441: Wilding Cider and the Rural Method | Somerset, UK - Cider Chat

Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
And we're pretty kind of keen that thatwould be the next thing we do, as in,
this is the forever career, if you like,of sign making, whereas we always knew
that the restaurant was not forever.
Hello my name is Ria Windcallar and I amthe producer and I'm a Cider MC of this
weekly podcast where we speak with makers,cider enthusiasts and folks within the

(00:27):
cider trade from around the world play.
Bringing us into episode 441 of a ciderchat with Sam Leach of Wilding Cider.
Now this cidery is basedin Somerset, England.
It's not too far from Bristol.
The city of Bristol is really a hub.

(00:50):
in Somerset and to the South, alittle bit leaning to the West,
Southwest, I guess, is where the homeorchard of Wilding Cider is located.
They also have a cidery production barn,if you will, or facility in a different
location, a number of different orchards,and they have been building up their

(01:12):
stock list, their cider making techniqueand really hit the ground running.
Thank you.
So it was a really joy to catch up withSam and the founders of Wilding Cider.
I had, uh, look, I was justfresh off the French cider tour.
I landed in Bristol, basically hunkereddown for a couple of days at a, One

(01:36):
room little B& B set up and staredout at some druid ruins for the first
day at least to kind of take in whatjust happened in France with this
amazing group of people who are onthe French Cider of tour in 2024.
I was already missing themand it's a little bit of.
Like, you know, where's everybody doing?

(01:56):
And, you know, we do stay in contact.
I love that.
In fact, all the different sideof tour groups stay in contact.
It's great.
But, you know, you have a littlebit of a, a longing at that moment.
And I had a little bit of physical,like dropping because we'd stayed
up Late at night and getting up, youknow early in the morning because
I didn't want to miss a moment Oneof those people like stop talking.
I don't want to miss anything and thengoing over to meet both Sam and Beccy And

(02:21):
there are two boys at their home orchardin their home having a sit down They're
sitting there Super intimate that evening.
I was able to enjoy dinner withthem after we were recording inside.
Sam and I walked out to the orchard, thencame back in and tasted some more cider.
It was absolutely lovely.
And you're going to hear the intimacyof it because in the background, these

(02:44):
It's just a little, little guys, right?
Their sons were hanging out in theback and I kind of edited out some
of it, but you're going to hear it.
And that's the real deal, you know,in cider making and really in most of
the fermentation world there is oftena very thin veil between home life
and work life because if you are home.

(03:04):
Orchard based, if it's right there on yourproperty, you don't have big bucks to like
have a huge mega tasting room somewhereThat you hired other folks to manage and
you're only going in and kind of managingthe the books and the fermentation
Then it gets really real and that ispart of the beauty of Cider and Perry.

(03:28):
They make both and you'regonna be hearing about that.
This is a total geek out sessionin so many ways with Sam.
We kind of get in there.
I threw some hard questions out to him.
He handled it like a pro.
His baseline is as a chef.
And you're going to really hear thatin the descriptors on the label and how
he just talks about the cider makingas we get further into the episode.

(03:50):
So that was a really nice piecethere on that conversation.
And to boot, well, guess what?
We're going to be visiting WildingCider, the home based orchard, on
the upcoming 2025 Totally Cider Tour.
UK edition.
Yeah, that's right.
I'm going to be talking more aboutthat, but before we get to this

(04:13):
main conversation with Sam ofWilding Cider, let's first go to
a little bit of words from some ofthe sponsors of this here podcast.
I really encourage you to listen toit because some of these audio ads
that get plugged in here, it'll tellyou a little bit how the algorithm
is sensing who you are, which I kindof think is kind of good to know.

(04:34):
And then some other news aboutCiderCon 2025 coming up in Chicago.
CiderCon is the annual premier ciderconference for industry professionals
and it's an opportunity to learn, share,taste, and network with other cider
folks from around the world who workin every aspect of the cider industry.

(04:57):
And coming up, the nextCiderCon is in Chicago.
It's going to take placeFebruary 4th through the 7th.
Now is the time to register.
And if you haven't yet, you know, youwant to get it in, we're less than a
month away and you don't want to miss it.
I really miss this annual event.
It is a place to get supercharged,network, and get those answers to those

(05:21):
pesky little questions maybe aboutfermentation, different styles, some of
the legal issues surrounding cider, youknow, everything that you would want when
you are in the midst of your cider work.
So let me give you a couple tips.
I would say arrive on Monday,the 3rd of February, so that on
Tuesday, February 4th, you couldtake part in some of the tours.

(05:43):
And there's still ticketsavailable, which is incredible.
So there's a chef led pizza making class.
And you know, you think, oh, pizza making.
Well, like, what's the big deal?
I do cider.
Well, well, actually in the UK,They are serving up a lot of
cider and pizza, because it goesreally, really well together.
And there's a lot ofdifferent sites here in the U.
S., like Brooklyn Cider House.

(06:04):
They always have some pizza making there.
You should check thoseguys up in New York State.
Anyways, so there's a chefled pizza making class.
This is, you can up your ante,maybe get some tips, even
if you're already making it.
There's a Field Museumguide tour and happy hour.
There's an aquarium tour in happy hour.
There's a molecular mixology course.

(06:25):
That's cool There's a raise a glass acelebration of diverse cider voices and
that's one that I'm going to that's adinner on Tuesday evening I'm really
excited about that gonna see Hannah fromDope Cider House Monique from Yonder
cider Dave from Alma, which is basedin Washington State, love his ciders.
Richard Yi from Brooklyn CiderHouse in New York, and also some

(06:49):
cider from Casa Diora in California.
So yeah, there's a lot goingon there just at that dinner.
So make sure you gettickets if you haven't.
That's really the place to be.
And I have a little tip.
I'm gonna give you a little tip because ifyou don't know about CiderCon yet, well,
I Are you really in the cider industry?
Okay.
Don't beat yourself up ifyou don't know about it.

(07:10):
It's all good.
Everybody's welcome.
It's going to be a hell of a time,but here's a little tip as you are
now starting to pack because you'regetting ready, you're geared up.
So first you're thinking, okay,let me make sure I'm registered.
Oh God, I got to register.
So you're going to put in a promocode and get 30 off your ticket.
And that promo code is CiderChat.
The two C's are capital.
It's all one word.

(07:31):
Now you can click the box for theCidershare, because that money
can go towards attending theCidershare, which happens on Wednesday
evening, starts at 5 o'clock.
Don't miss that.
It kind of comes out, there's always likelittle taste treats at the Cidershare.
And you get to sampleciders from all your peers.
It's an incredible experience.
You'll have cups, you'll justbe, you'll really be in the zone.

(07:55):
All right.
Let me just say that.
And my big tip for you is nowas you start packing, think,
do I have any electrolytes?
And electrolytes helpyou avoid dehydration.
So whether you're driving or you'reflying, dehydration is an issue.
And because we are professionaldrinkers in this area.
Industry you want to watch out for that.

(08:18):
So it's not just goodenough to drink water.
Not for me I have electrolytes andI'm gonna have a little link in the
show notes for the electrolytes thatI really like They're really tasty.
I get it in orange powder orlemonade powder Just pour it in a
glass of water and I am good to go.
So I'm gonna be seeing you Do let me know,like what electrolytes you are using.

(08:40):
I know sometimes I get some coconutwater, but I have really been
turned down to the powder form.
And I have a really good, uh,brand, if you will, that I use.
I can't wait to see you at CiderCon 2025.
It's going to be taking place February4th through the 7th in Chicago.
It'll be Chicago Cider Week.
And then on Saturday is CiderSummit, which is always awesome.

(09:02):
It's going to take place at the Navy Pier.
Yeah, good times ahead.
So make sure you registerat ciderassociation.
org for Chicago CiderCon.
2025 walking through the orchard.
We're gonna be doing exactly that onthe upcoming 2025 Totally Cider Tour

(09:24):
UK edition that's gonna be takingplace August 25th through the 31st.
We meet in Bristol, which isto the west of London, and then
we're gonna be in Somerset.
We're gonna check out.
Wilding cider, hang out there,enjoy their home orchard, and
then doing some other site visits.

(09:46):
All this is gonna be going up atthe Toley Cider page @ciderchat.com,
but it's gonna be early releasedto those on the wait list.
And we have a nice sizable wait list.
So boy.
I'm excited for that.
Thank you for everybodyhave sent emails this way.
You could still get on the wait list.

(10:07):
Let us know how manyfolks are on your party.
Just send an email to info at cider chat.
com.
Put cider tours on the top.
Let us know who you are and howmany folks, and this is to the UK.
I have been gettingquestions about France.
I know a couple of youwould like to do that.
Please let me know where you wantto go and, uh, we will keep on.

(10:31):
building that because that's howI need to kind of manage all that.
I'm sure you get it.
If you are in a business at any levelat all and making plans for vacation, I
need to have a sense of folks beforehand.
Anyways, this, This UK touris going to be outstanding.
Somerset, Gloucestershireand Herefordshire.
And I'm really excited.
We're going to be first startingin Somerset and we'll be visiting,

(10:53):
like I said, Wilding Cider.
So without further ado, because Icould barely contain my excitement,
it just brings me right back tothat day where I was kind of a
little sleepy, a little out of it.
And I got to meet Becca and Sam andthe boys and hang out in their home.
And just have this really lovely time,this conversation and drinking some

(11:13):
really delicious cider, an amazingdinner and walking in the orchard.
So grab a glass and join this chatwith Sam Leach of Wilding Cider based
in Chew Magna in Somerset, New York.
England.
We first started renting it in 2018, andthen we bought it a year and a half later.

(11:36):
We sort of took the plungeon this orchard, renting it.
We were, so our background was inrestaurants, Beccy and I were running a
restaurant, and we'd been making cider,and we were pretty kind of keen that
that would be the next thing we do, asin, this is the forever career, if you
like, of cider making, whereas we alwaysknew that the restaurant was not forever.
The farm got split into threelots and we bought one lot of that

(12:00):
which included the cottage Whichis sort of the old cottage there.
This is New extension that we're buildingat the moment and then bought the
orchard and then Two more fields wherewe have a forest garden and a muck,
vegetables, forest garden and vegetablesand we plant a little new orchard.
So kind of, there's quite alot going on on this side.

(12:22):
You've got a lot going on.
I would say so.
You can feel it.
Like seven and a half acres here andthen we rent another sort of, I always
slightly forget, it's about eight,eight or nine further acres of orchard.
So.
It's all traditional orchard and otherthan the half acre of new orchard we

(12:42):
planted, it's all established orchard.
So it's been orchard for like atleast 20 years or so, and some of
them are much, much older than that.
So we're very fortunate to be inthat position of having established
orchards to take on with good,like mostly good cider fruit.
Not always the varieties you'dwant to plant, but, but mostly
good stuff and productive.

(13:04):
In some cases, very, veryrun down and neglected.
Probably replanted maybe 150 treesout of about 600, something like that.
And then we probably top worked 50or something across the orchards.
And so that's really like trying to changethe balance of the fruit that we have.
Becky and I like acidity in ciders.
So we like the bitter sharps, andwe like the sharps to work with.

(13:28):
You know, we're big fans of KingstonBlack, Stoke Red, Porter's Perfection.
So we kind of wanted to have those thingsand definitely the kind of varietal
split of In the orchards are skewedvery heavily to bittersweets, and so
it's difficult to get that balance forus Partly it's a taste thing and partly
it's a kind of fermentation thing.

(13:49):
We need the acidity for the fermentation.
We're working Completely naturally,so that is a big part of our, you
know, cleanliness of fruit and pHare kind of too big Controls that
we have, if you like, to make surethings stay safe and work out well.
I saw that you were taking down some, uh,Bulmers Norman, sorry, Bulmers Norman.

(14:10):
Bulmers Norman is one of the bigones that we've been eradicating.
And the second one, too.
Biscay or Michelin.
Okay.
No, it's not.
I was surprised with the Bulmer's Normanbecause you want to go more for the acid.
So yeah, yeah, I meanwe're in a very fortunate.
Some makers out there arelistening to that right now going.
Oh my god he's taking out theBulmer's Norman, are you kidding me?
I'm sure in like.
But yeah, everybody has their own style.

(14:31):
So that's.
Everyone has their style and alsoand we're lucky that we have, you
know, Dabernet, Chiseled Jersey,Yarlington, Biscay, Ellis Bitter,
Ashton Bitter, Ashton Brown Jersey.
So we've got, we've got probably, Idon't know, 20 varieties of bittersweets.
It probably represents 75 percent ofour tonnage every year is bittersweets.

(14:53):
In an ideal world, it would probablybe about maybe 60, 10 percent
sharps, something like that.
Um, but yeah, and of all thebittersweets, uh, Bournemouth's
Norman is by far my least favourite.
I know some people like it, but I,to me it's just a good bittersweet.
It doesn't have much depth andcomplexity, I don't think, and

(15:16):
I'm not a big fan of the styleof tannin that it has, basically.
I think it's quite, it'squite bitter and quite, hard.
If you're low on tannin, it'sa great one to have, but we're
not low on tannin, basically.
It's so interesting to hear that, youknow, from someone from the UK wanting

(15:37):
like more acid and in the States peoplewant more of the tannin and I don't
know, meet in the middle of the oceanin a beautiful world or on Atlantis.
What told you that cider waslike the right direction?
Because It's not easy living.
No.
Restaurant work isn't easy either.

(15:59):
I would say it was quite, it wasprobably quite gradual, really.
So, Becky and I, we bothgrew up in the countryside.
Becky grew up in Cornwall, I grewup in Somerset, so I didn't grow
up far away from here, really.
I grew up in Ditchett, andDitchett's got great orchards.
Traditional, all traditionalorchards, they're old orchards, and
they are really, really beautiful.
They're mostly owned by theBarber family who make cheese.

(16:22):
That's their kind of, that'stheir business really.
Uh, but they've, they've always kindof looked after all these orchards and.
So for me, the orchards,there was no woodland.
I always loved trees.
I love woodland.
Orchards became like myversion of woodland as a child.
I don't think Becky got into cider untillater on, until she met me, probably.
Did you have it at the restaurant?

(16:43):
Yeah, we did.
We always had good cider, but at thestart we didn't have much good cider.
And we got into drinking naturalcider from farmhouse, you know,
farmhouse makers in Somerset.
And when I became a chef, andwas into getting into food and
starting to get into drink.
I was, my opinion on cider was Iwanted to drink wild juice cider.
I didn't want it to havesweeteners added or sugar added.

(17:05):
Added, it had to be full juice.
We started making cider as soon as wemoved back to Bristol from London, just
as a hobby, just with some friends.
Every year we'd refine that, trying toget support with some cider apples, then
trying to find other Some actual orchardsthat we can go to ourselves and pick
and then try to find better orchardsand and we're still in that process
So you're kind of like Foragers a bit.

(17:26):
Is that true?
Like when you like foraging for theperfect orchards, but not on roadside.
Yeah Foraging.
Yeah, maybe that is fair.
Yeah, that probably is fair, yeahBecause if that's not really possible
in the UK to kind of forage theway that we would in the US, where
there's abundant Apple trees.
I mean, not overly refunded, but yeah,we have feral apple trees everywhere.
And yeah, it's a whole niche scene partof cider, but here it seems like there

(17:51):
are kind of Would you say feral orchards?
Yeah.
Your orchard was like that, right?
It was kind of left to Yeah, I mean itwas, so our orchard was being picked,
and a lot of these were being picked.
Some of them fully, some ofthem not fully, some of them,
some of them not at all.
Yeah, yeah.
But we're not talkingabout abandoned farmland.
Okay.
We want to be growing fruit, lookingafter the orchard, the whole deal, in

(18:15):
a very Sort of stable position, butwhen you don't have any land to start
with and you've got to find orchardsand you see one That looks good But
then you get in there and the varietiesaren't suitable or like the trees of
you know So just not productive orwhatever whatever the deal is or the
access is terrible and it's impracticalor it's just too far Away or whatever.

(18:36):
So your ciders are a blend.
So mostly.
Yeah We've do some so we do YouStoke Red we've done, Kingston
Black we always do those if we can.
We've done quite a few singlevariety Perries as well, which I
think generally the Perrie Pairs arebetter suited to single varieties
than the Cider Apples are, generally.
So yeah, we try and do that if we can.

(18:57):
But we really like doingsingle orchard Ciders.
So you're giving like a senseof what that orchard is like.
The terroir of that one single spot.
Yeah, exactly.
And.
It's always a selection, it's neverall of it, it's always a bit of it.
Now we're pretty settled in theorchards that we're working with.
So you're doing the regenerative farminghere, you're making cider and you're

(19:20):
also an orchard, which is kind of likethe whole shebang for a cider maker.
Yeah.
How has that learning curvebeen for managing orchards?
They've always been selected 95 percentof the time by farmers rather than Plant
breeders and and what's interestingabout that is you're getting stuff
that really works for a farmer I.
e.
it's generally quite trouble free.

(19:42):
The skin is quite thick.
They land on the floor.
Okay, they're hard They pressnicely if any of those things
are wrong about an apple.
There's got to be some verygood There's qualities to be
considered By a farmer, right.
They know it's going to work now.
Yeah, because all these, you know, theseold farmers, when these things were being
selected, they would have been milkingcows, they would have been making cheese

(20:05):
through the summer, they would havebeen making hay, probably growing some
crops, definitely growing vegetables,and they would have also had apples and
pears and plums and cherries for theirhousehold and the workers, and they
would have made the cider themselves.
So there weren't really many.
Specialist growers.
So you, you didn't, you couldn't belike spraying neem oil or anything.

(20:28):
You know what I mean?
Like that, that, that justwouldn't have happened.
And so you get these varieties wherethe quality of the cider is good.
They're relatively easy to grow in avery kind of low or zero input system.
Relatively speaking, it's quitestraightforward, basically.
I mean, in terms of like howI've learned, how we've learned.
Obviously we learned a lot from books.
We learned from anyone wecan meet and find out of.

(20:51):
You know, we haven't had a sort of mentor.
And unfortunately in thisregion, there aren't many.
Like, specifically in our little bit ofSomerset, there is not a huge amount of
other orchardists and other cider makers.
So there are a few.
Is that because they're 35 minutes away?
I'm making a little joke here.
Region wise, I mean, you have, like,probably, like, for me, like, what I

(21:15):
would consider a stone's throw away,that you have a lot of orchards.
So what's a long distance?
So I'm meaning, I guess, like, I mean,they're reachable, but in terms of Within
our, our literal reached, you know, like,North Somerset, so sort of north of the
Mendip, south of Bristol, if you like.
Yeah.
You know, there's There are other orchardside makers, but there's not loads and

(21:36):
there's no one in our village or you knowIf there was someone in the village, you
know, maybe they would adopt you as amentor, you know That's sort of thing.
Yeah, and really like you learn mostof it from Your own trees, I think.
Sure.
Because that's really the key islike You know, yearly pruning,
watching how they fruit, how theyrespond to what you did last time.

(21:57):
How the, you know, the grasses,the variation from one side
of the orchard to the other.
The way that the same varietygrows differently in different
spots in the same orchard even.
And between orchards and, uh,but the trouble is they're
only cropping once a year.
You know, they fruit once a year,so it's very slow to kind of learn
anything inside a really, I think.
Yeah.
That's the craft.

(22:18):
But, yeah, that's thegreat thing about it.
You couldn't get bored.
You always keep learningand then keep improving.
Yeah, there's certainly an abundantnumber of apples to learn from.
I don't know if we'll ever meet them all.
I'd like to talk a littlebit about your cider.
You're not adding sulfites.
You're doing wild yeast.
Less traditional in many ways.
So what do you think reallysets apart your cider making?

(22:40):
Um.
From other people's?
Yeah.
Oh, that's difficult.
But also, because it seems like youkind of like hit the ground running
and catapulted, where people are like,dang, that's really, like, fine cider.
We're fairy orchard first,and cider house second.
The planning of it is all donein the orchard, and it's all
dependent on what the fruit is.

(23:00):
It's like what the varieties are, have,and how much we have of things each year.
Last year we didn't do Kingston Blacksingle variety because we didn't
have, it wasn't good enough I think,and also there wasn't a lot of it, so
probably at the top of the hierarchyfor us is the single varieties that
we can do with those few varieties.
Then it's the single orchards.
Then it's the sort of stylistic ones,like we make one called Comics, which

(23:24):
is multi orchard blend based around.
Brown's Dove and Yarling's Mouth andwe make one called Symphony, which is
pure bittersweet So no acid fruit atall and so on and so forth But then you
kind of have these sort of awkward bits.
If you're a grower Maker you have to kindof do something with those basically.
And so that's where the spirits kindof Started from so that's the first

(23:46):
thing and the second thing about ourcider making I guess is that we're quite
purist about it We don't use sulfites.
It's only wild yeast.
We don't filter.
We don't fine it.
We wouldn't force carbonate.
We don't pasteurize it.
We wouldn't add enzymes tof to induce a kiev to it.
You're making keve cider occasionally.

(24:07):
Occasionally.
Only if it's a, if it happens.
If it's a wild keve.
Yeah.
In fact, it's more oftenhappened with Perry.
It's happened a couple a fewtimes with Perrys Wild Keith.
It's had it, it happened a few times whereyou're like, I guess that's a brown hat.
Okay.
But like.
Never that brown hat and the completeclarity in that early stage sort of thing.

(24:28):
We've sometimes had like a midfermentation where it just stops and keeps
even though you've gone halfway through.
A lot of that is really good.
Completely arbitrary.
I'm pretty sure we could, theciders could be better if we
did some of these interventions.
Right.
But the reasons we don't wantto do them is, one is that I
think I've often had ciders thathave been very interfered with.

(24:51):
I feel like they're really unenjoyable.
Basically from a drinking perspective.
I don't think that sulfitesguarantees a clean cider, for example.
I don't think filtrationguarantees elegance in any way.
You can use these things, these techniqueswell and you can use the techniques badly
and so I think there's a real interestfor me personally in like taking that

(25:15):
very stripped back approach of kind oftrying to do pure craft and Sometimes
it won't work how you want it to butwhen it does work, it is both personally
extremely satisfying but also I thinklike taste wise it can taste great.
Well, it's a big investmentbecause if it goes wrong and you're

(25:35):
commercial, I mean for me, I'm anamateur cider maker for ages now.
And, you know, if I lose fivegallons, you know, a little,
yeah, I'll still cry over that.
You know, I could accept it, but foryou, you know, it's your livelihood.
So that's, I think we're.
It becomes the edge forfolks to kind of step over.

(25:58):
It's scary.
But if you're going to be wild, youknow, wild fermenting, you don't want to
like introduce other cultures into yourcidery because that's going to, in my
mind, it's, it's going to be there now.
Right.
It's very hard to like separate that.
Yeah.
And then you're kind of doing battle.
That's right.
And that's a beauty.
You're having this like quality ofcider, but also I think your time,

(26:19):
you're spending time to allow it to age.
So it's a year for aging.
Do you?
Often sit on a little bit longer that thanthat than a year like what's the average
time a minimum is a year the averagetime is probably Eight eighteen to twenty
months for like to start selling it.
Yeah, but we will sometimes sit onstuff for two or three years Yeah, yeah

(26:43):
And like sometimes you start on stufffor two or three years and you think
I don't not sure I like this and thenwe Empty them all out and then send it
for distilling or turn it to vinegarYeah, and you've got to be I guess that
you've got to take the rough with thesmooth Haven't you you know as any kind
of maker You've gotta, yeah, you'vegotta sort of accept that things don't
always work out how you want them to.
So you're letting it go fully dry then?

(27:06):
Most of what we make, or alarge proportion of what we
make, has some residual sugar.
And this is perhaps one of the things thatIt doesn't make us unique, but like, we're
in a relatively small group of producerswho make naturally sweet cider in, well,
anywhere, I suppose, relatively small.
We call it the rural method.
It is cold racking.
I don't really like the term coldracking just because there are quite

(27:27):
a few people who refrigerate theirtanks in order to do cold racking.
We don't do that and I reallydon't want to do that because
it's very energy intensive.
Like, if you don't, small scale, okayfine, but when you're doing a big
tank, It's vast amounts of energyto, to chill it that, to that extent
and we want to avoid that and sothe term rural method is kind of,

(27:48):
for me, it's a useful What, rural?
Rural method.
Rural method.
It's a, it's a useful term to kind ofdistinguish this like natural cold purist
approach to making cold rock cider.
So how do you What is the wrong method?
How do I define it?
Yeah.
So the method is basically it's apartially fermented cider it's leaving
in some residual sugar it, you'reusing the natural coolness or cold of

(28:13):
the wind and also unfertilized trees,extremely important unfertilized trees,
you then have low nitrogen content,low amino acids, which gives you slow
ferment you allow the cider to getfermenting as normal and to grow Bye.
Decent sized yeast crop so you've gota decent amount of yeast in there, but

(28:34):
that yeast is all quite young It hasn'tfulfilled much of its fermentation
potential at this point because it's cool.
It settles and you get quite a sortof clear Layer and then we rack that
cider into a fresh tank leave theyeast behind and you're leaving all
the nutrients behind with it so You'rethen making your cider lower in yeast

(28:54):
cells and lower in yeast nutrients.
So, you even further inhibitthe regrowth of the yeast.
And if everything works out great, whathappens is after the second racking, or
sometimes after the first racking, It willslow to almost, it will almost stick in
the winter, um, and then it will go clear.
Right.
And at that point, youknow you've won basically.

(29:16):
Um, anything that we've done that'sgone clear in the winter has always
turned out good in the long term.
That's great.
But.
If it doesn't go clear, you know,you don't quite know because, because
sometimes it doesn't go clear untilkind of March and then it will and
sometimes it doesn't go clear and thenit will speed back up in the spring
and, and we've, we have done it whereyou just keep racking and you know you

(29:40):
rack four, five, six, seven times andit eventually will stop and you'll keep
some sugar but there's risk in thatbecause every time you're introducing
oxygen, the more you rack it, right?
that you end up stressing the yeast, whichis something we really want to avoid.
And then in the spring, we wait for itto warm up, and I think, it seems to me

(30:02):
that 12 degrees Celsius, I don't knowwhat that is in Fahrenheit, 12 degrees
Celsius is the kind of key temperature,and once you're at that point, if you've
got a, if you've got a lot of yeast,or if you've got active yeast, they
will then speed up and just go for it,and then it'll go dry fairly quickly.
Whereas if you get to 12 and you'restuck, or you're going below a

(30:25):
certain threshold, which is likeTwo points of gravity, so like 0.
031 to 0.
0329, uh, if you do twopoints in three weeks.
That is a good speed, if you'regoing faster than that, it may
not hold, it may not be stable.
If you're going slower than that, it willalmost certainly not condition in the

(30:47):
bottle, which we're quite relaxed about,as long as it's dry enough for our taste.
Kind of like a pet nap.
Yeah, don't mind whetherit's fizzy or not fizzy.
So you're not really going for apet nap, but if it happens, cool.
If it happens, it happens, yeah.
So if it, so basically if youbottle it bright and it, and it
conditions and you get pet nap.
Fizz, it very rarely will need disgorging.

(31:10):
Obviously, if you bottle it with a bitof cloud and it doesn't condition, you
then can't disgorge it anyway, I meanyou've got that sediment and we we had
in the early days a few, I mean I saythe earliest, I'm sure that's going to
happen again to us, but like that canhappen and that is very annoying to have
a little bit of residual sugar and a lotof sediment in a thing you can't disgorge,
and so what we have done is then emptyit out into a tank, let it settle and

(31:34):
re bottle, so much work, so painful todo it, but then when you've done it you
think That was probably the right thingto do, you know, at least we can still
sell it, people will still enjoy it.
It's going to be a nice cider,just with way more faff.
So that's, that's therule method basically.
So not filtering it, it's notbeing pasteurized in the bottle.

(31:54):
You're not sulfiting it right at theend to freeze it or ensure it, you
know, and you're not chilling the tanks.
So there's a few of us like Skyborryin, on the Welsh heritage border, they,
they coined the term rural method.
We saw that and we thought.
Let's try and make this a thing.
And we checked in with them.
And then Rob Stockley, StockleySlider, he works for us, he's doing

(32:17):
it as well on pretty much everything.
He might do, he'll do a fewdry sliders, but he's pretty
much all gonna be raw method.
Artistraw are doing it as well.
They don't call it raw method yet,but I'm hoping to convert them.
It's nice they have.
That kind of like, equilibrium witheveryone, so that you have that
common language is really important.
Yeah, that's the nice thing is at once,because with cider, we always joke

(32:41):
about this, but this is true, as a sortof cider maker making, whatever you
want to call it, fine cider, naturalcider, ambitious cider, everyone has
their time, but you're, you're sortof convincing customers one at a
time, literally one person at a time.
You try it with them, you open theirmind to it, then they're converted.

(33:03):
If you say this thing you like isCool's Rural Method Cider, then they
see somebody else doing it, someone elsedoing it, someone else doing it, they
just know immediately, okay, I thinkthat might be my kind of cup of tea.
And I think that's something that ciderin the UK at least has been really bad at.
is trying to establish alanguage, a set of terms that

(33:24):
we all use, that mean things.
And, and then that helpsthe consumer in the end.
And I think, you know, although in theworld of wine, there's loads of complaints
about the, the system of appellation,but actually it has served the purpose.
Like that is why wine is the dominantgastronomic drink in the world.
And it's because it's been incrediblywell branded and incredibly well, you

(33:46):
know, Marketed and defined and Honed in.
Established, yeah.
For the consumer.
We could do with some ofthat inside it really.
Yeah, no I absolutely agree.
The Ravking, is it gravity?
No, pump.
Yeah, pump.
I was just kind of curious about that.
Because there's a little bit ofturbidity there, you know, with the, the

(34:07):
pump and, and I hear you're all aboutbeing a purist and sustainability, so
I was kind of curious, oh, are they,you know, because I do know makers
who do that for that very reason.
Yeah, sure.
It's a combination of things.
House is always on one level,we don't have a forklift.
Right.
If you're doing gravity rack, it's notokay just to gravity rack, is it, right?
If you're, if you're racking from someheight, you're going to have loads

(34:28):
of activity, you have to like, Right.
gravity rack extremely gentlyand carefully and the the hose
diameter you use is going toaffect it and everything like that.
I don't know, I, I think thegravity thing is maybe overplayed.
But I don't, I don't know, maybeit's not, and it's hard to say.
No one ever does quite Iwas just wondering, could
you Do you know what I mean?
Could you introduce yourself as a purist?
So that's kind of likethe purest thing to be.

(34:49):
Not that pure, yeah.
Okay, alright.
It's only so pure I want to be, butWe don't have a horse to take the
cider apples out of the orchard.
That's true, that's true.
And we do have stainless steel.
Yeah, yeah.
Although stainless steel ispretty pure, I would say.
As in like, you know, it's extremelyneutral, it's very easy to clean.
Mm.
Mm.
It's modern, but it's veryIs that primarily what you're

(35:11):
using is stainless steel?
The cider for distillingwe do mostly in IBCs.
And we've got a few smallplastic barrels that we use.
Mainly for kind of storage of juice andlike assembling blends during during
the season so you put 200 liters or 400liters of something aside in plastic
and then it goes later into stainless.

(35:31):
I'd like to use more wood.
At the moment I've only gotthree casks, wooden casks.
For conditioning or to ferment?
For fermentation.
So usually they will not, this is nota rule, but usually they will have
something go in for fermentation.
and come out at some point, maybethree to six months later, and then
something else goes in for maturation.

(35:52):
Um, so they're always full.
We never, we never hold themempty for longer than a few days.
Right.
And we, yeah, we try and get twobatches through every barrel in a year.
Um, Otherwise you sort of need to liketake them out, get them off the groceries,
clean them, clean the bowels and putthe same thing back in and then you need
to have like somehow got to top them upwith something and all that just becomes

(36:15):
like logistically a bit of a pain.
But yeah, I'd love to be able to.
do a bit more, you know, 20 to 25percent of the output in, in oak would
be really nice if we could do that.
But would that be a particularkind of, so we've used, we haven't
used, we haven't like used awhole range of stuff yet, really.

(36:37):
I mean, we've used Barrels fromour Pomo, which I really like,
that's nice, nice results.
We've used some red wine casks, Ireally like the red wine casks actually,
because they, they had something withquite a lot of alcohol, a lot of tannin.
I find spirit casks can bekind of overwhelming for cider,

(36:59):
especially for that first fill.
Um, I think if you're if you're ona bigger scale, it's much easier to
use spirit casks because you can makebigger blends but for us it's difficult.
It would be difficult I think for us touse spirit casks because the blend would
end up being like quite Big, you know intotal if even it was just one cask I might

(37:20):
only want that to be like 15 percent ofthe blend so that becomes quite a large
blend to kind of utilize it And then we'veused a port cask That was pretty wild.
It's pretty full on.
I really like that.
That's a very traditional, you knowport and sherry casks We're very
traditional in in this area Do you dothat at all with any of your spirits?

(37:41):
Cast gauging.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So the, so spirit wise, we, uh,the really, really the sort of
inspiration was to make cider brandy.
You know, that was the, that wasthe aim and that still is the aim.
But then once you've got spirits,you, you like the world slightly
opens up to you, you know?
So what doesn't go in thebarrel can be sold as OOV.
So that was, that's what we've been doing.

(38:02):
2018 was the first OOV we did.
So we've been doing that.
almost every year we've had some vymm-hmm . With one year, I think we
didn't, we didn't have enough to do arelease mm-hmm . Every year since 2019.
So 2019 cider was the first to gointo cask to be a cider brandy.
So that went into cask in 2020.
Mm-hmm . So the first cask iscoming up to four years old and

(38:26):
we've done one a year since then.
Fun.
Is that kind of common here in the uk?
Because, I mean, no, I don't think so.
It's, it's definitelyuncommon in the uncommon uk.
Okay.
Definitely uncommon in the uk.
But it is, it's gonna happen.
It's the next thing, I think, in the UK.
Wonderful, that's music to my ears.
You've got, you know, the Templies,Somerset Cider Brandy, who were the first.
So well known.

(38:46):
And now, so other people, not necessarilydoing Cider Brandy, but people working
with Apple Spirits, having Apple,having like, Cider Distilled, you
know, you've got Goulds and Cornwall,Artistraw, Oliver's, Little Pomona.
You've got Charles Martel.
I'm sure I'm gonna forget people.
Once you're gonna get into it, I thinkit Like I said, it sort of opens up

(39:09):
A multidimensional offering If I'vegot a real glut, yeah, I don't have to
suddenly sell more bottles or suddenlysell more draft cider I can just turn
it to spirit and then we can sell itwhenever You know, and it becomes this
sort of like insurance policy, savingsaccount, pension, you know, whatever.
That.

(39:29):
You could buy a whole estate with some ofthose barrels, and people have, for sure.
People have done, I mean, like JérômeFauger in Normandy, I mean, he just
started making Cavodoss, and he didn'tsell any for like, I don't know, 20
years, 30 years, something ridiculous.
And he has this incredible library and Ithink, I mean we're not going to do that,
we're going to, we have to, we have tosell it because we, we need the money.

(39:53):
But I love doing The Spiritist.
Yeah, yeah, that's fantastic to hear.
It's just so much funand it's so exciting.
Are you doing a double distillationor a single distillation?
It's one go.
It's a pot and column still.
So it goes through, it's like adouble distillation in one go.
It's a modern still.
It's in Bristol.
It's a distillery calledCircumstance Distillery.

(40:13):
So you kind of likecontract distill in a way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly.
So like we I mean, never say never, butwith one, doing one cask I don't think
you could really justify buying a still.
Or probably doing the licensing too.
It's a different license.
There is a, there is a load of,yeah, that is another whole thing.
Even just for aging it,that's another whole thing.

(40:35):
Hmm.
Well, let's talk about the cider.
There's a blend of the threevarieties, 55 percent Dabonet.
Um, 30 percent browns and15 percent chiseled jersey.
It's from 2021, which was a yearthat I think was, it's hard to know
because we haven't been going forlong enough really, but I feel like
2021 was a really good year for fruit.

(40:56):
Because it was quite a lacklustresummer really, there was
kind of a brief heat wave.
In July, I think, and then it was quitekind of grey and rainy, rainy ish.
Yeah.
But then September was sunnyand dry and lovely, and it was
really good for fruit ripening.
Generally, I think, hot years give uslots of tannin, lots of sugar, a very

(41:17):
bold, kind of expressive fruit, and thenthe cool, wet years give you a much more
delicate, poised kind of Thing and thethe thing I like about the cool years is
a sort of freshness And 2021 to my mindhad that combination of freshness and
expressiveness and I think like of Theditch at hill blend that we do is the

(41:40):
one that we've the only thing we've doneevery single year since we started And
I think of all of those 21 was probablymy favorite Just because it had that
lightness and freshness as well as thekind of depth Whereas like 2022, which
is what we're selling, or just about tosell out of now, that is much bolder,
much more tonic, much, much richer.

(42:01):
It's so smooth.
It's so smooth for wild yeast.
A lot of times you'll get a littlebit of a stray, like maybe a little
bit of a terroir in terms of barnyardor something, and here it's went
through like a malolactic fermentation.
It will have gone through a little bit.
So when I poured it, you saw thattiny Like, it's not sparkling at

(42:21):
all but there is some gas to it.
And that is mostly justfrom the malolactic.
So there's a little bit of residual sugar.
We would have bottled it in 2022, soit's been in bottle for about two years.
That, like, in that first, I thinkit's done the malolactic this summer.
So it's kind of second summer.
Mmhmm, mmhmm.
Uh, I say it's soft, butit's a complex cider.

(42:43):
It's not, uh, Super tan and it'sjust really a smooth, smooth
sipper and the color, you know,it's beautiful in the glass.
Uh, it has that little bit of astringencythat makes you want to keep on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Quenching Moorish.
Yeah, just like pull it on.
And the a BV on this is, um, 6.6.
6.6.

(43:04):
So not super high and nice.
Medium.
Yeah.
Medium, uh, alcohol by volume.
Yeah.
Lovely.
And the information you havehere, I've been noticing on the
back here on, on your labels.
I like how you say drink cool, notcold, with fish pie or Kirkham's
Lancaster, so what is that?
Is that a cheese?

(43:25):
Yeah, Lancashire cheese.
Lancashire is one of the territorialcheeses of the UK, so one of the cheeses
associated with particular areas.
And it really almost completely died out,the tradition of proper farmhouse cheese.
Lancashire cheese.
So there's, there is asort of like industrial.
Manufacturers have it now.
I'm sure you still can find it.

(43:46):
The real deal is, yeah, almost died out,but Kirkham's, the family, I don't know
how many generations they're on, butthey make beautiful, beautiful Lancashire
cheese and kind of always have done.
It's not like super, super pungent.
It's not super hard.
It's sort of a bit crumbly and it's gota kind of like a bit of acidity to it.
It's just delicious.
Which would balance very well, the aciditywould balance well with this, uh, cider.

(44:07):
That's right.
And it's kind of, it's obviously gotsome fat, but it's not a super fatty
cheese, but the fat works so well withthe tannins and something like this.
But this, I mean, this cider, Ithink also, it's quite a good, like,
either bread and cheese lunch cideror like a cheese course cider where
you want it to go, because it's alsoquite nice with blue cheeses, it
works well with cheddar, I think.

(44:27):
It could be good with thingslike Caphilly, which is another
of the territorial cheeses.
Um, or Cheshire or, you know, theWensleydale is another one it's
nice with and then it's good with,it's also good with like because
this is quite a sort of ClassicSomerset style in terms of the blend.
It's, it fits with like all thethings you would generally expect.

(44:51):
You know, pork chops with apple sauce.
Good with like casseroles, like Somersetpork, so cooked in cream with cider.
Nice for all those kind of things.
Good, yeah, good tablekind of dinner cider.
It sure is.
And it's, it says on the labelhere, expect aromas of white peach,
white grape, all spice, stewedstrawberries, and star anise.

(45:17):
Wow.
I know, it makes itsound good, doesn't it?
Yeah.
That sounds like a meal right there.
You got me on stewed strawberries.
Yeah.
Wow.
We're kind of, with our labels, Ialways, it I'm kind of hesitant to
put too many notes like that because Idon't want to tell people what I think.
Yeah, but it's nice togive them something.

(45:39):
You need to give people something.
I think the really, I guess thepriority is to like let them know
what kind of cider is and like whenthey should be drinking it basically.
Yeah.
Because what you don't want is likesomebody just But we had this like early
on in the business because with the firststuff we released was all quite sweet
Fruity rural method ciders and then wereleased after a while like a bone dry

(46:02):
full tannin um Cider which I really likebut it's definitely not a mass appeal
type side It's something like onceyou're inside you'd enjoy it and we had
a customer who Really enjoyed our ciderand then they just like put that in the
fridge had it probably like three orfour degrees Please And they were like,
this is, this is horrible, basically.
And you can understand,it would be horrible.

(46:22):
Yeah, yeah, it would be.
It's too cold.
So yeah, we kind of realized kind ofquite quickly that the key is that you've
got to sort of like guide people enoughWithout telling them what to think.
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know what the stooge strawberries.
I totally get it.
You get it.
Yeah I get it.
Yeah, it's like what a great DescriptiveI think stooge strawberries is

(46:43):
something that we get We get in,in kind of good years, I think.
So it's Browns is bringing the acidity andBrowns is where the strawberry comes from.
And Foxwell is another place, anotherapple that gives you strawberry.
And in, in like a hotter year, I'venoticed we get more like stewed strawberry
from the Foxwell and from the Browns.

(47:03):
Or, or that sort of like gummy,sweety Haribo kind of strawberry,
um, as opposed to like, uh, avery fresh fruit strawberry.
And also the white grape.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think you have somereally great qualifiers.
And it does help, especially asfolks are getting more used to
talking about cider in that way.

(47:24):
And again, that nice low ish ABV.
It's a very simple label.
Nice font.
You know, it says DabinettBrown and Chisel Jersey.
It says the rule method.
You get it on there.
Yeah, still medium dry ciderand then welding cider.
It's simplicity Yeah, with so muchinfo Yeah, you know, it doesn't

(47:44):
really tell the territory though.
So this is it does say Somerset.
I'm sorry It does.
Yeah, you got it.
But this is a multi orchard cider.
Okay, multi orchard This is basicallythe Dabinette and the Chiseled Jersey
from here from the home orchardand then the Browns was from let me
just think I think, I'm pretty surethe browns are from pepper shells.

(48:05):
So the small orchard in ComptonBando, which is a very nice orchard.
Yeah.
But this is sort of like the idea, Iguess, is like some of the best dab
in it and the best chisel and thebest browns put together in the end.
Yeah.
No, just, and it's a beautiful.
I guess in the glass.
Yeah, you're doing a nice job here.
I'm very impressed.
It's uh, you know, uh, people think ofwild yeast and it could go in so many

(48:28):
different directions and what I amgetting from your, your peri and your
cider is something a little bit differentbecause you're allowing it to age.
So the yeast is not theruling factor there.
It's really the fruit that's shiningthrough and the yeast just allowed
it to like for men, but it's not.
Present and the the lead role,which you wouldn't want it to

(48:52):
be, you want it to be the fruit.
Yeah, that's right.
So bravo for that because thatis an edgy balance, right?
When you're working with Yeah.
That very raw type of style of Sure.
Side.
Making sure I, I think you, you'reright, you're totally right.
The age is such a big factor.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and I, and I notice mm-hmm . In,in, this might sound, I don't wanna

(49:13):
sound like, like I'm being judgy, butwhen I, so when I, if I try, I like.
Other cider makers, like small, peoplelike us basically, like relatively
new to it and relatively small.
And like, I think the most, the twomost common problems that I, that I
think I can pick up on, one is thecider just being sold too young.

(49:35):
And the other is that the fruit isnot always as ripe as it could be.
And I think that both thosethings leads to other stuff, you
know, and like, there's a lot ofreductive ciders on the market.
That's definitely a thing younotice, is like reductiveness, and
yet so often, especially with thesetannic ciders, that goes with time.

(49:56):
And actually like, I think we, themindset should be, if you have a bit
of reductiveness, like, As long as it'snot going across the line, actually
that's a good sign for aging potential.
It sure is.
And I think, and then the otherthing, like the ripeness is like,
you can't, you can't age out unripe.
No, you can't.
If it's unripe, it's just unripe,and it will always be unripe.

(50:18):
Well, obviously, you know, we just tookthe walk in the orchard, and you have
these like different schedules of treesthat you've planted and whatnot, and that,
That kind of attentiveness and the factthat it's right outside the window of your
home You get to go for that perfect time,you know that nurturing It's like grinding
the flour and making the bread out of it.

(50:38):
You know the the The beansdo that we had tonight.
It's just Just perfect perfect timingand that that's everything that is.
Yeah in a nutshell This iswhat we're always aiming for
although it's always difficult.
It's always difficult to get perfecttiming It is but you know, you have
a better chance if it's right outsideyour window 100 Yeah, you know unless

(51:01):
life throws you a wrench and youcan't get to it No, no, definitely.
You can I sort of I guess it'sall about giving yourself the
best chance possible, isn't it?
Yeah, and like if you With so manyvarieties, and with Making Cider, and
with Peri, and with like, staff, you know,everyone works fixed days, so you can't
be like, oh, tomorrow we're gonna do this.

(51:21):
You have to work around it.
But yeah, but it means we can kind of,we can Do as good a job as we were able
to basically It's a difference betweenan artisanal cider Like this is my
experience When you're able to go and pickthe fruit at that optimal time that is
like an orchard base cider That the oldfield was like from a single varietal.

(51:44):
You're right next to that tree.
Yeah, you truly are That's right,especially with pears Is there
any tips that you've kind of foundwith like working with the pairs?
Yeah, so what we, I mean, so Igot to credit Tom Oliver, who has
been like very open with advice.

(52:04):
And, and also I've sort of readanything I can about, um, Bartistry,
who sadly aren't making cider anymore.
They and Perry, they've retired,but they really were like,
exceptionally good at it.
And so, so yeah, I've sort of followedwhat they basically said, which is
more or less like you need to go toevery tree every week, at least once.

(52:26):
But like, ideally on this, whatyou don't want to do is like
go, you know, on a Wednesday andthen go on the following Friday.
So it's, you know, you want itto be no more than a week really.
And for most varieties, if you pickit up off the floor, it's ready
to press most for most varieties.
Some need to be shaken, so like for usthat's Yellow Huff Cap, it doesn't fall

(52:46):
until it's gone too far, so you needto wait and shake, and because you're
shaking, you then, you can't take them oneat a time, you've got to take the whole
lot in one go, so it's always a little,I find that a little bit stressful, we
don't actually have any this year, in away, in a way it's a relief, even though
it's my favourite version, I absolutelylove Yellow Huff Cap, it's quite a

(53:08):
stressful thing because you have to,you know, Strike when you've got some
you want some plated ones on the floor.
You want the ones on thetree starting to black?
But you also want some that haven'tblessed at all so that you've got this and
you know some you want them almost all toBe yellow with a few on the edge of green.
I think this is just my This is justthis is just observation But so then

(53:30):
you sort of waiting waiting waitingso we'll visit that tree like multiple
times a week You know twice a week orsomething and every time you shake a
few down and you take the cut them openand look at Yeah And then when you're
ready, it's like, go for it, go for it.
And it's really difficult, you haveto like climb behind the shake.
And you're able to shake these big trees?
You can only shake what you can shake,you know, the tops you just cannot get.

(53:50):
Yes, we've got, it's not ideal, we'vegot two four metre long poles and we
kind of tie them together so it endsup being about six and a half metres.
And then you try and climb the tree andshake in the tree, we take the ladder.
Next, for next time, for next year Iwant to buy like uh, you can buy this
like fiberglass tree surgeon poles.

(54:11):
They're really expensive but theycome, you basically just keep buying
as many poles as you want to buyand you just add them on the end.
So then we should be able toget to like a eight meter pole.
But I think we need like a ninemeter pole for some of these trees.
Wow.
You still won't get to the top.
Wow, wow.
Um, so yeah, angel's share I guess.
And then I think bletting, forus like bletting of the pears is

(54:33):
is I think a really big factor.
So we're looking for kind of about aquarter of the pears to be bletted.
So soft and ripe and it gives you justthis like richness and kind of depth and
complexity, which is just incredible.
And yet you've got the unblettedpears so you still have the acidity

(54:53):
and the freshness and that likeclarity of the kind of the unbletted.
We macerate, we always macerate, weactually macerate everything as pomace.
Okay.
But the pears, I think it's particularlyimportant for the pears, like a lot
of the apples, it probably doesn'tmake much difference if you go beyond
like a couple of hours of maceration.

(55:13):
But like with the pears we macerate.
Overnight unless it's warm.
It's very warm which sometimelike last year in September.
We had some real warm weather.
So then we would kind of Maceratein the more like minute in the
morning and then press it maybe twoor three hours later because if it's
too warm A, you can get more, like,you want it to get flies in there.

(55:34):
And also, like, you get sort ofvolatility developing in that.
That's the, that's the real worry.
That's the fear factor, yeah.
Is this, like, oxygen, pulp.
Yeah.
You know, insects is the volatility.
So then we want to press.
But this year it's beenvery cool, like, every time.
So we've pressed threelots of pairs this year.
And it's been cool, sowe've done those overnight.

(55:57):
And then, and then basically then weget it fermenting and it always seems
to kind of get going quite quickly.
Or, not necessarily get going quickly,but like, once it's going it seems
like it's fermenting quite fast.
And then we rack it.
usually once, uh, so this is for therule method, like somewhere in the
twenties, like thousand and 20, youknow, depending on what style anywhere

(56:22):
between 21 and 28 or something.
And then usually it just, I mean, it'susually pretty clear anyway, cause it's
pretty, press is clear, but then it justsort of drops out and goes crystal and it
just sits and does nothing all the winter.
It's just like, it's mind blowinghow like, it can be going.
Fast, it seems like it's going fastrelatively, and it's just obviously just

(56:45):
whatever use is on the bottom of the tank.
And it's not even much sediment, youknow, which is why you're looking at
like in a big thousand litre tank.
It's only like It's not,it's less than an inch.
Yeah, half an inch maybe.
And yet with some of the ciders,you know, you go in and like,
there's a couple of inches.
You would think thicker with pear becausesometimes pear doesn't clarify, you know.

(57:06):
Yeah, well yeah, you get thesetannin hazes and stuff, yeah,
which is kind of awkward.
I think with the, with the macerating,like when you're macerating, you have
like, Some of the tannins bind to theflesh of the pear, it becomes a kind of
mass, so you, so you have sort of, it'sactually really hard, because it comes
off and it's just like slop, but thenit firms up and it separates, so we, we

(57:30):
tend to get like a layer of pure juiceat the bottom of the, the, the tub.
And then we get this kind of floatingmass on top, which, you know, when you
scoop in you get like square sides.
You know what I mean?
Like folded together.
And so I think that's the processof, my understanding is it is very
weak, but I think what it is, is it'sbasically like the less ripe pair, so

(57:53):
the ones that haven't blettered at all,with this, they have more tannin, it's
more reactive tannin, and it's sort ofmuch more binding together and you get
this, yeah, this sort of But it is kindof like a clarification, basically.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
And then, yeah.
Which is what you want.
That's, that's it, really.
I mean, You did, so you let it kind ofgo, like, just Go through the winter.

(58:16):
Steady, steady, go.
And then.
And then we'll bottle it in the spring.
You bottle it in the spring.
Or early summer.
Depending, it depends like,with some of the perries.
Do you rack it off of that?
So yeah, we just rack,we're always bottling.
How many racks do you do?
So that would be one rackingin the winter, and then one.
So two.
At bottling point, yeah.
So yeah.
And that much.
Yeah.

(58:36):
Wow.
Um, and it can be really quite effective.
With, so last winter, I think it'stoo early to tell you how this
worked, but I, we bottled, we Didone that we wanted to be sparkling,
properly, a bit more sparkling.
So we didn't rack it at all and webottled it at a thousand and twelve.
Because we found basically wedon't, we haven't had any peri
ferment below a thousand and eight.

(58:58):
So that's, you know, obviously there'san element of sorbitol and there's
an element of residual fruit sugar.
And I think, you know, We don't havethe means to test that, but it feels
like that's where it wants to stop.
So we're thinking bottle air 12, hopefullywe're going to get enough gas to disgorge.
That's the plan.
Yeah.
So after Christmas, we will kindof visit that cider and visit that

(59:20):
peri and see what happens with it.
Um, and hopefully we'llget it on the racks.
And I think if you're letting peopleknow that it's a wild ferment and all
that, then they have a more leniencyof how it looks in the glass, too.
Would you agree with that?
Definitely, yeah.
Yeah, that's part of the excitement,because it's a living food.
Yeah.
Really, it's a liquid living food.

(59:41):
And that, you know, it's exactlywhat you want when you're eating.
You want some kind of flavor.
Health in in it though, you know,I know you as a cider maker may not
be able to say it But I will sayit, you know, it's a living food.
There's yeast in there and yeah, that'spretty darn good drink, you know Yeah,
absolutely, and it makes it interesting aswell because you know, it really it really

(01:00:04):
does age Yes, not just chemically butbiologically it's age, you know, it's got
lots of processes happening Which then isgives you a very, yeah, it's a lot to be
interested in and I think I mean I guessthat the the challenge is when you're
selling stuff, especially when you'retrying to sell further afield, you know,
not just You know at a market or somethingface to face is one thing but When you

(01:00:27):
have somebody else selling it for you ina shop or in a restaurant or something
They need to know what they're talkingabout as well And because yeah, a lot
of it is about confidence basically if acustomer says, oh, this looks a bit cloudy
Yeah, and then the waiter says oh god.
Yeah.
Sorry.
Hang on.
I'll check on that Then you'relike instantly the customer's
like something's really wrong.
Yeah, whereas if the wait is ableto see say, Oh yeah, no, no, don't

(01:00:49):
worry at all, it's unfiltered, it'sfrom a natural producer and it's,
the cloudiness is just part of thething and they can explain it, it's a
tanning haze or it's whatever it is.
Education.
And it won't affect.
So that, so like thateducation is important.
Um, but, but I guess.
A lot of that is people can transferover from wine if you know that what

(01:01:09):
they know about natural wine can applyto cider as well about how you know
about all those things about tannins andabout fermentation and aging and stuff.
There's a lot of crossover so it's justabout getting to people to understand
roughly how that works.
How it works.
So I'm kind of curious, wherecan people get your, your cider?

(01:01:31):
They can get it, I mean they cancome to the farm, they're very
welcome to come here to buy.
We do an open day once a month,the second Saturday of the month.
Second Saturday of the month.
From April through toSeptember, we do an open day.
We always have stuff to taste on theopen days, and then people can bring a
picnic and just hang out in the orchard.
Wow, lovely, wow.
Buy a bottle and we'lllend them some glasses.

(01:01:52):
Fantastic.
Thank you.
Have a drink.
And then, I mean, you can buy lots of,like in the UK, a lot of, we, we tend
to sell to independent bottle shops andto restaurants and sometimes to pubs
and sometimes to bars, like wine bars.
Um.
Are there some bars in, um, Bristol thatthey might be able to find or, or shops?
Um, Bristol, um, Corks of Cotton,Corks of North Street, um,

(01:02:17):
Native Vine, um, I'm sure I'llforget somebody, Grape and Grind.
The North Street Cheese Shop,and there's a couple, there's
definitely a couple of others soI apologize if I've forgotten you.
And, and then restaurants, Marmostocked some of our stuff, Bullrush,
Wilsons, um, Bertha's Pizza, Roots, um.

(01:02:37):
And then further afield to like,we distribute via the Fine Cider
Company in London, um, so they, theycan supply nationwide to the trade.
They have a shop on the weekendsin London Fields now in East
London, and then there's lots of,obviously, independent places.
They do online and also the Catin the Glass, based in Manchester.
So they stock our stuff online.

(01:02:57):
Nicky's great, doing a great job there.
Abel in Scotland and then variousother people who are supplied.
Primarily the United Kingdom?
Yeah, primarily, and thenin Belgium via El Cider.
Oh, nice, El Cider.
And Cecile, who are really lovely.
Distributors and then in Japan via I'mgonna embarrass myself if I try and

(01:03:20):
pronounce this Via Limited so they area Kind of it's like a family business
so they were a sake brewery and aBottle shop and bar and they import
mostly craft beer and some cider.
Okay, they're really cool guys and inchina Again, I can't remember the name

(01:03:44):
of the company in the past, but yeah,it's very like minimal distribution.
It'll be minimal.
That was cool.
Yeah.
I mean, it's quite.
That was quite a, that was quitea learning experience, big time
going to China because with Belgium,obviously we're not in the EU anymore
sadly, but most of the procedures Ithink are roughly the same as they

(01:04:07):
were, so it's not that complicated.
And actually Japan felt relatively,I mean they dealt with it, but for
China like there's loads more we hadto do for Chinese, we had to like
register with the Chinese governmentas a food producer and then send them.
Like environmental health inspectionreports, and we had to make loads
of documents, and like we had to buya stamp our own That's really funny

(01:04:30):
Like maybe I shouldn't say this inpublic, but we had to like make a
stamp like an official stamp and thenstamp our own documents I guess in a
big company that makes sense when it'sjust me and Becky Yeah, right, right.
Writing the documents and stamping them.
It feels a bit funny.
But yeah, I mean that's cool, andI think We've had other interest in
terms of export We have sent, actuallya little bit has gone to the U.

(01:04:52):
S.
via Ancho in Washington.
Okay, I imagine people afterlistening to this conversation,
they'll knock on your door.
Yeah, hopefully, send us an email.
Or, or come over on the cider tour andwe'll just drink it up in the orchard.
I think that sounds likea very good idea to me.
Yeah, definitely.
Well, look, I really wantto thank you for dinner,

(01:05:14):
chit chatting and just bringme into your life here and
showing me what you're doing.
It's quite exciting.
And I think you're spot on here.
You're good.
Thank you.
It's nice to hear.
It's exciting.
Very happy to have you come visit.
Thanks for thanks for coming Find linksto wilding cider and all the mentions
in this here episode 441 of cider chatby going to CiderChat.com and make sure

(01:05:40):
while you're online to sign up now forthe waitlist for the upcoming Totally
Cider Tour UK edition for this year 2025
And with that I leave you here.
This is A Ria Windcallersigning off for now.
Looking forward toseeing you in Ciderville.

(01:06:06):
We like cider.
We like ponds.
We love orchards.
And having fun there is a reason.
There is a reason why we do it like this.
Oh yes there is.
There is a reason why we do it like this.

(01:06:26):
Oh yes there is.
There is a reason whywe drink it like this.
Oh yes there is.
There is a reason.
We like walking through theorchards, dancing in the streets.
Smelling all the blossoms,kicking up our feet.
We like cider, we like ponds, welike orchards, having some fun.

(01:06:47):
There is a reason, there is areason why we do it like this.
Oh yes there is, there is areason why we do it like this.
Oh, yes, there is.
There is a reason whywe drinking like this.
Oh yes, there is.

(01:07:08):
There is a, we like walkingthrough the orchards, dancing
in the streets, smelling all theblossoms, kicking, kicking up a feet.
We like, oh yes, we do.
Oh yes we do.

(01:07:28):
We love orchards.
Having some fun.
There is a reason.
There is a reason why we do we like.
This is a reason why we do we like this.
There is a reason whywe drink it like this.
We like walking down the orchards, dancingin the streets, snailing all the blossoms.

(01:07:54):
Kicking, kicking up a,
we,
we,
we
having some fun,

(01:08:18):
yeehaw.

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441: Wilding Cider and the Rural Method | Somerset, UK

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}441: Wilding Cider and the Rural Method | Somerset, UK