March 5, 2025 • 42 mins
Meet Janel Swanson, owner of Wildwood Kitchen and Baths located in Lake Elmo, Minnesota. Janel shares her remarkable journey from a stay-at-home mom who transformed her century-old farmhouse kitchen into a passion project, to founding a thriving design-build firm serving the Twin Cities metro area. Janel shares how a hands-on renovation sparked her love for kitchen and bath design, leading her to become a certified designer and general contractor, all while learning the importance of delegation, networking, and streamlined project management. Her candid insights into overcoming early challenges, mastering marketing strategies, and building a talented, dedicated team offer invaluable lessons for anyone looking to carve out their own path in the construction industry.
Here are some of the key takeaways from our discussion with Janel:
- Delegating tasks early on
- Leveraging strong industry networks
- Systemizing your processes
Learn more about Wildwood Kitchen and Baths here: https://wildwoodkitchensandbaths.com/
Own a construction company and want to share your story? Apply to be on an upcoming episode of Builder Stories at https://www.builderstories.com
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome to the podcast where we take a
deep dive into the stories behind constructionbusiness leaders. We will share how they got
started, how they found success, and the lessons learnedalong the way. I'm your host, Eric Fortenberry.
Welcome to Builder Stories.
Welcome back, everybody. Today I'm here withJanelle Swanson, who is the owner of
(00:23):
Wildwood Kitchens and Baths. They'relocated in Lake Elmo, Minnesota.
She was just recently at one of our jobtrade events out there with
Anna and Riley and had such a great time, heardabout the podcast, wanted to come on,
so I'm so excited to have you on, Janelle.Welcome to Builder Stories.
Hey, Eric. Thanks so much for having me.I'm excited to be here.
Awesome. So why don't you give us just
(00:44):
little bit of a little backstory? I mean, who
are you, how'd you get into construction,and what do you guys do?
Yeah. Yeah, Janelle Swanson with Wildwood Kitchensand Baths. We are a design build firm
out of eastern suburb of the Twin Cities,
so we service the whole metro area,focusing more on the eastern
side but traveling everywhere around the cities. Webasically, long story short, is we moved into a,
(01:09):
an old farmhouse about ten years ago,and it was original
to its 1912 inception, and just couldn't standthe kitchen, and right away just
went to work demoing it without aplan. At this time,
I was a stay-at-home mom. Previously,I was in business.
I had a business degree, did the corporate thing fora few years, discovered that wasn't
(01:34):
my cup of tea, went back to schoolto be a teacher
and was a teacher for a few years. Andthen when my second child,
out of four, was born, I decided to stayhome with my kids. So
moved into this house when, yeah, about 10 years ago,and was a stay-at-home mom at the time.
And like I said, we ripped our kitchen apart. My husband atthe time was a contractor flipping homes,
(01:56):
so we did have resources in terms of helping us putting it backtogether. But during those processes is when I
really fell in love with the whole
process of
remodeling and designing
kitchens, 'cause that was the main focus of ourrenovation, was the kitchen.
So during that time, we were getting cabinet bids. Becauseour kitchen was demoed, we had no cabinets
(02:21):
ordered or designed or anything,so we ended up
becoming a dealer for one of the cabinetlines through this process.
I ended up
designing the kitchen. I came up with manydifferent configurations of it, just
loved the process, loved trying topiece it all together
and figure out what went where, use the spec book fromthe cabinet manufacturer and try to
(02:41):
figure it all out. It was stock cabinets, so trying tobe, being, uh, restricted in that way.
Got the cabinets, uh, figured out, installed, everythingwas great, and now I had this cabinet line
that
I'm like, "Might as well try to sellcabinets," like realizing what a good
markup it, it can be. So started sellingcabinets on Craigslist
and did that for like a yearsuccessfully, and
(03:04):
just drawing freehand, just shipping out cabinets topeople, like all over the Twin Cities area.
After about a year of that, I
realized it's something I really love to do.
My youngest was going to kindergarten.I knew I wanted to go
to, to do something. Uh, I, I loved teaching,wanted to go back into it, but after
(03:25):
being
away for 10 years, so much had changed withtechnology and everything.
Discovered that there was a
kitchen and bath certification program in mycommunity at the local community college. So
signed up, got my certification there, and then became...Opened my own business as a kitchen and bath
dealer, initially just selling cabinets out of my homebasically, so like my house was my showroom, which
(03:52):
was not ideal having four young kids and two dogs andtrying to keep it clean. It was not
good, but eventually, we opened, or Iopened a little showroom
in a neighboring town, outgrew that. Opened anothershowroom, outgrew that. And now we're at
my forever... what I call my forever home, wherewe're at now in Lake Elmo. And
(04:13):
so during this process, peoplealways wanted the
installation, the construction to goalong with the cabinets. So
probably after a year or two, probably two yearsafter just selling cabinets, I realized,
"I'm leaving a m- lot of money on thetable here, like not
doing the rest of the work," right, just
hi- like sending them to a contractor to do the work.So I got my general contracting license
(04:38):
and became a general contractor with our
network of subcontractors through myhusband's flipping business we had,
but that was to my advantage. I had peoplethat was, that were willing to
step up and do the work, so
that's how I got into construction.
That's awesome. I love when things get created from aneeds basis, and it's like you did this
(05:00):
for yourself in your own home, and that'show you fell in love with
the whole trade and being able to figure out
that you could become a dealer, started already getting morematerials, you started selling it and then
going back, getting a little bit more training on it, andthen becoming the full, getting the full
GC license. That's an awesome path. I love, I love thatyou truly did this out of a passion.
(05:20):
And I think ultimately that's one of the things thatI see with, with the most successful
entrepreneurs is like they genuinely, atthe end of the day, they
love what they do. And there's gonna be so
many challenges throughout the wholeprocess, but like when you know
that this is like truly what you wanna do and you're not...There's obviously a lot of other factors and
you can make good money and you can haveyour own lifestyle, but
(05:41):
man, the passion, I think, is so important to
have that, and it's really cool to hear that you've, you'vegot that at the roots of this whole business.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I agree. It's veryimportant, and I love what I do, so
definitely was the, the right path to goand I finally found after
three tries. This is my thirdcareer, and it's
finding my, finding it, I found it, likethis is what I love to do, so.
Yeah. No, it's, it's interesting. I, I hear alot of people say they, they
(06:03):
spend a little bit of time in, incorporate America and
working that, that standard deskjob, if you will,
but it's, a lot of people realize that theydon't like that and they prefer to
either get out there and do something withtheir hands or be able to work
directly with people or whatever it may be. So it's awesomethat you're able to find your own path, and
seems like it's really served you well. And nowyou have even more appreciation
for what you're doing because likeyou understand the,
(06:25):
some people are always wondering, "Is the grassgreener on the oth- other side or not?"
You already know, so that's pretty neat.
I'm curious, is your... So is yourhusband, is he still
doing the home flipping? Is h- is he still doing his ownthing, or is he now working with you?
He's not working with me. Never really has. Hewould just... Provided the,
he just had the connections-
Gotcha.
(06:45):
But yeah, he does his own thing, so we don't-
Yeah.
... work together too much. He, he'll help out often. Soright now, I'm in between project managers, so
he steps in if I need help with clientmeetings or sub walks or
getting material, checking on subs, like he, hesteps in when I ask him to, so
he's been a great support in that way.
Yeah. No, that was great that you're able to tap intothat network to find those initial
(07:09):
subs to work with you 'cause I know that
it's often a big challenge of people is trying to figureout, "How do I find people to help me?
Where do I go? Do I, do I go tothe local Home
Depot or the Sherwin-Williams and juststand outside and find
people? Do I post ads?" I think the fact that,that you found a network and a place
that you could tap into, and obviously theyweren't just totally cold either,
there, there were some sort of a, a referral that we knew thatthese people did good work. That's often a,
(07:31):
a challenge for a lot of people, so great jobfinding that and tapping into that.
Yeah, exactly. Thanks. Yeah.
Would... So what does your, what's yourteam look like today?
So today it's myself, and then I have threedesigners on staff, a bookkeeper
and a lead carpenter, and the rest I sub out,and then in the process of
(07:52):
looking for a project manager.
That's great.
So right now the designers are,they're doing a lot
(laughs) . They're doing the sales.They're doing the estimates,
or they're going to the consultations, doing the estimates,doing the sales.... doing the selections, the
design, and currently they're even
managing the project. So it's a lot.
(laughs)
(08:13):
And they're doing a great job.
They're amazing.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
That's great. So it sounds like early on you, youalso took on the design aspects and
just figured out how to do that. Isthat what you're saying?
In terms of
designing kitchens or designing spaces?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So initially I was just
hand drawing, and then when I went back to school forkitchen and bath design, I learned
(08:38):
the, a CAD program, Chief Architect.
And then each of my designers also wentthrough either an interior design
program or the kitchen and bathprogram at the
local college here.
And everybody has Chief Architectnow and uses that, so
we're able to-
That's awesome.
... create the floor plans andelevations and 3D renderings and
(08:59):
the t- uh, the 3D renderings of course are whatall the, the clients like to see to
really help visualize what their spaceis gonna look like.
Yeah. I, I, again, I see a lot ofpeople that they either
just don't do the design at all or maybe theyoutsource it, but like, it seems like
when you're able to incorporate design into the process, itreally is a great tool to help the end customer
(09:24):
be able to visualize what would thislook like, unless
you give them a couple options about havingto get in there, build it all
and find out, oh, they didn'tactually like that.
Have, have you seen that like having that... basicallyyou now have a team of designers in-house.
Sounds like they're also, uh, doing a lot more thanjust the design but has that been
really instrumental to, tohelping you accelerate
(09:44):
getting people comfortable and willing to, tosign and, and become a customer?
Definitely. I think having the ability to
show them that visual
and also, so we initially will give aballpark estimate and then we,
if they wanna move forward, we enter in, into a designagreement so that's when we spend the time working on
developing the layout and the renderings andputting all the pretty things
(10:08):
together. It's nice having, being here in ashowroom where we have access
to all the materials that will be going into thespace. Usually what we do for
when we wanna present the designto a potential
client is we'll put
ideas together, materials together,
the cabinets, countertops, tile, flooring, paint,just, and plumbing fixtures, put it all
(10:31):
together for them so that we have a starting pointand then we go from there. So it's,
we have a one-stop shop basicallywhere we can guide
clients through selections and then
also implementing thoseselections once they do
make those decisions to show it to them and what it will looklike in a 3D rendering. So that's definitely been
(10:51):
a huge selling tool to get to thatfinal contract sale.
Yeah. That's awesome. So w- for this design
agreement, so obviously you're chargingfor your design services.
Yeah.
Is that-
Yes.
... what I'm getting at?
Mm-hmm. Yep.
And then do you, a lot of people, I hear there's, "Do wecharge for it, do we not?" Or how does that design
consultation fee roll into the project?Is that kind of just a,
(11:13):
"Hey, we're gonna work with you onthe design and then
after that here's the final project," or
do you credit it in there or does that getincluded or like how do you handle that?
So that is something that werecently changed. We were
collecting like a retainer and then
we would apply that to the project if they move forward and ifthey didn't move forward, we'd just kept that as
a, a deposit or we just kept the money, because ofall the work that we put into it.
(11:39):
Recently we changed it where we
don't
credit the, the contract price. That's just,that's the design fee. And then-
Yeah.
... that, so it's a separate transactionfrom the final contract.
Yeah. So if they end up just taking the design andeverything that you've given them
and, and either, you know, don't wannamove forward right now
or wanna move forward with someone else orwhatever, I mean, at least you guys
(11:59):
aren't out, you know, that time and-
Yeah.
... money and I mean-
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah.
No, that's great. So when does, solet's say, you know,
uh, a new lead comes in, you know,what is that initial
process go and how quickly do you, do you tryto get them into the showroom?
So typically we actually
almost always go to their house first.
(12:20):
Okay.
So we try to
book an appointment right away as soon as we can. Alot of times a lead will come in.
There, there could be one of, any one ofus answering the phone, so
we'll try to make an appointment. We have a, theschedule on JobTread so everybody can see
what everybody's doing, what theavailability is.
So lot of times we'll just work with the
homeowner, find out what time works forthem, put it in the calendar
(12:43):
and then we'll talk about it, who has the capacity totake another lead right now and then,
excuse me, that person gets assigned a lead.
And then depending on the scope of theproject, like we, we do try to
qualify the leads a little bit before we take thetime to go out to the house, but
one thing I will say is the majority ofour leads are within like a
10 mile radius of our showroom. We've beenreally lucky, mm, 20 miles but
(13:05):
usually within a close, probably 95% of our work islike really close in our community
so it's not too much of a burden to we'renot driving an hour to go
do a consultation that we don't know ifwe're gonna get or not. So
we don't have a problem typically going to a house to do aconsultation 'cause like I said, we're just doing,
excuse me, a, a ballpark estimate.We're not putting
(13:25):
a ton of time into it, and then if they wanna move forward we dothe design agreement. But going back to that,
we do try to qualify them too, so getan idea whether or not
they, their budget is in line with, ifit's in line with what
the project is probably gonna cost. So we try to get that outof them before we waste either of our time.
(13:46):
Sure. And how often do you find thatyou get into it and
they go through the design process but then they just,they don't end up wanting to move forward?
Not very often. I'd say-
Yeah.
... once we have a design agreement, almost
I'd say nine out of 10 we'll moveinto a contract.
That's great. So that must mean you're, you're really,you've got the, the ballpark pricing
(14:09):
dialed in to the point that we're,we're, we're either gonna,
we're, we're in, we're in budget or out of budget at thatpoint and let's make that call then and
doesn't, ho- hopefully you don'tget strung along to-
Yeah.
... to ultimately later be told, "Actually, wecan't afford this," or whatever.
Yeah, I feel like our ballparkestimates are pretty accurate.
We've come up with a good template in JobTreadthat's really helped us, like
have formulas in place and margins in place so we knowwhere, where we need to be, where we,
(14:34):
where it's gonna make sense and then it's usuallywithin maybe 10%, give or take. But
I'd say the biggest, the biggest unknown is the trades.So after we get that d- that d- like,
the design deposit, then we'll conduct a trade walk withour s- with our subs and then we'll get
more nailed down numbers and also what theselection process if they want
(14:57):
Cambria versus Granite, that's gonna be a pricedifference. So we try to get all those
decisions made during that designagreement phase so that
they know this is what their project's gonna costand it's usually, like I said, pretty
close to that ballpark that weoriginally gave them.
That's great. Do, do you ever get into it thoughand have to use change orders or
(15:18):
the scope changes or are you guys able to reallynail it down in the design phase?
No, there, yeah, we do.
It seems like every job there'schange orders. (laughs)
(laughs)
Some more than others but I'd saythat's usually because of
things that
nobody could see. A wall is removed and we didn't knowthere was a vent in that wall. It was just-
Yeah.
... random and didn't make sense, or just-
(15:40):
(laughs)
... or plumbing. There's
usually surprises when you open up walls or takeout soffits or things like that. So
often we'll have change orders for thingslike that, the, the unforeseen.
And then, and then there's other situations wherethe customer just wants to add
to the scope, which is great. And so we'll-
Yeah.
... issue change orders for that too andoccasionally, I shouldn't say occasionally, but
(16:03):
we try to get as many selections taken care of pri- priorto the contracts, final contract price but
sometimes...... we move forward without the tilebacksplash being chosen or whatnot. So
if it's something that's outside ofthe allowance that
we have given them, then there'll beanother change order.
That's great. And so, I'm, I'mcurious how... When, when
you give them an allowance and then,obviously, if they make
(16:25):
a selection that's over the allowance,that's, that, that's a
change order and they're gonna paythe difference. But
if they make a selection that's under the allowance,how do you handle that situation?
So we're transparent with our materials. So how we do ourestimates is we do labor as a lump sum
and then materials we itemize out. So then-
Yeah.
So we tell people like, "This is just a ballparkallowance, like middle of the road
(16:46):
type of product." If you choose something moreexpensive, obviously you're gonna be paying-
Mm-hmm.
... more money for it. If it's less expensive,then we would credit that amount.
We would-
Gotcha.
Yeah. So if the allowance is $1,000 and it only costs 800, ourcost, then we would give up $200 credit for that.
And h- how long, like what's the average, uh, you know,duration of, of these projects for you?
(17:11):
Um, so it's gonna vary a lot depending on the project.We do a lot of kitchens and baths. Um,
so a bathroom is typically four to six weeks.A kitchen, usually around 12.
We do whole home
remodels, so that obviously that's gonna
add more to the timeline. Depending on the scope,maybe around six months to a year.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
And how many jobs are you typicallyrunning at one time?
(17:32):
That can vary a lot too, but I'd sayon average around
five probably. Yeah. You've been-
Alright.
...
up to 20, but I'd say typically it'sbetween five and eight, uh, like
in-flight construction projects, and thenwe'll have others that might,
(17:53):
we might be working on the design part of it and it hasn't,it, the production hasn't started yet, so.
Sure.
How far out are you typically havingto, to schedule people?
Probably, uh, like a couple of months.It's, uh, it's not too
bad 'cause I feel like we have enough resources,enough people who can... If our
kind of in-house guys are busy,then we have other
companies like business-to-businesscompanies that we use
(18:16):
that we can, that we outsource stuff.
I'm curious, where do you feel like most of
your leads are coming from? How are peoplefinding out about you? Is it-
Um.
... is it your website, word of mouth,are you running ads?
Yeah, and that's one of my struggles right now, isfiguring out, like, the best way
to market. So that's something I'm also working onright now 'cause I haven't really
done much
(18:37):
paid marketing. I do run Google Ads, I'dsay the majority, but I,
I,
I do it myself. I just do the payper click. It's not-
Yeah.
I, I, I think I could be doing it better, but I'd saythe majority of our leads come from
just a Google search or internet search.
Yeah.
And then we do get a lot of referrals and alot of word of mouth too.
(18:57):
Yeah, that's great. I know the, uh, the,
in the advertising, that's a total,
that's, that's like a whole nother, uh,
ball of wax there, trying to figure out that and thenhaving to manage it and monitor it, and
you can very quickly... I, I'll never getmy first, uh, business, I
was like, "Hey, let's go figure out this Google Adthing." And I threw, it was like a
$5,000 budget in there, per, permonth, and, uh,
just, or actually, I don't even know ifI had capped it, but
(19:18):
I think I had just started the ads, and then
I, I, like a few, I forgot about it,watched it for a week
and then I don't know, something happened, forgotabout it, and I logged back in a couple
weeks later and I had blown through the whole$5,000 and was like, "Wait,
I don't have a single lead to show for it. Whathappened here?" Like, I was expecting
all these customers and, andleads to come in and
I know it can be, uh, it can be a very tricky thing and,and we've worked with many people who've,
(19:40):
some of them better than others, and
I think that when you reallyfigure out that, that
right kind of ad and targeting and the keywords, like you canbe very successful. And especially with a local
presence and being able to target justan area can be huge.
Yeah, I think that's my next, one of my next steps is hiring amarketing agency to help me with that, 'cause-
Yeah. (laughs)
... I've just been doing it on my own and it's, I... Itwas great like the last... Things were busy
(20:05):
right after COVID and now things have slowed down. We'restill, our pipeline is fine, but just to
increase those leads. I know I'm to thatpoint where I need to
hire some outside help with that.
Yeah. I, I, I definitely,definitely recommend it. It
sounds like you've gotten, gotten thebusiness to the point
of where you are today, which you'redoing great. I've seen
(20:25):
kind of awesome traction and progress, but totake it to that next level that,
that's where I would recommend, yeah, finding somebodywho's a professional at, at just that.
And, and I know there's a lot of marketing agencies.Some of them will, will do the whole thing
and then some people just focus on Google Ads or just FacebookAds, and so I think it's great to interview
a bunch of different people and say, "Hey, so tellme, how will you define if a campaign
(20:45):
is successful? How will you workwith us to, to
show us the progress we're making? Are, are welooking at this weekly, biweekly, monthly?
What do you think the customer acquisition cost couldbe?" Like getting some sort of way, sort of
common set of questions where you caninterview a couple different firms.
Obviously on the, the Job Share marketplace we have somegreat partners who can do all this, but
you know, I think it's importantyou find the right
partner for you and your businesswho's got that experience
(21:07):
of doing that local, the localtargeting, local
advertising, and, and I assume you have a Google MyBusiness profile set up already there too?
Mm-hmm. I do, yeah.
Yeah. That's, that's another great tool, justcontinually feed that thing-
Yeah.
... just uploading photos just like it's your socialmedia. I think that can be really powerful.
Yeah, and I forget to do that. Anotherreason to hire someone. (laughs)
Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's sointeresting like seeing how
(21:28):
it's like the more you feed Google, the more it rewards you,and it's feeding it on all fronts. Adding more
content to your website that they canindex and crawl. Adding
more photos to your Google MyBusiness and, and, and
running ads. Running ads is a great wayto just like instantly
say, "Hey, Google, I'm here." And they start toshow you a whole lot more, uh,
actively, even if you end up cutting backon your ads. Like you still
created that awareness for them, whichis really powerful.
(21:49):
Yeah. I'll have to check out themarketplace. I haven't done that yet
for marketing, so I'll take a look at that.
So I'm curious, when you think back over the lastseveral years running this, like
what would you say have been your biggest challengesbuilding this business from the ground up?
I would say
probably just, um,
I guess the biggest thing is just not havingconstruction, a construction background.
(22:12):
So that's, like I said, luckily I've been blessedto have, excuse me, people in my
network and community that havetaken on that role
of
leading a job and doing the construction, so Ihaven't... And, but that, it's also scary 'cause
me lacking that knowledge, I'm putting a lot oftrust in that person that they
(22:32):
know what they're doing. That's probably been one of mybiggest challenges. And then another is
just trying to do it all myself. I, for five years I didn'thave any employees, it was just myself, so
I was doing literallyeverything. My books, my,
the market-
Mm-hmm.
Organic marketing, but marketing,
social media, going, calling clients,
just everything. Going to theconsultations, doing the
(22:53):
estimates, project managing, doingthe schedule. So
definitely just trying to do it allmyself was a big challenge.
Yeah. No, I mean, it's... You, you've defined thetypical entrepreneurial journey.
Let's put on all the hats, let's do whatever ittakes. Everything is on your plate, and
I think it's, it's interesting kind of seeingthough, it, it, you obviously you,
(23:15):
you were successful, you made it happen, you gotto the point where now you're
able to afford to have a team of people andcontinuing to grow the team.
Early on it's your back isagainst the wall and
you have no choice but to just fight andfight and keep going, and
you, you made it happen, but you certainly... I'llgo ahead and make the assumption
you very much appreciate having a team of people that are ableto help you and offload some of those things.
(23:35):
Definitely. And I would say that was
one of the scariest things for me as a business owner,like hiring my first employee. Just
hadn't really thought about it, I just thoughtI could do this all myself.
Mm-hmm.
And
I guess, yeah, that was a big move for me, justtaking that leap of hiring someone.
Like an actual employee. Not a sub, but
an actual employee that I have on my payroll.(laughs) And, but that was
(23:57):
probably one of the scariest decisions I made, but alsoone of the best decisions that I made.
How, how did you know the time was right?
I had been just
burnt out, struggling, like just working like aroundthe clock, and I knew I needed help.
In my mind I thought, I could just hire-... on the river, or ona boat, or something like that, and do a team
(32:29):
activity. I do wanna start incorporating more, maybe once aquarter, but that's what we have right now.
Yeah.
And then when the, when the times areright, like we've gone to
the kitchen and bath industry show together. One ofmy designers and I went to Job-Trek
Connect together. The whole team went to Spainlast fall to visit Cosentino-
(32:49):
(laughs)
... in Almeria, Spain, so that wasvery fun. That was
a good team bonding experience. So, when theopportunities are there and it makes sense, just
taking advantage of opportunitieslike that as well.
Yeah. That's awesome. That's incredible.
(laughs)
I've never heard of anyone taking their entire team over toSpain. Yeah. How do I join the team? (laughs)
(33:10):
Yeah. It was a good experience.
That is... Yeah. That's great. So, when you think about whereyou wanna take the business, what's the longer
term goal? Where do you wanna see, see the companyin, in, in the next five, 10 years?
Yeah. I'd say
I don't see any other way other than scaling and improvingbecause I just... That's just me. I have a
(33:31):
growth mindset. I always wanna be learning and evolving andnever just plateauing or s-... I just... Always
looking to grow and get better andimprove. Becoming like the go-to
kitchen and bath remodelers in thearea. Another kind of
vision I have is the showroom that I have now
I purchased during COVID, and it's splitinto two sections. So,
(33:54):
it worked out really well in thebeginning 'cause I was able
to rent the other side out to offsetthe mortgage payment.
But I'd like to get to the point where we can
take... Expand and take the whole space and createa larger showroom, and eventually
collaborate more with builders and otherremodelers and designers, and
(34:16):
get more into the design aspect of it. Still do theconstruction, but have more of our focus be like
designing
and cabinets.
Yeah. That's great. And I think there's a lot
of opportunity for you to, to find other builders andcontractors that you can partner with.
That could be a great lead source and a greatopportunity to be a partner with them and
(34:39):
maybe they're bringing you deals, you may bebringing them some deals.
I think there's so many opportunities.A lot of times people,
I, I see them feeling, "My, my neighbor is my
competitor, and I can't talk to them, and we'recompeting on every deal." And it's
there's... That... You gotta have theabundance mentality of,
"Man, there is enough work for all of us. And if wework together, then we can help everyone
benefit and ultimately deliver agreat product and really
(35:00):
elevate the, the game for everyone inthe industry." And
I think that's just looking for thoseopportunities to partner and collaborate.
A, a lot of people who... Again, you, you've got thatdesign horsepower, partner with realtors,
with people who they've got a customer
who's about to buy a home butdoesn't love the kitchen.
If, if they can bring you into the whole mixand say, "Hey. Look, we could,
we could get that done, and let's roll that,
(35:20):
this remodel into the wholeprocess," that could be
a great way to find additional,additional leads for you.
Yeah. That's a great idea. Mm-hmm.
That's great. Look, I, I reallyappreciate you
coming on and, and sharing everything. And I'mcurious, like, when you think back,
is there anything in particular youwish you would have known
when you started the business that, that you now know thatmaybe might help someone else out there
(35:43):
who's earlier on, trying to get, gettheir feet under them?
Or just any kinda general advice that, thatyou might have for others?
Yeah. A lot.
(laughs)
A lot of things. One thing, like I alreadymentioned, delegate early
so you're not burning yourselfout. And then also
network, collaborate with others. And thenthe biggest thing for me was
(36:04):
establishing
more... Establishing a system and, and processes.For the longest time, we were doing a
schedule on a whiteboard and taking notes in anotebook, and things getting
lost and customers getting upset. Subs being on job sites andnot having access to plans or even knowing
customers' names or phone numbers, and just details gettinglost because we didn't have systems in place.
(36:31):
So, that's been the biggest game changer for us, wasfinding a project management system
through JobTread where we can
now just have processes, beorganized. We have
our main schedule. We have everything in one place.And we're trying to incorporate as many
things and get rid of our Google Docs
(36:51):
as, as much as we can to have everything in thatone central hub of JobTread. And
you guys do a great job at providing a lot of the nutsand bolts of what we need, but also having
partners that, you know, to...That... Partners
that we can collaborate with too for thoseintegrations that might be
needed for our business, notnecessarily that another
(37:13):
business would need. So it's nice that it'sversatile and you can, um,
reach out to those other partners
in the marketplace to integrate, to make it
good for your business. So yeah. That's...I'd say that's one thing I
wish I would have done a lot sooner, was have a systemwhere we can keep everything in one place.
(37:33):
Did you ha-... How did you... What led you to go and say, "Ineed to go get something in place"? Was there like
just some moment, or how did youhave that realization?
Just like a lot of things falling through thecracks. I said just disorganization and
subs being on the job and not having plans, or nothaving a scope, not having specifications.
(37:53):
Just we knew that we needed something but we didn'tknow what, so we did try some different
CRMs out there. We tried BuilderTrend.It was just like too
much. It was too confusing. It was more
than we needed for our, for the size of our team andour business. So we did go through a few
different trials and ofdifferent programs, and
finding JobTread has been such alifesaver. It's perfect for us. So
(38:16):
yeah. Just having that onecentral communication
hub too with the clients and thesubcontractors and designers, like
everything is in one place, and it'sjust been a lifesaver.
That's awesome. Lo- obviously I love hearing that. It's... Ithink at the end of the day, it's great advice
for, for anyone out there,especially if you're
starting your business off. It's all aboutbuilding the right foundation
(38:38):
for you to scale the, the company. You gotta be able tohave the systems, the processes in place
to then be able to bring people on. Ifeverything's in your head
and you're just doing it all and you haven't documentedanything and you don't have anything,
any tools and training to provide others,then it's a lot harder
to be able to build that team. And everyone has thisepiphany at a different point and a different
(38:58):
moment. Whenever you can, being able toset yourself up for success
will ultimately really help you in the long run to, tobe able to build out the team and, and
the business, and make sure thatyou're hitting your profit
goals, and you're, you're, your numbers.Like you're operating
how you want this business to, to go, versusjust being very reactive and
selling and churning and doing all this work and notunderstanding why you're not making any
(39:20):
more money. It, it takes getting organized and puttingthose things in place that will help you
ensure that you are gonna hit your goals.
Yeah. That's been-
So I think-
... one of the biggest, um, factors for me too, just likefinally understanding my numbers, which JobH-
Jo- JobTread has allowed me to do. It'sjust so easy to see,
looking at the budget versus actual numbers, how it'sset up. We can look at the dashboard
(39:43):
any given day, and you can see like whereyour budget is compared to
what you're actually spending. It's beengreat. It's just really helped me
understand my numbers so much better.
I, I love that, and I hope everyone elseout there can learn from
these experiences and from hearing howJanelle's talked about
she went at it alone for so long, andwishes that she would've
(40:05):
been able to build the team alittle bit earlier on
and not have to kind of stay so siloed,because that's such a common
theme that I hear with entrepreneurs, like
you're just heads down, grinding, andsometimes you gotta take a
step back, come up for air, lookaround and say, "Hey. Uh,
are there others out there that can help me? Can I learn?Can I join a community? Can I collaborate
with partners?" There's, there are people
(40:26):
that can help you. And, and oftentimes,
look, as, as a leader, our job is to make sure we get allthe right people around the table. Like
we don't have to do everything ourselves. And
oftentimes if you want to make sure thatyou're doing everything great,
you're gonna need to trust people. You're gonnaneed to build a team or find partners
that you can, that you can trust and give them veryspecific roles and responsibilities
(40:49):
so that you can execute on that, and you can build avery successful, very profitable business.
But you gotta put all the right pieces together,and you gotta have that foundation.
So I, I really appreciate you coming on
and sharing your story and your journey going through this.It sounds like you've, you've worked very
hard over the last several years, and
you've gotten a great, great team built now, agreat foundation. You guys are
(41:09):
continuing to grow. I, I, I can't wait to see you get thatproject manager in there that can bring
even more experience and kind of hopefully provide a littlebit of relief to, to the rest of your team. And
wearing all the hats, it sounds...And that's... It's a
great problem to have, right? I, I'd ratherhave everybody too busy than not
busy enough. And it's just exciting though to
see what you've been able to accomplishover the last several years,
and to hear about your goals and where youwanna take the business.
(41:30):
I can't wait to, to see the success that youhave in the coming years, and
just appreciate the opportunity to be, to be
one of your partners here and just along for theride to see you making it happen.
Thank you. Thank you very much. I have
i- immense respect for you andthe company that
you've built. And I, uh... It's an honor to be a gueston your podcast. I really appreciate it.
Thank you so much for coming on.I'll talk to you soon.
(41:51):
Okay. Bye-bye.
(rock music plays) Thanks for joining us forthis episode of Builder Stories.
We hope you enjoyed the conversation
and gained valuable insights that can help youin your journey along the way.
Welcome to the podcast where we take a
deep dive into the stories behind constructionbusiness leaders. We will share how they got
started, how they found success, and the lessons learnedalong the way. I'm your host, Eric Fortenberry.
Welcome to Builder Stories.
Welcome back, everybody. Today I'm here withJanelle Swanson, who is the owner of
(00:23):
Wildwood Kitchens and Baths. They'relocated in Lake Elmo, Minnesota.
She was just recently at one of our jobtrade events out there with
Anna and Riley and had such a great time, heardabout the podcast, wanted to come on,
so I'm so excited to have you on, Janelle.Welcome to Builder Stories.
Hey, Eric. Thanks so much for having me.I'm excited to be here.
Awesome. So why don't you give us just
(00:44):
little bit of a little backstory? I mean, who
are you, how'd you get into construction,and what do you guys do?
Yeah. Yeah, Janelle Swanson with Wildwood Kitchensand Baths. We are a design build firm
out of eastern suburb of the Twin Cities,
so we service the whole metro area,focusing more on the eastern
side but traveling everywhere around the cities. Webasically, long story short, is we moved into a,
(01:09):
an old farmhouse about ten years ago,and it was original
to its 1912 inception, and just couldn't standthe kitchen, and right away just
went to work demoing it without aplan. At this time,
I was a stay-at-home mom. Previously,I was in business.
I had a business degree, did the corporate thing fora few years, discovered that wasn't
(01:34):
my cup of tea, went back to schoolto be a teacher
and was a teacher for a few years. Andthen when my second child,
out of four, was born, I decided to stayhome with my kids. So
moved into this house when, yeah, about 10 years ago,and was a stay-at-home mom at the time.
And like I said, we ripped our kitchen apart. My husband atthe time was a contractor flipping homes,
(01:56):
so we did have resources in terms of helping us putting it backtogether. But during those processes is when I
really fell in love with the whole
process of
remodeling and designing
kitchens, 'cause that was the main focus of ourrenovation, was the kitchen.
So during that time, we were getting cabinet bids. Becauseour kitchen was demoed, we had no cabinets
(02:21):
ordered or designed or anything,so we ended up
becoming a dealer for one of the cabinetlines through this process.
I ended up
designing the kitchen. I came up with manydifferent configurations of it, just
loved the process, loved trying topiece it all together
and figure out what went where, use the spec book fromthe cabinet manufacturer and try to
(02:41):
figure it all out. It was stock cabinets, so trying tobe, being, uh, restricted in that way.
Got the cabinets, uh, figured out, installed, everythingwas great, and now I had this cabinet line
that
I'm like, "Might as well try to sellcabinets," like realizing what a good
markup it, it can be. So started sellingcabinets on Craigslist
and did that for like a yearsuccessfully, and
(03:04):
just drawing freehand, just shipping out cabinets topeople, like all over the Twin Cities area.
After about a year of that, I
realized it's something I really love to do.
My youngest was going to kindergarten.I knew I wanted to go
to, to do something. Uh, I, I loved teaching,wanted to go back into it, but after
(03:25):
being
away for 10 years, so much had changed withtechnology and everything.
Discovered that there was a
kitchen and bath certification program in mycommunity at the local community college. So
signed up, got my certification there, and then became...Opened my own business as a kitchen and bath
dealer, initially just selling cabinets out of my homebasically, so like my house was my showroom, which
(03:52):
was not ideal having four young kids and two dogs andtrying to keep it clean. It was not
good, but eventually, we opened, or Iopened a little showroom
in a neighboring town, outgrew that. Opened anothershowroom, outgrew that. And now we're at
my forever... what I call my forever home, wherewe're at now in Lake Elmo. And
(04:13):
so during this process, peoplealways wanted the
installation, the construction to goalong with the cabinets. So
probably after a year or two, probably two yearsafter just selling cabinets, I realized,
"I'm leaving a m- lot of money on thetable here, like not
doing the rest of the work," right, just
hi- like sending them to a contractor to do the work.So I got my general contracting license
(04:38):
and became a general contractor with our
network of subcontractors through myhusband's flipping business we had,
but that was to my advantage. I had peoplethat was, that were willing to
step up and do the work, so
that's how I got into construction.
That's awesome. I love when things get created from aneeds basis, and it's like you did this
(05:00):
for yourself in your own home, and that'show you fell in love with
the whole trade and being able to figure out
that you could become a dealer, started already getting morematerials, you started selling it and then
going back, getting a little bit more training on it, andthen becoming the full, getting the full
GC license. That's an awesome path. I love, I love thatyou truly did this out of a passion.
(05:20):
And I think ultimately that's one of the things thatI see with, with the most successful
entrepreneurs is like they genuinely, atthe end of the day, they
love what they do. And there's gonna be so
many challenges throughout the wholeprocess, but like when you know
that this is like truly what you wanna do and you're not...There's obviously a lot of other factors and
you can make good money and you can haveyour own lifestyle, but
(05:41):
man, the passion, I think, is so important to
have that, and it's really cool to hear that you've, you'vegot that at the roots of this whole business.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I agree. It's veryimportant, and I love what I do, so
definitely was the, the right path to goand I finally found after
three tries. This is my thirdcareer, and it's
finding my, finding it, I found it, likethis is what I love to do, so.
Yeah. No, it's, it's interesting. I, I hear alot of people say they, they
(06:03):
spend a little bit of time in, incorporate America and
working that, that standard deskjob, if you will,
but it's, a lot of people realize that theydon't like that and they prefer to
either get out there and do something withtheir hands or be able to work
directly with people or whatever it may be. So it's awesomethat you're able to find your own path, and
seems like it's really served you well. And nowyou have even more appreciation
for what you're doing because likeyou understand the,
(06:25):
some people are always wondering, "Is the grassgreener on the oth- other side or not?"
You already know, so that's pretty neat.
I'm curious, is your... So is yourhusband, is he still
doing the home flipping? Is h- is he still doing his ownthing, or is he now working with you?
He's not working with me. Never really has. Hewould just... Provided the,
he just had the connections-
Gotcha.
(06:45):
But yeah, he does his own thing, so we don't-
Yeah.
... work together too much. He, he'll help out often. Soright now, I'm in between project managers, so
he steps in if I need help with clientmeetings or sub walks or
getting material, checking on subs, like he, hesteps in when I ask him to, so
he's been a great support in that way.
Yeah. No, that was great that you're able to tap intothat network to find those initial
(07:09):
subs to work with you 'cause I know that
it's often a big challenge of people is trying to figureout, "How do I find people to help me?
Where do I go? Do I, do I go tothe local Home
Depot or the Sherwin-Williams and juststand outside and find
people? Do I post ads?" I think the fact that,that you found a network and a place
that you could tap into, and obviously theyweren't just totally cold either,
there, there were some sort of a, a referral that we knew thatthese people did good work. That's often a,
(07:31):
a challenge for a lot of people, so great jobfinding that and tapping into that.
Yeah, exactly. Thanks. Yeah.
Would... So what does your, what's yourteam look like today?
So today it's myself, and then I have threedesigners on staff, a bookkeeper
and a lead carpenter, and the rest I sub out,and then in the process of
(07:52):
looking for a project manager.
That's great.
So right now the designers are,they're doing a lot
(laughs) . They're doing the sales.They're doing the estimates,
or they're going to the consultations, doing the estimates,doing the sales.... doing the selections, the
design, and currently they're even
managing the project. So it's a lot.
(laughs)
(08:13):
And they're doing a great job.
They're amazing.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
That's great. So it sounds like early on you, youalso took on the design aspects and
just figured out how to do that. Isthat what you're saying?
In terms of
designing kitchens or designing spaces?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So initially I was just
hand drawing, and then when I went back to school forkitchen and bath design, I learned
(08:38):
the, a CAD program, Chief Architect.
And then each of my designers also wentthrough either an interior design
program or the kitchen and bathprogram at the
local college here.
And everybody has Chief Architectnow and uses that, so
we're able to-
That's awesome.
... create the floor plans andelevations and 3D renderings and
(08:59):
the t- uh, the 3D renderings of course are whatall the, the clients like to see to
really help visualize what their spaceis gonna look like.
Yeah. I, I, again, I see a lot ofpeople that they either
just don't do the design at all or maybe theyoutsource it, but like, it seems like
when you're able to incorporate design into the process, itreally is a great tool to help the end customer
(09:24):
be able to visualize what would thislook like, unless
you give them a couple options about havingto get in there, build it all
and find out, oh, they didn'tactually like that.
Have, have you seen that like having that... basicallyyou now have a team of designers in-house.
Sounds like they're also, uh, doing a lot more thanjust the design but has that been
really instrumental to, tohelping you accelerate
(09:44):
getting people comfortable and willing to, tosign and, and become a customer?
Definitely. I think having the ability to
show them that visual
and also, so we initially will give aballpark estimate and then we,
if they wanna move forward, we enter in, into a designagreement so that's when we spend the time working on
developing the layout and the renderings andputting all the pretty things
(10:08):
together. It's nice having, being here in ashowroom where we have access
to all the materials that will be going into thespace. Usually what we do for
when we wanna present the designto a potential
client is we'll put
ideas together, materials together,
the cabinets, countertops, tile, flooring, paint,just, and plumbing fixtures, put it all
(10:31):
together for them so that we have a starting pointand then we go from there. So it's,
we have a one-stop shop basicallywhere we can guide
clients through selections and then
also implementing thoseselections once they do
make those decisions to show it to them and what it will looklike in a 3D rendering. So that's definitely been
(10:51):
a huge selling tool to get to thatfinal contract sale.
Yeah. That's awesome. So w- for this design
agreement, so obviously you're chargingfor your design services.
Yeah.
Is that-
Yes.
... what I'm getting at?
Mm-hmm. Yep.
And then do you, a lot of people, I hear there's, "Do wecharge for it, do we not?" Or how does that design
consultation fee roll into the project?Is that kind of just a,
(11:13):
"Hey, we're gonna work with you onthe design and then
after that here's the final project," or
do you credit it in there or does that getincluded or like how do you handle that?
So that is something that werecently changed. We were
collecting like a retainer and then
we would apply that to the project if they move forward and ifthey didn't move forward, we'd just kept that as
a, a deposit or we just kept the money, because ofall the work that we put into it.
(11:39):
Recently we changed it where we
don't
credit the, the contract price. That's just,that's the design fee. And then-
Yeah.
... that, so it's a separate transactionfrom the final contract.
Yeah. So if they end up just taking the design andeverything that you've given them
and, and either, you know, don't wannamove forward right now
or wanna move forward with someone else orwhatever, I mean, at least you guys
(11:59):
aren't out, you know, that time and-
Yeah.
... money and I mean-
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah.
No, that's great. So when does, solet's say, you know,
uh, a new lead comes in, you know,what is that initial
process go and how quickly do you, do you tryto get them into the showroom?
So typically we actually
almost always go to their house first.
(12:20):
Okay.
So we try to
book an appointment right away as soon as we can. Alot of times a lead will come in.
There, there could be one of, any one ofus answering the phone, so
we'll try to make an appointment. We have a, theschedule on JobTread so everybody can see
what everybody's doing, what theavailability is.
So lot of times we'll just work with the
homeowner, find out what time works forthem, put it in the calendar
(12:43):
and then we'll talk about it, who has the capacity totake another lead right now and then,
excuse me, that person gets assigned a lead.
And then depending on the scope of theproject, like we, we do try to
qualify the leads a little bit before we take thetime to go out to the house, but
one thing I will say is the majority ofour leads are within like a
10 mile radius of our showroom. We've beenreally lucky, mm, 20 miles but
(13:05):
usually within a close, probably 95% of our work islike really close in our community
so it's not too much of a burden to we'renot driving an hour to go
do a consultation that we don't know ifwe're gonna get or not. So
we don't have a problem typically going to a house to do aconsultation 'cause like I said, we're just doing,
excuse me, a, a ballpark estimate.We're not putting
(13:25):
a ton of time into it, and then if they wanna move forward we dothe design agreement. But going back to that,
we do try to qualify them too, so getan idea whether or not
they, their budget is in line with, ifit's in line with what
the project is probably gonna cost. So we try to get that outof them before we waste either of our time.
(13:46):
Sure. And how often do you find thatyou get into it and
they go through the design process but then they just,they don't end up wanting to move forward?
Not very often. I'd say-
Yeah.
... once we have a design agreement, almost
I'd say nine out of 10 we'll moveinto a contract.
That's great. So that must mean you're, you're really,you've got the, the ballpark pricing
(14:09):
dialed in to the point that we're,we're, we're either gonna,
we're, we're in, we're in budget or out of budget at thatpoint and let's make that call then and
doesn't, ho- hopefully you don'tget strung along to-
Yeah.
... to ultimately later be told, "Actually, wecan't afford this," or whatever.
Yeah, I feel like our ballparkestimates are pretty accurate.
We've come up with a good template in JobTreadthat's really helped us, like
have formulas in place and margins in place so we knowwhere, where we need to be, where we,
(14:34):
where it's gonna make sense and then it's usuallywithin maybe 10%, give or take. But
I'd say the biggest, the biggest unknown is the trades.So after we get that d- that d- like,
the design deposit, then we'll conduct a trade walk withour s- with our subs and then we'll get
more nailed down numbers and also what theselection process if they want
(14:57):
Cambria versus Granite, that's gonna be a pricedifference. So we try to get all those
decisions made during that designagreement phase so that
they know this is what their project's gonna costand it's usually, like I said, pretty
close to that ballpark that weoriginally gave them.
That's great. Do, do you ever get into it thoughand have to use change orders or
(15:18):
the scope changes or are you guys able to reallynail it down in the design phase?
No, there, yeah, we do.
It seems like every job there'schange orders. (laughs)
(laughs)
Some more than others but I'd saythat's usually because of
things that
nobody could see. A wall is removed and we didn't knowthere was a vent in that wall. It was just-
Yeah.
... random and didn't make sense, or just-
(15:40):
(laughs)
... or plumbing. There's
usually surprises when you open up walls or takeout soffits or things like that. So
often we'll have change orders for thingslike that, the, the unforeseen.
And then, and then there's other situations wherethe customer just wants to add
to the scope, which is great. And so we'll-
Yeah.
... issue change orders for that too andoccasionally, I shouldn't say occasionally, but
(16:03):
we try to get as many selections taken care of pri- priorto the contracts, final contract price but
sometimes...... we move forward without the tilebacksplash being chosen or whatnot. So
if it's something that's outside ofthe allowance that
we have given them, then there'll beanother change order.
That's great. And so, I'm, I'mcurious how... When, when
you give them an allowance and then,obviously, if they make
(16:25):
a selection that's over the allowance,that's, that, that's a
change order and they're gonna paythe difference. But
if they make a selection that's under the allowance,how do you handle that situation?
So we're transparent with our materials. So how we do ourestimates is we do labor as a lump sum
and then materials we itemize out. So then-
Yeah.
So we tell people like, "This is just a ballparkallowance, like middle of the road
(16:46):
type of product." If you choose something moreexpensive, obviously you're gonna be paying-
Mm-hmm.
... more money for it. If it's less expensive,then we would credit that amount.
We would-
Gotcha.
Yeah. So if the allowance is $1,000 and it only costs 800, ourcost, then we would give up $200 credit for that.
And h- how long, like what's the average, uh, you know,duration of, of these projects for you?
(17:11):
Um, so it's gonna vary a lot depending on the project.We do a lot of kitchens and baths. Um,
so a bathroom is typically four to six weeks.A kitchen, usually around 12.
We do whole home
remodels, so that obviously that's gonna
add more to the timeline. Depending on the scope,maybe around six months to a year.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
And how many jobs are you typicallyrunning at one time?
(17:32):
That can vary a lot too, but I'd sayon average around
five probably. Yeah. You've been-
Alright.
...
up to 20, but I'd say typically it'sbetween five and eight, uh, like
in-flight construction projects, and thenwe'll have others that might,
(17:53):
we might be working on the design part of it and it hasn't,it, the production hasn't started yet, so.
Sure.
How far out are you typically havingto, to schedule people?
Probably, uh, like a couple of months.It's, uh, it's not too
bad 'cause I feel like we have enough resources,enough people who can... If our
kind of in-house guys are busy,then we have other
companies like business-to-businesscompanies that we use
(18:16):
that we can, that we outsource stuff.
I'm curious, where do you feel like most of
your leads are coming from? How are peoplefinding out about you? Is it-
Um.
... is it your website, word of mouth,are you running ads?
Yeah, and that's one of my struggles right now, isfiguring out, like, the best way
to market. So that's something I'm also working onright now 'cause I haven't really
done much
(18:37):
paid marketing. I do run Google Ads, I'dsay the majority, but I,
I,
I do it myself. I just do the payper click. It's not-
Yeah.
I, I, I think I could be doing it better, but I'd saythe majority of our leads come from
just a Google search or internet search.
Yeah.
And then we do get a lot of referrals and alot of word of mouth too.
(18:57):
Yeah, that's great. I know the, uh, the,
in the advertising, that's a total,
that's, that's like a whole nother, uh,
ball of wax there, trying to figure out that and thenhaving to manage it and monitor it, and
you can very quickly... I, I'll never getmy first, uh, business, I
was like, "Hey, let's go figure out this Google Adthing." And I threw, it was like a
$5,000 budget in there, per, permonth, and, uh,
just, or actually, I don't even know ifI had capped it, but
(19:18):
I think I had just started the ads, and then
I, I, like a few, I forgot about it,watched it for a week
and then I don't know, something happened, forgotabout it, and I logged back in a couple
weeks later and I had blown through the whole$5,000 and was like, "Wait,
I don't have a single lead to show for it. Whathappened here?" Like, I was expecting
all these customers and, andleads to come in and
I know it can be, uh, it can be a very tricky thing and,and we've worked with many people who've,
(19:40):
some of them better than others, and
I think that when you reallyfigure out that, that
right kind of ad and targeting and the keywords, like you canbe very successful. And especially with a local
presence and being able to target justan area can be huge.
Yeah, I think that's my next, one of my next steps is hiring amarketing agency to help me with that, 'cause-
Yeah. (laughs)
... I've just been doing it on my own and it's, I... Itwas great like the last... Things were busy
(20:05):
right after COVID and now things have slowed down. We'restill, our pipeline is fine, but just to
increase those leads. I know I'm to thatpoint where I need to
hire some outside help with that.
Yeah. I, I, I definitely,definitely recommend it. It
sounds like you've gotten, gotten thebusiness to the point
of where you are today, which you'redoing great. I've seen
(20:25):
kind of awesome traction and progress, but totake it to that next level that,
that's where I would recommend, yeah, finding somebodywho's a professional at, at just that.
And, and I know there's a lot of marketing agencies.Some of them will, will do the whole thing
and then some people just focus on Google Ads or just FacebookAds, and so I think it's great to interview
a bunch of different people and say, "Hey, so tellme, how will you define if a campaign
(20:45):
is successful? How will you workwith us to, to
show us the progress we're making? Are, are welooking at this weekly, biweekly, monthly?
What do you think the customer acquisition cost couldbe?" Like getting some sort of way, sort of
common set of questions where you caninterview a couple different firms.
Obviously on the, the Job Share marketplace we have somegreat partners who can do all this, but
you know, I think it's importantyou find the right
partner for you and your businesswho's got that experience
(21:07):
of doing that local, the localtargeting, local
advertising, and, and I assume you have a Google MyBusiness profile set up already there too?
Mm-hmm. I do, yeah.
Yeah. That's, that's another great tool, justcontinually feed that thing-
Yeah.
... just uploading photos just like it's your socialmedia. I think that can be really powerful.
Yeah, and I forget to do that. Anotherreason to hire someone. (laughs)
Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's sointeresting like seeing how
(21:28):
it's like the more you feed Google, the more it rewards you,and it's feeding it on all fronts. Adding more
content to your website that they canindex and crawl. Adding
more photos to your Google MyBusiness and, and, and
running ads. Running ads is a great wayto just like instantly
say, "Hey, Google, I'm here." And they start toshow you a whole lot more, uh,
actively, even if you end up cutting backon your ads. Like you still
created that awareness for them, whichis really powerful.
(21:49):
Yeah. I'll have to check out themarketplace. I haven't done that yet
for marketing, so I'll take a look at that.
So I'm curious, when you think back over the lastseveral years running this, like
what would you say have been your biggest challengesbuilding this business from the ground up?
I would say
probably just, um,
I guess the biggest thing is just not havingconstruction, a construction background.
(22:12):
So that's, like I said, luckily I've been blessedto have, excuse me, people in my
network and community that havetaken on that role
of
leading a job and doing the construction, so Ihaven't... And, but that, it's also scary 'cause
me lacking that knowledge, I'm putting a lot oftrust in that person that they
(22:32):
know what they're doing. That's probably been one of mybiggest challenges. And then another is
just trying to do it all myself. I, for five years I didn'thave any employees, it was just myself, so
I was doing literallyeverything. My books, my,
the market-
Mm-hmm.
Organic marketing, but marketing,
social media, going, calling clients,
just everything. Going to theconsultations, doing the
(22:53):
estimates, project managing, doingthe schedule. So
definitely just trying to do it allmyself was a big challenge.
Yeah. No, I mean, it's... You, you've defined thetypical entrepreneurial journey.
Let's put on all the hats, let's do whatever ittakes. Everything is on your plate, and
I think it's, it's interesting kind of seeingthough, it, it, you obviously you,
(23:15):
you were successful, you made it happen, you gotto the point where now you're
able to afford to have a team of people andcontinuing to grow the team.
Early on it's your back isagainst the wall and
you have no choice but to just fight andfight and keep going, and
you, you made it happen, but you certainly... I'llgo ahead and make the assumption
you very much appreciate having a team of people that are ableto help you and offload some of those things.
(23:35):
Definitely. And I would say that was
one of the scariest things for me as a business owner,like hiring my first employee. Just
hadn't really thought about it, I just thoughtI could do this all myself.
Mm-hmm.
And
I guess, yeah, that was a big move for me, justtaking that leap of hiring someone.
Like an actual employee. Not a sub, but
an actual employee that I have on my payroll.(laughs) And, but that was
(23:57):
probably one of the scariest decisions I made, but alsoone of the best decisions that I made.
How, how did you know the time was right?
I had been just
burnt out, struggling, like just working like aroundthe clock, and I knew I needed help.
In my mind I thought, I could just hire-... on the river, or ona boat, or something like that, and do a team
(32:29):
activity. I do wanna start incorporating more, maybe once aquarter, but that's what we have right now.
Yeah.
And then when the, when the times areright, like we've gone to
the kitchen and bath industry show together. One ofmy designers and I went to Job-Trek
Connect together. The whole team went to Spainlast fall to visit Cosentino-
(32:49):
(laughs)
... in Almeria, Spain, so that wasvery fun. That was
a good team bonding experience. So, when theopportunities are there and it makes sense, just
taking advantage of opportunitieslike that as well.
Yeah. That's awesome. That's incredible.
(laughs)
I've never heard of anyone taking their entire team over toSpain. Yeah. How do I join the team? (laughs)
(33:10):
Yeah. It was a good experience.
That is... Yeah. That's great. So, when you think about whereyou wanna take the business, what's the longer
term goal? Where do you wanna see, see the companyin, in, in the next five, 10 years?
Yeah. I'd say
I don't see any other way other than scaling and improvingbecause I just... That's just me. I have a
(33:31):
growth mindset. I always wanna be learning and evolving andnever just plateauing or s-... I just... Always
looking to grow and get better andimprove. Becoming like the go-to
kitchen and bath remodelers in thearea. Another kind of
vision I have is the showroom that I have now
I purchased during COVID, and it's splitinto two sections. So,
(33:54):
it worked out really well in thebeginning 'cause I was able
to rent the other side out to offsetthe mortgage payment.
But I'd like to get to the point where we can
take... Expand and take the whole space and createa larger showroom, and eventually
collaborate more with builders and otherremodelers and designers, and
(34:16):
get more into the design aspect of it. Still do theconstruction, but have more of our focus be like
designing
and cabinets.
Yeah. That's great. And I think there's a lot
of opportunity for you to, to find other builders andcontractors that you can partner with.
That could be a great lead source and a greatopportunity to be a partner with them and
(34:39):
maybe they're bringing you deals, you may bebringing them some deals.
I think there's so many opportunities.A lot of times people,
I, I see them feeling, "My, my neighbor is my
competitor, and I can't talk to them, and we'recompeting on every deal." And it's
there's... That... You gotta have theabundance mentality of,
"Man, there is enough work for all of us. And if wework together, then we can help everyone
benefit and ultimately deliver agreat product and really
(35:00):
elevate the, the game for everyone inthe industry." And
I think that's just looking for thoseopportunities to partner and collaborate.
A, a lot of people who... Again, you, you've got thatdesign horsepower, partner with realtors,
with people who they've got a customer
who's about to buy a home butdoesn't love the kitchen.
If, if they can bring you into the whole mixand say, "Hey. Look, we could,
we could get that done, and let's roll that,
(35:20):
this remodel into the wholeprocess," that could be
a great way to find additional,additional leads for you.
Yeah. That's a great idea. Mm-hmm.
That's great. Look, I, I reallyappreciate you
coming on and, and sharing everything. And I'mcurious, like, when you think back,
is there anything in particular youwish you would have known
when you started the business that, that you now know thatmaybe might help someone else out there
(35:43):
who's earlier on, trying to get, gettheir feet under them?
Or just any kinda general advice that, thatyou might have for others?
Yeah. A lot.
(laughs)
A lot of things. One thing, like I alreadymentioned, delegate early
so you're not burning yourselfout. And then also
network, collaborate with others. And thenthe biggest thing for me was
(36:04):
establishing
more... Establishing a system and, and processes.For the longest time, we were doing a
schedule on a whiteboard and taking notes in anotebook, and things getting
lost and customers getting upset. Subs being on job sites andnot having access to plans or even knowing
customers' names or phone numbers, and just details gettinglost because we didn't have systems in place.
(36:31):
So, that's been the biggest game changer for us, wasfinding a project management system
through JobTread where we can
now just have processes, beorganized. We have
our main schedule. We have everything in one place.And we're trying to incorporate as many
things and get rid of our Google Docs
(36:51):
as, as much as we can to have everything in thatone central hub of JobTread. And
you guys do a great job at providing a lot of the nutsand bolts of what we need, but also having
partners that, you know, to...That... Partners
that we can collaborate with too for thoseintegrations that might be
needed for our business, notnecessarily that another
(37:13):
business would need. So it's nice that it'sversatile and you can, um,
reach out to those other partners
in the marketplace to integrate, to make it
good for your business. So yeah. That's...I'd say that's one thing I
wish I would have done a lot sooner, was have a systemwhere we can keep everything in one place.
(37:33):
Did you ha-... How did you... What led you to go and say, "Ineed to go get something in place"? Was there like
just some moment, or how did youhave that realization?
Just like a lot of things falling through thecracks. I said just disorganization and
subs being on the job and not having plans, or nothaving a scope, not having specifications.
(37:53):
Just we knew that we needed something but we didn'tknow what, so we did try some different
CRMs out there. We tried BuilderTrend.It was just like too
much. It was too confusing. It was more
than we needed for our, for the size of our team andour business. So we did go through a few
different trials and ofdifferent programs, and
finding JobTread has been such alifesaver. It's perfect for us. So
(38:16):
yeah. Just having that onecentral communication
hub too with the clients and thesubcontractors and designers, like
everything is in one place, and it'sjust been a lifesaver.
That's awesome. Lo- obviously I love hearing that. It's... Ithink at the end of the day, it's great advice
for, for anyone out there,especially if you're
starting your business off. It's all aboutbuilding the right foundation
(38:38):
for you to scale the, the company. You gotta be able tohave the systems, the processes in place
to then be able to bring people on. Ifeverything's in your head
and you're just doing it all and you haven't documentedanything and you don't have anything,
any tools and training to provide others,then it's a lot harder
to be able to build that team. And everyone has thisepiphany at a different point and a different
(38:58):
moment. Whenever you can, being able toset yourself up for success
will ultimately really help you in the long run to, tobe able to build out the team and, and
the business, and make sure thatyou're hitting your profit
goals, and you're, you're, your numbers.Like you're operating
how you want this business to, to go, versusjust being very reactive and
selling and churning and doing all this work and notunderstanding why you're not making any
(39:20):
more money. It, it takes getting organized and puttingthose things in place that will help you
ensure that you are gonna hit your goals.
Yeah. That's been-
So I think-
... one of the biggest, um, factors for me too, just likefinally understanding my numbers, which JobH-
Jo- JobTread has allowed me to do. It'sjust so easy to see,
looking at the budget versus actual numbers, how it'sset up. We can look at the dashboard
(39:43):
any given day, and you can see like whereyour budget is compared to
what you're actually spending. It's beengreat. It's just really helped me
understand my numbers so much better.
I, I love that, and I hope everyone elseout there can learn from
these experiences and from hearing howJanelle's talked about
she went at it alone for so long, andwishes that she would've
(40:05):
been able to build the team alittle bit earlier on
and not have to kind of stay so siloed,because that's such a common
theme that I hear with entrepreneurs, like
you're just heads down, grinding, andsometimes you gotta take a
step back, come up for air, lookaround and say, "Hey. Uh,
are there others out there that can help me? Can I learn?Can I join a community? Can I collaborate
with partners?" There's, there are people
(40:26):
that can help you. And, and oftentimes,
look, as, as a leader, our job is to make sure we get allthe right people around the table. Like
we don't have to do everything ourselves. And
oftentimes if you want to make sure thatyou're doing everything great,
you're gonna need to trust people. You're gonnaneed to build a team or find partners
that you can, that you can trust and give them veryspecific roles and responsibilities
(40:49):
so that you can execute on that, and you can build avery successful, very profitable business.
But you gotta put all the right pieces together,and you gotta have that foundation.
So I, I really appreciate you coming on
and sharing your story and your journey going through this.It sounds like you've, you've worked very
hard over the last several years, and
you've gotten a great, great team built now, agreat foundation. You guys are
(41:09):
continuing to grow. I, I, I can't wait to see you get thatproject manager in there that can bring
even more experience and kind of hopefully provide a littlebit of relief to, to the rest of your team. And
wearing all the hats, it sounds...And that's... It's a
great problem to have, right? I, I'd ratherhave everybody too busy than not
busy enough. And it's just exciting though to
see what you've been able to accomplishover the last several years,
and to hear about your goals and where youwanna take the business.
(41:30):
I can't wait to, to see the success that youhave in the coming years, and
just appreciate the opportunity to be, to be
one of your partners here and just along for theride to see you making it happen.
Thank you. Thank you very much. I have
i- immense respect for you andthe company that
you've built. And I, uh... It's an honor to be a gueston your podcast. I really appreciate it.
Thank you so much for coming on.I'll talk to you soon.
(41:51):
Okay. Bye-bye.
(rock music plays) Thanks for joining us forthis episode of Builder Stories.
We hope you enjoyed the conversation
and gained valuable insights that can help youin your journey along the way.
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