Ep. 683: What Would Steve Sherk Do?

This week on the show, I’m running Steve Sherk through our “What Would You Do?” gauntlet, giving us insight into exactly how he’d handle some of the most challenging deer hunting scenarios I could throw at him.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to
the Whitetail woods presented by First Light, creating proven versatile
hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light
Go farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on
the show, I'm running Steve Shirk through our what would
you Do gauntlet, getting us insight into exactly how we'd
handle some of the most challenging deer hunting scenarios. I
can throw them all right, and welcome to the Wired

(00:42):
to Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light and
our Camel for Conservation initiative. Every piece of First Light
gear in our white tail Camel pattern that specter. A
percent of each one of those sales is going to
go back to the National Deer Association to help with
their mission to fight for deer and deer hunters all

(01:02):
across the country. Good stuff. So this week on the show,
we are continuing are what would You Do series, in
which we are running our guests during the month of
August through a gauntlet of different situations, very specific hypothetical
deer hunting scenarios to see how they would deal with them,
what they would be thinking about, what their thought process

(01:24):
would be, what they're going to consider, and how they
would actually execute on that plan. And today our guest
is Steve Shirk. Steve Hale's from the mountains of Pennsylvania,
where he's made a name for himself chasing big woods,
big mountain bucks across the state's vast public lands. And
he's not just doing it successfully for himself, he's also

(01:45):
leading dozens of other hunters to success through his outfitting business,
Shirks Guide Service. So in addition to all that, he
is also somehow finding time to share his insights through
articles he writes for North American Whitetail, all sorts of
YouTube videos and podcasts, and plenty of other things too.
So in short, Steve is a wealth of information and
a go to source for expert advice on hunting DIY

(02:09):
public land bucks. Which is why I'm so excited to
get to talk to him today and to run him
through the gauntlet. So that's what we're gonna do today.
I've got a lot of interesting questions and scenarios for him,
but before we get into that, I do just want
to pause briefly and thank all of you who came
out to our Working for Wildlife tour this past weekend

(02:31):
in Missouri. Man, it was awesome. We had a great
show on showing. I think it's the word I'm looking
for you a great showing or turnout. Maybe it would
be the better choice of people who came out to
volunteer on this piece of public land there in eastern Missouri.
It was a really cool event. We did a kind
of a diverse array of different things. We were cutting

(02:52):
invasive woody trees out of wetland areas, so we'removing willows
and different things are going to crowd out that important
wetland habitat in this area. We installed owl purchase for
short eared owls, which are an important species of conservation
need I believe out there in Missouri, and these these
owls are coming from across the continent and wintering here

(03:13):
in this area. So we installed these different kind of
wooden snag purchase. Out in the prairie habitat. We were
collecting seeds from some of the native prairie in which
they could use those seeds later for re replanting and
restoration of prairie habitat. Elsewhere, we were building wood duck boxes,

(03:35):
repairing blinds for they've got some pre installed blinds for
handicap access on this piece of public land. So there's
folks working on that. All sorts of really good things
going on that we're going to improve wildlife habitat or
improve you know, the situation for hunters or other recorators
out there, which was just a really cool thing to
be a part of. I think everyone had a really

(03:56):
good time. And after the volunteer day there was a
social event in which there was a number of different speakers,
some from the Missouri Department of Conservation, and then myself
I shared a story and talked a little bit about
stewardship and some of my experiences there. So man, great time.
Just wanted to again reiterate how much I appreciate everyone

(04:19):
showing up for that being a part of it. I
hope you all enjoyed it as much as I did.
We've got two more events coming up. There's gonna be
one in Mississippi at the end of September, and then
there's one in Kentucky in the middle of October, so
if you're in those regions, stay tuned. More details to come.
Looking forward to meeting plenty more of you having good

(04:41):
time out there and doing something good for wildlife. So
with out of the way, I do think we should
get to our main event today. We've got Steve Shirk,
We've got some really interesting hunting scenarios, we got some
learning to do. Let's get to it all right here

(05:05):
with me now I have got the one and only
Steve Shirk. Welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
Steve, Hey, thanks a lot for having me.

Speaker 2 (05:13):
I'm glad we're making this happen. You've you've made a
name for yourself in recent years across the whitetail web,
and you've got what seems like a really interesting skill
set in your region, and you're doing it at a
really consistent rate with a high quantity of success. And

(05:33):
the fact that you also, you know, run a guide
service I think makes you even more interesting maybe than
just a guy who hunts for himself, because you've got
a whole different level of pressure and a whole different
level of data points. I've always thought that outfitters have
this really interesting, you know, view of the world because

(05:53):
they aren't just observing what they see in the woods themselves.
They talk to the different people that are hunting with
them every day, every week and you get it must
be a boatload of information you're getting in. So it's
all that said, I'm counting on you to be like
an absolute banger of a guest for our gauntlet we're
gonna go through here today, because because you have the
minds of like hundreds of hunters in your head, I'm

(06:15):
gonna assume right.

Speaker 3 (06:17):
Absolutely, yeah, I know that you hit the nail on
the head.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
So so the gist of what we're doing here is
the what would you do? Gauntlet? So I'm gonna run
you through a bunch of specific hypothetical hunting scenarios and
then you know, I'm looking for you to walk me
through how you would handle it, what you would do,
why you would do it, and paint me as much
of a picture of that as you can. So do
you feel like you were up for that challenge?

Speaker 3 (06:43):
I'm absolutely ready.

Speaker 2 (06:44):
Okay, So in the interest of time, then we're not
gonna beat around the bush. I do want to know
if you've got a big giant buck you're excited about
this season, but I'll just let you slip that in
at some point through our conversation today, if and when
you feel it's appropriate because I want to get us
right into the meat and potatoes and stuff. So let

(07:04):
me just throw you kind of a softball ish to start.
I think it'll just warmed up. Given your experience a
PA guy who's hunting all sorts of public land out there,
it sounds like you've got a really a really in
depth knowledge of your home turf, of your corner of
the state. You're you're working a lot of land. But

(07:26):
what if I did this. What if I picked you
up right now and said you had to move out
of Pennsylvania and I'm going to drop you down in
maybe like North Carolina or Tennessee, you know, still kind
of that Appalachic kind of big timber mountain stuff, but
brand new state, brand new area. And I said, all right,
figure it out. It's late August. You've never stepped foot

(07:50):
out here. Walk me through how you would approach your
scouting and prep if you had to start from scratch
in you know, the National Forest down in Tennessee.

Speaker 3 (08:01):
Yeah. Just one other question too, that is this like
a pre scouting mission weeks ahead of the hunt? Are
we talking like coming in five days before the hunt? Yep.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
So let's say you are moving end of August. So like,
you know, right right about now when people are listening,
Let's say that's when you show up, and I guess
Tennessee's season though they opened pretty early.

Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah that's what I was thinking.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
Yeah, so you're going to be, you know, pretty if
not season's on, it's coming up very quickly. And so
so walk me through the prep, the scouting, the prep
or anything that might happen before you actually get out
there with a bow.

Speaker 3 (08:39):
Yeah. No, that's you know, even though I'm kind of
stuck to my home area, there's so much ground here
that I'm always learning anyways, and you know, I'm a
big boots on the ground type of scouter. I've learned
on public land you kind of have to look for
different things that a lot of people are, you know,
not really willing to put the foot work and the

(09:00):
sweat and equity into to try to stay away from
other hunters and try to find gear and individual bucks
that aren't getting pressured. I also think that a lot
of these bucks are catching on to the trends and
the patterns and what everyone else is doing. There's so
many of these podcasts out there and so much information
that it's like there's always something new every year that

(09:23):
someone like me or another well experienced hunter starts mentioning
that's working for them, and then everyone catches on to that.
So I'm always trying to evolve and do things differently.
So I'd be going into that area looking for overlooked areas,
maybe some more remote stuff hard to access, but I'd
be doing a lot of boots on the ground. Probably

(09:43):
the first thing I'd be looking for is trying to
see what food sources are in the area, is their
mass crops. I tend to stay away from clearcuts more
than what I used so I used to love hunting clearcuts,
but everybody's hunting them because they're so easy to from
the scouting that you know, once again, it's just another

(10:03):
thing you kind of have to adjust to. So I'd
be really spending a lot of time and like you know,
these more remote heart accessed areas, uh, looking also for
like you know, high stem count areas. We spend a
lot of time in higher elevations trying to figure out,
you know, some betting areas and just covering ground very thoroughly.

(10:28):
If it's late August early September, we're probably gonna start
to see a little bit of buck sign. I think
at that time too, you can catch your buck on
a decent daytime feeding pattern. So I'd probably be trying
to find somewhere where you know, food and betting was
kind of close. Maybe find some hot sign in those areas,
but overall, you know, more than anything, I would be

(10:49):
looking for those more remote hard to access that way, especially,
you know, when you throw hunting pressure in the mix,
that completely changes up you know, bucks, his patterns and
the way he's going to act. So it's so much
easier when you can find a buck that no one
knows about, you know, no one's, no one's bothering, and

(11:10):
you can catch him doing his usual thing. You know,
it's much easier to read his mind and what his
next step is going to be. So I think if
that answers that question decent enough, or if you want
to add on to it, I think That's where I'm at.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yes, So so I'm curious, you know, a day of
boots on the ground like that, Let's say, does that
look like you pick in a chunk and like grid
searching everything in that area, or do you go into
it with like some high led places on a map
and you're just walking from this place that looks good
to this place that looks good to this place. You
know what, like how does that actual day usually play out?

Speaker 3 (11:47):
Yeah, I mean the first thing, I'm really only looking
at a map, like the first time picking out an area,
and all I really look for anymore is hard to
access or areas that may not have a lot of
hiking trails or especially a lot of roads, or you know,
somewhere where there's pretty good stretch of ground that you
really got to put you know, put the footwork in

(12:09):
to get to. I used to not be that way,
but like I said, that's what I've had to had
to do over the years is you know, things started.
I'm not going to say that the hunting pressure in
my area is getting worse. It's just hunters are getting
smarter reading maps and figuring out, you know, where they
want to be that you know, I've kind of just
banked off of that change and you know, adjusted to it.

(12:31):
But yeah, just that first time I'm going to look
on a map and you know, I'm not looking for
much for terrain features right off the bat, or you know,
not doing any e scouting where where I can really
see what the habitat looks like. I'm just looking for
a really hard to get to area, difficult terrain, because
almost always that's where you're going to find a really

(12:52):
big deer, especially nowadays these you know, it may not
be the best habitat or the most perfect ridge to
bet on, but his number one need is security and
getting away, you know from other hunters. So I'm looking
for somewhere like that.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
Okay, So if I were to move your start date
up from you know, end of August, and instead I
said you're not showing up till October, and like it's
hunting season, it's one would you still go and do
this major boots on the ground cover everything and just
like do a rip off the band Aid kind of thing,

(13:28):
or would you approach your scouting and intel much more
conservatively because you know it's hunting season.

Speaker 3 (13:35):
I think I'd be a little more cautious. It also
depends on what stage of October we're talking about. I mean,
if it's early October, that's when I'm even more cautious
because it really seems like Bucks in my area they
really shrink up their home range. Then you know they've
just broke up from bachelor groups or solo. They're kind

(13:55):
of just in a new world at that time, and
they really seem to be really skittish, so I'd be
a little bit more careful. Then I'd probably focus more
on high elevation betting and see if I can find
some hot sign around the edge of those you know,
those betting areas and maybe try to catch that gear,
you know, more out of evening feed pattern, you know,

(14:16):
coming out of that betting area going to a food source.
But if it's like mid to late October, I'll get
a little more aggressive because that's when I start to
see Bucks doing what I call the rut shift, where
they're kind of breakout of that solo betting feed pattern
and they start paying you know, more attention to what
does are doing in their you know, in their home range,

(14:36):
and they will you know, one day they might bed
in one place, one day they might might another because
you know they're starting to expand and you know, look around.
So I don't think you're as intrusive that time of year. Plus, uh,
you know, there's a lot of sign popping up in areas,
and I think it's a really good time to hunt
scrapes and rub lines then, so I think you can

(14:57):
be a little more aggressive. At that time, you're just
defined hot sign.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
Okay, let's let's play that a little further than So.
Let's imagine you're in there in October doing your scouting,
and let's say you stumble onto like a no Questions
asked big Buck bedroom. You get in there, and all
the alarm bells start flashing, like you're like, oh man, like,
I'm in it, this is it? What do you do

(15:25):
in like in the moments that follow and then leading
up to whenever you might hunt it? And I guess
I will preface that by saying, could you also describe
for me what would you need to see for those
kinds of alarm bells to go off? So what would
it be that would make you think, oh wow, I'm
in a big Buck bedroom in the kind of places hunt?
And then what would you do you know? Following that? Yeah,

(15:49):
either if I'm scouting or hunting perspective, Yeah, so.

Speaker 3 (15:52):
Most likely I'm probably not going to run into a bed,
but I'm going to run into signs. The only reason
why I'm probably not going to look for a bed
is I don't really want to bump a deer out
of his bed at that time. I'm not saying that.
I do believe that you can bump and instill, you know,
dump or whatever they call it, bump and dump, but
I really don't want to bump that deer out of

(16:13):
that area if I can, so usually what I'll do is,
you know, I'll try to get on the fringes of
what I think is a betting area, and that's where
I tend to find quite a bit of sign I
call it like a neutral zone where a buck might
have a patch of cover that he's claiming, you know,
he's got several beds in, but you'll get a lot
of deer activity on that edge. It's kind of like

(16:36):
almost like a transition area that you know, deer may
not want to go in there and disturb him because
they might get their butt kicked, especially a younger buck,
but they will, they'll skirt those edges, and that's where
that buck's going to throw a lot of that sign
out because he's telling other deer, and he's communicating with
other deer that that's his area. It's kind of like

(16:59):
putting posted signs on the edge of your property, or
you know, on your property boundary. That's kind of what
that deer is doing. So that's what I'd be looking for,
looking for some hot, big sign, you know, on the
edges of thick cover high elevations, especially because I've at
least in where I'm from, uh probably ninety percent of
our buck betting is on the upper third, so that's

(17:19):
you know, even though that'd be a new area to me,
I would relate my past experiences here and find those
high elevation covers. But then I'm also looking for an
active scrape on that edge too. What I've found that
inside of those betting areas is, you know, a lot
of people associate betting is betting only. I find that

(17:40):
bucks do a ton of feeding in those betting areas,
and even though it might not be their primary food source,
it seems like they they don't come out of there
as hungry, is what some people think, and they love
to work like an active scrape kind of in that
neutral zone area. Even though he might be heading to
a primary food source, he might also be going to

(18:03):
that primary food source just for the fact that he
wants to socialize with other deer in his area. See
what you know, maybe what competition he has as well,
but I've done really well trying to find scrapes on
the edge of that betting, especially if it's on a
trail and enter an exit trail right on the edge,
like that's been a dynamite spot for me in the past.

(18:24):
That's probably where I would set up. The biggest thing, though,
it's going to be in the mountains, is you know,
how close do I think I am to where that
deer is actually betting? And is the wind going to
be consistent or not? So hard in the mountains sometimes
to find consistent wind, So that's going to be a
big part into it also. But then also sometimes the

(18:45):
way I look at it, you know, and even here,
because I may get to hunt a few times in
the early part of the season and that's it. I
do landscaping, so I'm still a little bit busy. Then
sometimes I'll just gamble like this is my time to hunt.
I may have three days, and I might just especially
if I was traveling on a hunt, maybe I only

(19:06):
have five. If I didn't see the right wind and
I felt there was, you know, maybe only one good
spot to kill that gear, I may just go in
there late, like the last hour when the winds die down.
That's what I tend to find is right before right
before sundown, you'll see a break in the wind and
a lot of a lot of the you know, the

(19:28):
activity or air activity is more thermal based than anyways.
So I might try to find somewhere where I'm on
the downhill side of that bedroom and those thermals are
starting to drop, but I'd probably be willing to gamble
in a short period of time anyways, and you know,
see what happens. But I'm looking for the hot sign

(19:48):
on the edge of thick cover, especially an active scrape,
because that's where that gear is gonna want to before
he heads to that primary food source. He's gonna want
to see who's been around the fringes of his area.

Speaker 2 (19:59):
So that situation, when you know you're scouting your way through,
you come across this edge where it's like gets really thick,
and all of a sudden, you's some good rubs, some
big scrape. When you see that first good sign where
you get the alarm bells and like, oh wow, here
we are. Is that as far as you go because
you don't want to spook them, so you don't want
to go any further. Or do you say, oh wow,
I think there's probably a buck bedded. You know, this

(20:21):
seems like I'm entering a bedroom. Will you do it?
Will you explore any more of the peripherary to try
to figure out where his main entry and exits out,
or to see if there is more signed anywhere else? Basically,
are you looking for the perfect spot right away? Or
do you say, all right, this is good enough. That's
all I need to know. I'm stopping now and I'm
gonna set up somewhere on here.

Speaker 3 (20:41):
You know, it would depend on if I was going
to plan to hunt that area of that day. I say,
if it was a day before, I'd probably scout the
whole perimeter of the cover just to see. I mean,
sometimes you think you found that magic spot, but sometimes
the grass is greener, you know, a couple hundred yards
away too. So But if I was you know, got
in there late. You know, it's two o'clock and you

(21:04):
know I found something pretty good and I wanted to
hunt that evening, that I would set up right then,
you know, if I felt everything was right as far
as wind and thermals, and you know, depending also on
how much time I had to hunt there but yeah,
it's just going to depend on, you know, when I
find that sign. But like I said day before, I'm
going to scout a little bit thoroughly also too, because

(21:25):
it's probably a place I've never scouted ever and I'm
just just learning this area. I would then do a
little bit of e scouting because I tend to find
that bucks like to bed on the edge of elevation drops.
So if I, you know, looked on my phone or
a map and I was like, well, you know, there's
a couple more good shelves up above me, I would

(21:47):
prefer to set up within the cover, then on the edge.
I tend to find a lot of these bucks don't
come out of those thickets until after dark. But you'd
be amazed how many kind of used that inside edge
of like like a staging area. He'll kind of wait till,
you know, he'll browse his way out to you know,
maybe to where he can see the open woods. It

(22:09):
doesn't quite pop out till dark. I would try to
push it a little bit if I felt, you know,
if you know, if there is a good flat there
that I could cut in on and too close to
an elevation drop. I thought that deer was going to
bet on, I would prefer to set up in the cover.
You also got to keep noise in mind too, Like
you know that deer is also not going to come,

(22:31):
you know, if it's like a real you know, thick
clear cut or just to thicket, it's so hard to
sneak into those spots quietly. Sometimes you have no choice
to set up on the edge. But you know, there's
so many different factors you've got to you know, you've
got to think about and make decisions on that. You know,
I think you are a little bit better to back
off and maybe hopefully you're within one hundred yards where

(22:53):
that deer is laying. But if you think you can
sneak another twenty thirty forty yards further, I mean it
doesn't sound like much, but telling you just getting in
that cover a little bit could be the factor between
ever seeing that year and you know, getting an opportunity.
So if I can sneak in there quietly, I'm going
to hunt in that cover. I like it.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
All right. Let's uh, let's take you back home. Let's
say you're back on your home turf, and yeah, I
guess let me clarify. One thing is it right that
you've run more than one hundred and fifty trail cameras
on any given year somewhere in that ballpark.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
Is it true, you mean? Or is it unethical? No?

Speaker 2 (23:46):
No, not that not an ethics question. I want to
make sure you got my numbers right. You've got a
lot of games though, right.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
Yeah, last year I had one hundred and round one
hundred and seventy five out last year. And that's just
also to get to clarify, that's in about a thirty
mile stretch too. It's not like I got seventy cameras
on a few square miles, so it's in a big area.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
Yeah, okay, So with that in mind, you've got one
hundred and seventy five some trail cameras scattered across the
mountains out there. You've got a plan in place, you've
scouted all off season. You're going into the season with
a specific set of target bucks maybe you're after. And

(24:27):
let's say it's that early ish part of October, so
you've got some stuff with regular work going on still,
but you do have some spots to hunt, some opportunities.
And let's say you're about to head in to hunt,
and what you find out, though, is just before your
big you know swipe you're gonna take it a couple
of target bucks. You get a brand new deer showing up,

(24:51):
brand new buck you've never seen before, a buck that
kind of blows everything else out of the water. So
we're going to another level of deer where all of
a sudden and he consumes you, and you realize WHOA like,
this is a deer that I have to drop everything
else to try to get a crack at him, because
this would be by far the biggest deer we've ever
ever heard of out here. Yeah, how does your trail

(25:13):
camera strategy or placement or checking of cameras change in
this case where you had stuff everwhere, you had a
plan in place, You had your places in specific spots
for reasons, but all of a sudden, new buck in
a place that maybe you don't have covered terribly Well,
what do you do now in that situation to figure

(25:33):
out this brain of deer in a new set of circumstances.

Speaker 3 (25:36):
Yeah, are you saying that maybe I just had a
random camera in there and all of a sudden I
got a picture of this mega deer.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah, let's say you've got one, yep, good.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
Yeah. It would depend on the time of day or
night when I got a picture of that, dear, and
how I would approach you. I mean, if I fits
early October and I get a daytime picture of that deer,
I'm going to say, like, holy Colin, I'm close to
where this geer is betting. If it's a night picture,
that's the whole different ballgame. Even though I would say

(26:08):
that time of year, you know, they're not covering a
ton of ground. That year could be two or three
miles away from where it's betting. You know, I'm a
huge uh not as far as how trail cam data goes.
And you know, I try to take every little piece
of intel of any photo I get, you know, so

(26:29):
you know, yeah, I'll make it. I'll make this the
hard harder question and say that, you know, I got
a picture this year at midnight and it looks like
he's traveling, you know, east to west. I'm thinking, okay,
because I you know, if it's in my home range,
even though you know, I don't know every square inch,
but yet I know I know my woods really really well,

(26:52):
I'm gonna I'm gonna try to figure Okay, what was
on this year's mind? Where was he coming from? Where
was he going? You know, at midnight, he could be
doing a lot of different things, but chances are he's
thinking food more than anything, primary food source. So I'm watching,
you know, is this gear possibly heading towards a primary
food source? You know very likely? Or you know, was

(27:16):
that dear heading towards water? But I'm trying to put
where he's you know, what what was on that deer's mind?
Where was he going? And especially the same thing, maybe
where he was coming from the direction of travel, Uh
is huge for me, and as well as too is
maybe paying attention to the weather, the upcoming weather and

(27:37):
what that was going to be. A lot of times,
you know, in a wind shift or weather front, that
gear may go on a little even a little excursion
during a weather you know, big weather front that time
of year too. But I'm just basically trying to get
as much information out of that trail camp photo as
I possibly can, and then I will start to make

(27:59):
up a game plan from there. If you want to
add to that question a little bit, you know, it
might it might be better. But like I said, I
take every photo. You know, I'm not going to say
little Bucks and does. But anytime I get a big
deer on camera, night day, it doesn't matter. I'm taking
information from that and I'm trying to think what that

(28:20):
deer was doing and where that deer was coming from.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
Okay, so you get this photo, you analyze that, You're
asking yourself all those questions the next day or the
next chance you get when you have the right circumstances
to go in there, are you going to do anything
to try to put more pieces of the puzzle together?
Like will you go and add a bunch of new
cameras into that zone to complete the picture, or will
you go do some additional on the ground scouting in

(28:44):
that zone to try to learn more? Like is there
anything like that that you'll do next?

Speaker 3 (28:49):
Yeah, the the you know, biggest individual deer that I've
ever hunted, I've always clustered cameras in those areas. What
I found is, you know, especially in the big woods,
it's not like these deer on the same path every day. However,
you know, there's these little little zones of movement that

(29:09):
you you know that you're going to find and taken
advantage of, especially closer to daytime hours and early October.
You know, you might hear a lot of people talk
about hotting food sources, but where I'm from, it's all,
you know, basically betting, you know, getting as close to
that bet as you possibly can. Like I don't find
bucks in the daytime unless I'm close to betting, So

(29:32):
I'd be clustering cameras, you know, around where I think
that deer is betting. But I'd also be real careful
on checking them too. When I cluster cameras, I'm usually
also trying to bank off of you know, I said
it like this and to other people other podcasts look

(29:53):
at it like how a baseball defense or baseball field
is set up. You got left right, center field, you
got the infield, and then you got you know, home plate.
I'm going to be using cameras and focusing more these
camera checks, like in the outfield of the field versus
home plate. I may sneak a camera into where I

(30:13):
think I'm going to kill that deer, and that most
of that data may be more for the fact that
if I don't kill that deer this year, I'm going
to learn a lot from that spot. But I try
to back off on checking cameras and you know, in
spots I don't want to put a lot of intrusion
and that you know, want to have less impact on
and I try to have more of you know, these

(30:35):
these safer intel areas that maybe that deer's coming in
at night, but yet I'm still not that far from
where he's betting. You know, I would say, like left,
right and center field, I'd be trying to play those
outer cameras and then based off what I'm seeing on those,
I'm trying to bank off of. Okay, can I get
a better idea where this deer is coming from a

(30:58):
direction to travel and those things, And a lot of
times if I see what I want on the outside
edge of cluster of cameras, I'll dive in towards home plate,
you know, make a move on them.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
All right, So two follow ups. Number One, when you're
going to go in season to add new cameras or
to check cameras, are you waiting for any particular conditions?
So what's what needs to be present, either weather wise
or anything like that, time of day whatever to go
in and actually do something like that, especially if you're
going to push in tighter closer to home plate. And

(31:33):
then part two would be for the folks who aren't
familiar with your typical trail camera set up, we should
probably just cover that off too, Like what are you
usually putting these cameras on? Talk to me about how
you're doing that and in a way that you think
gets to the right intel without you know, spooking deer.

Speaker 3 (31:51):
Yeah. Well, most of my inventory comes from creek bottoms
because there's hardly any buck betting here in creek bottoms.
I mean that's the lowest elevation. Like I said, most
of our bucks are bedding in high elevation, so mostly
all that activity outside of the rut is at night.
So that's where I get a lot of my inventory.
Especially creek bottoms generally have the main water source. It's

(32:15):
a big congregation socializing area. So you know, usually in
a good creek bottom, you're gonna have some really good
primary scrapes down there that you can get some really
good inventory and pretty decent intel. Also, like you know, say,
like it's early October, you know probably a lot of
times too about you know, eight nine o'clock, mature buck

(32:36):
will work its way down in that bottom and if
you can find where you got trails coming off hillsides
and mountains, and you can start to get an idea
where that deer is coming from, you know, just off
of the you know how he's entering that scrape or
walking that trail. So that's where a lot of my
my scouting is or checking cameras. Most of it's done

(32:58):
in the creek bottoms because like I said, I have
very little impact. But then I'm also I also got
cameras further up towards betting, and that's going to be
also based on what I'm seeing, you know, down in
those creek bottoms. If I'm seeing you know, where this
huge buck is, you know, hitting this primary scrape down

(33:19):
in this particular spot in this creek bottom three four
times a week, coming from this same trail every night.
You know, I'm going to know what that ridge is like,
you know that that he's coming on. I'm going to
know you know where if there may be another secondary
food source he's hitting, you know, that might be where
I'm going to put a camera midway up. I may

(33:40):
hunt that deer midway up or you know especially I'm
going to very likely know where that deer's betting. But
just because we're talking about you're talking about areas that
I know like the back of my hand. But I
would be, like I said, be putting a lot of
cameras down in creek bottoms where i'd have less intrusion.
But then when I start to see something consistent, then

(34:01):
I start working my way up up towards betting further
based off what I'm seeing on the cameras.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
So you mentioned that baseball diamond shape for the way
you're spreading your cameras. I was kind of envisioning that
as being like a horizontal baseball diamond and like you're
working your way across mountains, But it kind of sounds
like maybe it's an upside down? Is it actually that?
Usually home plate is like high up the mountain where
they're bedding, and then it's and then it widens out
going down exactly.

Speaker 4 (34:29):
Yep, because I sometimes at backfires because home plate is
more based on my prediction.

Speaker 3 (34:37):
However, sometimes too, I've got history with a deer where
I really am confident I figured out where he's betting,
but I keep that, you know, I'll keep one camera
up in near betting anyways, but those other cameras further
out towards heading down the ridge and you know, down
towards the bottom. That's where I can really get a
lot of inventory and intel and have less impact. I'm

(35:00):
you know what that deer. Honestly, some people might disagree,
but deer mature boxing I bet you would agree. They
don't mind human scent and human activity in those nighttime
areas because they know humans aren't in there at You know,
they they have those areas where they want to feel
more secure and that you know, further up into in

(35:22):
their betting areas. Those are the areas you got to
be more cautious about. But further away where I have
these other cameras that I'm getting intel from. That it
works out perfect that way, because I can, I can
be a little bit more messy. And you know that
deer doesn't doesn't even realize that I'm using all those
cameras to zero in on them. But yet, you know,

(35:44):
I'm not going in those those core areas or those
you know, those hot betting areas. I'm basing everything, you know,
off of those cameras further back. If that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
Yeah, okay, let's let's jump let's pivot a little bit here.
I might come back to cameras because You've got a
lot of interesting ideas on the camera front. But let's
let's shift a little bit, keep you on your toes.
Let's let's imagine you're hunting late October, not like the

(36:15):
very end of it, but let's say somewhere between, like
the twentieth and the twenty fifth, Okay, and you're hunting
close to one of these buck bedrooms. You're you're pushing
closer to home plate, and you go in for a hunt.
You're all set up, things are looking great, conditions are good.
Last fifteen minutes of daylight. The buck shows up, but

(36:36):
he's downwind of view and you see him wind you
and turn tail and take off the other direction.

Speaker 3 (36:43):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (36:44):
What do you do with that situation? From there? Are
you going to try to keep hunting that buck? Do
you give up on him and go somewhere else the
next couple of days? You know, what's what's your thought
process and plan for the coming days after that?

Speaker 3 (36:57):
No, I'd absolutely hunt that buck again, very likely in
that general area. However, I would not hunt that deer
from the same tree. That's any time I find that
deer catching on to me, even if it's uh, you know,
other deer that I spook. I'll generally make some slight adjustment,

(37:18):
try not to hunt the same tree, just for the
fact that, you know, deer start to recognize pretty quickly
that they're being hunted, especially on public land. I've even
you know, I've left tree stands and trees and you know,
and you can just start to see how And even
in the guiding business as well. We'll have a client,

(37:38):
you know, hunt a spot two three days in a
row and start to notice deer skirting around him. But
I would definitely hunt that deer again, but I wouldn't
hunt it from the same spot. That deer when he
comes in next time, We'll probably take a chance and
go further out around from where he smelled that human scent.
You know, I may I'm set up. You know, you

(38:01):
said how many yards away, like fifty or eighty yards
or something.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
Uh, you know, I didn't actually specify how far he was,
but if it.

Speaker 3 (38:09):
Was out of range, I would probably set up closer
to where that deer was, thinking that deer is gonna
maybe skirt around a little bit further, especially that time
of year two right before the rut, you know, it
gets real crazy and they start ranging I'm willing to
gamble a little bit more because that deer may not
be patternable much longer. So you know, I would gamble,

(38:31):
but I would probably hunt that deer from a different tree.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
How soon would you go back in there after? Would
you go that very next day and make that move?

Speaker 3 (38:39):
I probably would go right back in the next day
if everything seemed right. Usually that time of year as well. Uh,
I'm I'm hunting somewhat of a pattern of a buck,
you know, maybe you know, an active scrape line or
rub line. Then I'm getting a deer on pretty consistently,
so it's probably most likely going to be some consistency

(38:59):
of a pad where I'm like, I can't afford to
miss out on this, because once again, it's it's not
gonna last.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yeah. So, speaking of you know, observing deer doing something
and making adjustments, let's let's run you through one of
my favorite things to beat myself up over the head with.
And let's put you into November and you're setting in
a spot that you don't know super well. Maybe this

(39:25):
is one of the first times you've hunted in this
little region, but you feel good about it, like you
feel like you're in a spot for the right reason,
and it's the rut. You're waiting for something to come
cruising through or whatever. And you're sitting there in the morning,
we'll say an hour or two into your morning sit
and you see a shooter buck come moving through, but

(39:45):
he's out of range. And then a half hour later
you see another buck come through and do the same thing.
Do you do anything with that intel or do you so?
Do you do you move or do you stay where
you're at?

Speaker 3 (39:59):
Absolutely if when you see in the rut two bucks
on the same trail, probably nine out of ten times
there was a dough that they were following. And I've
made the mistake before, and I tell my clients that too.
And that's especially why you know we love mobile setups.
Is if there's very very unlikely chance you're gonna have

(40:22):
two bucks take the same trail for no reason, there's
a good chance there's either a hot dough or a
dough that's getting pretty close to coming into heat that
they were following that trail. Immediately set up and you
know somewhere downwind or you know, on a safe spot too,
you don't want to be set up, you know, ten
yards off of it. Either, but you'd be amazed how

(40:42):
many times we've had success doing that, especially that time
of year. You don't have to see the dough. That
dough could have came by at four am before you
got there, but you see something consistent. I also tell
my clients, and it's the same strategy myself, Like, if
you see anything consistent, you know, eighty yards out, but

(41:05):
every deer doing the same thing, multiple deer, I always
move because generally there's it's not just random, there's a
reason for that. You you know, you're hunting that spot
for the first time. You may not realize that you're
not quite in the zone of how deer use that area.
You know, you're you're kind of observing that area off

(41:26):
of that first sit. So any consistencies you see, move
on to them as fast as you can. Because especially
where I'm from in the big woods, I mean, a
good stand here isn't a stand you see a deer
from every day anyway. So I mean, if the action's good,
get on it, well you can, because it may not
be any good there the next day.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
Yeah. So so let's say, to be really specific, let's
say this happened at you know, eight thirty in the
morning when you saw that second buck come through, was say,
would you literally move, like as soon as that buck
gets out of site or would you wait till midday
when stuff's slowing down and you feel like there shouldn't
be as many deer on their feet and then tear

(42:06):
down and reset up. How quickly do you want to
make that change?

Speaker 3 (42:09):
As soon as that buck's out of sight is when
I would move. I mean, I would be real careful, listen,
watch really good. I might even glass, you know, all
around me, just to make sure nothing's coming.

Speaker 4 (42:19):
But I mean, if you know, if it is a
hot dough, it could be a minute or two or
I mean, God knows when something is when it especially
you know once again, and you know, because I relate
to a lot to what we're talking about, big woods
and you know, lower deer densities, less doughs.

Speaker 3 (42:38):
You know, you might have five or six dos in
a square mile and one of those doughs comes into heat.
Every buck in that area is most likely going to know.
So you want to get on that hot route as
soon as you can. You can't afford to wait till midday,
and you know, hope nothing comes, especially in the rut too,
Like there's just as good of a chance of killing

(42:59):
buck get noon or two pm in the rout as
there is, you know, any other time. So I'm going
to jump on that, you know, that sequence and consistency
and movement as fast as I can, especially based on
my own experiences guiding and hunting, like we've had a
lot of success doing that. I highly recommend it.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
Okay, all right, So then the next thing that might
hypothetically happen is going to be another one of those
head scratchers or get you stuck there spinning your wheels,
which is you go, you tear down your set, you
move to this new area, and you get to within
the you know spot you think you want to be,
and you're stuck trying to pick the right tree. And

(43:39):
let's say there is a there's a tree that is
in range, and it's gonna set up nicely for you
as far as giving you a good easy shot to
that trail that you saw those two bucks coming through.
Problem with it, though, is that there's a there's two

(44:01):
things wrong with this tree. There is a little bit
of a trail downwind of it, so there's like a
secondary trail kind of downwind. See, you've got like a
chance that maybe you know, you're going to have deer
come down win. The second thing wrong with it is
that it is a bean pole, so it's like straight

(44:23):
up there's almost no cover. You might be left out
to dry up there. So you could pick the spot
that's like the perfect location for the tree as far
as being giving the easy shot, but you're not gonna
have good cover and there's a chance that maybe there
might be some other deer passing down wind. Or you
can go and you can kind of move out from

(44:44):
that spot, and now you're gonna be forty three forty
two yards maybe forty four yards some of that ballpark
away from that main trail you saw. But it's a
big oak tree with a bunch of cover on it,
and now you're downwind of any kind of trail that
you saw when you were walking through there. So do
you pick the spot that gives you the slam dunk
twenty yard shot but it's a little bit riskier for

(45:07):
those two reasons, or do you say, I want the
safest tree possible and I'm gonna, you know, hope to
make this shot work, or call the bucket an extra
ten yards or or something like that.

Speaker 3 (45:18):
Yeah, and about forty yards are a little over. I
would rather take the safer route just for the fact that,
you know, I would say most archery hunters as well,
Like I almost almost feel like, you know, ethical shooting
is starting to reach out there more than ever. And
I'm not you know, I'm not saying that that I

(45:39):
think everyone should be shooting deer fifty sixty seventy yards.
I mean, that's to each his own, but you know,
a forty forty forty five yard shot is very makeable.
I would set up taking the safer tree with a
little more cover. I kind of like to stay back anyways,

(45:59):
just especially for the fact that even even down wind,
you know, or having the wind in your favor, but
a deer coming in really close to you, a lot
of people don't realize that you kind of have like
a zone of scent scattered all around the base of
your tree. Anyways, So I like to be thirty forty
yards back. I just feel a lot safer. I feel

(46:19):
like there's a lot more room, you know, for to
make less mistakes or for a deer to catch on
to your mistakes. I'm going to take that that that
big oak that has to cover forty forty five yards off.
I'd rather take a little bit further of a shot
than gamble, you know, being too close and that deer
catching on to me.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
Okay, all right, that's a that's a fair choice to make.
I think you pass the test.

Speaker 5 (46:47):
Okay, this one.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
You've got a spot you're heading into hunt and it's
a slam dunk. You feel really strongly about it. You
have trial camera intel that backs up your location, and
you're heading in with high hopes. But as you head in,
let's say it was kind of like a wet day
before maybe, so there's a like soft grown. As you're

(47:22):
heading in and you're nearing your location, you see fresh
boot tracks and you find out someone else has been
somewhere around here. Do you go through with your plan
or do those fresh boot tracks in your zone make
you pivot in any kind of way? What do you do?

Speaker 3 (47:38):
Yeah, well, it would depend if it was just fresh
boot tracked. You know, in the mind, I'm probably gonna
gamble and hope that maybe somebody's just passed them through.

Speaker 5 (47:49):
You know.

Speaker 3 (47:49):
Another thing where I come from, there's a lot of
human activity that's even non hunting related, there's a lot
of foresters who's biologists. I mean, you name it. So
there's a chance that it's not even a hunter. And
there's so much area anyways, that and I'm I feel
very confident in a lot of my best spots or
overlook spots that you know, not to brag, but I

(48:12):
don't think a lot of hunters thinking the same things
and the same setups as me. Anyways, Now, if Safer
snow on the ground and I see boot tracks, I
would literally follow those boot tracks aways. Heck, I might
even try to catch up with the hunter just to
see what they're doing in there, you know, are you
are you setting up somewhere or whatever. I would literally

(48:33):
do that. I would. I would rather, you know, lose
a little bit of hunting time and just figure out
what this this hunter is doing then you know, risk anything,
But it would it would depend on different scenarios. But
if I just see sign of you know, human activity,
I'm still gonna hunt that area. It's very common situation.

Speaker 2 (48:52):
Okay, what about a slight variation of that. What if
you're up in the tree waiting on your buck and
here comes Jill hunter walking by you, and maybe he
doesn't walk right into where you think the core core is,
but he walks kind of past you. He waves, then
he keeps on going and kind of is cruising along
the side of where you were hoping a good deer

(49:14):
might come from. Do you bail or do you stick
it out?

Speaker 3 (49:18):
Usually I'll move, but I might not move real far right.
I'm real careful about entering my spots with ground scent.
A lot of times I'm jay hooking or doing something real,
you know, real out of the ordinary, to make sure
that if I think deer you know, or working on
this particular scrape or whatever, you know, I try to

(49:38):
keep my human send off of where the deer are traveling.
So you know, if somebody's going through kind of the
hot route that I'm hunting they just went through, I'm
definitely gonna get down and adjust to it. But good
chance I'm not gonna leave the area either. I may,
you know, unless that person you know followed that trail
and came from that route from to and from one

(50:01):
hundred some yards this way hundred some yards that way.
You know, I might then leave the whole situation. But
chances are I should be able to find somewhere without
that fresh ground set and you know, I'm pretty quick
about you know, getting set up. I mean I can
get out of my train up in another you know,
fifteen minutes at the mouse or whatever. So uh, it's

(50:22):
really not a huge deal as far as losing time,
But it's going to be based on where exactly that
hunter came from and where they went, if they left
me any room they were adjust or not.

Speaker 2 (50:33):
Okay. So another thing that you've talked a lot about
in the past that I've that I've really found interesting
is your you know, really in depth trail camera analyzes
you've done, where you've you've looked at trends across you know,
your hundreds of cameras and seeing how different dates and
different weather systems and things have impacted the dear activities

(50:54):
sand camera. And one of the things I've heard you
mention a lot is just the impact of those cold fronts,
when those cold weather systems come through the trigger that
seems to pull for deer. So I'm curious about what
you would do when you have the opposite situation. For
a lot of us. This past year, we had a

(51:15):
hot rut that first, you know, depending where you are
in the country for a lot of people's the end
of October, first week of November. You know, I was
stuck with seven straight days of seventy degrees or more.
So let's say it's that you know, last couple of
days of October or first you know week of November.
And let's say this is your you know, let's say
you're not guiding and you have time to hunt during

(51:37):
that week and you're stuck with that weather forecast. Does
that change your hunting strategy in any kind of way?
If so, how If not?

Speaker 3 (51:47):
Why not? Yeah, it absolutely does it the whole rot.
Like you know, people, some people assume that maybe the
way I explained it is that these deer don't at all,
and that's definitely not the case. Even you know, seventy
or degree day or warmer, they're still rutting going on.

(52:08):
You know, you can still have success. It's just you know,
the chances are a little slimmer when a buck's moving
a lot less. There's a couple of different, different, you know,
scenarios that seem to work in warm weather. Here people
would be surprised. But you know this is even based
some off trail camera observations too. Is real hot days

(52:29):
like we're finding creek bottoms or really good you know,
cruising areas are creek bottoms are you know, usually prettyly
heavily loaded with like a lot of evergreen and hemlocks,
so it's generally cooler down there. Plus, got a fact
you're in that you know, when bucks are are rutting
hard and they got those winter coats on, you know,
they're thirsty. I would you know, we're definitely focusing more

(52:52):
around creek bottoms on those hot days for guiding myself.
I'd be keeping that in mind. Another thing, too, is
it still seems like there's activity close to betting, which
is pretty normal. Seems like a lot of bucks like
to you know, bed maybe just two three hundred yards
at the most, or more like maybe one hundred yards

(53:12):
downwind of dough is dough betting. I'd be focusing more
around those dough betting areas. You know, on those warmer days,
you just you can't expect it to be like that,
that hot all day action. You know, it's a sluggish
movement on those warm days. You gotta be a little
bit more patient. But you can still have success. I

(53:33):
mean we've I'm not going to say we have our
best success those days and certainly don't get as excited.
But you know, we got paying clients that come in
and they can't predict what the weather is going to
be a year in advance when they book their hunt.
So we've had to come up with ways to still
be successful. And like I said, you can still have success,

(53:53):
you know, you just got to either set up around
betting or like I said, those creek bottoms with a
good water source. That's and we've really found to be
really good in those hot days during the run.

Speaker 2 (54:04):
Yeah, So speaking of those kind of sluggish movement days
during the rut, like you kind of mentioned, even when
conditions are pretty good, it seems like you can certainly
have these like great periods of movement and then like
really slow days during the run, even though you would think, like, oh,
it's the rud it should be incredible. At least, my
experience has often been that there'll be these periods of

(54:25):
where it's dead, it's either hot, or it's not. So
I'm curious if you are in a situation where it's
you know, November seventh or eighth, one of those days
that a lot of people say is like the best
day of the whole hunting season for a lot of people.
And you've sat in a location for three days in
a row, and I've heard you talk about your three
day rule. So if that's something you still do, I

(54:45):
would be interested in you explaining that a little bit
for folks. But let's say you've done your three day rule.
You've sat for three days in the spot. That should
be amazing. You feel really confident, but it's been dead.
Do you you know, how do you piv it based
on that? Or do you for some reason stick it
out longer?

Speaker 3 (55:05):
Yeah? No, I would never you know, three days of
dead movement. You know, I'm looking for something else. I'm
probably also looking for a completely different type of setup.
You know, maybe I was in a creek bottom. Now
I'm gonna maybe set up closer to some bedding or
a food source, just based on there's probably a good

(55:27):
chance too that you know, something changed as well as
you know, within their environment. A lot of times too,
what I'll do is grid search for a hot dough too.
It may not even be you know, trailcam picks that
time of year, but if you can get on a
hot dough you know around that and that's a pretty

(55:47):
good period for those coming in to heat that's sixth, seventh,
and eighth, just you know, just trying to be in
that zone. That's That's another thing that happens that time
of year is you might see a little bit las
cruise and at least up my way around that time period.
And it's all centralized based on you know, where that
that do in that areas you know, coming into heat,

(56:09):
that's where all the bucks are going to be. Like
I said, but just at least do something different, you know, whatever,
you know it may be. You know, you said, even
if it was a prime you know, more of a
prime weather day and you know, things weren't things still
weren't working right. There's a good chance that you know,

(56:29):
you just don't have have it figured out. You know,
maybe uh, the deer were eating white oaks and they're
starting to become pretty thin. Now they're switching the red oaks,
or you know, just do something completely different. But definitely,
after three days of nothing, I totally recommend it's not
just you know, eventually maybe something's going to come through,
but you know, you've put a lot of humans, do

(56:51):
a lot of intrusion into that particular spot. It's time
to to readjust and come up with a new game plan.

Speaker 2 (56:59):
Now, if it had been just one day or two days, though,
would you do you do you still strictly follow that
three day rule?

Speaker 3 (57:05):
No, not always three days. You know sometimes too, you know,
I might hunt us plan to hunt a spot for
two days because say it's like a travel corridor, cruising area,
and I got two real good prime weather days. Like
I love to hunt travel corridors, maybe a pinch point
or you know, just a past a pack crew, a

(57:25):
past cruising route I've had good experience on. But those
routes only seem to be used on those prime days.
You know, doesn't always matter whether it's November first or
the fifteenth. But it just seems like our dearm based
on a lot of my research, Like you know, you
get what I call thirty thirty weather days when you
got at least high tempts in the thirties or better

(57:49):
or lower I should say, and low times thirty two
or lower. You know, those those travel corridors really really
light up. And you can even you know, you can
have a camera on a you know, on a travel
corridor that you know that has a scrape or maybe
even a signpost Roub and it's been pretty dead this year,
but most likely you haven't had those prime weather days

(58:11):
when these bucks are making those big johnts. I hunt
those spots based more on past experiences versus even fresh intel.
But sometimes, if you know, if I'm seeing that we
only got a couple good, you know, prime days of weather,
I'm only gonna hunt that spot twice because we got
that warm front coming up. These bucks are gonna get
bogged down, and I'm gonna hunt more warmer weather setups,

(58:33):
you know. So a lot of it's based on really
a lot of our hunting is based on weather, especially
temperature as well.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
That brings to mind another situation. I feel like a
lot of the weather conversation helps inform people like when
they make their strikes or how aggressive they get with
their strikes. Right, there's some folks that will play it
really conservatively until you get that good cold weather, then
you make a strike you know, deep into the kill zone,
and then when it's hotter days, they're going to play
it more conservatively. I'm curious though, one of the things

(59:04):
that can shift someone's strategy or perspective would be if
they knew they weren't the only ones hunting that buck.
I think this can be a situation where, you know,
folks share a private property to other guys, or if
they hunt in a place where there's a lot of
hunting pressure, or they hunting public land where it's fair
game for everyone. What happens if you've got, you know,
a target buck that you're really really interested in, it's

(59:26):
on public land, and you've got a plan and you're
after him, but then you bump into some other guys
at the trailhead and they show you pictures and like, yeah, man,
I'm after this deer. And you find out that there's
like a guy or two in the zone that's kind
of on the same deer. What do you do in
that situation? Does that change your strategy? Does that change
how aggressive you are or anything at all?

Speaker 3 (59:48):
I Mean, the good thing is, as I've ran into
these guys and a lot of times I may not
jump right out and tell them or I'm hunting, but
I might. What I'll say is, you know, I just
don't want to get your guy's way. I try to
play dumb. Although if it's a local guy not bragging,
but he probably knows. Steve shirt's hunting that deer too,
But I try to play a little dumb and be like,

(01:00:09):
you know, not real, you know, familiar with this area. Guys.
I just want to make sure that you know I'm
not hunting where you're at, and try to figure out
what they're doing and you know where they're going, and
as long as they're doing something different than me, I'm
going to hunt that deer definitely. I mean, I'll say,
you know, a lot of the deer I have on camera,

(01:00:32):
you know, they're not secrets. It's public land. A lot
of other people have these deer on camera too. But
I'm always trying to figure out, you know what, how
these other people are hunting these deer and you know,
and go from there. And that's why early on I
was big about, you know, finding those harder to access
areas a little bit more remote. It doesn't mean that

(01:00:52):
these deer secrets, but you know, a lot of these
people always or a lot of people say, you know, how, Steve,
how do you get some a daytime? That's because I'm
finding deer and I'm learning, dear, you know in these
areas that nobody's really going. I mean, these bucks, you
know in the middle of the night. They may go
several miles from their core area. And a lot of

(01:01:13):
these people are getting these bucks at midnight, one two
in the morning, and then they're going in the woods,
you know, five hundred yards thinking that bucks there and
they have no clue. They're two to three miles off. So,
you know, just trying to figure out what everyone else
is doing, you know, and staying away from them, because
if they have a pattern to what they're doing, the

(01:01:33):
mature deer has already got them figured out. He'll go
in that area at night and he's not going to
be bothered at all, but he's going to stay back,
you know, quite a way where nobody else has been going,
and that's going to be the place where I plan
to hunt.

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
Okay, another camera situation, and this one just kind of
popped in my mind. But it's a thing that you
hear about every once in a while. I've I've kind
of had this kind of thing happen where you've got
to buck that you're kind of closing in on and
you're getting daylight pictures of him, but every time you
go in to hunt, you don't see him, and then

(01:02:09):
the next day you're not in their hunting, and then
he daylights and the daylights the next day, and then
you check your camera four days later or you got
to sell cameras or whatever it is, and you say, oh, shoot,
he was daylighting, and then he go in and hunt
him again, and then you don't see him. But then
the next day, when you're not there, he's daylighting. So
you get a buck that's day lighting when you're not there,
but you can't seem to get on him when you're there.

(01:02:30):
Do you what do you do in that situation? Do
you think that it's you? Do you think it's just
luck or happenstance that he happens to just not be
shown up on the right days and you just need
to be there more. How do you approach that?

Speaker 3 (01:02:41):
I would I would go into that thinking that deer
was on to me. I wouldn't give up on the deer. I,
you know, maybe set up a couple hundred yards differently.
This is something too. I like the question because I've
had it happened to me several times. It's it starts
to make sense when every time you're not there, that

(01:03:02):
deer's showing up or pretty consistently, And I think that
happens a lot. You know, you think you might know
where that deer's betting, and he might also know where
your stand is, and he's just bedding down wind to
that every time. He may adjust every time too, just
to make sure he's down wind to that spot. You know,
it could easily happen, especially if you've went in there

(01:03:24):
pretty often and you know you're you're checking that camera
quite often. He's got a pretty good idea that Okay,
there's a hunter, there's there's someone coming in here fairly often,
and I need to pay attention to this. But the
good thing is that deer's sticking around. He hasn't disappeared,
and you just got to go in there and surprise
him once again. That's why you know I love mobile

(01:03:46):
hunting and not so much of a fixed stand person.
Is you want to keep these deer, especially in mature bucks.
You want to keep them guessing to what you're doing
as well. Like I said, I don't think you're going
to have to leave that entire area one hundred two
three hundred yards of an adjustment. I think that deer
would be surprised, and I if I'm continuing to get

(01:04:07):
pictures of that deer in fact that camera. If that
deer keeps coming to that camera, I can keep checking
it every few days too. But then I would bank
off of what I'm seeing that deer do if he
is coming from the same direction, or if there's like
I said before, if there's any bit of consistent knowledge
you're getting from a deer on your camera, keep using that,

(01:04:31):
keep basing your next hunt off of those pictures. So
I would use that camera as more of an inventory
or an intel camera, and I'd keep basing my setups
off of that and keep mixing up my setups too.
Even if I went in there another time and I
hunted that deer once or twice and didn't see him,
I would just keep within that area. But I probably

(01:04:52):
wouldn't keep hunting the same tree, just keep bouncing around.
Sooner or later, I think you're going to get in
front of him.

Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
What if I did this? What if I took all
of your trail cameras away and you had zero cameras
for this hunting season, how would you kill a buck
in that situation? Like, how would your plan change?

Speaker 3 (01:05:14):
Well? Can I say that I had cameras in the past,
or I've never had cameras.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
You know, I think I'd be more interested in if
you never had camera information, because I kind of want
to see, you know, for someone who I'm imagining there's
somebody listening right now who maybe only has a couple cameras.
They can't afford one hundred and fifty cameras, and so
they're thinking, Man, how does Steve get it done in
these places? You know, if he didn't have all that information.
So I'm kind of curious. Let's just go extreme here
and say you don't have any and maybe this is

(01:05:43):
a newer place, so you just don't have that historical
information from them. Yeah, what would you do then?

Speaker 3 (01:05:49):
Yeah, I mean it it wouldn't be I mean, I'd
be depressed, don't get me wrong. I'd hate to not
use cameras. But it would also be kind of exciting too,
just for the fact that I always know what's in
the area. So it would be like every time i'd
be going into a hunt, it'd be like Christmas morning,
but I'd use all the same things I'm still using now.

(01:06:11):
Just you know, i'd be still you know if it
was uh, you know, I guess it depends on what
time of year. It would be you know, just similar
to the answer I gave you before. If it's early October,
I'm looking for you know, sign on the end edge
of betting.

Speaker 5 (01:06:28):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:06:29):
If it was more in the rut, I probably focus
more where I'm seeing dose and still keeping you know,
out of out of the way other hunters trying to
find more overlooked areas. Uh. You know, still a lot
of boots on the ground scouting too. The only thing
that you know, those cameras are really doing for me

(01:06:51):
is really teaching me, you know, about individual bucks. But
you know, I still have decent woodsman skills. I still
do a lot of things similar to what a lot
of other people are doing that you know, aren't running
trail cameras. But a lot of it's just based on
time of the year. But you know, I definitely scowed
heavily and that's what I would do. A lot of

(01:07:13):
boots on the ground stuff, and you know, you can
have success without trail cameras for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:07:21):
All Right, we're the last phase of the gauntlet, which
is the rapid fire questions. Okay, I've got I think
five or six quick questions here. I just need like
a one word answer. No, explanation allowed, and then I'll
end it with one last doozy in which you can
explain yourself. Okay, okay, okay, all right, rapid fire begins.

Speaker 3 (01:07:43):
Now.

Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
Would you take a fifty yard shot at a white
tail with your bow?

Speaker 3 (01:07:47):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
Or no?

Speaker 3 (01:07:49):
No?

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
If you can only have one of these tools for
the rest of your hunts, for the rest of your life,
would it be a set of rattling antlers or a
grunt tube? Grunt tube expandable or fixed blade? Broadheads?

Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
Fixed blade?

Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
Should you stop a moving buck before shooting with a bow?

Speaker 3 (01:08:10):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
Does the moon matter to dear? Movement?

Speaker 3 (01:08:17):
Minimal?

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
Okay? If you could only hunt mornings or evenings this
coming season, which one would you take?

Speaker 3 (01:08:26):
Can I at least ask what time of year.

Speaker 2 (01:08:29):
It's for the whole season? The whole season?

Speaker 3 (01:08:32):
All right?

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
Mornings? Okay, all right. So here's the doozy. Let's say
that I rule the world and I have control over
your hunting privileges. I'm going to take away your right
to hunt for the rest of your life unless unless
you kill a five and a half year old buck
or older this coming season. The problem is, I'm only

(01:08:56):
gonna let you hunt one day and from one location.
So you have one day and one stand site in
order to kill a five and a half year old
buck this year. Tell me the date on the calendar
you would pick, and then describe to me in as
much detail as possible your best possible hypothetical stand site
for this situation for that day.

Speaker 3 (01:09:19):
Well, does it have to be a specific date or
could it be a time frame with a weather event,
or does it just have to be a certain date.

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
I would say pick a date, but I'll let you
be a little loose with the facts. And if you
want to say, but I want this weather, I'll give
that to you because I don't want to be too mean, because.

Speaker 3 (01:09:40):
I do have I like to hunt individual deer, like
from October fifteenth to close to Halloween before they really
you know, break out and range. In fact, I have
several deers several spots picked from that October fifteenth, you know,
towards end of October period, like you know, but a

(01:10:01):
lot of that's gonna be based on weather fronts. But
the first first weather front we get around mid October,
I'll explain a couple of these spots. Uh, they're they're
pretty close to buck betting. They're they're all on active scrapes,
like I mentioned before on the fringes of buck betting. Uh,

(01:10:23):
it's that's a special time of year when I mean
I call it like scrape season. I'd say that that
mid to late October period. There's probably no other time
throughout three hundred and sixty five days a year that
bucks are working scrapes as much. And you can you
can kind of pattern bucks on these scrapes. I'm not

(01:10:43):
saying they're hitting the same scrape every day. That's when
I love to use my three day strategy. The most
you'll have. You know, you'll have scrapes that a buck's
coming to maybe two to three times a week in
the daylight, and those are the spots that I'm hunting,
you know, maybe three afternoons in a row based on
what I'm seeing on those cameras. If I'm seeing more

(01:11:06):
consistency in the morning or evening, I'll base whether I'm
gonna hunt morning or evening on that year, and I'll
give it three sits in a row. Then I move
on to a different gear. But most of my hunting,
I will say, is based on weather fronts, you know,
cold fronts especially. I have you know those I don't

(01:11:28):
want to say magical spots, but some really good spots
that I have a lot of confidence in. But instead
of you know, getting excited and jumping the gun too quick,
I wait till the time's right, and you know, in
that I've had most of my success. A lot of
people are surprised, But from like October eighteenth to Halloween

(01:11:48):
is when I've killed most of my bucks. It and
it's mainly using that strategy, incorporating prime weather, you know,
on these scrapes and in these on the into these
betting areas, like that's just been a deadly tactic for me.
The biggest thing is some years you don't get those
weather fronts, and you know, you that's what's tough being

(01:12:12):
you know a fair weather hunter is you know, it's
you just you never know. Every year is going to
be different. You know, it's funny the year before last
and you know, twenty twenty one, our best stretch of
activity was November first to like the sixth, twenty twenty two.
That was the absolute worst time. So you just from

(01:12:33):
one year to the next, you don't know. And that
was mainly based on weathers. So but that's what I
would be doing. I. In fact, I was just scouting
the other day what I've been going in like this
time of year July August, and because I leave cameras
at these spots year round just for the most part,

(01:12:54):
so these bucks are used to the camera as well.
And I'll go in about this time of year and
just clear some brush and just make sure everything's clear
because about this time years when everything in the woods
is reached like maximum growth, and you'd be surprised. I
went to cameras the other day and they're just completely
covered up with the brush and stuff. But I've already

(01:13:15):
got all my spots pretty much set up for that
time period and now it's just a waiting game and
pray the weather gods are going to work with me
this October. Man.

Speaker 2 (01:13:26):
Well, if that was the case and I had your
hunting privileges on the line, I would be crossing all
my fingers and toes for you. And with that, Steve,
you made it through the gauntlet. Thanks for doing that.
I enjoyed it. Before I let you go, though, can
you give folks a quick rundown of where they can
follow along with anything you've got going on how they

(01:13:48):
can contact you? About the Guide Service anything else like that.

Speaker 3 (01:13:51):
Yeah, you can find me on social media Facebook or Instagram.
You might be able to see on my shirt here
it's Shirks Guide Service strk Apostrops. I don't have a
website anymore. I just it was, you know, it's one
of those things. I never thought it was going to
be what it is, and I was getting so many
phone calls that I just had to find a way

(01:14:14):
to cut back. However, this year, I do still have
some spots. I don't know when you're gonna air this,
but we do have a few spots, a few openings
this coming season. So if someone's interested in doing, you know,
a mountain buck hunt here in northwestern Pa on public land,
can definitely get a hold of me on Facebook or Instagram.

(01:14:35):
And honestly, thanks so much for having me. I was
honored to get to chat with you. I've been following
you for years, so this was one of my I
would say, one a little more challenging podcasts, but probably
the most fun and I'd be willing to do it
any other time to say the least awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:14:53):
Man, Well, hey, right back at you. We'll definitely have
to stay in touch and I'll be I'll be keeping
tabs this fall. Hopefully you'll be putting another one or
two in the truck, and I'm sure you will. So
good luck and thank you, Steve.

Speaker 3 (01:15:06):
Thank you, good luck to you as well.

Speaker 2 (01:15:15):
All right, and that is a wrap. Thank you again
for showing up for this, listening to this, enjoying this
with me. I'm rare to go. I'm actually heading out
right now to hang some trail cameras and do some
scouting on a new piece. So exciting times all around.
I will leave you with one more heads up. After
I finished my conversation with Steve, he did mention that
he has a couple more openings available with Shirk's Guide

(01:15:39):
Service this coming fall in that mid November time period.
That's the only slot that's open right now. Get a
hold of him through Facebook, like he mentioned, and you
might be able to get one of the last couple
spots available with Shirk's Guide Service. As he heard today,
Steve is a wealth of information. He's gonna teach you
some great stuff. He's going to put you in a
place where you'll have some great opportunities, and I imagine

(01:16:01):
it can be a whole lot of fun too. So
give Steve a shout, and in the meantime, best to
luck out there. If you were doing some summer scouting,
some summer preps and habitat work, whatever it is, get
it done now because the season is just around the
corner and I cannot wait. So until then, thank you

(01:16:22):
and stay wired to hunt.