April 15, 2025 • 31 mins
Atty. Dan Artaev is back on the show today to discuss critical legal protections for transportation businesses concerning online reputations and defamation risks!
Dan highlights how false reviews and Freight Guard reports can harm carriers' opportunities in the spot market, shares a cautionary case where a broker faced punitive damages for posting defamatory reports without substantiated claims, leading to the broker's business demise, the complexities introduced by double brokering, and the importance of maintaining open communication between brokers and carriers, building trustworthy relationships, and promptly addressing complaints to avoid further legal complications!
About Dan Artaev
Dan is the founder and managing partner of Artaev at Law PLLC, a metro Detroit law firm that works with innovators and business owners across the United States. Defending carriers against online reputation attacks has been one of his firm’s focus areas from day one. Dan takes great pride in helping smaller operations protect their rights, and gets particularly excited when he has the opportunity to use his multi-lingual skills to communicate within the transportation community.
Dan has been practicing law since 2010, and is a former State of Michigan Assistant Attorney General.
Connect with Dan
- Website: https://artaevatlaw.com/
- Email: dan@artaevatlaw.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Came back with a bank window down yelling now money anything hey oh got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when I'm getting to the back hey Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when the lane moving fast hey Let them all cross if they hate then let them made them make a bigger balls.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hey what is up ladies and gentlemen? We are back. We are live. It is the Freight Coach podcast, the top podcast in transportation coming to you guys every single weekday, 8:30am Pacific, 10:30 Central to break down some industry headlines. But most importantly, you guys provide some actual insight into what you can do with all of this information. If this is your first time tuning in, welcome. This is the real set of freight, ladies and gentlemen. And I say that before every single show. And what I mean by that is I only speak with transportation professionals because at the end of the day, you guys, I want to talk to the right individuals who have done what you're looking to do or who are currently doing what you're trying to achieve.
(01:00):
So you can take that information, apply it, utilize it, and see a meaningful difference in your business and your life. Happy Tuesday, everybody. I got a very special guest for you guys here today. I'm going to bring him up in a second, but I just wanted to put this little weekly reminder out there that we have a newsletter that will be dropping tomorrow. I don't auto sign anybody up for it, but if you want to go to the FreightCoach.com and it will auto prompt you to register, we talk rates, diesel prices, current industry trending and trends and everything out there. But just go in and register for it again. I don't auto sign and sell out my contact list because I personally hate that when people do that to me.
(01:38):
But with that being said, you guys, we got a lawyer on the show today. And the disclaimer that I always need to put out there is he isn't an attorney. He's just not your attorney. And if you need counsel, you need to seek counsel. Everything that we talk about on this show today is just a literal conversation. And with that being said, I have my man Dan. Gosh dang it, I'm gonna butcher your last name artave back on the show.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
That is perfect.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Oh my gosh. I, I, I got, I psyched myself out there, Dan. I pulled you up before I introduced you and I saw your face and I'm like, oh God, I'm gonna drive a butcher's name. But hey, we're, we got that locked in and you know, you're back on the show here, Dan. So thank you so much for taking some time to jump back on here today.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Hey, Chris, thanks for having me back. Always a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
No, you know, I, I love bringing, you know, people from all walks of the industry on the show because, you know, as were talking before went on, man, there's so much stuff that businesses need to be prepared for. And then when you hire people on top of that, you know what your, you know, your employees, they represent your company and there's a bunch of stuff that can happen and know there's always cases out there. But, you know, I, I want to talk a little, you know, kind of a continuation about what we had initially talked about when you were on the show back in October. And that's like the what carriers can do to protect their business. Right.
(02:59):
Like when it comes down to online reviews, freight guard reports, there's a lot of damning stuff that gets posted out there about them that in today's environment is extremely detrimental to their companies.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's still a problem today, just like it was in October. The thing is, the transportation industry is unique. You have the spot market, which plays such a big role in the business of so many carriers. And to be able to function in the spot market, you have to have a very good, pretty much flawless online reputation. But the problem with that is there's not many controls as though what gets posted online about a carrier. And sometimes there'll be statements out there that are downright false and have a very detrimental impact on a carrier's business.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah. So, you know, freight cards come to mind for me first. Right. Because Carrier411 has a massive online review platform out there based on, you know, what somebody's perception of a carrier's performance or a broker's experience with said carrier out there. How much of that can, like could a carrier, you know, obviously, if it's false. Right. Can they use against a broker and is there any possible recourse that a carrier could go out and use that to, you know, to possibly. Is it, you know, defamation or slander or something like that?
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Yeah, absolutely. And postings online, if it's a false statement of fact, it is defamatory and that's defamation's just, you know, it's called button slander. It's called libel sometimes. And, but it's all the same thing. It's a false statement that damages somebody's reputation in a business context. Obviously that means that they lose money, lose potential business and so, yeah, that's absolutely a liability. So when somebody goes out and posts a freight guard or a report to, you know, dat or go highway, I mean, carrier 411 is not the only one that's out there. But yeah, and I mean, if the statement is false, it's damaging and it's a liability. So.
(05:17):
And that kind of brings me back to the, one of the points that I think I made earlier was that as a broker, it's very important to have controls in place over who's actually posting your fragrant reports or statements on behalf of your company. Because very easily can somebody come in and post a report or a statement on behalf of your company, just like a, you know, heat of the moment, I want to tell this guy to go screw himself. And you know, you end up in court and you didn't even know this guy was out there doing this. So, you know, I, I've worked with brokers as well and I have advised them, look, you have to have a process in place. And for carriers, of course, it's very distressing and devastating to see a report, especially when that report is false.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, I, you know, I was out at a conference this last week here, and there was actually, you know, it was a broker conference and there was actually a carrier that showed up to it. And I, I ended up talking to these guys for like 35, 40 minutes almost about kind of their experience in the market right now. And again, they know who they are. They said they were going to tune into the show here so they'll know what I'm talk about. But I don't want to put any names out there out of, you know, fear of repercussion for anybody. But like, I, I think we're at a point in this industry, Dan, where people, especially on the broker side, they need to be more open to having actual constructive conversations with carriers that they're working with out there because they're not your enemy.
(06:49):
Right. Like literally every single trucking company I've talked to, for the most part, right. Like, I'm not here to talk about the fringe of the industry because brokers are just as shitty. Hate to pop your guys'burst your bubbles out there. You guys brokers suck too. Okay? That's just my opinion here. And I think like, a lot of you guys need to realize that a lot of the complaints and concerns that carriers and other parties in the industry have are extremely valid. Right? Like it's razor thin margins on all sides of the industry. And if there's anything that's out there that is a detriment to a carrier success and just like there's another, you know, for a broker success out there, like these things need to be addressed.
(07:29):
But every time I talk to carriers, right, they have a mostly a very positive perception of brokers. They know that there's a lot of great brokers out there. They just want to, you know, bring to light like, hey guys, this is what's happening out there. And you know, from my perspective, like, dude, that's like, it's literally the whole point of this show, you know, like we have to put education out there. People need to hear the hard truth sometimes whether, you know, and then a lot of it is. And I try to do my best as a host to keep people's personal emotions kind of to the wayside if it's not constructive.
(08:02):
Right, but there are a lot of constructive conversations that need to be had out there and brokers need to understand what their failure to do in certain situations, the trickle down effect that can have out there in the carrier market. And if one of your brokers have a bad day and they all of a sudden want to go on a posting tirade about a carrier, what that could actually do to a trucking company in any market, but especially right now.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
That's absolutely right. And there's significant repercussions for the posting broker as well. I actually, I assisted with one, one such lawsuit a few years ago and it ended up basically ending this brokerage just because it was unable to deal with the legal repercussions of one of their brokers having posted a, a false review. And you know, I mean, I fault the broker there because they failed to adequately respond in a timely manner to a carrier's complaints and let it get all the way to litigation and we let it all and then didn't really bother to show up to court. But I mean that's an extreme situation, but it's serious. And Chris, you mentioned the importance of dialogue and I just wanted to mention that I just remembered something when you were talking about this.
(09:26):
So last year I was at the Broker Carrier Summit in Fort Worth and presenting with my partner from Carrier Defender about this very issue. The importance of monitoring your online reputation and what to do in a situation when somebody posts a false review. And one interesting thing that happened at the presentation was we had a couple of Carriers in the audience. And then towards the a broker came in and they had a very constructive back and forth, sort off the cuff after the fact kind of airing of grievances with each other. And I thought that was very good because again, it fosters communication and it really helped for the two sides of this industry to come in and just talk to each other. Yeah, it's the issue. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
No, and that's exactly it. Right Dan? Like, I think people, you know, everybody only views life through their perspective, right. Like and how things affect them personally and you know, I'm just as guilty of that out there. But most of what I hear in the market, it's extremely warranted. Right. Like a lot of their standpoints are extremely warranted. And again, I understand brokers have had stuff happen to them as well. I'm not here to talk about that again. I want to talk about an actual, like, I want people to be aware, mainly like, hey, what you do and say can and will be used against you at some point in time here. If you're not careful about this stuff.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Anything you post to the Internet, be prepared that it will be introduced in court at some point. That's just my personal rule for everything, dude.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Absolutely. Can you talk? You know, you had mentioned a case that you had personally were involved and could you give any specifics about maybe what was said online? If you can't, I completely understand. But like again I just want to bring more awareness of like for brokerage leaders to be like, hey, like have that single point of if you're going to post a review, it has to come through a couple of layers before it gets somewhere.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Oh sure. It's a public case because it was is federal litigation. So it's online. I won't get into all the details because I'll end up just talking for the rest of your podcast. But the general sense of it was that there was a, a carrier, it was based in California, broker was on the east coast, booked the load to pick up. I think it was a load of pickles in Alabama. It was set for 2pm for pickup. The carrier, or rather the broker's agent, I think it was. You know how the broker is a brokerage company, they have a lot brokers working for him. I wanted to check to make sure that the delivery was still going on time. Problem was it was eight hours before the scheduled delivery time. The driver was taking his 10 hour mandated rest so didn't answer his phone.
(12:34):
The broker started freaking out trying to contact the broker on the west coast. Problem with that is it was four in the morning on the west coast and although my client would get into the office at 5:30, it was 4 so you know, so couldn't reach anyone. And you know, even though the load was still on schedule and everything started posting freight guards. And I say freight guards because there was one freight guard posted before the carrier even got into the office on the west coast. There was another freight guard posted a few hours later and a third freight guard. And these freight guards just got more and more absurd.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
And they just said all these guys lied. They never had a trucker, even a truck in the vicinity. They never were going to pick this up. And all this stuff that was just completely false. You call a driver in the middle of their mandated break. Yeah, I mean they're not going to answer or if they do answer, they're probably going to use some salty language, you know what I mean? And then so there was like this big blow up. And of course it affected the carrier's reputation to have these freight guards. And this is an established carrier, so it wasn't like it so completely derailed their business. But anyway, were able to work with local counsel, I think this broker was in Virginia, so we needed to work with local counsel in Virginia, take them to court.
(14:16):
The broker didn't really bother taking this seriously. And then it ended up the court issued a default judgment including punitive damages against this broker for failing to, you know, even present an adequate defense. Yeah, I mean it's an extreme situation, but it just shows you that if you're a broker and you have, and even if you don't have controls and the carrier starts complaining to you about a freight guard, I mean, take it seriously, at least investigate and follow up on it. Don't ignore this.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
I want to ask you something then. And again, if you can't answer this by all, like obviously that's completely fine. But like, you know a lot outside of the broker peppering them with freight guard reports and everything else, it's pretty standard practice for brokers to after they book a load with a carrier to verify details. Right. Verify that the driver is who they say they are, they have the truck number that they say they are in all of that stuff. And again, it's a verification process that I've had to do literally my entire life as a freight broker. What can a broker say in that moment if they find out that like, hey, maybe the driver's not who they say they are. Like, were given certain information about a driver we call. It's clearly not said driver who answered the phone. And is there.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
What.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
What can we do in that moment besides call the trucking company and be like, hey, I called this guy. He's not who you said they were. Is like, what. What should we do in that moment?
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Well, again, I recommend taking that step. First of all, verify with the trucking company and say, what's the deal here? Do you have a good explanation? And if they don't, I think there is absolutely no problem with posting a true statement. Look, we got this information. We were not able to verify. We have concerns. You know, we talked to the trucking company. We're not able to get a legitimate, you know, verification that's true. And truth is the best defense to a defamation claim.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
It can't be a false statement if it's true. Right. So for sure.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Yeah. And there's just, you know, because that's just one of, you know, I'm trying to tread lightly in what I say because again, my experiences with some of these things that are talked about are so slim compared to the people who are out there just doing the right thing. Right. Who are just working hard. They're just trying to provide for their family. So I try and play that fine line. But I also like to bring awareness to the fact that, like, this stuff does go on and there are valid complaints that brokers have. And how do we protect our organizations at the end of the day? Because, you know, man, it takes a very long time to find shippers that are going to contract with you to haul their freight.
(17:08):
And it takes one bad situation to literally lose years worth of relationships and stuff like that. What, what could a carrier or what could a broker do if, say, you know, there's a load that got picked up and, you know, maybe there was an exchange had between the broker and the carrier that was out there and they were, you know, the broker maybe accused the carrier of something that wasn't accurate. And then the carrier would send maybe like a, A. I don't want to call it like a cease and desist, but like, they would send him a document that says that you cannot post anything about us online. Like, you know, it. Like, is that a thing that people should possibly look into in those moments?
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Well, yeah, and usually any sort of formal letter, I assume it would come from an attorney. Or even if it doesn't, I, I still think that any sort of broker just like any other business should have some sort of legal, even if not a full time attorney, but just an attorney that they could call and say, hey, what should we do about this? Because it's a very fact specific situation. You know, I've been in situations where I've reviewed these sorts of letters from, for actually, for a broker. I, I reviewed a letter and I said, look, this is completely not complete nonsense. Your statements were true. So they say they're going to take you to court and they're going to, you know, or they want a crazy amount of money to settle this case.
(18:43):
And I just say, look, you can't, you can't do anything in the situation. Let them take it to court and have them prove it. I mean, there's not much you can do. But again, it comes down to the specific facts of the case. And as an attorney, what we are trained to do is, you know, the law generally and then you have the specific facts that are presented to you and you know how to evaluate those facts against the law and then just come to a conclusion of what the best outcome, best recommendation in a particular situation is. But it's really hard to talk at absolutes. What can they do? I would say call a lawyer and let the lawyer advise you for sure.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
You know, like, dude, I've seen it happen a few times in my career where you know, a load was picked up and then, you know, it was, you better sign this agreement and pay us X amount of money or we're not going to deliver the load at all. And you know, it's, it was like, it was a definite hostage and extortion situation for sure. And it was, you know, if this doesn't happen, you know, like there was, I don't want to get into the specifics of what was going on, but essentially a carrier picked up a load for a broker and they held the load hostage. They demanded additional compensation, like an absurd amount of money at that point. And then they said that we're going to hold on to this load unless you pay us this money and then sign this.
(20:17):
I'm drawing a blank on like the, the name, like the contract that they wanted him to sign, essentially stating that like once you sign this, you cannot post a negative review about us online. You cannot do anything.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
What?
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah. And if once we receive the money, we'll deliver the load.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Yeah, well, that's illegal too. It's blackmail or civil extortion is the appropriate term. I think I have an Article about that on my website.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
If anybody's interested in learning more about that.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
But yeah, I've heard, I do. And that's not like a one off thing, man. I've heard that a few times, like more than I'm actually proud to admit. Where situations like that have happened or after the load was picked up, it was essentially, you're gonna do this for us or we're not going to deliver the load. We will, you know, it will essentially disappear. And we have a way of going around this.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Well, I, I think what sometimes people forget to is in that situation you're getting into the boundaries of criminals law.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Effectively stealing a load. And you as a broker. I, I don't think it'd be, it'd be wrong to contact the local police department if you know where the load is and say, look, these guys have stolen this load and can you secure it at the very least?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
You know what I mean? And I don't think that is a, I don't think that's an extreme reaction. And I think at the end of the day you can go to civil court and fight over damages all day long, but at the, you know, the immediate need is to secure the load and make sure it goes where it needs to go because otherwise it's theft.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah. And that, you know, I know that there's probably nothing you can say in this moment, but with double brokering being a thing and if that situation would arise, I mean, we don't even know who has possession of the freight at that time. And you know what I mean? So it's like that. I think that's a lot of people's biggest fear out there, Dan, is they're going to understand after the fact. And again, like this is why I always tell individuals that I speak with like you need to double check and triple check information with who's hauling your freight, what's on the side of their cab, whatever you need to do to ensure that truck is the one that gets loaded at the shipper.
(22:39):
Because like, you know, dude, there's a lot of situations that arise like this that don't make it into the news, that don't make it to court. And then like people are just paying stuff under the table to make sure that this stuff gets delivered and stuff like that. So it's like there's a lot of people who are in a lot is a relative statement. Don't, don't take What I'm, you know, as a literal statement, but like, I mean like these situations happen, Dan. And you know, it's essentially you don't know who has possession of the freight. You don't even know who you can call. The FBI is not going to do anything about it. You know, I mean you can't just call, you know, the local authorities and they'll be like, we don't know where this is, man.
(23:14):
Go like go, you know, have your insurance pay for it.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
No, then that's the problem too. And I, this is why, I completely understand why these platforms are out there, these review platforms and they serve a purpose. Absolutely. What, what we really try to focus on both at my firm, our tablet law and you know, with our partnership at Carrier Defender is trying to make sure that the good guys get protected too and don't get swept up in the, in this tide against the fraudulent bad guys.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yeah. And no, and I'm right there with you. Right. And that's why it's like I always want to highlight the right carriers that are out there. And you know, again, and that's why I've said on the show numerous times the only way to fight fraud, you guys, is to use the exact same trucking companies that you have already verified that are legitimate and then just continue to book freight with them. Stop going out to the open market for every little opportunity that you get. Try and cultivate some relationships that are out there. Because the carriers that we use repeatedly and the carriers that I speak with on this show and know personally, they all say the same things, you guys, they want consistent business, right?
(24:22):
Like, I understand the desire to go out and make an extra 50 bucks on this one load, but like it's not worth it. I'm sitting here telling you as somebody who has brokered tens of thousands of truckloads in my career, every time you think you're saving a little bit of money, it costs you in one way or another. That's why I am all about reutilizing capacity, that closed loop capacity network because there are far more quality trucking companies out there than most brokers even realize. And they're costing themselves opportunities. It might not be today, but eventually it's going to bite them. And you know, from my perspective and from my seat, it's always worth the additional money to use my trusted carriers that I know that when we contract with them, they're going to keep us informed no matter what's going on out there.
(25:09):
And every time I hear another story of from another broker or another trucking company about how they got duped. And it's just like, man, I just wish people would take five seconds on the front end here. Trust your gut. More times than not your gut's going to tell you when something's off. You know it. Trust me, like I've been in enough situations, I've talked to enough people where if it doesn't feel right, if that doesn't pass that smell test, walk away. I don't care how much money you think you're going to make in that instance.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Right. And that's absolutely the correct advice. I agree 100%. There's that business consideration of like, you know, I want to save some money and we're all running raised within margins. I understand that. But at the same time, I'm going to tell you right now that 50 bucks that you think you'll save is nothing compared to the legal fees you'll incur if something goes wrong or you have to deal with the ladders or litigation or anything like that can arise out of this or the damage to your company, your broker, brand from having used a non reputable carrier or you know, if a load gets stolen or something like that and that, that's out there, that's unfortunate and that's a bigger problem that either you and I can solve at this very moment.
(26:33):
And what all we can do is kind of just advise onto best practices and help people deal with the realities of the current market.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
No, absolutely, Dan. And for all the carriers out there who watch this show as well and listen to this, vet your brokers, vet anybody who's giving you any freight and especially in today's market when it seems too good to be true and the allure of maybe getting some additional money out of this situation on a line haul, like hypothetical example of a load always pays $1,000, but this one for some reason pays 2000 or 2500. That's a red flag, you guys. And just double check this information. If they won't provide PO numbers, if they won't provide a shipping phone number, any of that stuff, you guys walk away from that situation because you just do not know if you're even going to get paid for that and that's going to be a complete loss out there. But Dan, I appreciate your time man.
(27:29):
These always fly by. And you know, I, I appreciate the non legal, legal advice out there and just you know, helping people go in certain directions, because at the end of the day, man, it's always easy to talk about this stuff when you're in a controlled environment and you're not going through it. I just want people to know that there are options for them in the event they find themselves in this situation. And one of those is to reach out to you, man. So how does anybody reach out to you if they're in a situation that we've been talking about today and they're like, I just need. I just need some advice or, you know, they need to connect with somebody?
Speaker 3 (28:01):
Well, you can always find me on LinkedIn. And if you want to check out my website, www.rtaveaw.com, there's a contact box there that you can fill out and reach out and, you know, we'll direct your situation in the appropriate direction. If carrier, defender, a partnership seems to be a good fit, we'll help you get set up with them. They're just really good about solving a lot of issues in an expedited manner. And if it needs to go to litigation, I will certainly assist you with that and get you to the right local lawyer if it's not a. Not a Michigan case. But yeah, Again, thanks a lot for having me on today. Chris, it was a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Hey, anytime, Dan. I appreciate it. That is going to be it for today, ladies and gentlemen, as always. If you got value in what you heard, subscribe to the show. If you're feeling really ambitious after this one, which you better because Dan literally just laid out a bunch of great information. Rank the show on itunes and Spotify, because if you saw value, that's how your network's going to see value as well. I appreciate you guys. I love you guys, and we'll be talking to you soon. We don't, we don't do any cool outro stuff, man.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
We're.
Came back with a bank window down yelling now money anything hey oh got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when I'm getting to the back hey Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when the lane moving fast hey Let them all cross if they hate then let them made them make a bigger balls.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hey what is up ladies and gentlemen? We are back. We are live. It is the Freight Coach podcast, the top podcast in transportation coming to you guys every single weekday, 8:30am Pacific, 10:30 Central to break down some industry headlines. But most importantly, you guys provide some actual insight into what you can do with all of this information. If this is your first time tuning in, welcome. This is the real set of freight, ladies and gentlemen. And I say that before every single show. And what I mean by that is I only speak with transportation professionals because at the end of the day, you guys, I want to talk to the right individuals who have done what you're looking to do or who are currently doing what you're trying to achieve.
(01:00):
So you can take that information, apply it, utilize it, and see a meaningful difference in your business and your life. Happy Tuesday, everybody. I got a very special guest for you guys here today. I'm going to bring him up in a second, but I just wanted to put this little weekly reminder out there that we have a newsletter that will be dropping tomorrow. I don't auto sign anybody up for it, but if you want to go to the FreightCoach.com and it will auto prompt you to register, we talk rates, diesel prices, current industry trending and trends and everything out there. But just go in and register for it again. I don't auto sign and sell out my contact list because I personally hate that when people do that to me.
(01:38):
But with that being said, you guys, we got a lawyer on the show today. And the disclaimer that I always need to put out there is he isn't an attorney. He's just not your attorney. And if you need counsel, you need to seek counsel. Everything that we talk about on this show today is just a literal conversation. And with that being said, I have my man Dan. Gosh dang it, I'm gonna butcher your last name artave back on the show.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
That is perfect.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Oh my gosh. I, I, I got, I psyched myself out there, Dan. I pulled you up before I introduced you and I saw your face and I'm like, oh God, I'm gonna drive a butcher's name. But hey, we're, we got that locked in and you know, you're back on the show here, Dan. So thank you so much for taking some time to jump back on here today.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Hey, Chris, thanks for having me back. Always a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
No, you know, I, I love bringing, you know, people from all walks of the industry on the show because, you know, as were talking before went on, man, there's so much stuff that businesses need to be prepared for. And then when you hire people on top of that, you know what your, you know, your employees, they represent your company and there's a bunch of stuff that can happen and know there's always cases out there. But, you know, I, I want to talk a little, you know, kind of a continuation about what we had initially talked about when you were on the show back in October. And that's like the what carriers can do to protect their business. Right.
(02:59):
Like when it comes down to online reviews, freight guard reports, there's a lot of damning stuff that gets posted out there about them that in today's environment is extremely detrimental to their companies.
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yeah, absolutely. And it's still a problem today, just like it was in October. The thing is, the transportation industry is unique. You have the spot market, which plays such a big role in the business of so many carriers. And to be able to function in the spot market, you have to have a very good, pretty much flawless online reputation. But the problem with that is there's not many controls as though what gets posted online about a carrier. And sometimes there'll be statements out there that are downright false and have a very detrimental impact on a carrier's business.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah. So, you know, freight cards come to mind for me first. Right. Because Carrier411 has a massive online review platform out there based on, you know, what somebody's perception of a carrier's performance or a broker's experience with said carrier out there. How much of that can, like could a carrier, you know, obviously, if it's false. Right. Can they use against a broker and is there any possible recourse that a carrier could go out and use that to, you know, to possibly. Is it, you know, defamation or slander or something like that?
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Yeah, absolutely. And postings online, if it's a false statement of fact, it is defamatory and that's defamation's just, you know, it's called button slander. It's called libel sometimes. And, but it's all the same thing. It's a false statement that damages somebody's reputation in a business context. Obviously that means that they lose money, lose potential business and so, yeah, that's absolutely a liability. So when somebody goes out and posts a freight guard or a report to, you know, dat or go highway, I mean, carrier 411 is not the only one that's out there. But yeah, and I mean, if the statement is false, it's damaging and it's a liability. So.
(05:17):
And that kind of brings me back to the, one of the points that I think I made earlier was that as a broker, it's very important to have controls in place over who's actually posting your fragrant reports or statements on behalf of your company. Because very easily can somebody come in and post a report or a statement on behalf of your company, just like a, you know, heat of the moment, I want to tell this guy to go screw himself. And you know, you end up in court and you didn't even know this guy was out there doing this. So, you know, I, I've worked with brokers as well and I have advised them, look, you have to have a process in place. And for carriers, of course, it's very distressing and devastating to see a report, especially when that report is false.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, I, you know, I was out at a conference this last week here, and there was actually, you know, it was a broker conference and there was actually a carrier that showed up to it. And I, I ended up talking to these guys for like 35, 40 minutes almost about kind of their experience in the market right now. And again, they know who they are. They said they were going to tune into the show here so they'll know what I'm talk about. But I don't want to put any names out there out of, you know, fear of repercussion for anybody. But like, I, I think we're at a point in this industry, Dan, where people, especially on the broker side, they need to be more open to having actual constructive conversations with carriers that they're working with out there because they're not your enemy.
(06:49):
Right. Like literally every single trucking company I've talked to, for the most part, right. Like, I'm not here to talk about the fringe of the industry because brokers are just as shitty. Hate to pop your guys'burst your bubbles out there. You guys brokers suck too. Okay? That's just my opinion here. And I think like, a lot of you guys need to realize that a lot of the complaints and concerns that carriers and other parties in the industry have are extremely valid. Right? Like it's razor thin margins on all sides of the industry. And if there's anything that's out there that is a detriment to a carrier success and just like there's another, you know, for a broker success out there, like these things need to be addressed.
(07:29):
But every time I talk to carriers, right, they have a mostly a very positive perception of brokers. They know that there's a lot of great brokers out there. They just want to, you know, bring to light like, hey guys, this is what's happening out there. And you know, from my perspective, like, dude, that's like, it's literally the whole point of this show, you know, like we have to put education out there. People need to hear the hard truth sometimes whether, you know, and then a lot of it is. And I try to do my best as a host to keep people's personal emotions kind of to the wayside if it's not constructive.
(08:02):
Right, but there are a lot of constructive conversations that need to be had out there and brokers need to understand what their failure to do in certain situations, the trickle down effect that can have out there in the carrier market. And if one of your brokers have a bad day and they all of a sudden want to go on a posting tirade about a carrier, what that could actually do to a trucking company in any market, but especially right now.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
That's absolutely right. And there's significant repercussions for the posting broker as well. I actually, I assisted with one, one such lawsuit a few years ago and it ended up basically ending this brokerage just because it was unable to deal with the legal repercussions of one of their brokers having posted a, a false review. And you know, I mean, I fault the broker there because they failed to adequately respond in a timely manner to a carrier's complaints and let it get all the way to litigation and we let it all and then didn't really bother to show up to court. But I mean that's an extreme situation, but it's serious. And Chris, you mentioned the importance of dialogue and I just wanted to mention that I just remembered something when you were talking about this.
(09:26):
So last year I was at the Broker Carrier Summit in Fort Worth and presenting with my partner from Carrier Defender about this very issue. The importance of monitoring your online reputation and what to do in a situation when somebody posts a false review. And one interesting thing that happened at the presentation was we had a couple of Carriers in the audience. And then towards the a broker came in and they had a very constructive back and forth, sort off the cuff after the fact kind of airing of grievances with each other. And I thought that was very good because again, it fosters communication and it really helped for the two sides of this industry to come in and just talk to each other. Yeah, it's the issue. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
No, and that's exactly it. Right Dan? Like, I think people, you know, everybody only views life through their perspective, right. Like and how things affect them personally and you know, I'm just as guilty of that out there. But most of what I hear in the market, it's extremely warranted. Right. Like a lot of their standpoints are extremely warranted. And again, I understand brokers have had stuff happen to them as well. I'm not here to talk about that again. I want to talk about an actual, like, I want people to be aware, mainly like, hey, what you do and say can and will be used against you at some point in time here. If you're not careful about this stuff.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Anything you post to the Internet, be prepared that it will be introduced in court at some point. That's just my personal rule for everything, dude.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Absolutely. Can you talk? You know, you had mentioned a case that you had personally were involved and could you give any specifics about maybe what was said online? If you can't, I completely understand. But like again I just want to bring more awareness of like for brokerage leaders to be like, hey, like have that single point of if you're going to post a review, it has to come through a couple of layers before it gets somewhere.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Oh sure. It's a public case because it was is federal litigation. So it's online. I won't get into all the details because I'll end up just talking for the rest of your podcast. But the general sense of it was that there was a, a carrier, it was based in California, broker was on the east coast, booked the load to pick up. I think it was a load of pickles in Alabama. It was set for 2pm for pickup. The carrier, or rather the broker's agent, I think it was. You know how the broker is a brokerage company, they have a lot brokers working for him. I wanted to check to make sure that the delivery was still going on time. Problem was it was eight hours before the scheduled delivery time. The driver was taking his 10 hour mandated rest so didn't answer his phone.
(12:34):
The broker started freaking out trying to contact the broker on the west coast. Problem with that is it was four in the morning on the west coast and although my client would get into the office at 5:30, it was 4 so you know, so couldn't reach anyone. And you know, even though the load was still on schedule and everything started posting freight guards. And I say freight guards because there was one freight guard posted before the carrier even got into the office on the west coast. There was another freight guard posted a few hours later and a third freight guard. And these freight guards just got more and more absurd.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
And they just said all these guys lied. They never had a trucker, even a truck in the vicinity. They never were going to pick this up. And all this stuff that was just completely false. You call a driver in the middle of their mandated break. Yeah, I mean they're not going to answer or if they do answer, they're probably going to use some salty language, you know what I mean? And then so there was like this big blow up. And of course it affected the carrier's reputation to have these freight guards. And this is an established carrier, so it wasn't like it so completely derailed their business. But anyway, were able to work with local counsel, I think this broker was in Virginia, so we needed to work with local counsel in Virginia, take them to court.
(14:16):
The broker didn't really bother taking this seriously. And then it ended up the court issued a default judgment including punitive damages against this broker for failing to, you know, even present an adequate defense. Yeah, I mean it's an extreme situation, but it just shows you that if you're a broker and you have, and even if you don't have controls and the carrier starts complaining to you about a freight guard, I mean, take it seriously, at least investigate and follow up on it. Don't ignore this.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
I want to ask you something then. And again, if you can't answer this by all, like obviously that's completely fine. But like, you know a lot outside of the broker peppering them with freight guard reports and everything else, it's pretty standard practice for brokers to after they book a load with a carrier to verify details. Right. Verify that the driver is who they say they are, they have the truck number that they say they are in all of that stuff. And again, it's a verification process that I've had to do literally my entire life as a freight broker. What can a broker say in that moment if they find out that like, hey, maybe the driver's not who they say they are. Like, were given certain information about a driver we call. It's clearly not said driver who answered the phone. And is there.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
What.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
What can we do in that moment besides call the trucking company and be like, hey, I called this guy. He's not who you said they were. Is like, what. What should we do in that moment?
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Well, again, I recommend taking that step. First of all, verify with the trucking company and say, what's the deal here? Do you have a good explanation? And if they don't, I think there is absolutely no problem with posting a true statement. Look, we got this information. We were not able to verify. We have concerns. You know, we talked to the trucking company. We're not able to get a legitimate, you know, verification that's true. And truth is the best defense to a defamation claim.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
It can't be a false statement if it's true. Right. So for sure.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Yeah. And there's just, you know, because that's just one of, you know, I'm trying to tread lightly in what I say because again, my experiences with some of these things that are talked about are so slim compared to the people who are out there just doing the right thing. Right. Who are just working hard. They're just trying to provide for their family. So I try and play that fine line. But I also like to bring awareness to the fact that, like, this stuff does go on and there are valid complaints that brokers have. And how do we protect our organizations at the end of the day? Because, you know, man, it takes a very long time to find shippers that are going to contract with you to haul their freight.
(17:08):
And it takes one bad situation to literally lose years worth of relationships and stuff like that. What, what could a carrier or what could a broker do if, say, you know, there's a load that got picked up and, you know, maybe there was an exchange had between the broker and the carrier that was out there and they were, you know, the broker maybe accused the carrier of something that wasn't accurate. And then the carrier would send maybe like a, A. I don't want to call it like a cease and desist, but like, they would send him a document that says that you cannot post anything about us online. Like, you know, it. Like, is that a thing that people should possibly look into in those moments?
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Well, yeah, and usually any sort of formal letter, I assume it would come from an attorney. Or even if it doesn't, I, I still think that any sort of broker just like any other business should have some sort of legal, even if not a full time attorney, but just an attorney that they could call and say, hey, what should we do about this? Because it's a very fact specific situation. You know, I've been in situations where I've reviewed these sorts of letters from, for actually, for a broker. I, I reviewed a letter and I said, look, this is completely not complete nonsense. Your statements were true. So they say they're going to take you to court and they're going to, you know, or they want a crazy amount of money to settle this case.
(18:43):
And I just say, look, you can't, you can't do anything in the situation. Let them take it to court and have them prove it. I mean, there's not much you can do. But again, it comes down to the specific facts of the case. And as an attorney, what we are trained to do is, you know, the law generally and then you have the specific facts that are presented to you and you know how to evaluate those facts against the law and then just come to a conclusion of what the best outcome, best recommendation in a particular situation is. But it's really hard to talk at absolutes. What can they do? I would say call a lawyer and let the lawyer advise you for sure.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
You know, like, dude, I've seen it happen a few times in my career where you know, a load was picked up and then, you know, it was, you better sign this agreement and pay us X amount of money or we're not going to deliver the load at all. And you know, it's, it was like, it was a definite hostage and extortion situation for sure. And it was, you know, if this doesn't happen, you know, like there was, I don't want to get into the specifics of what was going on, but essentially a carrier picked up a load for a broker and they held the load hostage. They demanded additional compensation, like an absurd amount of money at that point. And then they said that we're going to hold on to this load unless you pay us this money and then sign this.
(20:17):
I'm drawing a blank on like the, the name, like the contract that they wanted him to sign, essentially stating that like once you sign this, you cannot post a negative review about us online. You cannot do anything.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
What?
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah. And if once we receive the money, we'll deliver the load.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Yeah, well, that's illegal too. It's blackmail or civil extortion is the appropriate term. I think I have an Article about that on my website.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
If anybody's interested in learning more about that.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
But yeah, I've heard, I do. And that's not like a one off thing, man. I've heard that a few times, like more than I'm actually proud to admit. Where situations like that have happened or after the load was picked up, it was essentially, you're gonna do this for us or we're not going to deliver the load. We will, you know, it will essentially disappear. And we have a way of going around this.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Well, I, I think what sometimes people forget to is in that situation you're getting into the boundaries of criminals law.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Effectively stealing a load. And you as a broker. I, I don't think it'd be, it'd be wrong to contact the local police department if you know where the load is and say, look, these guys have stolen this load and can you secure it at the very least?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
You know what I mean? And I don't think that is a, I don't think that's an extreme reaction. And I think at the end of the day you can go to civil court and fight over damages all day long, but at the, you know, the immediate need is to secure the load and make sure it goes where it needs to go because otherwise it's theft.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Yeah. And that, you know, I know that there's probably nothing you can say in this moment, but with double brokering being a thing and if that situation would arise, I mean, we don't even know who has possession of the freight at that time. And you know what I mean? So it's like that. I think that's a lot of people's biggest fear out there, Dan, is they're going to understand after the fact. And again, like this is why I always tell individuals that I speak with like you need to double check and triple check information with who's hauling your freight, what's on the side of their cab, whatever you need to do to ensure that truck is the one that gets loaded at the shipper.
(22:39):
Because like, you know, dude, there's a lot of situations that arise like this that don't make it into the news, that don't make it to court. And then like people are just paying stuff under the table to make sure that this stuff gets delivered and stuff like that. So it's like there's a lot of people who are in a lot is a relative statement. Don't, don't take What I'm, you know, as a literal statement, but like, I mean like these situations happen, Dan. And you know, it's essentially you don't know who has possession of the freight. You don't even know who you can call. The FBI is not going to do anything about it. You know, I mean you can't just call, you know, the local authorities and they'll be like, we don't know where this is, man.
(23:14):
Go like go, you know, have your insurance pay for it.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
No, then that's the problem too. And I, this is why, I completely understand why these platforms are out there, these review platforms and they serve a purpose. Absolutely. What, what we really try to focus on both at my firm, our tablet law and you know, with our partnership at Carrier Defender is trying to make sure that the good guys get protected too and don't get swept up in the, in this tide against the fraudulent bad guys.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yeah. And no, and I'm right there with you. Right. And that's why it's like I always want to highlight the right carriers that are out there. And you know, again, and that's why I've said on the show numerous times the only way to fight fraud, you guys, is to use the exact same trucking companies that you have already verified that are legitimate and then just continue to book freight with them. Stop going out to the open market for every little opportunity that you get. Try and cultivate some relationships that are out there. Because the carriers that we use repeatedly and the carriers that I speak with on this show and know personally, they all say the same things, you guys, they want consistent business, right?
(24:22):
Like, I understand the desire to go out and make an extra 50 bucks on this one load, but like it's not worth it. I'm sitting here telling you as somebody who has brokered tens of thousands of truckloads in my career, every time you think you're saving a little bit of money, it costs you in one way or another. That's why I am all about reutilizing capacity, that closed loop capacity network because there are far more quality trucking companies out there than most brokers even realize. And they're costing themselves opportunities. It might not be today, but eventually it's going to bite them. And you know, from my perspective and from my seat, it's always worth the additional money to use my trusted carriers that I know that when we contract with them, they're going to keep us informed no matter what's going on out there.
(25:09):
And every time I hear another story of from another broker or another trucking company about how they got duped. And it's just like, man, I just wish people would take five seconds on the front end here. Trust your gut. More times than not your gut's going to tell you when something's off. You know it. Trust me, like I've been in enough situations, I've talked to enough people where if it doesn't feel right, if that doesn't pass that smell test, walk away. I don't care how much money you think you're going to make in that instance.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
Right. And that's absolutely the correct advice. I agree 100%. There's that business consideration of like, you know, I want to save some money and we're all running raised within margins. I understand that. But at the same time, I'm going to tell you right now that 50 bucks that you think you'll save is nothing compared to the legal fees you'll incur if something goes wrong or you have to deal with the ladders or litigation or anything like that can arise out of this or the damage to your company, your broker, brand from having used a non reputable carrier or you know, if a load gets stolen or something like that and that, that's out there, that's unfortunate and that's a bigger problem that either you and I can solve at this very moment.
(26:33):
And what all we can do is kind of just advise onto best practices and help people deal with the realities of the current market.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
No, absolutely, Dan. And for all the carriers out there who watch this show as well and listen to this, vet your brokers, vet anybody who's giving you any freight and especially in today's market when it seems too good to be true and the allure of maybe getting some additional money out of this situation on a line haul, like hypothetical example of a load always pays $1,000, but this one for some reason pays 2000 or 2500. That's a red flag, you guys. And just double check this information. If they won't provide PO numbers, if they won't provide a shipping phone number, any of that stuff, you guys walk away from that situation because you just do not know if you're even going to get paid for that and that's going to be a complete loss out there. But Dan, I appreciate your time man.
(27:29):
These always fly by. And you know, I, I appreciate the non legal, legal advice out there and just you know, helping people go in certain directions, because at the end of the day, man, it's always easy to talk about this stuff when you're in a controlled environment and you're not going through it. I just want people to know that there are options for them in the event they find themselves in this situation. And one of those is to reach out to you, man. So how does anybody reach out to you if they're in a situation that we've been talking about today and they're like, I just need. I just need some advice or, you know, they need to connect with somebody?
Speaker 3 (28:01):
Well, you can always find me on LinkedIn. And if you want to check out my website, www.rtaveaw.com, there's a contact box there that you can fill out and reach out and, you know, we'll direct your situation in the appropriate direction. If carrier, defender, a partnership seems to be a good fit, we'll help you get set up with them. They're just really good about solving a lot of issues in an expedited manner. And if it needs to go to litigation, I will certainly assist you with that and get you to the right local lawyer if it's not a. Not a Michigan case. But yeah, Again, thanks a lot for having me on today. Chris, it was a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Hey, anytime, Dan. I appreciate it. That is going to be it for today, ladies and gentlemen, as always. If you got value in what you heard, subscribe to the show. If you're feeling really ambitious after this one, which you better because Dan literally just laid out a bunch of great information. Rank the show on itunes and Spotify, because if you saw value, that's how your network's going to see value as well. I appreciate you guys. I love you guys, and we'll be talking to you soon. We don't, we don't do any cool outro stuff, man.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
We're.
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