June 4, 2025 • 37 mins
What makes work meaningful, and how can leaders create that experience for their teams? Kevin is joined by Wes Adams and Tamara Myles, who state that their research shows nearly 50% of an employee's experience of meaning at work is tied to what their leaders do or fail to do. Meaningful work is the upstream factor that drives engagement, productivity, innovation, and the bottom-line results that organizations want. The conversation centers around the Three C’s of Meaningful Work: Community – Creating authentic connections and a sense of belonging among team members, even in remote or hybrid work environments. Contribution – Helping employees see the impact of their work and making clear connections between daily tasks and larger organizational goals. Challenge – Supporting team members as they grow, learn, and take on meaningful tasks, balancing stretch assignments with strong support.
Listen For
00:00 Intro: Why Meaningful Work Matters
00:45 Welcome to the Remarkable Leadership Podcast
01:35 Sponsor: Flexible Leadership Book
02:30 Guest Introductions: Wes Adams and Tamara Myles
04:01 The Origin of the Book and Their Research
05:35 The Leader’s Role in Creating Meaning
06:13 Why Meaning is Crucial for Performance
07:50 Leaders as a Leverage Point for Meaning
08:50 The Three C’s of Meaningful Work
09:53 C1: Community – What It Is and Why It Matters
11:12 Building Community in Hybrid and Remote Work
12:12 Inside Scoop Practice for Deeper Connections
13:16 Home Base Teams: Dropbox’s Neighborhood Model
16:59 High Purpose vs Low Purpose Team Activities
18:22 Empowering Employees to Build Community
20:06 C2: Contribution – Driving Greater Impact
21:33 Purpose vs Meaning – Understanding the Difference
22:11 Calendly’s Mission: Saving Time as Meaning
23:03 Storytelling and Making Work Personal
24:12 Highlighting the Impact of Individual Roles
25:07 C3: Challenge – The Growth-Minded Definition
26:04 Balancing High Challenge with High Support
27:40 Everyday Examples of Meaningful Challenge
28:43 Why All 3 C’s Matter – Not Just Contribution
29:32 Immediate Leadership Action: Give Positive Feedback
30:51 Meaning Can Happen in Any Job, Every Day
31:24 Fun Question: What Do You Do for Fun
32:39 What Are You Reading
34:25 Where to Learn More: makeworkmeaningful.com
35:33 Final Thought: Now What Will You Do
Wes Adams and Tamara Myles are the authors of Meaningful Work: How to Ignite Passion and Performance in Every Employee.
Wes is the CEO of SV Consulting Group. He partners with Fortune 500s and scaling companies to develop high-impact leaders and design operating structures that support high-performing teams. He is also a positive psychology researcher at the University of Pennsylvania, where he studies the leadership practices and organizational structures that help employees thrive.
Tamara Myles is an accomplished consultant, author, and international speaker with over two decades of experience helping leaders improve business performance. She is the author of The Secret to Peak Productivity, which introduced her proprietary Peak Productivity Pyramid framework. Tamara’s insights have been featured in leading publications such as Forbes, Fast Company, USA Today, and Business Insider. She has worked with clients such as Microsoft, KPMG, MassMutual, and Google. Tamara has a master’s degree in Applied Positive Psychology from the University of Pennsylvania, where she also serves as an instructor in the master’s program and a trainer for the world-renowned Penn Resilience Program. She is a professor in the Master of Science in Leadership program at Boston College, where she integrates cutting-edge research into practical applications for leadership and organizational success. She lives in Concord, Massachusetts.
https://www.makeworkmeaningful.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/wesadams1/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/tamaramyles/
https://www.instagram.com/tamaramyles/
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(00:08):
Meaningful work.
It's like the Holy Grail because, well,we want it.
And as leaders, we feel like for
our team's success that we need it.
We know thatmeaningful work is a good thing,
but we may not know how or what we can doto create it for everyone on our team.
(00:29):
We may be thinking, this is somethingthat they're either going to find or
not in this work, but it's our goal today
to help you think about meaningful workin meaningful ways
and to learn how you can create more of itfor your employees.
Welcome to another episodeof the Remarkable Leadership Podcast,
where we are helping leadersgrow personally and professionally
(00:53):
to lead more effectively
and make a bigger, positive differencefor their teams, organizations
and the world.
If you are listening to this podcastin the future,
you could join uslive on your favorite social channel.
And by doing that,you can get the information sooner,
which is to your advantage.
Because this is some good stuffthat we do here every week.
(01:13):
And you can find out how to join us soonerto know when these episodes take place
and how you can get connected by goingto our Facebook or LinkedIn groups.
Two of the places where these are livestreamed.
You can go to remarkablepodcast.com/facebook or remarkable
podcast.com/linkedin to do exactly that.
(01:35):
Today's episode is brought to youby my latest book, Flexible Leadership.
Navigate Uncertaintyand Lead with Confidence.
It's timeto realize that styles can get in our way,
and that following our strengthsmight not always
be the best approachin a world where more complex.
Excuse me?
In a world that is more complexand uncertain than ever.
(01:56):
Leaders need a new perspective,a new set of tools
in order to create the great resultstheir organizations and team members
want and need.
And that'swhat flexible leadership can provide you.
Learn more and order your copy now.
Remarkable podcast.com/flexible.
And with that let me bring in my guests
and you'll see their smiling facesas I introduce them to you.
(02:20):
Whoops.
If I can get my introductionto come back up.
There it is.
First of all, Wes Adams,he is the CEO of S.V.
consulting Group.
He partners with fortune 500 and scalingcompanies to develop high impact
leaders and design operating structuresthat support high performance teams.
He is also a positive psychologyresearcher at the University
(02:42):
of Pennsylvania,where he studies the leadership practices
and organizational structuresthat help employees thrive.
And also with us today is Tamara Myles.
She is the author of The Secretto Peak Productivity,
which introduced her proprietary peakproductivity pyramid framework.
Her insights have been featuredin leading publications such as Forbes,
(03:03):
Fast Company,USA today, and Business Insider.
She has worked with clients includingMicrosoft, KPMG, MassMutual, and Google.
She has a master'sdegree in Applied Positive Psychology
from the University of Pennsylvania,where she also serves as an instructor
in their master's programand she's also a professor
in the Master of Science and Leadershipprogram at Boston College together.
(03:27):
They have written the new book, That'sWhy They're Here Today.
The new book, titled Meaningful Work
How to Ignite Passion and Performancein Every Employee.
And with that, we should start to chat.
Good morning guys.
Good afternoon.
Good afternoon.
Good afternoon. Thanks for having us.
It's a pleasure to be with youand to have you here.
(03:48):
And, I love the book.
I want us to dive into it.
So probably the best place to start is.
So how did you end up at this book?
And, like, why this book?
So we met on the first
day of the graduate programat the University of Pennsylvania.
(04:09):
The Masters of AppliedPositive psychology.
And we came to the programwith very different
backgrounds, but with a very similar goal.
We really wanted to understand
how to make work more meaningful.
What is the leadership impact?
You know, our backgrounds.
Were different,but we had both experienced work
(04:32):
that was meaningful, that felt meaningful,workplaces where we felt energized
and engaged, and then we experiencedthe opposite, often in the same industry.
And so,
you know, what made work meaningfulwasn't always what we thought it would be.
And there were some surprises.
And we met on,the first day of the program and became
(04:54):
fast friends and started sharing ideas,sharing research and resources.
And decided to
join forces to do the first
academic, rigorous studythat really investigated
the leadership practices that make workmore meaningful for everyone.
(05:16):
That's actually where I want to go next,
because I hinted at this in the open that,
I think a lot of times, a lot of people,maybe they haven't really
thought about it, but their thought,if they have thought about it, is.
Well, it's the employees jobto find meaning in their work
or to find a jobthat they find meaningful.
And yet you say on page eight,
(05:38):
I'm going to read this from page eight,nearly 50% of an employees experience of
meaning at work is tied to what
their leaders do, or fail to do.
So we're going to that'swhere we're going to spend our time today
is what's what's the leader's roleand how this all fits together.
Anything before we get
we're going to get to the three C'sand all that stuff and unpack all that.
(06:01):
But before we go, there was,
any initial thoughtsthat you have about that statement,
or about what we should be thinking about
as we go into this conversationwith our leader hat on.
I would say two things.
One, the reason that this mattersis because meaning
is the upstream factor that drivesall of the outcomes that we want.
(06:22):
So you just talked about individually,of course,
we want to do workthat we believe matters.
You know, that we believeis having an impact
where we have an opportunityto learn and grow,
where we, you know, are able to connectwith people authentically.
That gives us well-being,you know, gives us job satisfaction
and those sorts of thingsthat keeps us engaged.
But also, it's the thing that drivesperformance, productivity, innovation.
(06:47):
And there are very strong linksnow between meaning and bottom line
revenue, stock performance, profitability,all of these things.
So this is the upstream factorthat drives those things that we want.
And the second thing I would say is that
leaders are a huge influenceand that you said 50,
you know, from the book 50%of how much I understand.
(07:09):
You said, well, I guess you you.
You repeated it from the book, but,you're.
Right,you agree with it, but you're right.
We did originally say it.
But yeah, it's it'sa huge leverage point, right?
There's been so much,
you know, I think research and literatureabout how we can do that for ourselves.
How do we find a meaningful career?
How do I,you know, find more meaning in my job?
(07:32):
But, the, the leaders role inthat has been,
you know, largely, you know, not ignored,but under researched, under focused on.
And so what we've really tried to do hereis highlight the importance that leaders
have in creating meaning and also providea playbook for them to do that.
And I think you've done that.
(07:52):
And, andand that's really where I want to go
is to think about thisleader's role piece.
And we'll get to the three CS in a second.
You talked about being upstream,and I love that there's a there's
a parable or a story or a joke,however you want to frame it in.
It's not getting upstream.
Like we can keep solving this problemthat's in front of us, or we can get in,
we can get upstream of itand see what's happening way up here.
That's the cause of all this.
(08:13):
And there's so many things that
we talk about in
the kind of work that all of us do,and that our clients all talk about,
they want and meaning is on, is in front,as you said, is upstream
of most all of that.
And so that's why I think this is sucha useful conversation for us to have.
And you guys have putsome very tangible stuff around it.
(08:33):
Specifically,you talk about what you call the
three C's of meaningful work.
And so,
we're going to I'm goingto I've got some specific things
I want to talk aboutinside of each of the three.
But why don't one of youjust tell us what the three are first
and then we'll dive into eacha little bit?
(08:53):
Sure.
So what we found through our study,you know, we interviewed
dozens of leaders that were intentionallycreating meaningful work.
And then thousands of people,that were experiencing work as meaningful.
And we found that meaning
comes from three main sources,and those are the three C's.
So the first one is community,and community is the sense of belonging,
(09:18):
the the feeling of being connectedto the people you work with
and that you can show up
authentically and bring your full selfand your full set of ideas to the table.
Community says I matter here.
Contribution is the feelingthat you're making
a difference, thatwhat you do has a bigger impact.
(09:40):
And so community,contribution says what I do matters
and challenge is the feeling
that we're learning and growingthat we can use our strengths
and bring the best of ourselvesto our jobs every day that we have leaders
who believe in us and see potential in usand give us opportunities to grow.
(10:00):
And so challenge says my growthand development matters here and together.
Those three CS,when all three are present, they really,
you know, inspire us and motivate us and,you know, cause us to become engaged
and excited about the work that we do.
More creative and more productive work feels meaningful when all three are present.
(10:24):
Community, contribution and challenge.
It's so I I've been preparing for thisfor day or so.
I finished the book,I've made all my notes and I just
had an insight that,if we have time before we're done,
I'll share an exampleof how all this works together.
But for now,I want to talk about community and first,
and people who are listeningmight be thinking about this.
(10:47):
Okay, that makes a lot of sense.
But ever since this thing
called a pandemic happened,that seems to have been upset for us.
Our folks aren't always together.
We're not always the same. Like so
the first thing I want to say is that
some people might be feelinglike that's harder to create than before.
(11:10):
So how would you respond to that?
And if you agree, what do we need to bedoing to as leaders to help overcome that?
I think you've nailed it, Kevin.
And I don't think it feels likeit's harder.
It definitely is harder,you know, especially
for those of us who are working in hybridor remote environments.
Even those of uswho are coming into the office a few days
(11:31):
a week, you know, we don't necessarilybump into other people.
We don't always havethose watercooler conversations
or have the opportunity to buildmore authentic relationships with people,
because when we're online,it can be very transactional.
You know, we're jumping into a zoomor a teams meeting.
We're getting right down to business,or there's a lot of communication
that's happening on slack or teamsor whatever program you use.
(11:55):
And so we actually have tointentionally create
that time that used to happena little bit more organically.
And what that means for leadersis part of their job now is to facilitate
that, to build those opportunitiesin, to create the space for that.
One of the folkswe really admire, Vivek Murthy,
(12:15):
who was the Surgeon Generalof the United States for quite a while,
he has a
practice to do this that he calls thethe inside scoop.
And so at the beginningof every weekly team meeting,
someone gets five minutesand they're invited to share a photo
or an object that they have at their houseor something.
And just tell the story about it.
(12:36):
You know, it may be, you know,a photo of your last vacation, or it
may be, hey, here's this,you know, gift that my mother gave me.
That means a lot to me. And this is why.
And it's a way to invite peopleto bring their full selves
into the conversationand to create that formal space
for building communityand building connection.
(12:57):
And that doesn'tjust make people feel good.
It also, he found, facilitatedmuch more effective collaboration
across the team and across you know, teamsin different business units.
So, you know, this is a really importantpart of why we show up to work
that can be missingif we're not making it happen.
(13:17):
One of the things,
that I foundreally interesting in this section
and it's just a it's just a short,short piece, but it's something, you know,
I've hadI've had a largely hybrid team for,
I don't know, 12, 13 years,a long time, long before
the pandemic and wrote three booksthat have the words long distance in them,
one of them before a pandemic beganand all that stuff.
(13:40):
But you talk about something in therethat I think is this wouldn't have to
only be for a hybrid or virtual team,but I think is a really useful idea,
which was the idea of home base teams.
Can one of you talk about that?
Because I thought it was brilliantand that's not something I'd ever heard.
I think I've got I have clients,we have clients that I think
(14:02):
could really benefitfrom that particular little idea.
Sure.
So, you know, I have three kids and and,you know, as
they went through middle school and,and I noticed that they were in different
schedules, you know, they all havedifferent classes and different.
But one thing that they do haveis at the start of every day
(14:24):
they go to a home base, andthat is their kind of group of 15 people
that they do things together with,not only to start the day and ground them,
but also to share experienceswith on field day and other things.
You know,they have those closer connections.
And so when we were doing the researchand noticing
(14:45):
that some organizations do that, and onethat we highlight in the book is Dropbox,
we kind of saw a lot of these parallelsbetween what education already
kind of gets rightand what some organizations are borrowing
from, from what's working in, in schools.
And so it's it's a practicethat we propose.
(15:06):
And the idea is thatwhen you have a, a dispersed team
and you have perhaps groups of peoplethat work,
you know, remotely, but in the same area,they can be in a home base.
And I think Dropbox calls it neighborhoodright there,
like in the Dropbox neighborhood.
And they these people, they don't needto work in the same function.
(15:28):
They can be, you know,it's actually better if they are,
cross organizationallyand work in different areas.
But they can be a home baseand they can get together either in person
if they are close enough to each other,you know, once a quarter.
But they can also be a groupthat comes together
in a, kind of,
with a regular cadence, whether it's,you know, once a month or once a quarter,
(15:52):
that they're, committed to being togetherto, to doing things together,
whether they are facilitated experiencesthat somebody at work facilitates
or whether there's like a leaderin the group that takes charge of it.
But the idea is to intentionallycultivate those connections
(16:12):
because they're so important for our ownwell-being at work, our own,
desire to show up and come in,but also for,
the sense of communityand the benefits that come,
you know, organizationallywhen we experience those connections.
100%.
And I think there's we could we could doI think the entire show on that point,
(16:36):
because I've got all these thingsin my head
that I would like to say,but we can't go there.
Right.
So one of the things like when I,
when I read a book,especially for the show, but
when I read any book,I usually find things that,
that strike me as in a way
(16:56):
that I'm going to be rememberingthat for a long time.
And one of the things for me inthis book is on page 88.
This is not a book report.
I'm not going to ask you to tell me.
Besides, I'm reading the Arc,so it might not actually be page 88
in the final book, but it's, it'sa, it's a model where you talk about
what can we do as a communitythat frames around
(17:17):
is the purpose high or low,and is the difficulty low or high?
And it's sort of for those of youthat are watching,
you can see it just looks like a four boxdiagram kind of thing.
And what I like about itis that during the pandemic,
there were so many people doing thingsthat were low purpose, low
difficulty, like a happy hour,icebreaker games, a zoom coffee.
And then people said, well,those aren't helping us.
(17:40):
Well, they did help usuntil they didn't help us.
And what you're really saying hereis be thinking about some other stuff.
How can we raise the purpose hereand tomorrow?
What you were saying about home basecould look more like that,
much higher purpose, but not necessarilythat high in difficulty.
But we could also have things that werethat are higher in difficulty.
(18:00):
So, I just really love that,
the, the tension or the connectionbetween those two ideas
and how we think about what we as leaderscan do
to build communityintentionally in our organizations,
whether, we're virtual, hybridor altogether
anything you either ofyou want to add to that before we go on?
(18:23):
I'd love to add, you know, I think thatit can feel very intimidating as a leader.
Now all of a sudden,
I have responses like, I have to, like,connect people and plan events for them.
And, you know, I have my work to doand all of this stuff.
And so I, you know,I think I would add to that idea,
read it, for example, does,something like this very well,
(18:45):
where they empower peoplewith the resources to do it themselves.
Right.
And so as a leader, you can
you don't have to be the plannerof all of these things.
You can simply be a facilitator.
They have a grants programwhere any group of
folks that work at Redditcan apply and say, hey,
we want to go to a baseball game together,or we want to take a lipstick
(19:06):
making class together or whateverthat thing is.
I didn't even know that existed,but I didn't either. I didn't either.
And so we.
You know, did this research,but it is a real thing, apparently.
I'm not a user,so I wouldn't be the right.
So, I.
Don't know, I could.
Tell you Friday about all of that,
especially on the lower difficultyend of this is it doesn't even have to be.
(19:27):
It can be stuff that we integrate.
It goes back to the ideaof making it intentional.
How do we find ways to integrate?
How do we create more interactionrather less, as you said,
rather than simply transaction?
I think that's that's critical.
We could spend, a lot of time oncommunity, but I'm looking at the clock.
I need us to move on.
I want us to talk about contribution.
(19:48):
And when we think about contribution, andcertainly when I think about folks who,
have had sort of grown up in and studiedin the positive psychology world,
we would certainly I would have been
surprised if there wasn't a chapterabout feedback here,
and certainly feedback as it relatesto contribution is important.
But this idea of how
(20:09):
do we help people see bigger impact,which is another section here.
I'd like us to go there West.
Can you tell us a little bit moreabout what you mean
by that about in termsof having a bigger impact?
Absolutely.
I think this is where,
the idea of meaning and purposesometimes get conflated, right?
And the distinction here is,you know, purpose is this idea of having
(20:31):
a larger goal, having something biggerthat you're working towards.
Right.
And that's important.
And I think we really encourage that.
And meaning comes from seeing,
you know, an advance towards that
purpose, seeing progress towardssomething that matters.
Right. It's not just having won it.
You have to activate itby actually doing something to get there.
(20:53):
And so whether that's something worldchanging,
you know, you're working at a nonprofitand you're
making a difference in people's lives,or if that's even
just advancing organizational strategyas an employee,
I want to know how the work that I'm doingday to day ladders up to that.
Right. How do you connect the dots for me?
How do you create a clear line of sightin between what I'm doing and how that's
(21:17):
helping advance what matters to the teamor what matters to the organization?
And so, Calendly, actuallydoes this really well.
So Calendly the scheduling software thatprobably most of us are familiar with,
you know, is is essentiallyvery transactional software, right?
It's like, hey,I need to schedule a meeting with you.
We're gonna,you know, do a little back and forth.
(21:39):
And the,you know, the mission of Calendly,
though, is to save people time, right?
They estimate they save about an houra week, of back and forth from people
not having to, you know,do the emails to schedule meetings.
And Tope,I want Tona, who's the CEO and founder,
tells this story in a really powerful way.
So, you know, he talks about how,people can do something with that hour.
(22:03):
You know, that hour that you get back.
Oh, it's, you know,
you can do some more meaningful work,or maybe that's an hour you go
and spend more time with your familyduring the week, right?
If you add that upover the course of the year,
that's like a week's worth of workthat you get back.
Right?
And so when he meets somebodythat uses Calendly, he asks them about,
(22:23):
you know, what they're doing with thathour or the time that they got back.
And then he'll make a video about thatand tell that story of what the, you know,
the customer is doingand send that to the team so that,
you know, for example, the personmaking the iPhone app, the developer
who's sitting,you know, at home coding all day
and never actually interactswith, you know, usually.
(22:46):
Got a face.
Now they've got a story right nowthey've got something to connect to that,
that to me, maybe the other oneof the other things I really love about
the book is actually the chapterthat follows, around greater impact.
And it's the idea of personal connection.
It's something that we've we've consultedwith clients on a lot over the years.
And it's that idea.
You have a couple stories in the book,
(23:07):
one about peoplecoding for trucking companies,
and then when they send people outto a warehouse or a logistical site,
or maybe even got someone in a truck,like it changed everything.
Like once people can say, I'm not justdoing this thing, I'm doing it for Joe.
Yeah, or Joe's my avatar here.
It's not just this thing that I read abouton, in an email.
(23:29):
Like, it changes everything, right?
So tomorrow,what would you say about that?
To help people think about how
how do
we help people make this meaningmore personal?
What can we be doingas leaders to help make that happen?
I think a key finding in our researchwas the power of storytelling,
(23:50):
and in specifically
to highlighting exactlywhat you said to bring this up,
this this personal aspectand the bigger impact
aspect of what people are doingevery day to life.
Right?
And so it really isabout telling the story,
because so much of meaning in lifeand meaningful work
(24:12):
is related to storytelling.
It's the stories we tell ourselves.
And so we are always telling ourselvesstory and stories,
and we're going to do that about our jobs.
Whether the leader helps us or not.
You know, we're going to create a storyabout what it is that we do.
And so when a leader can help uscraft that story and connect it
(24:33):
to people that are impacted
by what we're doing, that is so powerful,
that is so powerful,and it can happen in any job.
And, you know, every job can be meaningfulbecause everything
that we're doing every day,whether it's responding to emails
or drafting proposalsor creating spreadsheets,
(24:56):
those are all adding up to somethingbigger.
And, it's, you know, it's really helpfulwhen somebody can help us
see what that bigger thing is, especiallyif it's connected to other people.
The third see is challenge.
And as I was reading the book,
I was thinking about somethingthat happened on our team last week.
(25:17):
The word challenge came up in a contextthat doesn't necessarily matter
for this conversation,but one of the members of my sales team
said, like,
I don't like us
when we use that word because people havealready got plenty of challenges at work,
and we were trying to use itin a different way.
And, and the way she was seeingthat word was as a,
(25:37):
a potentially negative word.
That'scertainly not what you're saying here.
And so,
the reason I share
that is because others, as they'renow hearing us use the word challenge
here, might be sort of channelingtheir inner Marlene on our team.
Right. So, what do you mean here?
And why do we see this as somethingthat's positive and powerful and not just
(26:02):
we'vealready got plenty of challenges at work.
Thank you very much.
I would say for the Marlene's out
there, you know, that are interestedin learning and growing,
reaching your full potentialthat requires struggle, right?
We grow through struggle.
We grow through challenge.
And in fact, when we ask peopleabout their most meaningful
(26:24):
moments at work, which is an exercisewe do often with our clients,
a very large percentage of the time,someone will talk about something
that was really hardthat they had to do a challenge,
a struggle, but that they made it throughor that they delivered on,
or they created these amazing connectionsas a result of going through that thing.
And so I thinkit's not always comfortable.
(26:47):
It doesn't always feel great in the momentto be doing those things,
but there's a huge amount of growth.
And through that meaning that can comefrom those challenging moments.
And I want to add two things to this.
You know,
the kind of challengethat we are talking about
is this kind of meaningful challengethat it's not just,
(27:09):
you know, a leaderkind of throwing people out
in the wild and saying,go do this like we need a done tomorrow.
You know, go do figure it out, right.
Those can be the kind of negativechallenge
you're talking about where we arein an anxiety zone,
where we don't feel supported,we don't even know where to begin.
But we're also scared to askbecause we're going to get fired.
(27:30):
What we mean is a high challenge,but also high support.
Having high support is criticalfor challenge to become meaningful.
Challenge in what we mean.
When we say high supportis anything from resources,
mentorship, classes, tools, you know,
(27:53):
so so when we have a hard assignment,something that's going to help us
learn and grow,but we also have high support.
We grow, we learn, we become fullyengaged, work becomes so meaningful.
And we rememberwe really remember those moments.
Since Iused Marlene's name and I didn't mean to.
(28:14):
And I'm sad.
I want to know that you love.You, Marlene.
We love you.
Marlene here because he isabsolutely has a growth mindset.
She absolutely.
But but I the reason I used her,
the reason I used herthat quick story was because,
well, I thinkI think everyone can can understand.
And I know that Marlene would agreewith everything you guys just said.
(28:37):
That word isn't as obvious around
around this conversation, aroundmeaning as is community and contribution.
And I think
most people would probably say, well,this meaning is about contribution.
And what I loveabout what you've done here is you
put the other two with it,and your research backs up.
It's the combination of those thingsthat matters the most.
(28:58):
And to take us back to where we started,
all of those things
will won't happen automatically,but will happen with the help of leaders.
And so for those of us listeningas leaders thinking about, well, what
which of these could I be adding andand doing more of and helping my team
see more of buildingthe connections to that
(29:20):
can make all of the differencefor the team?
I'm curious
to both of you if there's something
that you wish I would have asked, that
I didn't.
I would say, you know, one one
important part.
And I know we talked about contribution,as the, the connecting, to bigger impact.
(29:44):
But for leaders who are listeningand watching and want something
they can do right now, when they finishlistening and they go back to their day.
One very simple but very powerful practicethat they can implement
right away is positivefeedback is to say thank you.
There's research from Gallup and Workmanthat shows that one thing you once
(30:06):
a week from a manager is enough to cut
burnout in disengagement in half one.
Thank you once a week.
That's really powerful.
And so if you want to start making work
a little more meaningful, noticepeople notice what's going right.
What are they doing well,what are they engaged in.
And then highlight those things.Say thank you.
(30:28):
Let them know you've seen them,that you notice them.
Appreciate them.That can go such a long way.
I completely agree.
And and I didn't and everybody didn'tmean to give the feedback
piece a short shrift in the conversation,but I had to make choices.
Right?
And so I'm so glad that we didcome back to that.
I do appreciate that very much.
Was anything that you wishI would have asked
(30:50):
or that we would have talked about, thatwe didn't.
I you know, I think I.
Would just want to reiterate the factthat,
you know, meaningcan happen in every job, every day, right?
And that we aren't talking about, youknow, huge transformative changes here.
We can give people moments of meaning,small moments
every day that have a big impact.
(31:13):
And so really thinking aboutwhat are these little things
that we can doas leaders in the day to day work
that build up to largermeaning, I think is really important.
So before we finish,
I've got a question that I like to,ask the two questions.
Really?
They like to ask everybody,
(31:35):
and so the first one and tomorrowyou can go first on this one West.
You can go first on the next one.
First one is Tamara.
What do you do for fun?
Oh, gosh.
My most funendeavors lately is cheering for my kids.
My son is a wrestler, and my youngestdaughter is a lacrosse player.
And so being on the sidelineswith the community of other parents,
(31:58):
cheering them on, is really exciting.
He's also really good.
So that makes it more fun,I think. Exactly.
Can you guys still hear me?There we are. Yeah, I.
Froze for a bit.
I got we could hear your camera.
Stop for a moment, everybody.
At least it wasn't to embarrassingfor those watching of how I know, but,
let's.
What do you do for fun?
(32:19):
I love to travel.
I was just on a surfing tripto Costa Rica,
a couple of months ago, which was amazing.
And for me, just, you know,seeing different parts of the world,
seeinghow different people live is fascinating.
So that's somethingI try to make time for.
So the only thing you knew I wasgoing to ask was, have you go first here?
What are you reading these days?
(32:41):
So I'm just about finishedwith a book called lessons
from Plants by Brandon Montgomery,and it's really it's
it's totally a nerdy book,but it's essentially like the,
you know, the, like, the biology of plantsand how they communicate
and make decisions about how they growand what they invest in,
and comparesthat to leadership in organizations.
(33:03):
So it's, it's actually very cool.
Like,it's a it's a very interesting comparison.
So if you want to nerd out,I recommend you check it out.
When you think about when wewhen we begin to think
about organizations as more than justmechanics, but biological,
and natural systems, it changes that way.
And I think in a positive wayabout how we think about organization.
(33:25):
So I'm fascinated by that.
Where is it is the first timeanyone's mentioned that book on the show?
Like every bookthat's ever mentioned on the show,
it'll be in the show notes,with a link to get it.
Lessons from from plants.
Tamara, you said.
And before we hit the record button,before we went live, that you had
three books you're reading right now. It'sone of them.
So one of them is shift by Ethan Cross.
(33:49):
He's a professor at, Michigan.
And that's his second book.
His first book is also great,but shift is it's very well-written
and it's a great read,and it's really about learning
how to regulate our emotions every dayin the big moments, in the small moments.
And those are such valuable skills.
(34:10):
Both of those books, as well as
Tamara and Western's new book MeaningfulWork, will be in the show notes for you.
But where?
Where can people find more about you guys?
Where do you want to point people?
Where can they get the book?
What do you want to say about all that?Before we finish up.
Please come to our website.
It's,
(34:30):
dot make work meaningful.com.
And you can, find the book there.
But we also have a tonof free resources, tools from the book,
and even an assessmentthat we can take a self-assessment,
based on the research that we've doneabout your leadership and the three C's.
So that's a great place to start. As well.
And we're both on LinkedInand active there and on Instagram.
(34:55):
So follow us, reach out, slideinto our DMs, and we're happy to chat.
Make work meaningful.com everybody.
Now the question that I ask all of youthat are watching or listening,
and if you've been here before,you know, I'm going to ask.
And here it is.
It's the most important two word questionI could possibly ask you right now.
(35:16):
Now what what are you going to do?
Because if you were here and maybe it'sas simple as what Tamara said,
maybe you're going to say thank youto someone in the next ten minutes.
But it could be anythingthat we talked about today.
I'm not going to tell youwhat it should be for you.
I know the notes that I took.
One of itis to buy the book lessons from plants.
I'm just saying.
(35:37):
No, but but my point is that
the the only way this becomes
more than sort of edgy, entertainment
is if you take action.
And if you are a leader that would liketo have all of those downstream benefits,
like more engaged employees, higherproductivity and all those other things,
(35:58):
then hopefully you leave this conversationknowing that one of the upstream
things that you should be tryingto figure out how to do is to create,
help your team see and createmore meaningful work for them.
And so you got things here todaythat you can tangibly go try.
My challenge to youis to pick one and go start,
lesson tomorrow.
Thank you guys so much for being here.
(36:19):
It was a pleasure to have you.
Thank you for having us.Thank you so much.
Thank you.
And so, everybody, if you foundthis useful, tell somebody else.
If you found this for the first time,where have you been?
Make sure wherever it is that you watchor listen to podcast, that you subscribe
so that you come able to come back, tellsomebody else, we'd love
(36:40):
to have you do that. Why?
Because we're here every weekand next week we'll be back
with another episodeof the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.
Thanks everybody.
Meaningful work.
It's like the Holy Grail because, well,we want it.
And as leaders, we feel like for
our team's success that we need it.
We know thatmeaningful work is a good thing,
but we may not know how or what we can doto create it for everyone on our team.
(00:29):
We may be thinking, this is somethingthat they're either going to find or
not in this work, but it's our goal today
to help you think about meaningful workin meaningful ways
and to learn how you can create more of itfor your employees.
Welcome to another episodeof the Remarkable Leadership Podcast,
where we are helping leadersgrow personally and professionally
(00:53):
to lead more effectively
and make a bigger, positive differencefor their teams, organizations
and the world.
If you are listening to this podcastin the future,
you could join uslive on your favorite social channel.
And by doing that,you can get the information sooner,
which is to your advantage.
Because this is some good stuffthat we do here every week.
(01:13):
And you can find out how to join us soonerto know when these episodes take place
and how you can get connected by goingto our Facebook or LinkedIn groups.
Two of the places where these are livestreamed.
You can go to remarkablepodcast.com/facebook or remarkable
podcast.com/linkedin to do exactly that.
(01:35):
Today's episode is brought to youby my latest book, Flexible Leadership.
Navigate Uncertaintyand Lead with Confidence.
It's timeto realize that styles can get in our way,
and that following our strengthsmight not always
be the best approachin a world where more complex.
Excuse me?
In a world that is more complexand uncertain than ever.
(01:56):
Leaders need a new perspective,a new set of tools
in order to create the great resultstheir organizations and team members
want and need.
And that'swhat flexible leadership can provide you.
Learn more and order your copy now.
Remarkable podcast.com/flexible.
And with that let me bring in my guests
and you'll see their smiling facesas I introduce them to you.
(02:20):
Whoops.
If I can get my introductionto come back up.
There it is.
First of all, Wes Adams,he is the CEO of S.V.
consulting Group.
He partners with fortune 500 and scalingcompanies to develop high impact
leaders and design operating structuresthat support high performance teams.
He is also a positive psychologyresearcher at the University
(02:42):
of Pennsylvania,where he studies the leadership practices
and organizational structuresthat help employees thrive.
And also with us today is Tamara Myles.
She is the author of The Secretto Peak Productivity,
which introduced her proprietary peakproductivity pyramid framework.
Her insights have been featuredin leading publications such as Forbes,
(03:03):
Fast Company,USA today, and Business Insider.
She has worked with clients includingMicrosoft, KPMG, MassMutual, and Google.
She has a master'sdegree in Applied Positive Psychology
from the University of Pennsylvania,where she also serves as an instructor
in their master's programand she's also a professor
in the Master of Science and Leadershipprogram at Boston College together.
(03:27):
They have written the new book, That'sWhy They're Here Today.
The new book, titled Meaningful Work
How to Ignite Passion and Performancein Every Employee.
And with that, we should start to chat.
Good morning guys.
Good afternoon.
Good afternoon.
Good afternoon. Thanks for having us.
It's a pleasure to be with youand to have you here.
(03:48):
And, I love the book.
I want us to dive into it.
So probably the best place to start is.
So how did you end up at this book?
And, like, why this book?
So we met on the first
day of the graduate programat the University of Pennsylvania.
(04:09):
The Masters of AppliedPositive psychology.
And we came to the programwith very different
backgrounds, but with a very similar goal.
We really wanted to understand
how to make work more meaningful.
What is the leadership impact?
You know, our backgrounds.
Were different,but we had both experienced work
(04:32):
that was meaningful, that felt meaningful,workplaces where we felt energized
and engaged, and then we experiencedthe opposite, often in the same industry.
And so,
you know, what made work meaningfulwasn't always what we thought it would be.
And there were some surprises.
And we met on,the first day of the program and became
(04:54):
fast friends and started sharing ideas,sharing research and resources.
And decided to
join forces to do the first
academic, rigorous studythat really investigated
the leadership practices that make workmore meaningful for everyone.
(05:16):
That's actually where I want to go next,
because I hinted at this in the open that,
I think a lot of times, a lot of people,maybe they haven't really
thought about it, but their thought,if they have thought about it, is.
Well, it's the employees jobto find meaning in their work
or to find a jobthat they find meaningful.
And yet you say on page eight,
(05:38):
I'm going to read this from page eight,nearly 50% of an employees experience of
meaning at work is tied to what
their leaders do, or fail to do.
So we're going to that'swhere we're going to spend our time today
is what's what's the leader's roleand how this all fits together.
Anything before we get
we're going to get to the three C'sand all that stuff and unpack all that.
(06:01):
But before we go, there was,
any initial thoughtsthat you have about that statement,
or about what we should be thinking about
as we go into this conversationwith our leader hat on.
I would say two things.
One, the reason that this mattersis because meaning
is the upstream factor that drivesall of the outcomes that we want.
(06:22):
So you just talked about individually,of course,
we want to do workthat we believe matters.
You know, that we believeis having an impact
where we have an opportunityto learn and grow,
where we, you know, are able to connectwith people authentically.
That gives us well-being,you know, gives us job satisfaction
and those sorts of thingsthat keeps us engaged.
But also, it's the thing that drivesperformance, productivity, innovation.
(06:47):
And there are very strong linksnow between meaning and bottom line
revenue, stock performance, profitability,all of these things.
So this is the upstream factorthat drives those things that we want.
And the second thing I would say is that
leaders are a huge influenceand that you said 50,
you know, from the book 50%of how much I understand.
(07:09):
You said, well, I guess you you.
You repeated it from the book, but,you're.
Right,you agree with it, but you're right.
We did originally say it.
But yeah, it's it'sa huge leverage point, right?
There's been so much,
you know, I think research and literatureabout how we can do that for ourselves.
How do we find a meaningful career?
How do I,you know, find more meaning in my job?
(07:32):
But, the, the leaders role inthat has been,
you know, largely, you know, not ignored,but under researched, under focused on.
And so what we've really tried to do hereis highlight the importance that leaders
have in creating meaning and also providea playbook for them to do that.
And I think you've done that.
(07:52):
And, andand that's really where I want to go
is to think about thisleader's role piece.
And we'll get to the three CS in a second.
You talked about being upstream,and I love that there's a there's
a parable or a story or a joke,however you want to frame it in.
It's not getting upstream.
Like we can keep solving this problemthat's in front of us, or we can get in,
we can get upstream of itand see what's happening way up here.
That's the cause of all this.
(08:13):
And there's so many things that
we talk about in
the kind of work that all of us do,and that our clients all talk about,
they want and meaning is on, is in front,as you said, is upstream
of most all of that.
And so that's why I think this is sucha useful conversation for us to have.
And you guys have putsome very tangible stuff around it.
(08:33):
Specifically,you talk about what you call the
three C's of meaningful work.
And so,
we're going to I'm goingto I've got some specific things
I want to talk aboutinside of each of the three.
But why don't one of youjust tell us what the three are first
and then we'll dive into eacha little bit?
(08:53):
Sure.
So what we found through our study,you know, we interviewed
dozens of leaders that were intentionallycreating meaningful work.
And then thousands of people,that were experiencing work as meaningful.
And we found that meaning
comes from three main sources,and those are the three C's.
So the first one is community,and community is the sense of belonging,
(09:18):
the the feeling of being connectedto the people you work with
and that you can show up
authentically and bring your full selfand your full set of ideas to the table.
Community says I matter here.
Contribution is the feelingthat you're making
a difference, thatwhat you do has a bigger impact.
(09:40):
And so community,contribution says what I do matters
and challenge is the feeling
that we're learning and growingthat we can use our strengths
and bring the best of ourselvesto our jobs every day that we have leaders
who believe in us and see potential in usand give us opportunities to grow.
(10:00):
And so challenge says my growthand development matters here and together.
Those three CS,when all three are present, they really,
you know, inspire us and motivate us and,you know, cause us to become engaged
and excited about the work that we do.
More creative and more productive work feels meaningful when all three are present.
(10:24):
Community, contribution and challenge.
It's so I I've been preparing for thisfor day or so.
I finished the book,I've made all my notes and I just
had an insight that,if we have time before we're done,
I'll share an exampleof how all this works together.
But for now,I want to talk about community and first,
and people who are listeningmight be thinking about this.
(10:47):
Okay, that makes a lot of sense.
But ever since this thing
called a pandemic happened,that seems to have been upset for us.
Our folks aren't always together.
We're not always the same. Like so
the first thing I want to say is that
some people might be feelinglike that's harder to create than before.
(11:10):
So how would you respond to that?
And if you agree, what do we need to bedoing to as leaders to help overcome that?
I think you've nailed it, Kevin.
And I don't think it feels likeit's harder.
It definitely is harder,you know, especially
for those of us who are working in hybridor remote environments.
Even those of uswho are coming into the office a few days
(11:31):
a week, you know, we don't necessarilybump into other people.
We don't always havethose watercooler conversations
or have the opportunity to buildmore authentic relationships with people,
because when we're online,it can be very transactional.
You know, we're jumping into a zoomor a teams meeting.
We're getting right down to business,or there's a lot of communication
that's happening on slack or teamsor whatever program you use.
(11:55):
And so we actually have tointentionally create
that time that used to happena little bit more organically.
And what that means for leadersis part of their job now is to facilitate
that, to build those opportunitiesin, to create the space for that.
One of the folkswe really admire, Vivek Murthy,
(12:15):
who was the Surgeon Generalof the United States for quite a while,
he has a
practice to do this that he calls thethe inside scoop.
And so at the beginningof every weekly team meeting,
someone gets five minutesand they're invited to share a photo
or an object that they have at their houseor something.
And just tell the story about it.
(12:36):
You know, it may be, you know,a photo of your last vacation, or it
may be, hey, here's this,you know, gift that my mother gave me.
That means a lot to me. And this is why.
And it's a way to invite peopleto bring their full selves
into the conversationand to create that formal space
for building communityand building connection.
(12:57):
And that doesn'tjust make people feel good.
It also, he found, facilitatedmuch more effective collaboration
across the team and across you know, teamsin different business units.
So, you know, this is a really importantpart of why we show up to work
that can be missingif we're not making it happen.
(13:17):
One of the things,
that I foundreally interesting in this section
and it's just a it's just a short,short piece, but it's something, you know,
I've hadI've had a largely hybrid team for,
I don't know, 12, 13 years,a long time, long before
the pandemic and wrote three booksthat have the words long distance in them,
one of them before a pandemic beganand all that stuff.
(13:40):
But you talk about something in therethat I think is this wouldn't have to
only be for a hybrid or virtual team,but I think is a really useful idea,
which was the idea of home base teams.
Can one of you talk about that?
Because I thought it was brilliantand that's not something I'd ever heard.
I think I've got I have clients,we have clients that I think
(14:02):
could really benefitfrom that particular little idea.
Sure.
So, you know, I have three kids and and,you know, as
they went through middle school and,and I noticed that they were in different
schedules, you know, they all havedifferent classes and different.
But one thing that they do haveis at the start of every day
(14:24):
they go to a home base, andthat is their kind of group of 15 people
that they do things together with,not only to start the day and ground them,
but also to share experienceswith on field day and other things.
You know,they have those closer connections.
And so when we were doing the researchand noticing
(14:45):
that some organizations do that, and onethat we highlight in the book is Dropbox,
we kind of saw a lot of these parallelsbetween what education already
kind of gets rightand what some organizations are borrowing
from, from what's working in, in schools.
And so it's it's a practicethat we propose.
(15:06):
And the idea is thatwhen you have a, a dispersed team
and you have perhaps groups of peoplethat work,
you know, remotely, but in the same area,they can be in a home base.
And I think Dropbox calls it neighborhoodright there,
like in the Dropbox neighborhood.
And they these people, they don't needto work in the same function.
(15:28):
They can be, you know,it's actually better if they are,
cross organizationallyand work in different areas.
But they can be a home baseand they can get together either in person
if they are close enough to each other,you know, once a quarter.
But they can also be a groupthat comes together
in a, kind of,
with a regular cadence, whether it's,you know, once a month or once a quarter,
(15:52):
that they're, committed to being togetherto, to doing things together,
whether they are facilitated experiencesthat somebody at work facilitates
or whether there's like a leaderin the group that takes charge of it.
But the idea is to intentionallycultivate those connections
(16:12):
because they're so important for our ownwell-being at work, our own,
desire to show up and come in,but also for,
the sense of communityand the benefits that come,
you know, organizationallywhen we experience those connections.
100%.
And I think there's we could we could doI think the entire show on that point,
(16:36):
because I've got all these thingsin my head
that I would like to say,but we can't go there.
Right.
So one of the things like when I,
when I read a book,especially for the show, but
when I read any book,I usually find things that,
that strike me as in a way
(16:56):
that I'm going to be rememberingthat for a long time.
And one of the things for me inthis book is on page 88.
This is not a book report.
I'm not going to ask you to tell me.
Besides, I'm reading the Arc,so it might not actually be page 88
in the final book, but it's, it'sa, it's a model where you talk about
what can we do as a communitythat frames around
(17:17):
is the purpose high or low,and is the difficulty low or high?
And it's sort of for those of youthat are watching,
you can see it just looks like a four boxdiagram kind of thing.
And what I like about itis that during the pandemic,
there were so many people doing thingsthat were low purpose, low
difficulty, like a happy hour,icebreaker games, a zoom coffee.
And then people said, well,those aren't helping us.
(17:40):
Well, they did help usuntil they didn't help us.
And what you're really saying hereis be thinking about some other stuff.
How can we raise the purpose hereand tomorrow?
What you were saying about home basecould look more like that,
much higher purpose, but not necessarilythat high in difficulty.
But we could also have things that werethat are higher in difficulty.
(18:00):
So, I just really love that,
the, the tension or the connectionbetween those two ideas
and how we think about what we as leaderscan do
to build communityintentionally in our organizations,
whether, we're virtual, hybridor altogether
anything you either ofyou want to add to that before we go on?
(18:23):
I'd love to add, you know, I think thatit can feel very intimidating as a leader.
Now all of a sudden,
I have responses like, I have to, like,connect people and plan events for them.
And, you know, I have my work to doand all of this stuff.
And so I, you know,I think I would add to that idea,
read it, for example, does,something like this very well,
(18:45):
where they empower peoplewith the resources to do it themselves.
Right.
And so as a leader, you can
you don't have to be the plannerof all of these things.
You can simply be a facilitator.
They have a grants programwhere any group of
folks that work at Redditcan apply and say, hey,
we want to go to a baseball game together,or we want to take a lipstick
(19:06):
making class together or whateverthat thing is.
I didn't even know that existed,but I didn't either. I didn't either.
And so we.
You know, did this research,but it is a real thing, apparently.
I'm not a user,so I wouldn't be the right.
So, I.
Don't know, I could.
Tell you Friday about all of that,
especially on the lower difficultyend of this is it doesn't even have to be.
(19:27):
It can be stuff that we integrate.
It goes back to the ideaof making it intentional.
How do we find ways to integrate?
How do we create more interactionrather less, as you said,
rather than simply transaction?
I think that's that's critical.
We could spend, a lot of time oncommunity, but I'm looking at the clock.
I need us to move on.
I want us to talk about contribution.
(19:48):
And when we think about contribution, andcertainly when I think about folks who,
have had sort of grown up in and studiedin the positive psychology world,
we would certainly I would have been
surprised if there wasn't a chapterabout feedback here,
and certainly feedback as it relatesto contribution is important.
But this idea of how
(20:09):
do we help people see bigger impact,which is another section here.
I'd like us to go there West.
Can you tell us a little bit moreabout what you mean
by that about in termsof having a bigger impact?
Absolutely.
I think this is where,
the idea of meaning and purposesometimes get conflated, right?
And the distinction here is,you know, purpose is this idea of having
(20:31):
a larger goal, having something biggerthat you're working towards.
Right.
And that's important.
And I think we really encourage that.
And meaning comes from seeing,
you know, an advance towards that
purpose, seeing progress towardssomething that matters.
Right. It's not just having won it.
You have to activate itby actually doing something to get there.
(20:53):
And so whether that's something worldchanging,
you know, you're working at a nonprofitand you're
making a difference in people's lives,or if that's even
just advancing organizational strategyas an employee,
I want to know how the work that I'm doingday to day ladders up to that.
Right. How do you connect the dots for me?
How do you create a clear line of sightin between what I'm doing and how that's
(21:17):
helping advance what matters to the teamor what matters to the organization?
And so, Calendly, actuallydoes this really well.
So Calendly the scheduling software thatprobably most of us are familiar with,
you know, is is essentiallyvery transactional software, right?
It's like, hey,I need to schedule a meeting with you.
We're gonna,you know, do a little back and forth.
(21:39):
And the,you know, the mission of Calendly,
though, is to save people time, right?
They estimate they save about an houra week, of back and forth from people
not having to, you know,do the emails to schedule meetings.
And Tope,I want Tona, who's the CEO and founder,
tells this story in a really powerful way.
So, you know, he talks about how,people can do something with that hour.
(22:03):
You know, that hour that you get back.
Oh, it's, you know,
you can do some more meaningful work,or maybe that's an hour you go
and spend more time with your familyduring the week, right?
If you add that upover the course of the year,
that's like a week's worth of workthat you get back.
Right?
And so when he meets somebodythat uses Calendly, he asks them about,
(22:23):
you know, what they're doing with thathour or the time that they got back.
And then he'll make a video about thatand tell that story of what the, you know,
the customer is doingand send that to the team so that,
you know, for example, the personmaking the iPhone app, the developer
who's sitting,you know, at home coding all day
and never actually interactswith, you know, usually.
(22:46):
Got a face.
Now they've got a story right nowthey've got something to connect to that,
that to me, maybe the other oneof the other things I really love about
the book is actually the chapterthat follows, around greater impact.
And it's the idea of personal connection.
It's something that we've we've consultedwith clients on a lot over the years.
And it's that idea.
You have a couple stories in the book,
(23:07):
one about peoplecoding for trucking companies,
and then when they send people outto a warehouse or a logistical site,
or maybe even got someone in a truck,like it changed everything.
Like once people can say, I'm not justdoing this thing, I'm doing it for Joe.
Yeah, or Joe's my avatar here.
It's not just this thing that I read abouton, in an email.
(23:29):
Like, it changes everything, right?
So tomorrow,what would you say about that?
To help people think about how
how do
we help people make this meaningmore personal?
What can we be doingas leaders to help make that happen?
I think a key finding in our researchwas the power of storytelling,
(23:50):
and in specifically
to highlighting exactlywhat you said to bring this up,
this this personal aspectand the bigger impact
aspect of what people are doingevery day to life.
Right?
And so it really isabout telling the story,
because so much of meaning in lifeand meaningful work
(24:12):
is related to storytelling.
It's the stories we tell ourselves.
And so we are always telling ourselvesstory and stories,
and we're going to do that about our jobs.
Whether the leader helps us or not.
You know, we're going to create a storyabout what it is that we do.
And so when a leader can help uscraft that story and connect it
(24:33):
to people that are impacted
by what we're doing, that is so powerful,
that is so powerful,and it can happen in any job.
And, you know, every job can be meaningfulbecause everything
that we're doing every day,whether it's responding to emails
or drafting proposalsor creating spreadsheets,
(24:56):
those are all adding up to somethingbigger.
And, it's, you know, it's really helpfulwhen somebody can help us
see what that bigger thing is, especiallyif it's connected to other people.
The third see is challenge.
And as I was reading the book,
I was thinking about somethingthat happened on our team last week.
(25:17):
The word challenge came up in a contextthat doesn't necessarily matter
for this conversation,but one of the members of my sales team
said, like,
I don't like us
when we use that word because people havealready got plenty of challenges at work,
and we were trying to use itin a different way.
And, and the way she was seeingthat word was as a,
(25:37):
a potentially negative word.
That'scertainly not what you're saying here.
And so,
the reason I share
that is because others, as they'renow hearing us use the word challenge
here, might be sort of channelingtheir inner Marlene on our team.
Right. So, what do you mean here?
And why do we see this as somethingthat's positive and powerful and not just
(26:02):
we'vealready got plenty of challenges at work.
Thank you very much.
I would say for the Marlene's out
there, you know, that are interestedin learning and growing,
reaching your full potentialthat requires struggle, right?
We grow through struggle.
We grow through challenge.
And in fact, when we ask peopleabout their most meaningful
(26:24):
moments at work, which is an exercisewe do often with our clients,
a very large percentage of the time,someone will talk about something
that was really hardthat they had to do a challenge,
a struggle, but that they made it throughor that they delivered on,
or they created these amazing connectionsas a result of going through that thing.
And so I thinkit's not always comfortable.
(26:47):
It doesn't always feel great in the momentto be doing those things,
but there's a huge amount of growth.
And through that meaning that can comefrom those challenging moments.
And I want to add two things to this.
You know,
the kind of challengethat we are talking about
is this kind of meaningful challengethat it's not just,
(27:09):
you know, a leaderkind of throwing people out
in the wild and saying,go do this like we need a done tomorrow.
You know, go do figure it out, right.
Those can be the kind of negativechallenge
you're talking about where we arein an anxiety zone,
where we don't feel supported,we don't even know where to begin.
But we're also scared to askbecause we're going to get fired.
(27:30):
What we mean is a high challenge,but also high support.
Having high support is criticalfor challenge to become meaningful.
Challenge in what we mean.
When we say high supportis anything from resources,
mentorship, classes, tools, you know,
(27:53):
so so when we have a hard assignment,something that's going to help us
learn and grow,but we also have high support.
We grow, we learn, we become fullyengaged, work becomes so meaningful.
And we rememberwe really remember those moments.
Since Iused Marlene's name and I didn't mean to.
(28:14):
And I'm sad.
I want to know that you love.You, Marlene.
We love you.
Marlene here because he isabsolutely has a growth mindset.
She absolutely.
But but I the reason I used her,
the reason I used herthat quick story was because,
well, I thinkI think everyone can can understand.
And I know that Marlene would agreewith everything you guys just said.
(28:37):
That word isn't as obvious around
around this conversation, aroundmeaning as is community and contribution.
And I think
most people would probably say, well,this meaning is about contribution.
And what I loveabout what you've done here is you
put the other two with it,and your research backs up.
It's the combination of those thingsthat matters the most.
(28:58):
And to take us back to where we started,
all of those things
will won't happen automatically,but will happen with the help of leaders.
And so for those of us listeningas leaders thinking about, well, what
which of these could I be adding andand doing more of and helping my team
see more of buildingthe connections to that
(29:20):
can make all of the differencefor the team?
I'm curious
to both of you if there's something
that you wish I would have asked, that
I didn't.
I would say, you know, one one
important part.
And I know we talked about contribution,as the, the connecting, to bigger impact.
(29:44):
But for leaders who are listeningand watching and want something
they can do right now, when they finishlistening and they go back to their day.
One very simple but very powerful practicethat they can implement
right away is positivefeedback is to say thank you.
There's research from Gallup and Workmanthat shows that one thing you once
(30:06):
a week from a manager is enough to cut
burnout in disengagement in half one.
Thank you once a week.
That's really powerful.
And so if you want to start making work
a little more meaningful, noticepeople notice what's going right.
What are they doing well,what are they engaged in.
And then highlight those things.Say thank you.
(30:28):
Let them know you've seen them,that you notice them.
Appreciate them.That can go such a long way.
I completely agree.
And and I didn't and everybody didn'tmean to give the feedback
piece a short shrift in the conversation,but I had to make choices.
Right?
And so I'm so glad that we didcome back to that.
I do appreciate that very much.
Was anything that you wishI would have asked
(30:50):
or that we would have talked about, thatwe didn't.
I you know, I think I.
Would just want to reiterate the factthat,
you know, meaningcan happen in every job, every day, right?
And that we aren't talking about, youknow, huge transformative changes here.
We can give people moments of meaning,small moments
every day that have a big impact.
(31:13):
And so really thinking aboutwhat are these little things
that we can doas leaders in the day to day work
that build up to largermeaning, I think is really important.
So before we finish,
I've got a question that I like to,ask the two questions.
Really?
They like to ask everybody,
(31:35):
and so the first one and tomorrowyou can go first on this one West.
You can go first on the next one.
First one is Tamara.
What do you do for fun?
Oh, gosh.
My most funendeavors lately is cheering for my kids.
My son is a wrestler, and my youngestdaughter is a lacrosse player.
And so being on the sidelineswith the community of other parents,
(31:58):
cheering them on, is really exciting.
He's also really good.
So that makes it more fun,I think. Exactly.
Can you guys still hear me?There we are. Yeah, I.
Froze for a bit.
I got we could hear your camera.
Stop for a moment, everybody.
At least it wasn't to embarrassingfor those watching of how I know, but,
let's.
What do you do for fun?
(32:19):
I love to travel.
I was just on a surfing tripto Costa Rica,
a couple of months ago, which was amazing.
And for me, just, you know,seeing different parts of the world,
seeinghow different people live is fascinating.
So that's somethingI try to make time for.
So the only thing you knew I wasgoing to ask was, have you go first here?
What are you reading these days?
(32:41):
So I'm just about finishedwith a book called lessons
from Plants by Brandon Montgomery,and it's really it's
it's totally a nerdy book,but it's essentially like the,
you know, the, like, the biology of plantsand how they communicate
and make decisions about how they growand what they invest in,
and comparesthat to leadership in organizations.
(33:03):
So it's, it's actually very cool.
Like,it's a it's a very interesting comparison.
So if you want to nerd out,I recommend you check it out.
When you think about when wewhen we begin to think
about organizations as more than justmechanics, but biological,
and natural systems, it changes that way.
And I think in a positive wayabout how we think about organization.
(33:25):
So I'm fascinated by that.
Where is it is the first timeanyone's mentioned that book on the show?
Like every bookthat's ever mentioned on the show,
it'll be in the show notes,with a link to get it.
Lessons from from plants.
Tamara, you said.
And before we hit the record button,before we went live, that you had
three books you're reading right now. It'sone of them.
So one of them is shift by Ethan Cross.
(33:49):
He's a professor at, Michigan.
And that's his second book.
His first book is also great,but shift is it's very well-written
and it's a great read,and it's really about learning
how to regulate our emotions every dayin the big moments, in the small moments.
And those are such valuable skills.
(34:10):
Both of those books, as well as
Tamara and Western's new book MeaningfulWork, will be in the show notes for you.
But where?
Where can people find more about you guys?
Where do you want to point people?
Where can they get the book?
What do you want to say about all that?Before we finish up.
Please come to our website.
It's,
(34:30):
dot make work meaningful.com.
And you can, find the book there.
But we also have a tonof free resources, tools from the book,
and even an assessmentthat we can take a self-assessment,
based on the research that we've doneabout your leadership and the three C's.
So that's a great place to start. As well.
And we're both on LinkedInand active there and on Instagram.
(34:55):
So follow us, reach out, slideinto our DMs, and we're happy to chat.
Make work meaningful.com everybody.
Now the question that I ask all of youthat are watching or listening,
and if you've been here before,you know, I'm going to ask.
And here it is.
It's the most important two word questionI could possibly ask you right now.
(35:16):
Now what what are you going to do?
Because if you were here and maybe it'sas simple as what Tamara said,
maybe you're going to say thank youto someone in the next ten minutes.
But it could be anythingthat we talked about today.
I'm not going to tell youwhat it should be for you.
I know the notes that I took.
One of itis to buy the book lessons from plants.
I'm just saying.
(35:37):
No, but but my point is that
the the only way this becomes
more than sort of edgy, entertainment
is if you take action.
And if you are a leader that would liketo have all of those downstream benefits,
like more engaged employees, higherproductivity and all those other things,
(35:58):
then hopefully you leave this conversationknowing that one of the upstream
things that you should be tryingto figure out how to do is to create,
help your team see and createmore meaningful work for them.
And so you got things here todaythat you can tangibly go try.
My challenge to youis to pick one and go start,
lesson tomorrow.
Thank you guys so much for being here.
(36:19):
It was a pleasure to have you.
Thank you for having us.Thank you so much.
Thank you.
And so, everybody, if you foundthis useful, tell somebody else.
If you found this for the first time,where have you been?
Make sure wherever it is that you watchor listen to podcast, that you subscribe
so that you come able to come back, tellsomebody else, we'd love
(36:40):
to have you do that. Why?
Because we're here every weekand next week we'll be back
with another episodeof the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.
Thanks everybody.
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