120: Karen Fabian on Sequencing, Anatomy, Confidence & Teaching Yoga Since 2002

In this episode of the Yoga Teacher Training Podcast, Jeremy Devens welcomes Karen Fabian, founder of Bare Bones Yoga, for a straight-talking, deeply practical, and inspiring conversation for yoga teachers at any stage of their journey. Karen shares how her unique 10-step anatomy-based method helps teachers feel more confident, clear, and connected in their classes. With a background in rehabilitative medicine and over two decades of experience teaching yoga and anatomy, Karen breaks down what actually builds confidence for teachers—and it’s not what you think.

You’ll hear insights on:

• Why repeating sequences actually builds more confidence and connection with students

• How perfectionism, childhood conditioning, and limiting beliefs show up in the teaching space

• Why teachers who practice the whole class with their students are missing the opportunity to actually teach

• How to “break up with your practice” so you can teach from embodied experience without needing to demonstrate

• What it really means to walk into a room and lead from integrity, clarity, and vision

Whether you’re just finishing your teacher training or feeling stuck years into your career, this episode will reignite your passion and clarify your purpose.

5 Key Quotes:

1. “There is something triggering about teaching yoga. And I say that from personal experience and from the teachers I work with. There’s something about it that brings up our stuff. It’s not just, oh, I’m nervous. It’s more like, I want to get it right. I want to be liked. I want them to like me. I want to do it right. I don’t want to be embarrassed.”

2. “I call it: how to break up with your practice as the source of your teaching. Because that’s what a lot of teachers do. They practice at home and then they reverse-engineer that sequence and teach it in class. And then when they get into class, they teach it from their mat.”

3. “There was no big uprising on the fourth class when I taught the same sequence. Nobody cared. Nobody was like, I’m calling corporate. Nobody. It was just a reminder to me: this is something I’m creating in my own head, this idea that every class needs to be different.”

4. “I remember one time teaching and I looked around and I realized: I’m actually teaching. I’m not just cueing from the script in my head. I’m responding to them. I’m seeing them. I’m walking around. I’m adjusting. And I thought to myself, I think I’m actually teaching yoga right now.”

   5. “Every yoga teacher has agency over how they want to show up. And I think sometimes we forget that. We think we have to be a certain way. But your experience, your background, your voice—it all matters. And your students need you to bring that to the room.”

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Karen Fabian on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/barebonesyoga/

Bare Bones Yoga: https://barebonesyoga.com/

Create a Signature Sequence with Karen Fabian: ⁠⁠https://barebonesyoga.lpages.co/how-to-create-a-signature-sequence/⁠⁠

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Practice with Jeremy in the Quietmind Yoga Membership at ⁠⁠https://www.quietmind.yoga⁠⁠

Become a Certified Yoga Teacher in the Quietmind Yoga Teacher Training at ⁠⁠https://www.quietmind.yoga/ytt⁠⁠

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Whenever I get a chance to talk to a teacher with decades of
experience, I love to just hear how they think about things and
like where their minds AT. And one of the things that I've
seen is that a lot of more experienced teachers don't have
unique sequences for every class.
Some do, but the majority of theones I've worked with don't, and

(00:23):
there's even someone I mentored with.
I worked with her. She was my mentor and I would
sit in her class and observe. She had a very large class.
A lot of amazing people loved her class and were there every
week. So as part of this mentorship
many years ago is I would sit inthe back and observe.
And so I was just writing notes and even a couple of times I
wrote out the whole sequence shewas doing and she saw this and

(00:46):
she was like, stop doing that. You don't need that.
That's not what this is about. You know, that at least this was
the way I was trained. And what she was pointing me to
was like not trying to memorize a specific sequence or to do it
one way or to try to control it too much or even that she was
thinking that way to. Because that's wasn't, wasn't,

(01:07):
that was not what she wanted me to take from those times with
her, but the energy in the room and the, the feeling of the
room. And with that, there is a
general template of a sequence that she was following.
So, you know, she's not going tostart a class with handstand in
that particular class. She's not going to in the class
with handstand in that particular class.

(01:30):
There's a certain sort of flow to it and a sort of predictable
rhythm to it. And actually, the teacher I'm
talking about is on the first episode of the podcast.
Her name is Angie Knight. So if you want to listen to that
interview with her, she was one of my mentors and very
influential to me. But it's this idea of, yeah,
have an idea and template, a foundation of how you're

(01:50):
teaching, but then be very present to the room and very
much feeling the energy of the room.
That's something I took from Angie, something I've observed
and many experienced teachers, and something we'll touch on
today in my interview with KarenFabian.
So Karen has decades of experience.
And whenever I get a chance to work with or listen to you or

(02:10):
talk to a teacher with years of experience, I know there's a lot
to learn there. And I know there's a lot of
perspective and insight there. And that's something that I've
seen and more experienced teachers is they have a general
template of a sequence. And this is what Karen calls a
signature sequence. So if you want to check out her
free guide and how to create a signature sequence that's in the
show notes, she'll mention that in the podcast today.

(02:33):
But we touch on a lot of stuff is a great talk.
We touch touch on things like building confidence as a
teacher, walking around a room and talking rather than staying
in the front of the room tied toyour yoga mat and not reading
the room. So much of this comes with time
and experience, but I think these are the kind of things
that really make a teacher connect with their students and
stand out as a teacher and builddeeper relationships beyond just

(02:57):
like a fitness instructor or just some app or something like
that. When you're working with a
teacher and they really see you and they really bringing their
presence into the room and reading the room and connecting
with you, that's something that is even more rare and valuable
in modern times. And we have so many great
resources now to learn yoga online and things like this.

(03:18):
But to me, it's why my programs and my mentorships, I keep the
classes small and intimate, so Iget to know each person in there
deeply and kind of see where they're at and see what they
need and adapt to them. So hopefully any teachers you're
working with are also like this and adapting to you and
listening to you and, and helping you with your needs.
And if you're also teaching others, you know, bringing some

(03:39):
of these insights into your teaching can help a lot.
So it's a great talk. And I also was on Karen's
podcast as well. So the Bare Bones Yoga Podcast
is 1 Karen host and I did an interview with her you can check
out now. So just wherever you find
podcasts, Bare Bones Yoga Jeremyand you'll see me on there.
And she talked to me about my background and my perspective on

(04:01):
things. And so if you want to check that
out, check that out as well. There's link is in the show
notes. But let's talk with Karen today.
She is the yoga teacher, podcasthost, author, and founder of
Bare Bones Yoga. With a background and
rehabilitative medicine and healthcare, she integrates her
deep knowledge of anatomy and movement into her teaching,
including her signature program,the Yoga Anatomy Blueprint

(04:24):
Learning Program. As a certified personal trainer
and corrective exercise specialist, Karen empowers yoga
teachers to lead confident, accessible classes while
understanding the why behind their cues.
She hosts conversations for yogateachers covering anatomy,
sequencing and expert insights, and she's authored the book
Stretched Build your Yoga business, Grow your teaching

(04:45):
techniques and structure and, and spirit.
So she's got a lot of amazing background and health and
Wellness and yoga. She's been teaching since 2002
and she has a lot of insight anddepth and experience to offer.
So it's my pleasure to share this conversation with Karen
Fabian. Welcome back to the Yoga Teacher

(05:20):
Training Podcast. I'm Jeremy Debbins, and today
I'm joined by an amazing teacherwith a lot of interesting stuff
for us to talk about today. Her name is Karen Fabian.
Welcome, Karen. Thank you.
Thank you for having me on your show.
I'm site to have a conversation.Awesome.
So Karen's the founder of Bare Bones Yoga with a background in

(05:41):
rehabilitative medicine and healthcare and you do a lot to
work with anatomy and teaching teachers.
So people who have recently finished a teacher training and
are looking to go deeper in their studies with business,
with anatomy, with all these things that are still so much
more to learn after a yoga teacher training.
So I'm curious just to hear a little bit about Bare Bones Yoga

(06:03):
and what that is and what peoplecan learn from you when they
start to go down this path with you.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks for that entree.
I can tell you the name Bear Bones Yoga came.
It's kind of an interesting story.
I've been teaching for a long time.
And back in 2008, when there wasa pretty big economic crash in

(06:25):
the US related to real estate and mortgages, and a lot of
people were losing their jobs. And I had a lot of students
coming to me saying I can't afford to keep going to yoga.
And I was thinking, this is exactly the time when people
need yoga. So I found this renovated gas
station. It used to be a gas station.
They had cleaned it out and I asked a real estate friend of

(06:49):
mine who had access to the place, can I just teach some
yoga classes there? People will just bring their
mats. I'll charge 10 bucks.
It'll be super easy for people to access yoga.
And I called it bare bones yoga as a reflection of it's just
bare bones. You're going to bring your own
water, bring your own mat, bringyour own towel.
It's focused on getting you intoyoga and I used that space for a

(07:14):
while and I had a sign that I would put up when I was there
and I would take it down when I wasn't there and it said bare
bones yoga and eventually the space wasn't available anymore.
But because I had a background in anatomy and a lot of the
teaching I was doing, my classeswere really focused on
functional movement and I was starting to get into teaching

(07:34):
anatomy and other people's teacher training programs, I
decided I liked the name. It had sort of a vibe that
worked for me because of my expertise in anatomy.
So I kept it even after the physical space went away.
And over the years, what Bare Bones Yoga, my brand represents
is really a way for teachers to build their confidence and to

(07:56):
build their skill. And a lot of it from a
foundational standpoint is understanding how the body
moves. And I don't know, as people are
listening, they might have theirown reaction to the topic of
anatomy. It always seems to be something
that teachers feel is hard to learn.
So one of my superpowers, quite honestly, is I make it really

(08:18):
easy. And I have a program where I
work with teachers one-on-one, and I teach it in a step by step
way. And it's literally 10 steps.
And every step depends on learning the step before it's a
step by step though, So you're never sort of out there in the
ethosphere just wandering aroundwondering what comes next.

(08:40):
You're just following the steps.And because it involves not just
learning it, but applying it, asyou get further down the path,
you start to learn how to use itin your queuing and in your
sequencing. And then I go into myofascial
release. So that's the bulk of what I do
now. I do teach public classes as

(09:02):
well. Most of my work is supporting
teachers in my program and I also have a membership that's
more of like a mini stepping stone to the larger offer.
I taught here in Boston for 22 years in lots of different
studios. I taught anatomy for lots of
different 200 hour trainings andthen overtime working with

(09:27):
teachers in my own program sort of took front and center.
The pandemic sort of made that transition happen as well, as my
public classes went away as all of our classes did, and I sort
of re emerged with the primary focus being supporting teachers
in that way. So that that initial decision to

(09:50):
start bare bones yoga to find anempty place and ask if you could
use it and just just start with something I think is something
that could benefit a lot of teachers, but maybe is scary or
uncertain or, but this is one ofthe big things I tell people
when they take a teacher training or finishing one or

(10:10):
about to finish one is like, if you want to teach, just just
start anywhere you can free doesn't matter, but that you're
just using that skill and you'renot losing it because if you
don't use it, you will start to lose it.
And it gets harder and harder the longer you wait.
So I'm curious to hear about that process for you.
Like, is this just kind of how you are?
Where you just, OK, I'm just going to find a place and just

(10:32):
go? Or was there maybe something
that other teachers might relateto of like feeling like insecure
or not ready or like, how do I do this?
How do I figure this out? What was that like for you?
Yeah. Well, that experience of
starting that location came a little bit in the in my career
already. I had started teaching in 2002,

(10:55):
but the interesting thing was when I started teaching, I
taught for my first teacher. I had this real vision of
teaching for him, teaching in his studios, working for him
behind the scenes, organizing all the trainings in the boot
camps and all that. And I really worked my butt off
to secure that type of lifestylefor myself.

(11:18):
And, and the way I envisioned I wanted to be a yoga teacher, it
was really very much tied to theperson who trained me and
working within that organization.
And I did that for a while, for a handful of years.
What I found was that I wasn't making enough money.
And it was really a function of I was somewhat constrained as to

(11:43):
what I could pursue because I needed to be within the
community. And it really took getting to
the point where I decided I couldn't keep working for that
organization, coupled with I built up a lot of debt.

(12:04):
I was trying to make it work. I was trying to get a loan.
I was living off a loan at one point.
And I ended up building up about$30,000 of debt.
And so kicking and screaming, I went back to a regular job.
I taught part time on the side that really, I don't want to say

(12:26):
cut ties, but kind of closed that chapter of my teaching
career when I was teaching on the side.
That was when what I described before was happening in the
economy. And that was when I started that
location. And it really came from my

(12:47):
passion for providing yoga to people that couldn't afford it.
And I would say for your listeners, for anybody listening
who feels like how could they dosomething like that or how could
they do it could be anything. It could be I graduated from
teacher training and I'm nervousto apply for a job or I really

(13:09):
want to start a YouTube channel and I'm nervous to have people
watch me or lots of different ways, as you said, you know, I
think some of it does come from being self motivated and that is
a big part of it. I think the other part of it
though, is knowing how to get started, and I find when I talk
to a lot of teachers, it's really that first step that once

(13:34):
they take that first step, whether it's starting that
Channel, creating a first video of making a couple phone calls,
doing some research as to studios nearby, that will get
the ball rolling. I do hear what you're saying
though. I think the mindset piece is a
big part of it and that's why a lot of the work I do with

(13:55):
teachers is around how do I build my confidence.
And I feel like that's often times not really discussed.
There's a lot of skill building,a lot of knowledge building.
But I've had lots of teachers share with me really just past
experiences they've had in theirlives.

(14:15):
And they go into teach a yoga class and they feel nervous.
And once we start talking, they can actually connect it back to
something that happened to them,maybe as a kid, maybe with their
parents, maybe in the way they were raised and they developed
this belief about themselves. I don't think I'm good enough to
be teaching yoga. I'm nervous when people watch

(14:37):
me. I feel like an imposter.
And it's interesting to me how the mindset piece is a big part
of it, which sort of touches on what you're talking about that
how do I get started? Sometimes it's in part strategy,
and it's also in part what's going on in your head.
Right. And what would you say?

(14:58):
How do you build confidence as ateacher?
Yeah. Well, you know, a lot of the
work that I do with teachers really is around talking about
what's happening to them in the 3D.
So like for instance, if a teacher and I are talking and

(15:18):
they're saying I'm really frustrated with teaching right
now, I feel like I can't get my class numbers up and I feel like
I'm not connecting with my students.
And I feel like it's just takingso much time every week for me
to prep for my classes. Those are problems they're
experiencing in the 3D. They're doing the thing, they're

(15:38):
feeling the thing right. It's and so I'll start to try to
uncover, well, tell me a little bit about what's going on.
What kind of prep are you doing?Well, every week I write a new
sequence because every week I'd like to have a new theme for my
classes. And this probably sounds pretty
common, right? But then when I uncover, well,

(16:00):
when you go into your class to teach your class with this new
sequence, let's say you do all this prep work on Sunday night,
what happens when you're teaching?
Well, it's really hard for me toremember because it's a new
sequence and I feel like I have to practice it with them.
Otherwise my mind goes blank. This is a very common
experience. And this leads to the nerves and

(16:21):
this leads to the feeling like I'm not ready for this.
I'm not good enough for this. Everybody else's class is better
than mine. And so I'll start to talk to
them about, well, why would you be willing to experiment with
teaching a similar sequence fromclass to class?
And the first thing they'll say is, well, I can't do that

(16:43):
because my students will get bored.
And I'll say, well, where did you come up with that belief?
Well, that's just what everybodysays to me.
Like my students need something different every week.
You know, how are they going to stay interested and how will
they like my class? So that becomes really the bulk

(17:04):
of the conversation, this, this sort of battle between what
they're experiencing in their life.
I'm spending hours prepping. It's not helping me feel
prepared. I go and I feel nervous.
I feel like I have to practice with them.
And it's a battle between that lived experience, which isn't
pleasant, and this belief. And So what I often times do, I

(17:29):
have a whole list of beliefs I've heard over the years.
What I what Ioffer the teacher is an experiment.
Would you be willing for the next 4 classes to teach the same
thing? And they'll usually say, you

(17:50):
know, it depends. Sometimes they'll go, OK great.
Sometimes they'll go, I'm not really sure, and then there's
everything in between. Most teachers, though, these are
usually teachers I'm working with in my program, so they've
already taken a step to say I'm ready to change.
But even in just regular conversation I have with
teachers and DMS or emails, sometimes they'll say, yeah, I'm

(18:10):
willing to experiment with it. And do you know that every
single time the person will comeback to me and you know what
they'll say? Oh my God, I can't believe how
much more confident I feel teaching my sequence.
And nobody said anything, nobodycomplained, nobody left.
No, there was no, you know, big uprising on the 4th class.

(18:34):
Like this feels familiar. Why are you teaching this?
Nobody cared. And so a large part, and I have
other examples around other aspects of teaching, but this
one just sort of gives you the model, the framework, and it
really involves an experiment inservice to busting a belief you

(18:55):
have that's blocking you from teaching in a way that feels
easy. And when it feels easy to teach,
I mean, you know this, right? When it feels easy to teach,
it's easy to feel confident because you feel like you know
what you're doing. All of what I described, the
feeling like I have to practice with them otherwise I won't

(19:17):
remember, the nervousness about my mind's going to go blank
because the sequence is something I'm not familiar with.
And that feeling like I'm looking out in the class, are
they liking this? You know, all of that creates
this level of anxiety and certainly blocks confidence.
Absolutely, Yeah. This is something I've found

(19:39):
myself as well, and I've talked about a lot in this podcast of
like, when you're learning any skill, repetition is one of the
best ways to learn the skill. And when you're working with the
body, it's like there's only so many movements like an arm can
make like you bend the elbow, you straighten the elbow, you
know, it's there's only so many movements in the body.
So you don't need to try to reinvent it every week with a

(20:00):
new sequence and a whole new approach to yoga.
And for me, it's also important for teachers to think like as a
student, like what is it like when you go to classes?
Like, do you want a completely new thing every week or do you
want some consistency or? You know, and what you enjoy as
a student. And I think we kind of
overcomplicated in those early years and like as we're kind of

(20:20):
trying to distinguish ourselves and find ourselves and but it
really can be that simple like you say.
Yeah, yeah, I think you're exactly right.
And at the same time, you know, sometimes when I'll post about
this on my Instagram, I'll get alot of comments from teachers
who don't believe this or don't want to believe this or who

(20:42):
outright disagree with it. And they'll say 1 teacher
recently commented on this topicon the video I have that has
over 20,000 views and hundreds of comments.
Most of the comments are, Oh my God, this has given me
permission to finally go in and teach what I love in a sequence

(21:04):
I love and not feel pressure to change it.
So there's lots of like that as if you needed permission.
This is part of the narrative out there that somehow yoga
teachers need permission to do what we're talking about.
So that's one. And then there's other comments
like, oh, this is just a cookie cutter approach.

(21:25):
If you were really skilled, you would be able to walk into the
room and teach what they need and teach what they want.
And that sort of thing, quite honestly, really drives me crazy
because it continues to proliferate this sort of
esoteric languaging in the yoga industry that makes new and even

(21:49):
experienced teachers feel like there's this sort of ethereal
place that I aspire to get to where I will magically walk into
the room. Let's talk in reality with a
bunch of people I don't know, not one person who I'm going to
have a conversation with, with awhole bunch of people that I
don't know that will not be talking with me.

(22:10):
They're not saying anything, andsomehow in my development as a
teacher, I'm going to get to this high level where I will
magically know what they want and need.
Now, I get it that those comments don't maybe literally
mean that, but that's how teachers interpret it.

(22:32):
And that's why teachers bend over backwards doing all of this
changing of their sequences, because they feel like there's
all these things I have to do tobe that kind of teacher.
And that's just words. If we're going to talk about,
well, how do you do that? Well I would say if you want to

(22:53):
teach what your students need, you'll never know 100%, but your
best chance is to be walking around and watching them.
Your worst chance is to be 100%,turn sideways and doing the
practice because now you can't see them.
So how is it even possible to know even close to what they

(23:15):
need if you're not even watchingthem?
Totally. Yeah.
That's the only way they can communicate with you, unless you
want to ask them questions. But like they're communicating
through their body and their movements.
If you say something and they doit something very different than
what you're expecting, like, OK,you maybe need to look at your
queuing if it looks like they'restruggling.

(23:38):
I see this so many times, even with a relatively experienced
teachers, where they, they mightbe holding plank, like the
teacher can hold plank all day, but they're not looking around
and seeing like half of their students have now like stopped
and they're on their knees and they're just like waiting for
the teacher and the teachers in their own little world, like
talking about plank pose and allthis other stuff that's like,

(23:59):
hold on, look around. What are your students doing?
You're teaching students. You're not just doing your own
practice here. Yeah.
I've had teachers say to me, I like practicing with them
because I can get my workout in and my head just like explodes.
I don't hear that a lot. I do hear that though.

(24:19):
What I typically hear though is this connection to that's how I
know what to do. And so I call it how to break up
with your practice as the sourceof your teaching because when
you do that as a teacher, you get your practice back.
Remember your practice before you went to your 200 hour

(24:41):
teacher training and you went onyour little pilgrimage to the
yoga studio with your mala beadsand your whatever essential oils
and whatever, you know, you set your map and that was your time.
And now I talked to teachers andthey don't have that time
anymore. That time has become intertwined
in their teaching and they're queuing, like you said, and

(25:06):
their sequence is dependent on their practice.
And guess what? Their students are now dependent
on them to do it, which is why Iwhen I teach this other concept
called the walk and talk, teachers will say to me, well,
I'm trying to stay on my feet and walk around, but they keep

(25:29):
looking at me with this look on their face like, why aren't you
doing it? And I'm like, dude, you made
them dependent on you. They are acting in an
appropriate way in response to how you are teaching them.
And now if you want to gently start to break that energetic

(25:49):
cord between you and your students, it's going to take a
little bit of verbalization. Like when you start your class,
say, you know what, guys, I'm not actually going to do any
yoga today. I'm going to give you space to
dive into your practice. Like whatever you want to say.
Then you're going to start walking around.
Yes, they're going to be in downdog.
Yes, you're going to see them picking their head up looking
for why isn't she doing it and or he doing it.

(26:13):
And that's when you want to say,Hey, keep on going or say
whatever, acknowledging that their expectation is you're
going to be doing it. That doesn't mean you have to do
it. You know, it's like we're trying
to coach them, quite frankly, out of a model that is pretty

(26:35):
predominant out there. Most students would probably
say, when I go to yoga class, the teachers doing 50, sixty,
90% of the class. And to that I say, why can't I
just stay home and do a video? What benefit to me as a student
do I get when I'm just watching somebody do their practice?

(26:56):
Right. And this is the thing, I think
it's more of a modern thing maybe and this kind of wave of
generation of teachers, because there's plenty of teachers now
who basically learned on YouTubeand learned on videos and didn't
spend a lot of time in studios. And I'm of the time where
YouTube was barely just beginning and you even before

(27:20):
that. So there was not much yoga on
YouTube. So all the stuff I learned early
on was in classes and is a lot slower process.
It seemed like it just, it seemed like it could be so much
faster. Now you can just watch dozens of
yoga classes all day on YouTube before you had to go to a class.
And like that was a big commitment and a lot of time

(27:40):
investment. And a lot of those teachers, I
was very fortunate that I had a lot of teachers who did not
demonstrate and they would, I feel like they gave me so much
attention and energy even in a large class.
Like I felt like it was a personalized experience a lot of
the times and so valuable. And most of those teachers would
just like sit on the side of theroom or walk around the room,

(28:02):
like not go in front of the roomvery much at all.
And it's, it's just such a more connecting experience.
And like you can't get that froma video.
You can only get that in person.And it's, it's a very different
thing. It's just a different thing.
It's is when I hear teachers saylike, Oh, I didn't practice

(28:22):
today, but I taught a class. So I got some yoga and it's
like, no, you, you, you taught aclass.
You didn't do your practice. It's a very different mindset,
different mental energy going on, different energetics.
But I was so fortunate to have those teachers.
And but now he's modern wave of teachers might just be learning
on YouTube and might not being in the might not be in the

(28:43):
class. So I tell a lot of these
teachers like just don't even bring a mat, don't lay a mat
out. So you don't even have the
option to get on a mat, first ofall.
So you might still end up doing some things and demonstrating
out of habit, but at least you don't have this sort of like
safety blanket of like, I'm justgoing to go mad and just go in
my own space. Like, you know, stay with the

(29:03):
group. Because it's like, I can say
from my experience, like the teachers I connected with the
most, I felt like they were fully with me in the experience
and everybody else in the group.Yes.
It's like they weren't not goingaway into their own practice
because when you go in your practice it's a very internal
thing. When you're teaching, it's an

(29:23):
external thing. Yeah, totally.
And and that I think becomes theconnection for teachers between
queuing from what what I call queuing without doing versus
queuing from your own somatic experience.
If I could just go into my classes and do the practice,

(29:45):
even being someone with a lot ofexperience, it would be so easy
for me. I would just be taught as I'm
pressing away from the mat and down dog, I would say press away
from the mat. As I'm pulling my belly button
in, I would say pull my belly button in.
But just like you said, when I'min plank, I know to align my
head over my shoulders, that that's a connection to

(30:07):
anatomical position. And it's easier just because the
head is centered even though you're you're prone.
But students don't often know that.
So just like you said, what if they're all with their head
hanging down and their core hanging down and no transverse
abdominis activation and that sort of thing?
I'm going to miss that. So now what I'm saying has no

(30:28):
relevance to what's happening. And just like you said earlier,
the clues are all there. That's why for teachers, when
they start to do the walk and talk, they tell me like I didn't
even realize all this stuff was going on.
That gives me fodder for what I'm going to say.

(30:48):
So now I'm not a repeater. Now I feel like I'm a teacher
because I'm not just cueing fromthe script in my head.
Now, I might start with blah, blah, blah, but then I see like
you had mentioned, are they in it?
Are they reacting in a way that matches what I want to see from
an alignment point of view? If not, well, now I can say no,

(31:10):
tuck your tailbone or no, scoop your sitting bone under or stack
your knee. Now it's relevant.
It's like exactly what's happening in the moment.
And again, what you had said, this idea from the student of,
wow, this person's really watching me, like even without
saying like, hey, Jeremy, can you blah, blah, blah.
Like it's just you're throwing it out there, maybe inspired by

(31:34):
one person, knowing that other people will benefit from it, but
that person's definitely going to feel seen, right?
And then we haven't even talked about remember assisting
students, Like remember when we used to do that?
And I get it. Things have shifted for many
reasons in the yoga world aroundassisting.

(31:54):
When you begin to walk around, now you have your hands free.
And so with permission from the student, now you can maybe give
a little directive assist. I'm not talking about deepening
and range type things, just a little nudge here or there with
again with their permission. And so that's a whole other Ave.

(32:18):
So the I just the richness of the teaching experience for both
the teacher and the student justgrows exponentially when we
start to disconnect from the doing of it.
Absolutely. And it's so much more than just
teaching, OK, mountain pose, right?

(32:39):
That's like the most entry levelthing for a teacher to do is
just say, OK, get into a pose that I know the name of the
pose. I kind of know why we do it.
I kind of know where it fits in a sequence.
We do sun salutations now. We'll do this now.
And that's sort of just like a surface level understanding.
But then with time, and this does just take time and
experience and embodiment. It's like you start to

(33:01):
understand, well, why are we doing mountain pose here?
Or why would it make sense to domountain pose here?
And then what's really happeningin the core?
And then as you learn the anatomy more like you're talking
to like, and you know what to look for and you start to see,
oh, maybe somebody's got lordosis in their spine and you
can adjust the way you teach to them a little bit.
But you, if you're just eyes closed doing mountain pose

(33:24):
yourself, it's like you're not going to see that.
And if you don't know the anatomy, you're not going to see
it. So it's in some ways I think of
it like you're just overtime as a yoga practitioner, just
turning on more and more lights in your awareness.
And now you see, oh, their, their feet are slightly
externally rotated. Interesting.
Oh, their shoulders are slightlyshrugged up towards the ears and

(33:46):
like everybody is different and there's like all these little
things you start to see. And it made once I started
unlock anatomy a little more formyself, it made yoga so much
more interesting and exciting and teaching so much more
exciting because it's like now there's you just know what
you're looking for. But the very beginning, I didn't
know any of that. And I just thought, OK, warrior

(34:08):
two, you're supposed to bend your front knee.
You're supposed to straighten your arms.
OK, I got it. And it's like years and years
later, it's like, OK, there's somuch more happening here and so
much more to feel, to look for. And with that embodied
experience, kind of like you said too, it's like there's a
somatic awareness and embodiment, but then there's a
way to to teach that from your somatic awareness without

(34:31):
needing to experience your somatic awareness in the moment.
But because of your experience with it, of your practice, like
now you can speak to that and then that makes you know what to
what to do when you're assisting.
Like why do you do assist a certain way for that specific
muscle or effect? And it's just more and more
lights turning on is everything becoming clearer and clearer as

(34:54):
you go? But it does take time.
And Someone Like You, I imagine you basically help speed that
process up and simplify that process for your students.
So, like, so they're not like mewhen I was learning.
Like, I had an amazing anatomy teacher, but he was very
technical. And I was like, I wish I knew
what he was talking about because it sounds very good and

(35:14):
very helpful. But it's just all I don't know.
And I tried to read books, and it took me a while to find a
teacher who resonated with me and to find a way to unlock it.
And it sounds like you've got pretty good methods to help with
this. Yeah.
Yeah, I think you know my background.
I originally thought I wanted tobe a physical therapist.
So when I originally went to college here in Boston, at

(35:36):
Boston University, that was the academic path I took.
I then after a couple of years of that program, decided I don't
want to just work with people's limbs.
So I ended up getting my undergrad and rehab counseling,
and I worked in hospitals and rehab centers, and I did some
vocational counseling. And when I went to my first yoga
class in 1999, it was such a beautiful blend of the mind and

(35:59):
the body. And because I had an anatomy
background and had worked in different clinical settings, I
was like, this is it. Then when I began to go through
teacher training and get exposedto anatomy in a 200 hour and
then other trainings, it was just so curious to me that there
was really no pattern to how it was taught.

(36:19):
Then when I went and got certifications in the personal
training world, just to kind of go down that path and see how
anatomy is taught there, it was also taught differently.
So I was just so curious as to every time I went and took
another quote UN quote anatomy training, it was different in
terms of what was taught, how itwas taught.

(36:41):
And then as I developed my own method for teaching it, every
single teacher I would interfacewith would say I didn't learn it
in my 200 hour. And I knew because I've been in
the yoga industry since 2002, actually even before Yoga
Alliance had their first foray into saying this is what teacher

(37:04):
trainings need to offer. I, I knew that there were so
many trainings out there. Everybody was doing it
differently. And I knew that.
Again, back to what you were saying, if we learn something as
complicated as anatomy in a different way every single time
we go to a training, it's reallyhard to learn.

(37:24):
And additionally, it's very hardto teach yourself anatomy on
your own. So most yoga teachers who don't
understand it from their 200 hour do what you did.
They buy a bunch of books, they watch a bunch of videos, they
try to figure it out. That could take forever.
It's kind of like TikTok. You could end up going down a
whole rabbit hole about the glutes and it's never going to

(37:45):
help you be a better, better teacher.
But you might think in your naive brain, and I don't mean
that in a derogatory way. You just don't know what's
important to know. And so as I was out there
teaching anatomy for other people's 200 hours, they would
just give me the anatomy part. They would say you like this,
you take this. And so I had this experience of

(38:07):
teaching it multiple times and starting to come up with what
should we focus on? Knowing what we want to end up
doing. All the stuff we're talking
about, walking around the room, feeling confident, sharing clear
cues, not speaking from our own somatic experience, but speaking
to what's happening in front of us, understanding good
functional mechanics like as we look at somebody in Mountain

(38:30):
Post, for instance. So I did start to create this
step by step that I talked aboutbefore.
And having run so many teachers through it, it's almost like the
scientific method. I was able to tweak it and keep
tweaking it. And then that eventually led to
creating it in a virtual format.But I knew if I just sent them
off to watch videos like you were talking about before, it's

(38:54):
not going to be good enough sending them.
Even with my step by step method.
If I just gave them the video portal and said watch the
videos, that's the step by step,I knew it wouldn't be enough.
Because learning anatomy is a dynamic activity.
It involves talking to the teacher, making sure they

(39:14):
understand it, asking questions,answering, you know, it's
applying it to teaching. So that's why, unlike most
teacher trainings, I only offer this program one-on-one so I
have a chance to talk to the teacher.
Now, granted, it is on Zoom, butit's much better than just

(39:37):
sending them off to watch a bunch of videos.
And it's in those coaching callsthat the other stuff comes up,
the mindset piece. So now they're getting the
fundamentals of anatomy, how to apply to cues and sequences, and
they're also out there teaching.So they're bringing up what's
happening in real life in their classes and some of the limiting

(40:00):
beliefs they're having. So it's this comprehensive way
to start to hack away at some ofthese behaviors they don't want
to have. But sometimes not even realizing
it's because like I've had a teacher one time say.
You know, my parents were alwayson me to get straight A's.
And I really consider myself a perfectionist.
And when I go in and teach my classes, all I see is people out

(40:23):
of alignment. Like, that was her view, but it
was informed by her lived experience.
And so when people graduate fromteacher training and they start
teaching and they have this sortof disconnected experience from
what they thought, many times they don't even think to connect
it to who they are, their identity.

(40:45):
You know, I've had people tell me I grew up the youngest of six
kids. I was always super shy.
And now I'm teaching yoga and I'm terrified to be in front of
people like this is real lived experience of teachers.
But if they don't talk about it,that's where all the behaviors
come into play. And then the person might feel

(41:07):
like this is just not what I thought it would be.
I'm just not feeling like this is something that's easy and fun
and I don't feel like I'm in my Dharma and that sort of thing.
That relationship with some sortof mentor or experienced teacher
is the only reason I'm here for sure.
I mean even my first teacher training I only took it for

(41:29):
myself. I just wanted to learn as much
as I could and practice deeper and I didn't feel confident to
teach. I didn't think I I felt like an
imposter like a lot of people do.
It's like, no, this, I'm not a teacher.
I'm just a practitioner. And my teacher was like, you're
a teacher. She's like, you got this, you're
great. Keep doing it.
Like she's very supportive, veryhelpful.

(41:50):
And that one conversation probably changed the trajectory
of my life and is very just a short moment with her of like,
you know, just I wanted feedback.
Like, what did you think when I taught my first class to a
group? And and then from there, it's
just been like so many of these very important conversations
with teachers of like not feeling sure about this or going

(42:12):
through this thing personally. And I like how you're weaving in
so much of the personal back story and maybe childhood
experience that it seems like no, no, no, I'm a teacher.
I'm just trying to teach yoga. It's like nothing to do with my
childhood, my past traumas or something.
It's like, but it's, it does, ithas such a big impact.
And this to stand in front of a room of strangers and

(42:34):
confidently lead them of how to move their body for an hour or
two is, is a very interesting role in society.
And there's a lot of things thatcome with that and possibly
shyness and security, perfectionism, all this stuff.
And I love that you address that.
And you know, I can say for anyone who doesn't have a mentor
or teacher or guide, like that sort of relationship like you're

(42:56):
talking about with it's just a longer, harder path, I think as
a teacher, because this is a teacher at a student lineage
over many, many generations. And I think it's very important
to have that sort of like you offer this one to one feedback
and you know, over Zoom, all you're missing is the physical
touch. Like, but an experienced teacher

(43:18):
has everything else, you know, and the physical touch is
actually a small part. It can be very impactful and
very important. But everything else about that
teacher student relationship or mentor relationship is, I think,
one of the most important piecesof this journey of being a
teacher. Yep, Yep.
Yeah. The belief that somebody can can

(43:39):
have almost on your behalf. Like many times when I'll talk
to a teacher, even though they're telling me about the
problems they're having, I see in them the potential even when
they don't see it. And you know that the
conversations I'll have will be focused.
Yes, great. Tell me about what's not

(44:00):
working. Also tell me, what do you want
to do in this world with yoga? You know, let's talk about your
vision. Why did you take a teacher
training in the 1st place? You know, so even though some of
what we're talking about in terms of the identity the person
has about themselves, the beliefs they have that maybe
they didn't even realize they had until they went to teacher

(44:24):
training and interface, talk to other teachers, you know, these
things develop in different ways.
And it's not as if, I mean, I amdefinitely not doing therapy
with people. I don't want anybody to think
that's the case. But what you had said before
about walking in A room, I do find, and I'm in full agreement

(44:45):
with you that there's something,and I, and I use this word
intentionally, there is something triggering about
teaching yoga. And it's everything you said
walking in a room with people you don't know, public speaking,
which many, many people are worried about doing.
It's very stressful experience and it's also the fact that
we're teaching something that's been around for thousands of

(45:09):
years that has both the movementaspect to it and a philosophy
aspect to it. And a lot of the philosophy is,
is described in certainly a different language and, and
lessons that we can certainly argue for how applicable they
are even today, but they're not often presented in current ways.

(45:32):
So people feel like, just like with anatomy, I don't understand
yoga philosophy. So now there's all this pressure
and you go in and all these limiting beliefs get poked and
prodded because of what you're doing.
And so that's why I always say to teachers when we're working
together, the the work that you are doing to sort of uncover

(45:57):
that teacher in you that you really want to be is work that
you're doing to develop a betterrelationship with yourself.
Because when you go in the room,you're going in as yourself, So
are your students, they're bringing all their hang ups,
you're bringing all yours. So in the work you do to move
past those limiting beliefs, youwill develop a better

(46:18):
relationship with yourself. It's not about really being a
better teacher. What is that?
We can define that a million different ways, but it's feeling
like what we talked about before, confident, authentic,
empowered, not feeling like I have to teach it this way
because that's what I have to dobecause that's what they say or
whatever. And all of that, when we wrap it

(46:41):
all up is I'm developing a better relationship with me.
If I was a shy person and I workthrough some of that, I come out
of that maybe thinking I went into it so I could be a better
teacher. But I come out of it really
feeling like I'm standing up formyself more in my relationship,

(47:03):
in my relationship with my family.
I'm using my voice more, whatever it is, maybe even with
my doctor when I advocate for myown healthcare.
There's lots of different ways that the work you do on this
path will, I don't want to say help you be a better person, but
help you knock down some of those things that might be
limiting your growth and satisfaction and happiness and
fulfillment in your life. Right.

(47:26):
It's such a huge personal growthpath to be a teacher.
And there's a saying that one ofmy teachers would say is if you
want to learn yoga, you practiceit.
If you want to master yoga, you teach it.
Because to really the best student is probably the teacher.
The best student in a yoga room is in the sense of best of,

(47:46):
like, maybe they know the most, have a lot of lived experience
with anatomy, philosophy, the meditation, the mindfulness,
breath work, knowing different techniques, when to use them.
Yeah. But, you know, best is a very
relative word. But there is a sense of mastery
that does develop with time and with stepping into this role of

(48:07):
like, OK, I'm going to be somebody who continues this
lineage from my teachers. Who?
Passes on this knowledge. And to do that, I'm going to
need to embody it. I'm going to need to live it.
And if we want to teach about things like quieting the mind,
we're probably going to be confronted with everywhere the
mind is not quiet. And that's very hard to do by
yourself without a mentor or support.

(48:28):
And if we want to learn anatomy,we're going to be confronted
with everywhere we don't know anatomy.
And if we want to share that with somebody else, like we're
going to have to see all the places that we don't know about
it yet. And like you said earlier, it's
it's amazing now how many resources are available with
like YouTube and reels and shorts And like, there's so many

(48:48):
great things now, but it is likeknowing what I know as an
experienced teacher, and likely you have this experience too.
It's like you learn like you cansee a really cool one minute
video about the glutes. And that's, yeah, what they're
saying is useful and accurate, but like might not actually
apply to a yoga class or like itmaybe only applies when you're

(49:11):
doing bridge pose or something. And like the new teacher might
not know and they try to share this and it's, oh, I just
learned this cool thing. And it's like, hold on.
Like let's see where this actually fits in the practice.
And these things just take time and experience.
And it's this amazing journey that we're on of like so much
personal growth that comes through stepping into the role

(49:33):
of a teacher. So much stuff used to confront.
And like even for me, the first like 3 or 4 years of teaching, I
thought I was projecting my voice and thought I was pretty
confident in the room. And there was a day where it
just like suddenly my voice changed and I was like clearer.
I was just projecting more is like, oh, now I feel like I'm

(49:55):
actually confident in the room is actually range in my voice.
Before that, it was like I was kind of quiet reserved as I was
in this as a child, but like it just took time, like just
repetition. And I was teaching a lot.
And then finally after like 3 or4 years, like this sort of
breakthrough of confidence came through or clarity or range of

(50:18):
voice. And it's like this kind of
growth maybe would have happenedif I wasn't a yoga teacher or
maybe would have happened elsewhere.
But there's so many things like that I could point to that this
journey is unlocked for me. And I think it's just one of the
best things people can do for themselves to keep going like
beyond just the teacher trainingand do things like what you

(50:40):
offer and like, I love that you offer the step by step path.
It helps make it more like direct and clear and not so
random and scattered. Like a lot of well-intentioned
teachers do this or they they just kind of OK, I know about
this, I know about that. But I love that you lay out a
path for people because this canbe like such one of the biggest

(51:01):
personal growth paths people canever walk.
Yeah, very much so. I mean, I think when you had
said before about if you really want to master and teach it, I
always think of that. I mean, I, I don't know if I'd
heard that saying before, but I thought of it when you mentioned
it when I talked to a teacher. And they'll say, well, I've been

(51:21):
practicing for 20 years, so I feel like I should know how to
teach. And I'm like, well, but your
practice is your practice. Like anybody listening to this
can relate to that first time they tried to articulate, you
know, yoga practice, maybe in their practice session of

(51:42):
teaching and their teacher training.
And they didn't know what to say.
And their voice went, their mindwent blank and they probably
thought, but wait, I know this. I've been practicing yoga for 10
years, but that's the whole point.
The practicing of the yoga. I mean, if we just look at it
through the lens of neuroscience, there's the
synopses and the mental skills, the learning skills that are

(52:06):
connected to practicing yoga. There is a different, like Liam
Neeson, there's a different set of skills that are used when
you're teaching it. Telling people how to go through
sun salutations, from watching them and from knowing how to
clearly share information to a group of people, not by doing it

(52:29):
is different from doing it. And that's often times where the
struggle is experienced that I don't know how to say it.
And so I think that saying that you mentioned before, you know,
beautifully illustrates that. Yeah.
I think about all of the growth we have as a yoga teacher.
It's kind of like being an entrepreneur, you know, you're
sort of in a way out there on your own.

(52:52):
You know, there's a little bit of a solopreneur aspect to what
we do as teachers. And, and it is something that is
hard, I think for other people, even other people in fitness and
Wellness to relate to because ofthe unique experience that we're
creating for people. Yeah, it's a special role in

(53:15):
society for a yoga teacher. Not a fitness instructor, not a
priest or priestess or spiritualadvisor, not a counselor,
therapist, not a psychologist. But all the same, all those
things at once, somehow. Yeah.
And I mean, that was my, I mean,people sometimes ask me when I

(53:37):
have conversations with people on different podcasts or even
just in conversation because of my background.
I thought I wanted to be a physical therapist.
I started working in the clinical world as a rehab
counselor and part of different clinical teams where I was sort
of straddling medicine and also really mindset in a way, but in

(53:58):
the context of a health, you know, care facility.
But when I went to take my firstyoga class, it was like a
lightning bolt. I said, wow, I didn't even know
this modality existed. That was such a blend.
And it really had to do with howmy original teacher presented
it. It was a balance of both the

(54:18):
physical and the mindset and themental and the spiritual.
I think if I had maybe had an introduction to yoga with
another type of teacher, it would be a little different.
But man, I was like, this is definitely for me, you know,
this kind of blend is definitelyfor me.
So yeah. So that was that was the spark
that lit the flame for sure. Yes, yeah.

(54:40):
And everyone's different, you know, and there are teachers who
are more body centric, teachers who are more philosophical or
spiritual. And I think there's room for all
of that. And it's important for the
individual teacher to decide what's aligned for them.
Yes. And let me just say as we're as
we're wrapping up, let me just say to everything we've talked
about here, I am always of the the position that every yoga

(55:05):
teacher has agency over how theywant to show up.
I am not here in this conversation with you to say if
you're practicing with your students, that's bad or wrong.
I think there's too much of thatin yoga where we're saying this
is the right way to do it. These are cues.
I wouldn't say these are cues. I would say blah, blah, blah.
And it's not. We are in such a non sort of

(55:26):
right, wrong, good, bad profession.
Yeah, it just requires honesty, like real extreme honesty from
each teacher to ask themselves, am I really teaching in a way
that's In Sync with how I want to show up?
Do I really, truly understand anatomy when I'm standing up

(55:48):
there sharing anatomy based cues?
Am I really teaching in places and spaces that really match how
I want to show up? Am I really presenting a
sequence that really matches what I want to offer people?
Like it takes real honesty because guess what, we're all
sort of out here doing it our own way and no one is really in

(56:10):
charge. So in a way, no one's going to
come to your class and say that anatomy cue was wrong or how
come you're practicing. That's why the level of
integrity honestly, that we all need to have to be on the right
path for us is completely self driven.

(56:31):
And. We have to be the ones each
individual teacher has to be theone to say I am truly and can
honestly look myself in the mirror and say I am on the right
path for me. I'm doing it in a way that
allows me, I think if it like the sword from a stone, allows
me to kind of be that sword coming out of the stone and I am

(56:52):
just in complete simpatico with with the vision of how I want to
show up. Yeah.
And then there's people like youwho are now on the side of
having realized the vision and written a book and started the
business and grown podcast and teaching career and all of this.
So then people who are earlier on in their, in their stages of

(57:15):
development as a teacher and their vision and can look to
people like you and, and have support and guidance.
And I think that part is so essential on the path of like,
OK, once you clarify your vision, look around and see
who's realized that vision or some elements of it that you can
learn from and it will save you so much time and effort and
struggle and, and give you so much guidance and support on the

(57:38):
process. So I appreciate talking with
you. I'm grateful the work you're
doing and so grateful for peoplelike you out there just sharing
this, your love of yoga and what's aligned for you and this
conversation. Yeah, it's been very nice.
Well, thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk.
I could talk about yoga all day.So I really, really appreciate

(57:59):
the chance to have a really highlevel conversation about it.
It's been very enriching for me to hear, you know, your your
thoughts on it as well. And yeah, and I would say in
terms of all the videos and access to info, you know, as
people are listening, if you want to just kind of get short
snippets of things, things definitely go to my Instagram.

(58:22):
It's my most loved. I love Instagram as a way to
connect with people because it gives me a way to have really
short conversations about different topics.
A lot of what we talked about here on on Instagram, I am, I am
on there as bare bones yoga. So it's really easy to find.

(58:42):
And if in this conversation people were sort of intrigued to
learn more. I am very my Instagram bio says
straight talk for yoga teachers.I don't, you know, I don't hold
back. I just speak plainly and clearly
and and love using that as a wayto get word out.

(59:03):
You're from the East Coast, you don't mess around.
Yeah, I was born in New York City and I've Boston most of my
life, so I definitely have that.And I also have it just because
I feel like similar what we weretalking about before.
A lot of how yoga teachers tend to speak is sort of shrouded in
these esoteric terms that make it hard for people to

(59:26):
understand. I can go there.
I just love to be super practical to get the ball
rolling for people. And of course, in the anatomy
part, to stay really pragmatic and practical and with all the
other stuff, to just kind of getthe ball rolling.
And then once you're, you know, getting the ball rolling, yes,

(59:47):
then you're talking about chakras and philosophy, and
you're spontaneously doing things in your sequence.
So yeah, it's straight talk in service to you being so
confident and comfortable that now you can go in all sorts of
different directions and really express yourself however you
want. I love that.

(01:00:08):
Well said. So thank you again, Karen.
So great to talk with you and thank you for your time.
Thank you. We enjoyed this episode and want
to practice with me. Go to Quiet Mind dot Yoga and
check out the Quiet Mind Yoga membership with hundreds of
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(01:00:30):
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