March 17, 2024 • 25 mins
In this episode, I delve into the top three stumbling blocks HR directors face when considering hiring a pay gaps consultancy.
Episode highlights:
Here is a sneak peak of each one of the obstacles:
Obstacle number 1: apprehension about disruption and potential chaos during integration of pay gap initiatives, as well as reluctance to sharing data and stories with an external consultant.
Obstacle number 2: organisations are often resistant to change, fearing employee pushback and scepticism.
Obstacle number 3: there may be worries about the financial implications leading to reluctance to hiring external support.
And more!
Plus, find out how your organisation can address these stumbling blocks in order to effectively tackle pay gaps.
Best podcast quote: “There's never any one way to address closing pay gaps. It's going to be different for everybody. What we decide to do together depends on our working relationship, your business model, your sector, and ultimately discovering what's going to work for you as an organisation.”
Sign up to our webinar coming up on 21st March: “Own Your Own Pay Gap Narrative”: https://equalitypays.vipmembervault.com/products/courses/view/1165273
Get in touch:
For support in addressing your pay gap issues book a free call here: Book a call
Website: www.equalitypays.co
Sign up to access lots of pay gaps resources: https://equalitypays.mvsite.app/products/courses/view/1071087
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hello, and welcome back to the
Beyond the pay gap figure, where
today I'm going to be talking to
you about the top three
stumbling blocks or obstacles
that I hear from HR directors
around why they're not hiring a
pay gaps consultancy. So the
first issue that comes up is
(00:23):
always around the apprehension
about any disruption that is
going to come their way. And the
fear here is the fear of
upheaval, and any potential
chaos during any kind of
integration around pay gap
initiatives. And it's an
interesting one, because clearly
(00:44):
the organisation needs that pick
up consultancy, to come in and
to help them, you know, navigate
the issues that they have and
come and implement something.
But the thing that stops them
from reaching out at all or
reaching out sooner, is that
fear of okay, well, what, how is
this going to really disrupt our
organisation? That, yes, we want
(01:05):
to address the pay gap. But I do
think that there is sometimes
this underlying feeling of, Can
we do it in a very piecemeal
made way? Can we do it in a way
that's not too disruptive and
doesn't upset too many people?
Or, you know, whatever. So this
is a key reason why so many
organisations will try and do
(01:28):
this work by themselves. For so
long, I've lost count the number
of times where people come to me
and say, I have been following
you on LinkedIn. I've been on
your newsletter for years,
following you LinkedIn for
years. And I really, you've been
waiting years to come and speak
(01:48):
to me about your pay gap issues?
And it's usually because they're
really worried about Okay, what
if we bring somebody from the
outside into our organisation?
Like, what is that going to do?
And so this is real nervousness
around letting somebody in and
having to share your data and
share you know, the stories and
answer the questions because,
(02:10):
you know, ultimately, the
consultants is going to have
lots and lots of questions to
ask you, so that they can get a
feel for, you know, what your
organisation is like, and where
you're kind of problem areas
are. And that is very, very
scary. And not only that, if
your employees get wind, that
there is a pay gaps consultancy,
(02:32):
that's been hired to come and
address these issues. There is
also that fear of raising
people's expectations, because
what will tend to happen is
you'll have two cohorts of
people, you will have one cohort
who are just so ready for this,
they cannot wait, they've seen
the problems, they've probably
been on the receiving end of all
those problems. And they cannot
(02:52):
wait for consultancy to come in
and shake things up and you
know, improve things in the
workplace. And then you have the
other set of people who might be
really worried about all what
what does this mean? And what
will this mean for me, and I
will talk about that in a little
bit. But talking about raising
people's expectations, I
distinctly remember working with
one particular client, they were
(03:14):
in the technology space, but the
niche they were in was very,
very male dominated. And I
remember being called in to give
a talk and then to provide some
consultancy. And even just me
coming in to give a talk to the
organisation really raised alarm
bells for this particular HR
(03:35):
director. And so I offered to
have a one to one call with him.
And I said, Okay, look, let's
get on a call. And I can explain
to you what it is that I'm going
to be talking about. So you've
got sight of it so that you can
be prepared for any questions
that might come your way based
on what I'm going to talk about.
And it was really an interesting
(03:56):
conversation because he was so
so so defensive. And if he could
have told me I don't want you to
come into my organisation, he
definitely would have. But he's
an after we had this
conversation, I realised that he
was worried that people would
have really high expectations.
(04:17):
After the talk and after me
providing consultancy, just the
very fact that I was coming into
the organisation for a short
period of time. He was really
concerned about how this would
raise people's expectations and
that they would want to see
change, you know, wrap it in a
really rapid way and really
drastic change. And he didn't
believe that that was possible.
(04:39):
So this apprehension about that
disruption, the apprehension
about you know, raising people's
expectations is really real. And
I do genuinely believe that it
is one of the number one reasons
why organisations don't reach
out to consultancies or they
take a really long time to reach
out for that help that they
(04:59):
desperately need. Clearly you
need. So that's the first thing,
apprehension around disruption.
Which leads on nicely to the
second issue, which is the
resistance to change or the fear
of change. And that goes kind of
side by side with raising
people's expectations. So like I
said before, when you when a
(05:20):
consultancy comes into an
organisation, anything to do pay
gaps, half the people are going
to be like, great, can't wait to
see what happens. The other half
of people are going to be like,
Oh, okay, oh, this stuff is
serious. It's not just the
organisation, talking about the
fact that they need to do better
in this space. They've invested
(05:41):
time and money to bring somebody
in to look at us as an
organisation, and make
recommendations. And as we all
know, recommendations is always
about change. So the status quo
is likely to be interrupted up
end is changed in some way. And
so there are real concerns about
(06:02):
employee pushback and scepticism
as well as the disruptions in
the workplace. And I see this a
lot. I remember working with a
client who was in the real
estate sector, and they had a
really big pay gap. So they
brought me in because they
wanted to know what it is that
they could do, to bring the
payout figure down and make the
(06:23):
workplace much more inclusive,
and much more equitable. And it
was really interesting, talking
to different people in the
organisation, I did a lot of one
to one interviews with people to
get a feel for how the
organisation was run, what the
culture was like, and to
understand what people's
concerns were. And time and time
again, whenever I spoke to men
(06:46):
in this organisation, their fear
around what the impact of any
gender pay gap initiatives would
be, was really palpable. And I
had people in there saying, not
only to me, but to the HR
director as well, that they were
concerned that they were going
to be overlooked purely because
they were men, they were
concerned that they would be,
(07:07):
you know, denied promotions and
promotions would be given to
women, because they were women,
because this will help with the
gender pay gap figure because it
will help with the optics of
what the organisation is doing
in this space. So this
resistance to change is very
real. And I do know that some
organisations are very sensitive
(07:28):
to that. They're sensitive to
that, because it's, for them, it
feels like an uncomfortable
thing to think about it feels
like uncomfortable questions,
and they don't know how to
answer that. And so therefore,
it's easier for them to just
kind of plod along doing what
they're doing behind the scenes
without any external
interference, as they might see
(07:48):
it in the hope that those
questions don't get asked in the
hope that they're able to, you
know, address their pay gap
issues without having to
potentially deal with, you know,
men feeling that they're going
to be overlooked. And so this
resistance to change is another
(08:08):
key stumbling block as to why
organisations never hire
somebody external to come in and
support them, or they take such
a long time to hire somebody.
And the thing is, is that, you
know, when we talk about gender
pay gap reporting, and it's real
purpose, it was designed to be
(08:28):
disruptive, and it was designed
to implement change. So it's
going to throw up both expected
challenges, but also unexpected
challenges that can be fraught
with emotion, it's going to make
people on easy and
uncomfortable, because we're
essentially looking at the
behaviours and the culture of an
(08:50):
organisation and saying, it's
not working. And it needs to
change. And as human beings,
we're not always great with
change yet. And so it's very,
very natural to feel real
apprehension around, not only
doing this work, but then
bringing somebody externally in
to help you with this work. But
(09:12):
we understand that here, high
quality pays, we are not in the
business of coming in. And you
know, making demands and telling
you that you have to make
changes that you have to do
this. And you have to do that.
If you don't feel comfortable or
confident or don't understand
why we're making this
recommendations. We are in the
business of CO creating a
(09:34):
journey with you. We're not in
the business of telling you that
this is what you have to do. So
yes, there will be disruption
and there will be change, but we
will be here to support you. And
we can do that in a myriad of
ways.
There's never any one way to
address closing pay gaps. It's
going to be different for
everybody. So that could include
you know creating toolkits for
(09:55):
you or facilitating roundtable
discussions or one to one
interviews providing insights,
reports, training, and much,
much more. What we decided to do
together depends on our working
relationship, what we find, you
know, your business, model your
sector, and ultimately
discovering what's going to work
(10:16):
for you as an organisation. So
if you've been apprehensive in
the past about bringing somebody
in, because you think that
they're going to come in and
just tell you what to do, and
you're going to be stuck with
this person who's, you know,
really aggressive. You know, I
want to tell you that maybe
that's how some consultancies
work. But that's not how we work
(10:37):
here at equality pays, we are
here to hold your hand and
educate you on the things that
you need to do, and to provide
you with resources to make that
happen. So if you would like to
book a call, and there's,
obviously there's no obligation,
it's not a sales call, it's just
a conversation. If you'd like to
book a call to discuss how we
could support you with your pay
(10:58):
gap initiatives, then all you
need to do is go into the show
notes and click on the link in
there. Okay, so resistance to
change was the second issue.
Now, the third one is around
budget. Yep, it's a biggie, the
worries around what the
financial implications would be,
and the cost of hiring an
(11:19):
external consultant is a big
one. And I do believe that it's
one of those issues, that
actually might be the first
thing that stops people that I
just think actually, it's going
to cost an absolute fortune. And
I can kind of understand why,
especially when you have, you
know, the big four consultancies
(11:40):
that, you know, provide pay gaps
support, the first thing you can
think is oh, you know, we're
talking like hundreds of 1000s,
it's going to be so much money,
and we just don't have that. So
therefore, we're just gonna go
with it go this alone, as it
were. But the thing to remember
is that, like, with everything,
there's different price points
(12:00):
for the same service, depending
on the organisation that you
decide to go with. So if you do
have concerns about budget
constraints, the one thing that
I would say is, go and get those
answers, you know, have that
conversation, don't sit there
thinking, Oh, it's going to cost
an arm and a leg, so therefore,
we're just not going to talk to
anyone have the conversation,
(12:22):
you're under no obligation to
sign a contract or buy anything
if you don't want to, but having
that conversation will give you
the facts so that you will know
Oh, okay, actually, it's less
than we thought, and this is
within our budget, or we looked
at these three organisations,
and these are the two that we
think that we can work with, and
their budget matches ours, or we
(12:44):
can stretch to work with them,
because we think they're really
great. You know, however you did
make that decision doesn't
matter. But what you do need to
do is to start having that
conversation, don't sit there
thinking, it's going to cost us
the earth. So therefore, I'm not
going to talk to anyone about
it, we're just going to try and
do it ourselves. Because we will
save ourselves so much money.
(13:05):
That's not the best way to think
about it. The best way is to go
out and do that research, have
those conversations, find people
that you know, inspire,
confident, inspire confidence.
So you think, Oh, actually,
these people know what they're
talking about. And they could be
really good for us. I personally
find the budget conversation
very, very interesting.
(13:27):
Sometimes I would get clients
who were just like, This is what
we have, what can what can you
do with us for that amount of
money? That's quite rare. But
sometimes we do have that. And
then other conversations be
very, very cagey. And it's very
much and you're trying to play
chicken and egg where they don't
want to commit to an amount that
they could stretch to, and they
(13:48):
want me to say a number first.
And, you know, no hard feelings,
because not everybody has that
information. Not everybody likes
talking about money. But I
always, I always find it very,
very helpful to have at least a
ballpark figure or a range. And
that can be based on what you
(14:08):
have paid other consultants in
the past. Or it could be based
on what you know, you have
available to utilise. Because,
you know, there's no point in
hiding from this conversation.
Because you're going to have to
have it at some stage. And it
just makes it much it makes it a
much smoother, easier process
and conversation to make a
(14:30):
decision as to whether it's
something that you can invest in
or not. If you are open around
what budget you have. So if you
are thinking of hiring someone,
and you're not sure how much
it's going to cost and you're
worried about that, I would
advise you to put those fears
aside for now and go and do your
research. Go and have those
(14:51):
conversations. And then at least
you will know what a ballpark
figure is what arranges and it
will give me some insights into
is what the kind of market rate
is for this type of work. And
you might, you might be
pleasantly surprised to find
that it's not as high as you
probably thought. And then the
(15:12):
last issue that comes up a lot
is the uncertainty around the
effectiveness of what the
consultant is going to tell you.
So basically, it's having doubts
around, okay, well, what's the
actual impact going to be?
What's this consultant going to
bring to the table that that I
can't already do, because I know
this organisation inside now,
(15:33):
and I don't really know or see
how somebody external is going
to make a difference when we try
things ourselves. And it's an
interesting one, because
consultants in general often get
a bad reputation. I remember
talking to my sister in law, her
years and years and years ago,
way before I started my
business, I think it might have
(15:53):
been when I was thinking about
starting my business. And she
says something along the lines
of, oh, consultants, oh, all
they do is they just come into
an organisation, look around a
little bit, tell people what to
do, and then charge the company
so much money, and the stuff
that they recommend is just
absolutely rubbish. And I
remember kind of sitting there
just kind of nodding, going,
(16:14):
yeah. And not really agreeing,
but feeling a bit like, oh, I
don't want to get into a
conversation about this. But I
do think that there is that
pervasive idea, and especially
when we see so many stories
about mismanagement, you know,
in public sector, in the private
sector with, you know, and
everyone's is like, management
consultants charge X amount, you
(16:37):
know, last year, there is this
feeling of our consultants, you
know, what value can they bring.
But for me, I always think, you
know, when it comes to measuring
that effectiveness, it really
depends on what you do with the
information that the consultant
gives you. So there's, there's
two kind of modes of
responsibility here. So there's
(16:57):
a responsibility of the
consultant to provide the right
professional information, given
you know, whatever the topic is,
but then there's also your
responsibility to implement and
take on board those
recommendations and to actually
do something and do the work
that you have been advised that
you need to do. And when you
(17:19):
have that combination, you will
see the effectiveness of what
the consultant has brought to
the to the organisation, you
will see the value of that
you'll you'll basically get the
return on your investment. But
if there is a mismatch between
the two, either consultant not
giving you great advice, or
you're not implementing what
(17:40):
they've advised you to do, then
you are going to have an issue
in terms of seeing how effective
they are.
I remember I was working with an
engineering organisation, and
they'd set themselves very
specific gender pay gap targets.
And they brought me in because
(18:01):
they want, they understood that
their line managers didn't quite
get what the pay gap was, and
they wanted them to not only
understand that, but to
understand how it shows up
within workplaces. And to get an
idea of what it is that they
would need to do to support the
organisation to bring their
gender pay gap down and help
(18:21):
meet their ambitious target. So
I was like, Okay, fine. So I
went to and created the
training. And when it came to
giving feedback, I advised them
that obviously, I delivered the
training, and that they now had
a better understanding. But I
also shared with them their
concerns and challenges and
obstacles that line managers
felt that they had, that was
(18:41):
stopping them from being able
to, you know, really kind of
support, how support the pay gap
dropping, and they were sharing
with me what they needed from
the senior leaders, what they
needed from the HR team, to
enable them to make these
changes. And I could tell that
with my the contacts that I had,
(19:04):
I could tell that they were
disappointed. Because what they
wanted was for line managers to
go, Okay, we've got the
training, we now know what we
need to do, and then go off and
do it. What I was saying to them
is yeah, they understand what it
is that they need to do. But
what they're presenting you now
with is information around why
(19:25):
it's difficult for them to make
these changes and what they need
from you to enable them to do
that. And so here, this
organisation has an opportunity
to think about how effective the
advice that I've given them is
going to be now if they decide,
okay, yes, we need to implement
(19:47):
some of the recommendations that
Michelle has made and here are
the changes, they will see the
effectiveness of the advice I've
given them. If however, they
stay in that place of well,
that's not really what we
wanted. And so therefore, we're
not going to do any of those
things, then they won't see the
effectiveness of the advice
that's given. So can you see how
this is, you know how there's
(20:08):
two kinds of modes of
responsibility here? So if
you're concerned about bringing
somebody in, and you're
thinking, Oh, well, you know,
how effective are they going to
be? You have to remember that
you have to be responsible for
your part. So you have to, you
know, listen to what they have
to say. And obviously think
(20:28):
about, you know, does this make
sense for us as an organisation?
You know, Is there truth to what
this consultant is telling us,
and then make a decision as to
whether you're going to
implement things based on what
they've told you or not? So the
effectiveness kind of question
and concern really depends on
two parts. And it's not just the
consultant, it's you as an
organisation, as well. So they
(20:52):
are the top four issues that are
real stumbling blocks for
organisations like yourself to
hiring a pay gaps consultant. So
just to summarise what they
were, the issue around
disruption and how this might
raise people's expectations is a
(21:13):
real issue, the fear of change
or resistance to change and the
fact that some people might see
a consultant coming in and
making recommendations threat
into them and not wanting to
change the way that the way that
things currently run. The third
one was around budget concerns
and believing and thinking that
it's going to cost the earth. So
(21:34):
therefore, not having that
conversation, because you don't
want to be stuck on a zoom or
someone's telling you, it's
going to cost 1000s, hundreds of
1000s of pounds to address your
pay gap. And obviously, my
advice is, that's not always the
case. So get in those rooms and
get that get that information so
you can work based on fact,
rather than what you think. And
(21:56):
then the last issue that stops
people from hiring outside help
with their pay gaps is the
concerns around effectiveness.
And, you know, the advice that I
give is that if you're looking
for effectiveness, you have to
remember it's twofold. So it's
one the effectiveness of the
consultant in terms of the
advice that they give you, but
(22:17):
also what you choose as an
organisation to do with that
information that they give you.
So that is a wrap from me, I
hope that you found the episode
useful. You know, here equality
pays, we are really, really
focused on educating you on the
best approach to your unique pay
(22:39):
gaps because there is no one
size fits all when it comes to
solutions. So if you're ready to
approach your pay gaps
differently, then do book a
call, the link to join is in the
shownotes. So once again, thank
you so much for carving out the
time to hear what was shared on
today's podcast, if you found
this episode useful, and please
let your colleagues and peers
(23:00):
know all you have to do is share
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do and then that way, every time
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searching for it and you won't
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see you next week where I'll be
(23:20):
doing the second part to this
two part episode about hiring a
pay gaps consultancy, and I'm
going to focus on the questions
that you should be asking for
pay gaps consultancy, and I will
share with you how I answer
them. So if that is of interest
to you, then tune into next
week's episode to find out more
(23:41):
bye for now.
Hello, and welcome back to the
Beyond the pay gap figure, where
today I'm going to be talking to
you about the top three
stumbling blocks or obstacles
that I hear from HR directors
around why they're not hiring a
pay gaps consultancy. So the
first issue that comes up is
(00:23):
always around the apprehension
about any disruption that is
going to come their way. And the
fear here is the fear of
upheaval, and any potential
chaos during any kind of
integration around pay gap
initiatives. And it's an
interesting one, because clearly
(00:44):
the organisation needs that pick
up consultancy, to come in and
to help them, you know, navigate
the issues that they have and
come and implement something.
But the thing that stops them
from reaching out at all or
reaching out sooner, is that
fear of okay, well, what, how is
this going to really disrupt our
organisation? That, yes, we want
(01:05):
to address the pay gap. But I do
think that there is sometimes
this underlying feeling of, Can
we do it in a very piecemeal
made way? Can we do it in a way
that's not too disruptive and
doesn't upset too many people?
Or, you know, whatever. So this
is a key reason why so many
organisations will try and do
(01:28):
this work by themselves. For so
long, I've lost count the number
of times where people come to me
and say, I have been following
you on LinkedIn. I've been on
your newsletter for years,
following you LinkedIn for
years. And I really, you've been
waiting years to come and speak
(01:48):
to me about your pay gap issues?
And it's usually because they're
really worried about Okay, what
if we bring somebody from the
outside into our organisation?
Like, what is that going to do?
And so this is real nervousness
around letting somebody in and
having to share your data and
share you know, the stories and
answer the questions because,
(02:10):
you know, ultimately, the
consultants is going to have
lots and lots of questions to
ask you, so that they can get a
feel for, you know, what your
organisation is like, and where
you're kind of problem areas
are. And that is very, very
scary. And not only that, if
your employees get wind, that
there is a pay gaps consultancy,
(02:32):
that's been hired to come and
address these issues. There is
also that fear of raising
people's expectations, because
what will tend to happen is
you'll have two cohorts of
people, you will have one cohort
who are just so ready for this,
they cannot wait, they've seen
the problems, they've probably
been on the receiving end of all
those problems. And they cannot
(02:52):
wait for consultancy to come in
and shake things up and you
know, improve things in the
workplace. And then you have the
other set of people who might be
really worried about all what
what does this mean? And what
will this mean for me, and I
will talk about that in a little
bit. But talking about raising
people's expectations, I
distinctly remember working with
one particular client, they were
(03:14):
in the technology space, but the
niche they were in was very,
very male dominated. And I
remember being called in to give
a talk and then to provide some
consultancy. And even just me
coming in to give a talk to the
organisation really raised alarm
bells for this particular HR
(03:35):
director. And so I offered to
have a one to one call with him.
And I said, Okay, look, let's
get on a call. And I can explain
to you what it is that I'm going
to be talking about. So you've
got sight of it so that you can
be prepared for any questions
that might come your way based
on what I'm going to talk about.
And it was really an interesting
(03:56):
conversation because he was so
so so defensive. And if he could
have told me I don't want you to
come into my organisation, he
definitely would have. But he's
an after we had this
conversation, I realised that he
was worried that people would
have really high expectations.
(04:17):
After the talk and after me
providing consultancy, just the
very fact that I was coming into
the organisation for a short
period of time. He was really
concerned about how this would
raise people's expectations and
that they would want to see
change, you know, wrap it in a
really rapid way and really
drastic change. And he didn't
believe that that was possible.
(04:39):
So this apprehension about that
disruption, the apprehension
about you know, raising people's
expectations is really real. And
I do genuinely believe that it
is one of the number one reasons
why organisations don't reach
out to consultancies or they
take a really long time to reach
out for that help that they
(04:59):
desperately need. Clearly you
need. So that's the first thing,
apprehension around disruption.
Which leads on nicely to the
second issue, which is the
resistance to change or the fear
of change. And that goes kind of
side by side with raising
people's expectations. So like I
said before, when you when a
(05:20):
consultancy comes into an
organisation, anything to do pay
gaps, half the people are going
to be like, great, can't wait to
see what happens. The other half
of people are going to be like,
Oh, okay, oh, this stuff is
serious. It's not just the
organisation, talking about the
fact that they need to do better
in this space. They've invested
(05:41):
time and money to bring somebody
in to look at us as an
organisation, and make
recommendations. And as we all
know, recommendations is always
about change. So the status quo
is likely to be interrupted up
end is changed in some way. And
so there are real concerns about
(06:02):
employee pushback and scepticism
as well as the disruptions in
the workplace. And I see this a
lot. I remember working with a
client who was in the real
estate sector, and they had a
really big pay gap. So they
brought me in because they
wanted to know what it is that
they could do, to bring the
payout figure down and make the
(06:23):
workplace much more inclusive,
and much more equitable. And it
was really interesting, talking
to different people in the
organisation, I did a lot of one
to one interviews with people to
get a feel for how the
organisation was run, what the
culture was like, and to
understand what people's
concerns were. And time and time
again, whenever I spoke to men
(06:46):
in this organisation, their fear
around what the impact of any
gender pay gap initiatives would
be, was really palpable. And I
had people in there saying, not
only to me, but to the HR
director as well, that they were
concerned that they were going
to be overlooked purely because
they were men, they were
concerned that they would be,
(07:07):
you know, denied promotions and
promotions would be given to
women, because they were women,
because this will help with the
gender pay gap figure because it
will help with the optics of
what the organisation is doing
in this space. So this
resistance to change is very
real. And I do know that some
organisations are very sensitive
(07:28):
to that. They're sensitive to
that, because it's, for them, it
feels like an uncomfortable
thing to think about it feels
like uncomfortable questions,
and they don't know how to
answer that. And so therefore,
it's easier for them to just
kind of plod along doing what
they're doing behind the scenes
without any external
interference, as they might see
(07:48):
it in the hope that those
questions don't get asked in the
hope that they're able to, you
know, address their pay gap
issues without having to
potentially deal with, you know,
men feeling that they're going
to be overlooked. And so this
resistance to change is another
(08:08):
key stumbling block as to why
organisations never hire
somebody external to come in and
support them, or they take such
a long time to hire somebody.
And the thing is, is that, you
know, when we talk about gender
pay gap reporting, and it's real
purpose, it was designed to be
(08:28):
disruptive, and it was designed
to implement change. So it's
going to throw up both expected
challenges, but also unexpected
challenges that can be fraught
with emotion, it's going to make
people on easy and
uncomfortable, because we're
essentially looking at the
behaviours and the culture of an
(08:50):
organisation and saying, it's
not working. And it needs to
change. And as human beings,
we're not always great with
change yet. And so it's very,
very natural to feel real
apprehension around, not only
doing this work, but then
bringing somebody externally in
to help you with this work. But
(09:12):
we understand that here, high
quality pays, we are not in the
business of coming in. And you
know, making demands and telling
you that you have to make
changes that you have to do
this. And you have to do that.
If you don't feel comfortable or
confident or don't understand
why we're making this
recommendations. We are in the
business of CO creating a
(09:34):
journey with you. We're not in
the business of telling you that
this is what you have to do. So
yes, there will be disruption
and there will be change, but we
will be here to support you. And
we can do that in a myriad of
ways.
There's never any one way to
address closing pay gaps. It's
going to be different for
everybody. So that could include
you know creating toolkits for
(09:55):
you or facilitating roundtable
discussions or one to one
interviews providing insights,
reports, training, and much,
much more. What we decided to do
together depends on our working
relationship, what we find, you
know, your business, model your
sector, and ultimately
discovering what's going to work
(10:16):
for you as an organisation. So
if you've been apprehensive in
the past about bringing somebody
in, because you think that
they're going to come in and
just tell you what to do, and
you're going to be stuck with
this person who's, you know,
really aggressive. You know, I
want to tell you that maybe
that's how some consultancies
work. But that's not how we work
(10:37):
here at equality pays, we are
here to hold your hand and
educate you on the things that
you need to do, and to provide
you with resources to make that
happen. So if you would like to
book a call, and there's,
obviously there's no obligation,
it's not a sales call, it's just
a conversation. If you'd like to
book a call to discuss how we
could support you with your pay
(10:58):
gap initiatives, then all you
need to do is go into the show
notes and click on the link in
there. Okay, so resistance to
change was the second issue.
Now, the third one is around
budget. Yep, it's a biggie, the
worries around what the
financial implications would be,
and the cost of hiring an
(11:19):
external consultant is a big
one. And I do believe that it's
one of those issues, that
actually might be the first
thing that stops people that I
just think actually, it's going
to cost an absolute fortune. And
I can kind of understand why,
especially when you have, you
know, the big four consultancies
(11:40):
that, you know, provide pay gaps
support, the first thing you can
think is oh, you know, we're
talking like hundreds of 1000s,
it's going to be so much money,
and we just don't have that. So
therefore, we're just gonna go
with it go this alone, as it
were. But the thing to remember
is that, like, with everything,
there's different price points
(12:00):
for the same service, depending
on the organisation that you
decide to go with. So if you do
have concerns about budget
constraints, the one thing that
I would say is, go and get those
answers, you know, have that
conversation, don't sit there
thinking, Oh, it's going to cost
an arm and a leg, so therefore,
we're just not going to talk to
anyone have the conversation,
(12:22):
you're under no obligation to
sign a contract or buy anything
if you don't want to, but having
that conversation will give you
the facts so that you will know
Oh, okay, actually, it's less
than we thought, and this is
within our budget, or we looked
at these three organisations,
and these are the two that we
think that we can work with, and
their budget matches ours, or we
(12:44):
can stretch to work with them,
because we think they're really
great. You know, however you did
make that decision doesn't
matter. But what you do need to
do is to start having that
conversation, don't sit there
thinking, it's going to cost us
the earth. So therefore, I'm not
going to talk to anyone about
it, we're just going to try and
do it ourselves. Because we will
save ourselves so much money.
(13:05):
That's not the best way to think
about it. The best way is to go
out and do that research, have
those conversations, find people
that you know, inspire,
confident, inspire confidence.
So you think, Oh, actually,
these people know what they're
talking about. And they could be
really good for us. I personally
find the budget conversation
very, very interesting.
(13:27):
Sometimes I would get clients
who were just like, This is what
we have, what can what can you
do with us for that amount of
money? That's quite rare. But
sometimes we do have that. And
then other conversations be
very, very cagey. And it's very
much and you're trying to play
chicken and egg where they don't
want to commit to an amount that
they could stretch to, and they
(13:48):
want me to say a number first.
And, you know, no hard feelings,
because not everybody has that
information. Not everybody likes
talking about money. But I
always, I always find it very,
very helpful to have at least a
ballpark figure or a range. And
that can be based on what you
(14:08):
have paid other consultants in
the past. Or it could be based
on what you know, you have
available to utilise. Because,
you know, there's no point in
hiding from this conversation.
Because you're going to have to
have it at some stage. And it
just makes it much it makes it a
much smoother, easier process
and conversation to make a
(14:30):
decision as to whether it's
something that you can invest in
or not. If you are open around
what budget you have. So if you
are thinking of hiring someone,
and you're not sure how much
it's going to cost and you're
worried about that, I would
advise you to put those fears
aside for now and go and do your
research. Go and have those
(14:51):
conversations. And then at least
you will know what a ballpark
figure is what arranges and it
will give me some insights into
is what the kind of market rate
is for this type of work. And
you might, you might be
pleasantly surprised to find
that it's not as high as you
probably thought. And then the
(15:12):
last issue that comes up a lot
is the uncertainty around the
effectiveness of what the
consultant is going to tell you.
So basically, it's having doubts
around, okay, well, what's the
actual impact going to be?
What's this consultant going to
bring to the table that that I
can't already do, because I know
this organisation inside now,
(15:33):
and I don't really know or see
how somebody external is going
to make a difference when we try
things ourselves. And it's an
interesting one, because
consultants in general often get
a bad reputation. I remember
talking to my sister in law, her
years and years and years ago,
way before I started my
business, I think it might have
(15:53):
been when I was thinking about
starting my business. And she
says something along the lines
of, oh, consultants, oh, all
they do is they just come into
an organisation, look around a
little bit, tell people what to
do, and then charge the company
so much money, and the stuff
that they recommend is just
absolutely rubbish. And I
remember kind of sitting there
just kind of nodding, going,
(16:14):
yeah. And not really agreeing,
but feeling a bit like, oh, I
don't want to get into a
conversation about this. But I
do think that there is that
pervasive idea, and especially
when we see so many stories
about mismanagement, you know,
in public sector, in the private
sector with, you know, and
everyone's is like, management
consultants charge X amount, you
(16:37):
know, last year, there is this
feeling of our consultants, you
know, what value can they bring.
But for me, I always think, you
know, when it comes to measuring
that effectiveness, it really
depends on what you do with the
information that the consultant
gives you. So there's, there's
two kind of modes of
responsibility here. So there's
(16:57):
a responsibility of the
consultant to provide the right
professional information, given
you know, whatever the topic is,
but then there's also your
responsibility to implement and
take on board those
recommendations and to actually
do something and do the work
that you have been advised that
you need to do. And when you
(17:19):
have that combination, you will
see the effectiveness of what
the consultant has brought to
the to the organisation, you
will see the value of that
you'll you'll basically get the
return on your investment. But
if there is a mismatch between
the two, either consultant not
giving you great advice, or
you're not implementing what
(17:40):
they've advised you to do, then
you are going to have an issue
in terms of seeing how effective
they are.
I remember I was working with an
engineering organisation, and
they'd set themselves very
specific gender pay gap targets.
And they brought me in because
(18:01):
they want, they understood that
their line managers didn't quite
get what the pay gap was, and
they wanted them to not only
understand that, but to
understand how it shows up
within workplaces. And to get an
idea of what it is that they
would need to do to support the
organisation to bring their
gender pay gap down and help
(18:21):
meet their ambitious target. So
I was like, Okay, fine. So I
went to and created the
training. And when it came to
giving feedback, I advised them
that obviously, I delivered the
training, and that they now had
a better understanding. But I
also shared with them their
concerns and challenges and
obstacles that line managers
felt that they had, that was
(18:41):
stopping them from being able
to, you know, really kind of
support, how support the pay gap
dropping, and they were sharing
with me what they needed from
the senior leaders, what they
needed from the HR team, to
enable them to make these
changes. And I could tell that
with my the contacts that I had,
(19:04):
I could tell that they were
disappointed. Because what they
wanted was for line managers to
go, Okay, we've got the
training, we now know what we
need to do, and then go off and
do it. What I was saying to them
is yeah, they understand what it
is that they need to do. But
what they're presenting you now
with is information around why
(19:25):
it's difficult for them to make
these changes and what they need
from you to enable them to do
that. And so here, this
organisation has an opportunity
to think about how effective the
advice that I've given them is
going to be now if they decide,
okay, yes, we need to implement
(19:47):
some of the recommendations that
Michelle has made and here are
the changes, they will see the
effectiveness of the advice I've
given them. If however, they
stay in that place of well,
that's not really what we
wanted. And so therefore, we're
not going to do any of those
things, then they won't see the
effectiveness of the advice
that's given. So can you see how
this is, you know how there's
(20:08):
two kinds of modes of
responsibility here? So if
you're concerned about bringing
somebody in, and you're
thinking, Oh, well, you know,
how effective are they going to
be? You have to remember that
you have to be responsible for
your part. So you have to, you
know, listen to what they have
to say. And obviously think
(20:28):
about, you know, does this make
sense for us as an organisation?
You know, Is there truth to what
this consultant is telling us,
and then make a decision as to
whether you're going to
implement things based on what
they've told you or not? So the
effectiveness kind of question
and concern really depends on
two parts. And it's not just the
consultant, it's you as an
organisation, as well. So they
(20:52):
are the top four issues that are
real stumbling blocks for
organisations like yourself to
hiring a pay gaps consultant. So
just to summarise what they
were, the issue around
disruption and how this might
raise people's expectations is a
(21:13):
real issue, the fear of change
or resistance to change and the
fact that some people might see
a consultant coming in and
making recommendations threat
into them and not wanting to
change the way that the way that
things currently run. The third
one was around budget concerns
and believing and thinking that
it's going to cost the earth. So
(21:34):
therefore, not having that
conversation, because you don't
want to be stuck on a zoom or
someone's telling you, it's
going to cost 1000s, hundreds of
1000s of pounds to address your
pay gap. And obviously, my
advice is, that's not always the
case. So get in those rooms and
get that get that information so
you can work based on fact,
rather than what you think. And
(21:56):
then the last issue that stops
people from hiring outside help
with their pay gaps is the
concerns around effectiveness.
And, you know, the advice that I
give is that if you're looking
for effectiveness, you have to
remember it's twofold. So it's
one the effectiveness of the
consultant in terms of the
advice that they give you, but
(22:17):
also what you choose as an
organisation to do with that
information that they give you.
So that is a wrap from me, I
hope that you found the episode
useful. You know, here equality
pays, we are really, really
focused on educating you on the
best approach to your unique pay
(22:39):
gaps because there is no one
size fits all when it comes to
solutions. So if you're ready to
approach your pay gaps
differently, then do book a
call, the link to join is in the
shownotes. So once again, thank
you so much for carving out the
time to hear what was shared on
today's podcast, if you found
this episode useful, and please
let your colleagues and peers
(23:00):
know all you have to do is share
the link with them and tell them
to listen. And if you haven't
already subscribed, then please
do and then that way, every time
a podcast episode is released,
it will get sent straight to you
and you don't have to go
searching for it and you won't
miss it. So thanks again. I will
see you next week where I'll be
(23:20):
doing the second part to this
two part episode about hiring a
pay gaps consultancy, and I'm
going to focus on the questions
that you should be asking for
pay gaps consultancy, and I will
share with you how I answer
them. So if that is of interest
to you, then tune into next
week's episode to find out more
(23:41):
bye for now.
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