, with or without the presence
(37:05):
of earthbound spirits have beenput onto a place with malevolent
intention and then, as you getdeeper into it, literally
whether the spirit of placerecognizes its current identity
(37:29):
and use and the intentions ofthe people living there.
Because if a place is fullyappraised of what the people are
up to, the natural inclinationis, to the extent that it can,
to support us, whether that's ingrowing the best field of
(37:50):
carrots, or having the mostdelightful restaurant experience
, or commercial, domestic,agricultural, once the elemental
consciousness is clearly, isclear and without residual
(38:13):
stresses and traumas, and thenhas clear communication as to
what the people are up to, thenyou've really got a sort of
working team, a marriage betweenpeople in place.
Because our mind spans at leastfour octaves of consciousness.
(38:33):
The so-called beta, alpha,theta and delta bands from 36
waves per second down to zero,and beta is our cognitive linear
frequency set, and then belowthat, alpha is where plants and
(39:00):
animals basically are havingtheir communications, and then
below that, theta is where theelemental realm has its, its
cognitive consciousness.
So we embrace all of those.
(39:20):
Our Western mind has beentrained into rational linear
consciousness exclusively, andso we can miss out on all of the
so, particularly for anelemental.
They're aware of the presenceof a human mind, but they can't
(39:42):
read our mind if we're in beta.
So it's like being a diverunderwater looking up at the
shadow of a boat on the surface.
Is it a fishing boat?
Is it a warship?
Is it?
kids out for a picnic?
Don't know.
We know that they're there, butunless they bridge into that
elemental theta consciousness,they can't perceive our
(40:07):
intention.
And so what we look to do isidentify, communicate with and
create cooperative agreements,basically with those
intelligences of place.
And it's a slightly differentconversation whether it's a farm
or a shopping mall orsomebody's home, but it's
(40:28):
effectively the sameconversation.
It's it's just a conversationof communication and agreement,
and we start by healing anyhurts that are present in the
landscape and then we get intocommunications and then, as
required, we can optimize withsound or homeopathy or
(40:48):
biodynamics or radionics, etc.
Stone circles such as the onewe're about to see, to really
fine-tune like a musicalinstrument so that the harmonics
of the space are optimum forits currently dedicated use and
(41:09):
purpose.
AJ (41:11):
Perfect segue.
Let's go to the stone circle.
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