August 5, 2025 • 66 mins
What happens when your language becomes a battleground for identity, education, and cultural sovereignty? When Oneil Madden, a Jamaican linguist who speaks five languages, joined me for this conversation, we uncovered the profound connections between language, heritage, and self-perception that shape the Caribbean experience both at home and abroad.
Oneil shares his journey to becoming a lecturer at the University of Technology, where his passion for language education has fueled groundbreaking research. The revelation that really struck me was his experience of being told by a French supervisor that he was bilingual—something he hadn't fully internalized until his twenties despite growing up speaking both Jamaican Creole and English. This moment mirrors so many of our experiences as Caribbean people, where our native language is often dismissed as merely "bad English" rather than recognized as the sophisticated linguistic system it truly is.
We dive deep into the challenges facing Jamaican Creole today—from standardization efforts by the Jamaican Language Unit to the fascinating paradox that while most Jamaicans speak Patois fluently, many struggle to read it in its codified form. The translation of the New Testament into Jamaican Creole serves as a powerful example of both the progress made and the distance still to travel.
As artificial intelligence increasingly enters the language landscape, we confront complicated questions about who "owns" Jamaican Patois. Is it something to gatekeep, or should we celebrate its growing global influence? .
Language shapes how we see ourselves and how the world sees us. If you've ever felt your accent was a weakness rather than a strength, or if you're curious about the future of Caribbean languages in a digital age, this conversation will resonate deeply.
Resources Mentioned:
- Jamaican Language Unit at UWI Mona
- Jamaican New Testament (via Bible app)
- UN Decade of Indigenous Languages (2022–2032)
- BBC article on Patois in Toronto
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of
Carry On Friends, the CaribbeanAmerican experience, and I am
very excited I know you hear mesay this all the time but I'm
very excited to have O'Neal onthe podcast.
Hello O'Neal, how are you doing?
Or should I say bonjour, orshould I say bonsoir?
We're not Haitian, but you knowall of the things.
How are you?
I say we're not Haitian, butyou know all of the things.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
How are you?
Bonjour, buenas tardes.
I'm very well.
Thank you and hello everyonewho is hearing my voice and you
know everybody who will listenfrom across the world.
You know my fans and friends,colleagues from Jamaica, the
Caribbean, from France, theFrench West Indies as well, and
(00:46):
from Latin America.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yes, Greetings, wonderful, all right.
So we give the people anintroduction to all the
languages you can speak.
So why don't you tell thecommunity of friends a little
bit more about you Caribbeancountry you represent, and the
work that you do?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
All right.
So I am Jamaican I mustemphasize that Very proud of my
roots and you know my heritage.
I am a lecturer, linguist andresearcher currently at the
Language Teaching and ResearchCenter that is attached to the
Faculty of Education and LiberalStudies at the University of
(01:24):
Technology, jamaica.
I teach academic literacy andFrench and I have worked at
other institutions, both locallyand internationally, where I
teach Spanish-related courses,linguistics, culture.
I have a research background intechnology, in language
(01:50):
teaching and learning.
I look at artificialintelligence.
I look at gamification as well.
I look at Jamaican language,jamaican Creole.
I'm not a Creole linguist perse, but I take interest in
Creole as a less commonly taughtlanguage.
(02:10):
Outside of academia, I am aseasoned columnist with the
Jamaica Observer.
I have a space in the paper ona Friday where I talk about
national issues, current affairs, social issues, and I touch on
things happening internationallyas well.
I also work as a freelancejournalist with the Jamaican
(02:33):
Observer.
Outside of being a columnist, Iam an author as well and I love
traveling.
So I always say, even thoughI'm a linguist, on the applied
science or applied linguist, butI see myself more as an
intercultural specialist becauseI really, like you know, going
(02:57):
around, visiting differentcultures, countries, meeting
different people, learning abouttheir backgrounds and what
makes them unique.
So, yeah, those are some of thethings that define what I do.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
The list is long and I'm not surprised because you're
a Jamaican.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I am excited and so, for the audience, everything
that you said is kind ofgrounding us in the conversation
we want to have today.
Well, I've been wanting to haveand it's about language, and so
, before we get into thatconversation, talk to me about
why you chose to focus in thisarea linguistics.
(03:41):
You know all of that.
Talk to me about it in thisarea.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Linguistics, you know all of that.
Talk to me about it.
All right, I knew from.
I was exposed to Spanish firstin first form in high school,
and in second form I was exposedto French because at that time
where I did my secondaryeducation, depending on your
average in first form, you werestreamed in second form and the
(04:08):
stream groups got theopportunity to do French.
And so I just felt like andthis is something that we looked
at in research and I've testedit, I've been lecturing for 10
years that when you have ateacher who is passionate and
enthusiastic about what they do,they kind of have that
influence on you.
(04:29):
So I feel like those teacherswho I had in my foundation years
contributed to me pursuinglanguages, and it's another way
of seeing the world, and so Ienjoy what I do.
(04:50):
And the funny thing is, when Igot to upper school, in fifth
form, my clearest pathway wasthrough the language.
So my top grades were inEnglish, french and Spanish.
So I knew that that was theroad I was going to take.
What field Would it be?
(05:11):
You know, in education?
Would it be in internationalrelations?
I eventually decided to go toTeachers College and I met some
wonderful lecturers there aswell.
And in that space, in my thirdyear, we had the opportunity to
go to France.
So well, I majored in French, Iminored in Spanish.
(05:32):
So, based on your major, youwould either go to France or
Panama at the time.
So, interestingly, my Spanishwas much better than my French
and I thought that I wanted tobring my French to my Spanish
level.
But I ended up, you know just,you know, french just escalated
(05:52):
like that To the point where Iwent back to France after my
undergrad.
I spent seven years.
So I'm fully fluent, nativelevel, in French and I am
wrapping up my doctoraldissertation and I'm writing it
in French yes, are you them saybright.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
But um side note, I want to ask you which part of
Jamaica you come from.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
I am from the cool, cool hills of Tower Hill in
Mavis Bank.
That's where the coffee factoryis.
Yes, so that's in East Rural StAndrew I'm from.
I'm a country boy.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
I'm a proud country boy, but you know, listen, we
country people unite, becausewhenever I tell anybody I come
from Jamaica, I say where youcome from oh country, I say it's
a city.
Calm your nerves, but I'm proudof the Tigers still, but lovely,
all right.
So I wanted to have thisconversation.
Two inciting events.
(06:56):
So I'm in a WhatsApp group andthe group.
Someone in the group shared thelink that there is a government
, the New York City housingwebsite had the ability to
translate what was on thewebsite to Patois, and so there
was this conversation, how itfeel unprofessional and a bunch
of stuff right, and to mepersonally, what I find is
(07:25):
challenging is the conversationaround colonialism, what is
proper and all of that.
I don't have a problem with theofficial city website, with the
Patois, in terms ofunprofessional, in terms of
unprofessional, keriannepersonally feels some type of
(07:45):
way.
So the AI I use the languagebecause, as I've, one of the
superpowers that I have andpeople are always amazed is when
I speak so nicely and then wejust jump in at the patu and
they're like, oh my God, what isthat?
Mr Norman is a super poetistand so what I feel very attached
to is particularly, languagehas become my identity.
(08:06):
So when I left good, good,mount Alvernia and come America
to live right and then went backto Jamaica, my cousin and I
said my God, you talk, what'sthat way you live here Right,
because in the diaspora,language becomes a central part
of identity.
So you hold on to it.
Becomes a central part ofidentity, so you hold on to it,
(08:27):
like when I met my I shouldn'tsay when I met my uncles.
When I moved here my uncles hadbeen in America donkey years,
just donkey years, and then, asLouise Bennett said, no little
twang never, in there, right.
And so now I'm at the age wherethey were when I first came and
I'm like my God I have sometwang, but you know if I'm at
the age where they were when Ifirst came and I'm like my God,
I have some twang, but you knowif I'm in community.
(08:48):
So part of my concern is whatdoes it mean when AI and all
these other people have accessto language, whereas before and
I want to read something fromMiss Lou's Aunt Rochi said when
we can't talk and we can't gofast and we can't go slow and we
don't want nobody to understandwhat we're saying, all of these
(09:10):
things, right, and so I wantedto.
So those are the two incitingthings.
And then, third, my challengewith this push to translate
everything into Patois is thatand this is where we're going to
probably be a little boundarypushing that and this is where
we're going to probably be alittle boundary pushing.
(09:36):
We are fluent in Patois, but wemay be illiterate in reading and
writing it, because we knowthat there's an appreciation of
it.
There's no codification of theproper way to spell a word,
right.
There's variations of how somepeople want to say gyal versus
gyal, or gwe or whatever it isright, and later down in the
after show I'll read from MissAnt Rochise, miss Lou, which I
(09:56):
have right here.
It is difficult to read patwaand read it in a way that's
fluent, and I think that's alsopart of the adjustment in the
identity.
Like you are fluent in it butyou may be illiterate because
you can't read it as well as youspeak it or write it.
So I know, as a journalistyou're going to say my girl, you
(10:17):
just gave a very long backstory.
Cut Me need for answer but Ijust wanted to set it up.
Caught my need for answer but Ijust wanted to set it up, you
know.
So what are your thoughts aboutlanguages and identity and the
properness of Patois beingtranslated and all?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
of that.
I think you've said quite someinteresting things, and the
question that you just asked isvery personal and very relevant
in the Jamaican context and alsoin the diaspora.
Language is identity and, assomebody who is multilingual, I
can tell you that Whenever Ispeak French, I feel very French
(11:00):
.
I wasn't born French, I wasborn in a Francophone country,
but I feel very French.
I wasn't born French, I wasborn in a Francophone country,
but I feel very French.
And when I speak in English orJamaican, I feel very Jamaican.
And language is a way of life,it's a way of thinking, and
which is why, when we get intotranslations, for example and
(11:22):
given that it's within my scope,I know very well some ideas are
very difficult to translatebecause they are from a cultural
perspective and some are nottranslatable at all.
And so your final language isidentity, and which is why
sometimes and identity andheritage and solidarity, which
(11:43):
is why I think for you, when yougo into a foreign country and
you meet up with people fromwhere you're from, that kind of
solidarity comes in.
It's like you can't have a fullconversation just in standard
English.
Some amount of Potwa must drivein the conversation.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Listen my friend in Jamaica.
He says anytime a Jamaican comeon the show you cannot contain
the patwa.
It just bursts right, even onthe road.
You're just like.
We went to Hershey Park andthere's the young lady was
navigating us to the shuttle bus, to the parking lot and me just
hear she say a word and me knowshe's a Jamaican and me, just
(12:26):
stop, talk to her.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yes, so it identifies who you are, so to some extent,
we do have an accent asJamaican, so you're able to
identify that as well, and so itis important for us.
You know, we're living in atime, especially the decade 2022
(12:48):
to 2032 the united nations hasdeclared that decade as the
decade of indigenous languages,so they're calling for us to
promote indigenous languages,you languages that are
endangered, and so it's acritical point that we're at
(13:09):
regarding language transitionand Jamaican patois.
And I remember when one time Iwas in France, I was with
another Jamaican and we werethere because sometimes you want
to say some things you know andnobody understands what you're
saying, and so I remember we'recode switching a lot and this
(13:33):
young lady she just kept lookingat us Afterwards.
We asked her if she understood.
She said a few things.
It happened that she was fromIda Martinique Guadeloupe, so
she was able either martinicaguadalupe, so she was said she
was able to follow certainthings, and then we were like we
have to be very careful, youknow, because you just don't
know who may be understandingwhat you're saying, and so it
(13:55):
gives you that.
You know, just in thatsuperpower, when you're in
certain spaces, you want tocommunicate certain things, you
want to send certain messages.
It's just like you can't givecertain jokes in standard
english because they will nothave the effect that you want
them to have.
You can't express certainthings in standard english.
(14:16):
When you draw for a jamaicanreference, the message goes home
and which is why, as you know,as as a linguist, I am big on.
You know, I know it's a touchydebate, but I am one of those
people who believe that childrenshould be educated in their
modern language.
(14:36):
So if we're going to gobilingual roads, let's go that
road.
Teach them in english, teachthem in jamaican.
Cruel because, um, intelligenceis not a matter of whether you
speak standard english or not.
Intelligence is a matter ofcomprehension and children need
to comprehend, they need tounderstand what is being
(14:57):
transmitted onto them and,because of language perception
over the many decades and years,it's really stifled a lot of
Jamaicans.
I remember when I was doing amaster's thesis in France, I was
looking at teaching English asa second language in Jamaica and
it did not dawn on me untilthat point I was in my early 20s
(15:24):
that I was actually bilingualas an adult.
It was my supervisor, who wasFrench, who said to us, which
was with my Jamaican friend.
Well, you guys are bilingualand that shifted everything,
everything, everything for me.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Listen.
The minute I came to Americaand the reception to the way
that I spoke, compared to how Iwas groomed to speak in high
school in Jamaica, I recognizedthat, oh, you know, I have this
other language and even the waythat I can express that, you
(16:12):
know, and that's part of why alot of times my friends, they
will say, carrie, where you getthese words from?
I go back and use words thatthey won't, you know, like most
commonly won't use.
No, they are words that mygrandmother and older people
would use because I recognizethat they are in danger of being
(16:36):
lost.
So I use it so sometimes.
And then I love the Proverbs,so, like I was telling my friend
we were talking and I said,little pig have big ears, and
she's like what I'm going to say, the pig need to listen, you
know.
So it's like even in that way,you know, just using language
(17:00):
and I am, this entire show, youknow, is an evolution of how I
even embrace that language.
Because in the beginning I waslike welcome, you know, and I
was all you know tone andtwanging.
And now I'm like hey, everybody, wagwan, and you know.
And the other story that incitedme to start the podcast.
I was interviewing a young manfor a position and one of the
(17:23):
questions some standard questionyour weakness and your strength
and he said his weakness washis accent.
And I went through theinterview and at the end, as I
was walking him through the door, I was like your accent is not
a weakness at all.
And now I mean, look how muchmoney them up here, hollywood
actors, we try to get withaccent and we have it, you know.
So I love, I love that.
(17:46):
I want to double clicking tosomething what you said 2022 to
2032, the decade of indigenouslanguage.
Why make I mean everyone?
This is a language show, sowe're going to be switching
because we are.
I'm bilingual and he'strilingual, or at least.
I know five language.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Right.
So why did the UN designate thedecade of languages that we
have will just cut into, theywill just disappear.
And so, in order to strengthenthat and to preserve language,
the UN says let us, you know,pilot some projects, let us do
everything that we can topromote, let's look at language
(18:50):
policies in schools, incommunities, how we can preserve
these languages.
And also to again to the pointwhere there are still many
countries where people areilliterate because they are not
being taught in the languagethat they know, and that's
(19:11):
troubling for me.
Now, I speak differentlanguages and I know the English
language very well, but, again,a lot of people identify or,
you know, they look at thecorrelation between intelligence
and speaking the Englishlanguage.
And I'm like, for me that's nota marker of being bright.
(19:35):
So, which is why I you knowthat, the young man that you
interviewed it is one of thethings that people struggle with
, that they've always beenspoken to about their accent, so
they feel like it's a barrier,that it's a weakness when listen
, that's how you speak and Iremember, you know, learning
different languages and becauseI'm native level in French,
(19:56):
sometimes I'm asked a questionhave you ever, you know,
attempted to speak like theFrench.
I'm like listen, I am notFrench, so I'm not going to put
on an accent to sound French.
If that's your, you know, ifthat's your objective, fine, I
will not say don't, but you'regoing to put on an accent to
sound friend.
If that's your, you know that'syour objective, fine, I will
not say don't, but you're goingto hear that I am not a native
(20:16):
speaker.
So it's interesting because I,as I said, travel a lot and I
remember one time I was comingback to jamaica on a flight
beside this guy I think he washe's, he's from before, neither
from france or belgium, and cameto mobay.
We ended up coming into kingstontogether.
So we went to the bus stationto get the bus to come into
(20:40):
kingston and he asked mesomething in english, but I'm
very much french, so the frenchjust came out.
He, I responded to him inFrench and he's like what?
So we started having aconversation about French, and
then he's like he's trying tounderstand where I was from,
because he thought, of course, Iwas Francophone, but I have a
(21:03):
slight accent, so I'm not French.
And then I was like I'mJamaican and he's like that's
not possible.
He was like I'm Jamaican andhe's like that's not possible.
He was like I'm very muchJamaican, I started out in
Hawaii, in France, and blah,blah, blah.
But I'm not trying to hide myidentity, so I'm not going to
imitate an accent, because it iswho I am.
(21:26):
So people need to embrace.
People need to embrace theiraccent, their languages, and
it's interesting that you know.
Our things become extinct, ourlanguages become extinct because
we give precedent to thedominant languages that are used
(21:50):
across the world Before youknow it.
I don't classify JamaicanCreole as an endangered language
because a lot of us speak it.
I don't see it going anywhere.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
You thought that was my next question.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
It's not going anywhere.
It's not going anywhere, butyou know, because I look at
minority languages across theboard, even though I don't
specialize in a specialize inminority languages, but it's one
of the realities that you know,some of these languages are
becoming next state and I havecolleagues across the world.
You know, I was at a conferencerecently working with
(22:24):
colleagues who teach Malteselanguage, who teach the one in
Ireland.
What's that called?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Gaelic Right, irish and Gaelic right.
So I have colleagues who areworking with those minority
languages to promote thoselanguages so that you know they
can have bilingual education aswell, because that's how we're
going to, you know, have thelanguages continue and not die
off, because so much culture andso much history and literature
(22:56):
is attached to a language.
So it's not just grammar andvocabulary but again, identity,
culture, so much that you canlearn about generations when you
pass on native languages.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
I want to come back to this idea of literacy and I
mean, you're going to talk aboutthe Jamaican context, but I
have kids who are born inAmerica and I remember a cousin.
She's technically my mother'scousin, but you know we are
Jamaicans.
No second, third, a cousin.
She's technically my mother'scousin, but you know we are
Jamaicans.
No, second, third, a cousin,right.
And I said to I was talking tomy kids and she said I
(23:37):
understand what you're saying.
I said I don't know what otherlanguage you're talking to us,
right To the point that whenthey're ready they start to make
fun Like this is mommy, whenshe wanted to do something Me,
say for potato.
You know like they understandit.
Now you know that they're notnative speakers because you hear
(23:57):
that American twang with it,but they understand it.
And I think you know, throughoutthe time of doing the show, a
lot of second generationJamaican Americans.
They often find people tellthem that they're not Jamaican
because you can hear, eventhough they can speak and they
(24:18):
know the patua, you still hearthat American twang in there and
they kind of feel insecureabout it.
So when it comes to and I guessthis plays into literacy,
because there's this aspect of Idon't know what's the right
word like this self-awarenessand insecurity about how you're
(24:40):
coming off, whether you writingit, that's one and maybe what
the movement is.
But comprehension, I don'tnecessarily think at least, is
the bigger issue, because mostpeople comprehend it as like how
(25:01):
do you read and begin to writeand communicate maybe more
effectively in your nativelanguage, if that makes sense?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
right, um, and you're doing a good thing.
It I was teased.
I'm not working in francebecause I worked in foreign
languages unit, and so I've hadstudents who they are coming
from a bilingual or amultilingual background in terms
of their parents and theirgenerations, but their parents
(25:30):
never communicated to them inthe language of the parents.
So imagine you live in france,you're learning english, but
your parents are from spain anditaly and you're you have to
learn italian and spanish inschool because your parents
never spoke those languages athome.
(25:50):
I'm like I think your parentswho do that they're robbing
their children of a veryimportant asset that they need
to have.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yes, and both can be true.
What I learned, particularlyfrom Haitian guests, and I
remember this woman who'sJamaican like her.
She wasn't on the show, but Ihad a conversation with her.
She wasn't allowed to talkPatois, and I think a lot of
(26:21):
that had to do with theirimmigration experience.
When they came here, they didnot want their children to have
to deal with any of thediscrimination or bullying that
happened.
So some of that is because offear, and you know the culture
at the time when they migrated.
(26:41):
You know it was cool toicans,but before that the prior
generation had, they were tryingto blend in, and that was part
of the reason why that a lot ofpeople just did not teach their
kids the language or forbadethem.
(27:03):
They could communicate in thehouse, but forbade them from
speaking it.
So I wanted to share that.
Those are some of the storiesthat I've heard, but not today
yeah, not today, not today nottoday yes, it's a very important
asset to have.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
And just to tie that with research, since I'm also a
researcher, researcher researchhas shown that you know, people
who are bilingual,multilingualilingual they tend
to have fewer effects ofdementia when they get old.
So because there's a linguisticgymnastic that is taking place,
(27:42):
so your brain is active andthat continues until you get old
.
So there are cognitive andhealth benefits and intellectual
benefits too, when you aremultilingual.
Now back to the matter.
You know self-awareness,perception, literacy.
I remember in undergrad andfunny enough, this happened
(28:09):
earlier on today I went to seeone of my students by the food
court and this other studentcame by buying something.
So my student and I weretalking and then he was like
where are you from?
You speak with an accent, oh,you're Jamaican.
And I get this question quiteoften for some strange reason.
(28:31):
I remember in undergrad I washosting a radio program and I
was communicating Jamaican fromtime to time and then my friends
would be WhatsApping me and belike man, stick to English.
And I'm like guys, I'm Jamaicanas well, allow me to express
myself using the Jamaicanlanguage.
And so some people feel like Idon't understand it and master
(28:54):
it.
But I can tell you that I knowmore Creole than you because I
studied these things, you know.
So it's a matter of acceptingthat language comes with accents
and variations.
We're not all going to speakthe same way and we have to
really move away from the notionof, you know, being this bad
(29:16):
patois or this bad English, sowe have to appreciate diversity
and variations.
The point about I think youprobably refer to, you know
non-standardization of theJamaican language.
Now the Jamaican language hasgone through decades of
codification and currently themost popular model that is used
(29:43):
is called the Cassidy model andthat the Jamaican language unit
at the University of Western DesMoines campus in Kingston.
They have done a lot of work on, you know, having a standard
for the Jamaican language.
Is it well known?
(30:03):
No, and that's one of theconversations I keep having with
my colleagues that listen.
We need to get it in theteachers' colleges Because if
the teachers are the ones whoare going to interact with the
students the most, we need tohave our teachers at least do an
(30:23):
elective course in Jamaicanlanguage so that they can pass
it on when they go into thesystem.
So I remember having thisconversation very recently,
because if we're moving, I don'tknow at what point, but I know
that at least one politicalparty is suggesting that they
(30:43):
would officialize JamaicanCreole were they to form the
next government.
But officialization comes witha lot of work.
Jamaican Creole, were they toform the next government.
But officialization comes witha lot of work.
It comes with a lot of fundingbecause all the documentation
will have to be transcribedsigns, road sign, all of these
(31:04):
things.
But there is a model that isused and it is the model that
has been used to translate theNew Testament into Jamaican
Creole.
So for me it's not a fairconversation.
I know that more awarenessneeds to take place, but I often
(31:25):
hear it and you know people arelike oh, you're culpables for
officialization when you knowthere's no standard for Creole.
I was like there is a standardagain that is not widely known
but it needs to be known.
And because Patois has been anoral language for the most part,
where we spell it based on ourphonemic awareness, our own
(31:50):
phonetics, and just see thosevariations and people like,
which is why it's hard to read,especially in the codified
version, it's hard to read.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Let me tell you that Jamaican New Testament.
I was reading it and I said Iwould never spell this word this
way, but you know it was.
The good thing about it which Ilove about the Bible app
personally is that you can playand follow along with it, and so
(32:21):
that makes the comprehension orthe reading of it much better
and get familiar with the wordsand get familiar with the words.
But when we saw this, everybodyin the family because we were
sitting down and you know I wastelling my niece and my
brother-in-law that yo, yes,there's a New Testament I told
my coworker about it and then wehit play and it says I can't
(32:41):
remember 1 John.
I forget the old name, johnright, and the dramatization in
(33:03):
the Bible app, and just likereading along, everybody was
like.
You know, this is a version ofus in that space.
We're recognizing ourlimitations in reading it
because the way it was presentedin the app is not how, like you
said, we would phonetically,you know, write this word Like I
can't even tell you how muchword.
(33:24):
We say what.
Yeah, yeah I would if I wouldnever spell it this way if I was
spelling it.
So I think that comes back towhat I think a lot of people are
struggling with.
It's like how do I begin toread and understand this?
And of course, everything isnot well-funded to the point
(33:45):
where, oh, if I want tounderstand it, I can just follow
along and listen to the Bibleapp.
I feel like the next questionbecomes where do we Jamaicans
not just Jamaicans of Jamaica,but Jamaicans abroad where do we
(34:08):
go from here?
Because you know, like you said, it's been an oral language.
My grandmother passed away sowe would never be able to teach
her this new version, you know.
So where do we go from here?
And I know that the languageJamaican language.
We don't have time to worryabout that for a while.
(34:29):
But how do we get to a placewhere I want my kids to now be
fully bilingual so they can readand write and understand what's
going on?
Where do we go from here?
And then I want to switch tothe AI thing, Right?
Speaker 2 (34:42):
So the pilot programs have been done by the Jamaican
Language Unit and otherfaculties at the UA, loan for
sure, in primary schools, andthe results have shown that, you
know, students were able todistinguish between Jamaican and
(35:05):
English language.
So, again, funding is needed,capacity building is needed,
we're going to need moreteachers being familiarized with
the system that UWE has beenproposing.
But it also takes, you know, ashift in focus, because one of
(35:25):
the things that we struggle withas a people is like why we are
pushed part of, if we're noteven mouthful, english.
You always get that, you alwaysget that and part of it is not
going anywhere.
Because English is theinternational language of
communication and business andall the world.
And only to realize that youknow English is a very difficult
(35:50):
language.
It's a language that you know.
It has some weird rules, someweird patterns and, just like
any other language, it has gonethrough its processes to become
what it is today.
But it's sometimes difficult toargue with people who are
non-linguists or non-languageenthusiasts, because they're not
(36:14):
seeing it from our perspectivethat the linguists I mean my
colleagues they've done the work, they have done the work, but
there's not much appreciationfor the work because it's always
been an oral language andthey've tried to put a system in
place to codify.
(36:35):
You don't think it sounds likehow you would spell it, so you
can't accept it like there's somany things in english language
that we just work with.
Why is?
Why do we say preach, preached,but teach, taught or like one
sheep, two sheep, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Or read and read the same spelling.
You know, it's just.
You know a lot of things and II remember a few jobs ago I
worked with some colleagueswhere English wasn't their
native language and they said itwas just the most difficult
language to learn because, asyou said, pronunciation is
different.
Like I live in America and Ican tell where someone comes
(37:22):
from based on the way they speakand how they pronounce certain
words.
You know, go on social media.
Everybody says, not plantain,is plantain, right.
And I said, okay, let's use thesame structure.
Do you say mountain?
No, you say mountain, and youdon't say curtain, you say
curtain.
So you know why do we useplantain.
(37:44):
You know if you're using thator fountain, right.
So I think I love and appreciatelanguage even before I moved
here.
Like we all had to learn.
You know, in my generation, andI think even my mother's
generation when she went to highschool, miss Lou's poems right
and just, and I think maybethat's what I got growing up,
(38:09):
that I grew up in a time whenMiss Lou was still active and
visible and very, you know, avery staunch supporter or
representative of the languageand the beautiful way that she
would speak and perform in ourlanguage.
And I had and we all looked upto her right as an example, and
(38:31):
I think maybe that is notsomething that, even though
everybody upon social media wemaybe not have someone who feels
the same way about the languagethat she did and leave a mark
on a generation of people.
And then, and maybe also it'smy own personal experience with
how people react to me and theway that I speak, to say that If
(38:58):
you think that I'm lesseducated, that's your problem.
You know, not mine.
You know and you know just allthese perceptions and, living in
New York City and hearing thedifferent accents, do you think
someone who speaks with anItalian accent is less educated?
Like you hear Italian, I couldtell an Irish person accent,
(39:19):
especially if they come fromBoston you know, if someone is
from deep South, versus like itdoesn't commute, it doesn't, and
I don't know where that comesfrom.
I think that's a bigger issuewith the English language
generally.
But that's all.
We're going off into anotherend, but I'm loving this
conversation and there's a lot,so I'm going to jump to the AI
(39:40):
part where I feel like like,should I be worried?
To AI.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Before I get there.
I also want to point out thatyou know outside of the
education sector, like people inmedia, they have a huge
responsibility as well in orderto promote programs.
Have programs in Jamaican,because the more we hear it, I
think, the more we will have anappreciation for it.
(40:07):
So read the news in Jamaican.
And again I'm going back tonative language and
comprehension, because when youlisten to some people, how would
they interpret what was said onthe news?
You wonder if you and themlisten to the same news.
But if they were in if it wassaid, like you said, the patwa
(40:32):
version of the New Testament.
Now, as a religious person too,I read different versions of
the Bible and you haveappreciation for different
versions, whether it's a test,the NIV.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
I like NLT, but some things you can't read it in NLT.
You can only read the 23rdPsalm in KJV version because
it's on a certain way.
I think I like that examplebecause it's a perfect way.
Some verses in the Bible KJVdon't go with NIV or NLT because
you know it just sown out adifferent way, yeah yeah, and it
(41:10):
doesn't give you the message.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
You know some things and words very, very powerful,
and it's just why I tell mystudents all the time, and even
when in my columns, when I'mvery deliberate, I'm very
intentional with my word choice,because it sends the message
that I want it to send.
Now, when you read the NewTestament in Jamaican, you get
(41:33):
the imagery deeper than with theEnglish province, so the
story's not lost on you.
And again, when you get thatinner language that you
understand very well, it stayswith you much longer than in a
foreign language.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Listen, I'm reading the Bible in chronological order
.
I cannot wait to get to the NewTestament because I am reading
it all.
Jamaica, batua, which I don'tknow.
I guess the whole Testamentpart is going to take a while,
but I really appreciate it.
I'm really enjoying thislanguage.
You know this conversation onlanguage because, I mean, I'm
(42:15):
not a linguist, but when I tellyou I love my language and
culture, I love it.
So now let's get to the AI part, where we do a lot with the
worry about AI.
I taught Jamaican but evenbefore that I sent you the
(42:42):
article with the this woman.
She's in the UK.
They were hiring people to talkJamaican and then you have
people who are discussed thatthe language is not going away.
But we kind of feel away whenpeople who don't really come
from the language or speak thelanguage.
(43:02):
I did not say this, the BBCarticle did say this.
May I put that as a preference.
I'm not.
Nobody come for me.
The Jamaican language hasbecome a central part of the
linguistic fabric of Toronto.
If I were in Toronto I wouldsay Toronto, because that's how
they say it.
If I were in Toronto, I wouldsay Toronto, because that's how
they say it.
It's now widely spoken bypeople who have no ethnic or
(43:23):
heritage connection to Jamaica,most recently reignited by
Toronto, toronto, the TorontoRapa native Drake.
So we have two things wherepeople are, there's this aspect
(43:45):
of AI coming, and what does thismean?
Everybody go talk Patois andthis idea that it's ours and we
want to hold on to it and wewant to gatekeep it and guard it
.
So there's a lot that'shappening in there.
On one hand, we want togatekeep it nobody take it.
But on the other hand, there'sthis AI thing that potentially
could be helpful.
But, as I've seen, in this ageof technology enhancement, fly
(44:07):
the gate is not what's the word.
There's a danger in a fly thegate and let everybody come in
with it.
So what are your thoughts?
on that we're just going toleave it right.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
I'm very interesting question, um.
So, with the propagation of ai,which is not new, I remember
when chat gpt came up about innovember 2022, you know, a lot
of concerns were raised and Iremember I was one of the
(44:42):
columnists locally who said,listen, I'm in language
education.
We've always been usingartificial intelligence, we've
always been using GoogleTranslate and other things, so
it's really not new.
So I wasn't concerned about,you know, the threats, what the
future of education would looklike, and there have been so
(45:04):
many evolutions.
When cell phones came aboutmark, I think it did before I
came, you know, at sense, butthere are people were skeptical
about it as well, and it'sbecome a useful tool, and so I
think we have to look at thepositive side because, one again
(45:25):
, language is culture and a lotof people, for the longest while
, who are non-jamaicans, havewanted to understand what the
dancehall songs and the reggaesongs are saying, to understand
what the dancehall songs and thereggae songs are saying.
So now they can do thisindependently.
I remember one of my friendsfrom Mayotte, in one of those
(45:48):
African countries.
He was asking me what isSpice's song is saying.
You know, spice can be very youknow, know raunchy in some of
her lyrics and I'm like bro,what are you?
What kind of song you'relistening to?
Anyway, I told him what thesong meant.
(46:09):
So they're listening to thesesongs, they they look up to a
lot of our art in gizland.
So I think it now gives them aspace independently to be able
to research and get anunderstanding of what they're
intaking.
And I think when more peoplehave an appreciation for the
(46:33):
language, it's even greaterpotency for us to officialize
the language.
So you know, there are manybenefits to it.
One of the things that I foundstriking some years ago when
another petition was done toofficialize Jamaican, the
Jamaican language.
When you looked at those whosigned the petition, most of
(46:56):
them were non-Jamaican andnon-Jamaican linguists.
A lot of people who are, in mydiscipline, some reputable
linguists, calling for theofficialization of the Jamaican
language because they understandthe benefits and the agency
that come with knowing alanguage, and so you realize
(47:25):
that there's a lot more.
But many non-Jamaicansappreciate the language more
than those native speakers do,which is, you know, it is
contradictory.
So I feel like it's good thatwe have these platforms.
Google Translate does haveJamaican language as well.
(47:47):
Chachi PT now has Jamaicanlanguage.
So they are a risk of Titan, ofcourse, and I think, who knows,
very soon they may be used inthe custody model to do the
translations, and so it providesavenues because now that it
(48:11):
becomes, the standardized partis there.
It opens jobs, opportunitiesfor people.
So you will have official Patwatranslators and interpreters
who can do things and it helps.
I remember I was travelingrecently and this has happened a
(48:35):
lot during my job was where Ihad to interpret for people.
I was traveling to Mexicorecently and there was this
Asian maybe he was Chinese wasgoing to Denmark and he
understood barely anything inEnglish, much less to understand
anything in Spanish.
(48:56):
So I stood there at immigration, at customs, you know, just to
help him out.
So imagine being in a contextwhere the Jamaican language is
the language that is needed tobe used and you know whomever is
there is able to provide thatsort of agency to help somebody
(49:18):
else.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
So I think it's very useful and through that, those
media, those media to us asnative speakers, we learn more
about the language because wedon't know everything so I do
appreciate the idea of having atranslator, because my daughter
told a story like when she wasyounger and she was working at
(49:41):
one of like one of those chainrestaurants you sit down and eat
.
You know, this Jamaican ladyand her family was ordering and
her co-workers didn't understandwhat they wanted and so they
called my daughter, who she'snot a native speaker, she born
here but because she bilingual,because she live in the house,
she was able to translate andtake the lady other, because the
(50:03):
lady I talk she's like mommy,the lady so like she come from
kinston, which she would knowbecause, as her parents, I tell
her that I have an idea of whichpart of jamaica people come
from based on how they speak,and she translated that.
But also on a more, a moresomber note, like when my
grandmother, who lived inJamaica until like maybe 2003
(50:29):
fully, and then she had a strokeand at one point she had to go
into the hospital.
She was thriving and recoveringwhen and she wasn't in a place
where a lot of Jamaicans andWest Indians live right, she was
in the Midwest and so there arenot too many people who are
there but she was thriving whenthe person who was on her
(50:50):
rotation to take care of her wasJamaican and so she would be
able to understand.
And so I found that when shewas communicating with them,
they would not understand.
So what happened was shestopped talking, and because she
stopped talking, they took thatas a cue that she wasn't being
responsive.
And it wasn't the case, becausewhen I was there, when we had
(51:12):
to finally make the decision toput her on hospice care, this
doctor was telling me she's notresponsive.
I'm like I went in there and Iwas talking to her and she
respond, but because you allaren't understanding what she's
saying even though she's, she'stalking English.
You know cause?
My grandmother, you know shetalked English but there's a
slight accent there.
They weren't taking the time toone and my grandmother comes
(51:34):
from a generation where they'rekind of soft spokenspoken and
they're a different way.
And, you know, it would havebeen very helpful for someone
who would be able to understand.
And I play this in my headsometime I was like maybe if she
had the stroke in New Yorkshe'd have recovered fine,
because without put her in thehospital here, and even when it
(51:54):
wasn't like my mom and my unclescouldn't visit her, but the
nurses, the healthcareprofessions, are around her all
the time, right?
So you need someone who's ableto kind of understand, even you
know, for instance, mygrandmother typical grandma
language Boy I was handing outthe flyer and the guy didn't
(52:15):
take it.
I'ma feel cute, you know you,and I know what she means by she
feel cute.
Somebody else would be like whatare you talking about, right?
Or I had this experience andanother guest had this
experience where I was in highschool and, um, somebody was
offended by something that I didI'm a say, but me tell her and
(52:37):
the girl did by something that Idid.
And they said, but Metella Osh,and the girl did.
She was like she took it to be.
You know, be quiet, and that'snot what I meant.
Osh is our way of saying sorry.
And another guest came on theshow and said he, when he came
to go to college in Georgia andhe told somebody Osh, the girl
was about to ready to light himup and then he realized that, oh
(53:00):
, something is wrong.
And even more recently at work,I was sitting on a call and I
was talking to a colleague and Iwas like me feel like a donut.
And he looked at me like Idon't know.
And then I saw his face and Icorrected myself and I said I
feel like having a donut.
He was like oh, I wasn't sureif you physically felt like a
(53:24):
donut.
So I think there is a reallystrong argument for the
interpreters because, like yousaid, there's some things that
even with AI, there's contextsthat it may not be able to pick
up.
Like I feel like a donut, youknow.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Yeah, one of the disadvantages we've looked at in
language learning and the youknow absence of is, you know,
the cultural nuance that theselarge language models are not
able to pick up on, and soyou're going to need people to
do that for you.
And again, language providesagency and access.
(54:08):
Now imagine going into acontext you are not well, but
you speak Jamaican.
That's the only language you'reable to express whatever you're
going through, but your medicalpractitioner doesn't understand
.
It has implications.
You go into a court system andthat's one of the things we're
(54:29):
lobbying for in Jamaica as wellwhere you're speaking the king's
English and you want the clientto understand exactly what's
happening.
So we need to provide placeswhere the language can be used
so people leave with the correctunderstanding and
(54:52):
interpretation.
You use these melody and the,the jar, the legal jargon that
can become so cumbersome.
It's not helping the averageCreole-a-phone speaker.
Speaker 1 (55:07):
Creole-a-phone speaker.
I'm a Creole-a-phone speaker.
No, I know we could go on andon.
So when it comes to thediaspora, we talk about how the
language begins to evolvebecause you have Jamaican and
then you have New York languagespeak and all of this wrap up
and mix up.
What does that mean in terms oflinguistic terms?
(55:30):
Is it just the way in Spanishyou have?
You know, spanish from Spainversus Latin?
Is that where we are when itcomes to Jamaican language?
Speaker 2 (55:43):
Absolutely, it happens in every language.
It's what we callsociolinguistics.
So you look at the socialcontext attached to the language
, which is why people from StElizabeth have a particular type
of ator versus those from Moby,which you're from the West, you
know.
Speaker 1 (55:58):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (56:00):
And I think Moby uses they when day.
A person from kingston wouldnot use that.
So you can identify certainregions based on, you know,
these little inserts that theyuse and certain things that they
use to designate certainobjects as well.
(56:21):
It's like calling Dandesh onthe sight and sight.
Sightings or something like that.
So you could be in the samecountry with different parishes
and somebody says sightings andyou'll be like huh, what is that
?
Anybody used to speak sightingsin their primary school and
you're like what is that?
So you used to play sightingsin the primary school.
And you're like what is that?
So you start to explain it oh,Dandishandi, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:45):
Yeah, we call it sight on sight, you know I first
met your sight on sight, yeahsight on sight.
We call it At least mygeneration call my husband.
Right now, Dandishandi is likeno, this Dandishandi isn.
Right now, dandy Shandy is likeno, this Dandy Shandy.
Isn't that a drink?
You know, so you have.
You have some of that.
And even you know, in this agewe're in where you have pronouns
(57:09):
Jamaicans been using them youknow long time.
You know, so you know it's.
It's so interesting how we usethem to pluralize.
You know just different things.
Speaker 2 (57:22):
And him.
We talk about a female too.
Speaker 1 (57:24):
Yeah, yeah, or you know just the way.
That again, context and region,you know, you know somebody
will come from St Thomas, StElizabeth, Kingston, to
Elizabeth Kinston, Like, I think, Kinstonians, depending on
where you are.
In Kinston you speak almost in asing-songy type way if you come
(57:45):
from a certain part of Kinstonversus you know other people,
but it's this is what I loveabout our language, and that's
so fascinating, because ifyou're not from Jamaica, you
wouldn't even realize that theseare like nuances that happen on
the island itself.
And so I'm going to wrap it up,because I don't want to keep
(58:05):
you, although I feel like I needyou for something else, so let
me look.
So what's the one takeaway youwant people have when it comes
to?
You know the Jamaican language,language, justice, you know, in
terms of.
You know our language is foreveryone, and you know whether
(58:29):
you're poor or you're rich.
You know we need to make surethat, you know, the citizens of
our country are able torepresent themselves and speak
in a way that is familiar tothem and that be acceptable,
right?
It's not that they can't do it,it's just not acceptable in
some places, right?
(58:49):
And yeah, what's your words?
Because this is evolving, sothere's no final word.
So what's your thoughts as oftoday?
Because, you know, next week awhole different story.
Speaker 2 (59:00):
Yeah, all right Languages Agency.
And in a country like Jamaica,where the national language is
Jamaican Creole, the majority ofthe population speaks, why is
it not an official language one?
And we need to provide, youknow, avenue spaces where people
(59:22):
are able to express themselvesin their native language without
feeling like they're beingdiscriminated against or that
they're unintelligent becausethey do not speak the dominant
language, the language ofinstruction, the posh language,
which is English.
We should accommodate people.
(59:46):
We should accommodate peopleand it's one of the
conversations that I've raised,based on my recent research
articles how, as a person whoteaches English language,
academic literacy, how do wefacilitate that in our courses
as well?
And how do my colleagues thatteach English language across
(01:00:08):
the education system, how dothey feel about incorporating
Jamaican Creole in the educationsystem?
That's a conversation we needto have.
System.
That's a conversation we needto have.
We need to not see Jamaicanlanguage as bad English, because
it affects how people feelabout themselves.
(01:00:29):
I have had students who havetold me sir, I'm very, very
conscious when I have to speakstandard English, because they
don't want to make any mistakeand they don't want to come off
with an accent and that kind ofstuff.
But we need, at the same time,cruel is looked upon, as you
(01:00:50):
know, informal and uneducated.
So we need to strike a balance,because if you're going to be
fearful of speaking Englishbecause you don't want to make a
mistake and it's not yournative language, so why are we
not embracing our nativelanguage On a more international
scale?
I feel, with the continuousevolution of artificial
(01:01:13):
intelligence and technology ingeneral, it will provide scope
for people to access an agency.
The justice system needs to bemore accommodative.
I remember at UTEC we had alecture recently and it was a
(01:01:34):
lawyer who has a PhD inlinguistics.
So her background is veryinteresting.
So she looks at legal justicefrom a language perspective, a
linguistic perspective in theCaribbean, and so I raised some
of the points you know you'regoing to the court system.
Are we accommodating the averageCreole speaker in an English
(01:02:00):
court system?
Are we accommodating our nativeJamaican children in a language
that they understand?
And again, we just arepromoting bilingual education
because we see in the nationaland regional exams each year
that our students do not performwell in English language and in
(01:02:24):
mathematics too, and I feellike if they're taught in a
language that they understand,again, comprehend on them, it
could yield greater results.
So I want to commend mycolleagues, my cruel linguists
in Jamaica and the Caribbean andelsewhere, putting in the work.
I do my advocacy through forumslike this one and also through
(01:02:49):
my writings and research, sothat we can continue to elevate
the conversation.
But, most importantly, I feellike a lot of work needs to come
from governance, governance ofthe country, because if they
push it then we will reach, youknow, a greater level in terms
of what we want.
Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
Thank you for that.
That, I guess.
A question does the Jamaicanlanguage unit have a dictionary?
Because somebody said somethingthe other day.
Somebody sent me a joke and Isaid what really does bilious
mean?
I got it from the context, butit's almost like, where did this
(01:03:35):
word derive from?
Because if you look up ourEnglish language, it tells us
origin and all of that stuff.
Right, and it would be so coolfor us to have something similar
.
So I'm just curious if there'sany of that in the words there
is, so it's ongoing.
Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
I know Joseph Ferguson from the Jamaican
Language Unit.
He posts these words maybeweekly, at least a word, a
Jamaican word on LinkedIn.
So I know he and others areworking on a dictionary and,
(01:04:13):
interestingly, based on myrecollection, the dictionary
will have the Jamaican word,then it will have the
translationsican word, then itwill have the translations in
English and maybe French andSpanish.
Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
That's nice.
Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
We're getting to places.
We're getting to places, andthe language is so rich and
dynamic it's hard to keep upwith.
I know, because oursociolinguistics is very
colorful, it's like, and becauseyou know you have to content
with pop culture every day, soyou have to content with
(01:04:47):
dancehall music, reggae musicevery day, and everything.
Every new movement brings aboutnew terminologies that you have
to try to keep up with, so it'svery interesting and the other.
Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
So we have another show called reels and rhythms
and we were talking, we werereviewing rockers from the 70s
and we're, just likerastafarianism, brought a whole
nother level of words to what wekind of use, like instead of
understand is overstand.
You know, even the other day Iwas talking to my friend I don't
know if this is a thing and hesaid, kerry, you know, I don't
(01:05:25):
appreciate you, I appreciatelove you.
I was just like you know.
So you know it's, it's allthese ways that our culture is
dynamic, it's rich, it'sevolving and you know, I am so
grateful to have thisconversation.
I hope you come back and tellme whatever else is going on and
we can chat.
But I'll put where people canfind you in the show notes and
(01:05:48):
we're not going to be done,we're going at the show notes.
I'm going to ask some otherquestion and I might read what
Aunt Roachie say.
So, as I love to say at the endof every episode, walk good.
Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of
Carry On Friends, the CaribbeanAmerican experience, and I am
very excited I know you hear mesay this all the time but I'm
very excited to have O'Neal onthe podcast.
Hello O'Neal, how are you doing?
Or should I say bonjour, orshould I say bonsoir?
We're not Haitian, but you knowall of the things.
How are you?
I say we're not Haitian, butyou know all of the things.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
How are you?
Bonjour, buenas tardes.
I'm very well.
Thank you and hello everyonewho is hearing my voice and you
know everybody who will listenfrom across the world.
You know my fans and friends,colleagues from Jamaica, the
Caribbean, from France, theFrench West Indies as well, and
(00:46):
from Latin America.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yes, Greetings, wonderful, all right.
So we give the people anintroduction to all the
languages you can speak.
So why don't you tell thecommunity of friends a little
bit more about you Caribbeancountry you represent, and the
work that you do?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
All right.
So I am Jamaican I mustemphasize that Very proud of my
roots and you know my heritage.
I am a lecturer, linguist andresearcher currently at the
Language Teaching and ResearchCenter that is attached to the
Faculty of Education and LiberalStudies at the University of
(01:24):
Technology, jamaica.
I teach academic literacy andFrench and I have worked at
other institutions, both locallyand internationally, where I
teach Spanish-related courses,linguistics, culture.
I have a research background intechnology, in language
(01:50):
teaching and learning.
I look at artificialintelligence.
I look at gamification as well.
I look at Jamaican language,jamaican Creole.
I'm not a Creole linguist perse, but I take interest in
Creole as a less commonly taughtlanguage.
(02:10):
Outside of academia, I am aseasoned columnist with the
Jamaica Observer.
I have a space in the paper ona Friday where I talk about
national issues, current affairs, social issues, and I touch on
things happening internationallyas well.
I also work as a freelancejournalist with the Jamaican
(02:33):
Observer.
Outside of being a columnist, Iam an author as well and I love
traveling.
So I always say, even thoughI'm a linguist, on the applied
science or applied linguist, butI see myself more as an
intercultural specialist becauseI really, like you know, going
(02:57):
around, visiting differentcultures, countries, meeting
different people, learning abouttheir backgrounds and what
makes them unique.
So, yeah, those are some of thethings that define what I do.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
The list is long and I'm not surprised because you're
a Jamaican.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I am excited and so, for the audience, everything
that you said is kind ofgrounding us in the conversation
we want to have today.
Well, I've been wanting to haveand it's about language, and so
, before we get into thatconversation, talk to me about
why you chose to focus in thisarea linguistics.
(03:41):
You know all of that.
Talk to me about it in thisarea.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Linguistics, you know all of that.
Talk to me about it.
All right, I knew from.
I was exposed to Spanish firstin first form in high school,
and in second form I was exposedto French because at that time
where I did my secondaryeducation, depending on your
average in first form, you werestreamed in second form and the
(04:08):
stream groups got theopportunity to do French.
And so I just felt like andthis is something that we looked
at in research and I've testedit, I've been lecturing for 10
years that when you have ateacher who is passionate and
enthusiastic about what they do,they kind of have that
influence on you.
(04:29):
So I feel like those teacherswho I had in my foundation years
contributed to me pursuinglanguages, and it's another way
of seeing the world, and so Ienjoy what I do.
(04:50):
And the funny thing is, when Igot to upper school, in fifth
form, my clearest pathway wasthrough the language.
So my top grades were inEnglish, french and Spanish.
So I knew that that was theroad I was going to take.
What field Would it be?
(05:11):
You know, in education?
Would it be in internationalrelations?
I eventually decided to go toTeachers College and I met some
wonderful lecturers there aswell.
And in that space, in my thirdyear, we had the opportunity to
go to France.
So well, I majored in French, Iminored in Spanish.
(05:32):
So, based on your major, youwould either go to France or
Panama at the time.
So, interestingly, my Spanishwas much better than my French
and I thought that I wanted tobring my French to my Spanish
level.
But I ended up, you know just,you know, french just escalated
(05:52):
like that To the point where Iwent back to France after my
undergrad.
I spent seven years.
So I'm fully fluent, nativelevel, in French and I am
wrapping up my doctoraldissertation and I'm writing it
in French yes, are you them saybright.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
But um side note, I want to ask you which part of
Jamaica you come from.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
I am from the cool, cool hills of Tower Hill in
Mavis Bank.
That's where the coffee factoryis.
Yes, so that's in East Rural StAndrew I'm from.
I'm a country boy.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
I'm a proud country boy, but you know, listen, we
country people unite, becausewhenever I tell anybody I come
from Jamaica, I say where youcome from oh country, I say it's
a city.
Calm your nerves, but I'm proudof the Tigers still, but lovely,
all right.
So I wanted to have thisconversation.
Two inciting events.
(06:56):
So I'm in a WhatsApp group andthe group.
Someone in the group shared thelink that there is a government
, the New York City housingwebsite had the ability to
translate what was on thewebsite to Patois, and so there
was this conversation, how itfeel unprofessional and a bunch
of stuff right, and to mepersonally, what I find is
(07:25):
challenging is the conversationaround colonialism, what is
proper and all of that.
I don't have a problem with theofficial city website, with the
Patois, in terms ofunprofessional, in terms of
unprofessional, keriannepersonally feels some type of
(07:45):
way.
So the AI I use the languagebecause, as I've, one of the
superpowers that I have andpeople are always amazed is when
I speak so nicely and then wejust jump in at the patu and
they're like, oh my God, what isthat?
Mr Norman is a super poetistand so what I feel very attached
to is particularly, languagehas become my identity.
(08:06):
So when I left good, good,mount Alvernia and come America
to live right and then went backto Jamaica, my cousin and I
said my God, you talk, what'sthat way you live here Right,
because in the diaspora,language becomes a central part
of identity.
So you hold on to it.
Becomes a central part ofidentity, so you hold on to it,
(08:27):
like when I met my I shouldn'tsay when I met my uncles.
When I moved here my uncles hadbeen in America donkey years,
just donkey years, and then, asLouise Bennett said, no little
twang never, in there, right.
And so now I'm at the age wherethey were when I first came and
I'm like my God I have sometwang, but you know if I'm at
the age where they were when Ifirst came and I'm like my God,
I have some twang, but you knowif I'm in community.
(08:48):
So part of my concern is whatdoes it mean when AI and all
these other people have accessto language, whereas before and
I want to read something fromMiss Lou's Aunt Rochi said when
we can't talk and we can't gofast and we can't go slow and we
don't want nobody to understandwhat we're saying, all of these
(09:10):
things, right, and so I wantedto.
So those are the two incitingthings.
And then, third, my challengewith this push to translate
everything into Patois is thatand this is where we're going to
probably be a little boundarypushing that and this is where
we're going to probably be alittle boundary pushing.
(09:36):
We are fluent in Patois, but wemay be illiterate in reading and
writing it, because we knowthat there's an appreciation of
it.
There's no codification of theproper way to spell a word,
right.
There's variations of how somepeople want to say gyal versus
gyal, or gwe or whatever it isright, and later down in the
after show I'll read from MissAnt Rochise, miss Lou, which I
(09:56):
have right here.
It is difficult to read patwaand read it in a way that's
fluent, and I think that's alsopart of the adjustment in the
identity.
Like you are fluent in it butyou may be illiterate because
you can't read it as well as youspeak it or write it.
So I know, as a journalistyou're going to say my girl, you
(10:17):
just gave a very long backstory.
Cut Me need for answer but Ijust wanted to set it up.
Caught my need for answer but Ijust wanted to set it up, you
know.
So what are your thoughts aboutlanguages and identity and the
properness of Patois beingtranslated and all?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
of that.
I think you've said quite someinteresting things, and the
question that you just asked isvery personal and very relevant
in the Jamaican context and alsoin the diaspora.
Language is identity and, assomebody who is multilingual, I
can tell you that Whenever Ispeak French, I feel very French
(11:00):
.
I wasn't born French, I wasborn in a Francophone country,
but I feel very French.
I wasn't born French, I wasborn in a Francophone country,
but I feel very French.
And when I speak in English orJamaican, I feel very Jamaican.
And language is a way of life,it's a way of thinking, and
which is why, when we get intotranslations, for example and
(11:22):
given that it's within my scope,I know very well some ideas are
very difficult to translatebecause they are from a cultural
perspective and some are nottranslatable at all.
And so your final language isidentity, and which is why
sometimes and identity andheritage and solidarity, which
(11:43):
is why I think for you, when yougo into a foreign country and
you meet up with people fromwhere you're from, that kind of
solidarity comes in.
It's like you can't have a fullconversation just in standard
English.
Some amount of Potwa must drivein the conversation.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Listen my friend in Jamaica.
He says anytime a Jamaican comeon the show you cannot contain
the patwa.
It just bursts right, even onthe road.
You're just like.
We went to Hershey Park andthere's the young lady was
navigating us to the shuttle bus, to the parking lot and me just
hear she say a word and me knowshe's a Jamaican and me, just
(12:26):
stop, talk to her.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Yes, so it identifies who you are, so to some extent,
we do have an accent asJamaican, so you're able to
identify that as well, and so itis important for us.
You know, we're living in atime, especially the decade 2022
(12:48):
to 2032 the united nations hasdeclared that decade as the
decade of indigenous languages,so they're calling for us to
promote indigenous languages,you languages that are
endangered, and so it's acritical point that we're at
(13:09):
regarding language transitionand Jamaican patois.
And I remember when one time Iwas in France, I was with
another Jamaican and we werethere because sometimes you want
to say some things you know andnobody understands what you're
saying, and so I remember we'recode switching a lot and this
(13:33):
young lady she just kept lookingat us Afterwards.
We asked her if she understood.
She said a few things.
It happened that she was fromIda Martinique Guadeloupe, so
she was able either martinicaguadalupe, so she was said she
was able to follow certainthings, and then we were like we
have to be very careful, youknow, because you just don't
know who may be understandingwhat you're saying, and so it
(13:55):
gives you that.
You know, just in thatsuperpower, when you're in
certain spaces, you want tocommunicate certain things, you
want to send certain messages.
It's just like you can't givecertain jokes in standard
english because they will nothave the effect that you want
them to have.
You can't express certainthings in standard english.
(14:16):
When you draw for a jamaicanreference, the message goes home
and which is why, as you know,as as a linguist, I am big on.
You know, I know it's a touchydebate, but I am one of those
people who believe that childrenshould be educated in their
modern language.
(14:36):
So if we're going to gobilingual roads, let's go that
road.
Teach them in english, teachthem in jamaican.
Cruel because, um, intelligenceis not a matter of whether you
speak standard english or not.
Intelligence is a matter ofcomprehension and children need
to comprehend, they need tounderstand what is being
(14:57):
transmitted onto them and,because of language perception
over the many decades and years,it's really stifled a lot of
Jamaicans.
I remember when I was doing amaster's thesis in France, I was
looking at teaching English asa second language in Jamaica and
it did not dawn on me untilthat point I was in my early 20s
(15:24):
that I was actually bilingualas an adult.
It was my supervisor, who wasFrench, who said to us, which
was with my Jamaican friend.
Well, you guys are bilingualand that shifted everything,
everything, everything for me.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Listen.
The minute I came to Americaand the reception to the way
that I spoke, compared to how Iwas groomed to speak in high
school in Jamaica, I recognizedthat, oh, you know, I have this
other language and even the waythat I can express that, you
(16:12):
know, and that's part of why alot of times my friends, they
will say, carrie, where you getthese words from?
I go back and use words thatthey won't, you know, like most
commonly won't use.
No, they are words that mygrandmother and older people
would use because I recognizethat they are in danger of being
(16:36):
lost.
So I use it so sometimes.
And then I love the Proverbs,so, like I was telling my friend
we were talking and I said,little pig have big ears, and
she's like what I'm going to say, the pig need to listen, you
know.
So it's like even in that way,you know, just using language
(17:00):
and I am, this entire show, youknow, is an evolution of how I
even embrace that language.
Because in the beginning I waslike welcome, you know, and I
was all you know tone andtwanging.
And now I'm like hey, everybody, wagwan, and you know.
And the other story that incitedme to start the podcast.
I was interviewing a young manfor a position and one of the
(17:23):
questions some standard questionyour weakness and your strength
and he said his weakness washis accent.
And I went through theinterview and at the end, as I
was walking him through the door, I was like your accent is not
a weakness at all.
And now I mean, look how muchmoney them up here, hollywood
actors, we try to get withaccent and we have it, you know.
So I love, I love that.
(17:46):
I want to double clicking tosomething what you said 2022 to
2032, the decade of indigenouslanguage.
Why make I mean everyone?
This is a language show, sowe're going to be switching
because we are.
I'm bilingual and he'strilingual, or at least.
I know five language.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Right.
So why did the UN designate thedecade of languages that we
have will just cut into, theywill just disappear.
And so, in order to strengthenthat and to preserve language,
the UN says let us, you know,pilot some projects, let us do
everything that we can topromote, let's look at language
(18:50):
policies in schools, incommunities, how we can preserve
these languages.
And also to again to the pointwhere there are still many
countries where people areilliterate because they are not
being taught in the languagethat they know, and that's
(19:11):
troubling for me.
Now, I speak differentlanguages and I know the English
language very well, but, again,a lot of people identify or,
you know, they look at thecorrelation between intelligence
and speaking the Englishlanguage.
And I'm like, for me that's nota marker of being bright.
(19:35):
So, which is why I you knowthat, the young man that you
interviewed it is one of thethings that people struggle with
, that they've always beenspoken to about their accent, so
they feel like it's a barrier,that it's a weakness when listen
, that's how you speak and Iremember, you know, learning
different languages and becauseI'm native level in French,
(19:56):
sometimes I'm asked a questionhave you ever, you know,
attempted to speak like theFrench.
I'm like listen, I am notFrench, so I'm not going to put
on an accent to sound French.
If that's your, you know, ifthat's your objective, fine, I
will not say don't, but you'regoing to put on an accent to
sound friend.
If that's your, you know that'syour objective, fine, I will
not say don't, but you're goingto hear that I am not a native
(20:16):
speaker.
So it's interesting because I,as I said, travel a lot and I
remember one time I was comingback to jamaica on a flight
beside this guy I think he washe's, he's from before, neither
from france or belgium, and cameto mobay.
We ended up coming into kingstontogether.
So we went to the bus stationto get the bus to come into
(20:40):
kingston and he asked mesomething in english, but I'm
very much french, so the frenchjust came out.
He, I responded to him inFrench and he's like what?
So we started having aconversation about French, and
then he's like he's trying tounderstand where I was from,
because he thought, of course, Iwas Francophone, but I have a
(21:03):
slight accent, so I'm not French.
And then I was like I'mJamaican and he's like that's
not possible.
He was like I'm Jamaican andhe's like that's not possible.
He was like I'm very muchJamaican, I started out in
Hawaii, in France, and blah,blah, blah.
But I'm not trying to hide myidentity, so I'm not going to
imitate an accent, because it iswho I am.
(21:26):
So people need to embrace.
People need to embrace theiraccent, their languages, and
it's interesting that you know.
Our things become extinct, ourlanguages become extinct because
we give precedent to thedominant languages that are used
(21:50):
across the world Before youknow it.
I don't classify JamaicanCreole as an endangered language
because a lot of us speak it.
I don't see it going anywhere.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
You thought that was my next question.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
It's not going anywhere.
It's not going anywhere, butyou know, because I look at
minority languages across theboard, even though I don't
specialize in a specialize inminority languages, but it's one
of the realities that you know,some of these languages are
becoming next state and I havecolleagues across the world.
You know, I was at a conferencerecently working with
(22:24):
colleagues who teach Malteselanguage, who teach the one in
Ireland.
What's that called?
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Gaelic Right, irish and Gaelic right.
So I have colleagues who areworking with those minority
languages to promote thoselanguages so that you know they
can have bilingual education aswell, because that's how we're
going to, you know, have thelanguages continue and not die
off, because so much culture andso much history and literature
(22:56):
is attached to a language.
So it's not just grammar andvocabulary but again, identity,
culture, so much that you canlearn about generations when you
pass on native languages.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
I want to come back to this idea of literacy and I
mean, you're going to talk aboutthe Jamaican context, but I
have kids who are born inAmerica and I remember a cousin.
She's technically my mother'scousin, but you know we are
Jamaicans.
No second, third, a cousin.
She's technically my mother'scousin, but you know we are
Jamaicans.
No, second, third, a cousin,right.
And I said to I was talking tomy kids and she said I
(23:37):
understand what you're saying.
I said I don't know what otherlanguage you're talking to us,
right To the point that whenthey're ready they start to make
fun Like this is mommy, whenshe wanted to do something Me,
say for potato.
You know like they understandit.
Now you know that they're notnative speakers because you hear
(23:57):
that American twang with it,but they understand it.
And I think you know, throughoutthe time of doing the show, a
lot of second generationJamaican Americans.
They often find people tellthem that they're not Jamaican
because you can hear, eventhough they can speak and they
(24:18):
know the patua, you still hearthat American twang in there and
they kind of feel insecureabout it.
So when it comes to and I guessthis plays into literacy,
because there's this aspect of Idon't know what's the right
word like this self-awarenessand insecurity about how you're
(24:40):
coming off, whether you writingit, that's one and maybe what
the movement is.
But comprehension, I don'tnecessarily think at least, is
the bigger issue, because mostpeople comprehend it as like how
(25:01):
do you read and begin to writeand communicate maybe more
effectively in your nativelanguage, if that makes sense?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
right, um, and you're doing a good thing.
It I was teased.
I'm not working in francebecause I worked in foreign
languages unit, and so I've hadstudents who they are coming
from a bilingual or amultilingual background in terms
of their parents and theirgenerations, but their parents
(25:30):
never communicated to them inthe language of the parents.
So imagine you live in france,you're learning english, but
your parents are from spain anditaly and you're you have to
learn italian and spanish inschool because your parents
never spoke those languages athome.
(25:50):
I'm like I think your parentswho do that they're robbing
their children of a veryimportant asset that they need
to have.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yes, and both can be true.
What I learned, particularlyfrom Haitian guests, and I
remember this woman who'sJamaican like her.
She wasn't on the show, but Ihad a conversation with her.
She wasn't allowed to talkPatois, and I think a lot of
(26:21):
that had to do with theirimmigration experience.
When they came here, they didnot want their children to have
to deal with any of thediscrimination or bullying that
happened.
So some of that is because offear, and you know the culture
at the time when they migrated.
(26:41):
You know it was cool toicans,but before that the prior
generation had, they were tryingto blend in, and that was part
of the reason why that a lot ofpeople just did not teach their
kids the language or forbadethem.
(27:03):
They could communicate in thehouse, but forbade them from
speaking it.
So I wanted to share that.
Those are some of the storiesthat I've heard, but not today
yeah, not today, not today nottoday yes, it's a very important
asset to have.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
And just to tie that with research, since I'm also a
researcher, researcher researchhas shown that you know, people
who are bilingual,multilingualilingual they tend
to have fewer effects ofdementia when they get old.
So because there's a linguisticgymnastic that is taking place,
(27:42):
so your brain is active andthat continues until you get old
.
So there are cognitive andhealth benefits and intellectual
benefits too, when you aremultilingual.
Now back to the matter.
You know self-awareness,perception, literacy.
I remember in undergrad andfunny enough, this happened
(28:09):
earlier on today I went to seeone of my students by the food
court and this other studentcame by buying something.
So my student and I weretalking and then he was like
where are you from?
You speak with an accent, oh,you're Jamaican.
And I get this question quiteoften for some strange reason.
(28:31):
I remember in undergrad I washosting a radio program and I
was communicating Jamaican fromtime to time and then my friends
would be WhatsApping me and belike man, stick to English.
And I'm like guys, I'm Jamaicanas well, allow me to express
myself using the Jamaicanlanguage.
And so some people feel like Idon't understand it and master
(28:54):
it.
But I can tell you that I knowmore Creole than you because I
studied these things, you know.
So it's a matter of acceptingthat language comes with accents
and variations.
We're not all going to speakthe same way and we have to
really move away from the notionof, you know, being this bad
(29:16):
patois or this bad English, sowe have to appreciate diversity
and variations.
The point about I think youprobably refer to, you know
non-standardization of theJamaican language.
Now the Jamaican language hasgone through decades of
codification and currently themost popular model that is used
(29:43):
is called the Cassidy model andthat the Jamaican language unit
at the University of Western DesMoines campus in Kingston.
They have done a lot of work on, you know, having a standard
for the Jamaican language.
Is it well known?
(30:03):
No, and that's one of theconversations I keep having with
my colleagues that listen.
We need to get it in theteachers' colleges Because if
the teachers are the ones whoare going to interact with the
students the most, we need tohave our teachers at least do an
(30:23):
elective course in Jamaicanlanguage so that they can pass
it on when they go into thesystem.
So I remember having thisconversation very recently,
because if we're moving, I don'tknow at what point, but I know
that at least one politicalparty is suggesting that they
(30:43):
would officialize JamaicanCreole were they to form the
next government.
But officialization comes witha lot of work.
Jamaican Creole, were they toform the next government.
But officialization comes witha lot of work.
It comes with a lot of fundingbecause all the documentation
will have to be transcribedsigns, road sign, all of these
(31:04):
things.
But there is a model that isused and it is the model that
has been used to translate theNew Testament into Jamaican
Creole.
So for me it's not a fairconversation.
I know that more awarenessneeds to take place, but I often
(31:25):
hear it and you know people arelike oh, you're culpables for
officialization when you knowthere's no standard for Creole.
I was like there is a standardagain that is not widely known
but it needs to be known.
And because Patois has been anoral language for the most part,
where we spell it based on ourphonemic awareness, our own
(31:50):
phonetics, and just see thosevariations and people like,
which is why it's hard to read,especially in the codified
version, it's hard to read.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Let me tell you that Jamaican New Testament.
I was reading it and I said Iwould never spell this word this
way, but you know it was.
The good thing about it which Ilove about the Bible app
personally is that you can playand follow along with it, and so
(32:21):
that makes the comprehension orthe reading of it much better
and get familiar with the wordsand get familiar with the words.
But when we saw this, everybodyin the family because we were
sitting down and you know I wastelling my niece and my
brother-in-law that yo, yes,there's a New Testament I told
my coworker about it and then wehit play and it says I can't
(32:41):
remember 1 John.
I forget the old name, johnright, and the dramatization in
(33:03):
the Bible app, and just likereading along, everybody was
like.
You know, this is a version ofus in that space.
We're recognizing ourlimitations in reading it
because the way it was presentedin the app is not how, like you
said, we would phonetically,you know, write this word Like I
can't even tell you how muchword.
(33:24):
We say what.
Yeah, yeah I would if I wouldnever spell it this way if I was
spelling it.
So I think that comes back towhat I think a lot of people are
struggling with.
It's like how do I begin toread and understand this?
And of course, everything isnot well-funded to the point
(33:45):
where, oh, if I want tounderstand it, I can just follow
along and listen to the Bibleapp.
I feel like the next questionbecomes where do we Jamaicans
not just Jamaicans of Jamaica,but Jamaicans abroad where do we
(34:08):
go from here?
Because you know, like you said, it's been an oral language.
My grandmother passed away sowe would never be able to teach
her this new version, you know.
So where do we go from here?
And I know that the languageJamaican language.
We don't have time to worryabout that for a while.
(34:29):
But how do we get to a placewhere I want my kids to now be
fully bilingual so they can readand write and understand what's
going on?
Where do we go from here?
And then I want to switch tothe AI thing, Right?
Speaker 2 (34:42):
So the pilot programs have been done by the Jamaican
Language Unit and otherfaculties at the UA, loan for
sure, in primary schools, andthe results have shown that, you
know, students were able todistinguish between Jamaican and
(35:05):
English language.
So, again, funding is needed,capacity building is needed,
we're going to need moreteachers being familiarized with
the system that UWE has beenproposing.
But it also takes, you know, ashift in focus, because one of
(35:25):
the things that we struggle withas a people is like why we are
pushed part of, if we're noteven mouthful, english.
You always get that, you alwaysget that and part of it is not
going anywhere.
Because English is theinternational language of
communication and business andall the world.
And only to realize that youknow English is a very difficult
(35:50):
language.
It's a language that you know.
It has some weird rules, someweird patterns and, just like
any other language, it has gonethrough its processes to become
what it is today.
But it's sometimes difficult toargue with people who are
non-linguists or non-languageenthusiasts, because they're not
(36:14):
seeing it from our perspectivethat the linguists I mean my
colleagues they've done the work, they have done the work, but
there's not much appreciationfor the work because it's always
been an oral language andthey've tried to put a system in
place to codify.
(36:35):
You don't think it sounds likehow you would spell it, so you
can't accept it like there's somany things in english language
that we just work with.
Why is?
Why do we say preach, preached,but teach, taught or like one
sheep, two sheep, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Or read and read the same spelling.
You know, it's just.
You know a lot of things and II remember a few jobs ago I
worked with some colleagueswhere English wasn't their
native language and they said itwas just the most difficult
language to learn because, asyou said, pronunciation is
different.
Like I live in America and Ican tell where someone comes
(37:22):
from based on the way they speakand how they pronounce certain
words.
You know, go on social media.
Everybody says, not plantain,is plantain, right.
And I said, okay, let's use thesame structure.
Do you say mountain?
No, you say mountain, and youdon't say curtain, you say
curtain.
So you know why do we useplantain.
(37:44):
You know if you're using thator fountain, right.
So I think I love and appreciatelanguage even before I moved
here.
Like we all had to learn.
You know, in my generation, andI think even my mother's
generation when she went to highschool, miss Lou's poems right
and just, and I think maybethat's what I got growing up,
(38:09):
that I grew up in a time whenMiss Lou was still active and
visible and very, you know, avery staunch supporter or
representative of the languageand the beautiful way that she
would speak and perform in ourlanguage.
And I had and we all looked upto her right as an example, and
(38:31):
I think maybe that is notsomething that, even though
everybody upon social media wemaybe not have someone who feels
the same way about the languagethat she did and leave a mark
on a generation of people.
And then, and maybe also it'smy own personal experience with
how people react to me and theway that I speak, to say that If
(38:58):
you think that I'm lesseducated, that's your problem.
You know, not mine.
You know and you know just allthese perceptions and, living in
New York City and hearing thedifferent accents, do you think
someone who speaks with anItalian accent is less educated?
Like you hear Italian, I couldtell an Irish person accent,
(39:19):
especially if they come fromBoston you know, if someone is
from deep South, versus like itdoesn't commute, it doesn't, and
I don't know where that comesfrom.
I think that's a bigger issuewith the English language
generally.
But that's all.
We're going off into anotherend, but I'm loving this
conversation and there's a lot,so I'm going to jump to the AI
(39:40):
part where I feel like like,should I be worried?
To AI.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Before I get there.
I also want to point out thatyou know outside of the
education sector, like people inmedia, they have a huge
responsibility as well in orderto promote programs.
Have programs in Jamaican,because the more we hear it, I
think, the more we will have anappreciation for it.
(40:07):
So read the news in Jamaican.
And again I'm going back tonative language and
comprehension, because when youlisten to some people, how would
they interpret what was said onthe news?
You wonder if you and themlisten to the same news.
But if they were in if it wassaid, like you said, the patwa
(40:32):
version of the New Testament.
Now, as a religious person too,I read different versions of
the Bible and you haveappreciation for different
versions, whether it's a test,the NIV.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
I like NLT, but some things you can't read it in NLT.
You can only read the 23rdPsalm in KJV version because
it's on a certain way.
I think I like that examplebecause it's a perfect way.
Some verses in the Bible KJVdon't go with NIV or NLT because
you know it just sown out adifferent way, yeah yeah, and it
(41:10):
doesn't give you the message.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
You know some things and words very, very powerful,
and it's just why I tell mystudents all the time, and even
when in my columns, when I'mvery deliberate, I'm very
intentional with my word choice,because it sends the message
that I want it to send.
Now, when you read the NewTestament in Jamaican, you get
(41:33):
the imagery deeper than with theEnglish province, so the
story's not lost on you.
And again, when you get thatinner language that you
understand very well, it stayswith you much longer than in a
foreign language.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Listen, I'm reading the Bible in chronological order
.
I cannot wait to get to the NewTestament because I am reading
it all.
Jamaica, batua, which I don'tknow.
I guess the whole Testamentpart is going to take a while,
but I really appreciate it.
I'm really enjoying thislanguage.
You know this conversation onlanguage because, I mean, I'm
(42:15):
not a linguist, but when I tellyou I love my language and
culture, I love it.
So now let's get to the AI part, where we do a lot with the
worry about AI.
I taught Jamaican but evenbefore that I sent you the
(42:42):
article with the this woman.
She's in the UK.
They were hiring people to talkJamaican and then you have
people who are discussed thatthe language is not going away.
But we kind of feel away whenpeople who don't really come
from the language or speak thelanguage.
(43:02):
I did not say this, the BBCarticle did say this.
May I put that as a preference.
I'm not.
Nobody come for me.
The Jamaican language hasbecome a central part of the
linguistic fabric of Toronto.
If I were in Toronto I wouldsay Toronto, because that's how
they say it.
If I were in Toronto, I wouldsay Toronto, because that's how
they say it.
It's now widely spoken bypeople who have no ethnic or
(43:23):
heritage connection to Jamaica,most recently reignited by
Toronto, toronto, the TorontoRapa native Drake.
So we have two things wherepeople are, there's this aspect
(43:45):
of AI coming, and what does thismean?
Everybody go talk Patois andthis idea that it's ours and we
want to hold on to it and wewant to gatekeep it and guard it
.
So there's a lot that'shappening in there.
On one hand, we want togatekeep it nobody take it.
But on the other hand, there'sthis AI thing that potentially
could be helpful.
But, as I've seen, in this ageof technology enhancement, fly
(44:07):
the gate is not what's the word.
There's a danger in a fly thegate and let everybody come in
with it.
So what are your thoughts?
on that we're just going toleave it right.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
I'm very interesting question, um.
So, with the propagation of ai,which is not new, I remember
when chat gpt came up about innovember 2022, you know, a lot
of concerns were raised and Iremember I was one of the
(44:42):
columnists locally who said,listen, I'm in language
education.
We've always been usingartificial intelligence, we've
always been using GoogleTranslate and other things, so
it's really not new.
So I wasn't concerned about,you know, the threats, what the
future of education would looklike, and there have been so
(45:04):
many evolutions.
When cell phones came aboutmark, I think it did before I
came, you know, at sense, butthere are people were skeptical
about it as well, and it'sbecome a useful tool, and so I
think we have to look at thepositive side because, one again
(45:25):
, language is culture and a lotof people, for the longest while
, who are non-jamaicans, havewanted to understand what the
dancehall songs and the reggaesongs are saying, to understand
what the dancehall songs and thereggae songs are saying.
So now they can do thisindependently.
I remember one of my friendsfrom Mayotte, in one of those
(45:48):
African countries.
He was asking me what isSpice's song is saying.
You know, spice can be very youknow, know raunchy in some of
her lyrics and I'm like bro,what are you?
What kind of song you'relistening to?
Anyway, I told him what thesong meant.
(46:09):
So they're listening to thesesongs, they they look up to a
lot of our art in gizland.
So I think it now gives them aspace independently to be able
to research and get anunderstanding of what they're
intaking.
And I think when more peoplehave an appreciation for the
(46:33):
language, it's even greaterpotency for us to officialize
the language.
So you know, there are manybenefits to it.
One of the things that I foundstriking some years ago when
another petition was done toofficialize Jamaican, the
Jamaican language.
When you looked at those whosigned the petition, most of
(46:56):
them were non-Jamaican andnon-Jamaican linguists.
A lot of people who are, in mydiscipline, some reputable
linguists, calling for theofficialization of the Jamaican
language because they understandthe benefits and the agency
that come with knowing alanguage, and so you realize
(47:25):
that there's a lot more.
But many non-Jamaicansappreciate the language more
than those native speakers do,which is, you know, it is
contradictory.
So I feel like it's good thatwe have these platforms.
Google Translate does haveJamaican language as well.
(47:47):
Chachi PT now has Jamaicanlanguage.
So they are a risk of Titan, ofcourse, and I think, who knows,
very soon they may be used inthe custody model to do the
translations, and so it providesavenues because now that it
(48:11):
becomes, the standardized partis there.
It opens jobs, opportunitiesfor people.
So you will have official Patwatranslators and interpreters
who can do things and it helps.
I remember I was travelingrecently and this has happened a
(48:35):
lot during my job was where Ihad to interpret for people.
I was traveling to Mexicorecently and there was this
Asian maybe he was Chinese wasgoing to Denmark and he
understood barely anything inEnglish, much less to understand
anything in Spanish.
(48:56):
So I stood there at immigration, at customs, you know, just to
help him out.
So imagine being in a contextwhere the Jamaican language is
the language that is needed tobe used and you know whomever is
there is able to provide thatsort of agency to help somebody
(49:18):
else.
Speaker 1 (49:18):
So I think it's very useful and through that, those
media, those media to us asnative speakers, we learn more
about the language because wedon't know everything so I do
appreciate the idea of having atranslator, because my daughter
told a story like when she wasyounger and she was working at
(49:41):
one of like one of those chainrestaurants you sit down and eat
.
You know, this Jamaican ladyand her family was ordering and
her co-workers didn't understandwhat they wanted and so they
called my daughter, who she'snot a native speaker, she born
here but because she bilingual,because she live in the house,
she was able to translate andtake the lady other, because the
(50:03):
lady I talk she's like mommy,the lady so like she come from
kinston, which she would knowbecause, as her parents, I tell
her that I have an idea of whichpart of jamaica people come
from based on how they speak,and she translated that.
But also on a more, a moresomber note, like when my
grandmother, who lived inJamaica until like maybe 2003
(50:29):
fully, and then she had a strokeand at one point she had to go
into the hospital.
She was thriving and recoveringwhen and she wasn't in a place
where a lot of Jamaicans andWest Indians live right, she was
in the Midwest and so there arenot too many people who are
there but she was thriving whenthe person who was on her
(50:50):
rotation to take care of her wasJamaican and so she would be
able to understand.
And so I found that when shewas communicating with them,
they would not understand.
So what happened was shestopped talking, and because she
stopped talking, they took thatas a cue that she wasn't being
responsive.
And it wasn't the case, becausewhen I was there, when we had
(51:12):
to finally make the decision toput her on hospice care, this
doctor was telling me she's notresponsive.
I'm like I went in there and Iwas talking to her and she
respond, but because you allaren't understanding what she's
saying even though she's, she'stalking English.
You know cause?
My grandmother, you know shetalked English but there's a
slight accent there.
They weren't taking the time toone and my grandmother comes
(51:34):
from a generation where they'rekind of soft spokenspoken and
they're a different way.
And, you know, it would havebeen very helpful for someone
who would be able to understand.
And I play this in my headsometime I was like maybe if she
had the stroke in New Yorkshe'd have recovered fine,
because without put her in thehospital here, and even when it
(51:54):
wasn't like my mom and my unclescouldn't visit her, but the
nurses, the healthcareprofessions, are around her all
the time, right?
So you need someone who's ableto kind of understand, even you
know, for instance, mygrandmother typical grandma
language Boy I was handing outthe flyer and the guy didn't
(52:15):
take it.
I'ma feel cute, you know you,and I know what she means by she
feel cute.
Somebody else would be like whatare you talking about, right?
Or I had this experience andanother guest had this
experience where I was in highschool and, um, somebody was
offended by something that I didI'm a say, but me tell her and
(52:37):
the girl did by something that Idid.
And they said, but Metella Osh,and the girl did.
She was like she took it to be.
You know, be quiet, and that'snot what I meant.
Osh is our way of saying sorry.
And another guest came on theshow and said he, when he came
to go to college in Georgia andhe told somebody Osh, the girl
was about to ready to light himup and then he realized that, oh
(53:00):
, something is wrong.
And even more recently at work,I was sitting on a call and I
was talking to a colleague and Iwas like me feel like a donut.
And he looked at me like Idon't know.
And then I saw his face and Icorrected myself and I said I
feel like having a donut.
He was like oh, I wasn't sureif you physically felt like a
(53:24):
donut.
So I think there is a reallystrong argument for the
interpreters because, like yousaid, there's some things that
even with AI, there's contextsthat it may not be able to pick
up.
Like I feel like a donut, youknow.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Yeah, one of the disadvantages we've looked at in
language learning and the youknow absence of is, you know,
the cultural nuance that theselarge language models are not
able to pick up on, and soyou're going to need people to
do that for you.
And again, language providesagency and access.
(54:08):
Now imagine going into acontext you are not well, but
you speak Jamaican.
That's the only language you'reable to express whatever you're
going through, but your medicalpractitioner doesn't understand
.
It has implications.
You go into a court system andthat's one of the things we're
(54:29):
lobbying for in Jamaica as wellwhere you're speaking the king's
English and you want the clientto understand exactly what's
happening.
So we need to provide placeswhere the language can be used
so people leave with the correctunderstanding and
(54:52):
interpretation.
You use these melody and the,the jar, the legal jargon that
can become so cumbersome.
It's not helping the averageCreole-a-phone speaker.
Speaker 1 (55:07):
Creole-a-phone speaker.
I'm a Creole-a-phone speaker.
No, I know we could go on andon.
So when it comes to thediaspora, we talk about how the
language begins to evolvebecause you have Jamaican and
then you have New York languagespeak and all of this wrap up
and mix up.
What does that mean in terms oflinguistic terms?
(55:30):
Is it just the way in Spanishyou have?
You know, spanish from Spainversus Latin?
Is that where we are when itcomes to Jamaican language?
Speaker 2 (55:43):
Absolutely, it happens in every language.
It's what we callsociolinguistics.
So you look at the socialcontext attached to the language
, which is why people from StElizabeth have a particular type
of ator versus those from Moby,which you're from the West, you
know.
Speaker 1 (55:58):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (56:00):
And I think Moby uses they when day.
A person from kingston wouldnot use that.
So you can identify certainregions based on, you know,
these little inserts that theyuse and certain things that they
use to designate certainobjects as well.
(56:21):
It's like calling Dandesh onthe sight and sight.
Sightings or something like that.
So you could be in the samecountry with different parishes
and somebody says sightings andyou'll be like huh, what is that
?
Anybody used to speak sightingsin their primary school and
you're like what is that?
So you used to play sightingsin the primary school.
And you're like what is that?
So you start to explain it oh,Dandishandi, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:45):
Yeah, we call it sight on sight, you know I first
met your sight on sight, yeahsight on sight.
We call it At least mygeneration call my husband.
Right now, Dandishandi is likeno, this Dandishandi isn.
Right now, dandy Shandy is likeno, this Dandy Shandy.
Isn't that a drink?
You know, so you have.
You have some of that.
And even you know, in this agewe're in where you have pronouns
(57:09):
Jamaicans been using them youknow long time.
You know, so you know it's.
It's so interesting how we usethem to pluralize.
You know just different things.
Speaker 2 (57:22):
And him.
We talk about a female too.
Speaker 1 (57:24):
Yeah, yeah, or you know just the way.
That again, context and region,you know, you know somebody
will come from St Thomas, StElizabeth, Kingston, to
Elizabeth Kinston, Like, I think, Kinstonians, depending on
where you are.
In Kinston you speak almost in asing-songy type way if you come
(57:45):
from a certain part of Kinstonversus you know other people,
but it's this is what I loveabout our language, and that's
so fascinating, because ifyou're not from Jamaica, you
wouldn't even realize that theseare like nuances that happen on
the island itself.
And so I'm going to wrap it up,because I don't want to keep
(58:05):
you, although I feel like I needyou for something else, so let
me look.
So what's the one takeaway youwant people have when it comes
to?
You know the Jamaican language,language, justice, you know, in
terms of.
You know our language is foreveryone, and you know whether
(58:29):
you're poor or you're rich.
You know we need to make surethat, you know, the citizens of
our country are able torepresent themselves and speak
in a way that is familiar tothem and that be acceptable,
right?
It's not that they can't do it,it's just not acceptable in
some places, right?
(58:49):
And yeah, what's your words?
Because this is evolving, sothere's no final word.
So what's your thoughts as oftoday?
Because, you know, next week awhole different story.
Speaker 2 (59:00):
Yeah, all right Languages Agency.
And in a country like Jamaica,where the national language is
Jamaican Creole, the majority ofthe population speaks, why is
it not an official language one?
And we need to provide, youknow, avenue spaces where people
(59:22):
are able to express themselvesin their native language without
feeling like they're beingdiscriminated against or that
they're unintelligent becausethey do not speak the dominant
language, the language ofinstruction, the posh language,
which is English.
We should accommodate people.
(59:46):
We should accommodate peopleand it's one of the
conversations that I've raised,based on my recent research
articles how, as a person whoteaches English language,
academic literacy, how do wefacilitate that in our courses
as well?
And how do my colleagues thatteach English language across
(01:00:08):
the education system, how dothey feel about incorporating
Jamaican Creole in the educationsystem?
That's a conversation we needto have.
System.
That's a conversation we needto have.
We need to not see Jamaicanlanguage as bad English, because
it affects how people feelabout themselves.
(01:00:29):
I have had students who havetold me sir, I'm very, very
conscious when I have to speakstandard English, because they
don't want to make any mistakeand they don't want to come off
with an accent and that kind ofstuff.
But we need, at the same time,cruel is looked upon, as you
(01:00:50):
know, informal and uneducated.
So we need to strike a balance,because if you're going to be
fearful of speaking Englishbecause you don't want to make a
mistake and it's not yournative language, so why are we
not embracing our nativelanguage On a more international
scale?
I feel, with the continuousevolution of artificial
(01:01:13):
intelligence and technology ingeneral, it will provide scope
for people to access an agency.
The justice system needs to bemore accommodative.
I remember at UTEC we had alecture recently and it was a
(01:01:34):
lawyer who has a PhD inlinguistics.
So her background is veryinteresting.
So she looks at legal justicefrom a language perspective, a
linguistic perspective in theCaribbean, and so I raised some
of the points you know you'regoing to the court system.
Are we accommodating the averageCreole speaker in an English
(01:02:00):
court system?
Are we accommodating our nativeJamaican children in a language
that they understand?
And again, we just arepromoting bilingual education
because we see in the nationaland regional exams each year
that our students do not performwell in English language and in
(01:02:24):
mathematics too, and I feellike if they're taught in a
language that they understand,again, comprehend on them, it
could yield greater results.
So I want to commend mycolleagues, my cruel linguists
in Jamaica and the Caribbean andelsewhere, putting in the work.
I do my advocacy through forumslike this one and also through
(01:02:49):
my writings and research, sothat we can continue to elevate
the conversation.
But, most importantly, I feellike a lot of work needs to come
from governance, governance ofthe country, because if they
push it then we will reach, youknow, a greater level in terms
of what we want.
Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
Thank you for that.
That, I guess.
A question does the Jamaicanlanguage unit have a dictionary?
Because somebody said somethingthe other day.
Somebody sent me a joke and Isaid what really does bilious
mean?
I got it from the context, butit's almost like, where did this
(01:03:35):
word derive from?
Because if you look up ourEnglish language, it tells us
origin and all of that stuff.
Right, and it would be so coolfor us to have something similar
.
So I'm just curious if there'sany of that in the words there
is, so it's ongoing.
Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
I know Joseph Ferguson from the Jamaican
Language Unit.
He posts these words maybeweekly, at least a word, a
Jamaican word on LinkedIn.
So I know he and others areworking on a dictionary and,
(01:04:13):
interestingly, based on myrecollection, the dictionary
will have the Jamaican word,then it will have the
translationsican word, then itwill have the translations in
English and maybe French andSpanish.
Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
That's nice.
Speaker 2 (01:04:27):
We're getting to places.
We're getting to places, andthe language is so rich and
dynamic it's hard to keep upwith.
I know, because oursociolinguistics is very
colorful, it's like, and becauseyou know you have to content
with pop culture every day, soyou have to content with
(01:04:47):
dancehall music, reggae musicevery day, and everything.
Every new movement brings aboutnew terminologies that you have
to try to keep up with, so it'svery interesting and the other.
Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
So we have another show called reels and rhythms
and we were talking, we werereviewing rockers from the 70s
and we're, just likerastafarianism, brought a whole
nother level of words to what wekind of use, like instead of
understand is overstand.
You know, even the other day Iwas talking to my friend I don't
know if this is a thing and hesaid, kerry, you know, I don't
(01:05:25):
appreciate you, I appreciatelove you.
I was just like you know.
So you know it's, it's allthese ways that our culture is
dynamic, it's rich, it'sevolving and you know, I am so
grateful to have thisconversation.
I hope you come back and tellme whatever else is going on and
we can chat.
But I'll put where people canfind you in the show notes and
(01:05:48):
we're not going to be done,we're going at the show notes.
I'm going to ask some otherquestion and I might read what
Aunt Roachie say.
So, as I love to say at the endof every episode, walk good.
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