Culture, KPIs, and The Customer | Brian Gottlieb Renowned Business Leader, Speaker, & Author

Meet Brian Gottlieb, a renowned business leader, speaker, and author who built a home improvement empire from a plastic folding table and $3,000. In this episode, Brian shares his journey of growing a company to over 1,000 employees and achieving a successful exit, all while staying true to his mission of doing well and doing good. Learn how he built high-performing teams, scaled across multiple states, stayed connected to customers through every stage of growth, and created a purpose-driven culture that empowered people to thrive. Brian also offers practical insights on hiring, leadership, managing KPIs, expanding into new markets, and preparing a business for transition or sale.

 

 

In this episode, you will learn:

• How to build and scale high-performing teams
• When and how to hire the right people
• How to create a purpose-driven culture that fuels growth
• The importance of KPIs and financial transparency
• Smart strategies for expansion, customer, connection, and exit planning

 

Learn more about Brian Gottlieb here: https://briangottlieb.com/

 

 

Own a construction company and want to share your story? Apply to be on an upcoming episode of Builder Stories at https://www.builderstories.com

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
... welcome to the podcast where we take a deepdive into the stories behind construction business
leaders. We will share how they got started, howthey found success, and the lessons
learned along the way. I'm your host, EricFortenberry.
Welcome to Builder Stories.
Welcome back, everybody. Today, I am reallyexcited.

(00:21):
I have a very special guest for us. We have BryonGottlieb.
He is a prominent business leader, speaker,author, known for his expertise in building
high-performance teams and fostering a strongworkplace and great culture.
Uh, I think it was in 2009, he founded a homeimprovement business, started with just
3,000 bucks and, uh, apparently a folding, uh,plastic folding table, so I'll have to learn a little bit

(00:45):
more about that here in a minute. But, you know,over the next 12 years, he grew the company to over a thousand
employees, expanded across multiple states. Youknow, the company is recognized by Inc.
5000 as one of the fastest growing companies inAmerica.
You know, Bryon's also the author of Beh- B- uh,Beyond the Hammer: A Fresh Approach to Leadership,
Culture, and Building High-Performance Teams. Youknow, his book is awesome.

(01:06):
It is a, you know, really blends storytelling withactionable strategies, you know, to help leaders
cultivate and empower those cohesive teams.
So, you know, again, uh, really excited to haveyou on, uh, Builder Stories, Bryon.
Welcome, welcome to the show.
Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, and thanks forthat great intro.
Yeah, the plastic folding table, that, uh-
[laughs]
... it's legendary, right? [laughs]
Yeah. So, I mean, why don't, why don't you giveus, kinda give us the, the background.

(01:27):
I mean, ha- how'd you, how'd, maybe how'd youstart that first business? How'd you get into construction?
You know, what, what led to that and then, andthen beyond?
Yeah. Well, uh, look, I've, I've been working
with people at the kitchen table ever since, youknow, ever since I left high school.
I went from high school into selling pots and pansat the kitchen table.
But over time, I, I learned about homeimprovements, and both doing the work, swinging the hammer,

(01:49):
and also selling, I just love it. I just love it.You know, I, I, I love the interaction of, with people.
I also loved... As, as a young kid, I loved theidea that I could go out and knock on somebody's door and
walk out with, like, a check in my hand and getpaid that week. It was pretty cool. So I got to take...
You know, I was, I was able to control my owndestiny.
But, you know, i- in business, you know, thingstake you down crazy directions, and I, I

(02:10):
started a consulting business many, many, manyyears ago before my Tundraland business, and I was just so
tired of being on the road. So I wanted to startmy own company, and that's what I did. And when...
It was in 2009, in, in Wisconsin where there aremore cows than people, I decided that's a
great place for a home improvement company.
[laughs]
[laughs]
So yeah, it was a plastic folding table with$3,000 in cash, and, you know, I, I'll, I'll tell you what, I

(02:31):
stubbed my toe along the way a whole bunch oftimes, but also got really lucky.
And yeah, it, it, w- it... We built into a monsterbusiness, and I sold everything a couple years
ago. So it's been a fun ride.
Man, congrats. That's, uh, you know, it's, it'salways awesome to know that there-
Yeah
... was a successful exit. You know, you had, hada good, good transition personally for you, for the, for
the company and everything. So, you know, wha-wha- what would you say, though?

(02:52):
I mean, wha- wha- what were some of the hardestthings, you know, when you first started off that, like, you
didn't realize were gonna be those-
Yeah
... those, those things that you might trip on?
Yeah. So in the early days, and I think anybodythat, that has ever started a business or if you're, i- if you
own a business, you can relate to this, that, youknow, in the early days of having a business, e- the
only rule of business is just to stay in businessfor another day, right?

(03:14):
[laughs]
That's the only focus. How do we, how do we keepthe doors open, right?
Yeah.
You check your mailbox every, ever- every threehours to see if a check came.
But, you know, the other thing is that, is that inthe early days of a business, the, the success of the
business really comes down to how well the founderor the entrepreneur can execute.
How well they can work is what defines the successof the business.
But e- in that, in that space, really, thebusiness owner just has a job.

(03:37):
It's not really a business yet. To get to abusiness, you really have to start building teams.
And as you start adding people to your teams, uh,to your business, now all of a sudden the
business success is very much connected to howwell your teams perform and,
you know, both in your presence and when you'renot looking.
So how well team perf- how well teams performdictates the success.

(03:59):
In fact, I, I'll share with you that y- I had anepiphany many, many years ago
that the, the, the lid of the business wasdirectly connected to the lid of
the team. And if I wanted to grow a business, Ihad to first grow the people inside of it.
And, and I think that's one of the, one of the keylessons of leadership is, you know, how do we
build people, right? How do we not become a victimof circumstance?

(04:22):
And we can't find good help out there, or, youknow, th- there's been a labor shortage in this industry as
long as I can remember. And guess what? There'sgonna be a labor shortage this year and next year too.
But, but how do you not become a victim ofcircumstance? How do you become a builder of people?
And, you know, to me, that was an importantlesson.
Yeah. H- how did... You know, I, I see a lot ofpeople struggle with knowing, like, when to hire,

(04:43):
you know, and, and, and who to hire and kind of...You know, y- you feel like you're...
You know, as, as entrepreneurs, right, we'reputting on all the hats and we're, we're just grinding it out
and, you know, really, you know, burningourselves, uh, you know, out at times.
But, like, how do you decide who and when-
Yeah
... you can, you can make those moves?
Yeah. It's a great question, and,
and I think that there, there are two, there aretwo answers to this, right?

(05:03):
The first answer is that I think you certainlyhave to hire to your weaknesses as soon as possible.
Uh, uh, though n- they don't necessarily generaterevenue, especially if you're, like, a sales and
marketing kinda person. You need somebody in theoffice, and it's not a revenue generating position, e-
but you still need it so you can do more of yoursales and marketing.
But then I think immediately, you wanna replicateyour strengths as quickly as possible, because that's a

(05:25):
position that you can onboard really fast.
And if you can, if you can replicate yourstrengths, you can go even faster, you know? It's...
E- e- it, it's much easier to onboard yourstrength. It's very difficult for me to...
Like, when I had to hire a CFO, I, I'm not a CFO,so, uh, training that
person is very challenging, right? So I have toget a different level of expertise when I bring them in.

(05:45):
But I think the other part of it is that, thatit's about giving
your weaknesses, when you hire to your weaknesses,giving them a loud voice in your business and, and
hearing them, because they're going to bring avery different perspective to, to, to the challenges that
they might be seeing inside of the business, andwe have to listen to that very closely.
Yeah. I think that's- that's a great point.
One of our- our philosophies here is, "May thebest idea always win," you know?

(06:08):
Yeah.
And- and- and I always wanna encourage everybody,regardless, you know, who- who you are, how long you've
been here, what your role is like, you know, you-you wanna foster that, you know, environment where people
feel comfortable speaking up and- and- andchallenging the status quo.
It's like, you know, we- we brought you on becauseyou're an expert in something.
Like we, you know, we- we want you to- to come inand- and- and- and speak and share the, you know, kinda share
from your perspective. So I think that's- that'sgreat.

(06:29):
Ho- How would you say you go about, though,creating, you know, that- that- that culture?
Because, you know, when- when you do assemblehigh-performing teams and- and, you know, those A+ players,
like, you gotta make sure that you keep them.
Yeah.
So what strategies, you know, did you all employto- to- to do that?
Yeah, you certainly do. You have to... And- andyou have to take some risk along the way as well, right?
Because as you're building it, you have to takesome risk.

(06:49):
And I think one of the real decisions that acompany has to make is, how do decisions get
made inside of the business? Because decisions cancreate bottlenecks, and the owner can very easily
become a bottleneck.
[laughs]
I know for many years, I was the bottleneck in thebusiness where I needed to be involved in absolutely
everything, and it just wasn't sustainable.
You know, once I got to one, two, 300 employees,it just wasn't sustainable.

(07:11):
So- so
then if- if we're going to have people makedecisions in the business, are they going to make decisions
around based on policy or based on empowerment?
And it's two totally different approaches.
And, you know, the challenge with policies is avery slow process in making decisions, and I don't think
it's- it's a great customer journey either.
So if we're going to build a business wherecreating a high-performing team, we wanna

(07:34):
certainly empower them. And part of empowerment isknowing that not every decision
is going to be the right one that they make.
And it's okay to be wrong, just don't be wrong forlong.
And- and so we encourage, "Let's just go faster.Let's make decisions. And you know what?
If we miss a couple and make a couple of wrongones, don't worry about it.
We'll correct ourselves, but we're still gonna gofaster than our competition so we can really scale."

(07:56):
And I think that's, you know, giving peoplepermission, real permission to- to...
S- In a policy-driven business, you punishmistakes.
In an empowered business, you frown uponindecision, right?
In- inaction and indecision just isn't- isn'tacceptable, so you have to keep the ball
moving forward.
Yeah. No, I couldn't- couldn't agree more.

(08:17):
We- we- we also subscribe to the, you know, let'smove fast, break things, and clean up after ourselves.
That's right. [laughs]
But as long as you learn from your mistakes andyou don't keep making the same mistake-
Yeah
-over and over, I mean, you know, I think that'show you push, you know, the bounds and how you, you know, how
you continue to innovate, you know? So I- Icouldn't agree more.
I- I'm curious, so how do you decide when to...
You know, 'cause it- 'cause- 'cause when yourecruit this, you know, these- these really talented people,

(08:38):
you know, you- you don't always need, you know, atleast at- at our company, at JumpJet, like, we don't have
this, like, kinda middle management layer.
You know, at what point did you have to start kindof hiring people to manage versus be
individual contributors? 'Cause-
Yeah
... you know, I've seen a lot of times that, youknow, you- you take that individual contributor out of that
role, put him into a manager role, and, like,that's just not their jam.
They're not a good fit, and they're just like, "Iwanna get back to individual contributing as fast as

(09:02):
possible." Like, how do you kind of, you know-
Yeah
-navigate that? Because I find the more, you know,the more hierarchy you bring into place, sometimes it
kind of, you know, slows things down, if you will.
It- it certainly does. And the other risk to- toa- a thick org chart with a lot of layers in it, the
CEO, the owner of the business, gets further andfurther and further away from the customer.
And- and that can be a problem, right?
We have to really stay close to the customer, orwe can- we can be disrupted very easily.

(09:26):
We have to always know, how is that customerjourney doing?
But also, it's- it's not realistic to have 50people report- to be my
direct reports. I wouldn't properly serve any ofthem.
Yeah.
It- it- it is important to hire managers for theright reasons, right?
And- and I- I've made the mistake of, and I thinkmany companies have, I'm not alone in it,
putting somebody in a management role simplybecause they have the most experience.

(09:49):
And typically, a manager is- is hired out ofnecessity.
W- w- we might hire salespeople. We might ha- hiremarketers and- a- and- and installers and teach them like
crazy on how to be successful before they'reallowed to talk to a customer, right?
But we put managers in a role without any formaltraining whatsoever, and so we tend
to yield on the side of the most experience.

(10:11):
And to me, it's- it- what's most important, likean umbrella, and I've had to learn it the hard way 'cause
I've put managers in roles that weren't reallygood at talking to people, and that's probably not
the right decision. So, you know, first andforemost is they have to be passionate about
coaching and mentoring others. That's like anumbrella.
And- and in my book, you know, in Beyond TheHammer, I- I write about the 10 practices to top performing

(10:33):
managers for that reason, because we had to learna playbook.
We had to- we had to be as good at teaching, uh,salespeople how to sell as we
were teaching managers how to lead a team.
And understanding that it's not the idea that,well, you know, there's the difference between
leadership and management. It's not two differentpeople.
It's often the same person doing two differentthings.

(10:54):
Sometimes you have to put your management hat on,where you're- where you're focusing on the daily
KPIs and- and, you know, the weeds of thebusiness, and other times you have to put your
leadership hat on, where you're driving change,change in human behavior, change
in direction, change in belief, and all those sortof things. Those are leadership principles.
So- so

(11:15):
to become a great manager, a manager needs tolearn both, and that's what makes them successful.
Yeah, absolutely. We- we- we call those people theunicorns, right?
[laughs] They- they got multiple skillsets and areable to-
That's right
... you know, to- to- to do both sides of it.
You know, it's- it's- it's- it's so interesting,though, that you, you know, you kinda brought up the
notion of like the larger an organizationgrows......
the farther or more disconnected from, you know,the- the- the- the customer, the- the CEO or

(11:39):
the owner, you know, kind of those- those key leadpeople become.
And, you know, that- that- that- that thoughtreally resonates with me 'cause I get, you know, asked all the
time, like, how- how do I stay so involved withthe customers?
And, you know, I have, you know, chats and- andtext and calls and, you know, very inve-
in- involved in our Facebook group. And I think,like, those, like, you know, those- those interactions I
find to be just so valuable-

(12:00):
Yeah.
... you know, that- that I- that I- that I- that Idon't wanna let go of that.
You know, I'm curious, when- when you've, youknow, coached other, you know, businesses and- and
especially those ones that are kind of the smallerbusiness, you know, the owner-operator growing into,
building out a team and really starting to hitscale, getting into the millions and millions of sales.
Like, you know, what- what do you say and when doyou think is the right time, and- and how do they kinda

(12:20):
navigate that? Because a lot of times, it- it isthe owner's involvement that- that is that- that extra
touch. It's that secret, you know, sauce that theybring to the table where the- the- the- the customer
knows, you know, that at the end of the day, yougot the person who cares more than anybody else there to make
sure that they're taken care of. So- so how do younavigate that- that- that growing challenge?
Yeah, because it's- it's- it's not a scalablemodel if the business...

(12:42):
Like we were talking about, if the business owneris involved in e- everything.
Well, the first thing is, again, what is theculture of the organization, you know?
Does the business have a strong purpose?
Do they have a good mission statement and a visionstatement that's really droven...
That's woven deep into the fabric of the business?
Do the people have purpose and- and- anddirection, and they know what their part is in the- in the
bigger mission of the business and where it'sgoing?

(13:02):
And then recognizing that the- the managers arereally the custodians of the company's culture.
That's what they are. They- they- they do thehiring, they do the firing, they do the promoting, they do the
compensating, they do the training.
And how well they do those things or how theyapproach those things really affects how people inside of
the business think about being on that team orthink about the organization in

(13:23):
general. And how people think and feel about thebusiness affects whether they show up on
time, how hard they work, all those things thatdictate whether or not the organization
performs. So, I think there are a couple of thingsthat we want to think about if you're growing a business,
and how do you stay close to the customer?
I think one of the big risks that happens in many,many organizations is that if

(13:44):
you peek behind the curtain of a- of a meeting,whether it's a marketing meeting or a sales meeting, it's
very much a transactional conversation. It's,"What's our marketing costs running ad?
How many... What was our closing average?" Youknow, "What- what's our average order value?
What- what..." You know. It's... Or- or- orthey're talking about the upset customer, right?
The- the- the- the- the problematic customer andtrying to solve that. But rarely...

(14:06):
What often gets let-
m- missed is what about our happy customers?
You know, uh, w- how do we always talk about ourcustomer in every single meeting? W- I- I learned...
I read a book and I- I- I pulled it andimplemented it in my business.
It was the concept of that in every meeting, youkeep an empty chair.
And on that empty chair, you have a sign thatsays, "The customer." So, we always want to make sure that in

(14:27):
all of our meetings, we're talking about ourcustomer, because otherwise you can- can create a very
transactional type of business. And I think we allknow that relationships
matter. Relationships really matter when it comesto business.
So, how do you just keep that
f- front and- and center all the time? And I thinkthe other...
The last thing I'll leave y- uh, on that- on thatsubject is that

(14:49):
the moment I'm too busy to talk to my customers, Ibetter re-examine my
role. How about that?
[laughs] .
If I ... Really running a business.
Yeah. No, that's- that's- that's really greatfeedback. I love that idea, the- the empty chair.
Uh, you know, it's- it's so important that you,you know...
And- and I think a lot of organizations do tendto, you know, forget the customer, and that's- that's
why you're here in the first place. And so makingsure that their- their opinions and their, you know,

(15:12):
their- their frustrations, their challenges, thethings that are working and aren't working, like, all
of that should be taken into consideration whenyou're making every decision.
You know, so- so I really- I really love that.
And- and- and you talked too about, you know, theimportance of making sure that your team is fully bought in
to your mission, vision, core values. Like, Icouldn't agree more, like, I- I- I preach that as- as well.
It's the very first thing in- in our businessplaybook that we share with our customers.

(15:33):
Like, you know, it's- it's so important.
You know, and- and I think beyond that, like, whatyou see is- is- is- is like what you said, like, you know,
when your team is fully bought in and- and- andthey can, you know, really live out, you know,
what you would be doing as well and how you wouldtreat the customers, like, that is truly how you know
that you've built a great team, a team that youcan trust to handle the tough situations, handle, you know,

(15:54):
whatever comes their way. And like that- that'show you know you've built a great team, you know?
That's right.
So- so- so I think it's so true.
Yeah. And what's interesting is that when you havea meaningful mission, all right?
When you have a meaningful mission that activatespeople and a meaningful vision that people understand,
"This is what we aspire to become, this is how wewin, this is my role in getting there,
these are our core values," all those sorts ofthings, then you can start taking the KPIs of

(16:19):
a business, the key performance indicators thatmatter, and connecting them back to something in your
mission, as an example. You know, one of thethings we did is, uh, we created a program called Baths for the
Brave where, you know, in the shower...
We- we- we were doing 500, uh, bath remodelingprojects a month.
It was a big business, right? And when you- whenyou...
In the bath business, you- you go in a lot ofhomes and you see

(16:40):
y- y- y- there- there's some sadness to it becausethere are...
We- we've run across so many veterans in- inWisconsin and Arizona where you...
People that have served our country proudly, butnow they have a bathtub that is really
dangerous to step over and they're simply afraidto take a shower safely in their own home.
So, you know, we thought that was a shame and theycouldn't...
They didn't have the money to do anything aboutit, so we started surprising veterans with free safe

(17:03):
shower systems. And it grew into this really bigprogram that now happens in about 30
states every year, uh, around Veterans Day.
But what we were able to do is now then startconnecting our KPIs to that
mission. So, it's not a matter of we...
Yes, the lead is sacred,
but beyond that, every lead that gets left behindis a potential veteran

(17:27):
that we're not able to serve. So, it- it actuallybrings your KPIs to a higher
calling as well. And I think that's the realadvantage to having a true mission and vision.
It's not just abo- it's not like in this... It's-it's not on an island by itself.
It's truly woven into the business and everythingthat we do.
Yeah, I love that. Can- can you talk a little bitmore about, you know, so if- if you're a younger business and

(17:49):
you haven't yet identified your KPIs, like, youknow, I- I see people struggle to know, like-
Sure
... well, what are the key-
Yeah
... you know, the- the key metrics and the key-
Right
... things that are making the biggest impact? Howdo people go, you know, figure that out?
Yeah. And I'll- I'll share them with you rightnow.
And go- going back to one of the first questionsyou asked me about when do you start hiring people, I bet-
I bet 80% of companies out there, there's somerole that they need to hire for.

(18:11):
There's some role that they need to hire for, butthey're afraid to hire for that role because they don't
wanna take on the overhead. Now, that is a symptomof a much bigger problem,
because if we say, "What is the root cause of thatproblem?" the truth is they're not confident they can
hit their forecasted targets. So they, you know...
And so, if they don't know that they're going todo whatever revenue target or profitability target,

(18:33):
then they're afraid to make hiring decisions. And-and that's when a business gets stuck.
So you- you- you have to become great at hittingtargets. What targets?
Well, the KPIs. Now, I believe the most importantKPIs, f- first of all from a
marketing standpoint, is what are the number ofnet issued appointments we have to issue
every single month to our sales team, okay? Also,at what cost?

(18:55):
What is that cost per net issued appointment?
What does it cost me to get a sales rep to sit ata kitchen table and tell their
story? How much does it cost each time I do that?
And then also, what is my fully loaded marketingcost as it relates to installation volume and
sales volume? So those are the marketing KPIs.
And- and when you get great at forecasting thatand hitting those targets, well, now you can start spending

(19:17):
more money confidently because you know that youcan... That you're getting results.
On- on the sales KPIs, look, I think it's reallyimportant just to name a few is obviously
closing average, net-to-net closing average.
Every time I net issue an appointment, I come outwith this much of a net sale. This many net sales.
So, being able to forecast that, uh, forecastingwhat I call an NSLI, which stands for

(19:38):
net sale per lead issued. So, what is it... Whatis my...
What is my return on investment, uh, from amarketing spend?
And of course, sales volume is another number froma s- from a sales standpoint.
Production, I think you have to be great atforecasting, what's my material cost and what's my
labor cost? And, you know, from a financingstandpoint, what is it... What...

(19:59):
And- and by the way, also lead time. If I sell ittoday, what is my cycle time to complete it?
And, uh, I think in the financing KPIs are...
I- I hope customers are using financing as a toolfor selling at the kitchen table,
but there's a cost to that. And, you know, and isthat cost all over the place or are you able to...
We- we always planned on 4% of revenue wenttowards financing,

(20:22):
and so we could offer it to everybody. But when acompany gets really good at- at...
And- and Eric,
here's the thing. It is ugly, it is sloppy, it ismessy when you start
doing it. It is a mess. It was a mess for me. It'sa mess for everybody.
It's- it's, "I hit my sales numbers. I missed mymarketing numbers.
I killed it on my production, but now I have noleads, not enough salespeople." It's- it's a sloppy

(20:45):
process, but it can't live with just the owners.
We have to get the team to help with forecasting,and we have to teach the team
how to hit forecasted targets with a high level ofcertainty.
That's the essence of empowerment. It's making-giving them the ability.
The sales manager, he's in the business ofselling. That's his little business-insider the business.

(21:05):
The marketing department is in... That's...They're in the business of generating leads.
It's their business-within-a-business.
We as leaders have to teach them how to build abetter business by hitting their own
forecasted targets. It doesn't happen in a silo.It happens with a team.
No. No, I- I couldn't agree more. I, you know, if-if you ever come down to our office in Dallas, I mean, we got
dashboards and all of our metrics and KPIs.They're all over the walls everywhere for every team.

(21:28):
It's- it's so important. And just like you said,like, you gotta define them and then you gotta track them
and you gotta obsess over them. Like, you know, Itell people too, like, "Your first time, you know,
building out your annual budget and creating amodel, you're gonna make a whole lot of assumptions, and
they're all gonna be wrong, but that's okaybecause now once you gather data and as you
start hitting, you know, your numbers, you canstart looking back and saying, 'Oh, well, we missed this

(21:49):
one. It's because of this assumption. Well, whydid we get that wrong?
What- what was our underlying, you know, fallacythere and how do we improve?'" And it just helps you keep
growing and improving. So, you know, I'm totallywith you.
I mean, a- and I love the transparency, right?
Like, you gotta have your team bought into this,and that's how you're gonna move and grow
the fastest you possibly can. Like, I see so manyowners, they just, you know, they- they don't wanna share,

(22:11):
you know, "What are... What's our profit margin?Or what... How are we pricing?
Or what are our sales?" And it's like, man, like,you're- you're only hurting yourself.
Yeah.
If only you knew. [laughs]
Yeah, and look, the... And- and they use the P&Lto see how the business did.
A P&L is an autopsy, okay? That was last month.
That was like, you know, that was like a lifetimeago in home improvements. Last month was a long time ago.
And the P&L should- should really only confirmwhat you already know to be true.

(22:35):
It should be... It- it- it really just is aconfirmation document and not...
It shouldn't be the thing that told you how youreally did. Your KPIs will tell you how you're doing.
And the nice thing about home improvements and-and home services is you can take most targets and
you can boil them down to a daily target. How manynet issued appointments do I need today?
How many sales do I need today? How many... How w-w- how many...

(22:57):
What sort of installation revenue do I need today?
And by getting your managers to report on twonumbers every day, "This was my target.
This was my actual. This was my target.
This was my actual." The closer you can put thosenumbers next to each other, the better they're going to
get at hitting targets. And over time, once theybecome really good at hitting
targets, it's not like they're always gonna hittargets. Guess what?

(23:19):
They're still gonna miss targets, 'cause that'show business is. It's imperfect.
But then you as a leader get to ask them a fewquestions.
Th- to me, the three most important questions are,you know, "What are the reasons we missed target?
You know, what are we doing about it? And by whatdate will we be back on target?"
The reason we wanna ask that is because we empowerthe managers to formulate a- a

(23:40):
plan, a strategy, and a timeline in turning theirdepartment around to
get back on target. It's all about developingpeople and all about helping them be better
business leaders inside of your business.
What, what are your thoughts on tying theircompensation, you know, some sort of an incentive-based,
bonus-based-
Yeah
... commission-based to those, to those targets?
Y- yeah. It, it's f- it's extremely importantbecause that's the other thing about this industry.

(24:04):
You have so many opportunities to create variablecompensation structures, and it should be
certainly tied to their metrics. They should...
People should not have to wonder how theirperformance is being measured, or
how it... how their performance affects theircompensation. Right?
So when you can tie all these things together,it's, it's very, very effective.
Now, you have to be careful not to have what'scalled role conflict inside of a business.

(24:28):
I, I... Uh, like, as an example, I don't likebonusing.
Uh, I don't like s- paying sales managers based on
revenue on a month. Because the truth is theycan't control revenue on the month because
they don't control marketing and they don'tcontrol the lead flow.
They can control conversions. They can controlwhat the conversions are.
So I want to compensate them on conversions, uh,so I don't create role conflict and have the sales

(24:53):
manager mad at the marketing manager because theydidn't get enough appointments.
You control conversions. That's what you'll getcompensated on.
Marketing controls, you know, how many leads theycan issue and, and the conversions in, in the marketing
world. So tying compensation to that is...
It's, it's like throwing jet fuel on your businesswhen you do it right.
And-
Yeah
... and to your point, being transparent with yourfinancials I think is a game changer because you want...

(25:16):
It takes a team to build a profitable business. Soit's all good stuff.
Yeah, absolutely. I, I, I love that. I'm, I'mcurious.
What are your thoughts, though, aside fromcompensation, on how do you...
You know, like, what else can you do to, tomotivate and-
Yeah
... inspire people to want to show up every singleday?
Yeah. Well, we have to, we have to say toourselves if...
Look, uh, one of the, one of the pillars of mybook is the idea that leaders model their

(25:39):
business as a training organization. Right?
And I think people, I think people want more thanjust a paycheck.
They, they want to feel valued. They want to feelappreciated.
And I think they want a chance to grow within theorganization.
And when you model your business as a trainingorganization and you give people a chance to move up inside of
your business and create upward mobility, itbecomes a real...

(25:59):
It becomes a game changer for people, you know,positive work culture with, with opportunities to grow.
And a lot of it comes down to even org chartdesign.
You know, the, the, the classic org chart in homeimprovements is you have, like, one sales manager and then
50 salespeople, and it's just not as sustainable.Or maybe you add a couple more assistant sales managers.
We ran our business through, uh, squads.

(26:20):
So we'd split our business up into groups of four.And in the...
In each pod of four, there was a squad leader
and, and three salespeople or three marketers. Thesquad leaders were...
They were co-producers, so they were still doingthe work, running appointments or setting appointments
or, or, or installations. But they, they weredoing it because it was the next step up for an

(26:40):
exposure to leadership. So they got to learnabout... Maybe they'll do a book study.
Maybe they'll do Beyond the Hammer or whateverbook that is.
Or they'll, they'll, they'll, they'll coach theirteam or do little morning, uh, phone call huddles with
their team for, for... to motivate them. But by...
As you start to build bench strength inside ofyour business, then when you wanna take on a new product or

(27:00):
open up another location or anything like that,you have a whole team of people that, that are, that are,
that are hungry and eager to learn. And I thinkthat goes a long way for, for
retention as well.
Yeah, absolutely. It's... You know, our, ourcustomer success team has been one of the fastest-growing
teams that we've had. And it's like, "How doyou..." You know, right now, they all kinda report up to Travis,

(27:21):
who our Vice President of Customer Success is, andit just... It doesn't... You know, that's not scaling.
And so we're looking at creating kinda those,those teams within and then having, you know, the, the, the
veterans, the people who have been around thelongest, who have the best performance, like, letting them
start to lead a team, where they can do that, thatsame thing that you're talking about.
They're, they're still doing their day-to-day,but, you know, they also have that opportunity to get some
leadership experience coaching others, onboardingthem, bringing them up to speed.

(27:44):
You know, stepping in when, when they may needhelp. You know, so I, I, I totally agree.
It's a great, great thing.
A- and you can make it a lot of fun. So we had somany squads, it w-...
E- each squad leader would get compensated basedon how well their team performed.
It was no longer about individual performance.
It was now a compensation structure around theirteam performance.
So obviously, they wanna help their team win,right?
But then each squad had its own name and its ownlogo.

(28:07):
So I let them name the- their own squads, come upwith their own logos for them.
And the squads would compete with each other on amonthly basis.
So we'd have c- crazy, silly prizes, and it mightbe... It mi-... We had this one thing. It was a steak.
It was a T-bone steak on a trophy. And it said,you know, s- "Steak is for closers." And it was
bragging rights as a revolving trophy that thewinning team got the trophy on their desk for, for the

(28:28):
month. Anyway. But I think you can have funcompetition that's very healthy inside of the business, too,
when you do it right.
Yeah. No, uh, we, we... [laughs] That's exactlywhat we do. We got leaderboards for every team.
We, we even, like, got some little emojis that popup-
I love that
... when they hitting certain, uh, goals andthresholds and things.
But yeah-
That's incredible
... it's, it's a very motivating thing. You know,we actually have a, uh, a hammer, uh, that we had engraved.

(28:48):
It's got each team's name on. And so every month,at the beginning of the next month, you know, we, we
basically... The point leader, you know, gets,gets the hammer, gets the bragging rights, and they get to
have it. But, you know, I love the notion of maybeeven shifting it more to the team, you know, because as
we're growing larger and larger, well, you onlyhave one, one individual who can be kinda that, that
individual leader. But if we looked at it as ateam-based, you know, that could be really interesting.

(29:08):
Yeah. Now, what we did on the installation side,we did something really fun.
If y- i- are you a college football fan? Do youwatch college football at all?
Little bit.
I mean, me too. I'm not a big college footballfan.
But you notice that their, their helmets arecovered with stickers, right?
Yep.
And so we started adopting that concept with ourinstallers, where we would give out
little red stars that they could put on theirdriver's door of their vehicles.

(29:29):
And it, it was for quality. It was for safety. Itwas for productivity.
It was for doing something good for a customer. Itwas for a positive review.
So these installers would have their doors coveredin stars.
So, like, when the team is scheduling an install,they'd be, "Oh, you've got, you've got Corey coming out.
He's a, he's a 21-star installer. You're gonnalove him." And then they, they actually compete for

(29:49):
stars on their doors. They'd get a star and a, anda bag of beef jerky.
And it was just another really fun way of kinda,like, gamifying it.
But-
Yeah
... but then the installer is, is... Th- th- theamount of pride they have pulling up to somebody's home with
their door covered in stars. If, if they everwanna leave, they're, they're not just going to another
job for a dollar an hour more. They're walkingaway from, you know, their identity which is

(30:11):
connected to their vehicle and
a- as it should be. So it was... It's all very,very positive.
Yeah. No, I love that idea.Uh, I'm curious. Solike, I mean, you know, obviously, there's not...
Not everything is gonna be, you know, positive,happy, go-lucky, right?
Like h- how do you coach people in regards tomanaging, you know, the grapevine and, and when, you know,
the
unhealthy conflict comes about-
Yeah
... like, how do you kinda deal with thosesituations?

(30:33):
Yeah. Well, the first thing we have to understand
is that what we, what we tolerate, we actuallyattract more of.
If, if, if we tolerate a certain behavior insideof our business,
we're now saying that behavior is okay. It couldbe as little as...
It could be as simple as if you have Zoom meetingsand, and you, you...
Some of the people have their cameras off.

(30:53):
Well, if some of the people have their camerasoff, next thing you know, more people are gonna have their
cameras off because I guess that's okay to haveyour camera off.
Or if, if, if certain people are selling a jobbelow a certain
margin and it doesn't... And the job doesn't getbalanced, well, I guess we can sell more jobs below
that margin. And, uh, and ultimately, your cultureis shaped by your

(31:14):
lowest level of acceptable behavior. So what wetolerate, we attract more of.
And, and as a leader, you know, we just really...
If, if your culture means something, okay, if it'struly...
if it's truly your point of differentiation, and Ithink it's...
I think it's the most important point ofdifferentiation.
In fact, if you wanna copy our performance, youfirst have to copy our culture

(31:35):
and what goes on inside of our people's heads.That's where it lives.
So, so you have to protect that and you have to...
You, you have to have tough conversations a- alongthe way.
Y- just to add to that, one of the other pillarsin the book is the idea that...
It's the... It's the idea that leaders have to beaware of the echo of their voice, okay?

(31:56):
And what that means is that
often, the team is gonna determine what type ofday they're going to have based
on the type of day that the leader is having.
If the leader is coming across stressed out or, orangry, the team
is gonna be very, very worried and nervous, andkeeping their head below the desk.
And, and, and

(32:16):
we, as leaders, have to, have to set the stage onhow the team behaves. They...
We have to be very conscious of our echo. And it'snot even a matter of just being stressed out or, or angry.
It's even the echo of staying present with people.
Like, I mean, we're on this podcast right now, butimagine if I... So hold on a minute.
A- yeah, Eric, I got... I got a telephone call. Igotta take this really quick. Hold on a minute.

(32:37):
You'd be like, "Bryan, we're on a podcast.
What are we doing taking a telephone call rightnow?" So there are certain areas where you'd never pick up
your phone and interrupt a meeting, yet we do itall the time when we're having a
one-on-one with people, or we're sitting andhaving dinner with our wife, and all the...
You know, staying present. When I'm with Eric, I'mall in with Eric.
When I'm with George, I'm all in with George,'cause that also sends a very, very different echo

(33:01):
than the echo of distraction. So those are allways I think that we, we, we deal with challenges
when they come up.
Yeah. That's, that's great, great advice. Youknow, and I've certainly, uh...
I will admit that I'm one that needs to, to workon that.
My, my wife reminds me all the time, so
I definitely need to take that, uh... take thathome to the bank there and, uh, focus.
Yeah. Yeah, you and me both.
[laughs]
It's progress, not perfection, my friend.

(33:22):
[laughs]
Yeah. So, so I'm curious, ho- how do you...
How do you make the tough call, the decision whenyou need to remove someone from your
organization? Because I see time and time again,you know, th- And look, I, I think it's one of
the hardest things that a business leader has todo, is, is to let somebody go.
Because you know, you know, that is gonna maketheir life even harder.
It's gonna affect their family, their wellbeing.But like, I see so many people, they just keep...

(33:45):
They, they, they know it in their gut, but theykeep kicking the can down the road, and they're not making
that hard call. So h- h- how do you... how do youdecide that? How would you recommend people do that?
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm a big, big believer in, inperformance reviews for the
team on a regular basis, because I, I have to knowthat people, first of all, understand
how their performance is being measured

(34:07):
and they understand that that performance affectstheir compensation.
So that's like we talked about a little bit ago.I...
It's important that I have performance reviewswith my people so nobody's ever surprised if they
are going to be let go, because w- people...
Now, I, I do believe that
you get a fork in the road where it's either...it's either coach or let go.

(34:29):
And I, and I always try to coach first.
But if somebody's not hitting target, whether it'san installation target, or a marketing target, or a
sales target, it w- I think it's important to putsomebody on a... on an improvement plan.
And, and it should be short, measurable, andactionable.
Like, you know, um, okay, I'm going to give you 10more appointments.
And over these next 10 appointments, I need you todo A, B and C.

(34:51):
And, you know, call me after each appointment andwe're gonna see where you're at. And then if...
Either they're going to do it or they're not goingto do it.
And if they don't do it, then you have a decisionto make.
You put them on another shorter term performanceimprovement plan, or is it just time to
give them an opportunity to be successfulsomewhere else?
Yeah.
Sometimes it comes down to, you know, what...
how well do they align to the culture of yourbusiness, right?

(35:14):
Because
you, you can have a... you can have a highperformer that's a low culture fit, and that's not good
either. You know, we might wanna think we need toisolate them or the top performers.
But how do you build an aligned team when, whensome of your team is isolated, right?
Uh, or you have the, the high culture fit, lowperformer.
You know, this is the sales rep that everybodyloves, but they can't even close a car door, you know,

(35:38):
let alone a home improvement project. Or...
But I think the... you know, the bigger challengeis on the other side.
Typically, high culture fit, low performers willfollow performance improvement plans
very well. With high performers, low culture fits,the installer that
does great work, but "My gosh, please stop talkingto our customer.
Just please stop talking to our customer." Youknow, tho- those people you have to coach by how well they

(36:01):
align their behaviors to the mission, vision, andcore values of the business.
Hey, you're hitting your KPIs, but these are somethings you need to work on.
If, if in either of those cases, they're notwilling to take the action,
then, then you're, you're hurting your own cultureby keeping them.
So it's not a personal decision. It's, it'sultimately their decision whether, whether it

(36:23):
works or not.
Yeah. No, absolutely. Now what about...
You know, again, the- there's the- the- thesituation where, you know, let's say, you know, things are
going great. You know, we hired a team. Maybe we,we overhired.
You know, now we've got some sort of, you know,economic downturn.
You know, we got some sort of, you know, factoroutside of your own control-
Yeah
...outside of your team's control.
Yeah.
You know, h- how do you go about managing thatdownside risk-

(36:45):
Yeah
...and when you may need to downsize?
Yeah. Well, l- like even, like COVID as anexample, in the early days, like, the- the first thing is, I think
it's important that you... The- the reason youneed to know your numbers in the business is because you
should always be stress testing your P&L, right?What is your break-even if you need to get there, right?
Where do you start losing money as anorganization? What do... So how do you stress test the P&L?

(37:05):
But I also think, you know, how do you, how do youalso reassign people?
But sometimes you have to, sometimes you have tomake very, very, very difficult decisions.
And sometimes you have to... As difficult as itwas, we had to go through and,
and actually grade and, and rank our team, becausewe knew we had to, we
knew we had to reduce our force. And how do you dothat?

(37:26):
Well, you know, the- it's kinda this, like aforced ranking.
I'll also share with you that sometimes the answerisn't necessarily removing people from the
business. The, the... There's some value to, in
my opinion, you always want, like, moresalespeople than you have appointments.
And I'm gonna say that again. You want moresalespeople than you have appointments to run.

(37:48):
And the reason is because Eric, you and I can goon a road trip, and we can travel the country
next week, and we can go visit home improvementcompanies across the country, and we can look at any monthly
sales report as it is today, and then we canremove the bottom 30%
of performers from that sales report. And theirsales, their month will look totally different.
It'll look a whole lot better when you remove thebottom 30%.

(38:09):
This is the concept of what I call working abatting order.
So what you want to do is intentionally have morem- more sales reps than appointments
so you can always take out your bottom performersand bring them back in-house for training.
So y- if you... Your... Should always be trainingyour bottom performers but not having them be
trained at the kitchen table. You wanna train themin-house.

(38:30):
And, and I think the other piece of it is that
I- I- I think how do you insulate yourself from adownturn, right?
That's, I think, another important question.
And t- to me it all comes down to
your marketing mix. And if you're relying on,like, one marketing source, or
two marketing sources, or referrals as your numberone lead source, you know, it's not

(38:53):
really a scalable model. I believe that you shouldthink of your marketing mixed in two buckets.
You have your take it marketing, which is you do aTV ad, you do, you do a
Facebook ad, you do a g- Google ad, you...
And whoever, whatever lead comes to you, you take,and you hope to
get an appointment out of it. But then there'salso make it leads, right?
Where you go out and you make a lead every singleday.

(39:14):
You, you have a canvassing team, you have shows,fairs, festivals.
Every day you have somebody on your team that'sgoing out and making leads.
And the more you can make leads, the moreimpervious your business becomes to
an economic downturn because, because you're ableto make leads every single day.
And I think that's an important discipline in abusiness.

(39:34):
That's, that is such great advice right there.
You know, I see so many people that, you know,they- they- they like to kind of just sit back and say, "You
know, the- the ads aren't working. The leads aredrying up. They're not coming in.
They're not coming in." It's like, well, what areyou doing to be proactive-
Right
...to go out there and find 'em?
Yeah.
You know, bring 'em to the table. Make 'em, as- asyou described.
I mean, that's- that's- that's [laughs] soimportant that people, like, don't just sit back and-

(39:55):
Yeah
...you know, woe me, blame everything around them.
Like, no, you gotta take action and go find it andmake it happen.
So I sit on the, uh, Joint Center for HousingStudies at Harvard University.
I go to these- these
meetings twice a year. And they put out somethingcalled The Leahr Report, which is the leading indicator
of remodeling activity. You should google it. It'sa great r- report. Comes out every, every quarter.

(40:17):
And i- it essentially shows that 2025 is flat,okay?
Essentially flat. Um, plus or minus a, you know,half a percent one way or the other.
And the truth of that is that,
that there are gonna be companies that are gonnabe up 30%, and they're gonna be other companies that are
gonna be down 30%. Spending might be flat, but-but there are still gonna be companies that

(40:38):
know how to generate leads, and know how to close,and know how to get...
and know how to scale that are gonna do very, verywell.
And there are other companies that are gonnastruggle. And I think i- if you...
When- when we look at our business, we have tosay, "Are we..." You know, uh, fundamental
to this, to the industry, is the ability to makeleads.
And, and, and the more you can make, and thebetter you can treat them, and the better technology you have,

(41:01):
like JobTread, to u- you know, to- to- to make abetter customer experience, the better
business you're going to have as a result.
Yeah, absolutely. H- how would you advise peopleso when...
You know, o- oftentimes people struggle to know,"How much should I invest in marketing?" You
know, "Wha- what..." You know, "Do- do we- do wehire a bunch of marketing people?
Do we, do we hire a marketing agency?" Like, howdo you-

(41:22):
Yeah
...how do you sort of, uh, you know, recommendfrom a, from a financial investment-
Yeah
...budgeting standpoint?
Yeah.
What should they be doing?
Yeah. Well, I- I like the fact that you used theword investment and not expense, 'cause marketing is an
investment, right? When I, when I first started mybusiness...
And I should say, prior to me starting mybusiness, one of the things I got a chance to do is visit
companies across the country as a consultant, andI kept a journal.

(41:43):
And, and on one side of the journal was, "If Iever open up a business, I'm never doing this." And,
the... [laughs] "If I ever open up a business, I'mdefinitely doing this." So I had this nice little list
going. But I saw a lot of companies get in a badway in 2008 because they got over their
skis on marketing or, or, and, or they didn't havemoney to market with, and so
like the, the, you know, the- the leaves dried up,and they ended up, you know, not having a- a- a

(42:07):
great outcome from it. When I started my business,I- I set up a separate checking account
and I took 7% of every single check that Icollected from every
customer for any th- reason and stuck it in thatseparate account, and that was my marketing
money. This way I always had money to spend onmarketing....
now, th- at the time, 7% was a lot, right?

(42:28):
As the business grew, what happens is, th- I, Ithink as...
and you just have to get used to this if you'regrowing a business, that
in the beginning, you can generate a small amountof leads at a super low cost as
a percentage of revenue. The, the more you have totry to generate more leads,
you're digging deeper into the lead well, and thatcost starts to pick up a little bit,

(42:49):
right? Y- when, when, whe- if you're trying togenerate enough leads to keep a hundred sales reps
busy, you're probably not gonna do it at 2 or 3%.
It's probably gonna be closer to like a, a 15%marketing cost, which is kinda what we always
planned for. So, I think the important thing isto, to plan for it, but then also,
y- Eric, you and I can sit down, and we can modelout a business that's

(43:12):
profitable with a 5% marketing cost or a 25%marketing cost if we do
it right.
What kills a business is when you think it's gonnabe 5% and it turns into 25%, so
that's where
y- knowing your numbers, managing your numbers,making marketing decisions, taking some
risk,
knowing it's okay to be wrong but you're not gonnabe wrong for long, so, you know, getting off of a bad

(43:34):
marketing source quickly, but, but just managingthe data. But I think it is an important...
d- uh, it, it's very difficult to grow a businesswithout a marketing
budget. [laughs]
Yep. Abs- absolutely. You know, so I think, youknow, we've, we've talked a little bit about marketing,
talked some about sales. You know, let, let's...
we'll make the assumption that, you know, you,you, you priced the job right, you sold it right.

(43:55):
You know, when you look at the operations and theactual delivery, you know, what, what are the key, you
know, the, the, the, the key factors that you'relooking at to know, you know, did we hit our goals there, you
know, were we successful-
Yeah. Yeah
... you know, where did we struggle? How do you,you know, kinda monitor and manage all of that?
Yeah. So, uh, look, I, I've, I've been verysuccessful scaling my
business with simplicity in mind. You know, how doyou constantly remove complexity from

(44:19):
the organization? Because the more, the morecomplicated the projects are that we sell, the, the, the, the
more chances for mistakes that can happen.
The longer we're in somebody's home, the morechances for mistakes to happen.
So, I like a much simpler business when it comesto, like, a one-day bath business or a one-day
window business. But, but, look, I also had asunroom division, which is a little more, more complexity to

(44:40):
it. So then, how do you ensure... first of all,customer delight matters, and it's
about... it's not about exceeding customerexpectations, because you really can't measure that; it's
about how do we meet expectations withconsistency, right?
How do we, how do we deliver with consistency toour customer?
And, look, I think a lot of it comes down to howwell we're training people and what our training model looks

(45:02):
like and, and how do we inspect that process.
I, I can share with you, at, at sc- when we werescaling our business, eh, one of the, one of the complaints we
would get from our customers is that we were badcommunicators. Eh, they're terrible communicators.
And I would put people at it, I'd put scripts atit, I'd put call cadences at it, and we
still kept getting that complaint that we weren'tgood communicators. And we started looking at it.

(45:24):
We're like, "Well, it's because we have so manynew customers every single day.
Everybody's got a different idea of what goodcommunication looks like." So creating a
cadence might be good for us, but it might not begood for them.
And we realized that what they really wanted wasthey wanted their installation date.
When is the project getting installed? So we said,"Okay, how do we...
the best way to improve communication is nothaving to talk to our customers as much,

(45:47):
scheduling the job, giving them an exactinstallation date at point of sale." 'Cause
if we can do that, we really solve a lot of otherthings, and that's what we built the business model around,
that every customer, when we're sitting at thekitchen table and they buy, that they get their
exact installation date. And that's what really,really helped.
And then, of course, measuring the fact that youcan deliver to that too.

(46:08):
And, and, and, and what are the KPIs? You know,what are you measuring, right?
Are you measuring reviews? Are you...
you know, are you measuring labor cost andmaterial cost, and, and what are you doing when it's outta whack
about it, too?
Yeah. I love that. That's, it's, it's one of myfavorite, uh, you know, features of JobTread, is the ability
to, to see all of your jobs, you know, on oneview, kinda when they...
you know, when are they projected to start, tofinish, and that helps you to better kind of estimate when

(46:32):
you'll be able to start that customer's job.
But then once you tell them, I tell people, "Yougotta go set that baseline, and then anytime something
diverges and you gotta shift things out, like, youcan see exactly where you got off track, so that
hopefully you can take that into account, andequip, you know...
if you need more lead time, if you need, you know,take, take other factors into, in- into account, it helps
you to get better and better at giving those,those dates and then holding yourself to it, you know?

(46:54):
Ye-
So, t- totally agree though.
Yeah, and as, as, as you grow a business, right,then, then what is the role of the leader in all this?
You... y- l- a leader deals with the oddities ofbusiness, right?
The business runs, the managers run theday-to-day, and, and they drive the results, the, the, the leaders
deal with the oddities. And, and it's importantto...
eh, because if we wanna be great at hittingforecasted targets and hitting installation windows and dates

(47:17):
and all those sort of things, you really have tosay, "Okay, if I thought it was going to be five days to do this
job, and it didn't take five days, why?" You know,let's really look at it.
Let's not accept that it took six. Let's say, "W-what did we learn from this?
What, what could we have done differently?" Wherei- and this is very, very important, it's about
separating people from process. Because if I sayto the production manager, "How come this

(47:41):
job took six days and not five," you know, he'slikely to say, "Well, it was George's fault, and George
didn't show up, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
It's somebody's fault," and they point the fingersat others, where, in fact, if you wanna get to the truth,
you have to remove people from process. And it...
e- really, the conversation should be, "Look,
w- I... we know we have the right people.
Where is our process broken inside of theorganization or not adhered to in the business,

(48:03):
y- where has our system broken down, where, wherethis job took six days instead of five?
W- whe- where did we break in the model?"
Yeah.
And, and, you know, it's an important process togo through.
That's awesome. H- how often would you recommenda......
you know, people do, you know, job performancereviews.
Like, you know, are, are you sitting down at theend of every job? Are you doing it weekly? Monthly?
Yeah.
I mean, obviously, it probably varies based on thebusiness and the type of work.

(48:25):
But, you know, just a little bit, a little bit ofthe, uh, importance of that.
Yeah. I, I, I think a sales rep needs aperformance review much more often, every,
every 90 days, but they need a coaching sessionalmost daily.
[laughs] So, so I think, you know, sales, sales isa different thing.
Or they, they certainly need a lot of one-on-onetime.
I think production people, I think every sixmonths is a good idea.

(48:46):
But I also like to alternate a performance reviewwhere... And it's not, like, a bad thing.
It's a positive thing. It's, it's, you know,trying to understand where they wanna go in the business and
how are they performing against the KPIs and howare they aligning to the mission and vision.
And, you know, but, but then you alternate everysix months with performance review and what's
called a stay survey. Instead of just waiting foran exit survey when somebody quits and goes

(49:09):
on their way, a stay survey, asking your team, uh,uh, a few
questions
once a year. Number one, what is it that makes youwanna come to work every day?
Number two, what would one day make you wannaleave?
Number three is, what is one thing the company isdoing wrong today that we should fix?
And number four is, what is something you're notgetting from your manager that you really need?

(49:33):
So I think it... That... You know, we might thinkwe have a certain type of culture in our business, but we
don't know until we inspect our culture, and weinspect it through a stay survey.
So I think that also helps. So I think performancereviews and stay surveys are, are, are good tools to keep
the...
So everybody's on the same page.
Yeah. No, I love that. That's, uh... I, I'd neveractually heard of that, and it sounds like a great, uh,

(49:56):
gr- great idea.
A- and, you know, if I can add one more piece tothis.
And I know that you're a big believer indocumented processes and systems, right?
Yeah.
And this is important inside of a business. And ifyou think, where, where do they come from?
If you, if you lay out the entire journey of yourcustomer, from this is when we generate a lead
to this is where the job is done and paid, and youthink about all the different interactions that happened

(50:17):
between either somebody on your team and thecustomer, or somebody on your team
and another department in your team,
anytime there's an interaction between humanbeings, there's an opportunity for friction, right?
There's an opportunity for friction. And that'swhere you start with your documentation.
What do you want that interaction to be like?Because it reduces friction points.

(50:38):
If, if, if you're thinking about you need to do abetter job documenting processes and you don't know where
to start, start at your friction points, andyou'll, you'll be better off because of it.
Yeah. No, that's great advice.
I'm curious, and, and I'd be, I'd be remiss not toask, uh, just with, with the success that you've had.
I mean, you know, I, I, I, I see a lot of timespeople feel like they've, you know, they, they've really...

(50:58):
They're dominating their, their own local market.
They've had a lot of success there, and thenthey're trying to make the decision, "Do I, you know, do I expand
into a new market?" I mean, you, you went intomultiple new states.
Like, how, how did you kind of weigh that decisionwhen you first decided to enter multiple
markets, and what did that, what did that looklike?
Yeah. Uh, w- you... W- we would all be surprisedon how little of a market share we

(51:20):
have, even when we have a big business, by theway.
But, but I, I like to look at other markets, uh,
uh, through a few different lenses. Number one,you know, the...
Is my lead cost getting so high in my existingmarket that I've maxed out on all my marketing
sources and it's time to do something else?
Do I have so much bench strength in my businessfrom being a training organization that I have to give these

(51:41):
people another opportunity or they're gonna gosomewhere else, so it's a good time to open up a market?
Do I have a high level of confidence that I canreplicate my culture, because you have to replicate
culture? Do I have a super high level ofconfidence that I can hit my forecasted
targets with a high level of certainty?
So those are essentially the four, the fourquestions that I ask myself before we do something

(52:02):
like that. And, and I... I... And the fifth thingis, can, can it be a focus and not a distraction?
You know, can I put a team in place? Can I assignthe resources?
Can I have somebody have P&L responsibility tothat market or to that product line?
And if I can do all these things, then you knowwhat? Why wouldn't I do it?
So, so those are some of the questions that I askmyself and ask the team

(52:23):
to make sure we're ready for it. But, but it alldoes come...
It makes it a lot easier when you have benchstrength to do those sort of things.
Yeah, absolutely. W- were there ever... Was thereever a time where you entered a market and it just...
It didn't work out for you, and, and, and what wasthat reason?
Yep. Uh, yep. I, I... The very first time I triedto replicate was I thought it would be a good
idea to... There, there was a... I was in thesunroom business and there was this, uh, information out

(52:46):
there that there was a lot of leads in Cleveland.
So I thought, "I'm gonna open up a sunroombusiness in Cleveland." I did it totally wrong, okay?
I didn't know anybody in Cleveland. I, I... So, I,I... It was...
It takes two flights from Appleton to get toCleveland. It's a nightmare drive to get to Cleveland.
We didn't know the market. We just failed. We f-I... We didn't have our processes documented.
We, we weren't able to hit our targets, even onour local business.

(53:09):
We, we got over our skis way too early.
But, but I learned so much from that, that Ilearned how to do it right.
And then, you know, w- by doing it right... So Iopened up...
I o- My TundraLand business, I replicated in fouror five locations in Wisconsin.
Opened up my bath business, replicated thebusiness again in Arizona as Jacuzzi Bath
Remodel. Then I opened up a couple of Renewal byAndersen window locations.

(53:33):
So, you know, all in all, the three companies weredoing 150 million in revenue.
So, you know, we, you know, we, we got it right,but we certainly stubbed our toe first
really hard. [laughs]
Sure. H- how did you choose those markets?
I, I, I... Again, I looked to see, is it... Is astrategic reason. Like, we're already going out there.
We're kind of servicing it. Or is it maybe amarket...

(53:53):
Like, in Arizona at the time, it, it was an agingpopulation.
It was asleep at the wheel when it opened up outhere, and I thought, "There's nobody really competitive out
here. Why wouldn't I do this?" And, and I had ateam. Who wants to...
Who doesn't wanna move from Wisconsin to Arizona?
You know, I had a team of people that were hungryto grow and willing to relocate.
So I actually re- relocated a team out here and wejust hit the ground running, and I was able to

(54:17):
identify, uh, a, a couple lead sources. Uh, just aquick story.
I, I walked through the m- If you walk through themall in Wisconsin, you'll see it's full of home
improvement companies, you know, all trying to setappointments and such.
I walked through a mall in Arizona, and I'm like,"There's nobody...
Th- there's no h- There's no home improvementcompany in Arizona." So I thought...
And so I walked through another mall and I saw thesame thing....

(54:37):
and I realized that I can open up a homeimprovement company out of the mall just by [laughs] setting up a
kiosk in a mall, and that's what I did.
I opened up two malls, set a- set kiosks in themalls, and right away, we were doing between
five and $600,000 a month in revenue just off ofthese kiosks in
malls that we had somebody there settingappointments.
So I think if you can see a marketing opportunityand r- easy way in, and the market makes sense, and

(55:01):
it's builder-friendly, and you have a team thatcan relocate, and you can hit your targets, you know what?
Go for it, man. Go for it. It's okay to be wrong.Just don't be wrong for long.
Yeah. No, that's great, great, great advice.
So I'm, I'm curious, you know, a lot of, a lot ofbusinesses, they, you know, they, they do reach the point
where they're, they're trying to think aboutwhat's, what's next.
Yeah.
You know, what, uh, uh, am I gonna sell thebusiness? Am I gonna hand it down?

(55:25):
Am I gonna, you know, w- w- shut it down?
Kinda what, what is your thoughts-
Yeah
... and, and how do you prepare people for-
Yeah
... you know, that, that next transition?
Yeah. So I, you know, I sold two of my threebusinesses to different private equity groups, and then I
sold my Renewal by Andersen business to myexecutive leadership team, so I've been through both sides of
it. And I actually work with a team where we helpcompanies plan for that and

(55:46):
get their business p- positioned to sell or for anexit or transition, whether it's to family or,
or to a family office or to private equity.
And, look, I think, I think if you, if you go intoit, that,
first of all, understanding if you are looking tomaybe exit, what, what do buyers look for, right?
Buyers look for... Because we... There's noguarantee of revenue tomorrow

(56:08):
in this industry. They're... So they're not,they're not buying yesterday's revenue and yesterday's
customer list and all that kinda stuff. Whatthey're buying is they're buying the team.
They're buying the systems. They're buying theprocesses.
They're buying the belief that you can hit yourtargets. They're buying the future.
And so, uh, one... So you, you have to make surethat your business is good at that.
And this is true whether you wanna sell it to yourfamily or, you know, to pass it down to your kids.

(56:32):
I think if you go into it with the idea that, "Howdo I ensure that my business is...
can run without me?" Right? That, that is, is, isa real business and not just a job,
and that things are documented and that there's agood culture in place, then whether or not you sell your
business, you've got an amazing business and goodfor you. And, and so I think, I, I think there's that.
I think position your business to sell even if youdon't want to.

(56:55):
Yeah. I love it. That's, uh, that's, that's great.
You know, earlier, you, you talked about, youknow, you, you kept a journal about your, your, your
things what... If you were to ever start anotherbusiness, things you would definitely do and things you
definitely would not do. Um, I'm curious if youcould share some of those, uh, those definite, uh, would
do and would not dos.
Yeah. Well, uh, uh, th- the would not dos is I sawa lot of businesses when they got in

(57:17):
trouble, they had companies that were n- hadpeople that were not on variable compensation
structures. So they had these massive, massivesalaries, that when things dried up, there was just
killing them financially. So I made a decisionearly on,
definitely have to put people on variable compstructures.
So they give them a bigger upside, but also as thebusiness is going up and down, so does people's
compensation, 'cause it's just... it's, it'simportant to business.

(57:40):
I saw, uh, I saw, I saw shrines. I saw
companies that had multiple locations.
Then when they shut down those locations, theyrented like this big warehouse to keep all the stuff
in there that they're never gonna use again. Andit was sucking up their overhead, and it was really...
it was actually very sad. You know, I saw a lotof, I saw a lot of, uh,
marketing that wasn't face-to-face, so that if thephone stopped ringing, they didn't have a way

(58:04):
to make a lead. And, you know, these were...the...
when, when I talk about the ability to make alead, that's where it came from, that we can't be held
hostage to, to an economic downturn.
We have to be able to make leads every single day.
When our competitor isn't making leads, it's okay.We're gonna go make a lead.
If I got knuckles, I'm gonna have a business. So Ithink those are some of the fundamentals that I picked up.

(58:26):
And then also, I, I found a lot of owners did notknow their numbers.
They did not understand
their financials. They didn't understand how toinfluence them.
So, you know, I think all those things are reallyimportant in business.
And what were the, uh... what w-... So, I mean,I...
You know, I guess the, the opposite of all thatwould be the things that you would do. I mean, is there...
you know, beyond kind of, you know, knowing yournumbers-

(58:46):
Yeah
... making sure you set up the comp, I mean, anyother glaring things that like-
Yeah
... "Man, if I were to start a new constructionbusiness today, I would definitely do this"?
Yeah. Well,
the idea that
when a lot of people lost their job in 2008,
I wanted to build a b- different type of business.
I wanted to build a pe- a business where therewere so many great people out there now looking for a job.

(59:07):
I wanted to create a business where people canhave more than just a job, more
than just a career path, where they could look attheir time in my organization,
even if they've moved on, and say, "I'm betterbecause of that. That was a pivot point in my life.
That's the story I'm always going to tell." And ifI can create that, if I can create that type of

(59:28):
culture, if I can create that type of meaning andpurpose and, and, and really be
woven into the communities that we serve, thecommunities will help us be successful.
You know, our mission statement was to do well anddo good.
And we define it that the purpose of business isto make a decent profit
decently. And, and what does it mean to be decentas a business?

(59:51):
And if we can make the customers co-producers inour journey and get them to, to ha- to, to
help us do well so we can do good in ourcommunities, it's gonna be a very
different organization. So that to me was reallyat the, at the top of everything,
the fundamental change that really deliveredsuccess.
I love it. It's, uh... Could- couldn't agreemore.You know, so as we wrap up here, Bryan,

(01:00:14):
I'm- I'm curious. Can you- can you just kinda givea little, you know, a little synopsis, a little plug for
your book, Beyond the Hammer? And then, also, uh,Birdie told me you might have another one
coming out. Maybe we can get a little sneak peekabout what that might be about.
[laughs] Love a birdie. Yeah, so Beyond the Hammeris designed for managers and leaders alike.
It's- it's in print, but it's also on audio. It'sa fantastic audiobook. I highly recommend it.

(01:00:37):
But it's very approachable. It's full ofactionable items that you can plug into your business.
The reviews have been terrific. We hit multiplebestseller lists on Amazon, plus on Barnes &
Noble. It's also in Hudson Airports,
in the Hudson Airports across the country. But youcan certainly get it on Amazon.
You should get it today. It's a great book. Ipromise you, you'll love it.

(01:00:57):
And yes, we have a new book coming out. It's gonnabe a sales-driven book.
I'm working with Erica Amossi on it. It's gonna bea terrific, terrific book.
Yeah, it's gonna be fun, so...
Awesome. Well, Bryan, look, I really appreciateyou coming on, sharing all of this insight.
I mean, your- your experience, your knowledge,your wisdom is- is very apparent.
You know, just the leadership, you know, thephilosophies that you have developed, and really have been

(01:01:20):
able to document and articulate so that you canshare with others is so helpful.
You know, I just- I really appreciate what you dofor the community, and I see you.
I mean, you're a servant leader, you're givingback all the time, trying to help others, you know, be able to
have that same level of success that you have. Sowith much- much due respect for that.
Well, and thank you too, for the positive impactyou and your team make in this industry.

(01:01:43):
You know, it's such a... You have such a greattool, you know, for your customers. Such a great tool.
But also, your events and all those sort ofthings. I mean, you just really... You're doing it the right way.
You're making a decent profit decently, and it'sso cool to see, you know? So congratulations, so...
And thank you.
Absolutely. I appreciate it, and uh, you know,hopefully, uh, we can- we can get you out to one of our Job
Tread Connects. You know, we do that annual eventevery January, where we just bring together...

(01:02:07):
You know, I think we had- we had to stop sellingtickets at 1,000 attendees last year.
But we figured out a way. I think we can grow itagain this year. But uh, yeah. Look, I just...
Thank you so much, Bryan, for coming on, forspending this time.
Appreciate your time.
And for sharing all of this. All right, have agood one.
See you, bye.
Thanks for joining us for this episode of BuilderStories.
We hope you enjoyed the conversation and gainedvaluable insights that can help you in your

(01:02:30):
journey along the way.
Don't forget to subscribe to the show and leave usa review.
And as always, if you or someone you know has astory to share, please contact
us at builderstories.com. We'd love to hear fromyou.
I'm Eric Fortenberry, and remember, every builderhas a unique story.
Keep building yours.