March 6, 2025 • 31 mins
A century ago, in March 1925, Charles G. Dawes was sworn in as vice president of the United States. Being elected vice president of the United States — as Dawes was, alongside Calvin Coolidge, in a landslide — is usually a career pinnacle for an American politician, but Dawes’ vice presidency turned out to be more of a footnote in his eventful life. In the second part of this two-part podcast series — presented by nCino — Dawes biographer Annette Dunlap explores Dawes’ service as head of logistics for the American Expeditionary Force in World War I (an organizational feat never before pulled off in American military history), his work in international diplomacy during the 1920s, his vice presidency under Calvin Coolidge and how he engineered a bailout for his troubled bank in the throes of the Great Depression.
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Annette Dunlap (00:01):
Charley becomes head of a brand new agency that Congress
has created, today we call it theOffice of Management and Budget.
But what this office was going todo was oversee the budgets and the
expenditures of all of the variousexecutive departments and Charley, he'd
(00:24):
fit right in with the administrations.
He could probably get a seat onthis new efficiency committee that
may be established because I titledthat chapter in the book, the Axe
wielder because he goes in and hechops what he thinks are spurious,
unnecessary and duplicative expenses.
Evan Sparks (00:45):
From the American Bankers Association, welcome back
to the A BA Banking Journal podcast.
I'm Evan Sparks.
Today's episode is presented by nCino.
Today we're gonna continue ourconversation with Annette Dunlap,
the biographer of Charles Dawes,vice President of the United States
under Calvin Coolidge, Nobel PeacePrize Laureate, and one of America's
most prominent bankers in thefirst half of the 20th century.
(01:08):
If you listen to part one of the podcastlast week, you heard about his early
life, his experience as comptroller ofthe currency, and only in his thirties
under President William McKinley and hisrise to influence as one of the leaders
of Chicago's banking set financial sector.
And now let's pick up the story withCharley Dawes during the Great War.
(01:29):
You know, you mentioned raising fundsfor World War One, and I'd like to
kind of move, move ahead to that, tothis part, this new phase of public
service in his career, he he, when the,when war breaks out, when the United
States joins World War One, We he wantsto, he decides he's going to join up.
He didn't, he didn't have, hedidn't, hadn't served previously.
(01:49):
Did not serve during the warof the Spanish American war,
which was the only previous warduring his, his adult lifetime.
So what, why does he decideto join the join the army?
And what does he, what does hesee as his, the thing that he can
contribute during his service?
Annette Dunlap (02:05):
Well, as far as why at the age of 51 with two children,
I can't remember if they had adoptedtheir other two children at that
point or not, but so, you know, withtwo children and a wife, why he wants
to go ahead and join the militaryenlist, mind you, not asked to be, you
(02:25):
know, given an officer's commission,but just go in as a rank private.
God only knows what wasbehind that decision.
And hats off to his wife, Kara.
We're not just throwing him out ofthe house because I can only imagine
what the conversation may or may nothave been, but he enlists and pretty
(02:49):
quickly it's discovered that, youknow, this is just no ordinary guy.
who has come down here to serve, andone of the things that benefits Charley
is that General John Pershing has beenmade head of the American Expeditionary
Force, and Charley and John Pershinggo way back to their Nebraska days.
(03:11):
That's where they met.
And so and of course, Charley haspolitical ties in Washington, so.
It probably goes withoutsaying that he wasn't going to
remain private for very long.
But once he's on Pershing's radar screenand Pershing gets a sense of what has
to be done once they get into Europe andthey see what is happening there, he taps
(03:36):
Charley to become what is essentially,you know, the overall quartermaster.
He's the person who is responsible forsecuring all the necessary supplies.
And when I say all the necessarysupplies, I'm talking about everything.
I am talking about food for the troops,material to build shelters for the
(03:58):
troops, gasoline for the The jeepsand the tanks, I should point out
that this is the first mechanized warthat the United States has been in.
So you're now talking about dealingwith machinery and having to keep
that machinery maintained and havingto keep fuel for that machinery.
But we also still haven't gottenrid of the jeeps and animals.
(04:23):
So you also have to take careof horses and feed horses and
house horses and care for horses.
And Charley is responsible forthe entirety of the war material
that is necessary for the UnitedStates to prosecute the war.
And then he also, has to start dealingwith the French and British allies,
(04:44):
which proves to be not as simple and aseasy as one would think, because there
are nationalistic attitudes about eachcountry and the sense of superiority on
the part of the other countries, becausethe United States is the late comer,
but we're the ones with the money andwe're the ones who are way less exhausted
than the French and the British troops.
(05:06):
There has to be a lot of Negotiating alot of kissing of certain body parts to
to really start to get along with theFrench and the British and, you know,
truly make it a truly allied commandso that they're not working across
purposes in their attempts to procurethe materials that they need to have.
Evan Sparks (05:27):
And it's, it's also stunning to think about, you know,
and looking through his journals andall of the things that he's doing, you
know, because he published his journalsfrom the, from the war, you know, he's
going, this is the first time the UnitedStates has ever fought a land war.
Overseas.
Correct.
You know, we'd, we'd had the Mexicanwar, but that's, you know, basically
(05:48):
on our border, you know, and there,and obviously the Spanish American
war had involved, like, you know,conflict in the Philippines, but
that's like naval engagements and,you know, not truly bringing your
expeditionary force across an oceanand saying, we are going to fight.
fight here.
And because you couldn't.
You've got, you know, you know.
You know, you vote threats.
(06:08):
You're having a you're having difficultyshipping supplies over all of that,
these incredible logistical challenges.
Well, he seems like someonewho's just has this.
who is able to take this extraordinaryskill in business and figure out
how to apply it into very differentmech, in very different places in
(06:31):
ways that are still very effectiveat getting, getting the job done.
Annette Dunlap (06:35):
Yes, absolutely.
And, and it's also helpful that heknows how to build friendships with.
his fellow soldiers.
So he becomes very close friendswith General James Habbard,
who is very helpful to him.
Of course, he's got the closerelationship with John Pershing.
That's just golden.
And he has to work his way in to becomefriends with the French and with the
(06:59):
British and try to find ways to assuagetheir egos and their senses of superiority
that could very easily just undermineand derail any efforts to become a
truly allied expeditionary force.
So it's not just using his incrediblelogistical skills and his acumen at
(07:24):
figuring out how to make the differentmoving parts work and work together,
but there is an incredible amount ofdiplomacy that has to be a part of that.
And it's a, it was a tremendous,tremendous accomplishment.
And really, You know, he almost neededto be a fly on the wall in some of
these meetings to understand thestresses that he was under in order
(07:45):
to get agreements from the otherallies, from the other countries, and
then find ways to make it all work.
That and that alone if that was all hehad ever done, that by, could stand by
itself as a phenomenal accomplishment.
Evan Sparks (08:03):
So he, so he comes back and he's obviously very influential
in Republican politics by this point.
Harding becomes president in 1921.
What is what is Charleymost interested in doing?
What's he kind of in the mix forin the new Harding administration
alongside the other, the many other,you know, influential Republican
business leaders, politicians whoare kind of jockeying for jobs,
Annette Dunlap (08:24):
right?
So, you know, he doesn't get thejob of secretary of the treasury,
which is actually what he hadhoped he might be able to get
in the McKinley administration.
So in the Harding,
Evan Sparks (08:34):
I have to say that seemed a little, he's in his thirties.
He wants to be treasury secretaryin the McKinley administration.
He'd never, you know, That seemed a littleambitious when I read that in the book.
Annette Dunlap (08:45):
Hey, look, like I said, the guy is not shy, you know?
He has no problems with promoting himself.
You gotta give him credit, you know?
A lot of self esteem, good for him.
Evan Sparks (09:00):
All right, okay, so we're back to the, so we're here at the
Harding administration and he wants tobe treasury secretary once again, so.
Annette Dunlap (09:06):
Right, and that's not going to happen.
It's kind of, you know, Charley iswonderful, but it's kind of hard to
compare yourself to Andrew Mellon.
And, you know, again, you could makethe case of, okay, it's the East Coast
versus the Midwest, which probablythere's a certain amount of truth to.
to that, and there would have beenmore confidence on the part of the
(09:26):
East Coast bankers to see Andrew Mellonin that position, which he was in.
But Charley becomes head of a brandnew agency that Congress has created,
and it's it, today we call it theOffice of Management and Budget, so
I'll just use the, the current term.
But what this office was going todo was oversee the budgets and the
(09:50):
expenditures of all of the variousexecutive departments and Charley, he'd
fit right in with the administrations.
He could probably get a seat on thisnew efficiency committee that may
be established because I titled thatchapter in the book, the Axe wielder
(10:12):
because he goes in and he chops whathe thinks are, you know, spurious,
unnecessary and duplicative expenses.
And his whole point is to makesure that the budget of the
United States is balanced.
And by God, it was.
I should say that he stayed in thatposition for one year he did well
with it, but he didn't like it.
(10:33):
He really wanted to get back homeand he wanted to get back to Chicago.
So he serves in that, inthat slot for, for a year.
And then he goes back tohis, his banking life.
Evan Sparks (10:43):
And so he's not, he's not in Chicago for very long before
he gets called on to deal with thiscrisis unfolding in Europe, where
we have the you know, Germany isthe German economy is struggling
after the war, they owe reparationsunder the Treaty of Versailles,
fairly punitive treaty for Germany.
And.
They're not paying.
(11:04):
They can't pay them.
France then invades the Ruhr, which totry and say, "hey, well, okay, if you
can't pay, we'll take over this, yourindustrial heartland." But then that makes
it even extra hard for Germany to pay.
How does Dawes gets tappedto go and deal with this?
What can you talk about kind of thesolution that he comes up with here for
comes up with here for the reparations,the German reparations crisis?
Annette Dunlap (11:28):
Right.
Well, Dawes name is actuallyis applied to the solution.
It's called the Dawes plan, butin fairness, not only to him,
which I think he would want,but also to the other people.
This was truly a committee,a group, a work of committee.
His brother Rufus was with him as was,and I can't remember all the names,
(11:48):
but I want to say one of them was thehead of the arts of RCA company and
there was another top businessman andthere was actually two separate groups.
One was going to be looking at thefinancial side and one of it and the
other group I think was going to belooking at just the restoration side.
So Charley's on the financialend of this of course.
(12:09):
So It's just just to kind of putsome quick background into this.
So first, it should be noted thatthe United States was not a signatory
to the Treaty of Versailles Wilsonwas not successful in getting
that push through the Senate.
That's a whole different political story.
For why that happened.
The second thing is that you had peopleat the time, Bernard Baruch being one
(12:32):
of them who said that, you know, thepunitive requirements of the Versailles
Treaty were just going to start anotherwar, you know, again, a somewhat prophetic
stance on what actually did happen.
So yes, what happens is you've gotFrance and Britain really just expecting
Germany to pay every Just every lastounce of financial blood they can
(13:00):
for the damage that was wreaked inFrance and secondarily in England.
France of course sustained the mostdamage, you know, their farmlands,
their became the battlefields.
Their industries are destroyed.
They pretty much have to completelyrebuild and they think that France,
excuse me, that Germany has fullresponsibility for paying for this.
(13:21):
But the problem is Germany'sown industry is destroyed.
And so they are not beinggiven any up because of the
The rules that are being have beenimposed on Germany in terms of how it's
going to engage in international trade.
It's really not able to makemoney in order to repay this war
(13:47):
debt that has been put on it.
So there has to be someway to renegotiate.
this treaty so that, number one, Germany'sallowed to actually make money and keep
some of it to rebuild its industry, andthen, B, pay France and England what
needs to be paid back to France andEngland for the war reparations, and I
(14:09):
should point in there that it doesn'tget talked about a lot, but a lot of
the money that needed to get paid backto England and France Also had to get
paid back to the United States becausewe had issued those bonds that you and I
mentioned a little earlier, and those werebonds that were supposed to be repaid.
(14:30):
And so this money from the reparationsgo, you know, would be funneled through
France and England, but then thosecountries had a debt to us for the way
we helped finance their war effort.
So it's a very complicated system.
It basically creates this like triangle.
Evan Sparks (14:48):
Right.
You know, like much capital flowsin this weird triangle that doesn't.
And then, spoiler alert, youknow, world war two breaks out.
Right.
You know, it's like, yeah, youknow, you've got, so he wins the
Nobel prize for the Dawes plan.
And he's, he's kind of savesthe day for the moment.
You know, later on as ambassador tothe United Kingdom under the Hoover
(15:09):
administration, he is involved inhelping with a new plan to deal
with allied war debt and German andreparations and called the young plan.
I think is that what the youngplan he's involved with that.
And I, and this is where I, you know,again, he's present at the creation of all
these institutions today because he's, youknow, that's the plan that results in the
(15:31):
Bank for International Settlements, whichtoday is like basically, you know, doesn't
deal with settlements of war debt anymore.
It deals with the integration of global.
Bank financial system through thebasel committee on banking supervision
and the financial stability board.
So it's an incredibly influentialOrganization to this day that he's kind
of there, you know involved with thecreation of like once again but one of
(15:54):
the things you point out in the book islike he spends all this time we have,
you know disarmament talks, treaties,trying to, you know, negotiations over
disarmament that when he's vice presidentunder Calvin Coolidge he is involved in
all of these efforts to kind of builda sustainable peace during the 1920s.
And they all come crumblingdown in the early 1930s.
(16:16):
Did he, what, what didhe think about that?
What did he think about all of thiseffort that he had spent as a diplomat
trying to create trying to prevent theoutbreak of war, of a new war in Europe.
Annette Dunlap (16:27):
Well, I think it grieved him.
And I think it's also interesting toknow that he was friends with Herbert
Hoover, who had been involved withfeeding Europe after the war, he
was feeding Belgium during the war.
And then he was feedingEurope after the war.
And he, and one of the things thathappened when Charley was trying
to wrap things up with the Americanexpeditionary forces is that Hoover
(16:50):
steps in and says, look, you know, giveme all this food that you've got so
that I can start feeding these peoplebecause if you don't feed these people,
they're going to get angry and war'sgoing to break out all over again.
So you have Charley serving a presidentof the United States because he's, as
you point out, he's ambassador to GreatBritain under the Hoover administration.
You have two men that physically, livedthrough the horrors of World War I.
(17:16):
They were in Europe, they saw what wasgoing on, and then they're watching the
entirety of all of their efforts crumble.
And it's just, it's a very, verygrievous, grievous, painful process.
You don't see very much on Charley'send in terms of trying to undertake
methods to forestall another conflict,whereas Hoover spends quite a bit of
(17:39):
time trying to rehabilitate himself,but also promote himself as a peacemaker
through works that he is writing.
But Charley of course, part of the reasonwhy Charley doesn't get as involved
with attempts to forestall conflict isbecause of what's happening in the United
States with it, with the banking, withthe collapse of the banking system and
(17:59):
the collapse of his bank in Chicago.
Evan Sparks (18:03):
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So I wanna go back to this part ofDawes' life when he returns to Chicago.
(18:43):
He's at this point done withhis public service career.
The great depression is breaking out.
We're beginning to see lots of strain.
We're continuing to see lots of strainsin the banking system and he's heads
up the restoration reconstructionfinance corporation, which is exists
kind of as a, I mean, doing what thefederal reserve should have been doing,
you know, in making these, Makingloans to, financial institutions that
(19:05):
are experiencing liquidity crunches.
We talked about like, that's whatthe discount window is there for.
That's what eventually thefederal home loan bank is system
is created to do that as well.
For its members, what is and hedoes that for three months and then
he's has to head back to Chicago.
What happens in Chicago and howdoes he manage the crisis for
his bank in during the, you know,The crisis period of 1932 1933.
Annette Dunlap (19:29):
Right.
So he had as you said, hisbank is starting to fail.
And, you know, to go back to a personwe named a little bit earlier, Samuel
Insull, Samuel Insull stock priceis starting to tank, the relative
value of his company is decreasingdramatically almost on a day to day basis.
(19:50):
He has gotten in over his head in termsof borrowing money in order to keep the,
basically the electric utility going.
Part of the reason for what happensis because Samuelson brings his
brother along and his brother is notas conservative financially as he is.
And the whole.
(20:10):
Ensel's whole empire just collapses moreor less in one day when his stock price
just drops almost virtually to zero.
Which also means that he no longerhas the assets with which to pay
Charley for the loans that hehas taken out from Central Trust.
So, Samuel, instead of manningup, takes a boat to Europe.
(20:35):
And disappears, and he just leavesCharley with trying to figure out
how to keep his own bank solvent inthe wake of the default of one of
his absolutely largest creditors.
And this is where Charley goes to,to the RFC, reconstruction Finance
Corporation, and asks for a loan.
Well, of course, there is a lot ofdiscussion about that because Charley has
(20:59):
just left that organization and there'sthis feeling that it's sort of, you know
patronage in a way that is not acceptable.
And, but the they spend allweekend on the phone asking for
the loan, negotiating for the loan.
Herbert Hoover finally getsinvolved and says, yes, go
ahead and give them the loan.
(21:19):
And Hoover ultimately makes a speechas part of his campaign on why
he needed to go ahead and approvethis loan because it was important.
To the overall financial well being ofthe entire city of Chicago, which in fact
it was because if central trust had gonebelly up, there's fairly good evidence
that nearly every bank that was in theChicago loop was going to go belly up
(21:43):
as well because central trust was thestrongest bank in that set of banks.
So Charley, you know, calling on thingspractices that he had used back when
he was first getting his financialempire going did a reorganization.
And so he reorganizes thedeposits of his of his customers.
He eliminates a couple of servicesthat have proved to be non profitable.
(22:07):
And he keeps the bank closed for acouple of days and then he reopens under
a new charter and under a new name.
And, you know, prettymuch has been successful.
He has to do one more reorganization,but then ultimately he is
successful in his new name.
Keeping the bank solvent and keeping thebank operational all through the Great
Depression which in turn helped otherloop banks to be able to stay successful.
Evan Sparks (22:34):
So and so I want to come back, I want to go back to his
government service because I think itwas interesting to follow the story
of his diplomatic career, which ispunctuated in the middle, 1925 to 1929.
By being the 30th vicepresident of the United States.
And again, I guess I said at thebeginning, it's kind of, you know,
in terms of influence and power,you know, it's kind of ranks.
(22:58):
like maybe number four or five on hiscareer in terms of the offices he held
and the influence he had . One of hissuccessors as vice president James Nance
Garner, who is for FDR, his first vicepresident said and I'm going to sanitize
this for our, our G rated podcast here.
You know, the the vice presidencyisn't worth a bucket of warm spit.
And and it, so this was a time whenthe vice president was, you know,
(23:20):
being selected less, more, not evenselected by the presidential nominee.
What was his, you know, he wasjust kind of the party was like,
Hey, let's put this guy on.
He's, you know influential.
Let's wrap up here just by talkingabout his career as vice president.
What did he what did he see as hisrole and how did he contribute during
his years as a, as vice president,as the vice presidential nominee?
Annette Dunlap (23:43):
Well, it's pretty clear from the outset that he did not like being
the vice president of the United States.
His biggest bugaboo, if you will, wasthe cloture rule, which is still under
discussion today because the cloturerule Senate Rule 22a is the filibuster.
The ability for a senator to stand upand talk uninterruptedly for as long
(24:08):
as he is physically able in order toprevent a piece of legislation from
coming to the floor of the Senate.
Charley thought that this was an absolutewaste of taxpayers time and energy.
He went around the country in anattempt to make radio addresses and
public speaking opportunities toinvade against the cloture rule.
(24:30):
And he had absolutely no success.
So he made enemies among the Senators.
Then, he also took a nap when hethought that the Senate wasn't
going to be calling a vote.
On a nominee that Calvin Coolidge wantedto have approved and the vote was tied.
(24:53):
So some people ran to Charley's hotel.
They woke him up.
They got him in a cab.
They physically carried him up the stepsto the Senate to get him into the Senate
chamber in order to break the tie.
Well, between the time that they wentto go get him and the time they managed
to get him back one of the senatorswho had voted yay, decides to change
(25:19):
his vote and vote nay, which means thatnow this person is not a candidate.
Approved.
The Senate has not given its approvalfor him to become, and I can't remember
right now what the office was, buthe, Charley now becomes the the
recipient of Calvin Coolidge's ire.
(25:40):
And so that relationship was not avery good one from the beginning.
By the way, Calvin really didnot like Charley very much.
There wasn't a whole lot ofway for them to become friends.
Evan Sparks (25:54):
And it seemed like the feeling was mutual.
Annette Dunlap (25:56):
Well, yeah, I think so.
Because, you know, Calvin is sort ofa, you read his biography and with
all due respect, he was kind of amean spirited, angry, penurious In
the terms that James McGregor Burnsuses to classify presidents, he is
what we would call a passive negative.
In other words, he really wasn'tsomebody who was going to put
(26:18):
forth legislation and then he had anegative attitude to go on top of it.
And then you got Charley, who's an activepositive, who is, you know, Get out
there, you know, slap backs, shake hands,and, you know, let's get the job done.
And you couldn't find twomore different people.
And one of the things that I thought wasinteresting when I was reading the working
(26:38):
on it is that the two of them could noteven find common cause on the fact that
they had each lost a son, which you wouldthink might have a way of bonding the two
men, but not even that was a possibility.
Evan Sparks (26:53):
I was thinking when you were telling the story about
him sleeping through, you know,sleeping through the Senate, the
vote, like the one fun thing the vicepresident is really needed for, right.
You know, is we, and, and, and thathis big cause as, President as vice
president was trying to reform thecloture system as vice president was
trying to reform the cloture system.
(27:13):
I was just flashing back.
My wife and I have recently been watchingsome older episodes of Veep with Julia
Louis Dreyfus and, and her whole thing isthat she's trying to do filibuster reform.
And I'm like, that is totally somethingthat could have been straight out of
Veep is, you know, the vice president.
It's taking a nap and missingan important ranking vote.
So so we have some echoesof this in in modern times.
(27:36):
Again, back then vice president wasnot an office that leads inexorably
to running for president, but doeshe even think about running for
president in 1928 or does Hooverhave this thing kind of sewn up?
Annette Dunlap (27:45):
I'm not sure that at that point, Charley really wanted to
be president, you know, The interestingthing about Charley is that he would
talk a lot about how he hated politics.
He did not like the details of politics.
He did not like theinefficiencies of politics.
I don't know that he wasparticularly interested.
I think he was more interested in beinga king maker than in being the king.
(28:08):
And the campaign for Hoover beginsprobably in 26 after Hoover's handling
of the great Mississippi flood.
And he had a lot of, Hoover hada lot of people drafting him
and building support for him.
You know, you realize Hoover has beenon the national radar screen since 1917.
(28:29):
He becomes food administratorunder Woodrow Wilson.
He becomes secretary of commerce under herHarding and then continues under Coolidge.
He is the person who is inthat office when radio Becomes
available to the public.
And so he has he he takes on theresponsibility of what eventually
(28:52):
becomes the FCC Federal CommunicationsCommission for how airwaves
are going to be established.
Television is actually getting started.
Then we had some other air.
Air travel is starting to begin.
Hoover's got his hands in a lot of pies.
Coolidge used to call him WonderBoy, somewhat sarcastically.
(29:12):
So, but Hoover's face andname have been out there.
I mean, he, he, he's an easy replacement.
Once it's known that, Coolidge hasno intention of running for what
would have been his second actualfull term because Coolidge had filled
in after Harding had died in 23.
Once Coolidge makes known I'm not runningagain, this is my only term, you know,
(29:35):
the door is pretty wide open for Hoover.
And even though there aresome other candidates, Charley
is actually not in that mix.
Evan Sparks (29:43):
As you note in the book, he lives till 1951 and has a long, long kind
of retirement after he saves his bank.
One of the things we didn't talkabout is the his philanthropic
endeavors, which are extensive.
And that's something that I, you know,you can, bankers can read about it.
Interested readers can canpick up in the book here.
But I do, I do want to thank youand that for taking some time to,
(30:06):
to walk us through this fascinatingbiography, this fascinating, this
fascinating figure, you know, we.
Look at the twenties, you have these, youknow, kind of larger than life figures
like Andrew Mellon as secretary of thetreasury, one of the great industrialists
of the, of the Northeast Herbert Hoover,an incredibly brilliant engineer and
(30:28):
philanthropic figure and humanitarianfigure and you know, the and then Charles,
Charley Dawes is there too, as one ofthe great, financial impresarios, And
so thank you for bringing him to life.
And thank you for being on the showtoday to to introduce him to our readers.
Annette Dunlap (30:42):
It has been a huge pleasure.
It's just been so muchfun to talk about him.
So I thank you very,very much for asking me.
I really appreciate it.
Evan Sparks (30:51):
Thanks so much for listening.
We are glad you've been able to joinus for this two part episode on the
fascinating life of Charley Dawes.
There you can find more informationabout Dawes on the ABA Banking
Journal website at aba.com/bankingjournal, where there's a feature
story from our March April issue.
Thanks so much for listening.
Thanks to nCino for sponsoringthis episode, and we'll be
back with you again soon.
Charley becomes head of a brand new agency that Congress
has created, today we call it theOffice of Management and Budget.
But what this office was going todo was oversee the budgets and the
expenditures of all of the variousexecutive departments and Charley, he'd
(00:24):
fit right in with the administrations.
He could probably get a seat onthis new efficiency committee that
may be established because I titledthat chapter in the book, the Axe
wielder because he goes in and hechops what he thinks are spurious,
unnecessary and duplicative expenses.
Evan Sparks (00:45):
From the American Bankers Association, welcome back
to the A BA Banking Journal podcast.
I'm Evan Sparks.
Today's episode is presented by nCino.
Today we're gonna continue ourconversation with Annette Dunlap,
the biographer of Charles Dawes,vice President of the United States
under Calvin Coolidge, Nobel PeacePrize Laureate, and one of America's
most prominent bankers in thefirst half of the 20th century.
(01:08):
If you listen to part one of the podcastlast week, you heard about his early
life, his experience as comptroller ofthe currency, and only in his thirties
under President William McKinley and hisrise to influence as one of the leaders
of Chicago's banking set financial sector.
And now let's pick up the story withCharley Dawes during the Great War.
(01:29):
You know, you mentioned raising fundsfor World War One, and I'd like to
kind of move, move ahead to that, tothis part, this new phase of public
service in his career, he he, when the,when war breaks out, when the United
States joins World War One, We he wantsto, he decides he's going to join up.
He didn't, he didn't have, hedidn't, hadn't served previously.
(01:49):
Did not serve during the warof the Spanish American war,
which was the only previous warduring his, his adult lifetime.
So what, why does he decideto join the join the army?
And what does he, what does hesee as his, the thing that he can
contribute during his service?
Annette Dunlap (02:05):
Well, as far as why at the age of 51 with two children,
I can't remember if they had adoptedtheir other two children at that
point or not, but so, you know, withtwo children and a wife, why he wants
to go ahead and join the militaryenlist, mind you, not asked to be, you
(02:25):
know, given an officer's commission,but just go in as a rank private.
God only knows what wasbehind that decision.
And hats off to his wife, Kara.
We're not just throwing him out ofthe house because I can only imagine
what the conversation may or may nothave been, but he enlists and pretty
(02:49):
quickly it's discovered that, youknow, this is just no ordinary guy.
who has come down here to serve, andone of the things that benefits Charley
is that General John Pershing has beenmade head of the American Expeditionary
Force, and Charley and John Pershinggo way back to their Nebraska days.
(03:11):
That's where they met.
And so and of course, Charley haspolitical ties in Washington, so.
It probably goes withoutsaying that he wasn't going to
remain private for very long.
But once he's on Pershing's radar screenand Pershing gets a sense of what has
to be done once they get into Europe andthey see what is happening there, he taps
(03:36):
Charley to become what is essentially,you know, the overall quartermaster.
He's the person who is responsible forsecuring all the necessary supplies.
And when I say all the necessarysupplies, I'm talking about everything.
I am talking about food for the troops,material to build shelters for the
(03:58):
troops, gasoline for the The jeepsand the tanks, I should point out
that this is the first mechanized warthat the United States has been in.
So you're now talking about dealingwith machinery and having to keep
that machinery maintained and havingto keep fuel for that machinery.
But we also still haven't gottenrid of the jeeps and animals.
(04:23):
So you also have to take careof horses and feed horses and
house horses and care for horses.
And Charley is responsible forthe entirety of the war material
that is necessary for the UnitedStates to prosecute the war.
And then he also, has to start dealingwith the French and British allies,
(04:44):
which proves to be not as simple and aseasy as one would think, because there
are nationalistic attitudes about eachcountry and the sense of superiority on
the part of the other countries, becausethe United States is the late comer,
but we're the ones with the money andwe're the ones who are way less exhausted
than the French and the British troops.
(05:06):
There has to be a lot of Negotiating alot of kissing of certain body parts to
to really start to get along with theFrench and the British and, you know,
truly make it a truly allied commandso that they're not working across
purposes in their attempts to procurethe materials that they need to have.
Evan Sparks (05:27):
And it's, it's also stunning to think about, you know,
and looking through his journals andall of the things that he's doing, you
know, because he published his journalsfrom the, from the war, you know, he's
going, this is the first time the UnitedStates has ever fought a land war.
Overseas.
Correct.
You know, we'd, we'd had the Mexicanwar, but that's, you know, basically
(05:48):
on our border, you know, and there,and obviously the Spanish American
war had involved, like, you know,conflict in the Philippines, but
that's like naval engagements and,you know, not truly bringing your
expeditionary force across an oceanand saying, we are going to fight.
fight here.
And because you couldn't.
You've got, you know, you know.
You know, you vote threats.
(06:08):
You're having a you're having difficultyshipping supplies over all of that,
these incredible logistical challenges.
Well, he seems like someonewho's just has this.
who is able to take this extraordinaryskill in business and figure out
how to apply it into very differentmech, in very different places in
(06:31):
ways that are still very effectiveat getting, getting the job done.
Annette Dunlap (06:35):
Yes, absolutely.
And, and it's also helpful that heknows how to build friendships with.
his fellow soldiers.
So he becomes very close friendswith General James Habbard,
who is very helpful to him.
Of course, he's got the closerelationship with John Pershing.
That's just golden.
And he has to work his way in to becomefriends with the French and with the
(06:59):
British and try to find ways to assuagetheir egos and their senses of superiority
that could very easily just undermineand derail any efforts to become a
truly allied expeditionary force.
So it's not just using his incrediblelogistical skills and his acumen at
(07:24):
figuring out how to make the differentmoving parts work and work together,
but there is an incredible amount ofdiplomacy that has to be a part of that.
And it's a, it was a tremendous,tremendous accomplishment.
And really, You know, he almost neededto be a fly on the wall in some of
these meetings to understand thestresses that he was under in order
(07:45):
to get agreements from the otherallies, from the other countries, and
then find ways to make it all work.
That and that alone if that was all hehad ever done, that by, could stand by
itself as a phenomenal accomplishment.
Evan Sparks (08:03):
So he, so he comes back and he's obviously very influential
in Republican politics by this point.
Harding becomes president in 1921.
What is what is Charleymost interested in doing?
What's he kind of in the mix forin the new Harding administration
alongside the other, the many other,you know, influential Republican
business leaders, politicians whoare kind of jockeying for jobs,
Annette Dunlap (08:24):
right?
So, you know, he doesn't get thejob of secretary of the treasury,
which is actually what he hadhoped he might be able to get
in the McKinley administration.
So in the Harding,
Evan Sparks (08:34):
I have to say that seemed a little, he's in his thirties.
He wants to be treasury secretaryin the McKinley administration.
He'd never, you know, That seemed a littleambitious when I read that in the book.
Annette Dunlap (08:45):
Hey, look, like I said, the guy is not shy, you know?
He has no problems with promoting himself.
You gotta give him credit, you know?
A lot of self esteem, good for him.
Evan Sparks (09:00):
All right, okay, so we're back to the, so we're here at the
Harding administration and he wants tobe treasury secretary once again, so.
Annette Dunlap (09:06):
Right, and that's not going to happen.
It's kind of, you know, Charley iswonderful, but it's kind of hard to
compare yourself to Andrew Mellon.
And, you know, again, you could makethe case of, okay, it's the East Coast
versus the Midwest, which probablythere's a certain amount of truth to.
to that, and there would have beenmore confidence on the part of the
(09:26):
East Coast bankers to see Andrew Mellonin that position, which he was in.
But Charley becomes head of a brandnew agency that Congress has created,
and it's it, today we call it theOffice of Management and Budget, so
I'll just use the, the current term.
But what this office was going todo was oversee the budgets and the
(09:50):
expenditures of all of the variousexecutive departments and Charley, he'd
fit right in with the administrations.
He could probably get a seat on thisnew efficiency committee that may
be established because I titled thatchapter in the book, the Axe wielder
(10:12):
because he goes in and he chops whathe thinks are, you know, spurious,
unnecessary and duplicative expenses.
And his whole point is to makesure that the budget of the
United States is balanced.
And by God, it was.
I should say that he stayed in thatposition for one year he did well
with it, but he didn't like it.
(10:33):
He really wanted to get back homeand he wanted to get back to Chicago.
So he serves in that, inthat slot for, for a year.
And then he goes back tohis, his banking life.
Evan Sparks (10:43):
And so he's not, he's not in Chicago for very long before
he gets called on to deal with thiscrisis unfolding in Europe, where
we have the you know, Germany isthe German economy is struggling
after the war, they owe reparationsunder the Treaty of Versailles,
fairly punitive treaty for Germany.
And.
They're not paying.
(11:04):
They can't pay them.
France then invades the Ruhr, which totry and say, "hey, well, okay, if you
can't pay, we'll take over this, yourindustrial heartland." But then that makes
it even extra hard for Germany to pay.
How does Dawes gets tappedto go and deal with this?
What can you talk about kind of thesolution that he comes up with here for
comes up with here for the reparations,the German reparations crisis?
Annette Dunlap (11:28):
Right.
Well, Dawes name is actuallyis applied to the solution.
It's called the Dawes plan, butin fairness, not only to him,
which I think he would want,but also to the other people.
This was truly a committee,a group, a work of committee.
His brother Rufus was with him as was,and I can't remember all the names,
(11:48):
but I want to say one of them was thehead of the arts of RCA company and
there was another top businessman andthere was actually two separate groups.
One was going to be looking at thefinancial side and one of it and the
other group I think was going to belooking at just the restoration side.
So Charley's on the financialend of this of course.
(12:09):
So It's just just to kind of putsome quick background into this.
So first, it should be noted thatthe United States was not a signatory
to the Treaty of Versailles Wilsonwas not successful in getting
that push through the Senate.
That's a whole different political story.
For why that happened.
The second thing is that you had peopleat the time, Bernard Baruch being one
(12:32):
of them who said that, you know, thepunitive requirements of the Versailles
Treaty were just going to start anotherwar, you know, again, a somewhat prophetic
stance on what actually did happen.
So yes, what happens is you've gotFrance and Britain really just expecting
Germany to pay every Just every lastounce of financial blood they can
(13:00):
for the damage that was wreaked inFrance and secondarily in England.
France of course sustained the mostdamage, you know, their farmlands,
their became the battlefields.
Their industries are destroyed.
They pretty much have to completelyrebuild and they think that France,
excuse me, that Germany has fullresponsibility for paying for this.
(13:21):
But the problem is Germany'sown industry is destroyed.
And so they are not beinggiven any up because of the
The rules that are being have beenimposed on Germany in terms of how it's
going to engage in international trade.
It's really not able to makemoney in order to repay this war
(13:47):
debt that has been put on it.
So there has to be someway to renegotiate.
this treaty so that, number one, Germany'sallowed to actually make money and keep
some of it to rebuild its industry, andthen, B, pay France and England what
needs to be paid back to France andEngland for the war reparations, and I
(14:09):
should point in there that it doesn'tget talked about a lot, but a lot of
the money that needed to get paid backto England and France Also had to get
paid back to the United States becausewe had issued those bonds that you and I
mentioned a little earlier, and those werebonds that were supposed to be repaid.
(14:30):
And so this money from the reparationsgo, you know, would be funneled through
France and England, but then thosecountries had a debt to us for the way
we helped finance their war effort.
So it's a very complicated system.
It basically creates this like triangle.
Evan Sparks (14:48):
Right.
You know, like much capital flowsin this weird triangle that doesn't.
And then, spoiler alert, youknow, world war two breaks out.
Right.
You know, it's like, yeah, youknow, you've got, so he wins the
Nobel prize for the Dawes plan.
And he's, he's kind of savesthe day for the moment.
You know, later on as ambassador tothe United Kingdom under the Hoover
(15:09):
administration, he is involved inhelping with a new plan to deal
with allied war debt and German andreparations and called the young plan.
I think is that what the youngplan he's involved with that.
And I, and this is where I, you know,again, he's present at the creation of all
these institutions today because he's, youknow, that's the plan that results in the
(15:31):
Bank for International Settlements, whichtoday is like basically, you know, doesn't
deal with settlements of war debt anymore.
It deals with the integration of global.
Bank financial system through thebasel committee on banking supervision
and the financial stability board.
So it's an incredibly influentialOrganization to this day that he's kind
of there, you know involved with thecreation of like once again but one of
(15:54):
the things you point out in the book islike he spends all this time we have,
you know disarmament talks, treaties,trying to, you know, negotiations over
disarmament that when he's vice presidentunder Calvin Coolidge he is involved in
all of these efforts to kind of builda sustainable peace during the 1920s.
And they all come crumblingdown in the early 1930s.
(16:16):
Did he, what, what didhe think about that?
What did he think about all of thiseffort that he had spent as a diplomat
trying to create trying to prevent theoutbreak of war, of a new war in Europe.
Annette Dunlap (16:27):
Well, I think it grieved him.
And I think it's also interesting toknow that he was friends with Herbert
Hoover, who had been involved withfeeding Europe after the war, he
was feeding Belgium during the war.
And then he was feedingEurope after the war.
And he, and one of the things thathappened when Charley was trying
to wrap things up with the Americanexpeditionary forces is that Hoover
(16:50):
steps in and says, look, you know, giveme all this food that you've got so
that I can start feeding these peoplebecause if you don't feed these people,
they're going to get angry and war'sgoing to break out all over again.
So you have Charley serving a presidentof the United States because he's, as
you point out, he's ambassador to GreatBritain under the Hoover administration.
You have two men that physically, livedthrough the horrors of World War I.
(17:16):
They were in Europe, they saw what wasgoing on, and then they're watching the
entirety of all of their efforts crumble.
And it's just, it's a very, verygrievous, grievous, painful process.
You don't see very much on Charley'send in terms of trying to undertake
methods to forestall another conflict,whereas Hoover spends quite a bit of
(17:39):
time trying to rehabilitate himself,but also promote himself as a peacemaker
through works that he is writing.
But Charley of course, part of the reasonwhy Charley doesn't get as involved
with attempts to forestall conflict isbecause of what's happening in the United
States with it, with the banking, withthe collapse of the banking system and
(17:59):
the collapse of his bank in Chicago.
Evan Sparks (18:03):
I wanna come back to that in just a minute, but let's take a moment
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So I wanna go back to this part ofDawes' life when he returns to Chicago.
(18:43):
He's at this point done withhis public service career.
The great depression is breaking out.
We're beginning to see lots of strain.
We're continuing to see lots of strainsin the banking system and he's heads
up the restoration reconstructionfinance corporation, which is exists
kind of as a, I mean, doing what thefederal reserve should have been doing,
you know, in making these, Makingloans to, financial institutions that
(19:05):
are experiencing liquidity crunches.
We talked about like, that's whatthe discount window is there for.
That's what eventually thefederal home loan bank is system
is created to do that as well.
For its members, what is and hedoes that for three months and then
he's has to head back to Chicago.
What happens in Chicago and howdoes he manage the crisis for
his bank in during the, you know,The crisis period of 1932 1933.
Annette Dunlap (19:29):
Right.
So he had as you said, hisbank is starting to fail.
And, you know, to go back to a personwe named a little bit earlier, Samuel
Insull, Samuel Insull stock priceis starting to tank, the relative
value of his company is decreasingdramatically almost on a day to day basis.
(19:50):
He has gotten in over his head in termsof borrowing money in order to keep the,
basically the electric utility going.
Part of the reason for what happensis because Samuelson brings his
brother along and his brother is notas conservative financially as he is.
And the whole.
(20:10):
Ensel's whole empire just collapses moreor less in one day when his stock price
just drops almost virtually to zero.
Which also means that he no longerhas the assets with which to pay
Charley for the loans that hehas taken out from Central Trust.
So, Samuel, instead of manningup, takes a boat to Europe.
(20:35):
And disappears, and he just leavesCharley with trying to figure out
how to keep his own bank solvent inthe wake of the default of one of
his absolutely largest creditors.
And this is where Charley goes to,to the RFC, reconstruction Finance
Corporation, and asks for a loan.
Well, of course, there is a lot ofdiscussion about that because Charley has
(20:59):
just left that organization and there'sthis feeling that it's sort of, you know
patronage in a way that is not acceptable.
And, but the they spend allweekend on the phone asking for
the loan, negotiating for the loan.
Herbert Hoover finally getsinvolved and says, yes, go
ahead and give them the loan.
(21:19):
And Hoover ultimately makes a speechas part of his campaign on why
he needed to go ahead and approvethis loan because it was important.
To the overall financial well being ofthe entire city of Chicago, which in fact
it was because if central trust had gonebelly up, there's fairly good evidence
that nearly every bank that was in theChicago loop was going to go belly up
(21:43):
as well because central trust was thestrongest bank in that set of banks.
So Charley, you know, calling on thingspractices that he had used back when
he was first getting his financialempire going did a reorganization.
And so he reorganizes thedeposits of his of his customers.
He eliminates a couple of servicesthat have proved to be non profitable.
(22:07):
And he keeps the bank closed for acouple of days and then he reopens under
a new charter and under a new name.
And, you know, prettymuch has been successful.
He has to do one more reorganization,but then ultimately he is
successful in his new name.
Keeping the bank solvent and keeping thebank operational all through the Great
Depression which in turn helped otherloop banks to be able to stay successful.
Evan Sparks (22:34):
So and so I want to come back, I want to go back to his
government service because I think itwas interesting to follow the story
of his diplomatic career, which ispunctuated in the middle, 1925 to 1929.
By being the 30th vicepresident of the United States.
And again, I guess I said at thebeginning, it's kind of, you know,
in terms of influence and power,you know, it's kind of ranks.
(22:58):
like maybe number four or five on hiscareer in terms of the offices he held
and the influence he had . One of hissuccessors as vice president James Nance
Garner, who is for FDR, his first vicepresident said and I'm going to sanitize
this for our, our G rated podcast here.
You know, the the vice presidencyisn't worth a bucket of warm spit.
And and it, so this was a time whenthe vice president was, you know,
(23:20):
being selected less, more, not evenselected by the presidential nominee.
What was his, you know, he wasjust kind of the party was like,
Hey, let's put this guy on.
He's, you know influential.
Let's wrap up here just by talkingabout his career as vice president.
What did he what did he see as hisrole and how did he contribute during
his years as a, as vice president,as the vice presidential nominee?
Annette Dunlap (23:43):
Well, it's pretty clear from the outset that he did not like being
the vice president of the United States.
His biggest bugaboo, if you will, wasthe cloture rule, which is still under
discussion today because the cloturerule Senate Rule 22a is the filibuster.
The ability for a senator to stand upand talk uninterruptedly for as long
(24:08):
as he is physically able in order toprevent a piece of legislation from
coming to the floor of the Senate.
Charley thought that this was an absolutewaste of taxpayers time and energy.
He went around the country in anattempt to make radio addresses and
public speaking opportunities toinvade against the cloture rule.
(24:30):
And he had absolutely no success.
So he made enemies among the Senators.
Then, he also took a nap when hethought that the Senate wasn't
going to be calling a vote.
On a nominee that Calvin Coolidge wantedto have approved and the vote was tied.
(24:53):
So some people ran to Charley's hotel.
They woke him up.
They got him in a cab.
They physically carried him up the stepsto the Senate to get him into the Senate
chamber in order to break the tie.
Well, between the time that they wentto go get him and the time they managed
to get him back one of the senatorswho had voted yay, decides to change
(25:19):
his vote and vote nay, which means thatnow this person is not a candidate.
Approved.
The Senate has not given its approvalfor him to become, and I can't remember
right now what the office was, buthe, Charley now becomes the the
recipient of Calvin Coolidge's ire.
(25:40):
And so that relationship was not avery good one from the beginning.
By the way, Calvin really didnot like Charley very much.
There wasn't a whole lot ofway for them to become friends.
Evan Sparks (25:54):
And it seemed like the feeling was mutual.
Annette Dunlap (25:56):
Well, yeah, I think so.
Because, you know, Calvin is sort ofa, you read his biography and with
all due respect, he was kind of amean spirited, angry, penurious In
the terms that James McGregor Burnsuses to classify presidents, he is
what we would call a passive negative.
In other words, he really wasn'tsomebody who was going to put
(26:18):
forth legislation and then he had anegative attitude to go on top of it.
And then you got Charley, who's an activepositive, who is, you know, Get out
there, you know, slap backs, shake hands,and, you know, let's get the job done.
And you couldn't find twomore different people.
And one of the things that I thought wasinteresting when I was reading the working
(26:38):
on it is that the two of them could noteven find common cause on the fact that
they had each lost a son, which you wouldthink might have a way of bonding the two
men, but not even that was a possibility.
Evan Sparks (26:53):
I was thinking when you were telling the story about
him sleeping through, you know,sleeping through the Senate, the
vote, like the one fun thing the vicepresident is really needed for, right.
You know, is we, and, and, and thathis big cause as, President as vice
president was trying to reform thecloture system as vice president was
trying to reform the cloture system.
(27:13):
I was just flashing back.
My wife and I have recently been watchingsome older episodes of Veep with Julia
Louis Dreyfus and, and her whole thing isthat she's trying to do filibuster reform.
And I'm like, that is totally somethingthat could have been straight out of
Veep is, you know, the vice president.
It's taking a nap and missingan important ranking vote.
So so we have some echoesof this in in modern times.
(27:36):
Again, back then vice president wasnot an office that leads inexorably
to running for president, but doeshe even think about running for
president in 1928 or does Hooverhave this thing kind of sewn up?
Annette Dunlap (27:45):
I'm not sure that at that point, Charley really wanted to
be president, you know, The interestingthing about Charley is that he would
talk a lot about how he hated politics.
He did not like the details of politics.
He did not like theinefficiencies of politics.
I don't know that he wasparticularly interested.
I think he was more interested in beinga king maker than in being the king.
(28:08):
And the campaign for Hoover beginsprobably in 26 after Hoover's handling
of the great Mississippi flood.
And he had a lot of, Hoover hada lot of people drafting him
and building support for him.
You know, you realize Hoover has beenon the national radar screen since 1917.
(28:29):
He becomes food administratorunder Woodrow Wilson.
He becomes secretary of commerce under herHarding and then continues under Coolidge.
He is the person who is inthat office when radio Becomes
available to the public.
And so he has he he takes on theresponsibility of what eventually
(28:52):
becomes the FCC Federal CommunicationsCommission for how airwaves
are going to be established.
Television is actually getting started.
Then we had some other air.
Air travel is starting to begin.
Hoover's got his hands in a lot of pies.
Coolidge used to call him WonderBoy, somewhat sarcastically.
(29:12):
So, but Hoover's face andname have been out there.
I mean, he, he, he's an easy replacement.
Once it's known that, Coolidge hasno intention of running for what
would have been his second actualfull term because Coolidge had filled
in after Harding had died in 23.
Once Coolidge makes known I'm not runningagain, this is my only term, you know,
(29:35):
the door is pretty wide open for Hoover.
And even though there aresome other candidates, Charley
is actually not in that mix.
Evan Sparks (29:43):
As you note in the book, he lives till 1951 and has a long, long kind
of retirement after he saves his bank.
One of the things we didn't talkabout is the his philanthropic
endeavors, which are extensive.
And that's something that I, you know,you can, bankers can read about it.
Interested readers can canpick up in the book here.
But I do, I do want to thank youand that for taking some time to,
(30:06):
to walk us through this fascinatingbiography, this fascinating, this
fascinating figure, you know, we.
Look at the twenties, you have these, youknow, kind of larger than life figures
like Andrew Mellon as secretary of thetreasury, one of the great industrialists
of the, of the Northeast Herbert Hoover,an incredibly brilliant engineer and
(30:28):
philanthropic figure and humanitarianfigure and you know, the and then Charles,
Charley Dawes is there too, as one ofthe great, financial impresarios, And
so thank you for bringing him to life.
And thank you for being on the showtoday to to introduce him to our readers.
Annette Dunlap (30:42):
It has been a huge pleasure.
It's just been so muchfun to talk about him.
So I thank you very,very much for asking me.
I really appreciate it.
Evan Sparks (30:51):
Thanks so much for listening.
We are glad you've been able to joinus for this two part episode on the
fascinating life of Charley Dawes.
There you can find more informationabout Dawes on the ABA Banking
Journal website at aba.com/bankingjournal, where there's a feature
story from our March April issue.
Thanks so much for listening.
Thanks to nCino for sponsoringthis episode, and we'll be
back with you again soon.
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