June 24, 2025 • 49 mins
Caribbean-American women are leaders—but do our workplaces recognize that? In this episode, Dr. Kerry Mitchell Brown joins me to unpack how cultural identity is a leadership strength. From code-switching to radical self-care, we explore what it means to lead boldly, confidently, and Caribbean.
Takeaways:
- Cultural identity is not a weakness—it’s a strategic advantage.
- Workplace narratives can be rewritten through self-awareness and storytelling.
- Radical self-care is essential for sustainability and impact.
- Leadership doesn’t require a title—it’s about influence and clarity of purpose.
- You can’t do it all at once—and that’s okay.
Connect with Dr. Kerry - https://kerrymitchellbrown.com/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode
of Carry On Friends theCaribbean American Experience.
I'm your host, carrie-anne, andtoday we're going to be diving
into a very relevant layeredconversation that's been
building on this podcast sinceits inception, and one that
connects our cultural heritageto how we show up and lead in
(00:27):
the workplace.
Now, if you've been listeningto the podcast for a minute, you
might remember I've mentioned aworkshop called Confidently
Caribbean at Work, and this wasrecorded many, many years ago.
I think this was in 2020.
And before that, we've just hadmany conversations about
working.
Now, one of the things that youknow that is important to me is
(00:51):
our professional strength has alot of our culture and heritage
behind it.
It's a leadership asset or aheritage, and it's a strategic
advantage, right, and so todayI'm glad to be taking the
conversation even further withsomeone who brings a fresh,
outsider, yet very connected andresearched perspective, and
(01:15):
that is Dr Kerry Mitchell Brown,yes, who carries on the podcast
today.
And oh, carrie, and the lastname too.
Imagine that right.
So, even though Dr Brown isn'tof Caribbean heritage herself,
she works with women ofCaribbean heritage and her work
powerfully validates some of thethings that we've been
(01:39):
discussing on the podcast andsomething that I've been working
or developing with theCaribbean Diaspora Experience
Model, and somethingparticularly as heritage, as a
professional strength.
Dr Keri Mitchell-Brown is anationally recognized
organizational theorist,leadership strategist, who's
(02:00):
been working not only withCaribbean women but Black women
across all sectors to developwhat she calls transformative
leadership rooted in culturalintelligence, community and
radical self-care.
Dr Carey, welcome to thepodcast.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I am amazing and I am so glad to be here with you.
I've been following Care OnWith Friends for a little bit
now and I love, love, love, love, love how you created space for
these authentic conversationsabout the Caribbean experience
here in these United States.
(02:40):
I know, and you know, it is sofunny how we both have the same
name, almost, so this connectionmakes me feel like this
conversation was just meant tohappen.
Absolutely, absolutely Carrie,carrie, carrie, and so I didn't
have a middle name formallygrowing up, and so I adopted
(03:05):
Anne as my middle name right,and Brown is my married name, so
I'm Carrie, anne Brown too, asfar as I'm concerned.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
No, this is.
And you fall right in becauseyou know the saying goes.
You know, if you meet a Carrieor a Carrie Anne, there's a
chance that there's a Jamaicanroot somewhere in there and it's
spelled exactly the same andthat is so rare because it's the
male version spelling of Carrie.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
So I'm exactly in the right place at the right time
having this conversation.
And, carrie Ann, you arecorrect, I do not have Caribbean
heritage.
But as a Black girl growing upin the Midwest Omaha Nebraska to
be exact I didn't have a wholelot of exposure to Caribbean
(03:58):
people, much in the Midwestgrowing up.
But all of that changed when Iwent to college.
So, moving from the Midwest tothe East Coast in a city where
there were just a lot oftransient folks it was a
military town and in thatenvironment there were Caribbean
(04:22):
folks, caribbean women becamesome of my closest and strongest
connections and theserelationships they date back 30
plus years and they have reallybeen foundational to who I am
today.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Wonderful, All right.
So let's take a step back andstart with your background and
your profession as it is.
Could you tell us a little bitabout that?
And then we'll get into thework specifically with Caribbean
Women.
You know I did say you're anorganizational theorist, but
what exactly is the work thatyou do and how are you working
(04:59):
with women across the board?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Sure.
So I studied organizations aspart of my doctoral studies,
both in practice and in movingthrough organizations, and was
really interested in how Blackwomen both navigated and not
just survived in organizationsbut actually thrived in
(05:23):
organizations.
And I started doing that withinorganizations through their
organization developmentdepartment, and then, several
years later, started my ownconsultancy.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
What fascinates me about the work that you do.
As I mentioned in the priorworkshops that I did, I had like
this handout because I had tolearn the hard way how to
navigate the workplace, becausemy parents and when I say
parents, I use that term broadly, because in the Caribbean we
are a multi-generational familystructure, so I'm talking my
(06:01):
uncles, my grandparents, youknow the aunties and stuff,
including my parents' parentsand they didn't really teach us
on how to show up or to work andsucceed in American corporate
structure or American corporatelife.
The shock of my life when, in2000, let me back up, let me
(06:26):
make sure I get this clear so upuntil 2010, I was good because
I was working with a generationof Americans, maybe the older
generation, who were veryfocused on let's get this work
done heads down.
And then I think, when theyounger generation came into the
workplace and wanted to be alittle bit more social and
(06:48):
friendly, that was verydifferent from what my Caribbean
upbringing would say, that thisis how you should go to work
and how the older generation,maybe the boomer generation and
the generation before, wereoperating.
And this became very challengingfor me, and so one of the
things that I did was I came upwith this worksheet for people
(07:11):
to try to identify what type oforganization they were in, so I
said all of that.
To get to this thing aboutorganizations, have you figured
out archetypes for differentorganization in your work?
Maybe you don't, but I'm justcurious.
Are organizations in general orbroad are archetypes that can
help you decode certain thingsabout how the organization
(07:35):
functions?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
It's all very different and dependent upon the
organization and, moreimportantly, their culture,
right, and it's all verydifferent, right?
So the person who leads or thegroup who leads the organization
, they set the tone for whatthat organization does.
It's not necessarily or alwaysabout the policies of the
(08:01):
organization, is what people doand how they enact those
policies.
There are always systems thatsignal to us what matters and
what doesn't, and who matters inthose systems and who does not.
Right, and depending upon howfar someone is from the what I
(08:25):
call the denomination line andthose are factors related to all
types of identities that makeup who we are often will
(08:48):
determine, you know, what sideof that equation you are on the
important or not so important.
And so it varies acrossdifferent types of organizations
, different types of governingstructures.
A lot of times, you know,they're in categories around
corporate structures andprogressive structures, and
sometimes there's a whole lot ofoverlap, right?
And it's really about theculture, like, what do the
(09:10):
people who lead theseorganizations espouse about
their values and about theoutcome and how they treat the
people who actually make up theorganization?
And then, what are the internalsystems that manage the people
from the start on?
What attracts them there, howthey treat people while they're
(09:33):
there and the process when theyleave, either voluntarily or as
people are forced out, areforced out.
So it's not as cut and dry, youknow, as it used to be when you
know there were.
It's not as diverse of aworkforce as we have when we
have multiple generations, youknow, within a workforce.
(09:56):
But what I would say aboutorganizations is that they are
perfectly designed to get theoutcomes that they get, which
means that you can change them.
Like organizations are ran byhumans, right, and you can
influence human behavior.
(10:16):
And that's often what's missedin these practices around
organizations is if they're justthese standalone brick and
mortars that just are what theyare, neutral in that they can't
be changed, but they absolutelycan be changed and they can be
changed for good to where theyserve the majority of the
(10:39):
population instead of a selectfew, the majority of the
population instead of a selectfew.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Wonderful.
So organizations there's no oneset way, there's no archetype
for an organization.
It varies based on theleadership, the culture.
The culture is intangible.
It's people, what they do, howthey do it, what they say don't
say all that other good stuffand I think one of the things
that you've said isorganizations are run by people,
and if they're run by people,you can influence human behavior
(11:14):
.
So that's a critical point.
So let's get back to whatbrought you here.
So you've observed Caribbeanwomen in leadership roles, or
you've observed Caribbean womenjust in work, right, and I mean
other than your move fromNebraska to a place where there
(11:37):
was just a lot more people thatyou're interacting with from all
cultures.
What really drove you toexplore leadership when it comes
to Caribbean women?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Well, I've had the privilege to walk alongside
these incredible leaders asthey've navigated environments
not designed for their successor success for Black women in
general.
I was in these environments aswell and these have been some of
the most powerful groundedrelationships in my life.
So relationships built on loveand care, not just collective
(12:12):
pain or trauma.
And I've had the privilege towitness firsthand their
brilliance, their resilience andinnovative approaches to
leadership, and I would say,first as colleagues and as
co-workers, and then through myconsulting work and the most
meaningful and dear friends inthis journey called Life.
(12:34):
Some of my biggestcollaborators now are Caribbean
women and you know we worktogether on projects, we work
together in leadership.
So in your work, you know wework together on projects, we
work together in leadership.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
So in your work you describe cultural intelligence
as a superpower.
Cultural intelligence could wedefine that?
And then let's talk about howdoes that show up practically at
work no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
You know where they come from, their preferences
around.
You know communication.
You know something morerecently the preferences around
pronouns, preferences aroundcommunication styles and just a
number of things, and often,sometimes, what we don't talk
about is you know preferencesaround or processes around,
(13:59):
assimilation to the dominantculture, right, but what that
means is teaching us to learnabout everyone else where you
spend a lot of time and energy,and often at the expense of
leaving your culture at home, orat least at the door right home
(14:28):
, or at least at the door right.
And what I like to talk about,and where I say to use you know
culture as your superpower, isthis mentioning that it's not
just social skill, right, and soI'll share with you something
around one of my clients andalso a friend, and through my
years of research and close workwith Caribbean American women
(14:53):
leaders, there's something thatI observed that I would say is
pretty remarkable is the waythat they have navigated
multiple worlds Right.
They have navigated multipleworlds right.
So you talk, carrie-anne, aboutthe lessons that you learned
from your uncles and your family, your large generational family
(15:14):
, about how to move and to workboth at home and community and
the workplace here in the US,and I've witnessed these women
to code switch without eventhinking about it.
Right, they move betweencultural spaces with ease, and
(15:35):
that's just not a cultural skill.
That's like a superpower, right.
The ability to engage withfolks not from the Caribbean
culture and the ability toimmediately slip in to a
Caribbean dialect with someonethat you know is from your
(15:57):
island or a neighboring island,and in a way that you all feel
at home with each other right ina meeting or a breakout room,
just to have a culturalconnection and then right back
into the space, right, and so,just thinking about that, in a
global marketplace, who's betterto bridge that than someone
(16:22):
who's been doing it their entirelife?
That than someone who's beendoing it their entire life?
Right, like that's a superpower.
Most people that have lived inone particular environment and
you know if I use myself, forexample like living and growing
up in the Midwest and you knowmoving to the East Coast a
little bit of different, butthat's not changing worlds.
(16:43):
Right, it's changing a littlebit of different, but that's not
changing worlds right, changingmajor, major environments.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
I appreciate the word superpower because a lot of
times when I do just that, evenhere on the podcast, people are
like whoa, and I believe it's asuperpower.
I think there's a place wherepeople feel like but I don't
want to code switch, but I thinkit's not code switching and
there's a future episode comingup.
It's language right, so goinginto or you know our accent or
(17:13):
language.
It is a separate language, sowe don't think of it as being
bilingual, but in a way it is.
You know, and so you know.
It's no different than someonegoes from French to English,
spanish to English and viceversa, and that is why I see it
as a superpower.
But also, I think for a lot ofpeople they don't have the gift
(17:37):
that I've been given to do thispodcast and over 10 years to
appreciate that, but because itcomes so natural, it's an
everyday thing.
You don't think of it as asuperpower, it's just something
that you do.
So, in terms of how CaribbeanAmerican women, or Caribbean
American broadly, can leveragethis superpower in work, how
(17:59):
does this come into play?
Maybe not everyone works in aglobal company, but how can they
use this superpower to level uptheir leadership at work.
How do you see that in play?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Don't hide it, like when we bring our full selves to
work.
I mean, it's like leaving apart of yourself at home, and
when you, you know, break partsof yourself off, then you can't
be your very best, right.
And so don't hide yourCaribbean perspective.
It helps you to see solutionsthat others miss, because people
(18:35):
can make you feel funny, andnot in a good way, about your
accent or the way you wear yourhair or the way that you look
and that pulls you off your gameand you're second guessing
should you do this or should yoube that, or should you hide
this?
And where does that leave spacefor your brilliance to shine
(18:57):
and to show through?
So I say, you know, and one ofmy approaches is to embrace it,
just to embrace it.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
I think it would be, you know, a very big oversight
if I didn't bring up this point.
So, even before our currentpolitical climate, you know,
this idea of being confidentlyCaribbean or whatever I would
say, was like oh wait a minute,because it's not something that,
(19:29):
as you said before, you don'tannounce it at the door.
You know, I can tell you howpeople knew I was Jamaican at
work, is you know?
Someone on my family would callme, and then I went into it and
then someone rolls over on thechair and like, did I hear an
accent?
You know that type of thing.
So much less now where there'sa lot going on and people may
(19:52):
not feel so confident aboutletting people know about their
cultural heritage because thereare assumptions that come with
that, assumptions that come withthat.
So, given the realities of ourcurrent political climate, how
do you still encourage people tolean in with this cultural
(20:14):
intelligence and their identityat work?
Speaker 2 (20:17):
people will make it up right.
So if you don't engage with thethings that people assume and
share the information that youare willing to share, well, then
they'll make up whatever theywant to make up.
So, for example, I got marriedyoung.
(20:39):
I had kids, young People thatlooked at me.
They had no idea how old I wasand there was one part of me
that was like who cares?
And why should you know how oldI am?
But they had that mystery theywere making up stories about,
well, I was a teen mom or I wasall of these things that I was.
(21:04):
Not that that there was anythingwrong with it, but it became a
part of my story that I couldnot control and I wanted people
to be in rooms talking about myimpact, not what they didn't add
to my superpower, that didn'tadd to the growth or the
(21:26):
potential for my trajectorywithin the organization.
That aligned with my goals.
Right, and so that's just whoyou are.
You're not going to be able toerase it, but it also gives you
information on a decision aboutis this the place where you want
to be, is this where you wantto hang your hat, or should you
(21:48):
be working on your exit strategy?
Speaker 1 (21:50):
All wonderful things.
I mean, you are probably aperson I was looking for back in
2012, 2013, when I was justnavigating this solo and it's
like wait a minute 30, when Iwas just navigating this solo
and it's like wait a minute.
The narrative that was createdabout me and there is a
narrative that's created is thatI was mean and unfriendly, and
(22:13):
every time I thought back towhen they made the comment.
I was like but they werewalking past my office and my
face is buried in a computerscreen.
If you want to say hi, come inand say hi, but there was an
expectation that I would say hifirst.
I'm like I didn't even see you,you know, or I'm just really
heads down, focused on my work.
I'm in a zone and it's justlike you're mean and I'm like
(22:36):
but I'm not.
You know.
So people will create thesenarratives and then, before you
(22:56):
know it, you know some of thesepeople.
They have the air of otherpeople And're hearing it from
they can take that to be true.
So what you're saying isabsolutely critical, like part
of this is taking control of thenarrative and your personal
brand at work.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Yeah, and there's something that's magical, too,
around storytelling, likeCaribbean cultures, value, like
oral tradition, and myexperience of Caribbean
storytelling it's great.
It connects people to yourvision Anything more powerful
(23:35):
than someone else telling yourstory and anything more powerful
than any PowerPointpresentation, even if it had AI
enhancements.
Right, and so use yourpredictions, use your
superpowers, use who you are.
It's in your DNA, it's in yourbones and it may not work in
(24:00):
this moment, in this time, butthe more practice you are with
doing it when it actually counts, it's going to matter so much
(24:21):
and you won't even lookorganization and you know
similar.
I'm not here to make friends,I'm here to keep my head down.
She had so many people countingon her, her family back in the
islands and her family here aswell.
I mean, she was a breadwinnerfor many households and I just
(24:47):
kept saying just be your full.
You are so amazing.
Just be your full selfeverywhere you go.
She stopped hiding who she was,her cultural intelligence, and
stopped worrying about the waythat people would perceive but
they were perceiving hersomething very different from
(25:08):
who she was, and the moment shestopped doing that, stopped
worrying about the people whowere intimidated about her full
brilliance.
She helped her company seesolutions that others missed.
She used her understandingabout economics from the work
(25:30):
that she did back home thatcompletely reimagined her
company's approach to emergingmarkets, like they were wanting
to move into a space no one hadeven thought about.
She had been sitting on a goldmine and, as a result, she was
protected.
(25:51):
She was sponsored by executivesin a way that nobody had even
imagined was possible forsomeone with her background, and
so what I mean by this?
They were clear about her value, they were clear about her
impact and, guess what?
Nobody messed with her.
Here on out.
(26:11):
All she had to do was beherself and to show up and cut
out all the noise and all thosefolks who were, you know, just
being aggressive for no reasonbecause they were close to that
power line, who ultimately hadno power.
She were all their supervisors.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
You said so many things in here that I know I
have to unpack.
So that is a wonderful story.
You said perception, but thereare some people who are working
from the fear because of whatwas done to them in a prior
organization when it came totheir cultural identity and
(26:56):
presenting as such at work.
So there is a place wherepeople may have wanted to do
that, but something negativehappened to them.
And so what do you say to thosepeople who have been hurt by
initially being confident andpresenting that?
I'm a proud Caribbean Americanwoman and you know they may have
(27:21):
lost a job, they may have gotdemoted, they had adverse
actions taken against them,whether officially or in
microaggression.
So what would you say to themabout how they show up at work?
I think the key piece, which Idon't know how to unlock it how
(27:42):
much of the organizationalpersonality should you be paying
attention to to determine howmuch you are showing, you know,
leaning forward with yourheritage at work?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Right.
But here's the thing we have todo our research and making the
determinations on.
We have a choice in where wework Right.
We have a choice and you knowwho we give our time to Like.
We are a gift to theseorganizations.
We can choose and sometimes wedon't always choose right.
I know I hadn't always choseright and sometimes I know very
early on and I begin working onmy exit strategy.
I partner with other folks onworking on an exit strategy on
ooh, this feels funny and not ina good way.
(28:41):
How do I get out?
Partner with people like me?
I mean, I help women do that.
Do the analysis on is this theright fit?
We have to be clear about thetypes of companies that we want
to work for.
Sometimes we are settingourselves up to work for our own
(29:02):
companies right, asking thequestions and when we go and
interview for a job we shouldhold very closely.
Not only are they interviewingus, we should be interviewing
them as well.
And if we hear those thingslike, we know what it feels like
in those environments whenwe've been on the other end of
(29:25):
the continuum, where we were nottreated fairly, where we were
not respected, where we were notvalued where we felt like we
didn't belong.
Not all companies, not allorganizations are that way and
we have to hold that.
When we bump into those thatare not that, make the decision,
(29:45):
because life is short.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Yeah, what you're saying, too, goes back to the
other thing that I really wantto make sure that you answer
what happens to people who haveexperienced this hurt and what
happens to people who just don'thave the choice.
Given the economy we're in, Iwant to leave this job, but I
need this job because the jobmarket is crappy and I can't
just leave this job.
So you know, we do understandchoice, but with the market
(30:12):
there isn't much choice and wedo know that there's this level
of intelligence that comes withmy heritage.
But I can't really do thatbased on my environment.
Or maybe they're still at theplace that kind of treated them
funny because they were verybold about their heritage, and
maybe they're still, you know,reluctant because of that.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
So what do you say to , you know, these group of
people who can't leave and thosewho've experienced that, and
those who've experienced that,yes, I've been there too and in
those situations for myself, andthat I will advise others is to
prioritize self-care Right.
And so you know, figure outwhat your boundaries are, figure
(30:56):
out what your non-negotiablesare Right.
Negotiables are right, and somaybe you decide, like, what are
the things that you have to?
You know, leave at the doorwhen you walk in and still be in
a position where you can honoryourself and feel good about
(31:17):
yourself.
Take your PTO time.
You know, utilize your sicktime.
Make sure you are leveragingall of your health care, all
your mental health care.
You know, making sure you'reputting things in place so
you're not burning yourself outand find those moments of joy
(31:40):
and when you do enjoy, the heckout of it because you are going
to need it.
You know, love on your family,embrace your family and work on
an exit strategy.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
I could tell you that's real.
You know, that's the radicalself-care part that I want to
get to, because there was amoment I was feeling very
frustrated at work and I justhad to take a step back.
And you know, most of us, weknow ourselves, we of check
myself.
But I also knew that I couldn'tcontinuously check myself.
(32:20):
I had to get accountability,like I would say, hey, if you
see me doing this, check in andtell me like time out.
You know, if you see mecomplaining too much, you'd be
like girl, it's time to takethat half day PTO or something,
because we can't control theorganization.
We can influence it, but wecan't control it.
(32:41):
I can only control myself andmy actions.
And so I have my PTO, I havesick day and create boundaries
around how I don't want to sayhow I want to spend my day, but
how I want to experience myworkday and what I want to be at
the end of that workday beforeI go home to my family.
(33:02):
And so this idea of radicalself-care is really radical,
because you've pointed out thatCaribbean American women and
Caribbean people, they'rehardworking people.
So this idea of radicalself-care sometimes is like we
just work hard and that's theone mode that we have.
Talk to me about some of thetips that you feel are important
(33:22):
for us to exercise this radicalself-care, especially if we're
in organizations that we can'treally make the move right now.
It's not the right fit and sowe have to maintain until we can
do better.
Or maybe you are a hard workerand you love your organization,
but you still need some radicalself-care because you know, if
(33:43):
you don't, maybe you burn outtoo quickly.
So talk to me about some ofthose things.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I mean sometimes radical self-care is like I have
to continue to learn, I have tocontinue to go, I have to
continue to grind.
What's their professionaldevelopment policy?
Invest in yourself while you'rethere.
If they have tuitionreimbursement, so maybe you go
to school to get some moreeducation, maybe you get a
(34:09):
certification.
Go hard on how you continue toinvest in yourself without
getting yourself locked in.
Some of those have loopholes.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
If they pay for emails, you know late at night.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Maybe you know you're not taking on, you know,
additional projects.
You're not signing on foradditional work.
Like setting some boundaries,you know, for like for yourself.
Get you an accountability buddyCarrie Ann, that was a of the
things that you said.
Like talking to somebody makingsure that you don't contribute
(35:01):
to the noise.
Like putting some boundariesaround you know, sort of how you
are feeling.
Like don't promobond withanyone else.
Like in the organization.
This manager is so awful this iswhat it is Because that doesn't
help you right.
That pulls you further into thegarbage and you want to, you
know, release yourself.
Work on your exit strategy.
(35:23):
What is your next job If youwant to hustle?
Build yourself a side hustle,set up a side hustle so you will
have some.
You know y'all not going tocontinue to do just to me money.
Um, so when you do need topivot, if you hadn't found
yourself something, you have alittle bit of cushion.
There are a number of thingsthat you can do, but all that's
(35:45):
focused on investing in you anddetermining what your next moves
, you know may be.
Ask to do some shadowing withanother department, with another
team, pick up you know a newskill.
Exploring some more about theorganization you know, or the
industry, or the, or the field,like, if you're going to go hard
(36:08):
, go hard on something that'sgoing to matter for the next
three positions that you'regoing to take up.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
So when you talked about the trauma bonding, I can
tell you that that is a criticalpiece.
Like you know, when you're at acompany or you're in a place
where you're kind of frustrated,everything annoys you and then
you get caught up in the emotionof it and I think you know,
speaking from experience, itmakes it worse.
You know the situation and youkind of have to start.
You know, speaking fromexperience, it makes it worse.
(36:36):
You know the situation and youkind of have to start.
You know backpedaling.
Like you have a work friend,you know let's not talk about
work issues right now.
We know the manager bad, letthem stay bad.
I don't want to deal with it.
But the other thing about havinga side hustle is not just the
money that you get.
I think, speaking as ahardworking Caribbean American
(36:57):
woman, sometimes that sidehustle is a distraction you need
from the full-time job, notjust the money, but just like
it's where I'm putting myenergies, because sometimes at
work you're frustrated, becauseyou know what you're.
The solution that you'reproposing is the right thing.
You know you have.
You want to go.
You is the right thing.
You know you have, you want togo, you want to do all these
(37:18):
things and you just have allthis energy and zest for the
work that you're doing in yournine to five, but you feel that
that's not appreciated.
They're giving this to someoneelse.
Put that energy in a sideproject.
So, the side hustle could be asource of income, but that side
hustle could also be a source ofyour release, of release of
(37:42):
your energies, and also aplayground, you know, a sandbox
for learning skills that you can, you know, take other places.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
No, I was just going to say absolutely.
I remember picking up, you knowcollege courses or free.
I mean there are so many free,open source courses now that
that you could take just tooccupy your mind, because
sometimes you can do walks, youcan do journaling.
I mean whatever you can do tocenter yourself and to find you
(38:21):
peace.
Do that.
I mean exercise is not foreveryone, journaling is not for
everyone, meditating is not foreveryone, but there is something
for you to do.
Find that, find that Wonderful.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
So there are two more points and then we wrap up.
Right, you talked aboutleadership pathways in the
beginning, right, andidentifying leadership pathways.
How do we begin to identifyleadership pathways?
And to be clear, I'm not justsaying we want to get from
(38:56):
manager to supervisor to, youknow, a title level, but you
know leadership could be, youknow it doesn't have to be the
executive level.
I guess that's what I'm saying.
So how do we identify, becausemost of my audience may not be
at the executive level how do webegin to assess what pathways
are available to us in theorganizations we are currently
(39:18):
in?
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, and when I say leadership, I'm not talking just
about the highest levels in theorganization.
There are so many differentways to lead, and when I think
about leadership in its mostpurest form is, how are you
connecting with others on ashared goal and you are
(39:43):
providing some strategicdirection for how to get there
right.
It could be on a project, itcould be, you know, a special
initiative, it could be in ameeting, right.
Sometimes we'll go to meetingsno agenda, no direction, no
(40:05):
outcomes, but how are yougetting people organized and
clear about where we wereheading or what the outcomes you
know might be?
And so you can lead in avariety of different ways, and
some people don't want to leadgroups of people, right.
They want to be leaders intheir own individual,
(40:29):
contributor way, and that'sperfectly okay.
You know as well.
I want to come in, I want to putmy head down and I want to lead
to exceeding expectations and,you know, contributing in the
(40:49):
ways that honor my worth, mybelonging and my brilliance, and
not stepping on people alongthe way to get there.
That's leadership too, right.
And so being clear about whatyou want and the impact that you
want to have, and I would say,one way on determining what that
(41:10):
might be is two things One,letting go of those personally
held scripts on what leadershipis and what leadership is not,
and then, second of all,redefining what success might be
, and it typically isn't justwhat people tell us that it has
(41:32):
been right, and leadership forCaribbean American women may not
be the same thing as it hasbeen for white men, for example,
in these organizations that,quite frankly, were designed for
(41:53):
white men, right, but I holdthat leadership is not about
just climbing, you know, thisproverbial corporate ladder,
that it is about making progress, forward motion, not spending,
(42:15):
you know, time, churning time,churning old problems and
bringing people along with youRight, building bridges and
prioritizing community alongsideprofit, and Caribbean people
(42:35):
know that very well.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
You had said your PhD thesis was can we do it all or
are we just losing time?
And I'm curious about what yourfindings are about that.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
This question that I've been holding since my youth
black women can we do it all ordo we just lose time?
That wasn't my thesis, but itdrove my thesis, and the answer,
based on evidence, is yes, wecan, but not all at the same
time.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Ooh, ooh, I want to hear more.
I want to hear more Not at thesame time, got it.
And what does that mean?
It means we can have a littlebit here and then keep going,
and then maybe we add a littlebit more down the road.
Is that what it looks like?
Speaker 2 (43:29):
The reality is is we don't have unlimited capacity so
we can't live our lives as ifwe do.
This is a piece that goes backto, you know equity and care,
like we can't do it alone.
You know your question.
You know a few questions backaround.
(43:50):
You know if I have a familythat I have to take care of, I
mean, there was a time I had twosmall kids that were dependent
upon me for 100% of everythingthat they needed and I wanted a
promotion and I wanted to keepmy job and we were in a bad
(44:15):
economy.
September 11th just happened.
The stock market had crashed, Iwas working on Wall Street.
I didn't need to be a disruptor, Like if I was going to quit my
job.
I needed to do it responsibly.
Not because I was pointing athow they didn't live up to their
(44:35):
commitments for Black women inthe organization.
Right, I could be upset aboutthem not living up to their
commitments, about Black womenin the organization.
There were processes andchannels at that time through
affinity groups that we had andyou know we could talk about it,
but, and you know, provideinformation, like through
(44:58):
through surveys, that I didn'thave to be like out front, you
know, in someone's face about it, or or or not.
And so that's what I mean.
You know, if they're, you knowannouncing, they're wanting to
do you know layoffs, then it maynot be the time that I raise my
hand and say, hey, I wantpart-time hours when I have a
(45:29):
full-time job, right, right.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
So wisdom discern mean.
This has been a wonderfuldiscussion and I wanted to ask
you any last words you want toimpart to our listeners,
particularly Caribbean Americanwomen, as it comes to leading
boldly and brilliantly intoday's America.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Yeah, I would say I don't want Caribbean American
women to just survive thismoment.
I want them to lead through it.
Right Through my research andmy work, I've seen how bringing
your full self to leadership,leveraging cultural wisdoms and
(46:19):
building from your ancestralstrengths creates transformative
results.
And the future needs leaderswho think differently, who build
bridges and who prioritizescommunity alongside profits.
And yeah, I just truly believethat this moment is challenging
(46:44):
as it is, and we know it'schallenging we're all living
through.
It is preparing CaribbeanAmerican women to lead not just
effectively, buttransformatively.
I've always been an ally and aco-conspirator in this work and
(47:10):
I am committed to like walkingalongside you and supporting you
and creating spaces where thisbold leadership can flourish.
And so you can visit my website, you can follow me on social
media.
My website'skerrymitchellbrowncom, and I'm
on all social medias.
Dr Kerry M Brown.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
Thank you for that.
I mean you've really given us anice summary of how heritage is
a driver for professionalstrength, right, and we have
these things that we were, youknow, if not born with it, had
access to it just by way ofbeing part of the culture, and
it's what most people might needis the confidence to tap into
(47:54):
those things that we alreadyhave and to lead and just get
specific guidance, because Ithink that's where the work
comes in right.
Like we are talking generallybut you know, someone else might
need specific help based onthis public entity, you know, or
a privately held company I meanon that strength alone, you
(48:15):
know or a privately held company.
There, I mean on that strengthalone, you know two different
personalities.
It's a publicly traded versus aprivate company.
So, yeah, all of this is goingto be based on the type of
organization, the industry thatyou're in, the type of work that
you do.
So Dr Carey shared all herinformation.
I will make sure I put that inthe show notes and, dr Carey,
thank you for being on thepodcast and to help, you know,
(48:39):
give word and validate some ofthe experience that I've been
having, but also you've alsohelped me to recognize some of
the things that in the lastcouple of years that I stopped
doing because I'm like I want tohave a peaceful life at work
and so we're not, we're justgoing to cut out some of that.
And you know, there's a thingsometimes we complain too much
(49:00):
and that doesn't help us get outof the frustration at work, and
so we have to find new tools.
And so thank you for remindingme that you know we're not to be
trauma bonding, trauma bonding.
We need to cut that and figureout another way to survive at
(49:20):
work until we can get to a placeto thrive, whether inside or
somewhere else.
But thank you so much for beingon the podcast and, as I love
to say at the end of everyepisode, walk good.
Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode
of Carry On Friends theCaribbean American Experience.
I'm your host, carrie-anne, andtoday we're going to be diving
into a very relevant layeredconversation that's been
building on this podcast sinceits inception, and one that
connects our cultural heritageto how we show up and lead in
(00:27):
the workplace.
Now, if you've been listeningto the podcast for a minute, you
might remember I've mentioned aworkshop called Confidently
Caribbean at Work, and this wasrecorded many, many years ago.
I think this was in 2020.
And before that, we've just hadmany conversations about
working.
Now, one of the things that youknow that is important to me is
(00:51):
our professional strength has alot of our culture and heritage
behind it.
It's a leadership asset or aheritage, and it's a strategic
advantage, right, and so todayI'm glad to be taking the
conversation even further withsomeone who brings a fresh,
outsider, yet very connected andresearched perspective, and
(01:15):
that is Dr Kerry Mitchell Brown,yes, who carries on the podcast
today.
And oh, carrie, and the lastname too.
Imagine that right.
So, even though Dr Brown isn'tof Caribbean heritage herself,
she works with women ofCaribbean heritage and her work
powerfully validates some of thethings that we've been
(01:39):
discussing on the podcast andsomething that I've been working
or developing with theCaribbean Diaspora Experience
Model, and somethingparticularly as heritage, as a
professional strength.
Dr Keri Mitchell-Brown is anationally recognized
organizational theorist,leadership strategist, who's
(02:00):
been working not only withCaribbean women but Black women
across all sectors to developwhat she calls transformative
leadership rooted in culturalintelligence, community and
radical self-care.
Dr Carey, welcome to thepodcast.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I am amazing and I am so glad to be here with you.
I've been following Care OnWith Friends for a little bit
now and I love, love, love, love, love how you created space for
these authentic conversationsabout the Caribbean experience
here in these United States.
(02:40):
I know, and you know, it is sofunny how we both have the same
name, almost, so this connectionmakes me feel like this
conversation was just meant tohappen.
Absolutely, absolutely Carrie,carrie, carrie, and so I didn't
have a middle name formallygrowing up, and so I adopted
(03:05):
Anne as my middle name right,and Brown is my married name, so
I'm Carrie, anne Brown too, asfar as I'm concerned.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
No, this is.
And you fall right in becauseyou know the saying goes.
You know, if you meet a Carrieor a Carrie Anne, there's a
chance that there's a Jamaicanroot somewhere in there and it's
spelled exactly the same andthat is so rare because it's the
male version spelling of Carrie.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
So I'm exactly in the right place at the right time
having this conversation.
And, carrie Ann, you arecorrect, I do not have Caribbean
heritage.
But as a Black girl growing upin the Midwest Omaha Nebraska to
be exact I didn't have a wholelot of exposure to Caribbean
(03:58):
people, much in the Midwestgrowing up.
But all of that changed when Iwent to college.
So, moving from the Midwest tothe East Coast in a city where
there were just a lot oftransient folks it was a
military town and in thatenvironment there were Caribbean
(04:22):
folks, caribbean women becamesome of my closest and strongest
connections and theserelationships they date back 30
plus years and they have reallybeen foundational to who I am
today.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Wonderful, All right.
So let's take a step back andstart with your background and
your profession as it is.
Could you tell us a little bitabout that?
And then we'll get into thework specifically with Caribbean
Women.
You know I did say you're anorganizational theorist, but
what exactly is the work thatyou do and how are you working
(04:59):
with women across the board?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Sure.
So I studied organizations aspart of my doctoral studies,
both in practice and in movingthrough organizations, and was
really interested in how Blackwomen both navigated and not
just survived in organizationsbut actually thrived in
(05:23):
organizations.
And I started doing that withinorganizations through their
organization developmentdepartment, and then, several
years later, started my ownconsultancy.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
What fascinates me about the work that you do.
As I mentioned in the priorworkshops that I did, I had like
this handout because I had tolearn the hard way how to
navigate the workplace, becausemy parents and when I say
parents, I use that term broadly, because in the Caribbean we
are a multi-generational familystructure, so I'm talking my
(06:01):
uncles, my grandparents, youknow the aunties and stuff,
including my parents' parentsand they didn't really teach us
on how to show up or to work andsucceed in American corporate
structure or American corporatelife.
The shock of my life when, in2000, let me back up, let me
(06:26):
make sure I get this clear so upuntil 2010, I was good because
I was working with a generationof Americans, maybe the older
generation, who were veryfocused on let's get this work
done heads down.
And then I think, when theyounger generation came into the
workplace and wanted to be alittle bit more social and
(06:48):
friendly, that was verydifferent from what my Caribbean
upbringing would say, that thisis how you should go to work
and how the older generation,maybe the boomer generation and
the generation before, wereoperating.
And this became very challengingfor me, and so one of the
things that I did was I came upwith this worksheet for people
(07:11):
to try to identify what type oforganization they were in, so I
said all of that.
To get to this thing aboutorganizations, have you figured
out archetypes for differentorganization in your work?
Maybe you don't, but I'm justcurious.
Are organizations in general orbroad are archetypes that can
help you decode certain thingsabout how the organization
(07:35):
functions?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
It's all very different and dependent upon the
organization and, moreimportantly, their culture,
right, and it's all verydifferent, right?
So the person who leads or thegroup who leads the organization
, they set the tone for whatthat organization does.
It's not necessarily or alwaysabout the policies of the
(08:01):
organization, is what people doand how they enact those
policies.
There are always systems thatsignal to us what matters and
what doesn't, and who matters inthose systems and who does not.
Right, and depending upon howfar someone is from the what I
(08:25):
call the denomination line andthose are factors related to all
types of identities that makeup who we are often will
(08:48):
determine, you know, what sideof that equation you are on the
important or not so important.
And so it varies acrossdifferent types of organizations
, different types of governingstructures.
A lot of times, you know,they're in categories around
corporate structures andprogressive structures, and
sometimes there's a whole lot ofoverlap, right?
And it's really about theculture, like, what do the
(09:10):
people who lead theseorganizations espouse about
their values and about theoutcome and how they treat the
people who actually make up theorganization?
And then, what are the internalsystems that manage the people
from the start on?
What attracts them there, howthey treat people while they're
(09:33):
there and the process when theyleave, either voluntarily or as
people are forced out, areforced out.
So it's not as cut and dry, youknow, as it used to be when you
know there were.
It's not as diverse of aworkforce as we have when we
have multiple generations, youknow, within a workforce.
(09:56):
But what I would say aboutorganizations is that they are
perfectly designed to get theoutcomes that they get, which
means that you can change them.
Like organizations are ran byhumans, right, and you can
influence human behavior.
(10:16):
And that's often what's missedin these practices around
organizations is if they're justthese standalone brick and
mortars that just are what theyare, neutral in that they can't
be changed, but they absolutelycan be changed and they can be
changed for good to where theyserve the majority of the
(10:39):
population instead of a selectfew, the majority of the
population instead of a selectfew.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Wonderful.
So organizations there's no oneset way, there's no archetype
for an organization.
It varies based on theleadership, the culture.
The culture is intangible.
It's people, what they do, howthey do it, what they say don't
say all that other good stuffand I think one of the things
that you've said isorganizations are run by people,
and if they're run by people,you can influence human behavior
(11:14):
.
So that's a critical point.
So let's get back to whatbrought you here.
So you've observed Caribbeanwomen in leadership roles, or
you've observed Caribbean womenjust in work, right, and I mean
other than your move fromNebraska to a place where there
(11:37):
was just a lot more people thatyou're interacting with from all
cultures.
What really drove you toexplore leadership when it comes
to Caribbean women?
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Well, I've had the privilege to walk alongside
these incredible leaders asthey've navigated environments
not designed for their successor success for Black women in
general.
I was in these environments aswell and these have been some of
the most powerful groundedrelationships in my life.
So relationships built on loveand care, not just collective
(12:12):
pain or trauma.
And I've had the privilege towitness firsthand their
brilliance, their resilience andinnovative approaches to
leadership, and I would say,first as colleagues and as
co-workers, and then through myconsulting work and the most
meaningful and dear friends inthis journey called Life.
(12:34):
Some of my biggestcollaborators now are Caribbean
women and you know we worktogether on projects, we work
together in leadership.
So in your work, you know wework together on projects, we
work together in leadership.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
So in your work you describe cultural intelligence
as a superpower.
Cultural intelligence could wedefine that?
And then let's talk about howdoes that show up practically at
work no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
You know where they come from, their preferences
around.
You know communication.
You know something morerecently the preferences around
pronouns, preferences aroundcommunication styles and just a
number of things, and often,sometimes, what we don't talk
about is you know preferencesaround or processes around,
(13:59):
assimilation to the dominantculture, right, but what that
means is teaching us to learnabout everyone else where you
spend a lot of time and energy,and often at the expense of
leaving your culture at home, orat least at the door right home
(14:28):
, or at least at the door right.
And what I like to talk about,and where I say to use you know
culture as your superpower, isthis mentioning that it's not
just social skill, right, and soI'll share with you something
around one of my clients andalso a friend, and through my
years of research and close workwith Caribbean American women
(14:53):
leaders, there's something thatI observed that I would say is
pretty remarkable is the waythat they have navigated
multiple worlds Right.
They have navigated multipleworlds right.
So you talk, carrie-anne, aboutthe lessons that you learned
from your uncles and your family, your large generational family
(15:14):
, about how to move and to workboth at home and community and
the workplace here in the US,and I've witnessed these women
to code switch without eventhinking about it.
Right, they move betweencultural spaces with ease, and
(15:35):
that's just not a cultural skill.
That's like a superpower, right.
The ability to engage withfolks not from the Caribbean
culture and the ability toimmediately slip in to a
Caribbean dialect with someonethat you know is from your
(15:57):
island or a neighboring island,and in a way that you all feel
at home with each other right ina meeting or a breakout room,
just to have a culturalconnection and then right back
into the space, right, and so,just thinking about that, in a
global marketplace, who's betterto bridge that than someone
(16:22):
who's been doing it their entirelife?
That than someone who's beendoing it their entire life?
Right, like that's a superpower.
Most people that have lived inone particular environment and
you know if I use myself, forexample like living and growing
up in the Midwest and you knowmoving to the East Coast a
little bit of different, butthat's not changing worlds.
(16:43):
Right, it's changing a littlebit of different, but that's not
changing worlds right, changingmajor, major environments.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
I appreciate the word superpower because a lot of
times when I do just that, evenhere on the podcast, people are
like whoa, and I believe it's asuperpower.
I think there's a place wherepeople feel like but I don't
want to code switch, but I thinkit's not code switching and
there's a future episode comingup.
It's language right, so goinginto or you know our accent or
(17:13):
language.
It is a separate language, sowe don't think of it as being
bilingual, but in a way it is.
You know, and so you know.
It's no different than someonegoes from French to English,
spanish to English and viceversa, and that is why I see it
as a superpower.
But also, I think for a lot ofpeople they don't have the gift
(17:37):
that I've been given to do thispodcast and over 10 years to
appreciate that, but because itcomes so natural, it's an
everyday thing.
You don't think of it as asuperpower, it's just something
that you do.
So, in terms of how CaribbeanAmerican women, or Caribbean
American broadly, can leveragethis superpower in work, how
(17:59):
does this come into play?
Maybe not everyone works in aglobal company, but how can they
use this superpower to level uptheir leadership at work.
How do you see that in play?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Don't hide it, like when we bring our full selves to
work.
I mean, it's like leaving apart of yourself at home, and
when you, you know, break partsof yourself off, then you can't
be your very best, right.
And so don't hide yourCaribbean perspective.
It helps you to see solutionsthat others miss, because people
(18:35):
can make you feel funny, andnot in a good way, about your
accent or the way you wear yourhair or the way that you look
and that pulls you off your gameand you're second guessing
should you do this or should yoube that, or should you hide
this?
And where does that leave spacefor your brilliance to shine
(18:57):
and to show through?
So I say, you know, and one ofmy approaches is to embrace it,
just to embrace it.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
I think it would be, you know, a very big oversight
if I didn't bring up this point.
So, even before our currentpolitical climate, you know,
this idea of being confidentlyCaribbean or whatever I would
say, was like oh wait a minute,because it's not something that,
(19:29):
as you said before, you don'tannounce it at the door.
You know, I can tell you howpeople knew I was Jamaican at
work, is you know?
Someone on my family would callme, and then I went into it and
then someone rolls over on thechair and like, did I hear an
accent?
You know that type of thing.
So much less now where there'sa lot going on and people may
(19:52):
not feel so confident aboutletting people know about their
cultural heritage because thereare assumptions that come with
that, assumptions that come withthat.
So, given the realities of ourcurrent political climate, how
do you still encourage people tolean in with this cultural
(20:14):
intelligence and their identityat work?
Speaker 2 (20:17):
people will make it up right.
So if you don't engage with thethings that people assume and
share the information that youare willing to share, well, then
they'll make up whatever theywant to make up.
So, for example, I got marriedyoung.
(20:39):
I had kids, young People thatlooked at me.
They had no idea how old I wasand there was one part of me
that was like who cares?
And why should you know how oldI am?
But they had that mystery theywere making up stories about,
well, I was a teen mom or I wasall of these things that I was.
(21:04):
Not that that there was anythingwrong with it, but it became a
part of my story that I couldnot control and I wanted people
to be in rooms talking about myimpact, not what they didn't add
to my superpower, that didn'tadd to the growth or the
(21:26):
potential for my trajectorywithin the organization.
That aligned with my goals.
Right, and so that's just whoyou are.
You're not going to be able toerase it, but it also gives you
information on a decision aboutis this the place where you want
to be, is this where you wantto hang your hat, or should you
(21:48):
be working on your exit strategy?
Speaker 1 (21:50):
All wonderful things.
I mean, you are probably aperson I was looking for back in
2012, 2013, when I was justnavigating this solo and it's
like wait a minute 30, when Iwas just navigating this solo
and it's like wait a minute.
The narrative that was createdabout me and there is a
narrative that's created is thatI was mean and unfriendly, and
(22:13):
every time I thought back towhen they made the comment.
I was like but they werewalking past my office and my
face is buried in a computerscreen.
If you want to say hi, come inand say hi, but there was an
expectation that I would say hifirst.
I'm like I didn't even see you,you know, or I'm just really
heads down, focused on my work.
I'm in a zone and it's justlike you're mean and I'm like
(22:36):
but I'm not.
You know.
So people will create thesenarratives and then, before you
(22:56):
know it, you know some of thesepeople.
They have the air of otherpeople And're hearing it from
they can take that to be true.
So what you're saying isabsolutely critical, like part
of this is taking control of thenarrative and your personal
brand at work.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Yeah, and there's something that's magical, too,
around storytelling, likeCaribbean cultures, value, like
oral tradition, and myexperience of Caribbean
storytelling it's great.
It connects people to yourvision Anything more powerful
(23:35):
than someone else telling yourstory and anything more powerful
than any PowerPointpresentation, even if it had AI
enhancements.
Right, and so use yourpredictions, use your
superpowers, use who you are.
It's in your DNA, it's in yourbones and it may not work in
(24:00):
this moment, in this time, butthe more practice you are with
doing it when it actually counts, it's going to matter so much
(24:21):
and you won't even lookorganization and you know
similar.
I'm not here to make friends,I'm here to keep my head down.
She had so many people countingon her, her family back in the
islands and her family here aswell.
I mean, she was a breadwinnerfor many households and I just
(24:47):
kept saying just be your full.
You are so amazing.
Just be your full selfeverywhere you go.
She stopped hiding who she was,her cultural intelligence, and
stopped worrying about the waythat people would perceive but
they were perceiving hersomething very different from
(25:08):
who she was, and the moment shestopped doing that, stopped
worrying about the people whowere intimidated about her full
brilliance.
She helped her company seesolutions that others missed.
She used her understandingabout economics from the work
(25:30):
that she did back home thatcompletely reimagined her
company's approach to emergingmarkets, like they were wanting
to move into a space no one hadeven thought about.
She had been sitting on a goldmine and, as a result, she was
protected.
(25:51):
She was sponsored by executivesin a way that nobody had even
imagined was possible forsomeone with her background, and
so what I mean by this?
They were clear about her value, they were clear about her
impact and, guess what?
Nobody messed with her.
Here on out.
(26:11):
All she had to do was beherself and to show up and cut
out all the noise and all thosefolks who were, you know, just
being aggressive for no reasonbecause they were close to that
power line, who ultimately hadno power.
She were all their supervisors.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
You said so many things in here that I know I
have to unpack.
So that is a wonderful story.
You said perception, but thereare some people who are working
from the fear because of whatwas done to them in a prior
organization when it came totheir cultural identity and
(26:56):
presenting as such at work.
So there is a place wherepeople may have wanted to do
that, but something negativehappened to them.
And so what do you say to thosepeople who have been hurt by
initially being confident andpresenting that?
I'm a proud Caribbean Americanwoman and you know they may have
(27:21):
lost a job, they may have gotdemoted, they had adverse
actions taken against them,whether officially or in
microaggression.
So what would you say to themabout how they show up at work?
I think the key piece, which Idon't know how to unlock it how
(27:42):
much of the organizationalpersonality should you be paying
attention to to determine howmuch you are showing, you know,
leaning forward with yourheritage at work?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Right.
But here's the thing we have todo our research and making the
determinations on.
We have a choice in where wework Right.
We have a choice and you knowwho we give our time to Like.
We are a gift to theseorganizations.
We can choose and sometimes wedon't always choose right.
I know I hadn't always choseright and sometimes I know very
early on and I begin working onmy exit strategy.
I partner with other folks onworking on an exit strategy on
ooh, this feels funny and not ina good way.
(28:41):
How do I get out?
Partner with people like me?
I mean, I help women do that.
Do the analysis on is this theright fit?
We have to be clear about thetypes of companies that we want
to work for.
Sometimes we are settingourselves up to work for our own
(29:02):
companies right, asking thequestions and when we go and
interview for a job we shouldhold very closely.
Not only are they interviewingus, we should be interviewing
them as well.
And if we hear those thingslike, we know what it feels like
in those environments whenwe've been on the other end of
(29:25):
the continuum, where we were nottreated fairly, where we were
not respected, where we were notvalued where we felt like we
didn't belong.
Not all companies, not allorganizations are that way and
we have to hold that.
When we bump into those thatare not that, make the decision,
(29:45):
because life is short.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Yeah, what you're saying, too, goes back to the
other thing that I really wantto make sure that you answer
what happens to people who haveexperienced this hurt and what
happens to people who just don'thave the choice.
Given the economy we're in, Iwant to leave this job, but I
need this job because the jobmarket is crappy and I can't
just leave this job.
So you know, we do understandchoice, but with the market
(30:12):
there isn't much choice and wedo know that there's this level
of intelligence that comes withmy heritage.
But I can't really do thatbased on my environment.
Or maybe they're still at theplace that kind of treated them
funny because they were verybold about their heritage, and
maybe they're still, you know,reluctant because of that.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
So what do you say to , you know, these group of
people who can't leave and thosewho've experienced that, and
those who've experienced that,yes, I've been there too and in
those situations for myself, andthat I will advise others is to
prioritize self-care Right.
And so you know, figure outwhat your boundaries are, figure
(30:56):
out what your non-negotiablesare Right.
Negotiables are right, and somaybe you decide, like, what are
the things that you have to?
You know, leave at the doorwhen you walk in and still be in
a position where you can honoryourself and feel good about
(31:17):
yourself.
Take your PTO time.
You know, utilize your sicktime.
Make sure you are leveragingall of your health care, all
your mental health care.
You know, making sure you'reputting things in place so
you're not burning yourself outand find those moments of joy
(31:40):
and when you do enjoy, the heckout of it because you are going
to need it.
You know, love on your family,embrace your family and work on
an exit strategy.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
I could tell you that's real.
You know, that's the radicalself-care part that I want to
get to, because there was amoment I was feeling very
frustrated at work and I justhad to take a step back.
And you know, most of us, weknow ourselves, we of check
myself.
But I also knew that I couldn'tcontinuously check myself.
(32:20):
I had to get accountability,like I would say, hey, if you
see me doing this, check in andtell me like time out.
You know, if you see mecomplaining too much, you'd be
like girl, it's time to takethat half day PTO or something,
because we can't control theorganization.
We can influence it, but wecan't control it.
(32:41):
I can only control myself andmy actions.
And so I have my PTO, I havesick day and create boundaries
around how I don't want to sayhow I want to spend my day, but
how I want to experience myworkday and what I want to be at
the end of that workday beforeI go home to my family.
(33:02):
And so this idea of radicalself-care is really radical,
because you've pointed out thatCaribbean American women and
Caribbean people, they'rehardworking people.
So this idea of radicalself-care sometimes is like we
just work hard and that's theone mode that we have.
Talk to me about some of thetips that you feel are important
(33:22):
for us to exercise this radicalself-care, especially if we're
in organizations that we can'treally make the move right now.
It's not the right fit and sowe have to maintain until we can
do better.
Or maybe you are a hard workerand you love your organization,
but you still need some radicalself-care because you know, if
(33:43):
you don't, maybe you burn outtoo quickly.
So talk to me about some ofthose things.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
I mean sometimes radical self-care is like I have
to continue to learn, I have tocontinue to go, I have to
continue to grind.
What's their professionaldevelopment policy?
Invest in yourself while you'rethere.
If they have tuitionreimbursement, so maybe you go
to school to get some moreeducation, maybe you get a
(34:09):
certification.
Go hard on how you continue toinvest in yourself without
getting yourself locked in.
Some of those have loopholes.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
If they pay for emails, you know late at night.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Maybe you know you're not taking on, you know,
additional projects.
You're not signing on foradditional work.
Like setting some boundaries,you know, for like for yourself.
Get you an accountability buddyCarrie Ann, that was a of the
things that you said.
Like talking to somebody makingsure that you don't contribute
(35:01):
to the noise.
Like putting some boundariesaround you know, sort of how you
are feeling.
Like don't promobond withanyone else.
Like in the organization.
This manager is so awful this iswhat it is Because that doesn't
help you right.
That pulls you further into thegarbage and you want to, you
know, release yourself.
Work on your exit strategy.
(35:23):
What is your next job If youwant to hustle?
Build yourself a side hustle,set up a side hustle so you will
have some.
You know y'all not going tocontinue to do just to me money.
Um, so when you do need topivot, if you hadn't found
yourself something, you have alittle bit of cushion.
There are a number of thingsthat you can do, but all that's
(35:45):
focused on investing in you anddetermining what your next moves
, you know may be.
Ask to do some shadowing withanother department, with another
team, pick up you know a newskill.
Exploring some more about theorganization you know, or the
industry, or the, or the field,like, if you're going to go hard
(36:08):
, go hard on something that'sgoing to matter for the next
three positions that you'regoing to take up.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
So when you talked about the trauma bonding, I can
tell you that that is a criticalpiece.
Like you know, when you're at acompany or you're in a place
where you're kind of frustrated,everything annoys you and then
you get caught up in the emotionof it and I think you know,
speaking from experience, itmakes it worse.
You know the situation and youkind of have to start.
You know, speaking fromexperience, it makes it worse.
(36:36):
You know the situation and youkind of have to start.
You know backpedaling.
Like you have a work friend,you know let's not talk about
work issues right now.
We know the manager bad, letthem stay bad.
I don't want to deal with it.
But the other thing about havinga side hustle is not just the
money that you get.
I think, speaking as ahardworking Caribbean American
(36:57):
woman, sometimes that sidehustle is a distraction you need
from the full-time job, notjust the money, but just like
it's where I'm putting myenergies, because sometimes at
work you're frustrated, becauseyou know what you're.
The solution that you'reproposing is the right thing.
You know you have.
You want to go.
You is the right thing.
You know you have, you want togo, you want to do all these
(37:18):
things and you just have allthis energy and zest for the
work that you're doing in yournine to five, but you feel that
that's not appreciated.
They're giving this to someoneelse.
Put that energy in a sideproject.
So, the side hustle could be asource of income, but that side
hustle could also be a source ofyour release, of release of
(37:42):
your energies, and also aplayground, you know, a sandbox
for learning skills that you can, you know, take other places.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
No, I was just going to say absolutely.
I remember picking up, you knowcollege courses or free.
I mean there are so many free,open source courses now that
that you could take just tooccupy your mind, because
sometimes you can do walks, youcan do journaling.
I mean whatever you can do tocenter yourself and to find you
(38:21):
peace.
Do that.
I mean exercise is not foreveryone, journaling is not for
everyone, meditating is not foreveryone, but there is something
for you to do.
Find that, find that Wonderful.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
So there are two more points and then we wrap up.
Right, you talked aboutleadership pathways in the
beginning, right, andidentifying leadership pathways.
How do we begin to identifyleadership pathways?
And to be clear, I'm not justsaying we want to get from
(38:56):
manager to supervisor to, youknow, a title level, but you
know leadership could be, youknow it doesn't have to be the
executive level.
I guess that's what I'm saying.
So how do we identify, becausemost of my audience may not be
at the executive level how do webegin to assess what pathways
are available to us in theorganizations we are currently
(39:18):
in?
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, and when I say leadership, I'm not talking just
about the highest levels in theorganization.
There are so many differentways to lead, and when I think
about leadership in its mostpurest form is, how are you
connecting with others on ashared goal and you are
(39:43):
providing some strategicdirection for how to get there
right.
It could be on a project, itcould be, you know, a special
initiative, it could be in ameeting, right.
Sometimes we'll go to meetingsno agenda, no direction, no
(40:05):
outcomes, but how are yougetting people organized and
clear about where we wereheading or what the outcomes you
know might be?
And so you can lead in avariety of different ways, and
some people don't want to leadgroups of people, right.
They want to be leaders intheir own individual,
(40:29):
contributor way, and that'sperfectly okay.
You know as well.
I want to come in, I want to putmy head down and I want to lead
to exceeding expectations and,you know, contributing in the
(40:49):
ways that honor my worth, mybelonging and my brilliance, and
not stepping on people alongthe way to get there.
That's leadership too, right.
And so being clear about whatyou want and the impact that you
want to have, and I would say,one way on determining what that
(41:10):
might be is two things One,letting go of those personally
held scripts on what leadershipis and what leadership is not,
and then, second of all,redefining what success might be
, and it typically isn't justwhat people tell us that it has
(41:32):
been right, and leadership forCaribbean American women may not
be the same thing as it hasbeen for white men, for example,
in these organizations that,quite frankly, were designed for
(41:53):
white men, right, but I holdthat leadership is not about
just climbing, you know, thisproverbial corporate ladder,
that it is about making progress, forward motion, not spending,
(42:15):
you know, time, churning time,churning old problems and
bringing people along with youRight, building bridges and
prioritizing community alongsideprofit, and Caribbean people
(42:35):
know that very well.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
You had said your PhD thesis was can we do it all or
are we just losing time?
And I'm curious about what yourfindings are about that.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
This question that I've been holding since my youth
black women can we do it all ordo we just lose time?
That wasn't my thesis, but itdrove my thesis, and the answer,
based on evidence, is yes, wecan, but not all at the same
time.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
Ooh, ooh, I want to hear more.
I want to hear more Not at thesame time, got it.
And what does that mean?
It means we can have a littlebit here and then keep going,
and then maybe we add a littlebit more down the road.
Is that what it looks like?
Speaker 2 (43:29):
The reality is is we don't have unlimited capacity so
we can't live our lives as ifwe do.
This is a piece that goes backto, you know equity and care,
like we can't do it alone.
You know your question.
You know a few questions backaround.
(43:50):
You know if I have a familythat I have to take care of, I
mean, there was a time I had twosmall kids that were dependent
upon me for 100% of everythingthat they needed and I wanted a
promotion and I wanted to keepmy job and we were in a bad
(44:15):
economy.
September 11th just happened.
The stock market had crashed, Iwas working on Wall Street.
I didn't need to be a disruptor, Like if I was going to quit my
job.
I needed to do it responsibly.
Not because I was pointing athow they didn't live up to their
(44:35):
commitments for Black women inthe organization.
Right, I could be upset aboutthem not living up to their
commitments, about Black womenin the organization.
There were processes andchannels at that time through
affinity groups that we had andyou know we could talk about it,
but, and you know, provideinformation, like through
(44:58):
through surveys, that I didn'thave to be like out front, you
know, in someone's face about it, or or or not.
And so that's what I mean.
You know, if they're, you knowannouncing, they're wanting to
do you know layoffs, then it maynot be the time that I raise my
hand and say, hey, I wantpart-time hours when I have a
(45:29):
full-time job, right, right.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
So wisdom discern mean.
This has been a wonderfuldiscussion and I wanted to ask
you any last words you want toimpart to our listeners,
particularly Caribbean Americanwomen, as it comes to leading
boldly and brilliantly intoday's America.
Speaker 2 (45:55):
Yeah, I would say I don't want Caribbean American
women to just survive thismoment.
I want them to lead through it.
Right Through my research andmy work, I've seen how bringing
your full self to leadership,leveraging cultural wisdoms and
(46:19):
building from your ancestralstrengths creates transformative
results.
And the future needs leaderswho think differently, who build
bridges and who prioritizescommunity alongside profits.
And yeah, I just truly believethat this moment is challenging
(46:44):
as it is, and we know it'schallenging we're all living
through.
It is preparing CaribbeanAmerican women to lead not just
effectively, buttransformatively.
I've always been an ally and aco-conspirator in this work and
(47:10):
I am committed to like walkingalongside you and supporting you
and creating spaces where thisbold leadership can flourish.
And so you can visit my website, you can follow me on social
media.
My website'skerrymitchellbrowncom, and I'm
on all social medias.
Dr Kerry M Brown.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
Thank you for that.
I mean you've really given us anice summary of how heritage is
a driver for professionalstrength, right, and we have
these things that we were, youknow, if not born with it, had
access to it just by way ofbeing part of the culture, and
it's what most people might needis the confidence to tap into
(47:54):
those things that we alreadyhave and to lead and just get
specific guidance, because Ithink that's where the work
comes in right.
Like we are talking generallybut you know, someone else might
need specific help based onthis public entity, you know, or
a privately held company I meanon that strength alone, you
(48:15):
know or a privately held company.
There, I mean on that strengthalone, you know two different
personalities.
It's a publicly traded versus aprivate company.
So, yeah, all of this is goingto be based on the type of
organization, the industry thatyou're in, the type of work that
you do.
So Dr Carey shared all herinformation.
I will make sure I put that inthe show notes and, dr Carey,
thank you for being on thepodcast and to help, you know,
(48:39):
give word and validate some ofthe experience that I've been
having, but also you've alsohelped me to recognize some of
the things that in the lastcouple of years that I stopped
doing because I'm like I want tohave a peaceful life at work
and so we're not, we're justgoing to cut out some of that.
And you know, there's a thingsometimes we complain too much
(49:00):
and that doesn't help us get outof the frustration at work, and
so we have to find new tools.
And so thank you for remindingme that you know we're not to be
trauma bonding, trauma bonding.
We need to cut that and figureout another way to survive at
(49:20):
work until we can get to a placeto thrive, whether inside or
somewhere else.
But thank you so much for beingon the podcast and, as I love
to say at the end of everyepisode, walk good.
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