Rings of Fire: The Cost of Faith and Patience ft. Matt Clemmer

In this episode, our guest Matt Clemmer shares a personal story from 1995 when he was on the run facing a lengthy prison sentence while his father was an undercover DEA agent. He describes the intense situation of raids, being on the run, and questioning how long authorities would search for him. Matt reflects on a transformative moment he calls a "God encounter" that changed his path. 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
The story Aaron's referring to, guys, is back in
1995, I was on the run looking at 25 to life in prison. Meanwhile,
my dad was undercover DE agent most of my life. So obviously our
relationship at the time wasn't totally tight. You know,
this was in 1995. So before the technology we have
today, it was the old school days where there are vans parked, you

(00:22):
know, sting operations. My mom's house got raided. My grandmama's house
got raided. Like, phones were tapped. I was on the
run. And while I was on the run, I was told, I
wondered, how long has a guy got to be on the run before they quit looking
for you? And at the time, someone told me about 15 years,
you know, and maybe a year into running, I

(00:44):
started to get a little tired, but I was willing to live that
life. Somewhere along the way, I just sum it up by saying I
had a God encounter on my path, almost like God
showed up and slapped me. Like, boy, what you
doing? Like, in that moment, we
call it God's sore spirit. Like, whew, I

(01:04):
had such an encounter of so much love and so much
peace that fear almost left me in condemnation.
Shits about to go down. I'm
feeling something in my spirit. Chats
and Tats with Aaron De La Vedova. Hello,

(01:33):
my friends, uh, beautiful community of
chats and tats. I love you people, man. The DMs
I've been getting late lately from you guys. Uh, it's like, so
cheesy to say it's like a new family. Thank you for all
that love. I really do appreciate it. It ain't easy coming up
here and, uh, putting yourself out to the world and just the technical

(01:55):
work of it all and the money and everything and the time away from family.
So, uh, I don't even know if I'd be doing it anymore if it wasn't for you guys. So
just want to start with a moment of gratitude. Thank you. Thank you. Thank
you. Keep it coming. Share it with your friends. I appreciate it
more than, you know, today's guests, how'd this go down? I
started listening to a podcast called the tattoo guardians podcast. Obviously

(02:17):
these guys do a tattoo flavored podcast. I was checking it
out. It's awesome. You guys should also check out a lot of good episodes
on there, especially for tattoo artists, but everybody alike. And
there was an episode with this gentleman where he kind of told his life
story to two part episode and the whole thing and i mean.
Goosebumps, man, like I was very, very

(02:39):
touched by this man's story. And I'm not going to
get into why I reached out. I said, could you tell it on my
program? And he said, absolutely. He flew here to yesterday
from Dayton, Ohio. I should just say that's where he's from. He's
a father of three. He's a husband. He's a tattoo artist.
He's the owner of his own tattoo studio in Dayton,

(03:01):
Ohio, aisle nine tattoo. So with all that being
What an honor, brother. Well, thanks for coming. That's, you know, to
fly out here for it. That means a lot. That's not easy. We're all busy and
Yes, brother. I appreciate you and just you opening your

(03:23):
home to me. It's an honor to get to sit at this table with you. What
I meant it, you know, like, uh, okay, so what am I up to? What do
I, what am I all about? I don't know. I think people listen to the show a lot.
We would know a bit of this, but for maybe, maybe it's your first time listening, but
I'll just get into me a little bit. I typically don't, but I think this

(03:44):
is important because what resonated with me in
that story, you know, it's because I've, I've been through
similar things like that. And I, and because I have, I
knew on a deeper level how difficult what
you chose to do in those situations was, and I
just, man, the respect went through the roof for me in those moments. But

(04:07):
anyway, I'm a seeker. I have been reading spiritual texts and
philosophical texts my whole life. I don't know why, I
was raised Catholic. Maybe I do know a little bit why. The
Catholic Church didn't feel right. I
used to say things like it was a bunch of bullshit. I don't say that anymore. I
don't throw the baby out with the bathwater anymore. I think the Catholic

(04:30):
religion is beautiful. You can't judge a system
by its members. Of course there's going to be some shitheads in there. There's
a shithead everywhere. You guys all still shop at Costco.
Let me tell you, there's a manager there named Rick. He's a dick. I'm
kidding there. I just made that up. But I'm sure there is a dick manager,
some Costco somewhere, but you're still going to go get some groceries there. So

(04:52):
you get what I'm saying. But, um, but yeah, that, that kind of sent me on a quest, you
know, like what else is there out there when it comes to what we
are, who we are, the universe, what is this all about? A lot of Buddhism
for me, a lot of Taoism for me, a lot of meditation for me, a lot of
hallucinogenics. for me, and I'm still on the path I'm
seeking. And Matt, I know, is as

(05:12):
well. His story's different than mine. It's weaved much more throughout
Christianity, which I think is beautiful as well. I
have no judgment on any specific path to the
divine, and we share that in common, Matt. But
I think even bigger than that is what you did with it. I mean, dude, there's
just so many people out there that have a belief. I

(05:33):
believe this, I'm a Buddhist, I'm a this, I'm a Catholic. And
then you watch how they walk their life, and then it just seems
there are crucial moments where they
don't really walk the walk. And it's really easy
to walk the walk in life when things aren't so rough,
but what do people do when it's really gnarly? Like

(05:55):
when the shit really fucking hits the fan. And
that really is when you see people's true colors. You guys all know that, it's
obvious. We've all thought somebody was amazing, but when it really came
down to paying back the 50K, nobody got a phone call. You
know, it's moments like that, talking about, you know,
sharing wealth, I'm all about abundance, where's my check? Someone's

(06:17):
not writing me back all of a sudden, you know? So it's
moments like that where you find out what people are really made of. And I think
your story highlights that to a very high degree. I know it was a long time.
Well, not all of it. You have many stories, but the one I'm referencing was from a long time
ago. You are 40-something, 46, 47. I
think I heard you say it once. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Admit it. I'm 50. You're going to be the

(06:38):
young boy here today. I'm 52, OK? So you're the young man
Yeah, I think we can call it that. I think that's where I'm at. You know, it gets to
Oh, dude, I had a birthday. It was like, oh God, six years ago.
And I'm literally celebrating with my wife, with a bunch of people.
And I'm like, I can't believe I think I said 46. And my

(07:00):
wife is there. It stops me. She's like, Aaron, you're 44. And
we had to get out the calculator, and at the end of it, I shit
you not, I was like, oh my God, I'm not 46! And
it felt so good to be two years younger, and the party was
even better. So I know what you mean by that. But the
one specific event I'm talking about, and we're gonna let you talk about it, was

(07:22):
when you were 19, so this is a long time ago. But it did set your
life onto a new course, and I'd like you to tell the audience
about that. Let's have you, I've said enough, I'm gonna shut up, you
Thank you, brother. The story Aaron's referring to, guys,
is back in 1995, I was on the run looking
at 25 to life in prison. Meanwhile, my dad was undercover

(07:44):
DE agent most of my life. So obviously our relationship at the time wasn't
totally tight. You know, this was in 1995. So
before the technology we have today, it was the old school days where
there are vans parked, you know, sting operations. My mom's
house got raided. My grandmama's house got raided. Like, phones
were tapped. I was on the run. And while I was

(08:05):
on the run, I was told, I wondered, how long has a guy got
to be on the run before they quit looking for you? And at
the time, someone told me about 15 years, you know. And
maybe a year into running, I started to
get a little tired, but I was willing to live that life.
Somewhere along the way, I just sum it up by saying I had a God encounter

(08:27):
on my path. Almost like God showed up and slapped me. Like,
boy, what you doing? Like, in that moment, we
call it God's source spirit. Like, I
had such an encounter of so much love and so much
peace that fear almost left me and condemnation.
And I knew that I needed to be somebody

(08:51):
different and go straight home and face the
consequences and take responsibility for who I had
been being. And so I sneaked back into
town and got the best attorney in the world And
went in and consulted with him and he's so good and he was saying
Matt, you know All they got on you is hearsay. They don't have your fingerprints all

(09:13):
these things I just need to go in plead not guilty and I
might get just get this deal thrown out I just tomorrow morning.
We'll go in. I just need you to stay hidden somewhere tonight so
that they don't apprehend you and of course, we're being you
know, I Where could we stay? But my mom had a friend that
lived out in the woods in the middle of nowhere and she couldn't even call her.

(09:33):
And so she just snuck me in the car and we're driving out there. Unknowingly,
when we get to this woman's house, and this woman was like an old prophetess,
spiritual guru chick. When we showed up,
just like the movies, to knock on her door, she just opened it
and said, there you are. Like she had been expecting me.
My mom was all excited, like, oh, thank God. He's going

(09:56):
to get off of this. They're going to throw it out in the morning. You
know what I'm saying? But this prophetess was like real reverence
and real fucking serious. It's like, OK. And
she set my mom aside and looked at me and said, man, I have a word for
you. And she hands me a notebook. And it was three pages of
handwritten And just two days prior, she was in her

(10:17):
kitchen doing dishes and all of a sudden, boom, she had a God encounter and
got a download, three pages, and was writing it out, a
word for me. Then when she finished, she asked God,
okay, great, but this man's on the run. The whole world's looking for him. I
ain't talked to this. How am I going to get this word to him? Not
knowing I was going to be hand delivered on her doorstep. Love

(10:39):
it. I walk inside of it. Mom's celebrating. And
I sit down and I read this word. And the word basically was
a word from God saying, Matt, you need to tell the truth. If
you're really rolling with me, if you're really trusting something, someone
greater than you, you need to tell the truth. What's it going to
be? Oh, and I just knew this

(11:00):
was bigger and greater than man. But brother Aaron, when I walk
back in that morning before we go and I tell my
attorney that story, He got
pissed and thought I was a fucking idiot and crazy. And
he's like, man, that's OK. You know, but if you do that, you're going
to prison. I can't even help you. He's like, man, this

(11:21):
is part of the system. God will understand. You just go in there and say not guilty.
Then you can like live the rest of your life however you want as a free
man. And I knew that I
had to obey what my heart was telling me. And I
knew there's no freedom built on the
foundation of a lie. I just had a knowing. But this one's

(11:42):
got a cost to it, Aaron. You know, this is just like,
are you going to obey that little voice in this
season? It wasn't fucking little, thank God. But man, it was
still a tough choice with my own attorney advising me not
to. You know, and he was my father's attorney, so this
was like legacy for him. And I thank that man for

(12:03):
all that he did for my father and all he's doing for me. But
Dude, I'll pause you just for a second. I want you to go, but I'm
just picturing, uh, all this. And, um, I already
said it earlier, what people do in, in the tightest of
situations is truly defines them. And, uh, and you're
going to continue. But the other part I'm thinking is you're 19. That's

(12:26):
what's crazy. You know, like I could almost buy, not buy,
but, um, see maybe a grown man with
more wisdom behind him or woman. Who'd been through multiple
things in life to know like that's what I got to do but just
I'm just thinking of me at 19 and Yeah For
you to do that at 19 with that level of maturity That

(12:48):
you yeah, I mean developed yet, but you had received this message I
mean obviously so strongly that even your 19 year
old brain is willing to do 25 to life in
be with God than so-called free on
the outside without him. That's the way it felt.

(13:10):
It wasn't me obeying like, hey God, I'm gonna obey you and trust you
to get me out of this. No, it was I'm gonna obey you and
And to be fair, can I stop you there? Because I know a bit more about
the story. What you faced kind of wasn't even fair.
I mean, I think we should say this part just because I think if you don't, people's

(13:32):
assumptions could go wild. Okay. You could say, all right, I mean, just
we could recap it real quick. I mean, you're a young man, you're out there on the hustle.
I mean, I'm not going to sit here and judge. I sold weed and shit in
high school and you were doing a lot of that. You got a little heavier with it. Shit
got taken from you. Some dudes loaned you some money. You owe
them some cash. These are gnarly dudes. If you don't pay them

(13:53):
back the money that got stolen from you, they're going to come fuck you up, fuck your family up, fuck
your friends up. That's right. So out of protection for the people you loved, you're
like, I've got to get 20, whatever it was, 20, 25 K in
like a few days. And even though it wasn't easy, you
just decided I won't hurt anybody or anything, but I'm just going to have to go,
you know, go rob a few places. So two
of those robberies you did, your two buddies thought it was such a

(14:16):
good time, they went on to do like 30 more. That's right. And
so they got popped, they turn on you. But you're
getting charged with 30 of these charges, when really you
were only part of two. So I just, one I wanted to highlight, because that's
what happened, everybody. I didn't want you to think he was out there murdering
babies or something. And no one ever got hurt during

(14:37):
any of that, other than maybe a little trauma, which you admit
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, my goodness. I
don't know how I got so lucky and I'm so thankful. My attorney was

(15:00):
pissed, but we walked in there and now the judge is going through preliminary motion,
just going through the motions like this is just a plea. You
know, so she's like, how do you plea? Expecting me to be like, not guilty,
your honor, just for them to set trial date, whatever. And
I leaned in the microphone and I was like, guilty. And she started going, she
stopped. She's like, I'm sorry, Mr. Clemmer, would you repeat that your plea?

(15:20):
And I leaned in and I said, guilty, your honor. And in that moment,
dude, it was like in the spirit realm, the
winds came through. I
don't know what made her say this, but in that moment, she let me go on my own
recognizance and trusting that I'm going to show back up for my sentencing
date in two weeks and hit the hammer. The prosecutors jumped

(15:42):
up in an uproar and was like, we're never going to see this guy again. He's been
on the run. Like, what makes you think he's going to be just be back here to go to prison for
25 and two weeks? Right. And you could see the look of shock
on the judge's face as if something else formed those
words out of her mouth. You know what I'm saying? And I remember sitting

(16:02):
They should have put the cuffs on me and put me in the county and sent
me there and brought me out for sentencing. Yeah, absolutely. You
know what, Aaron? My obedience, that's what I thought was my gift.
And you're like, I'm still going to prison. Thank God for the two weeks to go set
That's right, dude, and I did that thing. I even went and spoke at

(16:24):
places. I went and spoke at like a kids event,
a youth group, like letting them know whatever they're going through, you know what I'm
saying? But I have joy and I'm on my way to prison
and I deserve it. You know what I'm saying? So
two weeks goes by, we go back in and another miracle
happens. And the only thing my attorney can say is like, this dude's

(16:45):
really a good dude, blah, blah. He has
no prior offenses. We could just throw him away, lock
him up, throw away the key. But he proposed. What if we
put him on probation for five years with all this time hanging over
his head? If he ever screws up again, he does the time. But
let's give him a shot, right? I didn't deserve any of that. I'm guilty. Multiple

(17:07):
counts, whatever. That wind came back and
she let me go and agreed to it. Boom, hit the
hammer. You could see shock on her face again. There's an
uproar. The news was there. It's like, my God, what's happening? Guys,
I went to probation and so on fire for life.
I'll bet. Dude, I was sharing my story with everybody. I

(17:29):
was on probation for five years, is what I was set for. I wasn't
even on probation six months on my own. The probation officer
started writing letters to the judge saying, this dude don't even need
to be here. And she brought me back in and let me go. I
before you and I want to go there next because I mean let's just pause that's

(17:51):
an amazing story and I do believe in miracles I absolutely
I've seen them I've had them happen I and I don't
use the word God as much not as religious or in that way I
you know source I just believe there's a consciousness up
there And I don't believe that because someone told me had events
occur where I have it just too many times And I'm

(18:11):
just calling it like I see it not to mention some of the things I've seen on
hallucinogenics And those are my personal experiences, but whatever that's
my belief But I do believe in miracles and I do I do personally believe
that's what happened there, you know some power greater
than us knew in your heart you were gonna pivot and
Because of that pivot you were gonna be lead this

(18:33):
different life, which was gonna be of benefit to a lot
of others. And it knew it so well that it just said, it
did that for you. And so, point being, you pivoted. You
are now in this headspace of, that's fucking done,
never, ever, ever again. And now, you're off
to Bible college. And I don't know if this is appropriate to bring it up, because

(18:54):
another part of the story has to do back at this part, is
when you got, Yeah. Arrested in
your grandma, that thing. And then we can go to the Bible college,
because I want to hear, because you've had a pretty wild life of being a lot of
things until now, and that's a cool part of the story. But this

(19:17):
Oh yeah, of course. Guys, when you go
to jail, it's not for anything good. Not only was
my dad an undercover DEA agent, he ran for mayor of the city. He
was known. And so, guess who, if
you're his boy and you're in any of this, now we in the front page
of the papers, right? And so, full of condemnation, I've shamed

(19:38):
my family, my father's name. You know what I'm
saying? I was prepared for the condemnation. I was prepared for
the shame. I was prepared for everybody to be like, man, what the fuck, man?
You know? But what I was not prepared for, Aaron, is when
my mama picked me up at the jail. We're not
talking. We're just sitting and writing. She's driving. I don't even know

(19:58):
where we're going until we get more down the road. And I realized she's taking
me out to Grandma's farm. And guys, this is what I was not prepared
for. When we pulled up to the farm, I looked up. to
find my grandma and about 40 of my family
members, aunts, uncles, cousins, you name it, who
I'm sure all was disgusted with me, right? But my

(20:19):
grandma was standing there. She had baked a cake. She
had made a welcome home sign, a banner. And
when I rolled in, And she called the whole family and was like,
Matt needs our support now more than ever. And I need you
to come and stand with me for him. And she
enrolled them all into doing it. They didn't want to do it. They didn't fucking
want to do it. But and so she's like, well, then

(20:42):
don't come. But if you come and they all came. Because
of the power and the love of grandma even if they borrowed
her love for a minute, right? So powerful when
we pulled in and the whole family stand there like a parade and I'm blanketed
in shame. I Don't want to get out the car.
I do grandma leaves the porch and meets me in the gravel lane

(21:05):
Why the leaves the family on the porch and Aaron the way she looked at
me? as if I was the greatest man in the
world, and that I could maybe be president of the United States one day.
You know, one of my favorite ancient scriptures is, call those things that
be not as though they were. And man, she
was not talking to the false identity that I was walking in that

(21:26):
day. She was not talking to the boy that had been acting like a
fool. She was talking to my true identity.
Speaking of that man calling those things which be not right now
as though they were mm-hmm in that love that
I began to pivot. It made
me want to make this reception not

(21:49):
in vain. It made me want to go ahead and be someone
worthy of grandma making a cake. It changed
who I'm being. The consequences, the condemnation
don't change. It may have changed, I'm going to be smarter, do it
different. It didn't change my heart. Love,

(22:09):
You know, I talk a lot about empathy and compassion. I
mean, in my own life, in my own, for my
own, my life, right? I want to be a
very compassionate, empathetic person. It's hard. You know, we
all struggle with this. I mean, and when I look out at the world and
I see most of the biggest problems that are happening, I see a lack of empathy, compassion.

(22:32):
and unconditional love. And you know, a technique I always use, like
I have a list of people that have really fucked me over, you know? And
for the record, I've forgiven all of them. I truly have. Like
I want them to have beautiful lives. And the way I've been able to
work on that, I have a little technique where I will close my eyes and
I will visualize the person, And then I don't always know what they looked like

(22:53):
when they were a baby, but I'll make up an image of when they were a baby or
a two-year-old. And I'll see this young man or young woman running
around making paper airplanes, for instance, or drawing
with crayons. And just a seat in
my own mind, like, that's who we all
are. That's the way we come out, okay? And

(23:14):
the world's... fucking rough, and people
get... We all suffer in this lifetime,
and sometimes that suffering, that trauma, can
lead people to become certain things, but that's not what
they are, you know? And so I choose in that moment to
just Love them for what they really are you look past like

(23:35):
you say the identity they're walking in You know the false identity
Yes, you know, yeah, that was not who I was That's who I
was acting like that's who I was being Right in
the condemnation would have further Allowed
me to take on that identity more. Mm-hmm. It
was the opposite. It was love it was what

(23:58):
I didn't deserve that broke the bondage. And
now I'm carrying the torch. My grandma was my best friend.
She lived to be 95. I held her hand till the end. I
was with her for weeks every day. I mean, she
was my best friend and it's her light that I carry
on. for the world. No matter what,

(24:20):
love wins. It already has. And it's bigger than
labels. It's bigger than religion. I'm not even a Christian. Now,
I'm a disciple of Christ, but even Christ wasn't a Christian. He
didn't come to start another religion. He came to abolish all of them. Right.
The biggest reason why people don't go to church today is because they've been to one. And
somehow got hurt, burnt, and turned off. But again, not throwing the

(24:42):
baby out with the bathwater, still being seeking. I have
a good brother, a shaman, and he's an Irish, like
a fucking leprechaun, but he's always like, run from conclusions, boy,
like Neo in the Matrix. because we're usually wrong, right?
And even the Apostle Paul who wrote two-thirds of the New Testament is credited
for revealing all the mysteries of Christ. Him said at

(25:04):
the end there was so much he still didn't know. Let
us keep an open, empty curiosity and compassion
instead of being so quick to say what is and who the
fuck is and to project it on you, right? Even
God, Jesus said like, When they're like, are you God? Are you the Messiah?
He's like, you tell me by the fruit that I bear, right?

(25:27):
Let our lives be our message versus us
just saying one of my favorite quotes from C.S. Lewis, and it says, go
out into all the world and preach the good news. And if you must, use
Yeah, I often say, uh, people are defined. A lot
of people say defined by action. I always say defined by results because

(25:48):
actions can be misleading. People can look like they're doing something
cool and they ain't, or they aren't. So
I always say no results, you know, and what are results?
Do you have a lot of people around you that you love? Do you have a healthy marriage?
You want to give me financial advice? Do you have money? Yeah,
right. Yeah, brother. That's right. Results, man.

(26:10):
Show me your results, and now if you have a result I'm after, I'd
like to hear what you have to say about that. I agree. Hearing
you, and I'll cut you off just quickly because it just comes to mind, but the
actual, I work with a group here called Verb Media, the owner
of that, Michelle, Renee, good friend of mine, When
this is a long time ago, I'm guessing Michelle, you're going to hear this, but forgive

(26:32):
me for some of my, I'm going to skew some of the dates and times, but I don't really think it matters. Bottom
line is she, um, went through a gnarly deal.
I think it was 20 years ago where, um, some gangsters basically,
she worked at a bank and they've been scoping this place out. They figure out
where she lives. They come to the house, they break in, they
tie up her daughter who I got the age wrong here, but she's a

(26:54):
little girl. And they put a piece of what we found out
later was fake piece of dynamite to her chest. They tell
mom, you're going to basically rob the bank for us. If you don't, we're going
to blow up your daughter. So she walks into her own bank, robs
a damn place, comes back. There's a lot
more to the story. Bottom line is these these cats get arrested

(27:14):
and they go to prison. And, um, she basically
flew up there. Two of my, I don't know the whole story here. There's
three of them, but one was like the main guy. And anyway, she,
she flew up to that prison with her daughter on behalf of their parole and
basically said, this man has been in prison for this long. He's
doing these good works and we forgive him. We understand

(27:36):
that's not, you know, he, what he really is isn't what
happened that day. And we beg you to let this man free. And now he
is free, and living a very beautiful life. But the power in that story
of her, like your grandma. And they were
telling him that since he got to prison. Because if he showed up at prison, and
maybe you write the guy a letter, like, just so you know, you motherfucker, you

(27:57):
ruined my life. Yeah, true. He's more likely to
just stay in that identity. But what they
saw, they said the opposite. No, no, no. We know you're not that guy. You're better
than that. We understand their circumstances. You grew up in the hood. You
got involved in gangs. This is where it led you. We forgive you,
and we hope that you can heal and have a

(28:17):
beautiful life, regardless of what happened. And because of that, it inspired
him. And I think he did, I don't mean to get this wrong, but was doing some internal work in
the prison, maybe a ministry of some kind, I don't know what. And
he did get out, but it's a lot like the story of your grandma. When you give
somebody that type of love and forgiveness, that's
Come on, Aaron. Yes, and I've learned. It's the difference,

(28:40):
so many, that life happens for you. So
many people are living in the wrong question and think
that life happens to you Why this fucking happened to me? Why
this happened to me? Why is people doing me that right? Instead
of looking at why it could happen for you
and let alone through you in because of you and

(29:02):
Saying all that and I said that sounds really fucking cool till
the shit hits the fan all this happening for us, right? Great.
Thanks Matt. That was cool. But even then I got
to take my own medicine, right? And
so that's what I look like. When the storm comes, who do we become in
the midst of the storm? And the real question is, can we be thankful for
it all? Even in a weird way, my wife being sick and

(29:26):
bedridden, how's this happening for us? It's been painful.
But it all is the betrayal the people who
turn on us I'm to a place and I thank God for
the Judas's in my life For they have played their perfect
role in the purpose that they were chosen for me in
my life Some of the greatest pains have

(29:48):
been the greatest teachers and who it how it has developed me
Folks and back to you were talking earlier on choice that which felt
like it was meant sent to destroy you is actually
to develop Right? If we allow
the process and I'm not interested
in being a victim, but rather a creative overcomer. Well,

(30:12):
You know what I'm saying? Well, I mean, as you're talking, the
only thing I would add to that is that the one ingredient you're going to need
for that is patience. Because I think a lot of times when
you talk about the laws of karma, for instance, or the lessons that a
tragedy can bring for us, and I can think of all the
ones I've been through, and I can't think of one that hasn't been a blessing. And

(30:33):
I'm going to knock on wood, because I really hope whoever
is in charge of this life and this universe doesn't
feel the need to test me to greater degrees. Yeah, right, right. Like
I'm like scared, like, I get it, I get it. Don't
put me through something gnarly, please. But,
because I haven't been through the worst of things. I've had a blessed life.

(30:55):
And I know there are folks out there who could tell stories that you're just, you know,
they're just, whoa. I don't know if I could walk the
walk if I had that happen to me. Yeah, yeah. But patience is
needed in karma. Patience is needed in this thing you're talking about, because it
doesn't happen immediately. That's the problem with these things. A
lot of folks are just like, well, you talk about karma, this guy

(31:16):
did this to me, and guess what? He's on a boat in Bora Bora right
now. Shit, that ain't karma. I'm like patience and
not to mention He might be on that boat and Bora Bora and doing such things for
the rest of his life The payment he's paying might happen in
the next life. It might happen in heaven It might be
happening now on the boat in his heart. I don't know.

(31:36):
I don't care. It's not my fucking job I don't that's
not my job the some I other creator
Dude, Aaron, you're so right. You are so right. You
know, it's bringing up, and I don't even know where this is, it's a specific ancient
scripture where it says, count it all joy when

(31:57):
you face diverse trials and tribulations because it
worketh in you patience. And then it says to
allow patience to have its perfect work in you, making
you whole and complete, lacking and wanting Like
what you're going to do when you get to a point where patience has such a perfect work

(32:17):
in you, you're so whole and complete, you want and lack nothing.
Well, even if it's seek revenge or karma or justice, I
want, I need nothing. You're right. That patience
Yeah, I think just from a practical standpoint, I mean, I'm with you
on the big picture of everything you're saying, but I just think I wanted to highlight that. You
know, you gotta trust and you gotta be patient. Faith.

(32:41):
You don't need faith till you fucking need it. Yeah. You
I hated that word when I was young, faith. I was just like, what the
fuck are you telling me to do? I don't get it. I'm
supposed to trust things that are untrustworthy, but
now I understand that faith doesn't have anything to do with man. It
has to do with something beyond us, right? And

(33:04):
it took life, real events to occur to
gather my faith. Yeah, like I was never gonna do it because
someone told me or it was in a book like I some do and
I and I fuck I The fucking 20 hits of acid later
and that's like I had an encounter, you know, whatever It's
similar, you know for me a little of other DMT and some stuff, but but

(33:25):
yeah events where I I witnessed and felt it and that's fine
But yeah, patience, faith, it's a big part of that recipe.
And people get caught up on, because even when you bring up faith, then
people immediately get hung up, oh, I don't believe in God, so you know what
I'm saying? And again, let's not be so quick to
even define God, right? I

(33:47):
believe you are God, Aaron. Oh, I believe everything's God, this table.
I don't believe there's any disconnect. And so even
for those of you listeners, you can have faith in
your highest self, the highest version of you. Meaning,
I don't believe your answers are outside of me. When
people say, I don't know and know what to do, when we really get honest,

(34:10):
we do know what to do. But we don't know at all. But
this is why clarity comes in the doing. You know, I was standing
out in my backyard. It was pitch black cloud coverage. I can't
see out there. And I was remembering there's a scripture talking about Knowing
what to do. Enlightenment. God. Source. The universe. Talking about
being like a lamp unto your feet. A light just unto your path.

(34:30):
Now I'm standing in the dark and I click the lamp on at my feet. And
now can I see out there? No. But what can I see?
Just the next three steps in front of me. I'm gonna trust
and just take those three steps because I can see what to do here. Now
can I see out there? No, but guess what? The lamp came with me. Now
can I see out there? No, but I can see the next three. Trusting

(34:53):
the process. I don't know what's come down down there, but
I'm trusting that when I get there, when we get there, I will know
how to take those three steps just like I did here, but
clarity comes in the doing. So many of us get stuck in analysis paralysis,
slammed into imposter syndrome, stuck on the starting line and don't get
to step in any of it because we don't have a fucking crystal ball.

(35:15):
But clarity comes in the doing, and that takes faith. Just
to take the three and trust that the next three will be revealed
So true, dude. So true, man. I've said that
in different words throughout my life, with relationships, business, you
know, everything I've ever accomplished that was worth doing,
the things I cherish today, I did not know if they were going to

(35:36):
work out. And nobody ever gets to know that. No,
that's right, brother. The system we're in, it's a pretty cool, like,
I always often think, like, man, this is a really rad
invention, whoever invented it. Like, if you want to
develop a soul's character, Man, this
is perfect. Cause look, to show you the next hundred

(35:58):
steps ain't gonna develop character. Come on. Anyone could
run to the fucking ice cream sundae that's on a table 200 feet
from them. Anyone can do that. How about walking three
steps and then revealing there's a pothole you need to turn right.
Walk three more. You know, and it's that unknown that I
think causes a lot of the anxiety we see in people in general, is

(36:20):
we want to know. We want to know we're safe. We want to know it's all going to be okay.
And we don't get to know that. We don't. And just got
this is I mean we got microphones in here this place is real cool you're
fucking cool I mean it must be nice like it's you know must be
nice you know so many people look at guys
like us and be like man like you got it good like

(36:44):
you know as if like poof this just appeared right right
but no one knows the price or the cost behind the
scenes. And I want to encourage anyone that looks at anyone and
thinks it must be nice to catch yourself and
replace it with, who would I need to be to have a
life like that? Who would I need to be for those things to show up

(37:04):
in my life? Instead of just being like, must be nice. They're fucking lucky.
Yeah. Nobody that, you know, and I'm not talking about material things.
Cause there's a lot of people with nice shit, but I'm talking about people with what
I would call beautiful lives, you know, really, really cool lives. I
don't, and I only know a handful of them, lucky to know even
a handful, and know them enough to know their whole story. And

(37:25):
all of them walked through the rings of fire it
took to get nobody, I don't know anyone who just lives that well
none of them knew those rings were coming and when they were coming
and they didn't even know that they were signing up for all of them you know I had
a buddy of mine tell me this the other days like sometimes you know
God will show you the beginning in the end but he won't show you the middle cuz you'd

(37:46):
be like no fucking thanks I'm out yeah right like who
I've been developed as even this year has
been there have been so many great great gifts even
within me within my wife within my family but the cost of
If I would have been told beforehand, man, you're going to
get these gifts and these rewards, but it's going to cost you this. It's going to cost your

(38:07):
friend's life. It's going to cost you betrayal. It's going to cost your wife being
paralyzed. Like it's going to fucking cost you. I would have
immediately said, thank you, but no thanks. Can I be the
one paralyzed? Why is it my wife got to, right? If I
would have been shown those rings of fire, I would have said, no,
don't develop me. I'll stay right here. Yeah. Right. But

(38:27):
this is where the trust comes in because we had no idea the storms
were coming, what storms were in, how long they were fucking going
to stay. Most people, when a storm comes, they hunker down
and they wait on the storm to pass and then they live again. But
what happens when the storm doesn't pass? Who do you become in the
midst of the storm? Right. And this has been the opportunity we've

(38:49):
been given, not waiting on everything to be better again, to
live again or to exhale. Who do you become in the midst of the
storm? And can you be thankful for the storm? Yeah.
You know, oh, the cost can be great. But
in that place, I'm telling you, Aaron Payne has become such
a great teacher. But the beauty and the gifts that we have

(39:10):
within us are priceless. Like you said, it's
not about material things, right? You know, a handful of people. And
Bob Marley said it best when he said some people are so poor, all
Yeah, that's so true. I'm just thinking of like, you know, I love philosophical
discussions. I love spiritual discussions. It's my favorite thing to hang out

(39:31):
and chat about. I'm having a blast with you today. Good. But
I've learned over the years my way, everyone has their own special
signature. I like these practical examples. I like to use
practical real life examples. Love that. You know, hearing you
say with that right there, if I had known what I
was going to pay to get where I am today, I would have gone

(39:52):
a different way. You still would have had some other thing. We're
all gonna fucking walk through these rings of fire. You can't get out of this game
that we're in. But, you know, tattooing, for
instance. I love art as a kid, my whole life, and
when I found tattooing, something exploded in
me that was so bright and powerful. I never felt it before. I'm like, this is

(40:13):
it. I'm gonna do this. This is gonna be calling,
this is it. And if someone had told me, a saint
appeared in the room and said, okay, here's what's gonna happen. Your first boss
is gonna rob you for five grand. Your second teacher is
gonna threaten to cut your hands off and try to hunt you down. Your third teacher
is going to be a heroin addict who's going to put a fucking knife to your neck while you're

(40:35):
tattooing someone and tell you, if you do X and Y again, I'm going
to fucking kill you. I would probably be a Pixar illustrator. But
I didn't know. And as those, it eventually flattened
out for me. And it's been quite a beautiful career for the last 25 years. But
yeah, those things did happen, and ignorance is bliss, and

(40:58):
I wouldn't change them for the world. They're beyond
beautiful now. They're hilarious, really. They're cool,
they're cool, and I'm stoked. And I can say that because no
one did cut my throat, and I have both my hands, but I
kind of know now. I think it was a lot of hyperbole at
the time, but at the time, I didn't. I

(41:18):
was fearing for my fucking life. And that's how much I still was
like, fuck this. I'm still doing it, man. These people in this industry are fucking
crazy. There's got to be a way to get out of crazyville and
just do these, this, this beautiful art form, you know? And
I eventually found that. Um, but, uh, but you're right. If you
knew, that's how the, that's how the system set up.

(41:38):
Right. But those are the things that developed you. And I'm sure even pointed to
the leader that you are today. You know, so oftentimes I've learned
Yeah. Well, I learned a lot of that from them and then I had the good ones too.
Totally me too. And so it was all like, man, I believe
all that happened for you. Oh, it did. Oh no. A hundred percent. I

(41:58):
could see. But when you're in it. Yeah. It's
hard to be like when you're in it, it's like this happened to
me today. This motherfucker put a knife up to me versus
in a weird way, this happened for me today. This motherfucker put
Well back to the patience. Yeah. The value of those lessons didn't

(42:19):
come for, oh God, I'm guessing a little, but I think I
started feeling it at the way I speak now. Maybe
eight years later, you know, because of those
immediate first eight years, I was resentful, angry
and all that stuff, you know, and pissed off and also a little PTSD, you
know, just paranoid, like, you know, in the in the industry of

(42:41):
tattooing. And I kind of hid out from tattooing for a lot
of years because of and I got a few more stories like that. I don't need to go
tell them all. But I was just like, dude, that's why I opened Guru. I
didn't want to open a shop. I was like, I need to create a little fucking safe place
and monitor who comes in and out of it. Yeah. Cause there's some
bad people around me sometimes, you know? So

(43:02):
yeah, it took me a lot of years, patience, right? The
me today would have gotten through that a lot quicker and learn those lessons probably
Love the things that love you back, man. Yeah, just love
And I love that even in our industry, you found them, your

(43:24):
Yeah. Yeah. And that's not even hard, you know, that
isn't really, that's the easiest part. Yeah. Because what you are is what attracts
towards you. Again, patience. It doesn't happen, you know,
just tomorrow. But over time you end up with a group around
you that's a lot like you. So check in with yourself. where
you're at, what you really are all about, because you can't hide

(43:45):
from that. If you have shadow parts of
you, you'll find characters around you with those shadow
parts. Another quick example, I have from my
life, and maybe it's just my nature, but there's a part of
me that's a fighter. I think of
doing violent... For the record, everybody, I've

(44:06):
never really had an altercation. I've never even punched.
I think in seventh grade, I beat up a kid. He put lip gloss
on my favorite shirt and I'd lost it. But I'm not a fighter. And
I mean, I've never pulled a gun. I've never done any of that stuff, but I have
those feelings in me. I think about it in certain specific moments,
like, man, I'm about ready to get up and fucking kill somebody. I

(44:26):
want to fuck this dude up or whatever's going on. It comes up
in me. And this is about 10 years ago. I had some folks
around me in the industry that had those qualities and
they were bringing it around me and people like them around me. And I was frustrated
by that. And it really, I had kind of a God moment and
it was, it was like, uh, I remember I was, I was upstairs

(44:48):
at my other location. I was doing some remodeling late at night by
myself and uh, I was so heartbroken
about all of the negative, not all, because there was a lot of beauty,
but these negative people that kept showing up, whether
they be tattooers that worked for me or a neighboring shop or,
you know, little things were going on. And I just started

(45:10):
crying. I was like, and I remember looking up, not at God for
me, but just the universe and just saying, man, what the fuck? Like,
I'm a nice guy. I'm not even, I'm just trying to create art
for people. Like, I'm just an artist. Like, why are, Why
do these people keep coming around? And I had like a
flash of a realization. Like you, Aaron, carry

(45:32):
violence inside of you. You still have some of
that in you. And so you're attracting it. You
know, people identify. Another person with even more violence sees
a friend in me. Like, oh, I could get along with this dude. I can
sniff it. He's got a little bit of me in him. That's right. Yep. So
those became my circle to some degree. Yep. I also had

(45:52):
other little polite little Buddhas around me too. But
that night, I remember making, this is actually leading me to a pretty powerful
story. In that moment, I had a circumstance. I'm not really going
to get into it because I don't want to drag up the past, but my
business I felt was being maybe threatened. And
I had that moment and I recognized that and I didn't get

(46:12):
rid of that part of me and I still haven't but I'm aware of
it and I see it and when I see it come up, I
stand back and I look at it. I don't become it. That's right. Oh, I
love that. But the weirdest thing is that thing
that was happening that I was afraid of two weeks later
disappeared. And there's, I mean, physically,

(46:34):
it was gone. And I was like, ha, that's pretty
coincidental that I had that realization about
that. And then really since that day, that
problem really hasn't come back. Everything's been clean. I mean, I've had my little
run-ins with this little guy. Oh, this guy lied about something. Oh, that guy
owes me a little bit of money. But like true violent characters around

(47:00):
I love that, Aaron, and I love we're all on the journey, like
you said, guys, I'm definitely in it with you.
I don't have truce or all the answers. I've got some
pretty cool ideas and just my own experience, you know, but
I love what you said right there. You know, there's a difference between observing
and absorbing. Yeah. Even

(47:22):
ourselves, we're so quick just because we have a thought
to take it on as our identity and then judge ourselves for
even having the thought. But you are not your thoughts, right?
And I love how you were able to separate and
notice something within you and observing it
more than becoming judge. You were observer. Versus judge

(47:45):
and this is a constant dance always even if whatever
is still in you and notice when you get triggered
Notice when you have non-useful thoughts Non-useful
thoughts I can notice and observe them and not make them my
identity and judge myself that I had one I Right?
To be loving and patient with ourselves and our own growth right

(48:08):
now, instead of me waiting until
I be or figure something out. How about today? How
about like, who do I need to be to just be at peace with who I
am today while I'm along the way on the journey? You
Agreed, man. Yeah, in that moment, I've often thought about what
it was that spoke to me or sent that message to me.

(48:30):
And at first it was, I really was like, it's the, it's the universe. And
ultimately I think it is. But, um, you spoke earlier about
the answers are inside of you. And, uh, and I, and I, now I
see it a little different. I see it as my higher self. Um, what
is a higher self? Well, you know, again, my, the practicality, the
farmer in me, I like practical ways of

(48:51):
trying to put these ideas into
practical words. Think about it, everybody. You come
out of your mother, and what are
you in that moment? Now, you're an infant. People
have to feed you. Let's go forward. You're two. Is it
really in anyone's nature to think about beating

(49:12):
somebody up at two? I mean, somebody could come up and
slap the shit out of a two year old, and he's probably not gonna think about, I'm
gonna fuck you up. So that's your higher self, that's what you are.
You take on layers, trauma, events occur to you. This
stuff isn't really you. That's not really who I
am. I'm still that two-year-old, that little baby. That's my

(49:35):
soul. And that's, I think, who spoke to me that day. And
then you can go further by saying, well, what is my soul? Well, that's everything.
What is everything? Well, that's God, you know? But I don't know.
I just think that's a good way to look at it. Remember, in
your worst moments, that's not who you are. And
that's okay. I've definitely said things I regret.

(49:56):
I've definitely done things I regret. And anyone who tells you
they haven't... You're talking to a liar right
there, because no one escapes that. That's not really who
you are. So how to create that separation, I just, back to
that baby, I just visualized myself as a child. And remember, that's
what you are dude, that's not your real, what you want to do right now isn't

(50:17):
Well it's funny you bring that up, because most of the world don't know who
they are. and somehow don't realize that
they have a say-so in that. Even a fucking vote, right? Most
of the world's living like they are thermometers,
and they will decide who they are from what the world says
about them, who they are, or the level acceptance social things,

(50:39):
right? And so most of the world's operating like they're thermometers. Hey, how
are you today? I don't know. Let me check what happened this morning. How am I feeling? What
messages did I get? uh you know it's about 60 degrees out
it says do the environment versus being
your own thermostat and not a thermometer. But no,
this is who I am and it don't matter what's going on out here. I

(51:01):
am turning my own dial and taking responsibility. Who
am I being in the midst of the storm? The rest of the world says shit's
fucked, but my inner man says that shit is fucked,
That's a good analogy. I like that one. Yeah. Good
visualization. A good way to put it. Well, so

(51:21):
You, this happens, beautiful story, your choice
that you made, amazing. Your grandma's unconditional
love to make that move pivoted you in a way, yeah,
I mean, who knows what you would have done if the family
had said to you, you're a piece of shit, you've embarrassed everybody, now

(51:42):
And Aaron, I've always wondered what would have happened if I wouldn't have
obeyed my inner voice, and I would have obeyed man, and
I went in there and if I'd have lied and said not guilty, who knows what
You might have still went to prison. Even if you didn't go to prison, like you
said, a life can't be built on a lie. That's right, brother. And
you're obviously a changed man at this point, and

(52:05):
you head off Bible... You're a believer now, man. You just
had God in a very direct, obvious way.
A lot of times for most people, it's a little more subtle. That's pretty fucking direct.
to be handed a letter from a psychic or a seer from
him to you, to do what the letter said against all

(52:25):
professional advice, and to still be set free, and
then to have your grandmother lead a campaign to show
you forgiveness and patience and empathy,
and show you what she
saw the real you. I know you're not that guy that did those things.
Snap out of it. Get back to who you really are, man. Come on.

(52:46):
Because she knows, she held you when you were fucking a little baby. Come on. She remembers
what you really are. Yes. And so those events occur and
I can't, I mean, If there's anything that's gonna turn somebody into a
believer, I mean, that, I think, would turn anybody. So obviously, you're
on the path now, and you're so strongly on the path, you
head off to, like, I'm gonna make a life of religion, or

(53:09):
of spirituality. I'm like, this is the path. Take us down the road, or
Yes, but one, I just wanna touch on, you said Grandma remembered who
I really was, right? That's why she was calling those things which be
not right now as though they were because she remembered my true identity. Even
ancient scripture says we all have forgotten what manner
of man and woman we are. Meaning we all need to be reminded every

(53:30):
day of who we truly are because we forget. Yeah. Right. And
so a lot of my clients that I work with, a lot of my coaching
clients, we will create, I'll call it their document, your
own I am statements of who you truly are, not what you
do, but who you are at your core. And I
have my clients, even myself, take this on and they

(53:51):
write them every day. They declare it. They speak it over themselves. The idea
is they foster it themselves so that then when we're
going out in the world and other things trigger, try and tell you that you're not
who you are. who
you are, and you can remind yourself, I am loving kindness.
Love is I am that I am the universe. I

(54:12):
am right. I am a father. I
am the greatest husband like you get to create who
you are. And that's what we step into because we're all creators. We
are co creators with the universe. Most people have given
their power away. Your power cannot be
taken from you. The only thing that can be done is for you to be deceived and

(54:33):
just give your own power up. We're going to take the power back.
That's what I do with my people. And they step into who they really are
and we create it every day at every moment. Now,
out of that place of being, when they do whatever it is they do, it's
way more powerful because it's not about where they're
going to, it's about where they're coming from. We're all up to doing so

(54:56):
much. We get to, we got to, all these to dos. But who are we
I'm gonna have to give a shout out right now to Mitch
Horowitz, amazing human being and
author. I've read many of his books. Most recently, Cosmic
Habit Force. Mitch, I know we've been talking. I'm gonna clip

(55:18):
this, put it on Instagram and tag you. You gotta come on my show. I know you're a
busy man, but we're gonna do this, because you changed my life, as
I know you've changed many. And it's funny that you do this with your clients, because
in that book, And I hadn't done this before. He has had
me write, what are you? What do you believe in? What's important to
you? What defines you? And you write it down, and it's

(55:38):
simple. You get up every morning and you read it. And you adjust it
every day. I make a little, not every day, but I get up every day and I
open my phone, I sip on my yerba mate, and
I read this thing silently to myself. And I've edited it slightly. But
it's funny that you do that with your students, because that is a powerful thing.
Because life, and especially today, man, with our connectivity and

(55:59):
the busyness, I think this would be relatively easy if we lived in
a tribal community of, say, a hundred folks. I mean, when
you were just walking through the woods every day collecting berries. I mean,
hell, go do that for two weeks. We all come back to our source
after enough time in nature. The problem we got now is the
nuclear world, you know, and then throw the phones in there and all

(56:19):
the other shit And man, it is so fucking easy to get lost and
forget what you really are and get caught up in the Who just texted
you and what you just read on instagram about our president and
what's going on overseas and all that You know for you guys
listening, man. I recommend you do that. Just write it down and read it once a day
It seems a little redundant, but trust me it sets the course

(56:40):
for my day each day to remind me, like, come from
this place, no matter what happens today. And don't get
Well, yeah, and this thing called mastery, there's no rival point. It's a lifestyle.
You said redundant, but a lifestyle because we're all doing something
redundant every day. But is it serving you like the thoughts

(57:01):
that we are thinking? I just propose we take control
as the creators we were created to be and we can actually create
our own life. because we say so and by taking responsibility
of who am I being. Even when you're noticing, like, I
still had a lot of anger in me and was tracting that. But then when
you had that counter noticing that in you, even when that

(57:24):
come up, if you made a new creation of who you are, that I am loving kindness.
When the opposite shows up, number one, you notice. Number two, you don't
judge yourself. You observe and you love yourself and remind yourself,
oh, I'm not that. I am loving kindness. Boom. Step into it.
It's got to be redundant of who I am because the whole world's trying to
tell me otherwise. The world's trying to make me be a

(57:49):
Well, and I think it highlights the fact that we all need a practice. Yes.
Yes. Because I fell into that trap too. It's
like, read a powerful book, have a powerful hallucinogenic
experience. It always wears off. It does. And
that happened to me many times where I caught myself months later behaving
in ways where I'm like, what are you doing? Fuck, man, you were just telling

(58:13):
everybody in the room three months ago this, and now
you're being jealous of somebody, or you're being resentful.
I mean, you're not even walking the old way. But yeah, you do have to have a
practice, a routine of practice, because it does
wear off. And that's where I think religion is really cool. because
I'm like an independent, I'm out here doing my spiritual journey

(58:35):
kinda, not on my own, because I've got folks like you coming into my
life and I've got beautiful people all around me, but I don't have an organization,
I don't have a place to go on Sunday. I could, but I don't. So
especially for, and I know a lot of people are in that boat nowadays. Same here. So
especially for folks like us, You know, develop some kind
of routine like that that keeps you centered because we

(58:59):
Yes, yes, yes, yes. It's good. It's real, real
important. Either way, your day's going to run. Are you running
your day or is it running you? Right. And it takes and that's where
you factor in the routine and the patience with our own personal
growth. You know, you and I are older, so we grew up watching Popeye.
Well, I have an identical twin brother, by the way. I'm the oldest of five boys

(59:20):
grew up on the farm. Well, I remember when it was summertime after,
we're about to go into junior high. So obviously I was
hoping to grow and become bigger before school started, right? So
right when summer started, man, we went down and I force fed
a bunch of spinach, grandma canned spinach, just like Popeye, right?
ate some spinach, ran around the barnyard, and did like 10 push-ups.

(59:42):
Before I did that, I stood against the door, had my brother Todd measure me.
Then we went and ate spinach, did push-ups, and I ran back up, had him measure
me to see how much I'd grown. And he was like confused,
because I didn't grow at all. I'm like, fuck him, that's
not enough spinach. We ran down, forced that, ate some more, did more push-ups,
went back up, and he measured me. We were both so discouraged, Aaron, because

(01:00:04):
I did not grow at all. What did I do? I just forgot about
it, went outside to be a free boy and played, right?
Now here comes fall time and I'd forgotten all about it. School's
about to start. And I saw that mark on the bedroom door and just thought about
it. I hadn't been working or eating spinach. I was just playing, being me.
I went and measured, had Todd measure me. And to our shock, I

(01:00:25):
had grown so much, inches. And
oftentimes growth happens when we're not focused on
our own personal growth. I was discouraged when
I was measuring myself, focusing, am I growing? Am I growing? Discouragement. But
when I just let go and was free to go and
play and adventure in the adventure of living

(01:00:50):
Yeah, that's beautiful and cute. I'm just picturing
Yeah, but that's even true today because so many people, even
in this conversation, I don't want this to be a measuring stick for anybody,
for them to decide where they're at in their spiritual journey or any
of that. Those scales are fucked. This is why it's

(01:01:10):
so important for us just to love ourselves right
where we're at. If you're listening to this, to be thankful
and to ask, like, what's in this for you? Like, what
is your best self telling you through
this conversation right now? Hallelujah to
I love it. I love it. You're cool, man. I love talking with

(01:01:32):
you. It's powerful. It's
cool. I want to get back to your story because I want the listeners to
hear it, you know, to today. So this happens. Obviously, they've
Then what? Which was crazy because now I love it,
you know, and I'm so thankful I didn't get caught up in religion. You

(01:01:53):
know, so many people, so many of us that are hurt definitely don't like Christians
because we met one. You ever seen the bumper sticker that says, Jesus, save us
from your followers. You know what I'm saying? And
I learned so much. But somehow I'm just thankful
that I didn't become religious in the deal. And
that's how I've always been able to see a difference between God and just

(01:02:13):
man and religion. And I was in Bible college for years. And after
I graduated for a while, I was clean shaven, suit and tie, traveled
the country and spoke in churches all over, right? Indeed,
I was living in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and I wanted to walk in more power, Aaron.
Like, why was it sometimes I prayed for people and a miracle happened,
and other times I prayed for somebody and nothing would happen? Look,

(01:02:35):
it must be me. I'm going to die to myself. So I threw
myself into strong, long, fast regiments, 21-day
fast in my Formula for the day, I would pray for
six hours a day before I started my day. And I set myself
up for a six month regimen. I'm going on long fast. I'm waking
up and I'm praying from 6 a.m. to noon every day for six months straight. Surely

(01:02:56):
I will come out the other side of this deal, transform. That
was my plan. So I walk in the prayer closet and I'm pacing
six hours a day. Dude, I'm maybe a month or so into
this regimen. Already gone on long fast. And
dude, I was in my walk-in one day, I was on hour four and I was just
sad. Wasn't feeling it anymore. Just like, welcome

(01:03:18):
to the human experience. And I walked out of my prayer closet on
hour four and didn't go the full six hours. Was in so
much condemnation with myself. Like, man, I guess I didn't want
it. I wasn't willing to pay the cost, blah, blah, blah. Well, fuck
it. Everything I did up this point don't count. I'm hitting the reset button I'm
starting the whole deal over tomorrow And I go back in

(01:03:38):
like day one at the beginning of the mountain and I'm praying like this
just heavy on me And dude in that moment
God himself showed up to bitch slap me And
he was like, Matt, you know, when God and I talk, you know, he was like, Matt,
what the hell are you doing? What are you trying to purchase or
obtain right now that I've already purchased and obtained for you

(01:03:59):
as you on your behalf? You get an A for effort. I like it.
But brother, it's time for you to go be free. And he downloaded a
whole new vision. And he literally was like, I want you to take that suit and tie
off. I want you to leave this place. I was in Tulsa, Oklahoma at the time. I'm
sending you back home. to meet with your brother and I want you to start a
rock band." And he was real clear, I don't need another cheesy

(01:04:20):
Christian rock band to play for pizza party lock-ins. I
need you to be real out there on the front lines. You down? Let's do this.
Aaron, at that time, I had never sang. I didn't know how to sing. This
was a God thing. But when I went back and told all the other
ministers, like I had just heard from heaven, surely
they're connected to the same spirit I just heard from. You'd have thought I just told

(01:04:44):
He's definitely possessed. He's definitely. And they were like, man, you've got the greatest
calling on your life. And this is the enemy's way of taking out all this man
shit, manipulation. But I again was faced the
crossing road. Who am I going to listen to, man? or
God. And I chose God every fucking time.
And that's when I went back and learned how to

(01:05:05):
sing and started a rock band with my twin brother. And fucking
that became my new form, my new calling
My twin brother, Todd, he was always, I was a drummer. I
I still love the miracle of this moment, but I mean, I want to get it right.

(01:05:25):
So my twin brother is a guitarist, singer, songwriter. But leading up
to those days, I loved music. And when he would sing like an
Alice in Chains song or whatever, like play it up, you know, I
would try and sing with him and he would stop the song and look at me and
be like, hey man, don't sing. I was
bad. That's why when I came back and you know and I
told my brother I was like when I told the ministers they were like dude

(01:05:48):
you can't stay here I called my brother he hopped in the car 14 drove
to Tulsa from Ohio 14 hours later to pick me up and I
told him dude I'm called to be a front man dude and he's like for real I'm
like dude do you think you could teach me how to sing and that's where
it happened he's a better singer than me even though I became the front
man And

(01:06:09):
how did it go with the band? Dude, it went amazing and
we toured and it got to the point where we thought all our dreams were coming true.
In 2003 we were offered multiple record deals. Sony
won because they had the most money. I'm talking like multi-million dollar record
deal. Back then TRL was real hot on MTV, national distribution,
the whole deal. Until I met the producers and heard what they were

(01:06:30):
gonna turn us, wanted to turn us into, which was It was nothing like who
we were or who we were. I thought they was kids. But when they were
serious, I looked at my brother, he was like, nah, to me, no
dollar amount was worth the whole world knowing me as someone I wasn't. I
didn't want to not have anonymity, go out to dinner with my family. Everyone
know me as the guy that sang that one song that even I didn't like. I

(01:06:51):
don't care if they were offering me $10 million in national distribution, not
for the world to know me as someone that I'm not. And that's the day
we hung up the microphone. I cut it. I feel like we went all the way to the top.
And at that point, Aaron is when I was like, well, I got
to figure out a new career. I can't keep playing for bar tabs. And

(01:07:12):
Okay, and you've had some you may have
love I love it dude your life. It's it's it's very um, I
want to say dramatic It's not true. It's all our lives are dramatic. I guess
you can say that but you really had a Very
I still don't know what i'm gonna be when I grow up But right now i'm on chats
and tats with my brother Aaron, you know Oh,

(01:07:37):
So that... So then, yeah, I think I hear you there. It's like, you got
a taste of what the road might look like in the
higher levels of music, and you were like, fuck, this is probably gonna happen
again. This is what it's all about. I don't wanna
be a part of that. And to not go big with music
is to be broke your whole life. You either play

(01:07:58):
at your local bar for the rest of your life, which a lot of people do that happily.
That's great. But, you know, wife, kids and things and
having a life that you can't, you can't do those things. So then
you're probably in my mind, I'm guessing, thinking, what am I going to do? You
know, I need a job. That's right. You know, and you and
I know this from some of the material I already listened to, but you'd already been
an artist. Oh, yeah. Painting and drawing since you were a

(01:08:21):
young boy. Yeah. Muralist. Yep. All those things. And
so had you been tattooed at this point? Yes. Yep.
So you had experience, you'd gotten tattooed. A little bit, yeah.
You know, and I wanted to learn, thank God, I only wanted
to learn from the best. At that time, who I deemed was
the best in my area was Brian Brenner. Okay. But he,

(01:08:42):
every time I asked him for an apprenticeship, he told me to get fucked. Fuck
Dude, I mean, I was told to get fucked for three years. That's a
long... And after no one in the city would give me a spot
or an apprenticeship, then I moved to Phoenix, Arizona. I actually
lived in Cape Creek and Scottsdale and started my own faux painting

(01:09:04):
and mural business. This was before the crash of 08, so there was
a big boom in the housing development and I was muraling or
marbling pillars, whatever. But since Phoenix was so good,
I did like 200 foot murals, like I'm the biggest produce company
in Phoenix. And so tattoo artists in Phoenix would see my work. I'd always have
my signature. They'd call me and offer me a free apprenticeship. Like,

(01:09:25):
dude, your art's amazing. You ever thought about tattooing? Actually, I have. But
when I'd come and meet them, I don't know why, Aaron, if I wasn't impressed
with their portfolio, I would say, no, thanks. And I
take a free apprenticeship. Which blows my mind, because most people
As long as I can learn how to do this. Come on. But what they did was re-inspired

(01:09:47):
my confidence to call back home to Brenner again. And I
remember I was standing in my backyard under a lemon tree and called Brenner.
And he told me to get fucked and hung up on me. I called him back, told me to get
fucked. Third time I called back, now he's heated, right? And
I was like, before you hang up on me. I will be the most moldable, the
most humble, and the best apprentice you have ever hired and

(01:10:08):
have ever trained. Give me the chance to prove that to you, and if I'm not, fire me."
There was a pause, and he said, he knew I was in, this was a Friday,
I'm in Phoenix. He said, all right, motherfucker, be on my doorstep Monday
morning with four grand cash. Click. And I'm
standing there like, I think that was a yes. And
Aaron, I packed up everything I could in my truck, drove across

(01:10:29):
country and the look of shock on his face when I was standing with
an envelope of cash that Monday morning, you know, boom,
That's cool. Yeah, very cool. And then so,
yeah, it began. And then, you know, then
you serve your you do your apprenticeship and see 18 years

(01:10:50):
now you've been tattooing. And nine years ago, you
opened your your own shop. You probably had apprentices yourself at
Oh, yeah. Another thing that I noticed early on, because coming into the
industry, I'd already lived nine lives. It's
also in sales. You know, I was already a people person. Mm
hmm. I had a level of emotional intelligence. And Aaron,

(01:11:11):
just like you, something's always in me. I've always loved people. Right.
So that's who I was when I showed up. And it
was so foreign in the tattoo industry. Yeah. So
fucking foreign. And to me, how they treated people was foreign. I
already knew this is a place that takes courage to show up in. Most
people are like scared to come here. And in the beginning, I celebrated people

(01:11:33):
because they were people and the little things. And so real quick, even
though dudes had seven years on me and were better tattooers, they
were cool for too cool for school, twiddling their thumbs while the waiting room
was full of people waiting on me. And it wasn't because
Yeah. I talk about that probably way too much on the show. Okay. Same

(01:11:54):
The only reason why I say that is because that's when
I realized, you know, somewhere along the line, you know, I became a
coach for the tattoo industry, teaching people almost
Which is so needed. Yeah. And this is 18 years ago back
when mine was 32 years ago. It was, yeah, same note. I noticed the
same thing. What are you guys? This is a job for

(01:12:18):
caring for people at first, and then we'll get on with the tattooing.
It just seems so obvious. But I mean, I actually do understand. I
understand where the industry was and who became
tattooers 40 years ago. It
makes sense, but it was in the middle of a renaissance. And
the same thing happened to me at those early shops. I wasn't the

(01:12:40):
best tattooer, but the old guys are watching the young kid
get busier and busier. And it's just because being kind and patient with
people. Nowadays, I don't think, I mean, it's out there. And
more now, you won't meet the rough and tough type. You'll probably just meet the
ego type. But even that is, I think what
we're talking about right now has been relatively cured. Most

(01:13:02):
people that are tattooers now get it. And now,
I mean, there's so many tattooers, you better be of service to
a high degree if you want to be profitable. Yeah, that's right. You
can't, you can't fuck around anymore. You know, you want to go and be a, a cocky
asshole tattooer, you know, we'll see how much you
earn in a year. Cause there's, there's somebody right down the street who's nice

(01:13:22):
and polite, you know? So those days are gone and I'm happy
to see him gone because it is a beautiful art form that involves someone
trusting you with their body, their health, their
vision, their dream. And to mishandle something like that
Yeah, we have the honor of being a part of the rest of people's lives. You only got one

(01:13:46):
Yeah, it's huge. Yeah. Yeah. I still feel that way. It's
my favorite. Actually, it's my favorite part of the job is
being that for others, you know, and then if the art
is, you know, it's a sick tattoo. That's just like this little bonus
on the end of it, you know, that's cool. You you've
And that's why I think one of my favorite things, you

(01:14:08):
know, we're all here because the art of tattooing, but I'm
way more interested in, or inspired, or
what turns me on more is the art form of building relationships. You
know, at the end of the day, tattoos don't pay you, people do. And
it's so much fun. The real riches of life are
getting to share it. Who cares? What good is a song if

(01:14:30):
there are no ears to hear it? What good is a painting if there are never
any eyes to see it? This thing was meant to be shared. Even
our gifts are for others. So many people think
the purpose of life is like to please people and serve God.
But really, I believe it's just please God and serve people. And
I don't know. So, any of us, if you're a real tattooer, unless you're

(01:14:52):
just tattooing fake arms and legs, you are serving someone.
And it's also cool, like, cause I personally believe
that we're all creators, right? Yes, yes, yes. Every
little, I always go back to babies a lot, but watch them,
watch what they do. That's their true nature, right? They build sandcastles, they

(01:15:12):
draw with crayons. They're creating constantly and
and some of us are lucky enough to continue on being in a highly creative careers
But you know a lot of people go off to be lawyers doctors. We
need those too. Yeah, so they did They're left with this void
of like lack of ability to express themselves, you know and in
tattooing It's really cool to be a person that could help them express themselves.

(01:15:35):
Come on, you know, I mean They want to they want to create art
whether they know it or not. That's right, and they haven't been They've
been luring for 20 years, so they can't draw so
well. That's right. I'll bet you if I got a hold of them 20 years ago, I bet you I
could teach anyone if I can paint or draw or sculpt or something. It's
in us all. But that ship sailed, that's fine. They're a
doctor now. But to be the person to bring them

(01:15:58):
in and co-collaborate with them, so they get to have an artistic express,
they get to be a part of it. Like, hey, can we move that over here? Yeah, we
can. Can I do that? I would recommend against that, we
can, but the, okay, no, on that, to be with them
through that. Come on. And at the end, they get to look at it and say, this is
my art piece that I created with this guy or this girl. That's right.

(01:16:20):
That's cool. And at the same time, letting them know that they
are artists, that lawyer has been an artist at lawyering, that
doctor is an artist at doctoring. I
believe we're all artists. Yeah. In our own ways. Some people are
artists with words, some with tattoo machines, some with a paintbrush, some
as a mother. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And this is why I

(01:16:40):
say I am the coach of artists and the artist of coaches. I
Well, my friend, we could go on and on. We could go on
and on, but I try to keep my show digestible for
With their busy lives. Let's go create some magic
and then we'll meet back here in six months to a year with a hellacious part

(01:17:01):
We will, we will. But before we close everything out, maybe
I have a few words, you might have a few words about what's
next for Matt Klammer, what you're doing now. Definitely
shout out your shop, any of that you want to throw out
there, your Instagram handles, all of that. And also, you
know, what is next? Or if there isn't a next, maybe what

(01:17:22):
is going on now is what is, and next hasn't shown up. Tell me
I love it through and through, you know, number one,
love is, I am that. Number two, I am a
coach through and through. And if you're listening today
and for whatever reason, you just feel led to reach out, you can hit
me up on Instagram or just go to mattklemmercoaching.com. And

(01:17:44):
then we can just have a conversation and see what we could create together. But
in saying that Aaron, I would love to leave our listeners with a
Let's do it. You know, the quality of our life comes down to these two
things. One, the quality of our communication, and not
just with the whole world, with our own selves, and the quality of questions we

(01:18:06):
ask or even live into. And not just the questions I ask the world,
questions I ask the universe. Even that day when you had the encounter. What
led to your encounter was the question, the new question you lived into.
Why is it? Why am I attracting? Boom! Then, Right.
And so here are some questions I wanted to share with you all
simply to live into. Who am I being as a parent or

(01:18:28):
a friend? Who am I being as a leader? Who
am I being as a member of my community? Who would
I need to be to be a more loving person? Who
would I need to be to create a level of confidence that
is remarkable? Who would I need to be to
be at peace with who I am? Who

(01:18:49):
would I need to be to have miracles show up in my life daily?
Who would I need to be to create value in the
work that I do? Who would I need to be to generate
a life of abundance? Who would I need to be
to alter my relationship with fear? Who
would I need to be to be at peace with my past? Who

(01:19:10):
would I need to be to step powerfully into my future? Who
would I need to be to be present as a
way of being? Who would I need
to be to live the most extraordinary life I
can live? Who would I need to be to know
that my life makes a difference? Who would I

(01:19:31):
need to be to be fully in love with myself and my
life? Who would I need to be to improve my relationships
with the most important people in my life? Who
would I need to be to have a personal breakthrough in
Dude. I just changed my morning routine. Come

(01:19:52):
on. I mean, I'm thinking about what you just did, because as
you were saying, I'm picturing quickly my
answers to those questions. And then immediately I
had an intuitive thought where I'm like, my
thing I read every morning, it starts with, I am
this, I am that, I am, which

(01:20:13):
is powerful. But that invites creative
solutions to get where you're trying to go. Because the
reality is, I'm saying, I am this,
I am that. And when I read it sometimes, I'm thinking, yesterday
you weren't. Because sometimes I fail. I'm like, yesterday you
weren't the kindest to your wife. You were short-tempered and you didn't wanna

(01:20:34):
hang out with her. And you went and rode your dirt bikes all day when you knew
she needed a date night. And yet you're saying
in this, I am a man who believes that being a wonderful husband
is one of my core tenets. So then I have
this, as I say it, I have this imposter, you're
full of shit, dude. Why don't you write that down? I

(01:20:55):
am full of shit. But when you pose it as a question, it's
like, one, you're saying, yeah, I'm not all these things all
the time, but who would I need to be to be more of
That's it brother. I like that better. Then you can define your
Who would I need to be? I need to be this and this. Okay. I am

(01:21:19):
Yeah. That's cool. I never, I read a lot of stuff and I've
never, you know, all the, all these books and seminars and things and
I've never heard it really put that way. That's new to me. It's rare for me to come across a
new little, little hack, you know,
towards being a better person. I like that a lot. Thank you for
sharing that. You're welcome. That's cool, Matt. That's cool. Well, thank you for your
time. Thank you for your love. Thank you for your passion,

(01:21:43):
enthusiasm. It's palpable. uh,
inspirational. You've inspired me to be a better person.
So, and I know that's going to come through on this episode for all you guys listening
and girls listening. And, uh, lastly, I just want to thank
sullen clothing, Ryan, Jeremy. You
guys have shown me nothing but love since I started this program. Continuing

(01:22:06):
your support for us is beyond words. And
for all of you guys out there that love tattoo art, and I know a lot of you do,
and I know a lot of you wear clothing, check out sullenclothing.com. The
best tattooers in the world, the best artists in the world, right on t-shirts,
right on jackets, right on hoodies. High quality shit.
Dope shit. Half my wardrobe is their stuff, even

(01:22:28):
before they were a sponsor. So please check them out and
again for all you guys that are liking and subscribing please do
so i am not at the level where i can just perpetually do
this as a hobby and the only way i can be here next year is
with that type of love and support and i thank you for all
of you that are done that and continue to do so so thank you for