December 10, 2024 • 64 mins
In this conversation, Maddie Jo Cowsert shares her journey from growing up in evangelical purity culture to navigating her identity and sexuality in New York City. She discusses the complexities of deconstruction, the impact of family support, and her reflections on wealth and the behavior of rich people. The dialogue highlights the shared experiences of those who have left high-control groups and the ongoing search for belonging and purpose.
Daniella's Links:
You can read all about my story in my book, Uncultured-- buy signed copies here. https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured
For more info on me:
Patreon: https://bit.ly/YTPLanding
Cult book Clubs (Advanced AND Memoirs) Annual Membership: https://bit.ly/YTPLanding
Get an autographed copy of my book, Uncultured: https://bit.ly/SignedUncultured
Get my book, Uncultured, from Bookshop.org: https://bit.ly/4g1Ufw8
Daniella’s Tiktok: https://bit.ly/3V6GK6k / KnittingCultLady
Instagram: https://bit.ly/4ePAOFK / daniellamyoung_
Unamerican video book (on Patreon): https://bit.ly/YTVideoBook
Secret Practice video book (on Patreon): https://bit.ly/3ZswGY8
Scot's Links
Connect with Scot Loyd's social media (TikTok)
Other Podcasts
Daniella's other podcast: Hey White Women
Takeaways
- Purity culture instills a sense of identity centered around marriage.
- Moving to New York City can be a significant culture shock.
- Dating in a secular environment presents unique challenges for those raised in religious settings.
- Family support plays a crucial role in the deconstruction process.
- Wealth can create a disconnect in understanding real-life struggles.
- Rich people often face their own insecurities despite their wealth.
- Generosity among the wealthy can be genuine, but the system is flawed.
- The pressure to conform to societal expectations is pervasive in both religious and secular contexts.
- Deconstruction is often a slow and painful process of self-discovery.
- Finding a new identity after leaving
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Scot Loyd (00:26)Daniela, I'm glad to see you tonight. We've got a great show lined up, and I've been looking forward to this for a while. But Daniela, how are you doing?
(00:01):
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (00:36)I'm doing great and I think great, great timing for a talk about purity culture as everyone's going off for holidays with all of their families and all of the things that have just happened.
Scot Loyd (00:41)Yeah.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (00:46)Mm-hmm.
Scot Loyd (00:48)And joining us tonight is Maddie Jo Kalsert. And did I get the last name correct?
Mattie Jo Cowsert (00:54)You did, you did, nailed it. It's very phonetic. People are afraid to say cow, but it is in the name, yeah.
Scot Loyd (00:59)Fantastic. And she is the author of God, Sex and Rich People. And I recently read this book and I can't say enough good things about the book. Maddie, I am thrilled to have you. I appreciate your generosity and appreciate you writing the book. And just as way of introduction, you grew up, you were a pastor's daughter in the heart of Jesus land, the buckle.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (01:24)Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Scot Loyd (01:29)of the Bible Belt near Branson, Missouri. And if you've ever been to Branson, it's like Las Vegas, except for Christian people, I suppose. I don't know how to say it better. But that's where that was your cultural context. And then through a series of events, you ended up in New York City. And wow, did your world expand rather quickly.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (01:33)Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
Yeah.
Scot Loyd (01:59)So welcome to the show. And on this show, yeah, we talk about cults and the culting of America. And although you and I grew up in similar situations, evangelical America, sometimes people don't want to label it culty, but I certainly grew up in a cult. I think maybe you were a little bit more mainstream Christianity than I was.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (02:02)Thank you.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Scot Loyd (02:26)But tell me a little bit about, and the folks listening, a little bit about your experience when and where you grew up.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (02:34)Yeah. So listen, something I'm really passionate about is that it's all the same. Like it's definitely a spectrum of severity for sure. Like don't get me wrong. Like I was not in a polygamous compound in Texas, right? Like I do recognize that my trauma doesn't extend to, it's not to that extent, but like
I was still getting the same messages of the FLDS women, but just in a more palatable delivery. It's not as obvious to the outside world because no, the pastor isn't taking 47 wives, one of them, like three of them, between the ages of 12 and 16. But my whole life is still centered around being married. You know what I mean? I wasn't taught to have a personality outside of be a wife.
I wasn't taught to have a sense of self outside of the orbit of a man. like, was, you know what I mean? Like, and I almost think it's more, it's more damaging. Well, I don't want to say it's more damaging, but it is harder to excavate some of the damage when the world doesn't see it as like obvious. And because then it's harder for you to recognize it as obvious, right? So anyway, all that to be said.
While I didn't grow up in a cult, like I kind of think it's all a cult. I think Christianity, my friend Sammy calls it a death cult. Like it is obsessed with death and what happens after we die. And we all are living around this fear of what happens when we die. But I did grow up sort of like the cool Christian non-denom version of evangelicals. So I did not, you know, if like,
(00:22):
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (04:14)This is
Mattie Jo Cowsert (04:27)Jerry Falwell did it. I wasn't a fundamentalist, right? But the messaging was still similar to the Falwells, whatever, but because it was so cool and approachable and my church had like a rock climbing wall and the sanctuary was a gym that also was like a basketball court and we had like spinny lights and a sick sound system and like Super Chick performed at our church. you know, it's like,
because it was all of that, no one really recognized it as fundamentalism. And they would definitely not have considered themselves fundamentalists. But when I learned more about that, I'm like, yeah, I grew up with that sort of like all around me. So yeah, and then my dad was on staff at that church up until I went away to New York, actually. Yeah, and then...
I mean, now I'm forgetting the question, but essentially I wore a purity ring. I fully bought in. It wasn't just part of my life. It was my entire life. It wasn't just part of my identity. It was my entire identity of like being a follower of Christ, being a woman of God. And yeah, I didn't ever think that that would change, right? Like I just, you your faith is unwavering. Like nothing will ever shake.
my relationship with Jesus. It might shift. I might change my mind about some things. That's okay. Well, depending on who you ask, which Bible study leader I had at the time, right? But I don't know. I never thought I would not identify as Christian. But then I moved to New York and like I say, my entire identity imploded thanks to Tinder and my Jewish roommate. And it was just sort of like
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (05:52)you
Mattie Jo Cowsert (06:19)culture shock from every angle and it forced me to question my faith, reinvent my sexuality, and the rich people part is like all while living with and working for the 1%. So just by sort of nature of living, I deconstructed it. It certainly, I didn't set out to do it. Yeah.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (06:43)if any of us set out to deconstruct, right? Like for me, I'm like, I set out to not die. And now 13 years later, you know, I'm like climbing out of the decade of deconstruction. But I want to say Maddie, so first of all, so nice to meet you. We definitely have to trade books, I think, because we will both find it like very fascinating. But as you know, what I can always bring to the table is like as one of those survivors of the bona fide
Mattie Jo Cowsert (06:45)Right?
Right.
So nice to meet you.
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (07:12)compound cult that suffered all the abuse and had all of that stuff. Like I agree with you that it's all the same, right? Like, and it doesn't matter what you call it. Like this is part of my perspective on my platform is like, look, there's a reason I wrote my story first, because as you're reading my story and like you're relating, like, yes, which is sort of backwards of how
Mattie Jo Cowsert (07:13)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. okay.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (07:42)felt in America for 20 years, knowing that I come from the extreme cult, but then relating to every event, you know, ex-vangelical or ex-Mormon, like regular kid that I talked to. And then the other thing, you know, that struck me as you were talking was like, people don't realize that like the cults do all that cool stuff too. Like, you when I got to perform with the White House, they were good at being cool.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (07:48)Mm-hmm.
(00:43):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, okay. Yeah.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (08:09)Like they put on all of this stuff, right? So like my, I left as a teenager, but my peers that stayed in, in the 2000s, they were your cool youth pastors and youth clubs and you know, all of those sort of similar stuff going on. So I just wanted to like, if you've never heard that from someone from like a, you know, quote unquote bonafide extreme cult, like yes, I 100 % agree with you that.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (08:17)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (08:38)This is all the same stuff. And I think like coercive control is coercive control. And like the only difference is time, money and impunity. Like once you're a full cult, like, you know, the Scientologists, the Children of God, the FLDS, like they've gotten as bad as they've gotten because they've had time, money and impunity. But like regular Mormons are a cult too. And they are hurting, you know, like you were
Mattie Jo Cowsert (08:44)Right.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Correct.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (09:07)damaged in very similar traumatic ways as I was growing up in the quote-unquote real cult.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (09:08)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, it's actually, I have a chapter in my book, excuse me, called Maddie Jo Meets a Mormon. And I actually had this like little rendezvous with this guy that I met in an airport who happened to be leaving the Mormon church at the time that I met him. And we stayed in touch for years and it was, yeah, it was really validating to meet him.
because I was like, I haven't met anyone who can relate to my experience yet. Like, cause in New York you are, it's not that you, it's not like I definitely have met people here now who have gone through it. But at the time, 2014, 2013, people weren't taught, like evangelical did not become a household name until 2016. It was, was Donald Trump, right? And the rise of the evangelical following and all of that, like not that the religious right didn't exist before that.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (09:45)Yeah.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (10:09)It has, right? We know that. But it wasn't really something the average person had a concept of until Donald Trump. so, you know, people in New York had no idea what I was talking about, if I talked about it, which I didn't know really how to talk about it. So when I met this Mormon guy, I was so relieved because I was like, we're speaking the same language. so to your point, yeah.
(01:04):
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (10:35)Yeah, yeah. Which is hilarious. The first time I met a Mormon, I was 15 in Mexico still in the Children of God. And it basically we were just both convincing each other that each other was in a cult. It was pretty funny. You know, to years back later be like we're not wrong. I have always had this experience where I'm like, I relate to Mormons, I relate to evangelicals. And I think part of it that I've realized is just like,
Mattie Jo Cowsert (10:47)Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (11:04)If you have any version of a childhood where you were in the world, but not of the world, right? Where I describe as like, hell, yeah, you were being held separate from the culture and what it results in, aside from all of the religious trauma, which is significant, but it was also in this feeling of like, we are basically invisible immigrants.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (11:10)Yes, we are aliens. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (11:33)like we fit, but like I'm the furthest thing from like, you know, just like a millennial white lady from Texas as I wasn't growing up in the culture, you know, and like, I personally was growing up abroad for most of my cult experience, but like, like you said, like for you moving to New York is this giant culture shock.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (11:35)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm, right.
Scot Loyd (11:58)Maddie, want to bring this back to the fact that you grew up in this Jesus culture and you were groomed to be a quote unquote woman of God. And I got to say, by the way, great job in writing the book. There's obviously there's lots of sex in the book, but there's a lot of humor in the book as well. And you talk about your relationship. I believe he was your college boyfriend.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (12:04)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Scot Loyd (12:26)And there was a lot of back and forth there, a lot of drama and trauma too. But eventually you broke that off because you wanted to pursue an acting career in New York City. And I remember one of the most hilarious lines in the entire book, dicks everywhere, dicks. You're surrounded by dicks, all kinds of dicks in New York City.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (12:29)Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Mm-hmm.
You
Ha ha!
(01:25):
Scot Loyd (12:54)Talk a little bit about that culture shock and how that started for you, if you don't
Mattie Jo Cowsert (13:01)Yeah, I think the line is like, I went through this situation with this like famous actor and I was like withholding having sex with him because I wanted him to respect me and like want to pursue me as a wife because you know, I was taught that's the only way to get a man to respect you is to not sleep with him. Anyway, we'll get there. And then I did that and he still wasn't interested.
And I was like, okay, well, if not sleeping with men isn't going to keep them interested. I said, fuck it all and quite literally fucked it all. And I just kind of went on a rampage and I had no standards, right? Which is a whole other thing. You know, I call it, eventually I developed a blueprint for boning, which is basically a sexual ethic, but like I didn't in the beginning at all. Yeah. So the culture shock of New York.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (13:58)Thank
Mattie Jo Cowsert (13:58)going from date to merry land to, you know, the city that never sleeps and never stops sleeping around. So I really genuinely thought I would marry my college boyfriend because that's just what you do. And because I loved him, like truly he was, and I think I do a good job of that in the book. Like I was genuinely in love with him. He was a great person. And I still think that.
to day. I think he was a wonderful man. I think that he was a victim of a lot of the same narratives that I was. And so, yes, there was some harm that was done, but I don't blame him for that. If he had known better, he wouldn't have. I believe that. I believe some men in the church are not like that. They are mean-spirited and they are controlling and they are manipulative. I don't think that about my college boyfriend. And I really did respect him. I thought he was so smart. And so I would have loved to have been his wife, but
He was two years older than me and I think he had a lot more perspective than I did having gotten out of college. He was going to be going to medical school. I think he was sort of having like an identity crisis himself and he sort of had the foresight to be like, this is not going to work. Like you want to move to New York and you want to pursue your dreams. That is in direct conflict with what I'm going to do, which is go to med school.
And because there was the pressure of you can't have sex until you're married and everything, would have wanted to get married right after college. And he was not going to do that. He was like, I don't think we should get married. I actually think we have a lot of incompatibility issues. So he was sort of the one who brought it to me and was like, I think we should break up. But he didn't say it.
He didn't say the breakup word. I was the one who eventually was like, know, like classic dudes. They're just like assholes until you force their hands, right? To, break up. There's like that line in friends where, where, where they pointed out to them and they're like, the girls are like, are you being all distant so that we have to break up with you? And they're like, you guys know about that? And so anyways, he, yeah, he was saying it, but not saying it, right?
And so I was the one who was finally like, you know what? I can't do this. Like you're really breaking my heart every time you bring this up. So let's just call the whole thing off. And so we broke up over Skype, RIP. And then I went to New York like the very next day, cause it was my spring break. And right following that spring break, I ended up having an affair.
with an engaged guy, I managed to another Christian in New York City who was an asshole and cheated on his fiance with me, which was just like such a pendulum. Like I call it, like that was the beginning of the necessary pendulum for me. I went from like not laying down horizontally with my boyfriend of two years to like sleeping in the same bed with an engaged guy who's a stranger in New York.
so, and then once I, then I came back to, Missouri and I had one more year of college, but I was building it all up to move to New York. And so then once I was in New York, I was very shocked to find that like men in their twenties didn't want to get married. Like it sounds ridiculous because like, like, duh. But I really thought where the single men are.
are the aspiring husbands. Like that's just how it worked in my life. So that's what I thought. I would go to New York and I would just be like, the husband options would befall me, right? And like, that is not what happened at all. And I could barely get guys to like commit to a date and none of them were looking to get married. You know, I have the whole story in my book about my first Tinder date and how that went down. So embarrassing.
And, but that was the beginning, that conversation with him, which was like, I found out he was Jewish. And then I was like, he's Jewish. my God, I can't date a Jew. And then the whole like equally yoked panic attack. And I was like, why are they, I never had even thought that there would be like a man in the world who didn't look Jewish. I was like, why are you not wearing a yarmulke? Don't you have something else you should?
be wearing that shows me you're Jewish. I just didn't know anything. And then on a first date and date to Maryland, you exchange testimonies and you tell them how many people you've kissed. I call it the litany of lust action. You have to get that off your chest before you can see if you're really compatible. And that is not what first dates in New York City were like. That would have actually been very uncomfortable had I traversed that.
Because I would try and then I'd backpedal. I'd be like, no, this is not going to go over well. And yeah, and just like none of the men were behaving in ways that would like they were not courting me. Right. And I was just like, this is so crazy. So and then on top of that, I was living with a guy who was born and raised in New York City, a Jewish guy. I was like another Jewish day walker. I was like, you don't look Jewish. And then my other roommate was from India.
and my other roommate was from Sweden. So just from, like I had more diversity in my New York apartment than I had ever experienced in all of my time in Missouri. And, you know, even like language didn't translate. Like my joke is, if you tell people in New York, you were just at a worship service, they'd be like, chill, like an ayahuasca retreat. Like they don't know you're talking about Hillsong, you know? Like there were just things that didn't translate at.
all. And even like the infamous conversation with my roommate about Mormons, I was like, I'd never date a Mormon, right? Because like Christians are just so superior to Mormons. And our beliefs are not wackadoodle at all. And then he says the lines of like, no, get it. Christians get miracles. Everyone else gets stuff they made up. And so it was like these little things. And then don't even get me started on the wealth
Scot Loyd (20:20)you
Mattie Jo Cowsert (20:24)aspect. my God. I was like, I cannot believe I remember this. This did not make it into the book, but I should have included it. I told my roommate that I tithed 10 % to the church and he was like 10%. He was like, that is a lot of money. He was like, do you calculate how much of your tax money goes to like social services in this time money that like that 10 %? That's a lot to go.
Scot Loyd (20:39)day.
(01:46):
Mattie Jo Cowsert (20:54)to an institution, right? And I was like, huh, I never thought about it. And then I really, was like 10 % of like middle income to poor people in churches all across the country is really exploitative, like incredibly exploitative. And I had never had anyone bring that up to me before. I was like, yeah, cause I was really afraid if I didn't tithe that like I would stop being blessed by the Lord.
And so even as I was not even like believing, I always set aside tithing money. It was very interesting. There was a lot that was going on that was like, I didn't really buy into it, but I was still abiding by it, right? A lot of like, you know, I didn't think that having sex before marriage made me used goods, but I did kind of think that, you know, like subconsciously. And I was treating myself as if it was true. was kind of like with tithing, like I tithed for so long.
even when I didn't really officially belong to a church, just because I was afraid if I didn't, I'd get punished in some way. And yeah, I just saw all of these really rich people living their best freaking lives and none of them were religious. I was like, yeah, yeah. I was like, I mean, they're doing great. Like, what is, what's their secret, you know?
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (22:06)All of their houses isn't keeping all of their money.
Scot Loyd (22:16)So much for the prosperity doctrine, right?
Mattie Jo Cowsert (22:19)Exactly. And then I was like, that's so fucked. Like prosperity gospel, it literally like, yeah, it is, it is exploitative of people's needs and wants. And I knew people who went to prosperity gospel churches and I judged them because I didn't think my church was like that. But now I'm like, damn, 10 % is a lot. Like if I think about how much we spend in taxes to then put another 10 % on top of that, like, my gosh.
So anyway, those were just a little bit of the culture shocks.
Scot Loyd (22:50)Yeah, and Daniela, you talked about something that I saw that you produced this week about how in a cult or a high control group or even a church like this, right? If they pass an offering plate, it's not free.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (23:05)Yeah.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (23:05)This is one of the things that riles me up so much, especially you get like AA talking about it all the time and in churches. And it's like, you don't understand the first thing about group behavior if you think that it's free, if you're passing it around, right? Like that is just social proof at work, right? Human beings are incredibly biased to, it's a survival mechanism that we have.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (23:12)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
you
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (23:35)that we decide to do a lot based in part on what everyone else around us is doing, right? If you approach a stream and everyone else is drinking from it, then probably it's safe, right? And so social proof, and then especially after we gather you together, we have you do a bunch of chanting, which makes us feel vulnerable and in sync with each other, right? And then we also makes us highly susceptible to suggestion.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (23:42)100%.
You
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (24:05)And then we pass around this offering plate, you know? And it's like, this is the kind of thing that is at work. And I do really think it's a sobering moment to think about like, how much money they're getting. You know, I did this math in my cult when I was 12 years old, right? I the minimum, like minimum number of people we have, minimum number that they have to send every month.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (24:05)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
(02:07):
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (24:33)because our call had like a minimum if your 10 % was too low for them, speaking of exploitative, right? And I was like, just based on that, it is millions of dollars, you know, and like that really, I think can be like an important wake up moment. But another thing when you were talking, it just struck me as like, it's almost the benefit of being in like the compound, right? Is that like, when you get thrown out, like, you know, you're out.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (24:35)Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (25:02)Like you just lost your whole value system, you know? But as you were talking even about the kind of, know, promiscuous behavior that like same thing that I did, you know, but it's like, because when you leave a cult, like it was a framework for how to live your life, right? And all of a sudden that framework was just gone.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (25:04)Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (25:25)The only difference between me being dropped off in Texas at 15 from my call and like you in New York City was like, I knew my framework was gone, but you were kind of like slowly losing yours. And that's a lot, I think a lot more of the like common deconstruction process. And just like, I could feel the whiplash as you were describing it, you know? It's just like.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (25:25)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. was also, I was talking about this earlier with someone about sort of the anonymity of New York was the best gift that it gave me to your point about social pressure because when no one in New York, again, my joke is like, if no one in New York gave a fuck, gave a fuck who I was, who I was fucking, and if I was saying fuck, who did I want to be?
You know, because back home, once that anonymity was imparted, I realized how much of my behavior was really based in fear of judgment from others and to be accepted by and belong, right? And then to your point with the framework, yeah, I mean, I have a couple of like big moments where it was like,
This is bullshit. This is bullshit. This is bullshit. But the minutia, I didn't really tackle a lot of that. It was much slower. So it was like I knew I was losing my framework, but I wasn't fully conscious of it. And I definitely didn't have a new framework to work off of. So I say,
I call the years that I write about in the book my rubble years because I had knocked down a bunch of shit, but I had no idea how to rebuild from it. So I was just like seeping in an atomic wasteland of my previous self with no idea how to like rebuild. And I didn't get there for a while. You know, it was probably like three solid years before I was like, I think I have to do something about this, you know, which I
also talk about in the book, but yeah. And again, it's not as obvious to everybody on the outside. And it was also particularly difficult because I had so many friends who were doing the whole evangelical married thing and they had gotten it right. They had done everything right and so they had gotten the husband. Clearly I had done something wrong for my college boyfriend to not want me, to not be chosen.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (28:00)Right.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (28:11)And I internalized that to mean that, you know, I was unlovable and God didn't, you know, want to reward me for whatever reason. And then I sort of just like dug in further on that, like, well, you know, like if you think that was bad, let me show you, you know, like it was just really interesting looking back how I was operating. And as I've written
(02:28):
I'm developing a TV show by the same title. And some of the feedback that I've gotten is that for the medium of film, you have to have an external conflict, right? Because you have to show the conflict. And I'm like, it's so interesting because so much of my experience was an internal conflict. So I'm going to have to work on that because so much of the deconstruction process is an internal conflict. It's like a fear of yourself.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (29:05)Yeah. Yeah.
Scot Loyd (29:07)And in your show, and I watched the proof of concept, by the way, it's fabulous. Great, work. But you opened that up with a story that you tell in the book with your liaison with a pop star. And it really is comical because I can relate so much. When you talk about the fact that, you know, we were conditioned, sex was this really
Mattie Jo Cowsert (29:12)Yeah. Thank you.
Mm-hmm.
Scot Loyd (29:36)big taboo, right? And anytime you talked about sex or God forbid had sex, you certainly did not talk about it. And so you get involved with this, this pop star and immediately afterwards he's hydrating or something like that. It's not really a big deal and you're laying there and you're like having all of this conflict internally. And in, in, the television show, there's, there's a woman. I'm not sure who the woman represents.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (29:38)Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (29:43)you
Mattie Jo Cowsert (29:45)Mm-hmm.
Yeah
Mm-hmm.
Scot Loyd (30:05)But she's like, she's like your, your conscience maybe. And she's like telling you how awful what you've done. And she actually has a piece of fruit at that she's destroying and she's saying, this is you, right? Yeah. But, but that, that was really eyeopening how, difficult it is for those of us that are raised in that culture to assimilate. And this is why we walk around so awkward and weird all the time.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (30:05)Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, with a pencil. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm, yeah. Yeah.
Scot Loyd (30:34)It's because we don't know what to say or how to act or what to do.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (30:38)Yeah, yeah. So I'm glad that you picked up on that juxtaposition because that was really important to me. Like he is being so casual and I'm like immediately clothing myself. Like I didn't even take my bra off for sex. Like, you know, and I go into the bathroom and I have this moment with God and even while it's happening. So we actually had to like marry a few scenes for production purposes and like time and location and all of that. But she was supposed to be
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (30:41)Thanks.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (31:07)my first boyfriend's mom is what she, you know, like I was sharing a very innocent first kiss when I was like 14 and she comes in and she does that whole thing. But really she just represents like any church lady or like for me, my abstinence teacher, because I literally got that exact demonstration in my abstinence class.
(02:49):
much of the proof of concept, I would like to be like, I'm such a brilliant writer. can't like, I came up with this amazing, no, this is just like literally how it happened. And so that was really important to me to like show, you know, there are some things that are fabricated for the point of like for storytelling purposes, but yeah, that the tomato and the pencil stabbing, that really was, that was the thing I learned.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (31:52)But Maddie, let me tell you, let me tell you this term. So there's a term for when we like all police each other and like what each other is supposed to be doing. And like, you know, in the church when you pull another adult aside and you counsel them, it is called, and we do it to ourselves, right? And it's called performative regulation.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (32:03)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Wow, yes.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (32:19)And I gift you this term because I think it's so awesome. And it's like exactly what you're describing there. And I think turning that like your self-conscious into one of the church like aunties is like, that's just like performative regulation.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (32:22)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yes, and I mean, the pop star, yeah, just so casual. Yeah, he had to humidify. He had a concert the next day.
Scot Loyd (32:47)And then he's connecting you to his friend, right? And so all of this conversation is going on immediately following sex. And you nail that beautifully because that is exactly how all of us that move away from that culture, we feel, especially about the subject of sex. And of course, it's other subjects as well, but that seems to be the most obvious one.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (32:52)Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. I mean, to be clear, I don't think that like how he behaved was quote unquote normal at all. I think it was massively douchey. Like even given all of the experiences I've had since, I'm like, no, he was a total tool. But in how he behaved in that moment, I have heard from others he has not evolved much. So sometimes it just happens that way.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (33:41)In my head it's just there. In my head it's just
Mattie Jo Cowsert (33:44)Like, because it's not John Mayer. It's not that cool. The best thing about this pop singer, I can't, I can't like reveal, reveal his identity, but like the best thing about him is that like he's one of those pop singers that everyone knows, but no one knows his name, which is honestly the best karma for him because like he's successful, but no one really knows. Like no one knows who he is, but they probably know his songs. You know what I mean?
But anyways, yeah, the how to behave in
sexual situations, let alone how to like carry oneself in a way that felt empowering and confident and assured. Like, forget it. You just, I mean, for so much of like my early days of having sex, I was just sort of going off of what I thought everyone else was doing. And then eventually I learned everyone else is also having really bad sex, like, which is also a problem. Like, why is
And everyone's just sort of playing it off like, ha ha, LOL, drunk sex again. And I'm like, it's not funny actually. It's like very bad that we're all just creating normalcy around being intoxicated for sex with men. By the way, for women, that's like very unsafe. But it was things like that that I didn't feel at the time that I could speak to. But over time, I started to be like, I actually think this is pretty fucked up.
Maybe we should change this cultural norm. And then right around the time that I was sort of having that awakening, Donald Trump came on the scene and I was like, are you serious? Like all this stuff that I feel like I've been unpacking is now on my daily news brief every day. And it was just like having to relive it and sort of like an I told you so. Like I had been talking about this for a while and like,
Scot Loyd (35:36)Yeah.
(03:10):
Mattie Jo Cowsert (35:47)I don't know, people just thought it was like, funny, whatever it is funny, like I write in a humorous way, but it's also very dangerous. And I think we see that now, right? It's very dangerous because it's so insidious and it like creeps and crawls through all of culture. Yeah.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (35:47)No, people just have to.
Yeah. Well, I just want to say like one thing that's really been fascinating to me as you're talking is like, you know, when we were saying earlier, like, it's all the same. It's like, we had the same trauma, we acted it out in very similar ways. No, it was coming from a different place, right? Like yours was purity culture, and mine was pedophilia culture.
Scot Loyd (36:05)And something, go ahead, Daniela.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (36:21)Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (36:29)But like, it's still, right? Being a young child, being a developing human being and like having your whole world be about sex and all of these things, you know, is just, it's so marking of you in such a way. And, you know, as you were talking, like it's so funny, because I had the opposite feeling. I was like, no, I am self-assured. I'm done with that craziness. I own my body. I make the choices.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (36:40)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (36:58)And then it wasn't, I'm actually a grown adult that's a lot more healed and I'm going back and writing about some of that stuff that I'm like, no, I was kind of participating in this same risky behavior. And anyways, just like, this parallel is very strong to me and I like appreciate you writing the book that like talks about that stuff, right? Because that's hard to do and it's hard to like put yourself out there like that.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (37:12)Yeah.
Yeah.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (37:28)but this is one of the reasons why when people are deconstructing, now in my cult book plot, we do like 12 cult memoirs in a row, but it's like to notice these patterns and see that it's like, yeah, these themes, these tactics that they use on us are very similar. I think, I mean, across the board, cult survivors have just said, like when Donald Trump won, it was just like so triggering. And so, you know.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (37:28)Mm-hmm.
and themes. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's, it is. That's the word. Insidious.
Scot Loyd (38:06)Maddie, you, there's a particular quote that I pulled out here and you use the language of social reward and you describe it as you kept seeking a God of love and I hoped was still there for me. And I think a lot of what those of us that are coming out of these types of cultures, what we end up feeling is that sense of
(03:31):
Mattie Jo Cowsert (38:11)Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Scot Loyd (38:35)Where do I belong? What is my purpose? Because so much of our identity, and I was a pastor as well, and my identity was tied up in that. And then once I moved away from that, I'm like, what the hell do I do with my life now? And it was especially complicated because a lot of this was happening in my 40s and 50s and not as a younger person. So talk a little bit about that.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (38:37)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Scot Loyd (39:04)aspect of it. And also, by the way, I've got to say something, and I think I pointed this out to you early on. Your experience that I think is different from most people's experience is that your family is awesome. Like your brother and your mother and your father and the way that they supported you on this journey, especially your brother and the advice that he was able to give you, the wisdom that he was able to share with you.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (39:19)yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Scot Loyd (39:33)I know for most of us that is something that an experience that we don't have. So talk a little bit about the pressures to first of all, when you're moving away from that, probably the reason that you were still holding on to a lot of these residual ideas was you wanted to please your family and you didn't want to upset those relationships. I know that's been true in my case.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (39:38)Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I was going to say, I'm conducting research right now talking to women who have been evangelical married and evangelical divorced. And my God, shit is dark. I really do. like, I told a girl last night, or a woman last night, I was like, I know it's all the same as we've been discussing Daniela, but I truly believe they had it worse than I did because they were marred in these marriages for
15 plus years, right? And the only thing that is like, or the one thing that's not a renewable resource in life is time. And they lost that time to such, to lies, just straight up lies. So, and many of them, since leaving the marriages have not had support from their parents. And so many of them have said, thank you for sharing your story because you do have support from your parents.
And that is something many of us, can never be public about our stories because it would cost us everything. And it's already costing them so much. Right. And so I was lucky in that. And I talk about this also in the book, I like that's my catchphrase. I talk about this in the book, but at home, I learned a God of love and compassion. And so like, that's what my parents taught me. So ultimately,
this God is why I deconstructed because what I was learning from the faith practice was directly in conflict with that in the larger world, right? These things work as long as you keep it in a tight container, but the second you go outside of that, it all kind of, it all blows up pretty quickly. And so I did have this want to, and I still do, I still had this
like want to be close to God in this God of love and compassion that I felt I had had a deep divine connection to at a very young age, like when I was like 14, you know, I talk about it like at theater camp is when I felt like I was really one with God and and I didn't have that language at the time or like when I visited New York City for the first time. That's when I felt like really one with God. And so I felt like I had had these divine experiences and that connection.
So I hoped, I really hoped that I would still have access to that. The problem was the way that I had learned to have access to it and what I believed is that it was that I had to be a Christian. I had to believe Jesus was the Messiah. I had to live out these certain morals or I would no longer have access to that God. So I was sad about that, you know, and that was really, that was a grieving process. I was grieving my relationship to
something that I thought was very real, but thought was also now conditional, you know? And in terms of my family, I was very lucky in that, like I said, I learned a God of love and compassion. So as I started speaking out publicly about a lot of this, my parents were sort of nodding their heads in agreement. I don't think they realized how bad it was until my older sister, who the book is,
(03:52):
dedicated to, she was really going off the rails, like deep in the dogma and dogmatic lifestyle and just like ministry group after ministry group after ministry group. And she was miserable. And she was super judgmental. Like my parents were like, what happened to our daughter? And so seeing her kind of like go off the rails like that, they were like, what have we done?
Like what did we introduce her to that like got her to this place? Cause that's not how my parents were. Not that they didn't also, like they taught us to not have sex until we were married and all of that. I'm not gonna, you know, and to what we were discussing before we pressed record, I definitely had pressures to look a certain way or men would not like me. You know, I think no woman is exempt from that kind of narrative, but it's like particularly bad in the church because your whole life is about being someone's wife and being chosen. So you really better like,
And then if you're not like sexy enough and they cheat on you, it's your fault, like all of that, right? So I definitely still got messages about, you need to be, you need to look a certain way to be attractive and things like that. They weren't perfect, but they definitely weren't telling me that it would be my fault if a guy cheated on me. I want to be clear about that. It was nothing, nothing that bad, but I did still have a lot of pressure to like,
look and be a certain size. And it all went back to being like chosen by men. But my parents got really screwed over by our church that we were part of for like 15 years. And my dad basically got like unjustifiably pushed out. And once that happened, my mom, being the woman she is who never wanted to be a preacher's wife to begin with, she was like, you got to figure something else out.
I am not spending the rest of my life. What years we have left being a preacher's wife. This is unstable. You don't have retirement. I want to retire soon. I want to travel. I don't want to do this anymore. And so my dad took a total career pivot. He was selling insurance for $35,000 a year or something in his 50s. And now he has an amazing job and works in education.
He works for the Missouri, he works for a grant program through Mizzou that helps enrichment for schools all over Missouri. anyway, so I was lucky in that right as I was going through a lot of my stuff, my parents got really burned by the church and Donald Trump happened and they were appalled and they were like, I cannot believe this. And so,
Scot Loyd (46:09)Yeah.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (46:12)Thank you.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (46:13)I did, and look, listen, I don't want to call people stupid, but I have smart parents. My parents valued education and they taught us to think critically. I don't think most parents care about that with their kids. They care about obedience. They care about, need to make us look good. That was not my parents' parenting ethic at all. My parents' parenting ethic was,
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (46:31)Yes.
Yeah.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (46:39)We teach you to be the best humans you can be so that you can contribute well to society. And part of that is questioning, being curious, learning how to gather knowledge and thinking critically. and imparting compassion, always cheering for the underdog. Like these are things that my parents lived out in their lives. So it was easier to like emulate. But yeah, I know not everybody is that lucky.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (47:06)This this thing that you said I think is really important because that is kind of the difference. It's like the cult sells you this idea, right? This idea of perfectly groomed children standing in a row, never speaking out, you know, and I
Mattie Jo Cowsert (47:17)Hehe.
Yes.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (47:26)I got the daughter I deserved, right? Like I got the daughter that refused to breathe for seven minutes, because she just wasn't gonna be rushed, okay? And she's been that kid since day one. And my husband and I always joke that like the hardest part of parenting is that she doesn't have a good soldier mode to snap into. You know, meanwhile, I think that like the almost like superpower that all of us called babies have is the, can do it with a broom.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (47:28)Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (47:55)heart, you know, no matter what is going on, when it is showtime, we can go, right? And it's fake. And it's nasty. And it's bad for us. But it's also like this almost like survival skill that we learned, because we weren't being judged on, you know, so like when you're being raised in a cult or by this like works and obedience, like, that's the opposite of unconditional love. And you, you were getting
Mattie Jo Cowsert (47:56)Yes!
(04:13):
That is such a good point, yeah.
Yeah.
Yes, exactly.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (48:24)unconditional love from your parents, right, which means they're gonna have to like reaffirm you as individuals. And so by the way, it doesn't surprise me that your dad eventually ran afoul, right? Because that's one of the things about cults too, is like the cult never cares more about operational success than about control, right? Like the control is part of the point.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (48:27)Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (48:52)So even if you have like a loving, affirming leader, but he's not controlling people enough, like you said, it all falls apart, right? If you get too far outside of that. But also just so much credit to your parents, right? Like I also am very lucky that I had a mother who like affirmed me being me, you know, like through this deconstruction journey. And it makes a huge difference. I mean,
Mattie Jo Cowsert (48:52)Yeah.
That is such a good point. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (49:21)I have so many, and we're gonna have so many listeners now that like, it's almost like they vicariously want to hear your story because they're never gonna get that kind of support from their parents.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (49:30)Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, and it is heartbreaking. I almost, it's like I can understand it, but I can't really understand it. But I do, I mean, I made a video about this. Like if your definition of love is so conditional and wrathful, which is God, which is the Christian God, right? Like,
Scot Loyd (49:54)Yeah.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (49:58)its core it is do what I say or I will burn you in hell believe how I said or I'll burn you in hell for eternity for eternity then if that is love that is your definition of love then no wonder so many parents can stomach their gay kids committing suicide because they're like no well if I if I would have accepted him and actually loved him that would have been worse
than them committing suicide. Like the disconnect is insane to me, but I get it because like I was in it. So I understand that. The most loving thing you can do is like convert someone.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (50:37)Yeah. I saw this meme.
I saw this meme that said the Christian asked the atheist, so what if you die and God is real? And the atheist said, I'll give him a chance to apologize. This is kind of the realization I had, right? Because I was just thrown out at 15, right? So I was just like, well, I never really believed at all anyways, right? I'm going off. But then eventually, you still have to come back and ask yourself, what do you believe and what do you everything? And you have that what if.
(04:34):
Scot Loyd (50:51)That's great.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (50:57)Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (51:12)right? Because that's again, we're raised in fear if you don't do right. So what if and eventually I was like, if I die, after everything I have suffered in the name of God and being a generally good person, like, and my biggest sin is I didn't believe in you and you're gonna throw me in hell for everything I've suffered in your name. Like, I don't I don't want that God right? Like
Mattie Jo Cowsert (51:25)Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. my God. Yeah. My joke is if heaven is full of evangelicals and Donald Trump and hell is like the fab five and like Lady Gaga, send me straight to hell in a two-piece, baby. Belly button out and all. It's hot down there. Yeah.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (51:59)That is great. That is great.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (52:03)And then in terms of my brother, I know we have to wrap up in a few, but in terms of my brother, I did, got lucky in that Derek, well, I just said his real name. He's Eddie in the book. He's much older than me, so he had kind of gone through a lot of this already. And he kind of got the black sheep thing out of the way for me. I have to give him so much gratitude for that.
Scot Loyd (52:14)Ha
Mattie Jo Cowsert (52:29)Because he just like bucked the system so much with my parents that based on like his him, I was like, there is literally nothing I can do to break my parents. Like he has been a shithead and has contended so much of their teachings and whatever. And they still love him. They love him so much. And so I was just kind of like, great. And I knew he could be, you know, a resource. And he was he was an invaluable resource to me.
Scot Loyd (52:59)It is a fantastic book and I encourage everyone to read it. And Maddie, I'm going to ask you this as we conclude. You have entire chapters dedicated to your experiences with rich people. one of the early stories that one of the early jobs that you had, were basically, you basically just returned this rich woman's shit all the time. It's like you went to the store and it's like she wanted you to return it.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (53:13)Yeah.
Scot Loyd (53:29)The question you can tell that story if you'd like but the question is what did you discover about rich people and and you know Generally where all of us are raised in the world. We think of rich people as someone You know who drives a nice car lives in a nice house, but you were actually around rich rich people. Yes
Mattie Jo Cowsert (53:32)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rich people. Yeah. Yeah, I say it a bit tongue in cheek because when you call rich people, rich people, they get very uncomfortable. It's like, I think they want to be called something else. And I'm like, well, you just are. Like that is what you are, you know, like whatever. But yeah, no, I do have strong feelings about it because I'm like, no, you think like this guy in Texas who like has a nice house and
has a nice car and like can send his three kids to private Christian school and whatever they're gonna go to. They're gonna go to UT, blah, blah. No, that guy is not rich. I literally work for the 1%, like the 1 % to the 0.01%. These motherfuckers are rich and it has, if anything, made me far more liberal. Because I'm just like, no one needs this much money. Anyway, no.
But it is complex. will say like what are things that I've learned from rich people and about rich people? At our core, like people are people. And yes, while it looks, it appears very different in what they are going through. And you kind of like, there are so many times in my life and my jobs where I've just had to like nod my head and be like, this is a rich people problem. Like, this is not a real problem. This is a rich people problem. But
At our core, everyone is still asking the same questions. What is my purpose? Why am I here? And for people who have everything, they, especially if it's not like their wealth, like what they worked for necessarily. So say it's like the spouse of the person who made the money or the kids of the person who made the money.
(04:55):
They live in a deeply insecure place because they know none of it was actually earned, that they're never going to have to really struggle. And there's really, in my opinion, there's no satisfaction without struggle because the whole reason you value something is because you know what it took to get there. So I think it's...
It's just a lot of insecurity that is expressing itself and really messed up power dynamics and structure. I will also say that a lot of rich people are so generous and so kind and so supportive and they just want to do whatever they can to help people. And they are, they're like driving the arts. are, you know, any, like they,
they do have their hands in lots of things, right? And so that was really fun to learn. know, like, wow, actually, like someone having money doesn't make them an asshole. They were just an asshole and they either have money or they don't have money, you know? And, but I also, in terms of like what I've learned, there are definitely things that are cultural.
I don't know what it is, like, and this isn't all, but a lot of rich people are just like, their kids' lives are like very, very, very scheduled all the time. Like there's no room for play, pretending, entertaining yourself. Like they are just constantly controlled and like overlooked and overlooked meaning like surveillance essentially.
Scot Loyd (57:38)Yeah.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (57:39)And they, don't know, like, I think one thing that always got on my nerves as like a childcare provider is I was like, these kids just expect to be talked to constantly. Like, why can't they just play by themselves for one second? Like, I played by myself so much as a kid, you know? But, yeah, exactly.
Scot Loyd (57:58)Yeah. It's because we didn't have any money. We didn't have anything to play with.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (58:04)so there are definitely like nuanced cultural things like that. you know, I could, I could go on and on, but you know, I've signed NDAs and things. but I, I just think at the end of the day, like people are people. And when you find, when you are who you are and you're honest about who you are, you'll find your people. like actually along the way, like.
I've spent so many years on the Upper West Side working for various families. So now when I walk around the Upper West Side, I run into families all the time. Maddie Jo, we've missed you. And their kids are like teenagers now. And I've gotten to really be a part of these kids' lives. And so I don't know. I do feel like a lot of those families became my New York family. I do feel that, but there has also been plenty of like...
my God, no one needs this much money. You know, that's not every family that I've worked for, but there are some families that I'm just like, why and how? Like I'm just genuinely curious how. Yeah. So.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (59:11)Yeah.
Scot Loyd (59:18)And which is going to be covered probably by Daniela and in your forthcoming book, The Culting of America, right? Because capitalism is a big cult, is it not?
Mattie Jo Cowsert (59:27)Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (59:28)I mean, yeah, this is part of the this is part of the problem is that, you know, I think, actually, I came to it in my chapter about us versus them mentality is that with America, the problem is we are new is better and old. More is always better. Bigger is always better. Right. So it's just this like, you know,
Mattie Jo Cowsert (59:33)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (59:53)Another thing I heard recently was like, if it was anything other than money, we would call that hoarding and classify that as like a mental disorder, right? When you're talking about billionaires and mega millionaires. It's just like, if that was any other thing in the world, even like physical actual gold, it would be like this problem.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (59:59)Mm-hmm.
Great.
(05:16):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And I just, can't even understand like with how much I know things cost, right? Like we know things cost a lot, like inflation, even with that, I'm like, I really think if everyone made like $500,000 a year, everyone would be doing more than okay. Like I don't understand why anyone would need any more money than that. Like,
I just don't, like even at my most successful, I'm like, I don't think that I will like, what more could I possibly do other than, I don't know, build, like start other foundations, whatever. But then it's like, again, they all have these like charities and stuff that they start because it's a tax write-off. And it's just like, I mean, I'm glad that it is going into something, but like, I don't know that we need privatized charity in that way. Like that being the main form of social,
social support in our country is reliance on super wealthy people for their charitable philanthropic services. man, that's not great.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (1:01:25)opposite. Yeah, that's the opposite of a developed nation.
Scot Loyd (1:01:28)Yeah.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (1:01:29)Yeah. And to be fair, I don't think these people are bad people. I really don't. But it is a genuine question of mine of I just, why? Why do you need x, like, 7 to 10 multimillion dollar properties that you only ever spend max two months at a time in? I can't understand it.
Maybe it's because I was raised by a preacher and a teacher.
Scot Loyd (1:02:01)It's a great book. encourage everyone to read it. God, sex, and rich people. Maddie, if someone wants to support you, follow you, buy the book. How do they do that?
Mattie Jo Cowsert (1:02:03)Thank you.
So follow me at MaddieJoKowsert on Instagram. I hate that this is a thing, but like follows do matter. I've been like ranting about it on my stories recently, but follows do matter. I also just, and on my website, maddiejokowsert.com backslash book, there's the option there. If you want to order a book,
a book, you can order it directly from me. Just shoot me a DM on Instagram and we'll get that arranged. Also, I just recently launched a free five-day email course called A Guide to Post-Purity Culture Dating. Crap, I don't even know what it's called. It's Dating After Purity Culture. I just launched it. I just finished it. It's datingafterpurityculture.com. Yeah, it's a guide to
getting great dates and dick coming out of purity culture. And it's free. So you can sign up there, datingafterpurityculture.com. And yeah, I think those are the essentials.
Scot Loyd (1:03:20)Fantastic. I know we just scratched the surface. Hopefully we can have you back sometime and continue the conversation. It's been great, Maddie. Thank you so much. Follow Daniela as well to all of our listeners. Buy her book, Uncultured. It's a great read as well. And thank you all for joining us. And until next time, I'm Scott Lloyd for Daniela Mestenec Young. We'll see you on the next episode of Cults and the Culting of America.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (1:03:24)Yes!
Thank you so much.
Yes, I will.
Scot Loyd (00:26)Daniela, I'm glad to see you tonight. We've got a great show lined up, and I've been looking forward to this for a while. But Daniela, how are you doing?
(00:01):
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (00:36)I'm doing great and I think great, great timing for a talk about purity culture as everyone's going off for holidays with all of their families and all of the things that have just happened.
Scot Loyd (00:41)Yeah.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (00:46)Mm-hmm.
Scot Loyd (00:48)And joining us tonight is Maddie Jo Kalsert. And did I get the last name correct?
Mattie Jo Cowsert (00:54)You did, you did, nailed it. It's very phonetic. People are afraid to say cow, but it is in the name, yeah.
Scot Loyd (00:59)Fantastic. And she is the author of God, Sex and Rich People. And I recently read this book and I can't say enough good things about the book. Maddie, I am thrilled to have you. I appreciate your generosity and appreciate you writing the book. And just as way of introduction, you grew up, you were a pastor's daughter in the heart of Jesus land, the buckle.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (01:24)Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Scot Loyd (01:29)of the Bible Belt near Branson, Missouri. And if you've ever been to Branson, it's like Las Vegas, except for Christian people, I suppose. I don't know how to say it better. But that's where that was your cultural context. And then through a series of events, you ended up in New York City. And wow, did your world expand rather quickly.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (01:33)Mm-hmm.
Yeah,
Yeah.
Scot Loyd (01:59)So welcome to the show. And on this show, yeah, we talk about cults and the culting of America. And although you and I grew up in similar situations, evangelical America, sometimes people don't want to label it culty, but I certainly grew up in a cult. I think maybe you were a little bit more mainstream Christianity than I was.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (02:02)Thank you.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Scot Loyd (02:26)But tell me a little bit about, and the folks listening, a little bit about your experience when and where you grew up.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (02:34)Yeah. So listen, something I'm really passionate about is that it's all the same. Like it's definitely a spectrum of severity for sure. Like don't get me wrong. Like I was not in a polygamous compound in Texas, right? Like I do recognize that my trauma doesn't extend to, it's not to that extent, but like
I was still getting the same messages of the FLDS women, but just in a more palatable delivery. It's not as obvious to the outside world because no, the pastor isn't taking 47 wives, one of them, like three of them, between the ages of 12 and 16. But my whole life is still centered around being married. You know what I mean? I wasn't taught to have a personality outside of be a wife.
I wasn't taught to have a sense of self outside of the orbit of a man. like, was, you know what I mean? Like, and I almost think it's more, it's more damaging. Well, I don't want to say it's more damaging, but it is harder to excavate some of the damage when the world doesn't see it as like obvious. And because then it's harder for you to recognize it as obvious, right? So anyway, all that to be said.
While I didn't grow up in a cult, like I kind of think it's all a cult. I think Christianity, my friend Sammy calls it a death cult. Like it is obsessed with death and what happens after we die. And we all are living around this fear of what happens when we die. But I did grow up sort of like the cool Christian non-denom version of evangelicals. So I did not, you know, if like,
(00:22):
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (04:14)This is
Mattie Jo Cowsert (04:27)Jerry Falwell did it. I wasn't a fundamentalist, right? But the messaging was still similar to the Falwells, whatever, but because it was so cool and approachable and my church had like a rock climbing wall and the sanctuary was a gym that also was like a basketball court and we had like spinny lights and a sick sound system and like Super Chick performed at our church. you know, it's like,
because it was all of that, no one really recognized it as fundamentalism. And they would definitely not have considered themselves fundamentalists. But when I learned more about that, I'm like, yeah, I grew up with that sort of like all around me. So yeah, and then my dad was on staff at that church up until I went away to New York, actually. Yeah, and then...
I mean, now I'm forgetting the question, but essentially I wore a purity ring. I fully bought in. It wasn't just part of my life. It was my entire life. It wasn't just part of my identity. It was my entire identity of like being a follower of Christ, being a woman of God. And yeah, I didn't ever think that that would change, right? Like I just, you your faith is unwavering. Like nothing will ever shake.
my relationship with Jesus. It might shift. I might change my mind about some things. That's okay. Well, depending on who you ask, which Bible study leader I had at the time, right? But I don't know. I never thought I would not identify as Christian. But then I moved to New York and like I say, my entire identity imploded thanks to Tinder and my Jewish roommate. And it was just sort of like
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (05:52)you
Mattie Jo Cowsert (06:19)culture shock from every angle and it forced me to question my faith, reinvent my sexuality, and the rich people part is like all while living with and working for the 1%. So just by sort of nature of living, I deconstructed it. It certainly, I didn't set out to do it. Yeah.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (06:43)if any of us set out to deconstruct, right? Like for me, I'm like, I set out to not die. And now 13 years later, you know, I'm like climbing out of the decade of deconstruction. But I want to say Maddie, so first of all, so nice to meet you. We definitely have to trade books, I think, because we will both find it like very fascinating. But as you know, what I can always bring to the table is like as one of those survivors of the bona fide
Mattie Jo Cowsert (06:45)Right?
Right.
So nice to meet you.
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (07:12)compound cult that suffered all the abuse and had all of that stuff. Like I agree with you that it's all the same, right? Like, and it doesn't matter what you call it. Like this is part of my perspective on my platform is like, look, there's a reason I wrote my story first, because as you're reading my story and like you're relating, like, yes, which is sort of backwards of how
Mattie Jo Cowsert (07:13)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. okay.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (07:42)felt in America for 20 years, knowing that I come from the extreme cult, but then relating to every event, you know, ex-vangelical or ex-Mormon, like regular kid that I talked to. And then the other thing, you know, that struck me as you were talking was like, people don't realize that like the cults do all that cool stuff too. Like, you when I got to perform with the White House, they were good at being cool.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (07:48)Mm-hmm.
(00:43):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah, okay. Yeah.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (08:09)Like they put on all of this stuff, right? So like my, I left as a teenager, but my peers that stayed in, in the 2000s, they were your cool youth pastors and youth clubs and you know, all of those sort of similar stuff going on. So I just wanted to like, if you've never heard that from someone from like a, you know, quote unquote bonafide extreme cult, like yes, I 100 % agree with you that.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (08:17)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (08:38)This is all the same stuff. And I think like coercive control is coercive control. And like the only difference is time, money and impunity. Like once you're a full cult, like, you know, the Scientologists, the Children of God, the FLDS, like they've gotten as bad as they've gotten because they've had time, money and impunity. But like regular Mormons are a cult too. And they are hurting, you know, like you were
Mattie Jo Cowsert (08:44)Right.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Correct.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (09:07)damaged in very similar traumatic ways as I was growing up in the quote-unquote real cult.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (09:08)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, it's actually, I have a chapter in my book, excuse me, called Maddie Jo Meets a Mormon. And I actually had this like little rendezvous with this guy that I met in an airport who happened to be leaving the Mormon church at the time that I met him. And we stayed in touch for years and it was, yeah, it was really validating to meet him.
because I was like, I haven't met anyone who can relate to my experience yet. Like, cause in New York you are, it's not that you, it's not like I definitely have met people here now who have gone through it. But at the time, 2014, 2013, people weren't taught, like evangelical did not become a household name until 2016. It was, was Donald Trump, right? And the rise of the evangelical following and all of that, like not that the religious right didn't exist before that.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (09:45)Yeah.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (10:09)It has, right? We know that. But it wasn't really something the average person had a concept of until Donald Trump. so, you know, people in New York had no idea what I was talking about, if I talked about it, which I didn't know really how to talk about it. So when I met this Mormon guy, I was so relieved because I was like, we're speaking the same language. so to your point, yeah.
(01:04):
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (10:35)Yeah, yeah. Which is hilarious. The first time I met a Mormon, I was 15 in Mexico still in the Children of God. And it basically we were just both convincing each other that each other was in a cult. It was pretty funny. You know, to years back later be like we're not wrong. I have always had this experience where I'm like, I relate to Mormons, I relate to evangelicals. And I think part of it that I've realized is just like,
Mattie Jo Cowsert (10:47)Yeah. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (11:04)If you have any version of a childhood where you were in the world, but not of the world, right? Where I describe as like, hell, yeah, you were being held separate from the culture and what it results in, aside from all of the religious trauma, which is significant, but it was also in this feeling of like, we are basically invisible immigrants.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (11:10)Yes, we are aliens. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (11:33)like we fit, but like I'm the furthest thing from like, you know, just like a millennial white lady from Texas as I wasn't growing up in the culture, you know, and like, I personally was growing up abroad for most of my cult experience, but like, like you said, like for you moving to New York is this giant culture shock.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (11:35)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm, right.
Scot Loyd (11:58)Maddie, want to bring this back to the fact that you grew up in this Jesus culture and you were groomed to be a quote unquote woman of God. And I got to say, by the way, great job in writing the book. There's obviously there's lots of sex in the book, but there's a lot of humor in the book as well. And you talk about your relationship. I believe he was your college boyfriend.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (12:04)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Scot Loyd (12:26)And there was a lot of back and forth there, a lot of drama and trauma too. But eventually you broke that off because you wanted to pursue an acting career in New York City. And I remember one of the most hilarious lines in the entire book, dicks everywhere, dicks. You're surrounded by dicks, all kinds of dicks in New York City.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (12:29)Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Mm-hmm.
You
Ha ha!
(01:25):
Scot Loyd (12:54)Talk a little bit about that culture shock and how that started for you, if you don't
Mattie Jo Cowsert (13:01)Yeah, I think the line is like, I went through this situation with this like famous actor and I was like withholding having sex with him because I wanted him to respect me and like want to pursue me as a wife because you know, I was taught that's the only way to get a man to respect you is to not sleep with him. Anyway, we'll get there. And then I did that and he still wasn't interested.
And I was like, okay, well, if not sleeping with men isn't going to keep them interested. I said, fuck it all and quite literally fucked it all. And I just kind of went on a rampage and I had no standards, right? Which is a whole other thing. You know, I call it, eventually I developed a blueprint for boning, which is basically a sexual ethic, but like I didn't in the beginning at all. Yeah. So the culture shock of New York.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (13:58)Thank
Mattie Jo Cowsert (13:58)going from date to merry land to, you know, the city that never sleeps and never stops sleeping around. So I really genuinely thought I would marry my college boyfriend because that's just what you do. And because I loved him, like truly he was, and I think I do a good job of that in the book. Like I was genuinely in love with him. He was a great person. And I still think that.
to day. I think he was a wonderful man. I think that he was a victim of a lot of the same narratives that I was. And so, yes, there was some harm that was done, but I don't blame him for that. If he had known better, he wouldn't have. I believe that. I believe some men in the church are not like that. They are mean-spirited and they are controlling and they are manipulative. I don't think that about my college boyfriend. And I really did respect him. I thought he was so smart. And so I would have loved to have been his wife, but
He was two years older than me and I think he had a lot more perspective than I did having gotten out of college. He was going to be going to medical school. I think he was sort of having like an identity crisis himself and he sort of had the foresight to be like, this is not going to work. Like you want to move to New York and you want to pursue your dreams. That is in direct conflict with what I'm going to do, which is go to med school.
And because there was the pressure of you can't have sex until you're married and everything, would have wanted to get married right after college. And he was not going to do that. He was like, I don't think we should get married. I actually think we have a lot of incompatibility issues. So he was sort of the one who brought it to me and was like, I think we should break up. But he didn't say it.
He didn't say the breakup word. I was the one who eventually was like, know, like classic dudes. They're just like assholes until you force their hands, right? To, break up. There's like that line in friends where, where, where they pointed out to them and they're like, the girls are like, are you being all distant so that we have to break up with you? And they're like, you guys know about that? And so anyways, he, yeah, he was saying it, but not saying it, right?
And so I was the one who was finally like, you know what? I can't do this. Like you're really breaking my heart every time you bring this up. So let's just call the whole thing off. And so we broke up over Skype, RIP. And then I went to New York like the very next day, cause it was my spring break. And right following that spring break, I ended up having an affair.
with an engaged guy, I managed to another Christian in New York City who was an asshole and cheated on his fiance with me, which was just like such a pendulum. Like I call it, like that was the beginning of the necessary pendulum for me. I went from like not laying down horizontally with my boyfriend of two years to like sleeping in the same bed with an engaged guy who's a stranger in New York.
so, and then once I, then I came back to, Missouri and I had one more year of college, but I was building it all up to move to New York. And so then once I was in New York, I was very shocked to find that like men in their twenties didn't want to get married. Like it sounds ridiculous because like, like, duh. But I really thought where the single men are.
are the aspiring husbands. Like that's just how it worked in my life. So that's what I thought. I would go to New York and I would just be like, the husband options would befall me, right? And like, that is not what happened at all. And I could barely get guys to like commit to a date and none of them were looking to get married. You know, I have the whole story in my book about my first Tinder date and how that went down. So embarrassing.
And, but that was the beginning, that conversation with him, which was like, I found out he was Jewish. And then I was like, he's Jewish. my God, I can't date a Jew. And then the whole like equally yoked panic attack. And I was like, why are they, I never had even thought that there would be like a man in the world who didn't look Jewish. I was like, why are you not wearing a yarmulke? Don't you have something else you should?
be wearing that shows me you're Jewish. I just didn't know anything. And then on a first date and date to Maryland, you exchange testimonies and you tell them how many people you've kissed. I call it the litany of lust action. You have to get that off your chest before you can see if you're really compatible. And that is not what first dates in New York City were like. That would have actually been very uncomfortable had I traversed that.
Because I would try and then I'd backpedal. I'd be like, no, this is not going to go over well. And yeah, and just like none of the men were behaving in ways that would like they were not courting me. Right. And I was just like, this is so crazy. So and then on top of that, I was living with a guy who was born and raised in New York City, a Jewish guy. I was like another Jewish day walker. I was like, you don't look Jewish. And then my other roommate was from India.
and my other roommate was from Sweden. So just from, like I had more diversity in my New York apartment than I had ever experienced in all of my time in Missouri. And, you know, even like language didn't translate. Like my joke is, if you tell people in New York, you were just at a worship service, they'd be like, chill, like an ayahuasca retreat. Like they don't know you're talking about Hillsong, you know? Like there were just things that didn't translate at.
all. And even like the infamous conversation with my roommate about Mormons, I was like, I'd never date a Mormon, right? Because like Christians are just so superior to Mormons. And our beliefs are not wackadoodle at all. And then he says the lines of like, no, get it. Christians get miracles. Everyone else gets stuff they made up. And so it was like these little things. And then don't even get me started on the wealth
Scot Loyd (20:20)you
Mattie Jo Cowsert (20:24)aspect. my God. I was like, I cannot believe I remember this. This did not make it into the book, but I should have included it. I told my roommate that I tithed 10 % to the church and he was like 10%. He was like, that is a lot of money. He was like, do you calculate how much of your tax money goes to like social services in this time money that like that 10 %? That's a lot to go.
Scot Loyd (20:39)day.
(01:46):
Mattie Jo Cowsert (20:54)to an institution, right? And I was like, huh, I never thought about it. And then I really, was like 10 % of like middle income to poor people in churches all across the country is really exploitative, like incredibly exploitative. And I had never had anyone bring that up to me before. I was like, yeah, cause I was really afraid if I didn't tithe that like I would stop being blessed by the Lord.
And so even as I was not even like believing, I always set aside tithing money. It was very interesting. There was a lot that was going on that was like, I didn't really buy into it, but I was still abiding by it, right? A lot of like, you know, I didn't think that having sex before marriage made me used goods, but I did kind of think that, you know, like subconsciously. And I was treating myself as if it was true. was kind of like with tithing, like I tithed for so long.
even when I didn't really officially belong to a church, just because I was afraid if I didn't, I'd get punished in some way. And yeah, I just saw all of these really rich people living their best freaking lives and none of them were religious. I was like, yeah, yeah. I was like, I mean, they're doing great. Like, what is, what's their secret, you know?
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (22:06)All of their houses isn't keeping all of their money.
Scot Loyd (22:16)So much for the prosperity doctrine, right?
Mattie Jo Cowsert (22:19)Exactly. And then I was like, that's so fucked. Like prosperity gospel, it literally like, yeah, it is, it is exploitative of people's needs and wants. And I knew people who went to prosperity gospel churches and I judged them because I didn't think my church was like that. But now I'm like, damn, 10 % is a lot. Like if I think about how much we spend in taxes to then put another 10 % on top of that, like, my gosh.
So anyway, those were just a little bit of the culture shocks.
Scot Loyd (22:50)Yeah, and Daniela, you talked about something that I saw that you produced this week about how in a cult or a high control group or even a church like this, right? If they pass an offering plate, it's not free.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (23:05)Yeah.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (23:05)This is one of the things that riles me up so much, especially you get like AA talking about it all the time and in churches. And it's like, you don't understand the first thing about group behavior if you think that it's free, if you're passing it around, right? Like that is just social proof at work, right? Human beings are incredibly biased to, it's a survival mechanism that we have.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (23:12)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
you
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (23:35)that we decide to do a lot based in part on what everyone else around us is doing, right? If you approach a stream and everyone else is drinking from it, then probably it's safe, right? And so social proof, and then especially after we gather you together, we have you do a bunch of chanting, which makes us feel vulnerable and in sync with each other, right? And then we also makes us highly susceptible to suggestion.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (23:42)100%.
You
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (24:05)And then we pass around this offering plate, you know? And it's like, this is the kind of thing that is at work. And I do really think it's a sobering moment to think about like, how much money they're getting. You know, I did this math in my cult when I was 12 years old, right? I the minimum, like minimum number of people we have, minimum number that they have to send every month.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (24:05)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
(02:07):
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (24:33)because our call had like a minimum if your 10 % was too low for them, speaking of exploitative, right? And I was like, just based on that, it is millions of dollars, you know, and like that really, I think can be like an important wake up moment. But another thing when you were talking, it just struck me as like, it's almost the benefit of being in like the compound, right? Is that like, when you get thrown out, like, you know, you're out.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (24:35)Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (25:02)Like you just lost your whole value system, you know? But as you were talking even about the kind of, know, promiscuous behavior that like same thing that I did, you know, but it's like, because when you leave a cult, like it was a framework for how to live your life, right? And all of a sudden that framework was just gone.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (25:04)Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (25:25)The only difference between me being dropped off in Texas at 15 from my call and like you in New York City was like, I knew my framework was gone, but you were kind of like slowly losing yours. And that's a lot, I think a lot more of the like common deconstruction process. And just like, I could feel the whiplash as you were describing it, you know? It's just like.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (25:25)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, yeah. was also, I was talking about this earlier with someone about sort of the anonymity of New York was the best gift that it gave me to your point about social pressure because when no one in New York, again, my joke is like, if no one in New York gave a fuck, gave a fuck who I was, who I was fucking, and if I was saying fuck, who did I want to be?
You know, because back home, once that anonymity was imparted, I realized how much of my behavior was really based in fear of judgment from others and to be accepted by and belong, right? And then to your point with the framework, yeah, I mean, I have a couple of like big moments where it was like,
This is bullshit. This is bullshit. This is bullshit. But the minutia, I didn't really tackle a lot of that. It was much slower. So it was like I knew I was losing my framework, but I wasn't fully conscious of it. And I definitely didn't have a new framework to work off of. So I say,
I call the years that I write about in the book my rubble years because I had knocked down a bunch of shit, but I had no idea how to rebuild from it. So I was just like seeping in an atomic wasteland of my previous self with no idea how to like rebuild. And I didn't get there for a while. You know, it was probably like three solid years before I was like, I think I have to do something about this, you know, which I
also talk about in the book, but yeah. And again, it's not as obvious to everybody on the outside. And it was also particularly difficult because I had so many friends who were doing the whole evangelical married thing and they had gotten it right. They had done everything right and so they had gotten the husband. Clearly I had done something wrong for my college boyfriend to not want me, to not be chosen.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (28:00)Right.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (28:11)And I internalized that to mean that, you know, I was unlovable and God didn't, you know, want to reward me for whatever reason. And then I sort of just like dug in further on that, like, well, you know, like if you think that was bad, let me show you, you know, like it was just really interesting looking back how I was operating. And as I've written
(02:28):
I'm developing a TV show by the same title. And some of the feedback that I've gotten is that for the medium of film, you have to have an external conflict, right? Because you have to show the conflict. And I'm like, it's so interesting because so much of my experience was an internal conflict. So I'm going to have to work on that because so much of the deconstruction process is an internal conflict. It's like a fear of yourself.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (29:05)Yeah. Yeah.
Scot Loyd (29:07)And in your show, and I watched the proof of concept, by the way, it's fabulous. Great, work. But you opened that up with a story that you tell in the book with your liaison with a pop star. And it really is comical because I can relate so much. When you talk about the fact that, you know, we were conditioned, sex was this really
Mattie Jo Cowsert (29:12)Yeah. Thank you.
Mm-hmm.
Scot Loyd (29:36)big taboo, right? And anytime you talked about sex or God forbid had sex, you certainly did not talk about it. And so you get involved with this, this pop star and immediately afterwards he's hydrating or something like that. It's not really a big deal and you're laying there and you're like having all of this conflict internally. And in, in, the television show, there's, there's a woman. I'm not sure who the woman represents.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (29:38)Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (29:43)you
Mattie Jo Cowsert (29:45)Mm-hmm.
Yeah
Mm-hmm.
Scot Loyd (30:05)But she's like, she's like your, your conscience maybe. And she's like telling you how awful what you've done. And she actually has a piece of fruit at that she's destroying and she's saying, this is you, right? Yeah. But, but that, that was really eyeopening how, difficult it is for those of us that are raised in that culture to assimilate. And this is why we walk around so awkward and weird all the time.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (30:05)Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, with a pencil. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm, yeah. Yeah.
Scot Loyd (30:34)It's because we don't know what to say or how to act or what to do.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (30:38)Yeah, yeah. So I'm glad that you picked up on that juxtaposition because that was really important to me. Like he is being so casual and I'm like immediately clothing myself. Like I didn't even take my bra off for sex. Like, you know, and I go into the bathroom and I have this moment with God and even while it's happening. So we actually had to like marry a few scenes for production purposes and like time and location and all of that. But she was supposed to be
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (30:41)Thanks.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (31:07)my first boyfriend's mom is what she, you know, like I was sharing a very innocent first kiss when I was like 14 and she comes in and she does that whole thing. But really she just represents like any church lady or like for me, my abstinence teacher, because I literally got that exact demonstration in my abstinence class.
(02:49):
much of the proof of concept, I would like to be like, I'm such a brilliant writer. can't like, I came up with this amazing, no, this is just like literally how it happened. And so that was really important to me to like show, you know, there are some things that are fabricated for the point of like for storytelling purposes, but yeah, that the tomato and the pencil stabbing, that really was, that was the thing I learned.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (31:52)But Maddie, let me tell you, let me tell you this term. So there's a term for when we like all police each other and like what each other is supposed to be doing. And like, you know, in the church when you pull another adult aside and you counsel them, it is called, and we do it to ourselves, right? And it's called performative regulation.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (32:03)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Wow, yes.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (32:19)And I gift you this term because I think it's so awesome. And it's like exactly what you're describing there. And I think turning that like your self-conscious into one of the church like aunties is like, that's just like performative regulation.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (32:22)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yes, and I mean, the pop star, yeah, just so casual. Yeah, he had to humidify. He had a concert the next day.
Scot Loyd (32:47)And then he's connecting you to his friend, right? And so all of this conversation is going on immediately following sex. And you nail that beautifully because that is exactly how all of us that move away from that culture, we feel, especially about the subject of sex. And of course, it's other subjects as well, but that seems to be the most obvious one.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (32:52)Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. I mean, to be clear, I don't think that like how he behaved was quote unquote normal at all. I think it was massively douchey. Like even given all of the experiences I've had since, I'm like, no, he was a total tool. But in how he behaved in that moment, I have heard from others he has not evolved much. So sometimes it just happens that way.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (33:41)In my head it's just there. In my head it's just
Mattie Jo Cowsert (33:44)Like, because it's not John Mayer. It's not that cool. The best thing about this pop singer, I can't, I can't like reveal, reveal his identity, but like the best thing about him is that like he's one of those pop singers that everyone knows, but no one knows his name, which is honestly the best karma for him because like he's successful, but no one really knows. Like no one knows who he is, but they probably know his songs. You know what I mean?
But anyways, yeah, the how to behave in
sexual situations, let alone how to like carry oneself in a way that felt empowering and confident and assured. Like, forget it. You just, I mean, for so much of like my early days of having sex, I was just sort of going off of what I thought everyone else was doing. And then eventually I learned everyone else is also having really bad sex, like, which is also a problem. Like, why is
And everyone's just sort of playing it off like, ha ha, LOL, drunk sex again. And I'm like, it's not funny actually. It's like very bad that we're all just creating normalcy around being intoxicated for sex with men. By the way, for women, that's like very unsafe. But it was things like that that I didn't feel at the time that I could speak to. But over time, I started to be like, I actually think this is pretty fucked up.
Maybe we should change this cultural norm. And then right around the time that I was sort of having that awakening, Donald Trump came on the scene and I was like, are you serious? Like all this stuff that I feel like I've been unpacking is now on my daily news brief every day. And it was just like having to relive it and sort of like an I told you so. Like I had been talking about this for a while and like,
Scot Loyd (35:36)Yeah.
(03:10):
Mattie Jo Cowsert (35:47)I don't know, people just thought it was like, funny, whatever it is funny, like I write in a humorous way, but it's also very dangerous. And I think we see that now, right? It's very dangerous because it's so insidious and it like creeps and crawls through all of culture. Yeah.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (35:47)No, people just have to.
Yeah. Well, I just want to say like one thing that's really been fascinating to me as you're talking is like, you know, when we were saying earlier, like, it's all the same. It's like, we had the same trauma, we acted it out in very similar ways. No, it was coming from a different place, right? Like yours was purity culture, and mine was pedophilia culture.
Scot Loyd (36:05)And something, go ahead, Daniela.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (36:21)Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (36:29)But like, it's still, right? Being a young child, being a developing human being and like having your whole world be about sex and all of these things, you know, is just, it's so marking of you in such a way. And, you know, as you were talking, like it's so funny, because I had the opposite feeling. I was like, no, I am self-assured. I'm done with that craziness. I own my body. I make the choices.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (36:40)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (36:58)And then it wasn't, I'm actually a grown adult that's a lot more healed and I'm going back and writing about some of that stuff that I'm like, no, I was kind of participating in this same risky behavior. And anyways, just like, this parallel is very strong to me and I like appreciate you writing the book that like talks about that stuff, right? Because that's hard to do and it's hard to like put yourself out there like that.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (37:12)Yeah.
Yeah.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (37:28)but this is one of the reasons why when people are deconstructing, now in my cult book plot, we do like 12 cult memoirs in a row, but it's like to notice these patterns and see that it's like, yeah, these themes, these tactics that they use on us are very similar. I think, I mean, across the board, cult survivors have just said, like when Donald Trump won, it was just like so triggering. And so, you know.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (37:28)Mm-hmm.
and themes. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's, it is. That's the word. Insidious.
Scot Loyd (38:06)Maddie, you, there's a particular quote that I pulled out here and you use the language of social reward and you describe it as you kept seeking a God of love and I hoped was still there for me. And I think a lot of what those of us that are coming out of these types of cultures, what we end up feeling is that sense of
(03:31):
Mattie Jo Cowsert (38:11)Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Scot Loyd (38:35)Where do I belong? What is my purpose? Because so much of our identity, and I was a pastor as well, and my identity was tied up in that. And then once I moved away from that, I'm like, what the hell do I do with my life now? And it was especially complicated because a lot of this was happening in my 40s and 50s and not as a younger person. So talk a little bit about that.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (38:37)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Scot Loyd (39:04)aspect of it. And also, by the way, I've got to say something, and I think I pointed this out to you early on. Your experience that I think is different from most people's experience is that your family is awesome. Like your brother and your mother and your father and the way that they supported you on this journey, especially your brother and the advice that he was able to give you, the wisdom that he was able to share with you.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (39:19)yeah, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Scot Loyd (39:33)I know for most of us that is something that an experience that we don't have. So talk a little bit about the pressures to first of all, when you're moving away from that, probably the reason that you were still holding on to a lot of these residual ideas was you wanted to please your family and you didn't want to upset those relationships. I know that's been true in my case.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (39:38)Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I was going to say, I'm conducting research right now talking to women who have been evangelical married and evangelical divorced. And my God, shit is dark. I really do. like, I told a girl last night, or a woman last night, I was like, I know it's all the same as we've been discussing Daniela, but I truly believe they had it worse than I did because they were marred in these marriages for
15 plus years, right? And the only thing that is like, or the one thing that's not a renewable resource in life is time. And they lost that time to such, to lies, just straight up lies. So, and many of them, since leaving the marriages have not had support from their parents. And so many of them have said, thank you for sharing your story because you do have support from your parents.
And that is something many of us, can never be public about our stories because it would cost us everything. And it's already costing them so much. Right. And so I was lucky in that. And I talk about this also in the book, I like that's my catchphrase. I talk about this in the book, but at home, I learned a God of love and compassion. And so like, that's what my parents taught me. So ultimately,
this God is why I deconstructed because what I was learning from the faith practice was directly in conflict with that in the larger world, right? These things work as long as you keep it in a tight container, but the second you go outside of that, it all kind of, it all blows up pretty quickly. And so I did have this want to, and I still do, I still had this
like want to be close to God in this God of love and compassion that I felt I had had a deep divine connection to at a very young age, like when I was like 14, you know, I talk about it like at theater camp is when I felt like I was really one with God and and I didn't have that language at the time or like when I visited New York City for the first time. That's when I felt like really one with God. And so I felt like I had had these divine experiences and that connection.
So I hoped, I really hoped that I would still have access to that. The problem was the way that I had learned to have access to it and what I believed is that it was that I had to be a Christian. I had to believe Jesus was the Messiah. I had to live out these certain morals or I would no longer have access to that God. So I was sad about that, you know, and that was really, that was a grieving process. I was grieving my relationship to
something that I thought was very real, but thought was also now conditional, you know? And in terms of my family, I was very lucky in that, like I said, I learned a God of love and compassion. So as I started speaking out publicly about a lot of this, my parents were sort of nodding their heads in agreement. I don't think they realized how bad it was until my older sister, who the book is,
(03:52):
dedicated to, she was really going off the rails, like deep in the dogma and dogmatic lifestyle and just like ministry group after ministry group after ministry group. And she was miserable. And she was super judgmental. Like my parents were like, what happened to our daughter? And so seeing her kind of like go off the rails like that, they were like, what have we done?
Like what did we introduce her to that like got her to this place? Cause that's not how my parents were. Not that they didn't also, like they taught us to not have sex until we were married and all of that. I'm not gonna, you know, and to what we were discussing before we pressed record, I definitely had pressures to look a certain way or men would not like me. You know, I think no woman is exempt from that kind of narrative, but it's like particularly bad in the church because your whole life is about being someone's wife and being chosen. So you really better like,
And then if you're not like sexy enough and they cheat on you, it's your fault, like all of that, right? So I definitely still got messages about, you need to be, you need to look a certain way to be attractive and things like that. They weren't perfect, but they definitely weren't telling me that it would be my fault if a guy cheated on me. I want to be clear about that. It was nothing, nothing that bad, but I did still have a lot of pressure to like,
look and be a certain size. And it all went back to being like chosen by men. But my parents got really screwed over by our church that we were part of for like 15 years. And my dad basically got like unjustifiably pushed out. And once that happened, my mom, being the woman she is who never wanted to be a preacher's wife to begin with, she was like, you got to figure something else out.
I am not spending the rest of my life. What years we have left being a preacher's wife. This is unstable. You don't have retirement. I want to retire soon. I want to travel. I don't want to do this anymore. And so my dad took a total career pivot. He was selling insurance for $35,000 a year or something in his 50s. And now he has an amazing job and works in education.
He works for the Missouri, he works for a grant program through Mizzou that helps enrichment for schools all over Missouri. anyway, so I was lucky in that right as I was going through a lot of my stuff, my parents got really burned by the church and Donald Trump happened and they were appalled and they were like, I cannot believe this. And so,
Scot Loyd (46:09)Yeah.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (46:12)Thank you.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (46:13)I did, and look, listen, I don't want to call people stupid, but I have smart parents. My parents valued education and they taught us to think critically. I don't think most parents care about that with their kids. They care about obedience. They care about, need to make us look good. That was not my parents' parenting ethic at all. My parents' parenting ethic was,
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (46:31)Yes.
Yeah.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (46:39)We teach you to be the best humans you can be so that you can contribute well to society. And part of that is questioning, being curious, learning how to gather knowledge and thinking critically. and imparting compassion, always cheering for the underdog. Like these are things that my parents lived out in their lives. So it was easier to like emulate. But yeah, I know not everybody is that lucky.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (47:06)This this thing that you said I think is really important because that is kind of the difference. It's like the cult sells you this idea, right? This idea of perfectly groomed children standing in a row, never speaking out, you know, and I
Mattie Jo Cowsert (47:17)Hehe.
Yes.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (47:26)I got the daughter I deserved, right? Like I got the daughter that refused to breathe for seven minutes, because she just wasn't gonna be rushed, okay? And she's been that kid since day one. And my husband and I always joke that like the hardest part of parenting is that she doesn't have a good soldier mode to snap into. You know, meanwhile, I think that like the almost like superpower that all of us called babies have is the, can do it with a broom.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (47:28)Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (47:55)heart, you know, no matter what is going on, when it is showtime, we can go, right? And it's fake. And it's nasty. And it's bad for us. But it's also like this almost like survival skill that we learned, because we weren't being judged on, you know, so like when you're being raised in a cult or by this like works and obedience, like, that's the opposite of unconditional love. And you, you were getting
Mattie Jo Cowsert (47:56)Yes!
(04:13):
That is such a good point, yeah.
Yeah.
Yes, exactly.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (48:24)unconditional love from your parents, right, which means they're gonna have to like reaffirm you as individuals. And so by the way, it doesn't surprise me that your dad eventually ran afoul, right? Because that's one of the things about cults too, is like the cult never cares more about operational success than about control, right? Like the control is part of the point.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (48:27)Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (48:52)So even if you have like a loving, affirming leader, but he's not controlling people enough, like you said, it all falls apart, right? If you get too far outside of that. But also just so much credit to your parents, right? Like I also am very lucky that I had a mother who like affirmed me being me, you know, like through this deconstruction journey. And it makes a huge difference. I mean,
Mattie Jo Cowsert (48:52)Yeah.
That is such a good point. Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (49:21)I have so many, and we're gonna have so many listeners now that like, it's almost like they vicariously want to hear your story because they're never gonna get that kind of support from their parents.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (49:30)Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, and it is heartbreaking. I almost, it's like I can understand it, but I can't really understand it. But I do, I mean, I made a video about this. Like if your definition of love is so conditional and wrathful, which is God, which is the Christian God, right? Like,
Scot Loyd (49:54)Yeah.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (49:58)its core it is do what I say or I will burn you in hell believe how I said or I'll burn you in hell for eternity for eternity then if that is love that is your definition of love then no wonder so many parents can stomach their gay kids committing suicide because they're like no well if I if I would have accepted him and actually loved him that would have been worse
than them committing suicide. Like the disconnect is insane to me, but I get it because like I was in it. So I understand that. The most loving thing you can do is like convert someone.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (50:37)Yeah. I saw this meme.
I saw this meme that said the Christian asked the atheist, so what if you die and God is real? And the atheist said, I'll give him a chance to apologize. This is kind of the realization I had, right? Because I was just thrown out at 15, right? So I was just like, well, I never really believed at all anyways, right? I'm going off. But then eventually, you still have to come back and ask yourself, what do you believe and what do you everything? And you have that what if.
(04:34):
Scot Loyd (50:51)That's great.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (50:57)Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (51:12)right? Because that's again, we're raised in fear if you don't do right. So what if and eventually I was like, if I die, after everything I have suffered in the name of God and being a generally good person, like, and my biggest sin is I didn't believe in you and you're gonna throw me in hell for everything I've suffered in your name. Like, I don't I don't want that God right? Like
Mattie Jo Cowsert (51:25)Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. my God. Yeah. My joke is if heaven is full of evangelicals and Donald Trump and hell is like the fab five and like Lady Gaga, send me straight to hell in a two-piece, baby. Belly button out and all. It's hot down there. Yeah.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (51:59)That is great. That is great.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (52:03)And then in terms of my brother, I know we have to wrap up in a few, but in terms of my brother, I did, got lucky in that Derek, well, I just said his real name. He's Eddie in the book. He's much older than me, so he had kind of gone through a lot of this already. And he kind of got the black sheep thing out of the way for me. I have to give him so much gratitude for that.
Scot Loyd (52:14)Ha
Mattie Jo Cowsert (52:29)Because he just like bucked the system so much with my parents that based on like his him, I was like, there is literally nothing I can do to break my parents. Like he has been a shithead and has contended so much of their teachings and whatever. And they still love him. They love him so much. And so I was just kind of like, great. And I knew he could be, you know, a resource. And he was he was an invaluable resource to me.
Scot Loyd (52:59)It is a fantastic book and I encourage everyone to read it. And Maddie, I'm going to ask you this as we conclude. You have entire chapters dedicated to your experiences with rich people. one of the early stories that one of the early jobs that you had, were basically, you basically just returned this rich woman's shit all the time. It's like you went to the store and it's like she wanted you to return it.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (53:13)Yeah.
Scot Loyd (53:29)The question you can tell that story if you'd like but the question is what did you discover about rich people and and you know Generally where all of us are raised in the world. We think of rich people as someone You know who drives a nice car lives in a nice house, but you were actually around rich rich people. Yes
Mattie Jo Cowsert (53:32)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Rich people. Yeah. Yeah, I say it a bit tongue in cheek because when you call rich people, rich people, they get very uncomfortable. It's like, I think they want to be called something else. And I'm like, well, you just are. Like that is what you are, you know, like whatever. But yeah, no, I do have strong feelings about it because I'm like, no, you think like this guy in Texas who like has a nice house and
has a nice car and like can send his three kids to private Christian school and whatever they're gonna go to. They're gonna go to UT, blah, blah. No, that guy is not rich. I literally work for the 1%, like the 1 % to the 0.01%. These motherfuckers are rich and it has, if anything, made me far more liberal. Because I'm just like, no one needs this much money. Anyway, no.
But it is complex. will say like what are things that I've learned from rich people and about rich people? At our core, like people are people. And yes, while it looks, it appears very different in what they are going through. And you kind of like, there are so many times in my life and my jobs where I've just had to like nod my head and be like, this is a rich people problem. Like, this is not a real problem. This is a rich people problem. But
At our core, everyone is still asking the same questions. What is my purpose? Why am I here? And for people who have everything, they, especially if it's not like their wealth, like what they worked for necessarily. So say it's like the spouse of the person who made the money or the kids of the person who made the money.
(04:55):
They live in a deeply insecure place because they know none of it was actually earned, that they're never going to have to really struggle. And there's really, in my opinion, there's no satisfaction without struggle because the whole reason you value something is because you know what it took to get there. So I think it's...
It's just a lot of insecurity that is expressing itself and really messed up power dynamics and structure. I will also say that a lot of rich people are so generous and so kind and so supportive and they just want to do whatever they can to help people. And they are, they're like driving the arts. are, you know, any, like they,
they do have their hands in lots of things, right? And so that was really fun to learn. know, like, wow, actually, like someone having money doesn't make them an asshole. They were just an asshole and they either have money or they don't have money, you know? And, but I also, in terms of like what I've learned, there are definitely things that are cultural.
I don't know what it is, like, and this isn't all, but a lot of rich people are just like, their kids' lives are like very, very, very scheduled all the time. Like there's no room for play, pretending, entertaining yourself. Like they are just constantly controlled and like overlooked and overlooked meaning like surveillance essentially.
Scot Loyd (57:38)Yeah.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (57:39)And they, don't know, like, I think one thing that always got on my nerves as like a childcare provider is I was like, these kids just expect to be talked to constantly. Like, why can't they just play by themselves for one second? Like, I played by myself so much as a kid, you know? But, yeah, exactly.
Scot Loyd (57:58)Yeah. It's because we didn't have any money. We didn't have anything to play with.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (58:04)so there are definitely like nuanced cultural things like that. you know, I could, I could go on and on, but you know, I've signed NDAs and things. but I, I just think at the end of the day, like people are people. And when you find, when you are who you are and you're honest about who you are, you'll find your people. like actually along the way, like.
I've spent so many years on the Upper West Side working for various families. So now when I walk around the Upper West Side, I run into families all the time. Maddie Jo, we've missed you. And their kids are like teenagers now. And I've gotten to really be a part of these kids' lives. And so I don't know. I do feel like a lot of those families became my New York family. I do feel that, but there has also been plenty of like...
my God, no one needs this much money. You know, that's not every family that I've worked for, but there are some families that I'm just like, why and how? Like I'm just genuinely curious how. Yeah. So.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (59:11)Yeah.
Scot Loyd (59:18)And which is going to be covered probably by Daniela and in your forthcoming book, The Culting of America, right? Because capitalism is a big cult, is it not?
Mattie Jo Cowsert (59:27)Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (59:28)I mean, yeah, this is part of the this is part of the problem is that, you know, I think, actually, I came to it in my chapter about us versus them mentality is that with America, the problem is we are new is better and old. More is always better. Bigger is always better. Right. So it's just this like, you know,
Mattie Jo Cowsert (59:33)Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (59:53)Another thing I heard recently was like, if it was anything other than money, we would call that hoarding and classify that as like a mental disorder, right? When you're talking about billionaires and mega millionaires. It's just like, if that was any other thing in the world, even like physical actual gold, it would be like this problem.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (59:59)Mm-hmm.
Great.
(05:16):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And I just, can't even understand like with how much I know things cost, right? Like we know things cost a lot, like inflation, even with that, I'm like, I really think if everyone made like $500,000 a year, everyone would be doing more than okay. Like I don't understand why anyone would need any more money than that. Like,
I just don't, like even at my most successful, I'm like, I don't think that I will like, what more could I possibly do other than, I don't know, build, like start other foundations, whatever. But then it's like, again, they all have these like charities and stuff that they start because it's a tax write-off. And it's just like, I mean, I'm glad that it is going into something, but like, I don't know that we need privatized charity in that way. Like that being the main form of social,
social support in our country is reliance on super wealthy people for their charitable philanthropic services. man, that's not great.
Daniella (KnittingCultLady) (1:01:25)opposite. Yeah, that's the opposite of a developed nation.
Scot Loyd (1:01:28)Yeah.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (1:01:29)Yeah. And to be fair, I don't think these people are bad people. I really don't. But it is a genuine question of mine of I just, why? Why do you need x, like, 7 to 10 multimillion dollar properties that you only ever spend max two months at a time in? I can't understand it.
Maybe it's because I was raised by a preacher and a teacher.
Scot Loyd (1:02:01)It's a great book. encourage everyone to read it. God, sex, and rich people. Maddie, if someone wants to support you, follow you, buy the book. How do they do that?
Mattie Jo Cowsert (1:02:03)Thank you.
So follow me at MaddieJoKowsert on Instagram. I hate that this is a thing, but like follows do matter. I've been like ranting about it on my stories recently, but follows do matter. I also just, and on my website, maddiejokowsert.com backslash book, there's the option there. If you want to order a book,
a book, you can order it directly from me. Just shoot me a DM on Instagram and we'll get that arranged. Also, I just recently launched a free five-day email course called A Guide to Post-Purity Culture Dating. Crap, I don't even know what it's called. It's Dating After Purity Culture. I just launched it. I just finished it. It's datingafterpurityculture.com. Yeah, it's a guide to
getting great dates and dick coming out of purity culture. And it's free. So you can sign up there, datingafterpurityculture.com. And yeah, I think those are the essentials.
Scot Loyd (1:03:20)Fantastic. I know we just scratched the surface. Hopefully we can have you back sometime and continue the conversation. It's been great, Maddie. Thank you so much. Follow Daniela as well to all of our listeners. Buy her book, Uncultured. It's a great read as well. And thank you all for joining us. And until next time, I'm Scott Lloyd for Daniela Mestenec Young. We'll see you on the next episode of Cults and the Culting of America.
Mattie Jo Cowsert (1:03:24)Yes!
Thank you so much.
Yes, I will.
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Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.