November 26, 2024 • 45 mins
Joanna Sapir is a business strategist for holistic practitioners, particularly those that integrate multiple modalities.
Joanna's special ability is in helping practitioners set up repeatable systems and processes in their businesses to serve their clients more powerfully, enroll committed long-term clients, and create steady income and cash flow.
She has been a teacher and trainer for more than twenty years, from the classroom to the gym floor and now to wellness practices across the world.
Born and raised in the San Francisco Bay Area, she is a mother of two, a USA Masters National Champion in Olympic-style Weightlifting, and the host of the Business Revolution for Practitioners podcast. Learn more at http://joannasapir.com
THREE POWERFUL SYSTEMS THAT WILL COMPLETELY TRANSFORM YOUR PRACTICE
Get Joanna's free guide for this episode here: https://joannasapir.com/YogaTeachers
Key Takeaways
* Focus on creating tailored programs for ideal clients ("bullseye clients") rather than generic offerings
* Implement a programmatic approach with front-end intensive programs and back-end maintenance programs
* Use a profitable pricing calculator to determine appropriate rates based on business expenses and income goals
* Transition from trading time for money to creating sustainable, transformative programs for clients
Topics
Identifying Ideal Clients
* Focus on 3-5 favorite past clients who got great results and were enjoyable to work with
* Look for patterns in their pain points, goals, and desires rather than demographic niches
* Design programs specifically tailored to these ideal "bullseye clients"
Creating Sustainable Programs
* Front-end program: 3-month intensive addressing core issues (often one-on-one)
* Back-end program: Ongoing maintenance/lifestyle support (can be group format)
* Structure provides consistent income and deeper client transformation
* Allows practitioners to fully commit and provide high-value service
Pricing and Financial Planning
* Use a "profitable pricing calculator" to determine base hourly rate
* Factor in all business expenses, desired salary, and profit goals
* For group programs, determine minimum viable number of participants
* Separate personal and business finances for clarity
Business Mindset for Practitioners
* View business as separate entity from yourself as practitioner
* Embrace leadership role as CEO of your practice
* Overcome fears about business being "unspiritual" or inauthentic
* Focus on how business skills allow you to help more people at a deeper level
Next Steps
* Download free resources at joannasapir.com/yogateachers (3 workflows for lead generation, enrollment, and client communication)
* Consider booking a discovery call for the Profitable Practitioner Academy program
* Evaluate current offerings and identify opportunities to create more tailored, transformative programs
* Implement proper financial tracking and goal-setting for your business
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:08):
Welcome back to the Yoga TeacherTraining Podcast, and today I'm
with Joanna Superior. Welcome.
Thanks, Jeremy. I'm excited to be here.
We're going to talk about business.
We're going to get down to Business Today and talk about
creating offers for yoga teachers and just where, let's
just start with like where do people come to you and you start
(00:31):
working with a client? What are some of the things
they're bringing to you that they're wanting to work with
that like struggles they're having, challenges they're
having, questions they have. Yeah, that's a great question.
So I work with practitioners whohave been in business for who
are just starting or have been in business for one year, 2
(00:51):
year, five years, 10 years. I've had people come to me after
25 years in business and interestingly a lot of the
problems they come with are quite similar.
So one is the sort of roller coaster, unpredictable income,
right, where there might be a good month and then there might
be a bad month and it's totally unpredictable how that's going
(01:12):
to go. Because of that, they may be
struggling to support themselvesor not see how to make their
businesses viable if they're in earlier stage.
One of the biggest complaints that I hear is clients that
cancel or that drop off and you know, that show up who, who, who
(01:34):
start and then don't finish. Basically, you know, don't,
don't get, don't get hooked in and, and and therefore don't get
results. And I have to say that mindset
wise for a practitioner or for like a yoga teacher, for
example, you know, if you have clients that come and aren't
actually like experiencing the transformation that, you know,
is possible, we subconsciously think that that's, that we're
(01:59):
not that good or something like what are we doing wrong?
Right. And so my answer to that is,
it's actually your business structure and systems.
So, and then and then perhaps another complaint that's
actually really common is clients who are sort of
dictating the terms of the service.
Clients who are asking to be this might not be so applicable
(02:22):
to anyone listening that's teaching just yoga classes.
But if you're doing anything one-on-one with folks, clients
who are kind of telling you to do or what they want, I want it
like this. I want it like this.
And where the practitioner sort of feels like I'm not in control
here, like I'm, I'm bending overbackwards to do what they're
(02:44):
saying, like something's wrong about this doesn't feel right.
So those are all really, really common things in in different
stages of business that I hear. Yeah.
So let's let's go into the financial roller coaster.
I think that's a very common 1. And I for early on in my
teaching, I would maybe start teaching a few classes a week
(03:07):
and then, oh, now I can teach you a workshop and that springs
in a little more income and I'm getting deeper with students and
share something more that's likeI've worked through and that's
like very fulfilling in the fulfillment side and purpose
side, but also now making more income.
But it was very irregular. And like especially for yoga
(03:29):
teachers who are just teaching like in person classes, like you
show up and you teach and then you make money and you leave.
If you get sick now, you just lost like a week.
Yeah, or if you go on vacation, there's no money, right?
So there's a lot of factors intothis and like maybe you get paid
per student and like the studentattendance just drops and no one
(03:50):
knows why. Or it goes up and you think
everything is great and then it goes down, you know?
So this is definitely something I experienced and I think most
teachers experience this. So what have you found to
navigate this? Well, this will be a long
answer. It's got a short answer with a
long, long background to it. So let me just say how I came
(04:12):
into doing this work that I do. I was, I was, I was, had never
been a business owner, had no experience in business
whatsoever. I had been a high school history
teacher for a decade and a series of life changes, a series
of life changes happening happened, including a traumatic
(04:33):
birth of my son that just sort of jolted my whole life.
And, and I found, I found fitness, it was not specifically
yoga, but was strength and conditioning essentially.
And weightlifting just completely helped me heal and
change my life. And I ended up somewhat
accidentally I say, opening a strength and conditioning gym
(04:55):
with no experience in business whatsoever.
And because I wanted to provide this service, I had moved to a
new place. It didn't nothing like this
existed. It was how it had helped me so
much, right? And so I wanted to provide this.
So I get into business and I experienced this first as a
practitioner of people who of, of the ups and downs, right?
(05:17):
And the unpredictability of kindof offering classes.
And it just depends on people showing up for the class and
showing up to actually do this stuff and pay right.
I figured out in my business howto address this and I'll talk
about that in a minute. But what I want to note is that
I also after I, I Long story short, I got that gym to be
(05:42):
totally sustainable, very profitable and ended up selling
it. At the same time, I was client
of yoga teachers of body workers, of naturopaths of like
wonderful practitioners who werereally, really good at what they
did, but had these financial struggles, right.
(06:04):
So, you know, sometimes they were jam packed and then
sometimes they were like desperate for filling sessions
and filling classes. And I experienced on the client
side what really, really was missing, which I had already
figured out from the business side of things, which is a truly
programmatic approach to get someone the results that they
(06:26):
want. And this is an amazing thing
because it it does exactly what I just said.
It gives the client, it gives the clients the results they're
really after. So you as a practitioner, when
you're talking about that fulfillment side of things,
you're getting to help people truly experience transformation,
(06:46):
right? Really long term real change.
But on the business side, it's atotal win as well.
It's just a win all around. So already it's a win for them.
It's a win for you as a practitioner.
That's fulfilling. But for the business side of
things, when you create a program, and we can talk much
more in depth about this, but when you create a program or a
(07:07):
container, it's going to be a long term process that helps
somebody, right, to get those results.
None of us would say that one class is going to make, you
know, the kind of change that people want.
And so that long term approach, when you combine it with the
right systems and structures, gives you long term income.
It's a commitment that you are making to the client and the
(07:29):
client is making to themselves and their goals.
And for example, if we're just talking about the actual
logistics here, payment goes outfor if it's a six month program,
payment is coming in for six months regardless of it's not a
trading time for dollars thing. It's a paying for the program,
right? They're paying for the program.
So it completely gives this steady predictable income in
(07:53):
your business as well. So it's just an all around win
really for everyone. Yeah, that was the big leap.
Like if people want to be able to be location independent and,
you know, travel and if you can get if you get sick or if you
travel or if you have a wedding you want to go to or, you know,
these these things, their life comes up and you can't be
(08:16):
physically in person. That's what I found for myself
too, is like you really do need to develop some sort of income
that does not require you to be physically present for like an
hour and then you get paid for that hour and you leave.
It's this like a course or classor some sort of like membership
or something that is ongoing like you're saying is such a
(08:39):
that's where you really make theleap to.
Now you have freedom of your time and location and like
you're saying, like you've, you're helping at a higher
level. So it's more fulfilling and the
people are getting bigger results.
But this is a common thing. When I worked with my first
business coach because there wasn't much business training in
my teacher trainings and my yogapath.
(09:02):
But I I sought out a business coach and the first thing she
asked me was like, OK, well, whodo you teach?
My answer was whoever comes to class and I teach seniors, I
teach teenagers, I teach adults,men, women, whatever.
I I just love yoga. I teach gentle hatha vinyasa.
I love it all. I want to teach it all.
(09:23):
Like, I just love sharing it. And she was kind of stuck, like
she was a relatively new business coach.
She kind of didn't know how to answer or respond to that.
I was like, well, I think you need a niche.
I think you need to focus on onething.
I mean, that's great that you can do all that.
And I think for yoga teachers, like we want to learn so many
things and have so many skills. But then like you're saying,
(09:44):
it's like, so I teach this general hatha class and I have
the senior and the teenager and the athletic person and the
injured person and the pregnant woman and they're all in the
same class and they all get a great experience.
But that's so much different than like if I were to have like
one of my friends who does a prenatal series, like everything
you need to know to get ready for the baby.
(10:07):
And so like how your body changes and your hormones change
and, and it's like that is so much more valuable to that
person, both in their, you know,life experience and their own
learning and growth and health, but also to in monetary value
too. It's like they're saving them
money from the doctors, from allthese other things, the
(10:28):
medications they might have, they might be able to avoid, you
know, so the value is like extremely high for everybody and
you're getting more fulfillment as a teacher.
So I I think that is like the next step, but where people I
think I've seen get stuck where I got stuck with, well, I don't
want to be just the the yen yogateacher.
I don't want to just be the yogafor seniors teacher and do so
(10:50):
much. So how do you navigate this
sticking point where people are like, oh, this sounds
interesting, Joanna, but I want I don't want to be like
pigeonholed. They're like, oh, I'm just the
chakra teacher now or whatever. Well, it's interesting because
you took that into, you know, specialization, niching and so
on, which is it very important? It's it's important for both
(11:11):
program design and it's important for your marketing and
for attracting people. So I'll talk about that in a
second. But one thing I just want to
make sure that everyone listening understands is I think
what were the models you just said you talked about like
membership or online course or whatever.
I just want to say a programmatic approach for any of
you listening that teach in person absolutely can still be
(11:33):
the case. It can be one-on-one, to be
really, really clear, It can be one-on-one.
It can be group. So when I talk about programs, I
don't just mean something like an online membership at all.
And so in fact, the well, I workabout 50% of my clients are in
person and 50% are online, but the vast majority of them are
(11:55):
one-on-one practitioners, even like the yoga people I work
with, which are often yoga therapists or people who are
really doing like therapeutic type yoga, but I also have
studio owners and so on. So this can be done even as as a
in a studio setting. So just to note that it can be
one-on-one, it can be group, it can be online, it can be in
person in all all these different ways.
(12:16):
And yes, you're right, it startswith looking at who do I love
working with. This is how I talk to
practitioners about this is I, Iactually am very critical of the
marketers approach to niche, which is really about, which is
really about where can I make the most money or who's in my
audience and how can I monetize this audience.
(12:38):
Most I come at it from a very different perspective of you
look at your actual past. So whenever you started working
with this business coach, it's like how many you know, how many
people had you worked with, how many years had it been or
whatever. And really looking through the
past and a very simple exercise that anyone any of you listening
can do right now is to just think about who have been like
(13:00):
your three to five favorite clients you ever worked with.
I mean, just, you know, that should be fairly easy to kind of
sift through your own brain and go, who have I loved working
with? And almost all the time if, if
you're prompted with that question, those people were a
joy for you in many ways. There was all kinds of resonance
between you and they, they, they, you know, you, you vibed
(13:22):
right with them, but also they were people who were consistent
and who got great results right,who experienced transformation
and like that was fulfilling foryou.
So that's what the two kind of criteria I'd say is people you
loved working with and that saw the best results from your
services. And interestingly, if you line
those people up, like if you do this right now and write those
(13:44):
people down their names, you don't even have to have their
last names. Like it can just be from your
memory, right? And then if you just kind of
know for each one, why did I love working with this person,
right? Or why have I loved working with
this person or why do I love it might be present tense, you
know, they might still be with you.
You will see patterns in there that are not necessarily what
(14:08):
marketer types would call a niche.
Usually they're calling a niche like you mentioned, like
prenatal yoga, right? A niche usually is like these
very demographic kind of things and age and location and income
level or you know, but you will see patterns that are beyond
that. And sometimes it really is just
what they share are their pains and their problems and their
(14:29):
goals and their desires. And they may not, it may be a
wide demographic, it may be a vast age difference, but they
all have some particular issues in common.
And so you have to look for those patterns yourself or with
the help of somebody like me or,you know, but yeah, you do need
to know who your favorite peopleare.
(14:49):
And so I think your question forme was the the resistance that
practitioners will often feel about.
Like I can help so many people and this comes down to your
goals. I think it's like many of us are
multi passionate. And you know what, There's a lot
of different people I could helptoo.
And really it's about like, whatare my goals and where do I feel
(15:11):
the most passion And my goals? First of all, there's financial
goals I have in my business, butthen there's also bigger kind of
mission based, values based goals, which is like the purpose
of my company explicitly is to build a more just world.
And so I want to work specifically with people who are
helping individuals transform because I think I think that's
(15:35):
going to have a ripple effect and, and, and fulfill that
larger mission, right? So the, the, that's the values
based piece of like, what's the best way to actually reach this
mission that I want? But then financially, you know
what I say to people who have all these ideas, I want to do
retreats and I want to do workshops and I want to do this
and I want to do this, cool, that's great.
(15:56):
But if financially you need yourbusiness to actually make a
living for you, we're starting with one thing and getting that
to be profitable and sustainable.
So that's at least paying the bills.
And then you get to start addingthings and having fun.
But to try to do all the things at once, you kind of will not
get anywhere, you know, or serveall the people at once.
(16:19):
You know what I mean? Like you can build extra
programs for different people intime, but start with one who do
you love working with and sees the best results from your
services. Start there.
And many people find themselves very fulfilled at that point and
sort of don't need to then be addressing all these other
things, but depends on, you know, your goals.
(16:39):
That's so good. And in that group, yeah, I love
this approach. Like I worked with someone else
who worked with a different business coach and she wound up
with this customer avatar who somebody who is nothing like her
students. And it's like she described it.
She's like, oh, I got my customer avatar.
(16:59):
I'm so excited. I worked with this coach.
We spend this whole like 2 hour of meditation and then we got
clarity and now I know who I'm going to help online.
She get a very successful in person following like like
hundreds of people on an e-mail list have just followed her over
the years who love her and like loved her emails, loved her
classes, but now she's trying todo more online stuff and she got
(17:21):
this avatar and she described her and I was like, that doesn't
sound like any of your students that doesn't she's like.
It's real. It's really common.
Like I said, I I consider it like a marketer's approach where
they're where you're kind of making it up and it's just
definitely not a practitioner centered perspective, you know.
(17:43):
So yeah, come in it from your actual experience.
Yeah, and she struggled with that and kind of went off path
for a little bit. And then I, but she brought this
up to me and then I just asked her like, well, just kind of
like what you're saying, Like who's the student that you love
working with, who's been consistent, who loves what you
do? And she's like right away, she's
(18:05):
got a name. Maybe it was Nancy or something.
Right. Exactly.
Just make a course for Nancy. That's all you have.
Yes, exactly. It really can be that simple, so
I'm glad you brought that up. It can be that simple, yes.
Right. But but yours is a little deeper
and I love this. And I think I have encourage, if
everyone listening, if you haven't done this kind of
exercise, do the exercise. I think Joanna's giving us a lot
(18:26):
of value here. So thank you for sharing that
exercise. But then the next question is
I'm like kind of in the mindset of the person listening of, OK,
so I've got this avatar, you could call it our ideal client
or niche or whatever. I I'll say I call it your
bullseye client. That's what I call it, the
bullseye of your target market like the the one.
(18:46):
Yes. So you got the bullseye person,
client, student. And then you think, what?
So you're saying like, OK, well then take that one client, that
one idea and make that sustainable.
And this is where I've heard people say, well, sure, like
$1,000,000, but it's like like this goal is still arbitrary.
(19:10):
So how do you navigate that of like making it into something
tangible or realistic or becauseit's also, even if it's just
like to pay my bills and say it's like $4000 a month or
something, it will cover all your bills.
And, and I just, and you, you try that for a month and you,
you make like $200.00 and it's like, oh, this is never going to
(19:31):
work. So you know, this kind of this
place that people can get stuck here.
How do you navigate that? Yeah, I love this big.
Another big question. So let's just start with, you
know, you mentioned you asked your you asked, you know, who's
your favorite client and Nancy. So first of all, the pro just
designing the program. Just want to note that like, you
(19:53):
know, you can think of Nancy when she first came to you and
think of where Nancy wanted to go.
And now you get to design the dream program for Nancy and
you've already worked with her for a while.
So like this is all kind of retroactive in your mind.
Like if I could have given Nancyfrom day one exactly what she
needed. You designed that, right?
I think Jeremy, you were asking about pricing.
(20:13):
I think is what you you were what this is getting into.
And so. I, I will say how I lead
practitioners through facing their programs.
So first of all, I'll. Say, hold on, I'll just say that
yes, pricing is like the next step of but then the first thing
(20:34):
is just the the actual setting and goal before you get to
pricing. Well, I think they they go
together so much, but it's just this.
I've heard so much resistance from people about setting goals.
Or is that just feels the arbitrary?
Financial goals you're talking about specifically?
Yeah, exactly. Then it comes down to yes, you
need to make this much for this many clients at this rate will
(20:57):
get you that goal. Well, I'll here, here.
Let's see. I'll try to address it.
And then you dig in if there's more to dig in.
Yeah, Yeah. I went to pricing because I have
a tool that I call the profitable pricing calculator.
And what this requires you to dois actually input the actual
numbers that it required that your business is needs to
(21:19):
sustain itself. So it is first of all, this
might be a new, it probably is new for many people listening.
It's even, I even get practitioners who have been in
business 10 years and this is a very big new step forward for
them, which is your business is not you.
Your business is its own entity.And one of the ways people
(21:41):
really muddy that up is by having the same bank account for
both. Just want to encourage everyone
listening, even if you're just asole proprietor where you're not
required to have separate bank accounts.
If you have an LLC or an S Corp,you, you do have to have a
separate bank account. But even if you're a sole prop,
split up your money. Your business is your business
(22:03):
and you are an individual. Your business is an entity, you
are a human. And so that separation is super
important energetically as well,which is why we want to split up
the money because your business requires revenue to sustain
itself. And you are the leader of your
(22:24):
business. Your business is not you.
You are not your business. You are the person working in
it. If you're all alone and you got
nobody else with you, you're theleader and the practitioner, the
CEO and the practitioner. And most of us, you know, get
into business and we're just wearing the practitioner hat.
At some point we hit a place where we go, wait, there's no
(22:45):
leader of this is there is no CEO.
Either it's me or there's nothing.
And you know, you, that's, that's the breaking point.
It's like you got to decide to step into leadership of your
business, but nobody's leading it otherwise.
So anyway, it's its own thing. But you as the practitioner and
the CEO need to be paid, right? Because you as the human need to
(23:07):
make a living. But it's not you.
Again, you are not the business.So your business expenses are
everything you pay for. You know, like you're here
online and you got your Zoom account, so you got all the
software service pieces, right? What are if you have materials
that you provide, if you have equipment that you have, if you
have rent and you have an you know, in person location,
etcetera, all of that. What are the expenses of the
(23:30):
business? That needs to include your
taxes, any business licenses, all of that and anything you're
paying for, what are the monthlycosts and in there needs to be
your salary. So back to this thing about
goals, It's not really, it's nota made-up number.
It's like what is required to sustain this business?
What is the the two places wherepeople can kind of go, huh?
(23:53):
I don't know, right? They might think of $1,000,000,
but one of them is how much do Iwant to take home in salary
every month? And the second one is what are
my profit goals? And so profit is the above and
beyond, which I just want to note a lot of us don't think
that way. A lot of people are just making
whatever they can make and whatever's leftover at the end
of the month is what they pay themselves.
(24:14):
And there is no profit, right? And so we want to really build
in profit goals, which profit you can just, there's so many
different things you can use that for.
But in the very least you want to have money saved up for, you
know, a standard is 3 months of business expenses saved up.
Profit can go towards that. It can go towards charity and
(24:36):
nonprofit donations. It can go towards scholarships
for clients. It can go towards your vacation
if you want to, right? It can go towards all kinds of
things, but we want that so profit and then your salary.
And so, you know, I have occasionally had people who say
I want to make, you know, $25,000 a month take home salary
(24:58):
as a, you know, as a, as a solo practitioner.
And that very, very occasionallyhappens.
And I have to actually get really realistic with them about
what that would look like. That's not at all impossible,
but that's not happening like even in the next year, if you're
you're starting it, you know, right now you're taking home
5000 or something or whatever itis.
(25:23):
But but as far as your own personal expenses, like
hopefully we all have a grasp onnow, what do we need as a human?
What is rent or mortgage? What is our grocery costs?
What are these right? And what is the extra I want to
have every month? What's the lifestyle?
What's the number required to live the lifestyle I want?
And so we put all of that into the pricing calculator and that
(25:46):
helps us to determine the pricing of our services and our
programs. And it really kind of depends
who we're talking to. Again, if you're a a solo
practitioner doing one-on-one work that looks very different
than if you're if you're runninggroup programs or or something
bigger. Does that get to what you were
asking? Yeah, totally, very good.
(26:07):
Yeah. And so it's, it's not just this
arbitrary goal. It's like there's, there's hard
expenses to have a business, there's legal costs, there's
websites maybe if you do advertising all this stuff.
So if you want to have nice lighting, nice microphone, nice
camera, those are all business expenses and they've got to be
(26:28):
paid either out of your pocket or the business income.
And yeah. And then one thing it's kind of
a common way to approach it is like if you have a current job
that you don't like and you'd like to get out of, so you just,
OK, what are you making there? And if you're making like $3000
(26:49):
a month there or whatever and you want to get out of that.
So then that, that could become part of the goal too, to have a
take on pay now that replaces the job you don't like.
And and then you start to get creative with like programs and
offers in ways you could do thatpricing and everything to to
reach that goal, right? Yes, yes, totally.
Yeah. And and then we can get to the
(27:12):
pricing of the actual offers like you were about to go before
I interrupted you. Sorry about that.
Yeah. Are you going to say something?
Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Just like just what is the, what
is the thought process? Isn't that because that's again
the place right here, a lot of sticking points with teachers of
like, it just seems arbitrary. Again, like, what am I going to
charge for this workshop or thiscourse or this class of retreat?
(27:36):
Yeah. So my profitable pricing
calculator, what it does is giveyou, I call it a secret number
because I'm going to say I call it the base hourly rate.
It's a secret number because so many people I work with are
coming charging by the session, by the class, which is
essentially an hourly, you know,hourly trading time for dollars
(27:57):
rate. So I don't want them to mix that
up with with what's your base hourly rate.
But what the base hourly rate says is how much you need to get
paid, how much of the business, excuse me, needs to take in per
client facing hour. So it's specifically per client
facing hour. But I just want to know that the
way the calculator works is thatcovers the whole business, but
(28:20):
we are looking at it in terms ofof facing hours.
What it means is you end up withthis number and so when you
design your program keeping in mind like again the the majority
of people I work with are doing one-on-one services, plenty do
group, but probably 75% are doing one-on-one services.
So that it becomes very easy because we are just taking the
(28:43):
base, we're looking at the program, how many client facing
hours does it have in it and we're multiplying that by the
base hourly rate and we get how much they need to charge for
this one-on-one program. When we move into groups, it
becomes a little bit more complex but not that bad.
We look at what's the minimum number of people that you need
(29:06):
that that would make this group not financially make this group
for you as a practitioner run. So it's interesting because this
really just depends on you as a teacher and what you're trying
to get by providing a group and what's important to you there.
I know people who to them, the whole purpose of a group is to
is a lot of people. And I know others who are like,
(29:27):
no, I don't want any more than six, like maximum 6, you know,
like, so it's, this is really about you as a practitioner and
what your program is designed tobe and be.
And so we look at what's the minimum number?
So even that person who is like maximum 6, what's their minimum,
what's the minimum number of people that this group can fly
the way you want it to, right. Run the way you want it to as a,
(29:51):
as a, as a form of service. And so let's say they say it's
4. So then we're taking that base
hourly rate and we're dividing it by 4.
We're basically taking the, the,the one-on-one price, dividing
it by 4. And we're going, this is the
minimum we need to charge. We play with those numbers
because sometimes it can end up in something odd like 2867 and
$0.50, right? And so then we can play with
(30:13):
that and say 2800 or something. But so, so that's what we do
with that. Nice.
And when you're working on one like these, when you say program
2A lot of these are and maybe it's like an 8 week series of 1
to one sessions, right? Yeah, so in the case since since
(30:36):
really we're talking about yoga.So I work with a number of
people who do movement work thatvaries.
I mean, many of them incorporateyoga and are totally trained
yoga teachers, but do in their, when they come to me, they often
say, but I'm so much more than ayoga teacher.
I'm not what people think of as yoga.
So it's really not how they necessarily market themselves,
(30:57):
right? But they're absolutely
incorporating that. So let's just kind of bundle
this all into movement practitioners.
So the way many movement practitioners that work with me,
what they will end up with building and designing and
sustaining is like a front end program and then a back end
program. So the front end program
(31:20):
addresses the sort of core painsand problems, goals and desires
that somebody is coming with. So a lot of times, again, this
is therapeutic. So somebody's coming with like
this is not like their clients are not like lifestyle, like I
just want to do yoga and I love yoga, right?
It's like they're they've got some kind of health concerns
(31:40):
that they want to address or health goals that they want to
reach. And so the front end program is
a more intensive piece. So here's one model just to kind
of give people ideas. You mentioned 8 weeks.
The front end program might be more like something like 3
months, 12 weeks kind of thing. And it is, you know, a more
intensive sort of deep dive one-on-one where you're really
(32:03):
addressing the foundations of your work.
For example, like really kind oftaking somebody through a very
specific process that is giving them foundational principles,
skills, etc, that are going to help them reach these goals.
And so that by the end of that front end program, they really
have made some significant progress.
(32:24):
And then the idea of the back end program is kind of like
maintenance. And now it's more like lifestyle
maintenance, sustainability, kind of peace.
And so the back end program might actually be, it might be
that the front end program is one-on-one and the back end
program may be group. And it's only for people who
have been through that front endprogram, right?
So it's like these people already have these foundations,
(32:47):
They already understand all thislanguage, these tools, these
skills. And now we're meeting in more of
like a, a group class kind of setting.
I can't even remember what the question you asked me was, but
there there's one example of of something that might might come
out of our work together. Right.
Yeah, just like the some of the models, because I think a lot of
(33:10):
teachers are kind of intimidatedby going online, but a lot more
comfortable with working one-on-one in person.
Or maybe say, creating like somesort of big online course or
something might seem more intimidating, but maybe a series
of classes, especially for a specific issue and especially if
it's something that the teacher or the person providing the
(33:32):
service has worked through themselves.
Exactly. Yeah, adjustment issues or back
pain or something, right? Yeah, I mean, first of all, just
to note that that is far more attractive to something general
to to somebody who has those issues.
It's like you have something just for them, right.
But from the practitioner side of things, especially because
(33:53):
plenty of people listening are just getting started, right, Or
just getting their teacher training, I believe.
I mean, as a former gym owner, as an athlete of lifelong
athlete and somebody who's been through lots of, you know,
training with other people, I personally really believe that
practitioners should work with people one-on-one before they
move to a group setting. And yet that's the because, you
(34:15):
know, yoga classes are the standard model.
It doesn't often happen. And same with, you know, group
fitness and so on. I really think that we need to
have that experience with individuals, different
individuals with different issues and helping them through
that to have the skills to be able to address a group.
I mean, the fact is, is that thecues you give in a group,
(34:36):
they're going to be different for different people.
And you need to be able to spot that within a group and, and
understand that and see that. So I really believe we, you're
talking about the confidence building piece.
I, I, I think it's really important, yeah.
Definitely, yeah. And then when they're working
with one-on-one with these people and like having some sort
(34:57):
of guidance I think is so important, like what you're
offering, I highly recommend people check out Joanna
sapir.com SAPIR and like see what she's offering there.
And you do a free discovery callwith people, right?
Absolutely, yeah. So I do a free discovery call
and that's to that's to look at my my front end program, which
(35:17):
is called the Profitable Practitioner Academy.
So that's how I work with peoplewho are just beginning with me.
Yeah. Yeah, on my path, having some
sort of guidance and direction and like a model or or path work
or path to follow of like not just randomly guessing of like
(35:37):
maybe I should do a three-week or a 12 week or maybe it should
be a year. I don't know.
And you know, it's just so, so many things can be addressed so
quickly when you have a mentor and business coach who's like,
Nope, don't do that. Do this just like just saved you
like a year of struggle. This is that one sentence.
(36:00):
So, you know, I highly recommendthat.
And it sounds like you have a really solid model too, of like,
basically, as long as somebody'scoming to you who loves yoga and
has some experience and is readyto help at a higher level beyond
just the public drop in classes,you can work with them, right?
(36:20):
That's exactly right, yeah. And that last piece is
important, Yeah. Somebody really, really wants to
help at a higher level and is ready to, you know, take their
business seriously. Yeah, yeah.
And you know, most teacher trainings don't have much to
talk about business. And still I think there's a sort
of little bit of a stigma like, oh, business is too sales.
(36:42):
They don't want to be pushy. They don't want to bug my
students. This is spiritual.
It's not about money. And those things are all true.
And it's it really is an energetic exchange.
And like you said earlier, it's like, yeah, you can do so much
with drop in classes and they'regreat.
But there's it's also very limited and like to have bigger
(37:04):
transformations and to really help people with specific
challenges requires a deeper level of commitment and
investment and will show up differently when they've
invested more financially, whichis a huge thing.
Yeah. And it's often the people who
like the highest invested courses and the biggest
(37:25):
payments. Those are the ones who are the
usually the highest invested energetically too.
And then you also lights a fire under the teacher to be more
invested in like, OK, I want to give them everything I got.
So there's a lot of value in that too.
And I think what you're doing inthe model, it really elicits
this and draws out this like a teacher to bring out their gifts
(37:46):
at a deeper level and and help at a higher level.
I think that's so important. You're really reading this
right, yes, not as you say energy exchange that where we as
practitioners get to be so fullycommitted and know the client is
so fully. It's really an even exchange of
like we are in this together andthere we go.
(38:08):
And that's not the case, as you mentioned in drop in models, you
know, and that's not the client's fault and that's not
your fault. It's just that system and how
how that is, it's just how that's built.
And so if you want something different, you know, change the
structure, yeah. Yeah, and it's it's a great way
(38:30):
to reach a lot of people and drop in classes.
And I always tell newer teacherslike teach as much as possible,
as many people as possible. You gain so much experience,
classes one-on-one, whatever youcan do.
And you just learn so much aboutthe body, about different
bodies, different needs. I definitely recommend that.
And then at a certain point, maybe a year, maybe two years
(38:54):
for me, it was really more like 5 years, but I was, I was
learning in the 20 tens before the Internet was so easy to
learn so much online now, But I,I think a lot of experience
helped. And then you start to find like
what you really love, you've learned some things and then you
have so much to offer. But even if you're at the early,
(39:15):
the inner stage, I, I think thisis something I wish I learned
earlier on as well. And yeah, it's, it's just so
cool what you're doing. And I think it's super valuable.
And I think the business doesn'thave to be so like scary or
heavy or burdensome. And the numbers, like with your
(39:38):
calculator too, like the numbersare actually pretty simple.
It's like pretty it's not like you have to have a calculus
degree to do business, but you just need to stay on top of it
and be consistent, right? Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think, I think anybodywho's scared of business, I just
want to say like I got into business with no experience in
(40:00):
business. And, and honestly, I actually
ran into health troubles right away because it was so stressful
and I didn't know what I was doing.
But as soon as I made the decision, like, oh, I see, I
have to learn how to do business.
And I did do that and discoveredthat it's not that scary and
that it can be. You can run your business very,
(40:20):
very authentically based on yourvalues.
You absolutely can do this. It's not a you have to turn into
some greedy capitalist or something, right?
Like you really can do this in ways and set up structures that
feel totally aligned with you and your values.
And once I figured that out, everything after that is like,
ah, now this is actually like sofulfilling and enjoyable and fun
(40:45):
and is making me a living and ismore profitable, right?
And so it, it's totally, totallypossible too.
It's a decision I think you maketo step into leadership like
that. Yeah, and it's a common thing to
hear a lot from students like, oh, I want to go deeper in my
yoga practice. I don't really know what to do
(41:06):
next. If you hear this from your
students and they're like, they're wanting more and it's
not there like that is basicallythey're saying like, create
something, offer me something. If they they're wanting, they're
ready. And then like you as a
practitioner and like anyone who's taken a teacher training,
you know, it's like, there's so much, there's the philosophy,
(41:28):
there's anatomy, there's all these other things.
So you can't cover all that in one class or even a series of
classes. So then it's like, how do you
share all this passion, all thislove and all these things you've
learned? And then the students are also
looking for, this is also, I think helpful too, if you just
kind of listen and, and hear what the students are asking for
(41:50):
too. And, and the business is about
like distilling that and honing in on it.
And I mean, I can recall like every time I've had like another
growth up in my own path. Like the first time I taught at
any yoga class, spent like 2 weeks preparing for that.
And it was like a 15 minute sequence.
(42:10):
And I was just like, you know, Itook everything in me to figure
out how to do this 15 minute sequence.
And then that got easy. And then it became a full class
and then it became a workshop. And, but the first time I did a
workshop, it was like took everything in me to plan it out
and figure it out and every stepof the way, a lot of it I was
just kind of figuring out because no one taught me
(42:31):
business either. But it was once I started to
work with business teachers thataccelerated this a lot.
And what I really found is like,it's as much as it's about like
having, you know, LLC and, and income and these
responsibilities and all these things that you're managing.
But it's, it's so much of it is about bringing out your gifts at
(42:54):
a higher level and showing up ata deeper level to your work and
your purpose and your calling and like helping people at a
higher level. So I think again, it's like the
actual business details like admin taxes, this kind of stuff
that can seem like kind of scaryand not fun and burdensome, but
(43:17):
that's a small percentage of it and a small place to pay to like
get to share your gifts at a higher level and and help more
people. Totally.
You've, you've summed it up really well.
Yes. Those little pain in the ass
things are just totally this little sliver of really the
bigger picture, which is really helping people in
transformation. Yeah.
(43:37):
Yeah, well, again, Joanna, so sapir.com.
So I'll put that link in the show notes.
SAPIR, Joanna, Sapir. And how can people stay in touch
with you? Are you on the socials?
I'm not super active on the socials, but if you want to hear
from me, So if you get on my e-mail list, I send great info
(43:59):
out. And the easiest way to do that
is to get what I have for you all today, which is 3 workflow.
This is a a free gift for, for your people. 3 workflows for
business. Yeah.
So one of them is like lead generation and the workflows for
that as well as the workflows for how to enroll your clients
(44:21):
in your programs with in this case, the, the, the workflow I
have to give is what I call the red velvet rope policy.
So this is, this is part of the sales process for enrolling
folks. And so you all can find that at
joannasapir.com/yoga Teachers and hopefully you can put that
link kind of somewhere, Jeremy. I will, yes.
(44:42):
Very cool. Joanna sapir.com/yoga Teachers
with an S. Yes, great.
And yeah, lead generation, if you're going to be online, is
essential. It's like people finding you cuz
yeah. And then the other ones, the red
velvet rope. Yep, the red velvet rope policy
(45:05):
and I'm I'm trying to trying to think right now.
What's the third one we put in there?
Their. Language.
Oh yeah, speak their language. Oh, you got it.
I see it on your site speak. Their language, yeah, It's about
how to. It's about how to call in your
people. That's about how what?
What language to use to call in the right people for you?
Nice. Very cool.
(45:26):
Awesome. Well, thank you for those free
resources and thank you for thistime.
It's so good to talk with you and I'd love to work with you.
Welcome back to the Yoga TeacherTraining Podcast, and today I'm
with Joanna Superior. Welcome.
Thanks, Jeremy. I'm excited to be here.
We're going to talk about business.
We're going to get down to Business Today and talk about
creating offers for yoga teachers and just where, let's
just start with like where do people come to you and you start
(00:31):
working with a client? What are some of the things
they're bringing to you that they're wanting to work with
that like struggles they're having, challenges they're
having, questions they have. Yeah, that's a great question.
So I work with practitioners whohave been in business for who
are just starting or have been in business for one year, 2
(00:51):
year, five years, 10 years. I've had people come to me after
25 years in business and interestingly a lot of the
problems they come with are quite similar.
So one is the sort of roller coaster, unpredictable income,
right, where there might be a good month and then there might
be a bad month and it's totally unpredictable how that's going
(01:12):
to go. Because of that, they may be
struggling to support themselvesor not see how to make their
businesses viable if they're in earlier stage.
One of the biggest complaints that I hear is clients that
cancel or that drop off and you know, that show up who, who, who
(01:34):
start and then don't finish. Basically, you know, don't,
don't get, don't get hooked in and, and and therefore don't get
results. And I have to say that mindset
wise for a practitioner or for like a yoga teacher, for
example, you know, if you have clients that come and aren't
actually like experiencing the transformation that, you know,
is possible, we subconsciously think that that's, that we're
(01:59):
not that good or something like what are we doing wrong?
Right. And so my answer to that is,
it's actually your business structure and systems.
So, and then and then perhaps another complaint that's
actually really common is clients who are sort of
dictating the terms of the service.
Clients who are asking to be this might not be so applicable
(02:22):
to anyone listening that's teaching just yoga classes.
But if you're doing anything one-on-one with folks, clients
who are kind of telling you to do or what they want, I want it
like this. I want it like this.
And where the practitioner sort of feels like I'm not in control
here, like I'm, I'm bending overbackwards to do what they're
(02:44):
saying, like something's wrong about this doesn't feel right.
So those are all really, really common things in in different
stages of business that I hear. Yeah.
So let's let's go into the financial roller coaster.
I think that's a very common 1. And I for early on in my
teaching, I would maybe start teaching a few classes a week
(03:07):
and then, oh, now I can teach you a workshop and that springs
in a little more income and I'm getting deeper with students and
share something more that's likeI've worked through and that's
like very fulfilling in the fulfillment side and purpose
side, but also now making more income.
But it was very irregular. And like especially for yoga
(03:29):
teachers who are just teaching like in person classes, like you
show up and you teach and then you make money and you leave.
If you get sick now, you just lost like a week.
Yeah, or if you go on vacation, there's no money, right?
So there's a lot of factors intothis and like maybe you get paid
per student and like the studentattendance just drops and no one
(03:50):
knows why. Or it goes up and you think
everything is great and then it goes down, you know?
So this is definitely something I experienced and I think most
teachers experience this. So what have you found to
navigate this? Well, this will be a long
answer. It's got a short answer with a
long, long background to it. So let me just say how I came
(04:12):
into doing this work that I do. I was, I was, I was, had never
been a business owner, had no experience in business
whatsoever. I had been a high school history
teacher for a decade and a series of life changes, a series
of life changes happening happened, including a traumatic
(04:33):
birth of my son that just sort of jolted my whole life.
And, and I found, I found fitness, it was not specifically
yoga, but was strength and conditioning essentially.
And weightlifting just completely helped me heal and
change my life. And I ended up somewhat
accidentally I say, opening a strength and conditioning gym
(04:55):
with no experience in business whatsoever.
And because I wanted to provide this service, I had moved to a
new place. It didn't nothing like this
existed. It was how it had helped me so
much, right? And so I wanted to provide this.
So I get into business and I experienced this first as a
practitioner of people who of, of the ups and downs, right?
(05:17):
And the unpredictability of kindof offering classes.
And it just depends on people showing up for the class and
showing up to actually do this stuff and pay right.
I figured out in my business howto address this and I'll talk
about that in a minute. But what I want to note is that
I also after I, I Long story short, I got that gym to be
(05:42):
totally sustainable, very profitable and ended up selling
it. At the same time, I was client
of yoga teachers of body workers, of naturopaths of like
wonderful practitioners who werereally, really good at what they
did, but had these financial struggles, right.
(06:04):
So, you know, sometimes they were jam packed and then
sometimes they were like desperate for filling sessions
and filling classes. And I experienced on the client
side what really, really was missing, which I had already
figured out from the business side of things, which is a truly
programmatic approach to get someone the results that they
(06:26):
want. And this is an amazing thing
because it it does exactly what I just said.
It gives the client, it gives the clients the results they're
really after. So you as a practitioner, when
you're talking about that fulfillment side of things,
you're getting to help people truly experience transformation,
(06:46):
right? Really long term real change.
But on the business side, it's atotal win as well.
It's just a win all around. So already it's a win for them.
It's a win for you as a practitioner.
That's fulfilling. But for the business side of
things, when you create a program, and we can talk much
more in depth about this, but when you create a program or a
(07:07):
container, it's going to be a long term process that helps
somebody, right, to get those results.
None of us would say that one class is going to make, you
know, the kind of change that people want.
And so that long term approach, when you combine it with the
right systems and structures, gives you long term income.
It's a commitment that you are making to the client and the
(07:29):
client is making to themselves and their goals.
And for example, if we're just talking about the actual
logistics here, payment goes outfor if it's a six month program,
payment is coming in for six months regardless of it's not a
trading time for dollars thing. It's a paying for the program,
right? They're paying for the program.
So it completely gives this steady predictable income in
(07:53):
your business as well. So it's just an all around win
really for everyone. Yeah, that was the big leap.
Like if people want to be able to be location independent and,
you know, travel and if you can get if you get sick or if you
travel or if you have a wedding you want to go to or, you know,
these these things, their life comes up and you can't be
(08:16):
physically in person. That's what I found for myself
too, is like you really do need to develop some sort of income
that does not require you to be physically present for like an
hour and then you get paid for that hour and you leave.
It's this like a course or classor some sort of like membership
or something that is ongoing like you're saying is such a
(08:39):
that's where you really make theleap to.
Now you have freedom of your time and location and like
you're saying, like you've, you're helping at a higher
level. So it's more fulfilling and the
people are getting bigger results.
But this is a common thing. When I worked with my first
business coach because there wasn't much business training in
my teacher trainings and my yogapath.
(09:02):
But I I sought out a business coach and the first thing she
asked me was like, OK, well, whodo you teach?
My answer was whoever comes to class and I teach seniors, I
teach teenagers, I teach adults,men, women, whatever.
I I just love yoga. I teach gentle hatha vinyasa.
I love it all. I want to teach it all.
(09:23):
Like, I just love sharing it. And she was kind of stuck, like
she was a relatively new business coach.
She kind of didn't know how to answer or respond to that.
I was like, well, I think you need a niche.
I think you need to focus on onething.
I mean, that's great that you can do all that.
And I think for yoga teachers, like we want to learn so many
things and have so many skills. But then like you're saying,
(09:44):
it's like, so I teach this general hatha class and I have
the senior and the teenager and the athletic person and the
injured person and the pregnant woman and they're all in the
same class and they all get a great experience.
But that's so much different than like if I were to have like
one of my friends who does a prenatal series, like everything
you need to know to get ready for the baby.
(10:07):
And so like how your body changes and your hormones change
and, and it's like that is so much more valuable to that
person, both in their, you know,life experience and their own
learning and growth and health, but also to in monetary value
too. It's like they're saving them
money from the doctors, from allthese other things, the
(10:28):
medications they might have, they might be able to avoid, you
know, so the value is like extremely high for everybody and
you're getting more fulfillment as a teacher.
So I I think that is like the next step, but where people I
think I've seen get stuck where I got stuck with, well, I don't
want to be just the the yen yogateacher.
I don't want to just be the yogafor seniors teacher and do so
(10:50):
much. So how do you navigate this
sticking point where people are like, oh, this sounds
interesting, Joanna, but I want I don't want to be like
pigeonholed. They're like, oh, I'm just the
chakra teacher now or whatever. Well, it's interesting because
you took that into, you know, specialization, niching and so
on, which is it very important? It's it's important for both
(11:11):
program design and it's important for your marketing and
for attracting people. So I'll talk about that in a
second. But one thing I just want to
make sure that everyone listening understands is I think
what were the models you just said you talked about like
membership or online course or whatever.
I just want to say a programmatic approach for any of
you listening that teach in person absolutely can still be
(11:33):
the case. It can be one-on-one, to be
really, really clear, It can be one-on-one.
It can be group. So when I talk about programs, I
don't just mean something like an online membership at all.
And so in fact, the well, I workabout 50% of my clients are in
person and 50% are online, but the vast majority of them are
(11:55):
one-on-one practitioners, even like the yoga people I work
with, which are often yoga therapists or people who are
really doing like therapeutic type yoga, but I also have
studio owners and so on. So this can be done even as as a
in a studio setting. So just to note that it can be
one-on-one, it can be group, it can be online, it can be in
person in all all these different ways.
(12:16):
And yes, you're right, it startswith looking at who do I love
working with. This is how I talk to
practitioners about this is I, Iactually am very critical of the
marketers approach to niche, which is really about, which is
really about where can I make the most money or who's in my
audience and how can I monetize this audience.
(12:38):
Most I come at it from a very different perspective of you
look at your actual past. So whenever you started working
with this business coach, it's like how many you know, how many
people had you worked with, how many years had it been or
whatever. And really looking through the
past and a very simple exercise that anyone any of you listening
can do right now is to just think about who have been like
(13:00):
your three to five favorite clients you ever worked with.
I mean, just, you know, that should be fairly easy to kind of
sift through your own brain and go, who have I loved working
with? And almost all the time if, if
you're prompted with that question, those people were a
joy for you in many ways. There was all kinds of resonance
between you and they, they, they, you know, you, you vibed
(13:22):
right with them, but also they were people who were consistent
and who got great results right,who experienced transformation
and like that was fulfilling foryou.
So that's what the two kind of criteria I'd say is people you
loved working with and that saw the best results from your
services. And interestingly, if you line
those people up, like if you do this right now and write those
(13:44):
people down their names, you don't even have to have their
last names. Like it can just be from your
memory, right? And then if you just kind of
know for each one, why did I love working with this person,
right? Or why have I loved working with
this person or why do I love it might be present tense, you
know, they might still be with you.
You will see patterns in there that are not necessarily what
(14:08):
marketer types would call a niche.
Usually they're calling a niche like you mentioned, like
prenatal yoga, right? A niche usually is like these
very demographic kind of things and age and location and income
level or you know, but you will see patterns that are beyond
that. And sometimes it really is just
what they share are their pains and their problems and their
(14:29):
goals and their desires. And they may not, it may be a
wide demographic, it may be a vast age difference, but they
all have some particular issues in common.
And so you have to look for those patterns yourself or with
the help of somebody like me or,you know, but yeah, you do need
to know who your favorite peopleare.
(14:49):
And so I think your question forme was the the resistance that
practitioners will often feel about.
Like I can help so many people and this comes down to your
goals. I think it's like many of us are
multi passionate. And you know what, There's a lot
of different people I could helptoo.
And really it's about like, whatare my goals and where do I feel
(15:11):
the most passion And my goals? First of all, there's financial
goals I have in my business, butthen there's also bigger kind of
mission based, values based goals, which is like the purpose
of my company explicitly is to build a more just world.
And so I want to work specifically with people who are
helping individuals transform because I think I think that's
(15:35):
going to have a ripple effect and, and, and fulfill that
larger mission, right? So the, the, that's the values
based piece of like, what's the best way to actually reach this
mission that I want? But then financially, you know
what I say to people who have all these ideas, I want to do
retreats and I want to do workshops and I want to do this
and I want to do this, cool, that's great.
(15:56):
But if financially you need yourbusiness to actually make a
living for you, we're starting with one thing and getting that
to be profitable and sustainable.
So that's at least paying the bills.
And then you get to start addingthings and having fun.
But to try to do all the things at once, you kind of will not
get anywhere, you know, or serveall the people at once.
(16:19):
You know what I mean? Like you can build extra
programs for different people intime, but start with one who do
you love working with and sees the best results from your
services. Start there.
And many people find themselves very fulfilled at that point and
sort of don't need to then be addressing all these other
things, but depends on, you know, your goals.
(16:39):
That's so good. And in that group, yeah, I love
this approach. Like I worked with someone else
who worked with a different business coach and she wound up
with this customer avatar who somebody who is nothing like her
students. And it's like she described it.
She's like, oh, I got my customer avatar.
(16:59):
I'm so excited. I worked with this coach.
We spend this whole like 2 hour of meditation and then we got
clarity and now I know who I'm going to help online.
She get a very successful in person following like like
hundreds of people on an e-mail list have just followed her over
the years who love her and like loved her emails, loved her
classes, but now she's trying todo more online stuff and she got
(17:21):
this avatar and she described her and I was like, that doesn't
sound like any of your students that doesn't she's like.
It's real. It's really common.
Like I said, I I consider it like a marketer's approach where
they're where you're kind of making it up and it's just
definitely not a practitioner centered perspective, you know.
(17:43):
So yeah, come in it from your actual experience.
Yeah, and she struggled with that and kind of went off path
for a little bit. And then I, but she brought this
up to me and then I just asked her like, well, just kind of
like what you're saying, Like who's the student that you love
working with, who's been consistent, who loves what you
do? And she's like right away, she's
(18:05):
got a name. Maybe it was Nancy or something.
Right. Exactly.
Just make a course for Nancy. That's all you have.
Yes, exactly. It really can be that simple, so
I'm glad you brought that up. It can be that simple, yes.
Right. But but yours is a little deeper
and I love this. And I think I have encourage, if
everyone listening, if you haven't done this kind of
exercise, do the exercise. I think Joanna's giving us a lot
(18:26):
of value here. So thank you for sharing that
exercise. But then the next question is
I'm like kind of in the mindset of the person listening of, OK,
so I've got this avatar, you could call it our ideal client
or niche or whatever. I I'll say I call it your
bullseye client. That's what I call it, the
bullseye of your target market like the the one.
(18:46):
Yes. So you got the bullseye person,
client, student. And then you think, what?
So you're saying like, OK, well then take that one client, that
one idea and make that sustainable.
And this is where I've heard people say, well, sure, like
$1,000,000, but it's like like this goal is still arbitrary.
(19:10):
So how do you navigate that of like making it into something
tangible or realistic or becauseit's also, even if it's just
like to pay my bills and say it's like $4000 a month or
something, it will cover all your bills.
And, and I just, and you, you try that for a month and you,
you make like $200.00 and it's like, oh, this is never going to
(19:31):
work. So you know, this kind of this
place that people can get stuck here.
How do you navigate that? Yeah, I love this big.
Another big question. So let's just start with, you
know, you mentioned you asked your you asked, you know, who's
your favorite client and Nancy. So first of all, the pro just
designing the program. Just want to note that like, you
(19:53):
know, you can think of Nancy when she first came to you and
think of where Nancy wanted to go.
And now you get to design the dream program for Nancy and
you've already worked with her for a while.
So like this is all kind of retroactive in your mind.
Like if I could have given Nancyfrom day one exactly what she
needed. You designed that, right?
I think Jeremy, you were asking about pricing.
(20:13):
I think is what you you were what this is getting into.
And so. I, I will say how I lead
practitioners through facing their programs.
So first of all, I'll. Say, hold on, I'll just say that
yes, pricing is like the next step of but then the first thing
(20:34):
is just the the actual setting and goal before you get to
pricing. Well, I think they they go
together so much, but it's just this.
I've heard so much resistance from people about setting goals.
Or is that just feels the arbitrary?
Financial goals you're talking about specifically?
Yeah, exactly. Then it comes down to yes, you
need to make this much for this many clients at this rate will
(20:57):
get you that goal. Well, I'll here, here.
Let's see. I'll try to address it.
And then you dig in if there's more to dig in.
Yeah, Yeah. I went to pricing because I have
a tool that I call the profitable pricing calculator.
And what this requires you to dois actually input the actual
numbers that it required that your business is needs to
(21:19):
sustain itself. So it is first of all, this
might be a new, it probably is new for many people listening.
It's even, I even get practitioners who have been in
business 10 years and this is a very big new step forward for
them, which is your business is not you.
Your business is its own entity.And one of the ways people
(21:41):
really muddy that up is by having the same bank account for
both. Just want to encourage everyone
listening, even if you're just asole proprietor where you're not
required to have separate bank accounts.
If you have an LLC or an S Corp,you, you do have to have a
separate bank account. But even if you're a sole prop,
split up your money. Your business is your business
(22:03):
and you are an individual. Your business is an entity, you
are a human. And so that separation is super
important energetically as well,which is why we want to split up
the money because your business requires revenue to sustain
itself. And you are the leader of your
(22:24):
business. Your business is not you.
You are not your business. You are the person working in
it. If you're all alone and you got
nobody else with you, you're theleader and the practitioner, the
CEO and the practitioner. And most of us, you know, get
into business and we're just wearing the practitioner hat.
At some point we hit a place where we go, wait, there's no
(22:45):
leader of this is there is no CEO.
Either it's me or there's nothing.
And you know, you, that's, that's the breaking point.
It's like you got to decide to step into leadership of your
business, but nobody's leading it otherwise.
So anyway, it's its own thing. But you as the practitioner and
the CEO need to be paid, right? Because you as the human need to
(23:07):
make a living. But it's not you.
Again, you are not the business.So your business expenses are
everything you pay for. You know, like you're here
online and you got your Zoom account, so you got all the
software service pieces, right? What are if you have materials
that you provide, if you have equipment that you have, if you
have rent and you have an you know, in person location,
etcetera, all of that. What are the expenses of the
(23:30):
business? That needs to include your
taxes, any business licenses, all of that and anything you're
paying for, what are the monthlycosts and in there needs to be
your salary. So back to this thing about
goals, It's not really, it's nota made-up number.
It's like what is required to sustain this business?
What is the the two places wherepeople can kind of go, huh?
(23:53):
I don't know, right? They might think of $1,000,000,
but one of them is how much do Iwant to take home in salary
every month? And the second one is what are
my profit goals? And so profit is the above and
beyond, which I just want to note a lot of us don't think
that way. A lot of people are just making
whatever they can make and whatever's leftover at the end
of the month is what they pay themselves.
(24:14):
And there is no profit, right? And so we want to really build
in profit goals, which profit you can just, there's so many
different things you can use that for.
But in the very least you want to have money saved up for, you
know, a standard is 3 months of business expenses saved up.
Profit can go towards that. It can go towards charity and
(24:36):
nonprofit donations. It can go towards scholarships
for clients. It can go towards your vacation
if you want to, right? It can go towards all kinds of
things, but we want that so profit and then your salary.
And so, you know, I have occasionally had people who say
I want to make, you know, $25,000 a month take home salary
(24:58):
as a, you know, as a, as a solo practitioner.
And that very, very occasionallyhappens.
And I have to actually get really realistic with them about
what that would look like. That's not at all impossible,
but that's not happening like even in the next year, if you're
you're starting it, you know, right now you're taking home
5000 or something or whatever itis.
(25:23):
But but as far as your own personal expenses, like
hopefully we all have a grasp onnow, what do we need as a human?
What is rent or mortgage? What is our grocery costs?
What are these right? And what is the extra I want to
have every month? What's the lifestyle?
What's the number required to live the lifestyle I want?
And so we put all of that into the pricing calculator and that
(25:46):
helps us to determine the pricing of our services and our
programs. And it really kind of depends
who we're talking to. Again, if you're a a solo
practitioner doing one-on-one work that looks very different
than if you're if you're runninggroup programs or or something
bigger. Does that get to what you were
asking? Yeah, totally, very good.
(26:07):
Yeah. And so it's, it's not just this
arbitrary goal. It's like there's, there's hard
expenses to have a business, there's legal costs, there's
websites maybe if you do advertising all this stuff.
So if you want to have nice lighting, nice microphone, nice
camera, those are all business expenses and they've got to be
(26:28):
paid either out of your pocket or the business income.
And yeah. And then one thing it's kind of
a common way to approach it is like if you have a current job
that you don't like and you'd like to get out of, so you just,
OK, what are you making there? And if you're making like $3000
(26:49):
a month there or whatever and you want to get out of that.
So then that, that could become part of the goal too, to have a
take on pay now that replaces the job you don't like.
And and then you start to get creative with like programs and
offers in ways you could do thatpricing and everything to to
reach that goal, right? Yes, yes, totally.
Yeah. And and then we can get to the
(27:12):
pricing of the actual offers like you were about to go before
I interrupted you. Sorry about that.
Yeah. Are you going to say something?
Yeah, yeah, go ahead. Just like just what is the, what
is the thought process? Isn't that because that's again
the place right here, a lot of sticking points with teachers of
like, it just seems arbitrary. Again, like, what am I going to
charge for this workshop or thiscourse or this class of retreat?
(27:36):
Yeah. So my profitable pricing
calculator, what it does is giveyou, I call it a secret number
because I'm going to say I call it the base hourly rate.
It's a secret number because so many people I work with are
coming charging by the session, by the class, which is
essentially an hourly, you know,hourly trading time for dollars
(27:57):
rate. So I don't want them to mix that
up with with what's your base hourly rate.
But what the base hourly rate says is how much you need to get
paid, how much of the business, excuse me, needs to take in per
client facing hour. So it's specifically per client
facing hour. But I just want to know that the
way the calculator works is thatcovers the whole business, but
(28:20):
we are looking at it in terms ofof facing hours.
What it means is you end up withthis number and so when you
design your program keeping in mind like again the the majority
of people I work with are doing one-on-one services, plenty do
group, but probably 75% are doing one-on-one services.
So that it becomes very easy because we are just taking the
(28:43):
base, we're looking at the program, how many client facing
hours does it have in it and we're multiplying that by the
base hourly rate and we get how much they need to charge for
this one-on-one program. When we move into groups, it
becomes a little bit more complex but not that bad.
We look at what's the minimum number of people that you need
(29:06):
that that would make this group not financially make this group
for you as a practitioner run. So it's interesting because this
really just depends on you as a teacher and what you're trying
to get by providing a group and what's important to you there.
I know people who to them, the whole purpose of a group is to
is a lot of people. And I know others who are like,
(29:27):
no, I don't want any more than six, like maximum 6, you know,
like, so it's, this is really about you as a practitioner and
what your program is designed tobe and be.
And so we look at what's the minimum number?
So even that person who is like maximum 6, what's their minimum,
what's the minimum number of people that this group can fly
the way you want it to, right. Run the way you want it to as a,
(29:51):
as a, as a form of service. And so let's say they say it's
4. So then we're taking that base
hourly rate and we're dividing it by 4.
We're basically taking the, the,the one-on-one price, dividing
it by 4. And we're going, this is the
minimum we need to charge. We play with those numbers
because sometimes it can end up in something odd like 2867 and
$0.50, right? And so then we can play with
(30:13):
that and say 2800 or something. But so, so that's what we do
with that. Nice.
And when you're working on one like these, when you say program
2A lot of these are and maybe it's like an 8 week series of 1
to one sessions, right? Yeah, so in the case since since
(30:36):
really we're talking about yoga.So I work with a number of
people who do movement work thatvaries.
I mean, many of them incorporateyoga and are totally trained
yoga teachers, but do in their, when they come to me, they often
say, but I'm so much more than ayoga teacher.
I'm not what people think of as yoga.
So it's really not how they necessarily market themselves,
(30:57):
right? But they're absolutely
incorporating that. So let's just kind of bundle
this all into movement practitioners.
So the way many movement practitioners that work with me,
what they will end up with building and designing and
sustaining is like a front end program and then a back end
program. So the front end program
(31:20):
addresses the sort of core painsand problems, goals and desires
that somebody is coming with. So a lot of times, again, this
is therapeutic. So somebody's coming with like
this is not like their clients are not like lifestyle, like I
just want to do yoga and I love yoga, right?
It's like they're they've got some kind of health concerns
(31:40):
that they want to address or health goals that they want to
reach. And so the front end program is
a more intensive piece. So here's one model just to kind
of give people ideas. You mentioned 8 weeks.
The front end program might be more like something like 3
months, 12 weeks kind of thing. And it is, you know, a more
intensive sort of deep dive one-on-one where you're really
(32:03):
addressing the foundations of your work.
For example, like really kind oftaking somebody through a very
specific process that is giving them foundational principles,
skills, etc, that are going to help them reach these goals.
And so that by the end of that front end program, they really
have made some significant progress.
(32:24):
And then the idea of the back end program is kind of like
maintenance. And now it's more like lifestyle
maintenance, sustainability, kind of peace.
And so the back end program might actually be, it might be
that the front end program is one-on-one and the back end
program may be group. And it's only for people who
have been through that front endprogram, right?
So it's like these people already have these foundations,
(32:47):
They already understand all thislanguage, these tools, these
skills. And now we're meeting in more of
like a, a group class kind of setting.
I can't even remember what the question you asked me was, but
there there's one example of of something that might might come
out of our work together. Right.
Yeah, just like the some of the models, because I think a lot of
(33:10):
teachers are kind of intimidatedby going online, but a lot more
comfortable with working one-on-one in person.
Or maybe say, creating like somesort of big online course or
something might seem more intimidating, but maybe a series
of classes, especially for a specific issue and especially if
it's something that the teacher or the person providing the
(33:32):
service has worked through themselves.
Exactly. Yeah, adjustment issues or back
pain or something, right? Yeah, I mean, first of all, just
to note that that is far more attractive to something general
to to somebody who has those issues.
It's like you have something just for them, right.
But from the practitioner side of things, especially because
(33:53):
plenty of people listening are just getting started, right, Or
just getting their teacher training, I believe.
I mean, as a former gym owner, as an athlete of lifelong
athlete and somebody who's been through lots of, you know,
training with other people, I personally really believe that
practitioners should work with people one-on-one before they
move to a group setting. And yet that's the because, you
(34:15):
know, yoga classes are the standard model.
It doesn't often happen. And same with, you know, group
fitness and so on. I really think that we need to
have that experience with individuals, different
individuals with different issues and helping them through
that to have the skills to be able to address a group.
I mean, the fact is, is that thecues you give in a group,
(34:36):
they're going to be different for different people.
And you need to be able to spot that within a group and, and
understand that and see that. So I really believe we, you're
talking about the confidence building piece.
I, I, I think it's really important, yeah.
Definitely, yeah. And then when they're working
with one-on-one with these people and like having some sort
(34:57):
of guidance I think is so important, like what you're
offering, I highly recommend people check out Joanna
sapir.com SAPIR and like see what she's offering there.
And you do a free discovery callwith people, right?
Absolutely, yeah. So I do a free discovery call
and that's to that's to look at my my front end program, which
(35:17):
is called the Profitable Practitioner Academy.
So that's how I work with peoplewho are just beginning with me.
Yeah. Yeah, on my path, having some
sort of guidance and direction and like a model or or path work
or path to follow of like not just randomly guessing of like
(35:37):
maybe I should do a three-week or a 12 week or maybe it should
be a year. I don't know.
And you know, it's just so, so many things can be addressed so
quickly when you have a mentor and business coach who's like,
Nope, don't do that. Do this just like just saved you
like a year of struggle. This is that one sentence.
(36:00):
So, you know, I highly recommendthat.
And it sounds like you have a really solid model too, of like,
basically, as long as somebody'scoming to you who loves yoga and
has some experience and is readyto help at a higher level beyond
just the public drop in classes,you can work with them, right?
(36:20):
That's exactly right, yeah. And that last piece is
important, Yeah. Somebody really, really wants to
help at a higher level and is ready to, you know, take their
business seriously. Yeah, yeah.
And you know, most teacher trainings don't have much to
talk about business. And still I think there's a sort
of little bit of a stigma like, oh, business is too sales.
(36:42):
They don't want to be pushy. They don't want to bug my
students. This is spiritual.
It's not about money. And those things are all true.
And it's it really is an energetic exchange.
And like you said earlier, it's like, yeah, you can do so much
with drop in classes and they'regreat.
But there's it's also very limited and like to have bigger
(37:04):
transformations and to really help people with specific
challenges requires a deeper level of commitment and
investment and will show up differently when they've
invested more financially, whichis a huge thing.
Yeah. And it's often the people who
like the highest invested courses and the biggest
(37:25):
payments. Those are the ones who are the
usually the highest invested energetically too.
And then you also lights a fire under the teacher to be more
invested in like, OK, I want to give them everything I got.
So there's a lot of value in that too.
And I think what you're doing inthe model, it really elicits
this and draws out this like a teacher to bring out their gifts
(37:46):
at a deeper level and and help at a higher level.
I think that's so important. You're really reading this
right, yes, not as you say energy exchange that where we as
practitioners get to be so fullycommitted and know the client is
so fully. It's really an even exchange of
like we are in this together andthere we go.
(38:08):
And that's not the case, as you mentioned in drop in models, you
know, and that's not the client's fault and that's not
your fault. It's just that system and how
how that is, it's just how that's built.
And so if you want something different, you know, change the
structure, yeah. Yeah, and it's it's a great way
(38:30):
to reach a lot of people and drop in classes.
And I always tell newer teacherslike teach as much as possible,
as many people as possible. You gain so much experience,
classes one-on-one, whatever youcan do.
And you just learn so much aboutthe body, about different
bodies, different needs. I definitely recommend that.
And then at a certain point, maybe a year, maybe two years
(38:54):
for me, it was really more like 5 years, but I was, I was
learning in the 20 tens before the Internet was so easy to
learn so much online now, But I,I think a lot of experience
helped. And then you start to find like
what you really love, you've learned some things and then you
have so much to offer. But even if you're at the early,
(39:15):
the inner stage, I, I think thisis something I wish I learned
earlier on as well. And yeah, it's, it's just so
cool what you're doing. And I think it's super valuable.
And I think the business doesn'thave to be so like scary or
heavy or burdensome. And the numbers, like with your
(39:38):
calculator too, like the numbersare actually pretty simple.
It's like pretty it's not like you have to have a calculus
degree to do business, but you just need to stay on top of it
and be consistent, right? Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I think, I think anybodywho's scared of business, I just
want to say like I got into business with no experience in
(40:00):
business. And, and honestly, I actually
ran into health troubles right away because it was so stressful
and I didn't know what I was doing.
But as soon as I made the decision, like, oh, I see, I
have to learn how to do business.
And I did do that and discoveredthat it's not that scary and
that it can be. You can run your business very,
(40:20):
very authentically based on yourvalues.
You absolutely can do this. It's not a you have to turn into
some greedy capitalist or something, right?
Like you really can do this in ways and set up structures that
feel totally aligned with you and your values.
And once I figured that out, everything after that is like,
ah, now this is actually like sofulfilling and enjoyable and fun
(40:45):
and is making me a living and ismore profitable, right?
And so it, it's totally, totallypossible too.
It's a decision I think you maketo step into leadership like
that. Yeah, and it's a common thing to
hear a lot from students like, oh, I want to go deeper in my
yoga practice. I don't really know what to do
(41:06):
next. If you hear this from your
students and they're like, they're wanting more and it's
not there like that is basicallythey're saying like, create
something, offer me something. If they they're wanting, they're
ready. And then like you as a
practitioner and like anyone who's taken a teacher training,
you know, it's like, there's so much, there's the philosophy,
(41:28):
there's anatomy, there's all these other things.
So you can't cover all that in one class or even a series of
classes. So then it's like, how do you
share all this passion, all thislove and all these things you've
learned? And then the students are also
looking for, this is also, I think helpful too, if you just
kind of listen and, and hear what the students are asking for
(41:50):
too. And, and the business is about
like distilling that and honing in on it.
And I mean, I can recall like every time I've had like another
growth up in my own path. Like the first time I taught at
any yoga class, spent like 2 weeks preparing for that.
And it was like a 15 minute sequence.
(42:10):
And I was just like, you know, Itook everything in me to figure
out how to do this 15 minute sequence.
And then that got easy. And then it became a full class
and then it became a workshop. And, but the first time I did a
workshop, it was like took everything in me to plan it out
and figure it out and every stepof the way, a lot of it I was
just kind of figuring out because no one taught me
(42:31):
business either. But it was once I started to
work with business teachers thataccelerated this a lot.
And what I really found is like,it's as much as it's about like
having, you know, LLC and, and income and these
responsibilities and all these things that you're managing.
But it's, it's so much of it is about bringing out your gifts at
(42:54):
a higher level and showing up ata deeper level to your work and
your purpose and your calling and like helping people at a
higher level. So I think again, it's like the
actual business details like admin taxes, this kind of stuff
that can seem like kind of scaryand not fun and burdensome, but
(43:17):
that's a small percentage of it and a small place to pay to like
get to share your gifts at a higher level and and help more
people. Totally.
You've, you've summed it up really well.
Yes. Those little pain in the ass
things are just totally this little sliver of really the
bigger picture, which is really helping people in
transformation. Yeah.
(43:37):
Yeah, well, again, Joanna, so sapir.com.
So I'll put that link in the show notes.
SAPIR, Joanna, Sapir. And how can people stay in touch
with you? Are you on the socials?
I'm not super active on the socials, but if you want to hear
from me, So if you get on my e-mail list, I send great info
(43:59):
out. And the easiest way to do that
is to get what I have for you all today, which is 3 workflow.
This is a a free gift for, for your people. 3 workflows for
business. Yeah.
So one of them is like lead generation and the workflows for
that as well as the workflows for how to enroll your clients
(44:21):
in your programs with in this case, the, the, the workflow I
have to give is what I call the red velvet rope policy.
So this is, this is part of the sales process for enrolling
folks. And so you all can find that at
joannasapir.com/yoga Teachers and hopefully you can put that
link kind of somewhere, Jeremy. I will, yes.
(44:42):
Very cool. Joanna sapir.com/yoga Teachers
with an S. Yes, great.
And yeah, lead generation, if you're going to be online, is
essential. It's like people finding you cuz
yeah. And then the other ones, the red
velvet rope. Yep, the red velvet rope policy
(45:05):
and I'm I'm trying to trying to think right now.
What's the third one we put in there?
Their. Language.
Oh yeah, speak their language. Oh, you got it.
I see it on your site speak. Their language, yeah, It's about
how to. It's about how to call in your
people. That's about how what?
What language to use to call in the right people for you?
Nice. Very cool.
(45:26):
Awesome. Well, thank you for those free
resources and thank you for thistime.
It's so good to talk with you and I'd love to work with you.
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