August 18, 2025 • 23 mins
That dreaded, “I need to talk to you about something?” It’s a conversation no one looks forward to, but every owner has to deal with. Whether it's an underperforming employee or tension in the office, this episode will give you the tools to address issues that can make or break workplace culture.
You’ll learn how to confront underperformance and team conflict head-on, prevent problems before they spiral, and get your team back on track. Plus, we also share a quick test to help you decide if it's time to let an employee go!
Topics discussed in this episode:
- Why owners are part of the problem
- How to address underperformance and employee complaints
- The do’s and don’ts of handling team conflict
- Dr. Henry’s method for getting honest feedback
- Your role as a leader in shaping team culture
- How to decide when to let someone go
- The green, yellow, red performance framework
Take Control of Your Practice and Your Life
We help dentists take more time off while making more money through systematization, team empowerment, and creating leadership teams.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paul Etchison (00:02):
We've all kept an employee around for too long.
Some of us just might have onein our practice right now, and
the longer we avoid it, the moredamage it does to the rest of
the team in the practice.
So today we're talking abouthow to confront underperformance
and team conflict head on.
You'll learn why you can'talways be the nice boss, how to
(00:22):
get honest feedback from yourteam and a simple test to help
you decide if someone reallybelongs at your practice or it's
time to say goodbye.
You won't want to miss this one.
Stay tuned.
You are listening to the DentalPractice Heroes podcast, where
we teach dentists how to stepback from the chair, empower
their team and build a practicethat gives them their life back.
(00:43):
I'm your host, dr Paul Etcheson, dental coach, author of two
books on dental practicemanagement and owner of a large
four-doctor practice that runswith ease while I work just one
clinical day a week.
If you're ready for a practicethat supports your life instead
of consuming it, you're in theright place.
My team of legendary dentalcoaches and I are here to guide
you on your path fromoverwhelmed owner to dental
(01:06):
practice hero.
Let's get started.
Hello everyone, and welcome backto the Dental Practice Heroes
podcast.
I'm your host, dr Paul Edgison.
I'm joined with my DPH coaches,dr Steve Markowitz, owner of a
six practice group on the EastCoast, and Dr Henry Ernst, 18 op
.
Practice in the Carolinas.
(01:27):
All two days or less dentistry.
We are not dentists thatpractice a lot, but we're
running our businesses.
So today we're going to talkabout a personal kind of like
personnel issue.
It's the hard part aboutdentistry and being an owner is
the people stuff, the staffthings, and we're talking about
that situation where we know ateam member is underperforming.
(01:49):
We've got team members lettingus know about it and here we've
got this team member.
We say how do we approach this?
Because we know we're going tohurt their feelings and we want
to make everything right.
We want everyone to worktogether, but just sitting in
your office and being like damnit, why can't they just all get
along and do what they'resupposed to do?
Doesn't get it done.
Steve Markowitz (02:08):
And, steve, with 152 employees, I think
we'll kick it off with you Everyday we deal with that kind of
stuff and just to clarify,there's so many different
situations where this showsitself and this situation is the
person underperforming in theirjob or is it that the people
around them they're not gettingalong or they're not seeing it?
What are we trying to answerhere specifically?
Paul Etchison (02:29):
yeah, I would say , you know, just for sake of
giving more direction, I wouldsay let's start with
underperforming.
So underperforming.
Steve Markowitz (02:35):
This should be the easiest, because we should
have very clear expectations onevery role.
In our office, we should behaving consistent discussions
and meetings and one-on-ones orcheck-ins so we give the
employer, the team member, theopportunity for us to share
where they're at.
The problem is that we're, asleaders or dentists, never
(02:58):
consistent enough doing thosethings, so they kind of fall
through the cracks.
And then when we start to seethese little things that are
signs that things aren't goingwell, we ignore them at first
and then we're dealing with themwhen they're these giant holes
and everything is on the fringeof breaking because we weren't
consistent and disciplinedenough to do it all the right
(03:20):
way along the way.
But this stuff happens.
That's how we work and we'redentists and this is the life
that we chose.
So how do we deal with it?
The first thing we need to dois we need to create a situation
where we can sit with thisperson and, if they're
underperforming, review theirjob description and what the
expectations are with them.
(03:41):
And what the expectations arewith them To this is Dave Ramsey
.
To be kind is to be clear.
So we need to have them seeexactly what we're seeing for
the expectations of their job.
Paul Etchison (03:54):
I think a lot of people listening and a lot of
dental owners are saying I don'twant to start with the
expectations.
What else can we do?
Steve Markowitz (04:00):
I mean even before that you need to have-.
Paul Etchison (04:02):
I don't want to set clear expectations.
How can I fix it?
Steve Markowitz (04:04):
That's perfectly fine.
Then you're going to enjoychaos, and that's perfectly fine
.
You need to accept it.
I'm okay with that.
The reason why you don't wantto set clear expectations is
because you are uncomfortableand you're being selfish as the
leader, as the owner.
You're saying my feelings ofdiscomfort are more important
than me.
Being honest with this person,who I want to be great, you're
(04:27):
not telling them that they'reunderperforming because you want
to make them feel like crap.
You want them to be better attheir job.
By not telling them that youare not allowing them to meet
their full potential.
So you're a selfish asshole.
Don't do that.
Full potential, so you're aselfish asshole.
Don't do that.
Be honest with the people thatyou're supposed to be serving,
(04:48):
that you're supposed to beemploying and supposed to be
developing.
Paul Etchison (04:51):
I love that.
Yeah, we have to set theexpectations.
It's a must, non-negotiable, socontinue.
I wanted to interrupt youbecause I know a lot of people
go through that.
They don't want to set theexpectations, they don't want to
have the conversation.
Steve Markowitz (05:04):
Yeah, and that's perfectly okay.
Don't be the owner, don't bethe boss, and that's okay too.
I don't think that that's anegative.
If you really don't want to dothose things, don't do them.
But then don't take on theresponsibility of the business
owner and say I want all thereward but none of the
responsibility.
That ain't going to work andthat's where you get yourself
(05:27):
into a lot of trouble.
Paul Etchison (05:27):
We need to start with setting the expectation.
Steve Markowitz (05:30):
Setting the expectation, understanding what
you want that person to do andthen, in the kindest way
possible, share with them whatyou're seeing.
The first way to changebehavior is to have that person
see things the way that you seethem.
So you can start with do yousee it the way I'm seeing it?
(05:50):
I'm going to share this, do yousee it differently?
And then let them share andthen show them.
Show them how you want it to bedone, and then watch them do it
.
And if they can't continuallymeet expectations or if it's a
capacity thing, then we need toeither put them in a different
seat if they're a good valuesfit, or we owe it to them to not
(06:14):
have them do that job.
It's not fair to them, or therest of the people on the team.
Paul Etchison (06:18):
Now let's do the second one.
The second situation wassomeone not getting along.
So we first talked about notmeeting expectations.
Now this was somebody.
This is Dr Steve.
We can't stand Cassandra.
She is out of control.
We get that a lot.
She's vaping in the bathroom.
Steve Markowitz (06:37):
It doesn't necessarily need to be me at
this point, but I thinkperspective is so interesting.
Think perspective is sointeresting.
I would recommend any leader orany manager to not just you
can't take just one person'sperspective.
You need to go in there and seefor yourself what actually is
happening and then you can learnand most often that person is
(06:59):
right.
But learn what's actuallyhappening and then guide that
conversation between thosepeople, if you're able to do it.
So if someone comes to me andsays Paul's being a jerk, I'm
like, okay, the first thing I'mgoing to do is I'm going to sit
there and listen.
I'm going to tell them.
If you're telling me this, Ineed you to know that I'm going
(07:22):
to do something about it.
And then, before they even opentheir mouth because I don't
want them just to gossip to mewe're going to.
If this is big enough for youto bring it to me, it's big
enough for me to want to changeit, I'll set that expectation.
And if they still share andwant to talk, then I will then
go and find and listen from myown perspective and get my own
(07:42):
information.
Paul Etchison (07:43):
And then the three of us, if I have to, the
three but I don't want you totell the person what I said
about them.
I just want you to fix it.
I don't want them to know Isaid bad things.
Steve Markowitz (07:55):
Then you don't want it to get better, and
that's okay too, but we aren'there to make things better.
It's either not painful enoughto make it better or you just
want me to feel a certain wayabout that person.
Those are the two things.
Paul Etchison (08:13):
So my options are don't tell me or we're going to
talk about it.
I remember where you and I werehaving a conversation not too
long ago about a similar thing,and you said that you tell your
team that if they don't want todo something about it.
You said something along thelines of if you tell me, I'm
going to do something about it,if you don't want me to do
something about it, go tell yourpillow.
Steve Markowitz (08:31):
Talk to your pillow.
That's what we said.
Yep, talk to your pillow.
That's what we say.
Yep, talk to your pillow.
I love that we're in aworkplace.
This is a professional setting.
I know that our offices areunique because we spend so much
time together, but it's aprofessional setting.
We need to be professional, andguess what professional people
do?
They solve issues.
So that's what we're going todo.
Paul Etchison (08:49):
Yeah, I love the way you say that, henry.
What's this bring up for?
Henry Ernst (08:51):
you.
I love it, steve.
Great information.
I feel like I'm just going totake a real world example.
So you know our practice is notlike Steve's.
I mean, we have about 35 teammembers, so you know there's
always stuff that happens oncein a while and maybe and what
I've found in my experience overthe years is these things tend
to bubble, and they tend tobubble up all at once for some
reason, and so we had an issueabout two months ago.
(09:15):
This is how it happens.
Hygienist you've had for yearsis like my right hand.
She's been with us about 11years now.
She came up to me and theclassic line here it is I have
to talk to you about somethingas soon as we hear that.
We're like oh crap.
It's going to okay, and it waslike on a friday night I'm like,
(09:36):
okay, let's go.
And so I was done with dinnerwith my family, I'm like, and I
just called, I said hit me withit, no pleasantries, just hit me
with it.
And then basically, you knowthat there's stuff going on and
stuff like that, and um, so whatI did is I had there's a survey
company, I think it's calledSurvey Hero, and you can put out
anonymous surveys veryimportant anonymous, right.
(09:59):
So I basically just put out anotice to the team.
I said listen, you know, Ialways want to make sure we're
providing the best care andproviding you with the best work
environment possible.
So we're going to put out somesurveys there.
And it was really great,actually, because I got some
really good feedback and stuff Iwasn't even thinking about, but
there were.
So there was about three teammembers that were all kind of
doing things here and there thatthey shouldn't have been doing,
(10:21):
and so it gave me the chance tojust sit down with everybody.
Some of them were really quick,like hey, paul, you're doing a
great job.
People said lots of greatthings about you.
You know, keep doing whatyou're doing.
Yeah, you're welcome, steve,you know, just so you know, in
our surveys and I always startwith the positive you know, hey,
you've been doing some greatthings and this and that, and I
appreciate your attention todetail.
(10:42):
However, you know some of yourteammates and this is important
when they hear it like that someof your teammates have said
that you're hanging out in thebreak room too much.
Teammates have said that you'rehanging out in the break room
too much.
You know, sometimes you're nothelping with sterilization and
you know what, when you do that,it forces work on everybody
else and it's not fair.
And then I give them a chance.
You know, do you feel likeyou're doing that and just have
(11:04):
the one-on-one and everythingelse that you were already
describing?
So, in this instance, make it apositive.
Make it where, hey, let's talkto everybody about it.
And the people that are gettingto like I think I heard on one
of your podcasts, Paul, I reallylove that you're talking about
how things get to red, yellowand green.
Yeah, that was from a recentbook I read.
Yeah, so the person that'sgetting to that red level, they
(11:25):
just are more stern Like listen,we can't have this anymore.
You can't hang out in the breakroom anymore.
You have to stay on task and ifthis is going to continue, then
the next step is we're going tohave to talk about your
employment future here.
So address it.
If you don't want this, thenyou're not going to be a
practice owner, because this isgoing to happen.
And if you're one of theseclients that we talk to here and
(11:46):
there that are like I want togrow and I want to do what you
did and I want to, you know,okay.
Well, with great power comesgreat responsibility.
You know you're going to haveissues like this that are going
to come up, and the other pointthat I'll make is keep those
standards right.
Don't be the wishy-washydentist.
There's too many wishy-washydentists and I see these in
coaching clients, where they'rekeeping around team members way
(12:08):
too long.
They're just letting thingsstring out and they're letting
it string along.
And I think I think I mentionedon the podcast too the two
questions you should always askis if I had to hire this person
again, would I?
And if they told me they wereleaving tomorrow and quitting,
would I be upset?
The answer is no to either oneof those.
They need to go now.
They're messing up your teamand they're a cancer.
I like that.
Paul Etchison (12:27):
That's a good little test.
It reminds me of, like just howus as owners.
We don't typically say what wewant and we're always going to
get what we tolerate.
But what we see with a lot ofwhat I see with some coaching
clients is that all of a suddenthese things bother them and all
of a sudden they're going tostart talking about them and
then, when they bring them up,their team is going to bring up
(12:49):
every inconsistency in the waythat they treat their team
because it has been soinconsistent.
And I'm not saying that there'sno better time to start being
consistent than today, you know,but when you first start doing
this, you're going to get a lotof pushback with being
consistent with your teambecause you haven't been.
So sometimes the reprimand orjust the conversation about
(13:10):
what's going on should be led,like Steve said, with a
department wide or saying, hey,how do we do things here?
What can we agree about?
Because, like you said, likecoming down from the top and
saying this is the way we dothings, that's good too, but
it's better to get a socialagreement with your team saying,
hey, what can we all agree on?
What is fair?
(13:33):
Coming around like certainissues, like showing up on time
calling in sick, you know, notfinding somewhere to not finding
childcare, I don't know.
There's like so many situationsthat come up, it's becomes hard
to be consistent.
But what I'm saying is when wehave the biggest issues is when
we just decide.
One day I'm going to startcaring about this.
I kind of turned my my eye toit and I turned my cheek to it
for a very long time, but todayI care and I'm going to tell you
(13:53):
about it, and I'm going to doit in a not nice way, because
I'm really pissed off now.
Steve Markowitz (14:02):
Yeah, and we give people a microphone.
And what I've learned recentlyif you give people a microphone,
they're going to speak into it.
And what I mean by that is ifthere's a situation and me as
the owner, someone who'ssupposed to have all of the
authority and put them in quotes, and I go and ask someone
what'd you think about thisperson doing this or what'd you
think, and I just I gave themthe platform to say everything
crappy they feel about thatsituation and now I need to do
(14:24):
something about it.
So what I think is a solutionto that is there's a reason to
have meetings, and If somethingis important, it'll make it to
the meeting.
There's a reason to haveone-on-consistent one-on-ones If
something is important, it'llmake it to that one-on-one.
If, after every single thing,we're going up to our hygienist
friend and be like what do youthink of that?
And they're like well, thatperson's this, this, and then
(14:47):
they're like shit, now I got todo something about it
(15:15):
no-transcript want is a silentpractice where nobody's talking
about the problems.
Paul Etchison (15:23):
Yeah, but I wonder what you think about this
.
So if your team knows that ifthey bring you something it's
enough for them to complainabout Maybe they just want to
vent, or maybe they don't wantto vent, but they're going to
come tell you about somethingand they know you're going to do
something about it and theyknow that you're going to
involve them, such as like athree way conversation, like hey
, if you're going to complainabout this first to me, let's
have it, let's all talk it out.
Does that create somethingpsychologically unsafe in which
(15:44):
they don't want to now bring youthe problems?
Steve Markowitz (15:47):
Yeah, 100 percent at first, because it's
going to be different and that'sa different culture.
But if you're consistent withthat, then it will become.
This is how we do things.
So when you're first trying tocreate this team member
accountability or behavioraccountability yeah, at first
they're like, oh, I can't tellhim because this is going to
(16:08):
lead to something that isdifferent and I don't want to
have those.
Henry Ernst (16:12):
But if I am consistent enough with how we
handle those situations,ultimately they'll know it,
(16:34):
they'll be more able, and maybetwo people said something and
then what happened were some ofthe immature employees would
come out like with pitchforksand torches who said this and
they try to seek them out, right?
So the team has to understandthat it's for the greater good
of the office and that's why Ifeel like recently, in the last
year or two, I've really lovedthe anonymous survey thing and
(16:55):
even if you make it like anormal cadence every six months,
just send them out there andyou can.
Even I threw them all into chatGPT and had chat GPT organize
them really well and it had,like this person was mentioned
this many times and stuff likethat.
So I think that's reallyimportant.
And I think the other thingthat I'll say and again, I feel
like I'm being like the badperson on this podcast today no,
(17:15):
sometimes like the Sopranos,right, sometimes you have to
make a statement, right, and Ifeel like maybe I don't know I
feel like we're pretty good.
I feel like we fire somebody,maybe once a year in the last
like three or four years, and Ithink every time that happened,
you feel good about itafterwards.
I mean, I know that soundscrazy.
But you feel like you know whatthis person that they're always
(17:36):
talking about it's not hereanymore.
They're not here tomorrow.
I won't hear anything else everagain.
And I worked through thisprocess with a coaching client
who again kept an employee waytoo long and I talked this
person through this like, do youthink this person's good?
Do you think this?
You know all these.
And after that it was almostlike a come to Jesus moment,
like why am I keeping thisperson here?
(17:56):
Like, thank you.
And what happens is the momentyou get rid of somebody like
somebody like that, the team hasmore, you know, appreciation
and respect for you and they seethat you've got the greater
good of the office in mindbecause you're going to get rid
of it.
And, like I said, maybe I'mbeing the bad person here, but
don't be afraid to just get ridof somebody if they need to be
getting rid of.
That's not even a sentence.
Steve Markowitz (18:17):
Henry, and it's for the greater good of that
person, and I think that'sreally important.
When you sit and have theseconversations, how do we create
safety in these reallyuncomfortable situations?
We lead with.
The reason why we're havingthis conversation, paul, is
because I want to make surewe're upholding our values, but
I also want to make sure you'regoing to be the best person that
you can be in this position.
And we started with like whyare we doing this?
(18:39):
We know it's going to beuncomfortable, but it's because
we want to make you better, andwe set that intention and it
will lead to more like is itokay if we have this
conversation now?
Yes, okay, let's do it.
Henry Ernst (18:56):
The team has a lot of respect for you.
Also, when you make the blanketstatement, you know, like state
of the union, like listen, youknow we, just so everybody knows
you know Paul's not going to bewith the practice anymore.
We've severed our relationship.
I'm really happy with all thethings that Paul did for the
practice over the years.
I don't want anybody it's myrule, I always say it I don't
want anybody saying anythingnegative about Paul.
I won't tolerate it, you know,and I don't want you to, you
(19:16):
know, have any kind of thingslike that going on.
I wish Paul the best and done.
My team kind of makes fun of mebecause I'm not joking.
We have about four or fiveemployees or ex-employees that
were fired, that are patients ofthe practice.
So somehow or another, like Imanaged to make that smooth
thing and they still respect meto come as a patient.
Paul Etchison (19:38):
That's awesome and I think that's a testament
to showing like the way that youtreat people.
I think we run into a lot ofowners where we say, oh you know
, should I fire this person?
I don't know if I should firethem.
And, like you mentioned talkingwith that coaching client, I
just want to point out, ifyou're consistent with the way
you treat your team and youstart addressing these issues
like Henry, you mentioned thegreen, yellow and red If you
(19:58):
start addressing issues whenthey're at green level and you
address them at yellow level andthen you get to red level,
there is no question whether ornot that person belongs on your
team anymore.
They have had many opportunitiesto perform.
They have had many chanceswhere you've told them what is
expected and what they should bedoing, and if they're not doing
it, it's time to go.
And I think most owners you maynot know this, but everybody on
(20:21):
your team wants to do a goodjob.
They really do, and I would goas far to say it's people doing
a bad job 95% of the time.
They think they're doing a goodjob and they just don't know
the rules.
They don't know what the gamethat we're playing and that's
your job as the owner to setthose boundaries and create that
.
Henry Ernst (20:38):
Yeah, I'm getting older man.
I keep saying it.
Like this new generation, theyneed a lot more handheld holding
and stuff like that.
And I am getting older man.
You know I went to get ahaircut the other day and the
the at the end of the haircutthe lady was like you want me to
do your eyebrows too?
I'm like what I have turnedinto that man?
That's growing like eyebrowhair in weird areas I trim my
eyebrows.
Steve Markowitz (20:58):
I thought it was like half price for you,
Henry.
Paul Etchison (21:00):
That's exactly what I thought he was going to
say.
Steve Markowitz (21:03):
Well, you're doing half price.
There's less hair here.
Henry Ernst (21:06):
I'll take the discount?
Paul Etchison (21:07):
Sure sure, but yeah man, I actually I was like,
oh yeah, sure, go for it.
Henry is a great looking guy.
Henry's in great shape.
If you guys never seen Henry,henry goes to the gym all the
time.
He went on vacation with hisdaughter and people were posting
thinking he was his daughter'sboyfriend, you know.
Henry Ernst (21:21):
That was Bert Kreischer.
That thought that you know thecomedian Bert Kreischer.
Yeah, oh, that's so funny.
Paul Etchison (21:27):
You know what I think you got to tell that story
and then we're going to closeon that again, do?
Henry Ernst (21:31):
you want to tell the story.
So my daughter, julia, is aninfluencer and she got invited
to Dana White's power slap eventin Las Vegas.
You know, all expenses paid.
So I went as her plus one.
I felt like so cool.
So the night of the event, youknow we're in this like VIP area
and there were so many likefamous people, you know.
And so we're standing there atthe buffet and Julia's talking
(21:52):
to Bert Kreischer and BertKreischer's wife.
Bert Kreischer's a prettypopular comedian.
He's on Netflix a lot.
He's the guy who always has hisshirt off.
And so I'm standing there andthey're talking to Julia and I
introduce and blah, blah, blah,I just introduced myself as
Henry.
And then Julia's talking abouther dad, her dad, her dad.
And then Bert Kreischer goeswell, where is your dad?
And I looked back and I saidI'm the dad.
(22:14):
And then I whispered in his earand I said did you think I was
her sugar daddy?
And he goes well, fuck, yeah,this is Vegas.
Well, I don't know if I hell.
Yeah, this is Vegas.
I don't we have to explicitthat, but that's exactly what he
said, that's so funny mydaughter, julie, was mortified.
yeah, from that point on therest of the night I feel like
she wanted me to have a name tagthat said dad, yeah.
Paul Etchison (22:37):
Yeah, it is Vegas .
Well, hey, if you guys arethinking about like having this
be your year for your practice,where you're going to take off
more time, you're going to makemore money and just get things
less chaotic, get some help fromone of our coaches.
We know what we're doing and wecan share all this knowledge
and experience with you, socheck out our coaching packages
at dentalpractice.
We've all kept an employee around for too long.
Some of us just might have onein our practice right now, and
the longer we avoid it, the moredamage it does to the rest of
the team in the practice.
So today we're talking abouthow to confront underperformance
and team conflict head on.
You'll learn why you can'talways be the nice boss, how to
(00:22):
get honest feedback from yourteam and a simple test to help
you decide if someone reallybelongs at your practice or it's
time to say goodbye.
You won't want to miss this one.
Stay tuned.
You are listening to the DentalPractice Heroes podcast, where
we teach dentists how to stepback from the chair, empower
their team and build a practicethat gives them their life back.
(00:43):
I'm your host, dr Paul Etcheson, dental coach, author of two
books on dental practicemanagement and owner of a large
four-doctor practice that runswith ease while I work just one
clinical day a week.
If you're ready for a practicethat supports your life instead
of consuming it, you're in theright place.
My team of legendary dentalcoaches and I are here to guide
you on your path fromoverwhelmed owner to dental
(01:06):
practice hero.
Let's get started.
Hello everyone, and welcome backto the Dental Practice Heroes
podcast.
I'm your host, dr Paul Edgison.
I'm joined with my DPH coaches,dr Steve Markowitz, owner of a
six practice group on the EastCoast, and Dr Henry Ernst, 18 op
.
Practice in the Carolinas.
(01:27):
All two days or less dentistry.
We are not dentists thatpractice a lot, but we're
running our businesses.
So today we're going to talkabout a personal kind of like
personnel issue.
It's the hard part aboutdentistry and being an owner is
the people stuff, the staffthings, and we're talking about
that situation where we know ateam member is underperforming.
(01:49):
We've got team members lettingus know about it and here we've
got this team member.
We say how do we approach this?
Because we know we're going tohurt their feelings and we want
to make everything right.
We want everyone to worktogether, but just sitting in
your office and being like damnit, why can't they just all get
along and do what they'resupposed to do?
Doesn't get it done.
Steve Markowitz (02:08):
And, steve, with 152 employees, I think
we'll kick it off with you Everyday we deal with that kind of
stuff and just to clarify,there's so many different
situations where this showsitself and this situation is the
person underperforming in theirjob or is it that the people
around them they're not gettingalong or they're not seeing it?
What are we trying to answerhere specifically?
Paul Etchison (02:29):
yeah, I would say , you know, just for sake of
giving more direction, I wouldsay let's start with
underperforming.
So underperforming.
Steve Markowitz (02:35):
This should be the easiest, because we should
have very clear expectations onevery role.
In our office, we should behaving consistent discussions
and meetings and one-on-ones orcheck-ins so we give the
employer, the team member, theopportunity for us to share
where they're at.
The problem is that we're, asleaders or dentists, never
(02:58):
consistent enough doing thosethings, so they kind of fall
through the cracks.
And then when we start to seethese little things that are
signs that things aren't goingwell, we ignore them at first
and then we're dealing with themwhen they're these giant holes
and everything is on the fringeof breaking because we weren't
consistent and disciplinedenough to do it all the right
(03:20):
way along the way.
But this stuff happens.
That's how we work and we'redentists and this is the life
that we chose.
So how do we deal with it?
The first thing we need to dois we need to create a situation
where we can sit with thisperson and, if they're
underperforming, review theirjob description and what the
expectations are with them.
(03:41):
And what the expectations arewith them To this is Dave Ramsey
.
To be kind is to be clear.
So we need to have them seeexactly what we're seeing for
the expectations of their job.
Paul Etchison (03:54):
I think a lot of people listening and a lot of
dental owners are saying I don'twant to start with the
expectations.
What else can we do?
Steve Markowitz (04:00):
I mean even before that you need to have-.
Paul Etchison (04:02):
I don't want to set clear expectations.
How can I fix it?
Steve Markowitz (04:04):
That's perfectly fine.
Then you're going to enjoychaos, and that's perfectly fine
.
You need to accept it.
I'm okay with that.
The reason why you don't wantto set clear expectations is
because you are uncomfortableand you're being selfish as the
leader, as the owner.
You're saying my feelings ofdiscomfort are more important
than me.
Being honest with this person,who I want to be great, you're
(04:27):
not telling them that they'reunderperforming because you want
to make them feel like crap.
You want them to be better attheir job.
By not telling them that youare not allowing them to meet
their full potential.
So you're a selfish asshole.
Don't do that.
Full potential, so you're aselfish asshole.
Don't do that.
Be honest with the people thatyou're supposed to be serving,
(04:48):
that you're supposed to beemploying and supposed to be
developing.
Paul Etchison (04:51):
I love that.
Yeah, we have to set theexpectations.
It's a must, non-negotiable, socontinue.
I wanted to interrupt youbecause I know a lot of people
go through that.
They don't want to set theexpectations, they don't want to
have the conversation.
Steve Markowitz (05:04):
Yeah, and that's perfectly okay.
Don't be the owner, don't bethe boss, and that's okay too.
I don't think that that's anegative.
If you really don't want to dothose things, don't do them.
But then don't take on theresponsibility of the business
owner and say I want all thereward but none of the
responsibility.
That ain't going to work andthat's where you get yourself
(05:27):
into a lot of trouble.
Paul Etchison (05:27):
We need to start with setting the expectation.
Steve Markowitz (05:30):
Setting the expectation, understanding what
you want that person to do andthen, in the kindest way
possible, share with them whatyou're seeing.
The first way to changebehavior is to have that person
see things the way that you seethem.
So you can start with do yousee it the way I'm seeing it?
(05:50):
I'm going to share this, do yousee it differently?
And then let them share andthen show them.
Show them how you want it to bedone, and then watch them do it
.
And if they can't continuallymeet expectations or if it's a
capacity thing, then we need toeither put them in a different
seat if they're a good valuesfit, or we owe it to them to not
(06:14):
have them do that job.
It's not fair to them, or therest of the people on the team.
Paul Etchison (06:18):
Now let's do the second one.
The second situation wassomeone not getting along.
So we first talked about notmeeting expectations.
Now this was somebody.
This is Dr Steve.
We can't stand Cassandra.
She is out of control.
We get that a lot.
She's vaping in the bathroom.
Steve Markowitz (06:37):
It doesn't necessarily need to be me at
this point, but I thinkperspective is so interesting.
Think perspective is sointeresting.
I would recommend any leader orany manager to not just you
can't take just one person'sperspective.
You need to go in there and seefor yourself what actually is
happening and then you can learnand most often that person is
(06:59):
right.
But learn what's actuallyhappening and then guide that
conversation between thosepeople, if you're able to do it.
So if someone comes to me andsays Paul's being a jerk, I'm
like, okay, the first thing I'mgoing to do is I'm going to sit
there and listen.
I'm going to tell them.
If you're telling me this, Ineed you to know that I'm going
(07:22):
to do something about it.
And then, before they even opentheir mouth because I don't
want them just to gossip to mewe're going to.
If this is big enough for youto bring it to me, it's big
enough for me to want to changeit, I'll set that expectation.
And if they still share andwant to talk, then I will then
go and find and listen from myown perspective and get my own
(07:42):
information.
Paul Etchison (07:43):
And then the three of us, if I have to, the
three but I don't want you totell the person what I said
about them.
I just want you to fix it.
I don't want them to know Isaid bad things.
Steve Markowitz (07:55):
Then you don't want it to get better, and
that's okay too, but we aren'there to make things better.
It's either not painful enoughto make it better or you just
want me to feel a certain wayabout that person.
Those are the two things.
Paul Etchison (08:13):
So my options are don't tell me or we're going to
talk about it.
I remember where you and I werehaving a conversation not too
long ago about a similar thing,and you said that you tell your
team that if they don't want todo something about it.
You said something along thelines of if you tell me, I'm
going to do something about it,if you don't want me to do
something about it, go tell yourpillow.
Steve Markowitz (08:31):
Talk to your pillow.
That's what we said.
Yep, talk to your pillow.
That's what we say.
Yep, talk to your pillow.
I love that we're in aworkplace.
This is a professional setting.
I know that our offices areunique because we spend so much
time together, but it's aprofessional setting.
We need to be professional, andguess what professional people
do?
They solve issues.
So that's what we're going todo.
Paul Etchison (08:49):
Yeah, I love the way you say that, henry.
What's this bring up for?
Henry Ernst (08:51):
you.
I love it, steve.
Great information.
I feel like I'm just going totake a real world example.
So you know our practice is notlike Steve's.
I mean, we have about 35 teammembers, so you know there's
always stuff that happens oncein a while and maybe and what
I've found in my experience overthe years is these things tend
to bubble, and they tend tobubble up all at once for some
reason, and so we had an issueabout two months ago.
(09:15):
This is how it happens.
Hygienist you've had for yearsis like my right hand.
She's been with us about 11years now.
She came up to me and theclassic line here it is I have
to talk to you about somethingas soon as we hear that.
We're like oh crap.
It's going to okay, and it waslike on a friday night I'm like,
(09:36):
okay, let's go.
And so I was done with dinnerwith my family, I'm like, and I
just called, I said hit me withit, no pleasantries, just hit me
with it.
And then basically, you knowthat there's stuff going on and
stuff like that, and um, so whatI did is I had there's a survey
company, I think it's calledSurvey Hero, and you can put out
anonymous surveys veryimportant anonymous, right.
(09:59):
So I basically just put out anotice to the team.
I said listen, you know, Ialways want to make sure we're
providing the best care andproviding you with the best work
environment possible.
So we're going to put out somesurveys there.
And it was really great,actually, because I got some
really good feedback and stuff Iwasn't even thinking about, but
there were.
So there was about three teammembers that were all kind of
doing things here and there thatthey shouldn't have been doing,
(10:21):
and so it gave me the chance tojust sit down with everybody.
Some of them were really quick,like hey, paul, you're doing a
great job.
People said lots of greatthings about you.
You know, keep doing whatyou're doing.
Yeah, you're welcome, steve,you know, just so you know, in
our surveys and I always startwith the positive you know, hey,
you've been doing some greatthings and this and that, and I
appreciate your attention todetail.
(10:42):
However, you know some of yourteammates and this is important
when they hear it like that someof your teammates have said
that you're hanging out in thebreak room too much.
Teammates have said that you'rehanging out in the break room
too much.
You know, sometimes you're nothelping with sterilization and
you know what, when you do that,it forces work on everybody
else and it's not fair.
And then I give them a chance.
You know, do you feel likeyou're doing that and just have
(11:04):
the one-on-one and everythingelse that you were already
describing?
So, in this instance, make it apositive.
Make it where, hey, let's talkto everybody about it.
And the people that are gettingto like I think I heard on one
of your podcasts, Paul, I reallylove that you're talking about
how things get to red, yellowand green.
Yeah, that was from a recentbook I read.
Yeah, so the person that'sgetting to that red level, they
(11:25):
just are more stern Like listen,we can't have this anymore.
You can't hang out in the breakroom anymore.
You have to stay on task and ifthis is going to continue, then
the next step is we're going tohave to talk about your
employment future here.
So address it.
If you don't want this, thenyou're not going to be a
practice owner, because this isgoing to happen.
And if you're one of theseclients that we talk to here and
(11:46):
there that are like I want togrow and I want to do what you
did and I want to, you know,okay.
Well, with great power comesgreat responsibility.
You know you're going to haveissues like this that are going
to come up, and the other pointthat I'll make is keep those
standards right.
Don't be the wishy-washydentist.
There's too many wishy-washydentists and I see these in
coaching clients, where they'rekeeping around team members way
(12:08):
too long.
They're just letting thingsstring out and they're letting
it string along.
And I think I think I mentionedon the podcast too the two
questions you should always askis if I had to hire this person
again, would I?
And if they told me they wereleaving tomorrow and quitting,
would I be upset?
The answer is no to either oneof those.
They need to go now.
They're messing up your teamand they're a cancer.
I like that.
Paul Etchison (12:27):
That's a good little test.
It reminds me of, like just howus as owners.
We don't typically say what wewant and we're always going to
get what we tolerate.
But what we see with a lot ofwhat I see with some coaching
clients is that all of a suddenthese things bother them and all
of a sudden they're going tostart talking about them and
then, when they bring them up,their team is going to bring up
(12:49):
every inconsistency in the waythat they treat their team
because it has been soinconsistent.
And I'm not saying that there'sno better time to start being
consistent than today, you know,but when you first start doing
this, you're going to get a lotof pushback with being
consistent with your teambecause you haven't been.
So sometimes the reprimand orjust the conversation about
(13:10):
what's going on should be led,like Steve said, with a
department wide or saying, hey,how do we do things here?
What can we agree about?
Because, like you said, likecoming down from the top and
saying this is the way we dothings, that's good too, but
it's better to get a socialagreement with your team saying,
hey, what can we all agree on?
What is fair?
(13:33):
Coming around like certainissues, like showing up on time
calling in sick, you know, notfinding somewhere to not finding
childcare, I don't know.
There's like so many situationsthat come up, it's becomes hard
to be consistent.
But what I'm saying is when wehave the biggest issues is when
we just decide.
One day I'm going to startcaring about this.
I kind of turned my my eye toit and I turned my cheek to it
for a very long time, but todayI care and I'm going to tell you
(13:53):
about it, and I'm going to doit in a not nice way, because
I'm really pissed off now.
Steve Markowitz (14:02):
Yeah, and we give people a microphone.
And what I've learned recentlyif you give people a microphone,
they're going to speak into it.
And what I mean by that is ifthere's a situation and me as
the owner, someone who'ssupposed to have all of the
authority and put them in quotes, and I go and ask someone
what'd you think about thisperson doing this or what'd you
think, and I just I gave themthe platform to say everything
crappy they feel about thatsituation and now I need to do
(14:24):
something about it.
So what I think is a solutionto that is there's a reason to
have meetings, and If somethingis important, it'll make it to
the meeting.
There's a reason to haveone-on-consistent one-on-ones If
something is important, it'llmake it to that one-on-one.
If, after every single thing,we're going up to our hygienist
friend and be like what do youthink of that?
And they're like well, thatperson's this, this, and then
(14:47):
they're like shit, now I got todo something about it
(15:15):
no-transcript want is a silentpractice where nobody's talking
about the problems.
Paul Etchison (15:23):
Yeah, but I wonder what you think about this
.
So if your team knows that ifthey bring you something it's
enough for them to complainabout Maybe they just want to
vent, or maybe they don't wantto vent, but they're going to
come tell you about somethingand they know you're going to do
something about it and theyknow that you're going to
involve them, such as like athree way conversation, like hey
, if you're going to complainabout this first to me, let's
have it, let's all talk it out.
Does that create somethingpsychologically unsafe in which
(15:44):
they don't want to now bring youthe problems?
Steve Markowitz (15:47):
Yeah, 100 percent at first, because it's
going to be different and that'sa different culture.
But if you're consistent withthat, then it will become.
This is how we do things.
So when you're first trying tocreate this team member
accountability or behavioraccountability yeah, at first
they're like, oh, I can't tellhim because this is going to
(16:08):
lead to something that isdifferent and I don't want to
have those.
Henry Ernst (16:12):
But if I am consistent enough with how we
handle those situations,ultimately they'll know it,
(16:34):
they'll be more able, and maybetwo people said something and
then what happened were some ofthe immature employees would
come out like with pitchforksand torches who said this and
they try to seek them out, right?
So the team has to understandthat it's for the greater good
of the office and that's why Ifeel like recently, in the last
year or two, I've really lovedthe anonymous survey thing and
(16:55):
even if you make it like anormal cadence every six months,
just send them out there andyou can.
Even I threw them all into chatGPT and had chat GPT organize
them really well and it had,like this person was mentioned
this many times and stuff likethat.
So I think that's reallyimportant.
And I think the other thingthat I'll say and again, I feel
like I'm being like the badperson on this podcast today no,
(17:15):
sometimes like the Sopranos,right, sometimes you have to
make a statement, right, and Ifeel like maybe I don't know I
feel like we're pretty good.
I feel like we fire somebody,maybe once a year in the last
like three or four years, and Ithink every time that happened,
you feel good about itafterwards.
I mean, I know that soundscrazy.
But you feel like you know whatthis person that they're always
(17:36):
talking about it's not hereanymore.
They're not here tomorrow.
I won't hear anything else everagain.
And I worked through thisprocess with a coaching client
who again kept an employee waytoo long and I talked this
person through this like, do youthink this person's good?
Do you think this?
You know all these.
And after that it was almostlike a come to Jesus moment,
like why am I keeping thisperson here?
(17:56):
Like, thank you.
And what happens is the momentyou get rid of somebody like
somebody like that, the team hasmore, you know, appreciation
and respect for you and they seethat you've got the greater
good of the office in mindbecause you're going to get rid
of it.
And, like I said, maybe I'mbeing the bad person here, but
don't be afraid to just get ridof somebody if they need to be
getting rid of.
That's not even a sentence.
Steve Markowitz (18:17):
Henry, and it's for the greater good of that
person, and I think that'sreally important.
When you sit and have theseconversations, how do we create
safety in these reallyuncomfortable situations?
We lead with.
The reason why we're havingthis conversation, paul, is
because I want to make surewe're upholding our values, but
I also want to make sure you'regoing to be the best person that
you can be in this position.
And we started with like whyare we doing this?
(18:39):
We know it's going to beuncomfortable, but it's because
we want to make you better, andwe set that intention and it
will lead to more like is itokay if we have this
conversation now?
Yes, okay, let's do it.
Henry Ernst (18:56):
The team has a lot of respect for you.
Also, when you make the blanketstatement, you know, like state
of the union, like listen, youknow we, just so everybody knows
you know Paul's not going to bewith the practice anymore.
We've severed our relationship.
I'm really happy with all thethings that Paul did for the
practice over the years.
I don't want anybody it's myrule, I always say it I don't
want anybody saying anythingnegative about Paul.
I won't tolerate it, you know,and I don't want you to, you
(19:16):
know, have any kind of thingslike that going on.
I wish Paul the best and done.
My team kind of makes fun of mebecause I'm not joking.
We have about four or fiveemployees or ex-employees that
were fired, that are patients ofthe practice.
So somehow or another, like Imanaged to make that smooth
thing and they still respect meto come as a patient.
Paul Etchison (19:38):
That's awesome and I think that's a testament
to showing like the way that youtreat people.
I think we run into a lot ofowners where we say, oh you know
, should I fire this person?
I don't know if I should firethem.
And, like you mentioned talkingwith that coaching client, I
just want to point out, ifyou're consistent with the way
you treat your team and youstart addressing these issues
like Henry, you mentioned thegreen, yellow and red If you
(19:58):
start addressing issues whenthey're at green level and you
address them at yellow level andthen you get to red level,
there is no question whether ornot that person belongs on your
team anymore.
They have had many opportunitiesto perform.
They have had many chanceswhere you've told them what is
expected and what they should bedoing, and if they're not doing
it, it's time to go.
And I think most owners you maynot know this, but everybody on
(20:21):
your team wants to do a goodjob.
They really do, and I would goas far to say it's people doing
a bad job 95% of the time.
They think they're doing a goodjob and they just don't know
the rules.
They don't know what the gamethat we're playing and that's
your job as the owner to setthose boundaries and create that
.
Henry Ernst (20:38):
Yeah, I'm getting older man.
I keep saying it.
Like this new generation, theyneed a lot more handheld holding
and stuff like that.
And I am getting older man.
You know I went to get ahaircut the other day and the
the at the end of the haircutthe lady was like you want me to
do your eyebrows too?
I'm like what I have turnedinto that man?
That's growing like eyebrowhair in weird areas I trim my
eyebrows.
Steve Markowitz (20:58):
I thought it was like half price for you,
Henry.
Paul Etchison (21:00):
That's exactly what I thought he was going to
say.
Steve Markowitz (21:03):
Well, you're doing half price.
There's less hair here.
Henry Ernst (21:06):
I'll take the discount?
Paul Etchison (21:07):
Sure sure, but yeah man, I actually I was like,
oh yeah, sure, go for it.
Henry is a great looking guy.
Henry's in great shape.
If you guys never seen Henry,henry goes to the gym all the
time.
He went on vacation with hisdaughter and people were posting
thinking he was his daughter'sboyfriend, you know.
Henry Ernst (21:21):
That was Bert Kreischer.
That thought that you know thecomedian Bert Kreischer.
Yeah, oh, that's so funny.
Paul Etchison (21:27):
You know what I think you got to tell that story
and then we're going to closeon that again, do?
Henry Ernst (21:31):
you want to tell the story.
So my daughter, julia, is aninfluencer and she got invited
to Dana White's power slap eventin Las Vegas.
You know, all expenses paid.
So I went as her plus one.
I felt like so cool.
So the night of the event, youknow we're in this like VIP area
and there were so many likefamous people, you know.
And so we're standing there atthe buffet and Julia's talking
(21:52):
to Bert Kreischer and BertKreischer's wife.
Bert Kreischer's a prettypopular comedian.
He's on Netflix a lot.
He's the guy who always has hisshirt off.
And so I'm standing there andthey're talking to Julia and I
introduce and blah, blah, blah,I just introduced myself as
Henry.
And then Julia's talking abouther dad, her dad, her dad.
And then Bert Kreischer goeswell, where is your dad?
And I looked back and I saidI'm the dad.
(22:14):
And then I whispered in his earand I said did you think I was
her sugar daddy?
And he goes well, fuck, yeah,this is Vegas.
Well, I don't know if I hell.
Yeah, this is Vegas.
I don't we have to explicitthat, but that's exactly what he
said, that's so funny mydaughter, julie, was mortified.
yeah, from that point on therest of the night I feel like
she wanted me to have a name tagthat said dad, yeah.
Paul Etchison (22:37):
Yeah, it is Vegas .
Well, hey, if you guys arethinking about like having this
be your year for your practice,where you're going to take off
more time, you're going to makemore money and just get things
less chaotic, get some help fromone of our coaches.
We know what we're doing and wecan share all this knowledge
and experience with you, socheck out our coaching packages
at dentalpractice.
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