August 4, 2025 • 35 mins
Embezzlement usually starts with someone “you’d never suspect.” Dr. Josh Cochran thought he was building a strong team after opening his practice, but the financials told a different story. In this episode, he shares why it took him so long to realize his employee was embezzling, the red flags he missed, and how he would do things differently today. Learn what systems to put in place to protect your business and the most effective way to prevent embezzlement in your practice!
Topics discussed in this episode:
- Two things you need to learn in your practice
- Dr. Cochran’s early mistakes
- Common red flags of embezzlement
- How he addressed the embezzlement in his practice
- Writing exercise for managing stress
- The emotional impact of embezzlement
- How to prevent embezzlement
Connect with Dr. Josh Cochran:
https://www.youtube.com/@TheDr.JoshCochranShow
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paul Etchison (00:02):
Embezzlement.
It is a dirty word that no onewants to think about, but it
happens more often than youthink.
My personal friend, dr JoshCochran, experienced it
firsthand at his practice andtoday we're going to hear about
how it happened and why it tookhim so long to notice.
You're going to leave thisepisode knowing the signs of
embezzlement, how to take actionand, most importantly, what you
(00:23):
can do to make sure that itnever happens to you.
You are listening to DentalPractice Heroes, where we help
you to create a team andsystem-driven dental practice,
one that allows you to practiceless and make more money.
I'm Dr Paul Etcheson, a dentalcoach, author of two books on
dental practice management andthe owner of a five-doctor
practice in the south suburbs ofChicago.
(00:43):
I wanna show you how beingintentional about ownership can
create a practice that supportsyour life instead of consuming
it.
So if you're ready to create atrue business that runs without
you, you're in the right place.
Let's get started.
(01:03):
Hello and welcome back to theDental Practice Heroes podcast.
So excited for my guest today, agood friend of mine, dr Josh
Cochran, and man, this guy has agreat just a long list of
things he's done.
He's grown a dental group fromscratch to like 160 team members
, lots of locations he exited,spent more time with his family.
(01:24):
Just recently he's a realestate developer over 150
million in development with hisuh construction company, his
development and constructioncompany, cm development and
construction.
And right now he's helpingpeople with tax mitigation and
investment strategies throughcochran capital.
And his latest project, as ifhe didn't have enough to do, is
the dr josh cochran show andthat's on youtube and where you
would get a podcast.
So, man, he's done a lot ofthings.
(01:45):
This is somebody who personallyspent many hours with me me
when I was on my practice.
He was my home base man becausehim and I were going through
the same thing, and so muchappreciate you for that, josh,
and appreciate just being yourfriend.
So glad that you made it on thepodcast.
I'm excited about our topic.
Josh Cochran (02:03):
So glad that you made it on the podcast.
I'm excited about our topic.
Yeah, happy to be here, paul.
It's a pleasure, always fun,and hopefully we can provide
some good stories and thingsthat will really resonate with
people and help them on theirown journey.
Paul Etchison (02:13):
So, yeah, it's great because if you clicked on
this podcast because of thetitle, you probably know what
we're talking about.
But we're going to talk aboutembezzlement today and before me
and Josh hit record.
I was just like I just said,man, I was like you are the only
person I'm good friends withthat this happened to.
And he's like oh thanks, thanksfor hitting me where I'm
vulnerable.
That's really good.
(02:34):
So I just asked him man, canyou come on?
Let's just talk about thisexperience.
So Josh, man, set the stage forus.
Can you give us a quick versionof what your practice setup was
at the time that this happenedto you?
Josh Cochran (02:44):
So this was like general story associated for
probably three years, right.
And I just always had that needto paint my own business right,
like I just needed to buildsomething and locally things,
practices had been done the waythey've been done for 30 years.
(03:05):
I didn't really see innovation,I didn't see really anybody
committed to the future orcommitted to what patients
wanted, right.
So I decided that like, look,I'm going to do it how I think
it should be done and I'm goingto do a startup to do that.
And, as you know and everyonelistening here has been through
new endeavors, you know you canread the books, you can go to
(03:26):
the conferences, but the reallearning comes from the
application.
You just got to do it right,right.
So I think you know I did thewhole process, found a location,
went through all that and youknow, when it was finally time,
like the session was wrapping up, you know you got to start
setting things up software, blah, blah, blah employees, and for
(03:46):
office they didn't really haveanybody, right.
So I just put out ads.
And what's interesting aboutcertain industries is there's
literally no education systemfor the job role.
So when there's no educationsystem for the job role, you
don't know what you're going toget and you have no idea the
(04:07):
level of training right.
And I think one of the biggestfailures in dentistry is
dentists should all learninsurance.
We should all learn frontoffice right.
Is the money part of ourbusiness?
It's so important.
So when people talk to me nowlike the first thing I say is
learn front office.
Like force yourself to do itright, because you spend all
this money on education like adoctor's job and like doctor
(04:28):
production right and you'reproducing X amount per hour as a
doctor.
Like why learn like a 20, 25hour, $25 an hour job?
Right, it makes no sense.
Right, it seems like a massivewaste of time but like now where
I'm standing, if I ever wentback into dentistry I would know
insurance and front office likeso well.
(04:50):
One is it's the money coming inyour door, right, and so you got
to like audit financial, makesure everything comes in.
That really ties into theembezzlement piece, but the
other pieces are is like there'sso much opportunity.
Like the highest income dentistI know knows insurance back and
forth.
Whenever he gets like aninteresting insurance come in
(05:10):
the door, he figures out likewhere that came from, why it
came from how can he optimize itright, and he has.
He makes so much money everyyear like doing the same amount
of work we're doing right,making 10 times less right, 20
times less.
Because he's're doing right,making 10 times less right, 20
times less.
Because he's optimized it right.
He figures out what patients'needs are and he delivers on
(05:31):
those needs.
So that's probably the biggesttake home I would say today,
just on the front end, is likeforce yourself to learn front
office and learn insurance well,and then you can actually hold.
When you bring these people inwhere there's no education
system, you can actually holdthem accountable right, because
you've done it, you know it, soyou can train them and hold them
accountable.
Paul Etchison (05:51):
A lot of people that reach out to me for
coaching.
I say, like what was the thingthat happened that caused you to
reach out?
And a lot of them just say,like my front end is just a mess
and I don't know what to dowith it.
And I just don't know what totell them to do because I don't
understand any of it.
And there was just times when Iwas putting together my
OmniPractice program I sat downwith my front desk lead and I
(06:13):
said show me all this stuff.
And what's interesting is it'snot the mystery you think it is.
It just requires a few hours ofjust sitting up there because
you know more than you think.
You just don't know exactlywhat they're doing.
Do you have any recommendationsfor people on how they might
actually learn more about thefront desk and the admin part of
(06:35):
their practices, the insurancepart?
Josh Cochran (06:37):
Yeah.
So it's always based likeeducation, right, and then doing
so, educationalize, read bookson it right, but then you have
to apply it.
I also think Travis Campbelllike.
I've never signed up for hisstuff, but when I see his posts
and stuff I'm like, oh gosh, youhave to learn this stuff, right
?
So I think Travis Campbellwould be a good resource.
So learn it.
(06:57):
But then, like Paul said, like,start doing it.
Like go up front and startdoing it right.
That's the best way to learn.
You will have so much more peaceof mind now that you know
what's going on up front, right,and you will.
I tell you, you will make somuch more money.
I can't even tell you, right,it's not about making money.
It's like making money indentistry is very hard.
(07:18):
Revenues don't go up, but costsdo right Every year, or getting
the same insurance for you 30years ago, right, or at least
benefits.
So it's like you have to figurethis out so you don't go crazy,
just making no money andstressed out and doing volume.
Dentistry.
It's just like own that frontoffice, you'll be so much
(07:39):
happier.
Okay, let's go back to my story.
So, because I was makingexcuses, why not to find my pain
point and own it.
I'm a dentist, I'll findsomebody to do this.
Yeah, I mean, I can just paysomebody 20 bucks.
Why would I learn this?
I went out, put out ads, startedinterviewing folks right, we
all read like interview, likehow to do it best.
(08:00):
And you know, I did my best Icould and maybe interviewed
three, five people and found awoman and I actually had filled
in at her office one time.
I don't know if we did thatthen, but she seemed great.
I brought her on right and Iwas like okay, I'm going to do
the dental side, the clinical,I'm going to focus on this.
I need you to run the frontoffice Like.
(08:21):
You know how to do this, this isyour experience.
But how do you even vet them?
Because you don't even know,right, you don't really know.
This is all just like you'retrusting your instincts and
during that first year you knowyou're just so busy that you'd
rather trust than trust wouldverify, right, I don't even know
how to verify, and so you havelittle things that go on in your
(08:42):
head like and so you havelittle things that go on in your
head like huh, like that seemsa little off, or gosh, I wish I
knew if that really was how itwas, but I just don't know
enough, so I'm just going toaccept it and focus on what I do
know, what I can control right,can you think of a?
Paul Etchison (08:55):
specific situation.
Josh Cochran (08:57):
You know, you see like write-offs, right, or you
see like reimbursements, andyou're like that seems off to me
, right, but I don't really know.
Or like patient's accounts onbigger cases, like implant cases
.
You know, sometimes it'd belike, oh, we owe this person
like $1,500.
And you're like you're runningthrough it and you're like going
through like the what wascharged and what was reimbursed,
(09:19):
and like the insurance company,and you're just like this seems
off to me, right, and you knowwe'd be doing the end of days,
right, but like, even on the endof day report, I'm like like I
don't really understand how thisworks, like I'm checking things
, that kind of jives, butthere's like still like all
these barriers.
You don't really understand.
And so you know.
(09:40):
But you see your revenue goingup every month, right, and so
you're like, hey, we're growing.
You see patients aren't pissedoff.
So you know, like customerservices, these, and as you're
hiring new team members, you seelike they're getting along
pretty well up front.
You don't want to rock the boat, right, and you don't want to
micromanage people and give thePE, give people the feeling that
you don't want to micromanagepeople and give the people the
feeling that you don't trustthem.
(10:00):
Right, like trust, but verifywas a really good phrase for me
to learn.
So part of this is I delegatedpayroll, which is not a good
idea.
Like super busy, right, Idelegate payroll.
You delegate payroll.
Okay, when you delegate payrollto a team member who pays
themself, right, it pays otherpeople, yeah, now, and they
(10:22):
don't have like an HR background.
They don't have, like thatisn't where they came from
writer, bookkeeping or trainedthat way.
Me too, you know, I'm going totake full accountability for any
like bad happenings in my life.
Right, like, I chose to hirethis person.
I chose to not learn frontoffice.
I chose to delegate a payrollto them, right, because I was so
busy.
I don't want people to missthat as a dentist, right?
(10:45):
Ultimate accountability.
Paul Etchison (10:47):
You know what?
There's so many peoplelistening right now that are
doing the exact same thing notverifying.
They're trusting and I thinkmany people are just not even
looking.
I would say that I had somereports that I would run.
I don't know if they're surefree, but I mean like where the
write-offs were very differentthan the anticipated write-offs.
If it was had to over a certainpercentage it would show up
(11:09):
Looking for after hours computeractivity.
But it's like you can onlyspend so much time looking but
you have to, you have to bite.
Josh Cochran (11:18):
This is not pushed enough.
In dentistry you have to bitethe bullet.
You have to learn it front toback so you can set up the
systems and hold peopleaccountable.
So, getting back to the story,so you know, on some levels very
successful.
I don't remember what our firstyear revenue was.
First, it wasn't very good thefirst couple of months.
It started to grow by the endof the first year.
(11:44):
Maybe I don't know what it was,maybe a million, right
Collected, maybe a million.
My first year, after beingsuper slow, I was like, wow, I
worked all this hard.
I was still working as anassociate as well, right, but
working my butt off, workinglate, whatever, 14 hour days,
you know, 12 hours clinically,plus days on top, hours on top
of that, just grinding.
And I looked at the financialsfor the year and I made no money
.
Paul Etchison (12:01):
No money.
Josh Cochran (12:01):
Nothing.
Paul Etchison (12:02):
Zero.
Josh Cochran (12:03):
Zero, zero dollars .
So I'm like, huh, okay, that'sinteresting, right, worked my
butt off, no income.
Paul Etchison (12:10):
Like no money after your W-2 or no money.
Josh Cochran (12:13):
No, like I hadn't even been paying myself.
Oh, okay, so no W-2 either.
So it wasn't no profitability,it was just like no money.
So it's like we're getting aton of new patients, we're like
taking care of people, we'regetting a ton of good reviews,
like things are growing.
We're hiring team members, likethings are going really well,
but we're making no money.
Okay, and so it's like, okay,there's a red flag right, like I
(12:40):
need to stop and analyze whatI'm doing.
Paul Etchison (12:42):
What was the relationship like with this
person personally, you and thisperson?
Josh Cochran (12:46):
Yeah, I mean I liked her a lot, we got along,
we communicated well, but Ialways had concerns, just
because her life and herlifestyle are my life and my
lifestyle, right.
I'm like 100% family values.
I'm like super work ethic notflashy, right.
I was driving my 2007 Toyota4Runner, right.
(13:07):
Like just different valuesystem, right.
So you have concerns, but youwant to practice radical
acceptance of others, right.
So, anyway, so that was thefirst year, okay, and, as you
know, like one of the bestcatalysts in life, you have a
coaching business.
You're very good.
I try to send folks to you andour other buddies who coach
because you guys are great.
(13:28):
You've done it Like 100%believe in your ability to be a
catalyst for others, right,thank you.
So they're not banging theirhead against the wall, they're
getting where they want to be,whatever that is as quick as
possible.
So, you know, I think I broughton a coach at that point and
I'm trying to remember how.
But John Meese, do you rememberJohn Meese?
Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah.
So I signed up for John Meese's.
(13:48):
It's like, hey, let's get thereas quick as possible.
And I don't remember exactlywhen.
That was maybe a year, year anda half in, and John has his
coaches that work with him okay,and they have one that works
with you.
And the one with the frontoffice team member okay, and the
person with John Mises teammember, like was meeting with my
front office, right.
And then she started picking upsigns Like this was not her
(14:11):
first rodeo, right, this womanhad lots of reps, so she's
picking up these signs becauseher spidey sense is finally
tuned for this, because she'sseen it over the years, right?
So she and John come to me andJosh and they're like Josh, like
you know, have you ever thoughtabout, you know, this team
member potentially embezzlingfrom you?
(14:32):
And I was like I mean, I justdon't know enough.
Like I always have thoseworries, right, but is that my
fear?
Like I don't know.
And then they started likelisting off of, like the signs
of embezzlement, right, and thiskind of like locked it in for
me.
So reluctance to share dutiesor delegate, right, like this
(14:52):
person would stonewall, likenope, I'll handle all that.
Nope, I'm good.
Like, nope, you do this, thisis my job, I do this.
Right, she was very defensiveabout her stuff and anybody
getting involved in anything ofhers.
It was all her.
That's a total red flag, right,and one of the solutions to
embezzlement, I mean long-term.
I think we might talk aboutthis pre-call like AI, right,
(15:15):
it's like AI gets more involvedin front of office.
It's like AI gets more involvedin front of office.
Ai gets involved in theinsurance piece, like you're
going to be able to code forthese types of things and
identify risks, and I mean it'llget a lot better through AI.
Yeah, but that's major one.
Unusual working hours you knowdoing things and no one else is
there, because you know that'swhen they can get the stuff done
.
I don't want to see peopleseeing defensive or secretive
(15:38):
behavior.
Lifestyle match this girl was.
I've been driving my old Toyota, beat up Toyota 4Runner right.
She's driving a Range Rover, ablack, nice, newer Range Rover.
It might have been brand new.
I mean super expensive, right,and so those are kind of red
flags, right.
(15:58):
I'm over here and my entireincome for the year was zero,
yeah, and I'm putting in crazyhours, right, and so those are
kind of red flags right.
Like I'm over here and myentire income for the year was
zero and I'm putting in crazyhours right and grinding, and
she's driving a Range Roverright From the outside it's like
what?
Are you some sort of idiot,josh?
Apparently I am, yeah.
Paul Etchison (16:16):
Well, I'm sure in retrospect you probably look
back and you're like damn damn,oh yeah, damn that time.
That time it's like that wholething.
You can't read the label on theprescription when you're inside
the bottle.
You know what I mean.
It's like yeah.
Josh Cochran (16:28):
I have financial troubles.
She was always short on money,right.
So it's like OK, this, if she'sgoing to go get more money,
where is she going to get thatright?
Well, if she's controlling allthe money in your office, it
makes it pretty easy for her,right, just how she is as a
human being, with her spendingRefusal to take time off her
(16:48):
vacation, right.
If you take time off hervacation, then someone else has
to do your job, right, and thenthey might notice what's going
on.
So, yeah, she didn't takevacations either.
You know, I thought it was agood thing because it was like
oh, it works for a work ethiclike me.
But then when you look at itfrom this perspective, you're
like oh, and then like, payrollwas just kind of like didn't
always like kind of match how Ithought and the bonus system
(17:10):
didn't really match how Ithought.
It's just like those kind oflike little fakes.
So Mies and this team member ofhis like kind of clued me in.
I started looking at things.
Now, I really started lookingat payroll, I really started
looking at all these things andwe just started looking at
numbers and picking it up and itwasn't good.
(17:32):
So we hired Prosperident rightto help with this.
They put together a report, wesent it to like the cops, right,
hey, this is what's going on,let the team member know.
And just kind of went throughthat whole rigmarole, right,
which is hard because you don'thave like another office manager
(17:53):
to take over, right, you don'thave like another office manager
who's better of a financial.
You don't have another officemanager who's better of a
financial.
So you're going from what wasstable but maybe not good with
this embezzlement stuff, to likewho do you even have to replace
them, and where do you evenfind somebody?
And how do you know you'redoing better next time?
Paul Etchison (18:10):
I know one of the recommendations is, if we do
find out, we are not supposed toconfront the person.
When you found out, what wasthat moment like, where you knew
it was true?
Josh Cochran (18:19):
Yeah, I mean it's super stressful.
It's super stressful that youcare about this person, right?
I mean you don't want to accusesomebody of something that may
not be true, right?
So you A care about this person.
You feel like a jerk, right?
You have some self-doubts.
You always doubt, even if thenumbers are in front of you,
Well.
And then the business, right,when you're just super busy, you
(18:42):
know you get all those newpatients.
You're trying to serve yourpatients, you're trying to serve
your other team members.
Do you really want to add likeone more thing, one more giant
problem to solve, to the pot ofgiant problems you're already
facing, right, and you don'twant to do that either.
And I don't know about you,Edge.
But like, if I'm feeling stress, I just like write down like
(19:02):
where all my stress is comingfrom.
So, step one, identify it,right.
Step two, kind of break it down, Like why is those things
stressful, right, and now, likeI'm not feeling, like I'm just
not like ambiguously feelingstress and just coping with it.
I'm like what is it?
Why is it there?
And then I just commit tomaking that my top priority.
(19:24):
Whatever my stress is right,Not hide from it, not hope it
goes away.
I just don't do that anymore.
Paul Etchison (19:31):
Talk about how you utilize that in this
situation.
Josh Cochran (19:34):
This is a tool I use now just identifying my
stress, breaking it down, andthen clear action steps.
Right, what clears stress?
Action, right.
So, like my issues here were nomoney right, the practice
wasn't making money like itshould.
We had the leader of thepractice, after myself maybe
(19:56):
being having like an ethicalquandary, right, and so what you
permit, you promote, right.
So you got to root out thatcancer ASAP, right.
So ethical quandary, and itwasn't just the past money that
maybe I'd lost, it's like thefuture money.
Like every day you put this offit could just get worse.
Right, confrontation you know Iwas afraid of confronting her,
(20:19):
right, legal and law.
Legal and like the law, likelaw enforcement.
I think we're most of us aretrained to be real followers,
right, so we don't like to bringup like legal issues, we just
want everything to be copacetic,so, yeah.
So I just kind of like brokethose things down and like where
(20:40):
all my stress was coming from,right.
And then I just like, brokendown any further, like no money,
well, I got to support myfamily, so I can't tolerate that
, right.
And two, like ethical stuffLike, at the end of the day, you
know, dentistry is not going tobe on my tombstone.
Money's not going to be on mytombstone, like, I don't care.
What I care about is, likeintegrity for myself, my respect
(21:03):
for myself, and then integrity,and like my relationships with
people I care about, right, andso this is an integrity gap.
I was not doing the best for myfamily by bringing in the money
.
I should be right, my wife wastaking care of the kids.
She was doing these things LikeI have responsibilities to them
.
This is an integrity gap.
For my other team members right, I brought in a leader who was
(21:24):
outside of me, like the secondleader, and this person maybe
didn't have the best valuesystem, right, so I wasn't
really supporting them as teammembers.
And then same with my patientsright, like, who knows what
could be happening there?
I mean, there's another fear,right.
Like, maybe she was stealingfrom patients too, like you
don't know.
Right, that's another majorfear.
Confrontation, yeah, like, youjust have to do it.
(21:46):
Right, we all love that quote.
You know you're only assuccessful as the number of
uncomfortable conversationsyou're willing to have.
Yeah, that's one of my favoritequotes.
You just lean into that, right.
Like, oh, this is going to suckand I'm going to be more
successful, because this sucks.
Paul Etchison (22:01):
See, I feel like every time I hear that quote, I
shudder, because I go, I know,because every time somebody says
that to me it's because I'mputting one off.
Josh Cochran (22:09):
But it's what gets me to jump in the ice cold
water right.
Every time I'm like, oh, I'lljust jump in the ice cold water,
right.
Every time I'm like, oh, I'lljust jump in the ice cold water
because I know it's going to bebetter off right, yeah.
So just do it right.
Paul Etchison (22:21):
What I love about what you're doing is I think
this is a great tool for allpractice owners because, like
what you're doing is you'retaking out a lot of owners are
stressed because there's just somuch going on and there's so
much unknown and it's like onceyou create a plan, you know that
comes from accurate information.
Once the plan is in place, theneverything feels like it just
(22:45):
falls into place.
It's like there's that unknownis gone and that you feel so
much better and you start movingforward and having forward
progress.
But what we see so often ispeople never get to that
exercise.
They just are just miserableand they just don't know why.
So talk about when was themoment that this all came to a
head and did she get carted out?
Tell the story.
Josh Cochran (23:04):
I don't even remember the story.
It's been seven, eight years.
I'm getting old, but yeah, Iremember.
Paul Etchison (23:11):
Wait, did you know it was happening that day?
Did you know the day it washappening?
Josh Cochran (23:15):
Can't remember, I'll tell you what I think
happened.
But typically when it's likethis, you choose a time to
confront somebody, usuallybefore work or after work, right
.
And so if, like, it's like 8.10, right, and most people showed
up between 8.10 and 8.20.
You're in their office withlike a third party, like a cop
or something right, and you'relike, look, this is what's going
(23:37):
on.
We're going to need you toleave right now, but this is
what's going on.
We've seen financialdiscrepancies.
You know the cops know we haveattorneys working on this.
As a person, I reallyappreciate you, but this is not
something.
If this is all true, that'sokay.
So I need you to send me homeBecause there's also EHR
(23:57):
liability too, right, easier tonever know.
So you have to follow all thoseEHR laws.
So you basically escort theperson out.
The team is there, hey, what'sgoing on?
Right?
And you can't make anyacquisition or assumptions,
right, when it's undersomebody's accountability that
(24:18):
the financials are correct andthe financials are not correct
and not matching up.
You know it's ourresponsibility because this is
what pays you guys right In theoffice, pays you as employees,
and make sure that that is sodisappointing.
Paul Etchison (24:32):
I feel like that is so disappointing that, like
we've got to script.
I feel like that is sodisappointing that we've got to
script something like thatbecause of legal reasons.
I would want to be like whatthe F is this and how could you?
What the F is this?
I trusted you.
What is wrong with you, withyour Land Rover, range Rover.
Yeah, the Range Rover, here Iam.
(24:53):
I'm driving a freaking Pintofrom 1974.
What the hell, dude?
How did she react?
Josh Cochran (24:58):
You know, there's always kind of that shock right
For them, like nobody can likementally be ready for that.
There's always shock, there'semotion.
You know there's embarrassment,right, and so they don't really
want to stick around, right,because they're so embarrassed.
(25:19):
So she went home.
Paul Etchison (25:21):
She went off.
I don't know where she went.
It was not carted off in theback of a cop car or anything.
Josh Cochran (25:25):
No, no, I mean, there's investigations that need
to take place, right.
There are attorneys that needto get hired and defense
attorneys and prosecutors andall those things right.
But you can't wait three months, right.
You got to like have someevidence, right, and then just
cut it right.
Otherwise it's just, it's likea cancer you got to got to get
(25:47):
rid of it.
Paul Etchison (25:48):
Is there a part of time where you know what's
going on but you have to allowit to continue to provide, to
gather evidence and you're justwatching money getting stolen?
Josh Cochran (25:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you've already had it happen
, you know what I mean.
So it's not like it's like it'salready been happening.
So it's not like that painful,right, you're just like.
Paul Etchison (26:10):
Well, I imagine, like I lost a lot of money and
the listeners have heard me talkabout this and you actually
know this I've lost a lot ofmoney, and the listeners have
heard me talk about this and youactually know this I've lost a
ton of money, not anembezzlement, but in a complete
false Ponzi scam, and theemotional toll it was like the
only thing I can compare it tois grieving, like you had to
grieve the loss and like you hadto like come to reality with
(26:34):
this new world that you justcan't believe.
I mean the amount of just howstupid I felt.
I mean, did you go through thatsame process?
Josh Cochran (26:42):
Yeah, there was definitely a process.
The money never triggers it forme, it's the emotional, it's
the human connection triggers itfor me.
Money, like I literally don'tcare, I don't know why.
Have you ever seen Band ofBrothers?
Mm-hmm, okay, one of the bestseasons of Band of Brothers was
the head guy, lieutenant, themain character.
(27:05):
They're finally in Germany.
He sees this like German kidsoldier on the other side, right
, and it's just a, it's a humanjust like him, it's a kid, it's
not like some bad, evil person,right, he looks at him, he
pauses for a second and then hejust clicks in, he shoots him.
And so I remember that momentand I think my brain is wired
(27:28):
that way that I do not haveattachment to physical things.
I don't have any attachment tophysical things.
So I learn from things veryquickly, like, wow, I really
effed up on that one.
Learn from this, don't eff upagain.
And then I'm past it.
Move forward.
That's good advice.
(27:49):
I don't think that's normal,but I do think, like they talk
about, like a shooter, right, hemisses a shot and then he keeps
shooting.
Right, he forgets about theshot, like in the NBA.
Right, that's what those guyssay.
It's shooter mentality.
And so I think when you're inbusiness, you have to be highly
attention to detail, like highlycaring about the people around
(28:10):
you and your business, right.
But when you lose right youjust have to move on and forget
about it.
Paul Etchison (28:18):
That's great advice.
I think what helped me a lot isI was part of this guy's group
and one of the guys in there waslike a wealth advisor and he's
like dude you don't know howoften I see this and he's like
if I had one piece of advice foryou, you did the best thing you
could with the information thatyou had.
You didn't try to make thishappen, you weren't careless,
(28:38):
you used the informationpresented to you and you made
the best decision you had, andit wasn't a good decision, so
all you can do is learn from itand move forward, and I found
that helped me a lot, and that'skind of what I'm hearing you
saying is like you recognizethat you know, it happened, I
did it, I learned from it, notgoing to happen again.
Josh Cochran (28:56):
Every time and I'm glad it happened when I was
small, right.
When we got big and seasoned,right, that loss could have been
30 times larger, yeah, so Ivalue those learning
opportunities early on and Iwant to say this to all the
dentists right, we're trained inschool.
Get perfect grades, don't makemistakes.
Right, we're trained asdentists like do perfect
(29:18):
procedures, don't make mistakes.
Right, we're trained in school.
Get perfect grades, don't makemistakes.
Right, we're trained asdentists like do perfect
procedures, don't make mistakes.
Right, you have to be verycareful with healthcare.
Right, because you're takingcare of somebody else's body.
Right, so that is the rightmentality to have.
But on the business side, fallfor it like make mistakes, own
those mistakes, learn from themand move forward.
Don't be so afraid to makemistakes on the business side,
because you'll really just haltthe growth of your business and
(29:39):
help your own learning potentialright, become the best version
of yourself if you're so afraidto make mistakes on the business
side or leadership or anythinglike that.
Paul Etchison (29:48):
All right.
So coming up to the end of this, I mean it happened, you went
through it.
You know we all hope nobodygoes through this, but I think
the statistics are somethinglike.
I mean it happens to 50% ofdental owners and sometimes I
wonder if that statistic isaccurate.
Sometimes I think if that'sincluding somebody stealing
electric toothbrushes, that's adifferent level of embezzlement
and theft, but who knows?
(30:08):
But either way, if you hadadvice for dental practice
owners that are listening rightnow, what would that be?
Josh Cochran (30:17):
I'm going to come full circle back to where we
started.
So, number one stop makingexcuses.
Learn the front office job andlearn every insurance, every
piece of insurance, until you'relike an A-plus student.
Know that in and out.
You will learn from thatexperience and preserve the
money that's already coming intoyour practice and you will find
(30:41):
so many opportunities to bringin more income for yourself.
It'll be the best return onyour time.
Number one do that.
Two, it will give you so muchpeace of mind.
Okay, you, you will understandwhat's going on.
You'll have peace of mind.
You will understand what'sgoing on.
You'll have peace of mind aboutit.
You will not stress.
(31:01):
You will be able to hold frontoffice team members accountable
If you lose your front officeteam member.
One of our buddies I rememberhim saying his front office team
member was having a baby rightand so he had like $250K worth
of checks sitting in a box underthe front office desk.
You remember that.
(31:22):
That is the best solution Ihave at this point.
This is this is dentistry,right.
This is ridiculous.
Right.
If you, as a dentist,understand it right, you can
train like hard-working, goodpeople to do a great job up
front.
Okay, okay, you are your numberone problem here, right In
relation to this, this is you.
So commit this year to learningfront office and learning
(31:44):
insurance.
It will just be a game changerin your life.
That is where I would come backto this.
Paul Etchison (31:53):
Awesome man.
But, dude, thank you so muchfor coming on, spend some time
with the listeners and me today.
Thanks for being vulnerable man.
These are things that a lot ofpeople I don't think would want
to admit.
We hate admitting our failures.
I love your attitude about it.
Just learn, go forward.
I think it's the right way tothink about things.
I think it's the way successfulpeople think and I honestly
think the attitude that youpresented today is a huge
(32:15):
indicator of the mindset ofsuccess.
This is how people you, I andour circle that we know Josh is
in a mastermind group with meand there are traits of people
in this group and it's prettyspecial and it's things like
this accountability and learningfrom mistakes, not dwelling on
it.
I think you're a little betterat not dwelling on it than me.
(32:37):
I like to lay in bed and thinkabout things that happened six
years ago that I did.
That was stupid.
I just lay there and I thinkabout something I said at a
party Like damn it, why didn't Isay that?
Josh Cochran (32:46):
Why didn't I say that?
Yeah, no, I appreciate you somuch, your take on things, your
approach to life.
I learned so much for you andmuch for you and, yeah, I'm very
grateful for your friendshipand thank you for your podcast
and your service to all thelisteners.
The amount of discipline andconsistency it takes to do a
podcast yeah, it's just amazing.
So thank you for that.
Paul Etchison (33:07):
Thanks so much.
Hey, and go check out Josh'spodcast on YouTube, the Dr Josh
Cochran Show.
I was a guest on it.
I will be sharing it with mylisteners when it comes out.
But great conversations onthere.
I think a lot of people wouldreally enjoy just the banter
that you have and the thingsthat you talk about.
So go check that out, listeners.
Thank you so much for tuning inand we'll talk to you next time
.
Embezzlement.
It is a dirty word that no onewants to think about, but it
happens more often than youthink.
My personal friend, dr JoshCochran, experienced it
firsthand at his practice andtoday we're going to hear about
how it happened and why it tookhim so long to notice.
You're going to leave thisepisode knowing the signs of
embezzlement, how to take actionand, most importantly, what you
(00:23):
can do to make sure that itnever happens to you.
You are listening to DentalPractice Heroes, where we help
you to create a team andsystem-driven dental practice,
one that allows you to practiceless and make more money.
I'm Dr Paul Etcheson, a dentalcoach, author of two books on
dental practice management andthe owner of a five-doctor
practice in the south suburbs ofChicago.
(00:43):
I wanna show you how beingintentional about ownership can
create a practice that supportsyour life instead of consuming
it.
So if you're ready to create atrue business that runs without
you, you're in the right place.
Let's get started.
(01:03):
Hello and welcome back to theDental Practice Heroes podcast.
So excited for my guest today, agood friend of mine, dr Josh
Cochran, and man, this guy has agreat just a long list of
things he's done.
He's grown a dental group fromscratch to like 160 team members
, lots of locations he exited,spent more time with his family.
(01:24):
Just recently he's a realestate developer over 150
million in development with hisuh construction company, his
development and constructioncompany, cm development and
construction.
And right now he's helpingpeople with tax mitigation and
investment strategies throughcochran capital.
And his latest project, as ifhe didn't have enough to do, is
the dr josh cochran show andthat's on youtube and where you
would get a podcast.
So, man, he's done a lot ofthings.
(01:45):
This is somebody who personallyspent many hours with me me
when I was on my practice.
He was my home base man becausehim and I were going through
the same thing, and so muchappreciate you for that, josh,
and appreciate just being yourfriend.
So glad that you made it on thepodcast.
I'm excited about our topic.
Josh Cochran (02:03):
So glad that you made it on the podcast.
I'm excited about our topic.
Yeah, happy to be here, paul.
It's a pleasure, always fun,and hopefully we can provide
some good stories and thingsthat will really resonate with
people and help them on theirown journey.
Paul Etchison (02:13):
So, yeah, it's great because if you clicked on
this podcast because of thetitle, you probably know what
we're talking about.
But we're going to talk aboutembezzlement today and before me
and Josh hit record.
I was just like I just said,man, I was like you are the only
person I'm good friends withthat this happened to.
And he's like oh thanks, thanksfor hitting me where I'm
vulnerable.
That's really good.
(02:34):
So I just asked him man, canyou come on?
Let's just talk about thisexperience.
So Josh, man, set the stage forus.
Can you give us a quick versionof what your practice setup was
at the time that this happenedto you?
Josh Cochran (02:44):
So this was like general story associated for
probably three years, right.
And I just always had that needto paint my own business right,
like I just needed to buildsomething and locally things,
practices had been done the waythey've been done for 30 years.
(03:05):
I didn't really see innovation,I didn't see really anybody
committed to the future orcommitted to what patients
wanted, right.
So I decided that like, look,I'm going to do it how I think
it should be done and I'm goingto do a startup to do that.
And, as you know and everyonelistening here has been through
new endeavors, you know you canread the books, you can go to
(03:26):
the conferences, but the reallearning comes from the
application.
You just got to do it right,right.
So I think you know I did thewhole process, found a location,
went through all that and youknow, when it was finally time,
like the session was wrapping up, you know you got to start
setting things up software, blah, blah, blah employees, and for
(03:46):
office they didn't really haveanybody, right.
So I just put out ads.
And what's interesting aboutcertain industries is there's
literally no education systemfor the job role.
So when there's no educationsystem for the job role, you
don't know what you're going toget and you have no idea the
(04:07):
level of training right.
And I think one of the biggestfailures in dentistry is
dentists should all learninsurance.
We should all learn frontoffice right.
Is the money part of ourbusiness?
It's so important.
So when people talk to me nowlike the first thing I say is
learn front office.
Like force yourself to do itright, because you spend all
this money on education like adoctor's job and like doctor
(04:28):
production right and you'reproducing X amount per hour as a
doctor.
Like why learn like a 20, 25hour, $25 an hour job?
Right, it makes no sense.
Right, it seems like a massivewaste of time but like now where
I'm standing, if I ever wentback into dentistry I would know
insurance and front office likeso well.
(04:50):
One is it's the money coming inyour door, right, and so you got
to like audit financial, makesure everything comes in.
That really ties into theembezzlement piece, but the
other pieces are is like there'sso much opportunity.
Like the highest income dentistI know knows insurance back and
forth.
Whenever he gets like aninteresting insurance come in
(05:10):
the door, he figures out likewhere that came from, why it
came from how can he optimize itright, and he has.
He makes so much money everyyear like doing the same amount
of work we're doing right,making 10 times less right, 20
times less.
Because he's're doing right,making 10 times less right, 20
times less.
Because he's optimized it right.
He figures out what patients'needs are and he delivers on
(05:31):
those needs.
So that's probably the biggesttake home I would say today,
just on the front end, is likeforce yourself to learn front
office and learn insurance well,and then you can actually hold.
When you bring these people inwhere there's no education
system, you can actually holdthem accountable right, because
you've done it, you know it, soyou can train them and hold them
accountable.
Paul Etchison (05:51):
A lot of people that reach out to me for
coaching.
I say, like what was the thingthat happened that caused you to
reach out?
And a lot of them just say,like my front end is just a mess
and I don't know what to dowith it.
And I just don't know what totell them to do because I don't
understand any of it.
And there was just times when Iwas putting together my
OmniPractice program I sat downwith my front desk lead and I
(06:13):
said show me all this stuff.
And what's interesting is it'snot the mystery you think it is.
It just requires a few hours ofjust sitting up there because
you know more than you think.
You just don't know exactlywhat they're doing.
Do you have any recommendationsfor people on how they might
actually learn more about thefront desk and the admin part of
(06:35):
their practices, the insurancepart?
Josh Cochran (06:37):
Yeah.
So it's always based likeeducation, right, and then doing
so, educationalize, read bookson it right, but then you have
to apply it.
I also think Travis Campbelllike.
I've never signed up for hisstuff, but when I see his posts
and stuff I'm like, oh gosh, youhave to learn this stuff, right
?
So I think Travis Campbellwould be a good resource.
So learn it.
(06:57):
But then, like Paul said, like,start doing it.
Like go up front and startdoing it right.
That's the best way to learn.
You will have so much more peaceof mind now that you know
what's going on up front, right,and you will.
I tell you, you will make somuch more money.
I can't even tell you, right,it's not about making money.
It's like making money indentistry is very hard.
(07:18):
Revenues don't go up, but costsdo right Every year, or getting
the same insurance for you 30years ago, right, or at least
benefits.
So it's like you have to figurethis out so you don't go crazy,
just making no money andstressed out and doing volume.
Dentistry.
It's just like own that frontoffice, you'll be so much
(07:39):
happier.
Okay, let's go back to my story.
So, because I was makingexcuses, why not to find my pain
point and own it.
I'm a dentist, I'll findsomebody to do this.
Yeah, I mean, I can just paysomebody 20 bucks.
Why would I learn this?
I went out, put out ads, startedinterviewing folks right, we
all read like interview, likehow to do it best.
(08:00):
And you know, I did my best Icould and maybe interviewed
three, five people and found awoman and I actually had filled
in at her office one time.
I don't know if we did thatthen, but she seemed great.
I brought her on right and Iwas like okay, I'm going to do
the dental side, the clinical,I'm going to focus on this.
I need you to run the frontoffice Like.
(08:21):
You know how to do this, this isyour experience.
But how do you even vet them?
Because you don't even know,right, you don't really know.
This is all just like you'retrusting your instincts and
during that first year you knowyou're just so busy that you'd
rather trust than trust wouldverify, right, I don't even know
how to verify, and so you havelittle things that go on in your
(08:42):
head like and so you havelittle things that go on in your
head like huh, like that seemsa little off, or gosh, I wish I
knew if that really was how itwas, but I just don't know
enough, so I'm just going toaccept it and focus on what I do
know, what I can control right,can you think of a?
Paul Etchison (08:55):
specific situation.
Josh Cochran (08:57):
You know, you see like write-offs, right, or you
see like reimbursements, andyou're like that seems off to me
, right, but I don't really know.
Or like patient's accounts onbigger cases, like implant cases
.
You know, sometimes it'd belike, oh, we owe this person
like $1,500.
And you're like you're runningthrough it and you're like going
through like the what wascharged and what was reimbursed,
(09:19):
and like the insurance company,and you're just like this seems
off to me, right, and you knowwe'd be doing the end of days,
right, but like, even on the endof day report, I'm like like I
don't really understand how thisworks, like I'm checking things
, that kind of jives, butthere's like still like all
these barriers.
You don't really understand.
And so you know.
(09:40):
But you see your revenue goingup every month, right, and so
you're like, hey, we're growing.
You see patients aren't pissedoff.
So you know, like customerservices, these, and as you're
hiring new team members, you seelike they're getting along
pretty well up front.
You don't want to rock the boat, right, and you don't want to
micromanage people and give thePE, give people the feeling that
you don't want to micromanagepeople and give the people the
feeling that you don't trustthem.
(10:00):
Right, like trust, but verifywas a really good phrase for me
to learn.
So part of this is I delegatedpayroll, which is not a good
idea.
Like super busy, right, Idelegate payroll.
You delegate payroll.
Okay, when you delegate payrollto a team member who pays
themself, right, it pays otherpeople, yeah, now, and they
(10:22):
don't have like an HR background.
They don't have, like thatisn't where they came from
writer, bookkeeping or trainedthat way.
Me too, you know, I'm going totake full accountability for any
like bad happenings in my life.
Right, like, I chose to hirethis person.
I chose to not learn frontoffice.
I chose to delegate a payrollto them, right, because I was so
busy.
I don't want people to missthat as a dentist, right?
(10:45):
Ultimate accountability.
Paul Etchison (10:47):
You know what?
There's so many peoplelistening right now that are
doing the exact same thing notverifying.
They're trusting and I thinkmany people are just not even
looking.
I would say that I had somereports that I would run.
I don't know if they're surefree, but I mean like where the
write-offs were very differentthan the anticipated write-offs.
If it was had to over a certainpercentage it would show up
(11:09):
Looking for after hours computeractivity.
But it's like you can onlyspend so much time looking but
you have to, you have to bite.
Josh Cochran (11:18):
This is not pushed enough.
In dentistry you have to bitethe bullet.
You have to learn it front toback so you can set up the
systems and hold peopleaccountable.
So, getting back to the story,so you know, on some levels very
successful.
I don't remember what our firstyear revenue was.
First, it wasn't very good thefirst couple of months.
It started to grow by the endof the first year.
(11:44):
Maybe I don't know what it was,maybe a million, right
Collected, maybe a million.
My first year, after beingsuper slow, I was like, wow, I
worked all this hard.
I was still working as anassociate as well, right, but
working my butt off, workinglate, whatever, 14 hour days,
you know, 12 hours clinically,plus days on top, hours on top
of that, just grinding.
And I looked at the financialsfor the year and I made no money
.
Paul Etchison (12:01):
No money.
Josh Cochran (12:01):
Nothing.
Paul Etchison (12:02):
Zero.
Josh Cochran (12:03):
Zero, zero dollars .
So I'm like, huh, okay, that'sinteresting, right, worked my
butt off, no income.
Paul Etchison (12:10):
Like no money after your W-2 or no money.
Josh Cochran (12:13):
No, like I hadn't even been paying myself.
Oh, okay, so no W-2 either.
So it wasn't no profitability,it was just like no money.
So it's like we're getting aton of new patients, we're like
taking care of people, we'regetting a ton of good reviews,
like things are growing.
We're hiring team members, likethings are going really well,
but we're making no money.
Okay, and so it's like, okay,there's a red flag right, like I
(12:40):
need to stop and analyze whatI'm doing.
Paul Etchison (12:42):
What was the relationship like with this
person personally, you and thisperson?
Josh Cochran (12:46):
Yeah, I mean I liked her a lot, we got along,
we communicated well, but Ialways had concerns, just
because her life and herlifestyle are my life and my
lifestyle, right.
I'm like 100% family values.
I'm like super work ethic notflashy, right.
I was driving my 2007 Toyota4Runner, right.
(13:07):
Like just different valuesystem, right.
So you have concerns, but youwant to practice radical
acceptance of others, right.
So, anyway, so that was thefirst year, okay, and, as you
know, like one of the bestcatalysts in life, you have a
coaching business.
You're very good.
I try to send folks to you andour other buddies who coach
because you guys are great.
(13:28):
You've done it Like 100%believe in your ability to be a
catalyst for others, right,thank you.
So they're not banging theirhead against the wall, they're
getting where they want to be,whatever that is as quick as
possible.
So, you know, I think I broughton a coach at that point and
I'm trying to remember how.
But John Meese, do you rememberJohn Meese?
Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah.
So I signed up for John Meese's.
(13:48):
It's like, hey, let's get thereas quick as possible.
And I don't remember exactlywhen.
That was maybe a year, year anda half in, and John has his
coaches that work with him okay,and they have one that works
with you.
And the one with the frontoffice team member okay, and the
person with John Mises teammember, like was meeting with my
front office, right.
And then she started picking upsigns Like this was not her
(14:11):
first rodeo, right, this womanhad lots of reps, so she's
picking up these signs becauseher spidey sense is finally
tuned for this, because she'sseen it over the years, right?
So she and John come to me andJosh and they're like Josh, like
you know, have you ever thoughtabout, you know, this team
member potentially embezzlingfrom you?
(14:32):
And I was like I mean, I justdon't know enough.
Like I always have thoseworries, right, but is that my
fear?
Like I don't know.
And then they started likelisting off of, like the signs
of embezzlement, right, and thiskind of like locked it in for
me.
So reluctance to share dutiesor delegate, right, like this
(14:52):
person would stonewall, likenope, I'll handle all that.
Nope, I'm good.
Like, nope, you do this, thisis my job, I do this.
Right, she was very defensiveabout her stuff and anybody
getting involved in anything ofhers.
It was all her.
That's a total red flag, right,and one of the solutions to
embezzlement, I mean long-term.
I think we might talk aboutthis pre-call like AI, right,
(15:15):
it's like AI gets more involvedin front of office.
It's like AI gets more involvedin front of office.
Ai gets involved in theinsurance piece, like you're
going to be able to code forthese types of things and
identify risks, and I mean it'llget a lot better through AI.
Yeah, but that's major one.
Unusual working hours you knowdoing things and no one else is
there, because you know that'swhen they can get the stuff done
.
I don't want to see peopleseeing defensive or secretive
(15:38):
behavior.
Lifestyle match this girl was.
I've been driving my old Toyota, beat up Toyota 4Runner right.
She's driving a Range Rover, ablack, nice, newer Range Rover.
It might have been brand new.
I mean super expensive, right,and so those are kind of red
flags, right.
(15:58):
I'm over here and my entireincome for the year was zero,
yeah, and I'm putting in crazyhours, right, and so those are
kind of red flags right.
Like I'm over here and myentire income for the year was
zero and I'm putting in crazyhours right and grinding, and
she's driving a Range Roverright From the outside it's like
what?
Are you some sort of idiot,josh?
Apparently I am, yeah.
Paul Etchison (16:16):
Well, I'm sure in retrospect you probably look
back and you're like damn damn,oh yeah, damn that time.
That time it's like that wholething.
You can't read the label on theprescription when you're inside
the bottle.
You know what I mean.
It's like yeah.
Josh Cochran (16:28):
I have financial troubles.
She was always short on money,right.
So it's like OK, this, if she'sgoing to go get more money,
where is she going to get thatright?
Well, if she's controlling allthe money in your office, it
makes it pretty easy for her,right, just how she is as a
human being, with her spendingRefusal to take time off her
(16:48):
vacation, right.
If you take time off hervacation, then someone else has
to do your job, right, and thenthey might notice what's going
on.
So, yeah, she didn't takevacations either.
You know, I thought it was agood thing because it was like
oh, it works for a work ethiclike me.
But then when you look at itfrom this perspective, you're
like oh, and then like, payrollwas just kind of like didn't
always like kind of match how Ithought and the bonus system
(17:10):
didn't really match how Ithought.
It's just like those kind oflike little fakes.
So Mies and this team member ofhis like kind of clued me in.
I started looking at things.
Now, I really started lookingat payroll, I really started
looking at all these things andwe just started looking at
numbers and picking it up and itwasn't good.
(17:32):
So we hired Prosperident rightto help with this.
They put together a report, wesent it to like the cops, right,
hey, this is what's going on,let the team member know.
And just kind of went throughthat whole rigmarole, right,
which is hard because you don'thave like another office manager
(17:53):
to take over, right, you don'thave like another office manager
who's better of a financial.
You don't have another officemanager who's better of a
financial.
So you're going from what wasstable but maybe not good with
this embezzlement stuff, to likewho do you even have to replace
them, and where do you evenfind somebody?
And how do you know you'redoing better next time?
Paul Etchison (18:10):
I know one of the recommendations is, if we do
find out, we are not supposed toconfront the person.
When you found out, what wasthat moment like, where you knew
it was true?
Josh Cochran (18:19):
Yeah, I mean it's super stressful.
It's super stressful that youcare about this person, right?
I mean you don't want to accusesomebody of something that may
not be true, right?
So you A care about this person.
You feel like a jerk, right?
You have some self-doubts.
You always doubt, even if thenumbers are in front of you,
Well.
And then the business, right,when you're just super busy, you
(18:42):
know you get all those newpatients.
You're trying to serve yourpatients, you're trying to serve
your other team members.
Do you really want to add likeone more thing, one more giant
problem to solve, to the pot ofgiant problems you're already
facing, right, and you don'twant to do that either.
And I don't know about you,Edge.
But like, if I'm feeling stress, I just like write down like
(19:02):
where all my stress is comingfrom.
So, step one, identify it,right.
Step two, kind of break it down, Like why is those things
stressful, right, and now, likeI'm not feeling, like I'm just
not like ambiguously feelingstress and just coping with it.
I'm like what is it?
Why is it there?
And then I just commit tomaking that my top priority.
(19:24):
Whatever my stress is right,Not hide from it, not hope it
goes away.
I just don't do that anymore.
Paul Etchison (19:31):
Talk about how you utilize that in this
situation.
Josh Cochran (19:34):
This is a tool I use now just identifying my
stress, breaking it down, andthen clear action steps.
Right, what clears stress?
Action, right.
So, like my issues here were nomoney right, the practice
wasn't making money like itshould.
We had the leader of thepractice, after myself maybe
(19:56):
being having like an ethicalquandary, right, and so what you
permit, you promote, right.
So you got to root out thatcancer ASAP, right.
So ethical quandary, and itwasn't just the past money that
maybe I'd lost, it's like thefuture money.
Like every day you put this offit could just get worse.
Right, confrontation you know Iwas afraid of confronting her,
(20:19):
right, legal and law.
Legal and like the law, likelaw enforcement.
I think we're most of us aretrained to be real followers,
right, so we don't like to bringup like legal issues, we just
want everything to be copacetic,so, yeah.
So I just kind of like brokethose things down and like where
(20:40):
all my stress was coming from,right.
And then I just like, brokendown any further, like no money,
well, I got to support myfamily, so I can't tolerate that
, right.
And two, like ethical stuffLike, at the end of the day, you
know, dentistry is not going tobe on my tombstone.
Money's not going to be on mytombstone, like, I don't care.
What I care about is, likeintegrity for myself, my respect
(21:03):
for myself, and then integrity,and like my relationships with
people I care about, right, andso this is an integrity gap.
I was not doing the best for myfamily by bringing in the money
.
I should be right, my wife wastaking care of the kids.
She was doing these things LikeI have responsibilities to them
.
This is an integrity gap.
For my other team members right, I brought in a leader who was
(21:24):
outside of me, like the secondleader, and this person maybe
didn't have the best valuesystem, right, so I wasn't
really supporting them as teammembers.
And then same with my patientsright, like, who knows what
could be happening there?
I mean, there's another fear,right.
Like, maybe she was stealingfrom patients too, like you
don't know.
Right, that's another majorfear.
Confrontation, yeah, like, youjust have to do it.
(21:46):
Right, we all love that quote.
You know you're only assuccessful as the number of
uncomfortable conversationsyou're willing to have.
Yeah, that's one of my favoritequotes.
You just lean into that, right.
Like, oh, this is going to suckand I'm going to be more
successful, because this sucks.
Paul Etchison (22:01):
See, I feel like every time I hear that quote, I
shudder, because I go, I know,because every time somebody says
that to me it's because I'mputting one off.
Josh Cochran (22:09):
But it's what gets me to jump in the ice cold
water right.
Every time I'm like, oh, I'lljust jump in the ice cold water,
right.
Every time I'm like, oh, I'lljust jump in the ice cold water
because I know it's going to bebetter off right, yeah.
So just do it right.
Paul Etchison (22:21):
What I love about what you're doing is I think
this is a great tool for allpractice owners because, like
what you're doing is you'retaking out a lot of owners are
stressed because there's just somuch going on and there's so
much unknown and it's like onceyou create a plan, you know that
comes from accurate information.
Once the plan is in place, theneverything feels like it just
(22:45):
falls into place.
It's like there's that unknownis gone and that you feel so
much better and you start movingforward and having forward
progress.
But what we see so often ispeople never get to that
exercise.
They just are just miserableand they just don't know why.
So talk about when was themoment that this all came to a
head and did she get carted out?
Tell the story.
Josh Cochran (23:04):
I don't even remember the story.
It's been seven, eight years.
I'm getting old, but yeah, Iremember.
Paul Etchison (23:11):
Wait, did you know it was happening that day?
Did you know the day it washappening?
Josh Cochran (23:15):
Can't remember, I'll tell you what I think
happened.
But typically when it's likethis, you choose a time to
confront somebody, usuallybefore work or after work, right
.
And so if, like, it's like 8.10, right, and most people showed
up between 8.10 and 8.20.
You're in their office withlike a third party, like a cop
or something right, and you'relike, look, this is what's going
(23:37):
on.
We're going to need you toleave right now, but this is
what's going on.
We've seen financialdiscrepancies.
You know the cops know we haveattorneys working on this.
As a person, I reallyappreciate you, but this is not
something.
If this is all true, that'sokay.
So I need you to send me homeBecause there's also EHR
(23:57):
liability too, right, easier tonever know.
So you have to follow all thoseEHR laws.
So you basically escort theperson out.
The team is there, hey, what'sgoing on?
Right?
And you can't make anyacquisition or assumptions,
right, when it's undersomebody's accountability that
(24:18):
the financials are correct andthe financials are not correct
and not matching up.
You know it's ourresponsibility because this is
what pays you guys right In theoffice, pays you as employees,
and make sure that that is sodisappointing.
Paul Etchison (24:32):
I feel like that is so disappointing that, like
we've got to script.
I feel like that is sodisappointing that we've got to
script something like thatbecause of legal reasons.
I would want to be like whatthe F is this and how could you?
What the F is this?
I trusted you.
What is wrong with you, withyour Land Rover, range Rover.
Yeah, the Range Rover, here Iam.
(24:53):
I'm driving a freaking Pintofrom 1974.
What the hell, dude?
How did she react?
Josh Cochran (24:58):
You know, there's always kind of that shock right
For them, like nobody can likementally be ready for that.
There's always shock, there'semotion.
You know there's embarrassment,right, and so they don't really
want to stick around, right,because they're so embarrassed.
(25:19):
So she went home.
Paul Etchison (25:21):
She went off.
I don't know where she went.
It was not carted off in theback of a cop car or anything.
Josh Cochran (25:25):
No, no, I mean, there's investigations that need
to take place, right.
There are attorneys that needto get hired and defense
attorneys and prosecutors andall those things right.
But you can't wait three months, right.
You got to like have someevidence, right, and then just
cut it right.
Otherwise it's just, it's likea cancer you got to got to get
(25:47):
rid of it.
Paul Etchison (25:48):
Is there a part of time where you know what's
going on but you have to allowit to continue to provide, to
gather evidence and you're justwatching money getting stolen?
Josh Cochran (25:59):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you've already had it happen
, you know what I mean.
So it's not like it's like it'salready been happening.
So it's not like that painful,right, you're just like.
Paul Etchison (26:10):
Well, I imagine, like I lost a lot of money and
the listeners have heard me talkabout this and you actually
know this I've lost a lot ofmoney, and the listeners have
heard me talk about this and youactually know this I've lost a
ton of money, not anembezzlement, but in a complete
false Ponzi scam, and theemotional toll it was like the
only thing I can compare it tois grieving, like you had to
grieve the loss and like you hadto like come to reality with
(26:34):
this new world that you justcan't believe.
I mean the amount of just howstupid I felt.
I mean, did you go through thatsame process?
Josh Cochran (26:42):
Yeah, there was definitely a process.
The money never triggers it forme, it's the emotional, it's
the human connection triggers itfor me.
Money, like I literally don'tcare, I don't know why.
Have you ever seen Band ofBrothers?
Mm-hmm, okay, one of the bestseasons of Band of Brothers was
the head guy, lieutenant, themain character.
(27:05):
They're finally in Germany.
He sees this like German kidsoldier on the other side, right
, and it's just a, it's a humanjust like him, it's a kid, it's
not like some bad, evil person,right, he looks at him, he
pauses for a second and then hejust clicks in, he shoots him.
And so I remember that momentand I think my brain is wired
(27:28):
that way that I do not haveattachment to physical things.
I don't have any attachment tophysical things.
So I learn from things veryquickly, like, wow, I really
effed up on that one.
Learn from this, don't eff upagain.
And then I'm past it.
Move forward.
That's good advice.
(27:49):
I don't think that's normal,but I do think, like they talk
about, like a shooter, right, hemisses a shot and then he keeps
shooting.
Right, he forgets about theshot, like in the NBA.
Right, that's what those guyssay.
It's shooter mentality.
And so I think when you're inbusiness, you have to be highly
attention to detail, like highlycaring about the people around
(28:10):
you and your business, right.
But when you lose right youjust have to move on and forget
about it.
Paul Etchison (28:18):
That's great advice.
I think what helped me a lot isI was part of this guy's group
and one of the guys in there waslike a wealth advisor and he's
like dude you don't know howoften I see this and he's like
if I had one piece of advice foryou, you did the best thing you
could with the information thatyou had.
You didn't try to make thishappen, you weren't careless,
(28:38):
you used the informationpresented to you and you made
the best decision you had, andit wasn't a good decision, so
all you can do is learn from itand move forward, and I found
that helped me a lot, and that'skind of what I'm hearing you
saying is like you recognizethat you know, it happened, I
did it, I learned from it, notgoing to happen again.
Josh Cochran (28:56):
Every time and I'm glad it happened when I was
small, right.
When we got big and seasoned,right, that loss could have been
30 times larger, yeah, so Ivalue those learning
opportunities early on and Iwant to say this to all the
dentists right, we're trained inschool.
Get perfect grades, don't makemistakes.
Right, we're trained asdentists like do perfect
(29:18):
procedures, don't make mistakes.
Right, we're trained in school.
Get perfect grades, don't makemistakes.
Right, we're trained asdentists like do perfect
procedures, don't make mistakes.
Right, you have to be verycareful with healthcare.
Right, because you're takingcare of somebody else's body.
Right, so that is the rightmentality to have.
But on the business side, fallfor it like make mistakes, own
those mistakes, learn from themand move forward.
Don't be so afraid to makemistakes on the business side,
because you'll really just haltthe growth of your business and
(29:39):
help your own learning potentialright, become the best version
of yourself if you're so afraidto make mistakes on the business
side or leadership or anythinglike that.
Paul Etchison (29:48):
All right.
So coming up to the end of this, I mean it happened, you went
through it.
You know we all hope nobodygoes through this, but I think
the statistics are somethinglike.
I mean it happens to 50% ofdental owners and sometimes I
wonder if that statistic isaccurate.
Sometimes I think if that'sincluding somebody stealing
electric toothbrushes, that's adifferent level of embezzlement
and theft, but who knows?
(30:08):
But either way, if you hadadvice for dental practice
owners that are listening rightnow, what would that be?
Josh Cochran (30:17):
I'm going to come full circle back to where we
started.
So, number one stop makingexcuses.
Learn the front office job andlearn every insurance, every
piece of insurance, until you'relike an A-plus student.
Know that in and out.
You will learn from thatexperience and preserve the
money that's already coming intoyour practice and you will find
(30:41):
so many opportunities to bringin more income for yourself.
It'll be the best return onyour time.
Number one do that.
Two, it will give you so muchpeace of mind.
Okay, you, you will understandwhat's going on.
You'll have peace of mind.
You will understand what'sgoing on.
You'll have peace of mind aboutit.
You will not stress.
(31:01):
You will be able to hold frontoffice team members accountable
If you lose your front officeteam member.
One of our buddies I rememberhim saying his front office team
member was having a baby rightand so he had like $250K worth
of checks sitting in a box underthe front office desk.
You remember that.
(31:22):
That is the best solution Ihave at this point.
This is this is dentistry,right.
This is ridiculous.
Right.
If you, as a dentist,understand it right, you can
train like hard-working, goodpeople to do a great job up
front.
Okay, okay, you are your numberone problem here, right In
relation to this, this is you.
So commit this year to learningfront office and learning
(31:44):
insurance.
It will just be a game changerin your life.
That is where I would come backto this.
Paul Etchison (31:53):
Awesome man.
But, dude, thank you so muchfor coming on, spend some time
with the listeners and me today.
Thanks for being vulnerable man.
These are things that a lot ofpeople I don't think would want
to admit.
We hate admitting our failures.
I love your attitude about it.
Just learn, go forward.
I think it's the right way tothink about things.
I think it's the way successfulpeople think and I honestly
think the attitude that youpresented today is a huge
(32:15):
indicator of the mindset ofsuccess.
This is how people you, I andour circle that we know Josh is
in a mastermind group with meand there are traits of people
in this group and it's prettyspecial and it's things like
this accountability and learningfrom mistakes, not dwelling on
it.
I think you're a little betterat not dwelling on it than me.
(32:37):
I like to lay in bed and thinkabout things that happened six
years ago that I did.
That was stupid.
I just lay there and I thinkabout something I said at a
party Like damn it, why didn't Isay that?
Josh Cochran (32:46):
Why didn't I say that?
Yeah, no, I appreciate you somuch, your take on things, your
approach to life.
I learned so much for you andmuch for you and, yeah, I'm very
grateful for your friendshipand thank you for your podcast
and your service to all thelisteners.
The amount of discipline andconsistency it takes to do a
podcast yeah, it's just amazing.
So thank you for that.
Paul Etchison (33:07):
Thanks so much.
Hey, and go check out Josh'spodcast on YouTube, the Dr Josh
Cochran Show.
I was a guest on it.
I will be sharing it with mylisteners when it comes out.
But great conversations onthere.
I think a lot of people wouldreally enjoy just the banter
that you have and the thingsthat you talk about.
So go check that out, listeners.
Thank you so much for tuning inand we'll talk to you next time
.
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