May 27, 2025 • 54 mins
Jermaine Rowe is a Jamaican-born storyteller, professor, theater maker, and cultural curator. Jermaine shares his incredible journey from Spanish Town, Jamaica to the global stage, blending Caribbean folklore with contemporary storytelling.
This conversation dives deep into the intersections of identity, creativity, mentorship, and the challenges and triumphs of being a multi-hyphenate creative in the diaspora. From the importance of honoring Jamaican culture to building supportive artistic communities, Jermaine brings both vulnerability and wisdom.
What You'll Hear in This Episode:
- Jermaine’s roots in Spanish Town and the early sparks of his creativity
- How church, school, and community shaped his artistic expression
- The journey from performer to professor and playwright
- The power and legacy of Caribbean folklore in modern art
- Why community support and cultural investment matter
- Daily practices that sustain creativity and well-being
- The importance of expanding beyond labels and embracing all of who you are
Follow Jermaine's work, upcoming projects at JermaineRowe.com
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- Donate: If you believe in our mission and want to help amplify Caribbean voices, consider making a donation.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello everyone, Welcome to another episode of
Carry On Friends.
And I am excited.
I mean, when I mean excited, Imean excited, because every time
there's a conversation beforewe actually hit record it just
gives me goosebumps.
And so I'm excited to have thewonderful Jermaine on the
(00:23):
podcast.
Jermaine, welcome.
Give the people that wonderfulvice.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hello everybody, now I feel on the spot.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
I mean I'm excited.
I've been listening andwatching some of your things and
I support it, so to be a smallpart of it is meaningful to me,
so thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Oh, my goodness, Thank you for being here.
So why don't you tell thecommunity of friends a little
bit about who you are, Caribbeancountry you represent and the
work you do, which we'll divedeeper into that work.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Who am I?
The girl named Sugar.
And how can I?
Just quoting a famous poet fromthe culture I'm from, which is
Jamaica?
So yeah, born and raisedJamaica.
But who am I?
I'm a child of God who isnavigating purpose in this world
and trying to do it through mystorytelling art and trying to
find answers and healing.
(01:13):
So, as a theater maker,performer, writer, broadcaster
and this teacher, I see thoseall as tools to fulfill
purpose-driven things that I'mdoing in life.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
You said so many things, I had to write notes
like mud.
You know.
First of all, big up toreferencing the poet.
I mean, he is a poet.
You understand what I'm saying.
But you said theater medicatewhat was the term you use?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Theater maker, so like a theater creative yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Well, matika said theater, theater, medic like a
cure.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
You know what?
Then again, I'm going to use it.
I'm going to take it and use it.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, because theater is cure, it's healing, it's all
of these things, when you getto release that creative energy
Absolutely and then you're ateacher, you know, a broadcaster
.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
So let's start there Of all these titles, which is
the one that you feel is likeJermaine Amidat.
All of it is me, because thoseare tools I think sometimes we
want to put.
You know, we want to make thetools a thing and the tools a
person.
I'm a storyteller, so I thinkthat was the easiest way to put
it.
Sometimes the story comesthrough being a dancer,
Sometimes it comes through beingan opera singer, Sometimes it
(02:40):
comes through being a writer,Sometimes it comes through being
a professor in a classroom, butall of it is coming from this
need.
So one of the things I do, thebig umbrella I do is I create
Afro-folklore, Caribbean magicalrealism in theater.
So I use the folklore, I pullit forward and I do the
structure of Greek mythology andShakespeare with the folklore
of Jamaican culture.
Sometimes that's going torequire me to just be a
(03:02):
researcher and an anthropologist, like Zora Neale Hurston.
Sometimes that's going torequire me to be a professor in
the classroom, teaching thatSometimes I need to dance it in
a concert or sometimes I need towrite a musical, and so I've
expanded, like the Caribbeangeniuses of the Jeffrey Holder
and people who came before that,Professor Rex Nettleford and
people who said you know, we canbe multiple things.
(03:22):
I found out when I moved to NewYork.
It was frustrating for mebecause it was saying narrow
your title, when are you fromand what do you do.
And I think I grew up in aspace where, from high school in
Jamaica, we were allowed toexpand ourselves fully.
You know, say hashtag no limits.
But when you walk into programs, I say but limit yourself for
this program.
You know, and it's like no, thehashtag no limits for me really
(03:44):
says I've been gifted to be allof those things.
So meet me, the person you'venever met before who actually
can do all those things reallywell.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I love that I'm a storyteller.
The verbs are just expressionsof that storytelling gene.
That's the core of who I am.
I love that let's take a stepback about growing up in Jamaica
.
Tell me a little bit aboutwhere in Jamaica you're from.
What was it like growing up?
(04:14):
And then I love to hearpeople's migration story and
what happened when they reachAmerica and adjusting to America
life.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, born and raised in Spanish town, jamaica.
That was core for me because itwas such a powerful time.
My mother and my stepdad werekind of the head of the
household and my sister, mybrother and I were the siblings
and that was very important tome because I grew up in Spanish
town went to a school calledEntom City Primary School and
those are very formative yearswhere I was very encouraged to
(04:46):
find my voice as a singer,writer, performer, a long-time
meadow meadow Like as soon as Iknew myself.
I was performing and creatingand exploring and my mom was
just dope at letting me do that.
I found my voice first inchurch.
I found my talents in church.
And then high school StCatherine High School was
monumental.
Here's one of the secrets to mytalents in church.
And then high school StCatherine High School was
monumental.
(05:06):
Here's one of the secrets to mysuccess.
In high school I fell into awonderful high school and around
me were some gifted people.
Of course, my teacher,professor Anin Wondel, was my
form room teacher, who nowpretty much runs the Music
Institute in Jamaica.
With him there were classmateslike Grace Hamilton, who now is
Spice.
(05:26):
There was a classmate likeCarlene Wall, who is now one of
the world's most famous operasingers.
There were people above me likeDennis Brooks, who's hosting TV
in Jamaica, and Shari Richards,who was doing her amazing
things in Africa right now andacross the globe.
I fell into this reallyfantastic group of talented
students who were justexceptional.
(05:47):
You felt like you found a crew.
So then, from that space, wewere doing everything.
In high school.
I was teased as enough headcook, hand buckle washer,
everything.
Every part knocked me.
Today, if you need somebody fordoing long jump, I'm doing long
jump in sports there.
If you need somebody for commadevotion and read the Bible, I'm
going to be doing it.
Any opportunity that came myway, I said yes to.
(06:07):
So that was my growing up inJamaica.
So that part of myself I thinkthere is something now that the
world called ADHD that Irealized if I was growing up in
this time I would have beenprobably medicated, but it was
my superpower.
So one of my thing was it myteachers would encourage me to.
If you're going to do this, youknow you're going to do so much
(06:32):
things, do them well, followthrough, don't just show up and
know you can't be too busy whenyou're in this space.
You're in this space, so ifyou're in debating club meeting
you're not thinking aboutperforming arts or whatever
you're here, and so it reallytaught me how to
compartmentalize, how to followthrough on goals.
So I did the entire thing inhigh school JCDC, jamaica
Cultural Development Centerevery JCDC I was in, and so my
high school years was veryperforming arts as well as
(06:53):
academic, because by the end ofhigh school I was valedictorian
and then I went on to becomehead boy.
So I was also very grounded inschool politics and government
and how to manage time and howto manage people in terms of
performing arts, president anddoing different things.
But the migration story didn'tget fully there.
The first time I left Jamaicawas in high school to represent
(07:15):
your country.
There's something aboutrepresenting your country at a
young age, like a youthambassador, that changed you how
you saw the world.
So at 17, I was the youngestmember of the debating society
and the first team that wonnational schools debate for St
Catherine High School, and thetrip was a trip to Cuba, and I
remember going to Cuba for thefirst time and the first time I
(07:36):
stepped out of Jamaica to goanywhere and I walk into this
country and they were speakingthis language that you learned
in a class and all of a suddenmy brain was like wait a minute.
You mean, it's not a subject,it's a real life thing.
People actually live and speak.
And so your mind startedexpanding to like what else is
(07:59):
more than what I thought it was,what else is more than the
thing that I was learning inclassroom?
And then, for the following year, national Student Council sent
me to represent Jamaica and Cubaat a festival.
And then that also expanded myworld, because there I was with
a small contingencies ofJamaican, with all students
across Latin America and theCaribbean, and all of us were
(08:22):
these young, youth ambassadors,just like talking about
different cultures.
And I found myself with aBrazilian crew every night
because they would have sambaparties in the courtyard.
I'm like, what is this?
So I was immersing in culturefrom such a young age.
So all of that was happening.
And then my final year of highschool, the government selected
my high school to represent themat Panafest in West Africa and
(08:43):
we went to West Africa betweenSt George's College and St
Catherine Hyde, a mergedperforming arts group.
We all went to West Africa andI remember singing Bob Marley's
A Redemption Song, standing onthe slave castle with all these
Ghanaians and people from WestAfrica there, a sea of them
leading this song and hearingthe entire audience sing
(09:04):
Redemption Song with you.
So those experiences, before Ieven moved to America, formed
such an important part in termsof how I was going to view and
shape my responsibility in theworld.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
All right, so many places I want to start, but I'm
going to start with a place thatmoves me.
When you started telling thestory, the next poet come up in
my head I grew up in a placecalled in some city.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
yes, I know, people come from it like I mean grace
jones coffee, like there's solike there was, there's so much
there's so much yeah, there's somuch in our soil and I think
one of the things I'm excitedabout is and so I take the
things that, the value of thethings that I've learned from
(09:52):
Jamaica to export to the world,which is our culture and our
spaces, because there's a lot ofwealth in our society in terms
of the conversations that youhave cross-generationally.
So there was something aboutwhere I grew up.
We grew up in financial poverty, but experientially wealthy.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Say that one more time again.
Say it, because I can tell youwhere I grew up too.
I grew up in a flunker Moby andlet me tell you we never rich,
but let me tell you experienceand love and community listen I
remember going for a lot of mycharacters.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Now I write honoring people that I that gave me so
much love.
There's an old lady.
You know, when you're young sheprobably was like maybe 50 or
60, but in my mind she wasprobably 100.
You know you're thinkingsomebody else.
She's much older but we didn'tfor the longest time even have a
refrigerator, so she would bethe ice lady.
So go around, miss sylvia myhouse.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
My grandmother was the ice lady I, I tell you like
separate ends of the island samestory, same story.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
So miss sylvia was the ice lady.
And miss sylvia, I can tell yousomething, she adored me so
much and who are just young,bright, little pitney, she now
sell german ice.
You know, because you know, sayby some point in the evening,
german.
And if I come there andsomebody sell the ice, drama in
the house, you know, oh, yousell the ice.
You know it's a german, comeevery evening, forget.
(11:17):
So that was the kind of love itwas like, tangible, it was no,
we take care of each other, thisyoung man, and, and when I
would go to get the ice, mymother would tell me say we want
the ice for cool the drinks inus, no matter still, and coming.
No see, I'm a silver lovesitting on a dock jeremy, and
I'm gonna make the ice.
Jeremy, and I'm by the ice so,my god, because my silver yacht
(11:41):
sitting on a veranda.
She asked me about school, Imean, and I would be actually
fascinated and interested.
There I was, this like nine10-year-old kid sitting down
with someone in their 60scomfortably having full
conversations, and that wasresearch.
I didn't realize she wasgifting me her stories about her
.
She became a child talking tome.
(12:03):
She was not the grandmother ofthe kids in the yard, she wasn't
the mother, she wasn't the wife, she was just a woman talking
to a young child and that's whyshe loved when we come by ice.
And that's how I grew up in aneighborhood of people who that
was what was happening the boyson the streets who were, you
know, did a panic corner withthem ganja and them ting.
(12:24):
And I remember when one of themfrom another neighborhood was
passing by and said I waswalking past him and I said
nothing and the boy said leavehim alone, now, one day I'll go
somewhere.
So there was that protection aswell and care.
So I grew up in that.
So the wealth experientiallywas amazing.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
You know, as you're talking, it resonates with me
because it feels like when, whena lot of people are like, oh, I
can't be around old people, oldpeople gravitate towards me
because I listen, I engage, Iknow how to have a conversation
with them and draw out thestories that they have.
And I think that has to do with, like the way maybe we grew up
(13:06):
in a particular time whereelders were respected, but they
also acknowledged that they wereyoung at one point and weren't
afraid to tell the stories aboutwhen they were young.
The other thing that you saidthat really connected with me
and it's been a thread in a lotof the conversation the role
(13:26):
that church plays in ourcreative expression.
Everyone says, carrie, how youlove you, just go up there, have
a conversation.
I said, well, I never had nochoice, I went to church.
And when you go to church,sunday school have Sunday school
anniversary, you have thewomen's ministry anniversary,
everybody have an anniversaryand you basically had to go up
there and recite either Bibleverses or some other poem.
(13:49):
And church was that place.
You were able to craft thosespeaking skills and have a stage
presence and learn to perform,because back then most of the
Sunday school teachers wereactually school teachers, but
then most of the Sunday schoolteachers were actually school
teachers and they were takingwhat they were probably doing
around festival time.
(14:10):
You said it, jcdc aroundfestival time.
I didn't get to perform, butthis whole aspect of schools
performing and how that createda garden and a wealth of
experience for young people andI'm curious I haven't kept up
with this.
Is that still something thathappens in school?
(14:31):
Is it as rich as it was when wewere growing up?
I don't know.
Maybe you could tell me.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
My sister's a school teacher.
She actually just left Jamaicaand moved to Florida to teach,
but my sister was a teacherthere for years and my sister,
like me, is very creative andshe became the cultural I guess
supervisor liaison person forthe school and they are.
Jcdc is still very, very, veryactive.
They have a wonderful thingcalled Read Across Jamaica Day
(14:58):
where the entire island isreading and I've been invited in
via Zoom the gift of Zoom nowto like read to the kids some of
my scripts that I'm developingRight now.
There's something going on inJamaica that I tap into that I
love All Together Sing, I thinkit's called, where high schools,
just like you have schoolchallenge quiz, you have debate,
national schools debating.
They now have a high schoolsinging program where all these
(15:22):
high schools come together andperform every week based on a
particular lens, like folk thisweek or gospel, and I've
actually collaborated with oneof the judges there, joy Brown,
to help because she's afolkloric artist, she's
brilliant to help score some ofthe music I'm developing,
because, as I'm developing musicas a composer and I'm pulling a
(15:42):
lot from the folklore, I alsoknow the importance of
documenting it and so I want tomake sure sheet musics are
available, and so I'm pullingfrom Jamaica musicians who know
the rhythms better than justtranscribing it, to make sure
it's documented in a way thatanybody can take it up and under
the layers of storytelling thatthe culture requires.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
So talk to me about your mentors.
So for you to be the artist youare, you've had to have mentors
, people who guided you on thisjourney.
Who are some of those mentorsfor you?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Oh my goodness, there are so many.
I think the first time Irecognized what a mentor was was
my first mentor was my highschool teacher, anil Mandal, and
then there was Hugh Dowse, butas I got older they came into
different forms and shape.
When I got to university,that's when the idea of
mentorship sunk in and Iunderstood that it was not just
your teachers, but it could bejust influential people in your
(16:37):
life.
One of the first mentors when Iwent to university that was in
this was Professor RexNuttelford.
I was dancing in high schooland then a movement dance
company found me and grabbed meup for a moment, and then
National Dance of the Company ofJamaica invited me to join NDTC
.
So through that lens I metProfessor Rex Nettleford, and
after that first year of workingwith him he was just fascinated
(16:58):
with the similarities of.
I was such an active academicand student because I was a
journalism major at theUniversity of the West Indies,
but I was also such a strong,powerful dancer, and so he was
really encouraging me to justnavigate the both.
I think when we really clickedwas years afterwards, when I
moved to New York City and someopportunities were coming my way
, literally one year before Ifinished my university degree.
(17:21):
He was very much like Jermaine,finish your degree.
It's important.
He was someone that I couldcall and ask those big questions
to like what do you think Ishould do?
I'm weighing theseopportunities, what do you think
I should do?
So that was such a gift ofhaving someone like Professor
Nethleford, like Caribbeanroyalty, genius royalty.
And, of course, when I was atCarmack, some of the people I
met who were very influentialwere Alma Markian and Faye
(17:43):
Ellington.
Now Faye has become like mysecond mom in so many ways.
We speak a lot and so Faye ofcourse, cultural, wealth, of
stories and icon is someone thatI can call and say hey, look at
this girl, what do you thinkabout this?
Like she would throw me so muchinformation and stories about
how they were developing things.
I've interviewed her sometimeson things too, about things.
(18:05):
And another one that I holddear is Michael Anthony Cuff,
another Jamaican internationalman who is very, very helpful.
But as I moved to the US, ofcourse there's so many others
that I came in contact with.
I think that we talk about morewhen I moved to the American
side of my life or theinternational side of my life,
but those are the ones inJamaica that I still.
Professor Renette Ford passedside of my life, but those are
(18:26):
the ones in jamaica that I stillfor professor renek, for uh
passed away.
But there are some people, thatpeople that I still speak to on
a regular basis, that I can itmove from just career mentorship
stuff and we can talk aboutjust life, like how you manage
your money when you're atrafficker or two things as rts.
How do you figure that?
So like real life things.
I can really call a lot ofthese mentors and people in my
life.
But I have, beyond those bigmentors, a really healthy group
(18:50):
of friends.
I have a really supportivegroup of friends.
When I say friends I mean likepeople I know from primary
school.
My friendships are 20, 30 yearslong, like I have really
healthy, long friendships thatsee you from Jamaica, spanish
town days, walking home everyday from school together because
(19:10):
we broke and we used a taxifare by lunch.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Stop talking.
We're business, Stop talking.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
And those friends are still in my life today and we
can remind each other of ourgrowth, especially when we're
feeling like, oh, it's hard andwe're not getting anywhere.
It's like remember the fulljourney, look at the, remember
the full picture of the entirething you know.
So those people are still in mylife and I'm very grateful for
that.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
I love that you said that, because I've you know I'm
talking to Shari, who you know.
You know you feel frustratedwith the lack of growth.
So you saying that look at thefull picture, not just this
point in time, the full picture,and you know that's.
That's um good perspective.
But when you're in the moment,stewing cause, no, no, go on,
(20:06):
like what are some of the thingsthat you use?
You know, because your friendscould encourage you but talk to
talk to truth.
Sometime they encourage you,but you're still still feel our
way.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Well, um, today I have a lot of tools because one
therapy was very helpful for meso I went to I've been to
therapy quite a few times.
Um, you know, it's likenavigating different things in
life and that the first thingyou taught me how to do was to
kind of see myself and know yourpatterns and gain tools about,
okay, what can you change andwhat can you release?
What's outside of you, what'sfrom within?
That's one tool.
(20:31):
Of course, my divine work isimportant to me, prayer is
important to me, but on aday-to-day basis I start my day
working out and meditating.
That's one of my like morningget up now at this time in the
year because it's cool enoughwhere a morning run is possible.
Where I live, I literally livenext to Central Park, so I can
just go to the park in themorning and I can run the park
(20:54):
and then at some point I stopand I have to take a five-minute
meditation.
And that was gifted to me by myneighbor and my elderly
neighbor who's in her 70s, likemaybe you should meditate more
as a part of your ritual andpractice, and she gave me her
ways of meditating that workedfor her and I added it to my
life and I realized, starting myday that way, giving myself
(21:15):
daily goals so that at the endof the day, I feel like I
accomplished something.
And it could be simple.
It could be just like send outa true job application today If
you're looking for a new jobcool, that's done.
So you feel accomplished evenin the small things.
Um, because the big, the biggerdeadline, because I'm such a
big deadline person, I havethings that's due next march,
(21:39):
that I'm working on residenciesthat's coming up, or, like I
have a project you know projectscoming up much later in the
year.
I will.
You can still get so focused onthat that it's not happening
fast enough because you have towrite a brand for it or you have
to, like, cast it and youhaven't written the script yet.
So the daily goals are helpfulto put into check.
You know what?
Today I said I was going to hitthe gym and get the supermarket
(22:02):
and the laundry done.
Good, those were done today.
Two less things I have to putback to tomorrow.
So those are the things I tried.
I try to do daily goals as apart of my tools and sometimes
rest, just so you know what I'mtired.
I'm tired.
I'm acknowledging that you'retired because I was struggling
(22:22):
with resting as workless andlazy, and some of it is coming
from a brigade.
Oh, you're tired because I wasstruggling with resting as
workless and lazy, and some ofit is coming from a brigade.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Oh, you're not bad I don't know.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
I'm like a man that makes them get you in a bed.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
There's a topic I want to talk about, about that,
you know, like releasing thisidea and I, you know, I even
come up the other day, so it'sso important to bring it up,
like I was talking to somebodybecause I watch so much TV, and
it's like releasing this idea ofresting or, you know, laying
(22:54):
down is worklessness or lack ofambition, when you know, no, it
is caring for my body and therefueling that I need to
actually do the ambitious things.
So I'm glad you said that andit's cultural.
A lot of things are so culturaland second nature.
(23:15):
They're like a talk track.
It's on autopilot in the backof our head and we have to catch
ourselves sometimes for checkto see, you know, wait a minute,
all right back up off of thisand, like you know, so I'm I'm
glad you're sharing this becauseI think part of the creative
process and I think um beingambitious jamaican kids who have
(23:38):
learned heights of great men,reach and get you know, like all
of these you know, we, we, we,we, we know the ambition thing
and we feel like anything lessis a failure or is not good
enough.
And setting small daily goals isa nice incremental step to put
(24:04):
perspective and put goals incheck, Because how we climb
Mount Everest one step at a time, we don't just fly to the top
right.
So I'm really glad you sharedthat.
Now we're not even touching thebulk of what you do, right, so
I want to shift.
You're a professor of acting atLaGuardia Community College.
(24:24):
We're not even talking aboutyour journalism background.
So let's start with thejournalism and then go into.
Yes, teacher.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
So I'm going to chronologically go from Jamaica
into New York because I thinkthat will tie it into.
So I was a journalism major atKaramak and at the end of that
funny enough, because I was alsodancing and doing journalism I
got the gift of talking aboutmentorship.
There are two people in JamaicaI always celebrated with this
moment Lance and Ed Steins fromLakatko, and Clive Thompson, an
(24:57):
amazing dancer and just Jamaicanroyalty, would see me dance in
Jamaica and would gift me bysaying hey, you look like you
have the aptitude forinternational career.
And people kept saying that tome a lot.
And my dear friend CarlWilliams was very helpful and
(25:19):
supportive, encouraging me tothe application process to get
to the Alvin Ailey School ofDance in New York City.
And so in my the summer beforemy final year at UWE, I got a
scholarship to Alvin Ailey.
So I'm like I'm going to trythis dancing for a semester and
see what happens.
By the end of that semester,not only was my heart and
everything fulfilled, I wasgetting an offer for Broadway
already and I was like whoa,whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
And that's when ProfessorMerzendorf, a guy, that said
come back under your degree,finish your degree and then the
(25:41):
world is going to be yours, andthat's what I did.
So when I moved to New York.
I moved to New York to pursuethis career as a dancer and
pause my journalism life.
To go back to that neverhappened, because it just kind
of kept rolling.
So then the cliff note versionof it is by the end of that year
I was in a dance company, danceTheater of Harlem, which is a
famous ballet company, and thenfrom that I was scouted and sent
(26:02):
over to the UK where I did LionKing and this other Broadway
show called Fela, which broughtme back to New York.
The journalism and writing thingcame later on when I went back
to.
In between that I wouldpart-time as a critic, a
BroadwayWorldcom critic but Ireally used my journalism
training primarily as aresearcher.
So as I shifted from being aperformer on stage every night
(26:25):
because I wanted to tell morestories that were just more
exciting to me, I got so manytools.
I decided to create my firstone-man show in New York, which
was very successful.
But the success scared mebecause I realized I didn't have
the tools that I needed toreally do this.
Well, so I went back to do mymaster's in theater making at
Sarah Lawrence College and withthose trainings, that's what
(26:46):
launched me into having accessto being a professor of what I'm
doing, while also developingand creating work, because we're
in a society now where you doneed multiple sources of income
to get to any level of survivaland as an artist, particularly a
lot of the work, a lot ofthings that you do primarily as
a generative artist, somebodywho creates work from scratch.
If you're not getting fundingright away off the top of your
(27:10):
grant, you have to just createfrom.
So what I was doing was theworks were coming before my
budget was ready and when you'rebeing called an artist to
create, you have to write.
You have to write, you have toresearch.
The work is just like talkingto you and that time that it
takes to write and develop andresearch for years was not paid
time, it was passion time.
(27:30):
So to supplement that, therewere days I was working at a gym
and there were days I wasteaching.
There were days where I wasgetting part-time gigs to do
whatever was possible to buildthat time in between because it
takes a lot A workshop.
When I go to Jamaica, I rememberI'm going to call his name
because he was so powerful, tonyWilson.
He was the brainchild andcreator of the company Dance
(27:52):
Theater in Jamaica.
I did that because he justpassed in the week, but he was
someone when I came to New YorkCity who said anytime I come to
Jamaica, come teach class.
I want you to give back tothese kids.
And when I'd go back in withGimelica smiles, that wasn't
much but it was like I wascoming home to teach but also
that was adding to how I wassurviving as an artist in New
(28:12):
York City and I don't thinksometimes people understood how
important it was to not justespecially people who are
building as artists, to not justask them to do free things
because they're going to giveback anyways.
We love giving back, but it'sreally important to compensate
artists who are developing, whoare trying to get to the point,
(28:32):
because most times thedeveloping of the thing, because
it's not yet visible or known,it's not bringing in anything at
all.
A lot of it is passion-basedand primarily because I want to
see Jamaican work at a reallyhigh level.
The investment to get to thereally high level requires
investment like real investment,and I was laughing at people
(28:56):
saying but the Bob Marley moviecome out, did not cast no
jamaican.
I was like, um, did you investin the jamaicans who were trying
to train and get to the levelof a bob marley movie when it
was time for them to come andcast jamaica?
Speaker 1 (29:08):
so all right, now is the dialogue time.
All right, all right, so youtouched on a lot of things, so
fully transparent here, becauseyou may not know that.
Um, all right, 2023.
I was like I'm done with thispodcast, I'm exhausted.
(29:28):
Then I was like you know what?
Nobody not check for, carry onfriends.
You know I met no money, I'mgoing to quit.
And I literally had a plan onhow I was going to.
You know, wind down the show.
Black Cake come out.
And I was bringle because Iread the book.
I was bringle because I feltlike the story, if you read it,
(29:55):
inherently she created afictional Caribbean country, but
it really was based in Jamaicaand I felt like when it was put
on TV, they minimized theJamaican parts once they left
the country.
Right, the characters left thecountry and I was so upset, all
(30:16):
the interviews they did.
And I remember I was atFriendsgiving with my friends
and I took out my phone, startedrecording and all the Jamaican
women were on the table.
I were like what are youwatching?
I said Black Cake.
And I'm like you know, it'sabout Caribbean Jamaican.
They said I lie.
I didn't realize.
I thought it was something else.
That gave me new fire because Ilove watch TV.
(30:39):
I'm like we need to talk aboutthe creative industry for people
who live here and have to workthe system because it is not
easy.
We talked about the Bob MarleyProject.
I've had various people come onthe show, horaine Henry.
So if you go back over thispast year, I've talked a lot
(31:03):
about film media because I lovewatch TV.
I couldn't go anywhere.
German Don't pass again.
Look up down the road.
Can't pass again.
But we are watch TV and wecreated a side project called
Reels and Rhythms where wedecided to use that to talk
about first projects that areCaribbean folks, whether there's
(31:28):
a strong character.
So we would talk about like anAbbott Elementary with the
Honorable Sherri Lee Ralph likechampion on Netflix, which is,
you know, from a lot of peopleout of the UK, just because our
creatives they need theinfrastructure, like black
theater, our black movie has,where they have podcasts that
(31:52):
just does movie reviews or theytalk about that stuff.
And I said we don't haveanything like that.
You know we don't talk aboutthat.
So everything that you'resaying I resonate.
I went into a pitch competition, pitching Breadfruit Media,
which is under where I producethe podcast, and I couldn't get
any funding.
(32:12):
You're pitching and you'repitching and you're pitching One
.
The first question they ask youis where's your community
support?
The first question they ask youis where's your community
support?
Why should I invest in you whenyour community not invest in
you?
Speaker 2 (32:27):
That is, but it's one of the things I've learned from
that.
You've shared some wonderfulthings too.
That also is insightful,because the Black Cake and the
Bob Marley movie for me, I sawthose as every door opening is a
door opening.
No, I agree with you, I agree,and no one project will solve
all the things.
But then, and also, where is acommunity?
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
But it goes back to this is the journalist, the part
of me and the things I write.
I've created the empathy inmyself so that I can move
forward, but the understandingthat colonialism was amazing.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
No, we talk about it all the time because, even as
you said it, you know I willtalk about black cake and give
it credit.
Because they say, if black cakenever happened, I would have
quit the podcast last year andreels and rhythms wouldn't
happen either because of myfrustration with that.
So it has its purpose.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
But what I said, colonna, was amazing.
What I'm saying is it made usnot realize how valuable we are.
It made us ask is the hairgrowing out of my head okay?
It made us ask are the rhythmsof my word valid?
There were friends that I lovein Jamaica, that I still love,
but I understood where they werecoming from.
(33:42):
My first musical that I wrote,the Children from the Blue
Mountain, which is the life ofwho is Jack Mandora, and why did
he say me, no, choose none.
I journey him from a kid whogets the power of Rosetta Stone
from Cromanty to translate allstories.
That's the journey of the show.
And somebody lovingly look atme and say then foreign people
are going to understand that,but a part of it.
(34:04):
They didn't even see the work,they didn't even come to the
theater, they didn't even listento the work.
And it was interestingly enoughwhen a dear friend of mine,
john Zendarsic, heard some ofthe things I was doing.
Elpac was helping me, laguardiaPerforming Arts Center was
helping me, but when LincolnCenter said, huh, we're going to
(34:25):
give you the space in thelibrary, the Performing Arts
Library at Lincoln Center,through John Zendarsic, a
program called Broadway FutureSongbook Series.
That was one of the firstvisibility where people said, oh
, it's like yeah, but to thatpoint it was already valuable.
It's visibility and valuabilityare not the same thing.
I can't talk.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
We're metambarine.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
But a part of it is we, the colonialism.
Part of it says you know, Ilook at the Bob Marley and the
Usain Bolt and the Merlin Atiand so many other people who in
the space in our country, wedidn't recognize how valuable
they were until they stepped outAbsolutely.
So we have to look at thathonestly and say, hey, we have
(35:12):
to change the way because wehave some amazing things
happening, you know, but therehas to be a wonderful
correlation between diasporicthings and what's happening on
the island.
I remember seeing an interviewwith Faye Ellington and Louise
Bennett the late Louise Bennett,honorable Louise Bennett, and
one of the things that I alwayssaid to Faye about it too.
I said to her Auntie Faye, youknow what troubled me about that
(35:34):
interview, when Miss Lou saidJamaica finally gave her a first
class ticket to come back andforth to Jamaica, and by that
point she was in the last, maybefive or so years of her life.
And I say no, miss Lou, should Iget that when she in our
younger part of our lives so shecan go back and research and
develop and create?
(35:54):
That's when she needed that.
How much more works and volumesof work could she have created
if she had access to that levelof research?
So a lot of things I do now.
The last two years I work as agrant panelist for New York
State Creative Arts Councilwhere I look through grants to
help people get funding forthings, primarily because in the
last few years I had to learnhow to write and create my own
(36:16):
grants to get funding.
But here's what happens my owngrants to get funding, but
here's what happens when thereare no grants residences,
development foundations that aredirectly for Caribbean people
developing work at multipledifferent levels then those of
us who are developing work andthis is literally this is not me
admonishing, I'm using this asa way of opening up the
conversation to say, hey, thisis how we build together, this
(36:38):
is how we build Based on thelittle knowledge I know I only
know this much, you only knowyour experience I'm going to
share with you so we can growtogether as a society.
It's an invite into growing theeconomy of the creative
caribbean.
What happens is, if we don'thave that for funding for people
like us to go and like andthose are in the islands to do
it and cross, then we're gonnaI'm gonna have to compete with
(36:59):
the black cake and the islandsto do it and cross, then I'm
going to have to compete withthe Black Cake and the Bob
Marley movie and pitch in thatforum.
And I know this.
One of the things that worksvery, very well here
relationships.
If they don't know my name, ifthey don't know a friend of mine
that said look, this young kidis doing something really
interesting, which is I'mgrateful that's happening.
(37:20):
Now in my career I'm getting alot of advocates who are
non-Caribbean but who go.
Oh my goodness, this is justgood work wherever it comes from
, because my thing is I justwant good work from the
Caribbean.
I want good stories.
I want good and when I wouldsay good, I mean layered,
authentic stories that show usas layered, powerful people or
(37:45):
epics or folklores or magic, themagic that we have to be,
because the Caribbean is a veryunique, interesting experiment
like nowhere else.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Absolutely.
I mean even you coming on.
This podcast is part of myjourney of activation.
You know, being an activist ina way of opening up the platform
for the last year for the creedI've had people who've talked
(38:22):
about.
You know I've had andrew clarkfrom brata.
You know he was one of my firstpodcast guests.
I had him back on earlier thisyear and other people.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
It was a way for me to platform you all more right
and have the conversation andI'm going to pause it to say
right now I appreciate thatbecause one of the things that I
find that we don't do oftenenough is college others' names
in rooms.
Yeah, we have to college othernames in rooms because there is
space for all of us, absolutely,because there's some.
(38:54):
When I go home, I say home, asin Jamaica, there are people who
are doing some really, reallybrilliant work there and they
have been pushing the fightthere and I'm like great, and
some of them we have greatconversation.
I think of Rayon right now,who's doing some great things
and we call each other and wejust talk about how we're doing
things on a different level,what the gift of the world
pausing and having Zoom thingwas.
(39:16):
I was dropping into people'sZoom and hearing some other
readings.
They were dropping into my Zoom.
There are people who are doingthings.
But, as a dear friend of mine,carl Williams, another brilliant
playwright, actor in New YorkCity- I've met Carl.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
I've met Carl.
I know what Carl look like.
I know Carl.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Brilliant, yeah, so Family, family, family family I
agree, I will make sure ithappens.
Family yeah, so it needs acompetition.
Family, family, family, familyI agree, I will make sure it
happens.
Family, family, family.
But one of the things that wetalk about a lot is we don't
know what to do yeah.
Because there are people outthere probably doing what we are
saying isn't happening, and apart of it is me, saying it out
loud is saying my knowledge isthis big.
(39:55):
The smart man knows he knowsnothing and he only knows his
experiences.
The foolish man says he knowseverything.
I don't know everything.
So everyone who's listened tothis podcast come on and say,
actually Jermaine, actuallyKerry, because what has happened
as a part of the colonialsystem is the separation of us
(40:16):
knowing what the other person ishappening.
So I will be next to you on thesame project, I get different
money and I do the same job, youknow.
And I say, Kerry, what you get?
They give me 10,000 and you get15.
And you say, well, I saynothing because, no, I know you
are PME, but why you forgetyou're 15?
But also, if 15 available, butwhy 15 too?
(40:36):
Because why not?
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Why not 15 too?
Because why not?
Yeah, why not?
We're supposed to know eachother, um and and support and
build because the nextgeneration talking about the
elderly now and how one of thegifts that I also have as a
mentor is I had good mentorship,so I have to pass it on and I
do believe the generation beforegive us the baton.
We have to now run Our leg ofthe race aggressively To make
(41:04):
sure we're passing on ahealthier version, so what Miss
Lou did and gifted us.
We're supposed to run itforward so that it's not stuck
at what Miss Lou left in her.
We're not supposed to besupposed to know what it is, but
we're supposed to then move itto the next level so that it's
not when a young person that'scoming up now has to research
Jamaican folklore.
(41:25):
They're not tapping back 60years, they're tapping back five
years.
It's closer to them.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, you know we have to come back and have
another conversation, becausethere's when I tell you there's
just so much, so let us wrap.
And then, mia, I'll haveanother conversation, because
there's when I tell you there'sjust so much, so let us wrap and
then may you can elaborateafter.
Join us for the post show yes,yes, no.
(41:52):
But when you think of again theclarion call for the community
in supporting, because thecommunity wants to see
themselves right, they want tosee themselves.
How do they engage?
And here's why.
So, after going through thesepitch competitions and having
multiple conversations over thecourse of the year,
(42:15):
understanding differentlimitations within the system or
the industry, what's thegrassroots effort for the
community to get involved?
How do one one cocoa drop inour baskets?
Speaker 2 (42:32):
I can tell you how I've been doing it, because one
thing I'm going to definitelysay on this program I have a
wonderful community around meand my audiences my audiences
are loyal.
I have like a really goodfollowing and that took years to
develop what it was was.
I was one creating good workperiod, but the first thing you
have to do is to make sure thework is solid and it's authentic
(42:54):
and it represents well.
I hire my friends and people Icare about that are brilliant.
So one of the things that I dois I hire you in the direction
that you're growing into.
So you used to be a dancer, butyou're going to dance no more.
Why don't you want to direct?
All right, and you're workingon the directing thing.
I'm going to hire you as adirector versus saying, but yeah
, good, dancer, man, come dance.
No, don't hold people to theversion of themselves that they
(43:15):
no longer want to be.
Hire them in a direction thatthey want to grow into, because
one that breeds loyalty, andshow that you're, because I'm
also asking you to step into mebeing a creative director, a
writer, because at one point Iwas a journalist and a dancer.
I want you to see my expansionbecause I want you to also
expand.
Now that is a first community.
The people around you, everyperson know two people.
(43:38):
People hire the team of peoplethat love and trust and respect
what you're doing.
They're going to bring twopeople and two friends.
Every community that I walkinto I'm going to expand that
everybody is welcome to the showbecause most time, like the
other time when I do with mywork, the last show I did well,
one of my last show I did thelegend of the rollingalf, which
looks at the man becoming arolling calf setting on a new
(44:00):
flat bridge.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
What I I cannot wait to leverage with you Anyway.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Yeah, but the thing with that was, you know, the
first thing I do when audiencecome in because it's a folkloric
story about Jamaican cultureyou have to have white room in
that space.
So everybody who walks in thetheater get Jamaican ting and
white rum immediately I'minviting you into a space.
When you leave the show you'regonna tell somebody, say, you
know, we got one nice show andthey bring ting and white rum.
So the way I engage thecommunity is also very tangible
(44:31):
and so I, you know, and I usesocial media a lot like my.
Social media is very much my,the work that I do and I expand
the community that way, um, so,over the years, and it's
something that great people did,like Tyler Perry, I've taken
from his learning curve that hebuilt from building community.
He spoke directly to the peoplethat he wanted to.
So my ego wasn't.
(44:51):
I'm amazing.
They need to come to me.
No, nobody know who you are.
Teaching gifted me thatTeaching at LaGuardia Community
College, which is a veryCaribbean, immigrant-based
community college in New YorkCity.
Those students I would verymuch, and when the gift of the
director of the program and Ialso teach at HB Studio in New
York City too.
They would let me teach the wayI teach in the classroom.
(45:13):
So I would bring a script inthat I'm working on right now
and have the student use it intheir exercises.
I had a teacher use the Legendof the Rolling Calf script for
the students to designconceptual staging for it, and
so those students becameaudiences.
They want to see what ishappening.
So I'm using multiple differentways of building your audience
(45:35):
and then after at some point,they started inviting a friend.
So what's kind of the lastworkshop I did what was really
beautiful.
I remember sitting down.
It was the first time I did ashow that I wasn't on stage with
the cast or in the band playing.
I decided to just once I giveover the music and everything,
to sit in the audience now andjust watch, because I needed to
(45:55):
also release and trust thepeople that I've been, I've
hired to do their work.
I was watching audience memberswho for years been coming to my
show greeting each other oh myGod, how you been, and they only
see each other at my show andseeing them coming to the show
looking forward to seeing theperson that they saw the last
time that was there, theystarted building their own
(46:15):
community Before you know it.
Oh, those two people are nowfriends because they met at the
show.
So that's how I started.
I started hiring people that Itrusted around me, started small
, I realized I didn't have tobuild 5,000 seats, I just needed
10 people.
The first time I did theworkshop because they were
giving me the most valuableasset their time.
(46:36):
The 10 people took time in newyork city tech train after work
come see a reading of a new ideathat's not even fully developed
yet.
Those people you hold on to bythe time you get to broadway
that's gonna sell itself.
But those people.
One of my friends saidsomething powerful to me.
She said mckay, I'm weird formy dress press already.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
You know for the opening.
She have the pattern leathershoes ready ready.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
You want people like that in your corner, who's ready
for your ascension, so thatthat's how I built community and
audience wonderful.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
All right, I have one fun question before I wrap up.
Um, if you were to ever createa project other than what you've
already done, like what is oneproject from Jamaican folklore
or anything that you're like youknow what?
That's something I woulddefinitely love to do.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
So beyond Jamaican folklore, I love folklore from
the Caribbean.
I'm very fascinated right nowwith Sukuya.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
Oh yes.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
And those who don't know Sukuya, go research the
genius of her.
I'm not going to say give you adetailed account, because I'm
still learning how she navigatesit.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
Yes, I have an episode of another show that I
produced that talked about allof these other characters in
Caribbean folklore.
It's a history podcast, so shegave a little clip of it.
I'll send that to you.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
but yeah, I love it.
So I love origin stories Likehow did they become this person?
And?
But then tied into somethingthat's happening contemporarily.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
So I'm thinking of something about Sukia and how it
relates to platonic malefriendship, intimacy and how
that can be judged in the world,because I think one of the
things that men need right nowis just another friend another
big man friend, a brethren, andI find that in the diaspora
we've kind of moved away fromlike having a solid friendship
(48:34):
in our life and I feel that thatis making or the way we have
relationship with differentpeople even more compounded.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
You know there's an interesting pattern because you
know I see those relationshipsin the older generation
specifically.
So my uncles, yep, um, they arefriends with my like, they're
my cousins, but them when I meanso them tight, them tight, you
know, like them, them just likeyou need it.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Sometimes you need, you need advice from somebody
who understands the livedexperience, at least in parallel
to what you could have beenthrough, and you need that
bridging you can call and like,be really vulnerable with yeah,
like if you want drop up, makeyour water drop exactly, and I
was gonna tell that story.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
You know like, when my cousin father died, mom could
just go over there and say, oh,we're not for talk.
I said nothing.
You know we don't sit on our.
You know like the silence inthose because you know, you know
, and when my grandmother passed, you know you know like, and I
see how they operate, but howthey maintain those
(49:43):
relationships I don't think it's.
It's done in a way now becausethat generation and even when I
came here you moved with thecommunity right.
So it's different when somebodycome and go New York and
somebody go Boston or somebodygo there.
So they were moving where thecommunity already existed and
because they were doing thatthey were still able to maintain
(50:06):
those bonds in a way, versusthe way how we migrate now.
It makes it difficult.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Yeah, I was a nomad.
I moved by myself, absolutelyby myself.
I moved by myself fully, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, everybody movedby themselves in a.
But when they got here, theyfound each other and said okay,
yeah, that's it all right,absolutely by myself.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
I moved up by myself fully, yeah, yeah, I mean,
everybody moved by themselves,you know.
But when they got here, theyfound each other and said okay
yeah they say you're there, allright, we'll come over this.
So we'll come live over.
Yeah, yeah, it wasn't my caseyeah, but I I like where you're
going with that, but, um, Idefinitely would like you to
come back on because, again, we,we haven't I mean, it's almost
like, oh, we're not, we're noteven touch all the things I
(50:41):
wanted to talk about, but I doappreciate you coming here.
You have no idea because, um,it's just so affirming for me in
terms of what my interest is,where I want to go, just hearing
your experiences, um, you know,even the, the multiplicity of
your interest is something thatwe need to tell people.
(51:04):
Right, like you can be manythings.
You can explore all thesedifferent things Because they're
a part of who I am.
We're multidimensional.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
We were taught to, though, because in high school
you start English and then yougo to maths, and then they go to
pe, then they go to geography,and, at least for me, that was
training me to say you can learnmultiple subjects, you can
learn.
you're doing spanish and you'redoing integrated science, then
all of it then you're doinghistory, social study, but so
then clothing and textile yeahall of them are like we, we were
(51:39):
taught to, to be able to usemultiple different ways of
problem solving things and andletting our brain expand, um,
and then we end up adults doingone kind of thing all the time
and it's like that kind ofshrinks how you experience
humanity, how your mind candissect and comprehend, and just
(52:01):
like how you have a fully livedexperience.
Because the way I experiencedmyself in dance classes and it's
different the way I experiencedmyself as an actor, the way I
experienced myself as a directoror a professor and all of those
tools made me a better listener, a better friend, a better
human being.
Because I'm experiencing myselfin different contexts in the
(52:23):
same germane, but how indifferent contexts.
If you're walking as aprofessor, how immediately I
walk in as a young black maleprofessor and watch my student
you're the teacher, but yeah,watch my student react in
different ways versus when youwalk into and like it.
It's really interesting how theworld perceives you in
different ways versus when youwalk into it.
It's really interesting how theworld perceives you in
different contexts and it'simportant to kind of become
aware of that in a healthy way.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
Absolutely so.
Why don't you tell the peopleon Wedding Camp find you on the
internet?
Speaker 2 (52:52):
The easiest way is to go to jermainrowecom
J-E-R-M-A-I-N-E-R-O-W-Ecom, andthere you'd find all my social
media.
But for the most part, socialmedia is still Jermaine Rowe.
But JermaineRowecom will haveanything upcoming shows or
events, how to donate 501c3 tothe projects that are being
developed for Jamaican Works andalso sometimes just drop an
(53:13):
encouragement.
Yesterday somebody literallycame on my Facebook and said I
love what you're doing, andthey're actually from Puerto
Rico.
I love what you're doing.
I think it makes me want to tapinto the folklore from my
culture as well.
That in itself is gold.
Sometimes you don't know,Because people come on the page
and look at it and say, oh,that's nice.
But you need people tosometimes comment and share and
like the things, because that ishow our world works today and
(53:37):
we need that.
In a creative industry, Areshare and a post is valuable.
Speaker 1 (53:42):
Absolutely, jermaine.
I appreciate the work thatyou're doing.
I'm honored that you came onthe show to have this
conversation with me and I amexcited to now be in community
with you.
So again, thank you for beingon the podcast and, as I've been
saying for 10 years, after theend of every episode, walk good.
Hello everyone, Welcome to another episode of
Carry On Friends.
And I am excited.
I mean, when I mean excited, Imean excited, because every time
there's a conversation beforewe actually hit record it just
gives me goosebumps.
And so I'm excited to have thewonderful Jermaine on the
(00:23):
podcast.
Jermaine, welcome.
Give the people that wonderfulvice.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hello everybody, now I feel on the spot.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.
I mean I'm excited.
I've been listening andwatching some of your things and
I support it, so to be a smallpart of it is meaningful to me,
so thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Oh, my goodness, Thank you for being here.
So why don't you tell thecommunity of friends a little
bit about who you are, Caribbeancountry you represent and the
work you do, which we'll divedeeper into that work.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Who am I?
The girl named Sugar.
And how can I?
Just quoting a famous poet fromthe culture I'm from, which is
Jamaica?
So yeah, born and raisedJamaica.
But who am I?
I'm a child of God who isnavigating purpose in this world
and trying to do it through mystorytelling art and trying to
find answers and healing.
(01:13):
So, as a theater maker,performer, writer, broadcaster
and this teacher, I see thoseall as tools to fulfill
purpose-driven things that I'mdoing in life.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
You said so many things, I had to write notes
like mud.
You know.
First of all, big up toreferencing the poet.
I mean, he is a poet.
You understand what I'm saying.
But you said theater medicatewhat was the term you use?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Theater maker, so like a theater creative yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Well, matika said theater, theater, medic like a
cure.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
You know what?
Then again, I'm going to use it.
I'm going to take it and use it.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, because theater is cure, it's healing, it's all
of these things, when you getto release that creative energy
Absolutely and then you're ateacher, you know, a broadcaster
.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
So let's start there Of all these titles, which is
the one that you feel is likeJermaine Amidat.
All of it is me, because thoseare tools I think sometimes we
want to put.
You know, we want to make thetools a thing and the tools a
person.
I'm a storyteller, so I thinkthat was the easiest way to put
it.
Sometimes the story comesthrough being a dancer,
Sometimes it comes through beingan opera singer, Sometimes it
(02:40):
comes through being a writer,Sometimes it comes through being
a professor in a classroom, butall of it is coming from this
need.
So one of the things I do, thebig umbrella I do is I create
Afro-folklore, Caribbean magicalrealism in theater.
So I use the folklore, I pullit forward and I do the
structure of Greek mythology andShakespeare with the folklore
of Jamaican culture.
Sometimes that's going torequire me to just be a
(03:02):
researcher and an anthropologist, like Zora Neale Hurston.
Sometimes that's going torequire me to be a professor in
the classroom, teaching thatSometimes I need to dance it in
a concert or sometimes I need towrite a musical, and so I've
expanded, like the Caribbeangeniuses of the Jeffrey Holder
and people who came before that,Professor Rex Nettleford and
people who said you know, we canbe multiple things.
(03:22):
I found out when I moved to NewYork.
It was frustrating for mebecause it was saying narrow
your title, when are you fromand what do you do.
And I think I grew up in aspace where, from high school in
Jamaica, we were allowed toexpand ourselves fully.
You know, say hashtag no limits.
But when you walk into programs, I say but limit yourself for
this program.
You know, and it's like no, thehashtag no limits for me really
(03:44):
says I've been gifted to be allof those things.
So meet me, the person you'venever met before who actually
can do all those things reallywell.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I love that I'm a storyteller.
The verbs are just expressionsof that storytelling gene.
That's the core of who I am.
I love that let's take a stepback about growing up in Jamaica
.
Tell me a little bit aboutwhere in Jamaica you're from.
What was it like growing up?
(04:14):
And then I love to hearpeople's migration story and
what happened when they reachAmerica and adjusting to America
life.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Yeah, born and raised in Spanish town, jamaica.
That was core for me because itwas such a powerful time.
My mother and my stepdad werekind of the head of the
household and my sister, mybrother and I were the siblings
and that was very important tome because I grew up in Spanish
town went to a school calledEntom City Primary School and
those are very formative yearswhere I was very encouraged to
(04:46):
find my voice as a singer,writer, performer, a long-time
meadow meadow Like as soon as Iknew myself.
I was performing and creatingand exploring and my mom was
just dope at letting me do that.
I found my voice first inchurch.
I found my talents in church.
And then high school StCatherine High School was
monumental.
Here's one of the secrets to mytalents in church.
And then high school StCatherine High School was
monumental.
(05:06):
Here's one of the secrets to mysuccess.
In high school I fell into awonderful high school and around
me were some gifted people.
Of course, my teacher,professor Anin Wondel, was my
form room teacher, who nowpretty much runs the Music
Institute in Jamaica.
With him there were classmateslike Grace Hamilton, who now is
Spice.
(05:26):
There was a classmate likeCarlene Wall, who is now one of
the world's most famous operasingers.
There were people above me likeDennis Brooks, who's hosting TV
in Jamaica, and Shari Richards,who was doing her amazing
things in Africa right now andacross the globe.
I fell into this reallyfantastic group of talented
students who were justexceptional.
(05:47):
You felt like you found a crew.
So then, from that space, wewere doing everything.
In high school.
I was teased as enough headcook, hand buckle washer,
everything.
Every part knocked me.
Today, if you need somebody fordoing long jump, I'm doing long
jump in sports there.
If you need somebody for commadevotion and read the Bible, I'm
going to be doing it.
Any opportunity that came myway, I said yes to.
(06:07):
So that was my growing up inJamaica.
So that part of myself I thinkthere is something now that the
world called ADHD that Irealized if I was growing up in
this time I would have beenprobably medicated, but it was
my superpower.
So one of my thing was it myteachers would encourage me to.
If you're going to do this, youknow you're going to do so much
(06:32):
things, do them well, followthrough, don't just show up and
know you can't be too busy whenyou're in this space.
You're in this space, so ifyou're in debating club meeting
you're not thinking aboutperforming arts or whatever
you're here, and so it reallytaught me how to
compartmentalize, how to followthrough on goals.
So I did the entire thing inhigh school JCDC, jamaica
Cultural Development Centerevery JCDC I was in, and so my
high school years was veryperforming arts as well as
(06:53):
academic, because by the end ofhigh school I was valedictorian
and then I went on to becomehead boy.
So I was also very grounded inschool politics and government
and how to manage time and howto manage people in terms of
performing arts, president anddoing different things.
But the migration story didn'tget fully there.
The first time I left Jamaicawas in high school to represent
(07:15):
your country.
There's something aboutrepresenting your country at a
young age, like a youthambassador, that changed you how
you saw the world.
So at 17, I was the youngestmember of the debating society
and the first team that wonnational schools debate for St
Catherine High School, and thetrip was a trip to Cuba, and I
remember going to Cuba for thefirst time and the first time I
(07:36):
stepped out of Jamaica to goanywhere and I walk into this
country and they were speakingthis language that you learned
in a class and all of a suddenmy brain was like wait a minute.
You mean, it's not a subject,it's a real life thing.
People actually live and speak.
And so your mind startedexpanding to like what else is
(07:59):
more than what I thought it was,what else is more than the
thing that I was learning inclassroom?
And then, for the following year, national Student Council sent
me to represent Jamaica and Cubaat a festival.
And then that also expanded myworld, because there I was with
a small contingencies ofJamaican, with all students
across Latin America and theCaribbean, and all of us were
(08:22):
these young, youth ambassadors,just like talking about
different cultures.
And I found myself with aBrazilian crew every night
because they would have sambaparties in the courtyard.
I'm like, what is this?
So I was immersing in culturefrom such a young age.
So all of that was happening.
And then my final year of highschool, the government selected
my high school to represent themat Panafest in West Africa and
(08:43):
we went to West Africa betweenSt George's College and St
Catherine Hyde, a mergedperforming arts group.
We all went to West Africa andI remember singing Bob Marley's
A Redemption Song, standing onthe slave castle with all these
Ghanaians and people from WestAfrica there, a sea of them
leading this song and hearingthe entire audience sing
(09:04):
Redemption Song with you.
So those experiences, before Ieven moved to America, formed
such an important part in termsof how I was going to view and
shape my responsibility in theworld.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
All right, so many places I want to start, but I'm
going to start with a place thatmoves me.
When you started telling thestory, the next poet come up in
my head I grew up in a placecalled in some city.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
yes, I know, people come from it like I mean grace
jones coffee, like there's solike there was, there's so much
there's so much yeah, there's somuch in our soil and I think
one of the things I'm excitedabout is and so I take the
things that, the value of thethings that I've learned from
(09:52):
Jamaica to export to the world,which is our culture and our
spaces, because there's a lot ofwealth in our society in terms
of the conversations that youhave cross-generationally.
So there was something aboutwhere I grew up.
We grew up in financial poverty, but experientially wealthy.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Say that one more time again.
Say it, because I can tell youwhere I grew up too.
I grew up in a flunker Moby andlet me tell you we never rich,
but let me tell you experienceand love and community listen I
remember going for a lot of mycharacters.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Now I write honoring people that I that gave me so
much love.
There's an old lady.
You know, when you're young sheprobably was like maybe 50 or
60, but in my mind she wasprobably 100.
You know you're thinkingsomebody else.
She's much older but we didn'tfor the longest time even have a
refrigerator, so she would bethe ice lady.
So go around, miss sylvia myhouse.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
My grandmother was the ice lady I, I tell you like
separate ends of the island samestory, same story.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
So miss sylvia was the ice lady.
And miss sylvia, I can tell yousomething, she adored me so
much and who are just young,bright, little pitney, she now
sell german ice.
You know, because you know, sayby some point in the evening,
german.
And if I come there andsomebody sell the ice, drama in
the house, you know, oh, yousell the ice.
You know it's a german, comeevery evening, forget.
(11:17):
So that was the kind of love itwas like, tangible, it was no,
we take care of each other, thisyoung man, and, and when I
would go to get the ice, mymother would tell me say we want
the ice for cool the drinks inus, no matter still, and coming.
No see, I'm a silver lovesitting on a dock jeremy, and
I'm gonna make the ice.
Jeremy, and I'm by the ice so,my god, because my silver yacht
(11:41):
sitting on a veranda.
She asked me about school, Imean, and I would be actually
fascinated and interested.
There I was, this like nine10-year-old kid sitting down
with someone in their 60scomfortably having full
conversations, and that wasresearch.
I didn't realize she wasgifting me her stories about her
.
She became a child talking tome.
(12:03):
She was not the grandmother ofthe kids in the yard, she wasn't
the mother, she wasn't the wife, she was just a woman talking
to a young child and that's whyshe loved when we come by ice.
And that's how I grew up in aneighborhood of people who that
was what was happening the boyson the streets who were, you
know, did a panic corner withthem ganja and them ting.
(12:24):
And I remember when one of themfrom another neighborhood was
passing by and said I waswalking past him and I said
nothing and the boy said leavehim alone, now, one day I'll go
somewhere.
So there was that protection aswell and care.
So I grew up in that.
So the wealth experientiallywas amazing.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
You know, as you're talking, it resonates with me
because it feels like when, whena lot of people are like, oh, I
can't be around old people, oldpeople gravitate towards me
because I listen, I engage, Iknow how to have a conversation
with them and draw out thestories that they have.
And I think that has to do with, like the way maybe we grew up
(13:06):
in a particular time whereelders were respected, but they
also acknowledged that they wereyoung at one point and weren't
afraid to tell the stories aboutwhen they were young.
The other thing that you saidthat really connected with me
and it's been a thread in a lotof the conversation the role
(13:26):
that church plays in ourcreative expression.
Everyone says, carrie, how youlove you, just go up there, have
a conversation.
I said, well, I never had nochoice, I went to church.
And when you go to church,sunday school have Sunday school
anniversary, you have thewomen's ministry anniversary,
everybody have an anniversaryand you basically had to go up
there and recite either Bibleverses or some other poem.
(13:49):
And church was that place.
You were able to craft thosespeaking skills and have a stage
presence and learn to perform,because back then most of the
Sunday school teachers wereactually school teachers, but
then most of the Sunday schoolteachers were actually school
teachers and they were takingwhat they were probably doing
around festival time.
(14:10):
You said it, jcdc aroundfestival time.
I didn't get to perform, butthis whole aspect of schools
performing and how that createda garden and a wealth of
experience for young people andI'm curious I haven't kept up
with this.
Is that still something thathappens in school?
(14:31):
Is it as rich as it was when wewere growing up?
I don't know.
Maybe you could tell me.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
My sister's a school teacher.
She actually just left Jamaicaand moved to Florida to teach,
but my sister was a teacherthere for years and my sister,
like me, is very creative andshe became the cultural I guess
supervisor liaison person forthe school and they are.
Jcdc is still very, very, veryactive.
They have a wonderful thingcalled Read Across Jamaica Day
(14:58):
where the entire island isreading and I've been invited in
via Zoom the gift of Zoom nowto like read to the kids some of
my scripts that I'm developingRight now.
There's something going on inJamaica that I tap into that I
love All Together Sing, I thinkit's called, where high schools,
just like you have schoolchallenge quiz, you have debate,
national schools debating.
They now have a high schoolsinging program where all these
(15:22):
high schools come together andperform every week based on a
particular lens, like folk thisweek or gospel, and I've
actually collaborated with oneof the judges there, joy Brown,
to help because she's afolkloric artist, she's
brilliant to help score some ofthe music I'm developing,
because, as I'm developing musicas a composer and I'm pulling a
(15:42):
lot from the folklore, I alsoknow the importance of
documenting it and so I want tomake sure sheet musics are
available, and so I'm pullingfrom Jamaica musicians who know
the rhythms better than justtranscribing it, to make sure
it's documented in a way thatanybody can take it up and under
the layers of storytelling thatthe culture requires.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
So talk to me about your mentors.
So for you to be the artist youare, you've had to have mentors
, people who guided you on thisjourney.
Who are some of those mentorsfor you?
Speaker 2 (16:15):
Oh my goodness, there are so many.
I think the first time Irecognized what a mentor was was
my first mentor was my highschool teacher, anil Mandal, and
then there was Hugh Dowse, butas I got older they came into
different forms and shape.
When I got to university,that's when the idea of
mentorship sunk in and Iunderstood that it was not just
your teachers, but it could bejust influential people in your
(16:37):
life.
One of the first mentors when Iwent to university that was in
this was Professor RexNuttelford.
I was dancing in high schooland then a movement dance
company found me and grabbed meup for a moment, and then
National Dance of the Company ofJamaica invited me to join NDTC
.
So through that lens I metProfessor Rex Nettleford, and
after that first year of workingwith him he was just fascinated
(16:58):
with the similarities of.
I was such an active academicand student because I was a
journalism major at theUniversity of the West Indies,
but I was also such a strong,powerful dancer, and so he was
really encouraging me to justnavigate the both.
I think when we really clickedwas years afterwards, when I
moved to New York City and someopportunities were coming my way
, literally one year before Ifinished my university degree.
(17:21):
He was very much like Jermaine,finish your degree.
It's important.
He was someone that I couldcall and ask those big questions
to like what do you think Ishould do?
I'm weighing theseopportunities, what do you think
I should do?
So that was such a gift ofhaving someone like Professor
Nethleford, like Caribbeanroyalty, genius royalty.
And, of course, when I was atCarmack, some of the people I
met who were very influentialwere Alma Markian and Faye
(17:43):
Ellington.
Now Faye has become like mysecond mom in so many ways.
We speak a lot and so Faye ofcourse, cultural, wealth, of
stories and icon is someone thatI can call and say hey, look at
this girl, what do you thinkabout this?
Like she would throw me so muchinformation and stories about
how they were developing things.
I've interviewed her sometimeson things too, about things.
(18:05):
And another one that I holddear is Michael Anthony Cuff,
another Jamaican internationalman who is very, very helpful.
But as I moved to the US, ofcourse there's so many others
that I came in contact with.
I think that we talk about morewhen I moved to the American
side of my life or theinternational side of my life,
but those are the ones inJamaica that I still.
Professor Renette Ford passedside of my life, but those are
(18:26):
the ones in jamaica that I stillfor professor renek, for uh
passed away.
But there are some people, thatpeople that I still speak to on
a regular basis, that I can itmove from just career mentorship
stuff and we can talk aboutjust life, like how you manage
your money when you're atrafficker or two things as rts.
How do you figure that?
So like real life things.
I can really call a lot ofthese mentors and people in my
life.
But I have, beyond those bigmentors, a really healthy group
(18:50):
of friends.
I have a really supportivegroup of friends.
When I say friends I mean likepeople I know from primary
school.
My friendships are 20, 30 yearslong, like I have really
healthy, long friendships thatsee you from Jamaica, spanish
town days, walking home everyday from school together because
(19:10):
we broke and we used a taxifare by lunch.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Stop talking.
We're business, Stop talking.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
And those friends are still in my life today and we
can remind each other of ourgrowth, especially when we're
feeling like, oh, it's hard andwe're not getting anywhere.
It's like remember the fulljourney, look at the, remember
the full picture of the entirething you know.
So those people are still in mylife and I'm very grateful for
that.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
I love that you said that, because I've you know I'm
talking to Shari, who you know.
You know you feel frustratedwith the lack of growth.
So you saying that look at thefull picture, not just this
point in time, the full picture,and you know that's.
That's um good perspective.
But when you're in the moment,stewing cause, no, no, go on,
(20:06):
like what are some of the thingsthat you use?
You know, because your friendscould encourage you but talk to
talk to truth.
Sometime they encourage you,but you're still still feel our
way.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Well, um, today I have a lot of tools because one
therapy was very helpful for meso I went to I've been to
therapy quite a few times.
Um, you know, it's likenavigating different things in
life and that the first thingyou taught me how to do was to
kind of see myself and know yourpatterns and gain tools about,
okay, what can you change andwhat can you release?
What's outside of you, what'sfrom within?
That's one tool.
(20:31):
Of course, my divine work isimportant to me, prayer is
important to me, but on aday-to-day basis I start my day
working out and meditating.
That's one of my like morningget up now at this time in the
year because it's cool enoughwhere a morning run is possible.
Where I live, I literally livenext to Central Park, so I can
just go to the park in themorning and I can run the park
(20:54):
and then at some point I stopand I have to take a five-minute
meditation.
And that was gifted to me by myneighbor and my elderly
neighbor who's in her 70s, likemaybe you should meditate more
as a part of your ritual andpractice, and she gave me her
ways of meditating that workedfor her and I added it to my
life and I realized, starting myday that way, giving myself
(21:15):
daily goals so that at the endof the day, I feel like I
accomplished something.
And it could be simple.
It could be just like send outa true job application today If
you're looking for a new jobcool, that's done.
So you feel accomplished evenin the small things.
Um, because the big, the biggerdeadline, because I'm such a
big deadline person, I havethings that's due next march,
(21:39):
that I'm working on residenciesthat's coming up, or, like I
have a project you know projectscoming up much later in the
year.
I will.
You can still get so focused onthat that it's not happening
fast enough because you have towrite a brand for it or you have
to, like, cast it and youhaven't written the script yet.
So the daily goals are helpfulto put into check.
You know what?
Today I said I was going to hitthe gym and get the supermarket
(22:02):
and the laundry done.
Good, those were done today.
Two less things I have to putback to tomorrow.
So those are the things I tried.
I try to do daily goals as apart of my tools and sometimes
rest, just so you know what I'mtired.
I'm tired.
I'm acknowledging that you'retired because I was struggling
(22:22):
with resting as workless andlazy, and some of it is coming
from a brigade.
Oh, you're tired because I wasstruggling with resting as
workless and lazy, and some ofit is coming from a brigade.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Oh, you're not bad I don't know.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
I'm like a man that makes them get you in a bed.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
There's a topic I want to talk about, about that,
you know, like releasing thisidea and I, you know, I even
come up the other day, so it'sso important to bring it up,
like I was talking to somebodybecause I watch so much TV, and
it's like releasing this idea ofresting or, you know, laying
(22:54):
down is worklessness or lack ofambition, when you know, no, it
is caring for my body and therefueling that I need to
actually do the ambitious things.
So I'm glad you said that andit's cultural.
A lot of things are so culturaland second nature.
(23:15):
They're like a talk track.
It's on autopilot in the backof our head and we have to catch
ourselves sometimes for checkto see, you know, wait a minute,
all right back up off of thisand, like you know, so I'm I'm
glad you're sharing this becauseI think part of the creative
process and I think um beingambitious jamaican kids who have
(23:38):
learned heights of great men,reach and get you know, like all
of these you know, we, we, we,we, we know the ambition thing
and we feel like anything lessis a failure or is not good
enough.
And setting small daily goals isa nice incremental step to put
(24:04):
perspective and put goals incheck, Because how we climb
Mount Everest one step at a time, we don't just fly to the top
right.
So I'm really glad you sharedthat.
Now we're not even touching thebulk of what you do, right, so
I want to shift.
You're a professor of acting atLaGuardia Community College.
(24:24):
We're not even talking aboutyour journalism background.
So let's start with thejournalism and then go into.
Yes, teacher.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
So I'm going to chronologically go from Jamaica
into New York because I thinkthat will tie it into.
So I was a journalism major atKaramak and at the end of that
funny enough, because I was alsodancing and doing journalism I
got the gift of talking aboutmentorship.
There are two people in JamaicaI always celebrated with this
moment Lance and Ed Steins fromLakatko, and Clive Thompson, an
(24:57):
amazing dancer and just Jamaicanroyalty, would see me dance in
Jamaica and would gift me bysaying hey, you look like you
have the aptitude forinternational career.
And people kept saying that tome a lot.
And my dear friend CarlWilliams was very helpful and
(25:19):
supportive, encouraging me tothe application process to get
to the Alvin Ailey School ofDance in New York City.
And so in my the summer beforemy final year at UWE, I got a
scholarship to Alvin Ailey.
So I'm like I'm going to trythis dancing for a semester and
see what happens.
By the end of that semester,not only was my heart and
everything fulfilled, I wasgetting an offer for Broadway
already and I was like whoa,whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
And that's when ProfessorMerzendorf, a guy, that said
come back under your degree,finish your degree and then the
(25:41):
world is going to be yours, andthat's what I did.
So when I moved to New York.
I moved to New York to pursuethis career as a dancer and
pause my journalism life.
To go back to that neverhappened, because it just kind
of kept rolling.
So then the cliff note versionof it is by the end of that year
I was in a dance company, danceTheater of Harlem, which is a
famous ballet company, and thenfrom that I was scouted and sent
(26:02):
over to the UK where I did LionKing and this other Broadway
show called Fela, which broughtme back to New York.
The journalism and writing thingcame later on when I went back
to.
In between that I wouldpart-time as a critic, a
BroadwayWorldcom critic but Ireally used my journalism
training primarily as aresearcher.
So as I shifted from being aperformer on stage every night
(26:25):
because I wanted to tell morestories that were just more
exciting to me, I got so manytools.
I decided to create my firstone-man show in New York, which
was very successful.
But the success scared mebecause I realized I didn't have
the tools that I needed toreally do this.
Well, so I went back to do mymaster's in theater making at
Sarah Lawrence College and withthose trainings, that's what
(26:46):
launched me into having accessto being a professor of what I'm
doing, while also developingand creating work, because we're
in a society now where you doneed multiple sources of income
to get to any level of survivaland as an artist, particularly a
lot of the work, a lot ofthings that you do primarily as
a generative artist, somebodywho creates work from scratch.
If you're not getting fundingright away off the top of your
(27:10):
grant, you have to just createfrom.
So what I was doing was theworks were coming before my
budget was ready and when you'rebeing called an artist to
create, you have to write.
You have to write, you have toresearch.
The work is just like talkingto you and that time that it
takes to write and develop andresearch for years was not paid
time, it was passion time.
(27:30):
So to supplement that, therewere days I was working at a gym
and there were days I wasteaching.
There were days where I wasgetting part-time gigs to do
whatever was possible to buildthat time in between because it
takes a lot A workshop.
When I go to Jamaica, I rememberI'm going to call his name
because he was so powerful, tonyWilson.
He was the brainchild andcreator of the company Dance
(27:52):
Theater in Jamaica.
I did that because he justpassed in the week, but he was
someone when I came to New YorkCity who said anytime I come to
Jamaica, come teach class.
I want you to give back tothese kids.
And when I'd go back in withGimelica smiles, that wasn't
much but it was like I wascoming home to teach but also
that was adding to how I wassurviving as an artist in New
(28:12):
York City and I don't thinksometimes people understood how
important it was to not justespecially people who are
building as artists, to not justask them to do free things
because they're going to giveback anyways.
We love giving back, but it'sreally important to compensate
artists who are developing, whoare trying to get to the point,
(28:32):
because most times thedeveloping of the thing, because
it's not yet visible or known,it's not bringing in anything at
all.
A lot of it is passion-basedand primarily because I want to
see Jamaican work at a reallyhigh level.
The investment to get to thereally high level requires
investment like real investment,and I was laughing at people
(28:56):
saying but the Bob Marley moviecome out, did not cast no
jamaican.
I was like, um, did you investin the jamaicans who were trying
to train and get to the levelof a bob marley movie when it
was time for them to come andcast jamaica?
Speaker 1 (29:08):
so all right, now is the dialogue time.
All right, all right, so youtouched on a lot of things, so
fully transparent here, becauseyou may not know that.
Um, all right, 2023.
I was like I'm done with thispodcast, I'm exhausted.
(29:28):
Then I was like you know what?
Nobody not check for, carry onfriends.
You know I met no money, I'mgoing to quit.
And I literally had a plan onhow I was going to.
You know, wind down the show.
Black Cake come out.
And I was bringle because Iread the book.
I was bringle because I feltlike the story, if you read it,
(29:55):
inherently she created afictional Caribbean country, but
it really was based in Jamaicaand I felt like when it was put
on TV, they minimized theJamaican parts once they left
the country.
Right, the characters left thecountry and I was so upset, all
(30:16):
the interviews they did.
And I remember I was atFriendsgiving with my friends
and I took out my phone, startedrecording and all the Jamaican
women were on the table.
I were like what are youwatching?
I said Black Cake.
And I'm like you know, it'sabout Caribbean Jamaican.
They said I lie.
I didn't realize.
I thought it was something else.
That gave me new fire because Ilove watch TV.
(30:39):
I'm like we need to talk aboutthe creative industry for people
who live here and have to workthe system because it is not
easy.
We talked about the Bob MarleyProject.
I've had various people come onthe show, horaine Henry.
So if you go back over thispast year, I've talked a lot
(31:03):
about film media because I lovewatch TV.
I couldn't go anywhere.
German Don't pass again.
Look up down the road.
Can't pass again.
But we are watch TV and wecreated a side project called
Reels and Rhythms where wedecided to use that to talk
about first projects that areCaribbean folks, whether there's
(31:28):
a strong character.
So we would talk about like anAbbott Elementary with the
Honorable Sherri Lee Ralph likechampion on Netflix, which is,
you know, from a lot of peopleout of the UK, just because our
creatives they need theinfrastructure, like black
theater, our black movie has,where they have podcasts that
(31:52):
just does movie reviews or theytalk about that stuff.
And I said we don't haveanything like that.
You know we don't talk aboutthat.
So everything that you'resaying I resonate.
I went into a pitch competition, pitching Breadfruit Media,
which is under where I producethe podcast, and I couldn't get
any funding.
(32:12):
You're pitching and you'repitching and you're pitching One
.
The first question they ask youis where's your community
support?
The first question they ask youis where's your community
support?
Why should I invest in you whenyour community not invest in
you?
Speaker 2 (32:27):
That is, but it's one of the things I've learned from
that.
You've shared some wonderfulthings too.
That also is insightful,because the Black Cake and the
Bob Marley movie for me, I sawthose as every door opening is a
door opening.
No, I agree with you, I agree,and no one project will solve
all the things.
But then, and also, where is acommunity?
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
But it goes back to this is the journalist, the part
of me and the things I write.
I've created the empathy inmyself so that I can move
forward, but the understandingthat colonialism was amazing.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
No, we talk about it all the time because, even as
you said it, you know I willtalk about black cake and give
it credit.
Because they say, if black cakenever happened, I would have
quit the podcast last year andreels and rhythms wouldn't
happen either because of myfrustration with that.
So it has its purpose.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
But what I said, colonna, was amazing.
What I'm saying is it made usnot realize how valuable we are.
It made us ask is the hairgrowing out of my head okay?
It made us ask are the rhythmsof my word valid?
There were friends that I lovein Jamaica, that I still love,
but I understood where they werecoming from.
(33:42):
My first musical that I wrote,the Children from the Blue
Mountain, which is the life ofwho is Jack Mandora, and why did
he say me, no, choose none.
I journey him from a kid whogets the power of Rosetta Stone
from Cromanty to translate allstories.
That's the journey of the show.
And somebody lovingly look atme and say then foreign people
are going to understand that,but a part of it.
(34:04):
They didn't even see the work,they didn't even come to the
theater, they didn't even listento the work.
And it was interestingly enoughwhen a dear friend of mine,
john Zendarsic, heard some ofthe things I was doing.
Elpac was helping me, laguardiaPerforming Arts Center was
helping me, but when LincolnCenter said, huh, we're going to
(34:25):
give you the space in thelibrary, the Performing Arts
Library at Lincoln Center,through John Zendarsic, a
program called Broadway FutureSongbook Series.
That was one of the firstvisibility where people said, oh
, it's like yeah, but to thatpoint it was already valuable.
It's visibility and valuabilityare not the same thing.
I can't talk.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
We're metambarine.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
But a part of it is we, the colonialism.
Part of it says you know, Ilook at the Bob Marley and the
Usain Bolt and the Merlin Atiand so many other people who in
the space in our country, wedidn't recognize how valuable
they were until they stepped outAbsolutely.
So we have to look at thathonestly and say, hey, we have
(35:12):
to change the way because wehave some amazing things
happening, you know, but therehas to be a wonderful
correlation between diasporicthings and what's happening on
the island.
I remember seeing an interviewwith Faye Ellington and Louise
Bennett the late Louise Bennett,honorable Louise Bennett, and
one of the things that I alwayssaid to Faye about it too.
I said to her Auntie Faye, youknow what troubled me about that
(35:34):
interview, when Miss Lou saidJamaica finally gave her a first
class ticket to come back andforth to Jamaica, and by that
point she was in the last, maybefive or so years of her life.
And I say no, miss Lou, should Iget that when she in our
younger part of our lives so shecan go back and research and
develop and create?
(35:54):
That's when she needed that.
How much more works and volumesof work could she have created
if she had access to that levelof research?
So a lot of things I do now.
The last two years I work as agrant panelist for New York
State Creative Arts Councilwhere I look through grants to
help people get funding forthings, primarily because in the
last few years I had to learnhow to write and create my own
(36:16):
grants to get funding.
But here's what happens my owngrants to get funding, but
here's what happens when thereare no grants residences,
development foundations that aredirectly for Caribbean people
developing work at multipledifferent levels then those of
us who are developing work andthis is literally this is not me
admonishing, I'm using this asa way of opening up the
conversation to say, hey, thisis how we build together, this
(36:38):
is how we build Based on thelittle knowledge I know I only
know this much, you only knowyour experience I'm going to
share with you so we can growtogether as a society.
It's an invite into growing theeconomy of the creative
caribbean.
What happens is, if we don'thave that for funding for people
like us to go and like andthose are in the islands to do
it and cross, then we're gonnaI'm gonna have to compete with
(36:59):
the black cake and the islandsto do it and cross, then I'm
going to have to compete withthe Black Cake and the Bob
Marley movie and pitch in thatforum.
And I know this.
One of the things that worksvery, very well here
relationships.
If they don't know my name, ifthey don't know a friend of mine
that said look, this young kidis doing something really
interesting, which is I'mgrateful that's happening.
(37:20):
Now in my career I'm getting alot of advocates who are
non-Caribbean but who go.
Oh my goodness, this is justgood work wherever it comes from
, because my thing is I justwant good work from the
Caribbean.
I want good stories.
I want good and when I wouldsay good, I mean layered,
authentic stories that show usas layered, powerful people or
(37:45):
epics or folklores or magic, themagic that we have to be,
because the Caribbean is a veryunique, interesting experiment
like nowhere else.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Absolutely.
I mean even you coming on.
This podcast is part of myjourney of activation.
You know, being an activist ina way of opening up the platform
for the last year for the creedI've had people who've talked
(38:22):
about.
You know I've had andrew clarkfrom brata.
You know he was one of my firstpodcast guests.
I had him back on earlier thisyear and other people.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
It was a way for me to platform you all more right
and have the conversation andI'm going to pause it to say
right now I appreciate thatbecause one of the things that I
find that we don't do oftenenough is college others' names
in rooms.
Yeah, we have to college othernames in rooms because there is
space for all of us, absolutely,because there's some.
(38:54):
When I go home, I say home, asin Jamaica, there are people who
are doing some really, reallybrilliant work there and they
have been pushing the fightthere and I'm like great, and
some of them we have greatconversation.
I think of Rayon right now,who's doing some great things
and we call each other and wejust talk about how we're doing
things on a different level,what the gift of the world
pausing and having Zoom thingwas.
(39:16):
I was dropping into people'sZoom and hearing some other
readings.
They were dropping into my Zoom.
There are people who are doingthings.
But, as a dear friend of mine,carl Williams, another brilliant
playwright, actor in New YorkCity- I've met Carl.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
I've met Carl.
I know what Carl look like.
I know Carl.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Brilliant, yeah, so Family, family, family family I
agree, I will make sure ithappens.
Family yeah, so it needs acompetition.
Family, family, family, familyI agree, I will make sure it
happens.
Family, family, family.
But one of the things that wetalk about a lot is we don't
know what to do yeah.
Because there are people outthere probably doing what we are
saying isn't happening, and apart of it is me, saying it out
loud is saying my knowledge isthis big.
(39:55):
The smart man knows he knowsnothing and he only knows his
experiences.
The foolish man says he knowseverything.
I don't know everything.
So everyone who's listened tothis podcast come on and say,
actually Jermaine, actuallyKerry, because what has happened
as a part of the colonialsystem is the separation of us
(40:16):
knowing what the other person ishappening.
So I will be next to you on thesame project, I get different
money and I do the same job, youknow.
And I say, Kerry, what you get?
They give me 10,000 and you get15.
And you say, well, I saynothing because, no, I know you
are PME, but why you forgetyou're 15?
But also, if 15 available, butwhy 15 too?
(40:36):
Because why not?
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Why not 15 too?
Because why not?
Yeah, why not?
We're supposed to know eachother, um and and support and
build because the nextgeneration talking about the
elderly now and how one of thegifts that I also have as a
mentor is I had good mentorship,so I have to pass it on and I
do believe the generation beforegive us the baton.
We have to now run Our leg ofthe race aggressively To make
(41:04):
sure we're passing on ahealthier version, so what Miss
Lou did and gifted us.
We're supposed to run itforward so that it's not stuck
at what Miss Lou left in her.
We're not supposed to besupposed to know what it is, but
we're supposed to then move itto the next level so that it's
not when a young person that'scoming up now has to research
Jamaican folklore.
(41:25):
They're not tapping back 60years, they're tapping back five
years.
It's closer to them.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
Yeah, you know we have to come back and have
another conversation, becausethere's when I tell you there's
just so much, so let us wrap.
And then, mia, I'll haveanother conversation, because
there's when I tell you there'sjust so much, so let us wrap and
then may you can elaborateafter.
Join us for the post show yes,yes, no.
(41:52):
But when you think of again theclarion call for the community
in supporting, because thecommunity wants to see
themselves right, they want tosee themselves.
How do they engage?
And here's why.
So, after going through thesepitch competitions and having
multiple conversations over thecourse of the year,
(42:15):
understanding differentlimitations within the system or
the industry, what's thegrassroots effort for the
community to get involved?
How do one one cocoa drop inour baskets?
Speaker 2 (42:32):
I can tell you how I've been doing it, because one
thing I'm going to definitelysay on this program I have a
wonderful community around meand my audiences my audiences
are loyal.
I have like a really goodfollowing and that took years to
develop what it was was.
I was one creating good workperiod, but the first thing you
have to do is to make sure thework is solid and it's authentic
(42:54):
and it represents well.
I hire my friends and people Icare about that are brilliant.
So one of the things that I dois I hire you in the direction
that you're growing into.
So you used to be a dancer, butyou're going to dance no more.
Why don't you want to direct?
All right, and you're workingon the directing thing.
I'm going to hire you as adirector versus saying, but yeah
, good, dancer, man, come dance.
No, don't hold people to theversion of themselves that they
(43:15):
no longer want to be.
Hire them in a direction thatthey want to grow into, because
one that breeds loyalty, andshow that you're, because I'm
also asking you to step into mebeing a creative director, a
writer, because at one point Iwas a journalist and a dancer.
I want you to see my expansionbecause I want you to also
expand.
Now that is a first community.
The people around you, everyperson know two people.
(43:38):
People hire the team of peoplethat love and trust and respect
what you're doing.
They're going to bring twopeople and two friends.
Every community that I walkinto I'm going to expand that
everybody is welcome to the showbecause most time, like the
other time when I do with mywork, the last show I did well,
one of my last show I did thelegend of the rollingalf, which
looks at the man becoming arolling calf setting on a new
(44:00):
flat bridge.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
What I I cannot wait to leverage with you Anyway.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Yeah, but the thing with that was, you know, the
first thing I do when audiencecome in because it's a folkloric
story about Jamaican cultureyou have to have white room in
that space.
So everybody who walks in thetheater get Jamaican ting and
white rum immediately I'minviting you into a space.
When you leave the show you'regonna tell somebody, say, you
know, we got one nice show andthey bring ting and white rum.
So the way I engage thecommunity is also very tangible
(44:31):
and so I, you know, and I usesocial media a lot like my.
Social media is very much my,the work that I do and I expand
the community that way, um, so,over the years, and it's
something that great people did,like Tyler Perry, I've taken
from his learning curve that hebuilt from building community.
He spoke directly to the peoplethat he wanted to.
So my ego wasn't.
(44:51):
I'm amazing.
They need to come to me.
No, nobody know who you are.
Teaching gifted me thatTeaching at LaGuardia Community
College, which is a veryCaribbean, immigrant-based
community college in New YorkCity.
Those students I would verymuch, and when the gift of the
director of the program and Ialso teach at HB Studio in New
York City too.
They would let me teach the wayI teach in the classroom.
(45:13):
So I would bring a script inthat I'm working on right now
and have the student use it intheir exercises.
I had a teacher use the Legendof the Rolling Calf script for
the students to designconceptual staging for it, and
so those students becameaudiences.
They want to see what ishappening.
So I'm using multiple differentways of building your audience
(45:35):
and then after at some point,they started inviting a friend.
So what's kind of the lastworkshop I did what was really
beautiful.
I remember sitting down.
It was the first time I did ashow that I wasn't on stage with
the cast or in the band playing.
I decided to just once I giveover the music and everything,
to sit in the audience now andjust watch, because I needed to
(45:55):
also release and trust thepeople that I've been, I've
hired to do their work.
I was watching audience memberswho for years been coming to my
show greeting each other oh myGod, how you been, and they only
see each other at my show andseeing them coming to the show
looking forward to seeing theperson that they saw the last
time that was there, theystarted building their own
(46:15):
community Before you know it.
Oh, those two people are nowfriends because they met at the
show.
So that's how I started.
I started hiring people that Itrusted around me, started small
, I realized I didn't have tobuild 5,000 seats, I just needed
10 people.
The first time I did theworkshop because they were
giving me the most valuableasset their time.
(46:36):
The 10 people took time in newyork city tech train after work
come see a reading of a new ideathat's not even fully developed
yet.
Those people you hold on to bythe time you get to broadway
that's gonna sell itself.
But those people.
One of my friends saidsomething powerful to me.
She said mckay, I'm weird formy dress press already.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
You know for the opening.
She have the pattern leathershoes ready ready.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
You want people like that in your corner, who's ready
for your ascension, so thatthat's how I built community and
audience wonderful.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
All right, I have one fun question before I wrap up.
Um, if you were to ever createa project other than what you've
already done, like what is oneproject from Jamaican folklore
or anything that you're like youknow what?
That's something I woulddefinitely love to do.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
So beyond Jamaican folklore, I love folklore from
the Caribbean.
I'm very fascinated right nowwith Sukuya.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
Oh yes.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
And those who don't know Sukuya, go research the
genius of her.
I'm not going to say give you adetailed account, because I'm
still learning how she navigatesit.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
Yes, I have an episode of another show that I
produced that talked about allof these other characters in
Caribbean folklore.
It's a history podcast, so shegave a little clip of it.
I'll send that to you.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
but yeah, I love it.
So I love origin stories Likehow did they become this person?
And?
But then tied into somethingthat's happening contemporarily.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
So I'm thinking of something about Sukia and how it
relates to platonic malefriendship, intimacy and how
that can be judged in the world,because I think one of the
things that men need right nowis just another friend another
big man friend, a brethren, andI find that in the diaspora
we've kind of moved away fromlike having a solid friendship
(48:34):
in our life and I feel that thatis making or the way we have
relationship with differentpeople even more compounded.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
You know there's an interesting pattern because you
know I see those relationshipsin the older generation
specifically.
So my uncles, yep, um, they arefriends with my like, they're
my cousins, but them when I meanso them tight, them tight, you
know, like them, them just likeyou need it.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
Sometimes you need, you need advice from somebody
who understands the livedexperience, at least in parallel
to what you could have beenthrough, and you need that
bridging you can call and like,be really vulnerable with yeah,
like if you want drop up, makeyour water drop exactly, and I
was gonna tell that story.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
You know like, when my cousin father died, mom could
just go over there and say, oh,we're not for talk.
I said nothing.
You know we don't sit on our.
You know like the silence inthose because you know, you know
, and when my grandmother passed, you know you know like, and I
see how they operate, but howthey maintain those
(49:43):
relationships I don't think it's.
It's done in a way now becausethat generation and even when I
came here you moved with thecommunity right.
So it's different when somebodycome and go New York and
somebody go Boston or somebodygo there.
So they were moving where thecommunity already existed and
because they were doing thatthey were still able to maintain
(50:06):
those bonds in a way, versusthe way how we migrate now.
It makes it difficult.
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Yeah, I was a nomad.
I moved by myself, absolutelyby myself.
I moved by myself fully, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, everybody movedby themselves in a.
But when they got here, theyfound each other and said okay,
yeah, that's it all right,absolutely by myself.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
I moved up by myself fully, yeah, yeah, I mean,
everybody moved by themselves,you know.
But when they got here, theyfound each other and said okay
yeah they say you're there, allright, we'll come over this.
So we'll come live over.
Yeah, yeah, it wasn't my caseyeah, but I I like where you're
going with that, but, um, Idefinitely would like you to
come back on because, again, we,we haven't I mean, it's almost
like, oh, we're not, we're noteven touch all the things I
(50:41):
wanted to talk about, but I doappreciate you coming here.
You have no idea because, um,it's just so affirming for me in
terms of what my interest is,where I want to go, just hearing
your experiences, um, you know,even the, the multiplicity of
your interest is something thatwe need to tell people.
(51:04):
Right, like you can be manythings.
You can explore all thesedifferent things Because they're
a part of who I am.
We're multidimensional.
Speaker 2 (51:14):
We were taught to, though, because in high school
you start English and then yougo to maths, and then they go to
pe, then they go to geography,and, at least for me, that was
training me to say you can learnmultiple subjects, you can
learn.
you're doing spanish and you'redoing integrated science, then
all of it then you're doinghistory, social study, but so
then clothing and textile yeahall of them are like we, we were
(51:39):
taught to, to be able to usemultiple different ways of
problem solving things and andletting our brain expand, um,
and then we end up adults doingone kind of thing all the time
and it's like that kind ofshrinks how you experience
humanity, how your mind candissect and comprehend, and just
(52:01):
like how you have a fully livedexperience.
Because the way I experiencedmyself in dance classes and it's
different the way I experiencedmyself as an actor, the way I
experienced myself as a directoror a professor and all of those
tools made me a better listener, a better friend, a better
human being.
Because I'm experiencing myselfin different contexts in the
(52:23):
same germane, but how indifferent contexts.
If you're walking as aprofessor, how immediately I
walk in as a young black maleprofessor and watch my student
you're the teacher, but yeah,watch my student react in
different ways versus when youwalk into and like it.
It's really interesting how theworld perceives you in
different ways versus when youwalk into it.
It's really interesting how theworld perceives you in
different contexts and it'simportant to kind of become
aware of that in a healthy way.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
Absolutely so.
Why don't you tell the peopleon Wedding Camp find you on the
internet?
Speaker 2 (52:52):
The easiest way is to go to jermainrowecom
J-E-R-M-A-I-N-E-R-O-W-Ecom, andthere you'd find all my social
media.
But for the most part, socialmedia is still Jermaine Rowe.
But JermaineRowecom will haveanything upcoming shows or
events, how to donate 501c3 tothe projects that are being
developed for Jamaican Works andalso sometimes just drop an
(53:13):
encouragement.
Yesterday somebody literallycame on my Facebook and said I
love what you're doing, andthey're actually from Puerto
Rico.
I love what you're doing.
I think it makes me want to tapinto the folklore from my
culture as well.
That in itself is gold.
Sometimes you don't know,Because people come on the page
and look at it and say, oh,that's nice.
But you need people tosometimes comment and share and
like the things, because that ishow our world works today and
(53:37):
we need that.
In a creative industry, Areshare and a post is valuable.
Speaker 1 (53:42):
Absolutely, jermaine.
I appreciate the work thatyou're doing.
I'm honored that you came onthe show to have this
conversation with me and I amexcited to now be in community
with you.
So again, thank you for beingon the podcast and, as I've been
saying for 10 years, after theend of every episode, walk good.
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