Welcome to part 3 of this special on-location recording with the 'land whisperer', Patrick MacManaway, in Burlington, Vermont.
ICYMI, the full episode was played more than most in its early days, but given it was a little over two and a half hours in length, I also wanted to offer it in distinct parts, for those of you who prefer to listen to it that way. There have been plenty of takers too, so I'm glad this suited a bunch of you.
We pick it up here where part 2 ended, as we wound up at the public stone circle in Burlington, Vermont, to head to a woodland labyrinth that again Patrick was pivotal in creating.
En route, we hear some of the great story of what's happening on the land on which the labyrinth has been set up. And on arrival, we venture into the woods, exploring the relevance and power of the labyrinth over time, and how else we can restore our internal compass in the world.
Then we head out for one more stop - a surprise venture to the farm-to-table enterprise that replaced McDonald's downtown.
The fourth and final part with Patrick, back in the garden at his place for a grand finale of sorts, will be out in a couple of days.
Title image by Anthony James. For more behind the scenes, and to help keep the show on the road, become a supporting listener by one or more of the options below.
Thanks for listening.
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The RegenNarration playlist (music chosen by my guests).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
and I like to observe that the hobbits were the
peaceful farmers and they werejust trying to keep things nice
in the shower, and so all of thetrouble around them with the
great and mighty was like astorm that washed through, and
then they went back to growingvegetables and smoking their
(00:22):
tobacco.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Brilliant.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
On that note, let's head to our next stop, okay, so
I'm going to take you next to awoodland labyrinth.
So we are arriving into theland of the Meach Cove Trust and
(00:54):
this is a 600 plus acre estate,put together originally in the
early 1900s and now it hosts aninterfaith community church,
(01:21):
very beautifully poised, lookingout with the same lake view as
this town circle that we've beenon.
And when the current ownerspurchased this land 25 years ago
, they had me do an extensiveamount of work on the land and
(01:41):
the buildings and bring it intoa nice and crisp and clear and
fully engaged, but engaged, butone of the things that they
wanted to support their church,which is in these buildings.
This is the sanctuary, which isbuilt as a squared circle with
(02:04):
golden ratio elevations andsolstice to solstice windows,
same as the solstice to solsticestones.
So, but one of the things thatthey wanted as part of their
(02:29):
their ritual complex, as it wasa labyrinth which you may be
familiar with labyrinths already, they're ancient, apparently
universal, meditative walkingpaths, paths, and we looked
around and assessed quite anumber of sites on the property
(02:51):
and we decided on this rathercharming woodland labyrinth.
So now we're going into thewoods.
So the history of labyrinthsgoes certainly back 3,200 years
(03:30):
based on historical record, butquite possibly much, much older
and later than that, and thedesign that seems to be the
universal is the seven-circuitlabyrinth, sometimes called a
classical Cretan labyrinth, butwe find this design woven into
(03:54):
baskets and rugs and blankets inthe Native American culture
here in North America.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
We find the similar pattern on the plain of Nazca in
Peru.
We find them widely throughEurope and Asia, and many of the
oldest still existing ones arearound the Gulf of Bothnia in
Sweden and date from the Vikingperiod.
(04:31):
Oh yes, that was a squirrel.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I thought he was, but he was.
He wasn't moving until he sawwhich way we were going.
So again, is there a particularway you're engaged.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
He wasn't moving until he saw which way we were
going.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
So again, is there a particular way you engage, so
yes, with the sound of hay beingmown in the background in the
field adjacent.
So there's a single walkingpath that enters here and then
it continues around.
If you number them from theoutside one, two, three, four,
(05:09):
five, six, seven and then acentral area, the sequence of
walking.
It takes you three, two, oneand then four, and then seven,
six, five and into the uh, thecenter, and they can be used in
many ways as a simple walkingmeditation, problem solving time
(05:35):
to quieten the mind.
Often in historical symbolismthere's a goddess in the middle,
and one of the associated mythsis the myth of the descent of
Inanna, who is a Mesopotamiangrain goddess, yeah, and when
she reaches the point of cominginto her mature power as a
(05:59):
goddess, she has to go and visitfirst with the Ereshkigal, who
is queen of the underworld and abit of a scary crone.
So Inanna goes through sevengates, the seven turns in the
labyrinth to access theunderworld, and at each of the
gates Nettie, the gatekeeper,takes from her rather symbolic
(06:21):
items of clothing.
There's a tiara, a necklace, agirdle.
You can sort of follow thechakras being unveiled as the
path goes into the labyrinthuntil finally she achieves the
center of the labyrinth and isnaked in front of a Reshka gal
who slays her and hangs her on ameat hook for a season, as
(06:42):
goddesses will, before bringingher back to life and, um,
reanimating her, and then shecomes back out of the labyrinth,
putting all her things back onin sequence, and when she
emerges she's now fully reborninto her full mature powers,
(07:04):
having first been to that darkplace of death and rebirth at
that moment of transition in herwomanhood.
So there's a way that we canhave a sense of going into the
labyrinth of each layer,stripping away an outer veil of
consciousness or worldlyconcerns until we're really at a
(07:28):
still deep point of renewal andresource in the middle.
That's a lovely way to use them.
Another thing that's fun withthese labyrinths is, although
it's quite a journey around thisone, where 80 feet in diameter,
which is what's required tomake each path wheelchair
(07:49):
accessible, which was one of theremits on this one is that
although it's a long walk aroundthe middle, you can actually
walk across this centralthreshold and go from the
outside straight into the middle, and so sometimes, with
retreats or extended sort offocus time, it's nice to walk
(08:14):
winding into the labyrinth atthe beginning and then step
across that threshold so thatenergetically you're still in
the labyrinth until at the endof the event you cross again
into the very centre and windout.
I used to do week-long holisticmedicine retreats with a
(08:36):
gathering of people who cametogether every year for 20 years
.
We would make a beach labyrinthbelow high tide and walk into
it at the beginning, and then atthe end of the retreat we'd do
another beach labyrinth belowhigh tide and walk into it at
the beginning, and then at theend of the retreat we'd do
another beach labyrinth and walkout of it, and it was a way of
sort of energeticallyintentionally bookending that
(08:56):
this one.
We had the naming and inauguralceremony of coming into the
world for my daughter when thatwas her time and her mum and I
walked with her into thelabyrinth and our friends
gathered and there was singingand praying and speeching and
(09:17):
then Heather and Ali and Istepped across the middle to
come out.
So we're in the labyrinth,we're there for life.
The middle to come out, so we'rein the labyrinth, we're there
for life was just a way ofembodying that shared journey
that will end at its own time sothey can be used in very many
ways across the walls and youcan go four paths in and out,
(09:53):
holding hands with people goingin the opposite directions.
It's a beautiful thing to do.
So we don't know of them ashaving any agricultural context.
We don't know of them as havingany agricultural context, but
it's very much ritual inlandscape and all of the
(10:17):
original Gothic cathedrals had alabyrinth laid into their nave
and I think at the turn of the1900s there were still over 120
turf labyrinths in parishchurches around the UK.
So it used to be every churchwould have an outside labyrinth,
typically turf cut, and soyou'd have celebrations indoors
(10:44):
and then you'd have celebrationsoutdoors and that was a bit
like, you know, having sweatlodges or saunas.
It was part of the annual andregular cycle of people
connecting with themselves andwith Source and the space.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
When you say churches , what churches would we be
talking about when you saychurches.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
What churches would we be talking about?
These would have been certainlythe Episcopalian ones.
There's still one calledJulian's Bower in Alkborough in
Lincolnshire and several others,but most of them they didn't
get maintained or they fell outof use.
And there was quite aresurgence of interest in
(11:28):
labyrinths, particularly in the80s and 90s, and I helped put a
shark-style labyrinth into anEpiscopalian church just five
miles from here.
But they seem to have slightlywaned in people's awareness
again, or at least in a generalsense.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
I'm curious with all this stuff, patrick and we
talked before about so much goodstuff coming on what's been
your observation over your timein changes and shifts in people,
their appetite, their practiceand in agriculture, in these
domains like cast a wide net onthat what's been your
(12:15):
observation of change andappetite for this stuff in
people?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
I think it's.
We get very excited about thethings that we do, but it does
look to be rather generationalto me, and the things that our
children grow up with become thenorm for them, whereas it might
have been quite unusual for uswatching what happened with
(12:40):
holistic medicine hugeexcitement in the 70s and 80s
and you mentioned holotropicbreath work, reflexology,
aromatherapy, yoga, practicessuch as Reiki, tai Chi Qigong a
huge groundswell of interest andnow, a couple of generations
(13:04):
later, it's hard to find anybodywhose next door neighbor isn't
a reiki master and who, yeah,you know yoga doesn't have yoga
or, uh, some sense of of that.
In fairness, I think in the 40sand 50s we were fascinated with
tibetan.
In the 40s and 50s we werefascinated with Tibetan culture.
(13:25):
Prior to that, 20s and 30s,looking very much to Native
Americans.
And now I think the sort ofequivalent is go to South
America and engage withpractices, mind-altering
practices there, and thebreathwork, I mean that's
exploding.
Yes, right now, I think and youmentioned epigenetics, aj I
(13:51):
think you know it takes threegenerations, I think, for a
thing to become reallynormalized and integrated.
You do what your granny did oryour granddad, and I think the
seven generations is probablyhow long it takes for us to get
really sophisticated andelegantly simple with a thing.
(14:12):
Sophisticated and elegantlysimple with a thing.
So my parents were sort ofpioneers, so in a certain sense
I'm second generation in theculture.
Grandmother was into it, butthat was closed door stuff.
But looking around at what'snormal now, what we're exposed
to the explosion of internetallowing us to listen, to learn
(14:38):
from, observe practices from allover the world, and I think
people are hungrier than they'veever been and the
deconstruction of the humaninstitutions in which we've held
doctrinal religions, I think,as those deconstruct, or people
(15:00):
are unsatisfied with the humanelements of those I think we've
got.
A hungry population isliterally soul searching for
authenticity, for wholeness, fortruth and for our fundamental
reconnection.
We've somehow become lonely onthe planet as human beings.
(15:24):
We've been told that we're theproblem and that without us the
planet would do fine.
But in my experience, at leastpersonally, any time I've
connected and engaged withelementals, nature, spirits,
there's been such a depth ofwelcome and warmth and support
(15:46):
and guidance and encouragementthat I simply everything that I
was raised to, but alsoeverything that I've experienced
, reassures me that we are partof life on the planet and we
have a very particular andsacred role.
I don't know what other thanhuman being has our experience
(16:10):
of watching a sunset or asunrise, what other incarnate
beings are singing and dancingand playing violin?
Maybe we've got a sacred dutyof digging things up and moving
them around.
There's nothing else that doesthat, not to that scale anyway.
Well, maybe the place gets toexpress and experience itself in
(16:33):
a certain way uniquely, throughthe eyes and actions of people,
because at the end of the day,we've had ice ages and dinosaurs
and meteor strikes andvolcanoes and mass extinctions.
So it might be we should dialback our egocentric sense of
(16:54):
power of actually being able todestroy a planet.
We can certainly create ecocideand terrible, terrible land
management and um environmentalharm, but I think that's a very
brief and unusual thing forpeople to do.
Unusual thing for people to do.
Actually, I think our nature isvery connected and, historically
(17:18):
as well, your intuition andinstinct were your survival
necessaries.
We rely now on data andintellect, but if you can't
perceive the presence of asaber-toothed tiger.
Until you see it it's too latealready.
(17:38):
And we have mountain lions andbears in the woods here in
Vermont and you know if there'sone around and you don't want to
see it.
But you instinctively know andyou can read nature because the
birds are very quiet or they'remaking alarm calls or the forest
has gone very still becausenothing wants to move while that
(18:00):
happens and the hair goes backup on the neck and the arms and
you know there's a predator hereand you know you want to move
away.
So that could be calledirrational.
I didn't hear it, I didn't seeit.
I know theoretically it couldbe here, but my body knows it's
present.
And if we couldn't find food,if we couldn't find water, if we
(18:23):
didn't have that level ofintrinsic awareness of landscape
, you simply, you know, didn'tmake it till breakfast time
tomorrow.
So what used to besurvival-level awarenesses, I
think, have become a little bitredundant with our infatuation
with linear cognition andtechnology.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
It's very interesting you say that I have heard
almost the same words frompeople coming across this
country, including in the veryepisode that's coming out today,
which is on the buffalorestoration on the Great Plains
another extraordinary story andhe was describing the same thing
(19:04):
, and that's even with the guywho's regarded as just about as
good a buffalo wrangler as thereis, that you will still feel
that when it looks you in theeye and and, similarly, if
there's something coming thatyou're, you need to be aware of,
but you're not to your visualeye.
And I heard the same thing froma man in south dakota who
(19:27):
tracks mountain lions so he'sengaged with them all the time,
but found himself in a situationwhere it was above him, but he
didn't know it, but felt it andgot the hell out of there and
came back and then confirmedwhat was I feeling?
I was up there, oh my, you know.
But this is true of a bunch offarmers obviously I've spoken to
as well.
It's partly how we've cometogether.
(19:48):
And when I hear that, what Iwant to hear in your words is as
much, your senses are alive andsure you don't necessarily want
to have to walk into thepresence of a jaw that would eat
you to feel alive.
But we don't have to.
We can feel it in theagricultural spaces you dwell in
and where we are right now.
(20:09):
But to think then that that'swhat we've traded out for more
secure, quote-unquote survivalmethods, that's a big price to
pay and I and I guess then itdoes make sense of the
loneliness, epidemics, theanxiety the you talked before,
(20:32):
the grasping for the next biggerthing, because what else are
you going to do If you've lostwhat actually triggers your
living instincts?
Your compasses, shut down, soyou grasp, it makes.
There is a logic in that thateven that makes some sense of
(20:55):
where we find ourselves.
So sure, maybe we don't needthis for survival, but the way
things have got, I kind of thinkwe do.
Perhaps not your physicalsurvival, but then when you look
at chronic illness exploding, Ithink maybe we do for just
straight up survival, need theseinstincts, we need the compass
(21:18):
lest we be lost I think we do,and even in pure economics, if
you get them, if you get themoff, off camera, um, pretty much
the the most successfulinvestors are hyper-intuitive
and hyper-instinctive.
(21:38):
Yes, good point.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
I think George Soros' wife called him out at one
lecture where he wasextrapolating his investment
theory and his wife said he justinvests when his kidneys hurt.
Yeah, interesting.
I don't know what else he's upto, but I've certainly been
impressed, including back to ourmilitary conversation, yeah,
(21:59):
often the the people at the topof the tree are using this stuff
all the time.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Yeah, and I even hear about, I mean alan savory told
me.
I asked him and he said thereis certainly more than once that
intuition saved him from beingshot on the battlefield, and
it's not an isolated story,obviously.
I was just curious on how he'dexperienced it.
Well, that hay cutter's gotclose to us.
(22:27):
It has, maybe we should.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
That's our time to continue to move on.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
I think so, but wow, what a special place.
All right, patrick.
Sorry in a way, because themachine's left us now and this
is now feeling a whole otherlevel of beautiful and powerful
Just listening to that.
So sorry in a way, but we'vegot somewhere else that would be
good to visit.
So let's go there now, and enroute you've got a bit of a
(22:56):
story to tell.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Yes, so Vermont gets settled mid to late 1700s and
back in the day it was reallythe breadbasket of New England,
really entirely agriculturalstate.
85% of the land was cleared foragriculture, huge amount of
(23:24):
sheep as well as grain and fruitproduction.
And then land opening upprogressively in the west and
the central sections of thecountry and changing
(23:46):
agricultural economics meantthat the small and often hilly
Vermont farms were no longereconomically viable and so most
of the farmland was simplyabandoned and forest is regrown
(24:10):
and now again covers 85% of theland is now forested Wow.
But when the farms were goingout in the 50s there was a
massive back to the landmovement that came into Vermont
and New Hampshire and NewEngland.
The nearings were kind oficonic of that period.
(24:34):
So land was cheap and thealternative back-to-land
community came here.
And then the same thinghappened again in the 1970s,
where we got a huge influx ofsophisticated, well-educated,
often university graduates yes,so inexpensive land prices.
(24:59):
In the 70s we got a whole sortof wave of what we'd refer to as
the hippie culture People whowanted to drop out of mainstream
and in their own way come backto the land.
So Vermont found itself in aninteresting position of being
(25:20):
economically conservative andsocially liberal and a lot of
very interesting projects gotrooted and anchored in Vermont.
It became a haven for peopleconcerned with food and
alternative education.
A lot of independent schools,strong presence of Steiner
(25:43):
schools and that's changinggradually with changing
political and economiccircumstances, but we still do
have this very strong body ofvery holistic-minded people who
(26:05):
either themselves or theirparents or grandparents,
grandparents found their way toVermont to live in a more
land-based and independent kindof community, and so we've got a
very strong slow food movementhere, with a lot farm-to-table
(26:30):
style restaurants, directpurchase from identified
agricultural producers.
We've got a couple ofsubstantially dedicated Whole
Foods supermarkets and on eachtray of potatoes or sprouts or
(26:53):
beans it tells us exactly whichfarm it came from, and so a lot
of local vorisms.
And then very smart integratedfarmers who grow grains for
(27:13):
local distilleries and then thespent mash goes back to feed
cows and pigs.
There's one facility inHardwick where surplus whey from
milk products is made into avery high quality wall and
(27:36):
flooring, almost like apolyurethane Really A shellac.
That's a really good one that'sentirely made locally from
waste products of the dairyindustry.
And then a lot of small-scale,multi-stacked farms that host
(28:07):
community-supported agriculture.
But they also have their opendays and their burger nights and
their berry picking days and wecan go and take a picnic and
listen to music while we pickour berries, and there's a real
strong support for the local aswell as the organic in the state
(28:34):
.
So although we're small, we'rein a way quite flagship for
integrated holistic agriculture.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yes, that story certainly reached Australia and
I did a podcast out of Vermont,out of actually Montpelier,
maybe four years ago now, withJake Claro with the Vermont
Sustainable Jobs Fund, I thinkit's called, but he was the
manager of the what was it?
Farm Paddock to Plate or Farmto Plate program or something of
(29:08):
that nature, and that it wasbipartisan support in this
backed strategy for the stateand all very interesting stuff.
So that summed to a fascinatingstory.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
You mentioned to me where we're going now, to the
heart of town where mcdonald'stried to set up yes, in the
heart of burlington, theirdowntown mcdonald's Downtown
McDonald's some years ago wasnot being sufficiently supported
(29:40):
to be viable as it was and thebuilding now hosts a direct
farm-to-table restaurant andit's slightly typical and rather
iconic of how the public moveshere typical and rather iconic
of how the public moves herethat they'd support a
farm-to-table rather than aMcDonald's in their main
downtown location.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Oh, it's such a wonderful symbol, let alone
physical enterprise.
I have to say so, yeah, lookingforward to this.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
I have to see it.
So, yeah, looking forward tothis.
Alright, let's go and checkthis out.
Let's go to Macca's.
Let's go to Macca's.
They lost the franchise.
I can't quite remember what thetipping point was for these
guys, but it might be that awaiter or a waitress can can
(30:39):
tell us they should almost havethe story.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
They really should have the story somewhere public,
because it's a great story onthe surface and you know we
don't need to know the specificsnecessarily.
I just rejoice even in the factit's here instead of a
mcdonald's.
We could do.
You want to?
Speaker 1 (30:50):
grab a coffee or a beer or something.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Sounds good, mate.
Great idea.
Should we do that?
Yeah, great idea, and we caneven look it up.
You're right, maybe evensomeone who serves us will know
they might just know it's likeour way in.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Are you hungry at all or just?
Speaker 2 (31:06):
grab a beverage, yeah , Should we sit down I can go
either way, should we sit downand get a menu?
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah, sounds good.
Hi, two of us.
Two of us, yes, please, andwe're hoping that somebody can
tell us the story of how thisbecame farmhouse from.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
McDonald's, yeah, mcdonald's.
I want to say.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
I've been around since the 90s, but I can't
remember what the tipping pointwas that switched this over.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
I think it just wasn't doing very well.
And then they tried to build adrive-thru, but then the city
decided not to allow drive-thrusand in 2010 this opened as
Barnhouse.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
It's so good.
I host a podcast from Australiaand when I heard heard about
this, it's just such a greatsymbol, let alone so funny.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Yeah, from a mcdonald's to a farm to table
burger joint.
I know it's funny we still havesome of the mcdonald's tiles
like downstairs in the prepkitchen really yeah, it's funny
that's brilliant there.
There's a spot, manhattan'sPizzeria, that used to be a
Wendy's and as far as I knowthey still have the Wendy's fry
(32:17):
press to hand cut the fries.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Even better, you keep it.
That's how it's there.
There almost needs to be aplaque out front A plaque.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Yeah, we run out us being friendly.
We've got a lot of like chainson him here, Like there was a
Starbucks that closed, there wasa Five Guys that didn't stay
very long.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Music to my ears.
This is recording.
Do you mind if I include thisin the podcast?
Speaker 3 (32:43):
What's your name?
I'm Kate Reid.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Thanks a lot, Kate.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Of course, inside or outside.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Oh, if there's outside, that's fine.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Yeah, that's awesome.
and I like to observe that the hobbits were the
peaceful farmers and they werejust trying to keep things nice
in the shower, and so all of thetrouble around them with the
great and mighty was like astorm that washed through, and
then they went back to growingvegetables and smoking their
(00:22):
tobacco.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Brilliant.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
On that note, let's head to our next stop, okay, so
I'm going to take you next to awoodland labyrinth.
So we are arriving into theland of the Meach Cove Trust and
(00:54):
this is a 600 plus acre estate,put together originally in the
early 1900s and now it hosts aninterfaith community church,
(01:21):
very beautifully poised, lookingout with the same lake view as
this town circle that we've beenon.
And when the current ownerspurchased this land 25 years ago
, they had me do an extensiveamount of work on the land and
(01:41):
the buildings and bring it intoa nice and crisp and clear and
fully engaged, but engaged, butone of the things that they
wanted to support their church,which is in these buildings.
This is the sanctuary, which isbuilt as a squared circle with
(02:04):
golden ratio elevations andsolstice to solstice windows,
same as the solstice to solsticestones.
So, but one of the things thatthey wanted as part of their
(02:29):
their ritual complex, as it wasa labyrinth which you may be
familiar with labyrinths already, they're ancient, apparently
universal, meditative walkingpaths, paths, and we looked
around and assessed quite anumber of sites on the property
(02:51):
and we decided on this rathercharming woodland labyrinth.
So now we're going into thewoods.
So the history of labyrinthsgoes certainly back 3,200 years
(03:30):
based on historical record, butquite possibly much, much older
and later than that, and thedesign that seems to be the
universal is the seven-circuitlabyrinth, sometimes called a
classical Cretan labyrinth, butwe find this design woven into
(03:54):
baskets and rugs and blankets inthe Native American culture
here in North America.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (04:09):
We find the similar pattern on the plain of Nazca in
Peru.
We find them widely throughEurope and Asia, and many of the
oldest still existing ones arearound the Gulf of Bothnia in
Sweden and date from the Vikingperiod.
(04:31):
Oh yes, that was a squirrel.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
I thought he was, but he was.
He wasn't moving until he sawwhich way we were going.
So again, is there a particularway you're engaged.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
He wasn't moving until he saw which way we were
going.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
So again, is there a particular way you engage, so
yes, with the sound of hay beingmown in the background in the
field adjacent.
So there's a single walkingpath that enters here and then
it continues around.
If you number them from theoutside one, two, three, four,
(05:09):
five, six, seven and then acentral area, the sequence of
walking.
It takes you three, two, oneand then four, and then seven,
six, five and into the uh, thecenter, and they can be used in
many ways as a simple walkingmeditation, problem solving time
(05:35):
to quieten the mind.
Often in historical symbolismthere's a goddess in the middle,
and one of the associated mythsis the myth of the descent of
Inanna, who is a Mesopotamiangrain goddess, yeah, and when
she reaches the point of cominginto her mature power as a
(05:59):
goddess, she has to go and visitfirst with the Ereshkigal, who
is queen of the underworld and abit of a scary crone.
So Inanna goes through sevengates, the seven turns in the
labyrinth to access theunderworld, and at each of the
gates Nettie, the gatekeeper,takes from her rather symbolic
(06:21):
items of clothing.
There's a tiara, a necklace, agirdle.
You can sort of follow thechakras being unveiled as the
path goes into the labyrinthuntil finally she achieves the
center of the labyrinth and isnaked in front of a Reshka gal
who slays her and hangs her on ameat hook for a season, as
(06:42):
goddesses will, before bringingher back to life and, um,
reanimating her, and then shecomes back out of the labyrinth,
putting all her things back onin sequence, and when she
emerges she's now fully reborninto her full mature powers,
(07:04):
having first been to that darkplace of death and rebirth at
that moment of transition in herwomanhood.
So there's a way that we canhave a sense of going into the
labyrinth of each layer,stripping away an outer veil of
consciousness or worldlyconcerns until we're really at a
(07:28):
still deep point of renewal andresource in the middle.
That's a lovely way to use them.
Another thing that's fun withthese labyrinths is, although
it's quite a journey around thisone, where 80 feet in diameter,
which is what's required tomake each path wheelchair
(07:49):
accessible, which was one of theremits on this one is that
although it's a long walk aroundthe middle, you can actually
walk across this centralthreshold and go from the
outside straight into the middle, and so sometimes, with
retreats or extended sort offocus time, it's nice to walk
(08:14):
winding into the labyrinth atthe beginning and then step
across that threshold so thatenergetically you're still in
the labyrinth until at the endof the event you cross again
into the very centre and windout.
I used to do week-long holisticmedicine retreats with a
(08:36):
gathering of people who cametogether every year for 20 years
.
We would make a beach labyrinthbelow high tide and walk into
it at the beginning, and then atthe end of the retreat we'd do
another beach labyrinth belowhigh tide and walk into it at
the beginning, and then at theend of the retreat we'd do
another beach labyrinth and walkout of it, and it was a way of
sort of energeticallyintentionally bookending that
(08:56):
this one.
We had the naming and inauguralceremony of coming into the
world for my daughter when thatwas her time and her mum and I
walked with her into thelabyrinth and our friends
gathered and there was singingand praying and speeching and
(09:17):
then Heather and Ali and Istepped across the middle to
come out.
So we're in the labyrinth,we're there for life.
The middle to come out, so we'rein the labyrinth, we're there
for life was just a way ofembodying that shared journey
that will end at its own time sothey can be used in very many
ways across the walls and youcan go four paths in and out,
(09:53):
holding hands with people goingin the opposite directions.
It's a beautiful thing to do.
So we don't know of them ashaving any agricultural context.
We don't know of them as havingany agricultural context, but
it's very much ritual inlandscape and all of the
(10:17):
original Gothic cathedrals had alabyrinth laid into their nave
and I think at the turn of the1900s there were still over 120
turf labyrinths in parishchurches around the UK.
So it used to be every churchwould have an outside labyrinth,
typically turf cut, and soyou'd have celebrations indoors
(10:44):
and then you'd have celebrationsoutdoors and that was a bit
like, you know, having sweatlodges or saunas.
It was part of the annual andregular cycle of people
connecting with themselves andwith Source and the space.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
When you say churches , what churches would we be
talking about when you saychurches.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
What churches would we be talking about?
These would have been certainlythe Episcopalian ones.
There's still one calledJulian's Bower in Alkborough in
Lincolnshire and several others,but most of them they didn't
get maintained or they fell outof use.
And there was quite aresurgence of interest in
(11:28):
labyrinths, particularly in the80s and 90s, and I helped put a
shark-style labyrinth into anEpiscopalian church just five
miles from here.
But they seem to have slightlywaned in people's awareness
again, or at least in a generalsense.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
I'm curious with all this stuff, patrick and we
talked before about so much goodstuff coming on what's been
your observation over your timein changes and shifts in people,
their appetite, their practiceand in agriculture, in these
domains like cast a wide net onthat what's been your
(12:15):
observation of change andappetite for this stuff in
people?
Speaker 1 (12:19):
I think it's.
We get very excited about thethings that we do, but it does
look to be rather generationalto me, and the things that our
children grow up with become thenorm for them, whereas it might
have been quite unusual for uswatching what happened with
(12:40):
holistic medicine hugeexcitement in the 70s and 80s
and you mentioned holotropicbreath work, reflexology,
aromatherapy, yoga, practicessuch as Reiki, tai Chi Qigong a
huge groundswell of interest andnow, a couple of generations
(13:04):
later, it's hard to find anybodywhose next door neighbor isn't
a reiki master and who, yeah,you know yoga doesn't have yoga
or, uh, some sense of of that.
In fairness, I think in the 40sand 50s we were fascinated with
tibetan.
In the 40s and 50s we werefascinated with Tibetan culture.
(13:25):
Prior to that, 20s and 30s,looking very much to Native
Americans.
And now I think the sort ofequivalent is go to South
America and engage withpractices, mind-altering
practices there, and thebreathwork, I mean that's
exploding.
Yes, right now, I think and youmentioned epigenetics, aj I
(13:51):
think you know it takes threegenerations, I think, for a
thing to become reallynormalized and integrated.
You do what your granny did oryour granddad, and I think the
seven generations is probablyhow long it takes for us to get
really sophisticated andelegantly simple with a thing.
(14:12):
Sophisticated and elegantlysimple with a thing.
So my parents were sort ofpioneers, so in a certain sense
I'm second generation in theculture.
Grandmother was into it, butthat was closed door stuff.
But looking around at what'snormal now, what we're exposed
to the explosion of internetallowing us to listen, to learn
(14:38):
from, observe practices from allover the world, and I think
people are hungrier than they'veever been and the
deconstruction of the humaninstitutions in which we've held
doctrinal religions, I think,as those deconstruct, or people
(15:00):
are unsatisfied with the humanelements of those I think we've
got.
A hungry population isliterally soul searching for
authenticity, for wholeness, fortruth and for our fundamental
reconnection.
We've somehow become lonely onthe planet as human beings.
(15:24):
We've been told that we're theproblem and that without us the
planet would do fine.
But in my experience, at leastpersonally, any time I've
connected and engaged withelementals, nature, spirits,
there's been such a depth ofwelcome and warmth and support
(15:46):
and guidance and encouragementthat I simply everything that I
was raised to, but alsoeverything that I've experienced
, reassures me that we are partof life on the planet and we
have a very particular andsacred role.
I don't know what other thanhuman being has our experience
(16:10):
of watching a sunset or asunrise, what other incarnate
beings are singing and dancingand playing violin?
Maybe we've got a sacred dutyof digging things up and moving
them around.
There's nothing else that doesthat, not to that scale anyway.
Well, maybe the place gets toexpress and experience itself in
(16:33):
a certain way uniquely, throughthe eyes and actions of people,
because at the end of the day,we've had ice ages and dinosaurs
and meteor strikes andvolcanoes and mass extinctions.
So it might be we should dialback our egocentric sense of
(16:54):
power of actually being able todestroy a planet.
We can certainly create ecocideand terrible, terrible land
management and um environmentalharm, but I think that's a very
brief and unusual thing forpeople to do.
Unusual thing for people to do.
Actually, I think our nature isvery connected and, historically
(17:18):
as well, your intuition andinstinct were your survival
necessaries.
We rely now on data andintellect, but if you can't
perceive the presence of asaber-toothed tiger.
Until you see it it's too latealready.
(17:38):
And we have mountain lions andbears in the woods here in
Vermont and you know if there'sone around and you don't want to
see it.
But you instinctively know andyou can read nature because the
birds are very quiet or they'remaking alarm calls or the forest
has gone very still becausenothing wants to move while that
(18:00):
happens and the hair goes backup on the neck and the arms and
you know there's a predator hereand you know you want to move
away.
So that could be calledirrational.
I didn't hear it, I didn't seeit.
I know theoretically it couldbe here, but my body knows it's
present.
And if we couldn't find food,if we couldn't find water, if we
(18:23):
didn't have that level ofintrinsic awareness of landscape
, you simply, you know, didn'tmake it till breakfast time
tomorrow.
So what used to besurvival-level awarenesses, I
think, have become a little bitredundant with our infatuation
with linear cognition andtechnology.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
It's very interesting you say that I have heard
almost the same words frompeople coming across this
country, including in the veryepisode that's coming out today,
which is on the buffalorestoration on the Great Plains
another extraordinary story andhe was describing the same thing
(19:04):
, and that's even with the guywho's regarded as just about as
good a buffalo wrangler as thereis, that you will still feel
that when it looks you in theeye and and, similarly, if
there's something coming thatyou're, you need to be aware of,
but you're not to your visualeye.
And I heard the same thing froma man in south dakota who
(19:27):
tracks mountain lions so he'sengaged with them all the time,
but found himself in a situationwhere it was above him, but he
didn't know it, but felt it andgot the hell out of there and
came back and then confirmedwhat was I feeling?
I was up there, oh my, you know.
But this is true of a bunch offarmers obviously I've spoken to
as well.
It's partly how we've cometogether.
(19:48):
And when I hear that, what Iwant to hear in your words is as
much, your senses are alive andsure you don't necessarily want
to have to walk into thepresence of a jaw that would eat
you to feel alive.
But we don't have to.
We can feel it in theagricultural spaces you dwell in
and where we are right now.
(20:09):
But to think then that that'swhat we've traded out for more
secure, quote-unquote survivalmethods, that's a big price to
pay and I and I guess then itdoes make sense of the
loneliness, epidemics, theanxiety the you talked before,
(20:32):
the grasping for the next biggerthing, because what else are
you going to do If you've lostwhat actually triggers your
living instincts?
Your compasses, shut down, soyou grasp, it makes.
There is a logic in that thateven that makes some sense of
(20:55):
where we find ourselves.
So sure, maybe we don't needthis for survival, but the way
things have got, I kind of thinkwe do.
Perhaps not your physicalsurvival, but then when you look
at chronic illness exploding, Ithink maybe we do for just
straight up survival, need theseinstincts, we need the compass
(21:18):
lest we be lost I think we do,and even in pure economics, if
you get them, if you get themoff, off camera, um, pretty much
the the most successfulinvestors are hyper-intuitive
and hyper-instinctive.
(21:38):
Yes, good point.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
I think George Soros' wife called him out at one
lecture where he wasextrapolating his investment
theory and his wife said he justinvests when his kidneys hurt.
Yeah, interesting.
I don't know what else he's upto, but I've certainly been
impressed, including back to ourmilitary conversation, yeah,
(21:59):
often the the people at the topof the tree are using this stuff
all the time.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Yeah, and I even hear about, I mean alan savory told
me.
I asked him and he said thereis certainly more than once that
intuition saved him from beingshot on the battlefield, and
it's not an isolated story,obviously.
I was just curious on how he'dexperienced it.
Well, that hay cutter's gotclose to us.
(22:27):
It has, maybe we should.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
That's our time to continue to move on.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
I think so, but wow, what a special place.
All right, patrick.
Sorry in a way, because themachine's left us now and this
is now feeling a whole otherlevel of beautiful and powerful
Just listening to that.
So sorry in a way, but we'vegot somewhere else that would be
good to visit.
So let's go there now, and enroute you've got a bit of a
(22:56):
story to tell.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
Yes, so Vermont gets settled mid to late 1700s and
back in the day it was reallythe breadbasket of New England,
really entirely agriculturalstate.
85% of the land was cleared foragriculture, huge amount of
(23:24):
sheep as well as grain and fruitproduction.
And then land opening upprogressively in the west and
the central sections of thecountry and changing
(23:46):
agricultural economics meantthat the small and often hilly
Vermont farms were no longereconomically viable and so most
of the farmland was simplyabandoned and forest is regrown
(24:10):
and now again covers 85% of theland is now forested Wow.
But when the farms were goingout in the 50s there was a
massive back to the landmovement that came into Vermont
and New Hampshire and NewEngland.
The nearings were kind oficonic of that period.
(24:34):
So land was cheap and thealternative back-to-land
community came here.
And then the same thinghappened again in the 1970s,
where we got a huge influx ofsophisticated, well-educated,
often university graduates yes,so inexpensive land prices.
(24:59):
In the 70s we got a whole sortof wave of what we'd refer to as
the hippie culture People whowanted to drop out of mainstream
and in their own way come backto the land.
So Vermont found itself in aninteresting position of being
(25:20):
economically conservative andsocially liberal and a lot of
very interesting projects gotrooted and anchored in Vermont.
It became a haven for peopleconcerned with food and
alternative education.
A lot of independent schools,strong presence of Steiner
(25:43):
schools and that's changinggradually with changing
political and economiccircumstances, but we still do
have this very strong body ofvery holistic-minded people who
(26:05):
either themselves or theirparents or grandparents,
grandparents found their way toVermont to live in a more
land-based and independent kindof community, and so we've got a
very strong slow food movementhere, with a lot farm-to-table
(26:30):
style restaurants, directpurchase from identified
agricultural producers.
We've got a couple ofsubstantially dedicated Whole
Foods supermarkets and on eachtray of potatoes or sprouts or
(26:53):
beans it tells us exactly whichfarm it came from, and so a lot
of local vorisms.
And then very smart integratedfarmers who grow grains for
(27:13):
local distilleries and then thespent mash goes back to feed
cows and pigs.
There's one facility inHardwick where surplus whey from
milk products is made into avery high quality wall and
(27:36):
flooring, almost like apolyurethane Really A shellac.
That's a really good one that'sentirely made locally from
waste products of the dairyindustry.
And then a lot of small-scale,multi-stacked farms that host
(28:07):
community-supported agriculture.
But they also have their opendays and their burger nights and
their berry picking days and wecan go and take a picnic and
listen to music while we pickour berries, and there's a real
strong support for the local aswell as the organic in the state
(28:34):
.
So although we're small, we'rein a way quite flagship for
integrated holistic agriculture.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yes, that story certainly reached Australia and
I did a podcast out of Vermont,out of actually Montpelier,
maybe four years ago now, withJake Claro with the Vermont
Sustainable Jobs Fund, I thinkit's called, but he was the
manager of the what was it?
Farm Paddock to Plate or Farmto Plate program or something of
(29:08):
that nature, and that it wasbipartisan support in this
backed strategy for the stateand all very interesting stuff.
So that summed to a fascinatingstory.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
You mentioned to me where we're going now, to the
heart of town where mcdonald'stried to set up yes, in the
heart of burlington, theirdowntown mcdonald's Downtown
McDonald's some years ago wasnot being sufficiently supported
(29:40):
to be viable as it was and thebuilding now hosts a direct
farm-to-table restaurant andit's slightly typical and rather
iconic of how the public moveshere typical and rather iconic
of how the public moves herethat they'd support a
farm-to-table rather than aMcDonald's in their main
downtown location.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Oh, it's such a wonderful symbol, let alone
physical enterprise.
I have to say so, yeah, lookingforward to this.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
I have to see it.
So, yeah, looking forward tothis.
Alright, let's go and checkthis out.
Let's go to Macca's.
Let's go to Macca's.
They lost the franchise.
I can't quite remember what thetipping point was for these
guys, but it might be that awaiter or a waitress can can
(30:39):
tell us they should almost havethe story.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
They really should have the story somewhere public,
because it's a great story onthe surface and you know we
don't need to know the specificsnecessarily.
I just rejoice even in the factit's here instead of a
mcdonald's.
We could do.
You want to?
Speaker 1 (30:50):
grab a coffee or a beer or something.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Sounds good, mate.
Great idea.
Should we do that?
Yeah, great idea, and we caneven look it up.
You're right, maybe evensomeone who serves us will know
they might just know it's likeour way in.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Are you hungry at all or just?
Speaker 2 (31:06):
grab a beverage, yeah , Should we sit down I can go
either way, should we sit downand get a menu?
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Yeah, sounds good.
Hi, two of us.
Two of us, yes, please, andwe're hoping that somebody can
tell us the story of how thisbecame farmhouse from.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
McDonald's, yeah, mcdonald's.
I want to say.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
I've been around since the 90s, but I can't
remember what the tipping pointwas that switched this over.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
I think it just wasn't doing very well.
And then they tried to build adrive-thru, but then the city
decided not to allow drive-thrusand in 2010 this opened as
Barnhouse.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
It's so good.
I host a podcast from Australiaand when I heard heard about
this, it's just such a greatsymbol, let alone so funny.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Yeah, from a mcdonald's to a farm to table
burger joint.
I know it's funny we still havesome of the mcdonald's tiles
like downstairs in the prepkitchen really yeah, it's funny
that's brilliant there.
There's a spot, manhattan'sPizzeria, that used to be a
Wendy's and as far as I knowthey still have the Wendy's fry
(32:17):
press to hand cut the fries.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Even better, you keep it.
That's how it's there.
There almost needs to be aplaque out front A plaque.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Yeah, we run out us being friendly.
We've got a lot of like chainson him here, Like there was a
Starbucks that closed, there wasa Five Guys that didn't stay
very long.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
Music to my ears.
This is recording.
Do you mind if I include thisin the podcast?
Speaker 3 (32:43):
What's your name?
I'm Kate Reid.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
Thanks a lot, Kate.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
Of course, inside or outside.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Oh, if there's outside, that's fine.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Yeah, that's awesome.
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