September 10, 2025 • 59 mins
Gary Muehling’s journey into construction started with failure but it was that setback that shaped his future success. After an early attempt at running his own roofing and siding business fell apart, Gary went to work for larger companies where he learned how strong processes, compliance, and sales systems create sustainable growth. In 2019, he launched MI Remodelers with a mission to combine roofing expertise with full-service residential remodeling, and today his company successfully straddles both types of work. Known as “The Integrity Guys,” Gary shares how his business balances sales and project management to earn more than $4 million in annual revenue.
In this episode you will learn:
- How Gary maintains a $2.5 million backlog of work
- The process he uses to divide sales and project management for maximum efficiency
- How his client interactions create a higher close ratio
- Why he goes against an industry trend and offers free design services
- The systems that allow MI Remodelers to scale to $4M in annual revenue while maintaining quality
Resources:
Visit MI Remodelers website here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eric (00:00):
Welcome to the podcast where we take a deep dive into the stories
behind construction business leaders.
We will share how they got started,how they found success, and the
lessons learned along the way.
I'm your host, Eric Fortenberry.
Welcome to Builder Stories.
Welcome back everybody.
Today.
(00:20):
I'm really excited.
I've got a special guest withus, Gary Muehling, who is the
president of MI Remodelers.
They're located in Rochester, Michigan.
They actually have three locations,uh, across Oakland County.
So, you know, reallyexcited to have Gary on.
He is been a rockstar.
Got a great team.
They've done a lot of awesome work.
Been with us for, for agood little while too.
So, you know, wanna, wanna welcomeyour builder stories, Gary.
(00:43):
Thank you very much for having me, Eric.
Absolutely.
So why don't you give us a little bitof background, who you are, how'd you
get into construction in the firstplace, and what led you to start
up the, the remodeling business.
Thank you.
Gary (00:55):
Yeah.
Um, this is my 20th year in constructionand I, uh, started a business when I
was young and failed and I went to workfor larger businesses and saw how they.
I did things differentlyand I, uh, reopened and, uh,
(01:16):
tried again at construction.
And over the years, I've, uh,really learned a lot and I've
always loved helping people and sobeing a home remodeling contractor
allows me to help people every day.
And we do a lot more than justchanging out old doorknobs.
We change people's lives.
Eric (01:39):
It's awesome, man.
So you, you actually, you startedyour own business and then, you
know, you, you said it failed.
I mean, like, what, what happened?
Like what do you, you know, now,now that you know, everything you
do, like when you look back on that,like what do you think, like, was
there anything in, in, you know, inparticular that, that caused you to fail?
Or just a bunch of things, or like
Gary (01:58):
what, how do you reflect on My, my career has been
primarily focused on roofing.
As a residential roofer 20 years ago,um, I was taught how roofing was done
by fellow installers who may or maynot have done things right, may or may
not have been trained on how to do itproperly, may or may not have known code.
(02:22):
And so I, I learned how not todo it before I learned how it's
supposed to be done properly.
Had the good benefit of, uh,working with certain Teed Roofing.
For many years, I've been trainedon how, in how to install shingles.
How to install ventilation, um, at themanufacturer's level, they have a lot
(02:44):
of great educational opportunities andcredentialing programs, and that's with
every roofing manufacturer pretty much.
Sure.
Eric (02:54):
So what, what ended up though, like, you know, kind of, how, how did you know
when you, you needed to shut down thebusiness and go work for someone else?
Gary (03:02):
Well, when I was young and stupid and broke, um, I had no
business being the owner of a business.
And, uh, as a young 20 something yearold, I didn't have the proper licensing.
I didn't know what.
Types of insurance was required.
I had no idea how to prevent liabilityor how to pull a building permit.
(03:29):
And, uh, working for larger,more established companies that
win and follow all the rules.
I learned how the opposite.
End of the spectrum worked when youhave a leads machine, when you have
a sales process, when you have, uh,layers of management and supervision.
(03:49):
And so ultimately, uh, what's worked wellfor me is I've been able to divide my,
my business into two separate sectors.
We really have a marketing salesbusiness, and we have a project
management and installation business.
Nice.
So dividing those gave methe ability to start tracking
(04:13):
the daily results separately.
And those are two departments thatI, I personally feel like, uh, run
really efficiently and are profitable.
Eric (04:26):
Yeah.
So you, you know, you, you did somethingreally smart there, but going back.
Getting experience and being ableto learn from others and seeing the
successes that you were able to thentake and apply to your business that
you started back up after, after,you know, sounds like a couple years
of, of working for someone else.
What, what role did you have when youwent back to work for someone else?
Gary (04:47):
Thank you for asking that.
So after, uh, only being in businessfor a couple years as a roofing
and siding company and failing,um, I then went to work for, um,
an established company as sales.
Got to see how they run appointments andmake, uh, make demonstrations and, uh,
turn those into yeses and win business.
(05:10):
And, uh, then I was promotedto sales management.
So I got to see how the generalmanager of a sales business that had
several offices operated, I got to, uh,participate in seeing satellite offices
created at multiple big name companies.
And, um, those experiences werevery valuable for me because, uh,
(05:35):
corporate, um, companies that arelarger and nationally owned have a lot
of processes in place that smaller,less established companies have.
And so I, I learned, um, on a highlevel how to run a tight ship.
That's awesome.
Um, but things changeda lot over the years.
Back then, our primary leadsources were canvassing.
(06:00):
TV and phone room.
Phone room, huh?
Before the Facebook of theworld and things like that.
I'm pretty sure.
Yeah.
Must have,
Eric (06:10):
must have been a little bit harder.
Gary (06:13):
Well, I think it actually is, is harder now because to compete on the
digital arena is, is a new challenge fora lot of non-tech savvy great tradesmen.
Eric (06:28):
Yeah.
That, uh, that, that, that makes sense.
Are, are you, are you puttingyourself into that bucket there?
I
Gary (06:34):
am less tech savvy than probably most people that are under 40.
Yeah.
But I think most carpenters areprobably not very tech savvy.
Eric (06:48):
Sure.
So what year was it when you, when yourefound and started up the new business?
I opened Mi
Gary (06:54):
Remodelers in 2019.
Okay.
Uh, prior to that I was theVP of a roofing company.
Actually, that company that, uh, failedoriginally, later we reopened it.
I operated as the VP and, uh,that company we were able to grow.
(07:16):
I think today they doaround, uh, 6 million or so.
Oh, wow.
Eric (07:21):
Okay.
And so are you, are you stillinvolved in that as well as
Gary (07:24):
Uh, no.
Uh, so.
In 2019 when I opened my own company,um, right before COVID, um, I, I
moved on, uh, from the VP of thatcompany because I wanted to do
things beyond roofing and siding.
Sure.
And as a general contractor today, I buildbeautiful garages and additions and we
(07:47):
pour decorative concrete looks like stone.
And get to participate in a numberof different, very satisfying,
um, capacities every day.
Interior and exterior.
Complete residential remodeling,um, is what Mi Remodelers
offers the public every day.
And by providing design servicesand helping clients visualize their
(08:12):
renovation, we really find a wayto help a client envision the end.
Before we're mid construction.
Eric (08:24):
Yeah.
So it's, uh, so it sounds like thattransition from from roofing was.
It was a, it was, it was a lot moreexciting of, of the type of work.
I mean, obviously, you know,putting, you know, ripping a
roof and putting it back on.
I mean, you know, now, you know,homeowner's not, you know, hanging
out up there and, you know, getting,you know, it's, it's, it's kind
of one of those basic necessities.
Right.
And, you know, being able to getinto the remodeling side, you,
(08:45):
you, you, you seem to have a littlebit more passionate about that.
Gary (08:48):
Well, being a professional roofer, you have to become capable
at performing structural carpentry.
Sometimes like replacing all thesheets of wood underneath the shingles.
Uh, sometimes there's siding andtrim work where the roof meets the
siding that has to be addressed.
(09:09):
Uh, there's tons ofcustom metal bending work.
And then if you replace a lot of roofs,all these homes typically have drywall
or plaster damage or sometimes do, sowhat I found is that roofers try and.
Stay replacing roofs, but they don'toften wanna do some of the elements
(09:33):
that are required to do a roof properly.
For example, we remediate mold,so we inspect attics when we
find moisture impaction, werecommend cleaning and remediating.
Replacing wood that has mold onit, wiping down rafters and joists,
(09:58):
upgrading moisture impacted insulation.
So all these things most roofersdon't wanna do are part of a
proper solution for homeowners toreceive a better quality result.
A lot of roof jobs that roofers do later.
(10:18):
There will be a leak from thesiding because where the roofing
and the siding meet the rooferended his work with the roof and
now there's a need for a siding guy.
Hmm.
So by doing the roofing and thesiding together, we ultimately
prevent any future issues thatwouldn't be covered by their warranty.
Eric (10:42):
It's interesting.
That's, uh, really great to know.
I'm actually about to, uh, have, havemy roof, uh, replaced next week, so I
appreciate the, uh, the insight there.
Do you have any dormers?
Uh, do we have any dormers?
I don't, I don't know
Gary (10:57):
the, there are, uh, the, the majority of the roof is flat area,
not valleys, not up against walls and.
Usually the details are like aroundthe chimney and around the walls
of dormers that many roofers getit wrong, but I'm sure you've got
a good roofer in your area already.
Eric (11:17):
Yeah.
So you're talking about kinda likethe where, where like the window
and the sort of it would come out.
Gary (11:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's uh.
Um, a, a scenario where a, yeah.
A roof would extend outof an existing roof.
And so there's a wall maybe with windows.
Eric (11:32):
Yep.
Yep.
So we do, we do have one of thoseright there in the front, which
has also been a source of, uh, of,of a leak force in the past, um,
Gary (11:41):
side that dormer at the same time, if you can.
Okay.
Because if they tear off the siding, thentheir underlayments can go up the wall.
Hmm.
And it'll be like a new constructionflashing setup, and it'll be,
you know, watertight forever.
Yeah.
That would be a, that wouldbe a good thing to do.
Yeah.
If, because later if you do thesiding over, when they take off the
(12:04):
siding, wherever the roofer endedtheir material, it's only an inch
or two up past the transition point.
Sure.
Eric (12:12):
Yeah.
We, uh, we, we've actually had onehell of a story, uh, dealing with
this kind of, this whole roofing area.
Some, some insulation.
My, my daughter's room.
Is right there, kind of under thator right next to that where that,
uh, that, that dormer there is.
And, uh, she has a little, a little smalllittle attic space attached to her closet.
And, uh, we were, we were strugglingto, uh, keep her room temperature the
(12:34):
right, the right, you know, kind of,it was either too hot or too cold.
And, uh, we, we were like, oh,well we just need to insulate
this, this little attic area.
And, uh, my, my neighbor, few doorsdown, owned an insulation company,
said, oh, we'll just come in and do somespray foam, kind of, you know, just.
Spray foam the whole thingup and it'll be good to go.
And we're like, all right, cool.
You know, and so let her comein and, and, and did that.
(12:54):
But ultimately there wasn't theproper ventilation in there.
And so the, the spray foam never curedand ended up like, getting into my, my
daughter's, uh, like into her system.
We, we actually found she had like somecrazy level of flame retardant in her,
in, in, in her, uh, in, in her body.
And, uh, and then to make thingsworse, we had the little, um.
(13:14):
A little bit of a leak that was coming in.
And so like, it created amold situation up in there.
And so now she's got, you know,flame retardant, we had mold in her
system and a lot of our systems and,uh, it was just like this huge like
catastrophe that like we've beendealing with for years and years.
And so, you know, we're, we'refinally on the last step where we, we
know we need a new roof altogether.
We had already made therepairs, so that one area, but.
(13:35):
I've, I've, I've had multiple peoplepoint out that like the way that the,
you know, that the roof has kind ofbeen repaired was, it was more of a
patch job versus trying to get it,you know, done, done the right way.
And so, you know, we've just reacheda point where we need and just,
we're just redoing the whole thingand, uh, hopefully kind of put
this, this whole thing behind us.
But definitely been a, been, beena really crappy situation for, for,
(13:55):
for my wife and, and, and, and familyand I to, to have to deal with.
Gary (14:00):
Well, when you replace the roof, make sure that the roofing
contractor understands that any sheetsof wood that have moisture impaction
on them should be removed, whetherthey're structurally intact or not.
If there's discoloration, if there'swater stains, the the right way
to replace that roof would be tores sheet that area with new wood.
(14:23):
Yeah, that's, uh, and if there'sany insulation that's moisture
impacted, that should definitelycome out while the roof's open.
That way that gross air comes out thetap through the roof instead of out
through, you know, through your homeone day if it ever has to be remediated.
Yeah.
Eric (14:41):
Well that's, we're, so it's, it's, it's been a long journey for us.
I've, I've got a job tradecontractor doing it for us.
I'm, I'll get the, uh, get, get to seethe play by play and everything, and
the, you know, and, and the daily logsand the photos and everything there.
But yeah, you know,it's, it's interesting.
I, I. I do see in general, like, youknow what, what we've been learning is
we've been getting into the, the roofingspace a lot more, and I think one of
the, the unique advantages of Job Shredhas been that like, you know, we can
(15:05):
handle more than just roofing projects.
And so we we're starting to see rooferslike kind of wanting to take on more of
those, you know, remodel type projects,getting a little bit more on the interior,
you know, sounds like kind of similar,similar situation for you is that.
Is that, is that a common trend in theindustry or do you see a lot of roofers
just not ever wanna, wanna move intothe inside or take on additional work?
Gary (15:26):
Well, I feel like I'm giving away the secret sauce of,
uh, how I find my best success.
But a number of roofing projectsthat I end up winning are not leads
that people found me for their roof.
Hmm.
So as a general contractor.
I replace bathrooms and kitchens.
(15:47):
I design additions and build them.
And so I, I get a lot of people whowanna refinish finish their basement,
and through the process of designingtheir basement, we determine that their
electrical service needs to be upgraded.
And then we find that inside their attic,maybe there's some discoloration from
(16:08):
a bath vent that's not prop properly.
Ducting, that's a real popularproblem in our area 'cause we
have freezing temperatures.
So, um, when the hot air from yourshower enters a really cold attic, it
condensates and that's the way they builthomes in our area for a hundred years.
(16:30):
Once we've built a relationship with aclient enough to inspect their attic,
we're we're able to find a lot ofmoisture impaction on the underside
of roofs, and we have a solution.
Replace the roof, replace the sheets ofwood, replace water impacted insulation,
wipe down, uh, with antimicrobial alllumber that has stains on it like trusses.
Eric (16:59):
So you, you guys are coming in and you may be brought in for one
particular kind of remodel project,but it sounds like you're really doing
like a full assessment of the, of theentire home, the living situation.
Is that, is that true?
Is that kind of the, the approach here?
Gary (17:14):
Yeah.
Um, what I found in all my career isevery company I ever worked at were,
were more of a niche company andthey wanted to stay in their lane.
A hundred times someone would buysiding for $40,000 and we'd have
to turn 'em away for the deck.
Sorry.
We, we just do siding.
Hire a deck guy.
(17:35):
Yeah.
And the siding in thedeck actually go together.
Like you, you build the deck and then youflash the deck and then you side the wall.
Yep.
So to be a sider andrefuse to build a deck.
You miss a lot of revenue andit's great business if you already
have a $40,000 siding project toalso build a 250 square foot deck.
(17:59):
Sure.
So for, um, for me to make a commitmentto learn framing, carpentry, and
exterior and interior, I get my ownpersonal builder's license and, uh,
develop a, a commitment to learning.
I don't send people away now that wouldlike a new deck with their siding.
(18:19):
I actually recommend it.
Yeah.
I think that every deck should be coverednow with a real nice metal roof even.
Eric (18:28):
Yeah, I'm sure.
Those metal roofs, uh, you know,I, I, I, my, my parents have one.
They love it, you know, it's obviouslya lot more expensive, but they,
uh, they, they absolutely love it.
Gary (18:38):
Metal is forever.
Eric, you could get a metal roofthat in 50 years is still, uh, musket
Brown, pre-finished, um, similarto an automobile exterior finish.
Guess,
Eric (18:51):
guess if you got your forever home, then, uh, makes total sense to do that.
Gary (18:55):
Well, I bet the longer you're responsible for a home, the more
a metal roof would be justifiablebecause after an asphalt roof has.
Reached its time and been replacedagain at your age, you know,
you'd be replacing it again.
So in your age you'd buy tworoofs or one an expensive one.
(19:19):
Now that next roof in 20 yearswill be a lot more expensive too.
I'm sure.
No was inflation.
So what, four?
What's that?
I imagine it'll be triple the price in20 or 30 years for a roof replacement.
Yeah.
So what's your,
Eric (19:37):
like when, when you get a new lead, like what, what's your, what's your full
process look like from someone findingyou, you know, you, you got a website
or are you converting 'em there, likekind of, you know, get getting into it?
Like, are you, you know, you'repre-qualifying, are you going out on site?
Kinda what's, what's the wholesales process look like for you?
Yeah.
Gary (19:55):
Well, I'm, I am, uh.
Learning the job tread, um,system and, uh, to maximize it.
We use Job Tread for, um, for ourappointment results for building
out all of our quotes and thenthe entire project management.
(20:17):
But we also work with go high levelfor all for our lead, um, engagement.
And so we have, you know, basicautomations when someone requests a
quote to prompt them via text and emailto schedule a time for, um, for a quote.
(20:39):
And we collect information via textor on the phone or via email, and
ultimately build out a, a detail forour estimator to work from as we.
Determine if this is an eligible customer.
We currently go out and meet with ourcustomers in order to give them a quote
(21:01):
and, uh, we're really excited to learn theShin Fu Tom Rebar, um, contractor fight
way as we are entering battleground now.
Nice.
Eric (21:14):
That's a great, great, great program.
Is, uh, would, would you say that,like, have, have you always been the
one that's, that's doing the sales ordo you have other people on your team
that are, that are also doing sales?
Gary (21:26):
So, I wish that I could do the sales.
It's probably the mostfun part of my business.
Meeting people, uh, learning about theirneeds and their wants for a project.
Understanding what.
Pain points they have and thenultimately helping them find a solution.
It's been the mostsatisfying part of my career.
(21:49):
Um, as I grew from, um, from just doingsales, I evolved into project management
because I understood the process ofsales, um, that allowed me to understand.
How to take that sale througha a successful installation.
Sure.
And initially when I started inconstruction 20 years ago, I started
(22:11):
out doing installations and sales.
As my small company.
So when I worked in sales later, Ihad an advantage 'cause I understood
a little more about how a roof orhow a siding project is installed.
And so after doing sales, being aproject manager, uh, was something
(22:31):
I had to experience in order to everown a business and run it right.
Um, now that I understand alot more about construction.
Not only am I more effective as asales person, but I'm better capable of
teaching salespeople or, uh, consultantshow to assist clients every day.
Sure.
(22:52):
'cause they have a problem and we havea solution and we can understand their
problem and understand what would bea, an agreeable solution at that point,
we could be considered for the project.
Yep.
So what, what, what, whatdoes your team look like?
Your, your full team right now?
We have four consultants thatmeet with homeowners every day.
(23:12):
And, um, most of our consultantsspecialize in roofing, siding, uh,
fencing, gutters, and a couple ofour consultants, myself included,
we could design your addition,your deck, your sunroom, complete
home remodel, new home build.
(23:33):
So, um.
We offer a lot of things and wetry to, um, accommodate everyone.
We have a, um, a bit of design backgroundand experience, so we love to take
clients through the process of acomplicated remodel and educate them.
Um, what we found is that withthe right information, many people
(23:56):
that start contracting and startexcavating and building things would
never have started the process.
Um, they think that a pricepoint is realistic and people
don't invest in educating them.
They're looking for low hanging fruit.
Yeah.
(24:17):
And so, um, I on the other hand enjoyworking with people through the process to
understand the reality upfront beforehandrather than, uh, through the process of
change orders and extras along the way.
And honestly, this is my favorite timeto shout out job tread because what
(24:38):
you guys have given our business issomething that is absolutely priceless.
How we can catalog our, our products andour services as a general contractor,
I, I can operate 500 line items fordifferent amounts that things cost.
And I can do this from my desk when I'mlistening to the Dave Ramsey show at.
(25:02):
8:00 AM and then my reps are able tojust plop in the codes and provide
estimates quickly, digitally, concisely,and in a fashion that people are
able to interact with them quickly.
A lot of customers complain that thething contractors alike struggle with
(25:26):
is lack of communication and lack ofstructure, and so Job tread provides
us that and we get more complimentsfrom high level, high-end clients,
the very particular specific detailedengineers and attorneys of the world.
(25:48):
So, um, shout out to you and your companyfor building such an awesome product.
Eric (25:53):
Yeah.
Appreciate that.
That's awesome.
Well, what's your, you know, forthose, for those high end projects,
what would you say your average,your average price point is there?
Gary (26:01):
So, uh, just over 80,000 is our average job and we, um,
we this year are on pace to doaround 4 million in business.
Nice.
Um, I think that.
Because we're a major renovationscontractor, we typically have around
a $2.5 million backlog of work.
(26:23):
And so some projects are sold this weekand completed in four weeks, but some
projects are sold this week and designedover the winter and permitted next
spring and ground broken on next summer.
Hmm.
So, um, what's been great with Job Treadis learning how to manage my jobs from I
(26:50):
can, I can run my business from my cellphone with job tread, what would require
a desktop computer for many things.
Otherwise, it's awesome.
Eric (27:01):
So, do you have the design capabilities in-house or are you, are
you partnering with the, you know.
Third party designers to, to do
Gary (27:10):
the, well, I guess that would depend.
And by the way, AI really, uh, uh.
Makes things easier in that regard.
Um, but we spent a long timedeveloping design guides for the
14 different things we offer a lot.
So if I were invited out to designyour, uh, deck or porch, I might show
(27:31):
you a wood frame deck, a concretepour deck, maybe a brick paver patio
at grade, maybe a brick paver patio.
Raised, maybe that could have, um, aroof over it, but maybe just railings.
Hmm.
So there's 10,000 options that could haveglass enclosure, like, um, a solarium.
(27:55):
So, um, we have a, a lot of standarddesign and rendering access.
Um.
Hover, for example, is a greatone for roofing and siding.
Yep.
So, um, we have a partnership with Hover.
We love to show someone in personwhile we're sitting with them,
what that yellow siding, whatthat blue roof would look like.
(28:21):
And uh, if you were really stronglyinterested in hiring me for your James
Hardy, and I show you that these colors,these seven colors, if you pick one of
them, they're a standard price point.
Or we can go up.
You can pick this differentprice point for custom colors.
It enables, uh, customers to makebuying decisions sooner, and I believe
(28:46):
the statistic is somewhere around 20%.
People spend more when they can seesamples and renderings of their projects.
Yeah.
I believe that.
So for roofing and siding,it's easy, but it's a lot more
difficult for interior remodeling.
Sure.
Um, if I were to replace your kitchencabinets and take out a wall and
(29:10):
change the, the floor plan for howyou use your kitchen, um, that's
something that could be very custom.
To design.
So we used to charge money to do design,and then a lot of times we would design
beautiful things and give them a quote.
And ultimately the price of whatwe designed isn't within their
(29:33):
budget and we would lose the sale.
Yeah.
Now what we do is we offer designservices for free to everyone.
Hmm.
So if you hire our company, we gothrough a process of multiple people
working through, um, the options.
Along the way to make sure that all thechoices are ones that make the most sense
(29:56):
and we invest extra time to learn whattheir future projects might consist of.
Uh, we're replacing a roof, forexample, and they have old siding.
And if you were to pick your roofcolor, Eric, based on your current Sid.
You might not love it 20 years down theroad or 10 years down the road when you
paint your siding a different color.
(30:16):
Sure.
So if I, if I made you pick your futuresiding color and spent two hours with
you and the misses at Sherwin Williams,and you found that you really liked
this lightning blue, and then youwent with a black roof instead of a
brown one, most of the time you livein this home, you'd have the, the more
attractive future exterior color you like.
(30:38):
Sure.
Eric (30:39):
So it, it's h how do you, you know, you say you offer the design services
for free once they become a customer.
So what does that engagement look like?
Are, are you essentially kind ofgiving them, you know, here, here's,
here's our construction agreement,our, you know, basically you, you've
given them, you know, a, a, a scopeof work, but allowing them to make
their design selections later.
(31:00):
So like, are they, are they getting anallowance and you know, do they know what
the cost is gonna be going into this?
Or how do you, how do you work, work
Gary (31:07):
that?
So we have some templates, um, for.
Standard stuff like a completebathroom remodel by the square footage.
We have a, a pretty standard pricerange and we have different levels.
So, um, you would want a reallyhigh end bathroom remodel.
(31:28):
And so we would, uh, knowupfront that you might pick a
$1,749 shower head and we would.
Put that in upfront and youmight actually save money when
you go to the Grow He supplier.
And finally, pick your final selections.
Um, I think you wanted the goldtrim, so I include that all in there.
(31:49):
And then you pick, um, the brushed nickeland it's actually a hundred bucks cheaper.
It would be, uh, an error toassume a high-end bathroom wouldn't
come with a more expensive drain.
And a better, uh, curdysystem behind the tile.
Sure.
So, uh, making the, uh, understandingwhat can be done and understanding that
(32:14):
the most popular complaint a customerhas at the end of a major renovation
is they wish they had started witha professional design, a designer.
Um, most folks think that startingwith a professional design would
raise the cost and delay things.
Our research shows that startingwith a professional design
(32:35):
actually saves time and money.
And I have this really funny story,I'll try to keep this brief, but we,
we had a kitchen project for 28,000.
A client had eight quotes and choseus, and each time we came out to
remeasure her cabinets to order'em, she asked for something extra.
(32:55):
First one, it was take out a wall.
Second one was take out another wall.
Then it was the floorsthroughout the whole home.
Next it was all theelectrical and insulation.
So we ended up completelygutting this entire home.
And after 20 some changeorders, she was in for $160,000.
(33:15):
Wow.
And the last day we weretiling the bathroom.
She asked for more tile.
And I remember just sitting outsideof my truck, I was one back short of
tile that day because she wanted toadd 16 square feet and I had never
offered this option apparently.
'cause she always would'vewanted tile behind the toilet.
(33:37):
I'm sure you probably havetile behind your toilet, right?
I can't say I do.
So I learned a very, very, uh, expensivelesson and that's that if I allow
customers to make decisions one at a timethroughout a remodel, I stress them out.
I stress myself out.
You get lost in the chaos of change ordersand the customer's experience is affected.
(34:01):
So investing in the processof designing things, um.
Is an investment in yourrelationship with your customer.
It's one that'schallenging to do pre-sale.
So we typically findout if we're good fit.
We take a small deposit, maybe 10% fora $30,000 bathroom, and so then with a
(34:22):
$3,000 commitment, we give 'em everythingwe got and try to design something great.
And usually they findtile that's $30 a foot.
And our budget says $8 a foot.
And of course the price goes up anduh, it allows them to work through
(34:44):
the process of seeing what all isout there and what can be done.
And then once we get the pricingfinalized, then you can work
your way up from there or down.
Uh, sometimes people would say,wow, this came in below budget.
Let's go do the otherbathroom at the same time.
Sometimes they hold off a few monthsto reallocate funds to make sure that
(35:07):
this is a blessing and not a curse.
Yep.
So
Eric (35:12):
how many projects are you running at one time?
Gary (35:17):
So, uh, we're probably on, uh, six to 10 job sites a day.
Uh, some of our jobs are.
Several months, like a majoraddition and whole home renovation.
Um, and many jobs can be completed injust a few working days or a couple weeks.
(35:38):
So we're always participatingin, uh, different projects.
No two projects are ever the same.
Just like no two clientsare ever the same.
Yeah.
And, uh, we have a highlevel of repeat customers.
We have a high level of customersthat, um, that are referring
(36:00):
similar great customers.
So our marketing is just asmall percentage really of,
uh, how we get new leads.
A lot of them are just, uh, lovingthe current customers we have.
Hmm.
Um, sometimes we'll have aproject that last several months.
So what we do at least once a week,even during the process when we're
(36:24):
waiting on things to be orderedand for permits, we just do an
update to tell 'em what's going on.
And oftentimes it, it could be a littleredundant because we told 'em last week.
Kind of the same thing and weposted it in their portal, but
everyone doesn't read the portal.
Everyone doesn't valueour portal like we do.
(36:46):
So in order to satisfy all mycustomers, I have to call them, I have
to text them, I have to email themand sometimes post on their portal.
And, uh, most people feel like wecare because we communicate so much.
Eric (37:01):
Yeah.
I mean, that's, uh, that, that's,that's your dream contractor, right?
There is somebody who's over-communicatingversus under-communicating.
I mean, so many peoplejust feel like they don't.
You know, they, they don't knowwhat's happening and they're not
part of the, the whole experience.
And so it just, you know, it's, it'seasy for, for the mind to wonder and
think, you know, oh, things aren't goingon and what, you know, what's, what's
(37:22):
happening and something must be wrong.
Like, you know, I think when you takethat time to keep them up to date, you
know, it really does get that, get thatbuy-in for 'em and gets them feeling like
they're, they're part of this journey.
You know?
I think that's, that'sabsolutely the way to go.
Gary (37:35):
I, I'm in, um, all these local business network, LBN groups, and they
teach very basic things about networking.
And they say that people, uh,hire companies that they like
and trust, like know, and trust.
That's their, their threelike know and trust.
So by being likable, by caring.
(37:59):
By, uh, following the lawsand simple basic stuff.
Hopefully people, you know, feel that, andthat's why they're able to move forward.
Our average job being $82,000, um,has been something that we had to, I
had to adjust because, um, much of mycareer, my average job was around 8,000.
(38:23):
Mm. So just replacing a roof for8,000 turned to replacing all the wood
and all the insulation with new trimand gutters or something like that.
So it's a completely different,uh, client experience when I
can't show up and leave that sameweek with your finished bathroom.
(38:43):
Sure.
Um, in fact, in Michigan we haveto pull electrical, plumbing.
HVAC and building permitsjust to remodel a bathroom.
Hmm.
So there could be upwardsof 10 inspections.
Wow.
And a bathroom could taketwo months to replace now.
(39:05):
Wow.
That's, uh,
Eric (39:07):
sounds like quite the process there.
Gary (39:10):
The, uh, in Michigan, the, uh, the building department believes
that everything should be inspected.
To prevent the homeowner from receivingsubpar work, um, I would want your
plumbing drain to definitely beinspected before you install mosaic, you
know, uh, marble tile in your shower.
(39:32):
That's, you know, it's not reversible.
Do so it's, it's valuable that theinspectors around here wanna see the
roof decking, that the wood is good.
That there's, um, ice and water shield inareas where you have snow is what keeps
you from having leaks in the winter time.
(39:53):
Yeah.
And it's an expensive product.
A lot of roofers, um, if no one werelooking and no one knew and they didn't
use it, they would pocket the money.
Hmm.
So an inspector's there tomake sure that the homeowner
doesn't receive a subpar job.
It all looks the same oncethe shingles are installed.
Yeah.
(40:13):
Yeah, no,
Eric (40:13):
that, that makes sense.
You know, I know it's, uh,d different in every, every
part of the country, you know?
So Course I'm curious, how, how do you,you know, do, do you, you got, you got a
lot of jobs going on with, sounds like alot of different potential trades are, are
you leveraging trade partners for this?
Do you have any in-house, youknow, carpenters, crews, like
(40:34):
how are you getting the workdone from a labor standpoint?
Gary (40:36):
So that is definitely, um.
Something worth talking about.
So I have, um, worked with all employees.
I've worked with all subs, and Inow have found a sweet spot in the
middle where I have a blend of both.
Okay?
So I own a dump truck, but I nearlynever use it anymore because it turns
(40:57):
out my, uh, sub contractor who has adump truck, he treats his dump truck a
lot better than he ever treated mine.
And my roofing installers would never,ever have the right amount of hammers
and ladders, and they'd always say,Hey, listen, the reason why this job
(41:19):
didn't get done today is 'cause, youknow, Bob didn't have a hammer all
day, and we only had one ladder, sowe couldn't work on the whole roof.
We only worked on the garage today.
Hmm, years later, those same guys, Iinvested in them and they invested in
their self and they developed theirown install company, and they found
out a way that every job that used totake two days now could be done in one.
(41:45):
They used to tear off theroof from the bottom up.
Now they go up to the top and tearoff the roof from the top down.
It couldn't be done before.
They said in under eight hours.
Now it's done in two hours.
The tear off.
It's funny how that happens, huh?
They said, uh, the, the first week theywere in business for themself, they
went and bought four extra hammers.
(42:06):
They said, we don't have time tosit around anymore and wait for
someone to bring us a hammer.
Huh?
They bought four more tear offbars and there was this guy, Brad,
who had been the job forever.
I hope he doesn't see this.
And Brad, uh, honestly, he was a reallynice guy, but I think he talked too much.
And so the guys were like,we're not bringing Brad anymore.
(42:27):
Because we can just do the workwithout Brad and still get it done.
So less guys now install roofsin less time, and they definitely
found ways to become more efficient.
They even bought an extra ladder now.
(42:47):
That's
Eric (42:48):
funny, you know, I mean, okay.
Goes to show man, you know, it's,it's all about finding the right,
the right combination of, of, of, ofworkers and, you know, however you
can get them as motivated as possible.
So it sounds like you invested andhelped them get set up as their
own, you know, their own business.
And boy, they, uh, they, they certainly,uh, got, got focused on that efficiency.
Gary (43:08):
So what I've had the good fortune of doing over the years is helping.
Great installers develop great businesses.
Um, I look at an install, aninstall business to be like a
partner for an installation.
So if I'm your roofer and uh, you'remy general contractor, you're in the
(43:29):
marketing and sales arena every day.
You're buying leads, you're runningappointments, you're getting
rejected, you're following up.
It's a whole process.
You meet a hundredpeople, you get 10 roofs.
Yep.
The installers don't needto hear about the 100.
They need to hear about the 10.
Yep.
So I try to prevent any installersfrom ever going to the job by doing
(43:51):
pre-construction work, as if they went tothe job, looking at it from their lens so
that they can run a profitable business.
Most great installersare great at installing.
When they're self-employed, they onaverage spend around half their time doing
(44:11):
the trade they're great at and half thetime struggling with the business end.
By the way, I'm talkingabout myself right now.
So where I found the greatest successover the years is helping an individual
develop a great install company wherehe can focus on going to installs
(44:33):
and performing grid installations.
He can be responsible for,um, managing the personnel
associated with that job site.
And then I work on my end on makingsure he is got so much work that he
can afford to pay people well and, and.
Ultimately, um, installersthat are specialists do the
(44:56):
best quality installation.
Your roofing contractor, God, Ihope he doesn't most of the time do
carpets, but today he's doing a roof.
Yeah.
'cause you have a differenttruck, you have a different setup,
you have a different training.
Sure.
So do you
Eric (45:11):
find that, are you, you know, from a cost perspective, you know.
Using your own guys versus using now,you know, a specialist who set up
their own company, a subcontractor.
How, how do you, how do youcompare the cost of those two?
Gary (45:27):
I hope my insurance agent watches this video.
I have learned that the best way forme to grow my company at this stage
is that internally my employees donot self perform most installations.
Door installation here and there.
(45:47):
Maybe if it's a scheduling situation, um,a small LVP laminate floor job, maybe.
But most of the time all of our projectmanagers do is work with our crews.
And work with our homeownersand be the liaison.
Hmm.
And so I, I have a great installer whois kind of like a handyman and he's
(46:11):
wonderful and he takes on all sorts ofprojects that involve painting with me.
I figure out the colors of thepaint, what walls they'll go on.
I get the paint, I keep it inside.
I schedule everything.
My painter shows up.
Performs his trade and sendsme a bill the same day.
(46:31):
He can keep moving from job to jobdoing wonderful painting because my
team and I take the measurements,figure out all the in-between stuff.
We have a dumpster there for debris, thehomeowner's scheduled, um, with a lockbox
so that they can show up and do their job.
We need them, of course.
(46:53):
They need us for thisrelationship to work each day.
Yeah.
And I have a job that I've been workingthrough for two and a half years,
and the contractor has never heardtheir name once until a week or two
or four before they start work there.
And within, um, days of when they start,they send me a juicy invoice and get paid.
(47:17):
All right.
Eric (47:19):
Sounds like you've really, you know, dialed this in to figure out the,
the, the, the optimal way to, to, tomanage this in, in the most efficient
and cost effective, you know, process.
And, and, and you're getting that qualitywork for that specific trade that you
need done while, while being able to,again, take on more jobs, maintain
your margins, you know, maintain yourcost, your schedule, 'em, and sounds
(47:40):
like you really dialed it in, man.
Gary (47:42):
Have you ever heard of equipped.
Equipped, or no, I haven'tEquipped is a fantastic company.
They own these special roof dumptrailers for, uh, roofing companies
and extends up to the roof line.
And when you tear off the roof, youthrow the debris into the equipped
or instead of on the ground.
Hmm.
(48:02):
You got a bunch of beautiful, uh, flowerswhen they tear off a roof, typically.
All the material from your roof landson the ground and you're landscaping.
Yeah, so the equipped, uh, has thesefantastic trailers that are motorized.
It's like a, a miniature vehicle, and itcan extend up to the roof and take all
(48:23):
that debris right into the dump, the dumptrailer, and then I can drive the dump
trailer to the foot of your driveway.
Maybe the dumpster's at the curb.
Yeah.
Instead of blocking your garage.
Uh, and so that, for example, is onepiece of equipment that, uh, I invest in.
I have, uh, spent almost, uh, over$150,000 on equips, and we just
(48:49):
had a new one delivered this week.
Nice.
And so each one of thoseprevents two to three laborers.
On a roof job.
Wow.
So if you were my subcontractor,if you get paid by the job, um,
let's say you look to make $6,000in labor for replacing a roof.
If I provide you with a machine thattakes two to three guys off your
(49:12):
payroll, that means that everyoneon the crew just got a raise.
Yeah.
And when you have a big roof job, thecrew often will get delayed, um, and their
schedule gets messed up because there'sa full day worth of cleanup and mess.
And if you do that by hand skilledguys that can install shingles, um,
(49:34):
those guys could be shingling nailshingling at the next job site.
So by providing an encrypter, myteam is able to do more roofs a week.
Collect more pay, and then myhomeowners are happier because the
install happens faster with less messand less damage to the landscaping.
Eric (49:59):
Oh, that's, uh, smart.
I just looked up at, it doesn't looklike, uh, we, we've got a, uh, a
place to rent the Equips in Dallas.
Looks like the nearest one's Austin,so Well, the good roof contractors
Gary (50:10):
own them.
Okay.
All right.
So they're buying it.
They buy 'em because you, every day,no matter what happens with your, um,
with personnel, unfortunately on roofs,on roof jobs, sometimes guys have stuff
come up and they don't make it to work.
If you can imagine.
Yeah.
Unfortunately it's hardwork, especially in Texas.
It's very hot down there.
(50:31):
Um, you burn your hand justtouching the surface of the roofing.
In Michigan when it's hot.
So, uh, that machineshows up every single day.
Um, it's got run flat tires on it.
You can run over 90 nails and it willstill operate tremendously reliable.
That's awesome.
A five man crew can do what aneight man crew is typically required
(50:53):
to do with just that machine.
It's awesome.
I love it.
So it'll be a money makerfor people that do roofing.
Eric (51:01):
Yeah.
Sounds, sounds, it soundslike a great hidden g There.
I, uh, I wanna ask you, so you, you've gota tagline there, the integrity guys, what,
what, what does that mean and, and how didyou, how did you come up with that tagline
and what does it represent for you?
Thank you.
Um,
Gary (51:19):
well, um, what I have found in my career of learning how to be
the best professional roofer andhome remodeler is that there are
a whole bunch of opportunities.
To cut corners and save money.
And ultimately the best results comefrom spending a little more money and
(51:42):
a little more time on the details.
So when you look from the lens ofwhat's allowed by code and what's
required by the install instructions,um, and then you just think about
what the, what a customer, what.
Their perspective is, um, we'reable to deliver a successful outcome
(52:06):
and always protect our integrity.
Uh, so I, I won't advertise that wehave roofs from 49 99 on Facebook.
I know a lot of guys out there thatget tons and tons of sales that
way, but you start off leading.
Folks that may not have the budgetfor what your services cost, and
(52:30):
then it's a kind of an uphill battle.
Instead, we start outconditioning folks that actually
roofing can be very expensive.
There's a lot of liability.
There's insurance that's required.
You can't just send out threeguys for the average roof.
You need like a full crew.
We talked about our motorizedequipped, um, it's different than
(52:50):
what it takes to, you know, to, to bea lawn cutting company, for example.
So, um, by focusing on quality, by beingof high integrity, we have been able to
establish ourself as a company capableof providing a custom solution complete.
Um, they wrote this really nicearticle in a big, in a big, uh, news
(53:14):
Detroit newspaper article, and theysaid that we take on the intricate,
complicated projects that mostcompanies would perhaps pass on.
And we create happy customers,um, from what would be, you know,
potentially like not the idealcustomer for one of our competitors.
(53:35):
Sure.
Eric (53:37):
Well, that's awesome, man.
I, I, I love that.
And I think, again, it it, you set thetone for, for, for your people, you
know, every job that they show up, youknow, every decision, every, you know,
time that they, that they representthe business, you know, they, they
have that in their mind, you know,that, that they need to uphold the
integrity of, of, of what you and thebrand and, and everything represents.
So I, I love it.
(53:58):
I love how you put itright there below the logo.
Gary (54:00):
Well, for your roof, for example, um, the roofers who are on your roof that
work for the general, uh, manager of thecrew who's doing your job, one person
is probably responsible if the roof isnot done right and every guy under them.
Has a limited future liability withyou, but the individual who you sign
(54:26):
with, they have accountability so they,so the parent company has no intention
of skimping out on your job, but aninstaller who shouldn't be on the roof
and they let him run a nail gun and heshouldn't, can do more bad than he can.
Good.
Yeah.
So what matters in that situationis what gets done about it.
When you see that your, your pressure'stoo high and you're shooting nails
(54:49):
through the shingles, and these shinglesare likely gonna blow off, do you stop?
Do you turn the compressor off?
Do you start tearing off theshingles until you find that
they're right, or do you just keepgoing and you go with the flow?
Yeah.
Um, there's a big name company in townthat's wonderful and they have a tagline,
(55:09):
something like, you know, we do theright thing even when no one's looking.
And I really like that.
And another company that's reallygood in town, they are, um, the
carpet guys and they're really good.
And so, um, my old I.
Longtime friend who unfortunatelypassed away, he thought that the
perfect tagline for our companywould be the integrity guys.
(55:31):
Because when we're ever trying to makea decision about something, we work
through the lens of integrity first.
So if it's not allowed, if it's notlegal, if it's not compliant with code,
if it's not intended to be done bythe manufacturer, it's not an option.
Yeah.
More services and problems happenwith installations because someone cut
(55:57):
corners with quality or with materials.
It's usually a $500 thingthat caused a $5,000 problem.
Hmm.
And so I believe in spending the 500 allthe time to avoid spending the 5,000.
Eric (56:15):
Yeah.
It's, uh, I, I, I love it, man.
So, as, as we wrap up here, Gary, I'm,I'm, I'm curious, do you, do you have any
final thoughts, you know, any, any advicethat, you know, when you think back about,
you know, your, your 20 or so years, youknow, being in construction, running a
business, working for others, startinganother business, like, is there anything
(56:36):
that you wish you would've known, youknow, if, if, if you were to start over,
like, what, what, what, what advice wouldyou give yourself, you know, that might
help others out there who are listening?
Absolutely.
First off,
Gary (56:47):
um, uh, I didn't find QuickBooks early enough and I didn't find a
good bookkeeper and a good CPA.
So I'm so glad that I have a bookkeeperand a CPA that are in harmony, and they
specialize in working with contractors.
So they're great at helping mekeep my books clean and orderly.
(57:10):
Um, so that's been something thattook me a long time to discover.
I think that, uh, the, the sooner thatI was able to stop spending money on
things that didn't generate money.
It allowed me to dial inand grow campaigns for lead
(57:31):
generation that did make money.
There's an endless opportunity of peoplethat will accept your advertising money
and not get you results, and there'sa bunch of gimmicks that you can spend
your money on that don't make money.
And then there are some thingsthat will work for your business
that you should do a lot.
(57:52):
I believe vehicle wraps, for example,have been something that have been
very effective for my company.
I get calls all the time,um, every day I'm driving.
Tom Rebar said in a podcast theother day that it's like three
or $4 a day to have your vehiclewrapped on average for $4 a day.
(58:12):
You put yourself out there to thepublic in the area where you're working.
No.
Eric (58:20):
Man, Jerry, this has, uh, this has been awesome.
I, uh, I, I, I really appreciateyou sharing, you know, your, your
whole story, your journey, you know,the challenges that you've had.
You know, again, you've,you've built a great business.
You obviously lead with integrity.
You've got a great team ofpeople, the projects that you're
doing, you know, top notch.
So I just appreciate you coming on hereand sharing all this with all of our
listeners today, you know, means a lot.
(58:42):
It's been exciting to watch youcontinue to grow over the last
several years, and I'm excited tosee where the future takes you, man.
Thank you very much.
I'm looking forward to the future.
Awesome.
Great job.
See you, man.
Thank you very much.
Thanks for joining us for thisepisode of Builder Stories.
We hope you enjoyed the conversationand gained valuable insights that can
(59:02):
help you in your journey along the way.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe show and leave us a review.
And as always, if you or someone youknow has a story to share, please
contact us@builderstories.com.
We'd love to hear from you.
I'm Eric Fortenberry, and remember,every builder has a unique story.
Keep building yours.
Welcome to the podcast where we take a deep dive into the stories
behind construction business leaders.
We will share how they got started,how they found success, and the
lessons learned along the way.
I'm your host, Eric Fortenberry.
Welcome to Builder Stories.
Welcome back everybody.
Today.
(00:20):
I'm really excited.
I've got a special guest withus, Gary Muehling, who is the
president of MI Remodelers.
They're located in Rochester, Michigan.
They actually have three locations,uh, across Oakland County.
So, you know, reallyexcited to have Gary on.
He is been a rockstar.
Got a great team.
They've done a lot of awesome work.
Been with us for, for agood little while too.
So, you know, wanna, wanna welcomeyour builder stories, Gary.
(00:43):
Thank you very much for having me, Eric.
Absolutely.
So why don't you give us a little bitof background, who you are, how'd you
get into construction in the firstplace, and what led you to start
up the, the remodeling business.
Thank you.
Gary (00:55):
Yeah.
Um, this is my 20th year in constructionand I, uh, started a business when I
was young and failed and I went to workfor larger businesses and saw how they.
I did things differentlyand I, uh, reopened and, uh,
(01:16):
tried again at construction.
And over the years, I've, uh,really learned a lot and I've
always loved helping people and sobeing a home remodeling contractor
allows me to help people every day.
And we do a lot more than justchanging out old doorknobs.
We change people's lives.
Eric (01:39):
It's awesome, man.
So you, you actually, you startedyour own business and then, you
know, you, you said it failed.
I mean, like, what, what happened?
Like what do you, you know, now,now that you know, everything you
do, like when you look back on that,like what do you think, like, was
there anything in, in, you know, inparticular that, that caused you to fail?
Or just a bunch of things, or like
Gary (01:58):
what, how do you reflect on My, my career has been
primarily focused on roofing.
As a residential roofer 20 years ago,um, I was taught how roofing was done
by fellow installers who may or maynot have done things right, may or may
not have been trained on how to do itproperly, may or may not have known code.
(02:22):
And so I, I learned how not todo it before I learned how it's
supposed to be done properly.
Had the good benefit of, uh,working with certain Teed Roofing.
For many years, I've been trainedon how, in how to install shingles.
How to install ventilation, um, at themanufacturer's level, they have a lot
(02:44):
of great educational opportunities andcredentialing programs, and that's with
every roofing manufacturer pretty much.
Sure.
Eric (02:54):
So what, what ended up though, like, you know, kind of, how, how did you know
when you, you needed to shut down thebusiness and go work for someone else?
Gary (03:02):
Well, when I was young and stupid and broke, um, I had no
business being the owner of a business.
And, uh, as a young 20 something yearold, I didn't have the proper licensing.
I didn't know what.
Types of insurance was required.
I had no idea how to prevent liabilityor how to pull a building permit.
(03:29):
And, uh, working for larger,more established companies that
win and follow all the rules.
I learned how the opposite.
End of the spectrum worked when youhave a leads machine, when you have
a sales process, when you have, uh,layers of management and supervision.
(03:49):
And so ultimately, uh, what's worked wellfor me is I've been able to divide my,
my business into two separate sectors.
We really have a marketing salesbusiness, and we have a project
management and installation business.
Nice.
So dividing those gave methe ability to start tracking
(04:13):
the daily results separately.
And those are two departments thatI, I personally feel like, uh, run
really efficiently and are profitable.
Eric (04:26):
Yeah.
So you, you know, you, you did somethingreally smart there, but going back.
Getting experience and being ableto learn from others and seeing the
successes that you were able to thentake and apply to your business that
you started back up after, after,you know, sounds like a couple years
of, of working for someone else.
What, what role did you have when youwent back to work for someone else?
Gary (04:47):
Thank you for asking that.
So after, uh, only being in businessfor a couple years as a roofing
and siding company and failing,um, I then went to work for, um,
an established company as sales.
Got to see how they run appointments andmake, uh, make demonstrations and, uh,
turn those into yeses and win business.
(05:10):
And, uh, then I was promotedto sales management.
So I got to see how the generalmanager of a sales business that had
several offices operated, I got to, uh,participate in seeing satellite offices
created at multiple big name companies.
And, um, those experiences werevery valuable for me because, uh,
(05:35):
corporate, um, companies that arelarger and nationally owned have a lot
of processes in place that smaller,less established companies have.
And so I, I learned, um, on a highlevel how to run a tight ship.
That's awesome.
Um, but things changeda lot over the years.
Back then, our primary leadsources were canvassing.
(06:00):
TV and phone room.
Phone room, huh?
Before the Facebook of theworld and things like that.
I'm pretty sure.
Yeah.
Must have,
Eric (06:10):
must have been a little bit harder.
Gary (06:13):
Well, I think it actually is, is harder now because to compete on the
digital arena is, is a new challenge fora lot of non-tech savvy great tradesmen.
Eric (06:28):
Yeah.
That, uh, that, that, that makes sense.
Are, are you, are you puttingyourself into that bucket there?
I
Gary (06:34):
am less tech savvy than probably most people that are under 40.
Yeah.
But I think most carpenters areprobably not very tech savvy.
Eric (06:48):
Sure.
So what year was it when you, when yourefound and started up the new business?
I opened Mi
Gary (06:54):
Remodelers in 2019.
Okay.
Uh, prior to that I was theVP of a roofing company.
Actually, that company that, uh, failedoriginally, later we reopened it.
I operated as the VP and, uh,that company we were able to grow.
(07:16):
I think today they doaround, uh, 6 million or so.
Oh, wow.
Eric (07:21):
Okay.
And so are you, are you stillinvolved in that as well as
Gary (07:24):
Uh, no.
Uh, so.
In 2019 when I opened my own company,um, right before COVID, um, I, I
moved on, uh, from the VP of thatcompany because I wanted to do
things beyond roofing and siding.
Sure.
And as a general contractor today, I buildbeautiful garages and additions and we
(07:47):
pour decorative concrete looks like stone.
And get to participate in a numberof different, very satisfying,
um, capacities every day.
Interior and exterior.
Complete residential remodeling,um, is what Mi Remodelers
offers the public every day.
And by providing design servicesand helping clients visualize their
(08:12):
renovation, we really find a wayto help a client envision the end.
Before we're mid construction.
Eric (08:24):
Yeah.
So it's, uh, so it sounds like thattransition from from roofing was.
It was a, it was, it was a lot moreexciting of, of the type of work.
I mean, obviously, you know,putting, you know, ripping a
roof and putting it back on.
I mean, you know, now, you know,homeowner's not, you know, hanging
out up there and, you know, getting,you know, it's, it's, it's kind
of one of those basic necessities.
Right.
And, you know, being able to getinto the remodeling side, you,
(08:45):
you, you, you seem to have a littlebit more passionate about that.
Gary (08:48):
Well, being a professional roofer, you have to become capable
at performing structural carpentry.
Sometimes like replacing all thesheets of wood underneath the shingles.
Uh, sometimes there's siding andtrim work where the roof meets the
siding that has to be addressed.
(09:09):
Uh, there's tons ofcustom metal bending work.
And then if you replace a lot of roofs,all these homes typically have drywall
or plaster damage or sometimes do, sowhat I found is that roofers try and.
Stay replacing roofs, but they don'toften wanna do some of the elements
(09:33):
that are required to do a roof properly.
For example, we remediate mold,so we inspect attics when we
find moisture impaction, werecommend cleaning and remediating.
Replacing wood that has mold onit, wiping down rafters and joists,
(09:58):
upgrading moisture impacted insulation.
So all these things most roofersdon't wanna do are part of a
proper solution for homeowners toreceive a better quality result.
A lot of roof jobs that roofers do later.
(10:18):
There will be a leak from thesiding because where the roofing
and the siding meet the rooferended his work with the roof and
now there's a need for a siding guy.
Hmm.
So by doing the roofing and thesiding together, we ultimately
prevent any future issues thatwouldn't be covered by their warranty.
Eric (10:42):
It's interesting.
That's, uh, really great to know.
I'm actually about to, uh, have, havemy roof, uh, replaced next week, so I
appreciate the, uh, the insight there.
Do you have any dormers?
Uh, do we have any dormers?
I don't, I don't know
Gary (10:57):
the, there are, uh, the, the majority of the roof is flat area,
not valleys, not up against walls and.
Usually the details are like aroundthe chimney and around the walls
of dormers that many roofers getit wrong, but I'm sure you've got
a good roofer in your area already.
Eric (11:17):
Yeah.
So you're talking about kinda likethe where, where like the window
and the sort of it would come out.
Gary (11:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's uh.
Um, a, a scenario where a, yeah.
A roof would extend outof an existing roof.
And so there's a wall maybe with windows.
Eric (11:32):
Yep.
Yep.
So we do, we do have one of thoseright there in the front, which
has also been a source of, uh, of,of a leak force in the past, um,
Gary (11:41):
side that dormer at the same time, if you can.
Okay.
Because if they tear off the siding, thentheir underlayments can go up the wall.
Hmm.
And it'll be like a new constructionflashing setup, and it'll be,
you know, watertight forever.
Yeah.
That would be a, that wouldbe a good thing to do.
Yeah.
If, because later if you do thesiding over, when they take off the
(12:04):
siding, wherever the roofer endedtheir material, it's only an inch
or two up past the transition point.
Sure.
Eric (12:12):
Yeah.
We, uh, we, we've actually had onehell of a story, uh, dealing with
this kind of, this whole roofing area.
Some, some insulation.
My, my daughter's room.
Is right there, kind of under thator right next to that where that,
uh, that, that dormer there is.
And, uh, she has a little, a little smalllittle attic space attached to her closet.
And, uh, we were, we were strugglingto, uh, keep her room temperature the
(12:34):
right, the right, you know, kind of,it was either too hot or too cold.
And, uh, we, we were like, oh,well we just need to insulate
this, this little attic area.
And, uh, my, my neighbor, few doorsdown, owned an insulation company,
said, oh, we'll just come in and do somespray foam, kind of, you know, just.
Spray foam the whole thingup and it'll be good to go.
And we're like, all right, cool.
You know, and so let her comein and, and, and did that.
(12:54):
But ultimately there wasn't theproper ventilation in there.
And so the, the spray foam never curedand ended up like, getting into my, my
daughter's, uh, like into her system.
We, we actually found she had like somecrazy level of flame retardant in her,
in, in, in her, uh, in, in her body.
And, uh, and then to make thingsworse, we had the little, um.
(13:14):
A little bit of a leak that was coming in.
And so like, it created amold situation up in there.
And so now she's got, you know,flame retardant, we had mold in her
system and a lot of our systems and,uh, it was just like this huge like
catastrophe that like we've beendealing with for years and years.
And so, you know, we're, we'refinally on the last step where we, we
know we need a new roof altogether.
We had already made therepairs, so that one area, but.
(13:35):
I've, I've, I've had multiple peoplepoint out that like the way that the,
you know, that the roof has kind ofbeen repaired was, it was more of a
patch job versus trying to get it,you know, done, done the right way.
And so, you know, we've just reacheda point where we need and just,
we're just redoing the whole thingand, uh, hopefully kind of put
this, this whole thing behind us.
But definitely been a, been, beena really crappy situation for, for,
(13:55):
for my wife and, and, and, and familyand I to, to have to deal with.
Gary (14:00):
Well, when you replace the roof, make sure that the roofing
contractor understands that any sheetsof wood that have moisture impaction
on them should be removed, whetherthey're structurally intact or not.
If there's discoloration, if there'swater stains, the the right way
to replace that roof would be tores sheet that area with new wood.
(14:23):
Yeah, that's, uh, and if there'sany insulation that's moisture
impacted, that should definitelycome out while the roof's open.
That way that gross air comes out thetap through the roof instead of out
through, you know, through your homeone day if it ever has to be remediated.
Yeah.
Eric (14:41):
Well that's, we're, so it's, it's, it's been a long journey for us.
I've, I've got a job tradecontractor doing it for us.
I'm, I'll get the, uh, get, get to seethe play by play and everything, and
the, you know, and, and the daily logsand the photos and everything there.
But yeah, you know,it's, it's interesting.
I, I. I do see in general, like, youknow what, what we've been learning is
we've been getting into the, the roofingspace a lot more, and I think one of
the, the unique advantages of Job Shredhas been that like, you know, we can
(15:05):
handle more than just roofing projects.
And so we we're starting to see rooferslike kind of wanting to take on more of
those, you know, remodel type projects,getting a little bit more on the interior,
you know, sounds like kind of similar,similar situation for you is that.
Is that, is that a common trend in theindustry or do you see a lot of roofers
just not ever wanna, wanna move intothe inside or take on additional work?
Gary (15:26):
Well, I feel like I'm giving away the secret sauce of,
uh, how I find my best success.
But a number of roofing projectsthat I end up winning are not leads
that people found me for their roof.
Hmm.
So as a general contractor.
I replace bathrooms and kitchens.
(15:47):
I design additions and build them.
And so I, I get a lot of people whowanna refinish finish their basement,
and through the process of designingtheir basement, we determine that their
electrical service needs to be upgraded.
And then we find that inside their attic,maybe there's some discoloration from
(16:08):
a bath vent that's not prop properly.
Ducting, that's a real popularproblem in our area 'cause we
have freezing temperatures.
So, um, when the hot air from yourshower enters a really cold attic, it
condensates and that's the way they builthomes in our area for a hundred years.
(16:30):
Once we've built a relationship with aclient enough to inspect their attic,
we're we're able to find a lot ofmoisture impaction on the underside
of roofs, and we have a solution.
Replace the roof, replace the sheets ofwood, replace water impacted insulation,
wipe down, uh, with antimicrobial alllumber that has stains on it like trusses.
Eric (16:59):
So you, you guys are coming in and you may be brought in for one
particular kind of remodel project,but it sounds like you're really doing
like a full assessment of the, of theentire home, the living situation.
Is that, is that true?
Is that kind of the, the approach here?
Gary (17:14):
Yeah.
Um, what I found in all my career isevery company I ever worked at were,
were more of a niche company andthey wanted to stay in their lane.
A hundred times someone would buysiding for $40,000 and we'd have
to turn 'em away for the deck.
Sorry.
We, we just do siding.
Hire a deck guy.
(17:35):
Yeah.
And the siding in thedeck actually go together.
Like you, you build the deck and then youflash the deck and then you side the wall.
Yep.
So to be a sider andrefuse to build a deck.
You miss a lot of revenue andit's great business if you already
have a $40,000 siding project toalso build a 250 square foot deck.
(17:59):
Sure.
So for, um, for me to make a commitmentto learn framing, carpentry, and
exterior and interior, I get my ownpersonal builder's license and, uh,
develop a, a commitment to learning.
I don't send people away now that wouldlike a new deck with their siding.
(18:19):
I actually recommend it.
Yeah.
I think that every deck should be coverednow with a real nice metal roof even.
Eric (18:28):
Yeah, I'm sure.
Those metal roofs, uh, you know,I, I, I, my, my parents have one.
They love it, you know, it's obviouslya lot more expensive, but they,
uh, they, they absolutely love it.
Gary (18:38):
Metal is forever.
Eric, you could get a metal roofthat in 50 years is still, uh, musket
Brown, pre-finished, um, similarto an automobile exterior finish.
Guess,
Eric (18:51):
guess if you got your forever home, then, uh, makes total sense to do that.
Gary (18:55):
Well, I bet the longer you're responsible for a home, the more
a metal roof would be justifiablebecause after an asphalt roof has.
Reached its time and been replacedagain at your age, you know,
you'd be replacing it again.
So in your age you'd buy tworoofs or one an expensive one.
(19:19):
Now that next roof in 20 yearswill be a lot more expensive too.
I'm sure.
No was inflation.
So what, four?
What's that?
I imagine it'll be triple the price in20 or 30 years for a roof replacement.
Yeah.
So what's your,
Eric (19:37):
like when, when you get a new lead, like what, what's your, what's your full
process look like from someone findingyou, you know, you, you got a website
or are you converting 'em there, likekind of, you know, get getting into it?
Like, are you, you know, you'repre-qualifying, are you going out on site?
Kinda what's, what's the wholesales process look like for you?
Yeah.
Gary (19:55):
Well, I'm, I am, uh.
Learning the job tread, um,system and, uh, to maximize it.
We use Job Tread for, um, for ourappointment results for building
out all of our quotes and thenthe entire project management.
(20:17):
But we also work with go high levelfor all for our lead, um, engagement.
And so we have, you know, basicautomations when someone requests a
quote to prompt them via text and emailto schedule a time for, um, for a quote.
(20:39):
And we collect information via textor on the phone or via email, and
ultimately build out a, a detail forour estimator to work from as we.
Determine if this is an eligible customer.
We currently go out and meet with ourcustomers in order to give them a quote
(21:01):
and, uh, we're really excited to learn theShin Fu Tom Rebar, um, contractor fight
way as we are entering battleground now.
Nice.
Eric (21:14):
That's a great, great, great program.
Is, uh, would, would you say that,like, have, have you always been the
one that's, that's doing the sales ordo you have other people on your team
that are, that are also doing sales?
Gary (21:26):
So, I wish that I could do the sales.
It's probably the mostfun part of my business.
Meeting people, uh, learning about theirneeds and their wants for a project.
Understanding what.
Pain points they have and thenultimately helping them find a solution.
It's been the mostsatisfying part of my career.
(21:49):
Um, as I grew from, um, from just doingsales, I evolved into project management
because I understood the process ofsales, um, that allowed me to understand.
How to take that sale througha a successful installation.
Sure.
And initially when I started inconstruction 20 years ago, I started
(22:11):
out doing installations and sales.
As my small company.
So when I worked in sales later, Ihad an advantage 'cause I understood
a little more about how a roof orhow a siding project is installed.
And so after doing sales, being aproject manager, uh, was something
(22:31):
I had to experience in order to everown a business and run it right.
Um, now that I understand alot more about construction.
Not only am I more effective as asales person, but I'm better capable of
teaching salespeople or, uh, consultantshow to assist clients every day.
Sure.
(22:52):
'cause they have a problem and we havea solution and we can understand their
problem and understand what would bea, an agreeable solution at that point,
we could be considered for the project.
Yep.
So what, what, what, whatdoes your team look like?
Your, your full team right now?
We have four consultants thatmeet with homeowners every day.
(23:12):
And, um, most of our consultantsspecialize in roofing, siding, uh,
fencing, gutters, and a couple ofour consultants, myself included,
we could design your addition,your deck, your sunroom, complete
home remodel, new home build.
(23:33):
So, um.
We offer a lot of things and wetry to, um, accommodate everyone.
We have a, um, a bit of design backgroundand experience, so we love to take
clients through the process of acomplicated remodel and educate them.
Um, what we found is that withthe right information, many people
(23:56):
that start contracting and startexcavating and building things would
never have started the process.
Um, they think that a pricepoint is realistic and people
don't invest in educating them.
They're looking for low hanging fruit.
Yeah.
(24:17):
And so, um, I on the other hand enjoyworking with people through the process to
understand the reality upfront beforehandrather than, uh, through the process of
change orders and extras along the way.
And honestly, this is my favorite timeto shout out job tread because what
(24:38):
you guys have given our business issomething that is absolutely priceless.
How we can catalog our, our products andour services as a general contractor,
I, I can operate 500 line items fordifferent amounts that things cost.
And I can do this from my desk when I'mlistening to the Dave Ramsey show at.
(25:02):
8:00 AM and then my reps are able tojust plop in the codes and provide
estimates quickly, digitally, concisely,and in a fashion that people are
able to interact with them quickly.
A lot of customers complain that thething contractors alike struggle with
(25:26):
is lack of communication and lack ofstructure, and so Job tread provides
us that and we get more complimentsfrom high level, high-end clients,
the very particular specific detailedengineers and attorneys of the world.
(25:48):
So, um, shout out to you and your companyfor building such an awesome product.
Eric (25:53):
Yeah.
Appreciate that.
That's awesome.
Well, what's your, you know, forthose, for those high end projects,
what would you say your average,your average price point is there?
Gary (26:01):
So, uh, just over 80,000 is our average job and we, um,
we this year are on pace to doaround 4 million in business.
Nice.
Um, I think that.
Because we're a major renovationscontractor, we typically have around
a $2.5 million backlog of work.
(26:23):
And so some projects are sold this weekand completed in four weeks, but some
projects are sold this week and designedover the winter and permitted next
spring and ground broken on next summer.
Hmm.
So, um, what's been great with Job Treadis learning how to manage my jobs from I
(26:50):
can, I can run my business from my cellphone with job tread, what would require
a desktop computer for many things.
Otherwise, it's awesome.
Eric (27:01):
So, do you have the design capabilities in-house or are you, are
you partnering with the, you know.
Third party designers to, to do
Gary (27:10):
the, well, I guess that would depend.
And by the way, AI really, uh, uh.
Makes things easier in that regard.
Um, but we spent a long timedeveloping design guides for the
14 different things we offer a lot.
So if I were invited out to designyour, uh, deck or porch, I might show
(27:31):
you a wood frame deck, a concretepour deck, maybe a brick paver patio
at grade, maybe a brick paver patio.
Raised, maybe that could have, um, aroof over it, but maybe just railings.
Hmm.
So there's 10,000 options that could haveglass enclosure, like, um, a solarium.
(27:55):
So, um, we have a, a lot of standarddesign and rendering access.
Um.
Hover, for example, is a greatone for roofing and siding.
Yep.
So, um, we have a partnership with Hover.
We love to show someone in personwhile we're sitting with them,
what that yellow siding, whatthat blue roof would look like.
(28:21):
And uh, if you were really stronglyinterested in hiring me for your James
Hardy, and I show you that these colors,these seven colors, if you pick one of
them, they're a standard price point.
Or we can go up.
You can pick this differentprice point for custom colors.
It enables, uh, customers to makebuying decisions sooner, and I believe
(28:46):
the statistic is somewhere around 20%.
People spend more when they can seesamples and renderings of their projects.
Yeah.
I believe that.
So for roofing and siding,it's easy, but it's a lot more
difficult for interior remodeling.
Sure.
Um, if I were to replace your kitchencabinets and take out a wall and
(29:10):
change the, the floor plan for howyou use your kitchen, um, that's
something that could be very custom.
To design.
So we used to charge money to do design,and then a lot of times we would design
beautiful things and give them a quote.
And ultimately the price of whatwe designed isn't within their
(29:33):
budget and we would lose the sale.
Yeah.
Now what we do is we offer designservices for free to everyone.
Hmm.
So if you hire our company, we gothrough a process of multiple people
working through, um, the options.
Along the way to make sure that all thechoices are ones that make the most sense
(29:56):
and we invest extra time to learn whattheir future projects might consist of.
Uh, we're replacing a roof, forexample, and they have old siding.
And if you were to pick your roofcolor, Eric, based on your current Sid.
You might not love it 20 years down theroad or 10 years down the road when you
paint your siding a different color.
(30:16):
Sure.
So if I, if I made you pick your futuresiding color and spent two hours with
you and the misses at Sherwin Williams,and you found that you really liked
this lightning blue, and then youwent with a black roof instead of a
brown one, most of the time you livein this home, you'd have the, the more
attractive future exterior color you like.
(30:38):
Sure.
Eric (30:39):
So it, it's h how do you, you know, you say you offer the design services
for free once they become a customer.
So what does that engagement look like?
Are, are you essentially kind ofgiving them, you know, here, here's,
here's our construction agreement,our, you know, basically you, you've
given them, you know, a, a, a scopeof work, but allowing them to make
their design selections later.
(31:00):
So like, are they, are they getting anallowance and you know, do they know what
the cost is gonna be going into this?
Or how do you, how do you work, work
Gary (31:07):
that?
So we have some templates, um, for.
Standard stuff like a completebathroom remodel by the square footage.
We have a, a pretty standard pricerange and we have different levels.
So, um, you would want a reallyhigh end bathroom remodel.
(31:28):
And so we would, uh, knowupfront that you might pick a
$1,749 shower head and we would.
Put that in upfront and youmight actually save money when
you go to the Grow He supplier.
And finally, pick your final selections.
Um, I think you wanted the goldtrim, so I include that all in there.
(31:49):
And then you pick, um, the brushed nickeland it's actually a hundred bucks cheaper.
It would be, uh, an error toassume a high-end bathroom wouldn't
come with a more expensive drain.
And a better, uh, curdysystem behind the tile.
Sure.
So, uh, making the, uh, understandingwhat can be done and understanding that
(32:14):
the most popular complaint a customerhas at the end of a major renovation
is they wish they had started witha professional design, a designer.
Um, most folks think that startingwith a professional design would
raise the cost and delay things.
Our research shows that startingwith a professional design
(32:35):
actually saves time and money.
And I have this really funny story,I'll try to keep this brief, but we,
we had a kitchen project for 28,000.
A client had eight quotes and choseus, and each time we came out to
remeasure her cabinets to order'em, she asked for something extra.
(32:55):
First one, it was take out a wall.
Second one was take out another wall.
Then it was the floorsthroughout the whole home.
Next it was all theelectrical and insulation.
So we ended up completelygutting this entire home.
And after 20 some changeorders, she was in for $160,000.
(33:15):
Wow.
And the last day we weretiling the bathroom.
She asked for more tile.
And I remember just sitting outsideof my truck, I was one back short of
tile that day because she wanted toadd 16 square feet and I had never
offered this option apparently.
'cause she always would'vewanted tile behind the toilet.
(33:37):
I'm sure you probably havetile behind your toilet, right?
I can't say I do.
So I learned a very, very, uh, expensivelesson and that's that if I allow
customers to make decisions one at a timethroughout a remodel, I stress them out.
I stress myself out.
You get lost in the chaos of change ordersand the customer's experience is affected.
(34:01):
So investing in the processof designing things, um.
Is an investment in yourrelationship with your customer.
It's one that'schallenging to do pre-sale.
So we typically findout if we're good fit.
We take a small deposit, maybe 10% fora $30,000 bathroom, and so then with a
(34:22):
$3,000 commitment, we give 'em everythingwe got and try to design something great.
And usually they findtile that's $30 a foot.
And our budget says $8 a foot.
And of course the price goes up anduh, it allows them to work through
(34:44):
the process of seeing what all isout there and what can be done.
And then once we get the pricingfinalized, then you can work
your way up from there or down.
Uh, sometimes people would say,wow, this came in below budget.
Let's go do the otherbathroom at the same time.
Sometimes they hold off a few monthsto reallocate funds to make sure that
(35:07):
this is a blessing and not a curse.
Yep.
So
Eric (35:12):
how many projects are you running at one time?
Gary (35:17):
So, uh, we're probably on, uh, six to 10 job sites a day.
Uh, some of our jobs are.
Several months, like a majoraddition and whole home renovation.
Um, and many jobs can be completed injust a few working days or a couple weeks.
(35:38):
So we're always participatingin, uh, different projects.
No two projects are ever the same.
Just like no two clientsare ever the same.
Yeah.
And, uh, we have a highlevel of repeat customers.
We have a high level of customersthat, um, that are referring
(36:00):
similar great customers.
So our marketing is just asmall percentage really of,
uh, how we get new leads.
A lot of them are just, uh, lovingthe current customers we have.
Hmm.
Um, sometimes we'll have aproject that last several months.
So what we do at least once a week,even during the process when we're
(36:24):
waiting on things to be orderedand for permits, we just do an
update to tell 'em what's going on.
And oftentimes it, it could be a littleredundant because we told 'em last week.
Kind of the same thing and weposted it in their portal, but
everyone doesn't read the portal.
Everyone doesn't valueour portal like we do.
(36:46):
So in order to satisfy all mycustomers, I have to call them, I have
to text them, I have to email themand sometimes post on their portal.
And, uh, most people feel like wecare because we communicate so much.
Eric (37:01):
Yeah.
I mean, that's, uh, that, that's,that's your dream contractor, right?
There is somebody who's over-communicatingversus under-communicating.
I mean, so many peoplejust feel like they don't.
You know, they, they don't knowwhat's happening and they're not
part of the, the whole experience.
And so it just, you know, it's, it'seasy for, for the mind to wonder and
think, you know, oh, things aren't goingon and what, you know, what's, what's
(37:22):
happening and something must be wrong.
Like, you know, I think when you takethat time to keep them up to date, you
know, it really does get that, get thatbuy-in for 'em and gets them feeling like
they're, they're part of this journey.
You know?
I think that's, that'sabsolutely the way to go.
Gary (37:35):
I, I'm in, um, all these local business network, LBN groups, and they
teach very basic things about networking.
And they say that people, uh,hire companies that they like
and trust, like know, and trust.
That's their, their threelike know and trust.
So by being likable, by caring.
(37:59):
By, uh, following the lawsand simple basic stuff.
Hopefully people, you know, feel that, andthat's why they're able to move forward.
Our average job being $82,000, um,has been something that we had to, I
had to adjust because, um, much of mycareer, my average job was around 8,000.
(38:23):
Mm. So just replacing a roof for8,000 turned to replacing all the wood
and all the insulation with new trimand gutters or something like that.
So it's a completely different,uh, client experience when I
can't show up and leave that sameweek with your finished bathroom.
(38:43):
Sure.
Um, in fact, in Michigan we haveto pull electrical, plumbing.
HVAC and building permitsjust to remodel a bathroom.
Hmm.
So there could be upwardsof 10 inspections.
Wow.
And a bathroom could taketwo months to replace now.
(39:05):
Wow.
That's, uh,
Eric (39:07):
sounds like quite the process there.
Gary (39:10):
The, uh, in Michigan, the, uh, the building department believes
that everything should be inspected.
To prevent the homeowner from receivingsubpar work, um, I would want your
plumbing drain to definitely beinspected before you install mosaic, you
know, uh, marble tile in your shower.
(39:32):
That's, you know, it's not reversible.
Do so it's, it's valuable that theinspectors around here wanna see the
roof decking, that the wood is good.
That there's, um, ice and water shield inareas where you have snow is what keeps
you from having leaks in the winter time.
(39:53):
Yeah.
And it's an expensive product.
A lot of roofers, um, if no one werelooking and no one knew and they didn't
use it, they would pocket the money.
Hmm.
So an inspector's there tomake sure that the homeowner
doesn't receive a subpar job.
It all looks the same oncethe shingles are installed.
Yeah.
(40:13):
Yeah, no,
Eric (40:13):
that, that makes sense.
You know, I know it's, uh,d different in every, every
part of the country, you know?
So Course I'm curious, how, how do you,you know, do, do you, you got, you got a
lot of jobs going on with, sounds like alot of different potential trades are, are
you leveraging trade partners for this?
Do you have any in-house, youknow, carpenters, crews, like
(40:34):
how are you getting the workdone from a labor standpoint?
Gary (40:36):
So that is definitely, um.
Something worth talking about.
So I have, um, worked with all employees.
I've worked with all subs, and Inow have found a sweet spot in the
middle where I have a blend of both.
Okay?
So I own a dump truck, but I nearlynever use it anymore because it turns
(40:57):
out my, uh, sub contractor who has adump truck, he treats his dump truck a
lot better than he ever treated mine.
And my roofing installers would never,ever have the right amount of hammers
and ladders, and they'd always say,Hey, listen, the reason why this job
(41:19):
didn't get done today is 'cause, youknow, Bob didn't have a hammer all
day, and we only had one ladder, sowe couldn't work on the whole roof.
We only worked on the garage today.
Hmm, years later, those same guys, Iinvested in them and they invested in
their self and they developed theirown install company, and they found
out a way that every job that used totake two days now could be done in one.
(41:45):
They used to tear off theroof from the bottom up.
Now they go up to the top and tearoff the roof from the top down.
It couldn't be done before.
They said in under eight hours.
Now it's done in two hours.
The tear off.
It's funny how that happens, huh?
They said, uh, the, the first week theywere in business for themself, they
went and bought four extra hammers.
(42:06):
They said, we don't have time tosit around anymore and wait for
someone to bring us a hammer.
Huh?
They bought four more tear offbars and there was this guy, Brad,
who had been the job forever.
I hope he doesn't see this.
And Brad, uh, honestly, he was a reallynice guy, but I think he talked too much.
And so the guys were like,we're not bringing Brad anymore.
(42:27):
Because we can just do the workwithout Brad and still get it done.
So less guys now install roofsin less time, and they definitely
found ways to become more efficient.
They even bought an extra ladder now.
(42:47):
That's
Eric (42:48):
funny, you know, I mean, okay.
Goes to show man, you know, it's,it's all about finding the right,
the right combination of, of, of, ofworkers and, you know, however you
can get them as motivated as possible.
So it sounds like you invested andhelped them get set up as their
own, you know, their own business.
And boy, they, uh, they, they certainly,uh, got, got focused on that efficiency.
Gary (43:08):
So what I've had the good fortune of doing over the years is helping.
Great installers develop great businesses.
Um, I look at an install, aninstall business to be like a
partner for an installation.
So if I'm your roofer and uh, you'remy general contractor, you're in the
(43:29):
marketing and sales arena every day.
You're buying leads, you're runningappointments, you're getting
rejected, you're following up.
It's a whole process.
You meet a hundredpeople, you get 10 roofs.
Yep.
The installers don't needto hear about the 100.
They need to hear about the 10.
Yep.
So I try to prevent any installersfrom ever going to the job by doing
(43:51):
pre-construction work, as if they went tothe job, looking at it from their lens so
that they can run a profitable business.
Most great installersare great at installing.
When they're self-employed, they onaverage spend around half their time doing
(44:11):
the trade they're great at and half thetime struggling with the business end.
By the way, I'm talkingabout myself right now.
So where I found the greatest successover the years is helping an individual
develop a great install company wherehe can focus on going to installs
(44:33):
and performing grid installations.
He can be responsible for,um, managing the personnel
associated with that job site.
And then I work on my end on makingsure he is got so much work that he
can afford to pay people well and, and.
Ultimately, um, installersthat are specialists do the
(44:56):
best quality installation.
Your roofing contractor, God, Ihope he doesn't most of the time do
carpets, but today he's doing a roof.
Yeah.
'cause you have a differenttruck, you have a different setup,
you have a different training.
Sure.
So do you
Eric (45:11):
find that, are you, you know, from a cost perspective, you know.
Using your own guys versus using now,you know, a specialist who set up
their own company, a subcontractor.
How, how do you, how do youcompare the cost of those two?
Gary (45:27):
I hope my insurance agent watches this video.
I have learned that the best way forme to grow my company at this stage
is that internally my employees donot self perform most installations.
Door installation here and there.
(45:47):
Maybe if it's a scheduling situation, um,a small LVP laminate floor job, maybe.
But most of the time all of our projectmanagers do is work with our crews.
And work with our homeownersand be the liaison.
Hmm.
And so I, I have a great installer whois kind of like a handyman and he's
(46:11):
wonderful and he takes on all sorts ofprojects that involve painting with me.
I figure out the colors of thepaint, what walls they'll go on.
I get the paint, I keep it inside.
I schedule everything.
My painter shows up.
Performs his trade and sendsme a bill the same day.
(46:31):
He can keep moving from job to jobdoing wonderful painting because my
team and I take the measurements,figure out all the in-between stuff.
We have a dumpster there for debris, thehomeowner's scheduled, um, with a lockbox
so that they can show up and do their job.
We need them, of course.
(46:53):
They need us for thisrelationship to work each day.
Yeah.
And I have a job that I've been workingthrough for two and a half years,
and the contractor has never heardtheir name once until a week or two
or four before they start work there.
And within, um, days of when they start,they send me a juicy invoice and get paid.
(47:17):
All right.
Eric (47:19):
Sounds like you've really, you know, dialed this in to figure out the,
the, the, the optimal way to, to, tomanage this in, in the most efficient
and cost effective, you know, process.
And, and, and you're getting that qualitywork for that specific trade that you
need done while, while being able to,again, take on more jobs, maintain
your margins, you know, maintain yourcost, your schedule, 'em, and sounds
(47:40):
like you really dialed it in, man.
Gary (47:42):
Have you ever heard of equipped.
Equipped, or no, I haven'tEquipped is a fantastic company.
They own these special roof dumptrailers for, uh, roofing companies
and extends up to the roof line.
And when you tear off the roof, youthrow the debris into the equipped
or instead of on the ground.
Hmm.
(48:02):
You got a bunch of beautiful, uh, flowerswhen they tear off a roof, typically.
All the material from your roof landson the ground and you're landscaping.
Yeah, so the equipped, uh, has thesefantastic trailers that are motorized.
It's like a, a miniature vehicle, and itcan extend up to the roof and take all
(48:23):
that debris right into the dump, the dumptrailer, and then I can drive the dump
trailer to the foot of your driveway.
Maybe the dumpster's at the curb.
Yeah.
Instead of blocking your garage.
Uh, and so that, for example, is onepiece of equipment that, uh, I invest in.
I have, uh, spent almost, uh, over$150,000 on equips, and we just
(48:49):
had a new one delivered this week.
Nice.
And so each one of thoseprevents two to three laborers.
On a roof job.
Wow.
So if you were my subcontractor,if you get paid by the job, um,
let's say you look to make $6,000in labor for replacing a roof.
If I provide you with a machine thattakes two to three guys off your
(49:12):
payroll, that means that everyoneon the crew just got a raise.
Yeah.
And when you have a big roof job, thecrew often will get delayed, um, and their
schedule gets messed up because there'sa full day worth of cleanup and mess.
And if you do that by hand skilledguys that can install shingles, um,
(49:34):
those guys could be shingling nailshingling at the next job site.
So by providing an encrypter, myteam is able to do more roofs a week.
Collect more pay, and then myhomeowners are happier because the
install happens faster with less messand less damage to the landscaping.
Eric (49:59):
Oh, that's, uh, smart.
I just looked up at, it doesn't looklike, uh, we, we've got a, uh, a
place to rent the Equips in Dallas.
Looks like the nearest one's Austin,so Well, the good roof contractors
Gary (50:10):
own them.
Okay.
All right.
So they're buying it.
They buy 'em because you, every day,no matter what happens with your, um,
with personnel, unfortunately on roofs,on roof jobs, sometimes guys have stuff
come up and they don't make it to work.
If you can imagine.
Yeah.
Unfortunately it's hardwork, especially in Texas.
It's very hot down there.
(50:31):
Um, you burn your hand justtouching the surface of the roofing.
In Michigan when it's hot.
So, uh, that machineshows up every single day.
Um, it's got run flat tires on it.
You can run over 90 nails and it willstill operate tremendously reliable.
That's awesome.
A five man crew can do what aneight man crew is typically required
(50:53):
to do with just that machine.
It's awesome.
I love it.
So it'll be a money makerfor people that do roofing.
Eric (51:01):
Yeah.
Sounds, sounds, it soundslike a great hidden g There.
I, uh, I wanna ask you, so you, you've gota tagline there, the integrity guys, what,
what, what does that mean and, and how didyou, how did you come up with that tagline
and what does it represent for you?
Thank you.
Um,
Gary (51:19):
well, um, what I have found in my career of learning how to be
the best professional roofer andhome remodeler is that there are
a whole bunch of opportunities.
To cut corners and save money.
And ultimately the best results comefrom spending a little more money and
(51:42):
a little more time on the details.
So when you look from the lens ofwhat's allowed by code and what's
required by the install instructions,um, and then you just think about
what the, what a customer, what.
Their perspective is, um, we'reable to deliver a successful outcome
(52:06):
and always protect our integrity.
Uh, so I, I won't advertise that wehave roofs from 49 99 on Facebook.
I know a lot of guys out there thatget tons and tons of sales that
way, but you start off leading.
Folks that may not have the budgetfor what your services cost, and
(52:30):
then it's a kind of an uphill battle.
Instead, we start outconditioning folks that actually
roofing can be very expensive.
There's a lot of liability.
There's insurance that's required.
You can't just send out threeguys for the average roof.
You need like a full crew.
We talked about our motorizedequipped, um, it's different than
(52:50):
what it takes to, you know, to, to bea lawn cutting company, for example.
So, um, by focusing on quality, by beingof high integrity, we have been able to
establish ourself as a company capableof providing a custom solution complete.
Um, they wrote this really nicearticle in a big, in a big, uh, news
(53:14):
Detroit newspaper article, and theysaid that we take on the intricate,
complicated projects that mostcompanies would perhaps pass on.
And we create happy customers,um, from what would be, you know,
potentially like not the idealcustomer for one of our competitors.
(53:35):
Sure.
Eric (53:37):
Well, that's awesome, man.
I, I, I love that.
And I think, again, it it, you set thetone for, for, for your people, you
know, every job that they show up, youknow, every decision, every, you know,
time that they, that they representthe business, you know, they, they
have that in their mind, you know,that, that they need to uphold the
integrity of, of, of what you and thebrand and, and everything represents.
So I, I love it.
(53:58):
I love how you put itright there below the logo.
Gary (54:00):
Well, for your roof, for example, um, the roofers who are on your roof that
work for the general, uh, manager of thecrew who's doing your job, one person
is probably responsible if the roof isnot done right and every guy under them.
Has a limited future liability withyou, but the individual who you sign
(54:26):
with, they have accountability so they,so the parent company has no intention
of skimping out on your job, but aninstaller who shouldn't be on the roof
and they let him run a nail gun and heshouldn't, can do more bad than he can.
Good.
Yeah.
So what matters in that situationis what gets done about it.
When you see that your, your pressure'stoo high and you're shooting nails
(54:49):
through the shingles, and these shinglesare likely gonna blow off, do you stop?
Do you turn the compressor off?
Do you start tearing off theshingles until you find that
they're right, or do you just keepgoing and you go with the flow?
Yeah.
Um, there's a big name company in townthat's wonderful and they have a tagline,
(55:09):
something like, you know, we do theright thing even when no one's looking.
And I really like that.
And another company that's reallygood in town, they are, um, the
carpet guys and they're really good.
And so, um, my old I.
Longtime friend who unfortunatelypassed away, he thought that the
perfect tagline for our companywould be the integrity guys.
(55:31):
Because when we're ever trying to makea decision about something, we work
through the lens of integrity first.
So if it's not allowed, if it's notlegal, if it's not compliant with code,
if it's not intended to be done bythe manufacturer, it's not an option.
Yeah.
More services and problems happenwith installations because someone cut
(55:57):
corners with quality or with materials.
It's usually a $500 thingthat caused a $5,000 problem.
Hmm.
And so I believe in spending the 500 allthe time to avoid spending the 5,000.
Eric (56:15):
Yeah.
It's, uh, I, I, I love it, man.
So, as, as we wrap up here, Gary, I'm,I'm, I'm curious, do you, do you have any
final thoughts, you know, any, any advicethat, you know, when you think back about,
you know, your, your 20 or so years, youknow, being in construction, running a
business, working for others, startinganother business, like, is there anything
(56:36):
that you wish you would've known, youknow, if, if, if you were to start over,
like, what, what, what, what advice wouldyou give yourself, you know, that might
help others out there who are listening?
Absolutely.
First off,
Gary (56:47):
um, uh, I didn't find QuickBooks early enough and I didn't find a
good bookkeeper and a good CPA.
So I'm so glad that I have a bookkeeperand a CPA that are in harmony, and they
specialize in working with contractors.
So they're great at helping mekeep my books clean and orderly.
(57:10):
Um, so that's been something thattook me a long time to discover.
I think that, uh, the, the sooner thatI was able to stop spending money on
things that didn't generate money.
It allowed me to dial inand grow campaigns for lead
(57:31):
generation that did make money.
There's an endless opportunity of peoplethat will accept your advertising money
and not get you results, and there'sa bunch of gimmicks that you can spend
your money on that don't make money.
And then there are some thingsthat will work for your business
that you should do a lot.
(57:52):
I believe vehicle wraps, for example,have been something that have been
very effective for my company.
I get calls all the time,um, every day I'm driving.
Tom Rebar said in a podcast theother day that it's like three
or $4 a day to have your vehiclewrapped on average for $4 a day.
(58:12):
You put yourself out there to thepublic in the area where you're working.
No.
Eric (58:20):
Man, Jerry, this has, uh, this has been awesome.
I, uh, I, I, I really appreciateyou sharing, you know, your, your
whole story, your journey, you know,the challenges that you've had.
You know, again, you've,you've built a great business.
You obviously lead with integrity.
You've got a great team ofpeople, the projects that you're
doing, you know, top notch.
So I just appreciate you coming on hereand sharing all this with all of our
listeners today, you know, means a lot.
(58:42):
It's been exciting to watch youcontinue to grow over the last
several years, and I'm excited tosee where the future takes you, man.
Thank you very much.
I'm looking forward to the future.
Awesome.
Great job.
See you, man.
Thank you very much.
Thanks for joining us for thisepisode of Builder Stories.
We hope you enjoyed the conversationand gained valuable insights that can
(59:02):
help you in your journey along the way.
Don't forget to subscribe tothe show and leave us a review.
And as always, if you or someone youknow has a story to share, please
contact us@builderstories.com.
We'd love to hear from you.
I'm Eric Fortenberry, and remember,every builder has a unique story.
Keep building yours.
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