December 16, 2025 • 42 mins
In a world that often rewards silence over truth, this conversation invites us into the radical possibility that courage can be compassionate and compassion can be ferocious. Sandra Bargman joins Amy to explore how choosing authenticity over approval transforms the way we lead, speak up and refuse the quiet self-betrayal that so many of us have normalized. Together they peel back the layers of social conditioning, especially for women and leaders, and show how the simple act of pausing, breathing and telling the truth becomes a liberating spiritual practice. This episode reminds us that real compassion begins with ourselves and that the courage to be disliked is sometimes the most loving choice we can make.
Key Takeaways:
- The Paradox of Ferocious Compassion - Learn how strength and tenderness can coexist and why true compassion sometimes requires uncomfortable honesty.
- Why Self-Betrayal Happens in Leadership - See how people pleasing, approval seeking and silence accumulate and undermine your integrity and confidence.
- The Courage to Be Disliked - Discover why speaking your truth is an act of self respect and how developing this muscle changes every room you walk into.
- Reclaiming Your Voice in Moments That Catch You Off Guard - Find approaches for pausing, breathing and responding instead of freezing, laughing it off or internalizing harm.
- Confrontation as Presence, Not Conflict - Understand how facing a moment directly, without attack or avoidance, becomes a deep expression of integrity.
- Practicing Boundaries With Compassion - Explore ways to assess your safety, values and intentions so you can decide when to stay, when to speak and when to walk away.
About the Guest:
Sandra Bargman helps leaders unlock truthful presence with a blend of vocal mastery, storytelling skill, and deep emotional intelligence. Drawing from decades as an actor, singer, director, and life counselor, she teaches people to express themselves with clarity, authenticity, and intention. Her holistic B.I.G. Approach brings together breath and body work, vocal strength, diction, silence, mindfulness, and story craft, giving clients the tools to communicate with confidence and purpose. Whether she’s coaching one-on-one or leading groups, Sandra guides people of all ages and professions to access their inner truth, sharpen their message, and step into bolder, more grounded communication.
https://www.sandrabargman.com/podcast
About Amy:
Amy Lynn Durham, known by her clients as the Corporate Mystic, is the founder of the Executive Coaching Firm, Create Magic At Work®, where they help leaders build workplaces rooted in creativity, collaboration, and fulfillment. A former corporate executive turned Executive Coach, Amy blends practical leadership strategies with spiritual intelligence to unlock human potential at work.
She’s a certified Executive Coach through UC Berkeley & the International Coaching Federation (ICF) In addition, Amy holds coaching certifications in Spiritual Intelligence (SQ21), the Edgewalker Profile, and the Archetypes of Change . In addition to being the host of the Create Magic At Work® podcast, Amy is the author of Create Magic At Work®, Creating Career Magic: A Daily Prompt Journal and the founder of Magic Thread Media™. Through her work, she inspires intentional leadership for thriving workplaces and lives where “magic” becomes reality.
Connect with Amy:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sandra Bargman (00:00):
Originating from the Latin compati Compassion means to see the suffering of others and take action to stop it. While this is a noble pursuit, it leaves much room for interpretation. The choosing and taking of actions can also be filtered through ego control and judgment. My highest spiritual understanding of compassion is this allow everyone without judgment or hatred to make their own choices on their own path. Think about the profound and life altering generosity in that ferocious compassion requires that I find the courage to speak my truth, to find the courage to be disliked, to find the courage to turn and face confrontation. Ferocious compassion guides me to choose authenticity over approval. Ferocious compassion allows me to make my decisions for my own highest good and not for anyone else's comfort. It allows me the freedom to assert myself, to be vulnerable, to express, not suppress my true emotions and intentions, for my own heart to stay open. I can no longer pretend to make nice and try to understand the numerous assaults to my intelligence and my integrity. I can no longer befriend people who vote against my reproductive or equity rights. I can no longer tolerate cruelty, anti intelligence and belligerent racism.
Amy Lynn Durham (01:51):
Hey, it's Amy Welcome to Create Magic at Work, where we cast visions for a future of work, where business decisions ripple outward to our teams, our communities, the planet and humanity as a whole. If you're ready to edge, walk instead of sleep, walk through your leadership, you're in the right place. So let's start making magic at work.
(02:12):
And that my friends, was my dear friend, Sandra bargeman. If you have not heard her on the create magic at work podcast before we have had many discussions around women and anger the reluctant leader,and today, Sandra is joining us to talk about ferocious compassion, a new thought concept that she has, and it's also from the book Love Notes, 2.0 a chapter she has contributed to that book. Let me give you a little bit about Sandra's background before we get into a conversation. Sandra is masterful at teaching the vocal techniques and storytelling skills that empower business leaders to create impactful communication and authentic presence. Her dual career as a professional actor, singer, director and as a life counselor made for a natural training ground for her to become an impactful communication and presence teacher and coach, with a BFA in drama from Carnegie Mellon and a 30 plus year professional career that took her around the world, both on stage and behind the scenes, behind the mic and on camera, Sandra understands firsthand what it takes to tell a story in a powerful and engaging way. And by the way, Sandra is also on the create magic at work coaching team. She is the voice and presence coach on the team, and I am so honored to have her as part of our team, and to be here today to dive into ferocious compassion. I cannot wait to talk about it, because I have so many questions, and we're always in spicy conversations together, so hopefully everybody listening is just kind of ready to listen. Approach things from an open mind. You know, we're recording this conversation in the beginning of towards the beginning of December, and we're going into the final stretch of the holiday season we've passed Thanksgiving here in the US. So this is going to be a cool conversation, talking about ferocious compassion. And the thing I keep telling myself that I learned from your writing, the courage to be disliked, the courage to be disliked, that is something that
(04:40):
rings through me throughout the day. It has just really stuck with me. How do I have the courage to be disliked? So Sandra, welcome back to create magic at work, and thank you for being here.
Sandra Bargman (04:55):
Oh, Hello Amy, and Hello listeners. Thank you so much for having me. Back. It's great to be here.
Amy Lynn Durham (05:01):
Thank you for being this bold, courageous individual, to bring these spicy topics to the air, to get us thinking my ferocious compassion. Tell us, I know you read from your book, but tell us what that mean. What does that mean to you? How do we wrap our minds around how we can be ferociously compassionate?
Sandra Bargman (05:27):
Well, there's so many ways I knew, of course, you were going to ask that, what is ferocious compassion? But I'll tell you, like all things, you know, this was a phrase that emerged out of a conversation. It emerged when I was reflecting on the conversation and these words, ferocious compassion together seemed so wonderfully paradoxical, and which, of course, is the edge of every day. It's how I walk through the world. The complexity of that I loved but it, and in choosing to write about it, I really had to sit with it and really flesh it out for myself, first and foremost, and then in writing format that I could share with others, and I think succinctly, I just, of course read what I think it is. But I think for me, the idea of, you know, fierce compassion is out there. Now, trust me, I googled it the second it arose. Is ferocious compassion out there. But I loved the the idea of ferocious as being very animalistic, and it really brought me to this idea of the wild woman. And you know, my great love for Clarissa Pinkola Estes and the reclamation of this wild woman that all you know, this notion that women have been in a patriarchal society, have been, you know, dumbed down, and we have to behave, be ladylike or be quiet or make nice or make peace and be softer, and that our our passion is confused with with being an angry, aggressive woman. And I just refuse, at this point in my life, to embrace that, and I want to get back to that fully expressing who I am with authentically, not for approval. And that's where this embrace of being disliked. And, you know, I think for women, it's really difficult, we are socialized to want to be liked, and that if I'm liked, I belong. Meanwhile, I'm I'm I'm self betraying myself. And this self betrayal is another part of ferocious compassion. I have to have compassion for myself. First and foremost, I cannot betray myself to make other people comfortable. And I think, in a nutshell, this this
(07:58):
decentering of making nice, I'm always going to be kind. I'm always going to meet people where they are. As I said, the highest version of compassion is to allow people to make the decisions forthemselves that are in their highest interest. I might disagree with them, but Have at it, but I then will meet you where you are, and I will have I will make a decision about what is right for me, and I will not work to make nice with you, to make you comfortable with decisions that that go against something that That is helpful and supportive of me.
Amy Lynn Durham (08:42):
Yeah, we think that's a long answer. No, it's good. I could listen to you talk forever in the skills of spiritual intelligence, which we talk about a lot on create magic. Your work skill 19, making wise and compassionate decisions. It's faith neutral for leaders in the workplace. And one of the common things that arise in when someone takes the assessment and the recommends come out is exactly what you just said, that consider that making wise and compassionate decisions involves not necessarily knowing the right way for everyone, and allowing people to have their own journey. And maybe the mistake that they're that you think they're making might be the best mistake they ever made for their path or for their journey. So I think about that when you share that, the other piece that I love, I look at it all the time. It's a sentence from your chapter in love notes 2.0 it says, ferocious compassion requires that I find the courage to speak my truth, to find the courage to be disliked, to find the courage to turn and face. Confrontation, ferocious compassion guides me to choose authenticity over approval. Where is that line between holding space for someone that has conflicting viewpoints versus finding the courage to be disliked or turning and facing confrontation, because I think of different situations we're in. And sometimes I will hold space in moments that I did feel like I was doing some self betrayal, and then in other moments, I feel like, No, this is a real generative conversation. I don't know. I think it's
Sandra Bargman (10:41):
such a it's yeah, it's such a learning curve, particularly for women again. First of all, I want to just be present to the word confrontation, because I think that everyone is, is that that's a real trigger for people, because they think of confrontation as as being argumentative, or in some sort of battle, when, in fact, it means to just simply turn and face, to confront, to be realistic about what is to be present, to what is happening right at the moment, and to not, you know, take the High Road maybe, and not share your actual feelings about something. You know, taking the high road is different things. Sometimes people just really don't care and want to go away. But in the fear of confrontation, the taking the high road can sometimes lead to self betrayal, but the sense of embrace of the word confrontation as Listen, this is my this is how I feel, and I have the self respect for my feelings without I don't need to make you wrong. I don't need to get in an argument. I don't have to, you know, again, compassion, you get to believe what you want, but I get to believe what I want, too, and does if we're having a if I feel respect back in this give and take of understanding that we're in disagreement, then I can stay in conversation. If I do not feel that, then no, I will not. I will leave the conversation. I will say no, I will not welcome someone in, and I will be very clear about or I will call someone out on something. And I have learned that I need to be really clear with that, and I have to have the courage to speak up. You know, that's another thing we don't, particularly women, but I know, you know, we all do it if somebody's making some sort of sarcastic or racist or, you know, some sort of comment, and I'm privy to it, and I don't say something, I feel, really, I've self betrayed, and I've betrayed people that I care about. I think really, it's about growing into the strength and the courage to begin to discern, in these
(13:03):
moments, in these scenarios, in these situations, these conversations, am I self betraying here? Yeah, do I need to speak up? Is it worth my time even? Do I care enough to even do it? Am I do I careabout this relationship with You don't have to be you don't have to think that's cruel to speak your mind. That is not unkind. Agreement disagreement is not unkind. Okay, that's another this be nice versus kind. Thing is a challenge. I have
Amy Lynn Durham (13:36):
so many questions I almost can't get them out of my brain. Okay, so how does that work for women in leadership? I'm just thinking of what really weighs on me here, and conversations I've had with really close friends where we talk about situations we've been in and we're like, why didn't we say something? Why didn't we say something? Well, there's
Sandra Bargman (13:58):
the shadow work. There's the shadow work man and I mean the shadow side of compassion is, you know, this blind acceptance, it's sentimentality, it's, you know, self indulgent, it's non nuanced. It's all of those things. And in a patriarchal society, women have learned that if they disagree that again, it's this back to this confrontation. If they disagree that they're somehow they're not leading. They don't want to speak up because they will be perceived as being aggressive, and they don't want to be that kind of leader when being truthful and sharing your opinion in a neutral way, a powerful way, but neutral, I mean, that's modeling leadership.
Amy Lynn Durham (14:49):
Unbelievably. What are your thoughts on when there's certain situations like I can think of for myself, I know other friends have come. Fighted these situations where there's inappropriateness, comments, just things like that, where they don't seem really egregious, but, and it's kind of like I'm not even gonna cause a scene right now, or just I'll just laugh at this idiot that just violated me, and just
Sandra Bargman (15:21):
keep it moving. Just keep it moving. So what right do you get out of that? So what you get is you get to not have someone look at you all twisted and upset. That's what you get, correct. You're not saving any situation. All you're getting back is you don't have to look at someone being upset with you, so you've got to be in this position of, I'm going to ruffle some feathers. I'm going to take a breath. I mean, this is something that I you know, in my coaching, the power of silence. Man, can I just stand here? I'm not gonna laugh. I'm gonna stand here in my silence or sit here in my silence while this person is uncomfortable and I might be too and not react. Not say something cool, not say something whiny.
Amy Lynn Durham (16:18):
I don't tolerate that kind of conversation. Please don't do it again around me.
Sandra Bargman (16:28):
But after that moment of silence where it is so palpable, you have a moment to calm yourself and to find the words to speak that you don't accept this. You draw the line in the sand there. But that moment of silence, the power of that silence, if there's one thing anyone takes away from this to not react. Stand in silence, in your power, or sit wherever it may be, non reactive. I share how you feel about it, take a breath, flood your brain with and say the truth. Find that courage, summon it within your breath.
Amy Lynn Durham (17:15):
And would you say that is ferocious compassion? If somebody
Sandra Bargman (17:18):
I would say that absolutely ferocious compassion.
Amy Lynn Durham (17:22):
And what would you say? There's so many moments like that that we find ourselves in, just in my experience, that we're caught off guard, right, very calm, or maybe enjoying ourselves or and then something kind of like hits us out of nowhere, and we're like, what like? We kind of freeze in the moment, and then later maybe we're rehashing with a colleague or a friend or whoever, like, why didn't you what could I have said? Why didn't I say something? Why didn't I pause? Why did I just let that go? Why didn't I have the courage to be disliked. Why didn't I have the ferocious compassion? And then we go down this road of, I betrayed myself. I feel like crap. I I want to cry, like, why didn't I say something? Well, like
Sandra Bargman (18:12):
anything, it's a muscle. It's an absolute muscle. I mean, first and foremost, it's a commitment to self that I am going to learn how to do this. This is my intention. I am no longer going to do this. I'm going to have compassion with myself, because I'm not going to be brilliant every time I realize that this is a work in progress, but I'm going to make the intention today that I will be able, you know, because at the end of the day, it's not about the other person, it's my own discomfort with doing it. That is the self betrayal piece. That's the compassion to self, that's I don't want to see their reaction, so I'm not going to do it. I it. I need to grow this muscle, work on it every single and allow myself the moment to take that, you know, because there is a moment where you can, you're like, Oh, I feel awkward. And then I can take a breath. I can just stop. I can work that muscle and start again.
Amy Lynn Durham (19:27):
So good over
Sandra Bargman (19:29):
and over and over, and if it doesn't go brilliantly, don't beat yourself up. Start again. I mean, mistakes are the path to success.
Amy Lynn Durham (19:40):
Yeah, in the spiritual intelligence coaching, I work with clients that we say, Thank you for the practice. Thank you for the practice today. Thank you for the practice. I'll, I'll, you know, I'll practice again tomorrow. Thank you for the practice. I also, yeah, right. I also see once we start, I. Exercising the courage to be disliked, the courage to speak our truth, the courage to be in kind confrontation, I might add that right because right, it's not unkind to disagree once we start passionately that I have experienced and have seen with a pendulum swing, sometimes a little too far to the other side, because we haven't practiced being in that space of presence. And so when we're practicing this courage to be disliked, this courage to speak, often, it comes out quite ferocious, or maybe even goes into the unkind space thoughts on that
Sandra Bargman (20:51):
well again. I mean, my first instinct is to just say, don't beat yourself up. I mean, you know, remember, you're learning, you're empowering yourself, and there's a lot of pent up moments of not having done that. So maybe right going forward, but, but you know, again, it's, I mean, we all know. We all, we all have differing understandings of what is too much? I think that there's, you know, we can know for being hurtful that that's too much if we're really passionate about it and we speak loudly. Is that too much? Is it too much for our listener to receive? Maybe. But is it really too much? I mean, these are all things to learn. And again, I swing back around to, you know, it's funny. Makes me think of a couple of examples, like when I was in, oh, this is great story. I had just finished my two year training at the second seminary through which I was ordained for my counseling practice, and I was taking my mentor from the first two year training, from my first ordination, out to dinner to celebrate. And I was excitedly telling him so. And this was in angering the reluctant leader, and I was excitedly telling him that, you know, I'm going to do this, this, and I'm so excited about this. And I leaned in and I got all excited and passionate. And this is what he said to me. He said, Well, you can't Minister people with that kind of energy. And right then and there. And my answer to him was, yes, I can. Like, shocking. It was shocking. Oh, wow. So I have to calm down. I have to be small. I need to be precious. I need got it sweet. Got it No, I don't that reminds me I've got this great the Naomi Wolf quote. The idea that women are innately gentle is a fantasy and a historically recent one. Yeah. I mean, just look to the Goddesses, you know, so, right? I mean, I guess I might even answering this. I'm using on it more than anything. But, you know, I think that there's a spectrum of what, what is too much, and what is going too far. And the
(23:26):
work is to be comfortable with maybe, maybe with this particular person. You went too far. They didn't receive it, but you set it in, potentially in the way that you, you you wanted to. And you know,everyone is required to do this internal work if this person who's not receiving it is triggered, and it's like, oh my gosh, this woman is too big. There's some internal work they can do. Oh, so some women speak passionately. Got it. There's the work, there's the spiritual intelligence work that has required everyone in this relationship? Yeah, I can learn to deliver this in a way, but I don't need to it to be completely unless it's really important to in this relationship, in which case I will add into the conversation. Listen, I'm speaking very passionately about this, and I want you to receive this message. This is important to me, and I'm not going to tone it down, because when I hear the words tone it down, my head wants to explode. Oh, my God, I just channeled something that I might have said to my husband. So funny. Oh, he totally Yeah. He's like, Yeah, I know, I married you.
Amy Lynn Durham (24:43):
So I think from this, what I'm this is really a call for us to sort of question how we're operating. This is my, one of my takeaways, and what's what? Where are we just doing things like we've always done, yes, status quo, right? Like, where have we just ingested this makeup of how we're supposed to be, and we're just acting it out, always done, right? Versus, who am I? Am, I would much rather tap into ferocious compassion, be able to pause in a moment, be able to kindly speak my truth, not be afraid of the reactions around me or making the other people uncomfortable, because I think that's also been ingrained in a lot of us, is we were the hostess, we make everything nice. It's has to be pleasant, and then if somebody does something inappropriate or makes some sort of comments, but inside you're like, this a hole or whatever. So how do I how do we pause? And that's the practice, and that is exactly what you said, the uncomfortable practice for me, not for anybody else, because I have to sit with that uncomfortable feeling. I have to sit knowing the room might be uncomfortable. But for me, the payoff is I don't have to sit with myself later. I don't sound like I betrayed myself and going through all the different ways I could have done it differently, or what I could have said, or what I should have said, or XYZ, and the other so powerful and big and I mean, I'm just thinking, personally, I don't know if I could. It's a practice. And I think the self compassion is I couldn't leave this conversation right now and do it in every single room I'm in, or in every single conversation, because it's a practice. Because sometimes, like I mentioned earlier, when we were talking, you're caught off guard. You're like, what the heck with that right now? I was just chilling, and this person just did something really inappropriate, or said something, you know, and in a work cocktail party, you're the random inappropriate person at the holiday
(27:12):
party. Speaking of that, since we're going into the holidays, right? So on that note, what is a tip that you can give us, because you are just the the lead and ferocious compassion here for us. Whatis a tip that you can give us going into the holidays?
Sandra Bargman (27:34):
Be ready to throw a drink? No, I'm kidding. Well again I think because it's a practice. I mean, you have to know every event that you're going to, you're going to have a moment like this. I mean, so don't so shoot, make the intention to not be shocked that it happens. I mean, because I think that's just part of the thing is that we, oh, it's just great. We're so naive. And just understand that it's always going to happen. There's going to always going to be one, at least one. So be prepared. You know, you don't have to focus on it, but be aware that it's going to happen. So when it arrives, you're not like jaw on the ground and giggling. And again, it's about that intention. I'm going to work really hard to just take a breath and and and decide for myself feel into this moment, just to take a good deep breath to support myself and feel into this moment. Is this? Do I feel disrespected? What are my feelings in this moment? What is my body telling me? Am I feeling unsafe? Do I need to leave? Am I, you know, and all this is instant. You know, it's not like you're standing there, like I gotta breathe. I'm gonna take forever. This is the muscle that in the moment you can ascertain this. And am I going to see this person again? Can I just leave is this relationship important to me? And if it is, how can I share how this makes me feel with them? Listen that kind of comment feels very disrespectful. I don't want to be privy to that. There's no argument there the person that receives that, I mean, they can, they can choose to be a jerk about it, but you've not been out of line, and you've not been unkind. You just haven't accepted it. You have given yourself the self respect that you didn't feel in the conversation. So, I mean, I'll just circle back is you just got to go for it. You got to make the intention. If it's a crazy person that you have to see at the holidays. I'm always one for comedy in those situations, but I don't even get together with my
(29:54):
fan. I don't have that scenario in my life anymore, and the people that I disagree with prefer. Soundly in a political way, but back in the day when I did, I would just, I'd laugh, I would just laughand crack a joke, and to make it very clear that I'm not taking this seriously, and I find what you just said to be a massive joke. I mean, I don't suggest everyone do that. Not everyone's a comedian, but certainly it's not my fault. Back on. You know, for me, the social justice aspect is important. So if I'm around it like I was just recently at a party, it was a baby shower, and there was a woman, an old woman older than me, I'm supposed to say older woman. I'm like, No, you are an older woman, a woman older than me. Was sitting next to me, and she made a disparaging remark about a neighbor of hers the race, and she used the proverbial N word. And I turned to her, Oh, I was shocked. I said, it's 2025 Are you still using that word? Now? I smiled and laughed when I said it, but to mitigate a bit because I didn't know her, but I'm never going to see her again. There was an instant reckoning within me, like, can I make this statement that these kinds of comments I'm not going to let slide ever again in my entire life? Can I do it in a way that it can be received? She apologized, btw, and which shocked me, but you know, it's like she knew you take, take that shit elsewhere. Don't do it around me. Turn, turn to the other side, the person you're sitting with over there, and go for it, not with me. But you know, all of these moments of, am I going to see this person again? Am I going to see this group again? Being a non racist shouldn't have to be a deciding factor in whether or not I'm going to remain friends with the person that invited me. And you know what, if it is Bye, and that's not correct for the workspace, and I understand that however, you know, there are going to be people that you'll just stay clear of unless, unless there are other people around to
(31:59):
manage the conversation?
Amy Lynn Durham (32:01):
Yeah, yeah. I think it's a good illustration of a way that you handled something kindly, like I was speaking to before dipping into the where the pendulum swings all the way over and like knocking over the cake at the baby shower or something and getting all crazy. What about fun? What about men in this conversation? Where do they fit? With ferocious compassion?
Sandra Bargman (32:27):
Well, that's a fabulous question. Amy, thank you, because you know, in my mind, as I you know, this is so patriarchy driven and wanting to dismantle the patriarchy, which is so not anti men, it's anti the system that uplifts and centers men over women. Really, I would have the same advice for men. I think men are generally I'm going to make a big brush stroke better at confrontation, better at being okay with being disliked speaking out. But if they're with a boss or somebody that has a bit of authority over them, they may want to go along and laugh, but I think that the same holds true, that listen at the end of the day, when people act with great integrity, no one has anything on you. So if a man can as well as a woman can stop take that powerful, silent moment, take a breath and simply say, I don't care for that kind of comment. I don't want to engage in that kind of conversation. There's no one has anything on you. All they see is they may be pissed, they may label you, but at the end of the day, they know that was integrity. You've just vibed up both yourself and that person, if they can handle it good.
Amy Lynn Durham (33:58):
Had a thought, I wonder if, in some of these cocktail parties spaces, when we are not having the courage to be disliked or the courage to speak our truth in a kind way, I wonder if it's doing ourselves a disservice at a whole other level. Because I'm wondering if men even understand what's going on internally. They're thinking, Oh, everything's fine. I'm just thinking of some specific situations throughout my life. You know? They're thinking, Oh, this is okay. This is because no one else around has had the courage. Yeah. And then here we're in this self betrayal space, and there's this whole disconnect with each other at times as to like it's really going on in these social settings. I'm unpacking all of that. I could talk about this forever.
Sandra Bargman (34:54):
No, I totally get it well. And it's, do you throw your hands up and say, okay, but you know, no. This matters, I'm just going to keep going along with it. Or do I start? Do I just start? And some woman will be watching me, and maybe the man that I'm doing it with may get it, some little light bulb might go off, or some man that has felt the authority of another man over him and been put in a compromising position, he's going to be seeing it too, and seeing it for it for the women in his life. And, you know, it's just the ripple effect of it. You got to believe in that. You got to start somewhere. It's got to be important. If we're going to see the change, we've got to be the change.
Amy Lynn Durham (35:38):
Yeah, so deep today. Okay, I want to propose a couple of things. I really feel like I need to read my favorite quote one more time to let it soak in for myself and all the listeners. And then after that, I thought it would be fun to pull a card from the edge Walker card deck, not from the creepy massacre, work journal, prom card deck, because you and I are both edge Walker facilitators. The Edge walkers are the bridge builders and the change makers of the world. And the edge Walker Arc type of change is someone that has a creative positive visualization for the future and all of those things. A lot of you out there listening, if you've worked with create magic at work. You may have taken the edge Walker profile with us or the archetypes of change, but since Sandra and I are both edge Walker facilitators, I thought it would be fun to pull an edge Walker card and kind of cool to see what we get. But before we do, I have to say this again, because I read it every day, and I know our friend Allison's like, I want this as a poster on my wall again. Go grab the love notes anthology, 2.0 we'll put it in the show notes. Sandra's chapter on ferocious compassion is in there, and my favorite quote is ferocious compassion requires that I find the courage to speak my truth, to find the courage to be disliked, to find the courage to turn and face confrontation. Ferocious compassion guides me to choose authenticity over approval, and my takeaway today, among many, is the practice and the self compassion as we build that muscle with this quote, really, with the courage to be just like the courage to speak your truth, the courage to turn and face confrontation and to choose authenticity over approval, the one of the most powerful sentences I think I've ever read. So thank you for bringing ferocious compassion to the world. I mean incredible to just bring these conversations that get people thinking unbelievable. So I'm gonna pull a card from the
(37:45):
edge Walker card deck for us of the chills, and I'm gonna do something different, Sandra, I'm gonna lay them out, and then you tell me one, two
Sandra Bargman (37:57):
or three, three. Okay, vision,
Amy Lynn Durham (38:04):
yeah, these are so magical. So they're on the five skills and the five qualities of an edge Walker, and one of them is vision, the gift of being able to see what others cannot, possibilities, trends, the future, and guidance from something greater than oneself and
Sandra Bargman (38:22):
oh my gosh, look at this
Amy Lynn Durham (38:25):
presence, presence for everyone listening. This is our message based off of this conversation. I have a gift of seeing what others cannot through presence and deep listening. I have a gift of seeing what others or not, through presence and deep listening. And this right away, I go to those moments where you were talking about taking a pause, having that presence to speak in a kind way, but the courage to be disliked and the courage to speak your truth in that presence. So amazing, amazing, yeah, yeah,
Sandra Bargman (39:06):
deep, listening to what the moment needs.
Amy Lynn Durham (39:09):
Yeah, yeah. Sandra, thank you so much for being on create magic at work. Thank you for bringing ferocious compassion to all of us to the world. Thank you for being the voice and presence coach for create magic at work. You're doing some incredible work with us, in that regard, for people that want to bring their voices to life. And so if anybody is interested, check the show notes. How else would you like people to connect with you?
Sandra Bargman (39:39):
You can go to my website. Sandra bargeman.com, I am all over social media. You can find me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram and I I'm occasionally on x, but primarily on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn and my website. And you can also. So listen to my podcast. It's called the edge of every day. It streams on all the podcast platforms, and Amy Lynn Durham has been a featured guest a few times. And can also go to my YouTube channel, Sandra bargeman on the edge of every day and check that out. Many ways of listening to the podcast. And there's also other videos on my YouTube channel that talk about some of the other work that I do, my trainings, you know, the processes that I use. And I've even got some wedding videos and some shows, some performances as well. So it's a little it's a mishmash of my multi hyphenate life.
Amy Lynn Durham (40:41):
Thank you so much for bringing up the edge of every day. I meant to mention that, if so anybody listening, Sandra's show is amazing, and it's super spicy, like this conversation today. It's called the edge of every day, and she doesn't edit it, and she just goes live with her guests. It's amazing. You can, you know, listen to me, yeah. It's so cool. So thank you again, Sandra, thank you for being such a cherished friend, and thank you for sharing this with all of the create magic at work. Listeners, thank you.
Sandra Bargman (41:10):
Oh Amy, it's a deep honor and pleasure and every sentiment right back at you.
Amy Lynn Durham (41:15):
I want to thank each and every one of you for being here as we explore what it really means to create magic at work. If this conversation resonated with you, or if someone came to mind while you were listening, share the episode with them. Help others who are looking for these types of conversations find us and don't forget to follow, subscribe, rate and review so you're notified when the next episode airs until next time. Keep edge walking, keep challenging the way things have always been done, and keep making magic at work.
Originating from the Latin compati Compassion means to see the suffering of others and take action to stop it. While this is a noble pursuit, it leaves much room for interpretation. The choosing and taking of actions can also be filtered through ego control and judgment. My highest spiritual understanding of compassion is this allow everyone without judgment or hatred to make their own choices on their own path. Think about the profound and life altering generosity in that ferocious compassion requires that I find the courage to speak my truth, to find the courage to be disliked, to find the courage to turn and face confrontation. Ferocious compassion guides me to choose authenticity over approval. Ferocious compassion allows me to make my decisions for my own highest good and not for anyone else's comfort. It allows me the freedom to assert myself, to be vulnerable, to express, not suppress my true emotions and intentions, for my own heart to stay open. I can no longer pretend to make nice and try to understand the numerous assaults to my intelligence and my integrity. I can no longer befriend people who vote against my reproductive or equity rights. I can no longer tolerate cruelty, anti intelligence and belligerent racism.
Amy Lynn Durham (01:51):
Hey, it's Amy Welcome to Create Magic at Work, where we cast visions for a future of work, where business decisions ripple outward to our teams, our communities, the planet and humanity as a whole. If you're ready to edge, walk instead of sleep, walk through your leadership, you're in the right place. So let's start making magic at work.
(02:12):
And that my friends, was my dear friend, Sandra bargeman. If you have not heard her on the create magic at work podcast before we have had many discussions around women and anger the reluctant leader,and today, Sandra is joining us to talk about ferocious compassion, a new thought concept that she has, and it's also from the book Love Notes, 2.0 a chapter she has contributed to that book. Let me give you a little bit about Sandra's background before we get into a conversation. Sandra is masterful at teaching the vocal techniques and storytelling skills that empower business leaders to create impactful communication and authentic presence. Her dual career as a professional actor, singer, director and as a life counselor made for a natural training ground for her to become an impactful communication and presence teacher and coach, with a BFA in drama from Carnegie Mellon and a 30 plus year professional career that took her around the world, both on stage and behind the scenes, behind the mic and on camera, Sandra understands firsthand what it takes to tell a story in a powerful and engaging way. And by the way, Sandra is also on the create magic at work coaching team. She is the voice and presence coach on the team, and I am so honored to have her as part of our team, and to be here today to dive into ferocious compassion. I cannot wait to talk about it, because I have so many questions, and we're always in spicy conversations together, so hopefully everybody listening is just kind of ready to listen. Approach things from an open mind. You know, we're recording this conversation in the beginning of towards the beginning of December, and we're going into the final stretch of the holiday season we've passed Thanksgiving here in the US. So this is going to be a cool conversation, talking about ferocious compassion. And the thing I keep telling myself that I learned from your writing, the courage to be disliked, the courage to be disliked, that is something that
(04:40):
rings through me throughout the day. It has just really stuck with me. How do I have the courage to be disliked? So Sandra, welcome back to create magic at work, and thank you for being here.
Sandra Bargman (04:55):
Oh, Hello Amy, and Hello listeners. Thank you so much for having me. Back. It's great to be here.
Amy Lynn Durham (05:01):
Thank you for being this bold, courageous individual, to bring these spicy topics to the air, to get us thinking my ferocious compassion. Tell us, I know you read from your book, but tell us what that mean. What does that mean to you? How do we wrap our minds around how we can be ferociously compassionate?
Sandra Bargman (05:27):
Well, there's so many ways I knew, of course, you were going to ask that, what is ferocious compassion? But I'll tell you, like all things, you know, this was a phrase that emerged out of a conversation. It emerged when I was reflecting on the conversation and these words, ferocious compassion together seemed so wonderfully paradoxical, and which, of course, is the edge of every day. It's how I walk through the world. The complexity of that I loved but it, and in choosing to write about it, I really had to sit with it and really flesh it out for myself, first and foremost, and then in writing format that I could share with others, and I think succinctly, I just, of course read what I think it is. But I think for me, the idea of, you know, fierce compassion is out there. Now, trust me, I googled it the second it arose. Is ferocious compassion out there. But I loved the the idea of ferocious as being very animalistic, and it really brought me to this idea of the wild woman. And you know, my great love for Clarissa Pinkola Estes and the reclamation of this wild woman that all you know, this notion that women have been in a patriarchal society, have been, you know, dumbed down, and we have to behave, be ladylike or be quiet or make nice or make peace and be softer, and that our our passion is confused with with being an angry, aggressive woman. And I just refuse, at this point in my life, to embrace that, and I want to get back to that fully expressing who I am with authentically, not for approval. And that's where this embrace of being disliked. And, you know, I think for women, it's really difficult, we are socialized to want to be liked, and that if I'm liked, I belong. Meanwhile, I'm I'm I'm self betraying myself. And this self betrayal is another part of ferocious compassion. I have to have compassion for myself. First and foremost, I cannot betray myself to make other people comfortable. And I think, in a nutshell, this this
(07:58):
decentering of making nice, I'm always going to be kind. I'm always going to meet people where they are. As I said, the highest version of compassion is to allow people to make the decisions forthemselves that are in their highest interest. I might disagree with them, but Have at it, but I then will meet you where you are, and I will have I will make a decision about what is right for me, and I will not work to make nice with you, to make you comfortable with decisions that that go against something that That is helpful and supportive of me.
Amy Lynn Durham (08:42):
Yeah, we think that's a long answer. No, it's good. I could listen to you talk forever in the skills of spiritual intelligence, which we talk about a lot on create magic. Your work skill 19, making wise and compassionate decisions. It's faith neutral for leaders in the workplace. And one of the common things that arise in when someone takes the assessment and the recommends come out is exactly what you just said, that consider that making wise and compassionate decisions involves not necessarily knowing the right way for everyone, and allowing people to have their own journey. And maybe the mistake that they're that you think they're making might be the best mistake they ever made for their path or for their journey. So I think about that when you share that, the other piece that I love, I look at it all the time. It's a sentence from your chapter in love notes 2.0 it says, ferocious compassion requires that I find the courage to speak my truth, to find the courage to be disliked, to find the courage to turn and face. Confrontation, ferocious compassion guides me to choose authenticity over approval. Where is that line between holding space for someone that has conflicting viewpoints versus finding the courage to be disliked or turning and facing confrontation, because I think of different situations we're in. And sometimes I will hold space in moments that I did feel like I was doing some self betrayal, and then in other moments, I feel like, No, this is a real generative conversation. I don't know. I think it's
Sandra Bargman (10:41):
such a it's yeah, it's such a learning curve, particularly for women again. First of all, I want to just be present to the word confrontation, because I think that everyone is, is that that's a real trigger for people, because they think of confrontation as as being argumentative, or in some sort of battle, when, in fact, it means to just simply turn and face, to confront, to be realistic about what is to be present, to what is happening right at the moment, and to not, you know, take the High Road maybe, and not share your actual feelings about something. You know, taking the high road is different things. Sometimes people just really don't care and want to go away. But in the fear of confrontation, the taking the high road can sometimes lead to self betrayal, but the sense of embrace of the word confrontation as Listen, this is my this is how I feel, and I have the self respect for my feelings without I don't need to make you wrong. I don't need to get in an argument. I don't have to, you know, again, compassion, you get to believe what you want, but I get to believe what I want, too, and does if we're having a if I feel respect back in this give and take of understanding that we're in disagreement, then I can stay in conversation. If I do not feel that, then no, I will not. I will leave the conversation. I will say no, I will not welcome someone in, and I will be very clear about or I will call someone out on something. And I have learned that I need to be really clear with that, and I have to have the courage to speak up. You know, that's another thing we don't, particularly women, but I know, you know, we all do it if somebody's making some sort of sarcastic or racist or, you know, some sort of comment, and I'm privy to it, and I don't say something, I feel, really, I've self betrayed, and I've betrayed people that I care about. I think really, it's about growing into the strength and the courage to begin to discern, in these
(13:03):
moments, in these scenarios, in these situations, these conversations, am I self betraying here? Yeah, do I need to speak up? Is it worth my time even? Do I care enough to even do it? Am I do I careabout this relationship with You don't have to be you don't have to think that's cruel to speak your mind. That is not unkind. Agreement disagreement is not unkind. Okay, that's another this be nice versus kind. Thing is a challenge. I have
Amy Lynn Durham (13:36):
so many questions I almost can't get them out of my brain. Okay, so how does that work for women in leadership? I'm just thinking of what really weighs on me here, and conversations I've had with really close friends where we talk about situations we've been in and we're like, why didn't we say something? Why didn't we say something? Well, there's
Sandra Bargman (13:58):
the shadow work. There's the shadow work man and I mean the shadow side of compassion is, you know, this blind acceptance, it's sentimentality, it's, you know, self indulgent, it's non nuanced. It's all of those things. And in a patriarchal society, women have learned that if they disagree that again, it's this back to this confrontation. If they disagree that they're somehow they're not leading. They don't want to speak up because they will be perceived as being aggressive, and they don't want to be that kind of leader when being truthful and sharing your opinion in a neutral way, a powerful way, but neutral, I mean, that's modeling leadership.
Amy Lynn Durham (14:49):
Unbelievably. What are your thoughts on when there's certain situations like I can think of for myself, I know other friends have come. Fighted these situations where there's inappropriateness, comments, just things like that, where they don't seem really egregious, but, and it's kind of like I'm not even gonna cause a scene right now, or just I'll just laugh at this idiot that just violated me, and just
Sandra Bargman (15:21):
keep it moving. Just keep it moving. So what right do you get out of that? So what you get is you get to not have someone look at you all twisted and upset. That's what you get, correct. You're not saving any situation. All you're getting back is you don't have to look at someone being upset with you, so you've got to be in this position of, I'm going to ruffle some feathers. I'm going to take a breath. I mean, this is something that I you know, in my coaching, the power of silence. Man, can I just stand here? I'm not gonna laugh. I'm gonna stand here in my silence or sit here in my silence while this person is uncomfortable and I might be too and not react. Not say something cool, not say something whiny.
Amy Lynn Durham (16:18):
I don't tolerate that kind of conversation. Please don't do it again around me.
Sandra Bargman (16:28):
But after that moment of silence where it is so palpable, you have a moment to calm yourself and to find the words to speak that you don't accept this. You draw the line in the sand there. But that moment of silence, the power of that silence, if there's one thing anyone takes away from this to not react. Stand in silence, in your power, or sit wherever it may be, non reactive. I share how you feel about it, take a breath, flood your brain with and say the truth. Find that courage, summon it within your breath.
Amy Lynn Durham (17:15):
And would you say that is ferocious compassion? If somebody
Sandra Bargman (17:18):
I would say that absolutely ferocious compassion.
Amy Lynn Durham (17:22):
And what would you say? There's so many moments like that that we find ourselves in, just in my experience, that we're caught off guard, right, very calm, or maybe enjoying ourselves or and then something kind of like hits us out of nowhere, and we're like, what like? We kind of freeze in the moment, and then later maybe we're rehashing with a colleague or a friend or whoever, like, why didn't you what could I have said? Why didn't I say something? Why didn't I pause? Why did I just let that go? Why didn't I have the courage to be disliked. Why didn't I have the ferocious compassion? And then we go down this road of, I betrayed myself. I feel like crap. I I want to cry, like, why didn't I say something? Well, like
Sandra Bargman (18:12):
anything, it's a muscle. It's an absolute muscle. I mean, first and foremost, it's a commitment to self that I am going to learn how to do this. This is my intention. I am no longer going to do this. I'm going to have compassion with myself, because I'm not going to be brilliant every time I realize that this is a work in progress, but I'm going to make the intention today that I will be able, you know, because at the end of the day, it's not about the other person, it's my own discomfort with doing it. That is the self betrayal piece. That's the compassion to self, that's I don't want to see their reaction, so I'm not going to do it. I it. I need to grow this muscle, work on it every single and allow myself the moment to take that, you know, because there is a moment where you can, you're like, Oh, I feel awkward. And then I can take a breath. I can just stop. I can work that muscle and start again.
Amy Lynn Durham (19:27):
So good over
Sandra Bargman (19:29):
and over and over, and if it doesn't go brilliantly, don't beat yourself up. Start again. I mean, mistakes are the path to success.
Amy Lynn Durham (19:40):
Yeah, in the spiritual intelligence coaching, I work with clients that we say, Thank you for the practice. Thank you for the practice today. Thank you for the practice. I'll, I'll, you know, I'll practice again tomorrow. Thank you for the practice. I also, yeah, right. I also see once we start, I. Exercising the courage to be disliked, the courage to speak our truth, the courage to be in kind confrontation, I might add that right because right, it's not unkind to disagree once we start passionately that I have experienced and have seen with a pendulum swing, sometimes a little too far to the other side, because we haven't practiced being in that space of presence. And so when we're practicing this courage to be disliked, this courage to speak, often, it comes out quite ferocious, or maybe even goes into the unkind space thoughts on that
Sandra Bargman (20:51):
well again. I mean, my first instinct is to just say, don't beat yourself up. I mean, you know, remember, you're learning, you're empowering yourself, and there's a lot of pent up moments of not having done that. So maybe right going forward, but, but you know, again, it's, I mean, we all know. We all, we all have differing understandings of what is too much? I think that there's, you know, we can know for being hurtful that that's too much if we're really passionate about it and we speak loudly. Is that too much? Is it too much for our listener to receive? Maybe. But is it really too much? I mean, these are all things to learn. And again, I swing back around to, you know, it's funny. Makes me think of a couple of examples, like when I was in, oh, this is great story. I had just finished my two year training at the second seminary through which I was ordained for my counseling practice, and I was taking my mentor from the first two year training, from my first ordination, out to dinner to celebrate. And I was excitedly telling him so. And this was in angering the reluctant leader, and I was excitedly telling him that, you know, I'm going to do this, this, and I'm so excited about this. And I leaned in and I got all excited and passionate. And this is what he said to me. He said, Well, you can't Minister people with that kind of energy. And right then and there. And my answer to him was, yes, I can. Like, shocking. It was shocking. Oh, wow. So I have to calm down. I have to be small. I need to be precious. I need got it sweet. Got it No, I don't that reminds me I've got this great the Naomi Wolf quote. The idea that women are innately gentle is a fantasy and a historically recent one. Yeah. I mean, just look to the Goddesses, you know, so, right? I mean, I guess I might even answering this. I'm using on it more than anything. But, you know, I think that there's a spectrum of what, what is too much, and what is going too far. And the
(23:26):
work is to be comfortable with maybe, maybe with this particular person. You went too far. They didn't receive it, but you set it in, potentially in the way that you, you you wanted to. And you know,everyone is required to do this internal work if this person who's not receiving it is triggered, and it's like, oh my gosh, this woman is too big. There's some internal work they can do. Oh, so some women speak passionately. Got it. There's the work, there's the spiritual intelligence work that has required everyone in this relationship? Yeah, I can learn to deliver this in a way, but I don't need to it to be completely unless it's really important to in this relationship, in which case I will add into the conversation. Listen, I'm speaking very passionately about this, and I want you to receive this message. This is important to me, and I'm not going to tone it down, because when I hear the words tone it down, my head wants to explode. Oh, my God, I just channeled something that I might have said to my husband. So funny. Oh, he totally Yeah. He's like, Yeah, I know, I married you.
Amy Lynn Durham (24:43):
So I think from this, what I'm this is really a call for us to sort of question how we're operating. This is my, one of my takeaways, and what's what? Where are we just doing things like we've always done, yes, status quo, right? Like, where have we just ingested this makeup of how we're supposed to be, and we're just acting it out, always done, right? Versus, who am I? Am, I would much rather tap into ferocious compassion, be able to pause in a moment, be able to kindly speak my truth, not be afraid of the reactions around me or making the other people uncomfortable, because I think that's also been ingrained in a lot of us, is we were the hostess, we make everything nice. It's has to be pleasant, and then if somebody does something inappropriate or makes some sort of comments, but inside you're like, this a hole or whatever. So how do I how do we pause? And that's the practice, and that is exactly what you said, the uncomfortable practice for me, not for anybody else, because I have to sit with that uncomfortable feeling. I have to sit knowing the room might be uncomfortable. But for me, the payoff is I don't have to sit with myself later. I don't sound like I betrayed myself and going through all the different ways I could have done it differently, or what I could have said, or what I should have said, or XYZ, and the other so powerful and big and I mean, I'm just thinking, personally, I don't know if I could. It's a practice. And I think the self compassion is I couldn't leave this conversation right now and do it in every single room I'm in, or in every single conversation, because it's a practice. Because sometimes, like I mentioned earlier, when we were talking, you're caught off guard. You're like, what the heck with that right now? I was just chilling, and this person just did something really inappropriate, or said something, you know, and in a work cocktail party, you're the random inappropriate person at the holiday
(27:12):
party. Speaking of that, since we're going into the holidays, right? So on that note, what is a tip that you can give us, because you are just the the lead and ferocious compassion here for us. Whatis a tip that you can give us going into the holidays?
Sandra Bargman (27:34):
Be ready to throw a drink? No, I'm kidding. Well again I think because it's a practice. I mean, you have to know every event that you're going to, you're going to have a moment like this. I mean, so don't so shoot, make the intention to not be shocked that it happens. I mean, because I think that's just part of the thing is that we, oh, it's just great. We're so naive. And just understand that it's always going to happen. There's going to always going to be one, at least one. So be prepared. You know, you don't have to focus on it, but be aware that it's going to happen. So when it arrives, you're not like jaw on the ground and giggling. And again, it's about that intention. I'm going to work really hard to just take a breath and and and decide for myself feel into this moment, just to take a good deep breath to support myself and feel into this moment. Is this? Do I feel disrespected? What are my feelings in this moment? What is my body telling me? Am I feeling unsafe? Do I need to leave? Am I, you know, and all this is instant. You know, it's not like you're standing there, like I gotta breathe. I'm gonna take forever. This is the muscle that in the moment you can ascertain this. And am I going to see this person again? Can I just leave is this relationship important to me? And if it is, how can I share how this makes me feel with them? Listen that kind of comment feels very disrespectful. I don't want to be privy to that. There's no argument there the person that receives that, I mean, they can, they can choose to be a jerk about it, but you've not been out of line, and you've not been unkind. You just haven't accepted it. You have given yourself the self respect that you didn't feel in the conversation. So, I mean, I'll just circle back is you just got to go for it. You got to make the intention. If it's a crazy person that you have to see at the holidays. I'm always one for comedy in those situations, but I don't even get together with my
(29:54):
fan. I don't have that scenario in my life anymore, and the people that I disagree with prefer. Soundly in a political way, but back in the day when I did, I would just, I'd laugh, I would just laughand crack a joke, and to make it very clear that I'm not taking this seriously, and I find what you just said to be a massive joke. I mean, I don't suggest everyone do that. Not everyone's a comedian, but certainly it's not my fault. Back on. You know, for me, the social justice aspect is important. So if I'm around it like I was just recently at a party, it was a baby shower, and there was a woman, an old woman older than me, I'm supposed to say older woman. I'm like, No, you are an older woman, a woman older than me. Was sitting next to me, and she made a disparaging remark about a neighbor of hers the race, and she used the proverbial N word. And I turned to her, Oh, I was shocked. I said, it's 2025 Are you still using that word? Now? I smiled and laughed when I said it, but to mitigate a bit because I didn't know her, but I'm never going to see her again. There was an instant reckoning within me, like, can I make this statement that these kinds of comments I'm not going to let slide ever again in my entire life? Can I do it in a way that it can be received? She apologized, btw, and which shocked me, but you know, it's like she knew you take, take that shit elsewhere. Don't do it around me. Turn, turn to the other side, the person you're sitting with over there, and go for it, not with me. But you know, all of these moments of, am I going to see this person again? Am I going to see this group again? Being a non racist shouldn't have to be a deciding factor in whether or not I'm going to remain friends with the person that invited me. And you know what, if it is Bye, and that's not correct for the workspace, and I understand that however, you know, there are going to be people that you'll just stay clear of unless, unless there are other people around to
(31:59):
manage the conversation?
Amy Lynn Durham (32:01):
Yeah, yeah. I think it's a good illustration of a way that you handled something kindly, like I was speaking to before dipping into the where the pendulum swings all the way over and like knocking over the cake at the baby shower or something and getting all crazy. What about fun? What about men in this conversation? Where do they fit? With ferocious compassion?
Sandra Bargman (32:27):
Well, that's a fabulous question. Amy, thank you, because you know, in my mind, as I you know, this is so patriarchy driven and wanting to dismantle the patriarchy, which is so not anti men, it's anti the system that uplifts and centers men over women. Really, I would have the same advice for men. I think men are generally I'm going to make a big brush stroke better at confrontation, better at being okay with being disliked speaking out. But if they're with a boss or somebody that has a bit of authority over them, they may want to go along and laugh, but I think that the same holds true, that listen at the end of the day, when people act with great integrity, no one has anything on you. So if a man can as well as a woman can stop take that powerful, silent moment, take a breath and simply say, I don't care for that kind of comment. I don't want to engage in that kind of conversation. There's no one has anything on you. All they see is they may be pissed, they may label you, but at the end of the day, they know that was integrity. You've just vibed up both yourself and that person, if they can handle it good.
Amy Lynn Durham (33:58):
Had a thought, I wonder if, in some of these cocktail parties spaces, when we are not having the courage to be disliked or the courage to speak our truth in a kind way, I wonder if it's doing ourselves a disservice at a whole other level. Because I'm wondering if men even understand what's going on internally. They're thinking, Oh, everything's fine. I'm just thinking of some specific situations throughout my life. You know? They're thinking, Oh, this is okay. This is because no one else around has had the courage. Yeah. And then here we're in this self betrayal space, and there's this whole disconnect with each other at times as to like it's really going on in these social settings. I'm unpacking all of that. I could talk about this forever.
Sandra Bargman (34:54):
No, I totally get it well. And it's, do you throw your hands up and say, okay, but you know, no. This matters, I'm just going to keep going along with it. Or do I start? Do I just start? And some woman will be watching me, and maybe the man that I'm doing it with may get it, some little light bulb might go off, or some man that has felt the authority of another man over him and been put in a compromising position, he's going to be seeing it too, and seeing it for it for the women in his life. And, you know, it's just the ripple effect of it. You got to believe in that. You got to start somewhere. It's got to be important. If we're going to see the change, we've got to be the change.
Amy Lynn Durham (35:38):
Yeah, so deep today. Okay, I want to propose a couple of things. I really feel like I need to read my favorite quote one more time to let it soak in for myself and all the listeners. And then after that, I thought it would be fun to pull a card from the edge Walker card deck, not from the creepy massacre, work journal, prom card deck, because you and I are both edge Walker facilitators. The Edge walkers are the bridge builders and the change makers of the world. And the edge Walker Arc type of change is someone that has a creative positive visualization for the future and all of those things. A lot of you out there listening, if you've worked with create magic at work. You may have taken the edge Walker profile with us or the archetypes of change, but since Sandra and I are both edge Walker facilitators, I thought it would be fun to pull an edge Walker card and kind of cool to see what we get. But before we do, I have to say this again, because I read it every day, and I know our friend Allison's like, I want this as a poster on my wall again. Go grab the love notes anthology, 2.0 we'll put it in the show notes. Sandra's chapter on ferocious compassion is in there, and my favorite quote is ferocious compassion requires that I find the courage to speak my truth, to find the courage to be disliked, to find the courage to turn and face confrontation. Ferocious compassion guides me to choose authenticity over approval, and my takeaway today, among many, is the practice and the self compassion as we build that muscle with this quote, really, with the courage to be just like the courage to speak your truth, the courage to turn and face confrontation and to choose authenticity over approval, the one of the most powerful sentences I think I've ever read. So thank you for bringing ferocious compassion to the world. I mean incredible to just bring these conversations that get people thinking unbelievable. So I'm gonna pull a card from the
(37:45):
edge Walker card deck for us of the chills, and I'm gonna do something different, Sandra, I'm gonna lay them out, and then you tell me one, two
Sandra Bargman (37:57):
or three, three. Okay, vision,
Amy Lynn Durham (38:04):
yeah, these are so magical. So they're on the five skills and the five qualities of an edge Walker, and one of them is vision, the gift of being able to see what others cannot, possibilities, trends, the future, and guidance from something greater than oneself and
Sandra Bargman (38:22):
oh my gosh, look at this
Amy Lynn Durham (38:25):
presence, presence for everyone listening. This is our message based off of this conversation. I have a gift of seeing what others cannot through presence and deep listening. I have a gift of seeing what others or not, through presence and deep listening. And this right away, I go to those moments where you were talking about taking a pause, having that presence to speak in a kind way, but the courage to be disliked and the courage to speak your truth in that presence. So amazing, amazing, yeah, yeah,
Sandra Bargman (39:06):
deep, listening to what the moment needs.
Amy Lynn Durham (39:09):
Yeah, yeah. Sandra, thank you so much for being on create magic at work. Thank you for bringing ferocious compassion to all of us to the world. Thank you for being the voice and presence coach for create magic at work. You're doing some incredible work with us, in that regard, for people that want to bring their voices to life. And so if anybody is interested, check the show notes. How else would you like people to connect with you?
Sandra Bargman (39:39):
You can go to my website. Sandra bargeman.com, I am all over social media. You can find me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram and I I'm occasionally on x, but primarily on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn and my website. And you can also. So listen to my podcast. It's called the edge of every day. It streams on all the podcast platforms, and Amy Lynn Durham has been a featured guest a few times. And can also go to my YouTube channel, Sandra bargeman on the edge of every day and check that out. Many ways of listening to the podcast. And there's also other videos on my YouTube channel that talk about some of the other work that I do, my trainings, you know, the processes that I use. And I've even got some wedding videos and some shows, some performances as well. So it's a little it's a mishmash of my multi hyphenate life.
Amy Lynn Durham (40:41):
Thank you so much for bringing up the edge of every day. I meant to mention that, if so anybody listening, Sandra's show is amazing, and it's super spicy, like this conversation today. It's called the edge of every day, and she doesn't edit it, and she just goes live with her guests. It's amazing. You can, you know, listen to me, yeah. It's so cool. So thank you again, Sandra, thank you for being such a cherished friend, and thank you for sharing this with all of the create magic at work. Listeners, thank you.
Sandra Bargman (41:10):
Oh Amy, it's a deep honor and pleasure and every sentiment right back at you.
Amy Lynn Durham (41:15):
I want to thank each and every one of you for being here as we explore what it really means to create magic at work. If this conversation resonated with you, or if someone came to mind while you were listening, share the episode with them. Help others who are looking for these types of conversations find us and don't forget to follow, subscribe, rate and review so you're notified when the next episode airs until next time. Keep edge walking, keep challenging the way things have always been done, and keep making magic at work.
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