Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome back to the yoga teachertraining podcast.
(00:02):
I'm Jeremy Devon's. And today, I'm here with Susan
Ruffo, welcome. Hi.
You know, I just got back from teaching a yoga teacher
training. Oh, that's your in Asia, right?
Where were you? I was first in Thailand and then
I was in India and I was teaching at 3:00 a level 2
teacher training in rishikesh India.
(00:25):
Beautiful. Yeah, so yeah, just got back
from doing it. So, it's all very fresh in my,
in my experience in my body. Awesome.
So for the, Owners, you're obviously International, yoga
teacher, trainer and Creator, folk co-creator of the summer,
Rasta Center online, yoga membership.
(00:47):
And you teach an online course called yoga Sex and Death.
That's telling my friend about this, and he thought I was going
to say, yoga sex and love because you heard someone else,
you know, some of the teachers that and he was like, whoa
death. Okay.
That's like a little different. It, I'm very interested to hear
(01:09):
about kind of that process of creating that and what that
entails because I have the astrology, the chodesh
background basic astrology and those things are all eight
house. Those are all like the kind of
same realm of like transformative work, personal
growth deeper, work things that are often like hidden and
secretive in society. We don't talk about too much but
(01:30):
they're becoming more and more accessible as everything has.
And I love that you're doing that because I don't know of any
One else teaching those deeper things, I like everybody
experiences. Everybody knows everybody talks
about in private but very peoplelike address or talk about our
duty work around it. Like in a more open, kind of
(01:50):
forum like a training or course like this.
So, very interested to hear about this program and how we
created and everything. Well, you know, it's interesting
to me to hear you say that aboutyour friend like, oh, whoa,
because I've heard this so many times about just been me in,
like, that's such a great name is such a great name because it
gets your attention and people really like, whoa.
(02:13):
And I am starting to wonder wonder if it if the name is just
too much for people because whatI hear a lot is I want to take
it but I'm afraid I'm I'm scared.
And so, I'm really starting to wonder if actually it scares
(02:35):
people. So there's that.
But there's also the it's very intentional to naming yoga
success because it is such a strong name because we do strong
work in there and so it kind of automatically just will filter
(02:57):
out people who are not really upfor and that time in their life.
Anyway, just not ready or wanting to do that kind of Deep.
Deep work. But yeah, I little bit second
death. Where you going to say
something? That I know that's, that is a
(03:18):
good filter. It's true.
And I actually my first yoga teacher matam Benton and Austin,
Texas, I went to an info sessionat Studio there you'll be okay
in Austin and I think yeah, yeah, it's great place.
Well, it was, you know, and we did these like breakouts.
(03:39):
We talked about the training everything and answered
questions. And he said, you know, Yoga is
really about preparing to die and I never had anything like
that before. So I just I was like whoa that's
powerful and I actually sat withthat for a while like processing
what that really means and took me a while to get it.
(04:01):
But I totally agree now and I get what he's saying like we do
to Boston. Every practice practice, letting
go practice, not attachment, buteven at, like he said that, you
know, in our info session. In but I never really heard him
say that anywhere else after working with him for years.
After that, it's not the most like upfront, kind of thing.
Usually, put out there about yoga by love that you are doing
(04:23):
that. And it's true.
It's what we're big part of whatwe're doing in the practice.
Oh man, I have so many things tosay, well, it's what that
reminds me of is I am only taught in the studio at one
point in my well, I used to teach it for follow Yoga Center
and I don't know if that counts,but it doesn't really count in
(04:46):
my mind as a stew of you. So it's a whole retreat center
for instance. But I was teaching in a studio
in Dallas. One point Dow C, Auguste Center
and you know Joe's Yum Center. Okay, so the owner is a very
good friend of mine. Now, David Sunshine had met He's
(05:09):
great. Yeah, yeah, we just him and I
just took a group of people on atour of thousand Dia.
Before the, before I had a yoga teacher training, David met me
down in India and we took a few,we took a group on a tour of
South India, so that's funny. I was teaching it down with Yoga
(05:31):
Center, and I hadn't met David before.
That's how I met him. When he's, like, you have to
come here and teach and Really made it impossible for me to
say, no. So, I went and I was teaching
Yoga Nidra, and I'm just teaching Yoga Nidra, practice
for death, because that was how I learned it.
I learned about it in this way and I remember, he like, called
(05:56):
me and he was like, I don't. I don't know if that's exactly
the approach to take because, you know, people go to Yoga
Nidra and they think relaxation.They want to relax here I am.
Like, that's rapid death. And I don't think it was
relaxing for people. So it was like, maybe you just
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don't mention death in The Yoga Nidra and I was like, well,
that's not authentic. For me, that's not honest.
So I just stopped teaching Yoga Nidra but I was like I'll wait
until I open my own Yoga Center and then I'll teach it through
everyone and I did. So back to what you said, About
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yoga being a practice for death and your teacher saying it was a
practice for death. It's like that's it because yoga
is about Union, right? And it's the union of the
dewdrop meeting the ocean. Basically, the realization of
The truest self and and in orderfor the dewdrop to meet the
(07:06):
ocean, it seems like the Dew Drop path to dissolve into the
truth. Capital-t truth.
And so that dissolving is just another word for it is death.
It's like the small me or the personality, or the ego or
(07:26):
whatever word you want to use the Susan as I know myself
Duvall. And so that's the deck piece in
yoga for sure. It's a practice in every turn of
just like what is that mean? But that's the ultimate goal of
(07:51):
yoga if you ask me. Yeah.
And we don't talk about it, but any but I think Yogi's people
who practice They get it right at least.
If you have a good guy. It along the way I can bring you
back to. This isn't about reinforcing and
identity of a yoga practitioner It's don't forget what you were
(08:18):
doing what we're doing here, andit's not always to feel happy.
I'll talk about pure motive but I'm just going to stop there for
a second and see just kind of check in and see if you had.
Yeah, that's really like how yousaid that, you know, it's not
about reinforcing and identity, but that is a lot of what the
(08:42):
marketing of yoga has become. Because once we figured out how
to make people look hot doing stretches, it's like now that's
what yoga is. And that's what most people
think of what you do get is. And And it is about reinforcing.
I can do a handstand anywhere onthe beach where I can look good
and Warrior 2 and these yoga pants, hide my stomach there.
(09:12):
I've been there like but it's like, hey, we're human.
We're bodies, like let's enjoy That too.
And there's an element of that in the sex part 2 and you know,
it's being human. So we have The Human Experience
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that's kind of my attitude. Like well we're giving these
bodies. Let's like why I just try to get
out of it right away and just disappear.
Like let's enjoy The Human Experience and be present, enjoy
senses and but also not be attached to it, right?
And and not get caught up in that and that's where the
problems happen. But like in the punish odds,
(09:57):
like they talked all about immortality, it's like the
person who does this becomes Immortal and I think what
they're really saying is that essentially, it's a version of
death, like you let go of. So, it doesn't really matter if
I have this job or this relationship, or this much
money. I'm, I'm connected to the ocean,
(10:18):
you know? And not just this to drop
isolated from noses. But it's rien, yoga is
reinforcing that, when we practice in that way, but the
cool thing is, I think you practice even just heavily Asana
based work, yoga and gym. And you'll get there, you'll
(10:39):
experience those elements and you I'd even eventually, you
know, decide you want to just focus on those elements.
So it's like the intention the the root of the practice I think
comes through, no matter like, how people find it to a degree.
I would really love, I love thatand I love to believe that and I
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I'm all for whatever, whatever path does it.
I'm, I'm really open to to whatever works for someone
because it's, you know, like what you're saying.
From an odd nights of a dauntingperspective, like Vedas or
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vedanta. It's like This world and body.
It's just a distraction, right? It's like we're just we just
want our concerned with The thing that does not die The
Immortal, that is just focus on that and don't get so wrapped up
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in all this stuff. And then the classical contract
for perspective, like non-dual shyness Tantra, would say, well,
this is just this all this, likeyou're saying the body.
It's just as much as God as anything else.
It's all God. There is nothing, that is not,
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and there is nothing, that is not sacred and So, how do we use
this body? And how do we use the senses?
And how do we play and not get attached?
And to me, it's so hard. It's a bit.
It's a harder because I practiced in both and I have
(12:30):
studied both and I tell you the tantric approach and I'm talking
about classical taught or not necessarily Neo Tantra right now
but also sure it's just a harderit's like playing with the fire
because it's also Fine and it's harder to not for me.
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It's been a lot harder to not get identified with all the
worldly Delights and and when I can, it's that much more
powerful. It's like, wow, you know, I just
feel how to pull tit my past is really takes off if that's the
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thing, but There's something that I got to mention when we
were talking earlier about there's a teaching in classical
Tantra called Pure motive. Hmm.
And I learned this from a teacher that I had Christopher
Wallace. He's a he's a contract caller.
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And it's just a game changer formy student, for myself this.
These pure motive for practice, it's like, what is the
motivation? Why do we do the same in the in
the first place? And in order to understand why
we do it in the first place, Andunderstand what Pierre motive is
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a easier way to understand. It can be sometimes to
understand what the impure motives are.
And that the impure motives are I practice because I want the
number one is because I want to get better.
I want to get fixed. And then the second woman is I
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practice because I want to be happy.
And then the third one is like practice for myself, my own
personal gain or recognition, oracknowledgement or reinforce
some kind of identity of a practitioner or a good teacher
or whatever it is. These are three impure motives
and I've just go through, I'll go through them.
(14:45):
Super, super briefly that first one.
And let me start by saying, Mmmmm.
If you're a, if those words don't really work, then just
toss them out and use effective and ineffective because that
really all of it is, it's like ajust means ineffective.
It means your practice of the realization.
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Of your truth and who you reallyare.
Just won't be effective if you stay with these Moses.
And so that first motive of, I'mpracticing to get better or to
get fix or to healed. Just isn't effective because
underlying it betrays this subtle. really violent to
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believe that you are broken and I say, I say violent because
it's like, you know, there's something inherently wrong with
me, and I am broken and I am something that needs to be
fixed, and if we stay there and I'll practice without
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motivation, it just won't be effective because it's based on
stand. It's like our whole sand
castles. It's made out of sand because
not true. It's not in line with Reality
Capital. Our reality.
It's not true that you are broken.
Or I am broken. I don't know, fundamental,
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absolute level. We are infinite Eternal and
whole like you were saying, and,and so If we stay in that and
listen who have been like, that's why a lot of people come
to the practice like we were just talking about in the first
place, right? It's like I go to the gym, I go
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to wherever because I just want to be better.
I want to be a better version ofmyself and right on.
I think everybody can relate to that, I can for sure.
I want to feel fucking better. I just want to feel better.
I want to be a better person andand then something happens like
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you're saying if you eventually,you know there's a spark or
something, there's an experienceor you have a good teacher to
guide you along the way and say,okay, now it's time to readjust
your Rudder because if you just keep sailing in that direction
with that belief that you're broken, then the practice won't
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be effective. So the antidote for that is I
practice in the Name of Love. I practice in the Name of Love,
for myself, for all beings for all that is, and it's a very
different motivation for practice and it's a readjusting
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of the rudder. And then for the ineffective or
impure motive of, I practice to be happy.
Like, I just want to be happy. The antidote for that.
One is a practice in the name ofTruth.
Because God knows. This path is not always happy.
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We really bringing happiness, right.
Anybody who's done this work like knows it gets it can get
intense. Yeah and says if you make the
motive okay, I'm not in this to be happy because you know it's
not about being happy all the time comfortable all the time.
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It's about truth. And it's not It's not, there's
nothing wrong with feeling, discomfort, getting out of your
comfort and cellphone. Just setting again your Rudder
or to the truth. And then the third ineffective
motive is I practice to reinforce some identity for
recognition, for power, for to have influence over people, or
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whatever it is, the antidote to that is I practice to be in
service of and of benefit to allbeings.
This practice for the benefit ofall beings and So I can find all
three a motives in my cell and then I just am in this practice
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of really sitting in contemplating pure motive.
And before I teach, I I just saymaybe in the Name of Love truth
and for the benefit of all beings, To just re aligned with
pure motive for practice and I think that teaching can be a
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real game-changer for people like why am I doing this?
And it's just constantly saying it because I want to post a
picture and look good in my opinion you know, bear.
It's fair. It's human and and if it just
stays there, The practice becomes ineffective and flat and
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very one-dimensional. Yes, it's good to ask the
questions of, like, what am I doing here?
Wow. This is really powerful, there's
so much time back in that so much to talk about.
So that information, that's, that's something that is just so
(20:28):
succinct and clear that the lastpiece of just how to put all
that together and bring in the pure motive, love that.
That's something I'm sure. Teachers listening could use as
well and approach their teaching.
So I want to start with the first one.
So the first in pure motive again, just as what is the a
(20:49):
motive again to say that part? Well, a motive is, I practice to
fix myself to be fixed or to getbetter so human how human,
right? Yes.
I mean, There's so many valid reasons people might come to
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practice. Like I've got back pain and my
doctor said I should do or goingthrough grief of a loss of a
spouse or family member and I want to get on my map to process
that. Yes.
So what are you where is the line you think of like?
How you use the practice withoutUsing the practice in a way,
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right? I think it's a constant
Paradise, I think being a human,you know, there's so many things
at least when I teach that seem paradoxical and I always say to
my students, like yeah, because spiritual path.
If we want to call it that is isjust Rife with Paradox because
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it's a paradoxical situation where human beings.
But we're also I mean I believe this you know, obviously it's My
own personal belief, spirit and human bodies and these meat
tubes. So there's, there's definitely
this automatic Paradox with thatand I think the whole thing is
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about one word, it's so simple. It's not easy necessarily but
notice hmm, just notice as much as you can notice.
And in that one word, notice that we that There's so many
Concepts around making making itsound so deep and it really
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awareness, right? Yeah, just notice if you just
noticed, that's it. Yeah.
As much as you can, come back toknow anything.
What are my What are my intentions?
And And then you just decide what are you doing the practice?
For not everyone is doing the practice because they have to
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realize their true nature and that's cool.
Like, you know, everyone's on a different path, the thing that
that's what yoga was designed for.
It's a system of self-realization capital S self.
And so if So the assumption is that people go into yoga for
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that reason, for to realize the self, but not everyone does, and
that's cool. And so, I'm just here for the
people that Are really have a genuine and Ernest aspiration to
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do that. Yeah and and and to notice all
the human things that come up like I am just on the mat
something, I mean, for sure, I'mjust on the mat and all my
cushion some days. All of it but I'm sitting there
bored out of my fucking mind. I'm watching my mind.
Go crazy. It's like I get off the cushion
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and I'm like, dude, that guy I might as well.
Who knows? I did.
It didn't feel like anything washappening.
Something needs to happen, right?
And I do it sometimes just to feel better all of it.
Yeah, and I think the differentiators just to noted,
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just just to be awake to it. Like, I think that is the number
one number one thing, if you're interested in ultimate truth,
then just be awake as much as you can to what the motives are
and have the courage to adjust your Rudder.
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When necessary. There's a couple things I was
reminded of their, like, the Carl Jung psychologists in the
early 1900's. Talked about how he predicted
that the most essential skill inthe 2000s where we are now is be
the ability to tolerate paradox.As the world gets more expanded,
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more connected, more complicated, it's like this, and
like we need to be able to voluntary and like, you can do.
I can't I early physical Asana practice And have a spiritual
experience or be trying to meditate and you have nothing in
this and that could be just like, satisfying your ego of
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like, oh, look, everyone I meditated for 60 days in a row.
Did you? What did you do?
So it's yeah. Indeed the noticing I love that
too. Like, I reminds me of Bruce Lee.
(26:01):
Quote, I think it was we talked about as a teaching martial arts
to people and how a teacher, like, a decent teacher, would
teach you like, how to do a technique and how to do
something and follow them and doit like they do it.
But a great teacher would teach you to in like noticing, you're
experiencing rather than just what you're doing and that's so
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my jam. That's it.
That's it. Jeremy because also Being a
teacher, you know, for me and I started teaching yoga in 2009
and all the different relationships with this word
teacher that I've been through. The relationship has changed
with teacher and it's like, because it can be again, just
(26:45):
another identification and, and,and really becoming and a thing
that is the hindrance on the path.
And And ultimately, what I realize now is, I'm not, there's
nothing to teach. It's about on learning, it's
about an unlearning of everything that we think, we
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know everything. I think, I know all of the
identities, all of the conditionings, all of the
wounds, all of the traumas, all of the things that seemingly
makeup, Susan, unlearning, and the dissolving there.
And so it's like, well then How does somebody teach if there's
(27:28):
nothing to learn. And so that's where self-inquiry
comes in because it feels like the cleanest kind of teaching
for me what meaning the most honest.
Because it's just how do I hold space and facilitate.
(27:50):
The process of people who back into themselves to realize the
answers are already there. There's it's not, I can't give
it to you. No one can give it to you.
You can't learn it in the book. It's not anything that can be
learned or call them outside. It's self-realization, it's
(28:13):
self-inquiry. So the only look at me for the
answers and I don't know mine, it's just about, don't know.
Mind, there's always a question mark, at the end of a end of the
sentence and not a period and because the one that thinks they
(28:34):
know misses the whole thing it'slike missing reality because I
know, I already know that's a tree.
That's I walk around and retrieve.
Bush Lake flower, I know. and and it's a different way to walk
through the world and to just Open mind, I call it soft brain.
(29:03):
To let things in and experience reality directly as most of us
experience reality through our we are over mine.
We need our own mind, our own stories.
Yeah, yeah. The inquiry is in a lot of ways
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of the most valuable work that I've done.
I've been a lot of trainings andpersonal work and things like
this, and If I had just like, listen to the lectures or taking
in the words or the training, it's valuable.
But when I've given exercises orinquiry or processes to go
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within, that is all the sort of stages of growth or levels of
realization or a new insights. That's really where it comes
from and like the biggest changes in my life or the
biggest, you know, letting go orTransformations, you know, that
that is coming through the slide, Yaya the self-study,
(30:09):
self-inquiry, kind of work and there's no, no one can do that
for me, like they say, like, your your personal trainer can
do your push-ups for you, right?So that and that's like can't
just scroll through social mediaand get this.
Like you have to actually go within.
(30:30):
And I love that. You teach that.
But I do think that is where thereal work happens.
He and the yoga mat to as also, like doing the practices but
that's more like body and spirit.
But then for the mind, the journaling, the writing the
inquiry, the way you can untangle a lot of that stuff.
(30:52):
And then then you can see I likethis other quote.
This end quote from Alan Watts of like when I was first, On my
spiritual path, mountains are mountains.
And the ocean was the ocean. And after a, while the mountains
weren't just the mountains anymore, and the ocean was not
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just the ocean, and then after another, while the mountains
mountains and the ocean is the ocean.
Since like we kind of go throughthis cycle of, oh my gosh.
And then those realizations and then it's like, okay, I'm just
being and it's nothing to reallyget to, but we do.
I think on this virtual paths toreally Connect to this part of
(31:35):
ourselves. We do need to go through that
deep inquiry and realizations. Like uncover these things stop
destroying relationships, stop ruining self-destructing, making
bad choices, hurting ourselves, starting, and others.
Sometimes we have to go really deep into that to realize that
(31:56):
make those mistakes. But but yeah, then we can have a
sort of freedom and like, play and joy.
And I think there's a Getting back to the childlike, curiosity
is a big part of my motivation to practice that sort of all
about life. So like look at a tree with our
look at flowers with awe, which I think people go to
(32:21):
psychedelics and drugs for that,which is great.
Like, I can get you there but it's more of a state like for a
moment or maybe a day or so. But I think the yoga practice is
like A continual psychedelic experience where you can denied
state sustainably and, like, access it sustainably, right?
(32:44):
Probably yeah, all very well said right on.
Yeah, that that's it. It's like there's just an
unfolding happening like life. It's just happening and meaning
pasts are unfolding and there's no wrong path.
(33:08):
I just I trust reality. So somebody else is past might
not look like mine. It's theirs.
Yes, it's theirs. And I don't know, but we, it's
like, I think I know, right? I mean if you just look at
social media and you look it, everyone knows the answers for
(33:30):
everybody else, it's like and I understand it, it's like
something works for me. And then I know for sure, this
is what everyone needs to do andthis will work for you and I
just noticed it doesn't work that way, and the dignity just
(33:52):
trusting life and giving everyone the Dignity of their
own path, and because that's reality, anyway, I have no idea.
And reason I bring that up is because Of what you what you
said like. You go through this process or
you go through the mountains andmount are mountains and their
(34:17):
Rivers River. Because I think about my own
life and I think about like, Specifically.
I know that there was a lot of years there where I was just
doing Meditation Retreat after Meditation, Retreat after
Meditation Retreat. And I got to this place where I
was like, oh yeah, I get it, I get it.
(34:40):
I'm so evolved like nothing bothers me, you know, oh my
gosh. And I just thought I had it all
figured out. And, and then I found the
teacher who Wasn't meant for me and just it was like a slap in
the face. It was a lot of psycho-spiritual
(35:02):
War, which is about getting involved in this story of
things. Instead of like I'm just going
to sit here and it's not and it's not real.
Anyway, you know, it's all an illusion and I'm just gonna sit
here and meditate and, and then I had my path changed and it was
like, whoa, I got a teacher. It was just like, yeah, look,
(35:25):
why don't you look a little deeper?
a look underneath the rug and and it was shocking for me and
And I look back at those times in my past, however, and
realized like the wisdom of it, I mean, I don't beat myself up
for it and just imagine that I should have known things that I
(35:45):
didn't know, because that's Insanity, like, what's the
reality people know? What they know when they, you
know, it. And so, It was it's just a good
lesson for me, like, oh, I and Iimagine that there's plenty of
things that I don't see. Now the blind spots that I don't
(36:08):
want to see and it's okay. And I just trust like the wisdom
of the psyche to reveal itself and I trust my practice and I
trust the unfolding and the ripening and because of that, I
trust other people. You know, I trust other people
to know what is Right for them like also my drinking days you
(36:29):
know I used to drink, I don't drink anymore but I used to
drink like self-destructing frommany years and people would look
at like a drunk on the street passed out on the street or
something. Be like oh this person is on the
wrong path. and it's like, is ittrue are path?
(36:55):
Yes. Yeah, that's what I love about
Vedic astrology that I do is. It's just so clear.
If Like especially if you look at like people who are very
opinionated on like politics andstuff like that you can see in
the chart. Of course, they would think that
way. And of course they're going to
feel their way is literally justand true and and then the other
(37:17):
the other side is like of course, they're going to think
that way And of course, you know, you look at other charts
and I do readings. It's like, it makes sense to
would go through this experienceor you would.
This is just like, part of your path and it's perfect and okay,
you know, it's such an illusion that we have like everything
should be happy or good, or positive or, and we just don't
(37:42):
show the -, as much, or we do. It's more like traumatized and
movies or Media or stuff like that, everybody Struggles
everybody goes through depression.
I've gone through depression. I have struggles still like all
these years of practice you knowand yeah me too.
Anybody who says they don't is just trying, you know it's just
(38:06):
it's just a lie. I don't believe it, I don't buy
it, you know. But maybe you know maybe I'm
wrong. You know, maybe this thing's I'd
open to that but I also just want to not perpetuate any
illusion that like I have it allfigured out I know what I'm
doing. I'm a student on the path and
(38:27):
just sharing my experience and Ithink you are too.
I think that's what makes a great teacher to and the
teachers, I've resonated with are more authentic in that path
and there are ups and downs to, and not trying to be something.
They're not be perceived a certain way and people always
just fall. No, just the last 10 years like
(38:48):
all the all the items that fall in, you know, basically and you
have the world. So yeah and I had guru-guru that
also fell and what again like I just like was very kind in my
(39:13):
experience it doesn't know what's feel that way, right?
Like what I see I see now how itwas just It was here for me.
It was so hard when it happened because Guru relationship is
hard to explain for people who haven't experienced.
(39:35):
It will, at least for me, it was, you know, Very deep and
sacred, and all of those things.And then this happens and it
called everything into question.Everything, I thought I knew and
whatever, we because it just woke me up.
(39:57):
No one coming to do this for you.
You know, this is your job. It's not anybody else's job and
it revealed this codependency and if I hadn't, you know, who
knows how long I would have beenlost in that thing.
And so I feel like the world is here to wake me up and sometimes
(40:20):
the lesson just takes a little bit longer for me for my body to
catch up to so that like Sometimes it hurts and I don't
want to. see how it's happening for me and not to me but
eventually It's revealed. It's very clear now, why those
(40:43):
things happen? So Ry that and staying in
particular happens. Right.
I have a friend, a couple going through a breakup like they were
on the path of they were proposed The Mitten engaged and
then married have babies and their had.
This whole thing about their house together and and they
(41:05):
realized it wasn't true to them anymore, like they were just
moments away from the wedding and and it's been as big
unraveling and everything and Basic best talking with friends,
with both of them, still do? You know, it's all is basically,
the it's just, what is true, that's what they are orienting
(41:26):
towards. Not like, oh the pain, the loss.
It's like actually isn't true anymore and it was true to get
to this point and grateful for it.
And this is what we got from it and and then they're going their
separate ways dissolving all that and it's painful and
talking to her about it. It's like, basically, this is Is
(41:47):
the price to be in your truth. The price of letting go of the
place letting go of the identity, the division of the
mother not easy as they're both gone through a lot.
But also it's a couldn't just continue on to avoid the pain
and just pretend like it was true.
(42:09):
And that is a place where sometimes no practices work and
no, no one can really save you. Like you talked about friends
could talk to teachers. Yeah, and the It's just like got
you got to go within and you gotto connect to, you got to just
(42:33):
be in it in a way. Like even doing practices might
not be the thing that, you know,it's just got to be in it for a
while. Yeah, which could be the
practice in and of itself. I mean what you're taught, what
you're saying the thing that reverberates through my whole
(42:53):
body is courage, the kind of Courage that that takes and I
just, My hat is off to your friends.
Yeah, that's powerful. That kind of Courage.
(43:14):
Yes. Yeah.
And that's what yoga sex and death is about.
Right. And so that's it.
Exactly that and you know, I have, I have friends that were
taking it that are like it's just going to make our
relationship better because we're in a, you know, people
(43:37):
want guarantees, they want like just I'm going in this and they
have agendas and it's like it just doesn't work like that.
Like yoga second just doesn't work like that.
And it's the hard fucking thing to Market because of that
because people want to hear we're going to fix you.
(43:59):
But we've already established like there's nothing to fix
because you're not broken. I mean if you want to get closer
to what the truth, Is for you, that's it.
That it does that it does, whichleads to Peace.
(44:20):
Self-trust power, personal power, freedom.
I mean, Radiance all of the things.
But it just that courage to see the truth.
It necessitates that courage, you know, right?
(44:40):
Yeah, and in all three of those things like you can't fake it.
You they have to go deep within it.
Have to be courageous with yourself of you have to be
vulnerable. I mean, you don't have to do
anything, you don't have to you can you could not do those
(45:01):
things but it's all going to be a lot more painful and a lot
more suffering. That's been my experience.
I do want to, so he kind of wenta long way with just that first
one going back to the. So, the real antidote to that
(45:25):
the intention of love, right? Is that the way to work with,
that's what you said, right? The antidote.
Yeah. For the for the impure motive
of, I'm is something to fix or that I'm broken.
The antidote for that is love. I'm, I am loved.
I could never not be loud and I practice in the name of that
(45:46):
love and celebration for myself.And I get It's just, these are
just little guideposts, you know, like you just remind
yourself and notice and keep noticing where you're at and
then just a little guideposts and the second and then the
second one, which you just brought up the a motive of I
(46:07):
practice to be happy and like your friends, they weren't they
weren't there. They're not in it, they're not
in relationship. It's not like they're not as new
life just to be happy. Like They have a motive for
truth. Yeah, the pewter motive for
truth and it doesn't mean not always being happy.
(46:31):
Exact. You just gave the perfect
example for that. And in a way you could say,
like, it's like the Law of Attraction people work with you,
be the thing rather than need something to be that thing,
right? Be happy to practice and in fact
us to be happy, right? All right.
(46:55):
Or you be happy. You choose like to find the
truth and have like, fine, you are connected with truth.
There is a happiness and joy in that, right?
That that's that Paradox, right?The parrot, the Paradox is I
mean, generally speaking when I am resting in that truth,
(47:19):
there's happiness comes some peace.
And freedom come and it might bea different kind of peaceful
thing and then you've been conditioned to experience your
whole life. Like we get used to that
sensation, a hit of our Spike orsome kind of pink, some kind of
(47:42):
instant and that, that's what happiness is.
But this is a different kind of this is Sitting in truth.
It's just like, happiness, not dependent upon any external
situation, or object. And yeah.
(48:06):
So I'm going to repeat third one.
Yes. Okay.
And then if everyone was practicing the a motive is
practicing to gain the recognition or to reinforce an
identity to gain power and influence over other people just
(48:28):
to its, you know, this is the one I call spiritual ego. man, I
just feel like for myself, I mean, I practiced on myself
number one, always first and foremost.
So all of these conclusions thatI'm talking about are just
because I've seen them in myselfthe subtlety of the spiritual
(48:53):
one, you know, the spiritual ego, that spiritual identity.
And I've lived in spiritual communities now.
For, I don't know, 13 years and it's just my friends, my close
friends. We all can see it in each other.
You know, this like spiritual identity and I'm because I'm a
(49:16):
spiritual person, or I'm a good person.
And this is what a good, you know, very subtle.
And I think it's the one of the biggest obstacles.
On the spiritual path. That is the test to see because
it's done in the name of righteousness because I am this
(49:39):
is I'm just trying to be right and good and so I hope I got to
hold on to these things. It's such a blind spot.
Yeah. And I think that's part of what
created the, I mean, there's a lot of elements to this, but the
(50:00):
guru kind of role in, in the yogic practice giving away
Authority and power to her seat in the front of the room.
Tell me what to do, tell me how to live.
Yes, but wait a minute, who is this person?
What are they doing? When you're not, when they're
(50:20):
not on that cushion, in the front of the room?
Why do I get my power to them? Right?
What am I doing? Why am I doing this?
Why is why am I doing this? You know, which is what the
right live for when that happensmy group was like, what's that
about? Where did the idea come from
inside of me? Outsourcing my own authority.
(50:44):
What if I just get really interested about why right?
Right, and usually doesn't end well.
Let me do that. Yeah, it is there's an element
(51:04):
of that like we I'll see for myself of like growing up
without a father and difficult childhood and all this just
wanting Direction wanting answers and like wanting some
sort of meaning and guidance. So finding spiritual teachers
what philosophers first and spiritual teachers.
(51:26):
Doctor is very helpful to me, and give me a lot of guys, in
finding my teacher, who is very fortunate.
My first major teacher, my table, I think just continually
like, would not let me in my heart.
Yeah, yeah answers. Like, we tell me about this and
he's like, well, I think, you know, I was like, that's not the
(51:46):
right answer, right? That.
So grateful, like you never tookmy power like I tried to give
it. Him right?
Right. And some teachers will accept
that and then tell you everything go well in the long
night. So I think there is less and
(52:09):
less of that now and more of like this kind of post lineage
World. We're in now is Teachers where
we are guides, we are Fingers pointing at the moon or not the
moon. And don't look at me look over
there. Look within notice, pay
(52:29):
attention, ask questions. But yeah, I kind of now recoil
the more, the more spiritual somebody is on the surface.
That's great for you. I'm gonna, you know, My
spiritual practice might just besitting in on the floor, looking
(52:50):
into space or a couple for a while.
Yeah, right, right. Don't need them all.
They really do need the munchersnecessarily, you know, right.
You know, that's that's what I go back to like, the drunk
passed out on the floor or whatever, that somehow that's
not a spiritual path. I mean, if we just open up our
(53:11):
minds a little bit, it's like How could anything not be like?
It's just it's reality. And I mean reality is God for
me. So it's just as wise, there's no
(53:33):
Just because who's to say, it's but the but the eye comes in,
but I know for sure that that isnot the way and that things
should be like this and said andI mean, that's the one who
centers themselves, like the whole world from that one
perspective egocentric, you know.
(53:57):
Yeah, now make the sufis have a lot of great poems about being
drunk on God. Using alcohol as a metaphor.
Yeah. Yes, right.
There's an open mind right there.
That, that's it. It's like, where does the brain
goat? Where does the mind to go?
Yeah, it's drunk. What is it even any way I could
(54:18):
go? I could riff here for a long
time because that's what I do mean.
That's that's Health inquiry. Yeah.
Don't know, don't know, I don't know.
And I mean, and don't get me wrong.
I definitely have opinions and beliefs about the way things
(54:39):
should be. And and then I just kind of, you
know after a while it's like thework is in lot alive in you and
it just immediately as followed with.
Is it true? Everything.
There's just kind of is it true?The work of Byron Katie is
something that we do in the retreat.
I don't know if you're familiar.With the work Byron.
(54:59):
Katie So I, I used to do for many years.
I was studying yan'an, yoga, jnanatma, like Ramana maharshi,
who am? I atma-vichara kind of
self-inquiry and like, who am I?That's, that's Autumn of achara.
That's self-inquiry. Is just asking the question.
(55:20):
Who am I? What am I?
Whenever World works And then I came to the work of iron Katie.
It was like, oh my gosh, this isthis is our mother Chara.
This is Ask just sitting in, after asking the question, who
am I, but with a little bit moreof a spin to it for more modern
(55:40):
dance mind? Yes.
So me, I see it through that lens because that was gonna yoga
and yoga on yoga. I see it through the lens of a
Yanni, right? The work of Byron Katie.
And that's just my jam that for me, is the so direct.
(56:06):
And its really good for relational, stuff with yoga is
not really actual Yoga practicesand stuff is all very much.
Colonel in very much personal. So how do we manage the
interpersonal in like her? The work process for anyone
listening, you can just Google the work and PDF you'll get the
(56:27):
whole process is very simple. But yeah very deep and look it
does really help to have someoneguide you in facilitate you
through it too, but it's so goodwith like you're judging someone
and you're triggered by someone relational.
Like that was her. I felt an apt for after years of
(56:49):
yogurt training like relationships, kind of gotten
worse because I was like, well Iknow how to handle this, I'll
just meditate. It's like right progressing.
The other person and the impact and the relationship, right?
Yes, yes. May I work going?
(57:14):
Well no. That sounds a lot like my path
also very similar. And then I, you know, okay,
well, how do we do this in an ina body in an embodied way with
their bodies and how does all this translate into
relationships and relating and that's, that's Then the
(57:37):
exploration that was and it still continues to be an
exploration. But then that was the sex part,
right? It's like, how do I take all
this yoga stuff and bring it into?
So it's yoga Sex and Death isn'tabout sex, like, let's figure
out how to have good orgasms, right?
(57:58):
It's like it's about intimacy and letting go and add that
applies to relating and and sensuality and sexuality.
Reality. And what are the things that are
blocking me from? Having the things that I say
that I want and intimacy and asking yourself questions about
(58:19):
what's really happening inside of myself and doing it in a
relational way. that's, Really what it's about, of course, it's
a corset office on all the bodies, right?
All the different levels of physical, the energetic, the
emotional, the mental spiritual and so there's practices for
(58:42):
every level. So we do work on the energy body
moving energy in the practice oflovemaking and sexuality, but
it's not. That's not the it's not a period
at the end of the sentence with that, right?
It's like yes and There's also emotional stuff to look at.
(59:03):
So we do Shadow work to go into the blind spot emotionally, the
things that we don't want to feel.
We've been Hiding from ourselves, there's specific
exercises that we do to to just kind of ask questions for you,
for things to be revealed on an emotional level.
(59:26):
And then there's the energetic component and there's the mental
and spiritual levels of inquiry because in create is very
mental, and also it leaves you, it can leave you without a
story. And then who are you without
your story? I mean, God.
(59:50):
Yeah. You know, the realization of
truth, right? We're so glad that you're
teaching this from this broader perspective because the
sexuality is something that was not ever talked about my first
few years of yoga studies. And I think that's part of why I
(01:00:15):
become such a shadow issue with yoga teachers, particularly the
male Guru, kind of teachers. Would you find out or doing all
these sexual things that they'vehidden and suppressed secret of?
Meetings. And What if there was just a
dialogue about it, what if thereis actually a covert
(01:00:36):
communication about what your sexuality is, or what they're
wanting is and know they're signing up for or not and choose
you know, and but there's so much can power an Amex with that
that I think of I've lost a lot of their power in society.
(01:00:57):
The less of these, I grew kind of figures to abuse the power
But I love that you are teachingthis because it needs to be
talked about. Like, we can't just pretend
we're not sexual beings unless you actually are going to be
celibate. Great, but then actually be
solid and and do that and if you're not going to then stop
(01:01:18):
and tell people, you know, and just be a fund.
It where the sexuality is in your teachings or not?
It's not something in my teachings, but I am a sexual
being. I've done a lot of work in
sexual, Myself. But I have basically kept it
kind of separate from my yoga world and experience but still
doing that deeper work. And as in male, I've struggled
(01:01:44):
with like, how to integrate those two things, and this is
maybe like a whole other episodewith you about just that but my
God, we should do it the have a lot to say.
Yeah. Yeah, me too.
I think it's an important topic because if we don't talk about
it, it becomes hidden, represseddenied, and then exaggerate it
(01:02:09):
and then blows things up and becomes this big Shadow.
So, it's something I've done a lot of work on integrating in
myself. But I just for me, I have found
like there's my yoga teaching which is kind of Sacred Space
for practice, but then, As my own human sexual experience and
(01:02:31):
sexual spiritual experience as well that I've done in other
contexts. But to bring them together as a
male has been something. I've been like, you know, it's a
longer conversation that we could have for sure about that.
I'm curious like your experienceof doing this work and you know
in teaching this to women are doyou teach men as well?
(01:02:53):
Or have you worked with men in this?
Like how do you navigate all these things I'm sharing.
So good. I just really a want to
acknowledge that. courage and sharing your own experience,
(01:03:14):
vulnerability that that takes, you know, Not an easy thing to
do. and just as you said, because we have this idea that
it shouldn't be talked about, I don't something shameful about
it and it just perpetuates the perpetuates this division
(01:03:40):
between myself as a sexual beingand my yoga practice So, I just
appreciate your candor and I think there's a lot of guys that
will benefit. From just you saying what you
said and any kind of conversation that you have on
(01:04:02):
this podcast around us. So I when I started out doing
these teachings, I'm kind of a story Jeremy.
But yeah, I was eating then. andthen I, and then It became clear
to me that there was stuff in myown.
(01:04:27):
Personal story that had not beenintegrated and healed. having to
do with the masculine, my own inner masculine and so, I
stopped as I just said, I'm not.I've got to do my own work.
I think I need to spend some time in my own work.
(01:04:50):
And we have been teaching women,primarily yoga Sex, and Death
was only open to women until last year. and for the first
time I'm, I started, I brought men in and I had a male
facilitator, and Keith And we just took just to test it out
(01:05:14):
and see how that worked. I just really.
Have such compassion. for these guys that showed up and Feel
(01:05:35):
s'more I feel stronger than everthat.
There needs to be a space, a space for men to be able to have
these conversations with each other.
It's for sure. I can tell you it's very
different when it's a mixed energy.
When there's women and men in the room because we would
separate like the guys would go with Keith sometimes and do
(01:05:57):
their their work and the women would go with me sometimes, and
then you bring everyone together.
And it's just such a different face energetically.
So to me, that means we need those spaces for men to be with
men for women to be with women. and also is for us to come
(01:06:21):
together and even though it might be a little bit, more
uncomfortable, and maybe not foreveryone, but It's so valuable
to have those conversations together, but they are different
conversations. They go very differently when
(01:06:43):
everyone's together so I do That's where I'm at was working
with men. It's, I'm introducing it back
into my, into my life after a lot of years of just being in my
own work and now feeling, okay, I'm ready.
(01:07:05):
And I'm, I'm constantly asking myself.
Are you are you? Are you?
Are you sure? And like, are you ready?
You know, Because we took the teachers as humans project all
of our own down to other people.and though, I'd for me, it's
(01:07:27):
just so important to be in my own work and be clear internally
as clear as I can be. Yeah.
Yeah, it was so relieving to me years ago, to find men's groups
to talk about these things just to talk about.
And I it is something I want to create more to.
(01:07:52):
I think there's a big need for it and a lot of sort of
confusion or difficulty around like, you know, the inquiry of
what does it mean to be a man inmodern society?
And with all the societal changes that have happened
(01:08:12):
around like gender roles and things like this and the last
couple decades And what does it mean to be carried to safety and
sexuality for men? It's such a deep inquiry.
So I love that you're offering this work and it is a space that
you're creating to do that work.It's much needed.
(01:08:35):
And I think there's II know women needed to of.
I see a lot of women doing that.I see that there's more spaces
for that, right? Yes.
And there's a great need for themen and also then come together
and that's even more vulnerable,more courageous more powerful
(01:08:59):
work too. So I love that you're offering
it and I think we'll have another longer conversation just
on that because it's such a deeptopic.
Yeah, that's it's it's a, it's amazing offering that you're
doing and you this, the current iteration Like a self-paced and
there's like a retreat or something.
(01:09:20):
Yeah so there's three different formats you can do it online.
Self-paced self-paced that's theother Sex and Death Basics, so
it's Basics. There's no self inquiry in that
one, but it's just the basic concepts of what yoga sex and
death is about. And then I, we do it in a six
week course. In person in Los Angeles, Lucy,
(01:09:42):
who's been doing work with me for five years now has As
trained to also, facilitate yogaSex and Death, she teaches it in
Los Angeles, six week course. And that's it's one day a week
all day for six weeks. And then the in-person retreat
which is what I'm teaching. It's an intensive.
(01:10:08):
And we go from Saturday to Saturday or a whole week.
Take the next one is in Novemberand that does include men.
The co-ed is in November. So you know, all you guys out
there, if you're up for it, thisis the thing.
I'm I'm not sure if it if there is a demand.
(01:10:30):
Like I feel like there is a demand intern like guys wanted
it. But also it's scary and it's all
new the spaces for men to talk about sexuality.
And so it takes a lot of overcoming.
I'm going to say trauma response.
(01:10:53):
To actually say yes and sign up to do something like this, but
there are guys that do it that do and here for it.
So this is one of the connectingpieces between yoga sexuality
and yoga. We become very intimate with our
body like you know, just that body awareness where most of us
(01:11:16):
have spent so much time, disconnected or associated.
From the actual felt sense of emotion and our bodies or
Sensations in our bodies and yoga is about cultivating that
body awareness which you're doing when you practice and then
also an intimacy with the breath.
(01:11:38):
You learn to practice your breathing and how it's connected
to the physical body and how thebreath is connected to the
energy body in your practice. And so, all of that is what
happens when we make love with another person, right?
So, it's really Impossible for it, not to Bill over your yoga,
(01:12:05):
practice into your practice of lovemaking or sexuality.
It just all goes together, just becomes now, how do I
consciously take all of these things.
I've discovered this intimacy that I've found when my body, my
breath, my energy. My emotions and bring it now
into this sphere. Consciously work with my breath
(01:12:28):
and move energy. Or deeper connection with
another. It's like, you know, you start
with yourself that deep Connection in that deep intimacy
here, and then in the act of lovemaking, it's just about
expanding that field that you'vealready created within yourself.
Now it expands to include another.
(01:12:51):
So I imagine that you have had some of that, you know,
crossover and yeah, it happens. Yeah.
Yeah, it's it's not that different really, it's more
intimate. You can be with yourself the
more intimate you can be with your partner.
(01:13:15):
And they go together really well.
So glad that you're, you're bringing them together and your
teachings, you're offering And so that just to clarify for
anyone listening later is, is 2023, this fall, that's the
in-person event. But your website where people
can find out more about offers what's the website.
(01:13:38):
The website is Summer Raza, center.com, that's essay and a
are a sa ve NT, ER, doc cam Centre, great an on-demand
version. In is available anytime.
Yes, you can find it on the website, you go to summarize the
(01:13:59):
center.com and you have an option for ysd basic there,
which is the on demand and also,the in-person retreat possible.
Yeah, I think we got a lot more to talk about very soon, so I'd
love to continue the conversation that's been really
great having you here. Great for me too.
(01:14:22):
Thanks, thanks for having me on Jeremy.
Thank you for the opportunity and just saying, I want to say
hi to all your people and yeah. It's been fun.
Some good conversation. Yeah, yeah.
I feel like there's so much moreI want to see right now, to
leave it like a cliffhanger. It's like, yeah, it's good time
(01:14:43):
part 2. There's just so much in these
topics. So thank you for having the
courage to create this and offerthis and look forward to talking
to you again soon. Well too.
Okay. Great.
Stop the recording there. Okay, cool.
(01:15:04):
Awesome. Yeah.
Fine. I get that from there.
Yeah. And I'm happy to continue it
whenever you want as a good, I like the male perspective.
I think it's the Busey. I think people like to hear it
and I think it's the juicy conversation.
Yes, for sure. You is that guy facilitating
(01:15:30):
with you at this next one, too, because you're going to do the
co-ed stuff still. I have one coming in June to get
to all women and then I have another one coming in November
and that will be the co-ed and IIt's between how to to guy
friends that were just teachers that do similar work than I'm
(01:15:57):
doing and I'm just trying to figure out which, which one
Keith is amazing. Keith is great.
And you can he's living in Boulder.
And his last name is McGinnis, ET the teacher there if you want
to look him up. Also, That's authentic relating.
(01:16:20):
He's a teacher of authentic relating and does a lot with
sexuality in Boulder open. Open Institute, okay.
It's great. I wasn't sure on your website.
(01:16:44):
I think I looked but it's not clear like how sexual the event
gets are the retreat. Yeah.
Well I'm glad you asked clarify that on the site.
Yeah, right. It's not there's no one having
just so you know and there's no one we're not having sex
(01:17:07):
together. There's no nudity, it's nothing
like that. It's just mainly looking at our
sexual shadows and and we do that through self-inquiry and we
do it through different inquiry exercises.
Yeah. So there's no, it's more of a
mental emotional. Work.
(01:17:32):
Back there. I think that could help create
safety for everybody just that very early on the site
somewhere. Yeah, true.
Because we do get that questionson the time so that's a good
vote. I'll will put that on the
website. Yeah.
Cool. So yeah, whenever like you're
(01:17:55):
getting closer to promotion or something that would be a good
time to do a next interview. Yeah, that would be great.
How long does it take you to putthe like after we record it?
How long does it take you to then put it out?
You can be pretty fast. Like this one of do probably
today, or tomorrow actually. Oh, amazing.
(01:18:19):
Cool. So yeah, usually it's pretty
fast. Sometimes it might be a couple
weeks but right now this is next.
So, okay cool. I forgot I have another call.
Wow, that went so fast. Okay, 11:30.
Okay, okay. So yeah, usually it's pretty
fast. Sometimes it might be a couple
weeks but right now this is next.
So, okay cool. I forgot I have another call.
Wow, that went so fast. Okay, 11:30.
Okay, okay.