October 8, 2025 • 24 mins
You know what’s worse than not having an office manager? Having the wrong one. We all want that "perfect" hire, but perfect on paper rarely works in practice.
This episode explores what really makes someone the right fit, whether you're promoting from within or hiring from the outside, and how to set them up for success in their new role. You'll learn three important things: the trade-offs of hiring internally vs. externally, what you need to do before handing over the reins, and how to keep your practice running smoothly — with or without a manager.
Topics discussed in this episode:
- Why most outside hires fail
- The #1 onboarding mistake
- How to successfully promote internally vs. externally
- How to interview new office managers
- How to “build your bench"
This episode was produced by Podcast Boutique https://www.podcastboutique.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paul (00:02):
Every dentist dreams of that magical office manager, the
one who steps in, takeseverything off your plate, and
makes all of your problemsdisappear.
But here's the truth (00:11):
that unicorn rarely exists.
But what if it did?
Do you promote from within?
Do you hire from outside?
And why does it so often gosideways either way?
Today, we're gonna unpack thereal reason office managers
succeed or fail and how tofinally get it right.
You are listening to the DentalPractice Heroes Podcast, where
(00:33):
we teach dentists how to stepback from the chair, empower
their team, and build a practicethat gives them their life
back.
I'm your host, Dr.
Paul Etchison, dental coach,author of two books on dental
practice management, and ownerof a large four-doctor practice
that runs with ease while I workjust one clinical day a week.
If you're ready for a practicethat supports your life instead
(00:54):
of consuming it, you're in theright place.
My team of legendary dentalcoaches and I are here to guide
you on your path fromoverwhelmed owner to dental
practice hero.
Let's get started.
Welcome back to the DentalPractice Heroes Podcast.
I am Dr.
Paul Edgerson, joined by my DPHcoaches, Dr.
(01:15):
Steve Markowitz and Dr.
Henry Ernst, both largepractice owners, managers of
large teams, and people withtons of experience in leading
and creating uh really greatpractices.
So, you know, in our lastepisode where we were together,
we talked about Henry uh havingto make a difficult decision of
letting his office manager go,part with this office manager,
(01:37):
and going through the transitionof developing or finding
another office manager to takethat position.
And I thought it would be agreat episode, and Steve's got a
lot to say about this too, is Ihear this a lot with my
coaching clients, is like, wheredo I find an office manager?
Do I bring somebody in?
And I have had clients thathave brought people in from the
outside, and I'm gonna behonest, it has not gone well.
(01:59):
I have not seen it work well.
So I'm really interested tohear what you guys say because I
think you guys got somediffering opinions on it.
And I think all the listenerscould benefit from this because
we all and we all want thatoffice manager just to come in
and make everything good.
Can't we just find that person?
But we're looking at theresumes.
Oh, they got experience officemanaging an office.
That means I'm gonna hire themand they're gonna come in and
(02:20):
make everything, all my problemsgo away.
I'll go to you first, Steve.
I mean, you've got sixpractices, lots of managers,
promoting from within versusbringing somebody from the
outside.
Steve (02:31):
So I will say, I'm gonna agree with everyone that
promoting from within is easier.
And the reason why it's easieris because that person already
knows who you are and youalready have trust with them
that they're a good values fit.
That doesn't necessarily meanthey're gonna be a good manager,
and I've seen that.
Bringing someone from theoutside is also difficult, and
(02:52):
the reason why that's difficultis because dentists don't
actually know what an officemanager does, and neither do
people who work on the businessteam.
So someone who's a thing whocalls themselves an office
manager who will apply to yourad who thinks they're running
the entire office, may be justsitting at a front desk
answering phones and they thinkthey're gonna go in and do the
(03:14):
same thing, and that's what anoffice manager does.
Both can work.
Us as dentists, us as theowner, it is our responsibility
to provide clarity on what anoffice manager does for us and
to create continued focus forwhat that office manager does on
a it may be daily at first, butat least a weekly basis.
(03:36):
Where this goes sideways manytimes is we have this
expectation of this person thatcomes in from another office,
they were the office manager,and they talked about how great
they were and how great theoffice was, and then we expect
them to do that for us.
But there are intricacies, andit may be something as simple as
we use a different practicemanagement software, or we have
(03:58):
a scorecard and they never seena scorecard before.
There are intricacies of whatmakes us us, that it could take
months, months, months, monthsfor this manager to even learn
who we are, let alone learn howto lead the people that they're
in charge of.
Mistake number one is we handover the reins way too quickly.
(04:19):
Then we have unclearexpectations of what this office
manager is responsible for.
We say things like, we want togrow revenue by 10%, go do it.
And they're like, How do I Idon't even I answer the phones
or I how do I even navigatethat?
Mistake number two.
What I would recommend is bothcan work, but it is on us to
(04:41):
create clarity and spend a lotof time on understanding what
our expectations are of thisoffice manager so that they know
where to focus.
And then we don't chase shinythings when they come off and up
to us.
We back this person up, we findopportunities for them to
connect, have a ton of earlywins, celebrate those wins with
(05:03):
them, and then provide supportwhen they are making mistakes
because they're going to make amistake, and someone else on
your leadership team or someonein the office is gonna come up
and say, I can't believe Kathydid that.
And you're gonna the first yourinstincts to be like, Yeah,
Kathy sucks.
And then it's over.
You're like, that's over beforeit even started.
So as soon as you hear thosethings, which you're gonna hear,
(05:24):
especially from someone fromthe outside, you cannot react.
That is just a data point.
Your reaction as the owner, asthe doctor, will put this person
in a zero chance of success.
And that is why outside hiresdon't work.
Paul (05:37):
Yeah, I could see it, like where somebody brings you
something that you said Kathy,Kathy did, and you're like,
What?
What did she do?
Oh, that's not cool.
You've got to be so careful.
There's so much confirmationbias with the team.
And that's something you,Steve, have helped me realize
just this past year, just Imean, that's podcasting
together, is what I say, even tomy like trusted confidant
(06:00):
people, what I say, my view on ateam member really permeates
through that culture.
And I gotta be very carefulwhat I say because if people
hear me say someone's not good,that confirmation bias, they
will find things, they will findevidence for that not being
good.
What do you think about allthat, Henry?
I mean, have you had thathappen in your experience as
(06:20):
well?
Henry (06:21):
I've had lots of the same experiences, and I appreciate
the wisdom, Steve.
Yeah, you are the man.
And some of the stuff you said,I've gotten it written down as
you were talking there.
I would say that some of this,it depends, is the answer that I
would give you.
It depends on this currentstatus of the practice.
So I'm that practice where wehave a large staff member group,
and I never want somebody tohave a ceiling in their
(06:43):
position.
If you're an entry-level dentalassistant, hey, we've got
systems in place where we canascend you to a DA.
We call it 1.5, where you'reyou know halfway up to a DA2,
and we're training you.
And then we train you to be aDA2, and maybe you want to be
involved in management.
We can train.
So we always have that, it'spart of our culture.
We have so many high-level teammembers that started at the
(07:05):
very, very bottom, right?
So I think that's usually ourMO.
And as we talked about in ourlast podcast, it didn't work.
This last one didn't work.
We had one for seven years, andwe had one for two and a half
years, and we just recently hadto make a change.
Our current status of ourpractice requires somebody from
the outside.
We need a new voice, we need afresh voice, we need somebody
(07:27):
who is not buddy buddy.
We've been in practice for 10years in our practice now.
We have so many people thathave been there eight years,
nine years, seven years.
Testament to the practice.
But I mean, they are so closeoutside the office, in the
office, and that's a greatthing, but it's also sometimes a
negative thing.
So, our current status of ourpractices, I felt strongly that
we needed an outside voice.
(07:48):
Now, you mentioned some ofthese things already, Steve.
We need to have defined roles.
What I have noticed is a lot ofpeople call somebody a practice
manager.
Really, all they are is justthey're running the front desk.
That's it.
Right?
And so in our current system,we need to have defined roles.
Hey, you are gonna be theleader of our L10 meetings,
(08:10):
you're gonna be the one who'sour integrator, I'm the one who
makes the big bold ideas and itfilters down to you.
I need you to hold peopleaccountable.
You know, all this stuff thatis the defined role that we have
here.
We need to have in our systemtoo, we need I need the our
business systems tight tightenedup a little bit.
Someone who's strong with that.
I actually just came from a50-year-old bachelor party this
(08:31):
weekend in Miami.
Wow.
With a bunch of ex-militaryguys, they all graduate, most of
them graduated from West Point.
So I love this term that someof them were talking to me about
when we were talking aboutbusiness.
There's something calledofficer's intent.
So in the military, if we're,let's say there's 30 of us and
we're getting dropped fromhelicopters and we're supposed
to take this mountain.
Well, I'm the commander, I'mthe officer, and I'm gonna lead
(08:54):
you.
But what happens if the secondwe land on the ground, I get
shot in the head?
Do you guys just quit?
No.
We understand what the what thegoal is.
The goal is to take that hill,but you just kind of figure it
out.
So if our goal is to have thisor that 70-75% treatment plan
acceptance, hey, let's figure itout the officer's intent.
(09:14):
In other words, I want you tofigure out what makes it happen.
So, in my opinion, whoever thisis gonna come in from the
outside, they're gonna have theparameters.
These are the systems that wehave in place, but we're not
steadfast.
You can tweak them, feel freeto tweak them, right?
And that's where we are, wherewe were gonna benefit, in my
opinion, from somebody from theoutside.
Paul (09:35):
How do you present that to the team?
I mean, because now you'retransitioning an office manager
that was just recently let go orleft, but you don't have an
office manager anymore.
And that was a decision.
And now you've got a big team,35 people, and I'm sure there's
some people on that team that'ssaying, Well, why not me?
How do you sell that to theteam that you need somebody to
(09:57):
come from the outside, or or wasthat even an issue in your
practice?
Henry (10:00):
Well, I basically just made the statement because I
think that was kind of likestart people starting to think.
And I made the big boldstatement and I explained to
them why this was happening.
We're not holding peopleaccountable.
Some people were gettingpreferential treatment.
Right now, for the first timein the history of this practice,
we're going outside theorganization for this position,
and this is why.
Right.
And for example, one of thepeople that we're interviewing
(10:24):
is coming from a large DSO, andshe has amazing, amazing
business acumen, which is great.
And it's kind of like adentist.
My uh sweet spot for anassociate dentist is somebody
who went to a DSO, hated thefact that they were really pushy
on treatment and weren'tflexible.
Now they've made their mistakespractice-wise, and now they
(10:44):
come to us a wounded bird, andnow they're gonna see that we're
like a great environment.
We're gonna basically like givethem.
I'm not gonna dictate you whatto do, just treat people right,
do the right thing.
And this is uh how I look atthis office manager position.
We're probably gonna hire thisperson.
I had a detailed conversationwith her.
Hey, this is what I expect.
Are you fine with being JohnTaffer and holding people
(11:06):
accountable?
Oh, yes, no problem, you know.
And for us, we need somebodyfrom the outside.
And it's kind of understood asto the reason why.
Paul (11:14):
How about you, Steve?
Like, I mean, you've done both.
Yeah.
Do you primarily lean towardspromoting from within and then
going outside?
Is there one that you lean tomore than the other?
Steve (11:23):
It depends on the situation of why we have that
open leadership position.
But for any position, we willopen it up to anyone who wants
to apply.
And internally, I may have athought of where where I think
we want to go.
But sometimes I've beensurprised when people have
applied that I didn't thinkwould want that level of
responsibility.
(11:43):
I also, in the interviewprocess, am not shy about the
problems that we're trying tosolve.
Exactly.
And I will be very open andask, like, okay, when you come
in here, the problem that you'rehere to solve is accountability
of the team.
Can you walk me through whathow you have developed
(12:04):
accountability and what that'sgoing to look like when you come
here?
Like, paint me the most clearvision of what creating an
accountable team looks like toyou.
And then I want to just sitback and have them teach me and
show me what that would looklike.
And if there are things thatthey say that don't align with
how I how I think the answer is,there are two options I have.
I can either say, well, that'sgreat, but this person isn't
(12:27):
going to be a good fit here.
Or I can also share my visionfor how I would like to create
accountability and push back andgive them feedback in that
interview process and see howthey respond.
And if we develop this back andforth as Henry uses the US,
it's like integrator visionary.
Like if we can develop thisback and forth of like, this is
how I want it to go, and we'reable to come to common ground,
(12:50):
what a great understanding andworking relationship we're
developing.
So I I think the take home forbringing someone in from the
outside is don't shy away fromyour problems in the interview
process.
They are going to find outexactly how shitty everything is
very quickly.
And I think that it's onlygoing to help you to take it on
with them if they'relegitimately going to be your
(13:12):
right-hand person in the office.
Henry (13:14):
Hoorah.
That is exactly what I did,right?
I feel really good now that themaster Steve has given advice
that I already did.
Don't shy away from it.
I said exactly why, where weare, and why you are here
talking to me right now.
Right.
So, and I think it's importantto understand also that conflict
is healthy for an organization,right?
True.
(13:34):
Healthy organizations look atconflict and say, hey, we're
gonna not shy away from it.
We're gonna talk about it,we're gonna do this and that.
Unhealthy organizations ignoreconflict, they walk past it, and
it just brews up into acrescendo.
So thank you for thataffirmation, Steve.
Paul (13:49):
Yeah, that's such a good point.
And it's that's something thatwe're kind of struggling with at
my practice right now.
There's a little bit ofconflict.
You know, I feel like it's amuch better, but there are still
conversations that need to bedrawn out into the open.
And that is our focus with ourleadership team right now, and
that is our focus that we talkedabout our last lead meeting, is
we have really got to get someconversations out into I can't
(14:12):
remember who says it, into thelight or something like that.
You've got to get the lightshine on them.
So like don't think you'restronger because of conflict and
you're stronger because ofdiscussing them, but it's when
you don't do it that's whenthings get worse.
Now, Steve, you mentionedversus bringing somebody in from
outside versus promoting fromwithin, you know, setting
expectations.
When you do bring somebody infrom outside, like how do they
(14:36):
slowly get the respect to theteam?
Because like what I've seen inin certain coaching clients I've
worked with that have been inreally desperate situations
where they've lost somebody verycritical because they had a
very heavy hitter of usuallyit's an office manager and it's
the only person who knows how todo so many things in the
office, and that person leavesand they don't have anyone else
that knows how to do it, theyget in a very desperate
situation where they starthiring people very quickly,
(14:58):
bringing them in, and thensomebody starts just bossing
everybody around.
They're like, hell no, this isnot working.
And then that person leaves andthere's still that void.
And I've seen that happen somany times.
And no matter what, it justseems to happen.
No matter how much we tell thisperson, hey, gain the respect
of people first.
That has been my experiencewith bringing people from the
outside.
And that's why at the beginningof this episode, I said, I have
not seen that work.
Steve (15:18):
Yeah.
We need to create wins for thisperson.
And you don't create wins byimplementing change.
So a lot of times, especiallywith inexperienced leaders, they
think they have the answers,they are the special sauce.
Let me come in and show you howmuch I know and push my
knowledge to fix fix the issuethat I'm here to solve.
(15:41):
That is not going to get peopleto believe and trust, trust,
and respect you.
So, what I want them to dobefore they even they have a
vision, we've talked about it.
We need to have one-on-oneswith everyone because what I
think might be our biggestissue, and what from my
perspective, maybe the practicefrom a bird's eye view may need
to work on may not be whateveryone's feeling individually.
(16:04):
So I need that person to comein and say, I'd love to learn
about what you do.
I'd love to learn about how youdo this, I'd love to learn what
works well here.
I'd love to learn what anoffice manager looks like in
your eyes.
And I'm just going to takenotes.
I don't know if I'm going to beable to do any of these things
or all of these things, but Ijust want to understand.
(16:26):
So that first 30 days on thatperson checklist is a one-on-one
with every single person in theoffice.
We can't celebrate wins or wecan't implement change until we
have the buy-in of the team andthat this person is the right
one to make those changes.
So that is where we start that.
But even before that, we're allgoing to have a team meeting,
(16:48):
like a group meeting, and say,this person is going to be our
manager.
This is what I expect this tolook like for the next 90 days.
If it doesn't feel like there'sa lot of change, it's because
there isn't.
So the expectation isn't goingto be because this person's
here, your life is noweverything, all our problems are
(17:08):
solved.
That's an unfair expectation.
This person is here because weneed someone to help navigate
our challenges, help support usthrough the tough days, and
whatever else we expect ourexpectations are of that
manager.
So take the time to let thisperson integrate to the
position.
And that could be six plusmonths before you see any
(17:31):
traction in a position ofleadership.
Don't evaluate them on problemsthat you created, evaluate them
on problems that they are ableto solve and then go from there.
Henry (17:42):
I wanted to make an important point that I think is
really, really important,especially in a larger practice.
Maybe I'm the Neanderthal here.
I always have sports analogies.
I'm a big sports guy.
So it's like in baseball,develop your bullpen or
football, have a backupquarterback that's ready to go,
ready to go.
So for example, in ourleadership team, we have a team
lead that's a hygienist forhygienists.
(18:03):
We have a team lead that's incharge of marketing.
You know what?
That team lead that's in chargeof marketing just also happens
to be a hygienist.
So we've got a backup.
So if the main one that's forready hygienists isn't there or
it has to be out for an extendedperiod of time, boom, we've
already got them ready to go.
We have another team leadthat's our for dental
assistants.
We have another one that's forsedation.
Well, you know what?
(18:23):
Same thing.
They're both dental assistants.
The same thing has happenedover time for office manager.
Years ago, I had an officemanager just write down every
single task, like a monthlylittle thing here.
Just write down every singletask that you do.
And in that case, I was like,you know, the old thing of what
are you really good at?
What do you like doing?
And all this stuff.
But hand over as many things asyou can, but audit it.
(18:44):
And we did that years ago.
So that's why right now we'restill functioning.
We're still cash flowing.
We're still doing the same asbefore.
Nothing has changed.
Obviously, if we keep on thispath, we're gonna have problems,
right?
But right now we have ourbullpen.
It's progressing fine.
The backup quarterback isleading us through this four or
five stretch of games here.
We're fine.
Steve (19:05):
Yeah.
Henry, I love, I love that yousaid that talking about the
bench.
I think that for me willdifferentiate is this a promote
from within or higher from theoutside?
The strength of the bench is abig determinant of which path
that I take.
So when when leaders get to acertain point, it is their
ability to create the strengthin their bench that will allow
(19:25):
them to continue to grow.
And that again will allow us toknow how do we navigate if if
we have holes in the startinglimit.
Henry (19:34):
And I'm sorry, I forgot to make this point.
This is for coaching clients,right?
I've seen this.
You mentioned this, Paul, issomebody's, oh my God, I lost my
practice mentor.
She's the only one who knowshow to do this.
She's the only one that knowshow to do this.
You have really screwedyourself.
And that's the person that'sgoing to hire too quickly in a
feverish attempt to get somebodyin there.
So that's why you develop yourbullpen and we're good, right?
(19:56):
We're good for a while.
We're not going to be forever,but we can mosey along just fine
for a while.
Paul (20:01):
Yeah, so true.
Something I want to come backto that Steve said is during
these one-on-ones, like such agreat question for this person's
new position to ask theirreports.
I don't know, their departmentis in your eyes, what does an OM
look like?
You know, and I think that'ssomething for us, like to ask
our teams as well.
You know, as a leader of thispractice, what does that look
(20:22):
like for you?
What is an ideal behavior forme?
What is the role that I amtrying to serve for you?
We talked about servantleadership and stuff.
I think that's such a greatthing because they're coming
into this position blindly, notknowing what the expectations
are of them from the teammembers.
So this is a great like way toone, get the you one, you get
(20:43):
the respect of the team, buttwo, like you're also listening
for issues, you're validatingthe concerns of the team, and
you're winning people overbefore you step in and start
changing something.
And I love that you saidsetting the expectation that
change is not going to happenfast.
We don't expect change tohappen.
It's a slow process.
But that is likely why I thinkI've not seen it work in the
people that I've worked withthat have done this, and it's
(21:05):
exactly what you said, Henry.
They're so just front-endloaded on one person that knows
how to do everything.
They didn't onboard anyoneelse, they didn't train anyone
else, and they lost them, andnow they're in a pinch.
Steve (21:17):
I know how hard it is to kind of fill these office
manager positions.
I think the the take-home isconstantly be building your
bullpen, just like Henry said.
But also and be clear on theexpectations for that, for that
practice manager.
And most importantly, bepatient with yourself, be
patient with this new hirebecause it is going to take
(21:39):
longer than you think it will.
And then you look back in ayear or two and you're like,
thank God I invested so much inthis person.
But it takes that long to learnwho you are, learn the
position, learn all the peoplethey're responsible for, and
focus on results.
It's a big ask that we ask fromthis position.
And patience will always beyour best friend.
Paul (22:00):
Yeah.
And I think, you know, if ifyou're listening to this and
you're thinking about theleadership team in your
practice, this is one of thethings that will literally
change your life is having asolid leadership team so you
don't have to do it all.
And this is the value ofworking with Steve or working
with Henry in helping you withyour practice.
So if you're looking to takeyour practice to the next level,
you're looking for a coach, myguys, I think you heard it
(22:22):
today.
These two guys know whatthey're talking about.
And, you know, having a littlesolid lead at your practice,
man, does that take a lot ofpressure off you as the owner?
So thank you so much forlistening, and we'll talk to you
next time.
Every dentist dreams of that magical office manager, the
one who steps in, takeseverything off your plate, and
makes all of your problemsdisappear.
But here's the truth (00:11):
that unicorn rarely exists.
But what if it did?
Do you promote from within?
Do you hire from outside?
And why does it so often gosideways either way?
Today, we're gonna unpack thereal reason office managers
succeed or fail and how tofinally get it right.
You are listening to the DentalPractice Heroes Podcast, where
(00:33):
we teach dentists how to stepback from the chair, empower
their team, and build a practicethat gives them their life
back.
I'm your host, Dr.
Paul Etchison, dental coach,author of two books on dental
practice management, and ownerof a large four-doctor practice
that runs with ease while I workjust one clinical day a week.
If you're ready for a practicethat supports your life instead
(00:54):
of consuming it, you're in theright place.
My team of legendary dentalcoaches and I are here to guide
you on your path fromoverwhelmed owner to dental
practice hero.
Let's get started.
Welcome back to the DentalPractice Heroes Podcast.
I am Dr.
Paul Edgerson, joined by my DPHcoaches, Dr.
(01:15):
Steve Markowitz and Dr.
Henry Ernst, both largepractice owners, managers of
large teams, and people withtons of experience in leading
and creating uh really greatpractices.
So, you know, in our lastepisode where we were together,
we talked about Henry uh havingto make a difficult decision of
letting his office manager go,part with this office manager,
(01:37):
and going through the transitionof developing or finding
another office manager to takethat position.
And I thought it would be agreat episode, and Steve's got a
lot to say about this too, is Ihear this a lot with my
coaching clients, is like, wheredo I find an office manager?
Do I bring somebody in?
And I have had clients thathave brought people in from the
outside, and I'm gonna behonest, it has not gone well.
(01:59):
I have not seen it work well.
So I'm really interested tohear what you guys say because I
think you guys got somediffering opinions on it.
And I think all the listenerscould benefit from this because
we all and we all want thatoffice manager just to come in
and make everything good.
Can't we just find that person?
But we're looking at theresumes.
Oh, they got experience officemanaging an office.
That means I'm gonna hire themand they're gonna come in and
(02:20):
make everything, all my problemsgo away.
I'll go to you first, Steve.
I mean, you've got sixpractices, lots of managers,
promoting from within versusbringing somebody from the
outside.
Steve (02:31):
So I will say, I'm gonna agree with everyone that
promoting from within is easier.
And the reason why it's easieris because that person already
knows who you are and youalready have trust with them
that they're a good values fit.
That doesn't necessarily meanthey're gonna be a good manager,
and I've seen that.
Bringing someone from theoutside is also difficult, and
(02:52):
the reason why that's difficultis because dentists don't
actually know what an officemanager does, and neither do
people who work on the businessteam.
So someone who's a thing whocalls themselves an office
manager who will apply to yourad who thinks they're running
the entire office, may be justsitting at a front desk
answering phones and they thinkthey're gonna go in and do the
(03:14):
same thing, and that's what anoffice manager does.
Both can work.
Us as dentists, us as theowner, it is our responsibility
to provide clarity on what anoffice manager does for us and
to create continued focus forwhat that office manager does on
a it may be daily at first, butat least a weekly basis.
(03:36):
Where this goes sideways manytimes is we have this
expectation of this person thatcomes in from another office,
they were the office manager,and they talked about how great
they were and how great theoffice was, and then we expect
them to do that for us.
But there are intricacies, andit may be something as simple as
we use a different practicemanagement software, or we have
(03:58):
a scorecard and they never seena scorecard before.
There are intricacies of whatmakes us us, that it could take
months, months, months, monthsfor this manager to even learn
who we are, let alone learn howto lead the people that they're
in charge of.
Mistake number one is we handover the reins way too quickly.
(04:19):
Then we have unclearexpectations of what this office
manager is responsible for.
We say things like, we want togrow revenue by 10%, go do it.
And they're like, How do I Idon't even I answer the phones
or I how do I even navigatethat?
Mistake number two.
What I would recommend is bothcan work, but it is on us to
(04:41):
create clarity and spend a lotof time on understanding what
our expectations are of thisoffice manager so that they know
where to focus.
And then we don't chase shinythings when they come off and up
to us.
We back this person up, we findopportunities for them to
connect, have a ton of earlywins, celebrate those wins with
(05:03):
them, and then provide supportwhen they are making mistakes
because they're going to make amistake, and someone else on
your leadership team or someonein the office is gonna come up
and say, I can't believe Kathydid that.
And you're gonna the first yourinstincts to be like, Yeah,
Kathy sucks.
And then it's over.
You're like, that's over beforeit even started.
So as soon as you hear thosethings, which you're gonna hear,
(05:24):
especially from someone fromthe outside, you cannot react.
That is just a data point.
Your reaction as the owner, asthe doctor, will put this person
in a zero chance of success.
And that is why outside hiresdon't work.
Paul (05:37):
Yeah, I could see it, like where somebody brings you
something that you said Kathy,Kathy did, and you're like,
What?
What did she do?
Oh, that's not cool.
You've got to be so careful.
There's so much confirmationbias with the team.
And that's something you,Steve, have helped me realize
just this past year, just Imean, that's podcasting
together, is what I say, even tomy like trusted confidant
(06:00):
people, what I say, my view on ateam member really permeates
through that culture.
And I gotta be very carefulwhat I say because if people
hear me say someone's not good,that confirmation bias, they
will find things, they will findevidence for that not being
good.
What do you think about allthat, Henry?
I mean, have you had thathappen in your experience as
(06:20):
well?
Henry (06:21):
I've had lots of the same experiences, and I appreciate
the wisdom, Steve.
Yeah, you are the man.
And some of the stuff you said,I've gotten it written down as
you were talking there.
I would say that some of this,it depends, is the answer that I
would give you.
It depends on this currentstatus of the practice.
So I'm that practice where wehave a large staff member group,
and I never want somebody tohave a ceiling in their
(06:43):
position.
If you're an entry-level dentalassistant, hey, we've got
systems in place where we canascend you to a DA.
We call it 1.5, where you'reyou know halfway up to a DA2,
and we're training you.
And then we train you to be aDA2, and maybe you want to be
involved in management.
We can train.
So we always have that, it'spart of our culture.
We have so many high-level teammembers that started at the
(07:05):
very, very bottom, right?
So I think that's usually ourMO.
And as we talked about in ourlast podcast, it didn't work.
This last one didn't work.
We had one for seven years, andwe had one for two and a half
years, and we just recently hadto make a change.
Our current status of ourpractice requires somebody from
the outside.
We need a new voice, we need afresh voice, we need somebody
(07:27):
who is not buddy buddy.
We've been in practice for 10years in our practice now.
We have so many people thathave been there eight years,
nine years, seven years.
Testament to the practice.
But I mean, they are so closeoutside the office, in the
office, and that's a greatthing, but it's also sometimes a
negative thing.
So, our current status of ourpractices, I felt strongly that
we needed an outside voice.
(07:48):
Now, you mentioned some ofthese things already, Steve.
We need to have defined roles.
What I have noticed is a lot ofpeople call somebody a practice
manager.
Really, all they are is justthey're running the front desk.
That's it.
Right?
And so in our current system,we need to have defined roles.
Hey, you are gonna be theleader of our L10 meetings,
(08:10):
you're gonna be the one who'sour integrator, I'm the one who
makes the big bold ideas and itfilters down to you.
I need you to hold peopleaccountable.
You know, all this stuff thatis the defined role that we have
here.
We need to have in our systemtoo, we need I need the our
business systems tight tightenedup a little bit.
Someone who's strong with that.
I actually just came from a50-year-old bachelor party this
(08:31):
weekend in Miami.
Wow.
With a bunch of ex-militaryguys, they all graduate, most of
them graduated from West Point.
So I love this term that someof them were talking to me about
when we were talking aboutbusiness.
There's something calledofficer's intent.
So in the military, if we're,let's say there's 30 of us and
we're getting dropped fromhelicopters and we're supposed
to take this mountain.
Well, I'm the commander, I'mthe officer, and I'm gonna lead
(08:54):
you.
But what happens if the secondwe land on the ground, I get
shot in the head?
Do you guys just quit?
No.
We understand what the what thegoal is.
The goal is to take that hill,but you just kind of figure it
out.
So if our goal is to have thisor that 70-75% treatment plan
acceptance, hey, let's figure itout the officer's intent.
(09:14):
In other words, I want you tofigure out what makes it happen.
So, in my opinion, whoever thisis gonna come in from the
outside, they're gonna have theparameters.
These are the systems that wehave in place, but we're not
steadfast.
You can tweak them, feel freeto tweak them, right?
And that's where we are, wherewe were gonna benefit, in my
opinion, from somebody from theoutside.
Paul (09:35):
How do you present that to the team?
I mean, because now you'retransitioning an office manager
that was just recently let go orleft, but you don't have an
office manager anymore.
And that was a decision.
And now you've got a big team,35 people, and I'm sure there's
some people on that team that'ssaying, Well, why not me?
How do you sell that to theteam that you need somebody to
(09:57):
come from the outside, or or wasthat even an issue in your
practice?
Henry (10:00):
Well, I basically just made the statement because I
think that was kind of likestart people starting to think.
And I made the big boldstatement and I explained to
them why this was happening.
We're not holding peopleaccountable.
Some people were gettingpreferential treatment.
Right now, for the first timein the history of this practice,
we're going outside theorganization for this position,
and this is why.
Right.
And for example, one of thepeople that we're interviewing
(10:24):
is coming from a large DSO, andshe has amazing, amazing
business acumen, which is great.
And it's kind of like adentist.
My uh sweet spot for anassociate dentist is somebody
who went to a DSO, hated thefact that they were really pushy
on treatment and weren'tflexible.
Now they've made their mistakespractice-wise, and now they
(10:44):
come to us a wounded bird, andnow they're gonna see that we're
like a great environment.
We're gonna basically like givethem.
I'm not gonna dictate you whatto do, just treat people right,
do the right thing.
And this is uh how I look atthis office manager position.
We're probably gonna hire thisperson.
I had a detailed conversationwith her.
Hey, this is what I expect.
Are you fine with being JohnTaffer and holding people
(11:06):
accountable?
Oh, yes, no problem, you know.
And for us, we need somebodyfrom the outside.
And it's kind of understood asto the reason why.
Paul (11:14):
How about you, Steve?
Like, I mean, you've done both.
Yeah.
Do you primarily lean towardspromoting from within and then
going outside?
Is there one that you lean tomore than the other?
Steve (11:23):
It depends on the situation of why we have that
open leadership position.
But for any position, we willopen it up to anyone who wants
to apply.
And internally, I may have athought of where where I think
we want to go.
But sometimes I've beensurprised when people have
applied that I didn't thinkwould want that level of
responsibility.
(11:43):
I also, in the interviewprocess, am not shy about the
problems that we're trying tosolve.
Exactly.
And I will be very open andask, like, okay, when you come
in here, the problem that you'rehere to solve is accountability
of the team.
Can you walk me through whathow you have developed
(12:04):
accountability and what that'sgoing to look like when you come
here?
Like, paint me the most clearvision of what creating an
accountable team looks like toyou.
And then I want to just sitback and have them teach me and
show me what that would looklike.
And if there are things thatthey say that don't align with
how I how I think the answer is,there are two options I have.
I can either say, well, that'sgreat, but this person isn't
(12:27):
going to be a good fit here.
Or I can also share my visionfor how I would like to create
accountability and push back andgive them feedback in that
interview process and see howthey respond.
And if we develop this back andforth as Henry uses the US,
it's like integrator visionary.
Like if we can develop thisback and forth of like, this is
how I want it to go, and we'reable to come to common ground,
(12:50):
what a great understanding andworking relationship we're
developing.
So I I think the take home forbringing someone in from the
outside is don't shy away fromyour problems in the interview
process.
They are going to find outexactly how shitty everything is
very quickly.
And I think that it's onlygoing to help you to take it on
with them if they'relegitimately going to be your
(13:12):
right-hand person in the office.
Henry (13:14):
Hoorah.
That is exactly what I did,right?
I feel really good now that themaster Steve has given advice
that I already did.
Don't shy away from it.
I said exactly why, where weare, and why you are here
talking to me right now.
Right.
So, and I think it's importantto understand also that conflict
is healthy for an organization,right?
True.
(13:34):
Healthy organizations look atconflict and say, hey, we're
gonna not shy away from it.
We're gonna talk about it,we're gonna do this and that.
Unhealthy organizations ignoreconflict, they walk past it, and
it just brews up into acrescendo.
So thank you for thataffirmation, Steve.
Paul (13:49):
Yeah, that's such a good point.
And it's that's something thatwe're kind of struggling with at
my practice right now.
There's a little bit ofconflict.
You know, I feel like it's amuch better, but there are still
conversations that need to bedrawn out into the open.
And that is our focus with ourleadership team right now, and
that is our focus that we talkedabout our last lead meeting, is
we have really got to get someconversations out into I can't
(14:12):
remember who says it, into thelight or something like that.
You've got to get the lightshine on them.
So like don't think you'restronger because of conflict and
you're stronger because ofdiscussing them, but it's when
you don't do it that's whenthings get worse.
Now, Steve, you mentionedversus bringing somebody in from
outside versus promoting fromwithin, you know, setting
expectations.
When you do bring somebody infrom outside, like how do they
(14:36):
slowly get the respect to theteam?
Because like what I've seen inin certain coaching clients I've
worked with that have been inreally desperate situations
where they've lost somebody verycritical because they had a
very heavy hitter of usuallyit's an office manager and it's
the only person who knows how todo so many things in the
office, and that person leavesand they don't have anyone else
that knows how to do it, theyget in a very desperate
situation where they starthiring people very quickly,
(14:58):
bringing them in, and thensomebody starts just bossing
everybody around.
They're like, hell no, this isnot working.
And then that person leaves andthere's still that void.
And I've seen that happen somany times.
And no matter what, it justseems to happen.
No matter how much we tell thisperson, hey, gain the respect
of people first.
That has been my experiencewith bringing people from the
outside.
And that's why at the beginningof this episode, I said, I have
not seen that work.
Steve (15:18):
Yeah.
We need to create wins for thisperson.
And you don't create wins byimplementing change.
So a lot of times, especiallywith inexperienced leaders, they
think they have the answers,they are the special sauce.
Let me come in and show you howmuch I know and push my
knowledge to fix fix the issuethat I'm here to solve.
(15:41):
That is not going to get peopleto believe and trust, trust,
and respect you.
So, what I want them to dobefore they even they have a
vision, we've talked about it.
We need to have one-on-oneswith everyone because what I
think might be our biggestissue, and what from my
perspective, maybe the practicefrom a bird's eye view may need
to work on may not be whateveryone's feeling individually.
(16:04):
So I need that person to comein and say, I'd love to learn
about what you do.
I'd love to learn about how youdo this, I'd love to learn what
works well here.
I'd love to learn what anoffice manager looks like in
your eyes.
And I'm just going to takenotes.
I don't know if I'm going to beable to do any of these things
or all of these things, but Ijust want to understand.
(16:26):
So that first 30 days on thatperson checklist is a one-on-one
with every single person in theoffice.
We can't celebrate wins or wecan't implement change until we
have the buy-in of the team andthat this person is the right
one to make those changes.
So that is where we start that.
But even before that, we're allgoing to have a team meeting,
(16:48):
like a group meeting, and say,this person is going to be our
manager.
This is what I expect this tolook like for the next 90 days.
If it doesn't feel like there'sa lot of change, it's because
there isn't.
So the expectation isn't goingto be because this person's
here, your life is noweverything, all our problems are
(17:08):
solved.
That's an unfair expectation.
This person is here because weneed someone to help navigate
our challenges, help support usthrough the tough days, and
whatever else we expect ourexpectations are of that
manager.
So take the time to let thisperson integrate to the
position.
And that could be six plusmonths before you see any
(17:31):
traction in a position ofleadership.
Don't evaluate them on problemsthat you created, evaluate them
on problems that they are ableto solve and then go from there.
Henry (17:42):
I wanted to make an important point that I think is
really, really important,especially in a larger practice.
Maybe I'm the Neanderthal here.
I always have sports analogies.
I'm a big sports guy.
So it's like in baseball,develop your bullpen or
football, have a backupquarterback that's ready to go,
ready to go.
So for example, in ourleadership team, we have a team
lead that's a hygienist forhygienists.
(18:03):
We have a team lead that's incharge of marketing.
You know what?
That team lead that's in chargeof marketing just also happens
to be a hygienist.
So we've got a backup.
So if the main one that's forready hygienists isn't there or
it has to be out for an extendedperiod of time, boom, we've
already got them ready to go.
We have another team leadthat's our for dental
assistants.
We have another one that's forsedation.
Well, you know what?
(18:23):
Same thing.
They're both dental assistants.
The same thing has happenedover time for office manager.
Years ago, I had an officemanager just write down every
single task, like a monthlylittle thing here.
Just write down every singletask that you do.
And in that case, I was like,you know, the old thing of what
are you really good at?
What do you like doing?
And all this stuff.
But hand over as many things asyou can, but audit it.
(18:44):
And we did that years ago.
So that's why right now we'restill functioning.
We're still cash flowing.
We're still doing the same asbefore.
Nothing has changed.
Obviously, if we keep on thispath, we're gonna have problems,
right?
But right now we have ourbullpen.
It's progressing fine.
The backup quarterback isleading us through this four or
five stretch of games here.
We're fine.
Steve (19:05):
Yeah.
Henry, I love, I love that yousaid that talking about the
bench.
I think that for me willdifferentiate is this a promote
from within or higher from theoutside?
The strength of the bench is abig determinant of which path
that I take.
So when when leaders get to acertain point, it is their
ability to create the strengthin their bench that will allow
(19:25):
them to continue to grow.
And that again will allow us toknow how do we navigate if if
we have holes in the startinglimit.
Henry (19:34):
And I'm sorry, I forgot to make this point.
This is for coaching clients,right?
I've seen this.
You mentioned this, Paul, issomebody's, oh my God, I lost my
practice mentor.
She's the only one who knowshow to do this.
She's the only one that knowshow to do this.
You have really screwedyourself.
And that's the person that'sgoing to hire too quickly in a
feverish attempt to get somebodyin there.
So that's why you develop yourbullpen and we're good, right?
(19:56):
We're good for a while.
We're not going to be forever,but we can mosey along just fine
for a while.
Paul (20:01):
Yeah, so true.
Something I want to come backto that Steve said is during
these one-on-ones, like such agreat question for this person's
new position to ask theirreports.
I don't know, their departmentis in your eyes, what does an OM
look like?
You know, and I think that'ssomething for us, like to ask
our teams as well.
You know, as a leader of thispractice, what does that look
(20:22):
like for you?
What is an ideal behavior forme?
What is the role that I amtrying to serve for you?
We talked about servantleadership and stuff.
I think that's such a greatthing because they're coming
into this position blindly, notknowing what the expectations
are of them from the teammembers.
So this is a great like way toone, get the you one, you get
(20:43):
the respect of the team, buttwo, like you're also listening
for issues, you're validatingthe concerns of the team, and
you're winning people overbefore you step in and start
changing something.
And I love that you saidsetting the expectation that
change is not going to happenfast.
We don't expect change tohappen.
It's a slow process.
But that is likely why I thinkI've not seen it work in the
people that I've worked withthat have done this, and it's
(21:05):
exactly what you said, Henry.
They're so just front-endloaded on one person that knows
how to do everything.
They didn't onboard anyoneelse, they didn't train anyone
else, and they lost them, andnow they're in a pinch.
Steve (21:17):
I know how hard it is to kind of fill these office
manager positions.
I think the the take-home isconstantly be building your
bullpen, just like Henry said.
But also and be clear on theexpectations for that, for that
practice manager.
And most importantly, bepatient with yourself, be
patient with this new hirebecause it is going to take
(21:39):
longer than you think it will.
And then you look back in ayear or two and you're like,
thank God I invested so much inthis person.
But it takes that long to learnwho you are, learn the
position, learn all the peoplethey're responsible for, and
focus on results.
It's a big ask that we ask fromthis position.
And patience will always beyour best friend.
Paul (22:00):
Yeah.
And I think, you know, if ifyou're listening to this and
you're thinking about theleadership team in your
practice, this is one of thethings that will literally
change your life is having asolid leadership team so you
don't have to do it all.
And this is the value ofworking with Steve or working
with Henry in helping you withyour practice.
So if you're looking to takeyour practice to the next level,
you're looking for a coach, myguys, I think you heard it
(22:22):
today.
These two guys know whatthey're talking about.
And, you know, having a littlesolid lead at your practice,
man, does that take a lot ofpressure off you as the owner?
So thank you so much forlistening, and we'll talk to you
next time.
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