June 9, 2025 • 32 mins
Today, Bob King of Sage Freight brings his over thirty years of experience in the transportation industry and the entrepreneurial mindset that keeps him thriving and growing!
Bob emphasizes prioritizing revenue-generating activities, accepting personal liability impacts decision-making, and promoting long-term customer relationships. Tune in to unpack more from this episode!
About Bob King
Robert King is a veteran logistics executive and entrepreneur with over 30 years of experience in transportation and supply chain leadership. He is the Founder and CEO of Sage Freight, launched in October 2021 in Brentwood, Tennessee. Under his leadership, Sage Freight has grown into a high-performing logistics company with international operations and a strong cultural foundation built on people, purpose, and process.
Before Sage, Robert served as President of One Point Logistics in early 2020, where he was recruited to lead a turnaround of a 250-person operation.
From 2005 to 2020, Robert was the Founder and President of Cavalry Logistics, which he built from the ground up without outside funding. In 2010, he sold Cavalry to Universal Logistics Holdings but continued to lead the company as President for nearly a decade post-acquisition.
Robert began his career at C.H. Robinson in August 1993, starting in the North Chicago office. He rose through the ranks to become Transportation Manager and, ultimately, General Manager of the Nashville office.
He later served as Director of Logistics at Western Express from 2004 to 2005, where he launched a brokerage team that achieved a multimillion-dollar run rate in its first year and helped establish a high-performing, cross-functional culture.
Robert holds a Bachelor of Arts in Global Security and Nuclear Warfare from the University of Wisconsin–Madison. Known for his strategic clarity, cultural leadership, and operational excellence, he continues to shape the future of freight through innovation, acquisition, and people-first growth.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Came back with a bank window down yelling now money anything hey oh Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when I'm get to the back hey Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when the lane moving fast hey Let them all cross if they hate then let them hate them Make a bigger ball.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
What is up ladies and gentlemen? We are back, we are live. It is Freight Coach Podcast. My name is Chris Jolly and I am your host. And you guys, we're just going to really jump right in. I got a very special guest for you guys here today. It's not very often that you get to sit down with a multi time founder and then somebody who's been in the industry almost as long as I've been alive. Not trying to date him, but he's been in the industry for over 30 years. I'm pushing 40 though, so I guess I can have a little bit of credibility at that point. But you know, there's a lot of practices out there that are changing in the industry and then there's some that are never going to change. Right.
(00:59):
And those fundamentals and you know, and then also the grit, the determination and the long term thinking that you need to bring to the table out there. So I have the founder of Stage Freight, Mr. Bob King on the show this morning. Bob, thank you so much for taking the time to join me.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Thanks for having me here.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
You know, and like were talking last week, I, I was like, I don't even know where to start. There's so many things I want to ask when it comes down to it. But you know, I guess the first thing is, you know, what made you want to become an entrepreneur, Bob? Like what was that thing? Was there like a moment or was it kind of a catalyst of a bunch of things? You're like, I got to go out and do this on my own because I think I can do it better.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Well, I think it was my start at C.H. Robinson and back in the day before they went public, it was just such an amazing organization and each different branch was its own business basically. And you were out there fighting for freight, but fighting against each other. And you know, I don't think that Robinson gets the kudos that it should from when you look at from 2005 basically and below that, their stock was traded at incredible levels. The people who are running that organization, Greg Govind, Sid Verdorn, Barry Butsoe, you know, Mark Walker, Jim Best, I have some really amazing people on my board that were for Robinson. It, it was a different culture.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
What do you think that there's, you know, speaking of big business and you know, when you're out there trying to build a big. Is. Is there a point where it gets too big, where you feel like the, those tangible things that kind of got you up and running, you know, building up those customer loyalty, the employee loyalty. Do you think that there's companies that it reaches a point where it loses that?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Yeah, I think, you know, we're all building a business to try to get away from a bureaucracy, only to become a bureaucracy. And that's really what the fight is and how your leadership team is and how you communicate and the way that you value people or not. And I think that's the challenge. The footer or the foundation of Robinson is probably not there anymore with all the different changes in leadership. But I fight every day. My job is to make sure that my culture is maintained and that's, you know, that's the number one thing. Our team members are the number one thing.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
How, how have you really had that be your focal point when you went out there and you started Sage Freight? You know, like, I want to go back to the early days there of, you know, back when you guys decided to go out and go on this venture. What was some of those early challenges that, you know, you had that you faced right away were kind of shaped how you were going to establish your culture today?
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Well, I think it, I mean, it comes from when I started cavalry logistics in 05 and I got to, you know, I sold it in 10 and got to see how corporate America can change an organization. And when we started SAGE in 2021 of October, we had over 30 people come from Cavalry. And so that footing that yeast that was there, that incubator, I mean, they knew how we operated. A lot of those people were driving the culture there and that entrepreneurial spirit, but also, you know, grinding and knowing that this business is really tough.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
In the beginning, talking about the beginning there, what were some of those early challenges? Because, you know, I like, I see a lot of this stuff, Bob, on social media where it's just so easy, right? Like you and I were of talking about this when we had, you know, originally chatted like, I, as somebody who, you know, I've only been self employed for five years now, right. Like, the only thing I'm very, very confident in is how little I know at this point when it comes to like building A business long term and really what to expect out there. But you know, you scroll on social media for five seconds and you instantly feel behind because clearly everybody's got to figure it out. Everybody's making a million plus dollars a year. They all have yachts and everything else out there.
(05:03):
But, you know, when we had originally chatted, you know, you were talking about like your sole focus when you went out and started Sage. So like what was that when you're going out there and really trying to get your business off the ground? What were some of those early hurdles?
Speaker 3 (05:19):
The biggest thing was trust. And we had to have the carrier community trust us, we had to have the banking community trust us, and then also customers. I mean, my first six months I was calling different funding organizations, trying to make sure that they understood who were and that our team came from Calvary and all the success we had there and sending them my business plans. I mean, RTs and giants like that you need to have on your side in order to move the business forward. And, you know, capital constraints are always difficult in a bureaucratic society or world. And when we operate and I'm using somebody else's money, I've got to deal with the politics. If I'm starting my own business, I got to deal with the, you know, the fact that I'm on the line for $20 million personal guarantees.
(06:09):
Those things are scary and they change the way that you approach business. And, you know, I can tell you this is only my second podcast or interview, and so I do a terrible job of communicating what Sage is about and how our company is founded. And that sometimes can be a detriment. But also, you know, there's so many conferences in these days that. So many distractions. And, you know, There are some CEOs who live at conferences and their businesses suffer because of it. And I don't go to a lot of conferences. I don't do a lot of this. It hurts when I'm in the banking community, but it sets the foundation that I'm the hardest working type of individual in our company. And I do all I can to make sure that I'm driving value every day.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
You know, Bob, that was one of the things that stuck out to me the most when we had chatted, right. Was your dedication to your business. And that's one thing that I'm really realizing as my brokerage grows and you know, the media company that I have grows is I have to be so mindful of my time. Like my time is everything. And it has to be 90 of my time has to be on revenue producing activities at that, this stage inside of my business. Right. Because like I had no customers in either of my companies that I've started. Right. I had zero revenue guarantee. I had zero anything. I've had to literally build everything up day one, $1.
(07:32):
And I, I see that out there where it's like, I can't go to all of these shows, I can't do a bunch of these things because, like, I have to be there when that opportunity falls into my lap. As you know, when you start your business and your brokerage, like getting those customers and that, you know, getting them as one thing, but then growing with them is an entire different ball game. And you have to be present in that. And I think, you know, like you said, you know, have $20 million of personal guarantees. I don't think people actually understand what a personal guarantee is on a loan. Right. That means Bob King is liable to pay back $20 million himself, not the business, if.
(08:11):
And this is if anything goes wrong, which when not advocating for, but that's a personal guarantee and that's a different level of stress and focus that most people never, ever will understand. So like, when I hear you say, like, you don't join podcasts, you don't go to these conferences because you have to be where your investment is. And when you are the leader of that organization, that makes complete and perfect sense.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Yeah. And it's not just, I mean, it's not just my money. I mean, we started Sage and made money in 10 weeks. And so were, again, were very blessed with the team members that we have. But then we also had some great investors early on, Jim Best and Mark Walker. And then there's another company, Jordan Partners, that have invested in us and we would have made the top 100 brokerages in our first three years of business. You know, we'll do probably 175 million. And so we're focused on the right things. But the biggest thing that I always have to focus on is no and I think that, you know, owning your own business or being part owner in a business, it sounds sexy until you're grinding 80 hours a week. And that's what this has been.
(09:19):
I mean, I started this a year before we actually opened up, getting all my legal documents and logos, branding, all of that stuff. I also spent a lot of time calling banks that I wanted to deal with. Like we use wintrust. They're an incredible partner. I called them before I was Able to. To be on their line, telling them that I was coming. You know, I pointed to the Fen. Same thing with Triumph Pay. I did the same thing. I told them, and I was like, you're going to want our business. You're going to want our business. And they're all like, we'll see, we'll see. And that same thing happens with private equity companies or family offices or, you know, VCs. I mean, you gotta. It is a grind, man.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
How important is it in those moments where, you know, I know my answer to this one, but I'd love to hear your response on the importance of being your own personal cheerleader. Because there's those moments where you know, you don't know, man. You don't know if it's all going to work out. You can sit here and boast and say, oh, everything's going to be great. Everything's going to be fine. We're going to do this, we're going to do that. But inevitably, those moments of doubt start to creep in. Like, wait, are we going to be okay? Like, is, am I going to have a house? You know, like, at least I've been faced with that, and I'm open about that. So how do you really attack those moments?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
I just work harder. And those. That is real. And every, you know, every day when I'm doing my job, you know, am I a phony or not? Am I really who I say I am? And. But the. The key is that I can't ever let my team see me in a time that I'm concerned like that. I mean, I have to be the biggest cheerleader. And, you know, I only own 24% of Sage, and so I own a lot less. I carry a huge risk, but we pushed as much of the stock out to our partners in the people. And I say partners, it means the people who are working at SAGE with me that, you know, when. When Robinson went public, 100 people became millionaires overnight.
(11:16):
And that was the most powerful thing that made me want to be an entrepreneur even more and how they reacted and the ownership that they had. And I'm trying to do the same thing here in just a different manner and a different time. But, yeah, it is running. Look at how many brokerages have gone out of business in the last year and a half and how difficult this environment has been. And we're not just a brokerage. We also own a trucking company in Chicago. And we've got about 55 trucks and 120 trailers and I thought I knew transportation until I bought a trucking company. So holy baptism by fire, for sure.
(11:55):
And, and so when I'm listening to this triangle of who's responsible for the market conditions the way that it is, whether it's the customer, the carrier or the broker, all of us have our own piece in that and understanding, you know, what it is. And I think that there's a lot of companies long term that try to make the most out of every dollar. And I just try to hit singles. I want to have, I want to have customers that do business with us for a long time. I want to have very strong carrier relationships. I want my team members to act with integrity at all times and not bump trucks and do the things that a lot of brokerages should do. And there's no shortcut.
(12:31):
This whole fake it till you make it society and you know, the LinkedIn and all that stuff that. Who are those people? You know, who's the person who. I had this guy. We have a company in Pakistan, also an offshore company, and they called him Pakistani Bob. And so he was running around telling everybody that he was going to be the next leader of Sage. And he was sitting on a private plane with a gold watch. And I was like, dude, you don't know me. I don't have a gold watch. And I don't. Would never be in a private plane. That is not who a good CEO.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Is that, you know, man, I'm right there with you. I love what you said about the saying the singles, right? Because I, I look at my business in my journey like this is truly a marathon, right? Like I, you say what? Whatever you want, like burn the boats or whatever. Like, I am unemployable by anybody else at this point because I, I figured out a love and a passion for building something for myself. And I, I'm. I'm in love with the process, right? Like, I love seeing that slow and steady growth year over year inside of my companies and stuff. And I, and I also love hearing the feedback from our customers, right? Like, hey, you guys do something that we've never experienced before. And you know what?
(13:41):
It hasn't happened at scale yet at the levels that I had originally anticipated at that moment. But my numbers are growing year over year. And if I'm looking at what the next 40 years of my life is, you know, because I'm going to be 40 here is, I'm like, man, I don't have an exit strategy, right? Like retiring to me or doing anything other than What I'm doing right now is just unfathomable besides going and building my happiness and my dream in the future that hopefully my kids and grandkids can come and work in and then all of that stuff. Stuff, Right. Because it's like I've just accepted that this is who it's going to be and I will just do whatever it takes. And I'm not that fake it till you make it.
(14:23):
I would rather tell people the honest truth about the hurdles that I've had to overcome inside of my business and on my journey and have a track record of that as opposed to putting some false narrative out there. Because then all of a sudden you're telling lies about your lies and you don't even know when you're telling the truth. That's just no way to live a life, I don't think anymore.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
Yeah. And I, I mean, we. I believe that if you think about your exit, you're going to run a bunk business. And you know, for me, I have a blessing and a curse that after I started Calvary and sold it and then ran it until 2019 and I transitioned as they were rebranding it, but I got to see how corporate culture can, you know, muffle a thriving brokerage. And that brokerage doesn't exist anymore. And that was like a piece of my side came out of me when that happened because I was cheering for all those people. And you know, when I left, I felt like a big fat hypocrite because of the way that I focus culture. But I got to the point that I could not impact change to the manner that I wanted to.
(15:27):
And so when you get at the later stages of your career, it's not about, you know, so many times we've had, we've seen these big brokerages they sell and the same thing happens over and over again. A few pieces of people make a whole bunch of business. They sell it to a strategic. The strategic comes in, puts their systems, changes everything about the company, really. Compensation models. They try to ratchet it down in order to make the numbers that they said that they were going to make when they bought the company. And then all the goodwill, the people, they go outside. And so for me, I'm not building a company for myself. I'm building a company long term with my teammates who are phenomenal, so that there's something left of me after I'm done. So, you know, I.
(16:12):
I'm facing retirement and it's sure, you know, I got probably five years left it'll be 37 years in this, you know, tragic, difficult business. But it's gotta be something left over. It can't just be money in someone's pocket. And you know, when you talk to private equity guys about that, they think that I'm a banana head. They think that I'm a banana head, that I carry all the risk of the company, but I gave out as much of the company as that is, that we could. But that's what great leaders do. That's. And I'm trying aspiring to be a great leader, but I care more about my team than I do anything else I get.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
You know, I love that. And you know, when you're talking about the money piece there, I just look at it like this now, man. Like I am not financially free or anything like that. Like, I still got a lot on the line. Like my 401k. Is this business working? You know what I mean? But like at the end of the day I just look at it's just money. Like I have a work ethic, right. Like make more money. At the end of the day, if whatever comes my way, I'm more chasing that impact that you're talking about right there. And you know, like we were talking about all the books you got behind you and when you, like I want to talk a little bit more about that culture, right.
(17:23):
That you're describing in there and your team, because you invest in them outside of here's a, here's your training, go figure it out, right? Like you're actively engaged in their long term success, whether it's with you guys or they can take a piece of what they learn with you and go out and go after something else.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Yeah. And that's, I mean, most people who graduate college have never finished a book. And so when you look at how the industry's changed and you know, you look at convoy and Next Trucking and some of these organizations that take hundreds of millions of dollars in order to big build this big thing, what they've forgotten is the importance of leadership. And that in most senses, in most companies, it's dead. And most of us who are running organizations or departments, we tend to spend a lot more of our time on people who aren't hitting their KPIs. And that's the exact wrong thing. I want to spend my time identifying who are the Pareto people who are the top 20% of the company. And I need to invest and pour into them as long as I can.
(18:29):
Until the minute that they get to the point that they're not investing in themselves. And we can see it when you. When you operate a company that's based on culture. And I mean, I've had. It was very difficult to build a culture in Pakistan. I've been there six times. Not many people would make that trip, but I go two to three times a year. And changing the social norms there and how leadership changes from a network, from a hierarchical style, which there's a person on the top who's yelling, to a network style where there's a whole bunch of people involved. I didn't do it alone. I had all these other people that came with me who have read the books. I mean, I would hope that people who worked at Cavalry or work at Sage stand out.
(19:11):
I would hope that my legacy is showing in the people that are in the market and think like me. Because sooner or later, the market's going to twist back to where transparency and vulnerability and people who are, you know, sacrificing for their team, that is what we're going to need as the market changes back. Because robocalling, robo texting, you're not going to build relationships like that. It's about how you build people. And so we're hiring folks who come out of college who have never been yelled at, really, who deal with most of their, you know, breaking up and things that are going on in their personal life based on fake it till you make it and social media and all those kind of things.
(19:52):
And then we're putting them in a seat and saying, hey, on your first day, I want you to pick up a phone, which a lot of them don't use that norm anymore and negotiate with a carrier. And they're like, what are you talking about? In Pakistan, they negotiate everything. It was a lot easier to teach that culture there than it was in the US and so our purpose and the reason that I have people read books is there's four questions that they have to answer. And, you know, my favorite book in the world that's on the list is the Alchemist. And I'm trying to see the way that they see the world, because I'm looking for leaders who are willing to be transparent and vulnerable and communicate to people and understand the value that they had.
(20:33):
And, you know, all of us go through really bad times. And it's when we go through those bad times, you will see somebody's KPIs crash. And in most businesses, what they do is they meet with that individual and they say, hey, you got to get your numbers up and you know, otherwise you're out. They're missing the chance to build long term security and loyalty for that person by saying, hey, what's up? You know, the most important question that I tell my team they can ask every day is how are you? To the people around them? And this industry, man, it is rough, it's a grind. And so back in the day when were all working the desk and for me that was early 93, it was a different world, but it's right back to there.
(21:14):
And yes, you're booking on apps and online and chats and all these other things, but it's going to swing back. It is going to be an environment where we have to pick up the phone and talk to people again and our team members are not ready. So, you know, you look back four years, 20, 21. Most of the people who are on the brokerage desk right now have never operated in a difficult environment. So turnover is 30 to 34% and then the average timeline in transportation is five to seven years. So when you're thinking about that, people who are really good at their job normally get promoted. And so companies tend to promote the wrong people, they promote the wrong ideas.
(21:54):
And as people are filling out book reports for me, I have a timestamp of who they are trying to be and I can tell whether they're, you know, chatgpt and that and didn't put any value or volume in it. And I compare their book reports versus another candidate and we make a selection in who they are and how they've grown through this process. And that's why we grow.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
No, I, I love the, that investment, you know, because, you know, you're right, most people after college, heck, I, I forget the stat off the top of my head, but it's like at least after high school, have never read a book, they've never looked at what other. You know, because like again we're a 32nd society at this point, right? Because that's what most reels on social media are. They're 30 seconds or we're a headline only society. And then you cap, you know, add in chatgpt and other forms of AI and you don't actually research anything anymore, right? Like you don't actually read books that are out there. I mean some of the most profound books that I've read just this year are from Jeb Blount, right?
(22:51):
It's fanatical prospecting and objections and it's Given me a whole different mindset on how I approach my prospects and my customers, how I work through that process. And it actually separated an objection and a rejection from me for the first time in my career. I started looking at. That's actually two separate outcomes from a call. Right. And that's helped us change trajectory inside of our business. And it's like if you're going to navigate through the ups and downs of a lot of this is there's so many great resources by people who have already built and done phenomenal things and you can just take a little piece inside of that and then apply it into your business. Because you're right. Like most people don't even. And like, as a father, I'm just going to bring this up. I.
(23:33):
That's one of my concerns for my son is he's growing up in a digital world now. I'm going to make him go get a job, probably slinging burgers or something like that. He's going to get that human to human interaction. He's going to do that. But there's not a lot of people out there that are taking that approach, Bob, and investing in their staffs, at least to the best of my knowledge. And the people that I know, I don't know of anybody else inside of the transportation industry that is taking the approach that you guys are at sage investing in their people at that level.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Yeah, I, I don't either. And I did it at Calvary and we had people over 8, 000 book reports were submitted. And you know, I'm. I'm here and I don't have these books behind me because I want people to think that I'm intelligent or any. I did the work. I read those darn books and I've had meetings where I brought. Brought in several hundred books and put them on the table to try to get people to understand the point that, you know, I have to work at my craft. And by reading every single day, it causes me to remember who I am wanting to be. And every time you read a book, there's something, even if it's a bad book, there's a spark that says, hey, maybe I need to think about it this way.
(24:45):
And I'm reading this book, we're getting ready to have a group of people who are growing to be VPs. And there's this book called Mind of the Leader. And the whole book is about personhood, which you wouldn't think that you would have to teach people about personhood anymore, but that's where the money lies. And you know, long term, the people who make the most money in the world are going to be phenomenal leaders.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I agree with that. And you know, you'd mentioned that you have a global footprint inside of your business, so I'm assuming technology, it has to play a role inside of that. So how do you keep everybody on the same page? Right? You got your trucking company, you have your brokerage, you have your team in Pakistan. How do you keep everybody aligned like that? And how has technology played a role inside of that?
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Well, being an early stage company and operating on your own cash flow and only ever taken $5 million to build a $160 million company, technology is really difficult. And so I run a company that I am reinvesting all of the money back into the organization. I'm spending about two and a half million DOllars every year on tech. It's. So when I sit down with people, if they're talking to me about wanting to invest or a private equity company or anything like that, you know, you go to the EBITDA line and the EBITDA lies in Goodwill. It's in, it's in my people, it's in ip. And so tech is huge. And we've had to go backwards in technology, change platforms because we're developing all the things that help my teammates better, faster, stronger. So technology, in my view, it's a robo suit.
(26:22):
It makes people more effective, it does not remove the person. And I think that companies who have tried to do that have missed out. And you know, when Convoy came out and said we're going to revolutionize the industry, I don't think that they knew that there was pioneers from Robinson and Back Haulers and all these different companies that, who did a lot of the simple stuff. And so it's hard. You know, in our trucking company, we've tried to make sure that it's sitting on the outside because we want it to have its own culture and individuality. We're very tight with sage PK. We got 130 people there. And so how you group those folks and how you create a culture that people can communicate readily.
(27:04):
And in Pakistan, there's different challenges than there are in the US but at the end of the day, we're all people. And the people in Pakistan have the same gear, they have the same KPIs, there's no offset. We don't care where you work, we just care that you're a part of our team. Long term and that you're doing the things that we expect.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
How do you choose what technology to invest in at this stage in your business? What are some of those things? Because there's a lot of stuff out there at any given moment just coming out. I can only imagine what you see or your company sees on a day to day from, you know, from a tech standpoint and opportunities. What, what are some of those intangibles that you think that are like this is going to be here, this is where you should invest in.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Well, as soon as we started the company I spent you know like $500,000 on a TMS aggregator. So it was money that was really difficult. Anything, anything around rating and proprietary information. New brokerages just need to thrive on that. That. So yes, there's a lot of systems that are coming out and everyone thinks that an API connection is technology. That's not it. Because you have to figure out what your processes are and then how you develop that role. So we operate differently than other companies and every we operate in module based technology growth. So I look at a new platform and I say that platform needs to do five things. It doesn't need to do 500 things. That's where people get off, just do five things. What does an account executive need? What does a carrier sales rep need? What does a salesperson need?
(28:37):
And when you identify that then you thrive. And we're also in an environment where customers are a lot smarter, carriers are a lot smarter, we're all smarter and have a lot of it is a week prior of information and rating and so those who can dial in on rates and how the market fluctuates day to day, those are the people that are going to win. It's not just girth and getting a whole bunch of calls out there and trying to whittle it down. It's with customers and carriers. And I think that's where we are. None of us are doing anything that's crazy. It's just how are we building our mousetraps? That's different. And there's so many good people in transportation.
(30:00):
There's so many strong young people like yourself who are growing, who are giving it a good word and we just need to be nice to each other now.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
I appreciate that and I agree at the end of the day, man, there's nothing I'm doing is proprietary. And I try my best to put as many best practices out there as possible for people to follow and what I've learned out there in my career. But that will be it for today, Ladies and gentlemen, as always, if you got value in what you heard, subscribe to the show. And if you're feeling really ambitious after this one, which you should be, rank the show on itunes and Spotify, because if you saw value, chances are your network's going to see value as well. I appreciate you guys. I love you guys, and we'll be talking to you soon.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Came back with a bank window down? Yelling now? Money, anything? Hey, oh? Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal? When I'm get to the back? Hey? Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal? When the lane moves fast? Hey, hey? Let them all cross? If they hate them? Let them hate to make a bigger ball?
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Hey.
Came back with a bank window down yelling now money anything hey oh Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when I'm get to the back hey Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when the lane moving fast hey Let them all cross if they hate then let them hate them Make a bigger ball.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
What is up ladies and gentlemen? We are back, we are live. It is Freight Coach Podcast. My name is Chris Jolly and I am your host. And you guys, we're just going to really jump right in. I got a very special guest for you guys here today. It's not very often that you get to sit down with a multi time founder and then somebody who's been in the industry almost as long as I've been alive. Not trying to date him, but he's been in the industry for over 30 years. I'm pushing 40 though, so I guess I can have a little bit of credibility at that point. But you know, there's a lot of practices out there that are changing in the industry and then there's some that are never going to change. Right.
(00:59):
And those fundamentals and you know, and then also the grit, the determination and the long term thinking that you need to bring to the table out there. So I have the founder of Stage Freight, Mr. Bob King on the show this morning. Bob, thank you so much for taking the time to join me.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Thanks for having me here.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
You know, and like were talking last week, I, I was like, I don't even know where to start. There's so many things I want to ask when it comes down to it. But you know, I guess the first thing is, you know, what made you want to become an entrepreneur, Bob? Like what was that thing? Was there like a moment or was it kind of a catalyst of a bunch of things? You're like, I got to go out and do this on my own because I think I can do it better.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Well, I think it was my start at C.H. Robinson and back in the day before they went public, it was just such an amazing organization and each different branch was its own business basically. And you were out there fighting for freight, but fighting against each other. And you know, I don't think that Robinson gets the kudos that it should from when you look at from 2005 basically and below that, their stock was traded at incredible levels. The people who are running that organization, Greg Govind, Sid Verdorn, Barry Butsoe, you know, Mark Walker, Jim Best, I have some really amazing people on my board that were for Robinson. It, it was a different culture.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
What do you think that there's, you know, speaking of big business and you know, when you're out there trying to build a big. Is. Is there a point where it gets too big, where you feel like the, those tangible things that kind of got you up and running, you know, building up those customer loyalty, the employee loyalty. Do you think that there's companies that it reaches a point where it loses that?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
Yeah, I think, you know, we're all building a business to try to get away from a bureaucracy, only to become a bureaucracy. And that's really what the fight is and how your leadership team is and how you communicate and the way that you value people or not. And I think that's the challenge. The footer or the foundation of Robinson is probably not there anymore with all the different changes in leadership. But I fight every day. My job is to make sure that my culture is maintained and that's, you know, that's the number one thing. Our team members are the number one thing.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
How, how have you really had that be your focal point when you went out there and you started Sage Freight? You know, like, I want to go back to the early days there of, you know, back when you guys decided to go out and go on this venture. What was some of those early challenges that, you know, you had that you faced right away were kind of shaped how you were going to establish your culture today?
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Well, I think it, I mean, it comes from when I started cavalry logistics in 05 and I got to, you know, I sold it in 10 and got to see how corporate America can change an organization. And when we started SAGE in 2021 of October, we had over 30 people come from Cavalry. And so that footing that yeast that was there, that incubator, I mean, they knew how we operated. A lot of those people were driving the culture there and that entrepreneurial spirit, but also, you know, grinding and knowing that this business is really tough.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
In the beginning, talking about the beginning there, what were some of those early challenges? Because, you know, I like, I see a lot of this stuff, Bob, on social media where it's just so easy, right? Like you and I were of talking about this when we had, you know, originally chatted like, I, as somebody who, you know, I've only been self employed for five years now, right. Like, the only thing I'm very, very confident in is how little I know at this point when it comes to like building A business long term and really what to expect out there. But you know, you scroll on social media for five seconds and you instantly feel behind because clearly everybody's got to figure it out. Everybody's making a million plus dollars a year. They all have yachts and everything else out there.
(05:03):
But, you know, when we had originally chatted, you know, you were talking about like your sole focus when you went out and started Sage. So like what was that when you're going out there and really trying to get your business off the ground? What were some of those early hurdles?
Speaker 3 (05:19):
The biggest thing was trust. And we had to have the carrier community trust us, we had to have the banking community trust us, and then also customers. I mean, my first six months I was calling different funding organizations, trying to make sure that they understood who were and that our team came from Calvary and all the success we had there and sending them my business plans. I mean, RTs and giants like that you need to have on your side in order to move the business forward. And, you know, capital constraints are always difficult in a bureaucratic society or world. And when we operate and I'm using somebody else's money, I've got to deal with the politics. If I'm starting my own business, I got to deal with the, you know, the fact that I'm on the line for $20 million personal guarantees.
(06:09):
Those things are scary and they change the way that you approach business. And, you know, I can tell you this is only my second podcast or interview, and so I do a terrible job of communicating what Sage is about and how our company is founded. And that sometimes can be a detriment. But also, you know, there's so many conferences in these days that. So many distractions. And, you know, There are some CEOs who live at conferences and their businesses suffer because of it. And I don't go to a lot of conferences. I don't do a lot of this. It hurts when I'm in the banking community, but it sets the foundation that I'm the hardest working type of individual in our company. And I do all I can to make sure that I'm driving value every day.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
You know, Bob, that was one of the things that stuck out to me the most when we had chatted, right. Was your dedication to your business. And that's one thing that I'm really realizing as my brokerage grows and you know, the media company that I have grows is I have to be so mindful of my time. Like my time is everything. And it has to be 90 of my time has to be on revenue producing activities at that, this stage inside of my business. Right. Because like I had no customers in either of my companies that I've started. Right. I had zero revenue guarantee. I had zero anything. I've had to literally build everything up day one, $1.
(07:32):
And I, I see that out there where it's like, I can't go to all of these shows, I can't do a bunch of these things because, like, I have to be there when that opportunity falls into my lap. As you know, when you start your business and your brokerage, like getting those customers and that, you know, getting them as one thing, but then growing with them is an entire different ball game. And you have to be present in that. And I think, you know, like you said, you know, have $20 million of personal guarantees. I don't think people actually understand what a personal guarantee is on a loan. Right. That means Bob King is liable to pay back $20 million himself, not the business, if.
(08:11):
And this is if anything goes wrong, which when not advocating for, but that's a personal guarantee and that's a different level of stress and focus that most people never, ever will understand. So like, when I hear you say, like, you don't join podcasts, you don't go to these conferences because you have to be where your investment is. And when you are the leader of that organization, that makes complete and perfect sense.
Speaker 3 (08:34):
Yeah. And it's not just, I mean, it's not just my money. I mean, we started Sage and made money in 10 weeks. And so were, again, were very blessed with the team members that we have. But then we also had some great investors early on, Jim Best and Mark Walker. And then there's another company, Jordan Partners, that have invested in us and we would have made the top 100 brokerages in our first three years of business. You know, we'll do probably 175 million. And so we're focused on the right things. But the biggest thing that I always have to focus on is no and I think that, you know, owning your own business or being part owner in a business, it sounds sexy until you're grinding 80 hours a week. And that's what this has been.
(09:19):
I mean, I started this a year before we actually opened up, getting all my legal documents and logos, branding, all of that stuff. I also spent a lot of time calling banks that I wanted to deal with. Like we use wintrust. They're an incredible partner. I called them before I was Able to. To be on their line, telling them that I was coming. You know, I pointed to the Fen. Same thing with Triumph Pay. I did the same thing. I told them, and I was like, you're going to want our business. You're going to want our business. And they're all like, we'll see, we'll see. And that same thing happens with private equity companies or family offices or, you know, VCs. I mean, you gotta. It is a grind, man.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
How important is it in those moments where, you know, I know my answer to this one, but I'd love to hear your response on the importance of being your own personal cheerleader. Because there's those moments where you know, you don't know, man. You don't know if it's all going to work out. You can sit here and boast and say, oh, everything's going to be great. Everything's going to be fine. We're going to do this, we're going to do that. But inevitably, those moments of doubt start to creep in. Like, wait, are we going to be okay? Like, is, am I going to have a house? You know, like, at least I've been faced with that, and I'm open about that. So how do you really attack those moments?
Speaker 3 (10:34):
I just work harder. And those. That is real. And every, you know, every day when I'm doing my job, you know, am I a phony or not? Am I really who I say I am? And. But the. The key is that I can't ever let my team see me in a time that I'm concerned like that. I mean, I have to be the biggest cheerleader. And, you know, I only own 24% of Sage, and so I own a lot less. I carry a huge risk, but we pushed as much of the stock out to our partners in the people. And I say partners, it means the people who are working at SAGE with me that, you know, when. When Robinson went public, 100 people became millionaires overnight.
(11:16):
And that was the most powerful thing that made me want to be an entrepreneur even more and how they reacted and the ownership that they had. And I'm trying to do the same thing here in just a different manner and a different time. But, yeah, it is running. Look at how many brokerages have gone out of business in the last year and a half and how difficult this environment has been. And we're not just a brokerage. We also own a trucking company in Chicago. And we've got about 55 trucks and 120 trailers and I thought I knew transportation until I bought a trucking company. So holy baptism by fire, for sure.
(11:55):
And, and so when I'm listening to this triangle of who's responsible for the market conditions the way that it is, whether it's the customer, the carrier or the broker, all of us have our own piece in that and understanding, you know, what it is. And I think that there's a lot of companies long term that try to make the most out of every dollar. And I just try to hit singles. I want to have, I want to have customers that do business with us for a long time. I want to have very strong carrier relationships. I want my team members to act with integrity at all times and not bump trucks and do the things that a lot of brokerages should do. And there's no shortcut.
(12:31):
This whole fake it till you make it society and you know, the LinkedIn and all that stuff that. Who are those people? You know, who's the person who. I had this guy. We have a company in Pakistan, also an offshore company, and they called him Pakistani Bob. And so he was running around telling everybody that he was going to be the next leader of Sage. And he was sitting on a private plane with a gold watch. And I was like, dude, you don't know me. I don't have a gold watch. And I don't. Would never be in a private plane. That is not who a good CEO.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Is that, you know, man, I'm right there with you. I love what you said about the saying the singles, right? Because I, I look at my business in my journey like this is truly a marathon, right? Like I, you say what? Whatever you want, like burn the boats or whatever. Like, I am unemployable by anybody else at this point because I, I figured out a love and a passion for building something for myself. And I, I'm. I'm in love with the process, right? Like, I love seeing that slow and steady growth year over year inside of my companies and stuff. And I, and I also love hearing the feedback from our customers, right? Like, hey, you guys do something that we've never experienced before. And you know what?
(13:41):
It hasn't happened at scale yet at the levels that I had originally anticipated at that moment. But my numbers are growing year over year. And if I'm looking at what the next 40 years of my life is, you know, because I'm going to be 40 here is, I'm like, man, I don't have an exit strategy, right? Like retiring to me or doing anything other than What I'm doing right now is just unfathomable besides going and building my happiness and my dream in the future that hopefully my kids and grandkids can come and work in and then all of that stuff. Stuff, Right. Because it's like I've just accepted that this is who it's going to be and I will just do whatever it takes. And I'm not that fake it till you make it.
(14:23):
I would rather tell people the honest truth about the hurdles that I've had to overcome inside of my business and on my journey and have a track record of that as opposed to putting some false narrative out there. Because then all of a sudden you're telling lies about your lies and you don't even know when you're telling the truth. That's just no way to live a life, I don't think anymore.
Speaker 3 (14:45):
Yeah. And I, I mean, we. I believe that if you think about your exit, you're going to run a bunk business. And you know, for me, I have a blessing and a curse that after I started Calvary and sold it and then ran it until 2019 and I transitioned as they were rebranding it, but I got to see how corporate culture can, you know, muffle a thriving brokerage. And that brokerage doesn't exist anymore. And that was like a piece of my side came out of me when that happened because I was cheering for all those people. And you know, when I left, I felt like a big fat hypocrite because of the way that I focus culture. But I got to the point that I could not impact change to the manner that I wanted to.
(15:27):
And so when you get at the later stages of your career, it's not about, you know, so many times we've had, we've seen these big brokerages they sell and the same thing happens over and over again. A few pieces of people make a whole bunch of business. They sell it to a strategic. The strategic comes in, puts their systems, changes everything about the company, really. Compensation models. They try to ratchet it down in order to make the numbers that they said that they were going to make when they bought the company. And then all the goodwill, the people, they go outside. And so for me, I'm not building a company for myself. I'm building a company long term with my teammates who are phenomenal, so that there's something left of me after I'm done. So, you know, I.
(16:12):
I'm facing retirement and it's sure, you know, I got probably five years left it'll be 37 years in this, you know, tragic, difficult business. But it's gotta be something left over. It can't just be money in someone's pocket. And you know, when you talk to private equity guys about that, they think that I'm a banana head. They think that I'm a banana head, that I carry all the risk of the company, but I gave out as much of the company as that is, that we could. But that's what great leaders do. That's. And I'm trying aspiring to be a great leader, but I care more about my team than I do anything else I get.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
You know, I love that. And you know, when you're talking about the money piece there, I just look at it like this now, man. Like I am not financially free or anything like that. Like, I still got a lot on the line. Like my 401k. Is this business working? You know what I mean? But like at the end of the day I just look at it's just money. Like I have a work ethic, right. Like make more money. At the end of the day, if whatever comes my way, I'm more chasing that impact that you're talking about right there. And you know, like we were talking about all the books you got behind you and when you, like I want to talk a little bit more about that culture, right.
(17:23):
That you're describing in there and your team, because you invest in them outside of here's a, here's your training, go figure it out, right? Like you're actively engaged in their long term success, whether it's with you guys or they can take a piece of what they learn with you and go out and go after something else.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Yeah. And that's, I mean, most people who graduate college have never finished a book. And so when you look at how the industry's changed and you know, you look at convoy and Next Trucking and some of these organizations that take hundreds of millions of dollars in order to big build this big thing, what they've forgotten is the importance of leadership. And that in most senses, in most companies, it's dead. And most of us who are running organizations or departments, we tend to spend a lot more of our time on people who aren't hitting their KPIs. And that's the exact wrong thing. I want to spend my time identifying who are the Pareto people who are the top 20% of the company. And I need to invest and pour into them as long as I can.
(18:29):
Until the minute that they get to the point that they're not investing in themselves. And we can see it when you. When you operate a company that's based on culture. And I mean, I've had. It was very difficult to build a culture in Pakistan. I've been there six times. Not many people would make that trip, but I go two to three times a year. And changing the social norms there and how leadership changes from a network, from a hierarchical style, which there's a person on the top who's yelling, to a network style where there's a whole bunch of people involved. I didn't do it alone. I had all these other people that came with me who have read the books. I mean, I would hope that people who worked at Cavalry or work at Sage stand out.
(19:11):
I would hope that my legacy is showing in the people that are in the market and think like me. Because sooner or later, the market's going to twist back to where transparency and vulnerability and people who are, you know, sacrificing for their team, that is what we're going to need as the market changes back. Because robocalling, robo texting, you're not going to build relationships like that. It's about how you build people. And so we're hiring folks who come out of college who have never been yelled at, really, who deal with most of their, you know, breaking up and things that are going on in their personal life based on fake it till you make it and social media and all those kind of things.
(19:52):
And then we're putting them in a seat and saying, hey, on your first day, I want you to pick up a phone, which a lot of them don't use that norm anymore and negotiate with a carrier. And they're like, what are you talking about? In Pakistan, they negotiate everything. It was a lot easier to teach that culture there than it was in the US and so our purpose and the reason that I have people read books is there's four questions that they have to answer. And, you know, my favorite book in the world that's on the list is the Alchemist. And I'm trying to see the way that they see the world, because I'm looking for leaders who are willing to be transparent and vulnerable and communicate to people and understand the value that they had.
(20:33):
And, you know, all of us go through really bad times. And it's when we go through those bad times, you will see somebody's KPIs crash. And in most businesses, what they do is they meet with that individual and they say, hey, you got to get your numbers up and you know, otherwise you're out. They're missing the chance to build long term security and loyalty for that person by saying, hey, what's up? You know, the most important question that I tell my team they can ask every day is how are you? To the people around them? And this industry, man, it is rough, it's a grind. And so back in the day when were all working the desk and for me that was early 93, it was a different world, but it's right back to there.
(21:14):
And yes, you're booking on apps and online and chats and all these other things, but it's going to swing back. It is going to be an environment where we have to pick up the phone and talk to people again and our team members are not ready. So, you know, you look back four years, 20, 21. Most of the people who are on the brokerage desk right now have never operated in a difficult environment. So turnover is 30 to 34% and then the average timeline in transportation is five to seven years. So when you're thinking about that, people who are really good at their job normally get promoted. And so companies tend to promote the wrong people, they promote the wrong ideas.
(21:54):
And as people are filling out book reports for me, I have a timestamp of who they are trying to be and I can tell whether they're, you know, chatgpt and that and didn't put any value or volume in it. And I compare their book reports versus another candidate and we make a selection in who they are and how they've grown through this process. And that's why we grow.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
No, I, I love the, that investment, you know, because, you know, you're right, most people after college, heck, I, I forget the stat off the top of my head, but it's like at least after high school, have never read a book, they've never looked at what other. You know, because like again we're a 32nd society at this point, right? Because that's what most reels on social media are. They're 30 seconds or we're a headline only society. And then you cap, you know, add in chatgpt and other forms of AI and you don't actually research anything anymore, right? Like you don't actually read books that are out there. I mean some of the most profound books that I've read just this year are from Jeb Blount, right?
(22:51):
It's fanatical prospecting and objections and it's Given me a whole different mindset on how I approach my prospects and my customers, how I work through that process. And it actually separated an objection and a rejection from me for the first time in my career. I started looking at. That's actually two separate outcomes from a call. Right. And that's helped us change trajectory inside of our business. And it's like if you're going to navigate through the ups and downs of a lot of this is there's so many great resources by people who have already built and done phenomenal things and you can just take a little piece inside of that and then apply it into your business. Because you're right. Like most people don't even. And like, as a father, I'm just going to bring this up. I.
(23:33):
That's one of my concerns for my son is he's growing up in a digital world now. I'm going to make him go get a job, probably slinging burgers or something like that. He's going to get that human to human interaction. He's going to do that. But there's not a lot of people out there that are taking that approach, Bob, and investing in their staffs, at least to the best of my knowledge. And the people that I know, I don't know of anybody else inside of the transportation industry that is taking the approach that you guys are at sage investing in their people at that level.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Yeah, I, I don't either. And I did it at Calvary and we had people over 8, 000 book reports were submitted. And you know, I'm. I'm here and I don't have these books behind me because I want people to think that I'm intelligent or any. I did the work. I read those darn books and I've had meetings where I brought. Brought in several hundred books and put them on the table to try to get people to understand the point that, you know, I have to work at my craft. And by reading every single day, it causes me to remember who I am wanting to be. And every time you read a book, there's something, even if it's a bad book, there's a spark that says, hey, maybe I need to think about it this way.
(24:45):
And I'm reading this book, we're getting ready to have a group of people who are growing to be VPs. And there's this book called Mind of the Leader. And the whole book is about personhood, which you wouldn't think that you would have to teach people about personhood anymore, but that's where the money lies. And you know, long term, the people who make the most money in the world are going to be phenomenal leaders.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I agree with that. And you know, you'd mentioned that you have a global footprint inside of your business, so I'm assuming technology, it has to play a role inside of that. So how do you keep everybody on the same page? Right? You got your trucking company, you have your brokerage, you have your team in Pakistan. How do you keep everybody aligned like that? And how has technology played a role inside of that?
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Well, being an early stage company and operating on your own cash flow and only ever taken $5 million to build a $160 million company, technology is really difficult. And so I run a company that I am reinvesting all of the money back into the organization. I'm spending about two and a half million DOllars every year on tech. It's. So when I sit down with people, if they're talking to me about wanting to invest or a private equity company or anything like that, you know, you go to the EBITDA line and the EBITDA lies in Goodwill. It's in, it's in my people, it's in ip. And so tech is huge. And we've had to go backwards in technology, change platforms because we're developing all the things that help my teammates better, faster, stronger. So technology, in my view, it's a robo suit.
(26:22):
It makes people more effective, it does not remove the person. And I think that companies who have tried to do that have missed out. And you know, when Convoy came out and said we're going to revolutionize the industry, I don't think that they knew that there was pioneers from Robinson and Back Haulers and all these different companies that, who did a lot of the simple stuff. And so it's hard. You know, in our trucking company, we've tried to make sure that it's sitting on the outside because we want it to have its own culture and individuality. We're very tight with sage PK. We got 130 people there. And so how you group those folks and how you create a culture that people can communicate readily.
(27:04):
And in Pakistan, there's different challenges than there are in the US but at the end of the day, we're all people. And the people in Pakistan have the same gear, they have the same KPIs, there's no offset. We don't care where you work, we just care that you're a part of our team. Long term and that you're doing the things that we expect.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
How do you choose what technology to invest in at this stage in your business? What are some of those things? Because there's a lot of stuff out there at any given moment just coming out. I can only imagine what you see or your company sees on a day to day from, you know, from a tech standpoint and opportunities. What, what are some of those intangibles that you think that are like this is going to be here, this is where you should invest in.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Well, as soon as we started the company I spent you know like $500,000 on a TMS aggregator. So it was money that was really difficult. Anything, anything around rating and proprietary information. New brokerages just need to thrive on that. That. So yes, there's a lot of systems that are coming out and everyone thinks that an API connection is technology. That's not it. Because you have to figure out what your processes are and then how you develop that role. So we operate differently than other companies and every we operate in module based technology growth. So I look at a new platform and I say that platform needs to do five things. It doesn't need to do 500 things. That's where people get off, just do five things. What does an account executive need? What does a carrier sales rep need? What does a salesperson need?
(28:37):
And when you identify that then you thrive. And we're also in an environment where customers are a lot smarter, carriers are a lot smarter, we're all smarter and have a lot of it is a week prior of information and rating and so those who can dial in on rates and how the market fluctuates day to day, those are the people that are going to win. It's not just girth and getting a whole bunch of calls out there and trying to whittle it down. It's with customers and carriers. And I think that's where we are. None of us are doing anything that's crazy. It's just how are we building our mousetraps? That's different. And there's so many good people in transportation.
(30:00):
There's so many strong young people like yourself who are growing, who are giving it a good word and we just need to be nice to each other now.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
I appreciate that and I agree at the end of the day, man, there's nothing I'm doing is proprietary. And I try my best to put as many best practices out there as possible for people to follow and what I've learned out there in my career. But that will be it for today, Ladies and gentlemen, as always, if you got value in what you heard, subscribe to the show. And if you're feeling really ambitious after this one, which you should be, rank the show on itunes and Spotify, because if you saw value, chances are your network's going to see value as well. I appreciate you guys. I love you guys, and we'll be talking to you soon.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Came back with a bank window down? Yelling now? Money, anything? Hey, oh? Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal? When I'm get to the back? Hey? Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal? When the lane moves fast? Hey, hey? Let them all cross? If they hate them? Let them hate to make a bigger ball?
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Hey.
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