A Bigger Table | Wendy Marvin, Founder & CEO, Matrix Roof & Home

Wendy Marvin started out in roofing at a time when the industry wasn’t as collaborative. “We saw there was one seat at the table, and we were going to elbow our way to that seat,” she recalls. “And then this really beautiful thing started taking over where we realized that we can just make more seats.” Since those days, the entire table has grown exponentially, and alongside that growth has come a need for a brand new skillset. In this engaging episode, Wendy reveals crucial tools for success in an era of private equity, new technologies, and the make-or-break requirement for operational excellence.

 

 

In this episode, you will learn:

• Wendy’s top source for business secrets
• The biggest red flags when picking a technology partner
• How AI can be good for a construction company…and when it could be really bad
• The man who used to be Wendy’s roofing “tech crush,” and why that changed

 

To learn more about Matrix Roof & Home based in Vancouver, Washington, visit https://matrixroof.com/.

 

 

Own a construction company and want to share your story? Apply to be on an upcoming episode of Builder Stories at https://www.builderstories.com

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Welcome to the podcast where we take a deep dive into thestories behind construction business leaders.
We will share how they got started,how they found success,
and the lessons learned along the way. I'myour host, Erik Fortenberry.
Welcome to Builder Stories.
How's it going everybody? I am so excited to be here today. Ihave Wendy Marvin who is the CEO of Matrix Home,

(00:26):
uh, sorry, Matrix Roof & Home. They arelocated in Vancouver, Washington.
Uh, Wendy is also the president of the RoofingTechnology Think Tank, also known as RT3,
and she is the chair of the National ResidentialRoofing Committee, uh, the NRCA.
Really excited to have you on to Builder Stories. Welcometo the show. So glad to have you, Wendy.

(00:46):
Thanks, Erik. Really appreciate youhaving me on. Great.
Yeah, so why, why don't you kinda just
open it up. Maybe, you know, gi- give us a littlebit of background, who you are,
you know, how did you get into construction and, and,and roofing in the first place, and then
maybe a little bit more about what, uh, what,what Matrix Roof & Home does.
Awesome. Awesome. Well, so that's alwaysa question, right, when
people look at me. They're not assuming that I'm aroofer or that I own a roofing company. So,

(01:10):
um, I actually, um, founded the company with myex-partner now, um, 18 years ago.
Um, I actually came from the healthcare
industry, 22 years working at hospitals and,and all kinds of fun stuff, but
had a business background. And so when wefounded the company, my, um, my
business partner was the roofer and Iwas the business, and,

(01:30):
um, and, you know, we founded the company on things that arereally important to us even today still, which is
customer service. And, you know,unfortunately
in the contracting world, if you answeryour phone and you show up on
time for appointments, you're better than, like,half of your competition, so... Um,
so yeah, so, um, fast forward 2016, '17, um, he needed to go adifferent direction and so I bought him out, and,

(01:55):
you know, kinda thought I'd be going backinto healthcare. And then
he just decided he wanted to do a different thing, and I thought,"I can't let this go." I, I love what I do. I,
I love our people. Um, we have about 15employees. Um, still small,
but, uh, focused sm- largely onresidential. Um,
branched out a little bit, you know, with myNRCA involvement and, and
some of the things that we're doing now, the smallcommercial and different things. But,

(02:18):
uh, just loving construction in general and, and helpingpeople and, and solving problems, so...
Yeah, that's awesome. So, you know, I,
I gotta ask. So y- you started the business withyour, with your partner at the time.
Yeah.
Uh, uh, so, so your, your lifepartner's as well
or was this...
Yeah. (laughs) Yeah, that was myhusband at the time, yeah.

(02:38):
Okay. So it's the husband andbusiness partner,
uh, you know, a- and then you had to sort of
split all of that, as, as what it sounds like. I mean, that,uh, uh, that's, that's great to hear that
the business didn't sorta go to shambles too.
Yeah.
Was that a, a... (laughs) You know, I, I hear all the timeabout mixing business and pleasure, and,
you know, it can often be a, you know, there'sa lot of risk in doing that.
Yeah.

(02:59):
So w- was, was, was it, uh, you know, and you, I don't haveto go too personal or anything, but like
did you find that starting a business together, didthat, you know, obviously put a lot of
strain on the, the, the personalrelationship as well?
You know, I didn't think so. Um, but, you know, oursplit in 2016 really was a divorce.
Um, and, and he ended up moving toFlorida, and, uh,

(03:20):
it just, um... I, I, I neverfelt like we, we,
you know, had any difficulties because of it, butwe did eat, sleep, and breathe,
you know, the business. And it's hard. We havekids and, and so, um, you know,
I think we did a really good job at that. He, he kinda justhonestly went through a mid-life crisis and
decided he wanted a differentlife, and, and, uh,

(03:40):
you know, when, when we went through all that I thought,"Oh, well, he'll keep the business and I'll
go back to healthcare." And then he decided to moveand I thought, "I just, again, I can't,
I can't give up on this." And I, and I thinkthe beauty of what happened is
we were very much next house, next vehicle, next, youknow, grow, grow, grow, money, money, money.
And when, when he left, I reallydiscovered our community roots

(04:03):
and, and found, um, Habitat forHumanity and, and our local
associations. I'm on some other boards, you know, herelocally, and, and just really found a,
um, our stride as a community partner
which I think is part of why we survived COVID. It'spart of why we've survived 18 years.
You know, when things have gone south, our phones still ringbecause people trust us and we've got a really

(04:26):
large community of people in our area that, that know us andlove us, and I, I'm really proud of that.
Yeah. Well, g- good on you for, uh... You know,again, uh, l- l- like I said, I think
a lot of times going through such a hardship,
you know, both kind of at the personal level andthe business level, often tends,
for the business, to sorta just, you know,
get, get, get thrown to the side and, and,and, you know, forgotten about.

(04:47):
Yep.
But it sounds like you really stepped
up and, you know, doubled down on it and bought 'em out andtook over the business and, you know, h- here
the, the rest is history. So that's, that'sawesome to see, Wendy, that, you know,
you were able to overcome that, you know, that, that hugechallenge. I mean, that obviously was,
was not an easy time of your life and,
you know, you, you kept going and, uh, you know,I think it's, it's really neat.
You know, I think the, the, the otherinteresting thing here to see is that,

(05:09):
you know, and, and I see this alot, a lot of times,
you know, when, when people start up abusiness, you know, th- they may have,
you know, the, the trade, theconstruction side-
Yeah. (laughs)
... or they may have the business side,
and, and a lot of times people will sort of justtry to put on that other hat,
and it can be very, very challenging andultimately can burn them out.
You know, but, but what you all hadwas that partnership,

(05:29):
you know, where, where you focused on thebusiness, he focused on
the construction side, and I thinkthat's a great way
for others, you know, going into this, or if youmay have already found yourself
owning a construction business, like, you know,finding a partner who can bring,
you know, that, the, the skillset that youdon't have and you can build that-
Mm-hmm.
... that team together to make sure that bothsides of the house are being

(05:50):
focused on and addressed. I mean, that is how youcan create a very successful business
a whole lot quicker than, you know, if you're justgoing at it alone and having to sorta,
you know, keep kinda managing that half of thebusiness but then learning as you go.
The other side, you know, can be a lot more challenging.So I, I, I imagine kinda having that,
that partnership upfront was, wasvery beneficial.
Yeah. And it's, and it's really impo- impor-

(06:11):
an important part of why I got involved in,in the boards in NRCA and,
um, I was on Western States for awhile too, is,
um, I believe that a lot of really goodcraftsmen open businesses,
but they really don't have the business side. And, andyou're right. They're, they're two sides of the,
of the same horse, you know,basically, and, and
if you're missing any of those legs it just doesn't work.And, or, or it does work, it works for a while.

(06:36):
Mm-hmm.
But I think it's a big thing of, you know, why we have so manyfailures in businesses in the roofing industry
is just that really great people go in with well intentions,and they're, and they're good at what they do,
but they don't pay their taxes on time or,you know, or, or, or. So
I was lucky, um, you know, when we split
I, I went to all of the employees and I just said,"Look, here's what's going on. Um, I'm

(06:57):
gonna be the owner going forward,"which surprised all of us,
and, uh, "You know, are you gonnastay?" And, and they all
stayed and, um, my operations manager stepped in andbecame, you know, the, the chief estimators and
we just kinda went right along and keptgoing. We were very lucky.
Um, but yeah. Both sides is, arevery important. And,
as a business owner, as thebusiness side of it,
I also wasn't blind to what was going onout in the field either.

(07:20):
Um, and I think that's another part is that even if you are theroofing side or the installation/production,
you have to have a handle of, of what's happening. Youcan, you can hire people you trust,
but you have to know about how to dochecks and balances.
Yeah, absolutely. So what, like, what do you... Youknow, when, when you think about,
you know, making sure that you have,
you know, the right systems, processes, like,

(07:42):
just even the right sort of knowledge. I mean, you know, a lotof people, they don't know what they don't know.
Mm-hmm.
You know, what would yourrecommendation be for someone who,
you know, again, may- maybe they came
from the construction side, that's where their roots are butthey're now trying to build the business side.
You know, there's, there's always say that, thatdebate, you know, do you have to,
you know, have, have a college degree or havea business degree or an MBA?

(08:02):
Like, is that required to, to be successful as,as an entrepreneur and a business
owner? And I mean, obviously theanswer is no.
Mm-hmm.
But what would you suggest, like,you know, for, for
people that, that feel likethey're, they're lacking
or they're, or they know that they're lacking insome of those, those business skills.
Are there resources or ways that they cango and kind of, you know,
gain that experience and thatknowledge without having to,

(08:22):
you know, obviously go back to, to schooland get a degree in it?
Yeah. It's a lot. You know, I'll tell you, I, I'm a, I'm a classshy of my bachelor's but it was in healthcare.
I actually was in nursing school. Um,
and I, you know, I, I basically have my associate's.So I'm not a, I'm not an educated in,
in terms of the normal word, youknow, person.
But, um, I think the biggest key to oursuccess was we joined associations.

(08:45):
And, you know, if that's your state association, ifthat's your regional association, if that's
the national, which is, you know, the NRCA,
um, that's the place I think you can really, um, getyour hooks into some free resources.
And then, you have to engage, right?
It does, it's not gonna, it's not gonna come to you. You'vegotta, you've gotta go to the events and
stuff, and attend, and... You know, I know we alllove to go to, like, Western States and

(09:07):
it's in Vegas and it's always exciting and good dinners and lotsof alcohol. But, you know, go to the classes.
(laughs) And, uh, and, and, you know, sit at thecircle bar down there at The Paris
and, and talk to othercontractors. I, I learned
so much from, from some of these boards that I've been on oreven just getting to know people. And, um,
I guess part of the benefit of who I am is that I'mfearless in chatting with people. But,

(09:31):
you know, I, I, I've learned from the guy
who put on the roof for the Dallas Cowboy'sstadium, and I'm just a little
residential roofer in Vancouver, Washington. And,and people in our industry are just
really caring and willing and wanting to helpand keep people going. And,
um, yeah. So plug into free resources. Um, it couldbe even your local community college,
to learn about finance or different things.

(09:53):
Um, and then, you know, find some mentors in theindustry. I think those are some two
really, two really good places to start.
Yeah. I, I couldn't, couldn't agree
more. And, and, you know, we, we were just at the,the International Roofing Expo and,
you know, just, uh, the, the, theeducation that-
Yeah.
... was provided, I, I, I think that was sortof a little bit surprising.
You know, a lot of these, these big conferences andshows like y- you always kinda... The big

(10:14):
focus is on the exhibit hall andall the vendors and,
and, and the manufacturers and checking out the new productsand things that are out there. But it's like,
you know, if, if you actually wanna maximize youropportunity to, to be at these events,
it's making sure that you're showing up early and goingto those education sessions, listening
to the panel discussions. Like, it's such a greatway to pick up so many different,
you know, nuggets of, of information. Andwhen you can hear from others

(10:37):
who have been in your shoes, who have gone-
Yeah.
... through the trenches, who haveovercome these challenges, like,
i- it's just so invaluable. And, and, andI think enough people,
you know, don't stop and take the time
or understand the importance of, like,
professional and, you know, personal andprofessional development for themself.
Yeah.
You know, and that's, and that's where Ithink, you know, just that,
that focus on education and continually

(10:58):
learning and growing and... And just 'cause you've been doingit for the last 20, 30, 40 years, however many
years, you know, you, you've beenin business, like,
you know, and you think you got it down, it's like,you know, if you really wanna keep up,
you know, you gotta keep learning and keep anopen mind about maybe there's a
new way, maybe there's a new technology-
Yeah.
... a new product. Like, you know,that's, it's just so
valuable, you know, as, as, as leaders in, in businessesto, to stay up to speed with everything.

(11:21):
Yep. Well, and you hit it for me, is, is, you know, you get totalk to that other person that's in the room who...
They, they may have made a comment and you'relike, "Oh, my gosh. Me too."
And there's always a me too somewhere there.
Yeah.
And it, you know, it, it could be where you least expect it.Like I said, these large contractors that, that,
you know, you, you hope to aspireto be someday,

(11:42):
um, they're willing to share too. But, youknow, it could be the guy from
West Virginia that you just sit next
to and you're like, "Man, I'm," you know, "I don't knowabout AI," or, "I'm scared about technology,"
or, "I don't know what, how to estimate,"or, "I'm looking for a new,
um, CRM." And, you know, that's how wefound you guys. It's like-
Yeah.
... you know? Just those kind of conversationsare, like you said, invaluable.
Yeah. S- so one other thing before we go to the,kind of the technology stuff.

(12:04):
Mm-hmm.
I, I'm, I'm curious, you know, I... In, in a lot ofdifferent industries, I, I see people,
you know, where their, you know, th- theyfeel like their competition is,
you know, th- they just, th- they can'tcollaborate. They can't, you know-
Yeah.
... kinda get too close to them. Theycan't work together. I mean,
what would you say, you know, kind of in the roofingindustry, what do you think about,
you know, when people are competing,
you know, in the local markets? I mean, obviously roofingcan be a very competitive arena. I mean,

(12:28):
i- is, is there that same kind of competitive dynamic wherethey, they don't wanna work together and,
and share best practices, tips,tricks, help each
other? Or do you see it more of acollaborative, you know, community?
You know, it's interesting. Um, so when
I, when I started really getting involved in thisdeeply was about 2015, so 10 years ago.
Um, and I don't feel like it was ascollaborative. I feel like it was a

(12:49):
lot of... And, and even in the womenin the room, you know,
we really saw each other as there was one seat at the tableand, and we were gonna elbow our way to that
seat kinda thing. And then, this really
beautiful thing kinda started taking over where werealized that we can just make more seats.
And, and I think that, you know, there's, there's a,there's a different energy to that where you,
um, where you recognize that, you know,

(13:11):
no, I don't wanna talk to my exact competitorin Vancouver, Washington. But,
you know, if I have to talk to somebody elsein Washington and they're in
Seattle or I talk to people in Portland or Italk to people in Colorado,
we're all fighting the same fight. And it's amazing,business is business is business and,
and how you can get those tools and trade. Sofast forward to today, I would say
the industry as a whole has reallymoved towards more

(13:34):
collaboration. Because I, I feellike we're this weird,
um...
We used to be this weird little step-child, ifyou will, you know, and, and we,
o- of the construction industry. And nobodyreally paid a lot of attention to it,
even though it's such an integralpart of the world.
And, and then, you know, thensomebody recognized that
suddenly now we're, we're recognized tobe an i-... I'm gonna

(13:56):
misquote the figure but it's like an$800 billion industry.
And now we've got data coming out of ourears and we've got, you know,
PEs coming, private equity firms trying to buy usout. We've got all these things
and I think people realize that, holymoly, our sleepy little world
woke up and, and we've got these20-something-year-olds
that are data analytic people moving in,opening roofing companies. And

(14:18):
I think that it kinda pushed people over the edge into,like, "Holy moly, I need help." And-
Yeah.
... and it's beautiful because, again,it's changed our culture but
I'm, I love this culture. I've, th- this industry is just anamazing thing to be a part of, wherever you are.
Yeah. No, I, I agree. And, you know, for, for us kind of, a-again, this is our first sort of time to go in,

(14:39):
um, you know, to the, to the IRE event. And I mean, just like,you could feel that community. You could feel-
Mm-hmm.
... like, the excitement, the optimism, the,
the desire to, to, to work togetherand improve and,
you know, looking for, for newtechniques, new
technologies, products. I mean, I, I think thatwas, like, really exciting to be,
you know, to be there and be part of that.
You know, and, and I think the other interesting thing,you know, what I've, what I've heard from a

(15:00):
lot of discussions, you know, with, withother roofers is like,
you know, I, I... We have some of our, of ourroofing customers who, like, they've,
they have basically given us all their budgettemplates, everything. They're like, "Please
share this out." They want, you know, everyone out therebecause, you know, th- there, there are,
you know, again, kind of the, thosecontractors who,
you know, they, they don't understand their value,they don't know their numbers. They're
coming in, they're just trying to undercut,

(15:21):
you know, and win on price. And, andthey don't realize that
they're, they're actually just, you know, uh, shootingthemselves in the foot because they can't-
Yep.
... pay their people what theyneed. They don't know
that they're not making enough money to keep the buz-business going. They're cutting corners. Like,
ultimately, like, it's, it's, you know, thosecontractors who are dragging the industry down
and creating that bad reputation, you know, for everyoneelse. And so, to the extent that we can help

(15:43):
elevate and raise up, you know, tho- those people and makethem into more, you know, credible contractors-
Yep.
... I think a- as, as the industry, uh, as a wholeevolves, it's gonna improve the experience,
you know, and the reputation foreveryone. So it's,
you know, th- they're really doing notjust themselves a disservice
but i- it's hurting the entire industry. And so, to theextent that, like, everyone can learn and grow

(16:05):
and, and become, you know, more reputable, more trustworthycontractors, I, I think it, it'll have a, a
much bigger impact on the, on the communityand the industry as a whole.
100%. They say a rising tide lifts all boats. That'swhat, that's what I keep hearing and
it's so true. And, and you know what's sad is,is those guys that are out there
undercutting and, and trying to do it cheap, or, or buyingseconds and just not being good humans,

(16:27):
th- they're one mistake away fromclosing. And, you know-
Yep.
... I opened in '07, if you can imagine, the lasttime we had the huge recession. And
we were dumb and young and, you know, and,
and, uh... But it's interesting to have lived throughthat a few times now and watched as,
you know, the, the, the boom is great andeverybody opens a business and then
things have a little bit of a hiccup, likekinda where we're at right now,

(16:49):
and they start to see a slowdown and they're,
you know, they're, they're not able to keepthings going. And I think that,
um, you've hit it a couple times, but data.Man, data, right? Is key to-
Oh-
... knowing where you are, knowing who youare, knowing what you can do.
Um, small things like having yourfinancials in,
in basic order. I mean, we were able to applyfor a PPP loan during COVID,

(17:11):
um, in, like, two days.And, and it, you know, peoplewere out there trying to create a, a
profit and loss, and, and, and that's alot of scary wasted energy
when the whole world was clamoring to getsome of that money. So,
yep, yep.
Hello.
Just getting your stuff in order.
So, so I'm curious, you know, o- over, over,
you know, the last several years, I mean,obviously, you've, you've seen
a big shift in, you know, technology-

(17:34):
Mm-hmm.
... and data and, and how, you know, roofing contractors can,can really embrace and leverage this to build,
you know, much more scalable, successful,profitable businesses. Like,
what, h- how would you kind of describe that, thatlandscape? H- you know, what was it like,
you know, back in the early 2000s, and, and, and how has itevolved, you know? And, and where would you kind of,
you know, encourage people who haven't yet embracedtechnology? Like, what, what's been the

(17:57):
impact that it's, it's had on you personally in yourbusiness, and what would you, you know, advise them?
It's a freight train. There is no way, other wayto say it. I remember being at
IRE in western states back in the early 2000s andhaving three or four technology
people there, you know, and, and a lot of 'em werepeople from the roofing industry who

(18:17):
were mad because they didn't have a good CRM option andthey opened their own company, kinda thing.
Um, to today we had, I, I don't know, do youknow how many people were at IRE
in your... It was, like, a tech area andthere were, like, 100
of, of companies there. And, um,
you know, I, I think it's, I think it's hard because they,like we talked about earlier, that, um,
that the industry is veryconservative and slow-moving,

(18:40):
justifiably so because we tech-... we
technically don't move away from things thatwork because that's risky,
and there's a lot of risk associated in what we do. Sowe've been kinda the tried-and-true,
you know, companies. And, um, andnow what's happening
is there's a bunch of people entering ourindustry who maybe aren't roofers,
but they recognize the, the, the monetary

(19:01):
op- opportunities and, you know, they'recoming in with, with these huge
data companies and they're using, they're leveragingsatellites and they're, and they're
od-... They're letting people buy a roof online andthey don't even see the roof, you know?
I laughed about that the first time Iheard it, and yet, you know,
I have a subset of customers that, that do that,basically. We don't ever meet them.
They call and say, "We love you, your reputation.You've done my friend's house.

(19:24):
Just tell me how much and, and tell me whenyou're gonna be there," and
they don't even live here orsomething, you know? So,
um, I feel like it's, it, it's abeautiful thing. I
feel like to the, to the guys moving reallyfast, I wanna say, "Slow down,"
because, um, it's a very risky industry, and thefirst time you have an attorney call you
about a lawsuit, um, you're gonna, you're gonna wishthat you had paid more attention.

(19:47):
Um, and to the guys that are still out there using yellowpads, because we still have those in our industry
too, I call them, I lovingly call them my
dinosaurs on RT3, and, you know, I tell 'em, "You gottaget going or you're gonna get run over
because there's just too much going on." Um,
back to memberships, you know, theassociation, the RT3, that was a real
big reason why I got involved with that, is,

(20:09):
you know, we have a, we have an AI guide, we have atechnology guide. We're trying to
prevent, um...
You know, w- when a lot of people enter anindustry, there's a risk
associated with the companies that come in 'cause some wantto make a quick buck and they don't wanna,
you know, they... I- I always wanted to bethat contractor that if I
see you in the grocery store, you're not, I'mnot gonna have to run from you,

(20:30):
and, and I feel that way about tech companies,right? Like, like, there's a
billion of 'em out there right now, butthere's quite a few of 'em that
if... especially that we've already beenthrough and been hurt by that
if I saw them in the grocery store,they better run. And, uh,
and, uh, and so, you know, I became part ofthe team to try to protect
some of these smaller companies, newer companies frommaking the mistakes that I made, 'cause
you pay $10,000 and you find out a company only hasDOS-based photos all of a sudden, and

(20:55):
the next time I learn that, that that'san expensive lesson. And
so I wanna try to help, you know, keep people,keep people learning as they go.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so y- y- you did hit the nailon the head. I mean, there, there are,
you know, quite a few technology companies and, you know,again, I've, I've seen a lot of 'em. They,
they pop up, they go for a coupleyears, and then
realize that, you know, they just can'tget the traction or they,

(21:16):
you know, they didn't truly understand the need orbuild the right solution. They kinda just,
you know, go, go right back down.But, you know, when-
Or they had bad customer service.
Yep, bad customer service.
(laughs)
You know, didn't focus on the right things.
Yep.
You know, h- how... You know, w- w- withso many options out there,
you know, how should people be thinkingabout, you know, evaluating
and, and trying to find the right technologypartners for their business? Like,

(21:40):
are there... Uh, you know, and, and you havethat guide that's available-
Mm-hmm.
... you know, with, uh, with RT3, which is great, but like, arethere any kinda high-level things that you can
share about, like, just important, you know,
things that you need to look for, or any gotchas,like things that you didn't learn,
you know, or had to learn the hard way going in kind of,because, you know, it can be overwhelming to people
to, to try to decide, "Well, you know,what do I implement?"

(22:01):
So any sort of guidance on thatwould, would be awesome.
Yeah. So,
you know, for me, the biggest thing is, is that, um, youcan't get away from knowing who you are.
So my technology search was very difficultbecause I wanted a company
to be very heavy on the CRM side for me andstill have the production,
because I want, you know, you to callmy company and, and

(22:23):
my people to say, "Eric, it's so good tohear from you. Oh my gosh, I,
I see that we did your roof back in 2013. Are youcalling for a cleaning?" Or, you know,
th- that personal touch. And noteverybody's looking for that, so,
you know, there's a lotta companiesout there that, that
didn't have the CRM that I kinda t- tested and tried anddidn't like. So you have to get, you have to get
nuts and bolts on who you are,what you wanna be.

(22:45):
Are you a, you know, are you a fast-paced justa roofing installation company
and you're gonna use subs? Are younot using subs?
And then you kinda have to look for your techstack. We talk a lot about tech stack,
um, that you're gonna look for the companies thatyou're gonna, you know, partner with.
And then, um, and then second is, isyou have to know that
99% of the time, you guys are anexception to this rule,

(23:09):
but salesmen will tell you anything and everythingto get you to sign the paperwork,
and you have to do some research on your own.
And, um, you know, I always recommend if you take the nameof the company and look at their reviews,
you will learn so much about a company,and, and you have to throw,
you know, a few bad out and a few good out, but what... overallwhen you look at something, you're gonna know.

(23:31):
Um, even within our industry, you know,there's, there's, um,
manufacturing reps that'll go, "Oh, it'sgreat. We- you can...
We signed up with this finance company."And, and you think, "Gosh, I'm
with this manufacturer and I'm, I'm aMaster Elite (laughs) and, uh,
you know, I can, I can, I can trust them," andit's like, they're doing the same
thing. They're just... They're making agreements andsales, and sometimes they're not vetting. So

(23:54):
you gotta, you gotta ask the questions, you gotta know who youare, you gotta know what you want. And then
my biggest mistake, and, and this was a reallyprofound thing for me at IRE, is,
um, you've got to recognize the value ofyour customer base data,
um, who those people are, what they bought from you, who theyare in the community, different things, and

(24:18):
you have to own that data. And having tried a few companiesthat are out there, and they're still around,
um, you know, when I went to leave, I got a basic CRVfile that was crap that we didn't have.
We lost data. We lost two years ofdata of customers that
now if you call and you happen to be an install we did in'19 or twel-... you know, whenever it was,

(24:40):
I don't know who you are like that. I don'tgive you the same service based,
you know, um, relationship that I wanted to. And so, yeah,owning your data and, and kn- knowing how,
you know, the... It's like a marriage. When, when we're great,th- when we're together, but when we leave,
what's that gonna look like, and, and, andasking those really hard questions.
Yeah, I was, uh, I was, I was veryshocked to, to learn

(25:04):
and to actually go, you know, kindaread some of the,
the Master, uh, subscription agreements,
you know, with some of those other companies outthere, like, the fact that, like,
they own your data is just, like, the mostmind-boggling thing I could ever imagine.
Yep.
Like, for me, I, I...You know, it's like we, wevery clearly state, like, "This is
our customer's data. It is yourdata, not ours.

(25:25):
We can't sell it. We can't use it. You know, we can'teven look at it without your permission."
You know, it, it, it is so important in this day andage that, like, you really understand,
you know, who owns the data, the dataprivacy, everything around it,
you know, because at the end of the day,you know, especially with,
you know, w- with, with software companies whoare working with, you know,
hundreds, thousands of, of, of differentbusinesses similar to yours,

(25:47):
you know, what are they doing with your data?
Yeah.
You know? (laughs) You know, if- does that mean that ifsomeone comes in and just pays them a fortune,
they're gonna just sell your data toyour, your competitor? Like,
that, that is, that is so crazy to think that,like... And, and I just couldn't even
imagine that, that that wasactually a reality
with some of these other companies outthere, especially the-
these, these large companies who have beendoing this for so long. And so,

(26:08):
you know, it was, uh, it was very eye-opening to, to, torealize that and learn that. So I, I agree with you.
You know, you really need to understand and read thatfine print. You know, whose data is it?
Uh, and, and, and like you said too, I mean,
you know, you, you, you talked about theimportance of, you know,
doing the research and, and knowing, you know, what is thereputation? I mean, it's the same thing that any-

(26:28):
anyone, you know, o- o- of, of your customers, they need togo, and they need to research your company.
Yeah.
And, and your online reputation is so importantthese days. I mean, tha- that's what,
you know, has, has, has led to, you know, to ourtremendous growth. And, like,
honestly, like, we only talk to probably, like, half thepeople that sign up for, for JobTread now
because they are able to learn so much
online from the videos and the testimonials and the reviews andall the content that we put out there. Like,

(26:52):
you know, go do your research.You can't just,
you know, trust. Like you said, like, a salesperson isgonna... You know, they're, they're, they're gonna
just tell you what you wanna hear. They're doingtheir job, you know? And I hope our,
our team's not... I, I, I, I genuinelybelieve that, like, we
wanna make sure that everycustomer is a good fit-
Mm-hmm.
... and that we'll be able to, to get inthere and to implement,
and that it's gonna work becauseotherwise, you know,

(27:13):
j- w- we're just wasting our time, you know?We're wasting your time, your money,
you know? It's just so much easier (laughs) to makesure you bring in the right customers,
you know? And so I, I think that, you know,people do need to take the time,
you know, to go do their own research. Go watch the videosonline. Go talk to other people who have been,
you know, with those companies. Maybe they'vebeen there, they've switched. Like,
why? What happened? You know, s- spend thattime to, to network. And,

(27:36):
and I think even before, you know, you talkedabout, like, the importance of knowing,
you know, your, your own companyand your own needs.
Mm-hmm.
If you don't know what problemsyou're trying to solve,
then, you know, again, you're gonna
just kind of sort of stumble around and thenfinally get sold on something. Say, "Oh.
Yeah, that'd be a great thing." But, like,was that really an issue?
Yeah.
You know, I think it's so important. And, and when I ran theconstruction company, like, I went and I shadowed

(27:57):
every single f- person in the company and,like, tried to understand
their day-to-day, their roles. I'd look for,what are the bottlenecks?
You know, what are the things that you'respending your time doing
that, that, that, one, are driving you nuts,they feel like they're making
you inefficient, non-productive?You know, like,
what... If I could take away one thing thatdrives you crazy, what would it be?
You know, and like, when you go and takethe time to understand that,

(28:19):
that's gonna help you, you know, when you're going on yoursearch, know, "Hey, here's my checklist of, of, of
challenges that we're having. Will thissolution meet that need?
Yes, yes, no, okay." You know, like, sogoing through that and kinda
knowing what you're looking for, I think,is, is, is really helpful.
Processes, processes, processes,right? (laughs)
Yeah.
You know, we missed also, too, though... Sorry, didn'tmean to interrupt you. Um, is data.

(28:43):
And, and we talked a lot about that, but we didn't talkabout customer service. And, and to me,
that's where you guys shine. And, and, and that's whereit's, it... Here's a little secret, is like,
if, if the company that you're looking at isplaying well with others,
if the company that you're looking atactually really does have open,
you know, API in the backend and, andare willing to try to

(29:05):
do what they can to
c- coordinate with the company that'simportant to you. Like,
say it's Sage or say it'sQuickBooks or whatever,
um, and, and if they're willing to giveyou training for free
and not try to charge you. When, when you're looking atcompanies and they're nickel-and-diming you
on the front end, and they wanna charge you for setup, andthey wanna char-... They're gonna do that to you

(29:26):
throughout the course of thelife. And, you know,
ultimately, we'd love to kid ourselves and saywe're making a choice that's gonna,
you know, grow with my company from100,000 to five million, and
that's probably not the case, but, but leaving itpainful, and retraining it painful, and,
and you wanna... You know, if somebody's telling you who theyare on the front end, you should believe 'em.

(29:46):
Yeah. You know, I think that's, that's, that's a greatpoint. I mean, you know, e- evaluating
all of the resources that areavailable to you,
you know, i- from, from help desk. Is there, you know,is there support teams? Can you call in?
You know, a- are you being outsourced or routed to, youknow, to, to some other, you know, offshore e-
Yeah.
... entity that doesn't understand the product very well?Like, you know, what, what are those resources?

(30:09):
You know, and, and, and I'll say from our, you know, fromour perspective... I mean, I think we, we do
a really good job here, but I still believe that people don'ttap into those resources as much as they should.
Mm-hmm.
You know? A- a- and, and again, Imean, we don't
charge for, you know, support and trainingand all that. I, I know
some other companies might, you know, which kinda begs thequestion of, well, i- is it really, like, that
time-consuming that, that you gotta, like,

(30:29):
charge for, for training? But-
Right.
... you know, a- at the end of the day, like-
(laughs)
... you know, these, these people, you know,
on, at least on our customer success team,I mean, like, we only hire
people that have experience in construction. Theyunderstand what you're going through. They know,
you know, the challenges that you're gonnahave, and we've implemented,
you know, thousands and thousands of, of,of companies on this. Like,
that is an invaluable resource for you. And being ableto tap into that person and have them

(30:52):
as an extension of your company whenever you havechallenges or need help. Like,
you know, reach out, call 'em, call intothose support teams. Like,
you know, again, they have, they have seen
all sorts of things and can give yougreat guidance and advice,
you know, if you ask for it and if you want it and youwanna learn how others are doing it.
Yeah.
Like, that is just, like, invaluable, and Ithink a lot of times that
i- i- it's hard to sort of quantify or evenunderstand the value of that going into,

(31:16):
you know, a, a, a, you know, partnership with a, with asoftware or technology company. But man,
like, that can make the world ofdifference. And again, just
help you, you know, hopefully, uh, you know, skipa couple of those hard lessons-
Yeah.
... and get yourself set up a lot quicker,
you know, for success than having to, you know,having to learn and, and, and stumble.
You said it, it's a partnership, and that's what wefelt one million percent from you guys.

(31:37):
I've had other companies go, "Well, yeah, wedon't have an open API because that,
that puts our company at risk." And I'm like,"Well, I used to be in IT, and
yeah, I know there are some extra steps you haveto do to protect yourself, but
that's not very customer-centric." Or, "Yeah,
we've looked at that, and it doesn't work." And it's like,"Well, this is really important to me, so
can you help me figure out a way around it?" "Oh, no, wereally don't have any solutions for that."

(31:58):
(laughs)
And it's like, again, when someone's telling you who theyare as a partner, you gotta believe 'em. And-
Yeah.
... you guys have always been, "You know what? Idon't have the answer right now,
but let me figure out what it is." And,
or, "Hey, we're working on that, and, and
this is has to be coming through first, thenwe're gonna get to that." You're,
you guys are just always, "Yes, and, and let'sfigure it out." And that's,

(32:18):
that's how I am with the company withmy customers. You know?
Yeah.
And, and I, I just believe in, in having thatdifferent mindset. And I, I think that
the good news is, I think that those companies like us and,and it doesn't matter what industry you're in.
Companies like us are really gonna be thepeople that hang around and survive
as we e- get gobbled up in the PEs and theworld changes and all these other

(32:40):
things. It's like, basic human decency and
taking care of each other is what's gonnacome back to matter, I think.
A- absolutely. And, you know, y-you brought up a
really important point, and for anyone out there listening,you know, API, it's, it's an application
programming interface. And what that really means is it'sthe ability to, to programmatically connect
two applications together so that they canshare and transfer data,

(33:03):
you know, without you having tomanually move things over.
You know, it's just a really great way. And,
and I think a lot of times too, it'simportant to understand, like,
there, there is no one silver bullet.There's, there's no, like-
Mm-hmm.
... one, you know, software or technologysolution that's gonna be able to do
every single thing you need foryour business.
And, uh, you know, that, that, that's,that's just a pipe dream.
You know, the, the thing that you have tounderstand is that you have to figure out,

(33:24):
you know, what are all of the keytechnologies that you need?
And, and as you described, when it's, it'sbuilding your technology stack.
Mm-hmm.
You know? And, and what we also believe here at JobTread is,like, we wanna help you create that connected
ecosystem of all of thetechnologies that you need
to efficiently and effectively run your business. Andmaking sure that each one of those pieces

(33:45):
can connect and interface together
is how you create that, that, that mostpowerful tech stack.
You know, versus if you have a bunch of, you know,point solutions that are kind of
off in their own silo and theycan't communicate,
you know, now you're just creating duplicate
effort.... you know, you're, you're, you'reopening up this opportunity for manual,
you know, mistakes and, and, and, and, and
fat fingering things. And, you know, it just, it, it, itactually can create more inefficiencies.

(34:08):
Mm-hmm.
And so I think when you evaluate and you look for thesetechnologies, I mean, you know, again, a, a
lot of the, the, the more, uh, an-ancient, archaic, uh, older,
you know, technology solutions i- if, if you will,you know, I, I think again, like
APIs and, and, and this whole kind of, you know, datatransfer and, and, and working together,
you know, that, that wasn't as much of a thing, andthat's, that's more of a more modern,

(34:28):
you know, kinda revolution that, thatwe've, we've seen with
software and technology. And so it's important that youmake sure that those possibilities are there.
Mm-hmm.
You know, whether you wanna build andextend it yourself,
you know, or you just want to know that thosecompanies can work together
to create that ultimatesolution, you know, for
you. I, it, it's just such an important thingthat I think a lot of people,
they don't quite understand as, as the endconsumer how valuable that really is.

(34:51):
Well, and we use acronyms all the time, right? And I'm justas guilty as you are 'cause we're used to it.
But, you know, to me, you, you touched on itbut I really wanna hit it, is
I reached a point where my intakes, my, my peopleanswering the phones were entering data into five
different places. And when that happens, it's slow,it's inefficient, and it has a high

(35:14):
likelihood of issues, of mistakes.
Yeah.
And it's not that they're aproblem, it's just
we're, we're moving very fast, we're avery lean, small team, and,
and those were the solutions that Istarted going, "Wow, what is
this?" And then we started learningabout API, and then,
then we got a lot of doors shut in our faces. Andthen we started learning about
companies that are like, "Well, no, we, we can do API."You know, it, yes, it's some work, but

(35:37):
we can do that, and to me, that'sthe company I'm gonna
grow with. That's a partner that I'mgonna be with. That's,
you know, that's the positive. And,
and I, and I think that's a big deal, is to
look at your company. It might be running...
I'd mentioned the guy, I love SteveLittle, and this is
Kpost Roofing Company that did theDallas Cowboys Stadium,
but I remember having such a, like, techcrush on him and thinking that

(35:58):
I wanted to be that company someday, and when wewent and toured his business,
he had a tech silo where his repair division couldn't eventalk to his commercial roofing division.
Sure.
And it's because they chose a company that's siloed,and it's because, you know. And so
there's all these things out therethat you think,
you think it's, it's a small person problem, butit's, like, this is universal

(36:20):
in all businesses, in all industries,
and, and to try to find someone who's gonna helpyou try to figure it out is, is
key, I think.
Yeah. You know, and I think that's, uh,that, that's kind of
an interesting perspective that, that we've had aswell. You know, obviously we work with
any type construction business,you know, from,
you know, from roofing to, to pool builders,to deck builders, there are

(36:40):
remodelers, home builders, you name it.
Yeah.
You know, we've, we very intentionally have designedJobTred to be, you know, able to be customized
through the content and through your ownprocesses so that it can work for
any one of these types of businesses.But I can tell you,
you know, having thousands of, of customers in all thesedifferent industries, like, the under, you know,
the under-, uh, you know, kind ofprocesses, the, the,

(37:01):
the fundamentals of managing these, thesebusinesses, they're all the same.
Mm-hmm.
It's, it's, it's all the same processesthat need to be in place.
We're doing the same blocking and tackling.
You know, you're, you're, you're having the same challengeswith marketing and sales and production and
providing a great clientexperience. Like, it,
the, the actual trade is, is, is not,
you know, as important as, you know,making sure that your

(37:22):
systems and processes are set up to workfor you and your team
so that you can efficiently deliver thatgreat customer experience and,
and that, that end product that,that you're selling.
Yeah.
You know, I think a lot of people,
you know, they, they, they just kinda come inand they just keep throwing
bodies at problems, and, and theythink, "Man, we're-"
And money.
"... you know, we're, we're getting
bogged down, that, you know, we just need tohire more people." And they

(37:43):
just keep bringing in people and people, and they don'ttake the time to stop and say, "Wait.
Let's look at the underlying, like, youknow, bottleneck here.
Yeah.
What is the root issue, and is there a moreefficient and effective way to do that?"
And that's where, you know, again, for
a, a nominal fraction of, of asingle employee,
you know, you can probably deploy sometechnology into your business

(38:03):
that will save you a fortune, it'll makeeveryone more efficient,
you know, versus just continuing to,
to hire people and, and, and keep doing the samething over and over and expecting
a different outcome. Uh, you know, that's like thedefinition of insanity, right? Like-
Yeah.
... you have to be able to go and find amuch better, more smarter
and efficient way to operate the businessif you wanna scale it.
100%. I do have to add the caveat that Stevefigured it out. He and his team got,

(38:27):
got their solutions figured out, so Idon't wanna leave them
thinking that they're not, they didn'tget it together. But yeah,
it's, it's, it is, and it's funny, you know,I say business is business.
I've probably learned some of the biggest secretsthat I use to keep my business moving
from places that were not my industry.
So, you know, I, I, I'm involvedin my community,
and I talk about associations. It doesn'tjust have to be your industry.

(38:49):
You know, it can be, um, your chamber of, of
commerce groups. It can be, I've learned some really greatthings from some realtor groups that we belong
to, just ways that they interact with customers that I waslike, "Huh, I kinda like that. I'd like to
pick that up." And, and so, you know, to me,
uh, sitting on a plane, sitting in a bar,there's always nuggets around you.

(39:11):
Don't... Yeah. You're, you're,you're brilliant. Don't,
don't pigeonhole yourself into any one industrybecause business is business is business.
Yeah. Absolutely. And that's, you know, I, I thinkthat's, like, one of the coolest things about
JobTred is the community that we've beenable to create with all these
different types of, of buildersand contractors-
Yeah.
... who, you know, they come together, you know, in, in ouronline Facebook group, JobTread Pros, or,
you know, at our, at our boot camps, or ourannual user conferences, and, like,

(39:34):
I, I can't tell you the number of people that havetold me they have learned so much
from looking at other types ofbusinesses in other industries.
You know, because obviously, you know, uh,you're, you're naturally,
you know, gonna focus on your industry and looking atthe same types of businesses, but, like,
there's so many other different ideas that youmight not ever thought about
when you look at a different industry
and how they have figured out ways to become moreefficient. And a lot of it really can translate,

(39:59):
you know, so I think that's, you know, that'sone of the neat things. And,
and, and, you know, again, I, Ithink too when,
you know, when, when I think about and I, andI look at, like, some of the
software specifically in theroofing space, like,
you know, they, they've, they've sort ofpigeonholed themselves to only be able
to, to work with, you know, roofing.
And, and what we're seeing is a lot ofcontractors... I mean,
you know, you're, you're, you're already out there. You know,you may be looking at the exterior of the home.

(40:20):
Mm-hmm.
You might see opportunities to, to, tocome in and not only,
you know, replace or repair theroof, but, like, "Hey,
you know, you got a bunch of rot andsiding damage," or you need,
you know, these, these windows or doors or, youknow, maybe you wanna get, you know, a,
a, a new deck built, or maybe getting inside thehouse, doing some remodeling there. Like,
you know, I think that's, like, really where
there's, there, there's a huge advantage that we have over alot of the other people out there, is that,

(40:41):
you know, you can do more than just roofs withJobTred, you know. You, you can-
Agree.
... kind of go and custom build whatever budget andwhatever type job you need. You know, now,
I would, I also give the caveat of, you know,
make sure that, you know, if, if you're gonna take on a joboutside your core, you know, that, that-
You know. (laughs)
... you know what you're doing and that you're notgetting yourself into hot water,
you know, trying to get in and do somethingthat, you know, might be

(41:01):
out of your wheelhouse. You wanna make sure thatyou can do a great job with that,
and that you got the right people to,to, to bring in. But,
you know, I think it's, uh, it's apretty good way to,
to be able to kind of, you know, expandthose existing customers.
It's a good fit, and you guys are agood fit, for sure.
Yeah.
You know, o- one thing you, you know, you, you, you'vementioned here, you know, is, is about AI, and-
Mm-hmm.
... you know, obviously that is a, is a hugetopic and, and and a big,

(41:25):
you know, focus of a lot of people, both, you know, softwarecompanies looking at, "How do we implement it?"
You know, uh, c- constructionbusinesses, "How do we,
you know, how do we leverage it?" You know, wegot all the, you know, the, the,
the political landscape looking at,"How do we manage it?"
You know, I'm curious to hear,you know, to hear
your thoughts. And, and I know we've talkedabout it a little bit, and, um-
Yeah.
... what, what are your thoughtson, on AI, and,

(41:45):
you know, do you think that... You know, what, what doyou see the biggest benefits of it today,
and what do you think maybe we're, we're workingtowards but, but maybe not quite ready,
you know, to, to fully implement for?
Yeah. So funny that I'm the president of the RT3, and, and I ama person who, who leads with caution with AI.
Um, I, uh, it's necessary. It, it is, it ishere whether you want it or not,

(42:10):
so it's one of those things I feel like
I need to learn about and, and, andfocus on and, and
stay on top of, and it's, it's a movingfreight train in and of itself.
Um, I think the thing that scares me themost about it is regulation,
and, you know, every time I tell itto do something, it,
it's taking my information, which is great, andI'm getting something from it.

(42:30):
But like we mentioned earlier, that information is availableto anybody else who asks that question in that
way. And so, I worry about, you know, proprietarilykeeping my, my information safe.
Um, but, you know, like, uh, it was really profound for me, so Iwas on another panel that, um, for NRCA where
we had round table discussions and then we had a, then wehad a panel where we kind of wrapped that up.

(42:52):
And there was a guy in the roomwho was probably
early 30s who came from data management.
Never did a roof in his life, never worked in constructionbefore, but he opened a roofing company,
because he knew data, because he was ableto take AI and have the AI
program it in a manner that it actually answers their phonesand schedules their appointments for them.

(43:15):
So, you know, I, I think it's gonna be a beautiful way forus to have efficiencies within our company,
um, and, and some companies are gonna delve into, youknow, AI and tech and all those things and be
somebody that's very different from who
I wanna be as a contractor. Um, I know acontractor out of Florida that
used satellite imagery and someother things to target

(43:37):
and know when there were hail strikes on housesand was able to go by zip code
and walk and knock and say, "Hi, Eric. You know,I'm So-and-so from So-and-so, and
here's a picture of your house. Here's yourbid." You know, um, and, and,
but, but losing that personal touch to me.
Yeah.
And so, I, I think that, you know, um,
a- again, I, I think it's an important part to learnabout. I think it's not going away. Um,

(44:02):
but I think it needs to be looked at withcaution and, and understanding
and, um, and recognize that like anybusiness solution,
you have to know who you are and what you want from itand, and kinda, and kinda play from there.
Yeah. I, I, uh, I, I, I share your, your, yourcautious optimism about it.
Yeah.
You know, I think there's, you know, again, I, Iuse it every day in my life. I, I, I

(44:24):
think it's tremendously valuable and helpful,
you know, and, and especially, youknow, content writing,
you know, from kind of being able to just reallysolve any general problem or question
I have. I could either go spin mywheels or I could just,
you know, ask, uh, you know, ChatGPT orwhichever one, it'll
point me in the right direction. I mean,saves me tons and tons of time,
you know. But, you know, I, I think at the same time,you know, my, my biggest concerns are,

(44:46):
you know, where, where people becometoo dependent on it
and they put too much trust and faith in theaccuracy of every response.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and, and so, you know, we getasked all the time, "Well,
you know, is, is JobTred, you know, d- doyou guys use AI? Do you,
you know, d- have you implemented it? How are yougonna implement it?" And it's like,
you know, I, I've seen a lot of solutions out there, youknow, where, you know, you got AI, you know,

(45:07):
takeoff and, and AI estimating andthings like that. And,
and I think, you know, what, what, what I hear when people areusing that is they'll, they'll tell you that,
you know, it, it gets them maybe 75 to 80% of theway there, but every single time,
they have to go and check it and modifyit and make changes.
And, and I think, you know, my biggest fear would be, youknow, that if we implement this too soon

(45:30):
a- and we create this, like, you know,
dependency on it where, where nowcontractors who, again,
they don't have all the experience.They don't have,
you know, the, the, the years and decades of, of, ofbuilding and knowing all of those things
that, you know, that you can't seeon the surface.
You know, y- you pull that roof off,what's underneath?
You pull that wall, you know, open that wall up,like, what, what could be in there?

(45:50):
Yeah.
You know, my, my biggest fear would be, youknow, to, to give somebody a tool
and then have them go and enterinto a project where,
you know, they, they end up losing $50,000, $100,000 jobs'cause they sold a fixed price project,
and, and then they turn around and say, "Well, well,JobTred told me, you know, that was-"
Yeah.
... "the scope of work, and that's how Ineeded to price it." And,
you know, again, like, th- thatis the last thing
I ever want someone to be able todo is point the

(46:11):
finger at us and say, "Well, your AI was wrong." It'slike, "Well, yeah. No kidding." Like,
you know, you can't, like, uh, just, uh, I think a lotof people just want that easy button.
Yeah.
And, and I think that is gonna ultimately lead to alot of challenges in the near term
of making sure that it's accurate and that peoplearen't, you know, becoming too dependent
on it, you know. And, and then I think it's also, youknow, today, it's, it's very, very expensive,

(46:34):
you know, from, from like a, at least from a platformstandpoint for us to implement this.
You know, our goal is to keep JobTred asaffordable as possible.
You know, we've, we've had it at 199 bucks is, is ourbase price plus 20 bucks per user.
You know, we're going on three years now
of, of not increasing our price and wewant to keep it... I'm
a very big believer software shouldbe affordable for
all size businesses, and a solo owner operator shouldn't paythe same thing as a 50 or 100 person company.

(46:58):
You know, and so the last thing I want is,
is to add this, you know, this AI technology where asmall group of users can come in and just,
you know, hammer it an- and just jack
up, you know, the cost and, and, and, and the expensefor, for us to be able to provide it.
You know, so I think we're stillalso waiting for,
you know, the cost to come down a lot more,which I mean, like every quarter-
Which it will.
... it's like, you know, being-
Yeah.
... being halved. You know, so it's definitelymoving that direction. But,

(47:19):
you know, I think, uh, uh, again, it's, th-there's a ton of potential with it,
but I think we gotta keep kindawatching and, and making sure
that it's gonna ultimately deliver that,you know, that accurate,
you know, uh, information that you're gonna need to, to takeaction. And, and like you said, too, like,
people are, you know, we're, we're humans, right? Ithink that that human connection,

(47:40):
that, that, that personal relationship that gets built, Idon't think that's ever gonna go away. I think-
Mm-hmm.
... people are always gonna want to keep workingwith humans. They're gonna trust
people that they can shake their hand, look in theireyes, and, and give those commitments.
You know, we're, we're now, people calling in toour support and they're like,
uh, "Are, are you a bot? Is thisa real person?"
(laughs)
You know? I'm, I respond to people on Facebook, they'relike, "Is this really Eric or are you an

(48:02):
AI?" And it's like, "No, this is me. I, you know, I don'tknow how to prove it to you." But like,
you know, I, I think, like, there'ssomething to be said about,
you know, making sure that we keep the, the, the, thebrand and the personalities of the,
the companies, the people behind it.
You know, people buy from peoplethey like, they trust,
you know, that they, they, theywant to work with.
And so, you know, I think we just have to kindatake it all with a grain of salt

(48:23):
and really figure out where's the right way, you know,to, to, to implement it and leverage it.
You know, and, and where could it potentially have, youknow, shortcomings that could cost us?
I agree. I agree. I've, I kept thinking about the legalpart of it. I, I heard so many people at IRE
say, "Oh, I just had ChatGTP write that,
you know, that, um, section of my contract." And I'mthinking, "Are you crazy?" (laughs) Like, you know.

(48:45):
Yeah, they can give you the basics, but,
but again, it's like buying insurance, you know? You can...They'll sell you liability insurance, but
if you read the fine print, you can't do
more than three houses in any one developmentor you can't do condos and,
or you, you know, you have a legalconversation and it's like, yes,
they added this section for you, but it actuallycanceled out these other two sections. So

(49:07):
I think it's a tool. I, I think it's areally important tool. Um,
I think to your point, people wanna buy face-to-face,and there is a segment that doesn't.
And maybe you are a company that can do both of those ormaybe that you choose one or the other
and you, you know, and you really focus on those to be, to bewho you are. But I don't think it will ever
make up for not having a human involved to

(49:31):
make sure... I mean, e- ever, that's a long word, 'cause I,we've got a long way to go, but, but, you know-
Mm-hmm.
... I, I just feel like there's, there's, there's humanity andthere's some common sense and there's some-
Yeah.
... referencing in there that justdoesn't happen right now. And
you can't point the finger at AI and say, "They told me,"because as an owner of the company ultimately,
it doesn't matter if Eric Thornberg toldme this and I did it,

(49:54):
I'm the one that's responsiblebecause I chose and, and-
Yeah.
... you gotta, you gotta see yourbusiness that way.
Absolutely. Fu- funny story. So, in our, inour office, we're about to, uh,
to, to double our office space, but we,we, we've got almost, uh,
you know, right now we're kindof, like, at, at a
third of the floor and then another third of the floor.We, we had a first right of refusal on it,
uh, but someone right after we leased our space camein and it was an, an AI legal company.

(50:17):
Mm-hmm.
And they came in and they basically builtit all out, you know, just
awesome looking, you know, suite, allfully furnished, everything.
Well, apparently, uh, AI Legal wasn't a, uh, greatidea. They didn't get their funding.
It fell through, there were some lawsuits that cameout, spooked everyone, and they, they
essentially went under and had to turn thewhole space back, you know,
just give it right back to the building.

(50:38):
Wow.
So we were able to now come in and pickit up and now we've got
beautifully built out expansion space, fullyfurnished, you know, we're getting expanded.
Ping pong table. (laughs)
(laughs) But yeah, you know, I, I, uh, I think it'sso important and, and, and again,
I, I hate when I see that a, a contractor,
you know, just assumes that theywon't get into legal
trouble or it's not gonna happen to them and, and they don'thave an ironclad contract and they haven't,

(51:00):
you know, spent the time. You know, I mean, again, this is anominal drop in the bucket to hire a lawyer
to make sure that you have a greatcontract that is defensible
and that same lawyer who will show up for youand defend you when you need.
You know, because, like, that, that, that nominalexpense, that could be the difference
between surviving and going under.And it's just like-

(51:21):
100%.
... it is just, you know, y- you can't fly blind, you know,you need to have those protections in place.
And, and again, I, it, it's just such a sadstory to see. And, and again, like,
the contractor might not haveeven been wrong,
but their contract wasn't thereto protect them
and, you know, anyone in this day and age can comeand sue you for anything they wanna,
you know, make up under the sun and that's why, like,it's so important that you put those,

(51:43):
you know, those protections in place.
Yep. Yep, and you do it the rightway. For sure.
Yeah.
So, you know, I'm curious when,when you think
about the entire industry as a whole, you know,thinking about roofing businesses, like,
you know, what, what would you say, what do you thinkthe biggest challenges that they face,
you know, just
in, in today?

(52:03):
Well, y- six months ago I would've told you somedifferent stories but, you know, right now, um,
labor continues to be an issue for us, you know,as, as with any construction.
Um, you know, paying a fair wage, findingthat balance between paying a
fair wage and actually charging somethingthat people can afford.
Um, we were looking at a roof that weput on back in 2013

(52:25):
and it was about $325 a square, $350 a square and we'reclose to $700 a square now and it is just
increases in pricing. You know, COVID hit us and, and they hadall those price increases and everything and
nothing came back down, or verylittle came back down.
Yep.
Um,

(52:46):
I think that, um, I, I think thesetariffs are terrifying.
I think that, you know, steel is ahuge part of our world,
um, wood and plywood is a huge part of our world and, you know,watching during the t- early '20s when we had
our shutdowns and plywood went from $16a sheet to $65 a sheet.
Um, my fear is is that if you're one of those guys that isn'ta really good business person and you're not

(53:10):
watching what you're being chargedand what they're tell-
Yeah.
'Cause even the, even the distributioncompanies are making mistakes,
you know, where they're doing the, um,
yeah, your price is 25.25 or whatever
and, and you get your bill and they charge you40.25 and you're not paying attention
and they're paying that. Like, it's like, it'sgonna, it takes some extra,
extra business acumen to kinda stay on top of all that.And then again, we're bidding out...

(53:35):
We just got a price increase in our industry, 6%to 13%. What do I do with that?
Right? Is it 6%? Is it 13%? And it comes in30 days, so what I'm bidding
now and two weeks ago
is, means that that's the price that theinstall's gonna be and so, um,
you know, it, it, it is, it's a, it's a freight trainand... Sorry, our clock's going off. And, uh,

(53:59):
I, I feel like that's, uh, you know, that's,
that's the other side of it. The, the good part for me,for roofing, much like any construction, is
we are invaluable. We're not gonna go away.
We are, you know, we survived duringCOVID. We, we were
one of the states, Washington and I think Michigan,we're- one of the two states shut down
during that and, and they still found away to keep us going. And,

(54:22):
you know, um, people need houses,people need roofs.
It's not gonna change, um, but you really are gonna have toup your game in how you manage your company
because it, it's not easy anymoreand it's not fun.
No.
For sure.
No, I couldn't, couldn't agree more. I mean, I, you know,uh, the importance of knowing your numbers-
Yeah.
... managing your costs, doingthe job costing.

(54:43):
That is the only way that you are going to beable to catch these mistakes.
Yep.
You know, when, when I... And,and, and again, it,
this can happen at any time, not just now, butI mean, obviously there's a
lot more likelihood that these things could happennow, but when I first took over the,
the construction business I ran in 2018, you know, I found thatfor the previous six months we had been doing,
uh, jobs in this one market where, youknow, we were actually,

(55:03):
you know, losing 10% to 12% every single job wedid, you know, and I actually, I
sort of suspected there was, like,fraud or kickback or-
Yeah.
... something was happening, you know, and, and ultimatelywhen I dug into the data and the numbers,
I found that we were just m- you know, we, we hadnever updated our cost of the material.
And, and, and again, like, we went, you know, sixmonths of literally paying the customer

(55:24):
to put up their, their, their, their,their, their project and, like,
this is just, like, this is where it goes to show, like, whyyou have to manage your jobs in real time
and put systems and processes in place
to catch those issues early. You can't waittill the end of the project,
you know, to, to find out that you just, like,way underbid it. Like, you need to
know, you know, hopefully beforehand.
Yeah.

(55:44):
But if you find out in the project, Imean, this is where having,
you know, price escalation clauses in yourcontracts, you know, just ways-
Yep.
... to protect you that, like, you know, obviously ifit, if it was a mistake on your end
and you bid this project and you guaranteed thisprice, like, and you don't have a,
a way to go back and, and try to have achange order or, or,
you know, do something to recoup it,
you know, you may end up having to, to eatthat, but, like, you know,

(56:06):
don't keep making the same mistakes overand over and over again.
You gotta take action. You gotta go correct,
you know, your, your, your catalogs, your pricing, yournumbers, your, your, your formulas. Like,
whatever you need to do, you know, like,you have to be very, very,
you know, vigilant on every single job inthis, in this very, you know,
fluctuating economy right now. It's,it's so important,
you know, that people know that andthey watch that,

(56:28):
you know, and, and, and ultimately though, I mean, youknow, I, I think, you know, the, the
markets are cyclical. You know, obviously we're, we'regoing through a very turbulent time right now
but, you know, I think it, it's just like yousaid, it's, at the end of the day,
it's the businesses that have builta solid foundation,
you know, built on, you know, great teams,
you know, providing great customer service,
you know, answering their phones, beingthere for their customers,

(56:51):
you know, doing high-quality work. I mean,those are the businesses
that will be able to survive andweather the storm
and will be here for the next, you know, decades. And, and, andit's the people who, who are just, you know,
coming in, trying to just win every dealat all costs, have no idea
what their true numbers are, you know, those are the people ifyou buy from them, you're likely... You know,
next time you have an issue, you try to callthem back, they're gonna be gone.

(57:11):
They're gone. Yeah.
You know, it's, it's the reputable businesses thatare gonna weather the storm here.
Building trust. I think that's the key toeverything we're doing right now, is
we're t- we're even trying to build trustwith our manufacturers
so that when you do go back and you say, "Hey, this wasan issue," they, they help you fix it.
Building trust with our business partners, findingsolutions to help us with efficiencies and again,

(57:32):
when you have a cost systeminside of JobTred,
it helps us stay on top of those changes lo- 'cause we can,any of us can get in at any point and look.
It used to be an Excel spreadsheet.You know? (laughs)
Yeah.
I mean, and it's, we did a good job with it, but it wasvery cumbersome and it's not anymore. So-
Yeah.
... finding partners, earning trust
and then, and then continuing to understand whatthat looks like for your customers.

(57:53):
We're gonna be okay. It's, it's a,it's a beautiful
industry. Construction is a beautifulindustry to be a part of,
but it is changing and growing and, and, uh, I justwanna be an exciting part of that, not
looking at it as it goes over the mountainand leaves me behind. (laughs)
Yeah.Well, you know, I- I- I just, I reallyappreciate you, Wendy, and- and how you have,
you know, again, gone above andbeyond to take on,

(58:15):
you know, so many different roles, to be so active andinvolved in the community and- and essentially,
you know, you- you are a great role model to so many otherbusinesses that y- you probably don't even know-
Thank you.
... the impact that you have, youknow, by- by going,
you know, and spending so much time to helpand share others. I mean, th-
the- we- we need more peoplelike you out there
to help create these- these- these-this rising tide, as,

(58:38):
you know, as you mentioned earlier. It's oneof my favorite quotes too.
Yeah.
You know, but like, it- it's- it's just like,we- we need more people who
are willing to share, open up, you know, the-their books and say, "Hey,
you know, here are the challenges that we've had.Here's how we've overcome them. We've been
through these tough times. We've seen,
you know, the markets go up, the markets go down.Here's how we weather the storm."
You know, I think as- as a community, by coming together,by working together, by collaborating,

(59:02):
you know, forming strong partnerships with,
you know, the manufacturers, your vendors,your dealers, distributors,
you know, technology partners, like, this ishow we can, you know, together
make it through, you know? And- and- andultimately, like you said, I mean, literally
every single structure in the entire world,it has a roof. It has to have
a roof. It's not going anywhere. Construction is notgoing anywhere, and that is just a fact.

(59:23):
You know, and so, it- it's all about though,how do we, you know, together,
not let these tough times, you know, cause us to-to- to make mistakes, to cut corners,
you know, to ultimately, you know,deliver a subpar product.
You know, it's- it's about, you know, beingable to adapt, to change,
to put in the right systems, the right processes, anddo right by our customers, do right by,
you know, those in the community. And- and Ithink when you do that, you build

(59:46):
an everlasting business that will survive
any challenge that comes. It's- it's about,
you know, just- just continuing to,
you know, lead by example, lead, you know,
with- with- with the rightintentions, do right,
and, you know, I think you're just a- agreat testament to that.
Thank you, Eric.
So I very much appreciate, you know, everything that- thatyou've done for us to help us continue improving,
as well as just to- to inspire, motivate others out thereto, you know, to- to also lead by example.

(01:00:09):
Back at you, my friend. Back at you.Thank you. Appreciate that.
No problem. Thank you so much for- forcoming on, for sharing this.
You know, obviously anyone who- who
wants to connect with- with Wendy, she's veryinvolved in a lot of things.
Easy to find her. Um, but, you know, again, I- Iwould highly recommend you check out
the- the- the Roofing Technology Think Tank, you know,RT3. They have a ton of awesome resources

(01:00:30):
that can help you kinda go through some of these guides, learnhow to evaluate software, learn more about AI.
You know, there's- there's a lot ofgreat tools out there.
You know, also highly recommendthe- the National,
you know, Residential RoofingCommittee, the- the
NRCA. You got a lot of really, reallyvaluable resources to get involved.
You know, I'm sure Wendy would help- uh, lo-
love to help navigate, uh, you to getinvolved in- in either of those-

(01:00:50):
Anything I can do.
... those organizations, and all- all the otherorganizations you're invol- involved in. But,
you know, I just, I really appreciate you comingon and- and- and sharing today.
Thanks for the time, Eric. Appreciate you.
Absolutely. Have a good one.
Yeah, you too.
Thanks for joining us for this episodeof Builder Stories.
We hope you enjoyed the conversation,
and gained valuable insights that can help youin your journey along the way.

(01:01:11):
Don't forget to subscribe to the showand leave us a review.
And as always, if you or someone youknow has a story to share,
please contact us at builderstories.com.We'd love to hear from you.
I'm Eric Fortenberry, and remember, every builder hasa unique story. Keep building yours.