June 14, 2023 • 40 mins
Discover the power of psychological principles in marketing as we chat with Nancy Harhut, author of "Using Behavioral Science in Marketing." Uncover why C-suite executives are recognizing the immense potential of incorporating behavioral science into their strategies and how you can stay ahead of the curve.
From leveraging the magnetic middle to exploring choice architecture, we discuss practical ways to tap into the hardwired behaviors and decision-making processes of your customers. By utilizing persuasive language, you'll learn how to craft content that captures your audience's attention and drives them to engage with your brand. Plus, hear about my experience using choice architecture to boost conversions significantly.
As the future of artificial intelligence continues to intersect with behavioral science, Nancy sheds light on how AI can enhance your marketing efforts. We delve into the use of AI for crafting compelling copy while stressing the importance of human interaction in closing sales. Don't miss this enlightening conversation with expert Nancy Harhut and elevate your marketing game by harnessing the power of behavioral science.
Guest Links
- Nancy's Company HBT Marketing: https://www.hbtmktg.com/
- Buy Using Behavioral Science in Marketing on Amazon: https://amzn.to/4617E3n [affiliate]
- Connect with Nancy on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nancyharhut
Learn More:
- Buy Digital Threads: https://nealschaffer.com/digitalthreadsamazon
- Buy Maximizing LinkedIn for Business Growth: https://nealschaffer.com/maximizinglinkedinamazon
- Join My Digital First Mastermind: https://nealschaffer.com/membership/
- Learn about My Fractional CMO Consulting Services: https://nealschaffer.com/cmo
- Download My Free Ebooks Here: https://nealschaffer.com/books/
- Subscribe to my YouTube Channel: https://youtube.com/nealschaffer
- All My Podcast Show Notes: https://podcast.nealschaffer.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Have you ever thought about the convergence of
psychology and marketing?
Is there a way that we canleverage psychology, or the way
that people behave, to get themto better engage with us and buy
more from us?
Actually, there is a way to usebehavioral science in marketing
(00:21):
, and today I have the world'sforemost expert on that very
subject that I'm going tointerview on this next episode
of the your digital marketingcoach podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Good thing you've got Neil on your side, because Neil
Schaefer is your digitalmarketing coach.
Helping you grow your businesswith digital first marketing,
one episode at a time.
This is your digital marketingcoach and this is Neil Schaefer.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Hey everybody, this is Neil Schaefer and I am your
digital marketing coach.
Today's special guest issomeone that hired the
opportunity to meet at ContentMarketing World last year, but
as I bought her book at thebookstore there.
Her book is called LiterallyUsing Behavioral Science in
(01:43):
Marketing, drive Customer Actionand Loyalty by Prompting
Instinctive Responses.
And hearing about all theamazing places she was speaking,
including Content MarketingWorld, i'm like Nancy I got to
get you on my podcast.
Please accept my invite becauseI know what you have to share
is going to be powerful for mylisteners.
(02:03):
That is the backstory betweenhow I know Nancy and her
appearance on today's podcast.
So we talk about a lot ofthings.
I know behavioral science.
It sounds like this veryesoteric and potentially even
boring subject.
I guarantee you it's excitingwhen you understand the
potential once you tap into itUnderstanding how your customers
(02:27):
and prospects really makedecisions, finding easy ways to
trigger automatic, hardwiredbehaviors, the best phrases and
frames to increase engagementand response These are the types
of things that we talk aboutthat I think you are going to
find intriguing and powerful andapplicable to your business.
So, without further ado, hereis my interview with Nancy
(02:50):
Harhout, the author of UsingBehavioral Science in Marketing.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
You're listening to your digital marketing coach.
This is Neil Schaefer.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Nancy Harhout, welcome to the Digital Marketing
Coach podcast.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Neil, thank you so much.
I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
It was an honor to have met you in person at
Content Marketing World Man Iwant to say recently, but it's
already been six months.
We're already getting ready forthe next one, but it was really
great to see your new bookUsing Behavioral Science in
Marketing.
In marketing, we always saythat it's part science, part art
and therefore today I thinkwe're going to focus a lot on
(03:30):
the science part.
But as we were talkingbeforehand, nancy, you said that
you are a marketer with a focuson behavioral science.
I'd like to understand what gotyou into both marketing and
behavioral science and seeinghow the two fit together, nancy,
Harhout.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
All right, that's a great question.
So what got me into marketingwas I always like to write and
I'm a copywriter by trade, but Ialways like to write And early
on I thought that you had twooptions You either be the great
American novelist, and thatwasn't going to happen, or you'd
be a journalist.
So I went to Boston University,i studied journalism and I was
doing fine, neil.
But I looked around going intomy senior year and I realized
(04:06):
that some of my peers werereally good.
Like they had the fire in theirbelly, They had no problem
taking a microphone, shoving itin someone's face and saying,
hey, that's your house burningdown, how do you feel?
And I didn't have that.
So I said, all right, i'll begood, but I'm never going to be
great.
So I scrambled my senior yearand I took anything else that
involved writing that I couldfind There was corporate
communications and publicrelations and advertising And I
(04:28):
eventually found my way intoadvertising and never looked
back.
And then, somewhere along thecourse of my career, i read a
book by Robert Cialdini calledInfluence the Psychology of
Persuasion, and it waseye-opening for me And that's
what sent me down the rabbithole of behavioral science.
I just started studying it andapplying it and working more and
(04:50):
more with it, and the rest ishistory, as they say.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah, that book influenced pun intended so many
people.
It is still one of the.
There is not a book that hasreplaced it, and it's been
around for what 20 years?
I want to say.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Yeah, yeah, Cialdini just updated and reissued a
second edition, which is it'sgot to be another 100 pages
longer or something.
I have it.
I'm not through with it yet,though, but it's fabulous Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah, i've yet to read the revised version either.
So influence and obviously thepsychology of persuasion, and
therefore I think we get intothe psychology.
So, since reading that book,what sort of work have you done
in the field of sort ofintegrating that into marketing?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
So, you know, I started like kind of small scale
.
So I was reading the book, andreading anything I get my hands
on, and so I started to apply,you know, the different things I
was reading.
I'd read something, i'dunderline, make a margin note.
I'd be thinking about the workthat I was doing for my various
clients.
I'd be like, ooh, this mightwork to solve that problem, or I
should try this with, you know,with this other problem.
And as I started to test thesedifferent approaches, these
(05:53):
different tactics, i wasstarting to see the results.
And the more I saw the results,you know, the more I wanted to
use these.
And so I just, you know, i justbegan to kind of integrate it
into the way that I did business.
So it wasn't just marketingbest practices, but it was
marketing best practices plusthe use of behavioral science.
And one good example is I wasdoing some work for a company
(06:15):
that sold insurance to Dentist.
So I know I just lost all ofyour listeners there.
It's like Dentist insurance, ah, but stick with me because this
is actually kind of interesting.
But you know, the thing aboutgetting someone to buy insurance
is, you know, nobody wants tobuy it, And if you can get them
to buy it.
They've checked off the listand they don't ever want to
return to that decision.
They were like I crossed it offmy list.
(06:35):
You know, i'm done with that.
And the thing about insuranceis you should really update it
every couple of years justbecause things in life change
You get married, you havechildren, your practice grows,
you're making more money, you'regetting closer to retirement,
whatever it is.
You know you really shouldcheck it.
But so they were trying to sendthese Dentist messages saying,
hey, it's probably time that youtook another look, maybe it's
time to increase your policy.
And it was crickets.
(06:56):
They weren't getting anywhere.
So I had read something aboutthe pull of the magnetic middle
which basically said that youknow, for the most part humans,
we don't like to be out on thebleeding edge.
It doesn't feel all thatcomfortable, and for the most
part we don't like to be laggingbehind.
That doesn't feel all thatcomfortable.
Where we feel most comfortable,neil is kind of in the center.
So I was like, how do I usethat?
So here's what we did.
We sent out a communication tothese Dentist and we included a
(07:19):
chart And at one end of thechart there was $0, least amount
of insurance you could haveright None.
And at the other end was $3million.
That was the most that thisparticular company sold.
And then we showed the Dentistwhere they were on the chart And
in all cases we made sure wechose people who had less than
1.5 million right.
So they were less than halfwayacross that chart.
So at a quick glance when youlooked at this, you would find
(07:42):
that you were lagging right.
You weren't in the center, youwere left of center And we
didn't expect that everyone wasgoing to run all the way to the
right side and purchase 3million.
But we did think we would movepeople closer to the center And
we did.
And when I talk about movingpeople closer to the center, i'm
talking about purchases made.
We got these Dentists to buymore insurance.
We got like a 300% lift overthe control.
(08:04):
Doing this, we moved themcloser to that center point.
Then that's when I was like allright, we got to go public with
this.
We should start to tell clientswhat we're doing and not just
bake it in but specificallypoint out what we're baking in
and why we're doing it.
And that worked out really well.
Clients like this is interesting.
A lot of times I talk to peoplewhen they're presenting their
work And it's personal opinion.
(08:25):
I like red, so I made it red.
Oh, i thought this sounded good, so I wrote it that way And I
was pointed to things sayingwell, there was a study from
Harvard, there was a study fromStanford, there was a study from
Yale.
This experiment proved this,the research showed this, and
clients were loving it becauseit was kind of empirical
evidence.
It was something that theycould hang on to and go.
Well, this makes sense And Iget it.
It may not always work.
It may not always work foreveryone, but we're testing this
(08:47):
with a real foundation beneathit And it's worked pretty well.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I was going to say, if marketing should be data
driven, that's the ultimateRight there.
It's based on an empirical setof data that's been proven by
one source, so that makes a lotof sense, and I think it's your
own incident.
As you were speaking, i'mthinking back to my water bill,
And every month it says this ishow much you used.
This is how much you used lastyear.
But, more importantly, if youwant to be in the top 20% of
(09:13):
water conservation in yourcommunity, this is where you
need to be.
So they've gamified it, butsimilar to the concepts you were
talking about there.
So when you did all this work,nancy, were you part of a
company that just focused onthis, or were you more like a
solo consultant helpingbusinesses?
Speaker 3 (09:29):
So it's funny When I first read Chaldeany's book and
started to apply these things, iwas working for other companies
.
I was at Mullen for a while AndI was at Hill Holiday These are
both big ad agencies that arepart of the IPG network And then
eventually I found my way to asmaller agency And with that
agency that was when I did thedentist thing And we decided
(09:49):
we're going to go public withthis.
There are a lot of smallagencies out there And it's
tough to differentiate a smallagency And a lot of times you
say, well, you're getting thebig agency talent at more direct
access and better prices.
And every small agency saysthat.
So we said we're going to be asmall agency And we're going to
go out with behavioral scienceand marketing best practices,
and that seemed to work verywell for us.
(10:10):
We were what's the sportsmetaphor punching above our
weight class.
With that.
We were attracting nationalclients that really would have
had no particular businessfinding us, but they did And
they were liking the work Andthe word was spreading.
And then eventually I spun offon my own with some of the
people that I had been workingwith at that agency And we
created our own place called HBTMarketing.
(10:31):
The HBT stands for humanbehavior triggers, because
that's what we're all about, andso now I'm doing it kind of for
my own agency, but it startedwhen I was working for other
agencies And those clients werebenefiting from it.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Amazing story.
Thank you for sharing that.
So I'm just really curious,nancy.
when clients come to you, itsounds like the approach is you
need to understand what theirchallenges are And then you're
going through your toolbox ofexperience and theories and
principles regarding behaviorscience to find things that they
(11:03):
can implement to make theirmarketing more effective.
Is that?
I'm just trying to think interms of the listener, that is,
the entrepreneur, the businessowner, the marketer, saying, hey
, how might Nancy be able tohelp our business?
Is that sort of the approachLike it starts with what is the
challenge that they have Andthen how can you apply what you
do to help them solve thatchallenge?
Would that be a gooddescription?
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Neil, that's spot on.
I think a lot of timesmarketers will be like OK, what
do I want to tell my prospects?
What do I want to tell mycustomers?
What are all the good things,all the reasons why they should
buy my product, all the reasonswhy they should sign up for my
service?
And what I'd like to look at iswhat are the reasons someone
isn't going to want to do whatwe're asking them to do, because
(11:46):
that's what we need to focus on.
So we want to find that bigbarrier that's holding someone
back from doing what we wantthem to do, and then we want to
find the right argument toovercome it.
And very often, part of theargument to overcome it is going
to involve one of thesebehavioral science principles,
or more than one.
Maybe you've got a product andyou're rolling it out to a new
geography.
(12:06):
So you've got a great product,you know it's good and all, but
you're in a new geography And soa buying barrier might be
people haven't heard of you.
So what can we do?
Well, we could tap into socialproof.
Social proof is the behavioralscience principle that says,
when people aren't certain ofwhat to do, they look around,
they see what other people aredoing and they follow their lead
.
So maybe we want to talk aboutthe number of happy customers we
(12:28):
have.
Or we want to run testimonialsfrom people so that, even though
they may not know your companyname, when they start to read
this information like OK, thatmakes sense.
Or maybe we want to try theauthority principle.
Maybe we want to talk about thefact that the American Dental
Association endorsed us or weremembers of the Better Business
Bureau, or some really famousperson in our field indicated
(12:50):
that we were really good andused our product.
So we'd start to look at what'sthe buying barrier and then
what are the best ways toovercome it.
And in my book I talk aboutabout 25 different behavioral
science principles.
There are actually hundreds ofthem, but I've got my 25 go-tos
that seem to have worked wellover and over and over again for
various clients, and they'rethe ones that I talk about in
(13:10):
the book.
So you kind of look at thattoolbox, as you said, and say
which ones are the likely onesto work, and then we want to
test them and see which oneswork the best, and that's where
we put our effort and our moneybehind.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
So, Nancy, that's really fascinating.
It makes a lot of sense.
I'm just curious, though, thatwhen the normal way in which
marketers work is very much sortof channel-focused, like
Facebook or blogging or SEO orconceptual right But behavioral
science doesn't come out as muchin the dialogue and the
(13:44):
discourse as it probably should,right, And I'm sure you'd agree
.
So how do companies understandthat they can take advantage of
this?
How do you?
are they like finding out aboutyou after reading your book?
Are they coming to theconclusion on their own?
How do you evangelize thisconcept?
Because I think that everybusiness, even the smallest of
business, could take advantageof what you offer, But I think
(14:05):
that very few people are talkingabout the subject.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Yeah, that's a good question And I would love to say
the answer is yes, they'rereading my book and everyone is.
That's how they're finding outabout it.
But that's a portion of it.
I mean, i will say, for HBTmarketing, we're getting clients
because of the book, because ofsome of the speaking I've done
on podcast and at conferencesand things like that.
But, that said, behavioralscience is beginning to bubble
up.
There have been other verticals,disciplines, industries, if you
(14:32):
will, that have kind of jumpedon it before marketing.
Oddly enough, you see it ineducation, you see it in
healthcare, you see it inpolitics and in marketing, which
it's tailor made for, becausebehavioral science is all about
how people make decisions andmarketing is all about getting
people to make decisions.
Marketing is tailor made for itor it's tailor made for
marketing.
We're a little late to theparty, but we're not entirely
(14:52):
late because we're starting tosee in the C suite chief
behavioral officers, chiefbehavioral science officers or
SVPs of behavioral science.
We're starting to see that popup in the C suite, which is
great.
And there are other books outthere in addition to mine that
are starting to explore thetopic.
Mine is square on withmarketing, others maybe circle
(15:13):
around it a little bit, but it'sout that Richard Schaun has a
great book.
There's mine.
Yes, i do like mine.
But Roger Dooley has a terrificbook, so there are some books
out there, so it's starting totake root in marketing, which is
great, where maybe not as faralong as healthcare or education
, but it's definitely out there.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
So you mentioned Roger Dooley and I've been on
his podcast before and he has agreat book as well.
So would you say thatbehavioral science and marketing
, that neuro marketing isanother term for it, or is there
a slight difference between thetwo terms?
Speaker 3 (15:47):
So I think they're definitely related.
I talk about behavioral scienceas being the study of how
people behave.
It's pretty simple definitionof it, but it really is the
study of how people behave Andit's kind of this combination of
psychology and sociology andcognitive science.
And then when we get intoneuroscience or neuro marketing,
it's again how people makedecisions, the shortcuts that
(16:08):
the mental shortcuts, theshortcuts that their brains use,
the biases that we all have.
So they're all related.
As you get into neuro marketing, a lot of times what you find
is the discussion will go moretowards literally observing
people's brain, So maybe puttingthem into fMRI machines or
attaching them to differentequipment so you can measure
their galvanic skin response,which is basically their
(16:30):
perspiration, and things likethat.
But it's all part and parcel ofthe same field of study, which
is basically just how peoplerespond, why we do what we do,
the mental shortcuts that wetake, the biases and the
heuristics that we have.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah, it's really interesting.
I could see how behavioralscience is a broader umbrella
that encompasses many things,including neuro marketing, so
that made a lot of sense.
So I think a lot of listenersare thinking, okay, i get it,
but how, exactly?
like?
what are the first steps I cando outside of calling you up and
hiring you to be able toimplement these best practices
(17:09):
in our work?
And one of the things that,before we began the interview,
we were talking about, some ofthe things we wanna cover today.
One of them that you brought upwas to understand how your
customers and prospects reallymake decisions, and I think, as
we live in a digital world, thisbecomes even more fascinating.
When people are on your digitalproperties, what are the
(17:30):
triggers?
But I wanna take a step back.
I mean, how would you for allthe businesses listening who
think they understand how theircustomers and prospects are
making decisions?
but I'm assuming that when youpose this question, that they
got it all wrong.
So I'm curious as to what isthat decision making process
that people or companies areundertaking when they are
deciding on whether or not tobuy your product or service.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Sure.
So I think a lot of times weassume that people make well
thought out, well considereddecisions, that they're making
choices based on their wants ortheir needs, or the research
they've done or their pastexperiences, and all of that is
true to a certain extent, butvery often there are other
factors at play, factors thatpeople aren't even aware of.
The research shows that up to95% of purchase decision making
(18:15):
actually takes place in thesubconscious mind, and the
reason for this is it would bevirtually impossible for people
to weigh every bit ofinformation before making a
decision.
We just never get around tomaking it or to making any.
So what we've done as humans iswe've developed certain
automatic, instinctive,reflexive responses, certain
hardwired behaviors, and what itallows us to do is kind of
(18:36):
cruise along through life onautopilot.
We encounter a certainsituation and we can just
default to these hardwiredbehaviors, giving them little,
if any, thought.
So one example is people have atendency to choose the middle
option.
If you put three things infront of somebody, it's like you
just gravitate towards themiddle one, not all the time
Most popular right.
But yeah, or if you see, mostpopular or one thing is social.
(18:59):
I'm not social proof, socialproof would be most popular The
idea of loss aversion.
Behavioral scientists havefound that people are twice as
motivated to avoid the pain ofloss as they are to achieve the
pleasure of gain.
So what that would suggest tous as marketers is we wanna put
a little bit of loss aversioninto our messages.
Instead of saying, hey, takeadvantage of this, we might
wanna say don't miss out on this.
So it's little things like that.
(19:21):
And in marketing we think it'sall about the benefits.
And I don't wanna tell yourlisteners to avoid benefits.
We know that they work, wedon't wanna avoid them.
But a little bit of well-placedloss aversion can go a long way
, because as much as people likebenefits and gains and
advantages, what they like evenmore is avoiding mistakes,
avoiding losses, avoidingmissteps.
So it's how we serve up ourmessages.
(19:42):
We wanna get the right messageto the right person at the right
time.
That old chest not right.
But we wanna do it in the rightway.
We wanna do it in a way that'sbrain-friendly, a way that's
gonna be most likely to getsomeone's attention, to make
sure that they understand themessage, to make sure that they
remember it and they act upon it, and behavioral science will
help us do that.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
So it's really just this form of thinking that
should permeate how we write ourcopy, how we write our
advertising, the email subjectline.
It really should go into all ofthat.
It should be one of these toolsin our mind And, if we follow
what you just said, that's gonnahelp us be a little bit more
effective in everything we do.
Basically, right.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Yeah, it's just remembering that people are
making decisions and they'rebeing influenced in ways they're
not even aware of.
So we can ask our customers andprospects why did you do that?
And they'll tell us what theyhonestly believe.
I mean, they're not trying tomislead us, but what's turned
out is what research has shownis that sometimes they don't
even know that they'reinfluenced by something and they
don't even know why.
(20:39):
There was a research study thatwas done in Leicester, england,
which is about an hour and 10minutes northwest of London if
you're taking the train, andthere was a wine shop there, and
what they did is they playednothing but German music in the
background and they watched as73% of the customers purchased
German wine.
And then they changed the music.
They played nothing but Frenchmusic in the background.
They watched as 77% of thecustomers purchased French wine.
(21:02):
But here's where it getsinteresting, neil.
They asked people well, why didyou buy the wine?
you did?
Nobody mentioned there arevirtually nobody mentioned the
music.
I think maybe one person did.
Now, clearly, there wassomething at play there.
If you heard the German music,you were predisposed to buy
German wine.
If you heard the French, youwere gravitating towards the
French wine, and so that's agreat example of the fact that
we make decisions.
(21:22):
We think we know why we're doingthem, but there are other
factors at play that areinfluencing us And, as marketers
, if we can remember that, wecan start to use it to our
advantage As marketers.
At first we might be terrifiedand we hear that, well, like oh
my God, i have no control, likeeverything I'm trying to do, it
turns out that it may not workbecause there are these other
factors.
But what it really means is, asmarketers, we should harness
those other factors and use whatscience has proven about human
(21:45):
behavior in order to influenceit, in order to get the response
that we're looking for, or atleast to increase the likelihood
that we'll get that response.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah, it makes so much sense because I think, as
marketers, we tend to be toomuch focused on us instead of
them, right?
And as we focus on them, whatare those Psychological triggers
?
and I want to, i want to bringup the next question, which is
you say that there are theseautomatic hardware behaviors
that people have and that thereare easy ways to trigger them.
(22:14):
So I'm really curious as to howwe can all take advantage of
that in our marketing.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Sure, okay.
So you know.
one way is, you know, this ideaof loss aversion instead of
saying take advantage of, yousay Don't miss.
So that that's one way.
We talked a little bit aboutsocial proof, you know, don't
just say we've got the product,talk about how many other people
are enjoying the product.
You know, one way is the ideaof something known as choice
architecture.
In choice architecture, verysimply, is How choices are
(22:39):
presented, because the waychoices are presented actually
influences how people respond tothem.
And you know, you might thinkwell, you know, choices of
choices of choice, whatdifference does it make?
But how you display something,how you offer something, can
make a difference.
We had a client that was Sellinghere we go with insurance again
different kind of insurance,but still insurance, but a
client that was sellinginsurance at the workplace.
(23:00):
So the idea was, it wasvoluntary insurance, you know.
And what they would do is theywould send out an email and they
would say hey, neil, theinsurance representative is
going to be here on Tuesday.
Sign up for an appointment, youcan meet with them, You can
hear about all the new productsthat they have and if you're
interested, you can, you know,you can sign up for one, you
know, totally voluntarily.
But you know up to you and youknow what would happen.
(23:21):
People's eyes would roll backin their heads And very few
people would sign up.
So we use some choicearchitecture.
We sent out an email.
We said hey, neil, theinsurance representative is
going to be here on Tuesday.
We've set up an appointment foryou, at it two o'clock in room
13a.
You know I have to do a show upand you'll be all set.
You can hear all about it Andif you're interested, you can
make a purchase.
And then you know, a little bitfurther down in the email was a
(23:41):
link that said you know, clickhere if you need to reschedule.
And what we experienced was a418% increase in the number of
people showing up right, becausewe used to.
You know, in the past You hadto go through the effort of
signing up.
It was just a lot easier to donothing.
So what we did is we use somechoice architecture to make it
(24:02):
easier to do nothing and show upright.
Like we already set up, themeeting for you would require
more effort to get out of it.
You'd have to reschedule it orsay no, no, i want to cancel it.
We just made it so easy.
And that's how the human brainworks.
You know we take the path ofleast resistance.
We like to do things that areeasy and by using that bit of
choice architecture, we got that418% increase in number of
(24:23):
people showing up, and then thatresulted in a 19% increase in
policies purchased.
So, you know, it headed as youmight imagine more people to
show up, more product.
You're going to move right, youknow So, but it was a simple
little switch and it was, youknow, just changing the way
things had always been done, butchanging it in a way that made,
(24:43):
you know, made sense, as wetook into account how people
make decisions.
You know you don't want to gothrough the effort.
We want to remove as muchfriction or as many barriers as
possible.
We want to make it as easy aspossible.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
So, on that note, what are you know?
you've mentioned sort ofchanging the language Based on,
you know, behavioral science andall these data studies.
What have you?
What are some of the bestphrases and frames?
you've already brought up someof them, but in your mind, what
are the best phrases and framesthat people listening can
utilize to help increaseengagement And response and,
(25:16):
ultimately, conversion?
Speaker 3 (25:17):
sure, So one of them revolves around the notion of
novelty.
So the human brain is ishardwired to seek out the new
and novel, and We do it becausewhen we find something that we
think is new, it releasesdopamine in our brain and that's
a very feel good Chemical,among other things, it just
makes us feel good And so, as aresult, we're constantly
jonesing for that next state ofdopamine.
We're constantly looking forthe next new thing.
(25:37):
So anytime we can use new now,introducing, announcing, finally
, soon.
If you're looking for a verb,go with discover, don't use
learn.
Learn sounds like a lot of work.
I have to learn this and you're.
You know, you're all the wayback in second grade math class
And you want to be outside, atresearch or recess rather, but
you're stuck inside with yournose in a book.
You know, but discover.
(25:58):
Well, that sounds like fun,right, you know.
So, discover this, find outthis, gain this.
Explorer.
Yes, you know, just this wholeidea of novelty is a wonderful
thing.
Another great word to use is theword you, and you reference
something.
A little bit earlier You saidyou know we.
We talk a lot about ourselvesand you know business.
We talk about our products, ourcompany, our service, and the
truth of the matter is that'snot nearly as is interesting to
(26:21):
To our readers or to ourlisteners, as the word you.
So, as people are skimming andscanning, they kind of gloss
over I, we all are our company,but when they see the word you,
they zero in on it because yourepresents them and we're way
more interested in ourselvesThan in anyone else.
So if we can use the word you,that's, that's really really
good.
Another powerful word is theword secrets, and the word
(26:43):
secrets is so powerful becauseParable scientists have shown
that people are actually morepersuaded by information They
believe is not widely available,and the secret would absolutely
represent information That'snot widely available.
So too would a sneak peek orthe behind the scenes look, or
the real truth or the factsbehind.
You know, anytime we can use aword or a phrase that conveys
(27:06):
the idea that we haveinformation that not everyone
else has, people will gravitatetowards that it's.
It goes back to the idea ofscarcity, you know where.
We're just more motivated bythings that are in short supply,
and that's something that'shardwired into us Since I think
back in our caveman days, rightWhere our ancient ancestors,
would you know, would have to befinding the things that would
sustain life, and you know Wewould would hoard anything that
(27:28):
was important to us.
You know it's like.
You know there's only so manyresources to go around.
We have to get ours and thenthey'll be gone if we don't, you
know.
So this idea of scarcity ishardwired into us.
Maybe it kept us alive way backthen.
Now, you know it's just a ashortcut that we use as we
navigate through the day, and ifwe find information that we
think is scarce, right, it'slittle known, it's a secret We
pay attention, we're much morelikely to.
(27:50):
I'll give you one more.
You have time for one more.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Oh, this is awesome.
Yeah, this is great, keep goingsure, sure.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
So another real powerful word that we can use is
the word because.
And um, there's a researcherthat came out of Harvard, her
name is Ellen Langer, and sheidentified the word because as
an automatic compliance trigger.
Essentially, when we see or hearit, we just start to nod up and
down, we start to agree, we'rein this agreeable mindset Before
we've even processed what comesnext.
(28:16):
So she ran this experiment.
There are a bunch of peoplethat were lined up to use a
photocopier.
She sent someone to the head ofthe line and she instructed
them to say excuse me, can I cutin front of you?
And 60 percent of the time sixzero 60 percent of the time they
were allowed to cut.
So that's our baseline.
Now she repeats the experimenta second time, but this time she
instructs the person to go tothe front of the line and say
excuse me, can I cut in front ofyou because I'm in a hurry and
(28:37):
have some copies to make?
Well, the 60 percent numberjumps to 94 percent.
And as I tell you this new, youmight say well, they said they
were in a hurry.
But Langer repeats theexperiment one last time,
instructs a person to go to thehead of line and say, excuse me,
can I cut in front of youbecause I have some copies to
make?
the 94 percent number drops to93 percent.
1 percent drops Statisticallyinsignificant, still that same
(28:58):
huge lift over the baseline 60.
Now think about it.
Everybody's standing in thatline.
We're standing in that linebecause they had some copies to
make, right?
They don't stand in line at thephotocopier to get a coffee.
It doesn't work that way.
Right?
She identified the word because, as an automatic compliance
trigger, when we see it, when wehear it, we're just agreeing.
We don't even process whatcomes next.
It's like you get to the wordbecause and we figure it's a
(29:20):
good, legitimate reason.
So what that suggests to us asmarketers is we want to provide
the reason why we're askingpeople to do what we're asking
them to do, and the better thereason.
Well, the better the reason.
But it doesn't have to be thisironclad, bullet proof reason.
It doesn't have to be you know,buy my product and you'll
become a millionaire.
Great, if we could say it.
But very few of us can makethat kind of a claim.
(29:41):
So just close the circle.
Explain why somebody should dowhat we're asking them to.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
That's really fascinating.
I'm thinking that one takeawayfor everyone listening could be
these sort of trigger phrasesthat you talked about.
Almost make notes of them andput them like stick them on the
wall around you So that when youare writing copy, you can
always be referencing them right.
Obviously, everyone should bebuying a copy of using
behavioral science and marketing, but I want to finish this
conversation.
You know when we last met up acontent marketing role.
(30:07):
This is September and oh my, howthe marketing world has changed
.
We've always had AI, right.
We've always had tools likeJasper, but obviously just this
emergence of chat, gpt and themainstream way in which AI is
really like the internet itselfdid two decades ago.
So you mentioned some of thesetrigger phrases.
It's really interesting becauseoriginally the title for this
(30:28):
podcast or this live streamhowever you're consuming this
content was using behavioralscience and marketing.
So I put this through vidIQ,which is a YouTube tool which
also, like every other tool, hassome AI capabilities.
So it came back with a titlethat I thought was really great
The truth about behavioralscience and marketing.
Parentheses hint, it'sfascinating, close parentheses.
(30:52):
So I'm just really curious,nancy, from your perspective.
With this emergence of AI, italmost seems like there's gotta
be a way.
I don't think you can hard codeit, but there's gotta be a way.
There's gotta be a tool or someprocesses together with these
AI tools, with certain prompts,that can lead us to the sort of
(31:12):
verbates that you're talkingabout, that sort of a hack,
right?
I'm really curious as towhether or not you think that's
possible, because AI really itgets at the core of sort of
behavioral science, i suppose.
But what is your take on this?
And if there was anyrecommendations you had whether
to use a tool or not to use atool, i think this would really
be invaluable advice coming fromsomeone that specializes in
this.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Yeah, you know, it adds to the million dollar
question, i think, and it is onethat I've been thinking about.
So I suppose at some point itis theoretically possible for
the AI to know about thesebehavioral science prompts and
to begin to incorporate theminto the copy that it puts out.
That said, at this stage of thegame, there are a couple of
(31:53):
things we need to keep in mind.
One is that the empathy thathumans can add to writing isn't
quite there yet with AI.
The other is, i think theknowledge base stops at 2021.
Is that right, correct?
Speaker 1 (32:07):
I think GPT-4 has brought it forward a little bit,
but yeah, it's still behind forsure.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
So there's gonna be a little bit lacking.
And then Christopher Gravesfrom Ogilvy ran an experiment
where he was asking about aparticular behavioral science
principle And he asked AI togenerate some information.
And he said what he got backwas really very interesting and
very detailed, and it had all ofthese citations, and he was
(32:31):
like, oh, it's really cool.
He was amazed, and so then hestarted to check the citations
and he couldn't seem to findthem.
So he asked AI did you makethese up?
Are they real?
And the response was yes, imade them up.
And so he was like well, that'sa problem.
You can't be citing citationsthat don't exist, particularly
for science.
And so there are still a fewthings we need to worry about or
(32:54):
be cautious about, but in thefuture, i certainly can see
behavioral science being part ofmany things that artificial
intelligence pulls in to craftthe copy that we're looking for.
At this stage of the game, idon't think we're quite there,
but, as you said, things arechanging so rapidly.
Who knows Just.
I mean, the sky's the limit, itseems.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yeah, and what I'm seeing and I'm sure you've seen
it as well, nancy with all thedifferent AI tools, they all
have different implementations.
They all deliver differentresults.
So the vidIQ model or databaseis looking at YouTube titles
that probably perform reallywell and trying to replicate
them right, and obviously maybea lot of people have read your
book and that's what.
So I can see how that gotingested.
When I do the same thing inanother tool, i'll get different
(33:38):
results that aren't, as to me,as good, but then again, it's
also, i suppose, on the otherend, nancy, it's a human
decision.
At the end of the day, you havethree different results from
the AI.
Which one do you use?
It's gonna come down to howwell you understand these
principles, so we'll never be100% relying on all this, right.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
Right.
but it's a great tool to helpus test, to surface ideas, to
test to surface suggestions.
And I mean, i can certainly seea situation or a scenario where
we say here's what the problemis, what are the most likely
behavioral science principlesthat would make sense to try to
get out there to overcome thisproblem?
And so it could kind of shortcircuit some of the research
(34:17):
we're doing and maybe give ussome ideas about how to craft
something.
And then, of course, we cankind of pop it in finesse and
edit.
If you think about the book thatI just wrote, it's got a lot of
research in it which I didn'tdo.
It's got some case studies,many of which I worked on, some
of which I referenced.
but then it also has somepersonal anecdotes And you could
(34:38):
argue that if you fed this intoAI, they could probably pull
the research, although it may ormay not have been accurate, but
they could probably pull theresearch studies.
they could probably pull thecase studies.
but what an artificialintelligence source couldn't do
was write the book that I wrote,because I pulled my own
personal experiences, my ownobservations, things that
happened to me that justwouldn't be out there, and I
think that's a book, but as wetalk about marketing, some of
(35:01):
that human element is still veryimportant to making the sale,
and that's something that, atthis stage of the game, you're
only getting from humans.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
And the human connection as well, right, And
then this goes back into thepsychology and Dr Chaldini.
But yeah, it's reallyfascinating just seeing how this
is all evolving.
And I agree with you I mean,even Google has said it's not
about expertise, authority andtrustworthiness, it's also about
experience, right, I have twohigh school age kids and my wife
has a word like oh, everyone'sgonna use chat.
You can write these greatessays, But at the end of the
(35:30):
day, if you're writing like acollege admission essay, you
have to talk about yourexperience, right, And you have
to go deep on it.
And I think a reader that ishuman is gonna be able to see.
As I grade papers for my UCLAExtension class in Influenza
Marketing, I'm trying to see arethere sort of like unnatural,
like sentences here that clearlylook like they're written from
AI, or are they basing it ontheir own project?
(35:51):
So I do have faith that and Ido believe there will be tools
that will help us as well as wego forward.
Nancy, But this has just been afascinating and really, to me,
fun conversation.
I love having conversationswith smart marketers who, I mean
, we go beyond data driven toreally science driven marketing,
which, to me is just this wholeother field that is so untapped
, as you know.
So keep preaching, keep goingforward.
(36:13):
Obviously everyone listening.
Nancy Harhut, you should go outand buy the book wherever fine
books are sold.
Using behavioral science andmarketing, drive customer action
and loyalty by promptinginstinctive responses.
Cogun Page, excellent publisherout of the United Kingdom.
Nancy, where else can people goto find out more about you and
to engage with you?
Speaker 3 (36:33):
Well, thank you, great question.
You know I'm on Twitter at andHarhut, I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on
Facebook And the agency that Ico-founded, HBT Marketing, which
stands for Human BehaviorTriggers, is at hbtmktgcom And
you can find some of the stuffI've written, some other
interviews I've been on at thatwebsite, So I would love to hear
from your listeners.
You know, drop me a line,connect with me on social, Be
(36:56):
happy to engage.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
That is awesome, nancy, and because I use an AI
tool that whenever we talk aboutlinks and show notes, it will
know to get those wwwcom URLs,we'll make sure automatically
that those links are in the shownotes.
Thank you, but, nancy, this hasbeen great.
Thank you so much.
I can't wait to run into youagain at the next marketing
conference.
I'm sure it won't be long.
Best of success and thanksagain for joining.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Thank you so much for having me.
I look forward to running intoyou again as well, but thank you
, this was terrific.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
All right, i hope you enjoyed that interview as much
as I did, is it, nancy?
Just a wealth of informationand advice at a extremely high
level of understanding ofbehavioral science.
So it's a very, very uniqueniche, but I think you can see
why she is so popular on theSpeaking Circuit and her
bestselling book of all thatknowledge.
(37:44):
So definitely, if you'reinterested in finding out more,
i hope you will reach out to her.
If you need more help with yourdigital content influence of
social media marketing.
I don't talk a lot about this inthe podcast, but I help
businesses and entrepreneurs andstartup founders, content
creators, in a variety of ways,but primarily I have a monthly
(38:07):
group mastermind called DigitalFirst, where we meet on weekly
Zoom calls.
It is limited to 15 people tomaintain high quality And right
now we are actually at that 15person cap.
But if you go to nealshafercomslash membership, you can also
sign up to be on the waitinglist for when we have an opening
.
I also offer moreindividualized, personal,
fractional CMO consultingservices.
(38:29):
These are done for as little asone hour a week on a three
month contract, so obviously aservice like this is going to be
customized to what your needsare will be more expensive than
the group mastermind, but ifthat is something that is
interesting as well, you can goto nealshafercom, slash, cmo And
you know what.
If you're not ready for eitherof those and you just enjoy
(38:49):
listening to this podcast, it'sabsolutely free.
But if you were to share thison your socials with a
screenshot, give it a five starranking on whatever app you're
listening to and, you know,write a little review of one or
two sentences, it would reallymake my day, and that,
ultimately, is the ROI ofcreating these podcasts for your
ears.
Listening pleasure.
(39:10):
All right, everybody.
That's another wrap for anotherepisode of the original
marketing coach podcast.
This is your digital marketingcoach, neil Schaefer, signing
off.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
You've been listening to your digital marketing coach
.
Questions, comments, requests,links.
Go to podcastnealshafercom Getthe show notes to this and 200
plus podcast episodes andnealshafercom to tap into the
400 plus blog posts that Neilhas published to support your
(39:41):
business.
While you're there, check outNeil's digital first group
coaching membership community Ifyou or your business needs a
little helping hand.
See you next time on yourdigital marketing coach.
Have you ever thought about the convergence of
psychology and marketing?
Is there a way that we canleverage psychology, or the way
that people behave, to get themto better engage with us and buy
more from us?
Actually, there is a way to usebehavioral science in marketing
(00:21):
, and today I have the world'sforemost expert on that very
subject that I'm going tointerview on this next episode
of the your digital marketingcoach podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Good thing you've got Neil on your side, because Neil
Schaefer is your digitalmarketing coach.
Helping you grow your businesswith digital first marketing,
one episode at a time.
This is your digital marketingcoach and this is Neil Schaefer.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Hey everybody, this is Neil Schaefer and I am your
digital marketing coach.
Today's special guest issomeone that hired the
opportunity to meet at ContentMarketing World last year, but
as I bought her book at thebookstore there.
Her book is called LiterallyUsing Behavioral Science in
(01:43):
Marketing, drive Customer Actionand Loyalty by Prompting
Instinctive Responses.
And hearing about all theamazing places she was speaking,
including Content MarketingWorld, i'm like Nancy I got to
get you on my podcast.
Please accept my invite becauseI know what you have to share
is going to be powerful for mylisteners.
(02:03):
That is the backstory betweenhow I know Nancy and her
appearance on today's podcast.
So we talk about a lot ofthings.
I know behavioral science.
It sounds like this veryesoteric and potentially even
boring subject.
I guarantee you it's excitingwhen you understand the
potential once you tap into itUnderstanding how your customers
(02:27):
and prospects really makedecisions, finding easy ways to
trigger automatic, hardwiredbehaviors, the best phrases and
frames to increase engagementand response These are the types
of things that we talk aboutthat I think you are going to
find intriguing and powerful andapplicable to your business.
So, without further ado, hereis my interview with Nancy
(02:50):
Harhout, the author of UsingBehavioral Science in Marketing.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
You're listening to your digital marketing coach.
This is Neil Schaefer.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Nancy Harhout, welcome to the Digital Marketing
Coach podcast.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Neil, thank you so much.
I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
It was an honor to have met you in person at
Content Marketing World Man Iwant to say recently, but it's
already been six months.
We're already getting ready forthe next one, but it was really
great to see your new bookUsing Behavioral Science in
Marketing.
In marketing, we always saythat it's part science, part art
and therefore today I thinkwe're going to focus a lot on
(03:30):
the science part.
But as we were talkingbeforehand, nancy, you said that
you are a marketer with a focuson behavioral science.
I'd like to understand what gotyou into both marketing and
behavioral science and seeinghow the two fit together, nancy,
Harhout.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
All right, that's a great question.
So what got me into marketingwas I always like to write and
I'm a copywriter by trade, but Ialways like to write And early
on I thought that you had twooptions You either be the great
American novelist, and thatwasn't going to happen, or you'd
be a journalist.
So I went to Boston University,i studied journalism and I was
doing fine, neil.
But I looked around going intomy senior year and I realized
(04:06):
that some of my peers werereally good.
Like they had the fire in theirbelly, They had no problem
taking a microphone, shoving itin someone's face and saying,
hey, that's your house burningdown, how do you feel?
And I didn't have that.
So I said, all right, i'll begood, but I'm never going to be
great.
So I scrambled my senior yearand I took anything else that
involved writing that I couldfind There was corporate
communications and publicrelations and advertising And I
(04:28):
eventually found my way intoadvertising and never looked
back.
And then, somewhere along thecourse of my career, i read a
book by Robert Cialdini calledInfluence the Psychology of
Persuasion, and it waseye-opening for me And that's
what sent me down the rabbithole of behavioral science.
I just started studying it andapplying it and working more and
(04:50):
more with it, and the rest ishistory, as they say.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah, that book influenced pun intended so many
people.
It is still one of the.
There is not a book that hasreplaced it, and it's been
around for what 20 years?
I want to say.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Yeah, yeah, Cialdini just updated and reissued a
second edition, which is it'sgot to be another 100 pages
longer or something.
I have it.
I'm not through with it yet,though, but it's fabulous Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah, i've yet to read the revised version either.
So influence and obviously thepsychology of persuasion, and
therefore I think we get intothe psychology.
So, since reading that book,what sort of work have you done
in the field of sort ofintegrating that into marketing?
Speaker 3 (05:29):
So, you know, I started like kind of small scale
.
So I was reading the book, andreading anything I get my hands
on, and so I started to apply,you know, the different things I
was reading.
I'd read something, i'dunderline, make a margin note.
I'd be thinking about the workthat I was doing for my various
clients.
I'd be like, ooh, this mightwork to solve that problem, or I
should try this with, you know,with this other problem.
And as I started to test thesedifferent approaches, these
(05:53):
different tactics, i wasstarting to see the results.
And the more I saw the results,you know, the more I wanted to
use these.
And so I just, you know, i justbegan to kind of integrate it
into the way that I did business.
So it wasn't just marketingbest practices, but it was
marketing best practices plusthe use of behavioral science.
And one good example is I wasdoing some work for a company
(06:15):
that sold insurance to Dentist.
So I know I just lost all ofyour listeners there.
It's like Dentist insurance, ah, but stick with me because this
is actually kind of interesting.
But you know, the thing aboutgetting someone to buy insurance
is, you know, nobody wants tobuy it, And if you can get them
to buy it.
They've checked off the listand they don't ever want to
return to that decision.
They were like I crossed it offmy list.
(06:35):
You know, i'm done with that.
And the thing about insuranceis you should really update it
every couple of years justbecause things in life change
You get married, you havechildren, your practice grows,
you're making more money, you'regetting closer to retirement,
whatever it is.
You know you really shouldcheck it.
But so they were trying to sendthese Dentist messages saying,
hey, it's probably time that youtook another look, maybe it's
time to increase your policy.
And it was crickets.
(06:56):
They weren't getting anywhere.
So I had read something aboutthe pull of the magnetic middle
which basically said that youknow, for the most part humans,
we don't like to be out on thebleeding edge.
It doesn't feel all thatcomfortable, and for the most
part we don't like to be laggingbehind.
That doesn't feel all thatcomfortable.
Where we feel most comfortable,neil is kind of in the center.
So I was like, how do I usethat?
So here's what we did.
We sent out a communication tothese Dentist and we included a
(07:19):
chart And at one end of thechart there was $0, least amount
of insurance you could haveright None.
And at the other end was $3million.
That was the most that thisparticular company sold.
And then we showed the Dentistwhere they were on the chart And
in all cases we made sure wechose people who had less than
1.5 million right.
So they were less than halfwayacross that chart.
So at a quick glance when youlooked at this, you would find
(07:42):
that you were lagging right.
You weren't in the center, youwere left of center And we
didn't expect that everyone wasgoing to run all the way to the
right side and purchase 3million.
But we did think we would movepeople closer to the center And
we did.
And when I talk about movingpeople closer to the center, i'm
talking about purchases made.
We got these Dentists to buymore insurance.
We got like a 300% lift overthe control.
(08:04):
Doing this, we moved themcloser to that center point.
Then that's when I was like allright, we got to go public with
this.
We should start to tell clientswhat we're doing and not just
bake it in but specificallypoint out what we're baking in
and why we're doing it.
And that worked out really well.
Clients like this is interesting.
A lot of times I talk to peoplewhen they're presenting their
work And it's personal opinion.
(08:25):
I like red, so I made it red.
Oh, i thought this sounded good, so I wrote it that way And I
was pointed to things sayingwell, there was a study from
Harvard, there was a study fromStanford, there was a study from
Yale.
This experiment proved this,the research showed this, and
clients were loving it becauseit was kind of empirical
evidence.
It was something that theycould hang on to and go.
Well, this makes sense And Iget it.
It may not always work.
It may not always work foreveryone, but we're testing this
(08:47):
with a real foundation beneathit And it's worked pretty well.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I was going to say, if marketing should be data
driven, that's the ultimateRight there.
It's based on an empirical setof data that's been proven by
one source, so that makes a lotof sense, and I think it's your
own incident.
As you were speaking, i'mthinking back to my water bill,
And every month it says this ishow much you used.
This is how much you used lastyear.
But, more importantly, if youwant to be in the top 20% of
(09:13):
water conservation in yourcommunity, this is where you
need to be.
So they've gamified it, butsimilar to the concepts you were
talking about there.
So when you did all this work,nancy, were you part of a
company that just focused onthis, or were you more like a
solo consultant helpingbusinesses?
Speaker 3 (09:29):
So it's funny When I first read Chaldeany's book and
started to apply these things, iwas working for other companies
.
I was at Mullen for a while AndI was at Hill Holiday These are
both big ad agencies that arepart of the IPG network And then
eventually I found my way to asmaller agency And with that
agency that was when I did thedentist thing And we decided
(09:49):
we're going to go public withthis.
There are a lot of smallagencies out there And it's
tough to differentiate a smallagency And a lot of times you
say, well, you're getting thebig agency talent at more direct
access and better prices.
And every small agency saysthat.
So we said we're going to be asmall agency And we're going to
go out with behavioral scienceand marketing best practices,
and that seemed to work verywell for us.
(10:10):
We were what's the sportsmetaphor punching above our
weight class.
With that.
We were attracting nationalclients that really would have
had no particular businessfinding us, but they did And
they were liking the work Andthe word was spreading.
And then eventually I spun offon my own with some of the
people that I had been workingwith at that agency And we
created our own place called HBTMarketing.
(10:31):
The HBT stands for humanbehavior triggers, because
that's what we're all about, andso now I'm doing it kind of for
my own agency, but it startedwhen I was working for other
agencies And those clients werebenefiting from it.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Amazing story.
Thank you for sharing that.
So I'm just really curious,nancy.
when clients come to you, itsounds like the approach is you
need to understand what theirchallenges are And then you're
going through your toolbox ofexperience and theories and
principles regarding behaviorscience to find things that they
(11:03):
can implement to make theirmarketing more effective.
Is that?
I'm just trying to think interms of the listener, that is,
the entrepreneur, the businessowner, the marketer, saying, hey
, how might Nancy be able tohelp our business?
Is that sort of the approachLike it starts with what is the
challenge that they have Andthen how can you apply what you
do to help them solve thatchallenge?
Would that be a gooddescription?
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Neil, that's spot on.
I think a lot of timesmarketers will be like OK, what
do I want to tell my prospects?
What do I want to tell mycustomers?
What are all the good things,all the reasons why they should
buy my product, all the reasonswhy they should sign up for my
service?
And what I'd like to look at iswhat are the reasons someone
isn't going to want to do whatwe're asking them to do, because
(11:46):
that's what we need to focus on.
So we want to find that bigbarrier that's holding someone
back from doing what we wantthem to do, and then we want to
find the right argument toovercome it.
And very often, part of theargument to overcome it is going
to involve one of thesebehavioral science principles,
or more than one.
Maybe you've got a product andyou're rolling it out to a new
geography.
(12:06):
So you've got a great product,you know it's good and all, but
you're in a new geography And soa buying barrier might be
people haven't heard of you.
So what can we do?
Well, we could tap into socialproof.
Social proof is the behavioralscience principle that says,
when people aren't certain ofwhat to do, they look around,
they see what other people aredoing and they follow their lead
.
So maybe we want to talk aboutthe number of happy customers we
(12:28):
have.
Or we want to run testimonialsfrom people so that, even though
they may not know your companyname, when they start to read
this information like OK, thatmakes sense.
Or maybe we want to try theauthority principle.
Maybe we want to talk about thefact that the American Dental
Association endorsed us or weremembers of the Better Business
Bureau, or some really famousperson in our field indicated
(12:50):
that we were really good andused our product.
So we'd start to look at what'sthe buying barrier and then
what are the best ways toovercome it.
And in my book I talk aboutabout 25 different behavioral
science principles.
There are actually hundreds ofthem, but I've got my 25 go-tos
that seem to have worked wellover and over and over again for
various clients, and they'rethe ones that I talk about in
(13:10):
the book.
So you kind of look at thattoolbox, as you said, and say
which ones are the likely onesto work, and then we want to
test them and see which oneswork the best, and that's where
we put our effort and our moneybehind.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
So, Nancy, that's really fascinating.
It makes a lot of sense.
I'm just curious, though, thatwhen the normal way in which
marketers work is very much sortof channel-focused, like
Facebook or blogging or SEO orconceptual right But behavioral
science doesn't come out as muchin the dialogue and the
(13:44):
discourse as it probably should,right, And I'm sure you'd agree
.
So how do companies understandthat they can take advantage of
this?
How do you?
are they like finding out aboutyou after reading your book?
Are they coming to theconclusion on their own?
How do you evangelize thisconcept?
Because I think that everybusiness, even the smallest of
business, could take advantageof what you offer, But I think
(14:05):
that very few people are talkingabout the subject.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Yeah, that's a good question And I would love to say
the answer is yes, they'rereading my book and everyone is.
That's how they're finding outabout it.
But that's a portion of it.
I mean, i will say, for HBTmarketing, we're getting clients
because of the book, because ofsome of the speaking I've done
on podcast and at conferencesand things like that.
But, that said, behavioralscience is beginning to bubble
up.
There have been other verticals,disciplines, industries, if you
(14:32):
will, that have kind of jumpedon it before marketing.
Oddly enough, you see it ineducation, you see it in
healthcare, you see it inpolitics and in marketing, which
it's tailor made for, becausebehavioral science is all about
how people make decisions andmarketing is all about getting
people to make decisions.
Marketing is tailor made for itor it's tailor made for
marketing.
We're a little late to theparty, but we're not entirely
(14:52):
late because we're starting tosee in the C suite chief
behavioral officers, chiefbehavioral science officers or
SVPs of behavioral science.
We're starting to see that popup in the C suite, which is
great.
And there are other books outthere in addition to mine that
are starting to explore thetopic.
Mine is square on withmarketing, others maybe circle
(15:13):
around it a little bit, but it'sout that Richard Schaun has a
great book.
There's mine.
Yes, i do like mine.
But Roger Dooley has a terrificbook, so there are some books
out there, so it's starting totake root in marketing, which is
great, where maybe not as faralong as healthcare or education
, but it's definitely out there.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
So you mentioned Roger Dooley and I've been on
his podcast before and he has agreat book as well.
So would you say thatbehavioral science and marketing
, that neuro marketing isanother term for it, or is there
a slight difference between thetwo terms?
Speaker 3 (15:47):
So I think they're definitely related.
I talk about behavioral scienceas being the study of how
people behave.
It's pretty simple definitionof it, but it really is the
study of how people behave Andit's kind of this combination of
psychology and sociology andcognitive science.
And then when we get intoneuroscience or neuro marketing,
it's again how people makedecisions, the shortcuts that
(16:08):
the mental shortcuts, theshortcuts that their brains use,
the biases that we all have.
So they're all related.
As you get into neuro marketing, a lot of times what you find
is the discussion will go moretowards literally observing
people's brain, So maybe puttingthem into fMRI machines or
attaching them to differentequipment so you can measure
their galvanic skin response,which is basically their
(16:30):
perspiration, and things likethat.
But it's all part and parcel ofthe same field of study, which
is basically just how peoplerespond, why we do what we do,
the mental shortcuts that wetake, the biases and the
heuristics that we have.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah, it's really interesting.
I could see how behavioralscience is a broader umbrella
that encompasses many things,including neuro marketing, so
that made a lot of sense.
So I think a lot of listenersare thinking, okay, i get it,
but how, exactly?
like?
what are the first steps I cando outside of calling you up and
hiring you to be able toimplement these best practices
(17:09):
in our work?
And one of the things that,before we began the interview,
we were talking about, some ofthe things we wanna cover today.
One of them that you brought upwas to understand how your
customers and prospects reallymake decisions, and I think, as
we live in a digital world, thisbecomes even more fascinating.
When people are on your digitalproperties, what are the
(17:30):
triggers?
But I wanna take a step back.
I mean, how would you for allthe businesses listening who
think they understand how theircustomers and prospects are
making decisions?
but I'm assuming that when youpose this question, that they
got it all wrong.
So I'm curious as to what isthat decision making process
that people or companies areundertaking when they are
deciding on whether or not tobuy your product or service.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Sure.
So I think a lot of times weassume that people make well
thought out, well considereddecisions, that they're making
choices based on their wants ortheir needs, or the research
they've done or their pastexperiences, and all of that is
true to a certain extent, butvery often there are other
factors at play, factors thatpeople aren't even aware of.
The research shows that up to95% of purchase decision making
(18:15):
actually takes place in thesubconscious mind, and the
reason for this is it would bevirtually impossible for people
to weigh every bit ofinformation before making a
decision.
We just never get around tomaking it or to making any.
So what we've done as humans iswe've developed certain
automatic, instinctive,reflexive responses, certain
hardwired behaviors, and what itallows us to do is kind of
(18:36):
cruise along through life onautopilot.
We encounter a certainsituation and we can just
default to these hardwiredbehaviors, giving them little,
if any, thought.
So one example is people have atendency to choose the middle
option.
If you put three things infront of somebody, it's like you
just gravitate towards themiddle one, not all the time
Most popular right.
But yeah, or if you see, mostpopular or one thing is social.
(18:59):
I'm not social proof, socialproof would be most popular The
idea of loss aversion.
Behavioral scientists havefound that people are twice as
motivated to avoid the pain ofloss as they are to achieve the
pleasure of gain.
So what that would suggest tous as marketers is we wanna put
a little bit of loss aversioninto our messages.
Instead of saying, hey, takeadvantage of this, we might
wanna say don't miss out on this.
So it's little things like that.
(19:21):
And in marketing we think it'sall about the benefits.
And I don't wanna tell yourlisteners to avoid benefits.
We know that they work, wedon't wanna avoid them.
But a little bit of well-placedloss aversion can go a long way
, because as much as people likebenefits and gains and
advantages, what they like evenmore is avoiding mistakes,
avoiding losses, avoidingmissteps.
So it's how we serve up ourmessages.
(19:42):
We wanna get the right messageto the right person at the right
time.
That old chest not right.
But we wanna do it in the rightway.
We wanna do it in a way that'sbrain-friendly, a way that's
gonna be most likely to getsomeone's attention, to make
sure that they understand themessage, to make sure that they
remember it and they act upon it, and behavioral science will
help us do that.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
So it's really just this form of thinking that
should permeate how we write ourcopy, how we write our
advertising, the email subjectline.
It really should go into all ofthat.
It should be one of these toolsin our mind And, if we follow
what you just said, that's gonnahelp us be a little bit more
effective in everything we do.
Basically, right.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Yeah, it's just remembering that people are
making decisions and they'rebeing influenced in ways they're
not even aware of.
So we can ask our customers andprospects why did you do that?
And they'll tell us what theyhonestly believe.
I mean, they're not trying tomislead us, but what's turned
out is what research has shownis that sometimes they don't
even know that they'reinfluenced by something and they
don't even know why.
(20:39):
There was a research study thatwas done in Leicester, england,
which is about an hour and 10minutes northwest of London if
you're taking the train, andthere was a wine shop there, and
what they did is they playednothing but German music in the
background and they watched as73% of the customers purchased
German wine.
And then they changed the music.
They played nothing but Frenchmusic in the background.
They watched as 77% of thecustomers purchased French wine.
(21:02):
But here's where it getsinteresting, neil.
They asked people well, why didyou buy the wine?
you did?
Nobody mentioned there arevirtually nobody mentioned the
music.
I think maybe one person did.
Now, clearly, there wassomething at play there.
If you heard the German music,you were predisposed to buy
German wine.
If you heard the French, youwere gravitating towards the
French wine, and so that's agreat example of the fact that
we make decisions.
(21:22):
We think we know why we're doingthem, but there are other
factors at play that areinfluencing us And, as marketers
, if we can remember that, wecan start to use it to our
advantage As marketers.
At first we might be terrifiedand we hear that, well, like oh
my God, i have no control, likeeverything I'm trying to do, it
turns out that it may not workbecause there are these other
factors.
But what it really means is, asmarketers, we should harness
those other factors and use whatscience has proven about human
(21:45):
behavior in order to influenceit, in order to get the response
that we're looking for, or atleast to increase the likelihood
that we'll get that response.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah, it makes so much sense because I think, as
marketers, we tend to be toomuch focused on us instead of
them, right?
And as we focus on them, whatare those Psychological triggers
?
and I want to, i want to bringup the next question, which is
you say that there are theseautomatic hardware behaviors
that people have and that thereare easy ways to trigger them.
(22:14):
So I'm really curious as to howwe can all take advantage of
that in our marketing.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Sure, okay.
So you know.
one way is, you know, this ideaof loss aversion instead of
saying take advantage of, yousay Don't miss.
So that that's one way.
We talked a little bit aboutsocial proof, you know, don't
just say we've got the product,talk about how many other people
are enjoying the product.
You know, one way is the ideaof something known as choice
architecture.
In choice architecture, verysimply, is How choices are
(22:39):
presented, because the waychoices are presented actually
influences how people respond tothem.
And you know, you might thinkwell, you know, choices of
choices of choice, whatdifference does it make?
But how you display something,how you offer something, can
make a difference.
We had a client that was Sellinghere we go with insurance again
different kind of insurance,but still insurance, but a
client that was sellinginsurance at the workplace.
(23:00):
So the idea was, it wasvoluntary insurance, you know.
And what they would do is theywould send out an email and they
would say hey, neil, theinsurance representative is
going to be here on Tuesday.
Sign up for an appointment, youcan meet with them, You can
hear about all the new productsthat they have and if you're
interested, you can, you know,you can sign up for one, you
know, totally voluntarily.
But you know up to you and youknow what would happen.
(23:21):
People's eyes would roll backin their heads And very few
people would sign up.
So we use some choicearchitecture.
We sent out an email.
We said hey, neil, theinsurance representative is
going to be here on Tuesday.
We've set up an appointment foryou, at it two o'clock in room
13a.
You know I have to do a show upand you'll be all set.
You can hear all about it Andif you're interested, you can
make a purchase.
And then you know, a little bitfurther down in the email was a
(23:41):
link that said you know, clickhere if you need to reschedule.
And what we experienced was a418% increase in the number of
people showing up right, becausewe used to.
You know, in the past You hadto go through the effort of
signing up.
It was just a lot easier to donothing.
So what we did is we use somechoice architecture to make it
(24:02):
easier to do nothing and show upright.
Like we already set up, themeeting for you would require
more effort to get out of it.
You'd have to reschedule it orsay no, no, i want to cancel it.
We just made it so easy.
And that's how the human brainworks.
You know we take the path ofleast resistance.
We like to do things that areeasy and by using that bit of
choice architecture, we got that418% increase in number of
(24:23):
people showing up, and then thatresulted in a 19% increase in
policies purchased.
So, you know, it headed as youmight imagine more people to
show up, more product.
You're going to move right, youknow So, but it was a simple
little switch and it was, youknow, just changing the way
things had always been done, butchanging it in a way that made,
(24:43):
you know, made sense, as wetook into account how people
make decisions.
You know you don't want to gothrough the effort.
We want to remove as muchfriction or as many barriers as
possible.
We want to make it as easy aspossible.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
So, on that note, what are you know?
you've mentioned sort ofchanging the language Based on,
you know, behavioral science andall these data studies.
What have you?
What are some of the bestphrases and frames?
you've already brought up someof them, but in your mind, what
are the best phrases and framesthat people listening can
utilize to help increaseengagement And response and,
(25:16):
ultimately, conversion?
Speaker 3 (25:17):
sure, So one of them revolves around the notion of
novelty.
So the human brain is ishardwired to seek out the new
and novel, and We do it becausewhen we find something that we
think is new, it releasesdopamine in our brain and that's
a very feel good Chemical,among other things, it just
makes us feel good And so, as aresult, we're constantly
jonesing for that next state ofdopamine.
We're constantly looking forthe next new thing.
(25:37):
So anytime we can use new now,introducing, announcing, finally
, soon.
If you're looking for a verb,go with discover, don't use
learn.
Learn sounds like a lot of work.
I have to learn this and you're.
You know, you're all the wayback in second grade math class
And you want to be outside, atresearch or recess rather, but
you're stuck inside with yournose in a book.
You know, but discover.
(25:58):
Well, that sounds like fun,right, you know.
So, discover this, find outthis, gain this.
Explorer.
Yes, you know, just this wholeidea of novelty is a wonderful
thing.
Another great word to use is theword you, and you reference
something.
A little bit earlier You saidyou know we.
We talk a lot about ourselvesand you know business.
We talk about our products, ourcompany, our service, and the
truth of the matter is that'snot nearly as is interesting to
(26:21):
To our readers or to ourlisteners, as the word you.
So, as people are skimming andscanning, they kind of gloss
over I, we all are our company,but when they see the word you,
they zero in on it because yourepresents them and we're way
more interested in ourselvesThan in anyone else.
So if we can use the word you,that's, that's really really
good.
Another powerful word is theword secrets, and the word
(26:43):
secrets is so powerful becauseParable scientists have shown
that people are actually morepersuaded by information They
believe is not widely available,and the secret would absolutely
represent information That'snot widely available.
So too would a sneak peek orthe behind the scenes look, or
the real truth or the factsbehind.
You know, anytime we can use aword or a phrase that conveys
(27:06):
the idea that we haveinformation that not everyone
else has, people will gravitatetowards that it's.
It goes back to the idea ofscarcity, you know where.
We're just more motivated bythings that are in short supply,
and that's something that'shardwired into us Since I think
back in our caveman days, rightWhere our ancient ancestors,
would you know, would have to befinding the things that would
sustain life, and you know Wewould would hoard anything that
(27:28):
was important to us.
You know it's like.
You know there's only so manyresources to go around.
We have to get ours and thenthey'll be gone if we don't, you
know.
So this idea of scarcity ishardwired into us.
Maybe it kept us alive way backthen.
Now, you know it's just a ashortcut that we use as we
navigate through the day, and ifwe find information that we
think is scarce, right, it'slittle known, it's a secret We
pay attention, we're much morelikely to.
(27:50):
I'll give you one more.
You have time for one more.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Oh, this is awesome.
Yeah, this is great, keep goingsure, sure.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
So another real powerful word that we can use is
the word because.
And um, there's a researcherthat came out of Harvard, her
name is Ellen Langer, and sheidentified the word because as
an automatic compliance trigger.
Essentially, when we see or hearit, we just start to nod up and
down, we start to agree, we'rein this agreeable mindset Before
we've even processed what comesnext.
(28:16):
So she ran this experiment.
There are a bunch of peoplethat were lined up to use a
photocopier.
She sent someone to the head ofthe line and she instructed
them to say excuse me, can I cutin front of you?
And 60 percent of the time sixzero 60 percent of the time they
were allowed to cut.
So that's our baseline.
Now she repeats the experimenta second time, but this time she
instructs the person to go tothe front of the line and say
excuse me, can I cut in front ofyou because I'm in a hurry and
(28:37):
have some copies to make?
Well, the 60 percent numberjumps to 94 percent.
And as I tell you this new, youmight say well, they said they
were in a hurry.
But Langer repeats theexperiment one last time,
instructs a person to go to thehead of line and say, excuse me,
can I cut in front of youbecause I have some copies to
make?
the 94 percent number drops to93 percent.
1 percent drops Statisticallyinsignificant, still that same
(28:58):
huge lift over the baseline 60.
Now think about it.
Everybody's standing in thatline.
We're standing in that linebecause they had some copies to
make, right?
They don't stand in line at thephotocopier to get a coffee.
It doesn't work that way.
Right?
She identified the word because, as an automatic compliance
trigger, when we see it, when wehear it, we're just agreeing.
We don't even process whatcomes next.
It's like you get to the wordbecause and we figure it's a
(29:20):
good, legitimate reason.
So what that suggests to us asmarketers is we want to provide
the reason why we're askingpeople to do what we're asking
them to do, and the better thereason.
Well, the better the reason.
But it doesn't have to be thisironclad, bullet proof reason.
It doesn't have to be you know,buy my product and you'll
become a millionaire.
Great, if we could say it.
But very few of us can makethat kind of a claim.
(29:41):
So just close the circle.
Explain why somebody should dowhat we're asking them to.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
That's really fascinating.
I'm thinking that one takeawayfor everyone listening could be
these sort of trigger phrasesthat you talked about.
Almost make notes of them andput them like stick them on the
wall around you So that when youare writing copy, you can
always be referencing them right.
Obviously, everyone should bebuying a copy of using
behavioral science and marketing, but I want to finish this
conversation.
You know when we last met up acontent marketing role.
(30:07):
This is September and oh my, howthe marketing world has changed
.
We've always had AI, right.
We've always had tools likeJasper, but obviously just this
emergence of chat, gpt and themainstream way in which AI is
really like the internet itselfdid two decades ago.
So you mentioned some of thesetrigger phrases.
It's really interesting becauseoriginally the title for this
(30:28):
podcast or this live streamhowever you're consuming this
content was using behavioralscience and marketing.
So I put this through vidIQ,which is a YouTube tool which
also, like every other tool, hassome AI capabilities.
So it came back with a titlethat I thought was really great
The truth about behavioralscience and marketing.
Parentheses hint, it'sfascinating, close parentheses.
(30:52):
So I'm just really curious,nancy, from your perspective.
With this emergence of AI, italmost seems like there's gotta
be a way.
I don't think you can hard codeit, but there's gotta be a way.
There's gotta be a tool or someprocesses together with these
AI tools, with certain prompts,that can lead us to the sort of
(31:12):
verbates that you're talkingabout, that sort of a hack,
right?
I'm really curious as towhether or not you think that's
possible, because AI really itgets at the core of sort of
behavioral science, i suppose.
But what is your take on this?
And if there was anyrecommendations you had whether
to use a tool or not to use atool, i think this would really
be invaluable advice coming fromsomeone that specializes in
this.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Yeah, you know, it adds to the million dollar
question, i think, and it is onethat I've been thinking about.
So I suppose at some point itis theoretically possible for
the AI to know about thesebehavioral science prompts and
to begin to incorporate theminto the copy that it puts out.
That said, at this stage of thegame, there are a couple of
(31:53):
things we need to keep in mind.
One is that the empathy thathumans can add to writing isn't
quite there yet with AI.
The other is, i think theknowledge base stops at 2021.
Is that right, correct?
Speaker 1 (32:07):
I think GPT-4 has brought it forward a little bit,
but yeah, it's still behind forsure.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
So there's gonna be a little bit lacking.
And then Christopher Gravesfrom Ogilvy ran an experiment
where he was asking about aparticular behavioral science
principle And he asked AI togenerate some information.
And he said what he got backwas really very interesting and
very detailed, and it had all ofthese citations, and he was
(32:31):
like, oh, it's really cool.
He was amazed, and so then hestarted to check the citations
and he couldn't seem to findthem.
So he asked AI did you makethese up?
Are they real?
And the response was yes, imade them up.
And so he was like well, that'sa problem.
You can't be citing citationsthat don't exist, particularly
for science.
And so there are still a fewthings we need to worry about or
(32:54):
be cautious about, but in thefuture, i certainly can see
behavioral science being part ofmany things that artificial
intelligence pulls in to craftthe copy that we're looking for.
At this stage of the game, idon't think we're quite there,
but, as you said, things arechanging so rapidly.
Who knows Just.
I mean, the sky's the limit, itseems.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yeah, and what I'm seeing and I'm sure you've seen
it as well, nancy with all thedifferent AI tools, they all
have different implementations.
They all deliver differentresults.
So the vidIQ model or databaseis looking at YouTube titles
that probably perform reallywell and trying to replicate
them right, and obviously maybea lot of people have read your
book and that's what.
So I can see how that gotingested.
When I do the same thing inanother tool, i'll get different
(33:38):
results that aren't, as to me,as good, but then again, it's
also, i suppose, on the otherend, nancy, it's a human
decision.
At the end of the day, you havethree different results from
the AI.
Which one do you use?
It's gonna come down to howwell you understand these
principles, so we'll never be100% relying on all this, right.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
Right.
but it's a great tool to helpus test, to surface ideas, to
test to surface suggestions.
And I mean, i can certainly seea situation or a scenario where
we say here's what the problemis, what are the most likely
behavioral science principlesthat would make sense to try to
get out there to overcome thisproblem?
And so it could kind of shortcircuit some of the research
(34:17):
we're doing and maybe give ussome ideas about how to craft
something.
And then, of course, we cankind of pop it in finesse and
edit.
If you think about the book thatI just wrote, it's got a lot of
research in it which I didn'tdo.
It's got some case studies,many of which I worked on, some
of which I referenced.
but then it also has somepersonal anecdotes And you could
(34:38):
argue that if you fed this intoAI, they could probably pull
the research, although it may ormay not have been accurate, but
they could probably pull theresearch studies.
they could probably pull thecase studies.
but what an artificialintelligence source couldn't do
was write the book that I wrote,because I pulled my own
personal experiences, my ownobservations, things that
happened to me that justwouldn't be out there, and I
think that's a book, but as wetalk about marketing, some of
(35:01):
that human element is still veryimportant to making the sale,
and that's something that, atthis stage of the game, you're
only getting from humans.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
And the human connection as well, right, And
then this goes back into thepsychology and Dr Chaldini.
But yeah, it's reallyfascinating just seeing how this
is all evolving.
And I agree with you I mean,even Google has said it's not
about expertise, authority andtrustworthiness, it's also about
experience, right, I have twohigh school age kids and my wife
has a word like oh, everyone'sgonna use chat.
You can write these greatessays, But at the end of the
(35:30):
day, if you're writing like acollege admission essay, you
have to talk about yourexperience, right, And you have
to go deep on it.
And I think a reader that ishuman is gonna be able to see.
As I grade papers for my UCLAExtension class in Influenza
Marketing, I'm trying to see arethere sort of like unnatural,
like sentences here that clearlylook like they're written from
AI, or are they basing it ontheir own project?
(35:51):
So I do have faith that and Ido believe there will be tools
that will help us as well as wego forward.
Nancy, But this has just been afascinating and really, to me,
fun conversation.
I love having conversationswith smart marketers who, I mean
, we go beyond data driven toreally science driven marketing,
which, to me is just this wholeother field that is so untapped
, as you know.
So keep preaching, keep goingforward.
(36:13):
Obviously everyone listening.
Nancy Harhut, you should go outand buy the book wherever fine
books are sold.
Using behavioral science andmarketing, drive customer action
and loyalty by promptinginstinctive responses.
Cogun Page, excellent publisherout of the United Kingdom.
Nancy, where else can people goto find out more about you and
to engage with you?
Speaker 3 (36:33):
Well, thank you, great question.
You know I'm on Twitter at andHarhut, I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on
Facebook And the agency that Ico-founded, HBT Marketing, which
stands for Human BehaviorTriggers, is at hbtmktgcom And
you can find some of the stuffI've written, some other
interviews I've been on at thatwebsite, So I would love to hear
from your listeners.
You know, drop me a line,connect with me on social, Be
(36:56):
happy to engage.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
That is awesome, nancy, and because I use an AI
tool that whenever we talk aboutlinks and show notes, it will
know to get those wwwcom URLs,we'll make sure automatically
that those links are in the shownotes.
Thank you, but, nancy, this hasbeen great.
Thank you so much.
I can't wait to run into youagain at the next marketing
conference.
I'm sure it won't be long.
Best of success and thanksagain for joining.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Thank you so much for having me.
I look forward to running intoyou again as well, but thank you
, this was terrific.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
All right, i hope you enjoyed that interview as much
as I did, is it, nancy?
Just a wealth of informationand advice at a extremely high
level of understanding ofbehavioral science.
So it's a very, very uniqueniche, but I think you can see
why she is so popular on theSpeaking Circuit and her
bestselling book of all thatknowledge.
(37:44):
So definitely, if you'reinterested in finding out more,
i hope you will reach out to her.
If you need more help with yourdigital content influence of
social media marketing.
I don't talk a lot about this inthe podcast, but I help
businesses and entrepreneurs andstartup founders, content
creators, in a variety of ways,but primarily I have a monthly
(38:07):
group mastermind called DigitalFirst, where we meet on weekly
Zoom calls.
It is limited to 15 people tomaintain high quality And right
now we are actually at that 15person cap.
But if you go to nealshafercomslash membership, you can also
sign up to be on the waitinglist for when we have an opening
.
I also offer moreindividualized, personal,
fractional CMO consultingservices.
(38:29):
These are done for as little asone hour a week on a three
month contract, so obviously aservice like this is going to be
customized to what your needsare will be more expensive than
the group mastermind, but ifthat is something that is
interesting as well, you can goto nealshafercom, slash, cmo And
you know what.
If you're not ready for eitherof those and you just enjoy
(38:49):
listening to this podcast, it'sabsolutely free.
But if you were to share thison your socials with a
screenshot, give it a five starranking on whatever app you're
listening to and, you know,write a little review of one or
two sentences, it would reallymake my day, and that,
ultimately, is the ROI ofcreating these podcasts for your
ears.
Listening pleasure.
(39:10):
All right, everybody.
That's another wrap for anotherepisode of the original
marketing coach podcast.
This is your digital marketingcoach, neil Schaefer, signing
off.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
You've been listening to your digital marketing coach
.
Questions, comments, requests,links.
Go to podcastnealshafercom Getthe show notes to this and 200
plus podcast episodes andnealshafercom to tap into the
400 plus blog posts that Neilhas published to support your
(39:41):
business.
While you're there, check outNeil's digital first group
coaching membership community Ifyou or your business needs a
little helping hand.
See you next time on yourdigital marketing coach.
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