September 30, 2024 • 43 mins
The mysteries of “The Pitch” are uncovered in our latest episode of Burning Questions. Listen as Brent Hodgins, Managing Director of Mirren, pulls back the curtain with inside tips: pulling off the perfect pitch, avoiding the minefields, the favorites and the fillers, managing the process, and where AI fits into all of this. Whether you’re an agency or you hire them, this is essential listening to cut through the hype and bring order to the chaos.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:10):
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Welcome back to Burning Questions, a 500 Degrees
podcast.
Brent, welcome.
500 Degrees is a content development shop in
Toronto, Miami, Columbus, Ohio.
We do all the digital content for some
of the best QSRs on the planet.
So Burger King, Tim Hortons, Popeyes, and now
Firehouse Subs.
We work in the convenience store industry as
well as automotive industry.
(00:31):
Anybody that's a multi-unit retailer that has
a need for thousands of pieces of digital
content to be distributed to their platforms.
That's what we do day in, day out.
If you want to learn more about our
business, go to weare500degrees.com or click the
link or the QR code and go visit
us.
One of the joys of what I do
(00:52):
is coming into contact with brilliant people.
And we have one of those people here
with us today, Brent Hodges.
You're an international keynote speaker, not a domestic
keynote speaker, but an international keynote speaker.
You're an author.
You've had a great creative career and business
development career, some of the best shops on
the planet.
(01:13):
So McKinney, Chiat, Leo Burnett.
But most importantly, from a client perspective, as
well as an agency perspective, is what you
do at Mirren Business Development, as well as
the Mirren Live conferences, which I think you
are still fresh from recovering Mirren Live in
New York from last week.
And you also have the CEO version of
that coming up.
(01:35):
So Brent, welcome.
Tell us a little bit about how you
started Mirren.
And if you could just break down, is
there a benefit for clients as well as
for agencies?
How do you approach that?
We focus pretty exclusively on agencies, pretty specialized
in that space, helping agencies drive growth.
(01:56):
And I guess what originally inspired the notion
that there was an opportunity or a need
for more training for growth training, be it
for client facing teams on organic growth or
pitch teams on pitching business, goes back to
when I was still agency side.
And for the longest time, I thought that
(02:18):
I just happened to pick the only agencies
on the planet who were completely dysfunctional with
new business, with pitching.
It's like, how did I, you know, we're
so organized with our clients, our accounts, and
then these great pitches come along.
And it's sort of panic with a chance
of miracles hoping to come along to pull
(02:40):
off the pitch.
And before I went to Widening Kennedy, which
was the last agency I was at before
Mirren, I interviewed at six or seven of
the large New York shops and realized pretty
quickly, all right, everyone's dealing with the same
(03:00):
challenges.
Agency culture is so reactive.
And that comes through with new business where
all the deadlines are, you have to be
a little bit more proactive to be organized,
to get on top of the pitch, to
get everyone organized who's working on the pitch
(03:20):
on top of their day jobs.
And sort of the seed was sort of
planted then hang on, maybe there's an opportunity
to bring some order to the chaos of
growing an agency.
And when I went to Widening Kennedy, I
had sort of this mental framework that I
was using.
(03:41):
Part of the goal was to sort of
build a more proactive, a more organized new
business engine for the agency.
And I looked at it, not just for
Widening Kennedy, but could a set of methods,
principles, best practices be developed that could apply
to any agency.
So when I left Widen, it was with
(04:04):
the goal to start Mirren.
I think if I remember correctly, it was
on the heels also of seven months without
a day off, including weekends.
And I was burnt.
And I took about two or three months
off and then launched Mirren.
Initially focused just on new business, helping agencies
(04:26):
pitch business.
But then pretty quickly moved into working with
client-facing teams on organic growth as well.
It's been a big help for us.
I've been through a number of agencies, but
still stayed in contact with you and attended
your events.
My favorite thing that I've learned of many
(04:47):
is, are you favorite or filler?
And it's a question that agencies never really
ask themselves, unless they've been through your counsel,
because we get so hungry for, we've got
to plant a flag here.
Either we have a leaky bucket, which is
our business.
You're going to lose every client that you
(05:07):
have eventually.
So you have to have a sales development
process.
But the question of, are you favorite or
filler?
Most people go, how would you know?
But you have all sorts of ways to
figure out how we should know.
That is a big one.
What agencies, most agencies don't realize is when
(05:28):
you get the invite, I mean, agency people,
we just want to be loved.
We just want everyone to like us, to
love us, give us a hug once in
a while, keep us happy.
But we think that when we're being invited
to a pitch that they actually want us.
What most don't realize is that there's a
pitch participation quota that most companies have.
(05:51):
Whether it is looking for a new agency
or whether it's buying paper for the company,
X number of vendors must participate in the
review.
So they'll invite the agency or two that
they know will do a great job that
they know will not disappoint.
And then they'll invite the other 8, 10,
(06:12):
12, 15 to meet that pitch participation quota
number.
And often those are sourced by a Google
search, sending out an email to colleagues.
Who do you know?
Who have you worked with?
So a lot of agencies go in, not
even realizing they're in the hind pack.
And it's not that you're absolutely doomed to
(06:33):
lose the pitch.
But if you go in a little bit
too confident thinking you're in the lead pack
and operate accordingly, you're going to have some
challenges.
You have to come in even harder, even
stronger, and you have to better assess, are
we really what they're ultimately looking for?
(06:54):
Because another issue is, don't worry if you
have relevant experience.
It's okay.
We're looking for new, fresh ideas.
In fact, we want to shake up the
category.
We want something really creative.
And the challenge is that clients actually believe
that when they say it in the moment.
(07:15):
However, as the pitch progresses, those fears of,
all right, if I make a mistake here,
my job is on the line, not just
not hitting the metrics for the company, but
my job is on the line.
And that need to make a bit more
(07:36):
of a safer decision kicks in, in the
11th hour of the pitch, where that relevant
experience, depth of knowledge, plays more of a
significant role than most agencies realize.
Yep.
Particularly if the CEO finally comes in to,
you know, if you look at the scalar
chain of how it, it works, usually a
(07:58):
clerk director or manager level puts together the
RFP.
This is a big thing for them because
they were given the assignment to put the
RFP together.
And then the next level is that, well,
let's invite some folks.
There's always going to be the favorites.
And then there's going to be the seat
fillers.
And I learned from you the, what I
call it, the Columbo close.
You may not call it the Columbo close,
(08:19):
but at the end of a phone call,
when you actually reach them, you ask one
last question is how'd you hear about us?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kind of why us?
Yeah.
Bring it back around to how do you
suss out if you're in this hind, you
know, the behind in the pitch or one
of the favorites, the why us question.
(08:41):
And what's most important when you ask that
is that you give them the space to
answer or not answer it very well.
There's a lot of clues in, in what
they say.
So, and it's important that it's also not
confrontational, but it's almost from a perspective of
(09:02):
curiosity.
You know, so why us, what made you
give our agency a call?
And if there's a long moment of silence,
that's them, that's their inside voice going, I
meant to spend more time on their website,
reading up on these guys before this call.
Damn it.
So then you'll get a generic answer like,
(09:22):
well, we really, we really like your, your
work, you know, you're a great group of
people.
And if you get something generic, it needs
to be followed by, well, that's great.
You know, we love our, our work as
well.
We're pretty proud of the results we've been
able to achieve for our clients.
Which work in particular do you find most
relevant to your situation and the needs of
(09:45):
this brief?
And it's asked very diplomatically, very friendly, never,
you know, in a confrontational tone or condescending
tone.
And if they can't get specific, that means
they don't know you from Adam period, end
of story.
What you're looking for is specificity.
(10:06):
Well, that work that you did for that
client, it was absolutely genius and the results
just brilliant.
Oh, and the work that you did over
here, in fact, they read the case study
on this really interesting fact.
I'd love to ask you a questions about
that.
When you get that response, that's when you
know, you're the lead agency in, in the
pitch.
So that why ask question, giving it space.
(10:29):
I remember, you know, at Wieden, we learned,
we had to ask this question as well,
because everybody thinks they want to be Nike.
And we loved to brag about Nike.
And in fact, I remember one pitch, probably
not supposed to say this, but it goes
back a couple years and we were pitching
staples.
(10:49):
And so, you know, office supplies, retail, very
specific mindset.
And they in fact, asked us to present
the Nike case study.
So we're presenting it in the capabilities meeting
creative directors presenting it.
And I can see that the chief marketing
officer who came from Bain running the data
(11:11):
and analytics practice.
So we're presenting this very creatively driven case
study to a left brain data person.
And I can see her sort of sitting
back in her chair, arms crossed, kind of,
you know, and she's like, excuse me, I
just have to stop you here.
(11:33):
Why are you presenting the Nike case study?
We don't do celebrity endorsements.
We're not in sports.
We don't have several hundred million dollars.
So the creative director commented, of course, in
a very arrogant condescending tone.
Well, first of all, you asked us to
but it actually wasn't I'll come back around
to that point is the person managing the
(11:53):
pitch, not the decision maker.
But if you'll just listen to me, I
will explain to you how we are going
to transform the staples business.
And it Oh, my God.
Okay.
All right.
It might be easier if we just sort
of shake hands and save each other the
next hour of time here, but we went
on nonetheless.
(12:14):
And part of the issue here, also the
another minefield in the pitch process, is that
pitches are managed by a mid level marketing
manager, or they're not managed by the decision
maker, they don't have time to run reviews.
So now you've got someone giving you very
specific instructions guessing what they think their boss
(12:39):
what the decision maker wants, but they don't
have the same perspective on the organization, they
don't have the same pressures, the same accountability.
So you get misguided information, misguided direction, often
from the person who's managing the pitch.
That's a huge one that catches a lot
of agency shows up at tissue sessions.
(12:59):
Yeah, hey, we want to have a look
at strategy, maybe a bit of the creative
direction, give you some feedback.
But for some reason, the decision maker who
was scheduled to show up at the tissue
session doesn't in the end, now you're being
given some pretty bad advice in terms of
where to take everything.
So lots of minefields.
Well, you know, it's, it helps.
(13:21):
I think people are afraid of the momentum
that you develop in a pitch cycle, you're
kind of locked in like a tractor being
Star Trek.
And you just feel this obligation to complete.
And along the way, you you have to
have the ability to just opt out.
So for us, you know, we'll say, well,
(13:42):
our closing rates like 70%.
That's because we say no to a lot
of companies, sometimes in the middle of the
pitch.
And we will, you know, the process the
pitch, and we'll walk in particularly if we
can't get to the people that are going
to be at the final table or talk
to them, or we've we've actually stopped at
(14:04):
pitch when they said, Look, hey, the CEO
sends his apologies.
He's empowered all of us at this table
to make the decisions.
And you guys are, you know, we just
love what you guys have done so far.
And we've said, can't Matt Matt, you're giving
me flashbacks, you're giving me flashbacks to pitching.
I've heard that so many times.
Yeah.
Brent in the the art of the pitch,
(14:26):
either leading up to it or inside the
pitch the day of, what kind of advice
would you give somebody listening now that are
on the verge of getting in the door
and pitching?
Good question.
I'll see if I can distill down some
of the most important best practices.
Number one, you need to be clear if
you should even be in the room or
not.
A lead is not a lead until it
(14:49):
is qualified.
And until you are qualified.
Remember that clients are inviting their favorites and
fillers to meet their pitch participation quota.
So make sure you should even be in
the room.
That would be number one.
Number two, you must elevate the brief.
The brief is not written by the senior
(15:10):
decision maker who is slammed, who is busy,
who is focused on other things, they have
delegated the brief down to someone a level
or two below.
And it's important to elevate that brief, whatever
the request might be.
It's usually awareness is one of the top.
You know, we want to build awareness for
our new line of retail banking products, whatever
(15:31):
it might be, because you can spike awareness
and still not drive any new customers into
their banks.
NEOs and retail banking, new accounts opened is
a big KPI.
So you've got to elevate the brief, reinterpret
the brief, tie it to business KPIs, take
it to that level.
(15:52):
If you do not, you blend in with
the pack, you are a tactical vendor.
In fact, if you operate perfectly on brief
for a tactical brief, you're a tactical vendor.
I would say in the room, there's elements
of some principles from storytelling that apply.
(16:15):
And we need to bring some drama, some
engagement to that presentation.
In fact, there's an opening act in a
pitch presentation that is absolutely critical, and it
is magical to watch it unfold.
The opening act breaks into three pieces.
Number one, you set the client up as
the hero, you know, that they are worthy
(16:36):
of a big goal.
Maybe it's Swiffer Jets, you know, you have
transformed the mop category, you've created a recurring
revenue model, it is incredible what you have
achieved.
And because of that, we have a goal
to increase sell through at retail, to push
that needle as hard as we can.
(16:57):
But then you've got to talk about the
challenges that you have to overcome to be
able to achieve that big goal.
And it might be commoditization of the category,
knockoff brands, you've got to be frank, but
not condescending or arrogant, you've got to be
frank with the client about the challenges they
(17:20):
have to overcome that are together you have
to overcome with them to achieve the goal.
Often agencies want to pussyfoot around those challenges,
put a rosy lens, make the client feel,
no, clients appreciate strength of character, where you
can be frank, constructive, and be straight up
(17:43):
about what it's going to take to work.
So should you even be in the room,
focus on the client's business, add a little
bit of drama and engagement.
And yes, more can always be found at
admirin.com.
Great, great.
Appreciate your help.
You know, you got MarinLive as well, that's
(18:03):
going to be coming up.
When's the CEO conference?
Well, we might be shifting it now where
we're going to focus solely on AI this
fall.
We did an AI conference back in, gosh,
I think it was early February, we had
about 1300 people, that one was virtual only.
So I think we're going to combine our
CEO conference and AI into one coming up
(18:25):
late October, early November, most likely back in
New York again.
And our focus on AI is, let's cut
through the hype, all the hyperbole, like, let's
put it to work.
Here's stuff you can do right now to
be using AI at your agency to give
you a leg up.
Stay on the pitch for a moment, but
(18:48):
let's advance the ball to what I've seen
post-COVID.
And I'll call that the flight to safety.
So there seems to be a gap in
what I would call the middleware of agencies
that are full-service integrated agencies, some in
flyover states, some in big states, but they
have a couple of categories, they have a
(19:09):
great team, they do some media, they can
put together a campaign.
But after COVID, we saw a sweep of
some of the biggest agencies winning, winning, winning.
And when we questioned some of the client
prospects, it's like, look, we just can't mess
around anymore.
COVID devastated our business, we don't have any
(19:29):
time to second guess and do a trial,
we're going to have to go with some
of the bigs.
Or we want a very tight, not boutique,
but specialty agency that can deliver one, two,
three, or four credentials that we're missing in
our gap, because people have decided, I don't
want to work for IBM anymore, I want
to buy a Sprinter van and Zoom from
(19:52):
Malibu with a cup of coffee in our
hand.
So where do you, do you see that
sort of the middleware not being included, or
a need for them to sharpen their saw,
so to speak, in terms of their positioning,
and their ability to bring to life a
coherent story in a category or the work
that they do?
(20:12):
Yeah, we're definitely seeing this as well.
It's been noted from an M&A perspective
as well, where the smaller shops have become
hot targets.
And it is, I think, a bit of
a situation to your point where you've got
the smaller shops that are more nimble, agile,
(20:34):
often more specialized, or at least the ones
that are getting a lot more business certainly
have, and it's not always just one area
of specialization, it can be multiple, but they're
very effective at getting deep into a specific
category, or deep into a newer capability.
But, and the pricing tends to be a
(20:57):
little bit better there, they can compete in
that way.
And then you've got the safe bets, the
large, well resourced, can work on network plays
where they can share business back and forth
between the holding company.
And then you've got the middle group.
(21:17):
Now, I'm not convinced it's going to remain
like this.
And I think no matter what type of
agency or size of agency you're at, part
of it is building a balanced pipeline, where
you have choice.
So balanced pipeline, meaning moving beyond the RFP
(21:40):
addiction, and adding proactive prospecting, adding organic growth,
adding a digital, you know, a proactive digital
marketing program for the agency that is using
kind of almost HubSpot like inbound content marketing
to generate, nurture and actively create leads for
(22:05):
the agency.
And I think when an agency's pipeline is
solely dependent upon RFPs, or maybe Rolodex and
the network, once the Rolodex dries up, and
that happens at every agency.
And then you're only forced to focus on
RFPs.
Now you also feel this need to have
to say yes to the bad RFPs, to
(22:27):
the situations that your gut is telling you,
we need to run and not walk from
this situation.
But there's an undue pressure to say yes,
because you don't know when the phone is
going to ring again, as opposed to, you
have RFP options potentially coming in, but you've
got some choice.
Now you've got some balance there.
Well, we've got this proactive opportunity, we've been
(22:50):
digging deep into QSR or retail banking.
So we haven't pushed into the Northeast yet
with retail banking.
And we've got a couple of good meetings
set up.
Let's pass on these RFPs.
They look a little sketch anyways.
Let's focus on our proactive prospecting opportunities.
Plus, we've leaned in with a couple of
clients.
Some of those projects are going to be
(23:11):
coming to life now.
We've actually got lots of opportunity.
We don't have to say yes to every
single phone call that that comes in.
So I think building that balanced pipeline, like
any organization on the planet normally does, except
for agencies.
(23:32):
In fact, I was speaking at a conference
once, and I tried to get people to
name another industry that doesn't have dedicated sales
or more proactive efforts happening.
And I think I commented maybe the funeral
industry.
And someone said, Nope, I got a call
from them the other day and a couple
of emails.
So even there, they're out ahead of us.
(23:53):
So yeah, so I think that transcends size,
that transcends type.
Then, if you can overlay depth of category
knowledge, category specialization, but across multiple categories, so
you don't have all your, you know, eggs
in one basket, so to speak.
Yeah, I mean, we've gone down the path,
(24:15):
and several of the agencies that I've worked
with are managed or owned.
And we just narrowed it down to, you've
got to be able to speak the language
of the client, all their KPIs, you must
know their language.
It's great if you have somebody that has
worked on the client side and brings, you
know, a shoulder method of just bullying in
(24:37):
and understanding, hey, this person has worked on
the depression drug, fill in the blank what
the name is.
Therefore, we can win on this pharmacy pitch.
But narrow focus, saying no more, focus on
yes.
And then about the tool.
So you mentioned a little bit about the
technology of outbound marketing.
(24:57):
And we can talk about that a minute.
But let's go broader a little bit on
on AI.
You and I have lived in a world
where we have heard no less than a
half a dozen people state that they're going
to kill the agency model.
So back when Mike Ovitz ran CAA, and
he said, I'm going to eliminate the agency
business because I own all the creative resources,
(25:18):
or Mark Zuckerberg at Facebook, I'm eliminating that
middleware or the middleman agency, and I'll work
directly with clients.
Well, he didn't understand that clients didn't even
know how to use the platform.
Same thing with Sergei at Google.
So many people have said the ad industry
is dying.
It's funny how we immediately maybe because we're
(25:39):
just paranoid.
But we immediately go to how the industry
is going to die.
And then we figure out how to recover
like Lazarus from the ashes.
And will AI replace the agency model?
I don't think it will.
But I want your answer on that.
And then what are the things that you're
seeing in some of your training?
Because I went to the CEO conference.
(25:59):
When was that?
Was that last year?
Can't remember.
Yeah, last fall.
And that was a fascinating approach.
And it's changed since fall.
Inclusive of today.
Now, I can't stop using the AI assistant
in the upper right hand corner of my
PDF to summarize a 900 page RFP.
So talk a little bit about what you've
(26:20):
seen on the AI model, how it can
help us and what we have to watch
out for.
I think this is one of the most
exciting times in the agency business.
And I compare this back to the the
dot com boom, and when the the internet
really took off.
And of course, I'm dating myself by saying
that.
But I think the opportunity in terms of
(26:42):
using AI as a productivity, a strategic, a
creative booster, the opportunity here is tremendous.
And, you know, there's a saying that's been
going around for a while now, AI won't
take your job, someone using AI will.
That I do firmly believe.
(27:03):
We're using it every day here at Mirren
as well.
It's almost like having a really smart teammate
that you can have a banter with that
you can work with to help elevate your
work to help you get your work done
more quickly and even at a higher level.
I think the agency world has been slow
(27:26):
to embrace AI, far too slow.
We're seeing it in our training, we're seeing
it, you know, we had Mirren live.
Last week in New York, we had a
number of AI sessions again, based on the
questions that were coming in from the audience
and kind of polling that was going on
with the audience.
(27:47):
Not enough progress is happening.
And I think there's a large group that
are in the camp of is this just
one of the newest tech fads that this
is going to blow past over the next
few months or a year or so.
So they're kind of holding back.
Others a little bit frozen, I think overwhelmed.
(28:08):
There's, you know, even figuring out which applications,
which LLMs to use.
It can feel like boiling the ocean.
There's hundreds, there's thousands of applications to choose
from.
Policy, governance, privacy issues.
What can I put into GPT?
What can't I put in?
(28:29):
Clients that are starting to add clauses to
their MSAs in terms of you cannot use
AI in any fashion.
Unless you ask for permission to do so.
So I think the industry as a whole
is a little bit behind.
(28:50):
Creatives have embraced it faster than we expected
in a couple of ways, not only in
terms of creating for design and visuals and
storyboarding, but we're seeing creatives using it as
a brainstorming tool.
Like having another member of the team to
bounce ideas back and forth with and elevate
(29:12):
their thinking.
Media with programmatic, you know, data and analytics.
There's a number of groups that have embraced
it and will continue to.
I think a couple of areas where it
needs to be better utilized is strategic development,
day-to-day client management.
(29:33):
On the strategic development side, it is unbelievable
what you can get out of something as
simple as, you know, a clod or GPT
-4 for client business analysis, for creating journey
models, for creating personas, for creating synthetic target
audiences, where you build a simple, even a
(29:54):
custom GPT, where you upload all the data,
all the information.
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Welcome back to Burning Questions, a 500 Degrees
podcast.
Brent, welcome.
500 Degrees is a content development shop in
Toronto, Miami, Columbus, Ohio.
We do all the digital content for some
of the best QSRs on the planet.
So Burger King, Tim Hortons, Popeyes, and now
Firehouse Subs.
We work in the convenience store industry as
well as automotive industry.
(00:31):
Anybody that's a multi-unit retailer that has
a need for thousands of pieces of digital
content to be distributed to their platforms.
That's what we do day in, day out.
If you want to learn more about our
business, go to weare500degrees.com or click the
link or the QR code and go visit
us.
One of the joys of what I do
(00:52):
is coming into contact with brilliant people.
And we have one of those people here
with us today, Brent Hodges.
You're an international keynote speaker, not a domestic
keynote speaker, but an international keynote speaker.
You're an author.
You've had a great creative career and business
development career, some of the best shops on
the planet.
(01:13):
So McKinney, Chiat, Leo Burnett.
But most importantly, from a client perspective, as
well as an agency perspective, is what you
do at Mirren Business Development, as well as
the Mirren Live conferences, which I think you
are still fresh from recovering Mirren Live in
New York from last week.
And you also have the CEO version of
that coming up.
(01:35):
So Brent, welcome.
Tell us a little bit about how you
started Mirren.
And if you could just break down, is
there a benefit for clients as well as
for agencies?
How do you approach that?
We focus pretty exclusively on agencies, pretty specialized
in that space, helping agencies drive growth.
(01:56):
And I guess what originally inspired the notion
that there was an opportunity or a need
for more training for growth training, be it
for client facing teams on organic growth or
pitch teams on pitching business, goes back to
when I was still agency side.
And for the longest time, I thought that
(02:18):
I just happened to pick the only agencies
on the planet who were completely dysfunctional with
new business, with pitching.
It's like, how did I, you know, we're
so organized with our clients, our accounts, and
then these great pitches come along.
And it's sort of panic with a chance
of miracles hoping to come along to pull
(02:40):
off the pitch.
And before I went to Widening Kennedy, which
was the last agency I was at before
Mirren, I interviewed at six or seven of
the large New York shops and realized pretty
quickly, all right, everyone's dealing with the same
(03:00):
challenges.
Agency culture is so reactive.
And that comes through with new business where
all the deadlines are, you have to be
a little bit more proactive to be organized,
to get on top of the pitch, to
get everyone organized who's working on the pitch
(03:20):
on top of their day jobs.
And sort of the seed was sort of
planted then hang on, maybe there's an opportunity
to bring some order to the chaos of
growing an agency.
And when I went to Widening Kennedy, I
had sort of this mental framework that I
was using.
(03:41):
Part of the goal was to sort of
build a more proactive, a more organized new
business engine for the agency.
And I looked at it, not just for
Widening Kennedy, but could a set of methods,
principles, best practices be developed that could apply
to any agency.
So when I left Widen, it was with
(04:04):
the goal to start Mirren.
I think if I remember correctly, it was
on the heels also of seven months without
a day off, including weekends.
And I was burnt.
And I took about two or three months
off and then launched Mirren.
Initially focused just on new business, helping agencies
(04:26):
pitch business.
But then pretty quickly moved into working with
client-facing teams on organic growth as well.
It's been a big help for us.
I've been through a number of agencies, but
still stayed in contact with you and attended
your events.
My favorite thing that I've learned of many
(04:47):
is, are you favorite or filler?
And it's a question that agencies never really
ask themselves, unless they've been through your counsel,
because we get so hungry for, we've got
to plant a flag here.
Either we have a leaky bucket, which is
our business.
You're going to lose every client that you
(05:07):
have eventually.
So you have to have a sales development
process.
But the question of, are you favorite or
filler?
Most people go, how would you know?
But you have all sorts of ways to
figure out how we should know.
That is a big one.
What agencies, most agencies don't realize is when
(05:28):
you get the invite, I mean, agency people,
we just want to be loved.
We just want everyone to like us, to
love us, give us a hug once in
a while, keep us happy.
But we think that when we're being invited
to a pitch that they actually want us.
What most don't realize is that there's a
pitch participation quota that most companies have.
(05:51):
Whether it is looking for a new agency
or whether it's buying paper for the company,
X number of vendors must participate in the
review.
So they'll invite the agency or two that
they know will do a great job that
they know will not disappoint.
And then they'll invite the other 8, 10,
(06:12):
12, 15 to meet that pitch participation quota
number.
And often those are sourced by a Google
search, sending out an email to colleagues.
Who do you know?
Who have you worked with?
So a lot of agencies go in, not
even realizing they're in the hind pack.
And it's not that you're absolutely doomed to
(06:33):
lose the pitch.
But if you go in a little bit
too confident thinking you're in the lead pack
and operate accordingly, you're going to have some
challenges.
You have to come in even harder, even
stronger, and you have to better assess, are
we really what they're ultimately looking for?
(06:54):
Because another issue is, don't worry if you
have relevant experience.
It's okay.
We're looking for new, fresh ideas.
In fact, we want to shake up the
category.
We want something really creative.
And the challenge is that clients actually believe
that when they say it in the moment.
(07:15):
However, as the pitch progresses, those fears of,
all right, if I make a mistake here,
my job is on the line, not just
not hitting the metrics for the company, but
my job is on the line.
And that need to make a bit more
(07:36):
of a safer decision kicks in, in the
11th hour of the pitch, where that relevant
experience, depth of knowledge, plays more of a
significant role than most agencies realize.
Yep.
Particularly if the CEO finally comes in to,
you know, if you look at the scalar
chain of how it, it works, usually a
(07:58):
clerk director or manager level puts together the
RFP.
This is a big thing for them because
they were given the assignment to put the
RFP together.
And then the next level is that, well,
let's invite some folks.
There's always going to be the favorites.
And then there's going to be the seat
fillers.
And I learned from you the, what I
call it, the Columbo close.
You may not call it the Columbo close,
(08:19):
but at the end of a phone call,
when you actually reach them, you ask one
last question is how'd you hear about us?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kind of why us?
Yeah.
Bring it back around to how do you
suss out if you're in this hind, you
know, the behind in the pitch or one
of the favorites, the why us question.
(08:41):
And what's most important when you ask that
is that you give them the space to
answer or not answer it very well.
There's a lot of clues in, in what
they say.
So, and it's important that it's also not
confrontational, but it's almost from a perspective of
(09:02):
curiosity.
You know, so why us, what made you
give our agency a call?
And if there's a long moment of silence,
that's them, that's their inside voice going, I
meant to spend more time on their website,
reading up on these guys before this call.
Damn it.
So then you'll get a generic answer like,
(09:22):
well, we really, we really like your, your
work, you know, you're a great group of
people.
And if you get something generic, it needs
to be followed by, well, that's great.
You know, we love our, our work as
well.
We're pretty proud of the results we've been
able to achieve for our clients.
Which work in particular do you find most
relevant to your situation and the needs of
(09:45):
this brief?
And it's asked very diplomatically, very friendly, never,
you know, in a confrontational tone or condescending
tone.
And if they can't get specific, that means
they don't know you from Adam period, end
of story.
What you're looking for is specificity.
(10:06):
Well, that work that you did for that
client, it was absolutely genius and the results
just brilliant.
Oh, and the work that you did over
here, in fact, they read the case study
on this really interesting fact.
I'd love to ask you a questions about
that.
When you get that response, that's when you
know, you're the lead agency in, in the
pitch.
So that why ask question, giving it space.
(10:29):
I remember, you know, at Wieden, we learned,
we had to ask this question as well,
because everybody thinks they want to be Nike.
And we loved to brag about Nike.
And in fact, I remember one pitch, probably
not supposed to say this, but it goes
back a couple years and we were pitching
staples.
(10:49):
And so, you know, office supplies, retail, very
specific mindset.
And they in fact, asked us to present
the Nike case study.
So we're presenting it in the capabilities meeting
creative directors presenting it.
And I can see that the chief marketing
officer who came from Bain running the data
(11:11):
and analytics practice.
So we're presenting this very creatively driven case
study to a left brain data person.
And I can see her sort of sitting
back in her chair, arms crossed, kind of,
you know, and she's like, excuse me, I
just have to stop you here.
(11:33):
Why are you presenting the Nike case study?
We don't do celebrity endorsements.
We're not in sports.
We don't have several hundred million dollars.
So the creative director commented, of course, in
a very arrogant condescending tone.
Well, first of all, you asked us to
but it actually wasn't I'll come back around
to that point is the person managing the
(11:53):
pitch, not the decision maker.
But if you'll just listen to me, I
will explain to you how we are going
to transform the staples business.
And it Oh, my God.
Okay.
All right.
It might be easier if we just sort
of shake hands and save each other the
next hour of time here, but we went
on nonetheless.
(12:14):
And part of the issue here, also the
another minefield in the pitch process, is that
pitches are managed by a mid level marketing
manager, or they're not managed by the decision
maker, they don't have time to run reviews.
So now you've got someone giving you very
specific instructions guessing what they think their boss
(12:39):
what the decision maker wants, but they don't
have the same perspective on the organization, they
don't have the same pressures, the same accountability.
So you get misguided information, misguided direction, often
from the person who's managing the pitch.
That's a huge one that catches a lot
of agency shows up at tissue sessions.
(12:59):
Yeah, hey, we want to have a look
at strategy, maybe a bit of the creative
direction, give you some feedback.
But for some reason, the decision maker who
was scheduled to show up at the tissue
session doesn't in the end, now you're being
given some pretty bad advice in terms of
where to take everything.
So lots of minefields.
Well, you know, it's, it helps.
(13:21):
I think people are afraid of the momentum
that you develop in a pitch cycle, you're
kind of locked in like a tractor being
Star Trek.
And you just feel this obligation to complete.
And along the way, you you have to
have the ability to just opt out.
So for us, you know, we'll say, well,
(13:42):
our closing rates like 70%.
That's because we say no to a lot
of companies, sometimes in the middle of the
pitch.
And we will, you know, the process the
pitch, and we'll walk in particularly if we
can't get to the people that are going
to be at the final table or talk
to them, or we've we've actually stopped at
(14:04):
pitch when they said, Look, hey, the CEO
sends his apologies.
He's empowered all of us at this table
to make the decisions.
And you guys are, you know, we just
love what you guys have done so far.
And we've said, can't Matt Matt, you're giving
me flashbacks, you're giving me flashbacks to pitching.
I've heard that so many times.
Yeah.
Brent in the the art of the pitch,
(14:26):
either leading up to it or inside the
pitch the day of, what kind of advice
would you give somebody listening now that are
on the verge of getting in the door
and pitching?
Good question.
I'll see if I can distill down some
of the most important best practices.
Number one, you need to be clear if
you should even be in the room or
not.
A lead is not a lead until it
(14:49):
is qualified.
And until you are qualified.
Remember that clients are inviting their favorites and
fillers to meet their pitch participation quota.
So make sure you should even be in
the room.
That would be number one.
Number two, you must elevate the brief.
The brief is not written by the senior
(15:10):
decision maker who is slammed, who is busy,
who is focused on other things, they have
delegated the brief down to someone a level
or two below.
And it's important to elevate that brief, whatever
the request might be.
It's usually awareness is one of the top.
You know, we want to build awareness for
our new line of retail banking products, whatever
(15:31):
it might be, because you can spike awareness
and still not drive any new customers into
their banks.
NEOs and retail banking, new accounts opened is
a big KPI.
So you've got to elevate the brief, reinterpret
the brief, tie it to business KPIs, take
it to that level.
(15:52):
If you do not, you blend in with
the pack, you are a tactical vendor.
In fact, if you operate perfectly on brief
for a tactical brief, you're a tactical vendor.
I would say in the room, there's elements
of some principles from storytelling that apply.
(16:15):
And we need to bring some drama, some
engagement to that presentation.
In fact, there's an opening act in a
pitch presentation that is absolutely critical, and it
is magical to watch it unfold.
The opening act breaks into three pieces.
Number one, you set the client up as
the hero, you know, that they are worthy
(16:36):
of a big goal.
Maybe it's Swiffer Jets, you know, you have
transformed the mop category, you've created a recurring
revenue model, it is incredible what you have
achieved.
And because of that, we have a goal
to increase sell through at retail, to push
that needle as hard as we can.
(16:57):
But then you've got to talk about the
challenges that you have to overcome to be
able to achieve that big goal.
And it might be commoditization of the category,
knockoff brands, you've got to be frank, but
not condescending or arrogant, you've got to be
frank with the client about the challenges they
(17:20):
have to overcome that are together you have
to overcome with them to achieve the goal.
Often agencies want to pussyfoot around those challenges,
put a rosy lens, make the client feel,
no, clients appreciate strength of character, where you
can be frank, constructive, and be straight up
(17:43):
about what it's going to take to work.
So should you even be in the room,
focus on the client's business, add a little
bit of drama and engagement.
And yes, more can always be found at
admirin.com.
Great, great.
Appreciate your help.
You know, you got MarinLive as well, that's
(18:03):
going to be coming up.
When's the CEO conference?
Well, we might be shifting it now where
we're going to focus solely on AI this
fall.
We did an AI conference back in, gosh,
I think it was early February, we had
about 1300 people, that one was virtual only.
So I think we're going to combine our
CEO conference and AI into one coming up
(18:25):
late October, early November, most likely back in
New York again.
And our focus on AI is, let's cut
through the hype, all the hyperbole, like, let's
put it to work.
Here's stuff you can do right now to
be using AI at your agency to give
you a leg up.
Stay on the pitch for a moment, but
(18:48):
let's advance the ball to what I've seen
post-COVID.
And I'll call that the flight to safety.
So there seems to be a gap in
what I would call the middleware of agencies
that are full-service integrated agencies, some in
flyover states, some in big states, but they
have a couple of categories, they have a
(19:09):
great team, they do some media, they can
put together a campaign.
But after COVID, we saw a sweep of
some of the biggest agencies winning, winning, winning.
And when we questioned some of the client
prospects, it's like, look, we just can't mess
around anymore.
COVID devastated our business, we don't have any
(19:29):
time to second guess and do a trial,
we're going to have to go with some
of the bigs.
Or we want a very tight, not boutique,
but specialty agency that can deliver one, two,
three, or four credentials that we're missing in
our gap, because people have decided, I don't
want to work for IBM anymore, I want
to buy a Sprinter van and Zoom from
(19:52):
Malibu with a cup of coffee in our
hand.
So where do you, do you see that
sort of the middleware not being included, or
a need for them to sharpen their saw,
so to speak, in terms of their positioning,
and their ability to bring to life a
coherent story in a category or the work
that they do?
(20:12):
Yeah, we're definitely seeing this as well.
It's been noted from an M&A perspective
as well, where the smaller shops have become
hot targets.
And it is, I think, a bit of
a situation to your point where you've got
the smaller shops that are more nimble, agile,
(20:34):
often more specialized, or at least the ones
that are getting a lot more business certainly
have, and it's not always just one area
of specialization, it can be multiple, but they're
very effective at getting deep into a specific
category, or deep into a newer capability.
But, and the pricing tends to be a
(20:57):
little bit better there, they can compete in
that way.
And then you've got the safe bets, the
large, well resourced, can work on network plays
where they can share business back and forth
between the holding company.
And then you've got the middle group.
(21:17):
Now, I'm not convinced it's going to remain
like this.
And I think no matter what type of
agency or size of agency you're at, part
of it is building a balanced pipeline, where
you have choice.
So balanced pipeline, meaning moving beyond the RFP
(21:40):
addiction, and adding proactive prospecting, adding organic growth,
adding a digital, you know, a proactive digital
marketing program for the agency that is using
kind of almost HubSpot like inbound content marketing
to generate, nurture and actively create leads for
(22:05):
the agency.
And I think when an agency's pipeline is
solely dependent upon RFPs, or maybe Rolodex and
the network, once the Rolodex dries up, and
that happens at every agency.
And then you're only forced to focus on
RFPs.
Now you also feel this need to have
to say yes to the bad RFPs, to
(22:27):
the situations that your gut is telling you,
we need to run and not walk from
this situation.
But there's an undue pressure to say yes,
because you don't know when the phone is
going to ring again, as opposed to, you
have RFP options potentially coming in, but you've
got some choice.
Now you've got some balance there.
Well, we've got this proactive opportunity, we've been
(22:50):
digging deep into QSR or retail banking.
So we haven't pushed into the Northeast yet
with retail banking.
And we've got a couple of good meetings
set up.
Let's pass on these RFPs.
They look a little sketch anyways.
Let's focus on our proactive prospecting opportunities.
Plus, we've leaned in with a couple of
clients.
Some of those projects are going to be
(23:11):
coming to life now.
We've actually got lots of opportunity.
We don't have to say yes to every
single phone call that that comes in.
So I think building that balanced pipeline, like
any organization on the planet normally does, except
for agencies.
(23:32):
In fact, I was speaking at a conference
once, and I tried to get people to
name another industry that doesn't have dedicated sales
or more proactive efforts happening.
And I think I commented maybe the funeral
industry.
And someone said, Nope, I got a call
from them the other day and a couple
of emails.
So even there, they're out ahead of us.
(23:53):
So yeah, so I think that transcends size,
that transcends type.
Then, if you can overlay depth of category
knowledge, category specialization, but across multiple categories, so
you don't have all your, you know, eggs
in one basket, so to speak.
Yeah, I mean, we've gone down the path,
(24:15):
and several of the agencies that I've worked
with are managed or owned.
And we just narrowed it down to, you've
got to be able to speak the language
of the client, all their KPIs, you must
know their language.
It's great if you have somebody that has
worked on the client side and brings, you
know, a shoulder method of just bullying in
(24:37):
and understanding, hey, this person has worked on
the depression drug, fill in the blank what
the name is.
Therefore, we can win on this pharmacy pitch.
But narrow focus, saying no more, focus on
yes.
And then about the tool.
So you mentioned a little bit about the
technology of outbound marketing.
(24:57):
And we can talk about that a minute.
But let's go broader a little bit on
on AI.
You and I have lived in a world
where we have heard no less than a
half a dozen people state that they're going
to kill the agency model.
So back when Mike Ovitz ran CAA, and
he said, I'm going to eliminate the agency
business because I own all the creative resources,
(25:18):
or Mark Zuckerberg at Facebook, I'm eliminating that
middleware or the middleman agency, and I'll work
directly with clients.
Well, he didn't understand that clients didn't even
know how to use the platform.
Same thing with Sergei at Google.
So many people have said the ad industry
is dying.
It's funny how we immediately maybe because we're
(25:39):
just paranoid.
But we immediately go to how the industry
is going to die.
And then we figure out how to recover
like Lazarus from the ashes.
And will AI replace the agency model?
I don't think it will.
But I want your answer on that.
And then what are the things that you're
seeing in some of your training?
Because I went to the CEO conference.
(25:59):
When was that?
Was that last year?
Can't remember.
Yeah, last fall.
And that was a fascinating approach.
And it's changed since fall.
Inclusive of today.
Now, I can't stop using the AI assistant
in the upper right hand corner of my
PDF to summarize a 900 page RFP.
So talk a little bit about what you've
(26:20):
seen on the AI model, how it can
help us and what we have to watch
out for.
I think this is one of the most
exciting times in the agency business.
And I compare this back to the the
dot com boom, and when the the internet
really took off.
And of course, I'm dating myself by saying
that.
But I think the opportunity in terms of
(26:42):
using AI as a productivity, a strategic, a
creative booster, the opportunity here is tremendous.
And, you know, there's a saying that's been
going around for a while now, AI won't
take your job, someone using AI will.
That I do firmly believe.
(27:03):
We're using it every day here at Mirren
as well.
It's almost like having a really smart teammate
that you can have a banter with that
you can work with to help elevate your
work to help you get your work done
more quickly and even at a higher level.
I think the agency world has been slow
(27:26):
to embrace AI, far too slow.
We're seeing it in our training, we're seeing
it, you know, we had Mirren live.
Last week in New York, we had a
number of AI sessions again, based on the
questions that were coming in from the audience
and kind of polling that was going on
with the audience.
(27:47):
Not enough progress is happening.
And I think there's a large group that
are in the camp of is this just
one of the newest tech fads that this
is going to blow past over the next
few months or a year or so.
So they're kind of holding back.
Others a little bit frozen, I think overwhelmed.
(28:08):
There's, you know, even figuring out which applications,
which LLMs to use.
It can feel like boiling the ocean.
There's hundreds, there's thousands of applications to choose
from.
Policy, governance, privacy issues.
What can I put into GPT?
What can't I put in?
(28:29):
Clients that are starting to add clauses to
their MSAs in terms of you cannot use
AI in any fashion.
Unless you ask for permission to do so.
So I think the industry as a whole
is a little bit behind.
(28:50):
Creatives have embraced it faster than we expected
in a couple of ways, not only in
terms of creating for design and visuals and
storyboarding, but we're seeing creatives using it as
a brainstorming tool.
Like having another member of the team to
bounce ideas back and forth with and elevate
(29:12):
their thinking.
Media with programmatic, you know, data and analytics.
There's a number of groups that have embraced
it and will continue to.
I think a couple of areas where it
needs to be better utilized is strategic development,
day-to-day client management.
(29:33):
On the strategic development side, it is unbelievable
what you can get out of something as
simple as, you know, a clod or GPT
-4 for client business analysis, for creating journey
models, for creating personas, for creating synthetic target
audiences, where you build a simple, even a
(29:54):
custom GPT, where you upload all the data,
all the information.
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