October 15, 2025 • 49 mins
Fifteen years ago, Fares Elsabbagh launched Canadian General Contractors with only $50,000 and a background in digital marketing. Today, he leads a group of construction companies generating over $30 million in annual revenue.
In this conversation, Fares shares how he turned early chaos into a scalable, system-driven business. He discusses what he learned after dealing with theft during rapid expansion, how he created systems to improve client satisfaction, and the five key things homeowners care about most during a renovation. Fares also shares the key things looks for when acquiring other design-build companies.
In this episode, you will learn:
- How Fares achieved operational excellence after rapid growth
- What decisions Fares would have made differently if he had a do-over
- Fares’ views working on the business rather than in the business
- The type of construction companies he wants to acquire next
Listen to the episode to learn more.
Resources:
Learn more about Canadian General Contractors here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:17):
How's it going everybody?
Welcome back.
I'm real excited.
I've got a great guest here.
We have Ferris Elba fromCanadian General Contractors.
They're located all over Canada,I think, what, three or four
profit and something like that.
Uh, really excited tohave you on the show.
Welcome to Builder Stories.
Awesome.
Yeah, thanks for having me, Eric.
Bonus points for getting my name right.
Hey, well, you did gimme a littlecoaching earlier, but, uh, hey, so,
(00:40):
so look, Ferris, why don't you give usa little bit of background, kind of,
you, you've got a very unique storywhere you've been involved in a lot
of different construction companies.
You, you've really built and grown yours.
So why don't you kind of giveus, give us the background and
how'd you get into construction?
What led you to, to startup a construction company?
Yeah, that, that's,that's a great question.
I, I always wonder myself too.
(01:01):
So I, I, I got in construction, um, 15years ago, roughly in, around 2010, 2011.
And, um, I, I did get intothe industry from a unique
standpoint in the sense that.
I didn't get in by lifting a hammer.
You know, the, the traditional senseof kind of like working your way from,
(01:22):
from, you know, the, the guy that'skind of sweeping the floors all the
way to, um, the guy running the cruise.
That, that really wasn't my, um,traditional route that I took.
Um, really, really early on, Iremember graduating university,
um, a group of friends and I,including my brother, we were, um.
Really interested in, you know, thetech startup scene and we took a liking
(01:45):
for, uh, Tim Ferris and the four Hourwork week, which was just this whole
new world of like looking at businessand looking at kind of like, you know,
what your work schedule would look likeand we're really fascinated with how he
was able to kind of like leverage, um.
The, the internet and globalizationand, and, and all these little
(02:08):
factors to kind of build a business.
So we, we ended up starting off with,um, digital marketing, like really
trying to learn about digital marketing.
'cause you know, that's really what,what Tim Ferriss was, was able to
kind of get across to us in hisbook amongst many other things.
And we thought about.
What, what would be the big, one of thebiggest industries where we could apply
(02:30):
digital marketing to and, um, and see,and see what that can kind of look like.
Right.
So, so we dabbled a little bit with somedigital marketing and, and renovations.
And then, and I remember like 15 yearsago when we got our first lead, it's
like, whoa, like this, like this works.
Like, you know, we could do afew things online here, create a
website, maybe a little bit of.
(02:51):
Um, uh, so, uh, search enginemarketing, if you will, like Google
or whatever and, and make the phonesring or, or, or get people interested
in potentially working with us.
And, and, and I, I rememberbeing, um, in Greece.
When my brother, uh, was reallyworking on, um, the SEO side, so the
(03:11):
traditional, creating some backlinks,sending some, um, you know, backlinks
to a website, and then he would end upranking, uh, our website, number one
before we really built the business.
I remember being in Greece and typing,um, you know, Ottawa contractors.
So, so one of our companies calledOttawa General Contractors, and I
was like, blown away that we werelike the first result when I was
(03:34):
in Greece for Ottawa contractors.
And you know, it sounds so silly heretoday, but I was just like, wow, like
we're probably really onto something.
So we, we really, uh, startedoff with digital marketing and,
and we were salespeople as welltoo, and we really learned how to
drum up a whole lot of business.
Uh, but then we quickly really learnedthat there's a lot more to business
(03:56):
than just getting the contract.
And that was, that was definitelyan interesting journey.
So I'm, I'm in it for 15 years now,and I would say it took a solid
10 years, a decade to, um, reallyjust build out the whole business.
And, and what I mean by that is.
The sales and marketing was alwaysthe easy part for us, believe it or
(04:17):
not, which is typically, usually thehardest part for most businesses.
But it was like, alright, nowwe've generated all this business.
How do we actually take it from,you know, top of funnel to the end
to, to a point where everybody'shappy, not just pissed off.
Right.
You know, I'm sure you could probablyimagine there's a lot of years
of a lot of people being pissed,stop being patiently waiting for
us to learn the whole business.
(04:39):
Right.
So, um, and, and that doesn't justmean clients, I mean vendors, you know,
your suppliers, your subcontractors.
That even means also your internal staff.
How do you take all this business thatyou're generating and, and have happy
clients, happy staff, happy vendors,and they're actually all interrelated?
To be honest with you, you can'thave one without the other, right?
(04:59):
Like, if you have pissed off clients,you're most likely gonna have
really upset vendors and more upset.
Staff because they're not gonnathink that that's cool and so forth.
So really, you know, to kind of, tokind of go back here a little bit, uh,
15 years ago we really learned how todrum up a bunch of leads, really figure
out digital marketing at a time wherepeople rarely even really understood the
(05:22):
importance of like systems or processesor procedures in this business, right?
Like I always used to say, like,people didn't even really use
emails back then, let alone.
Understanding, kind of like, um, youknow, the, the information systems
and the digital marketing component.
So really quickly, we, weexpanded to, to four cities
across Canada within three years.
(05:42):
But, um, that was a bit of a mistakebecause we were still learning how to
be, you know, young men, entrepreneurs.
And on top of all that we'restill learning construction.
A funny story is, um, I remember.
Uh, you know, a contractor asked mesomething about Gypsum board and I had no
(06:04):
idea that gypsum board was drywall, andI'd just like look at him with a blank
face and he'd be like, oh, you don'tknow what I'm talking about, do you?
I'm like, Nope.
Luckily I was always reallyhonest with people, but.
That, that's really how we kindof got into this industry, really
understood digital marketing.
Um, there was a bit of a paradigmshift happening where digital
marketing was becoming one ofthe, the main components to, to a
(06:26):
business, and we really understoodit, optimized it, and figured it out
way long before, uh, most people did.
Yeah, I mean, you're,you're absolutely right.
Like I, I, I feel like a lot ofpeople I talk to really struggle.
With the, the lead flow, youknow, it's that top of the funnel.
It's like, you know, they, they,they, they have a couple early
wins, you know, some referrals,some, you know, repeat business.
(06:48):
But then it's like, man, how do wekeep growing and they haven't invested?
That foundation of marketing and likehaving the website and doing the SEO,
I mean, sounds like you guys likereally came in swinging pretty heavy
with, with that and, and just sort ofneeded to, to figure out what to do
next versus a lot of people know whatto do when they win the job, but it's
like, how do we keep those jobs coming?
(07:10):
Yeah.
That, that's exactly it.
Like we were very fortunate that, um, youknow, generating the leads and, and making
the phones ring and getting in front ofpeople was really never the hard part.
Um, you know, the.
Maybe something related was like,how do you make sure people aren't
wasting your time in the sales process?
And we really had to learn that.
But you, you figured out that, uh,figured that out really quickly.
(07:33):
The, the really difficult part was how.
How do you really tie it all together?
And I was, I was touching on it like,you know, happy staff, happy vendors,
and happy contractors and, uh, sorry, andhappy, uh, clients because it sounds like
it's really easy, you just do a good job.
But how do you do that when you'redoing, for example, um, you know, 150
(07:53):
projects a year and, and, and you know,you're turning over 15, $20 million of
renovations right across 200 projects.
That's a lot of challenging projects.
And, and, and how do you, how doyou manage all these personalities?
'cause that's really what it is, right?
You got all these clients with all these,you know, a spectrum of personalities.
(08:15):
You have all these vendors with aspectrum of personalities and, and staff.
And, and it really took a long timeto, well, you know, 10 years I think
is a long time, but in the grand schemeof things, it really wasn't that bad.
Now as I reflect on it, but, youknow, going through that emotional
rollercoaster it felt like forever, right?
Because I, I specifically remembera time in 2019, so I'm nine
(08:39):
years in, and we were doing.
I wanna say about $10 million ayear, one of our offices that year.
And, and, you know, we'remaking them some decent money.
We're, you know, I can't rememberthe exact amount, but I remember
catching myself at a crossroads whereI just wanted out of the business.
I wanted nothing to do with it.
It wasn't, you know, getting intobusiness and being an entrepreneur.
(09:00):
Yeah, money's a part of it, butit wasn't the most important part.
Um, I, I wanted to bea man of the community.
I wanted a place wheremy family, my daughters.
I can grow in a place where, where,you know, I'm, I'm spoken well of.
And in 2019, you know, uh,operationally we were having a really
(09:21):
difficult time, as you can imagine.
You know, we maybe got 50,60 jobs that are active and
everybody's just pissed off.
Staff was pissed off, or retentionwasn't, wasn't really good.
Um, vendors were upset.
Clients were upset.
And, you know, I'd, I'd havesome conversations with people
in the industry and they wouldtell me, that's just what it is.
Like, renovation sucks.
It's not fun and people arealways gonna be pissed off.
(09:43):
And, and sometimes I make me feel okay.
But, um, it, it didn't sit well with me.
And, and, and I think I, I wanted outof the industry actually to the point
where I even valued my company and had.
Had like a million dollar buyout on thetable ready to go, and something inside
of me, um, just didn't feel right.
(10:06):
And thankfully, because literally COVIDwas the next year and our business
doubled, you know, like doubled inrevenue and not just that COVID, like,
there was like a period where thingswere very slow, like just came to a
complete halt, I think, you know, uh,January, February, March, maybe April.
So that allowed me to kind of likestep back and be like, you know what?
(10:26):
I'm gonna figure this out.
I'm gonna figure out, and I'm not gonnabe okay with having, um, basically poor
experiences and, and we've narrowedthem down to experiences, client,
vendor, and employee experience.
And, you know, very fortunate enough,like five years later, like, we figured
it out and it's not rocket science.
Just a lot of little things.
I mean, if I were to just kindof generalize it to give you the,
(10:49):
the, the, the quick calls notes,it's constant feedback loops.
You know, let's, let's getconstant feedback loops from
everybody, whatever upsets them.
Let's just make sure that thereisn't the case the next time.
No, that's great.
Were, were there other, uh.
Like we're, like you said, when youexpanded into multiple cities and like
(11:09):
kind of you were expanding too quickly,like what happened that helped you sort
of understand that maybe, you know, we, wesort of lost control or we're we're having
trouble kind of managing that growth.
Was it just kind of, again, theteams, was it the, some of the
processes were breaking down?
Was it, you were trying to bein too many places at one time?
(11:29):
Like how, how did you, how didyou know that, that, that maybe
there were challenges that,that you weren't expecting?
Yeah.
Well, how did I know was because, Hmm.
So we, we got really goodat generating sales, right?
And then when we're really young and earlyon, we thought that's all we needed to do.
Everybody else could figure it out, right?
(11:51):
It's pretty straightforward.
We did the hard part.
But, um, what we didn't realize isno, like, operations, especially on
scale, could be extremely difficult.
And what ended up happening was.
We didn't have financial control,so we had partners stealing from
us and other offices we had.
Um, we were, I guess looking backon it now, we were just hoping
(12:13):
everybody would figure out operations,how hard it could it be, right?
Just hire a couple subcontractors,get in there and jobs done.
Right?
But no, it's not that simple.
And, and we really learned that thehard way where we sent two staff
out, uh, two staff from our Ottawaoffice to work in another city.
And, um, that wasactually our best launch.
You know, we did $2 million in thefirst 11 months of these two guys who
(12:36):
have never been in the city before.
Think about like.
Renovations.
Traditionally, traditionally, you, you,uh, work in the community for a certain
amount of years, built up a greatreputation and that's how you grew.
We were able to circumvent all that byjust sending two guys there, drum a bunch
of business, $2 million first 11 months.
Sounds great, right?
But now the challenging part is, well,they need to go and recruit subcontractors
(12:59):
and they need to recruit suppliers.
On the first go, everybody alwaysinterviews the best, so they
might, so it's, it's, it's hardto really know who is gonna be
the best until you try them out.
So the going got tough.
Um, with, with, um, with the guys thatwe sent out there and maybe the sub, the
subcontractors weren't doing really welland, and it became really difficult for
(13:22):
them, so they just threw in the towel.
But the, the, the thing is, is theygot headhunted by an American, um,
water basement waterproofing company.
These two guys now areexpanding that company all
across the states.
So you're saying those, those twoguys you had, that were managing, you
know, those jobs that were sellingthe jobs for you, I guess were, were
they also managing the projects?
(13:43):
Is that like, were thesalespeople doing both?
Yeah.
So really
early on, the idea was, you know,we sent two guys from Ottawa, uh,
to Calgary office to go open it up.
One guy was gonna do sales, oneguy was gonna do operations.
Okay.
And, and I think what we did is this.
We didn't really understand operations.
Like we, we just essentially gave'em the playbook for marketing sales
(14:04):
and generate a bunch of business.
And we were just hoping thatthey'd figure out operations.
And, you know, when they reflectback, like sometimes what I find
is that we make this look easy.
Um, you know, there's a lot thatgoes on in the background and maybe
what one of those guys was thinkingwas just like, yeah, you know what,
we're, we're just gonna hire somepeople and they're gonna manage those
crews and everything is gonna be fine.
(14:25):
Um, business is a lotmore difficult than that.
And, and I think what, what whatended up happening is, um, we, we
ended up keeping two of our fouroffices in, in Ottawa and Vancouver.
And we said like, look, beforewe're gonna start expanding and
opening up more offices, we reallygotta understand this business.
We really got gotta dial it in.
And, and essentially that's whatwe did over, over the first 10
(14:48):
years is really figure it out.
And then the last five years we've been.
Um, working on, well, not even thelast five years, even, just like
really the last year and a half we'vebeen, um, opening up other offices.
We, we bought one company and weopened, opened a new office and trying
to bring, bring all, everything thatwe've, um, really learned about the
business, um, in those 15 years, youknow, right down to, um, KPIs and, you
(15:12):
know, financials and general managementand operations and marketing and
kind of the whole, the whole thing.
And you guys do so, so kind ofacross all these different companies.
I mean, like you, you do homerenovations, you're, you're doing new
builds and then also, you know, multidevelopment, commercial type work.
Yeah.
So yeah, we, we, uh, a couple years agowe got into, so it's your typical thing.
(15:36):
We're a design build company.
We do all your, um, interior andexterior, uh, home renovations or
remodeling and, and new builds.
So your custom homes, yourmini homes, that sort of thing.
Uh, a couple years ago we noticed.
And, and you might, you might haveseen this in the States where there's
this big push for like multi-familyconstruction, so higher density
builds and, uh, we really jumped intolike low-rise apartment buildings.
(15:59):
So like eight units, 10 units.
Um, the biggest one we're building rightnow is 24 units, about 20,000 square feet.
So yeah, we're, we're into realestate development for, for
my little, you know, group.
Um, and, and for
clients as well.
Sure.
So you, you talked about kind ofcreating this, this, you know, constant
feedback loop, you know, like, youknow, it, it seems like, you know, we,
(16:21):
we got, you know, some guys who arereally good at sales and marketing,
but you know, not necessarily, youknow, as, as, as up to speed on the,
the, the construction, the build part.
You know, how, how did that, youknow, transpire to like, help you
guys on the sales side keep kind of.
Learning and improving, you know, wherethere are a lot of frustrations and
challenges, like, you know, somethingwas sold and then handed off to, you
(16:42):
know, to to, to one of your trade partnersubs who like, may have felt like, Hey,
like, I have no idea what you just sold.
And, you know, what didyou tell the client?
Like they're expectingsomething different.
Like how, how did you kind of puttogether this, this, you know, constant
feedback loop that you talked about,that that ultimately led to, you know,
improving the experience for everyone.
That's a, that's a really good question.
(17:03):
And, and it starts offwith the, with the clients.
So, um, you know, I touched base a littlebit about how 2019, you know, we, we were
doing well, we were making money, but, youknow, it was a lot of people pissed off.
And what, what we realized is it'shard, it was hard to keep everyone,
every client happy, mostly because.
(17:26):
You're dealing with different personalitytypes and you're also dealing with
people who have different levelsof experience of home renovations.
So what we did is we identified,um, five main points that every
homeowner that's going througha renovation really cares about.
Instead of trying to be a perfectcontractor and always hitting it out
(17:48):
of the park on like, let's say, um, youknow, communication and scheduling and,
and, and some of these other like littleparts, it's like, okay, let's really get
our clients to review us every two weeks.
Let's see what's bugging themand let's just attend to what's
ever bugging them urgently.
(18:08):
And it was just really that simple, right?
Like when you really thinkabout it, you've got.
The experienced homeowner who'sdone many renovations, you've
got the non-experienced one.
Like this is like the easiest example.
So the experienced, uh, homeownerwho's done renovations might not
necessarily care about a littlebit of drywall desk getting through
the, the, the zip tie barrier.
(18:30):
Um, they understand it, they'vebeen through it, but they've also
seen a lot of schedule slippagesin their prior experiences.
And this time they're gonna bereally stripped on you, making sure
you're following your schedule.
And then you've got the opposite type,which is the new, um, homeowner who's
doing a renovation for the first time.
Um, maybe they're not asstringent with the schedule.
(18:51):
Like they don't, they don't knowthat, you know, they think may, they
think it's a regular part of the job,but a little bit of drywall, dust,
really bugs 'em get, like leavingthat kind of like renovation space.
They're not used to that kind of chaos.
Right.
So that right alone, alone allows us to,um, really identify what's bothering a
homeowner and rectifying it really quick.
(19:13):
And they appreciate that you're listeningand they appreciate that you are urgently
dealing with a manner that maybe mostpeople might not see as an urgent.
Manner.
And, but we are, we'retreating it like that.
So that was a quick one for us to reallyturn around the client experience.
And when it came to, uh, our internalstaff and our suppliers, we just do
(19:33):
a closeout meeting with our, with ourclients at the end of the project.
And we tell 'em like, Hey, tell us what's,what's the good, the bad, the ugly?
You know, like literally.
Um, give us feedback on, on everypart from the sales process to
the transition into operations, toeven every single one of my trades.
I wanna know who you think is good andbad, because now when we're having these
(19:55):
difficult conversations with our internaland external team members, it's not like,
Hey, you know, you dropped the ball.
You need to do better.
It's like, Hey, here's thefeedback from our client.
What do you think?
You know, so, um, kind of constantcon creating a lot of that feedback.
Um, and, and also from, from a, justa grand scale of things, like even
(20:17):
in the position that I'm in, right?
Like, we've got 60 active jobs right now.
How do I know what myclient satisfaction rate is?
And it's just as simple as I got aspreadsheet and, and we, we asked
them to review us biweekly on fivepoints, and I can quickly scan like.
We're getting three out of fives, fourout of fives, or five out of five.
(20:37):
Are we getting a one out of five?
Well, you know what?
It's gonna happen, but we've gotstrategies and processes in place
where I need to see that fliparound by the next week, right?
So it's like if you're a homeowner andyou're like, look, your project manager
is missing the schedule, the site's notsuper clean and I barely hear from 'em.
We have a service manager who'sgonna call you and say, look,
(20:59):
I'm really sorry for that.
I talked, I talked aboutit to your project manager.
And by next two weeks from now, I'mgonna turn around all these things,
but when I do, I wanna make sure thatyou're giving me a five out of fives.
Sounds like a fair compromise, right?
Yeah.
So I'm looking at my spreadsheetand all I ever wanna see is positive
trends or just positive results.
(21:20):
So, so what are thosefive, those five points?
Yeah, that's, that's, that'sa good one and gonna make me
open up my spreadsheet here.
But if I recall, it's um.
Good communication, slight,slight cleanliness, uh, schedule,
professionalism and site safety.
Those, that's what it is.
Nice.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(21:40):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So, uh, you know, it's, we've, youknow, in, in the past we used to have
to sit down with upset clients and hearabout how terrible our process was.
Now it.
And, and, and how we didn't ma and, andhow they barely heard from us or whatever,
be it right now it's the opposite.
(22:01):
We get complaints that wereach out to them way too much.
And I, it, it's, it, I laughwhen we say that because like,
I actually take pride in that.
Like, you know, we, we, we, we over,uh, deliver on our customer service.
That, that's fantastic.
So, you know, just to kind of giveyou an idea, like all that being
said, all these learning lessonsfrom making all these mistakes.
(22:24):
The last two years in a row,we won, uh, best Places to Work
by the Ottawa Business Journal.
Why that one means so much tome is because by having a really
good organizational culturereally depends on all these other
factors that we talked about.
Like a really good client experience,a really good vendor experience,
um, and the obvious one, areally good employee experience.
(22:47):
And, and it's not easy to do whenyou're, when you're in the renovation
industry, where literally your job is,um, as they say, is to put out fires.
Like, that's why we have a job.
If, if there was no fires to be putout a design build company, which is
essentially, if you think about it, anarchitectural firm with construction
management, then we wouldn't have a job.
(23:08):
But we have a job because firesoccur and we gotta put them out
in the most efficient, effectiveway where everybody's happy.
So,
yeah.
So I'm curious, like when, you know,let, let's, let's say when you do see.
Underperforming, you know, remarks comingin at these, these biweekly, uh, you
know, check-ins there with the clients.
Like, how do you, how do youaddress those, those issues with,
(23:31):
you know, with, with the crew orwith, you know, your internal staff,
kind of whoever's responsible?
I mean, are you, are you callingthem out right then and there?
Like, how, you know, how are you holdingthem accountable to make sure that
these things don't keep happening?
Yeah, I, well, number one is addressingit, but not necessarily from a, from a
perspective where, hey, you screwed up.
It's like, Hey, look, here's thefeedback that we're getting, right?
(23:53):
Because at the end of the day, youknow, you always gotta give 'em a
benefit of the doubt, um, because,you know, let's say a crew member or
project manager, underdelivered, fromthe client's perspective, um, it could
easily look like that, uh, even thoughmaybe they did deliver and at least.
We have methods to make surethat, and we're documenting the
(24:17):
performance that we're delivering on.
So, as an example, let's say, um,you know, the, the client seems
to think that the project managernever communicated with them.
I mean, it, it's really easy for myproject manager to, to, to prove like,
Hey, look in our client portal, like Iliterally posted pictures every other day.
I posted updates every day.
I posted, uh, updatedschedules every week.
(24:40):
So.
Um, I think it's so important to addressit, but always give the benefit of
the doubt and, and like really justhave a positive conversation about it.
I think where it becomes a problemin where our, our process allows
us to identify is patterns.
You know, if we have a pat, a consistentpattern of clients being upset and,
(25:02):
and, and sometimes it's, it comes outmostly because of personality clashes.
Right.
So it's like if you're the homeowner,I'm the project managers and if I just
rub you the wrong way, you're gonna lookfor things to hold me accountable for
whether they're true or they're not.
And, and sometimes we haveto adjust to that, right?
So like I have a project managerwho's amazing, um, super punctual,
(25:25):
super diligent, uh, really smart,but he rubs people the wrong way.
And I can't even explain it, right?
He just rubs people the wrong way.
So we've had positive conversationswith him about being more empathetic.
As opposed to just like havingan excuse for everything, right?
So, um, sometimes it'sjust personality classes.
(25:46):
So to go back to your question, it's justaddressing them, making sure that we break
negative patterns of, of, of consistentnegative results and, and go from there.
At the end of the day, it's up toeverybody to kind of turn that around.
That's great.
What would you say?
I mean, you know, again,I'm the con congrats on the,
the, the best places to work.
I mean, I, and I know that that's,uh, you know, no easy feat, you know,
(26:09):
we, we, we compete here, uh, for thatone as well every year in, in Dallas.
And I'm curious, would you, would yousay, are, are there anything like,
you know, any specifics that you feellike you guys have done, you know, at
your companies, you know, with yourculture to, to really try to make
that a best place for people to work?
And I think it starts off with gettingthe right people on the bus and
(26:30):
getting the wrong people off the bus.
Um, you know, positive, uh, positiveenergy is contagious and, and negative
energies probably double that.
Um, so it, it becomes very obvious herewhen somebody's not a big cultural fit.
Um, you know, like I, I remember somebodyjoined our company and then within
(26:51):
a week, like I had two, three peoplecoming to me literally being like.
This guy's not gonnawork out here, you know?
Um, and it wasn't because ofperformance, it's just in his
attitude and how he carried himself.
Um, you know, just, just, you know,certain kind of spiteful sounding remarks.
And, and so getting the right people,uh, with the PO is positive mindset.
(27:14):
People who are pleasant to be around,uh, and people who are willing
to work in a team environment.
So, you know, if, if I were to,if you were to ask me, like,
kinda like, what, what are some ofthe things you're most proud of?
Is like, you know, when somebody'sgot a question or somebody needs help,
um, you'll, you'll see like five, 10people just kind of jump outta their
chair, be like, I'm ready to go.
(27:35):
You know?
Um, and, and, and that to me, youknow, may maybe it comes from.
12 years when I was younger, playingfootball, always kind of being captain
of a football team, always takinga leadership kind of, um, uh, role.
Uh, it makes me proud when, when there'sother people who are ready to kind
of go above and beyond, if you will.
'cause they don't have to do that.
(27:55):
And, and, and to me that just displays,like they really value their job.
They really value this team.
They really value being here.
And it's more than a paycheck.
And, and I think, you know, um.
You know, from the 15 years of putting,putting time into this, like, it makes me
proud tho those are one of the wins thatlike, I really let soak in and, and enjoy.
(28:17):
Absolutely.
How, how, how do you go aboutfinding those people and, and
when you do find somebody.
What's, what's your process for, youknow, really vetting them to make
sure that they are gonna be a good fitfor the team and that they've got the
skillset that they say, like, you know,I think being able to pick, you know,
the winners is, is, is a very toughthing, but over the years you get better
(28:37):
and better at, it's like, what's yourstrategy with recruiting and, and hiring?
You know what, I'm gonna be completely
honest with you.
Like, I'm.
I'm not bad and we're not bad at that,but we, we could be a whole lot better.
I'm sure you know, because I'll behonest with you, it's like everybody
interviews with their best, best face on.
(29:00):
Right.
Um, because when we, when we'reinterviewing, we understand it's actually
a lot more than their experience.
It's a lot more than their knowledge.
Um, there's, there's the,there's a care factor.
That's very hard to interview for.
Yeah.
Or you can ask them like, Hey, if,if one of your colleagues needs help,
(29:21):
are you ready to go and help them?
Everybody's gonna answer yes.
Right.
So I, I, I think that what, what we reallylike to do is like when, when we kind of
like ask all the tough questions, likedepending on the role is they've got, you
know, certain requirements, but once thatpasses, we, we just keep our eyes on them.
It's a bit of a trial and error for us.
You know, are they gonna last, arethey gonna, are they, are they gonna,
(29:44):
um, really step up to the platewhen things get really difficult?
And so there's a little bit ofscrutinizing that happens and, and
we just try to kind of, uh, give theman opportunity too because it's, it's
really difficult, you know, let'ssay as a project manager jump at a
situation and start managing five jobsand, and really have your care factor
like at a hundred percent, right?
(30:05):
But then if, if.
If you do extra little things, thoseare always really good indicators.
You know, like, um, if there was a leakon the weekend and then, you know, he
ran to the site and really tarp, tarpedthe roof himself, it's like, okay,
like, like our eyes, our eyes are onhim on in a good way like that, that's,
that's really honorable to do, right?
So I think, I think that there's goingthrough the process, but really trying
(30:28):
to keep our eyes on that care factor.
Because you know, it, it you, ifyou've got two project managers, one
with two years experience and onewith 20 years experience, if the guy
with 20 years experience doesn't careand the guy with two years experience
cares, the guy with, with, with thetwo years experience is gonna outshine
him all day, every day, at least inour business where it's really easy to
(30:49):
sweep problems under the rug and thenat the end be like, oh, I didn't know.
Um.
But, but when you have that carefactor, it becomes very obvious in how
the clients speak about you, how ourour vendors speak about you and, and
then how the staff speaks about you.
So when you kind of create thisorganizational culture of, um, teamwork
(31:11):
and, and, and being pleasant around,um, it kind of exponentially creates
a certain energy that just bouncesaway people who don't fit that mold.
Sure.
So man, now, so now like we're,we're, that's where we're at.
Like we actually had to let go of somebodythat was here for about two months
'cause he just didn't fit that mold.
He just, yeah.
(31:32):
I think that's, uh, you know, probablyone of the, the hardest things, I
mean, just like you said, I mean,everyone's gonna show up, you know, with
their game face on and, and can, youknow, do an, you know, an hour or two
interview and, you know, make it seemlike everything's all fine and dandy.
But you know what, what I've, what I'vebeen hearing, you know, some, some more
people started doing is like, really like.
You know, having those people and, and,and, and like paying them for, you know,
a day or a couple days where they actuallycome and like work, you know, hand in
(31:55):
hand, kind of go out to the job site.
Like they're, you know, literallygoing through, you know, the motions
of, of, of, of what it would be like.
And then it's like at the end of the day.
What do they really like?
Is that someone you, you know, you wantto go, you know, spend more time with,
go grab a bite, grab a drink with them?
Like, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's,it's a lot harder to kind of fake it
after a long day of, of, of hard workand, you know, kind of being there
(32:16):
at the, at the end of the day withsomeone that you really wanna be with.
I mean, that's, that's how you knowthey, they, they would be a good fit and.
You know, get, get along withpeople versus, you know, just kind
of a one or two hour interviewis, is, is a little bit tricky.
But, you know, I think also just likeinvolving the team, you know, even in
the interview process, like here we, youknow, we, we bring in multiple people.
It's kind of more like thissort of this final, you know,
in-person group interview.
(32:37):
Where, you know, at the end of theday, I, I, I know I can get really
excited about someone on, on paper.
They got all the right things, you know,they're saying the right things, doing the
right things, got the right experience,you know, but at the end of the day,
like, you know, that that can be blinding,you know, and it can cause you to sort
of, man, I, I really want this to work.
And you just sort of manifestit, like, yeah, this is the right
person, you know, but then you gotsomeone next to you who's like, you.
(32:58):
I kind of picked up on these things and,and maybe like the energy wasn't there.
Like, you know, when you ask 'em someof the, the harder questions, you know,
they, they start to kind of reveal thingsthat, that might actually be problematic.
And, you know, I may have missedover that, but luckily, you know,
I had a couple other people inthe room that can point 'em out.
It's like, you know, you're right.
You know, glad glad you brought that up.
And, you know, I think just kind ofthat, that, that, that collaborating
with the team, you know, because theyknow what the culture's all about,
(33:21):
they know what they're looking for,you know, they can sort of help, help
try to weed out those people who mightnot really be that, that good fit.
That's it.
That's it.
And, and
it's so important because especiallyif you, if you think about the
services industry and, and, you know,I consider us being in the services
industry, the, the right people.
If all things are, are the same systems,processes, procedures, strategies,
(33:43):
but you have, um, you know, in onebatch, really strong organizational
culture, really strong team, andthen on, on, on another batch, uh,
mediocre, a team and mediocre culture.
The, the strong team could exponentiallygrow your company alone just because,
um, of the, of the people on this team.
(34:06):
Yeah.
So when I really, really understoodthat having the right people
on your team, naturally alonewill help you grow the company.
I mean, there's already allthe odds against us as is.
So it's like if I, I'm always lookingfor path of least resistance, right?
Like game, well, I call 'emgame changers, like items where.
Um, can just help me growbecause of whatever they are.
(34:29):
So, you know, I'm very, I, I hold ourorganizational culture very close, and
I'm very, I keep that really well guard,guarded to the point where, you know,
new people come in here, I'm alwaysasking about them, like, how do they
act here and how do they deal with here?
And, and, and then eventually youget to a point where you just got all
these really awesome people, you know?
Yeah.
So obviously, you know, you, you've,you've, you've been involved in, in a
(34:50):
lot of different companies and startupsand kind of have played that, that
entrepreneurial leader role for a while.
You know, when, when you think back,like, is there anything, like, if, if,
if you were to go start another businesstoday, like is there anything that,
like you, you wish you would've known,you know, at the beginning of these
other businesses that like you would putinto place, you know, moving forward?
Like what, what would you do differentlyor, or what do you think, like, you
(35:12):
know, for someone else who is starting uptoday, like what would you advise them?
To try to give themself thebest chance for success.
You know that, that's a tough question.
And it's funny, right?
Because I, I think about this all thetime, like ignorance is bliss, you
know, like, like, like going, reflectingback, it's just like, all I cared about
(35:33):
when I started was the, the end goal.
Creating a really cool company and.
I was so confident I was gonna do that.
And after going through basically hell andback multiple times, I was just, I always
reflect like, how was I so confident?
How did I not think aboutall of this in between?
(35:56):
And sometimes ignorance is bliss.
Where maybe had I thought about all thestruggles and challenges that were gonna
come, maybe, maybe I wouldn't do it.
I don't know.
I have no idea.
Um, but you know.
The odds were against us.
So like, it, it, it's hard for meto say what would I do differently,
because it all worked out really well.
(36:16):
Like, we started our first company with$50,000 and, and you know, we did a
million dollars our, our first year notknowing anything about construction.
And then maybe two or 3 million thesecond year, and then we were like
four or five in the third year.
And, and, but, um, we didn'tmake money for a really long
time and there was really hardlearning lessons along the way.
So.
(36:38):
I don't know if I woulddo anything differently.
However, um, what I would say is, youknow, some advice for somebody who's
really looking to grow and reallylooking to build their business.
Um, really you, you gotta get yourselfto a situation where you're building
the business and not working in it.
You can, you can work in it andbuild the business only for so long.
(36:59):
But eventually you need to put peoplewho are working in the business.
And what I mean by that is,um, okay, you got a couple
million dollars in, in revenue.
Now you can hire a project manager.
Maybe you're doing the sales, maybeyou're hiring a sales person, but
then you're going in to reallywork on the rest of the business.
So, um, really, uh, implementingsystems in processes in place
(37:20):
to start building that machine.
Because a real business is,is, is essentially a machine
where people can work.
Within this machine, and thenit runs itself without you.
Um, so it's funny, right?
Because not having constructionexperience forced me into that situation.
Whether I knew it was right orwrong, it didn't, it didn't matter.
(37:41):
Like I was forced to be like, okay, well,like, let me, you know, let me figure out
our systems, let me figure out processesbecause that's the only thing I could do.
I couldn't lift the hammer.
I couldn't really even manage contractors.
Um.
So, so it naturally put me in thatsituation 'cause I had a lack of
construction knowledge and then itcome from the construction world.
So I, I, I already had an outsidethe box kind of point of view.
(38:04):
So building that business, uh, creatingautomated, um, lead systems, creating,
uh, a formalized sales process, you know,right down to the point of, uh, step one,
step two, step three, step four, this iswhat you say, you know, uh, more or less.
And, and doing that all across thedifferent parts of the business.
(38:26):
The next part, working to youroperations really define what
that project manager role is.
What's their roles and responsibilities?
What metrics are you gonna hold themaccountable for and that sort of thing.
So, uh, I guess my best advice isreally fast track your ability to
build the business and not work in it.
Yeah, no, that's great.
And what about like, personally,emotionally, mentally?
(38:50):
How, how have you weathered the, the,the rollercoaster, you know, of being
an entrepreneur and, and, and, you know,kind of what, what's that toll that's
it's taken on you and how do you kind ofmanage those, those those tough times?
You know?
Yeah.
That, that's a really good question.
So, like 2011, 2012, I remember wakingup in the morning going for a shower and
(39:12):
it was just like I had a panic attack andI've never had a panic attack actually.
Uh.
I've generally been always a pretty strongindividual, um, mentally, physically, but.
Especially, you know, I say in 2011,we're one year in, we didn't really have
enough resources to hire project managers.
(39:33):
So I was the project managerand, you know, you're, you're
taking a shower, you're waking upin the morning, what do you do?
You think about all the things yougotta deal with that day and all
the troubleshooting you gotta do.
So, so I had a bit of a panic attackand it was like, um, nothing serious,
just a little, he hyperventilating.
Then I remember askingme like, what is this?
Like this is weakness.
(39:54):
So like I, um, I always, my wholelife I worked out in the gym, but
maybe for like that first year ortwo wasn't as consistent or as good
because there's just so much happening.
So I ended up, um, getting, uh,really prioritizing my physical
fitness and uh, also making sureI'm, I was eating really well.
(40:16):
So trying to stay away fromprocessed foods, trying to eat
as much whole foods as possible.
Um, and then honestly like gettingsome emotional support from my family.
To be honest with you, it's gonnasound silly, but I used to call my
mom, you know, 'cause I've, I startedmy first company in Vancouver.
It's like a six hour flight.
(40:36):
It's like.
Uh, Virginia on one side, andthen, um, you know, Seattle on
the other kind of thing like that,that's kind of like the distance.
So I flew all the way to Vancouver onthe west coast to start my company, and
I remember I called my mom and I'd belike, I don't know if I could do this.
Like, I feel like a failure.
And just kind of going throughthe emotional support with her.
I was 26, 27 at the time.
(40:57):
So, um, you know, it's, it's,it's not as sad as maybe a
40-year-old calling his mom, but.
So emotional support with familyand really trying to push through.
I, I was always thatoverachiever in my life.
I have younger brothers, um, you know,I was always the overachiever in sports,
in school, in business, always had theselike small little companies that, that,
(41:19):
you know, aren't, aren't necessarily supersuccessful, but you know, when you're,
you're making a few thousand bucks as ateenager, you know, it went a long way.
But, and, and I thinkthat's really what, what.
Scared me was that, my God, amI gonna come back as a failure?
And, and so, um, emotional support,physical fitness, eating really good food.
I think it's a must.
Uh, yeah.
You, you're not, you're not gonna buildanything extraordinary as fast as I did.
(41:43):
If, if you're outta shape, if you'renot healthy, if, if you're not
mentally strong enough to deal with it.
Yeah,
no, that's all, all, all great advice.
You know, look, I, you know,I, I, I think again, it's, uh.
Being an entrepreneur is not, notfor the faint at heart by any means.
You know, it's, it's, it's tough andit, it can be, you know, mentally and
physically, you know, taxing on, on,on, on you and your body and your brain.
(42:04):
And, you know, I think people,uh, you know, who can sort of find
those other avenues to, you know,kind of relieve stress, you know,
help them kind of clear the mind.
Even taking, you know, vacations andtime away, you know, from, from time to
time can really help kind of clear, youknow, your, your, you're sort of being
overwhelmed in the day to day of, ofwhat is building a construction business.
(42:25):
I mean, and like you said,it's a lot of firefighting.
I mean, it's just par for the course here.
You know, you gotta figure out though, howdo you keep yourself, you know, focused.
Engaged and showing up every day readyto, you know, to conquer the day.
And I think that's where, you know, alot of the, the, the mental toll that,
that, that, that we feel as entrepreneurscan, can really weigh you down if you
don't find those other avenues to, tokeep yourself sane and, and, uh, you
(42:47):
know, kind of fit and, and, and, andable to process information in a, in a
little bit more systematic way versuskinda letting it overwhelm you and just
sort of flood the, flood the brain there.
It, it, it can, it can be really tough.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and I think, you know, toadd to what I was saying too,
I, I found, um, inspiration inreal people doing real things.
So just like reading a lot of books,you know, uh, from Steve Jobs to Arnold
(43:11):
Schwarzenegger, to Elon Musk, and, um,even, even 50 cent, you know, like, just,
just kind of, I, I always found, um.
I guess motivation from reading aboutreal people and the extraordinary events
and, and, and achievements that they had.
And I always said to myself, well, youknow, if this regular guy can do it,
(43:32):
so can I. And, and that kind of pumpedme up a little bit and got me excited.
Man, I, uh, said the exact same thingto myself when I started my first
software company, so I totally get it.
It's, uh, you know, it's, and, and, andagain, like studying those who have been
before us, and you know, there reallyis like, there's, there's no reason that
they should be able to succeed, that youcouldn't, if you devote yourself and you
(43:52):
put, you know, put, put, put your focusand energy towards making that happen.
I mean, you know, I believe we canmanifest our own, our own success
and create our own destiny, so.
For sure.
So I'm, I'm, I'm curious, you know,kind of just in, in closing here, I
mean, like what's, what's your, what,what's your larger plan, larger vision?
Like where do you wanna see, youknow, your, your, your business in
the next, you know, five, 10 years?
(44:12):
Like, what, what do, whatdo you wanna do here?
Yeah, that, that's a, that's a really good
one.
Uh, good question.
Um, 'cause it all dependson the day you ask me.
Uh, I think I've settled on, I'm lookingto, um, we just bought a company about
two months ago and it has been, um,a little bit challenging, just kind
of like integrating them and gettingthem doing things the way we do them,
(44:36):
but I'm sure we'll figure it out.
Um, but I think we wanna grow throughacquisitions, um, maybe potentially
get to about a hundred million dollars.
Between a few of the companies right now,um, we're at like, you know, just over
30 million, but that's not fair 'causeone of them does 21 million or 21, 22.
So, but grow through acquisitionsand maybe get to a hundred
(44:58):
million dollars, but also, um.
For my little group, my little, wehave a few partners in the company, um,
that invest in real estate as well too.
And, and we're looking to get to about ahundred units in, in, in a few years where
we roughly got about 60 in our pipeline.
So a hundred million dollarsin revenue, a hundred units.
Um, you know, we should be there in aboutfive years and five to 10 years, and.
(45:20):
I don't know, man.
I, I wanna have fun too, right?
Like my days of suffering are just done.
So if something is gonna be like,super stressful or something,
you know, I take pride.
Um, I, I work really hard, but, uh,I'm hung for dinner every day and,
and, uh, I, I invest in my daughters,um, extracurricular, so driving them
to their gymnastics, to their soccer,and really being a big part of that.
(45:43):
So, um, I wanna do all thosethings, but honestly, it's.
I'm not growing past where Igot today and, and, and I got
to keep doing what I'm doing.
I'd be happy with that as well too.
Nice.
I'm, I'm curious, so the, the acquisitionyou just made, I mean, like is there a
particular profile or type of company,you know, a type of revenue that, that
you see as like the best opportunityto, to, to grow through acquisition?
(46:07):
Yeah, so when we, we like reachedout to like maybe a thousand
companies and I think had, um.
Conversation with maybe a hundred of them.
And then I stepped in for about 20 ofthem and we were looking for basically
the exact same model as my company is now.
Maybe, maybe the processes are a littlebit different or the terminology's
(46:29):
different, but they had to, um, atleast do four fi $5 million in revenue.
They had to have, uh, they were truedesign build companies, so they had
architectural designers on staff.
They had.
Material selections or interior designerson staff and ops team, the sales team
because, um, the reason why we wanted togrow through acquisition is just, I was
(46:50):
just done with startups, you know, likestarting a brand, you know, um, recruiting
people and going through trial and error.
I didn't want any of that.
I wanted to take all the great thingsthat we have and implement it on
something very similar to what we areand just, um, scale them from there.
So a true design build company, acompany that really ran off systems
(47:12):
and processes, and, um, a company thatwas doing at least four or $5 million.
So this one was, was doing abouteight, somewhere between eight,
8.5, and I think we can get them to10 within the first year, and then
hopefully 15 in the next couple years.
Nice.
It sounds like a great strategy, man.
It's, uh, you know, you're kindof taking the, the, the playbook
from a lot of the, you know, theprivate equity of the investors.
(47:32):
I mean, we definitely see a lot ofconsolidation, you know, rollups in
the industry, but, you know, I'm, I'mall about the, the strategic, you know,
if you can do it and, you know, kindof keep, keep true to yourself and
your own, you know, core values, yourown mission vision, kind of take that
culture and, and be able to expand itto others and bring on the right teams.
I mean, you know, there's that.
See no reason why you can'tbe very successful doing that.
(47:53):
Yeah, we're really excited.
Hey, we'll give it a shot.
And it just feels like kind oflike the next evolution and, um,
we'll, we'll, we'll see wherewe go, where we go from there.
We've got, um, yeah, uh, one of ourreally strong partners down there
leading the charge and, um, you know,we'll, we'll have a little bit of fun
doing it and if it works out great.
If not, it's not gonnabe the end of the world
(48:13):
area.
Awesome, man.
Well, Farris, look, I, I reallyappreciate you coming on sharing a
little bit about your story, kind of thebackground, some of the challenges you've,
you've had and you know, how you'recontinuing to build that great team.
You know, being able to, to,to also kind of grow into the
future and your plans there.
You know, just wanna thank youfor, for taking the time and
for sharing that with everyone.
Really appreciate it.
Yeah.
Sounds good Erica.
Thanks for having me on here.
(48:34):
It's, I really enjoyed it.
Um, and yeah, I, I am really impressedwith what you're doing, um, with
Job Tread and, you know, keep it up.
It's, I'm sure it's not really easyand, you know, I, I, I wish you
success here in the near future.
Awesome.
Appreciate it.
Thanks
son.
See it.
How's it going everybody?
Welcome back.
I'm real excited.
I've got a great guest here.
We have Ferris Elba fromCanadian General Contractors.
They're located all over Canada,I think, what, three or four
profit and something like that.
Uh, really excited tohave you on the show.
Welcome to Builder Stories.
Awesome.
Yeah, thanks for having me, Eric.
Bonus points for getting my name right.
Hey, well, you did gimme a littlecoaching earlier, but, uh, hey, so,
(00:40):
so look, Ferris, why don't you give usa little bit of background, kind of,
you, you've got a very unique storywhere you've been involved in a lot
of different construction companies.
You, you've really built and grown yours.
So why don't you kind of giveus, give us the background and
how'd you get into construction?
What led you to, to startup a construction company?
Yeah, that, that's,that's a great question.
I, I always wonder myself too.
(01:01):
So I, I, I got in construction, um, 15years ago, roughly in, around 2010, 2011.
And, um, I, I did get intothe industry from a unique
standpoint in the sense that.
I didn't get in by lifting a hammer.
You know, the, the traditional senseof kind of like working your way from,
(01:22):
from, you know, the, the guy that'skind of sweeping the floors all the
way to, um, the guy running the cruise.
That, that really wasn't my, um,traditional route that I took.
Um, really, really early on, Iremember graduating university,
um, a group of friends and I,including my brother, we were, um.
Really interested in, you know, thetech startup scene and we took a liking
(01:45):
for, uh, Tim Ferris and the four Hourwork week, which was just this whole
new world of like looking at businessand looking at kind of like, you know,
what your work schedule would look likeand we're really fascinated with how he
was able to kind of like leverage, um.
The, the internet and globalizationand, and, and all these little
(02:08):
factors to kind of build a business.
So we, we ended up starting off with,um, digital marketing, like really
trying to learn about digital marketing.
'cause you know, that's really what,what Tim Ferriss was, was able to
kind of get across to us in hisbook amongst many other things.
And we thought about.
What, what would be the big, one of thebiggest industries where we could apply
(02:30):
digital marketing to and, um, and see,and see what that can kind of look like.
Right.
So, so we dabbled a little bit with somedigital marketing and, and renovations.
And then, and I remember like 15 yearsago when we got our first lead, it's
like, whoa, like this, like this works.
Like, you know, we could do afew things online here, create a
website, maybe a little bit of.
(02:51):
Um, uh, so, uh, search enginemarketing, if you will, like Google
or whatever and, and make the phonesring or, or, or get people interested
in potentially working with us.
And, and, and I, I rememberbeing, um, in Greece.
When my brother, uh, was reallyworking on, um, the SEO side, so the
(03:11):
traditional, creating some backlinks,sending some, um, you know, backlinks
to a website, and then he would end upranking, uh, our website, number one
before we really built the business.
I remember being in Greece and typing,um, you know, Ottawa contractors.
So, so one of our companies calledOttawa General Contractors, and I
was like, blown away that we werelike the first result when I was
(03:34):
in Greece for Ottawa contractors.
And you know, it sounds so silly heretoday, but I was just like, wow, like
we're probably really onto something.
So we, we really, uh, startedoff with digital marketing and,
and we were salespeople as welltoo, and we really learned how to
drum up a whole lot of business.
Uh, but then we quickly really learnedthat there's a lot more to business
(03:56):
than just getting the contract.
And that was, that was definitelyan interesting journey.
So I'm, I'm in it for 15 years now,and I would say it took a solid
10 years, a decade to, um, reallyjust build out the whole business.
And, and what I mean by that is.
The sales and marketing was alwaysthe easy part for us, believe it or
(04:17):
not, which is typically, usually thehardest part for most businesses.
But it was like, alright, nowwe've generated all this business.
How do we actually take it from,you know, top of funnel to the end
to, to a point where everybody'shappy, not just pissed off.
Right.
You know, I'm sure you could probablyimagine there's a lot of years
of a lot of people being pissed,stop being patiently waiting for
us to learn the whole business.
(04:39):
Right.
So, um, and, and that doesn't justmean clients, I mean vendors, you know,
your suppliers, your subcontractors.
That even means also your internal staff.
How do you take all this business thatyou're generating and, and have happy
clients, happy staff, happy vendors,and they're actually all interrelated?
To be honest with you, you can'thave one without the other, right?
(04:59):
Like, if you have pissed off clients,you're most likely gonna have
really upset vendors and more upset.
Staff because they're not gonnathink that that's cool and so forth.
So really, you know, to kind of, tokind of go back here a little bit, uh,
15 years ago we really learned how todrum up a bunch of leads, really figure
out digital marketing at a time wherepeople rarely even really understood the
(05:22):
importance of like systems or processesor procedures in this business, right?
Like I always used to say, like,people didn't even really use
emails back then, let alone.
Understanding, kind of like, um, youknow, the, the information systems
and the digital marketing component.
So really quickly, we, weexpanded to, to four cities
across Canada within three years.
(05:42):
But, um, that was a bit of a mistakebecause we were still learning how to
be, you know, young men, entrepreneurs.
And on top of all that we'restill learning construction.
A funny story is, um, I remember.
Uh, you know, a contractor asked mesomething about Gypsum board and I had no
(06:04):
idea that gypsum board was drywall, andI'd just like look at him with a blank
face and he'd be like, oh, you don'tknow what I'm talking about, do you?
I'm like, Nope.
Luckily I was always reallyhonest with people, but.
That, that's really how we kindof got into this industry, really
understood digital marketing.
Um, there was a bit of a paradigmshift happening where digital
marketing was becoming one ofthe, the main components to, to a
(06:26):
business, and we really understoodit, optimized it, and figured it out
way long before, uh, most people did.
Yeah, I mean, you're,you're absolutely right.
Like I, I, I feel like a lot ofpeople I talk to really struggle.
With the, the lead flow, youknow, it's that top of the funnel.
It's like, you know, they, they,they, they have a couple early
wins, you know, some referrals,some, you know, repeat business.
(06:48):
But then it's like, man, how do wekeep growing and they haven't invested?
That foundation of marketing and likehaving the website and doing the SEO,
I mean, sounds like you guys likereally came in swinging pretty heavy
with, with that and, and just sort ofneeded to, to figure out what to do
next versus a lot of people know whatto do when they win the job, but it's
like, how do we keep those jobs coming?
(07:10):
Yeah.
That, that's exactly it.
Like we were very fortunate that, um, youknow, generating the leads and, and making
the phones ring and getting in front ofpeople was really never the hard part.
Um, you know, the.
Maybe something related was like,how do you make sure people aren't
wasting your time in the sales process?
And we really had to learn that.
But you, you figured out that, uh,figured that out really quickly.
(07:33):
The, the really difficult part was how.
How do you really tie it all together?
And I was, I was touching on it like,you know, happy staff, happy vendors,
and happy contractors and, uh, sorry, andhappy, uh, clients because it sounds like
it's really easy, you just do a good job.
But how do you do that when you'redoing, for example, um, you know, 150
(07:53):
projects a year and, and, and you know,you're turning over 15, $20 million of
renovations right across 200 projects.
That's a lot of challenging projects.
And, and, and how do you, how doyou manage all these personalities?
'cause that's really what it is, right?
You got all these clients with all these,you know, a spectrum of personalities.
(08:15):
You have all these vendors with aspectrum of personalities and, and staff.
And, and it really took a long timeto, well, you know, 10 years I think
is a long time, but in the grand schemeof things, it really wasn't that bad.
Now as I reflect on it, but, youknow, going through that emotional
rollercoaster it felt like forever, right?
Because I, I specifically remembera time in 2019, so I'm nine
(08:39):
years in, and we were doing.
I wanna say about $10 million ayear, one of our offices that year.
And, and, you know, we'remaking them some decent money.
We're, you know, I can't rememberthe exact amount, but I remember
catching myself at a crossroads whereI just wanted out of the business.
I wanted nothing to do with it.
It wasn't, you know, getting intobusiness and being an entrepreneur.
(09:00):
Yeah, money's a part of it, butit wasn't the most important part.
Um, I, I wanted to bea man of the community.
I wanted a place wheremy family, my daughters.
I can grow in a place where, where,you know, I'm, I'm spoken well of.
And in 2019, you know, uh,operationally we were having a really
(09:21):
difficult time, as you can imagine.
You know, we maybe got 50,60 jobs that are active and
everybody's just pissed off.
Staff was pissed off, or retentionwasn't, wasn't really good.
Um, vendors were upset.
Clients were upset.
And, you know, I'd, I'd havesome conversations with people
in the industry and they wouldtell me, that's just what it is.
Like, renovation sucks.
It's not fun and people arealways gonna be pissed off.
(09:43):
And, and sometimes I make me feel okay.
But, um, it, it didn't sit well with me.
And, and, and I think I, I wanted outof the industry actually to the point
where I even valued my company and had.
Had like a million dollar buyout on thetable ready to go, and something inside
of me, um, just didn't feel right.
(10:06):
And thankfully, because literally COVIDwas the next year and our business
doubled, you know, like doubled inrevenue and not just that COVID, like,
there was like a period where thingswere very slow, like just came to a
complete halt, I think, you know, uh,January, February, March, maybe April.
So that allowed me to kind of likestep back and be like, you know what?
(10:26):
I'm gonna figure this out.
I'm gonna figure out, and I'm not gonnabe okay with having, um, basically poor
experiences and, and we've narrowedthem down to experiences, client,
vendor, and employee experience.
And, you know, very fortunate enough,like five years later, like, we figured
it out and it's not rocket science.
Just a lot of little things.
I mean, if I were to just kindof generalize it to give you the,
(10:49):
the, the, the quick calls notes,it's constant feedback loops.
You know, let's, let's getconstant feedback loops from
everybody, whatever upsets them.
Let's just make sure that thereisn't the case the next time.
No, that's great.
Were, were there other, uh.
Like we're, like you said, when youexpanded into multiple cities and like
(11:09):
kind of you were expanding too quickly,like what happened that helped you sort
of understand that maybe, you know, we, wesort of lost control or we're we're having
trouble kind of managing that growth.
Was it just kind of, again, theteams, was it the, some of the
processes were breaking down?
Was it, you were trying to bein too many places at one time?
(11:29):
Like how, how did you, how didyou know that, that, that maybe
there were challenges that,that you weren't expecting?
Yeah.
Well, how did I know was because, Hmm.
So we, we got really goodat generating sales, right?
And then when we're really young and earlyon, we thought that's all we needed to do.
Everybody else could figure it out, right?
(11:51):
It's pretty straightforward.
We did the hard part.
But, um, what we didn't realize isno, like, operations, especially on
scale, could be extremely difficult.
And what ended up happening was.
We didn't have financial control,so we had partners stealing from
us and other offices we had.
Um, we were, I guess looking backon it now, we were just hoping
(12:13):
everybody would figure out operations,how hard it could it be, right?
Just hire a couple subcontractors,get in there and jobs done.
Right?
But no, it's not that simple.
And, and we really learned that thehard way where we sent two staff
out, uh, two staff from our Ottawaoffice to work in another city.
And, um, that wasactually our best launch.
You know, we did $2 million in thefirst 11 months of these two guys who
(12:36):
have never been in the city before.
Think about like.
Renovations.
Traditionally, traditionally, you, you,uh, work in the community for a certain
amount of years, built up a greatreputation and that's how you grew.
We were able to circumvent all that byjust sending two guys there, drum a bunch
of business, $2 million first 11 months.
Sounds great, right?
But now the challenging part is, well,they need to go and recruit subcontractors
(12:59):
and they need to recruit suppliers.
On the first go, everybody alwaysinterviews the best, so they
might, so it's, it's, it's hardto really know who is gonna be
the best until you try them out.
So the going got tough.
Um, with, with, um, with the guys thatwe sent out there and maybe the sub, the
subcontractors weren't doing really welland, and it became really difficult for
(13:22):
them, so they just threw in the towel.
But the, the, the thing is, is theygot headhunted by an American, um,
water basement waterproofing company.
These two guys now areexpanding that company all
across the states.
So you're saying those, those twoguys you had, that were managing, you
know, those jobs that were sellingthe jobs for you, I guess were, were
they also managing the projects?
(13:43):
Is that like, were thesalespeople doing both?
Yeah.
So really
early on, the idea was, you know,we sent two guys from Ottawa, uh,
to Calgary office to go open it up.
One guy was gonna do sales, oneguy was gonna do operations.
Okay.
And, and I think what we did is this.
We didn't really understand operations.
Like we, we just essentially gave'em the playbook for marketing sales
(14:04):
and generate a bunch of business.
And we were just hoping thatthey'd figure out operations.
And, you know, when they reflectback, like sometimes what I find
is that we make this look easy.
Um, you know, there's a lot thatgoes on in the background and maybe
what one of those guys was thinkingwas just like, yeah, you know what,
we're, we're just gonna hire somepeople and they're gonna manage those
crews and everything is gonna be fine.
(14:25):
Um, business is a lotmore difficult than that.
And, and I think what, what whatended up happening is, um, we, we
ended up keeping two of our fouroffices in, in Ottawa and Vancouver.
And we said like, look, beforewe're gonna start expanding and
opening up more offices, we reallygotta understand this business.
We really got gotta dial it in.
And, and essentially that's whatwe did over, over the first 10
(14:48):
years is really figure it out.
And then the last five years we've been.
Um, working on, well, not even thelast five years, even, just like
really the last year and a half we'vebeen, um, opening up other offices.
We, we bought one company and weopened, opened a new office and trying
to bring, bring all, everything thatwe've, um, really learned about the
business, um, in those 15 years, youknow, right down to, um, KPIs and, you
(15:12):
know, financials and general managementand operations and marketing and
kind of the whole, the whole thing.
And you guys do so, so kind ofacross all these different companies.
I mean, like you, you do homerenovations, you're, you're doing new
builds and then also, you know, multidevelopment, commercial type work.
Yeah.
So yeah, we, we, uh, a couple years agowe got into, so it's your typical thing.
(15:36):
We're a design build company.
We do all your, um, interior andexterior, uh, home renovations or
remodeling and, and new builds.
So your custom homes, yourmini homes, that sort of thing.
Uh, a couple years ago we noticed.
And, and you might, you might haveseen this in the States where there's
this big push for like multi-familyconstruction, so higher density
builds and, uh, we really jumped intolike low-rise apartment buildings.
(15:59):
So like eight units, 10 units.
Um, the biggest one we're building rightnow is 24 units, about 20,000 square feet.
So yeah, we're, we're into realestate development for, for
my little, you know, group.
Um, and, and for
clients as well.
Sure.
So you, you talked about kind ofcreating this, this, you know, constant
feedback loop, you know, like, youknow, it, it seems like, you know, we,
(16:21):
we got, you know, some guys who arereally good at sales and marketing,
but you know, not necessarily, youknow, as, as, as up to speed on the,
the, the construction, the build part.
You know, how, how did that, youknow, transpire to like, help you
guys on the sales side keep kind of.
Learning and improving, you know, wherethere are a lot of frustrations and
challenges, like, you know, somethingwas sold and then handed off to, you
(16:42):
know, to to, to one of your trade partnersubs who like, may have felt like, Hey,
like, I have no idea what you just sold.
And, you know, what didyou tell the client?
Like they're expectingsomething different.
Like how, how did you kind of puttogether this, this, you know, constant
feedback loop that you talked about,that that ultimately led to, you know,
improving the experience for everyone.
That's a, that's a really good question.
(17:03):
And, and it starts offwith the, with the clients.
So, um, you know, I touched base a littlebit about how 2019, you know, we, we were
doing well, we were making money, but, youknow, it was a lot of people pissed off.
And what, what we realized is it'shard, it was hard to keep everyone,
every client happy, mostly because.
(17:26):
You're dealing with different personalitytypes and you're also dealing with
people who have different levelsof experience of home renovations.
So what we did is we identified,um, five main points that every
homeowner that's going througha renovation really cares about.
Instead of trying to be a perfectcontractor and always hitting it out
(17:48):
of the park on like, let's say, um, youknow, communication and scheduling and,
and, and some of these other like littleparts, it's like, okay, let's really get
our clients to review us every two weeks.
Let's see what's bugging themand let's just attend to what's
ever bugging them urgently.
(18:08):
And it was just really that simple, right?
Like when you really thinkabout it, you've got.
The experienced homeowner who'sdone many renovations, you've
got the non-experienced one.
Like this is like the easiest example.
So the experienced, uh, homeownerwho's done renovations might not
necessarily care about a littlebit of drywall desk getting through
the, the, the zip tie barrier.
(18:30):
Um, they understand it, they'vebeen through it, but they've also
seen a lot of schedule slippagesin their prior experiences.
And this time they're gonna bereally stripped on you, making sure
you're following your schedule.
And then you've got the opposite type,which is the new, um, homeowner who's
doing a renovation for the first time.
Um, maybe they're not asstringent with the schedule.
(18:51):
Like they don't, they don't knowthat, you know, they think may, they
think it's a regular part of the job,but a little bit of drywall, dust,
really bugs 'em get, like leavingthat kind of like renovation space.
They're not used to that kind of chaos.
Right.
So that right alone, alone allows us to,um, really identify what's bothering a
homeowner and rectifying it really quick.
(19:13):
And they appreciate that you're listeningand they appreciate that you are urgently
dealing with a manner that maybe mostpeople might not see as an urgent.
Manner.
And, but we are, we'retreating it like that.
So that was a quick one for us to reallyturn around the client experience.
And when it came to, uh, our internalstaff and our suppliers, we just do
(19:33):
a closeout meeting with our, with ourclients at the end of the project.
And we tell 'em like, Hey, tell us what's,what's the good, the bad, the ugly?
You know, like literally.
Um, give us feedback on, on everypart from the sales process to
the transition into operations, toeven every single one of my trades.
I wanna know who you think is good andbad, because now when we're having these
(19:55):
difficult conversations with our internaland external team members, it's not like,
Hey, you know, you dropped the ball.
You need to do better.
It's like, Hey, here's thefeedback from our client.
What do you think?
You know, so, um, kind of constantcon creating a lot of that feedback.
Um, and, and also from, from a, justa grand scale of things, like even
(20:17):
in the position that I'm in, right?
Like, we've got 60 active jobs right now.
How do I know what myclient satisfaction rate is?
And it's just as simple as I got aspreadsheet and, and we, we asked
them to review us biweekly on fivepoints, and I can quickly scan like.
We're getting three out of fives, fourout of fives, or five out of five.
(20:37):
Are we getting a one out of five?
Well, you know what?
It's gonna happen, but we've gotstrategies and processes in place
where I need to see that fliparound by the next week, right?
So it's like if you're a homeowner andyou're like, look, your project manager
is missing the schedule, the site's notsuper clean and I barely hear from 'em.
We have a service manager who'sgonna call you and say, look,
(20:59):
I'm really sorry for that.
I talked, I talked aboutit to your project manager.
And by next two weeks from now, I'mgonna turn around all these things,
but when I do, I wanna make sure thatyou're giving me a five out of fives.
Sounds like a fair compromise, right?
Yeah.
So I'm looking at my spreadsheetand all I ever wanna see is positive
trends or just positive results.
(21:20):
So, so what are thosefive, those five points?
Yeah, that's, that's, that'sa good one and gonna make me
open up my spreadsheet here.
But if I recall, it's um.
Good communication, slight,slight cleanliness, uh, schedule,
professionalism and site safety.
Those, that's what it is.
Nice.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
(21:40):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So, uh, you know, it's, we've, youknow, in, in the past we used to have
to sit down with upset clients and hearabout how terrible our process was.
Now it.
And, and, and how we didn't ma and, andhow they barely heard from us or whatever,
be it right now it's the opposite.
(22:01):
We get complaints that wereach out to them way too much.
And I, it, it's, it, I laughwhen we say that because like,
I actually take pride in that.
Like, you know, we, we, we, we over,uh, deliver on our customer service.
That, that's fantastic.
So, you know, just to kind of giveyou an idea, like all that being
said, all these learning lessonsfrom making all these mistakes.
(22:24):
The last two years in a row,we won, uh, best Places to Work
by the Ottawa Business Journal.
Why that one means so much tome is because by having a really
good organizational culturereally depends on all these other
factors that we talked about.
Like a really good client experience,a really good vendor experience,
um, and the obvious one, areally good employee experience.
(22:47):
And, and it's not easy to do whenyou're, when you're in the renovation
industry, where literally your job is,um, as they say, is to put out fires.
Like, that's why we have a job.
If, if there was no fires to be putout a design build company, which is
essentially, if you think about it, anarchitectural firm with construction
management, then we wouldn't have a job.
(23:08):
But we have a job because firesoccur and we gotta put them out
in the most efficient, effectiveway where everybody's happy.
So,
yeah.
So I'm curious, like when, you know,let, let's, let's say when you do see.
Underperforming, you know, remarks comingin at these, these biweekly, uh, you
know, check-ins there with the clients.
Like, how do you, how do youaddress those, those issues with,
(23:31):
you know, with, with the crew orwith, you know, your internal staff,
kind of whoever's responsible?
I mean, are you, are you callingthem out right then and there?
Like, how, you know, how are you holdingthem accountable to make sure that
these things don't keep happening?
Yeah, I, well, number one is addressingit, but not necessarily from a, from a
perspective where, hey, you screwed up.
It's like, Hey, look, here's thefeedback that we're getting, right?
(23:53):
Because at the end of the day, youknow, you always gotta give 'em a
benefit of the doubt, um, because,you know, let's say a crew member or
project manager, underdelivered, fromthe client's perspective, um, it could
easily look like that, uh, even thoughmaybe they did deliver and at least.
We have methods to make surethat, and we're documenting the
(24:17):
performance that we're delivering on.
So, as an example, let's say, um,you know, the, the client seems
to think that the project managernever communicated with them.
I mean, it, it's really easy for myproject manager to, to, to prove like,
Hey, look in our client portal, like Iliterally posted pictures every other day.
I posted updates every day.
I posted, uh, updatedschedules every week.
(24:40):
So.
Um, I think it's so important to addressit, but always give the benefit of
the doubt and, and like really justhave a positive conversation about it.
I think where it becomes a problemin where our, our process allows
us to identify is patterns.
You know, if we have a pat, a consistentpattern of clients being upset and,
(25:02):
and, and sometimes it's, it comes outmostly because of personality clashes.
Right.
So it's like if you're the homeowner,I'm the project managers and if I just
rub you the wrong way, you're gonna lookfor things to hold me accountable for
whether they're true or they're not.
And, and sometimes we haveto adjust to that, right?
So like I have a project managerwho's amazing, um, super punctual,
(25:25):
super diligent, uh, really smart,but he rubs people the wrong way.
And I can't even explain it, right?
He just rubs people the wrong way.
So we've had positive conversationswith him about being more empathetic.
As opposed to just like havingan excuse for everything, right?
So, um, sometimes it'sjust personality classes.
(25:46):
So to go back to your question, it's justaddressing them, making sure that we break
negative patterns of, of, of consistentnegative results and, and go from there.
At the end of the day, it's up toeverybody to kind of turn that around.
That's great.
What would you say?
I mean, you know, again,I'm the con congrats on the,
the, the best places to work.
I mean, I, and I know that that's,uh, you know, no easy feat, you know,
(26:09):
we, we, we compete here, uh, for thatone as well every year in, in Dallas.
And I'm curious, would you, would yousay, are, are there anything like,
you know, any specifics that you feellike you guys have done, you know, at
your companies, you know, with yourculture to, to really try to make
that a best place for people to work?
And I think it starts off with gettingthe right people on the bus and
(26:30):
getting the wrong people off the bus.
Um, you know, positive, uh, positiveenergy is contagious and, and negative
energies probably double that.
Um, so it, it becomes very obvious herewhen somebody's not a big cultural fit.
Um, you know, like I, I remember somebodyjoined our company and then within
(26:51):
a week, like I had two, three peoplecoming to me literally being like.
This guy's not gonnawork out here, you know?
Um, and it wasn't because ofperformance, it's just in his
attitude and how he carried himself.
Um, you know, just, just, you know,certain kind of spiteful sounding remarks.
And, and so getting the right people,uh, with the PO is positive mindset.
(27:14):
People who are pleasant to be around,uh, and people who are willing
to work in a team environment.
So, you know, if, if I were to,if you were to ask me, like,
kinda like, what, what are some ofthe things you're most proud of?
Is like, you know, when somebody'sgot a question or somebody needs help,
um, you'll, you'll see like five, 10people just kind of jump outta their
chair, be like, I'm ready to go.
(27:35):
You know?
Um, and, and, and that to me, youknow, may maybe it comes from.
12 years when I was younger, playingfootball, always kind of being captain
of a football team, always takinga leadership kind of, um, uh, role.
Uh, it makes me proud when, when there'sother people who are ready to kind
of go above and beyond, if you will.
'cause they don't have to do that.
(27:55):
And, and, and to me that just displays,like they really value their job.
They really value this team.
They really value being here.
And it's more than a paycheck.
And, and I think, you know, um.
You know, from the 15 years of putting,putting time into this, like, it makes me
proud tho those are one of the wins thatlike, I really let soak in and, and enjoy.
(28:17):
Absolutely.
How, how, how do you go aboutfinding those people and, and
when you do find somebody.
What's, what's your process for, youknow, really vetting them to make
sure that they are gonna be a good fitfor the team and that they've got the
skillset that they say, like, you know,I think being able to pick, you know,
the winners is, is, is a very toughthing, but over the years you get better
(28:37):
and better at, it's like, what's yourstrategy with recruiting and, and hiring?
You know what, I'm gonna be completely
honest with you.
Like, I'm.
I'm not bad and we're not bad at that,but we, we could be a whole lot better.
I'm sure you know, because I'll behonest with you, it's like everybody
interviews with their best, best face on.
(29:00):
Right.
Um, because when we, when we'reinterviewing, we understand it's actually
a lot more than their experience.
It's a lot more than their knowledge.
Um, there's, there's the,there's a care factor.
That's very hard to interview for.
Yeah.
Or you can ask them like, Hey, if,if one of your colleagues needs help,
(29:21):
are you ready to go and help them?
Everybody's gonna answer yes.
Right.
So I, I, I think that what, what we reallylike to do is like when, when we kind of
like ask all the tough questions, likedepending on the role is they've got, you
know, certain requirements, but once thatpasses, we, we just keep our eyes on them.
It's a bit of a trial and error for us.
You know, are they gonna last, arethey gonna, are they, are they gonna,
(29:44):
um, really step up to the platewhen things get really difficult?
And so there's a little bit ofscrutinizing that happens and, and
we just try to kind of, uh, give theman opportunity too because it's, it's
really difficult, you know, let'ssay as a project manager jump at a
situation and start managing five jobsand, and really have your care factor
like at a hundred percent, right?
(30:05):
But then if, if.
If you do extra little things, thoseare always really good indicators.
You know, like, um, if there was a leakon the weekend and then, you know, he
ran to the site and really tarp, tarpedthe roof himself, it's like, okay,
like, like our eyes, our eyes are onhim on in a good way like that, that's,
that's really honorable to do, right?
So I think, I think that there's goingthrough the process, but really trying
(30:28):
to keep our eyes on that care factor.
Because you know, it, it you, ifyou've got two project managers, one
with two years experience and onewith 20 years experience, if the guy
with 20 years experience doesn't careand the guy with two years experience
cares, the guy with, with, with thetwo years experience is gonna outshine
him all day, every day, at least inour business where it's really easy to
(30:49):
sweep problems under the rug and thenat the end be like, oh, I didn't know.
Um.
But, but when you have that carefactor, it becomes very obvious in how
the clients speak about you, how ourour vendors speak about you and, and
then how the staff speaks about you.
So when you kind of create thisorganizational culture of, um, teamwork
(31:11):
and, and, and being pleasant around,um, it kind of exponentially creates
a certain energy that just bouncesaway people who don't fit that mold.
Sure.
So man, now, so now like we're,we're, that's where we're at.
Like we actually had to let go of somebodythat was here for about two months
'cause he just didn't fit that mold.
He just, yeah.
(31:32):
I think that's, uh, you know, probablyone of the, the hardest things, I
mean, just like you said, I mean,everyone's gonna show up, you know, with
their game face on and, and can, youknow, do an, you know, an hour or two
interview and, you know, make it seemlike everything's all fine and dandy.
But you know what, what I've, what I'vebeen hearing, you know, some, some more
people started doing is like, really like.
You know, having those people and, and,and, and like paying them for, you know,
a day or a couple days where they actuallycome and like work, you know, hand in
(31:55):
hand, kind of go out to the job site.
Like they're, you know, literallygoing through, you know, the motions
of, of, of, of what it would be like.
And then it's like at the end of the day.
What do they really like?
Is that someone you, you know, you wantto go, you know, spend more time with,
go grab a bite, grab a drink with them?
Like, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's,it's a lot harder to kind of fake it
after a long day of, of, of hard workand, you know, kind of being there
(32:16):
at the, at the end of the day withsomeone that you really wanna be with.
I mean, that's, that's how you knowthey, they, they would be a good fit and.
You know, get, get along withpeople versus, you know, just kind
of a one or two hour interviewis, is, is a little bit tricky.
But, you know, I think also just likeinvolving the team, you know, even in
the interview process, like here we, youknow, we, we bring in multiple people.
It's kind of more like thissort of this final, you know,
in-person group interview.
(32:37):
Where, you know, at the end of theday, I, I, I know I can get really
excited about someone on, on paper.
They got all the right things, you know,they're saying the right things, doing the
right things, got the right experience,you know, but at the end of the day,
like, you know, that that can be blinding,you know, and it can cause you to sort
of, man, I, I really want this to work.
And you just sort of manifestit, like, yeah, this is the right
person, you know, but then you gotsomeone next to you who's like, you.
(32:58):
I kind of picked up on these things and,and maybe like the energy wasn't there.
Like, you know, when you ask 'em someof the, the harder questions, you know,
they, they start to kind of reveal thingsthat, that might actually be problematic.
And, you know, I may have missedover that, but luckily, you know,
I had a couple other people inthe room that can point 'em out.
It's like, you know, you're right.
You know, glad glad you brought that up.
And, you know, I think just kind ofthat, that, that, that collaborating
with the team, you know, because theyknow what the culture's all about,
(33:21):
they know what they're looking for,you know, they can sort of help, help
try to weed out those people who mightnot really be that, that good fit.
That's it.
That's it.
And, and
it's so important because especiallyif you, if you think about the
services industry and, and, you know,I consider us being in the services
industry, the, the right people.
If all things are, are the same systems,processes, procedures, strategies,
(33:43):
but you have, um, you know, in onebatch, really strong organizational
culture, really strong team, andthen on, on, on another batch, uh,
mediocre, a team and mediocre culture.
The, the strong team could exponentiallygrow your company alone just because,
um, of the, of the people on this team.
(34:06):
Yeah.
So when I really, really understoodthat having the right people
on your team, naturally alonewill help you grow the company.
I mean, there's already allthe odds against us as is.
So it's like if I, I'm always lookingfor path of least resistance, right?
Like game, well, I call 'emgame changers, like items where.
Um, can just help me growbecause of whatever they are.
(34:29):
So, you know, I'm very, I, I hold ourorganizational culture very close, and
I'm very, I keep that really well guard,guarded to the point where, you know,
new people come in here, I'm alwaysasking about them, like, how do they
act here and how do they deal with here?
And, and, and then eventually youget to a point where you just got all
these really awesome people, you know?
Yeah.
So obviously, you know, you, you've,you've, you've been involved in, in a
(34:50):
lot of different companies and startupsand kind of have played that, that
entrepreneurial leader role for a while.
You know, when, when you think back,like, is there anything, like, if, if,
if you were to go start another businesstoday, like is there anything that,
like you, you wish you would've known,you know, at the beginning of these
other businesses that like you would putinto place, you know, moving forward?
Like what, what would you do differentlyor, or what do you think, like, you
(35:12):
know, for someone else who is starting uptoday, like what would you advise them?
To try to give themself thebest chance for success.
You know that, that's a tough question.
And it's funny, right?
Because I, I think about this all thetime, like ignorance is bliss, you
know, like, like, like going, reflectingback, it's just like, all I cared about
(35:33):
when I started was the, the end goal.
Creating a really cool company and.
I was so confident I was gonna do that.
And after going through basically hell andback multiple times, I was just, I always
reflect like, how was I so confident?
How did I not think aboutall of this in between?
(35:56):
And sometimes ignorance is bliss.
Where maybe had I thought about all thestruggles and challenges that were gonna
come, maybe, maybe I wouldn't do it.
I don't know.
I have no idea.
Um, but you know.
The odds were against us.
So like, it, it, it's hard for meto say what would I do differently,
because it all worked out really well.
(36:16):
Like, we started our first company with$50,000 and, and you know, we did a
million dollars our, our first year notknowing anything about construction.
And then maybe two or 3 million thesecond year, and then we were like
four or five in the third year.
And, and, but, um, we didn'tmake money for a really long
time and there was really hardlearning lessons along the way.
So.
(36:38):
I don't know if I woulddo anything differently.
However, um, what I would say is, youknow, some advice for somebody who's
really looking to grow and reallylooking to build their business.
Um, really you, you gotta get yourselfto a situation where you're building
the business and not working in it.
You can, you can work in it andbuild the business only for so long.
(36:59):
But eventually you need to put peoplewho are working in the business.
And what I mean by that is,um, okay, you got a couple
million dollars in, in revenue.
Now you can hire a project manager.
Maybe you're doing the sales, maybeyou're hiring a sales person, but
then you're going in to reallywork on the rest of the business.
So, um, really, uh, implementingsystems in processes in place
(37:20):
to start building that machine.
Because a real business is,is, is essentially a machine
where people can work.
Within this machine, and thenit runs itself without you.
Um, so it's funny, right?
Because not having constructionexperience forced me into that situation.
Whether I knew it was right orwrong, it didn't, it didn't matter.
(37:41):
Like I was forced to be like, okay, well,like, let me, you know, let me figure out
our systems, let me figure out processesbecause that's the only thing I could do.
I couldn't lift the hammer.
I couldn't really even manage contractors.
Um.
So, so it naturally put me in thatsituation 'cause I had a lack of
construction knowledge and then itcome from the construction world.
So I, I, I already had an outsidethe box kind of point of view.
(38:04):
So building that business, uh, creatingautomated, um, lead systems, creating,
uh, a formalized sales process, you know,right down to the point of, uh, step one,
step two, step three, step four, this iswhat you say, you know, uh, more or less.
And, and doing that all across thedifferent parts of the business.
(38:26):
The next part, working to youroperations really define what
that project manager role is.
What's their roles and responsibilities?
What metrics are you gonna hold themaccountable for and that sort of thing.
So, uh, I guess my best advice isreally fast track your ability to
build the business and not work in it.
Yeah, no, that's great.
And what about like, personally,emotionally, mentally?
(38:50):
How, how have you weathered the, the,the rollercoaster, you know, of being
an entrepreneur and, and, and, you know,kind of what, what's that toll that's
it's taken on you and how do you kind ofmanage those, those those tough times?
You know?
Yeah.
That, that's a really good question.
So, like 2011, 2012, I remember wakingup in the morning going for a shower and
(39:12):
it was just like I had a panic attack andI've never had a panic attack actually.
Uh.
I've generally been always a pretty strongindividual, um, mentally, physically, but.
Especially, you know, I say in 2011,we're one year in, we didn't really have
enough resources to hire project managers.
(39:33):
So I was the project managerand, you know, you're, you're
taking a shower, you're waking upin the morning, what do you do?
You think about all the things yougotta deal with that day and all
the troubleshooting you gotta do.
So, so I had a bit of a panic attackand it was like, um, nothing serious,
just a little, he hyperventilating.
Then I remember askingme like, what is this?
Like this is weakness.
(39:54):
So like I, um, I always, my wholelife I worked out in the gym, but
maybe for like that first year ortwo wasn't as consistent or as good
because there's just so much happening.
So I ended up, um, getting, uh,really prioritizing my physical
fitness and uh, also making sureI'm, I was eating really well.
(40:16):
So trying to stay away fromprocessed foods, trying to eat
as much whole foods as possible.
Um, and then honestly like gettingsome emotional support from my family.
To be honest with you, it's gonnasound silly, but I used to call my
mom, you know, 'cause I've, I startedmy first company in Vancouver.
It's like a six hour flight.
(40:36):
It's like.
Uh, Virginia on one side, andthen, um, you know, Seattle on
the other kind of thing like that,that's kind of like the distance.
So I flew all the way to Vancouver onthe west coast to start my company, and
I remember I called my mom and I'd belike, I don't know if I could do this.
Like, I feel like a failure.
And just kind of going throughthe emotional support with her.
I was 26, 27 at the time.
(40:57):
So, um, you know, it's, it's,it's not as sad as maybe a
40-year-old calling his mom, but.
So emotional support with familyand really trying to push through.
I, I was always thatoverachiever in my life.
I have younger brothers, um, you know,I was always the overachiever in sports,
in school, in business, always had theselike small little companies that, that,
(41:19):
you know, aren't, aren't necessarily supersuccessful, but you know, when you're,
you're making a few thousand bucks as ateenager, you know, it went a long way.
But, and, and I thinkthat's really what, what.
Scared me was that, my God, amI gonna come back as a failure?
And, and so, um, emotional support,physical fitness, eating really good food.
I think it's a must.
Uh, yeah.
You, you're not, you're not gonna buildanything extraordinary as fast as I did.
(41:43):
If, if you're outta shape, if you'renot healthy, if, if you're not
mentally strong enough to deal with it.
Yeah,
no, that's all, all, all great advice.
You know, look, I, you know,I, I, I think again, it's, uh.
Being an entrepreneur is not, notfor the faint at heart by any means.
You know, it's, it's, it's tough andit, it can be, you know, mentally and
physically, you know, taxing on, on,on, on you and your body and your brain.
(42:04):
And, you know, I think people,uh, you know, who can sort of find
those other avenues to, you know,kind of relieve stress, you know,
help them kind of clear the mind.
Even taking, you know, vacations andtime away, you know, from, from time to
time can really help kind of clear, youknow, your, your, you're sort of being
overwhelmed in the day to day of, ofwhat is building a construction business.
(42:25):
I mean, and like you said,it's a lot of firefighting.
I mean, it's just par for the course here.
You know, you gotta figure out though, howdo you keep yourself, you know, focused.
Engaged and showing up every day readyto, you know, to conquer the day.
And I think that's where, you know, alot of the, the, the mental toll that,
that, that, that we feel as entrepreneurscan, can really weigh you down if you
don't find those other avenues to, tokeep yourself sane and, and, uh, you
(42:47):
know, kind of fit and, and, and, andable to process information in a, in a
little bit more systematic way versuskinda letting it overwhelm you and just
sort of flood the, flood the brain there.
It, it, it can, it can be really tough.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and I think, you know, toadd to what I was saying too,
I, I found, um, inspiration inreal people doing real things.
So just like reading a lot of books,you know, uh, from Steve Jobs to Arnold
(43:11):
Schwarzenegger, to Elon Musk, and, um,even, even 50 cent, you know, like, just,
just kind of, I, I always found, um.
I guess motivation from reading aboutreal people and the extraordinary events
and, and, and achievements that they had.
And I always said to myself, well, youknow, if this regular guy can do it,
(43:32):
so can I. And, and that kind of pumpedme up a little bit and got me excited.
Man, I, uh, said the exact same thingto myself when I started my first
software company, so I totally get it.
It's, uh, you know, it's, and, and, andagain, like studying those who have been
before us, and you know, there reallyis like, there's, there's no reason that
they should be able to succeed, that youcouldn't, if you devote yourself and you
(43:52):
put, you know, put, put, put your focusand energy towards making that happen.
I mean, you know, I believe we canmanifest our own, our own success
and create our own destiny, so.
For sure.
So I'm, I'm, I'm curious, you know,kind of just in, in closing here, I
mean, like what's, what's your, what,what's your larger plan, larger vision?
Like where do you wanna see, youknow, your, your, your business in
the next, you know, five, 10 years?
(44:12):
Like, what, what do, whatdo you wanna do here?
Yeah, that, that's a, that's a really good
one.
Uh, good question.
Um, 'cause it all dependson the day you ask me.
Uh, I think I've settled on, I'm lookingto, um, we just bought a company about
two months ago and it has been, um,a little bit challenging, just kind
of like integrating them and gettingthem doing things the way we do them,
(44:36):
but I'm sure we'll figure it out.
Um, but I think we wanna grow throughacquisitions, um, maybe potentially
get to about a hundred million dollars.
Between a few of the companies right now,um, we're at like, you know, just over
30 million, but that's not fair 'causeone of them does 21 million or 21, 22.
So, but grow through acquisitionsand maybe get to a hundred
(44:58):
million dollars, but also, um.
For my little group, my little, wehave a few partners in the company, um,
that invest in real estate as well too.
And, and we're looking to get to about ahundred units in, in, in a few years where
we roughly got about 60 in our pipeline.
So a hundred million dollarsin revenue, a hundred units.
Um, you know, we should be there in aboutfive years and five to 10 years, and.
(45:20):
I don't know, man.
I, I wanna have fun too, right?
Like my days of suffering are just done.
So if something is gonna be like,super stressful or something,
you know, I take pride.
Um, I, I work really hard, but, uh,I'm hung for dinner every day and,
and, uh, I, I invest in my daughters,um, extracurricular, so driving them
to their gymnastics, to their soccer,and really being a big part of that.
(45:43):
So, um, I wanna do all thosethings, but honestly, it's.
I'm not growing past where Igot today and, and, and I got
to keep doing what I'm doing.
I'd be happy with that as well too.
Nice.
I'm, I'm curious, so the, the acquisitionyou just made, I mean, like is there a
particular profile or type of company,you know, a type of revenue that, that
you see as like the best opportunityto, to, to grow through acquisition?
(46:07):
Yeah, so when we, we like reachedout to like maybe a thousand
companies and I think had, um.
Conversation with maybe a hundred of them.
And then I stepped in for about 20 ofthem and we were looking for basically
the exact same model as my company is now.
Maybe, maybe the processes are a littlebit different or the terminology's
(46:29):
different, but they had to, um, atleast do four fi $5 million in revenue.
They had to have, uh, they were truedesign build companies, so they had
architectural designers on staff.
They had.
Material selections or interior designerson staff and ops team, the sales team
because, um, the reason why we wanted togrow through acquisition is just, I was
(46:50):
just done with startups, you know, likestarting a brand, you know, um, recruiting
people and going through trial and error.
I didn't want any of that.
I wanted to take all the great thingsthat we have and implement it on
something very similar to what we areand just, um, scale them from there.
So a true design build company, acompany that really ran off systems
(47:12):
and processes, and, um, a company thatwas doing at least four or $5 million.
So this one was, was doing abouteight, somewhere between eight,
8.5, and I think we can get them to10 within the first year, and then
hopefully 15 in the next couple years.
Nice.
It sounds like a great strategy, man.
It's, uh, you know, you're kindof taking the, the, the playbook
from a lot of the, you know, theprivate equity of the investors.
(47:32):
I mean, we definitely see a lot ofconsolidation, you know, rollups in
the industry, but, you know, I'm, I'mall about the, the strategic, you know,
if you can do it and, you know, kindof keep, keep true to yourself and
your own, you know, core values, yourown mission vision, kind of take that
culture and, and be able to expand itto others and bring on the right teams.
I mean, you know, there's that.
See no reason why you can'tbe very successful doing that.
(47:53):
Yeah, we're really excited.
Hey, we'll give it a shot.
And it just feels like kind oflike the next evolution and, um,
we'll, we'll, we'll see wherewe go, where we go from there.
We've got, um, yeah, uh, one of ourreally strong partners down there
leading the charge and, um, you know,we'll, we'll have a little bit of fun
doing it and if it works out great.
If not, it's not gonnabe the end of the world
(48:13):
area.
Awesome, man.
Well, Farris, look, I, I reallyappreciate you coming on sharing a
little bit about your story, kind of thebackground, some of the challenges you've,
you've had and you know, how you'recontinuing to build that great team.
You know, being able to, to,to also kind of grow into the
future and your plans there.
You know, just wanna thank youfor, for taking the time and
for sharing that with everyone.
Really appreciate it.
Yeah.
Sounds good Erica.
Thanks for having me on here.
(48:34):
It's, I really enjoyed it.
Um, and yeah, I, I am really impressedwith what you're doing, um, with
Job Tread and, you know, keep it up.
It's, I'm sure it's not really easyand, you know, I, I, I wish you
success here in the near future.
Awesome.
Appreciate it.
Thanks
son.
See it.
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