The Land Whisperer, Patrick MacManaway: The spiritualist doctor behind a global wave of regeneration

Episode Transcript
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Patrick (00:00):
So that's what I was doing was I was having a good
hard think.
However, what's clear from whathappened then is the plants
understood me.
Even though it was an internalthought, they telepathically
received the message.
Secondly, they understood itand had capacity to change

(00:20):
themselves and, thirdly, theychanged themselves at my request
, for our convenience, tosupport the people living in
that landscape.
And those three things puttogether.
Frankly, first few times ithappened to me, it was so
mind-blowing I really prettymuch went to bed for three days

(00:40):
until the world reorganizeditself.

AJ (01:12):
You might remember a previous guest on this podcast
by the name of Terry McCosker.
Terry co-founded anorganisation called RCS
Australia some 35 years ago.
Fellow Australian legend andalso a guest and dear friend of
this podcast is best-sellingauthor of Call of the Reed
Warbler, Charles Massey.
In that book he wrote 'when Ilook back over the rise of

(01:37):
regenerative agriculture inAustralia, I see at the
forefront Terry and Pam McCoskerand their RCS organisation.
Today it remains a world leaderin the field.
' In light of that, I titled theepisode with Terry, Behind the
Greatest RegenerativeAgriculture Movement in
Australia.
Well, as I got to know Terrybetter over the years, I started

(01:59):
to hear more and more about abloke named Patrick MacManaway,
who Terry had been working withsince 2010.
And Charles later shared withme his missing chapter from Reed
Warbler, the one deemed alittle too edgy to include at
the time.
Patrick features significantlyin that chapter, along with some
now famous stories of hisfather.

(02:20):
So as the years went by, Ibecame increasingly interested
in learning about the manalongside the man behind the
movement, all the more knowingthat Patrick's extraordinary
influence is far from limited toAustralia.
Born in Scotland to pioneeringparents.
hen Patrick realised he sharedhis father's gifts, he also

(02:43):
shared his medical trainingbefore his calling deepened and
spread around the UK on to NorthAmerica and beyond.
G'day Anthony James.
ere for The RegenNarration,your independent,
listener-supported portal intothe regenerative era.
With thanks to generouslisteners like Mark Kowald, Dave

(03:05):
Godden and Steven at urbangreen space.
Thanks, men, for being paidsubscribers for over three years
now, making all this possible.
If you're not yet part of thisgreat community of supporting
listeners, I'd love you to joinus.
Get benefits if you like andhelp keep the show on the road.
Just follow the links in theshow notes.
As always, with my enormousgratitude, I caught up with

(03:29):
Patrick at his home nearBurlington, Vermont, in the fall
last year.
Yep, this unique episode calledfor some time sifting through
the hours of material wegathered in one long sunny day
together.
We start in Patrick's garden,journey to a couple of locations
where Patrick has worked, afarm to table restaurant that

(03:52):
replaced McDonald's.
hen we're full circle back tothe garden for a few more of
Patrick's most memorable storiesand news of his next endeavour,
recently launched with TerryMcCosker, before he takes us out
with a little tune.
G'day Patrick.

Patrick (04:10):
AJ, pleasure to meet you.
Pleasure to meet you.
Thanks for having us at yourhouse.
Thank you so much for makingthe journey here to northern
Vermont.

AJ (04:17):
And here we are out back of your place.
So I gather this is your block,but there's no sort of fences
between neighbours and stuffaround here, eh.

Patrick (04:27):
The Americans have quite an open plan approach to
their yards and gardens.
I've found, I've noticed.

AJ (04:33):
In.

Patrick (04:33):
Europe.

AJ (04:34):
We make sure we've got fences around Often Australia
too, though Some are bringingthem down deliberately.
You know to just well not feellike you're imprisoning yourself
as much as anything, as much aswildlife or anything else,
there's always the matter ofrabbits and groundhogs and
vegetables.

Patrick (04:51):
But no, we define the edge with trees and flowers, and
where you stop mowing is aboutthe edge of it, that's cool.

AJ (05:02):
So we're looking at a little gathering circle around fire.
I imagine you might use this alittle.

Patrick (05:08):
We do, either for family cookouts or, sometimes,
gatherings with a moreparticular focus.
There's a men's group thatmeets here every couple of weeks
and likes to light a fire andthen visiting dignitaries such
as yourself being entertainedVery good.

AJ (05:30):
Yeah, is gardening.
Do you manage to get veryhands-on given your schedule?

Patrick (05:37):
No, and, as you can see , there's hours of weeding
waiting to be done, so I'mhoping you guys are going to
give me a hand pulling weedslater on this afternoon.

AJ (05:48):
A 10-year-old doesn't mind getting put to work, thankfully.

Patrick (05:52):
No, but it's just a pleasure.
I travel too much to keep ontop of it.

AJ (05:56):
Has that been a dilemma for you?
I'm curious in terms of howmuch you get to embody your
accrued knowledge and wisdomover time versus taking, let's
just say, a global approach andhelping others.
Has that been a tension for you?
Have you sort of longed attimes to be more grounded in
your place, or this is well andtruly your calling?

Patrick (06:19):
Yes and yes, both AJ.
I'm very much a homebody and Ihate to leave wherever I am.

AJ (06:27):
Is that?

Patrick (06:27):
right, but circumstances of my work and
profession have required me togo a lot where people are
obviously working on places.
I mean not entirely.
I can and do do a lot of worklong distance using maps and

(06:47):
photographs, google Earth, andso forth now has revolutionized
that Don't have to work off ofpaper maps anymore.
So quite a lot of my clients infact I can serve without a
physical on-site visit.
But historically and still bypreference, a physical on-site
visit but historically and stillby preference, um, being in

(07:09):
location, meeting the clients,seeing and feeling what the
concerns are, is preferable.
So yeah, it is a bit of a lifeon the road, um and but uh, I
grew up in scotland and Ivisited vermont here in 1984
first, so in a way I'm alwayscoming home when I travel.
Either way Either way, and thenAustralia has just been such a

(07:32):
pleasure since 2010, when TerryMcCosker and RCS included my
work in their programming.
How did that encounter comeabout in their programming?
How did that encounter comeabout?
So I was brought in as one oftheir international speakers for
their 2010 20th anniversaryconference there you go.

AJ (07:56):
So we were just talking about their 30th that, due to
COVID, you missed and so wedidn't meet there Right, but a
pivotal moment then was their20th for you.

Patrick (08:04):
Their 20th was my introduction both to Australia
and RCS and Marg Bridgeford atthe time was CEO and with help
from Peter Downey who wasbringing resonant kinesiology
into the RCS community, theytracked me down at the time I
was president of the BritishSociety of Dowsers Because

(08:27):
they'd been running coursesalong these lines, as I
understand it, for about eightyears prior.

AJ (08:34):
I think they'd been running the quantum agriculture umbrella
stuff.

Patrick (08:39):
The quantum started with me, did it Right OK, under
that branding, but I thinkthey'd had presentations from
different dowsers.
Alana Moore is a verywell-known and well-published
practitioner of this stuff.
She now lives in Europe.

(09:00):
She's Australian by birth andshe'd given presentations and
they had a couple of otherpeople also do that.
And then they got very muchinto the human health based
resonant kinesiology work andknew there was a bridge but
wanted somebody to create aprogram of specifically the

(09:25):
subtle energy inside ofagricultural context.
Was how I got my invite andsubsequently they kept on
bringing me back.

AJ (09:39):
That's very interesting, considering your path, where the
human health bridged out to theland.
Let's come back to that.
I'm almost sorry to leave thisbecause I have felt a lovely
vibe here, as, with the sounds,and notwithstanding the trains
and the cars and other things,there's this beautiful little

(10:00):
hum of life where we stand.
But we've got a couple ofdestinations to hit up that are
relevant to the story too.
So shall we do it lovely?
So I see your car of choice isan equinox.
Was that deliberate destiny?

Patrick (10:23):
yeah, that that that was the last car.
It got long in the tooth andexpensive, so I gave it to David
and now it's waiting for morerepair.
This was Heather's dad's car.
He went into a nursing home andthis was in the family.

AJ (10:44):
So you're picking up the story with your arrival in
Vermont.
What brought you to Vermont inthe first place.
That was nearly 40,.

Patrick (10:52):
Well, I guess, yeah, 40 years ago 1984 was the first
visit, so very simple, aj.
The American Society of Dowsersis based here in Vermont and
dowsing was a central practicein my family's work, mostly

(11:15):
using it for well, using itreally for everything, from
figuring out if the bread wasready to come out of the oven or
which was the best horse or carto buy, or routes or timing or
planning.
So dowsing was very central tothe families, just life and

(11:37):
process.
But in a professional contextit for diagnostic assessment and
therapeutic protocols.

AJ (11:50):
Because that had been in a center for such things.
What was it called?
Again, your family practice,yes.

Patrick (11:57):
My parents set up the West Bank Healing and Teaching
Center in 1959 on a little farmin rural Scotland.
At the time it was very unusualbecause of the legacy of the
witchcraft laws to be practisingbe practicing mediumship,

(12:22):
divination and spiritual healingoutside of uh, the ordained and
it had been illegal then it hadbeen illegal under the
witchcraft laws and then thatchanged.
I think in 1952 we got thefraudulent mediums act, which

(12:43):
finally allowed us to bemediumistic and intuitive as
long as we weren't fraudulent.
It seems like a very good andsensible piece of legislation.

AJ (12:55):
That's very interesting.
Our young fella of course askedyou what's witchcraft at the
table just before when a bit ofthis came up.
But I might run with the samequestion for people who only
know in a sense the stereotypesor the legacy of that period.

Patrick (13:11):
Yes, well, I think the big picture is, um, I think
probably for 99.9 percent of ourour history, all around the
world we've effectively beenwhat we might call animist and
there's been very much anawareness of the intelligence

(13:34):
not only of our own ancestralcommunity of spirit but also of
the spirits of place, the geniusloci for the Greeks, the
particular quality ofintelligence of rock and
mountain and stream and soil,and whether we're looking at

(13:59):
sort of hunting-gatheringcommunities or whether we're
looking at agriculturalcommunities, the communication
with the governing intelligenceof landscape has always been
primary for survival.
In Scotland back in the day,the Celtic kings of whom Macbeth

(14:21):
was one, of whom Macbeth wasone those were really not so
much positions of arbitraryexecutive authority.
The kingship was electedtypically by women and chosen

(14:45):
from senior sages and druids,and their job was of an
ambassadorial nature.
So equinoxes, solstices,cross-quarter days, times of
significant serial times ofsignificant transition and
change in the landscape, movingbetween spring and autumn,

(15:09):
winter and so forth, whoever wason the job, the King of
Scotland would have to go up tothe central sacred mountain,
shehalion, the hall of the queenof the she, the she of the
landscape intelligences.
We would call them fairy, butthey're not petite tinkerbell,

(15:33):
they're sort of 45, 40 foot high, shining beings and a bit
intimidating when you encounterthem.
So, but literally, macbeth andhis predecessors job was to, in
meditation, in communion, invision, we assume, with fasting,

(15:58):
possibly with the use of flyagaric mushroom, which is fly
agaric and psilocybin are bothused for trance inducing in the
Celtic countries.
So, but his job was tocommunicate with this
overarching landscapeintelligence and literally come

(16:20):
down the mountain, sort of mosesstyle, with a script of how
many deer could be taken and howmany fish could be taken and
what the planting and harvestingdates would be.
Because back in the day wedidn't have Google, we didn't
have Almanacs, we didn't havelibrary, we really didn't have

(16:42):
any written historical record,so your only source of
information was anticipation andexperience.
And so they really did want toknow what their grandparents and
great-grandparents had donelast time they had a flood like

(17:03):
this or a frost like this or aplant illness like this, and so
their only strategy was tocommunicate with tribal
ancestors and the spirits ofplace, to follow in accord and
guidance so that the wells wouldbe full and the cattle would be

(17:24):
fat and, as they say here inAmerica, all the women would be
strong and the men good lookingand the children above average.

AJ (17:35):
You know you made the Moses allusion before.

Patrick (17:39):
It is striking that these archetypes of mythology
recur across cultures and whenyou think about relying on your
ancestry for knowledge, the waysthat that's been left behind in
some cultures my culture, ourculture, maybe modern Western

(18:02):
Enlightenment culture thatthat's been left behind but that
it was a universal experienceand remains well yeah, in our
ancestry, if not in our DNA, itis and because of being raised
in a space where that wasordinary, my sort of go-to

(18:28):
support team includes companionangels and mum and dad variously
, and also a number of otherfriends and colleagues, as well
as genetic linear ancestry, whoare available to help and help

(18:49):
out in all manner of what wewould consider miraculous ways
because they're for usnon-linear, non-logical.
But to not be including yourfriends in high places on your
power team is seriously missinga trick.

AJ (19:12):
That, I think, is dawning on many more of us.
It might be worth saying, givenwe're in the car, so we're
passing a university.
I'm told it's a university town.
Are we passing?

Patrick (19:21):
City University.
This is it.
This is the University ofVermont.
Very gracious and elegantbuildings.
Here is the University ofVermont.
Very gracious and elegantbuildings here at the top of the
hill, yeah, and awash withactivity, because it may even be
the first day of semester.
Very close to it.
I think they went back on acouple of days ago.
Okay, yes, so we're full ofeager and well-intentioned young

(19:44):
learners here.

AJ (19:46):
You get a glimpse of the hope of youth darting about the
Knowledge Centre as we have it,and on a lovely sunny day and,
yeah, a bit of traffic, we'restuck in, but it gives us time
to talk.
So maybe it's a good junctureto follow that thread through
some ancestry and go back alittle further and how.

(20:08):
This was how this did become anormal part of your life.
Where did it start?

Patrick (20:15):
in your family, uh, in my family.
I can't quite trace it back, aj.
What I know is my Irishgrandmother was deeply into it,
but at this point both myparents as well as grandparents
have passed.
So I now would really like tosit down and have a good old

(20:35):
chat and find where did thatcome from in her life?
Was it an unbroken traditionrunning in a female lineage, or
was she particularly gifted orcurious as a result?

(21:01):
But certainly, um, she was partof what's now the White Eagle
Lodge, which is a society ofspiritual enlightenment and
healing that still continues tothis day and formed in the early
part of the 1900s around amedium called Grace Cook.
She apparently had a connectionwith a Native American old soul

(21:27):
who went by the name of WhiteEagle.
It's the White Eagle Lodge andthere was a huge amount of
spiritualism being practiced inthe late 1800s and early 1900s
Illegal technically in Britainunder witchcraft laws, but very

(21:47):
open here in the US, with a lotof summer camps for
spiritualists.
And that was a thing you wentand did you know for your summer
holiday was camp by a lake witha bunch of other spiritualists

(22:09):
and talked to all your friendsand family in spirit.
So in my family it was just agiven, and my father went off as
a 19-year-old with the BritishExpeditionary Force at the
beginning of the war in Europein 1939 and found himself

(22:38):
fighting rearguard defencearound the perimeter of Dunkirk
while troops were evacuated fromthe beaches.
And at that point he wasspontaneously moved, put his
hand on wounded comrades.
They had no opportunity formedical supplies or medical

(23:00):
evacuation, so he just put hishands on people and, to his
amazement, was able to stopbleeding and give pain relief
and indeed keep people, keeppeople alive.
The main killer, I think, isbattlefield shock from trauma

(23:20):
and blood loss in thosecircumstances.
So, so he was completely amazedthat, sure enough, just like it
says on the box, we've all gota gift of healing and when
circumstances arise to call itout, then it's there.
But he was still surprisedthere.

(23:42):
But he was still surprised.
I think it was amazing.
He'd obviously grown up withthose concepts, but perhaps in a
more sort of abstract and sortof sitting room conversation
fashion, rather than in the rawheat of the moment when nothing

(24:06):
else would work and only thatcould serve.
So he then cultivated for thenext 20 years through training
and apprenticeships withdifferent psychics and healers.
I think most notably agentleman called Harry Edwards

(24:28):
who was a preeminent spiritualhealer in the first half of the
1900s in the UK and Dad was botha patient and a trainee of
Harry's of Harry's and then, asI think now being of psychic

(25:08):
ability in a number ofsituations During campaigns I
know across North Africa theyhad nightly seances amongst the
officers to help them establishenemy troop positions and
numbers in the absence ofsatellite or other aerial
reconnaissance.

(25:32):
He was involved in studies wherethey doused the noon position
of naval warships at sea tocheck on the accuracy of that.
There were studies of that.
Yeah, apparently they wereabsolutely dead accurate.
You could find a designatedwarship at sea wherever it was.

(25:57):
And then quietly the use ofdowsing to find and then
subsequently disable landmines.
And I know that those werethings that he was personally
involved in and I know the sortof extent of military uses of

(26:20):
both dowsing and psychicpractices are extensive.
Both dowsing and psychicpractices are extensive,
although often quite quietlydone, yeah, but use of remote
viewing was big, I think for awhile, and so he was in the army
for 20 years.
He was a military brat.

(26:41):
His dad had been a careerofficer and he'd been all the
way through military collegefrom, I think, aged eight until
19, so it was his life and hishis media but conversely then
not yours, because by then thecenter was up and running and I
grew up with it.
yes, no, it was.
It was gurus for breakfast andlamas for lunch, because it was

(27:07):
the first of its day.
And so people came from Tibetand America and Scandinavia to
visit and study and they ranconferences and workshops and
took apprentices.
We had up to eight full-timelive-in apprentices for a while.

(27:28):
Marvellous as you can imagine.
Fascinating Kitchen table chats.

AJ (27:36):
So these are your very young years.
Then Do you recall like thisthat was my growing up.

Patrick (27:43):
Yeah, as far as I knew, that was normal.

AJ (27:46):
Yeah, well, when did you recognize that you were indeed
carrying this ability as well?

Patrick (27:54):
I grew up fascinated by it and immersed in it and,
frankly, very much hoped that Icould do it too.
As you would I can well imagine, and my plan was to join the
family's business and wecertainly learned skills and

(28:17):
worked on each other and animalsand so on, just growing up.
But honestly, until one'sreally in a situation of applied
need, then that's when you getto see whether the thing really

(28:37):
works nicely or not.

AJ (28:39):
When did that come for you?

Patrick (28:42):
So I was encouraged to take a degree in medicine before
going into the holistictherapies field, partly for
training, partly for subsequentissues of licensing and
insurance and so on.
So I went through medicalschool and got my basic medical

(29:08):
license and then at that point Itook a year out to really focus
on what part of the field wasmost interesting to me.
And I was really fascinated byenvironmental health and working
with places and the effects ofthose had on the people living

(29:33):
there.
And at the time the WorldHealth Organization had released
statistics declaring that 30%of our buildings were sick
buildings, based on a criteriaof 20% or more of the occupants
having health or comfortproblems arising directly from
the location.
And there's seven or eightthings on that list, including

(30:00):
air quality, light quality,sound quality.
But studies from Germany in the1920s and 70s done by dowsers
had shown a very strongcorrelation with human health
and something called geopathicstress.

(30:21):
And geopathic stress ariseswhen something natural to the
site is stressful for health,the most classic of which is
water running in undergroundstreams or faults or fractures

(30:45):
and fissures, and because wateris the most electrically
conductive material in thelandscape.
Over a strong undergroundstream, the Earth's natural
geomagnetic field expressesitself in a slightly more
exaggerated and sometimesaggressive way, but also it acts

(31:08):
as a pathway for atmosphericelectromagnetism going to ground
.
So for hundreds, probablythousands of years, for hundreds

(31:39):
, probably thousands of years,we'd known to avoid sleeping or
building our houses or puttingour animals close, confined in
locations where undergroundwater was there a study in 1928
by a Bavarian dowser calledBaron Gustav Freer von Pol.
He dowsed for people, for wells, but in the process of walking
the landscape to see where thewater runs, he observed several

(32:02):
things.
He observed that mammals andbirds avoided sleeping over them
or nesting over them entirely,and you'd have birds nests in an
overhanging Eve, one in eachrafter, and then a gap where
there was no nest.
And then he would pick up againand the dowsing rods showed
indeed that there was anunderground stream just cutting

(32:23):
under that location.
So mammals avoided them, birdsavoided them, but insects very
attracted to them and ants andbees and wasps would selectively
and deliberately nest over them.
So he observed this speciespreference and also observed the

(32:45):
same in plants.
Some plants were very adverselyaffected, especially fruit
trees and vegetables that cameto a head above ground brussels
sprouts, kohlrabi, things ofthat nature whereas some of our
medicinal plants really thrivedthings of that nature, whereas

(33:07):
some of our medicinal plantsreally thrived.
So this was a curiosity.
And he did a study in a towncalled Wilsbeberg on a tributary
of the Rhine.
At the time had three and ahalf thousand people and he'd
previously doused municipalwells for them and asked if he
could do a health-related study.
So with various German burgershe went around the whole town

(33:37):
and mapped out where all thewater ran and specifically if
and when it ran under people'shouses and then especially if it
ran under their beds, people'shouses and then especially if
they run under their beds.
And then they compared thatstudy with the available records
of death by cancer, which wentback to 1918.

(34:02):
This was 28, so they had 10years still of statistics and
they found that every single oneof 52 people who had been
documented as dying of acancerous illness had been
sleeping over one of theseunderground streams.
So that was a real awakener forme as somebody interested in

(34:25):
health and particularlyinterested in being outdoors and
the environmental aspects.
I'd just say, in terms of thatstudy, it was 1928, before we
had all the carcinogens that wenow have in our environment and
diet, so it was possibly a studythat would be hard that we now

(34:47):
have in our environment and diet, so it was possibly a study
that would be hard to replicatenow in terms of isolating causes
and we also don't know from thestudy how many people were
sleeping over undergroundstreams and didn't die from
cancer.
So it's not a complete medicalstudy in that way, but a 100%
association of if you want todie by cancer, then you need to

(35:10):
find yourself an environmental,a geopathic stress was certainly
, in my mind, worth exploringand sat very beautifully in

(35:34):
exploring and sat verybeautifully in the space of
natural health, dowsing andmedicine.
So it was a bit ideal for me.
Doesn't look, doesn't look.
How do you block this?
There we go.
So, progressing that theme ofhuman health in environmental

(35:58):
context and starting to workwith people whose health was
being affected adversely bytheir homes, I got to build up
quite a lot of experience withwhat sort of patterns fitted,
what kind of illnesses and whatthe mix of influences were.

(36:21):
Influences were so air, soundand light, but beyond that then,
the presence or absence of thisenergies, of human thoughts and

(36:49):
feelings, very colouring of theatmosphere, with or without the
presence of earthbound spirits,of ghosts in a place, with or
without overshadowing of cursesthat might have been put onto a
place with malevolent intention.

(37:11):
And then, as you get deeperinto it, literally whether the
spirit of place recognizes itscurrent identity and use and the

(37:33):
intentions of the people livingthere.
Because if a place is fullyappraised of what the people are
up to, the natural inclinationis, to the extent that it can,
to support us, whether that's ingrowing the best field of
carrots or having the mostdelightful restaurant experience

(37:58):
or commercial, domestic,agricultural.
Once the elemental consciousnessis clearly, is clear and
without residual stresses andtraumas, and then has clear
communication as to what thepeople are up to, then you've

(38:19):
really got a sort of workingteam, a marriage between people
and place really got a sort ofworking team, a marriage between
people in place, because ourmind spans at least four octaves
of consciousness, the so-calledbeta, alpha, theta and delta,

(38:45):
from 36 waves per second down tozero.
And beta is our cognitivelinear frequency set, and then
below that, alpha is whereplants and animals basically are
having their communications,and then below that, theta is

(39:10):
where the elemental realm hasits cognitive consciousness.
So we embrace all of those are.
Western mind has been trainedinto rational linear
consciousness exclusively and sowe can miss out on all of the

(39:33):
um.
So, particularly for anelemental, uh, they're aware of
the presence of a human mind,but they can't read our mind if
we're in beta.
So it's like being a diverunderwater looking up at the
shadow of a boat on the surface.
Is it a fishing boat?
Is it a warship?
Is it?
kids out for a picnic?

(39:54):
Don't know.
We know that they're there, butunless they bridge into that
elemental theta consciousness,they can't perceive our
intention.
And so what we look to do isidentify, communicate with and

(40:16):
create cooperative agreements,basically with those
intelligences of place.
And it's a slightly differentconversation whether it's a farm
or a or shopping mall orsomebody's home, but it's
effectively the sameconversation.
It's.
It's just a conversation ofcommunication and agreement, and
we start by healing any hurtsthat are present in the

(40:38):
landscape and then we get intocommunications and then, as
required, we can optimize withsound or homeopathy or
biodynamics or radionics, etc.
Stem circles such as the onewe're about to see, to really

(40:58):
fine-tune like a musicalinstrument so that the harmonics
of the space are optimum forits currently dedicated use and
purpose.

AJ (41:11):
Perfect segue.
Let's go to the stone circle.
What an incredibly wonderfulday we have landed on.

(41:31):
It's almost too good to be truenot a lick of wind pure
sunshine, lovely temperature.
I guess it's probably 20 degreesCelsius, so 70 odd Fahrenheit,
lovely.
You know what you were justsaying there, patrick,
fascinates me on so many levels.

(41:53):
But I think immediately even ofthe scientific base, speaking
of that cognitive linear line,although it's grappling with how
not to be limited by that too,now, isn't it?
But I guess, through that,partly the science of
epigenetics and how it's lookingat what we carry in terms of

(42:13):
those human stories andtransmissions, uh, and wounds,
certainly uh.
And you know, even when youmentioned light and sound, like
getting so much more across theeffects of light pollution,
sound pollution, and we've cometo tag like this because there's

(42:34):
just such an excess of thesethings in what we've considered
good societies to build, justflooded with light and sound and
obviously fair whack of airpollution too.
So it's interesting to me thatthe Western field of science and
medicine seems to be cottoningon.

(42:56):
Do you interpret it like thattoo?

Patrick (42:59):
Cottoning on to the influence of consciousness, I
think it depends which way youlook, aj, and possibly, possibly
, which payroll you're on.
Yeah.

(43:21):
We had the HeisenbergUncertainty Principle and the
Double Slit Experiment in the1950s already.
That was 70 years ago now andthe observer effect and the
inevitable impact of ourconsciousness on circumstance
and environment has sort ofremained as a curiosity and an

(43:45):
inconvenience to science ratherthan, I think, being fully
embraced and reintegrated intoour traditional awareness of the
literal and real impact ofintentionality of prayer, of
simple communications.
Intentionality of prayer ofsimple communications.

(44:08):
Maybe it's too difficult tocontrol that process.

AJ (44:15):
In some ways I wonder if indeed we shouldn't worry too
much about that, like, in asense, leave the more controlled
experiment, double-blind stuff,et cetera, to science.
Just don't interpret it as theultimate or only form of

(44:36):
knowledge.
Just say, ok, that's what thatmethod's finding and this is
what this method's finding, andyou can sort of just cross notes
, but don't seek necessarily tobend one into the other.
What do you think?

Patrick (44:49):
um, I think that the world is not really divided into
different sets of truths yeah Ithink our knowledge is more
concentric, and any truth needsto include all other truths, and

(45:09):
so if we have a conflictbetween science and experience,
then what that tells us is thatour science is not any more
science but has become doctrinal.
But the true spirit of scienceis to open-mindedly advance

(45:30):
hypotheses to attempt to explainall observable phenomena, and
the so-called science we havenow is almost more reminiscent
of dare.
I say the worst of the CatholicInquisition periods, where

(45:51):
non-believers or non-conformistsare discredited, their
influence marginalized and theirwork and laboratories destroyed
.
So I'm very reluctant to givethe term science or scientist to

(46:16):
narrow technological doctrines,whereas really if a thing is
perceived and observed reliablyand consistently over thousands
of years, chances are there's apremium in the middle of it.

AJ (46:36):
You know speaking of which First Nations here I mean I
noted before with the WhiteEagle Lodge.
So, going back in your ancestry, there is this connection to
here.
I mean I don't know if it'shere here, but this continent,
turtle Island, interesting thatyou should find yourself with a
second home, of sorts.
I mean, if you call it nowanother home here on Turtle

(46:57):
Island, given that ancestry, isit a connection you felt since
you've been here or experiencedin any way?

Patrick (47:05):
I felt at home in Vermont as soon as I arrived
here, and it's it'sgeographically, geologically,
very similar to Scotland.
Yes, but I think there is alsosome kind of some kind of trail
of something.
A character called ChogyamTrungpa was one of the first

(47:29):
lamas out of Tibet.

AJ (47:30):
Indeed, we went to Naropa University in Colorado.

Patrick (47:38):
Well, his first effort was Sammy Ling in Scotland, and
before he did that and while hewas doing that, he was a
frequent visitor at my family'shome.
I was too little to rememberanything about that, but there's
stories of going for a walkwith Trumpa and it starting to
rain and sitting down and Trumpadoing his thing in a six-foot

(48:01):
dry zone around the sitterswhile the rain passed over for
half an hour and then, once therain had gone away, they stood
up and kept walking.
This is so interesting.
Well, so he did Scotland, andthen he came to Vermont and he
set up Karmacholing, and then hewent to Boulder and set up

(48:24):
Naropa before, I think, think,finally going up to is it
newfoundland?
Yeah, I can't remember.
You're right, but I've donescotland, vermont and boulder in
his footsteps, so I wonder ifthere isn't yes, you do wonder
threads of connection andresonances between sympathetic
landscapes.

AJ (48:45):
You so do wonder.
And with First Nations here,whose land are we on?
Let's start with that.

Patrick (48:51):
First Nations here.
Vermont not got a good historywith that.
The people here were the Stillthe Mohican up there Abenaki.

AJ (49:00):
Abenaki, mohican, right there, right In the Adirondacks,
on the west side of the lakeRight and then down to where
we've come from in the south ofVermont as well, I believe Right
but here we have Abenakiwoodland Indians and they were
never recognised and a treatywas never made with them.

Patrick (49:21):
They were acknowledged only, I think, 10 years ago,
under Governor Peter Shumlin'speriod in office, and recognised
that they existed.

AJ (49:34):
Which is sorry but wonderful , At least something that wasn't
there before.
Yes, yeah.
And for you any connections inyour 40 years here.

Patrick (49:48):
Very few.
They mostly quietly do theirown thing, keep to themselves
because they don't havedesignated lands.
A lot of them here took Frenchnames and disappeared into the
woods Is that right?
And just sort of becameinvisible.
I think they got quite heavilyChristianised to some degree,

(50:09):
took French names anddisappeared into the woods Is
that right?
And just sort of becameinvisible.
I think they got quite heavilyChristianised to some degree.
And of course the hunting andgathering and permaculture
lifestyle that they enjoyed isnot possible now with land
ownership as it is currently so.

AJ (50:21):
it's a very sad story, and just while I think of it,
speaking of the christianelement, somebody told me that
your dad ended up doing work forthe pope too.
Is that right?

Patrick (50:36):
yes, uh, uh, not working directly for the pope
that.
So Dad was doing his healingand mediumship around the edges
and the army was very tolerantand found it quite useful.
But he ended up as a NATO superspecialist in amphibious

(50:56):
landings and taking beachheads.
So he would be loaned aroundthe NATO countries to help train
their commando and assaultforces.
And his favourite posting,which happened three times, was
to Italy, because he wasbig-time whiny and foodie and
that was where he loved to be,but as a visiting dignitary

(51:22):
Visiting dignitary, buttechnically, I guess.
Episcopalian Church of England,yes, the regimental padres
didn't want to tell him hecouldn't do this in a Catholic
country because of thecircumstance and so, rather than
say no, they kept.
Each time he went they passedthe buck up to somebody in a

(51:46):
higher office and on threeoccasions he got approval from
the papal office that it wasfine he could do his healing as
a visiting military officer andthat wouldn't upset anybody, you
guys, sanctioned by the Pope.
He was rather tickled, I think,at that, but it obviously was

(52:08):
very circumstantial.

AJ (52:09):
Yes, it's interesting though , when we think of that.
You know you drew the analogyto the Inquisition and my
upbringing and my father'sbefore me and what we're
learning in Australia nowthrough various royal
commissions about the sordidinstitutional behaviours you
know.
Again, bless the people.

(52:29):
Amongst them I mean my uncle,who went with my father for a
while before my father leftChristian Brotherhood.
My uncle saw it through tillhis death and did it beautifully
and affected lives.
I still hear back from peoplein Perth wow, your uncle was a
legend, you know, shaped my life.
That sort of thing.
Beautiful stuff's there andit's why people still believe in

(52:53):
it.
But, my goodness, theinstitutional abuse to levels
that you don't even want to knowabout.
They're so harrowing just toeven imagine, let alone
experience.

Patrick (53:07):
Why and how we do what we do is one of our deep
questions.
Horrifying what happened inAustralia, and that was one
genocidal land grab.
Scotland we had like 12.
Really.
Because we had whoever theNeolithic farmers were, and then

(53:29):
they get kicked out by theBronze Age guys, and then they
get kicked out by the Iron Ageguys, and then they get kicked
out by the Romans.
And then they get kicked out bythe Romans, and then they get
kicked out by the Vikings, andthen they get kicked out by the
Anglo-Saxons.
And then, when there's nothingbetter to do, they fight amongst

(53:51):
themselves over distinctions ofreligion, whether it's
Protestant, catholic or the manysects of Protestantism, and
then finally, they burn theirown people off the land for an
agricultural revolution and putthem on ships and substitute
people for sheep.
So Scotland, almost more thanany nation, has perfected the

(54:16):
art of genocidal land grabs.
But what it is in our part ofus, hey, and then, and then that
part.

AJ (54:29):
I mean this relates to us all carrying indigeneity, let's
say just for a bit of word, andthe wounds of these experiences.
I mean this is whereaustralians came from in the
first instance of settlers wasthe UK Mine Irish and English
and many others Scottish, sothat we're connected to this and

(54:55):
I guess in that sense we shareso much, don't we?
For the best and worst ofeverything, we share so much as
humans.

Patrick (55:05):
If we do, it really is a global family uh but that the
separate way, the separationaway from animism in um.
Looking at sustainable versusnon-sustainable cultures I speak
of this first up every time Ilecture.
So this is totally so, butlooking at the paradigms between

(55:29):
sustainable and non-sustainablecultures, it seems to me
there's just two things thatwe've gone astray with.
The first is our relationshipwith time, and sustainable
cultures run circular time, andso this is obvious for farmers,

(55:50):
it's always going to be spring,it's always going to be
harvesting, it's always going tobe spring, it's always going to
be harvesting.
And so you're always repeatinga now moment, and every time you
do it, you get it better.
Maybe we put a little morefertilizer or a little more
moisture or a little morecompost, or we wait a little, or
plant the rows, a differentspacing.
So we're always doing the samething better, but there's

(56:13):
nowhere to go, there's nowhereto run, there's nowhere to hide,
it's just it's going to be nowagain.
Next time it's now, and so it.
Circular time puts you intopresent moment and brings your
awareness very much into what'shappening around you and how to
relate to it in an optimumfashion.
Linear time puts us into adeferment pattern where we

(56:39):
believe that what we really wantis never going to be here now,
but it's going to be there then,and so we chase down the road
to try and get more money, morepower, more sex, more notoriety,
more whatever it is that ourinsecurities drive us to want
more of.
But it takes us out of the hereand now and it projects us into

(57:01):
some anticipated future versionof ourselves, into some
anticipated future version ofourselves.
It also, in a linear model,holds the fantasy of eternal
growth and so, as we know, ourcountry's economies are.
The health is supposed to bereflective of the rate of growth

(57:21):
.
So the economy is healthier thefaster it's growing.
But if we walk that out and ifwe put that into a medical
context, that is by definitioncancer.
So something that eternallygrows without being matched,

(57:42):
mirrored, integrated into itsenvironment, is cancerous.
So by being on linear time andlinear economy, we've created a
cancerous relationship with ourlandscape, literally.
But there's lots of differentthings we could do about that.
But it's more a question of thethinking about that Lovely
classic movie, groundhog Day.

(58:04):
Yeah, is exactly that.
Yeah.

AJ (58:07):
That's why it's an adorable, beautiful.

Patrick (58:08):
The more he has to live the same day over and over
again.
He just he gets better at ituntil he's having the best day
ever and then.
And then time starts moving forhim again.
So that's the most classiccircular time sort of exposition
.
And then the second thing iswhether or not we have an
awareness of the animate natureof our environment.

(58:30):
Because if I know that I canchange the quality and volume
and standing height of water ina well by attention and prayer,
if I know that a dry spring willcome back to life, if I know

(58:50):
that I can have influence ongermination rates, biological
pest management, if I know thatI can actually have an influence
with the weather, all thequestions simply disappear.
It's not a question of whetherwe can do these things.

(59:14):
It's a question of whether wedo do these things and whether
we use them to our naturaladvantage.
And it's not a question ofhunter and gathering versus
agriculture, because we had6,500 years of fully sustainable
agriculture in Europe with allof the animism deeply and richly

(59:34):
built into it.
So it's not a question of wecan be completely sustainable
agriculturally.
Agriculture isn't anon-sustainable practice.
We practice agriculture now inmostly non-sustainable ways, but
that's not an agriculturalissue, that's an issue of
practice.
But again, if you're aware thatyour land is animate and

(59:58):
listening and responsive to you,you simply make a different set
of decisions than if you thinkit's really just a sterile petri
dish that you've got to get thechemistry right to grow the
thing on the agar plate.
So, whatever the practices,whatever the details on the
ground are on the ground are, Ithink if we can re-embrace

(01:00:24):
circular time and animateawareness, then really we've got
everything that we need.
Because we're so clever withour technology, well-used
technology, fantastic, good Lord.
The convenience, what we'redoing right now, what we're
doing right now we're doingright now, the electronic medium
, the ability to move around theworld and share thoughts and

(01:00:46):
ideas with each other, but I I,the more I look, the more I'm
I'm sure.
Really, the circular time andum, animate awareness, those,
those are the things that reallyseparate us from sustainable
versus non-sustainable.
And I'm very concerned aboutthe sort of indigenous label,

(01:01:09):
because obviously indigenousdoesn't mean anything other than
that you were born there.
We tend to have a romance ofhunter-gatherer societies versus
our own, but that's associatingwith agriculture, with
disconnection from landscape,which is not at all true, Very

(01:01:30):
interesting.

AJ (01:01:31):
For a while now it's occurred to me as almost a bit
of a chuckle that we might haveleft animistic thought, because
then by definition we'd havechosen inanimistic, like not
alive, dead.
So it sort of says it itself.
It says it itself.
If we paid attention to thelanguage, but let's turn to this

(01:01:52):
physical manifestation.

Patrick (01:01:54):
Let's look at this physical manifestation.
So, historically, agriculturein Europe starts about 6,500
years ago A little bit earlier,I think in Brittany, maybe
pushing back to 8,000.
But certainly it's going in theUK by 6,500 years ago.

(01:02:15):
And what happens initially isthey don't seem to quite get
their land management down.
The bones after a while don'tlook so good, the teeth don't
look so good on thearchaeological record.
And then they engage in thismegalithic project of putting

(01:02:36):
stone circles and hengis andstanding stones across the
landscape.
And as soon as they've donethat, all of a sudden the teeth
look better and the bones lookbetter, and you're finding
traded goods from far off placeswhich would suggest an excess
of food as the basis of um, areal economy.

AJ (01:02:57):
And so when was this?
When are we talking?

Patrick (01:03:00):
uh, we're talking.

AJ (01:03:01):
So these things start getting built around 3000 bc,
about 5000 years ago and it'sand you know, my son again
quipped earlier this morning oh,like stonehenge.

Patrick (01:03:11):
So yes, to an extent, I mean it's the sort of yes, well
, thousands of these get builtacross europe and they're
clearly built by farmers inservice of landscape fertility.
And significantly, a study donein the 90s in South America
Kajik and I'm forgetting agentleman's name Stone of

(01:03:35):
Knowledge, seed and Plenty wasthe book they wrote.
They weren't mystics or dowsers, but they saw clearly that
these stone circles werepurposeful to an agricultural
community.
So they were measuringgeomagnetism and finding always
a stronger geomagneticbackground in pyramids and stone
circles and they extrapolatedwhy this would have effect.

(01:03:58):
Anyway, one of the experimentsthey did they took indigenous
south american corn, split intotwo samples.
One half the sample went into apyramid for 72 hours before
planting and the other sampledid not.
And then they got an 80 to 85germination rate on the pyramid

(01:04:21):
corn, 25 to 30 percent on thenon-pyramid corn.
Even rate of growth, uh, crosspollination, uh.
With the pyramid corn, uneven,poor growth on the non-pyramid
corn.
Net on net they got a 300%yield increase for
pre-germination energizing oftheir seed.

(01:04:44):
And University of Vermont someyears ago the Agricultural
Extension Program did a trial inrice growing as a potential
crop here in Vermont drylandrice and they gave same samples
to five farms, one of which wasa farm that I was working with

(01:05:07):
and we built a mini stone circleand we're doing all the
germination starts in there andthe other four farms in the
trial got 25 germination rate ontheir rice and in the stone
circle we got a 100% germinationrate.
So other stories like that andnow on farms, stone circles,

(01:05:30):
australia and elsewhere, we seehow we can start to take
advantage of the energies in thelandscape.
I think a stone circle is likea magnifying glass.
I think it acts as ageomagnetic lens, and typically
the stones that are chosen to beused are high in paramagnetism,

(01:05:51):
so they're acting in a sort offocusing and concentrating way
to, I think, optimally chargeseeds and such Interesting.
This one is obviously in publicpark, so this does not have an
immediate agricultural purpose,although people do bring their

(01:06:11):
seeds here, particularly inspringtime, before gardening.
What we do do here, amongstothers, it's an open space for
the public and people use it forweddings, they use it for yoga,
they use it for kirtan, theyuse it for picnics.
It's tremendously popular andyou helped bring it in.

(01:06:33):
Yes, I trained in theconstruction and uses of sacred
space in the early 90s and thena an interest group of 30 of us
had done 10 years of thesethings on private land, but we
wanted to bring one to thecommunity and so this was a.
This was a non-profit volunteerjob.

(01:06:56):
I did the location and thevolunteer job.
I did the location and theorientation and the basic site
map and then my friend IvanMacbeth chose the stones from
the quarries and supervised theinstallation and we had
landscapers and all kinds ofhelp doing it.

AJ (01:07:17):
And the city was up for it.

Patrick (01:07:19):
The city was up for it.
They lent us equipment.
We had an opening ceremony,cutting the ribbon, with the
mayor giving it to the cityofficially.

AJ (01:07:26):
So this is cool.
I wouldn't have necessarilytaken that for granted.

Patrick (01:07:29):
We called it an educational arts installation,
and so we used neutral languageabout it.
That didn't make anybodyworried and is there a
particular way we should engagewith it about it.

AJ (01:07:41):
That didn't make anybody worried, yeah, and is there a
particular way we should engagewith it now?

Patrick (01:07:45):
So if we step into the middle here, we've called it an
earth clock.
So it works in two ways.
Firstly, this is what's calledan analemic sundial, which means
that you're the gnomon, andbecause the elevation of the sun
changes through the year, youneed to move where you stand so

(01:08:07):
you can see it's marked outmonth by month.
So we're about September 1st.
So if I stand at September 1st,I can see that this is saying
I'm just a little bit beforenoon solar time and we're on
eastern summertime.
So the time actually is by ourclocks, 12, 30 by our clocks.

(01:08:31):
There we go.
So that's fun.
And then what's happening here,also marked out on the stone,
is that these five stones showwhere the sun sets on the
mountain ridge behind the lakeas the year goes on, so it sets
this one at winter solstice, andthen this one is 1st of

(01:08:56):
February, spring equinox, march21st, beginning of May,
midsummer solstice, and it comesback.
So beginning of August,september 21st, beginning of
November, and back to winter.
So this gives us the pendulumswing of the sun through the
year and it's supposed to workfor a 5'8 person, I think.

(01:09:21):
The sun just sits like a candleflame on top of these on the
horizon at those times.
So it's plugged into itsastronomical environment.
This stone is aligned to thedeepest point in the lake, to
our lake monster Champ, one, ourlake monster champ, and then

(01:09:46):
this one with a square profileis aligned to an original
Abenaki sacred site on IleLamotte, further up the lake.
This is north and then this issouth, and these ones are all
then at 30 degrees intervals,which allows astronomical
observation.
30 degrees is our way generallyof dividing up the time.

(01:10:08):
So the idea of this.
We put it in as a peace parkunder a banner of circles for
peace, based on theunderstanding that, by the
simple witness of the cycles andrhythms of nature, inner peace
is restored in the observer soit's almost what you're saying

(01:10:30):
before time and animate timethinking yeah, there you are.
We did have.
Every year we have a lakeblessing at midsummer.
This is a very shallowlyshelving sandy beach.
You can walk a long way outbefore you get waist deep.
So with the Green Mountain,druid Order and various anybody

(01:10:55):
who wants to come midsummer, webring a great cauldron of water
and we put it here and thenthere's singing and dancing and
blessing and petals, and thenthe cauldron gets carried and
poured back into the lake.
And on one occasion, many yearsago now, dr Emoto was with us

(01:11:18):
and did before and afterphotographs of that and that all
worked just the way it wassupposed to.
And also at the time we weregetting algal blooms on the lake
, I think primarily because ofnitrogen fertilizer runoff from
agricultural land.
But once we started blessingthe lake, the algae all went

(01:11:39):
away and we were allowed to goand swim again.
That's interesting.
They were also cutting back onthe fertilisers and the city was
managing water runoff.

AJ (01:11:55):
Glad to hear it, because an alternative response would be oh
, let's pump the nitrogen.
If you're going to clear it, noworries Well it all works
together.
Yeah, yeah, good, ideally.
You know it was visitingStonehenge that caused an
Australian researcher by thename of Lynn Kelly to

(01:12:15):
investigate the song lines inAustralia she's an Australian
and then in other parts of theworld, effectively the same sort
of methodology and she ended upwriting a book called ah, the
something code.
I remember her because shewrote a book called song lines
with an aboriginal woman and itwas amazing and it's become like

(01:12:37):
the second or third mostpopular podcast ever as well.
It was amazing and it's becomelike the second or third most
popular podcast ever as well.
Just seeing the similaritiesand overlaps yes, again, over
the thousands of years ofhumanity that you were
describing.
Yeah, everywhere.

Patrick (01:12:49):
Now on the pilgrimage routes, the song lines of Europe
.
Henry VIII bans pilgrimage.
Is that right?
Earmarks people so that theycan be identified if they're
going out of county.

AJ (01:13:04):
It's interesting how power has occasionally done that.
Yet we're talking about thearmies, that power when they
feel the utility, or even forthe same reasons perhaps for
power?

Patrick (01:13:16):
I think that's the thing.
Yes, once you realise you'vegot some kind of power, do you
concentrate that and manipulateit, or do you share that for
community benefit?

AJ (01:13:34):
The age-old mythological story as well.
So for you, then, you've endedup so involved with agriculture.
I I can imagine the linkbetween what you were realizing
before to that, but how did itactually happen?
How did you get so linked toagriculture?

Patrick (01:13:53):
yes, I think it was probably always in my stars, aj.
Uh, probably literally.
My parents had my astrologicalchart done as soon as I was born
.
Always in my stars, aj,probably literally.
My parents had my astrologicalchart done as soon as I was born
.
Those kinds of parents, and atthe end the astrologist comment
is I can't tell whether thischild will become a doctor or a

(01:14:13):
farmer.
So I kind of reckon I was bornto do something like this.
Yeah, I was born to dosomething like this, a hybrid
yeah.
In circumstance.
What I realise now is mum wasreally really, really good at
talking to plants and animalsand landscape in ways that I so
took for granted that I didn'treally see it happening and

(01:14:38):
negotiating with the birds whichtrees in the orchard they could
take and which they needed toleave, and no rabbits or moles
dared venture into our garden.
But for me I was more on a humanhealth, environmental trail.
But what happened was over thefirst 10, 15 years of my

(01:15:03):
practice I was getting all thisfeedback.
When I got somebody's homespace nicely clear and tuned up
and balanced, then they wouldtell me, and the cherry
blossomed for the first time andwe got fruit off the apple for
the first time, and all of asudden the chickens are laying

(01:15:25):
eggs like they've never laidbefore.
And so, even working withdomestic, I was getting more and
more feedback on the animal andplant impacts of the work.
And then here in Vermont,farmers who came on dowsing
workshops started asking me towork on their properties and, um

(01:15:48):
, the first ones were dairyfarms.
I think the very first one wasa dairy farm and then, as soon
as I worked on the farm, theywon Best Milk Award in Vermont
and I think they got it sevenyears in a row.
Wow.
Do you want to drop a name?
Probably for clientconfidentiality.

(01:16:13):
Okay, that'll need to remainanecdotal.
Anecdotal, but I I saw theimpact on on dairy of working
and then realized that that wasone of the most common things
that dowsers do in germany is towork with dairy herds, because
cows are very sensitive toenvironment, and if they're

(01:16:33):
getting mastitis or lowfertility or difficulty with
calving, that's one of the firstplaces that you would look to
see and check whether there was,particularly if it's isolated
to one part of the farm.
More and more, even here inVermont, cattle are mostly

(01:16:56):
living indoors and the forage isbrought in to them as as hay or
silage, so they don't reallyhave so much capacity to move
around, and if you put them inan atmosphere that isn't good
for them, then it'll showconsequential.
So I got working with dairy uh,more and more.

(01:17:16):
And then, um, I had anopportunity to work with a mixed
arable farm in Scotland over anumber of years and did a lot of
experimentation.
And then, gradually, word gotout and I started publishing
results and that was what cameto RCS's attention.
There you go.

AJ (01:17:37):
Should we walk back?
Yeah, should we walk back?
Yeah.
So yeah, walking back along thelake here now back towards the
car to go to our nextdestination.
It just occurred to me you knowwhat you were saying before as
we look out on the lake and youcomment on how great it is for
kids because it's so shallow,and and then I thought, oh yeah,
and if it's getting cleaner,awesome.
And then I thought there'sanother story of something

(01:17:57):
getting better, and there's somany stories of things getting
better.

Patrick (01:18:01):
Everywhere, Everywhere.
So much positive energy, somuch positive intention.
I think people are hungry for alife of soul.
Frankly, I think that's perhapspart of what's happened.
We talked about circularconsciousness and animism, but

(01:18:26):
it applies also to ourselves.

AJ (01:18:29):
Yes, so so much deep desire to live in ways that satisfy and
fulfill and allow us to betruly an integrated part of the
family of things yet there'sthis other narrative, which sort

(01:18:50):
of has its own a spiral thatgets sort of more worked up and
more worked up, and I'm and I'mtalking from very genuine care
and concern to many people.
I know that see the climatecrisis and the biodiversity, and
then gaza, uh, and they mightargue here, if they're with us,
that they are bigger forces thanthe spots we're observing where

(01:19:13):
stuff's getting better.

Patrick (01:19:15):
What do I think, historically, we've always had
an element in humanity thatseeks to dominate and control
and concentrate power.
Whether it's Chinese emperorsor Genghis Khan or Alexander the

(01:19:39):
Great, or fill in thehistorical details we seem
always to have been perhapsmoved by a sense of scarcity and
moving towards what we conceiveof as a more secure future for
our family and tribe andcommunity.

(01:20:00):
So whether it's any differentor worse now than it ever was,
I'm not sure, or whether thenames have simply changed, but
I'm very encouraged.
And actually, in terms of thephysics of consciousness, when
we're in a grace state, whenwe're in an unconditional love

(01:20:21):
state, our electrocardiographicand electroencephalographic
spectrum analysis showsincreasingly rich golden ratio
proportion wavelengths within it, and the golden ratio is a

(01:20:42):
proportion where waves meet eachother without creating
disturbance or diffraction.
Any other proportion of waveinterface creates distortional
patterns when they come together, but golden ratio allows waves
to stand and sustain in thepresence of others.
The point of that is that it'sthe most efficient way of

(01:21:10):
propagating energy, and so love,in fact, is a more efficient
waveform than fear and hatred.
And so if you were to go poundsper square inch, pounds per
square inch, with equalintensity, love always wins over

(01:21:31):
fear and hate, because it'sactually a more efficient and
sustainable waveform.
And so I'm reassured that thehobbits will always ultimately
win out over the forces ofsauron, because their simple,
wholehearted love is ultimatelyindomitable.

(01:21:52):
And I like to observe that thehobbits were the peaceful
farmers and they were justtrying to keep things nice in
the shower in the shower, and soall of all of this trouble
around them with the great andmighty was like a storm that
washed through, and then theywent back to growing vegetables

(01:22:15):
and smoking their tobaccobrilliant on that note.
On that note, let's head to ournext stop ok, so I'm going to
take you next to a woodlandlabyrinth.
So we are arriving into theland of the Meach Cove Trust and

(01:22:47):
this is a 600 plus acre estatethe early 1900s, and now it
hosts an interfaith communitychurch, very beautifully poised,

(01:23:11):
looking out with the same lakeview as this town circle that
we've been on.
And when the current ownerspurchased this land 25 years ago
, they had me do an extensiveamount of work on the land and
the buildings and bring it intonice and crisp and clear and

(01:23:32):
fully engaged.
But one of the things that theywanted to support their church,
which is in these buildings.
This is the sanctuary, which isbuilt as a squared circle with

(01:23:57):
golden ratio elevations andsolstice to solstice windows,
same as the solstice to solsticestones.
So, but one of the things thatthey wanted as part of their,

(01:24:18):
their ritual complex, as it wasa labyrinth which you may be
familiar with labyrinths already.
They're ancient, apparentlyuniversal meditative walking
paths.
We looked around and assessedquite a number of sites on the

(01:24:48):
property and we decided on thisrather charming woodland
labyrinth.
So now we're going into thewoods.
So the history of labyrinthsgoes certainly back 3,200 years,

(01:25:23):
based on historical record, butquite possibly much, much older
and later than that, and thedesign that seems to be the
universal is the seven-circCircuit labyrinth, sometimes
called the classical Cretanlabyrinth, but we find this

(01:25:44):
design woven into baskets andrugs and blankets in the Native
American culture here in NorthAmerica.

AJ (01:26:00):
Is that right?

Patrick (01:26:02):
We find the similar pattern on the plain of Nazca in
Peru.
We find them widely throughEurope and Asia and many of the
oldest still existing ones arearound the Gulf of Bothnia in
Sweden and date from the Vikingperiod.
Still existing ones are aroundthe Gulf of Bothnia in Sweden
and date from the Viking period.

(01:26:23):
Oh yes, that was a squirrel.
Yeah.
I thought he was, but he was.
He wasn't moving until he sawwhich way we were going.

AJ (01:26:38):
So again, is there a particular way you engage?

Patrick (01:26:41):
so, um, yes, with the sound of hay being moaned in the
background in the fieldadjacent, uh.
So there's a single walkingpath that enters here and then
it continues around.
Uh, if you number them from theoutside 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and

(01:27:03):
then a central area, thesequence of walking it takes you
3, 2, 1 and then 4, and then 7,6, 5 and into the center, and
they can be used in many ways assimple walking, meditation,

(01:27:25):
problem solving time to quietenthe mind.
Often in historical symbolismthere's a goddess in the middle,
and one of the associated mythsis the myth of the descent of
Inanna, who is a Mesopotamiangrain goddess and when she

(01:27:48):
reaches the point of coming intoher mature power as a goddess,
she has to go and visit firstwith the Ereshkigal, who is
queen of the underworld and abit of a scary crown.
So inanna goes through sevengates, the seven turns in the

(01:28:11):
labyrinth, uh, to access theunderworld and at each of the
gates, nettie, the gatekeepertakes from her rather symbolic
items of clothing.
There's a tiara, a necklace, agirdle.
You can sort of follow thechakras being unveiled as the
path goes into the labyrinthuntil finally she achieves the
center of the labyrinth and isnaked in front of a Reshka gal

(01:28:32):
who slays her and hangs her on ameat hook for a season, as
goddesses will, before bringingher back to life and reanimating
her.
And then she comes back out ofthe labyrinth, putting all her
things back on in sequence, andwhen she emerges she's now fully

(01:28:52):
reborn into her full maturepowers, having first been to
that dark place of death andrebirth at that moment of
transition in her womanhood.
So there's a way that we canhave a sense of going into the
labyrinth of each layer,stripping away an outer veil of

(01:29:17):
consciousness or worldlyconcerns veil of consciousness
or worldly concerns until we'rereally at a still deep point of
renewal and resource in themiddle.
That's a lovely way to use them.
Another thing that's fun withthese labyrinths is although
it's quite a journey around thisone, where 80 feet in diameter,

(01:29:39):
which is what's required tomake each path wheelchair
accessible, which was one of theremits on this one is that
although it's a long walk aroundthe middle, you can actually
walk across this centralthreshold and go from the
outside straight into the middle, and so sometimes, with
retreats or extended sort offocus time, it's nice to walk

(01:30:07):
winding into the labyrinth atthe beginning and then step
across that threshold so thatenergetically you're still in
the labyrinth until at the endof the event you cross again
into the very center and windout.
I used to do week-long holisticmedicine retreats with a

(01:30:28):
gathering of people who cametogether every year for 20 years
.
We would make a beach labyrinthbelow high tide and walk into
it at the beginning and then atthe end of the retreat we do
another beach labyrinth and walkout of it, and it was a way of
sort of energeticallyintentionally bookending that

(01:30:49):
this one.
We had the naming and inauguralceremony of coming into the
world for my daughter when thatwas her time, and her mum and I
walked with her into thelabyrinth and our friends
gathered and there was singingand and praying and speeching

(01:31:10):
and then Heather and Ali and Istepped across the middle to
come out.
So we're in the labyrinth,we're there for life was just a
way of embodying that sharedjourney that will end at its own
time.
So they can be used in very manyways.

(01:31:30):
There's a way that you can do alovely dance where people
coming in and going out joinhands, the walls and you can go
four paths, in and out holdinghands with people going in the
opposite directions is abeautiful thing to do.

(01:31:51):
So we don't know of them ashaving any agricultural context,
but it's very much ritual inlandscape and all of the
original Gothic cathedrals had alabyrinth laid into their nave,

(01:32:15):
and I think at the turn of the1900s there were still over 120
turf labyrinths in parishchurches around the UK.
So it used to be every churchwould have an outside labyrinth,
typically turf cut, and soyou'd have celebrations indoors

(01:32:36):
and then you'd have celebrationsoutdoors and that was a bit
like, you know, having sweatlodges or saunas.
It was part of, uh, the annualand regular cycle of people
connecting with themselves andwith source.
When you say churches, what?

AJ (01:32:55):
churches would we be talking about?

Patrick (01:32:58):
uh, these would have been, um, uh, the Episcopalian
ones.
There's still one calledJulian's Bower in Alkborough in
Lincolnshire and several others,but most of them they didn't
get maintained or they fell outof use.
There was quite a resurgence ofinterest in labyrinths,

(01:33:21):
particularly in the 80s and 90s,and I helped put a shark-style
labyrinth into an Episcopalianchurch just five miles from here
, but they seem to have slightlywaned in.
But they seem to have slightlywaned in people's awareness
again, or at least in a generalsense.

AJ (01:33:43):
Yeah, I'm curious with all this stuff, patrick, and we
talked before about so much goodstuff coming on.
What's been your observationover your time in changes and
shifts in people, their appetite, their practice and, in
agriculture, in these domainslike cast a wide net on that

(01:34:07):
what's been your observation ofchange in appetite for this
stuff in people?

Patrick (01:34:12):
I think it's.
We get very excited about thethings that we do, but it does
look to be rather generationalto me and the things that our
children grow up with become thenorm for them, whereas it might
have been quite unusual for usWatching what happened with

(01:34:33):
holistic medicine hugeexcitement in the 70s and 80s,
and you mentioned holotropicbreath work, reflexology,
aromatherapy, yoga practicessuch as Reiki, tai Chi Qigong
Huge groundswell of interestgenerations later it's hard to

(01:35:03):
find anybody who's next doorneighbor isn't a reiki master
and who, yeah, you know yoga,doesn't have yoga or, uh, some
sense of of that.
in fairness, I think in the 40sand 50s we were fascinated with
tibetan culture, uh, prior tothat, uh, 20s and 30s, looking
very much to native americans,and now I think the um, the sort

(01:35:26):
of equivalent, is go to southamerica and engage with um, with
practices, uh, mind-alteringpractices there, and the
breathwork I mean, that'sexploding, yes, right now.
So I think and you mentionedepigenetics, aj, I think you
know it takes it takes threegenerations, I think, for a

(01:35:48):
thing to become reallynormalized and integrated.
You do what your granny did oryour granddad, uh, and I think
the seven generations isprobably how long it takes for
us to get really sophisticatedand elegantly simple with a
thing.
So my parents were sort ofpioneers.

(01:36:10):
So in a certain sense I'msecond generation in the culture
Grandmother was into it, butthat was closed door stuff.
Culture, grandmother was intoit, but that was closed-door
stuff.
But looking around at what'snormal now, what we're exposed
to, the explosion of Internetallowing us to listen, to learn

(01:36:30):
from, observe practices from allover the world, and I think
people are hungrier than they'veever been and the
deconstruction of the humaninstitutions in which we've held
doctrinal religions, I think,as those deconstruct, or people

(01:36:53):
are unsatisfied with the humanelements of those.
I think we've got a hungrypopulation that just is
literally soul searching forauthenticity, for wholeness, for
truth and for our fundamentalreconnection.
We've somehow become lonely onthe planet as human beings.

(01:37:17):
We've been told that we're theproblem and that without us the
planet would do fine.
But in my experience, at leastpersonally, any time I've
connected and engaged withelementals, nature, spirits,
there's been such a depth ofwelcome and warmth and support

(01:37:38):
and guidance and encouragement,um, that I simply everything
that I was raised to, but alsoeverything that I've experienced
, reassures me that we, we arepart of life on the planet and
we have a very particular andsacred role.
I don't know what other thanhuman being has our experience

(01:38:03):
of watching a sunset or asunrise.
What other incarnate beings aresinging and dancing and playing
violin?
Maybe we've got a sacred dutyof digging things up and moving
them around.
There's nothing else that doesthat, not to that scale anyway.

(01:38:23):
Scale well, maybe the placegets to express and experience
itself in a certain way, uh,uniquely, through the eyes and
actions of people, because atthe end of the day, we've had
ice ages and dinosaurs andmeteor strikes and volcanoes and
mass extinctions.
So it might be we should dialback our egocentric sense of

(01:38:46):
power of actually being able todestroy a planet.
We can certainly create ecocideand terrible land management
and environmental harm, but Ithink that's a very brief and
unusual thing for people to do.
Actually, I think our nature isvery connected and,

(01:39:10):
historically as well, yourintuition and instinct were your
survival necessaries.
We rely now on data andintellect, but if you can't
perceive the presence of asaber-toothed tiger until you
see it, it's too late already.
And we have mountain lions andbears in the woods here in

(01:39:33):
Vermont and you know if there'sone around and you don't want to
see it.
But you instinctively know andyou don't want to see it.
But you instinctively know andyou can read nature because the
birds are very quiet or they'remaking alarm calls or the forest
has gone very still becausenothing wants to move While that
happens and the hair goes backup on the neck and the arms and

(01:39:57):
you know there's a predator hereand you know you want to move
away.
So that could be calledirrational.
I didn't hear it, I didn't seeit.
I know theoretically it couldbe here, but my body knows it's
present.
And if we couldn't find food,if we couldn't find water, if we
didn't have that level ofintrinsic awareness of landscape

(01:40:19):
, you simply, you know, didn'tmake it till breakfast time
tomorrow.
So what used to be survivallevel awarenesses, I think, have
become a little bit redundantwith our infatuation with linear
cognition and technology.

AJ (01:40:34):
It's very interesting, you say that I have heard almost the
same words from people comingacross this country, including
in the very episode that'scoming out today, which is on
the buffalo restoration on theGreat Plains another
extraordinary story and he wasdescribing the same thing, and

(01:40:57):
that's even with the guy who'sregarded, as you know, just
about as good a buffalo wrangleras there is, that you will
still feel that when it looksyou in the eye and, and,
similarly, if there's somethingcoming that you're, you need to
be aware of, but you're not toyour visual eye.
And I heard the same thing froma man in South Dakota who

(01:41:20):
tracks mountain lions, so he'sengaged with them all the time,
but found himself in a situationwhere it was above him, but he
didn't know it, but felt it andgot the hell out of there and
came back and then confirmedwhat was I feeling?
I was up there oh my, you know.
But this is true of a bunch offarmers obviously I've spoken to
as well.
It's partly how we've cometogether, and when I hear that,

(01:41:43):
what I want to hear in yourwords is as much your senses are
alive and sure you don'tnecessarily want to have to walk
into the presence of a jaw thatwould eat you to feel alive.
But we don't have to.
We can feel it in theagricultural spaces you dwell in
and can feel it in theagricultural spaces you dwell in

(01:42:04):
and where we are right now.
But to think then that that'swhat we've traded out for more
secure, quote-unquote survivalmethods, that's a big price to
pay.
And I and I guess then it doesmake sense of the loneliness,
epidemics, the anxiety, the youtalked before, the grasping for

(01:42:26):
the next bigger thing.
Because what else are you goingto do If you've lost what
actually triggers your livinginstincts, your compasses shut
down, so you grasp it's?
It makes.
There is a logic in that.
Even that makes some sense ofwhere we find ourselves.

(01:42:49):
So, sure, maybe we don't needthis for survival, but the way
things have got, I kind of thinkwe do.
Perhaps not your physicalsurvival, but then when you look
at chronic illness exploding.
I think maybe we do for juststraight-up survival need these
instincts, we need the compasslest we be lost.

Patrick (01:43:13):
I think we do.
And even in pure economics, ifyou get them off camera, pretty
much the most successfulinvestors are hyper-intuitive
and hyper-instinctive.
That's true.
Yes, good point.
I think George Soros' wifecalled him out at one lecture

(01:43:34):
where he was extrapolating hisinvestment theory and his wife
said he just invests when hiskidneys hurt.
Yeah, interesting.
I don't know what else he's upto, but I've certainly been
impressed, including back to ourmilitary conversation.
Yeah, often the the people atthe top of the tree, are using

(01:43:56):
this stuff all the time.

AJ (01:43:58):
Yeah, and I even hear about, I mean, I mean, alan Savory
told me.
I asked him and he said thereis certainly more than once that
intuition saved him from beingshot on the battlefield.
Yeah, and it's not an isolatedstory, obviously.
I was just curious on how he'dexperienced it.
Yes, yeah, well, that haycutter's got close to us, it has

(01:44:20):
.
Maybe we should.

Patrick (01:44:22):
That's our time to continue to move on.

AJ (01:44:24):
I think so, but wow, what a special place.
All right, patrick.
Sorry in a way, because themachine's left us now and this
is now feeling a whole otherlevel of beautiful and powerful
Just listening to that.
So sorry in a way, but we'vegot somewhere else that it'd be
good to visit.
So let's go there now, and onroute you've got a bit of a

(01:44:48):
story to tell.

Patrick (01:44:50):
Yes, so Vermont gets settled mid to late 1700s and
back in the day it was reallythe breadbasket of New England,
really entirely agriculturalstate.
85% of the land was cleared foragriculture, huge amount of

(01:45:17):
sheep as well as grain and fruitproduction.
And then land opening upprogressively in the west and
the central sections of thecountry and changing

(01:45:38):
agricultural economics meantthat the small and often hilly
vermont farms were no longer nolonger economically viable and
so most of the farmland wassimply abandoned and forest is

(01:46:02):
regrown and now again covers 85%of the land is now forested Wow
.
But when the farms were goingout in the 50s there was a
massive back-to-the-landmovement that came into Vermont
and New Hampshire and NewEngland.

(01:46:22):
The Neerings were kind oficonic of that period.
So land was cheap and thealternative back-to-the land
community came here.
And then the same thinghappened again in the 1970s
where we got a huge influx ofsophisticated, well-educated,

(01:46:45):
often university graduates yes,so inexpensive land prices.
In the 70s we got a whole sortof wave of what we'd refer to as
the hippie culture, people whowanted to drop out of mainstream
and in their own way come backto the land.

(01:47:05):
So Vermont found itself in aninteresting position of being
economically conservative andsocially liberal, and a lot of
very interesting projects gotrooted and anchored in Vermont,

(01:47:27):
became a haven for peopleconcerned with food and
alternative education, a lot ofindependent schools, strong
presence of Steiner schools, andthat's changing gradually with
changing political and economiccircumstances.

(01:47:50):
But we still do have this verystrong body of very
holistic-minded people who,either themselves or their
parents or grandparents, foundtheir way to Vermont to live in
a more land-based andindependent kind of community,

(01:48:13):
and so we've got a very strongslow food movement here, with a
lot of farm-to-table stylerestaurants, direct purchase
from identified agriculturalproducers.
We've got a couple ofsubstantially dedicated whole

(01:48:38):
food supermarkets and on eachtray of potatoes.
Or and then very smartintegrated farmers who grow

(01:49:04):
grains for local distilleriesand then the spent mash goes
back to feed cows and pigs.
There's one facility in Hardwickwhere surplus whey from milk
products is made into a veryhigh-quality wall and flooring,

(01:49:32):
almost like a polyurethane, ashellac that's a really good one
that's entirely made locallyfrom waste products of the dairy
industry.
And then a lot of small scale,multi-stacked farms that host

(01:49:53):
small-scale, multi-stacked farmsthat host community-supported
agriculture.
But they also have their opendays and their burger nights and
their berry-picking days.
We can go and take a picnic andlisten to music while we pick

(01:50:15):
our berries.
There's a real strong supportfor the local as well as the
organic in the state.
So although we're small, we'rein a way quite flagship for

(01:50:37):
integrated holistic agriculture.

AJ (01:50:41):
Yes, that story certainly reached Australia and I did a
podcast out of Vermont, out ofactually Montpelier, maybe four
years ago now, with Jake Clarowith the Vermont Sustainable
Jobs Fund, I think it's called,but he was the manager of the
what's a farm paddock to plateor farm to plate program or

(01:51:01):
something of that nature, andthat it was bipartisan support
in this backed strategy for thestate and all very interesting
stuff.
So that summed to a fascinatingstory.
You mentioned to me where we'regoing now, to the heart of town
where McDonald's tried to setup.

Patrick (01:51:17):
Yes, in the heart of Burlington.
There downtown McDonald's someyears ago was not being
sufficiently supported to beviable as it was and the
building now hosts a directfarm-to-table restaurant and

(01:51:39):
it's slightly typical and rathericonic of how the public moves
here that they'd support afarm-to-table rather than a
McDonald's in their maindowntown location.

AJ (01:51:55):
Oh, it's such a wonderful symbol, let alone physical
enterprise.
I have to see it.
So, yeah, looking forward tothis.

Patrick (01:52:07):
All right, let's go and check this out.
Let's go to Macca's, let's goto Macca's, let's go to Macca's.
They lost the franchise.
I can't quite remember what thetipping point was for these
guys, but it might be that awaiter or a waitress can tell us

(01:52:27):
they should almost have thestory.

AJ (01:52:30):
They really should have the story somewhere, probably
because it's a great story onthe surface and you know we
don't need to know the specificsnecessarily.
I just rejoice even in the factit's here instead of a
McDonald's, do you want?

Patrick (01:52:43):
to grab a coffee or a beer or something.

AJ (01:52:45):
Sounds good, Mike Great idea , yeah, great idea, and we can
even look it up.
You're right, maybe evensomeone who serves us will know.
They might just know.

Patrick (01:52:55):
Looks like our way in.
Are you hungry at all or just?

AJ (01:52:59):
grab a beverage, yeah, Should we sit down and get a
menu.

Patrick (01:53:03):
Sounds good Hi.
Two of us.
Two of us, yes, please, andwe're hoping that somebody can
tell us the story of how thisbecame farmhouse from.
Mcdonald's.
I've been around since the 90s,but I can't remember what the
tipping point was that switchedthis over.

Kate (01:53:26):
I think it just wasn't doing very well.
And then they tried to build adrive-thru, but then the city
decided not to allow drive-thrusand in 2010, this opened as a
farmhouse.

AJ (01:53:41):
It's so good.
I host a podcast from Australiaand when I heard about this,
it's just such a great symbol,let alone it's so funny.

Kate (01:53:49):
yeah, from a McDonald's to a farm-to-table burger joint.
I know it's funny.
We still have some of theMcDonald's.
So funny, yeah, from aMcDonald's to a farm-to-table
burger joint.
I know it's funny.
We still have some of the.

AJ (01:54:00):
McDonald's tiles like downstairs in the prep kitchen
Really.

Kate (01:54:02):
Yeah, it's funny, that's funny.
There's a spot, manhattan'sPizzeria, that used to be a
Wendy's and as far as I knowthey still have like the Wendy's
, like fry preps, like to hand,hand cut the fries.

AJ (01:54:13):
Even better, you keep it.
That's how it's done.
There almost needs to be aplaque out front.
A plaque.

Kate (01:54:17):
Yeah, we run out.
Plus, being fairly young, werun a lot of chains out of here.
There was a Starbucks thatclosed.
There was a Five Guys thatdidn't stay very long.

AJ (01:54:30):
Music to my ears.
This is recording.
Do you mind if?
I include this in the podcastwhat's your name?
I'm kate reed thanks a lot ofcourse um inside or outside oh
if there's outside.
Well, patrick, back at home,base in the garden where we
started, with a lovelysoundtrack in the background to

(01:54:54):
boot.
Firstly, thanks for lunch.
Wow, so I have to share that.
I had a von trapp grapefruitbeer wow, amazing.
And and you've told me thestory of how it's the von trapp
family from the sound of musicnow well established in vermont
and, yeah, the menu, incredible.

(01:55:14):
So what a treat to visit thereand such a great symbol, as we
said.
Now we're back at home.
Let's sign off with a couplemore stories before we go on to
some of the stories oftransformation you've been
involved in, though, just to tieoff on the thread we were
visiting before, on on the shiftover the, over your journey and

(01:55:35):
the academic field.
There's been some shift theretoo.
The, indeed the publicationthat came out of the university
of your friend there, juliaright, you were saying that you
penned an essay in, and charliemassey's previously missing
chapter quote, quote-unquotefrom Reid Warbler, the one that

(01:55:56):
didn't make the cut for being abit too pushing the envelope,
perhaps a bit too much at thetime, made it into this
publication too, out of auniversity.
Something different's happeningthere too.

Patrick (01:56:07):
Yes, and very exciting, I think, and also somewhat
generational.
There are now degrees inspirituality and agriculture and
spirituality in the environmentand actually currently having a
restructuring moment now, butplaces like Schumacher College

(01:56:31):
in the UK, emerson College, likeSchumacher College in the UK,
emerson College, I think we'reseeing more and more academic
interest and offerings in thearea of holism, including
holistic environmental studies,which is lovely.
I think.
Often, as you very well know,one slightly follows the money

(01:56:54):
trail in terms of narratives andwhat's presented, and so, for
the most part, mainstreamagricultural academia is funded
by pharmaceutical, agrochemicalcompanies and because they're

(01:57:15):
funding the research, they'reobviously then promoting their
version of farming alongside ofthat.
So I think the places where thiskind of more holistic research
is happening is probably not themainstream agricultural
campuses, not the mainstreamagricultural campuses, but

(01:57:40):
either smaller schools orsmaller departments catering to
a vast hungry desire of theupcoming generation to I don't
want to say break the mold, butfind a dawning of a new and
sustainable way to go.
I also think the climatenarrative has been so
dramatically emphasized andforced onto that generation

(01:58:04):
coming into their 20s and goingthrough academia now that
there's a real sense of peoplewanting to learn how to do
better and different and there'salso a generation of landowners
, property owners who are comingto age either of inheritance or

(01:58:25):
taking over established familybusinesses, who have a social
environmental awareness andconsciousness and are moving
into positions where they caninvest either substantial
acreage or sometimes substantialfunds towards making that

(01:58:46):
happen.
So I think it's spreadingrapidly.
I know Southern Cross has Regregen ag on its menu, um and so
it's popping up all over theplace.
It's popping up all over theplace, I I think, ultimately, it
always has to be grassroots andthat's where it belongs,

(01:59:09):
because, um, whilst there's aphilosophy that I think you and
I are both very immersed in, ofparadigm and thinking, it's in
the application on the farm thatwe actually see why it's so
beneficial, why I don't want toshoot on anybody, but why we

(01:59:34):
should be doing it.
Um, what's it all about, andwhy did our ancestors make such
a fuss about it?
Um, what's that really about?
There's the perfect segue, then.
Well, yes, so, um, as you canimagine, uh, many stories, but
one, I think, very sal salient.
One that I do like to share is astory of plant and place

(02:00:00):
whispering from the Cotswolds ofEngland, which are very
beautiful and, in the Romanperiod, created the sheep with
the finest fleece in all ofEurope.
The Cotswold sheep was the mostsplendid thing and they had a
very fine and delicate pile.
So, agricultural countryCotswold is actually a little

(02:00:24):
bit the same story as here inVermont Big-time sheep country,
water-powered woolen mills andthen post-woolen industry
collapsed there.
However, our story happens onthe edge of a small iconic
village, at a very wonderful,small-scale family dairy farm

(02:00:50):
and family concern, organicmilking, 20 cows once a day and
able to make a living at thatscale because their value add
was cheese.
They were award winning cheesemakers and also they had a
retail shop in town, so theywere able to do both value add

(02:01:12):
and retail and they had a smalllivery stable on on the side.
So, as with a lot of smallscale farms, uh, finding ways to
to integrate and um support thescale of their enterprise and
their cows were their friends.
On one occasion I was there andthe farmer was being harassed

(02:01:37):
by his cheese-making wife, whothought that he ought to be
euthanizing a 23-year-old cowwith one eye and he thought she
was doing just fine and to leaveher alone.
So it was that level of you knowscale.
So I was in and out of thatvillage regularly for a decade

(02:01:58):
and became acquainted with themand no money ever changed hands.
I worked on many occasions andI always came away with a bag
full of cheese, and so that wasour arrangement.
But the story that I'm sharingwith you now unfolds in October,
which of course in the UK ismoving into autumn weather, and

(02:02:23):
they had two next to each otherfields of alfalfa loosened
depending where you live andthese two fields had been
planted same day, same operator,same equipment, same seed, and
had been held back as the lastgreen forage before the cattle

(02:02:44):
were going to shift on to dry,dry hay and silage for winter.
So they were very critical atthis moment in the forage budget
in this farm and they weredoing holistic grazing and so
moving wires, narrow strips, thecows moved across the first

(02:03:07):
field of alfalfa and so thecattle are grazed through the
first field over a period ofabout a week, moving gently with
moving wires to create thehigh-density grazing benefits to
the grasslands, and then theymove into the second field and
within two hours of the firststrip of the second field, seven

(02:03:31):
of their cows are showing signsof bloat.
First strip of the second fieldseven of their cows are showing
signs of bloat.
And bloat is something thatfarmers pay very, very close
attention to when cattle are onalfalfa or lucerne, because the
nutritional density and highnitrogen content of that plant,
um, if the cow's microbiomedoesn't totally get on top of it

(02:03:57):
, uh, they can become swollen tothe point of exploding and
dying in that way because fromthat central rumen.
They can't pass gas either outthe front or out the back, so
it's a life-threateningcondition.
And when, when grazers movecattle on to that plant,
therefore, they they generallypay pretty close attention to

(02:04:18):
see that that's going to go well.
So these clouds were beingclosely watched.
Seven of them showed signs ofbloat, and so the cattle were
pulled off the field and putinto the barn and I was called
which obviously would be thething to do if you've got an
indigestible field of alfalfa iscall the land whisperer.

(02:04:40):
So, fortunately, I was in town.
I was there within 15-20minutes and what I did literally
was to sit down and have ameditation with the field in the
field.
Literally was to sit down andhave a meditation with the field
in the field.
And what's happening here isvery, very simple.
Everybody has their own way ofdoing this.

(02:05:01):
There's no right or wrong wayto telepathically communicate
with land or plants or animals.
You just do it in a way thatyou find works best for you.
So for me, sitting quietly,moving into a peaceful space,
and then what happens is wenaturally connect with whatever
we think about, and when wethink about a thing with love

(02:05:24):
and peacefulness, then theconnection establishes one of
close rapport and creativitypotential in that space.
So in my imaginal space, mymeditative, if you will,

(02:05:44):
shamanic consciousness, Iintroduced into the circle of my
thinking, effectively, akitchen table chat of all
interested parties.
So first up, always one's ownpersonal companion, angels and
sort of celestial support team,and then, in this case, the

(02:06:05):
spirit of the farm and thespirit of this particular field,
the guiding intelligence of thesoil, the gnomes as we would
call them.
The guiding intelligence isbehind and within the plants,
the diva of the plant, and thenthe spirit of the mob of cattle

(02:06:26):
and also St Bridget, who is theCeltic patroness of domesticated
animals.
So I reckon she could help meout so effectively.
Now I'm, in my mind, in akitchen table situation, having
invited the conscious witnessand dialogue with these

(02:06:49):
vibrational intelligences of thefarm, and it was a bit like
being in a really noisyout-of-control children's party.
There was chaos, there wasconfusion and what I came to
realize quite quickly was thatthe first field that the cows

(02:07:09):
had been nutritionally supportedby had full identity and
awareness, conscious awarenessof its role in the agricultural
cycle and that it had beenplanted to be food for cows
which would give milk, whichwould give cheese, which would

(02:07:30):
nurture people, and then itwould be replanted again in its
successional rotation.
So its giving itself to behighly nutritional cattle fodder
was effectively ensuring itssurvival in that landscape
because it was integrated as anagricultural crop.
The second field didn't havethat messaging hadn't gone

(02:07:53):
through, thought that it waswild and that these were feral
herbivores that had shown up andthat its survival was dependent
on its make-and-go-away bypoisoning them with toxic
substances.
And indeed plants have what arebroadly called primary

(02:08:16):
metabolites and secondarymetabolites.
And the primary metabolites arewhat they do to do their
ordinary growing thing day today.
And then the secondarymetabolites are a library or
catalog of discretionary phenols, tannins, a range of chemicals
that they can very rapidlymanufacture and distribute

(02:08:39):
within themselves to makethemselves less attractive to
the aphid or the locust or thecow or whatever might be the
agent of its consumption.
And we hear from those who workin South Africa of giraffes

(02:09:01):
having to creep up with quiet,soft footfall, noiselessly from
down wind, creep up on acaciatrees and get in a graze and a
browse, because as soon as thetree realizes that the giraffe
is on it, it instantly fills itsleaves with tannins which
render it disgusting andunpalatable to giraffe, and it

(02:09:23):
tells all its neighborhoodfriends.
So then it's breakfast over forgiraffe and it's got to go and
stalk another acacia tree to getsecond breakfast or the other
half of the first one.
I learned from an indigenousethnobotanist here in the US
about a ground cherry inWashington state which is

(02:09:44):
delicious beyond belief.
But if the plant spots a personcreeping up on it, it almost
instantly turns itself sour anddisgusting, and so you literally
again have to creep up fromdownwind, because it can smell
you, apparently, and then grabit quick.
Um, before it spots that you'rethere.

(02:10:06):
So so plants, you and ourstress response is run away.
A plant obviously can't runaway, so it has to change its
expressed metabolism, not itsmorphology but its physiology in
order to have its survivalprocess.

(02:10:28):
So this was a very clearsituation of this inaction.
The first field had identity,the elementals, nature, spirits,
totally happy to be on the farm.
Crop was great.
Second field didn't realize itwas part of farm, didn't really
understand what agriculture wasand had mobilized literally this

(02:10:51):
lethal cow killing, uh,secondary metabolic response.
So, um, I had a good old chatwith them about this and
everybody seemed happy once theyunderstood what was going on
and why it was going on and um,within a very short period of

(02:11:13):
time, much less time than ittakes to tell the story, because
telepath is happening at thespeed of thought.
So you know, from start tofinish this might actually only
have taken 90 seconds, but itdoesn't matter how long it takes
, it matters that you take thetime to do it.
So chat with the.
By the time, everybody had hadtea and cake, a second round,

(02:11:37):
the kitchen table, everybody wason song, we got thumbs up and
smiles, and so I left them to it.
We waited 12 hours.
We put the cows back into thefield and, without any problem
at all, they grazed off thewhole of the rest of the field
in strips over the subsequent 10days and were well nourished
and happy and um and everythingwas good.

(02:12:00):
So three steps back just to lookat that story.
Um, first of all, I didn'tspeak or move.
This.
This was an internal, imaginal,meditational, shamanic
communication that I was havingin situ.
I've also done it long distancewith maps and photographs, but

(02:12:23):
in this case I was on site.
So that's what I was doing wasI was having a good, hard think.
However, what's clear from whathappened then is the plants
understood me.
Even though it was an internalthought, they telepathically
received the message.
Secondly, they understood itand had capacity to change

(02:12:46):
themselves.
And thirdly, they changedthemselves at my request, for
our convenience to support thepeople living in that landscape.
And those three things puttogether.
Frankly, the first few times ithappened to me it was so
mind-blowing I really prettymuch went to bed for three days

(02:13:07):
until the world reorganizeditself around that, Because I
knew this was possible.
It was one of those.
This was one of the first timesthat I'd people had told me
stories, people I'd trained with, but this was, I knew that I'd
had a chat in my head and thiswhole crop had changed.
So it leaves me in no doubtthat nature can hear our

(02:13:28):
thoughts.
Um, nature can understand ustelepathically, we can
communicate and, as we weresaying earlier in the podcast,
they are happy to support us.
It didn't need to do that.
So, in this telepathiccommunication, clearly the
plants heard me, understood me,had capacity to change and chose

(02:13:53):
to do so, and so it reallyimpressed me of how we live by
their grace and generosity, andif they hadn't wanted people on
the planet, they could have keptthe thing lethal, and then all
the cows would have died and thepeople would have perished and
the flood would have come againas it were.

(02:14:15):
Not my experience.
Clear communication, massivecooperation and support Three
steps back again from that,though.
My hair is grey enough now thatI remember growing up at a time
when people did not have foodallergies.
Yeah, I remember that grayenough now that I remember
growing up at a time when peopledid not have food allergies.

(02:14:37):
Yeah, and now?
Well, now it's so common thatit's all over every restaurant
um waiters here in the statesautomatically and I think
legally have to ask if you haveany food allergies before they
serve you anything and schoolswith peanut butter.

AJ (02:14:55):
Don't even have it near the campus.

Patrick (02:14:56):
Where did this come from?
So we can argue well, it's comefrom pesticides, fertilizers,
things in the air, things in thewater, residues, various
degrees.
But what I've realized by thework that I do is, um uh,
central to this, it's at theplant's discretion whether it's

(02:15:20):
edible and nutritional or not,literally.
And everybody always commentson how the food tastes better
from your own garden than itever can in the supermarket.

AJ (02:15:32):
Yes.

Patrick (02:15:33):
And joining the dots up .
That's where the personal touchcomes.
That's where people are incommunion with their plants.
They love their plants.
There's a personal cooperation.
The plant knows who its personis.
Once we scale agriculture to apoint where the farmer is no
longer literally talking totheir plants and their animals

(02:15:58):
and their land, as example inthis case, the land and the
plants don't know what'shappening and they mount a
stress response.
So I believe I've come tobelieve that unwittingly we're
actually growing toxic foodbecause we're not talking to the
plants.

(02:16:18):
And once you get your headaround this, it's a bit of a big
picture view.
If I were to introduce a toxininto the food system, I would be
considered criminally negligentand legally accountable.
I'm not saying that we shouldsue our farmers for criminal

(02:16:42):
negligence in producing toxicfood, because they don't know
that they're doing that and theydon't know any different.
But I think it's worth a bit ofa three steps back.
Stark, that crop was going tokill the cows and we chatted to
it and then it was highlynutritious, and just to apply

(02:17:03):
that to our food productionsystems, it's not just for you
know the woolly-hatted hippiesto go and hug trees, it's
actually a survival necessity.
If we're going to eat food, youhave to talk to it in order
that it knows who you are, whatyour intentions are, and,
assuming you get its agreement,then you can safely go ahead and

(02:17:25):
eat it.
So I think you know that's.
That's a bit of an illustrativestory that pulls a lot of
threads together.
That's what we used to callhusbandry, now it's agricultural
science.
Husbandry is a marriage ofpeople and place.
It's intimate, it's intuitive,it's emotional, it's

(02:17:46):
communicative.
So, six and a half thousandyears of sustainable husbandry,
a hundred years ofnon-sustainable agricultural
science, it's the communicationand the heart-feltness, it's
literally the love that's in themiddle.

(02:18:06):
And I know from having workedfor hundreds of farmers that
they deeply, deeply, deeply loveand care about their places and
their crops and their animals.
And they would be horrified tothink that they're not doing
best practice, and horrified tothink that they're not doing a
good job and horrified to thinkthat the food going off farm was

(02:18:28):
poisonous.
And so I think that's a veryexciting thought, that, uh, as
I've been doing, um, as ishappening more and more, this is
very simple re-education.
And it's not even re-education,it's, it's really a remembering
.
This is how our grandparentsand great-grandparents and six

(02:18:50):
and a half thousand years ofgenerations knew how to relate
to land by observation andpatient practice in the same
place, for you know, 20 and 30generations at a time.
Talk about epigenetics.

AJ (02:19:03):
Yeah Well, thousands in the case of Australia.

Patrick (02:19:06):
Thousands.
So that story is, I think, ofparticular interest.
Yes, it's brilliant.
That story is, I think, ofparticular interest.

AJ (02:19:14):
Yes, and speaking of remembering the Navajo Denae man
I was speaking with I mentionedearlier he and his wife in the
podcast with them recently andhis wife being from Pennsylvania
Mennonite family, she said shecame to a point where I think
she was a bit frustrated withsomething and and james said to

(02:19:36):
her you need to speak to theplants more and she sort of took
that at face value.
But then one day she really didand she heard.
She heard it back, you know.
Um, she describes it well on theon the podcast, you know, as
this would be outsider,culturally speaking,

(02:20:01):
conceptualizing herself as suchyeah, not inherently, you know,
consistent with what you'resaying not inherently an
outsider at all, but culturally,coming in and then applying
what he had suggested was whatwas missing, and it all changed.
And they're not.
These aren't the only instancesI've heard either, and in very,

(02:20:24):
very pragmatic ways andcontexts.
And now, yeah, we are readingand learning so much more about
this, even in the popular domain, through books and other
research that's coming out atthe moment, so it does seem to
be an opening I think it is anopening, um, and it's a.

Patrick (02:20:46):
It's a pretty simple message and once you got it, um,
it's one that you you know isinformative.
I'd also share anotherplant-based story, this one from
New South Wales, on a propertythat the farmers described as a
Rolls-Royce property with nospark plugs.

(02:21:07):
And they couldn't tell why itwasn't going well, because it
should do.
All the analyses of soil andminerals were really rather good
.
Um, it was in a relatively uh,benign, uh part of of new south
wales and, uh, they'd been doinghigh density grazingensity,

(02:21:31):
grazing, crop rotations,biodynamics and radionics all on
the farm, but they justcouldn't get it to perform in
the way that they knew that itreally should be able to.
So they invited me to go andlook and what was immediately
perceptible to me, lookingthrough my lens, was that the
land was terribly, terribly,terribly subdued and held down,

(02:21:57):
held back, overcast by residualenergy from an aboriginal
massacre that was well known tohave occurred there during the
period of colonization.
And when I looked more deeplyinto it, through intuition,
psychic scanning, dowsing, itbecame clear that we had

(02:22:21):
earthbound souls, ghosts, onproperty, left over from the
residual angst and emotion ofevents leading up to and the
displacement.
And then, a little bit like thealfalfa crop as described, the

(02:22:46):
land did not have the concept ofmonoculture agriculture at all.
It still thought that it was awilderness and that its job was
to support kangaroos and possums.
So in that circumstance, quitea lot of the work was first just
a healing of the spirit ofplace, ensuring that the ghosts

(02:23:12):
were properly attended to andsuccessfully repatriated to
friends and family in theheavenly realm, the intense
emotional residues resolved andblessed and cleared up.
And then, same as with thealfalfa, just a good old chat
with the land to explainagriculture as we were bringing

(02:23:37):
it and the plants and animalsthat were being brought to the
farm and that we were asking tobe supported.
And again there was an ahamoment where the land got it and
said yes and thanks for theclarity and we'll do everything

(02:24:01):
we can.
And two weeks later they planteda sorghum crop and previously
their best yield had been 1.6tonnes per acre, their average
had been 1 tonne per acre.
This one came in at 2.3 tonnesper acre, which was exciting.
And it's not that it made it gofaster, it was that that's what
that landscape should alwaysbeen providing.

(02:24:22):
So it was bringing it to itsnormal, healthy state.
Um, but even more exciting, aj,uh, than the, than the crop
yield.
Was that one of the landscapeintelligence responses, once it
fully understood what we were upto and that sorghum, what
sorghum was and that sorghum wasour ask.

(02:24:46):
The landscape introduced intothe crop so many spiders and
wasps that they totally tookcare of the Heliothis grub,
which is the normal predator onsorghum, and they were literally
the only one of ten adjacentfarmers all being served by the
same agronomist not to have tospray for pesticides.
So not only did we get thisland up to its natural, healthy

(02:25:11):
optimum of production, but wemanaged to integrate the
intelligence so that it'scompletely self-managing.
And that for me again is Ifthat level of communication and
cooperation is present, thenthat puts us into a truly
sustainable and joyousrelationship.

(02:25:32):
And you know that the land didthat for you because you asked
it to do it, and so there's nothinking of it as a third party,
abstract, inanimate thing.
It's if it's, if it's doingthat after I asked it to do it
and it hasn't done it for thelast 20 years, and it's not
doing it on anybody else's place.

(02:25:53):
This is a direct response topersonal communications and just
possibly the thinnest edge ofthe wedge of what's possible.
I'd also just share a couplestories, because we can
communicate with plants.
We can communicate with plants.

(02:26:13):
We can communicate with animals.
Terry's got a lovely story ofwolf whispering in Montana that
he may have shared with you.

AJ (02:26:21):
He didn't share that one on the podcast actually.

Patrick (02:26:25):
He was able to communicate with three wolf pack
alphas and negotiate that ifthe wolves had free access to
all water, including the waterin the cattle troughs, um, and
not be shot at that they wouldleave the calves alone.
And uh, indeed, as far as Iknow, seven, eight years later

(02:26:46):
that's that's still holding up.
In my recent trips to australiaI had the pleasure of
connecting with a wonderfullytelepathic Queensland cattle
farmer who was losing up to 80calves per year to dingo strikes
8-0-80 calves which wasdevastating and stressful and

(02:27:08):
also economically verychallenging.
And he described a story outone day in the ute and had his
rifle and saw an alpha male andshot it dead and then really
felt like something had tochange because this wasn't good
for anybody.
So he was naturallypsychopathic from birth, had
rather dismissed it andmarginalized it, but he switched

(02:27:28):
it on and he checked in withthe alpha dingoes and came to an
arrangement that he would nevershoot them again and let them
roam the landscape as theywished, as long as they left his
calves alone.
And this held up for threeyears.
And then one calf was bittennot killed but bitten and he

(02:27:48):
checked back in with the dingoesto see what was going on and
they said we know that happened,it wasn't us, it was a rogue
dog.
Came in from the northes to seewhat was going on and they said
uh, we know that happened, itwasn't us, it was a rogue dog.
Came in from the north, we'vechased it out of territory,
we're still good, so this is allgood.
And then a few months later thedingoes come and knock on his
door, the door of his mind, andthey want to know whether he's
still got his gun.
And he says yes, I put it incupboard, but I still got it.

(02:28:10):
What's up?
They, well, there's a cat inthe territory and we can't catch
it.
It keeps running up a tree.
We're wondering if you'd comeand shoot it for us.
He did go out three timeslooking for said cat, didn't
find it.
And then the dingoes came backto him again, said we've caught
up to it, it's all taken care ofof.
You can put your gun away.

(02:28:33):
So I've come across many peoplewho've got as far as a
negotiation mutual with thedingoes, but this was the first
time that the dingoes came backand asked for a mafia, hit A
competitive predator.

AJ (02:28:51):
But so I'm equally curious then, if this is in us all, how
would we people we go abouttapping back in remembering?
Hmm, I mean, aside from callingyou in, Right, or maybe that is

(02:29:17):
the thing.
Well, I'm already busy and it'sa large world, so I run
workshops and do classes andpodcasts like your own.

Patrick (02:29:24):
I think this is truly the most natural of all things
that we can do.
It's almost not a learned thingat all, aj, it's just we have a
natural connection toeverything.
We have a specific connectionto whatever we hold in mind and

(02:29:45):
in heart.
So, whether you need to talk toyour car or your partner or
your dog cow or your lawn oryour cherry trees, the process
is very simple.
We just get into a peacefulspace and lovingly hold the

(02:30:07):
object of our connectiveintention in mind until we feel
a loving rapport establishedwith it, and then at that point
we have these internalconversations and we're talking
to things that don't necessarilyhave a physical voice.
So the return communication isby reciprocal telepathy, where

(02:30:32):
the cow or the plant or theriver or the weather is putting
thoughts and images into yourmind, and so we observe what
comes into our mind.
Quite literally, we observe theidea that arises, we observe the
thought, the vision, theinstinct, the feeling, and we
can go backwards and forwards,like that of asking for an idea

(02:30:56):
and getting one back, or askingwhat they think about bringing
the sheep back in or plantingcarrots next, and then wait and
see whether that feels right,whether we get different
guidance, whether we get ago-ahead.
So it's quite easy to projectour thoughts.

(02:31:16):
I find that perhaps theunfamiliar in the art is the
deep listening of then, afterhaving asked, just to sit with
the question and allow theanswer to emerge.
And sometimes it's right there.
Sometimes it comes in a dreamthe next night, sometimes it

(02:31:37):
shows up randomly in aconversation with a friend the
following day.
The universe has a myriad ofways of getting information to
us and getting our attentiononce we've made it known that
there's guidance or informationthat we need.
So I truly think it's when itworks.

(02:31:57):
It's effortless, it's one ofthose and you're relaxing back
into your most natural state ofbeing a part of the family of
things and having conversationsarising.

AJ (02:32:12):
That's a very.
These are very consistentthreads that come through time
and time again over the sevenyears of doing this podcast and
right through to even elitelevel sport, music, the flow
state stuff it's veryinteresting that the ways that I
think we're talking to the samestuff.
We've mentioned terry a bit.

(02:32:32):
You guys are still workingtogether, but a bit of a
different form, as I understandit.

Patrick (02:32:38):
Terry, avant-garde pioneer, iconic saviour of
Australian agriculture.
He had started a journey ofexploration of dowsing and land
whispering before I met him.
I was fortunate enough to beinvited to the 20th annual

(02:33:00):
conference where, for the firsttime, rcs really put land
whispering out on its main stage.
There was so much interest thatwe then developed a program of
three-day level one, three-daylevel two trainings for farmers,

(02:33:20):
a two-day graduate circle wherepeople working with it could
come back and and skill shareand support each other.
And RCS hosted that until 2023,at which point it made the most

(02:33:41):
sense to allow the Quantum Leapprogram, which we call this, to
be hosted by its ownindependent body so that it
could be developed and extendedbeyond RCS's capacity to do that
.
So we feel very, very, veryintegrated and connected with

(02:34:04):
RCS and really part of theirfamily, of the menu, of
everything that a farmer couldpossibly need to know, from
grazing to profit to low-stressstock handling and fairy
whispering.
So we were inside of the RCSbody for 13, 14 years and now

(02:34:29):
the same characters have createdQuantum Leet Subtle Energy.
The same characters havecreated Quantum Leap Subtle
Energy, which is a non-profit.
That's allowing us to expandour range of offerings as well
as the number of workshops.
But it's very much a continuousthread.
And there was a marvellousmoment at the conference when

(02:34:51):
Terry and I were still gettingto know each other and for some
reason or other we both pulledour pendulums out of our pockets
and found that we both had nutson the ends of strings.

AJ (02:35:03):
So Terry and I bonded by showing each other our nuts in
public in a dowsing sense, andnever, never, looked back all
right'll look forward to, toseeing that come to fruition.
Beautiful, very excited.
All right, patrick, I thinkwe've run the gamut and come

(02:35:25):
through the large part of theday and it's probably even time
to start getting dinner ready.
But you know I end with talkingabout a piece of music, what
comes to mind for you.

Patrick (02:35:36):
I think, probably particularly in context,
vivaldi's Four Seasons, I thinkas a piece of music that really
captures the spirit and essenceof the many moods of a landscape
, from its wild ferocity to itsgentle peacefulness.

(02:35:57):
It's a lovely piece of musicand it was a great favourite as
a child, and so I think I'd gofor Vivaldi.

AJ (02:36:06):
That's beautiful.
When I was 18, I think, and onStruggle Street, and you know a
long lover of rock and roll.
But at 18, Vivaldi was thefirst classical music I really
got into.

Patrick (02:36:22):
Oh yeah, and four seasons, was it and then I so
accessible, yeah, it's soaccessible and so well classic
it doesn't date no it doesn't?

AJ (02:36:33):
It's beautiful, Wonderful Patrick.
Thanks a lot, mate.

Patrick (02:36:37):
It's great to be with you Absolute pleasure, lovely to
meet you, lovely to have youhere in Vermont and thank you so
, so much for your interest inthe work and being willing to
share it with your audience.

AJ (02:36:50):
The music you're hearing is by Patrick MacManaway.
When I learned he played thepenny whistle, I asked if he'd
play it for us.
He said he was out of breathand practice but, blessedly,
wasn't too proud to let it fly.

Patrick (02:37:23):
My name's Anthony James .
Thanks for listening.

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