June 11, 2025 • 58 mins
Meet Wilbur Jennings, owner of Wilbur Design + Construct in Marquette, Michigan. Jennings started in the trades at the age of 13, and developed a passion for building. He went on to earn a degree in construction management, and founded Wilbur Design while “flying by the seat of my pants.” Over the course of his journey in leadership he incorporated a mission and vision; clear systems and processes; an intentional company culture; and new ways to look at his financials. Here, Jennings shares the most impactful lessons learned in the past ten years.
In this episode, you will learn:
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How to define and use a mission, vision, and values to steer your business
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The critical hiring lesson that helped Wilbur build a more accountable and trustworthy team
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The industry resources he’s found most helpful
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The job costing systems that have helped him maintain the right level of profitability
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What he would do differently if he were starting the business again today
Listen to the episode to learn more.
Resources:
Learn more about Wilbur Design + Construct here.
Own a construction company and want to share your story? Apply to be on an upcoming episode of Builder Stories at https://www.builderstories.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric (00:00):
Welcome to the podcast where we take a deep dive into the stories
behind construction business leaders.
We will share how they got started,how they found success, and the
lessons learned along the way.
I'm your host, Eric Fortenberry.
Welcome to Builder Stories.
Welcome back everybody.
I'm excited.
(00:20):
I have Wilbur Jennings.
With Wilbur Design and Construct.
They're located in Marquette,Michigan, their design build firm
out there doing really great work.
Really excited to have you on the show.
Welcome to Builder Stories, Wilbur.
Oh, thank
Wilbur (00:33):
you Eric.
I appreciate it.
Eric (00:35):
Yeah, so why don't we kick it off here.
Give us, you know, a littlebit of background, who you are,
how'd you get into construction,you know, what do you guys do?
Wilbur (00:42):
Yeah, so I got into construction at a really young age.
I had a tool belt on at the age of like13, uh, working trades with my uncles and.
They, they, they let me go in and messup a whole bunch of stuff and my, my
grandpa owned real estate, so he hadall these apartments and he'd just
like, yeah, go install that floor.
Go put that, you know, that, you know,do some framing over there, some drywall.
(01:04):
And I was doing stuff at such a youngage and making so many mistakes early
on, and I just had the opportunitythen that it just kind of grew
into a passion over the years.
And, um, I moved away from it alittle bit, but then jumped back in.
But yeah, I started at a really youngage, the passion for building and.
And so that's, that's kind of whereI ended up now, but uh, that's
Eric (01:24):
awesome.
I love it.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So what, what led you to, to start,start Wilbur Design and construct?
Wilbur (01:31):
Uh, yeah, so I, we actually, um, my wife and I decided to get
outta commercial construction.
So we both have backgroundsin commercial construction.
We have construction management degrees.
I'm mine's from Northern MichiganUniversity right here in my hometown.
Uh, she's from Minot, North Dakota.
So she went to NDSU and weactually met on an internship.
(01:54):
In Texas, and then we ended up movingto North Dakota and then moving to
Marquette, and we finally started abusiness with the end goal of being
a commercial construction company.
Well, when we got here, itwas, it was really tough.
Uh, the commercial market was, was,was, uh, there wasn't a lot of demand.
There was.
It was, it was over floodedwith, with contractors.
(02:17):
The margins were really low.
And I'm like, well man, if we'regonna get into this, I better figure
out something to do in betweenjobs because I'm not gonna have a
job and we're gonna go broke here.
So I'm like, I'll just get abuilder's license, no problem.
I had a degree in constructionmanagement, you know, um, I'll just
go take the test and get a builder'slicense and start doing some remodeling.
'cause I had all thisbackground, so I went.
(02:38):
I go to try to take the Builders toBuilders exam, and they're like, well,
you need to take 60 hours of training.
You need to get this certificatebefore you can take the exam.
And it's like, I have a fouryear construction management
degree that doesn't qualify me.
They're just like, not with your program.
It's like, huh?
So a quick tangent.
We actually went back to NorthernMichigan University and had a
conversation with the professors.
And now their program, when theygraduate, they can walk right into
(03:02):
the, that office and take that test.
And they don't have to doany additional training, but
Eric (03:05):
that's awesome.
Wilbur (03:06):
I, I didn't get that luxury then, so, uh, but yeah, so I just took the exam,
got my builder's license, uh, and thenwe started doing little small projects.
Like I think my first projectwas a basement remodel for like.
$10,000 or something.
I remember our first year looking atthe average job cost or the average
job size for our first year, and itwas like $5,600 or something like that.
(03:31):
Just some like really low number.
And, uh, to think about where we aretoday is like incredible, like the,
the, the amount that we've grown.
But, uh, that's where it started.
We started as like.
The intention of just filling inwork and then the demand just kind
of grew and we're like, okay, wellthis is more profitable than what we
were anticipating con commercial tobe, and there's a huge demand for it.
(03:55):
So we just stayed in the residentiallane and then we just kind of built
one thing after another off of that.
And so we've, here, we find ourselves inthis niche now and don't have any desire
to get into commercials construction.
So, yeah.
Nice.
And and how many, howmany years ago was that?
That was 10 years.
We, we were celebrating 10 years, uh, thisyear, January 1st, we celebrated 10 years.
Eric (04:15):
Awesome.
Congrats.
Yeah.
So I'm curious, you know, those, those,those first jobs, you know, what,
what were they and, and how did youget your first, your first customers?
Wilbur (04:22):
Oh, man.
My, my, my first customer was a friend.
You know, that was the first, thiswas the first two people you hit.
Right?
Friends and family.
And, you know, we just started,started our job and, uh, you
know, we, we were moving comfrom com commercial construction.
We were making lots of money there.
And then we moved to Marette.
Everybody's like, don't start a business.
You're gonna, it's gonna,it's gonna go broke.
You're, you know, it's gonna fail.
(04:43):
And we're just like,we're doing it anyways.
'cause we want the freedom andthe flexibility and we come in
and, and you know, that first jobwas like a, a basement remodel.
And then I think my second job was like,you know, like a deck or something.
And I just, it was just a bunchof these little jobs I. That
first year we made $25,000.
Wow.
I was like, success,you know, we made money.
(05:06):
We didn't lose money.
So, uh, and, and, and, and that was it.
So it, it was a huge pay cut, but itwas like this, like this, this weight
like lifted off You like, I can do this,
Eric (05:17):
you know,
Wilbur (05:18):
there's, there's direction here.
Right.
I can, I can make it, I can make it work.
That was it.
And so all those jobs at firstyear is like, there's just like
little bathrooms, updates, youknow, I think we did a kitchen.
Um, and then the following yeara breakthrough for us was we
got a, uh, an insurance joband it was like a $60,000 job.
(05:39):
And it was, this was like.
This is, this is like big.
Okay.
You know, and, and, and I didn't reallyknow how to attack it, like estimating.
And so we completely underbid it.
We just went off what theinsurance said they would pay,
and we like, barely broke even.
And I'm like, okay, well notgonna stay in business doing that.
(06:01):
But we learned a lot.
Right.
And it seemed like these, thesecatalyst projects through the years.
Are like that, right?
You, you don't maybe knowexactly how to approach 'em.
You're, you're kind of taking a chanceon things and maybe you don't make a
bunch of money, but you get all thisexperience and that lets you, you know,
kind of sets paves the way it sets thatfoundation for the growth in that new
(06:23):
category that you're find yourself in.
Eric (06:25):
So what, what's the, what's the team look like today that you've got in place?
Wilbur (06:28):
So, the team today, um, we've got an estimator and a drafter.
We've got a project manager, we'vegot a field crew, we've got a
marketing director and a designer.
Okay.
Eric (06:40):
Yeah.
So how many people is that total?
Wilbur (06:42):
Uh, we, there's eight of us total.
Eric (06:44):
That's great.
I'm, I'm curious, who wasyour, your first hire?
You know, I, I assume it was kind ofjust you and your wife for a while.
Wilbur (06:51):
It was, and not even really my wife.
'cause we decided to not juststart a business but have a baby
the first year and a new housethat was completely dilapidated.
'cause we're like, oh, we know howto remodel so we'll remodel a house,
start a business, and have a baby.
Wow.
I do not recommend that to anybody.
So, uh, in your first year, so.
But, uh, yeah, early on it was just me.
(07:14):
I was out there swinging the hammer.
You know, I still love,you know, doing work.
Um, but my wife keeps me plenty busywith home projects, so I, I get,
you know, I get in the field there.
But, uh, early projects, it was me andthen I, I hired a friend, you know, and
then my next hire was my cousin and,you know, and then I didn't really know
how to like, um, I didn't have, I didn'thave like a process for interviewing
(07:37):
or a process for trying to find new.
People for our team, and I didn'treally even know how to be a, like a
good leader or a boss at that time.
You know, I was just kind of likeflying by the seat of my pants.
I didn't have any reallylike mentors or anything.
I was just kind of, kind of in myown mind just kind of paving my own
path and looking back now, I'm justlike, if I knew now or if I knew
(08:00):
then what I know now, I would'veapproached it completely different.
Eric (08:04):
That's, that's, that's, uh, where I hear a lot of people start and, you
know, you, you kind of, you're justlearning trial by fire, continuing
to build and, you know, jobs get, youknow, bigger over time can kind of get
more confident taking on larger andlarger scopes, you know, eventually
need to keep building out the team.
So it's, you know.
That's the common path.
You know, every entrepreneur justcharges and, uh, you know, charges
(08:24):
ahead and charts their own path there.
Wilbur (08:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
Eric (08:28):
Pass.
So, you know, you, you've, you've kindof talked about, you know, a couple
multiple projects that were verychallenging for you from a mm-hmm.
From a, a financial standpoint.
I'm, I'm curious, you know, what, howhas your process, your, your estimating
process, how has that evolved since then?
Like, how, how do you make sure, youknow, today when you're bidding on a job
that, that you're not making those samemistakes that you were making before?
Wilbur (08:50):
Oh, yeah.
That's a great question.
Uh.
So the, the point where, um, yourealize that your company needs to
make money just as much as you needto, you know, survive and, and,
and have a living off your company.
Um, that was a big learning point for me,you know, and that concept just kind of
like never was brought to my attention.
(09:11):
I don't, I don't come from abackground of, you know, entrepreneur
in my family, and so it was kindof a new learning experience.
But when I. Um, and when I actuallyjoined the, uh, 20 club, um, that's
when it really kind of turned around.
And that was just onlylike a few years ago.
And so we had made some profitsup until then, but really diving
(09:33):
into the numbers and dissecting thefinancial part of it really helped.
And, uh, and we had been using.
Project management software before that.
Um, but at that time we also hadmade the switch to job tread too.
And because of that feature of, youknow, being able to break down the
financials a lot better, and so that wasit, like, just like the education on it.
(09:55):
Like people are just like, yeah,you, you know, you, your company's
supposed to make money too.
It's like, oh, um, yeah, I, I guess so.
They're like, if you wanna like turnaround and sell your company someday,
you need to make your company profitable.
You just can't have a. Youknow, it making you money.
It like needs to be itsown entity in a sense.
Right?
And so, so that's when wereally started focusing on like
(10:17):
margins and, um, job costing.
And job costing wasn'teven a thing for us.
For the first five years ofa business we didn't like, I
didn't even know what it was.
And now it's like every single project wejob costs and we have a, we have a project
debrief on with our whole team thatwas, that was involved in the project.
So right from the beginningstages of estimating or even that
(10:38):
consultation, that whole projectexperience, you know, for our clients.
And then for the, the way weassemble the project, it's,
it's very process driven Now.
Everything we do has a process, be behindit and, uh, you know, not, not to try
to plug, plug job, try again, but likewe've built our processes in that system
(11:00):
so we don't even have to think about it.
We're taking the, essentially taking thethinking out of the, of the day-to-day
operations and putting it into checklistsand to-dos and, and, and, and schedules.
And so we can just, literally, our projectmanager can walk out to a project and say,
okay, well this, this trade is complete.
And now we've got, uh, you know,the drywall and painting evaluation.
(11:21):
It's a 20 point checklist.
And he literally just goes through,through there like, like, you
know, an oil change and justcheck, check, check, check, check.
And ever since we implemented processes.
Our margins go up.
Job costing got easier, our projectsget shorter, smoother client client
happiness is through the roof.
Um, in the last year and ahalf, we haven't had a project
(11:43):
go over budget or over time.
Not one.
You know, that's awesome.
Unless it was homeowner driven, like,you know, we, we get a lot of that.
Like we had one product, literallythe homeowner was like, I'd like
to make a change order and do awhole nother bathroom addition or
a whole nother bathroom renovation.
So $60,000 addition to their originalscope mid-project, and we were
(12:06):
able to complete that with justan additional two weeks of time.
'cause we weaved itright into the schedule.
So, but we wouldn't be able to dothat without processes in place.
Eric (12:14):
Yeah.
That's, that's so huge, man.
And, and, and you know, again, I,I hear the same story a lot where,
you know, the, the notion of jobcosting is just a foreign concept.
Like nobody understands it.
And I, I'm a little surprised.
I mean, did they, I guess, I guess.
Do they not teach that in the,in the construction management
course, or is it Oh, they do.
Wilbur (12:31):
It wasn't them.
It was me.
Yeah.
Okay.
I was very resistant to it.
And my wife had been telling me for yearsand years, and then our CPA's like, yeah,
you should probably start job costing.
And, and I'm like, yeah.
You know, and then actuallywhen, uh, we started job costing,
my wife's like I told you.
Yeah.
See, I've been tellingyou this for a long time.
Right.
And I'm just,
Eric (12:49):
yeah, you're right.
You're right.
No, it's, it's, it is, it's,it's so important and you
know, it, it really can make.
All the difference in the world.
You know, being able to, to, tomake sure that you're hitting
those target profit margins.
Yeah, absolutely.
It sounds like really, you know, joiningthose, the, the NAHB 20 club, I mean, was
that kind of like your first real sortof, when you surrounded yourself by, you
(13:10):
know, a bunch of other builders who were,you know, probably farther along, maybe
they had some of these systems processes,like they, you know, was that kind of
like that, that, that turning point whereyou, you really got exposed to, hey,
maybe there's a better way that, youknow, I need to start learning from them.
Wilbur (13:24):
Um, yeah, a lot of that and, uh, you know, even moving into that 20 club.
Um, I was And
Eric (13:30):
can you tell us, tell us a little bit for, for those who don't know,
what, what, what are the 20 clubs?
Wilbur (13:34):
So the 20 clubs are, um, little offshoots of National
Association of Home Builders.
So essentially it's, they're,they're like-minded people.
They're in non-competing areas around thecountry, and they're grouped together.
Um, so you can talk about everythingbusiness, you know, um, and you
know, all your finances, logistics,client relations, hiring, and
(13:57):
you know, all your processes.
And, and also you get really goodpersonal relationship with everybody.
And then, um, with our 20 club, we knowa lot of times we're bringing family to
the, you know, the, we have two in-personmeetings per year, and they're usually,
you know, at a, at a host city site.
Um, but we do monthly zoom meetingsand we talk about everything business.
(14:19):
And so, and then, you know, and thenwe've got like a text thread, so
where if anything pops up day-to-daystuff, it's like literally like
I can have an answer like from 10guys on any kind of issue that I'm
going through right now and Right.
And that kind of, that kind of quickaccess to that knowledge is invaluable.
And, uh, but yeah, there'sa, there's a process.
You, um, you apply to get in andthen you go through the interviewing
(14:42):
process and then, you know, thenyou're accepted into a club.
And, um, of course, you know, there'sdues that are involved and there's
a, there's definitely a financialobligation that comes with it because,
um, you know, there's, there's alot of value that comes out of it.
So if you're not willing toput the financial, um, you
know, the financial, uh.
Uh, investment.
(15:02):
Investment into it.
Yeah.
Then, then, then, then reallyit's not a, a good place.
Right.
So, uh, but yeah, so I've, I'vegot a lot of experience from them,
but when I first joined, I almostfelt like, am I, am I qualified?
Right?
I was like, do I have enoughexperience to bring the table?
And, you know, just the storiesthat I was able to tell.
(15:24):
And then, you know, some of the, someof the things that the, some of the.
Um, some of the problems thatwe worked through, those were
helpful to other people too.
And so that was nice to hearand get feedback from them.
Um, but as far as like gettingcontrol of the finances, that
was a, that was a big thing.
'cause they're like, well, first thing waslike you had to like, open up your books.
(15:45):
Like, here we go.
You get to see everything.
And there's like, why are you doingthat and why are you doing that?
And why aren't you making money here?
It is like, and why isyour profit margin so low?
And why is your, you know, and so they'lllike, they'll like, call you out, right?
So it's accountability andthey keep you in check.
And so, um, and then they also help youput systems into place, you know, and, and
(16:08):
the, the 20 club that I'm in where there's15 members, the 20 club means that you
can have PUP two 20 members in that club.
And right now, I actually think there's.
Um, there might be, uh, they mightbe trying to start another remodeling
20 club, because I think there's onlyfive of 'em in the country, which
means there's about seven between75 and we'll say 125 people that
(16:29):
are in these remodeling 20 clubs.
And then there's a bunch ofbuilder 20 clubs as well.
Uh, but we're a part ofa remodeling 20 club.
Awesome, because everybody in ourclub does remodeling and some of
them do design and remodeling.
Some of 'em actually dabble incommercial a little bit, and
some of them do spec homes and.
Some, you know, some custom home building.
(16:49):
Some of 'em are just des adesigner that do remodeling.
Uh, so we have a good group of guys,but we all kind of have, um, a similar
revenue and we all have similarinterests and we're in non-competing
markets so we can share everything.
Um, and it's nice to see, you know, whatguys out on the east coast too versus,
you know, the west coast and um, and downin Texas, you know, and so, you know, um.
(17:13):
Uh, where, where, where are you?
You're down in Texas Summer, right?
Are you guys in Austin?
Eric (17:17):
Uh, we're in Dallas.
Dallas, Texas.
You're
Wilbur (17:19):
in Dallas?
That's right.
Okay.
So one of our members, he's in Austin.
You know, it's just south of you,so, um, but uh, yeah, it's nice to
get these different, you know, um.
Well, it's nice to see that everybody'sgot the same problem everywhere else.
Yeah.
And we're all kind of focused on, onthat, but it's, but it's also nice to
see the different demographics, um,you know, the different demands in the
(17:40):
market, how things are fluctuating and,uh, but yeah, for the most part we're
all going through the same problems.
I.
Eric (17:47):
So I'm, I'm curious, you know, again, you, you started off, you know,
wearing all the hats, you know, sellingthe jobs, you know, do, doing the work
with the tool belt on, like, you know,how has your role evolved and, and
like, what do you focus on day to day?
You know, in, in, in, in today's,you know, 10-year-old business?
Wilbur (18:03):
Yeah.
Um, well, I still like to keep my hatin the finances, so I do a lot of the,
um, a lot of the bookkeeping still, and.
Just kind of like the overalldirection of, of, of that.
So, I mean, we have our CPA and they helpwith a bunch of stuff and, and we have a,
a quarterly management meeting with them.
But, um, but yeah, doing WIP reportsand I like to keep my head in the
(18:26):
numbers right and just kind of knowthat we're, that we're okay there and
that we're, we're tar, we're trackingand we're staying on budgets, right.
So it's another thing.
Budgets never had a budgetuntil like four years ago.
Right.
And didn't even know the concept really.
I'm just like, okay.
Um, so.
Making sure that we're stayingon budget and then, you know, um,
(18:46):
really having the company vision.
You know, what I've found over the lastfew years is that when you're trying to
onboard and build this team of A players,you need to have a company vision.
You have to have, Hey, this is thedirection we're going and this is how
we're gonna get here, and this is whatthe organization's gonna look like.
And then that instills confidence in yourteam to say, Hey, you know what, this.
(19:08):
Where we're going somewhere and I can jumpon board this and I can have a long-term
investment of my career in this company.
And so that's really important.
So, um, earlier on we, you know, thisis, this is probably five years ago.
We sat down, we createda mission statement.
We created our commitments to ourclients and to our team, and we
spent a whole day working together.
And that was fantastic.
(19:29):
It brought us closer together as a team.
And so to this day, we continually.
You know, use those commitmentsin our mission to, um, help us
with the direction of the company.
And so, um, I focus on that a lot.
Like, okay, where's our growth gonna be?
Like, what is our, you know,is our, is our target clients
still what it was from last year?
(19:51):
You know, do we, what do we wantour average job sizes to be?
Where do we want to go for that?
Like, and then being able tojust, um, help people work
through stress management because.
Uh, you know, project management andestimating, and those are demanding jobs.
And when we, when we pile awhole workload onto people,
that can be really overwhelming.
(20:12):
Um, you know, so, uh, you know, I, Ilike having flow charts, you know, the
Kanban charts, those are really nice.
'cause they, you know, they,they, they say immediately
where there's a bottleneck.
Yep.
And you can kind of work through that.
And so.
That's been really my main focus is,is making sure that our systems and
processes are working and then we'readapting and, uh, and we're growing.
(20:35):
So, you know, like, like right now,my main focus was, uh, changing the
way our process was from like ourinitial consultation and then it
went to design and then it went intoestimating, and then we went to, so
we had these different areas thatwe went through and we found that.
We were spending a lot of time in buildingpreliminary budgets for people to view
(21:00):
before they went into a design contract.
And it's like, well, sometimeswe'd have 20 hours into these
things and we wouldn't, wewouldn't, we wouldn't get the job.
And so we reformatted that.
I created a scope development agreement,and now what we do is we, we've
bundled a little portion of the design.
(21:20):
A portion of the scheduling and aportion of the estimate and captured
it into one more clear picture andsaid, Hey, this is what you can have
if you sign the scope developmentagreement, put down a retainer fee.
And it's like we have a likea $1,500 minimum fee on that.
And that applies towards thework that goes into that.
And so now after our initialcon consultation, we get paid
(21:42):
for everything after that.
And people are a lot more likelyto jump into something like that
because they're not committingto a full design and they're not
committing to construction either.
And so as soon as we did that,we signed like seven contracts
in like seven, like two weeks.
And everybody on our team just like,whoa, how are we gonna handle this?
I was like, okay, well let's lay this out.
And then, so that back to me,that's where my health is.
(22:03):
My job is to really kinda like,like layer this properly so we
can manage that, so we can managethat, that, that amount of work.
Uh, so yeah,
Eric (22:11):
that's, that's awesome.
I mean, again, it, you know,sometimes it sort of takes.
Takes stepping back to, to be ableto see the, the forest from the
trees there and like, you know, yeah.
Really understanding where yourbottlenecks were and where, I mean, again,
you, you're, you're sinking 20 hours intosomething that you know, goes nowhere.
I mean, yeah, you, you can't affordto do that, you know, too many times.
And so, you know, it was a great move tokind of, Hey, let's, let's get something
(22:34):
up front, gets some skin in the game.
Make sure you know, if, if,if it goes nowhere, at least
we got something here, but.
I think, I think it's, uh, you know,really smart of you to, to really be
able to look at that and understand theimpact on where your people are, are,
are spending time and are we kind ofprogressing this, this, this customer
along, you know, to, to hopefullyget them into the construction.
Yeah.
Wilbur (22:54):
Yeah.
One thing, and one thing we reallydeveloped as a, as a mentality
of like solution oriented.
So, um, you know, I've gotguys that work for us that.
I have come from companies wherethey've been beaten up, you know, not
physically, but like mentally and like.
Um, and, and I think the industry as awhole, like the construction industry
(23:15):
kind of has that like, you know, likethat tough guy, that rough guy that,
you know, you know, it's an environmentof like cuss words and, you know,
um, people get chewed out for things.
But we've created a, a culture aroundhere where that that's just not acceptable
and we don't treat each other that way.
And so, and when everybodymakes a mistake, it's.
(23:37):
Really comforting knowing that ifsomething happens, it doesn't matter
how much of a mistake it is, it couldbe a $5 mistake or a $5,000 mistake.
I know that our team's gonna come tome and say, Hey, here's the mistake.
Here's how we fixed it, and here'sthe solution moving forward that
we're gonna, that's gonna help usprevent it from happening again.
And when somebody comes to you withthat, how can you not be just like.
(24:01):
Like grateful.
Right.
That, wow.
Okay.
So you just in my mind, so you just savedus thousands of dollars down the road.
That's the only way I can think about it.
Rather than like, youjust cost me two grand.
Right.
And that's the, the mentalitywe've been driving for the last few
years and it was a game changer.
Now everybody's like, comesto me, they're excited.
Yeah, I made this mistake.
(24:22):
It was like 2,500 bucks, but, you know,um, this is, this is what I did to fix
it and here's how we changed the process.
I'm just like, awesome.
That's fantastic.
Yeah.
No, that's great.
It's, thanks.
Saving me $15,000 next year, you know?
Yeah.
So, yeah, so that, that, that was a bigchange for us too because, um, you know,
early on I didn't really know how toapproach, um, people that made mistakes.
(24:45):
I mean, 'cause I, I grew up inthe same atmosphere of atmosphere.
It's like you make a mistake andyou kinda get your hand slapped and.
You know, like that was stupid.
Why would you do something like that?
Right.
Eric (24:54):
Yeah.
Wilbur (24:54):
And, and shamed even to, to a point.
And so we just eliminated that altogether.
And, and now we have people like thatare more eager to make positive change.
They're not afraid to makemistakes, which gives them more
autonomy and, uh, more purpose.
'cause now they're not like,okay, hey, this is my task list.
This is the only thing that I can do.
(25:15):
So yeah,
Eric (25:16):
it's really opened
Wilbur (25:16):
us up.
Eric (25:17):
As a team.
Yeah, that's, that's awesome.
I'm, I'm also a big believer.
I'd, I'd rather people, you know,try something, fail, learn, improve,
you know, than to, to never try,you know, new things like, I mean,
that, that's, that's where innovationcomes, that's where growth and
improvement and strength comes is, is.
Through taking risk and through Yeah.
You know, trying things.
Now I'm not, you know, I'm not okay withlet's, you know, can't, can't make the
(25:38):
same mistake over and over and over again.
I mean, that's right.
You know, that ain't gonna work.
But as long as you've learned andyou understand, you know, what went
wrong and how you can prevent thatin the future, you know, I'm, I'm
totally cool with mistakes too.
I mean, you, you just, yeah.
You can't, can't beat someone up for, fortrying something that didn't work out and.
Or just, or, or making those mistakes.
I think that's, that's, that's howyou quickly drive them away Yeah.
(25:59):
Is if, if they're fearful everyday of making that mistake.
You know, earlier, uh, you, you mentionedthat, you know, you, you didn't have
an annual budget for the company.
Uh.
For the first four years orso, or first six years or
however long it was like, yeah.
I'm curious, like how, how did you realizethat you needed to start creating that?
Plan for the business because I,uh, I actually just yesterday we,
(26:21):
we we're working on our, uh, our,our second kind of playbook and we
published the, the Business Playbook.
And so I just, you know, we, we've startedworking on this financial playbook and
one of the main components of it is this.
Annual template, you know, this annualbudget template that, that any company can
use to really, you know, forecast theirrevenue, you know, their gross profit,
what all their overhead's gonna be, andultimately, you know, their net income.
(26:43):
And, and, and the goal is tohelp them to, to better sort of
financially manage their business.
So I'm, I'm curious, how did youfigure out that you needed that and
where did you start and how was that?
That process evolved for you.
Mm-hmm.
You're now using it as, youknow, I assume you're using it
as a regular tool to financiallymanage and track your progress.
Wilbur (27:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
That, that is somethingthat we use regularly now.
Uh, I think that, I think the, theturning point for me was, um, at, at
one point we had about 10 people onour staff, and we, uh, we had grown,
you know, uh, and I was only lookingat the revenue growth year after year.
And, and, you know, and on, on my.
(27:24):
Spreadsheets that I had built.
And, you know, we had a nice clear,you know, it was a nice even line
going up and like, this is great.
We're at a slow, steady growth.
And, um, and, but what I, but I, whatI saw was at a certain point we had,
you know, oh, 10 people on our staff,but I wasn't making any more money.
(27:45):
Like my salary didn't go up, thecompany wasn't making more money and
so we were growing revenue wise, butit was a flat line on net profit.
And I'm just like, well, if this is what'sgonna happen, then I'm gonna burn out
really quick and that's not sustainable.
And so, uh, we essentially said, okay,we need to get super efficient here.
(28:09):
And um, and a number of years ago,we made a pretty drastic shift and
we essentially kind of restarted.
And, uh, we, we rebranded andwe kind of restructured our
company culture and our team.
And, uh, and then we, then that'swhen we were like focused on like,
um, like not just growing the revenue,but growing the bottom line as well.
(28:32):
And because when you grow thatbottom line as well, it allows you
to incentivize your team better.
It allows you to offer, you know,better benefits and, and a better
working environment allows you tostay on top of, with the latest
technology, the, the newest equipment.
Um, you get to pick the best clients,you get to pick the best projects
(28:52):
because you're essentially the bestin your industry, in your area.
And that, and that was the goal for us.
We're just like, okay, hey, we,we wanna be the number one design
remodeling firm in the upper peninsula,and how do we get to that point?
So that's what our organizationalchart is now is the, the growth for
that is, okay, now we're not justgonna be in Marquette, but we're gonna
(29:14):
be in these other areas as well andhave potentially satellite offices.
How do we get to that?
Right?
You vis you vision plan for that,and then you work backwards and you
create your organizational chart.
So at this point now, because of thebudgeting back to the financing and
the revenue growth, we will know when.
And when it's time to hire anotherproject manager, well know when
(29:37):
it's time to hire our, um, youknow, uh, another designer, right?
And so, uh, or when we need to add onmore field crew or for a production
team, like, it helps you plan that and,and work it into place so you're not
just like reactionary to everything.
And sometimes that's unavoidable.
Sometimes, like right now we are ina little bit of a reactionary state
(30:00):
because we just sold seven projects.
In a matter of a couple weeks.
So like, okay, like production, we need,we're gonna need more people quickly.
Yep.
Right.
Um, so we're gonna be hiring,you know, some, some production
guys, but you know, so sometimesyou do have to make the pivot.
But for long-term planning, thatfinancial tool is so important, right?
Eric (30:20):
So you're talking about, you know, really kind of identifying,
you know, and, and kind of beingmore strategic about your growth.
And, and you needed to identify,you know, your target client,
you know, and, and your target.
Like tell, tell us a little bit moreabout like how do you decide, you know,
and figure out what is your ideal client?
Wilbur (30:38):
Mm-hmm.
So a while back, we brought ourteam together and we said, okay,
hey, we're gonna build a redflag list for clients, right?
And we're gonna use this list in ourbetting process for our clients, right?
Because we've met our clients.
I would say just as much as our clientsvet us, which I think is like the perfect.
You know, relationship to have when you'regoing into, because I mean, like, these
(31:00):
clients become like family members to us.
We're in their house every day and,and, and it's not like we're building
a new house where we don't haveto see 'em and interact with 'em.
Like they're living there and we'rebuilding an addition on their house, or
we're taking over their kitchen space andsetting up a little prep kitchen for 'em.
Um, so we're interacting withthem and their dogs and they're,
you know, their, their family.
So creating a red flaglist for clients early on.
(31:23):
Helped us define our, our target as well.
And then we realized also that, okay,so we wanna work with people that are
kind, we wanna be work people that, that,um, can make good decisions together.
As, as you know, as a couple.
Um, we wanna work with people that,um, you know, uh, are, have, have a
good idea of what they're doing and,and they've done some research, right?
(31:44):
They like, okay, hey, you, you're notjust like coming and saying, okay, hey,
we wanna do a full home remodel, and wehave zero idea where to start, right?
So, um, they're not ready for that.
That's a, that's a, that's a wholeprocess in itself is getting mentally
ready to go into a renovation.
Epic.
So we look at, you know, differentthings like that and that helps
(32:04):
us define our client there.
But then also for us, um, you know,our niche is that 250 to $600,000
project because we've got themanagement team in place for it.
So we have, um, we have the staff tomost efficiently manage those projects.
Now, smaller projects, like, you know,a $30,000 bathroom, they're great, but
(32:28):
we find that it's still a touch pointfor every single person in our team.
And so we're still, themanagement's high on that.
And so, uh, it's more efficientfor us to do larger products.
And then over time, what we've seen is.
That's just kind of naturally weededout some of the smaller projects too,
because somebody that maybe wantsa, a really quick bathroom update,
(32:51):
they don't wanna wait six or ninemonths, um, to start the project.
Sure.
And so, so we've kind of naturally kindof, you know, moved our target client into
that a little bit higher earning income.
They're typically, uh, families,uh, then with the, with the
(33:11):
parents aged from like 45 to 65.
And, um, and, uh, they've got, uh,extra, they've got extra income,
expendable income for projects.
They've been saving, they'vebeen planning for it.
Um, and, uh, and they, and so yeah,it's just kind of a little bit of
a natural kind of growth, but alsoplanned, uh, with the, with with the.
(33:34):
With the type of client, thecharacter of the client that
we wanna work with too, so.
Eric (33:38):
Sure.
And, and, and you mentionedthat you rebranded the business.
So how did, like, kind of what,what were all the, the, the, the
factors that came into play here?
I mean, I, new website, kinda new brand,like how, how did you sort of shift your
marketing to, to target these higher end,you know, type type clients and jobs?
Wilbur (33:56):
Yeah, so we originally started as Wilbur Construction, LLC, because we were
gonna go into commercial construction.
And, uh, funny story behind that.
My, I was gonna use Jennings 'cause that'smy last name, Jennings Construction, LC.
But I couldn't because I couldn't, uh,I couldn't incorporate it because it
was already taken on the state level.
And so I was like, okay,well what are we gonna do?
(34:17):
And my wife's like, use Wilbur.
I'm just like, I'm not using my name.
She's like, people are gonnaremember that, use that.
And then so she kindalike forced me into it.
I'm, I'm happy that she didnow, uh, 'cause she was right.
But, um.
But that Wilbur Construction, LLC was we,we kind of set up that way 'cause it was
commercial and it sounded more commercial.
Well, over the years we found thatwe started doing a little bit more
(34:40):
design year after year after year.
And then now people are asking usfor full design and we've, and, and
now we're doing, you know, full scaledrawings and very detailed drawings and.
We found that we can start chargingfor design a, you know, a few years
back and we're just like, okay, well ifthat's the direction we're going, let's,
(35:01):
let's make that part of our business.
And so that's when we decided that, okay,hey, we want people to know that we can do
design and construction all in one stop.
And so that's when we rebranded it andit's been successful for us so far.
Eric (35:15):
That's awesome.
Wilbur (35:15):
Yeah.
Eric (35:16):
And what do you do from, from a marketing standpoint, like where,
where are your leads coming from?
Are they, you know, referrals?
How much are you getting from the website?
Are you doing any paid marketing,advertising, things like that?
Wilbur (35:27):
Yeah, good question.
So that's been my main focus thislast year is, uh, is marketing.
So for the first nine years ofbusiness, we did zero marketing.
Matter of fact, in our budgetthere was not even a line item
that said advertising or marketing.
And so, uh, so that wasa new concept for me.
I was always word of mouth.
(35:47):
We always stayed busy enough andwe had enough growth to that, but
when we laid out the growth, what wewanted, that just wasn't tracking.
And so what, we need more growth to beable to hit these numbers and moved where
we want and service the people that,that, that need it in these other areas.
So I was like, okay, I'm gonna getmy head wrapped around marketing.
(36:07):
And my first approach was, uh, we startedFacebook and Instagram ad campaign.
And I thought it was a hugesuccess at first because we got
tons of leads, but the problem wasnone of them converted to jobs.
And so I was constantly busyfeeling productive, but.
(36:28):
I was really just spinning my wheelsin one place and not moving anywhere.
And so we stopped that and I said, okay.
And then we and, and then, and then,and then we hired a marketing director.
To help us with brand awareness.
And that's all we've donesince then is we, we we're not
asking people for their work.
We're not, um, doing, uh, you know, um,like ad campaigns, like, oh, you know, uh,
(36:52):
we'll do complimentary design if you, youknow, sign a kitchen with us or something
like that, because we tried that.
Right?
And once again, lots of leads.
Nobody, nobody made itthrough to construction.
And so I said, all I wanna do is help.
I. I wanna, we wanna be therefor people, so let's educate and
let's just create brand awareness.
(37:13):
We want everybody to know thatwe're here and that we can help.
We don't need to sell 'em onanything, but let's just educate.
So then we just started this educationalprocess, um, and then we connected
with some local, um, with our, uh, theLake Superior Community Partnership,
which is like a local seven, and ithelps you just network with people.
And so we just went in andsaid, what can we do to help?
(37:34):
Community and we startedsponsoring certain things.
And so that was really it.
That was our big marketing push,just brand awareness and education.
And so, uh, a couple thingsthat I plan on doing.
Is we're going to, um, we reach outand we're gonna do seminars, right?
I'm gonna go and I'm gonna speak topeople and say, Hey, you know, here's,
here's, uh, you can pick my brain.
(37:55):
Or, you know, maybe here's a topic.
Uh, we'll talk about, you know,what you can do to prep your house
for the winter, you know, andwe'll just have a, a free seminar.
You can come and, you know, I'llprovide, you know, a lunch or something.
And so, um, I'm gonna try totarget some, uh, specifically
some different women's groups.
'cause typically it's thewomen making the decisions in
kitchens and bathroom remodeling.
(38:15):
So if I. Can target some different women'sgroups and go and just speak to them
and say, Hey, is there anything thatI can do, um, any questions that you
might have if you are ever consideringgoing into a remodeling project or,
or any kinda maintenance on yourhome or design or anything like that.
Like, I'll just be there to answerquestions and help if I can.
Not trying to sell 'emjust there to educate.
(38:37):
So that's gonna be my, myapproach from this point forward.
I don't plan on doing any,like, ad campaigns or, you know,
like, like hook, like campaigns.
Like, yeah.
So, and that's awesome.
I mean, I, you been so far.
Eric (38:51):
I'm, I'm a, I'm a big believer in like, you know, when, when you focus
on adding value to people and, andproviding them education, like helping
them feel more comfortable exploringthis potential project or exploring
what a remodel might look like withoutbeing sold, you know, so, so many people
get turned off by that, that, thathard, you know, pushy sales approach.
(39:12):
Yeah.
And.
The reality is if, if now is notthe right time for them, if they're
not ready, if they don't have thebudget, if, if they just don't know
what they wanna do, like, you know.
Trying to force the sale on them, thatthat's not gonna help the situation.
And even if you do get it, 'causeyou're some wizard salesman, like,
you know, going into a process thatis stressful and as expensive as,
as, as a large remodel will be.
(39:34):
Like, you want them to be readyand prepared and educated mm-hmm.
And make that decision on their own.
So, you know, I I, I love the approachof, let's here, we're, we're gonna
just show you everything you need toknow, give you that, that education,
give you the resources, be a tool.
And when you're ready, come to us.
You know, and I, I think that often endsup track attracting a lot more people, you
know, than that, than that pushy salesman.
Wilbur (39:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and not only that, like onceyou've established that relationship,
it just makes the whole projectexperience that much better because
you've connected on a different level.
Eric (40:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you, you also mentioned, youknow, potentially opening up
in, in, in multiple markets.
Are, are you already there oris that the longer term vision?
Wilbur (40:15):
So that's the, the two and three year goal is to be, um, there's another
college town, uh, called Houghton, wherewe want to wanna be over there, uh,
within the next year, year and a half.
And then Iron Mountain, whichis, you know, it, it kind
of creates this triangle.
So we'll really be able to servicelike the whole western half of the
(40:38):
up, hopefully, um, you know, within,within the next three years here.
That's
Eric (40:43):
the idea.
That's great.
So what does, what does that mean?
Like what, what, what all do youhave to do to open up a new market?
Wilbur (40:49):
Yeah, so, um, that's a great question and I don't have it completely
dialed in yet, but my thought process isthat our home office will still be here.
Most of the, the bulk of the,of the, of the front end of the,
of the project will start here.
Right?
And so when we think about projectexperience, we think about right
from the first time that we makethat phone call after they come
(41:13):
through, you know, as a lead, andthen we make that first phone call.
What is the experience from that pointto 18 months or 24 months after the
project ends when we're making thatfinal warranty call and follow up, right?
So, um, that first whole pre-constructionphase, we feel like we can do
(41:34):
that from here, from our office.
We've got a staff here.
We've gotta draft our designers.
You know, we're, we're set here.
We don't necessarily need to havea whole nother office in these
other areas, but maybe it's asatellite office, so maybe we're in.
My idea is, um, you know,purchasing real estate out there.
'cause my wife and I liketo invest in real estate.
Purchasing an officebuilding in those areas.
(41:54):
Uh, and then, and then soon.
Um, and then being able to rent out aspace, uh, to our business once we move
into those areas and just have, it'dbe like a, a management like office,
like for a project manager and somebodycan check in there, um, and then have
a, have a couple guys in the field.
And really, that's all, I think allwe need to handle the big projects
(42:16):
because we put all these systemsand processes in place already.
We would, you would not beable to do anything like that.
You wouldn't be able to scale likethat if you were relying on the,
the people there to, to do all thequality oversight and in, in, and all
the, everything on their own, right?
So that's what we've really been workingon, these systems and processes so that
(42:38):
we can expand into those areas with, with,with, uh, with a little bit of overhead.
Eric (42:44):
No, it sounds like, sounds like a great plan.
And you know, I, I love the, the notionof, you know, you're, you're, you're
one, you're investing and you know,some, some, some real estate there.
You can then, you know, lease, leasethe space back to your own company.
But then also, you know, maybe,maybe you're, you know, having a
couple other tenants who knows,you know, and it's like you, you've
got some other income coming in.
You know, it's, uh, that, that's,that's a good way to sort of diversify
(43:07):
as well as, uh, enable expansion.
Yeah.
Wilbur (43:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
Eric (43:11):
I love that.
So what, what's the, what's thefive to 10 year vision here?
Where, where do you, where do yousee, you know, and, and want to
take the business kinda longer term?
Wilbur (43:20):
Mm-hmm.
Um, so we, we, as in, in part of our20 club discussions, uh, what we do
is we put together these little, um,these little kind of like TED talks, uh,
for each one of our meetings and, uh.
We did one on strategic legacyplanning, and that really got me
(43:41):
thinking about like, what is myexit plan gonna look like, right?
Um, you know, what is the companygonna look like after I've
removed myself from the company?
Or is it just gonna dissolve?
Is this gonna get auctioned off?
Like 99.9% of construction businessesright my size that are this size?
And so.
Um, the five to 10 year plan is gonnaprobably be putting in some sort of,
(44:05):
uh, maybe like an ESOP or some sortof, you know, um, transitional plan
to, you know, offload the company tothe, the, the, the current staff, the,
the current team or maybe a couple keyplayers or, um, plan for, uh, you know,
um, you know, someone else to buy.
(44:25):
I mean, our, we, our kids are atthe age right now where, you know.
15 years from now, theymight consider doing it.
My son, he's just like, yeah, I'mgonna just take over your business dad.
But he changes his mind,you know, every other day.
So, but uh, so it's, that's funny.
That's kind of the five-yearcampaign is just to get ready for
that transition outta the business,because I don't want, I wanna create.
(44:48):
A business that's gonna last, um, as the,as the new team is developing as well.
Right.
And, and, and for them to besafeguarded against, you know, just
folding up the doors and auctioningeverything off, because I've seen
that happen so many times around here.
And so to be able to put that intoplace and, and create that structure,
I think really invites, you know,talented people to join your team,
(45:10):
knowing that even if I'm gone mm-hmm.
That they're still secured.
Yeah.
So that, that's the, that's the five to 10year plan is getting that put into place.
Eric (45:21):
That sounds, sounds like a good plan.
I mean, you know, again, it's,you, you don't, you don't have
to have it all figured out.
It's just kind of, you got someoptions, some, some things you can
explore when the time is right.
But yeah.
Uh, you know, look, I, I, I reallyappreciate this, this whole conversation
will, where like, you've, you'veshared so much valuable insight
and into how you have started, youknow, from, from the very beginning.
Building this all by yourself, you know,selling the jobs, wearing the tool belt
(45:43):
to, to now spending your time, you know.
Strategically managing the business,you know, thinking about how you
can expand, how you continue togrow and, and, and, uh, you know,
just, just keep, keep excelling.
Uh, you know, I, I'm curious, you know,if, if you had to start all over today,
like is there any I. Anything that youwish you would've known that you now
know, you know, back at the beginning,that like you would share or, or give
(46:06):
some advice to any, anyone else who'searlier on, you know, how could they
achieve this same level of success that,you know, that took you 10 years, maybe?
How do they do it in five?
Like, what do you wish you would've known?
What advice do you have?
Wilbur (46:18):
Yeah.
I, I wish I would've listenedto my wife earlier on.
Don't we all?
Yeah.
I hope she doesn't watch this, but, um,she probably will, and then she need
to come back and say, yeah, I told you.
Um, but no, she, she was reallyinstrumental in the growth of the
business too, and I don't think shegets enough credit because, uh, you
know, she's sometimes on the, inthe sidelines or in the background,
but she's a big, big support for me.
(46:40):
She's always been my anchor for that.
And so, um, listening to her earlieron and not, not arguing with her
so much about, you know, like if Iwould've started job costing when she
told me to first start job costing,I probably would've understood
a little bit more earlier on.
I probably would've shifteda little bit quicker.
And so when I first started, I was,you know, all my invoicing, like
the payroll, I was doing everythingby hand and spreadsheets and I
(47:03):
mean, it was, it was exhausting.
I learned it and I understood it, but ifI would've just immediately said, okay,
I'm adopting QuickBooks Day one, right?
I would've saved myselfthree years, right?
If I would've immediately said, okay,I'm gonna jump into job tread day one
and learn this before I even start.
I mean, I would've been, Iwould've catapulted myself forward.
(47:24):
With systems and processes.
So it's just not being so stubborn,I think would've, would've, would've
really moved me forward quicker andnot thinking that I had to do it a
certain way or learn the hard way.
Yeah.
And so, uh, listening to podcasts andjust taking the advice from people that
have been down the road, I, I, I reallywish I would've done that more earlier
(47:44):
on because I, I would be, we would be10 times the company we are right now,
if I would've done that earlier on.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
Eric (47:52):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Well, hey, look, I, you know, again,I, I very much appreciate you coming
on and sharing this and giving back,you know, paying it forward, if you
will, to, to help others out there.
I mean, it, yeah, it reallydoes make a big impact.
And, you know, it's, it's been awesomebeing able to, to kind of just be a
fly on the wall here watching, youknow, you continue to build such
a great business and, you know, Ican't wait to see what the next, you
know, two to three years and how you,you know, expand into new markets.
(48:14):
I mean, it sounds like a really awesome,exciting challenge, exciting time for
the company, and I, you know, I can't,can't wait to see Make it happen, man.
Wilbur (48:21):
Yeah.
I appreciate that, Eric, and it'sbeen, uh, it's been a, uh, a real
pleasure talking with you as well.
I, I appreciate your time.
Eric (48:28):
Awesome.
Well, thank you again.
See you.
But thanks for joining us forthis episode of Builder Stories.
We hope you enjoyed the conversationand gained valuable insights that can
help you in your journey along the way.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe show and leave us a review.
And as always, if you or someone youknow has a story to share, please
(48:48):
contact us@builderstories.com.
We'd love to hear from you.
I'm Eric Fortenberry, and remember,every builder has a unique story.
Keep building yours.
Welcome to the podcast where we take a deep dive into the stories
behind construction business leaders.
We will share how they got started,how they found success, and the
lessons learned along the way.
I'm your host, Eric Fortenberry.
Welcome to Builder Stories.
Welcome back everybody.
I'm excited.
(00:20):
I have Wilbur Jennings.
With Wilbur Design and Construct.
They're located in Marquette,Michigan, their design build firm
out there doing really great work.
Really excited to have you on the show.
Welcome to Builder Stories, Wilbur.
Oh, thank
Wilbur (00:33):
you Eric.
I appreciate it.
Eric (00:35):
Yeah, so why don't we kick it off here.
Give us, you know, a littlebit of background, who you are,
how'd you get into construction,you know, what do you guys do?
Wilbur (00:42):
Yeah, so I got into construction at a really young age.
I had a tool belt on at the age of like13, uh, working trades with my uncles and.
They, they, they let me go in and messup a whole bunch of stuff and my, my
grandpa owned real estate, so he hadall these apartments and he'd just
like, yeah, go install that floor.
Go put that, you know, that, you know,do some framing over there, some drywall.
(01:04):
And I was doing stuff at such a youngage and making so many mistakes early
on, and I just had the opportunitythen that it just kind of grew
into a passion over the years.
And, um, I moved away from it alittle bit, but then jumped back in.
But yeah, I started at a really youngage, the passion for building and.
And so that's, that's kind of whereI ended up now, but uh, that's
Eric (01:24):
awesome.
I love it.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So what, what led you to, to start,start Wilbur Design and construct?
Wilbur (01:31):
Uh, yeah, so I, we actually, um, my wife and I decided to get
outta commercial construction.
So we both have backgroundsin commercial construction.
We have construction management degrees.
I'm mine's from Northern MichiganUniversity right here in my hometown.
Uh, she's from Minot, North Dakota.
So she went to NDSU and weactually met on an internship.
(01:54):
In Texas, and then we ended up movingto North Dakota and then moving to
Marquette, and we finally started abusiness with the end goal of being
a commercial construction company.
Well, when we got here, itwas, it was really tough.
Uh, the commercial market was, was,was, uh, there wasn't a lot of demand.
There was.
It was, it was over floodedwith, with contractors.
(02:17):
The margins were really low.
And I'm like, well man, if we'regonna get into this, I better figure
out something to do in betweenjobs because I'm not gonna have a
job and we're gonna go broke here.
So I'm like, I'll just get abuilder's license, no problem.
I had a degree in constructionmanagement, you know, um, I'll just
go take the test and get a builder'slicense and start doing some remodeling.
'cause I had all thisbackground, so I went.
(02:38):
I go to try to take the Builders toBuilders exam, and they're like, well,
you need to take 60 hours of training.
You need to get this certificatebefore you can take the exam.
And it's like, I have a fouryear construction management
degree that doesn't qualify me.
They're just like, not with your program.
It's like, huh?
So a quick tangent.
We actually went back to NorthernMichigan University and had a
conversation with the professors.
And now their program, when theygraduate, they can walk right into
(03:02):
the, that office and take that test.
And they don't have to doany additional training, but
Eric (03:05):
that's awesome.
Wilbur (03:06):
I, I didn't get that luxury then, so, uh, but yeah, so I just took the exam,
got my builder's license, uh, and thenwe started doing little small projects.
Like I think my first projectwas a basement remodel for like.
$10,000 or something.
I remember our first year looking atthe average job cost or the average
job size for our first year, and itwas like $5,600 or something like that.
(03:31):
Just some like really low number.
And, uh, to think about where we aretoday is like incredible, like the,
the, the amount that we've grown.
But, uh, that's where it started.
We started as like.
The intention of just filling inwork and then the demand just kind
of grew and we're like, okay, wellthis is more profitable than what we
were anticipating con commercial tobe, and there's a huge demand for it.
(03:55):
So we just stayed in the residentiallane and then we just kind of built
one thing after another off of that.
And so we've, here, we find ourselves inthis niche now and don't have any desire
to get into commercials construction.
So, yeah.
Nice.
And and how many, howmany years ago was that?
That was 10 years.
We, we were celebrating 10 years, uh, thisyear, January 1st, we celebrated 10 years.
Eric (04:15):
Awesome.
Congrats.
Yeah.
So I'm curious, you know, those, those,those first jobs, you know, what,
what were they and, and how did youget your first, your first customers?
Wilbur (04:22):
Oh, man.
My, my, my first customer was a friend.
You know, that was the first, thiswas the first two people you hit.
Right?
Friends and family.
And, you know, we just started,started our job and, uh, you
know, we, we were moving comfrom com commercial construction.
We were making lots of money there.
And then we moved to Marette.
Everybody's like, don't start a business.
You're gonna, it's gonna,it's gonna go broke.
You're, you know, it's gonna fail.
(04:43):
And we're just like,we're doing it anyways.
'cause we want the freedom andthe flexibility and we come in
and, and you know, that first jobwas like a, a basement remodel.
And then I think my second job was like,you know, like a deck or something.
And I just, it was just a bunchof these little jobs I. That
first year we made $25,000.
Wow.
I was like, success,you know, we made money.
(05:06):
We didn't lose money.
So, uh, and, and, and, and that was it.
So it, it was a huge pay cut, but itwas like this, like this, this weight
like lifted off You like, I can do this,
Eric (05:17):
you know,
Wilbur (05:18):
there's, there's direction here.
Right.
I can, I can make it, I can make it work.
That was it.
And so all those jobs at firstyear is like, there's just like
little bathrooms, updates, youknow, I think we did a kitchen.
Um, and then the following yeara breakthrough for us was we
got a, uh, an insurance joband it was like a $60,000 job.
(05:39):
And it was, this was like.
This is, this is like big.
Okay.
You know, and, and, and I didn't reallyknow how to attack it, like estimating.
And so we completely underbid it.
We just went off what theinsurance said they would pay,
and we like, barely broke even.
And I'm like, okay, well notgonna stay in business doing that.
(06:01):
But we learned a lot.
Right.
And it seemed like these, thesecatalyst projects through the years.
Are like that, right?
You, you don't maybe knowexactly how to approach 'em.
You're, you're kind of taking a chanceon things and maybe you don't make a
bunch of money, but you get all thisexperience and that lets you, you know,
kind of sets paves the way it sets thatfoundation for the growth in that new
(06:23):
category that you're find yourself in.
Eric (06:25):
So what, what's the, what's the team look like today that you've got in place?
Wilbur (06:28):
So, the team today, um, we've got an estimator and a drafter.
We've got a project manager, we'vegot a field crew, we've got a
marketing director and a designer.
Okay.
Eric (06:40):
Yeah.
So how many people is that total?
Wilbur (06:42):
Uh, we, there's eight of us total.
Eric (06:44):
That's great.
I'm, I'm curious, who wasyour, your first hire?
You know, I, I assume it was kind ofjust you and your wife for a while.
Wilbur (06:51):
It was, and not even really my wife.
'cause we decided to not juststart a business but have a baby
the first year and a new housethat was completely dilapidated.
'cause we're like, oh, we know howto remodel so we'll remodel a house,
start a business, and have a baby.
Wow.
I do not recommend that to anybody.
So, uh, in your first year, so.
But, uh, yeah, early on it was just me.
(07:14):
I was out there swinging the hammer.
You know, I still love,you know, doing work.
Um, but my wife keeps me plenty busywith home projects, so I, I get,
you know, I get in the field there.
But, uh, early projects, it was me andthen I, I hired a friend, you know, and
then my next hire was my cousin and,you know, and then I didn't really know
how to like, um, I didn't have, I didn'thave like a process for interviewing
(07:37):
or a process for trying to find new.
People for our team, and I didn'treally even know how to be a, like a
good leader or a boss at that time.
You know, I was just kind of likeflying by the seat of my pants.
I didn't have any reallylike mentors or anything.
I was just kind of, kind of in myown mind just kind of paving my own
path and looking back now, I'm justlike, if I knew now or if I knew
(08:00):
then what I know now, I would'veapproached it completely different.
Eric (08:04):
That's, that's, that's, uh, where I hear a lot of people start and, you
know, you, you kind of, you're justlearning trial by fire, continuing
to build and, you know, jobs get, youknow, bigger over time can kind of get
more confident taking on larger andlarger scopes, you know, eventually
need to keep building out the team.
So it's, you know.
That's the common path.
You know, every entrepreneur justcharges and, uh, you know, charges
(08:24):
ahead and charts their own path there.
Wilbur (08:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
Eric (08:28):
Pass.
So, you know, you, you've, you've kindof talked about, you know, a couple
multiple projects that were verychallenging for you from a mm-hmm.
From a, a financial standpoint.
I'm, I'm curious, you know, what, howhas your process, your, your estimating
process, how has that evolved since then?
Like, how, how do you make sure, youknow, today when you're bidding on a job
that, that you're not making those samemistakes that you were making before?
Wilbur (08:50):
Oh, yeah.
That's a great question.
Uh.
So the, the point where, um, yourealize that your company needs to
make money just as much as you needto, you know, survive and, and,
and have a living off your company.
Um, that was a big learning point for me,you know, and that concept just kind of
like never was brought to my attention.
(09:11):
I don't, I don't come from abackground of, you know, entrepreneur
in my family, and so it was kindof a new learning experience.
But when I. Um, and when I actuallyjoined the, uh, 20 club, um, that's
when it really kind of turned around.
And that was just onlylike a few years ago.
And so we had made some profitsup until then, but really diving
(09:33):
into the numbers and dissecting thefinancial part of it really helped.
And, uh, and we had been using.
Project management software before that.
Um, but at that time we also hadmade the switch to job tread too.
And because of that feature of, youknow, being able to break down the
financials a lot better, and so that wasit, like, just like the education on it.
(09:55):
Like people are just like, yeah,you, you know, you, your company's
supposed to make money too.
It's like, oh, um, yeah, I, I guess so.
They're like, if you wanna like turnaround and sell your company someday,
you need to make your company profitable.
You just can't have a. Youknow, it making you money.
It like needs to be itsown entity in a sense.
Right?
And so, so that's when wereally started focusing on like
(10:17):
margins and, um, job costing.
And job costing wasn'teven a thing for us.
For the first five years ofa business we didn't like, I
didn't even know what it was.
And now it's like every single project wejob costs and we have a, we have a project
debrief on with our whole team thatwas, that was involved in the project.
So right from the beginningstages of estimating or even that
(10:38):
consultation, that whole projectexperience, you know, for our clients.
And then for the, the way weassemble the project, it's,
it's very process driven Now.
Everything we do has a process, be behindit and, uh, you know, not, not to try
to plug, plug job, try again, but likewe've built our processes in that system
(11:00):
so we don't even have to think about it.
We're taking the, essentially taking thethinking out of the, of the day-to-day
operations and putting it into checklistsand to-dos and, and, and, and schedules.
And so we can just, literally, our projectmanager can walk out to a project and say,
okay, well this, this trade is complete.
And now we've got, uh, you know,the drywall and painting evaluation.
(11:21):
It's a 20 point checklist.
And he literally just goes through,through there like, like, you
know, an oil change and justcheck, check, check, check, check.
And ever since we implemented processes.
Our margins go up.
Job costing got easier, our projectsget shorter, smoother client client
happiness is through the roof.
Um, in the last year and ahalf, we haven't had a project
(11:43):
go over budget or over time.
Not one.
You know, that's awesome.
Unless it was homeowner driven, like,you know, we, we get a lot of that.
Like we had one product, literallythe homeowner was like, I'd like
to make a change order and do awhole nother bathroom addition or
a whole nother bathroom renovation.
So $60,000 addition to their originalscope mid-project, and we were
(12:06):
able to complete that with justan additional two weeks of time.
'cause we weaved itright into the schedule.
So, but we wouldn't be able to dothat without processes in place.
Eric (12:14):
Yeah.
That's, that's so huge, man.
And, and, and you know, again, I,I hear the same story a lot where,
you know, the, the notion of jobcosting is just a foreign concept.
Like nobody understands it.
And I, I'm a little surprised.
I mean, did they, I guess, I guess.
Do they not teach that in the,in the construction management
course, or is it Oh, they do.
Wilbur (12:31):
It wasn't them.
It was me.
Yeah.
Okay.
I was very resistant to it.
And my wife had been telling me for yearsand years, and then our CPA's like, yeah,
you should probably start job costing.
And, and I'm like, yeah.
You know, and then actuallywhen, uh, we started job costing,
my wife's like I told you.
Yeah.
See, I've been tellingyou this for a long time.
Right.
And I'm just,
Eric (12:49):
yeah, you're right.
You're right.
No, it's, it's, it is, it's,it's so important and you
know, it, it really can make.
All the difference in the world.
You know, being able to, to, tomake sure that you're hitting
those target profit margins.
Yeah, absolutely.
It sounds like really, you know, joiningthose, the, the NAHB 20 club, I mean, was
that kind of like your first real sortof, when you surrounded yourself by, you
(13:10):
know, a bunch of other builders who were,you know, probably farther along, maybe
they had some of these systems processes,like they, you know, was that kind of
like that, that, that turning point whereyou, you really got exposed to, hey,
maybe there's a better way that, youknow, I need to start learning from them.
Wilbur (13:24):
Um, yeah, a lot of that and, uh, you know, even moving into that 20 club.
Um, I was And
Eric (13:30):
can you tell us, tell us a little bit for, for those who don't know,
what, what, what are the 20 clubs?
Wilbur (13:34):
So the 20 clubs are, um, little offshoots of National
Association of Home Builders.
So essentially it's, they're,they're like-minded people.
They're in non-competing areas around thecountry, and they're grouped together.
Um, so you can talk about everythingbusiness, you know, um, and you
know, all your finances, logistics,client relations, hiring, and
(13:57):
you know, all your processes.
And, and also you get really goodpersonal relationship with everybody.
And then, um, with our 20 club, we knowa lot of times we're bringing family to
the, you know, the, we have two in-personmeetings per year, and they're usually,
you know, at a, at a host city site.
Um, but we do monthly zoom meetingsand we talk about everything business.
(14:19):
And so, and then, you know, and thenwe've got like a text thread, so
where if anything pops up day-to-daystuff, it's like literally like
I can have an answer like from 10guys on any kind of issue that I'm
going through right now and Right.
And that kind of, that kind of quickaccess to that knowledge is invaluable.
And, uh, but yeah, there'sa, there's a process.
You, um, you apply to get in andthen you go through the interviewing
(14:42):
process and then, you know, thenyou're accepted into a club.
And, um, of course, you know, there'sdues that are involved and there's
a, there's definitely a financialobligation that comes with it because,
um, you know, there's, there's alot of value that comes out of it.
So if you're not willing toput the financial, um, you
know, the financial, uh.
Uh, investment.
(15:02):
Investment into it.
Yeah.
Then, then, then, then reallyit's not a, a good place.
Right.
So, uh, but yeah, so I've, I'vegot a lot of experience from them,
but when I first joined, I almostfelt like, am I, am I qualified?
Right?
I was like, do I have enoughexperience to bring the table?
And, you know, just the storiesthat I was able to tell.
(15:24):
And then, you know, some of the, someof the things that the, some of the.
Um, some of the problems thatwe worked through, those were
helpful to other people too.
And so that was nice to hearand get feedback from them.
Um, but as far as like gettingcontrol of the finances, that
was a, that was a big thing.
'cause they're like, well, first thing waslike you had to like, open up your books.
(15:45):
Like, here we go.
You get to see everything.
And there's like, why are you doingthat and why are you doing that?
And why aren't you making money here?
It is like, and why isyour profit margin so low?
And why is your, you know, and so they'lllike, they'll like, call you out, right?
So it's accountability andthey keep you in check.
And so, um, and then they also help youput systems into place, you know, and, and
(16:08):
the, the 20 club that I'm in where there's15 members, the 20 club means that you
can have PUP two 20 members in that club.
And right now, I actually think there's.
Um, there might be, uh, they mightbe trying to start another remodeling
20 club, because I think there's onlyfive of 'em in the country, which
means there's about seven between75 and we'll say 125 people that
(16:29):
are in these remodeling 20 clubs.
And then there's a bunch ofbuilder 20 clubs as well.
Uh, but we're a part ofa remodeling 20 club.
Awesome, because everybody in ourclub does remodeling and some of
them do design and remodeling.
Some of 'em actually dabble incommercial a little bit, and
some of them do spec homes and.
Some, you know, some custom home building.
(16:49):
Some of 'em are just des adesigner that do remodeling.
Uh, so we have a good group of guys,but we all kind of have, um, a similar
revenue and we all have similarinterests and we're in non-competing
markets so we can share everything.
Um, and it's nice to see, you know, whatguys out on the east coast too versus,
you know, the west coast and um, and downin Texas, you know, and so, you know, um.
(17:13):
Uh, where, where, where are you?
You're down in Texas Summer, right?
Are you guys in Austin?
Eric (17:17):
Uh, we're in Dallas.
Dallas, Texas.
You're
Wilbur (17:19):
in Dallas?
That's right.
Okay.
So one of our members, he's in Austin.
You know, it's just south of you,so, um, but uh, yeah, it's nice to
get these different, you know, um.
Well, it's nice to see that everybody'sgot the same problem everywhere else.
Yeah.
And we're all kind of focused on, onthat, but it's, but it's also nice to
see the different demographics, um,you know, the different demands in the
(17:40):
market, how things are fluctuating and,uh, but yeah, for the most part we're
all going through the same problems.
I.
Eric (17:47):
So I'm, I'm curious, you know, again, you, you started off, you know,
wearing all the hats, you know, sellingthe jobs, you know, do, doing the work
with the tool belt on, like, you know,how has your role evolved and, and
like, what do you focus on day to day?
You know, in, in, in, in today's,you know, 10-year-old business?
Wilbur (18:03):
Yeah.
Um, well, I still like to keep my hatin the finances, so I do a lot of the,
um, a lot of the bookkeeping still, and.
Just kind of like the overalldirection of, of, of that.
So, I mean, we have our CPA and they helpwith a bunch of stuff and, and we have a,
a quarterly management meeting with them.
But, um, but yeah, doing WIP reportsand I like to keep my head in the
(18:26):
numbers right and just kind of knowthat we're, that we're okay there and
that we're, we're tar, we're trackingand we're staying on budgets, right.
So it's another thing.
Budgets never had a budgetuntil like four years ago.
Right.
And didn't even know the concept really.
I'm just like, okay.
Um, so.
Making sure that we're stayingon budget and then, you know, um,
(18:46):
really having the company vision.
You know, what I've found over the lastfew years is that when you're trying to
onboard and build this team of A players,you need to have a company vision.
You have to have, Hey, this is thedirection we're going and this is how
we're gonna get here, and this is whatthe organization's gonna look like.
And then that instills confidence in yourteam to say, Hey, you know what, this.
(19:08):
Where we're going somewhere and I can jumpon board this and I can have a long-term
investment of my career in this company.
And so that's really important.
So, um, earlier on we, you know, thisis, this is probably five years ago.
We sat down, we createda mission statement.
We created our commitments to ourclients and to our team, and we
spent a whole day working together.
And that was fantastic.
(19:29):
It brought us closer together as a team.
And so to this day, we continually.
You know, use those commitmentsin our mission to, um, help us
with the direction of the company.
And so, um, I focus on that a lot.
Like, okay, where's our growth gonna be?
Like, what is our, you know,is our, is our target clients
still what it was from last year?
(19:51):
You know, do we, what do we wantour average job sizes to be?
Where do we want to go for that?
Like, and then being able tojust, um, help people work
through stress management because.
Uh, you know, project management andestimating, and those are demanding jobs.
And when we, when we pile awhole workload onto people,
that can be really overwhelming.
(20:12):
Um, you know, so, uh, you know, I, Ilike having flow charts, you know, the
Kanban charts, those are really nice.
'cause they, you know, they,they, they say immediately
where there's a bottleneck.
Yep.
And you can kind of work through that.
And so.
That's been really my main focus is,is making sure that our systems and
processes are working and then we'readapting and, uh, and we're growing.
(20:35):
So, you know, like, like right now,my main focus was, uh, changing the
way our process was from like ourinitial consultation and then it
went to design and then it went intoestimating, and then we went to, so
we had these different areas thatwe went through and we found that.
We were spending a lot of time in buildingpreliminary budgets for people to view
(21:00):
before they went into a design contract.
And it's like, well, sometimeswe'd have 20 hours into these
things and we wouldn't, wewouldn't, we wouldn't get the job.
And so we reformatted that.
I created a scope development agreement,and now what we do is we, we've
bundled a little portion of the design.
(21:20):
A portion of the scheduling and aportion of the estimate and captured
it into one more clear picture andsaid, Hey, this is what you can have
if you sign the scope developmentagreement, put down a retainer fee.
And it's like we have a likea $1,500 minimum fee on that.
And that applies towards thework that goes into that.
And so now after our initialcon consultation, we get paid
(21:42):
for everything after that.
And people are a lot more likelyto jump into something like that
because they're not committingto a full design and they're not
committing to construction either.
And so as soon as we did that,we signed like seven contracts
in like seven, like two weeks.
And everybody on our team just like,whoa, how are we gonna handle this?
I was like, okay, well let's lay this out.
And then, so that back to me,that's where my health is.
(22:03):
My job is to really kinda like,like layer this properly so we
can manage that, so we can managethat, that, that amount of work.
Uh, so yeah,
Eric (22:11):
that's, that's awesome.
I mean, again, it, you know,sometimes it sort of takes.
Takes stepping back to, to be ableto see the, the forest from the
trees there and like, you know, yeah.
Really understanding where yourbottlenecks were and where, I mean, again,
you, you're, you're sinking 20 hours intosomething that you know, goes nowhere.
I mean, yeah, you, you can't affordto do that, you know, too many times.
And so, you know, it was a great move tokind of, Hey, let's, let's get something
(22:34):
up front, gets some skin in the game.
Make sure you know, if, if,if it goes nowhere, at least
we got something here, but.
I think, I think it's, uh, you know,really smart of you to, to really be
able to look at that and understand theimpact on where your people are, are,
are spending time and are we kind ofprogressing this, this, this customer
along, you know, to, to hopefullyget them into the construction.
Yeah.
Wilbur (22:54):
Yeah.
One thing, and one thing we reallydeveloped as a, as a mentality
of like solution oriented.
So, um, you know, I've gotguys that work for us that.
I have come from companies wherethey've been beaten up, you know, not
physically, but like mentally and like.
Um, and, and I think the industry as awhole, like the construction industry
(23:15):
kind of has that like, you know, likethat tough guy, that rough guy that,
you know, you know, it's an environmentof like cuss words and, you know,
um, people get chewed out for things.
But we've created a, a culture aroundhere where that that's just not acceptable
and we don't treat each other that way.
And so, and when everybodymakes a mistake, it's.
(23:37):
Really comforting knowing that ifsomething happens, it doesn't matter
how much of a mistake it is, it couldbe a $5 mistake or a $5,000 mistake.
I know that our team's gonna come tome and say, Hey, here's the mistake.
Here's how we fixed it, and here'sthe solution moving forward that
we're gonna, that's gonna help usprevent it from happening again.
And when somebody comes to you withthat, how can you not be just like.
(24:01):
Like grateful.
Right.
That, wow.
Okay.
So you just in my mind, so you just savedus thousands of dollars down the road.
That's the only way I can think about it.
Rather than like, youjust cost me two grand.
Right.
And that's the, the mentalitywe've been driving for the last few
years and it was a game changer.
Now everybody's like, comesto me, they're excited.
Yeah, I made this mistake.
(24:22):
It was like 2,500 bucks, but, you know,um, this is, this is what I did to fix
it and here's how we changed the process.
I'm just like, awesome.
That's fantastic.
Yeah.
No, that's great.
It's, thanks.
Saving me $15,000 next year, you know?
Yeah.
So, yeah, so that, that, that was a bigchange for us too because, um, you know,
early on I didn't really know how toapproach, um, people that made mistakes.
(24:45):
I mean, 'cause I, I grew up inthe same atmosphere of atmosphere.
It's like you make a mistake andyou kinda get your hand slapped and.
You know, like that was stupid.
Why would you do something like that?
Right.
Eric (24:54):
Yeah.
Wilbur (24:54):
And, and shamed even to, to a point.
And so we just eliminated that altogether.
And, and now we have people like thatare more eager to make positive change.
They're not afraid to makemistakes, which gives them more
autonomy and, uh, more purpose.
'cause now they're not like,okay, hey, this is my task list.
This is the only thing that I can do.
(25:15):
So yeah,
Eric (25:16):
it's really opened
Wilbur (25:16):
us up.
Eric (25:17):
As a team.
Yeah, that's, that's awesome.
I'm, I'm also a big believer.
I'd, I'd rather people, you know,try something, fail, learn, improve,
you know, than to, to never try,you know, new things like, I mean,
that, that's, that's where innovationcomes, that's where growth and
improvement and strength comes is, is.
Through taking risk and through Yeah.
You know, trying things.
Now I'm not, you know, I'm not okay withlet's, you know, can't, can't make the
(25:38):
same mistake over and over and over again.
I mean, that's right.
You know, that ain't gonna work.
But as long as you've learned andyou understand, you know, what went
wrong and how you can prevent thatin the future, you know, I'm, I'm
totally cool with mistakes too.
I mean, you, you just, yeah.
You can't, can't beat someone up for, fortrying something that didn't work out and.
Or just, or, or making those mistakes.
I think that's, that's, that's howyou quickly drive them away Yeah.
(25:59):
Is if, if they're fearful everyday of making that mistake.
You know, earlier, uh, you, you mentionedthat, you know, you, you didn't have
an annual budget for the company.
Uh.
For the first four years orso, or first six years or
however long it was like, yeah.
I'm curious, like how, how did you realizethat you needed to start creating that?
Plan for the business because I,uh, I actually just yesterday we,
(26:21):
we we're working on our, uh, our,our second kind of playbook and we
published the, the Business Playbook.
And so I just, you know, we, we've startedworking on this financial playbook and
one of the main components of it is this.
Annual template, you know, this annualbudget template that, that any company can
use to really, you know, forecast theirrevenue, you know, their gross profit,
what all their overhead's gonna be, andultimately, you know, their net income.
(26:43):
And, and, and the goal is tohelp them to, to better sort of
financially manage their business.
So I'm, I'm curious, how did youfigure out that you needed that and
where did you start and how was that?
That process evolved for you.
Mm-hmm.
You're now using it as, youknow, I assume you're using it
as a regular tool to financiallymanage and track your progress.
Wilbur (27:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
That, that is somethingthat we use regularly now.
Uh, I think that, I think the, theturning point for me was, um, at, at
one point we had about 10 people onour staff, and we, uh, we had grown,
you know, uh, and I was only lookingat the revenue growth year after year.
And, and, you know, and on, on my.
(27:24):
Spreadsheets that I had built.
And, you know, we had a nice clear,you know, it was a nice even line
going up and like, this is great.
We're at a slow, steady growth.
And, um, and, but what I, but I, whatI saw was at a certain point we had,
you know, oh, 10 people on our staff,but I wasn't making any more money.
(27:45):
Like my salary didn't go up, thecompany wasn't making more money and
so we were growing revenue wise, butit was a flat line on net profit.
And I'm just like, well, if this is what'sgonna happen, then I'm gonna burn out
really quick and that's not sustainable.
And so, uh, we essentially said, okay,we need to get super efficient here.
(28:09):
And um, and a number of years ago,we made a pretty drastic shift and
we essentially kind of restarted.
And, uh, we, we rebranded andwe kind of restructured our
company culture and our team.
And, uh, and then we, then that'swhen we were like focused on like,
um, like not just growing the revenue,but growing the bottom line as well.
(28:32):
And because when you grow thatbottom line as well, it allows you
to incentivize your team better.
It allows you to offer, you know,better benefits and, and a better
working environment allows you tostay on top of, with the latest
technology, the, the newest equipment.
Um, you get to pick the best clients,you get to pick the best projects
(28:52):
because you're essentially the bestin your industry, in your area.
And that, and that was the goal for us.
We're just like, okay, hey, we,we wanna be the number one design
remodeling firm in the upper peninsula,and how do we get to that point?
So that's what our organizationalchart is now is the, the growth for
that is, okay, now we're not justgonna be in Marquette, but we're gonna
(29:14):
be in these other areas as well andhave potentially satellite offices.
How do we get to that?
Right?
You vis you vision plan for that,and then you work backwards and you
create your organizational chart.
So at this point now, because of thebudgeting back to the financing and
the revenue growth, we will know when.
And when it's time to hire anotherproject manager, well know when
(29:37):
it's time to hire our, um, youknow, uh, another designer, right?
And so, uh, or when we need to add onmore field crew or for a production
team, like, it helps you plan that and,and work it into place so you're not
just like reactionary to everything.
And sometimes that's unavoidable.
Sometimes, like right now we are ina little bit of a reactionary state
(30:00):
because we just sold seven projects.
In a matter of a couple weeks.
So like, okay, like production, we need,we're gonna need more people quickly.
Yep.
Right.
Um, so we're gonna be hiring,you know, some, some production
guys, but you know, so sometimesyou do have to make the pivot.
But for long-term planning, thatfinancial tool is so important, right?
Eric (30:20):
So you're talking about, you know, really kind of identifying,
you know, and, and kind of beingmore strategic about your growth.
And, and you needed to identify,you know, your target client,
you know, and, and your target.
Like tell, tell us a little bit moreabout like how do you decide, you know,
and figure out what is your ideal client?
Wilbur (30:38):
Mm-hmm.
So a while back, we brought ourteam together and we said, okay,
hey, we're gonna build a redflag list for clients, right?
And we're gonna use this list in ourbetting process for our clients, right?
Because we've met our clients.
I would say just as much as our clientsvet us, which I think is like the perfect.
You know, relationship to have when you'regoing into, because I mean, like, these
(31:00):
clients become like family members to us.
We're in their house every day and,and, and it's not like we're building
a new house where we don't haveto see 'em and interact with 'em.
Like they're living there and we'rebuilding an addition on their house, or
we're taking over their kitchen space andsetting up a little prep kitchen for 'em.
Um, so we're interacting withthem and their dogs and they're,
you know, their, their family.
So creating a red flaglist for clients early on.
(31:23):
Helped us define our, our target as well.
And then we realized also that, okay,so we wanna work with people that are
kind, we wanna be work people that, that,um, can make good decisions together.
As, as you know, as a couple.
Um, we wanna work with people that,um, you know, uh, are, have, have a
good idea of what they're doing and,and they've done some research, right?
(31:44):
They like, okay, hey, you, you're notjust like coming and saying, okay, hey,
we wanna do a full home remodel, and wehave zero idea where to start, right?
So, um, they're not ready for that.
That's a, that's a, that's a wholeprocess in itself is getting mentally
ready to go into a renovation.
Epic.
So we look at, you know, differentthings like that and that helps
(32:04):
us define our client there.
But then also for us, um, you know,our niche is that 250 to $600,000
project because we've got themanagement team in place for it.
So we have, um, we have the staff tomost efficiently manage those projects.
Now, smaller projects, like, you know,a $30,000 bathroom, they're great, but
(32:28):
we find that it's still a touch pointfor every single person in our team.
And so we're still, themanagement's high on that.
And so, uh, it's more efficientfor us to do larger products.
And then over time, what we've seen is.
That's just kind of naturally weededout some of the smaller projects too,
because somebody that maybe wantsa, a really quick bathroom update,
(32:51):
they don't wanna wait six or ninemonths, um, to start the project.
Sure.
And so, so we've kind of naturally kindof, you know, moved our target client into
that a little bit higher earning income.
They're typically, uh, families,uh, then with the, with the
(33:11):
parents aged from like 45 to 65.
And, um, and, uh, they've got, uh,extra, they've got extra income,
expendable income for projects.
They've been saving, they'vebeen planning for it.
Um, and, uh, and they, and so yeah,it's just kind of a little bit of
a natural kind of growth, but alsoplanned, uh, with the, with with the.
(33:34):
With the type of client, thecharacter of the client that
we wanna work with too, so.
Eric (33:38):
Sure.
And, and, and you mentionedthat you rebranded the business.
So how did, like, kind of what,what were all the, the, the, the
factors that came into play here?
I mean, I, new website, kinda new brand,like how, how did you sort of shift your
marketing to, to target these higher end,you know, type type clients and jobs?
Wilbur (33:56):
Yeah, so we originally started as Wilbur Construction, LLC, because we were
gonna go into commercial construction.
And, uh, funny story behind that.
My, I was gonna use Jennings 'cause that'smy last name, Jennings Construction, LC.
But I couldn't because I couldn't, uh,I couldn't incorporate it because it
was already taken on the state level.
And so I was like, okay,well what are we gonna do?
(34:17):
And my wife's like, use Wilbur.
I'm just like, I'm not using my name.
She's like, people are gonnaremember that, use that.
And then so she kindalike forced me into it.
I'm, I'm happy that she didnow, uh, 'cause she was right.
But, um.
But that Wilbur Construction, LLC was we,we kind of set up that way 'cause it was
commercial and it sounded more commercial.
Well, over the years we found thatwe started doing a little bit more
(34:40):
design year after year after year.
And then now people are asking usfor full design and we've, and, and
now we're doing, you know, full scaledrawings and very detailed drawings and.
We found that we can start chargingfor design a, you know, a few years
back and we're just like, okay, well ifthat's the direction we're going, let's,
(35:01):
let's make that part of our business.
And so that's when we decided that, okay,hey, we want people to know that we can do
design and construction all in one stop.
And so that's when we rebranded it andit's been successful for us so far.
Eric (35:15):
That's awesome.
Wilbur (35:15):
Yeah.
Eric (35:16):
And what do you do from, from a marketing standpoint, like where,
where are your leads coming from?
Are they, you know, referrals?
How much are you getting from the website?
Are you doing any paid marketing,advertising, things like that?
Wilbur (35:27):
Yeah, good question.
So that's been my main focus thislast year is, uh, is marketing.
So for the first nine years ofbusiness, we did zero marketing.
Matter of fact, in our budgetthere was not even a line item
that said advertising or marketing.
And so, uh, so that wasa new concept for me.
I was always word of mouth.
(35:47):
We always stayed busy enough andwe had enough growth to that, but
when we laid out the growth, what wewanted, that just wasn't tracking.
And so what, we need more growth to beable to hit these numbers and moved where
we want and service the people that,that, that need it in these other areas.
So I was like, okay, I'm gonna getmy head wrapped around marketing.
(36:07):
And my first approach was, uh, we startedFacebook and Instagram ad campaign.
And I thought it was a hugesuccess at first because we got
tons of leads, but the problem wasnone of them converted to jobs.
And so I was constantly busyfeeling productive, but.
(36:28):
I was really just spinning my wheelsin one place and not moving anywhere.
And so we stopped that and I said, okay.
And then we and, and then, and then,and then we hired a marketing director.
To help us with brand awareness.
And that's all we've donesince then is we, we we're not
asking people for their work.
We're not, um, doing, uh, you know, um,like ad campaigns, like, oh, you know, uh,
(36:52):
we'll do complimentary design if you, youknow, sign a kitchen with us or something
like that, because we tried that.
Right?
And once again, lots of leads.
Nobody, nobody made itthrough to construction.
And so I said, all I wanna do is help.
I. I wanna, we wanna be therefor people, so let's educate and
let's just create brand awareness.
(37:13):
We want everybody to know thatwe're here and that we can help.
We don't need to sell 'em onanything, but let's just educate.
So then we just started this educationalprocess, um, and then we connected
with some local, um, with our, uh, theLake Superior Community Partnership,
which is like a local seven, and ithelps you just network with people.
And so we just went in andsaid, what can we do to help?
(37:34):
Community and we startedsponsoring certain things.
And so that was really it.
That was our big marketing push,just brand awareness and education.
And so, uh, a couple thingsthat I plan on doing.
Is we're going to, um, we reach outand we're gonna do seminars, right?
I'm gonna go and I'm gonna speak topeople and say, Hey, you know, here's,
here's, uh, you can pick my brain.
(37:55):
Or, you know, maybe here's a topic.
Uh, we'll talk about, you know,what you can do to prep your house
for the winter, you know, andwe'll just have a, a free seminar.
You can come and, you know, I'llprovide, you know, a lunch or something.
And so, um, I'm gonna try totarget some, uh, specifically
some different women's groups.
'cause typically it's thewomen making the decisions in
kitchens and bathroom remodeling.
(38:15):
So if I. Can target some different women'sgroups and go and just speak to them
and say, Hey, is there anything thatI can do, um, any questions that you
might have if you are ever consideringgoing into a remodeling project or,
or any kinda maintenance on yourhome or design or anything like that.
Like, I'll just be there to answerquestions and help if I can.
Not trying to sell 'emjust there to educate.
(38:37):
So that's gonna be my, myapproach from this point forward.
I don't plan on doing any,like, ad campaigns or, you know,
like, like hook, like campaigns.
Like, yeah.
So, and that's awesome.
I mean, I, you been so far.
Eric (38:51):
I'm, I'm a, I'm a big believer in like, you know, when, when you focus
on adding value to people and, andproviding them education, like helping
them feel more comfortable exploringthis potential project or exploring
what a remodel might look like withoutbeing sold, you know, so, so many people
get turned off by that, that, thathard, you know, pushy sales approach.
(39:12):
Yeah.
And.
The reality is if, if now is notthe right time for them, if they're
not ready, if they don't have thebudget, if, if they just don't know
what they wanna do, like, you know.
Trying to force the sale on them, thatthat's not gonna help the situation.
And even if you do get it, 'causeyou're some wizard salesman, like,
you know, going into a process thatis stressful and as expensive as,
as, as a large remodel will be.
(39:34):
Like, you want them to be readyand prepared and educated mm-hmm.
And make that decision on their own.
So, you know, I I, I love the approachof, let's here, we're, we're gonna
just show you everything you need toknow, give you that, that education,
give you the resources, be a tool.
And when you're ready, come to us.
You know, and I, I think that often endsup track attracting a lot more people, you
know, than that, than that pushy salesman.
Wilbur (39:55):
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and not only that, like onceyou've established that relationship,
it just makes the whole projectexperience that much better because
you've connected on a different level.
Eric (40:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you, you also mentioned, youknow, potentially opening up
in, in, in multiple markets.
Are, are you already there oris that the longer term vision?
Wilbur (40:15):
So that's the, the two and three year goal is to be, um, there's another
college town, uh, called Houghton, wherewe want to wanna be over there, uh,
within the next year, year and a half.
And then Iron Mountain, whichis, you know, it, it kind
of creates this triangle.
So we'll really be able to servicelike the whole western half of the
(40:38):
up, hopefully, um, you know, within,within the next three years here.
That's
Eric (40:43):
the idea.
That's great.
So what does, what does that mean?
Like what, what, what all do youhave to do to open up a new market?
Wilbur (40:49):
Yeah, so, um, that's a great question and I don't have it completely
dialed in yet, but my thought process isthat our home office will still be here.
Most of the, the bulk of the,of the, of the front end of the,
of the project will start here.
Right?
And so when we think about projectexperience, we think about right
from the first time that we makethat phone call after they come
(41:13):
through, you know, as a lead, andthen we make that first phone call.
What is the experience from that pointto 18 months or 24 months after the
project ends when we're making thatfinal warranty call and follow up, right?
So, um, that first whole pre-constructionphase, we feel like we can do
(41:34):
that from here, from our office.
We've got a staff here.
We've gotta draft our designers.
You know, we're, we're set here.
We don't necessarily need to havea whole nother office in these
other areas, but maybe it's asatellite office, so maybe we're in.
My idea is, um, you know,purchasing real estate out there.
'cause my wife and I liketo invest in real estate.
Purchasing an officebuilding in those areas.
(41:54):
Uh, and then, and then soon.
Um, and then being able to rent out aspace, uh, to our business once we move
into those areas and just have, it'dbe like a, a management like office,
like for a project manager and somebodycan check in there, um, and then have
a, have a couple guys in the field.
And really, that's all, I think allwe need to handle the big projects
(42:16):
because we put all these systemsand processes in place already.
We would, you would not beable to do anything like that.
You wouldn't be able to scale likethat if you were relying on the,
the people there to, to do all thequality oversight and in, in, and all
the, everything on their own, right?
So that's what we've really been workingon, these systems and processes so that
(42:38):
we can expand into those areas with, with,with, uh, with a little bit of overhead.
Eric (42:44):
No, it sounds like, sounds like a great plan.
And you know, I, I love the, the notionof, you know, you're, you're, you're
one, you're investing and you know,some, some, some real estate there.
You can then, you know, lease, leasethe space back to your own company.
But then also, you know, maybe,maybe you're, you know, having a
couple other tenants who knows,you know, and it's like you, you've
got some other income coming in.
You know, it's, uh, that, that's,that's a good way to sort of diversify
(43:07):
as well as, uh, enable expansion.
Yeah.
Wilbur (43:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
Eric (43:11):
I love that.
So what, what's the, what's thefive to 10 year vision here?
Where, where do you, where do yousee, you know, and, and want to
take the business kinda longer term?
Wilbur (43:20):
Mm-hmm.
Um, so we, we, as in, in part of our20 club discussions, uh, what we do
is we put together these little, um,these little kind of like TED talks, uh,
for each one of our meetings and, uh.
We did one on strategic legacyplanning, and that really got me
(43:41):
thinking about like, what is myexit plan gonna look like, right?
Um, you know, what is the companygonna look like after I've
removed myself from the company?
Or is it just gonna dissolve?
Is this gonna get auctioned off?
Like 99.9% of construction businessesright my size that are this size?
And so.
Um, the five to 10 year plan is gonnaprobably be putting in some sort of,
(44:05):
uh, maybe like an ESOP or some sortof, you know, um, transitional plan
to, you know, offload the company tothe, the, the, the current staff, the,
the current team or maybe a couple keyplayers or, um, plan for, uh, you know,
um, you know, someone else to buy.
(44:25):
I mean, our, we, our kids are atthe age right now where, you know.
15 years from now, theymight consider doing it.
My son, he's just like, yeah, I'mgonna just take over your business dad.
But he changes his mind,you know, every other day.
So, but uh, so it's, that's funny.
That's kind of the five-yearcampaign is just to get ready for
that transition outta the business,because I don't want, I wanna create.
(44:48):
A business that's gonna last, um, as the,as the new team is developing as well.
Right.
And, and, and for them to besafeguarded against, you know, just
folding up the doors and auctioningeverything off, because I've seen
that happen so many times around here.
And so to be able to put that intoplace and, and create that structure,
I think really invites, you know,talented people to join your team,
(45:10):
knowing that even if I'm gone mm-hmm.
That they're still secured.
Yeah.
So that, that's the, that's the five to 10year plan is getting that put into place.
Eric (45:21):
That sounds, sounds like a good plan.
I mean, you know, again, it's,you, you don't, you don't have
to have it all figured out.
It's just kind of, you got someoptions, some, some things you can
explore when the time is right.
But yeah.
Uh, you know, look, I, I, I reallyappreciate this, this whole conversation
will, where like, you've, you'veshared so much valuable insight
and into how you have started, youknow, from, from the very beginning.
Building this all by yourself, you know,selling the jobs, wearing the tool belt
(45:43):
to, to now spending your time, you know.
Strategically managing the business,you know, thinking about how you
can expand, how you continue togrow and, and, and, uh, you know,
just, just keep, keep excelling.
Uh, you know, I, I'm curious, you know,if, if you had to start all over today,
like is there any I. Anything that youwish you would've known that you now
know, you know, back at the beginning,that like you would share or, or give
(46:06):
some advice to any, anyone else who'searlier on, you know, how could they
achieve this same level of success that,you know, that took you 10 years, maybe?
How do they do it in five?
Like, what do you wish you would've known?
What advice do you have?
Wilbur (46:18):
Yeah.
I, I wish I would've listenedto my wife earlier on.
Don't we all?
Yeah.
I hope she doesn't watch this, but, um,she probably will, and then she need
to come back and say, yeah, I told you.
Um, but no, she, she was reallyinstrumental in the growth of the
business too, and I don't think shegets enough credit because, uh, you
know, she's sometimes on the, inthe sidelines or in the background,
but she's a big, big support for me.
(46:40):
She's always been my anchor for that.
And so, um, listening to her earlieron and not, not arguing with her
so much about, you know, like if Iwould've started job costing when she
told me to first start job costing,I probably would've understood
a little bit more earlier on.
I probably would've shifteda little bit quicker.
And so when I first started, I was,you know, all my invoicing, like
the payroll, I was doing everythingby hand and spreadsheets and I
(47:03):
mean, it was, it was exhausting.
I learned it and I understood it, but ifI would've just immediately said, okay,
I'm adopting QuickBooks Day one, right?
I would've saved myselfthree years, right?
If I would've immediately said, okay,I'm gonna jump into job tread day one
and learn this before I even start.
I mean, I would've been, Iwould've catapulted myself forward.
(47:24):
With systems and processes.
So it's just not being so stubborn,I think would've, would've, would've
really moved me forward quicker andnot thinking that I had to do it a
certain way or learn the hard way.
Yeah.
And so, uh, listening to podcasts andjust taking the advice from people that
have been down the road, I, I, I reallywish I would've done that more earlier
(47:44):
on because I, I would be, we would be10 times the company we are right now,
if I would've done that earlier on.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
Eric (47:52):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Well, hey, look, I, you know, again,I, I very much appreciate you coming
on and sharing this and giving back,you know, paying it forward, if you
will, to, to help others out there.
I mean, it, yeah, it reallydoes make a big impact.
And, you know, it's, it's been awesomebeing able to, to kind of just be a
fly on the wall here watching, youknow, you continue to build such
a great business and, you know, Ican't wait to see what the next, you
know, two to three years and how you,you know, expand into new markets.
(48:14):
I mean, it sounds like a really awesome,exciting challenge, exciting time for
the company, and I, you know, I can't,can't wait to see Make it happen, man.
Wilbur (48:21):
Yeah.
I appreciate that, Eric, and it'sbeen, uh, it's been a, uh, a real
pleasure talking with you as well.
I, I appreciate your time.
Eric (48:28):
Awesome.
Well, thank you again.
See you.
But thanks for joining us forthis episode of Builder Stories.
We hope you enjoyed the conversationand gained valuable insights that can
help you in your journey along the way.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe show and leave us a review.
And as always, if you or someone youknow has a story to share, please
(48:48):
contact us@builderstories.com.
We'd love to hear from you.
I'm Eric Fortenberry, and remember,every builder has a unique story.
Keep building yours.
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