In this episode we discuss the stereotypes that Caribbean American women face in the workplace. Join us as we kick off with Deanna, a vibrant soca music party blogger, who dives into her experiences of how her Guyanese heritage often becomes a central topic at work. Contrastingly, Alysia, our returning guest, shares her decision to keep her West Indian background private in her predominantly white industry to avoid being exoticized. Together, we unravel how upbringing shapes the decision to share cultural identities, the pressures to conform, and the complex balance between personal and professional lives.
What do assumptions like "All Caribbean people are Jamaican" or "Caribbean women work slowly" reveal about workplace misconceptions? Through personal anecdotes and real-life experiences, we dissect these biases and the distinct perceptions faced by Caribbean-born individuals versus American-born individuals of Caribbean descent. Alysia sheds light on the different challenges each group encounters, emphasizing the importance of maintaining professional integrity while navigating these preconceptions. This episode is packed with insights on how cultural diversity influences workplace dynamics and the subtle ways Caribbean colleagues communicate and bond over shared heritage.
Whether you're a freelancer or navigating corporate America, embracing and expressing your cultural identity is crucial. We explore the importance of sharing traditions, fostering understanding among colleagues, and dealing with microaggressions. Hear practical advice for young Caribbean professionals on integrating their cultural heritage into their careers without compromising their true selves. From attending cultural events to explaining traditional meals, we highlight the value of open dialogue and the impact of being proud of one's roots. This conversation is essential for anyone looking to navigate the complexities of cultural identity in the workplace while staying true to who they are.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of
Carry.
On Friends the CaribbeanAmerican podcast.
I am Carrie-Anne and I have twoguests with me today, alicia
and Deanna, and I'll let themintroduce themselves in a second
.
But we are going to talk aboutworkplace shenanigans and we're
(00:26):
going to talk aboutmisconceptions about the
Caribbean American woman in theworkplace.
So let's throw it to Alisa.
Alisa, tell the people.
Alisa is not a stranger to theshow this is her third
appearance, but still so.
Let me just swing it to thenewbie, Deanna.
Deanna, introduce yourself tothe audience.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
So hello, my name is Deanna.
I'm also known as Dis Chick.
I am a silka music partyblogger.
So my coworkers actually knowthat I'm a party blogger.
So my West Indian-ness comes upa lot in the workplace,
especially on a Monday morningwhen they're asking me what I
did over the weekend.
(01:06):
So everyone at least in myworkplace knows, you know, I'm
of Guyanese descent.
I do go out a lot on theweekends, I do party, I do go to
carnivals, so it's aninteresting topic because this
comes up a lot for me.
So I'm happy to be joining theshow for the first time, not a
(01:27):
veteran like Alicia.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
That's all right, we'll make you a vet down the
road, alicia.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Hey, thank you for having me on again.
I love coming to visit you guys.
Hey guys, my name is Alicia.
I am also known as AliciaSimone.
My blog is Rewind and ComeAgain, where I talk about
Caribbean, american Caribbeandiaspora culture, and I'm happy
to join in.
My experience is a littledifferent from Deanna's.
Most people in my workplace donot know I am of West Asian
(01:56):
heritage until some event orsome subject brings it up.
And then, yeah, theconversation after that and the
attitudes after that are reallyinteresting once people find out
, so really excited to talkabout this.
I think this is a topic mostpeople don't really consider
discussing.
It's just something you livewith and work with, and so I'm
(02:18):
excited to delve in more into it.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
All right.
So, alisa, why haven't you told, or why don't people at your
job know that you're Western?
Is that a conscious decision orit's it just never came up?
You don't think that's anecessary thing to lead with?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
I think it's a.
I think it's a consciousdecision.
The way I was raised, my motherwas very when you're in school
or you're at work, you speakproperly, you speak the Queen's
English, and you behave acertain way and you don't, and
people can see you're Black,that's enough.
I mean, she didn't say thesethings outright, but in just the
(02:56):
way she grew me it was, it justbecame known that you don't one
.
You don't need to give it toomuch personal information and
then cultural information is notnecessary unless it's really
necessary to the task at hand.
You don't share that becauseyou'll only, probably will only
be a problem for you or give youdifficulties down the road or
or put eyes on you that are notnecessary.
(03:18):
So I never really, I don't evenreally think about it.
I just, you know, work.
Alicia is very American, veryjolly, and, and unless something
comes up where recently I'vegot some vacation plan, I'm
going to Guyana in May, and so Ihad to put in for that time and
it was, you know, a full twoweeks, and so, oh, my God, where
(03:40):
are you going for two weeks.
And then I'm like, oh geez,here we go and I'm like, well,
I'm going on vacation Reallywhen I'm going to South America,
south America, oh my God.
What's going on down there?
Well, my family's from Guyana,guyana, oh my God.
And it makes me uncomfortable todiscuss because I feel like I
become an exotic object becauseI work in a predominantly white
(04:04):
industry.
Exotic object because I work ina predominantly white industry.
Then I become a subject ofpeople want to ask all these,
tell me more about it, and is itlike Jamaica and white beaches?
And and then I don't want toexplain all that.
I don't want to be a cultural,I don't want to be national,
geographic, at the, at the, atthe office.
So I kind of leave it alone,unless it really is necessary to
discuss.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I got you.
I got you.
You know I'm, I'm, I'm sort ofin between.
But, like early in my career, Iliterally just went to work.
I walked in and I know majorhype really exaggerates it, but
none of us walks in, especiallyme, the Jamaican in the room,
and I was like, oh, many of themcarry me out of Jamaica and I'm
(04:45):
beat chest, I don't do that,none of us do that.
And as you know, like Aliciasays, you know old school
because our parents came to theUS in a time where it was
literally you blend in, youdon't try to make anyone hear
any hint of an accent.
So I get that.
(05:06):
You know going to work.
You know growing up we weretaught to compartmentalize.
So and I'm still having thatstruggle with certain people
because I think now in a modernday and millennials, you know
everything is kind of blurredand blended.
You know, growing up, you knowI grew up in Jamaica and then I
(05:27):
came here.
Everything was you had workfriends, you had school friends,
you had church friends and youknow none of them really mixed
unless they lived in yourcommunity or you lived in the
same church.
So uh, went to the same churchso you could live in the same
community, go to the same school, go to the same church or you
(05:47):
know a mixture of them, butotherwise there was just no
blending.
So I kind of took that sameapproach here and where I came
from never really came up onlike on, like you, alicia.
Something happens, you know andto be honest you don't want it.
You know and to be honest youdon't want it, and I mean it's a
(06:08):
reality.
If it comes up that I'mJamaican and you hear it in my
voice, then I'm upset and thenthat's just not a bad situation
to be, in.
When the accent comes out atwork, it's typically when you
know you're upset.
So that's my experience withthat, deanna.
You know your co-workers areall in it, and so how did that
(06:29):
come about this conversationthat they knew?
You know that you are a partyblogger, you're Guyanese.
How did that conversationhappen?
Speaker 3 (06:38):
You know what it's so interesting?
Because I actually have adifferent perception.
I actually do want to educate,you know, my coworkers, because
sometimes and I've been insituations where people have
said very ignorant things andyou know, without malice, they
just really didn't know.
Especially when I say Guyanaand they immediately assume
(06:59):
Ghana and that becomes theconversation.
And then when I say I'm a WestIndian and they're like oh,
you're Jamaican.
No, I really think geographyneeds to be stressed in school.
But I actually take that onmyself to really start talking
to them about West Indiannessand Caribbean Americans and just
(07:21):
experience, but music, culture,food.
I feel like it's important forme to to educate them so they
they don't say those stupidthings to me.
Um, my parents made it so thatit was.
It's a part of who I am and soI.
I actually don't reallycompartmentalize.
Um, blogging has, of course,just emphasize that, because I
(07:43):
want people to know about allthe festivities and the music
and the culture.
But it's also I take pride inthat, and so I want to share
that.
I want to tell people, and soI've actually met people at work
who are like oh yeah, I have afriend who's Guyanese and she
never tells me anything about it.
Or I have a friend who'sTrinidadian, and what's the food
like?
And so they end up actuallyasking me questions because they
(08:10):
want to know, but they'reafraid to ask.
Right, they don't want to comeoff sounding ignorant, they
don't want to impose themselves.
There's a lot of guilt withsaying things to your coworkers.
You're not sure how people aregoing to take it, you don't want
to offend.
So I think for me I createsomething like a safe space.
You can ask me those questions,because I don't want you to go
to the next person and saysomething ignorant.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
so let's talk about it sorry, I didn't mean to cut
you off, you know.
You know what I noticed?
All three of us are kind oftalking like are we the only
West Indian in the workplace?
Is that, like, true for you orboth of you?
Speaker 2 (08:42):
no, not at all.
It's a Trini girl at my job, sothe trini girl, don't let
anybody know, she's trini no, itjust uh, no when it comes up.
You know what happens every day.
Also, I noticed there's amailroom guy who's jamaican and
he comes up by and that's whenwe like both turn on because
he'll come in and we're all like, hey, did you do?
(09:05):
You know where the spreadsheetis and when is the next meeting?
And then he'll come by and he'slike hey, girl, what's going on
?
And then we immediately likehey, what's going on?
And she, I think, is more likeDeanna, where she's got a more
like I don't care, this is me,even though in her daily you
can't tell because she doesn'thave an accent.
Like I don't care, this is me,even though in her daily you
(09:26):
can't tell because she doesn'thave an accent.
Um, you can't really tell, butshe immediately turns on when he
starts.
We start, all three of us starttalking and she doesn't care
what people think.
She, you know she's the personwho doesn't care what people
think.
So we live, we work in an openenvironment, so anything,
anytime you open your mouth,everyone can hear you.
Yeah, so, yeah.
So everyone's head starts toturn when we talk.
And this may be my own personalhang up that I need to get over
(09:48):
more than thinking about it now.
I she immediately starts whensomeone going on and starts
talking, and I do the same.
But then I'm I'm conscious ofpeople perking up and like, oh,
I never heard them talk likethis before.
What does that word mean?
I can see it and I feel, feelself-conscious and I I realized
I started to almost whisper and,or you know, try to move us
(10:11):
into another location, so we'renot so close to people.
So I think that's something Ineed to think about.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Is that that self-consciousness is probably
you know your mom and you knowwhat she's told you like in the
back of your mind, because forthem it was really very, very
serious.
There's not one person in yourmom's generation you know that
came up and they really it was.
(10:37):
They've had repercussions aboutbeing too West Indian and you
know so.
So there's some history thereand because she's drilled it
into you so much, you are almostlike this thing, like I don't
want people to know and call toomuch attention to yourself.
So that's probably what it is,but something to explore further
.
Deanna, how about you?
Are there other West Indians onthe job?
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yes, they are, and you know they also are of the
mindset of.
You know I'll speak to otherWest Indians and tell them about
.
You know I'm going home forcarnival or you know I'm
visiting family or something ishappening.
But they don't really sharethat in the workplace because
it's not really seen asprofessional.
And of course you don't wantpeople who are in your workspace
to be in your life space, right?
(11:21):
You don't want them to know toomuch about what you do when you
leave at five o'clock.
So I respect that.
I definitely respect that.
I'm the complete opposite.
I let people know.
Yeah, I have to leave because Ihave to catch a flight to
Toronto for Caravana.
Yeah, I have to go because I'mdoing this thing or I'm heading
to this event.
So for me it's very different,but I definitely do connect with
(11:43):
.
There's a Guyanese woman,there's a Trinidadian woman,
there are two Jamaican men andwe have that kind of like Alicia
, that little in crowd where youspeak a certain way.
But for me, I feel, because Iwas not born in Guyana, when I
tried to put on a Guyaneseaccent I don't feel authentic at
all.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
I feel like.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
I am faking this completely.
I don't feel authentic at all.
I feel like I am faking thiscompletely.
So I don't do it like that.
But I definitely realize, youknow, we relax a little bit more
, we speak a little bit moreopenly because you feel like
these people can understand whenyou have family obligations or
you have things that you need todo, or you feel like you know,
going down the road and gettingsome jerk chicken or getting
some curry why are there nocurry spots in Midtown, Like we
(12:25):
have those kinds ofconversations and we share.
But I definitely get why people, you know, create that barrier
between their personal space andtheir workspace.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, I definitely create that barrier.
I remember I worked in thelegal industry for a long time
and I remember, you know, I wasone of one of the partners or
the attorneys that I workedclosely with.
(12:59):
She was you know, we were havinga conversation and it goes back
to the compartmentalization.
So I was like man, I don't haveany clothes or something.
And I said, oh, but she saidyou just bought clothes the
other day.
You went shopping.
I'm like no, those are goingout clothes.
I'm like it's, it's a WestIndian thing.
It's go.
You know, you don't wear theclothes that you buy for party
to work.
You just don't do that.
And and then she's how it evencame up that I'm West Indian.
She was like, oh, you know, Iwent to a Jamaican shop and the
right I bought the rice and thebeans and there's a distinct
(13:21):
taste.
I'm like it's the coconuts.
She's like how do you know thatI'm Jamaican?
So it's like having those, likeyou know, like those
opportunities.
And that only came out becauseworking in the law firm there
are a lot of late nights, soit's kind of one-on-one.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
And.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
I, I, I felt comfortable having this
conversation with her becauseyou know, she was a lot like me.
She kept to herself, there wasno, you know, crossing over and
like each other's personal spaceand personal life.
But for the most part I justkind of navigate and if people
are Jamaican, I don't kind ofsay anything or hear them
talking, I just listen.
Because, you know, honestly, Iwant to hear somebody's going to
(13:59):
say something about me in Patuaand don't say anything.
Know, if I keep talking thequeen's english and nobody is
none the wiser because I cancode switch better than anybody.
So, you know, if I keep quiet,I want to hear if somebody goes
to that girl over there.
So, like, I want to hear if I'mgonna talk about me, um, but um
(14:20):
, I think there was one job thatI went to that there was so
many West Indians, particularlyGuyanese.
It was just like I've never beenat a job where there was so.
And then, you know, it was tothe point where you know it
would walk down the hallway andeverybody was like walk on.
Everybody's like, yeah, youknow, and everybody's like like
literally Trinis, guyanese,haitians, you know, bajans.
(14:43):
I was like I've never seen likeso many in one place Did you
like that.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
That must feel so like comfortable, or maybe not,
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Um, we worked in different departments, so it was
.
It made it a little.
It was different because youknow you didn't always interact.
So the only times we really didinteract because if someone's
in the billing department andyou're the only person, you'll
walk past yes, I walk on and I'msaying oh, and it'll keep
working but like when they hadlike the monthly birthday
(15:13):
celebrations or something likethis, everybody's like hey, or
usually like when something hashappened.
So, um, particularly when therewas like track and field events,
some sporting events, that'skind of where the big
conversations happened.
Otherwise we kind of dispersedand kind of went about our
business because at the sametime, like Deanna said, it's not
(15:33):
quite professional and we'reaware of that, but we do turn on
and light up when we are aroundeach other, especially if
something significant ishappening in the community or
has happened in the community.
Especially if somethingsignificant is happening in the
community or has happened in thecommunity, you know somebody
walk up like yo, you're here,about so-and-so, it's like.
So it was, it was cool.
But we still kind of knew whento kind of you know if.
(15:55):
If you know back away, if youknow you're around your team,
you're kind of do the WestIndian communication, your
points with the lip.
You know the head nod, youwatch the eye and if you watch
the eye you see the Hannah movea little bit the finger, like
that type of thing.
So I did enjoy that.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
But where where.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
I currently work, I'm the I'm the only Jamaican, so
and the West Indian.
So we kind of talked aboutlet's get into like
misconceptions are pretty muchstereotypes, right?
Deanna kind of mentioned onethe minute.
She said she's West Indian orfrom the Caribbean.
Default Jamaican, right.
So that's like a misconceptionthat people have about every
(16:42):
West Indian or Caribbean person.
They're from Jamaica and that'sa whole different conversation
as to why people do that andthat probably could take up this
call.
But what do you feel?
I'll throw it to you, aliciawhat do you feel is a
misconception that people havewhen they find out that you're
West Indian, caribbean we usethat term interchangeably for
(17:03):
the audience when they find outthat you're a West Indian or
Caribbean woman?
Speaker 2 (17:10):
You know one thing that I think it kind of depends,
and this is why I brought up,before we got on air, I brought
up that I think there is adifference between if you walk
into the workplace and presentas someone who was born and
raised in the Caribbean versusan American of Caribbean descent
, because from what I've seenfrom my experience, versus my
(17:36):
friends who are raised in theCaribbean and come here and work
as older adults, I feel likethey have a harder time.
They are perceived as notinitially at least.
They don't know, they won'tunderstand what proper business
(17:58):
protocols are, proper businessstandards.
American business standards arethe standard, the industry
standard.
Then they clearly, whereverthey came from, they probably
don't do it the way we do it andthe way they do it is probably
subpar.
So from the stories I've heard,I feel like immigrants in
(18:21):
general, caribbean immigrants inparticular, are initially
perceived as well.
We're going to have to get youup to pace because however you
did it in your home islandprobably isn't the correct way
or the industry standard way.
And then they're.
You know, they quickly learn.
Just because I have an accentand was born somewhere else
doesn't mean I don't know whatI'm doing, but I think that's an
(18:44):
initial reaction as opposed to,like my experience as someone
of Caribbean descent.
I don't present initially asCaribbean.
You wouldn't guess that justfrom your initial interaction
with me I wouldn't get that samepreconceived notion.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
How about you, Deanna ?
Speaker 3 (19:11):
that same preconceived notion.
How about you, deanna?
For me, it's usually and I'veseen this with other people who
definitely have the accent, orit's very clear that they have
either just come to the countryor they've been here a very
short period of time.
There's this misconception thatthey're going to take forever
to get something done, and I'veheard people say that like, oh,
if you give it to her, you knowit's going to take an extra,
(19:34):
however many days, you know, butshe's from the Caribbean where
everything is slower.
Wow, and it wasn't true.
She just got to the job.
Somebody actually said thatSomeone actually said that.
Of course it's in, you knowknow, the copy room, so other
people can't hear.
And again, since I also, likealicia, don't really present as
west indian I don't have anaccent or anything they felt
(19:55):
comfortable saying this in frontof me and it was based on
nothing at all.
She had just gotten to the job.
But they're like, oh, you knowhow it is in the islands, they
like to take their time withthings.
So just make sure you stress toher that we need this quickly.
And it was so rude and ofcourse I had to speak on it.
Um, but it was just immediately.
That was the reaction.
(20:16):
She's from the Caribbean, she'sgoing to take a long time to do
something because apparentlytime is is not part of her.
You know she's, it's just notgoing to be a priority for her.
She likes to do things a littlebit slower.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, that's interesting.
So, um a misconception,inferiority in terms of you know
, um work, um deliverables andspeed, you know, like it's okay.
Um, all right, so I have onefor you.
That happened recently.
Um, I don't remember how iteven came up that I'm jamaican I
(20:53):
don't remember, but it came upand um person's like I don't
like jamaicans.
I went to jamaica and they wereall mean and blah, blah blah
and I'm like, okay, you know,that's their experience.
I can't say no one was mean toyou because, let's face it
Everybody talks about theCaribbean woman in the Jamaican
(21:14):
store shop restaurant whorefused to give me extra gravy.
So you know, let's be real,there are some mean people out
there.
And then they asked me if I'veever smoked weed and I was like
nope never I was like no.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Jamaican and never smoked weed.
I'm like.
I'm like, uh, I don't know like, why would you assume that
everybody in jamaica smokes weed?
Because you guys have it likeit's, you know, I was just like
all right, and they were likeand so this other person was
like never.
I'm like never.
I don't have to lie, it's likethey didn't believe you I'm
(21:53):
looking like no, my mom, andnobody's looking over my
shoulder.
I've never smoked weed, it'sjust so it's.
It's.
It's like why would you justdefault to that?
You know, I mean, I, if, if, Imean if you're a rastafarian,
it's like okay, you know, theyassume, but I'm like why would
you?
Assume that and um it was.
(22:15):
I didn't even think I needed to.
You know, I kind of said, well,would you?
Would you?
If someone said they were fromcolumbia, would you
automatically assume thatthey've had experience with
cocaine?
you, you know it's, it's likeit's, it's, it was.
It was just a weird and and wewere in a, a, a place where
(22:35):
there was a going away party forsomeone, and I was just like,
all right, you know, maybe theyhad a little too much to drink,
because I didn't feel likegetting into it, but you know I
had that.
So, but specifically though, asa Caribbean woman, like what are
some?
You know, stereotypes, Like, Ithink, for me, um, I remember at
(22:55):
an old job, you know, like, asyou know, we, we tend to have
that reputation.
Like some of us, we don't smilewith you.
I mean I don't, I'm not smilingall the time and, quite frankly
, if I look like I have aserious face which I'm told I
have most of the time it hasnothing to do with you.
They tend to be a little bitmore serious and the American
(23:33):
workplace tends to value, youknow, more social, social
ability as opposed to you knowthis, you know this arm's length
approach that we have, which iskind of what we were brought up
on.
So I think that's particularsomething to me that I've
experienced, that I'm a meanJamaican woman.
I'm like I'm not mean.
(23:54):
I just don't have anything tosay to you.
If I need to speak to you, I'llspeak to you, and if I'm upset
with you, you're going to knowthat I'm upset with you.
But it's part of the Americancultural workplace, as opposed
to how we were brought up.
What are other misconceptionsyou've had, deanna?
(24:14):
Were you partying?
I'm sure they have a lot of.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
I can't believe you live that life and they even
know it Like I wouldn't.
I would not have patience foranybody's mouth on Monday
morning.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Right, I feel like my .
My weekend like, though, letsme deal with all of the things I
have to deal with throughoutthe week, because I mean you
guys have seen some of my poststhat there are so many, so many
random issues that I have beinga woman in the workplace, being
a black woman in the workplace,being a Caribbean woman in the
workplace in the workplace,being a black woman in the
workplace, being a Caribbeanwoman in the workplace, and
(24:49):
there's so much that you almosthave to explain yourself before
you can even just be yourselfthere.
So there's definitely, you know, carrie and I hear you with the
social aspect, and I've seen itactually hurt other people,
other Caribbean women, becausethey're not, you know, going
into the kitchen and it'ssomebody's birthday, and blah,
(25:10):
blah, blah, and, of course, Imean even myself.
I don't have a lot of patiencefor that.
Like I want to.
I want to get back to work.
I don't really need to stayhere and celebrate Carol's
birthday for an hour, um, but ittends to hurt, hurt us, because
it's seen as oh, you'reantisocial, you don't want to
(25:33):
participate, you're not a teamplayer, when the truth is, we've
we've been taught that we justyou'll be promoted on your merit
and your work ethic and that'snot really the case anymore.
People want personality, theywant to be able to socialize,
they want to be able to hang outwith you, because the further
up you get in the lap in the um,the corporation, they're going
to have to interact with youmore often.
So they're looking for thosepersonal connections and we're
not really taught to expose thatside of us.
So that's part of the reasonwhy I'm very conscious about
(25:55):
letting people know what I dooutside of work.
And I've had, you know, higherups come to me and oh, how was
your weekend?
They're just waiting for thescoop.
So what'd you do?
Where'd you go?
What was this party?
What was that?
So it actually can help to be alittle bit more social.
Not that you need to tell themeverything about your business,
but it can help to be a littlebit more social and a little bit
(26:16):
more open.
And it really goes against howwe're taught to behave in a
workplace.
But yeah, I see it constantlywith that.
But what I usually get is youknow, carrie Ann, you don't have
locks, I have locks.
So of course I'm the weedperson.
They come to me and ask mewhere they can get it or do I
(26:39):
know?
anyone Exactly, and when I'mlike I have no connection for
you.
I don't smoke weed.
I don't know anybody who canget you weed.
I'm sorry, you almost see themicroaggression like wait, but
you're West Indian and you havelocks.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
What do?
Speaker 3 (26:56):
you mean, you're my weed connection, you're my go-to
.
So definitely having to explainthat Having locks in the
workplace is also a differentchallenge.
It's not so much a barrieranymore for getting promoted or
getting hired, but it definitelydoes come with its own set of
misconceptions, and especiallyyour West Indian woman with
locks there's there's a lot thatthey assume immediately.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
You know, um, deanna, what you said about the the
whole you know, meritocracy orview.
That's the reason why I startedCarry On Friends, because I
that in 2013, I was in a placewhere this one attorney she's a
fresh associate and you knowshe's there, you know she's
(27:40):
social with the paralegals andI'm their manager.
And you know, basically,because you know I wasn't really
, you know, I'm about work, I'mnot going to laugh with you and
kiki and all that good stuff.
And she encouraged some ofthose paralegals to be
insubordinate and she wentaround telling out of my mouth.
(28:07):
So I know, whatever I tell you,I tell you for your
professional interest, bestinterest and for my best
interest, because I was hired todo this job and it was at that
point.
There was a turning point,because you know, I'm not a
rainmaker and I felt like theactions there eventually led to
me losing that job because itwas them against me.
(28:29):
It was me, you know, notplaying their game, it was me
not laughing.
I'm like I really I reallydon't, I really don't care what
you do, especially since I knewthat she was like one of those
who was like gunning for me tolose my job.
That's when she got the screwface and the serious face.
And that's when she was likegunning for me to lose my job,
that's when she got the screwface and the serious face and
(28:50):
that's when she was like, yousee, and I and I and I reported
it a couple of times, but thoseare like some issues and that's
essentially why I started thisplatform is like you got to play
their game, and the challengefor us is like we don't want to
play their game, like we will,will tell you.
And this is why those majorhype skits are really funny,
because we really want to tellyou what he said, but we know we
(29:12):
can't tell you what he's saying.
You know, you know we can'tlook at you.
You know, you know we I mean,some people do it because I've,
I've heard stories of people whoworked with other west indians
and the those stories of thosewest indians going off is like
oh wow, he did that man, but youknow in my work.
Did he have to die later?
(29:33):
So I mean, but that is aserious issue.
I've been to like I remember wewere at like a Caribbean
American Heritage Day panel andyou know people said that they
got fired.
People are getting firedbecause this adjustment to how
we socialize.
(29:53):
So you know, especially so nowthat people know you're west
indian you've been spoken to acouple times you're a black
woman, you're a minority, youhave all these issues and so you
know you not laughing with theoffice and going out every time
the office has drinks.
I'm not a drinker and I tellthem that.
And when we go out, I drinkShirley Temples and they're like
what I'm like?
(30:13):
Listen, I'm here, I'm here.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
And I like.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Shirley Temples, and that's it.
You know, it's almost like youneed to conform and do things
the way they do and we are likeI want to go home, and things
the way they do and we are likeI want to go home and I have
like people at home and I'mtired.
But it's people take it reallypersonal?
Speaker 2 (30:35):
yes, they do.
Yeah, take it when you don't umtake part in office culture,
and that took a long time for meto get used to, um.
But and as a West Indian woman,I still am on my p's and q's
when I do take part in officeculture.
So, like at my office onThursdays, they have like a cafe
in the building and we have ahappy hour after at five, like
(30:56):
five to seven, and at first Iwould never go.
And they were like, at leastyou're going upstairs.
I'm like I'm good, I'm justgoing to finish this up and go
home.
And then the Trini girl actuallycame to me and was like why you
don't ever go upstairs?
And I'm like, well, I don't,these are my friends, I'm here
for some money.
Why would I laugh and joke withthese folks over wine or
whatever?
(31:16):
And she's the one who was like,listen, you need to come
upstairs every now and then.
You don't have to come everyThursday, but you need to come,
say, for 20 minutes, drink alittle half a glass, giggle and
laugh at their jokes and thenyou can go home.
But, trust me, people arewatching you do good work, but
this is part of it.
And I was like okay, and so Istarted doing that.
(31:37):
But even while I'm up there, Istill feel like, you know, I
need to be on my guard.
You know I'll drink half aglass, I'll laugh and I joke,
but I'm still, like you know, onmy guard.
But I do have to take part andthat's something that's really
hard.
Um, I think for for westindians to to get, get and get
in gear with yeah, because wewere taught, like you know.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
I mean I like fiat and you know, it's this thing,
but um all right.
So so far, let's recap what themisconceptions are.
She has friends, but we'recultured not to have friends at
work.
We love our job and we workhard, but our personality will
shine only in the rightenvironment, and usually that's
(32:21):
a challenge.
If we don't talk, it's for alot of reasons.
It's not because we hate youthat could be it but it's
usually not so.
The other thing is success andhard work is cultured into our
every fiber.
Now, this I want to touch on,because success and hard work
goes two different ways, right?
(32:41):
So I've had the benefit ofreally getting far in my career
because people recognize that Iworked very hard and they were
like all right, let's go hook.
They hook their arm in mine andthey like pull me along.
But some other people, boy,they see that hard work and they
start competing with you.
And then that's when all theother things that we talk about
(33:03):
coming to place, the, the, thesabotage and, you know, going
behind people's back, and whenthat happens the true culture of
like, that's when more theaggression comes out from a west
indian perspective.
So it kind of exacerbates theproblem.
I don't know what.
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (33:20):
I think that's interesting.
Um, I think, as caribbean women, we really don't play the
politics at work yeah, we don't,um, and you know I think we
need to, we definitely need to.
We're missing out.
That's part of corporate life,right?
You have to play the game, youhave to play the politics.
And you know we really aretaught that just work hard and
(33:43):
you'll succeed.
Just keep working hard.
If you didn't get thatpromotion, it's because you
didn't work hard enough.
So we work harder and we don'trealize it could be politics,
it's, it could be right and wedon't engage in that and I think
we, we definitely are missingout.
I did.
it's a disservice to us I didn'tright now I do yeah, because
and it doesn't always have to belike backstabbing- it's just
(34:05):
you have to be aware of who'smaking certain moves, the power
players, who's cozying up withdifferent people.
Exactly, really, it's a game ofsurvivor, yeah, and we don't
play the game.
We are just conditioned to workhard and keep working hard and
that will equal success.
And that's not really trueanymore.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yes and um so uh, we.
I did a workshop called um yourCaribbean competitive advantage
and one of the things that Ikeep saying we cannot bring
soccer rules to an NFL game.
You know, we have whatever rulesthey have there, we have to
play in their rules, we have toplay those positions and, like
(34:43):
you said, no, we don't have tolie and backstab, but we know
that every morning.
You know, you know that, youknow it's part of the culture
there to nod and you know yak itup a little bit and do you kind
of have to do that.
You got to observe who are thepower players, who who's what,
who's this, and you know.
One of the other things that Ihad to learn was like saying,
(35:04):
hey, I did this, I did a goodjob, like culturally, and most
immigrants are not comfortablekind of tooting their horn about
what they've done and that haskilled us in so many ways, and I
have to learn to kind of start,you know, kind of saying hey I
did this job and it feels weird,kind of saying look at me, I
did a good job.
But essentially you kind of haveto do that because if you don't
(35:26):
say it, someone else is goingto take that credit.
So I had to learn that and it'sstill kind of hard to do that.
Bring that attention to myselfbecause I've been cultured not
to bring that attention tomyself.
Forget that.
I'm doing this podcast becauseclearly that's bringing
attention to myself.
But you kind of grew up knowingyou know be seen and not heard,
and you know you kind of takethat behavior into the workplace
(35:50):
.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
You'll be recognized in time for as long if you work
hard, someone will recognize youwhen and you'll get your credit
to do, but to to put your putyour hand up and um like at at
my job.
I'm a long-term freelancer andso now it's all been almost a
year and now everyone keepscoming to me like are they gonna
going to bring you on full time?
(36:11):
What's going on?
Why is this taking so long?
And one guy in particular waslike why don't you go talk to
them, Go to HR, go to the headwoman and be like I want to be
full time, Let them know.
And I was like why would I dothat?
I was like no, I was like ifthey want me full time, they can
offer One.
(36:40):
I don't know if I want to befull-time, but if they wanted me
they would let me know whywould I go and you know, put my,
you know, stick my head up, ifnot necessary, to yourself.
Yeah, yeah, they know what workI'm doing.
They see me here, yeah, and hedidn't get it.
He was like, okay, and, and youknow I like war at myself with
these types of things because mynature is to, you know, fold
into the back when this officeculture is so opposite that.
So you know that that'ssomething that's been coming up
(37:02):
a lot recently.
Everyone's like why don't yougo talk to them about that?
And I'm like, no, leave mealone.
Can I bring up one small?
It's in regards to everythingwe've talked about.
This is very small and reallynot that important.
But something that reallyirritates me is that you know, I
try to save money at times andbring lunch from home.
(37:23):
Oh boy, insane is when people,oh, my god, what is that?
Is that curry, what?
Or, if it's not, if it's not arecognizably west indian dish
that every american knows like acurry or something.
If it's, I brought leftoverpepper pot or something like
that and oh, what's that?
(37:43):
And everyone's in my bowl andthey want to know and they're
gonna struggle and I'm likereally, really, it's called
pepper pot.
It was made this like can I eat?
It's getting cold now, can Ieat like those?
Those are the, those are thethings that that's a small thing
, but that's something that's abig thing there's?
Speaker 3 (38:00):
I don't think there's , but I think everybody just
went.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Oh yeah, you all know what that's like, but do you
encourage them like?
Speaker 3 (38:07):
well, maybe not encourage them, but when they do
come to you and start askingyou, are you open to talk?
Or is it more like I don'treally want to have to educate
you about my food?
I just want to sit here and eatin peace, and maybe you're not
eating with other people.
Even Is it like they'reimposing?
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Over time it depends my mood.
I can get real standoffishsometimes and want my personal
space, but over time I've becomea little more open.
Um, what most recently happened, which I thought was hilarious,
was that, um, you guys knowthat I'm going to guyana in may
for this film festival, and noone really.
(38:45):
I just put in I'm taking thisvacation.
Um, and everyone thought it wasjust like a family thing.
And then we as a department hadlunch and this girl was started
talking.
She's like, yeah, I'm reallyinto film and this and that.
And I was, and I was like Imust have had something to drink
.
So I was like, yeah, girl, doyou know I'll do this?
And I'm having a film workshopin diana.
And she's like, oh, wow.
(39:05):
And she's like, oh, she'salmost ready to book her ticket
to come this.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Let her book her ticket.
The film festival needs herparticipation.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Right, right but it was shocking.
She's this blonde hair,blue-eyed, you know like super
becky girl who she's mad, cool,but like I couldn't, I again
like warn with myself, like Ican't believe I'm having this
conversation and now open andthen that's so.
Now she's asking me even morequestions about Diana and I'm
(39:33):
sharing all this informationwith her and I'm like, oh, this
is a new level for me.
Wow, I don't feel weird.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
It almost seems like you're letting your guard down.
Deanna, what would you say to ayoung Caribbean lineal going
into work and you know having todeal with microaggressions and
are not used to that?
Speaker 3 (39:53):
into work and you know having to deal with
microaggressions and are notused to that.
Wow, that's.
That's going to be a challenge,because I think it depends so
much on how much of your, yourcultural heritage is part of
your day to day, right?
Like, how much of that do youbring to the workplace?
Are you comfortable sharingthat about yourself?
And you don't necessarily needto start off with, hey, I'm, I'm
, you know, jamaican, I'mGuyanese, I'm Trinanian, let's
(40:16):
all talk about it.
But it's more of just being opento socializing at all in the
workplace, being open to reallyseeing other people as just just
like you.
You know, you can feel safesaying things about yourself,
encouraging them to haveconversations with you, opening
yourself up, maybe not being soresistant to their questions,
(40:37):
because they just don't knowRight, and for so long we
haven't said anything Right,like we don't tell them that
we're West Indian, we don't sayanything about our culture, we
don't say anything about ourhistory.
So they really have no frame ofreference.
So they're coming withquestions.
But I do think it's importantto to accept it as part of who
you are.
Right, if you're a woman, you'rea woman.
(40:57):
You can't hide that when you gointo the workplace and you
accept that things are going tohappen to you or you know you're
going to get a certain reactionbecause of it.
It's the same as when you'reWest Indian you know things are
going to happen, things aregoing to arise because of it and
just being comfortable inyourself, knowing that this is
part of who you are, these arethe challenges you're going to
(41:18):
face and being ready to toengage with people and have
those discussions.
But as far as the socializing,actually, I actually do have
someone who came to Carabanawith me and was a coworker and
had never heard of the carnivalat all.
Yeah, she's a Taiwanese,american.
Um, she saw what I was doingwith the blog.
(41:41):
She was very interested and shecame and played a mass.
And now every year I'm notkidding every year when are we
going?
Speaker 2 (41:48):
when are we going to Caravana?
When are we going to Toronto?
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Um.
So you'd be surprised how muchthat just exposing yourself like
that can actually help youbuild friendships, can actually
get more acceptance.
People start understanding.
Um, I know another co-workerwho she actually had to go away
for bereavement is very short inmy company and she had to go
for a while because she wasstaying for the nine nights that
you know know the nine nightsare really.
(42:13):
Yeah, it's well, she's 90, aswe also do, oh you guys do nine
nights too, right.
Yeah, yeah.
So she was trying to figure outhow do I explain to them that I
need leave for this wholeperiod of time, and she was
really struggling with.
Do I even tell them why?
And do I have to explain it?
And I'm like you.
You, this is part of who youare.
You have to tell them becauseyou need this time and they need
(42:36):
to know that.
So things like that, where youjust kind of have to be like
this is part of who I am Rightand you have to engage with
people and you have to letpeople know about it, because
you also want to be comfortableto do things for yourself as
well.
So I would, I would say, justbe more open.
It's not a crutch, it's not abad thing to be West Indian.
(42:56):
So be proud of it and letpeople know All right.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
So before I go back to Alicia, since you brought it
up, deanna, let's just you know,for whoever is listening who
may not be familiar.
You know kind of explain whatthe nine nights are, even though
growing up I thought it wasnine, as in night.
You know, like, how the Britishuse nine nine nights.
I'm like what's nine, but it's,it's nine nights and just kind
(43:21):
of explain.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
Nine nights, yeah, it's part of, yeah, it's part of
the grieving and the funerarytraditions in the Caribbean and
the West Indies, where you spendthis time really grieving the
person who's lost.
But at the end of the ninenights you celebrate the life
because that person is no longersuffering, that person is in a
better place.
It's a celebration of thatperson's life and so for quite a
(43:46):
few people they do the entiretime In the workplace.
It's kind of hard to ask forthat whole period of time off.
Maybe people have to travel onthe ninth night, you know, for
the ninth night, um, but it's,it's part of the.
The grieving is part of thefuneral, part of the, the
bereavement.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
For west indians, although I don't feel.
I feel like they're, you know,for a period of time, I feel
like there, you know, for aperiod of time, I feel like
there's party all nine nights,and not just nine nights.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
I mean, we are still West Indian, right, Let me tell
you but that's a whole other.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
I think that's like really like a cultural
experience, like nothing.
I don't we have to talk abouthow Guyanese do it, but how the
Jamaicans do it with the greaterand and all this other stuff.
So now, alicia, the samequestion how would you advise
someone you know about beingthemselves, or you know how to
(44:41):
kind of navigate the workplaceand not dimming their, not
necessarily blowing it up?
Like you know, Muhammad Ali,the champ is here.
You're not announcing thetreaty is here, you know but
like how do you?
Speaker 3 (44:55):
kind of.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
I actually kind of have these conversations now
because my kids are older,they're 18 and 19 and have had
summer jobs or internships.
So I'm now in the role mymother was in, and so I'm trying
(45:20):
to figure out how what I'mgoing to say and do differently
or the same as she did when Istarted.
You know putting my foot in theworkplace, so with them it's a
little different.
They're a little, even morewatered down than I am.
(45:40):
They're not as overtly and evenI'm not that overtly West
Indian, but in general, what Itell them is, from what I don't
want to tell them, the sameexact thing my mother told me
Right, which is you know, tobecome this.
You know them to be aware thatthere can be negative
repercussions for being seen asdifferent or other.
(46:05):
And instead of my thing is Idon't teach that you need to
stuff your heritage down.
You need to stuff your heritagedown, but you need to be make
smart decisions for how youpresent and how you interact
when it comes to you know, justin general, but also with with
being Guyanese in the workplace,and everything is a learning
experience.
So, however it turns out, it'snot the end of the world If you,
(46:29):
you know, end up sharing withsomeone that you know we're
going home for a month in thesummertime and it turns some
weird conversation that somehowbacklashes at the workplace.
All right, Well, what are wegoing to take from that?
How are we going to learn fromthat and how are we going to
move on?
The world is not over, the worstthing that's happened.
You may have to find anotherjob, but you know that's
(46:50):
happened before in life and it'snot the end of the world.
So these are things I amactually actively trying to
figure out how to share withthem, and you know how to, how,
how they would navigate throughthis weird space that is
American corporate America.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
It is a, it is a weird space.
But you know, I, I think I'veI've learned, you know I've been
burnt enough times by my own,you know, naivete, so to speak,
my my being resolute in you knowI come here and do a good job
and and actually I think, whatreally kind of made me feel that
(47:28):
way.
I remember tell a quick story Ihave beer stories but I
remember there was this job andthis office manager.
I stopped talking to her orinteracting with her and I was
very honest, because sometimeswe're too much on principle.
I'm on principle, but we're toomuch on principle.
So the office manager waschatting some people and I felt
(47:51):
it was inappropriate as anoffice manager to be talking
about another coworker you know,talking with somebody else
telling our business.
You know like I thought it wasinappropriate.
When I mean inappropriate,something never burned me so
much in my life right.
Because as the office managershe had like sensitive,
confidential conversations and Iknew she was telling somebody
(48:13):
else, so I stopped talking toher.
I would say good morning orwhatever, but I don't laugh at
her.
I don't laugh at her Becausewhat that tells me now, like if
I have a problem, that's HRrelated, I don't chat to you.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
My business.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
That's how I translated that.
So when it came to review time,she told you know the partners
that you know I'm being mean tothe staff.
Again, this mean thing keepcoming up because I shut down.
Right, I just shut down and inmy review it came up that I was
mean.
So the owner of the company waslike well, does she do her work
?
He's like yes.
(48:49):
So the owner of the company waslike well, does she do her work
?
He's like yes, well.
So the owner and the partnerwas like well, all that's matter
.
But they were older white guysand they're not about the whole
social business, they're aboutyou doing your job.
So I kind of got away with that.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
But as.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
I moved through other jobs and the bosses were not as
older and they were younger.
I wouldn't have gotten.
I can't get away with oh she'sa hard worker you know, and you
know it would go.
So that was kind of when thereality and you know, maybe the
bosses were older but they werekind of transitioning.
So the other stakeholders, theother people that had the ear of
(49:27):
people who had more influence,you know, were younger so that
didn't work out for me.
But at the end of the day.
I still worked hard and it wasit.
So they can't get you on yourhard work.
They're going to get you on theinterpersonal skills, the
social, the social aspects.
So you know that's part of thestrategy that you know I kind of
(49:51):
talk about and these are theconversations that I try to have
with you know, when my of talkabout and these are the
conversations that I try to havewith you know, when my daughter
was in high school, like theparents, like we kind of have to
start having differentconversations with our kids
because we're not preparing them.
You know, to deal with what nowbecomes almost 80% of corporate,
how you interact with yourcoworkers as opposed to the work
(50:12):
that you're delivering.
That takes such a bigger impacton your job and the longevity
of your job.
Regardless of what they say, oh, we value work.
That's not the experience ofpeople of color or, worse, if
you're an immigrant.
That is just not always yourexperience, exactly yeah.
You know.
(50:32):
So thank you guys for joiningme to have this conversation.
I think we talked more, notonly about the misconceptions of
the Caribbean woman, but themisconceptions of the Caribbean
immigrant and period it's, it's.
There's no quick solution,there's no easy fix.
I think the only thing we couldsay is just keep having these
conversations so, if you'relistening, you don't feel like
(50:54):
you're the only one that isgoing through this.
To be continued, moreconversations.
Thank you, alicia and Deanna,for being part of this
conversation and, like I like tosay at the end of the show,
walk good.
Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of
Carry.
On Friends the CaribbeanAmerican podcast.
I am Carrie-Anne and I have twoguests with me today, alicia
and Deanna, and I'll let themintroduce themselves in a second
.
But we are going to talk aboutworkplace shenanigans and we're
(00:26):
going to talk aboutmisconceptions about the
Caribbean American woman in theworkplace.
So let's throw it to Alisa.
Alisa, tell the people.
Alisa is not a stranger to theshow this is her third
appearance, but still so.
Let me just swing it to thenewbie, Deanna.
Deanna, introduce yourself tothe audience.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
So hello, my name is Deanna.
I'm also known as Dis Chick.
I am a silka music partyblogger.
So my coworkers actually knowthat I'm a party blogger.
So my West Indian-ness comes upa lot in the workplace,
especially on a Monday morningwhen they're asking me what I
did over the weekend.
(01:06):
So everyone at least in myworkplace knows, you know, I'm
of Guyanese descent.
I do go out a lot on theweekends, I do party, I do go to
carnivals, so it's aninteresting topic because this
comes up a lot for me.
So I'm happy to be joining theshow for the first time, not a
(01:27):
veteran like Alicia.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
That's all right, we'll make you a vet down the
road, alicia.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Hey, thank you for having me on again.
I love coming to visit you guys.
Hey guys, my name is Alicia.
I am also known as AliciaSimone.
My blog is Rewind and ComeAgain, where I talk about
Caribbean, american Caribbeandiaspora culture, and I'm happy
to join in.
My experience is a littledifferent from Deanna's.
Most people in my workplace donot know I am of West Asian
(01:56):
heritage until some event orsome subject brings it up.
And then, yeah, theconversation after that and the
attitudes after that are reallyinteresting once people find out
, so really excited to talkabout this.
I think this is a topic mostpeople don't really consider
discussing.
It's just something you livewith and work with, and so I'm
(02:18):
excited to delve in more into it.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
All right.
So, alisa, why haven't you told, or why don't people at your
job know that you're Western?
Is that a conscious decision orit's it just never came up?
You don't think that's anecessary thing to lead with?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
I think it's a.
I think it's a consciousdecision.
The way I was raised, my motherwas very when you're in school
or you're at work, you speakproperly, you speak the Queen's
English, and you behave acertain way and you don't, and
people can see you're Black,that's enough.
I mean, she didn't say thesethings outright, but in just the
(02:56):
way she grew me it was, it justbecame known that you don't one
.
You don't need to give it toomuch personal information and
then cultural information is notnecessary unless it's really
necessary to the task at hand.
You don't share that becauseyou'll only, probably will only
be a problem for you or give youdifficulties down the road or
or put eyes on you that are notnecessary.
(03:18):
So I never really, I don't evenreally think about it.
I just, you know, work.
Alicia is very American, veryjolly, and, and unless something
comes up where recently I'vegot some vacation plan, I'm
going to Guyana in May, and so Ihad to put in for that time and
it was, you know, a full twoweeks, and so, oh, my God, where
(03:40):
are you going for two weeks.
And then I'm like, oh geez,here we go and I'm like, well,
I'm going on vacation Reallywhen I'm going to South America,
south America, oh my God.
What's going on down there?
Well, my family's from Guyana,guyana, oh my God.
And it makes me uncomfortable todiscuss because I feel like I
become an exotic object becauseI work in a predominantly white
(04:04):
industry.
Exotic object because I work ina predominantly white industry.
Then I become a subject ofpeople want to ask all these,
tell me more about it, and is itlike Jamaica and white beaches?
And and then I don't want toexplain all that.
I don't want to be a cultural,I don't want to be national,
geographic, at the, at the, atthe office.
So I kind of leave it alone,unless it really is necessary to
discuss.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I got you.
I got you.
You know I'm, I'm, I'm sort ofin between.
But, like early in my career, Iliterally just went to work.
I walked in and I know majorhype really exaggerates it, but
none of us walks in, especiallyme, the Jamaican in the room,
and I was like, oh, many of themcarry me out of Jamaica and I'm
(04:45):
beat chest, I don't do that,none of us do that.
And as you know, like Aliciasays, you know old school
because our parents came to theUS in a time where it was
literally you blend in, youdon't try to make anyone hear
any hint of an accent.
So I get that.
(05:06):
You know going to work.
You know growing up we weretaught to compartmentalize.
So and I'm still having thatstruggle with certain people
because I think now in a modernday and millennials, you know
everything is kind of blurredand blended.
You know, growing up, you knowI grew up in Jamaica and then I
(05:27):
came here.
Everything was you had workfriends, you had school friends,
you had church friends and youknow none of them really mixed
unless they lived in yourcommunity or you lived in the
same church.
So uh, went to the same churchso you could live in the same
community, go to the same school, go to the same church or you
(05:47):
know a mixture of them, butotherwise there was just no
blending.
So I kind of took that sameapproach here and where I came
from never really came up onlike on, like you, alicia.
Something happens, you know andto be honest you don't want it.
You know and to be honest youdon't want it, and I mean it's a
(06:08):
reality.
If it comes up that I'mJamaican and you hear it in my
voice, then I'm upset and thenthat's just not a bad situation
to be, in.
When the accent comes out atwork, it's typically when you
know you're upset.
So that's my experience withthat, deanna.
You know your co-workers areall in it, and so how did that
(06:29):
come about this conversationthat they knew?
You know that you are a partyblogger, you're Guyanese.
How did that conversationhappen?
Speaker 3 (06:38):
You know what it's so interesting?
Because I actually have adifferent perception.
I actually do want to educate,you know, my coworkers, because
sometimes and I've been insituations where people have
said very ignorant things andyou know, without malice, they
just really didn't know.
Especially when I say Guyanaand they immediately assume
(06:59):
Ghana and that becomes theconversation.
And then when I say I'm a WestIndian and they're like oh,
you're Jamaican.
No, I really think geographyneeds to be stressed in school.
But I actually take that onmyself to really start talking
to them about West Indiannessand Caribbean Americans and just
(07:21):
experience, but music, culture,food.
I feel like it's important forme to to educate them so they
they don't say those stupidthings to me.
Um, my parents made it so thatit was.
It's a part of who I am and soI.
I actually don't reallycompartmentalize.
Um, blogging has, of course,just emphasize that, because I
(07:43):
want people to know about allthe festivities and the music
and the culture.
But it's also I take pride inthat, and so I want to share
that.
I want to tell people, and soI've actually met people at work
who are like oh yeah, I have afriend who's Guyanese and she
never tells me anything about it.
Or I have a friend who'sTrinidadian, and what's the food
like?
And so they end up actuallyasking me questions because they
(08:10):
want to know, but they'reafraid to ask.
Right, they don't want to comeoff sounding ignorant, they
don't want to impose themselves.
There's a lot of guilt withsaying things to your coworkers.
You're not sure how people aregoing to take it, you don't want
to offend.
So I think for me I createsomething like a safe space.
You can ask me those questions,because I don't want you to go
to the next person and saysomething ignorant.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
so let's talk about it sorry, I didn't mean to cut
you off, you know.
You know what I noticed?
All three of us are kind oftalking like are we the only
West Indian in the workplace?
Is that, like, true for you orboth of you?
Speaker 2 (08:42):
no, not at all.
It's a Trini girl at my job, sothe trini girl, don't let
anybody know, she's trini no, itjust uh, no when it comes up.
You know what happens every day.
Also, I noticed there's amailroom guy who's jamaican and
he comes up by and that's whenwe like both turn on because
he'll come in and we're all like, hey, did you do?
(09:05):
You know where the spreadsheetis and when is the next meeting?
And then he'll come by and he'slike hey, girl, what's going on
?
And then we immediately likehey, what's going on?
And she, I think, is more likeDeanna, where she's got a more
like I don't care, this is me,even though in her daily you
can't tell because she doesn'thave an accent.
Like I don't care, this is me,even though in her daily you
(09:26):
can't tell because she doesn'thave an accent.
Um, you can't really tell, butshe immediately turns on when he
starts.
We start, all three of us starttalking and she doesn't care
what people think.
She, you know she's the personwho doesn't care what people
think.
So we live, we work in an openenvironment, so anything,
anytime you open your mouth,everyone can hear you.
Yeah, so, yeah.
So everyone's head starts toturn when we talk.
And this may be my own personalhang up that I need to get over
(09:48):
more than thinking about it now.
I she immediately starts whensomeone going on and starts
talking, and I do the same.
But then I'm I'm conscious ofpeople perking up and like, oh,
I never heard them talk likethis before.
What does that word mean?
I can see it and I feel, feelself-conscious and I I realized
I started to almost whisper and,or you know, try to move us
(10:11):
into another location, so we'renot so close to people.
So I think that's something Ineed to think about.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Is that that self-consciousness is probably
you know your mom and you knowwhat she's told you like in the
back of your mind, because forthem it was really very, very
serious.
There's not one person in yourmom's generation you know that
came up and they really it was.
(10:37):
They've had repercussions aboutbeing too West Indian and you
know so.
So there's some history thereand because she's drilled it
into you so much, you are almostlike this thing, like I don't
want people to know and call toomuch attention to yourself.
So that's probably what it is,but something to explore further
.
Deanna, how about you?
Are there other West Indians onthe job?
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yes, they are, and you know they also are of the
mindset of.
You know I'll speak to otherWest Indians and tell them about
.
You know I'm going home forcarnival or you know I'm
visiting family or something ishappening.
But they don't really sharethat in the workplace because
it's not really seen asprofessional.
And of course you don't wantpeople who are in your workspace
to be in your life space, right?
(11:21):
You don't want them to know toomuch about what you do when you
leave at five o'clock.
So I respect that.
I definitely respect that.
I'm the complete opposite.
I let people know.
Yeah, I have to leave because Ihave to catch a flight to
Toronto for Caravana.
Yeah, I have to go because I'mdoing this thing or I'm heading
to this event.
So for me it's very different,but I definitely do connect with
(11:43):
.
There's a Guyanese woman,there's a Trinidadian woman,
there are two Jamaican men andwe have that kind of like Alicia
, that little in crowd where youspeak a certain way.
But for me, I feel, because Iwas not born in Guyana, when I
tried to put on a Guyaneseaccent I don't feel authentic at
all.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
I feel like.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
I am faking this completely.
I don't feel authentic at all.
I feel like I am faking thiscompletely.
So I don't do it like that.
But I definitely realize, youknow, we relax a little bit more
, we speak a little bit moreopenly because you feel like
these people can understand whenyou have family obligations or
you have things that you need todo, or you feel like you know,
going down the road and gettingsome jerk chicken or getting
some curry why are there nocurry spots in Midtown, Like we
(12:25):
have those kinds ofconversations and we share.
But I definitely get why people, you know, create that barrier
between their personal space andtheir workspace.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Yeah, I definitely create that barrier.
I remember I worked in thelegal industry for a long time
and I remember, you know, I wasone of one of the partners or
the attorneys that I workedclosely with.
(12:59):
She was you know, we were havinga conversation and it goes back
to the compartmentalization.
So I was like man, I don't haveany clothes or something.
And I said, oh, but she saidyou just bought clothes the
other day.
You went shopping.
I'm like no, those are goingout clothes.
I'm like it's, it's a WestIndian thing.
It's go.
You know, you don't wear theclothes that you buy for party
to work.
You just don't do that.
And and then she's how it evencame up that I'm West Indian.
She was like, oh, you know, Iwent to a Jamaican shop and the
right I bought the rice and thebeans and there's a distinct
(13:21):
taste.
I'm like it's the coconuts.
She's like how do you know thatI'm Jamaican?
So it's like having those, likeyou know, like those
opportunities.
And that only came out becauseworking in the law firm there
are a lot of late nights, soit's kind of one-on-one.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
And.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
I, I, I felt comfortable having this
conversation with her becauseyou know, she was a lot like me.
She kept to herself, there wasno, you know, crossing over and
like each other's personal spaceand personal life.
But for the most part I justkind of navigate and if people
are Jamaican, I don't kind ofsay anything or hear them
talking, I just listen.
Because, you know, honestly, Iwant to hear somebody's going to
(13:59):
say something about me in Patuaand don't say anything.
Know, if I keep talking thequeen's english and nobody is
none the wiser because I cancode switch better than anybody.
So, you know, if I keep quiet,I want to hear if somebody goes
to that girl over there.
So, like, I want to hear if I'mgonna talk about me, um, but um
(14:20):
, I think there was one job thatI went to that there was so
many West Indians, particularlyGuyanese.
It was just like I've never beenat a job where there was so.
And then, you know, it was tothe point where you know it
would walk down the hallway andeverybody was like walk on.
Everybody's like, yeah, youknow, and everybody's like like
literally Trinis, guyanese,haitians, you know, bajans.
(14:43):
I was like I've never seen likeso many in one place Did you
like that.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
That must feel so like comfortable, or maybe not,
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Um, we worked in different departments, so it was
.
It made it a little.
It was different because youknow you didn't always interact.
So the only times we really didinteract because if someone's
in the billing department andyou're the only person, you'll
walk past yes, I walk on and I'msaying oh, and it'll keep
working but like when they hadlike the monthly birthday
(15:13):
celebrations or something likethis, everybody's like hey, or
usually like when something hashappened.
So, um, particularly when therewas like track and field events,
some sporting events, that'skind of where the big
conversations happened.
Otherwise we kind of dispersedand kind of went about our
business because at the sametime, like Deanna said, it's not
(15:33):
quite professional and we'reaware of that, but we do turn on
and light up when we are aroundeach other, especially if
something significant ishappening in the community or
has happened in the community.
Especially if somethingsignificant is happening in the
community or has happened in thecommunity, you know somebody
walk up like yo, you're here,about so-and-so, it's like.
So it was, it was cool.
But we still kind of knew whento kind of you know if.
(15:55):
If you know back away, if youknow you're around your team,
you're kind of do the WestIndian communication, your
points with the lip.
You know the head nod, youwatch the eye and if you watch
the eye you see the Hannah movea little bit the finger, like
that type of thing.
So I did enjoy that.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
But where where.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
I currently work, I'm the I'm the only Jamaican, so
and the West Indian.
So we kind of talked aboutlet's get into like
misconceptions are pretty muchstereotypes, right?
Deanna kind of mentioned onethe minute.
She said she's West Indian orfrom the Caribbean.
Default Jamaican, right.
So that's like a misconceptionthat people have about every
(16:42):
West Indian or Caribbean person.
They're from Jamaica and that'sa whole different conversation
as to why people do that andthat probably could take up this
call.
But what do you feel?
I'll throw it to you, aliciawhat do you feel is a
misconception that people havewhen they find out that you're
West Indian, caribbean we usethat term interchangeably for
(17:03):
the audience when they find outthat you're a West Indian or
Caribbean woman?
Speaker 2 (17:10):
You know one thing that I think it kind of depends,
and this is why I brought up,before we got on air, I brought
up that I think there is adifference between if you walk
into the workplace and presentas someone who was born and
raised in the Caribbean versusan American of Caribbean descent
, because from what I've seenfrom my experience, versus my
(17:36):
friends who are raised in theCaribbean and come here and work
as older adults, I feel likethey have a harder time.
They are perceived as notinitially at least.
They don't know, they won'tunderstand what proper business
(17:58):
protocols are, proper businessstandards.
American business standards arethe standard, the industry
standard.
Then they clearly, whereverthey came from, they probably
don't do it the way we do it andthe way they do it is probably
subpar.
So from the stories I've heard,I feel like immigrants in
(18:21):
general, caribbean immigrants inparticular, are initially
perceived as well.
We're going to have to get youup to pace because however you
did it in your home islandprobably isn't the correct way
or the industry standard way.
And then they're.
You know, they quickly learn.
Just because I have an accentand was born somewhere else
doesn't mean I don't know whatI'm doing, but I think that's an
(18:44):
initial reaction as opposed to,like my experience as someone
of Caribbean descent.
I don't present initially asCaribbean.
You wouldn't guess that justfrom your initial interaction
with me I wouldn't get that samepreconceived notion.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
How about you, Deanna ?
Speaker 3 (19:11):
that same preconceived notion.
How about you, deanna?
For me, it's usually and I'veseen this with other people who
definitely have the accent, orit's very clear that they have
either just come to the countryor they've been here a very
short period of time.
There's this misconception thatthey're going to take forever
to get something done, and I'veheard people say that like, oh,
if you give it to her, you knowit's going to take an extra,
(19:34):
however many days, you know, butshe's from the Caribbean where
everything is slower.
Wow, and it wasn't true.
She just got to the job.
Somebody actually said thatSomeone actually said that.
Of course it's in, you knowknow, the copy room, so other
people can't hear.
And again, since I also, likealicia, don't really present as
west indian I don't have anaccent or anything they felt
(19:55):
comfortable saying this in frontof me and it was based on
nothing at all.
She had just gotten to the job.
But they're like, oh, you knowhow it is in the islands, they
like to take their time withthings.
So just make sure you stress toher that we need this quickly.
And it was so rude and ofcourse I had to speak on it.
Um, but it was just immediately.
That was the reaction.
(20:16):
She's from the Caribbean, she'sgoing to take a long time to do
something because apparentlytime is is not part of her.
You know she's, it's just notgoing to be a priority for her.
She likes to do things a littlebit slower.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, that's interesting.
So, um a misconception,inferiority in terms of you know
, um work, um deliverables andspeed, you know, like it's okay.
Um, all right, so I have onefor you.
That happened recently.
Um, I don't remember how iteven came up that I'm jamaican I
(20:53):
don't remember, but it came upand um person's like I don't
like jamaicans.
I went to jamaica and they wereall mean and blah, blah blah
and I'm like, okay, you know,that's their experience.
I can't say no one was mean toyou because, let's face it
Everybody talks about theCaribbean woman in the Jamaican
(21:14):
store shop restaurant whorefused to give me extra gravy.
So you know, let's be real,there are some mean people out
there.
And then they asked me if I'veever smoked weed and I was like
nope never I was like no.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
How are you?
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Jamaican and never smoked weed.
I'm like.
I'm like, uh, I don't know like, why would you assume that
everybody in jamaica smokes weed?
Because you guys have it likeit's, you know, I was just like
all right, and they were likeand so this other person was
like never.
I'm like never.
I don't have to lie, it's likethey didn't believe you I'm
(21:53):
looking like no, my mom, andnobody's looking over my
shoulder.
I've never smoked weed, it'sjust so it's.
It's.
It's like why would you justdefault to that?
You know, I mean, I, if, if, Imean if you're a rastafarian,
it's like okay, you know, theyassume, but I'm like why would
you?
Assume that and um it was.
(22:15):
I didn't even think I needed to.
You know, I kind of said, well,would you?
Would you?
If someone said they were fromcolumbia, would you
automatically assume thatthey've had experience with
cocaine?
you, you know it's, it's likeit's, it's, it was.
It was just a weird and and wewere in a, a, a place where
(22:35):
there was a going away party forsomeone, and I was just like,
all right, you know, maybe theyhad a little too much to drink,
because I didn't feel likegetting into it, but you know I
had that.
So, but specifically though, asa Caribbean woman, like what are
some?
You know, stereotypes, Like, Ithink, for me, um, I remember at
(22:55):
an old job, you know, like, asyou know, we, we tend to have
that reputation.
Like some of us, we don't smilewith you.
I mean I don't, I'm not smilingall the time and, quite frankly
, if I look like I have aserious face which I'm told I
have most of the time it hasnothing to do with you.
They tend to be a little bitmore serious and the American
(23:33):
workplace tends to value, youknow, more social, social
ability as opposed to you knowthis, you know this arm's length
approach that we have, which iskind of what we were brought up
on.
So I think that's particularsomething to me that I've
experienced, that I'm a meanJamaican woman.
I'm like I'm not mean.
(23:54):
I just don't have anything tosay to you.
If I need to speak to you, I'llspeak to you, and if I'm upset
with you, you're going to knowthat I'm upset with you.
But it's part of the Americancultural workplace, as opposed
to how we were brought up.
What are other misconceptionsyou've had, deanna?
(24:14):
Were you partying?
I'm sure they have a lot of.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
I can't believe you live that life and they even
know it Like I wouldn't.
I would not have patience foranybody's mouth on Monday
morning.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Right, I feel like my .
My weekend like, though, letsme deal with all of the things I
have to deal with throughoutthe week, because I mean you
guys have seen some of my poststhat there are so many, so many
random issues that I have beinga woman in the workplace, being
a black woman in the workplace,being a Caribbean woman in the
workplace in the workplace,being a black woman in the
workplace, being a Caribbeanwoman in the workplace, and
(24:49):
there's so much that you almosthave to explain yourself before
you can even just be yourselfthere.
So there's definitely, you know, carrie and I hear you with the
social aspect, and I've seen itactually hurt other people,
other Caribbean women, becausethey're not, you know, going
into the kitchen and it'ssomebody's birthday, and blah,
(25:10):
blah, blah, and, of course, Imean even myself.
I don't have a lot of patiencefor that.
Like I want to.
I want to get back to work.
I don't really need to stayhere and celebrate Carol's
birthday for an hour, um, but ittends to hurt, hurt us, because
it's seen as oh, you'reantisocial, you don't want to
(25:33):
participate, you're not a teamplayer, when the truth is, we've
we've been taught that we justyou'll be promoted on your merit
and your work ethic and that'snot really the case anymore.
People want personality, theywant to be able to socialize,
they want to be able to hang outwith you, because the further
up you get in the lap in the um,the corporation, they're going
to have to interact with youmore often.
So they're looking for thosepersonal connections and we're
not really taught to expose thatside of us.
So that's part of the reasonwhy I'm very conscious about
(25:55):
letting people know what I dooutside of work.
And I've had, you know, higherups come to me and oh, how was
your weekend?
They're just waiting for thescoop.
So what'd you do?
Where'd you go?
What was this party?
What was that?
So it actually can help to be alittle bit more social.
Not that you need to tell themeverything about your business,
but it can help to be a littlebit more social and a little bit
(26:16):
more open.
And it really goes against howwe're taught to behave in a
workplace.
But yeah, I see it constantlywith that.
But what I usually get is youknow, carrie Ann, you don't have
locks, I have locks.
So of course I'm the weedperson.
They come to me and ask mewhere they can get it or do I
(26:39):
know?
anyone Exactly, and when I'mlike I have no connection for
you.
I don't smoke weed.
I don't know anybody who canget you weed.
I'm sorry, you almost see themicroaggression like wait, but
you're West Indian and you havelocks.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
What do?
Speaker 3 (26:56):
you mean, you're my weed connection, you're my go-to
.
So definitely having to explainthat Having locks in the
workplace is also a differentchallenge.
It's not so much a barrieranymore for getting promoted or
getting hired, but it definitelydoes come with its own set of
misconceptions, and especiallyyour West Indian woman with
locks there's there's a lot thatthey assume immediately.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
You know, um, deanna, what you said about the the
whole you know, meritocracy orview.
That's the reason why I startedCarry On Friends, because I
that in 2013, I was in a placewhere this one attorney she's a
fresh associate and you knowshe's there, you know she's
(27:40):
social with the paralegals andI'm their manager.
And you know, basically,because you know I wasn't really
, you know, I'm about work, I'mnot going to laugh with you and
kiki and all that good stuff.
And she encouraged some ofthose paralegals to be
insubordinate and she wentaround telling out of my mouth.
(28:07):
So I know, whatever I tell you,I tell you for your
professional interest, bestinterest and for my best
interest, because I was hired todo this job and it was at that
point.
There was a turning point,because you know, I'm not a
rainmaker and I felt like theactions there eventually led to
me losing that job because itwas them against me.
(28:29):
It was me, you know, notplaying their game, it was me
not laughing.
I'm like I really I reallydon't, I really don't care what
you do, especially since I knewthat she was like one of those
who was like gunning for me tolose my job.
That's when she got the screwface and the serious face.
And that's when she was likegunning for me to lose my job,
that's when she got the screwface and the serious face and
(28:50):
that's when she was like, yousee, and I and I and I reported
it a couple of times, but thoseare like some issues and that's
essentially why I started thisplatform is like you got to play
their game, and the challengefor us is like we don't want to
play their game, like we will,will tell you.
And this is why those majorhype skits are really funny,
because we really want to tellyou what he said, but we know we
(29:12):
can't tell you what he's saying.
You know, you know we can'tlook at you.
You know, you know we I mean,some people do it because I've,
I've heard stories of people whoworked with other west indians
and the those stories of thosewest indians going off is like
oh wow, he did that man, but youknow in my work.
Did he have to die later?
(29:33):
So I mean, but that is aserious issue.
I've been to like I remember wewere at like a Caribbean
American Heritage Day panel andyou know people said that they
got fired.
People are getting firedbecause this adjustment to how
we socialize.
(29:53):
So you know, especially so nowthat people know you're west
indian you've been spoken to acouple times you're a black
woman, you're a minority, youhave all these issues and so you
know you not laughing with theoffice and going out every time
the office has drinks.
I'm not a drinker and I tellthem that.
And when we go out, I drinkShirley Temples and they're like
what I'm like?
(30:13):
Listen, I'm here, I'm here.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
And I like.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Shirley Temples, and that's it.
You know, it's almost like youneed to conform and do things
the way they do and we are likeI want to go home, and things
the way they do and we are likeI want to go home and I have
like people at home and I'mtired.
But it's people take it reallypersonal?
Speaker 2 (30:35):
yes, they do.
Yeah, take it when you don't umtake part in office culture,
and that took a long time for meto get used to, um.
But and as a West Indian woman,I still am on my p's and q's
when I do take part in officeculture.
So, like at my office onThursdays, they have like a cafe
in the building and we have ahappy hour after at five, like
(30:56):
five to seven, and at first Iwould never go.
And they were like, at leastyou're going upstairs.
I'm like I'm good, I'm justgoing to finish this up and go
home.
And then the Trini girl actuallycame to me and was like why you
don't ever go upstairs?
And I'm like, well, I don't,these are my friends, I'm here
for some money.
Why would I laugh and joke withthese folks over wine or
whatever?
(31:16):
And she's the one who was like,listen, you need to come
upstairs every now and then.
You don't have to come everyThursday, but you need to come,
say, for 20 minutes, drink alittle half a glass, giggle and
laugh at their jokes and thenyou can go home.
But, trust me, people arewatching you do good work, but
this is part of it.
And I was like okay, and so Istarted doing that.
(31:37):
But even while I'm up there, Istill feel like, you know, I
need to be on my guard.
You know I'll drink half aglass, I'll laugh and I joke,
but I'm still, like you know, onmy guard.
But I do have to take part andthat's something that's really
hard.
Um, I think for for westindians to to get, get and get
in gear with yeah, because wewere taught, like you know.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
I mean I like fiat and you know, it's this thing,
but um all right.
So so far, let's recap what themisconceptions are.
She has friends, but we'recultured not to have friends at
work.
We love our job and we workhard, but our personality will
shine only in the rightenvironment, and usually that's
(32:21):
a challenge.
If we don't talk, it's for alot of reasons.
It's not because we hate youthat could be it but it's
usually not so.
The other thing is success andhard work is cultured into our
every fiber.
Now, this I want to touch on,because success and hard work
goes two different ways, right?
(32:41):
So I've had the benefit ofreally getting far in my career
because people recognize that Iworked very hard and they were
like all right, let's go hook.
They hook their arm in mine andthey like pull me along.
But some other people, boy,they see that hard work and they
start competing with you.
And then that's when all theother things that we talk about
(33:03):
coming to place, the, the, thesabotage and, you know, going
behind people's back, and whenthat happens the true culture of
like, that's when more theaggression comes out from a west
indian perspective.
So it kind of exacerbates theproblem.
I don't know what.
What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 3 (33:20):
I think that's interesting.
Um, I think, as caribbean women, we really don't play the
politics at work yeah, we don't,um, and you know I think we
need to, we definitely need to.
We're missing out.
That's part of corporate life,right?
You have to play the game, youhave to play the politics.
And you know we really aretaught that just work hard and
(33:43):
you'll succeed.
Just keep working hard.
If you didn't get thatpromotion, it's because you
didn't work hard enough.
So we work harder and we don'trealize it could be politics,
it's, it could be right and wedon't engage in that and I think
we, we definitely are missingout.
I did.
it's a disservice to us I didn'tright now I do yeah, because
and it doesn't always have to belike backstabbing- it's just
(34:05):
you have to be aware of who'smaking certain moves, the power
players, who's cozying up withdifferent people.
Exactly, really, it's a game ofsurvivor, yeah, and we don't
play the game.
We are just conditioned to workhard and keep working hard and
that will equal success.
And that's not really trueanymore.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Yes and um so uh, we.
I did a workshop called um yourCaribbean competitive advantage
and one of the things that Ikeep saying we cannot bring
soccer rules to an NFL game.
You know, we have whatever rulesthey have there, we have to
play in their rules, we have toplay those positions and, like
(34:43):
you said, no, we don't have tolie and backstab, but we know
that every morning.
You know, you know that, youknow it's part of the culture
there to nod and you know yak itup a little bit and do you kind
of have to do that.
You got to observe who are thepower players, who who's what,
who's this, and you know.
One of the other things that Ihad to learn was like saying,
(35:04):
hey, I did this, I did a goodjob, like culturally, and most
immigrants are not comfortablekind of tooting their horn about
what they've done and that haskilled us in so many ways, and I
have to learn to kind of start,you know, kind of saying hey I
did this job and it feels weird,kind of saying look at me, I
did a good job.
But essentially you kind of haveto do that because if you don't
(35:26):
say it, someone else is goingto take that credit.
So I had to learn that and it'sstill kind of hard to do that.
Bring that attention to myselfbecause I've been cultured not
to bring that attention tomyself.
Forget that.
I'm doing this podcast becauseclearly that's bringing
attention to myself.
But you kind of grew up knowingyou know be seen and not heard,
and you know you kind of takethat behavior into the workplace
(35:50):
.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
You'll be recognized in time for as long if you work
hard, someone will recognize youwhen and you'll get your credit
to do, but to to put your putyour hand up and um like at at
my job.
I'm a long-term freelancer andso now it's all been almost a
year and now everyone keepscoming to me like are they gonna
going to bring you on full time?
(36:11):
What's going on?
Why is this taking so long?
And one guy in particular waslike why don't you go talk to
them, Go to HR, go to the headwoman and be like I want to be
full time, Let them know.
And I was like why would I dothat?
I was like no, I was like ifthey want me full time, they can
offer One.
(36:40):
I don't know if I want to befull-time, but if they wanted me
they would let me know whywould I go and you know, put my,
you know, stick my head up, ifnot necessary, to yourself.
Yeah, yeah, they know what workI'm doing.
They see me here, yeah, and hedidn't get it.
He was like, okay, and, and youknow I like war at myself with
these types of things because mynature is to, you know, fold
into the back when this officeculture is so opposite that.
So you know that that'ssomething that's been coming up
(37:02):
a lot recently.
Everyone's like why don't yougo talk to them about that?
And I'm like, no, leave mealone.
Can I bring up one small?
It's in regards to everythingwe've talked about.
This is very small and reallynot that important.
But something that reallyirritates me is that you know, I
try to save money at times andbring lunch from home.
(37:23):
Oh boy, insane is when people,oh, my god, what is that?
Is that curry, what?
Or, if it's not, if it's not arecognizably west indian dish
that every american knows like acurry or something.
If it's, I brought leftoverpepper pot or something like
that and oh, what's that?
(37:43):
And everyone's in my bowl andthey want to know and they're
gonna struggle and I'm likereally, really, it's called
pepper pot.
It was made this like can I eat?
It's getting cold now, can Ieat like those?
Those are the, those are thethings that that's a small thing
, but that's something that's abig thing there's?
Speaker 3 (38:00):
I don't think there's , but I think everybody just
went.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Oh yeah, you all know what that's like, but do you
encourage them like?
Speaker 3 (38:07):
well, maybe not encourage them, but when they do
come to you and start askingyou, are you open to talk?
Or is it more like I don'treally want to have to educate
you about my food?
I just want to sit here and eatin peace, and maybe you're not
eating with other people.
Even Is it like they'reimposing?
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Over time it depends my mood.
I can get real standoffishsometimes and want my personal
space, but over time I've becomea little more open.
Um, what most recently happened, which I thought was hilarious,
was that, um, you guys knowthat I'm going to guyana in may
for this film festival, and noone really.
(38:45):
I just put in I'm taking thisvacation.
Um, and everyone thought it wasjust like a family thing.
And then we as a department hadlunch and this girl was started
talking.
She's like, yeah, I'm reallyinto film and this and that.
And I was, and I was like Imust have had something to drink
.
So I was like, yeah, girl, doyou know I'll do this?
And I'm having a film workshopin diana.
And she's like, oh, wow.
(39:05):
And she's like, oh, she'salmost ready to book her ticket
to come this.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Let her book her ticket.
The film festival needs herparticipation.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Right, right but it was shocking.
She's this blonde hair,blue-eyed, you know like super
becky girl who she's mad, cool,but like I couldn't, I again
like warn with myself, like Ican't believe I'm having this
conversation and now open andthen that's so.
Now she's asking me even morequestions about Diana and I'm
(39:33):
sharing all this informationwith her and I'm like, oh, this
is a new level for me.
Wow, I don't feel weird.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
It almost seems like you're letting your guard down.
Deanna, what would you say to ayoung Caribbean lineal going
into work and you know having todeal with microaggressions and
are not used to that?
Speaker 3 (39:53):
into work and you know having to deal with
microaggressions and are notused to that.
Wow, that's.
That's going to be a challenge,because I think it depends so
much on how much of your, yourcultural heritage is part of
your day to day, right?
Like, how much of that do youbring to the workplace?
Are you comfortable sharingthat about yourself?
And you don't necessarily needto start off with, hey, I'm, I'm
, you know, jamaican, I'mGuyanese, I'm Trinanian, let's
(40:16):
all talk about it.
But it's more of just being opento socializing at all in the
workplace, being open to reallyseeing other people as just just
like you.
You know, you can feel safesaying things about yourself,
encouraging them to haveconversations with you, opening
yourself up, maybe not being soresistant to their questions,
(40:37):
because they just don't knowRight, and for so long we
haven't said anything Right,like we don't tell them that
we're West Indian, we don't sayanything about our culture, we
don't say anything about ourhistory.
So they really have no frame ofreference.
So they're coming withquestions.
But I do think it's importantto to accept it as part of who
you are.
Right, if you're a woman, you'rea woman.
(40:57):
You can't hide that when you gointo the workplace and you
accept that things are going tohappen to you or you know you're
going to get a certain reactionbecause of it.
It's the same as when you'reWest Indian you know things are
going to happen, things aregoing to arise because of it and
just being comfortable inyourself, knowing that this is
part of who you are, these arethe challenges you're going to
(41:18):
face and being ready to toengage with people and have
those discussions.
But as far as the socializing,actually, I actually do have
someone who came to Carabanawith me and was a coworker and
had never heard of the carnivalat all.
Yeah, she's a Taiwanese,american.
Um, she saw what I was doingwith the blog.
(41:41):
She was very interested and shecame and played a mass.
And now every year I'm notkidding every year when are we
going?
Speaker 2 (41:48):
when are we going to Caravana?
When are we going to Toronto?
Speaker 3 (41:51):
Um.
So you'd be surprised how muchthat just exposing yourself like
that can actually help youbuild friendships, can actually
get more acceptance.
People start understanding.
Um, I know another co-workerwho she actually had to go away
for bereavement is very short inmy company and she had to go
for a while because she wasstaying for the nine nights that
you know know the nine nightsare really.
(42:13):
Yeah, it's well, she's 90, aswe also do, oh you guys do nine
nights too, right.
Yeah, yeah.
So she was trying to figure outhow do I explain to them that I
need leave for this wholeperiod of time, and she was
really struggling with.
Do I even tell them why?
And do I have to explain it?
And I'm like you.
You, this is part of who youare.
You have to tell them becauseyou need this time and they need
(42:36):
to know that.
So things like that, where youjust kind of have to be like
this is part of who I am Rightand you have to engage with
people and you have to letpeople know about it, because
you also want to be comfortableto do things for yourself as
well.
So I would, I would say, justbe more open.
It's not a crutch, it's not abad thing to be West Indian.
(42:56):
So be proud of it and letpeople know All right.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
So before I go back to Alicia, since you brought it
up, deanna, let's just you know,for whoever is listening who
may not be familiar.
You know kind of explain whatthe nine nights are, even though
growing up I thought it wasnine, as in night.
You know, like, how the Britishuse nine nine nights.
I'm like what's nine, but it's,it's nine nights and just kind
(43:21):
of explain.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
Nine nights, yeah, it's part of, yeah, it's part of
the grieving and the funerarytraditions in the Caribbean and
the West Indies, where you spendthis time really grieving the
person who's lost.
But at the end of the ninenights you celebrate the life
because that person is no longersuffering, that person is in a
better place.
It's a celebration of thatperson's life and so for quite a
(43:46):
few people they do the entiretime In the workplace.
It's kind of hard to ask forthat whole period of time off.
Maybe people have to travel onthe ninth night, you know, for
the ninth night, um, but it's,it's part of the.
The grieving is part of thefuneral, part of the, the
bereavement.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
For west indians, although I don't feel.
I feel like they're, you know,for a period of time, I feel
like there, you know, for aperiod of time, I feel like
there's party all nine nights,and not just nine nights.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
I mean, we are still West Indian, right, Let me tell
you but that's a whole other.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
I think that's like really like a cultural
experience, like nothing.
I don't we have to talk abouthow Guyanese do it, but how the
Jamaicans do it with the greaterand and all this other stuff.
So now, alicia, the samequestion how would you advise
someone you know about beingthemselves, or you know how to
(44:41):
kind of navigate the workplaceand not dimming their, not
necessarily blowing it up?
Like you know, Muhammad Ali,the champ is here.
You're not announcing thetreaty is here, you know but
like how do you?
Speaker 3 (44:55):
kind of.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
I actually kind of have these conversations now
because my kids are older,they're 18 and 19 and have had
summer jobs or internships.
So I'm now in the role mymother was in, and so I'm trying
(45:20):
to figure out how what I'mgoing to say and do differently
or the same as she did when Istarted.
You know putting my foot in theworkplace, so with them it's a
little different.
They're a little, even morewatered down than I am.
(45:40):
They're not as overtly and evenI'm not that overtly West
Indian, but in general, what Itell them is, from what I don't
want to tell them, the sameexact thing my mother told me
Right, which is you know, tobecome this.
You know them to be aware thatthere can be negative
repercussions for being seen asdifferent or other.
(46:05):
And instead of my thing is Idon't teach that you need to
stuff your heritage down.
You need to stuff your heritagedown, but you need to be make
smart decisions for how youpresent and how you interact
when it comes to you know, justin general, but also with with
being Guyanese in the workplace,and everything is a learning
experience.
So, however it turns out, it'snot the end of the world If you,
(46:29):
you know, end up sharing withsomeone that you know we're
going home for a month in thesummertime and it turns some
weird conversation that somehowbacklashes at the workplace.
All right, Well, what are wegoing to take from that?
How are we going to learn fromthat and how are we going to
move on?
The world is not over, the worstthing that's happened.
You may have to find anotherjob, but you know that's
(46:50):
happened before in life and it'snot the end of the world.
So these are things I amactually actively trying to
figure out how to share withthem, and you know how to, how,
how they would navigate throughthis weird space that is
American corporate America.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
It is a, it is a weird space.
But you know, I, I think I'veI've learned, you know I've been
burnt enough times by my own,you know, naivete, so to speak,
my my being resolute in you knowI come here and do a good job
and and actually I think, whatreally kind of made me feel that
(47:28):
way.
I remember tell a quick story Ihave beer stories but I
remember there was this job andthis office manager.
I stopped talking to her orinteracting with her and I was
very honest, because sometimeswe're too much on principle.
I'm on principle, but we're toomuch on principle.
So the office manager waschatting some people and I felt
(47:51):
it was inappropriate as anoffice manager to be talking
about another coworker you know,talking with somebody else
telling our business.
You know like I thought it wasinappropriate.
When I mean inappropriate,something never burned me so
much in my life right.
Because as the office managershe had like sensitive,
confidential conversations and Iknew she was telling somebody
(48:13):
else, so I stopped talking toher.
I would say good morning orwhatever, but I don't laugh at
her.
I don't laugh at her Becausewhat that tells me now, like if
I have a problem, that's HRrelated, I don't chat to you.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
My business.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
That's how I translated that.
So when it came to review time,she told you know the partners
that you know I'm being mean tothe staff.
Again, this mean thing keepcoming up because I shut down.
Right, I just shut down and inmy review it came up that I was
mean.
So the owner of the company waslike well, does she do her work
?
He's like yes.
(48:49):
So the owner of the company waslike well, does she do her work
?
He's like yes, well.
So the owner and the partnerwas like well, all that's matter
.
But they were older white guysand they're not about the whole
social business, they're aboutyou doing your job.
So I kind of got away with that.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
But as.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
I moved through other jobs and the bosses were not as
older and they were younger.
I wouldn't have gotten.
I can't get away with oh she'sa hard worker you know, and you
know it would go.
So that was kind of when thereality and you know, maybe the
bosses were older but they werekind of transitioning.
So the other stakeholders, theother people that had the ear of
(49:27):
people who had more influence,you know, were younger so that
didn't work out for me.
But at the end of the day.
I still worked hard and it wasit.
So they can't get you on yourhard work.
They're going to get you on theinterpersonal skills, the
social, the social aspects.
So you know that's part of thestrategy that you know I kind of
(49:51):
talk about and these are theconversations that I try to have
with you know, when my of talkabout and these are the
conversations that I try to havewith you know, when my daughter
was in high school, like theparents, like we kind of have to
start having differentconversations with our kids
because we're not preparing them.
You know, to deal with what nowbecomes almost 80% of corporate,
how you interact with yourcoworkers as opposed to the work
(50:12):
that you're delivering.
That takes such a bigger impacton your job and the longevity
of your job.
Regardless of what they say, oh, we value work.
That's not the experience ofpeople of color or, worse, if
you're an immigrant.
That is just not always yourexperience, exactly yeah.
You know.
(50:32):
So thank you guys for joiningme to have this conversation.
I think we talked more, notonly about the misconceptions of
the Caribbean woman, but themisconceptions of the Caribbean
immigrant and period it's, it's.
There's no quick solution,there's no easy fix.
I think the only thing we couldsay is just keep having these
conversations so, if you'relistening, you don't feel like
(50:54):
you're the only one that isgoing through this.
To be continued, moreconversations.
Thank you, alicia and Deanna,for being part of this
conversation and, like I like tosay at the end of the show,
walk good.
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