July 17, 2025 • 38 mins
Your practice is thriving, so why not sell? DPH coach Dr. Steve Markowitz owns a six-practice dental group and seriously considered cashing out, but he realized he wasn't ready to let go.
In this episode, he shares why he decided not to sell even after hitting his $10M revenue goal and what changed about his approach to ownership. You'll hear the changes that helped him become a better leader, shift out of burnout, and redefine his purpose. Learn why selling isn't always the best move!
Topics discussed in this episode:
- Why Steve didn’t sell his practice
- Reevaluating the practice and his role as owner
- The new goal for his practice
- Changes that leveled up his practice
- What he does to grow as a leader
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
If your practice was worth well into eight-figure
land, would you consider sellingit?
Well, you know Dr SteveMarkowitz from the show.
He's a co-host, he's one of theDPH coaches and he owns six
practices, and today we're goingto dig deeper into why he
personally has not sold any ofhis practices.
He built an awesome group,hired an investment banker and
(00:24):
got serious about selling at onepoint, but still decided it
wasn't his time.
In this episode, we talk aboutthe deeper questions that he had
to ask himself and the changesin his mindset that helped him
focus on leadership, growthbeyond revenue and the next
phase of his business.
That was right for himpersonally.
This is an extremelyenlightening episode and one
that you're not going to want tomiss, no matter where you are
(00:46):
in your practice career.
Stay tuned.
You are listening to DentalPractice Heroes, where we help
you to create a team andsystem-driven dental practice,
one that allows you to practiceless and make more money.
I'm Dr Paul Etcheson, a dentalcoach, author of two books on
dental practice management andthe owner of a five-doctor
practice in the south suburbs ofChicago.
I want to show you how beingintentional about ownership can
(01:09):
create a practice that supportsyour life instead of consuming
it.
So if you're ready to create atrue business that runs without
you, you're in the right place.
Let's get started.
Welcome back to the DentalPractice Heroes podcast.
I'm your host, dr Paul Etchison, and I'm joined by one of my
DPH coaches, a good friend, drSteve Markowitz, who's got tons
(01:32):
of experience in the dentalindustry.
I mean, he's got multiplepractices.
He's looking really good today.
He's got a I want to describethis for the listeners is he's
got a nice trim haircut.
He's got about maybe not a fiveo'clock haircut.
He's got about maybe not a fiveo'clock but maybe an eight
o'clock shadow.
He's nicely stubble short,stubble kind of like as we like
to do.
He's got a golf shirt on.
I don't know if he's goinggolfing.
Is he going golfing?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
I'm not going golfing today, but I knew that we were
going to be talking and I waslike I'm going to shower today.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
I'm going to put on really good today.
I don't know how I can tellthat, but I can just look at it.
I can see it.
You just know when someonesmells good, you can look at it
and I just know right now.
So, dude, we're talking about.
You know this is a great topicbecause this is something that I
get asked all the time Are youhappy you sold?
Are you happy you sold?
I Are you happy you sold?
(02:26):
I'm almost five years out frommy sale and Steve's in a
situation where he's got sixpractices, a large EBITDA, a
large organization where I thinkmost people with a single
practice would say they wouldhave sold a long time ago.
But it's easy to say whenyou're not in the situation.
So we thought we would go deepinto Steve why do you still own
all these practices and have youever considered selling?
(02:47):
So I mean, what are yourthoughts on the matter?
I know this is something you'vethought about.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
A hundred percent, and it's probably the question
that I get from outside dentists, one of the top couple
questions that I get all thetime of what makes you keep
going?
Why do you, why don't you, whydon't you sell and cash out and
go live on a beach and go hangout with Paul?
It's not that I don't want todo all those things, it's just
that I don't think I'm there yet, and what I mean by that is I
(03:15):
don't know what I would do withmy time.
It still fills my bucket, itfills my days and I, in some
capacity, am really enjoyingwhat I'm doing, and I think
there's more that I have to give.
As I'm saying it now, it soundscorny For people who know my
story.
My dad was a dentist.
He wanted to create a group.
(03:36):
The name of my group is MFD.
I never got the opportunity towork with my dad.
He's still alive, but had a badaccident.
Mfd stands for my fucking dadto work with my dad.
He's still alive, but had a badaccident.
Mfd stands for my fucking dad.
It's just a tribute to him.
I didn't know that and last yearI was really struggling with
who we are as a group and likedo I have what it takes to keep
(03:57):
going?
Am I good enough?
And we had a practice thatdidn't work out as well as I
thought it had.
It was my first kind of setbackthat didn't work out as well as
I thought it had.
It was my first kind of setbackand I was like, maybe this is
it, maybe I've kind of takenthis as far as I can.
So I hired an investment bankand I went through the process
of evaluating and seeing whatwas out there and as I got
(04:18):
through that process, two thingshappened.
One it felt empty.
Seeing the dollar amount, I waslike the mission or the vision
is to have this be tribute to mydad, who wanted to create this
group that would take great careof people and be a place where
people love to go to work.
So putting the dollar amountthat I was looking at didn't
(04:39):
match the value that I thought Ihad created and it felt I don't
know if it was disappointing,but it was like that's not
enough for what I want myfather's legacy to be.
I mean, it's enough for me tolive on, but it didn't fill that
bucket.
And then the second part thathappened, which I think is even
(05:02):
more beautiful to me personallyis my wife is way smarter and
prettier than me.
She doesn't smell as good as Ido, paul, but you know that.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
That's like one of those things is, you know, like
you know, somebody smells good.
I knew your wife was made wayprettier than you.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, I get that a lot and she is incredibly
operational, sound andunderstands people at a level
that I work towards.
She was in biotech for yearsand was climbing the corporate
ladder and she saw that I wasgoing through this process and
understanding what it meant, butalso knew that wasn't what I
(05:39):
wanted to do.
She actually left biotech andwas like I'm going to come help
you out.
She actually left biotech andwas like I'm going to come help
you out.
I'm going to be part of MFD totake some of those things that
are weighing you down and Ithink I might be able to be a
sounding board for me and createmore focus.
And since she started, we'veour EBITDAs.
(05:59):
We've added a I don't know 40%more to our EBITDA between 30
and 40% to our EBITDA, which isgreat.
But also it's incredible to seesomeone that you care so much
about, like your wife, be justso good at something Wow.
So I don't get into that levelof detail.
When people ask me why I don'tsell, I just say you know what?
(06:20):
I'm not there yet.
I feel like we have more togive.
But say you know what?
I'm not there yet.
I feel like we have more togive, but the story there's more
to unpack.
I started this.
It was never section.
I mean, when I first startedbuilding the group I had this
wild goal of if I could get to$10 million then that would be
(06:41):
beyond my wildest dreams andwhat a cool thing.
And I was 35 and we got there.
Just to clarify 10 million incollections.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah, in revenue yeah , not valuation.
No, not valuation.
10 millions in collection iswell past 10 million in
valuation, just in case anyone'swondering.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
That wasn't even something I was thinking about.
I was just like I'm a dentist.
When you sell, that meansyou're 60, 70 years old and you
just you go from that chair tolike a nursing home chair, and
that was just what I thoughtMight smell different.
(07:20):
Define what my goals are, andthat was a big, big challenge
for me and I think we're goingto talk about this later.
But redefining goals and makingthem clear and motivating
enough is really the pull thatyou need to get past some of the
challenges that happen in agroup of 150 plus people.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Yeah, well, you know, like I got some follow-up
questions for you because I mean, this is I know people
listening are like holy shit,like I totally feel for this,
because this is so relatable toso many people and everybody has
these goals.
We have goals that we want toreach.
I went through it with mypractice sale.
Now, with my practice sale, man, it's so much of it was fueled
(08:06):
by burnout and I and I think inretrospect, I think that's the
wrong reason to sell.
Yeah, I think my problem was Ifelt like my problem was the
practice.
I just needed to get it out ofmy life.
Yeah, and what I learned lateron was it wasn't the practice,
it was the way I was running thepractice that I needed help.
I needed to bring more leadersinto it, and that's what made
(08:27):
the practice really good for meand that's why I'm still there
now.
Now, you mentioned not knowingwhat you were going to do, had
you did sell.
Was the reason for staying thatyou just didn't have an
alternative, or was it more sothat you really liked it?
Speaker 2 (08:42):
That was part of the motivation, but I think it was
more, that it's not just that Ididn't have anything to do, it's
also that this is so wrapped upin my identity of I don't even
know who I am if it's not for mypractice, for my group and that
is what I'm trying to right nowwork through redefining of.
(09:05):
Like it's not that I care lessabout the success of our group,
I care as much as I ever have.
It's that how do I care asdeeply as I always have but also
be someone who is more thanjust a leader of a dental group?
And for so long those twoidentity, like the identity of
(09:27):
Steve and that were sointertwined you couldn't see one
without the other and I almostwas like there were times where
I would talk to my friends.
I'm like I think I'm frickingboring, like if I'm not talking
about the office, I don't evenknow if I know how to talk to my
friends and uh, and I'm likethat's not who I want to be,
like.
I want that to be a part of me,but I don't want that to be all
(09:47):
of me and that I think that is,for me, part of my intention.
Moving forward in this nextphase is how do I be just as
good a leader, care just as much, but also put that in its place
where this is an important partof my life it is not the only
part of my life and be just aseffective, if not more effective
(10:11):
, because I'm not being weigheddown by some of the
interpersonal crap or some ofthe things that aren't important
to the success of our practiceand our patients.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
When I'm thinking about, like when I sold and I
mentioned, like the burnout, andI think a lot of people want to
get to the sale because they'relike I don't have balance, I
don't see my family, I'm notdoing good with my spouse.
It's this goddamn practice.
I need it out of my life.
Now, when you were deciding allthis stuff, like getting the
investment bank and decidingbefore your wife came on board,
(10:45):
did you feel like you hadbalance at that point?
I mean, because that's what I'mwondering is, like when you're
looking at selling it, was therea motivating factor that you
were lacking balance in yourlife, or did you already have
that?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
I don't think I've me personally.
I don't think I've ever hadbalance, and that's not just for
work, it's for like, that'sjust part of my wiring.
That is unique to me is that ifthere's something that I care
about, I'm going all in,whatever that is Like.
Today, I chose to go all in onthis golf shirt and there was no
(11:14):
other thing I was going to wear.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Yeah, what was the balance like at that point when
you were seeking out a sale?
Do you feel like you werepossibly trying to seek balance
by looking for a sale?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah, I think that was part of the search I was
going for and I also think, ifI'm being fully honest with
myself, I was.
I didn't know if I was goodenough to keep this thing
growing.
I was seeing some of my ownweaknesses show through in how
(11:44):
my organization was operatingand then to see someone like
Lynn, like my wife, do it what Isaw, it's so much better.
It was like, oh okay, maybethere needs to be someone who
has true business experience,has greater capital access, like
(12:04):
, maybe it's not, maybe it'sjust that I've reached my
ceiling and we talk about thatin every other position.
How do I level up, or can Ilevel up or do I have the will
to level up?
Because I'm seeing all of theseexamples of how my inabilities
(12:25):
at this point were the reasonwhy we were having so much
friction with continuing to addlocations or grow our leaders.
What I found was which wasanother challenge right now we
have five or six layers ofmanagement in our group and each
(12:46):
layer has to love their managerand if their manager loves
their manager, who loves theirmanager, who loves their manager
, who loves me, that personwho's sitting chair side or
answering the phones or doinginsurance verification is going
to love me.
If, at any point, there's abreakdown in that person really
(13:07):
trusting and loving theirmanager, the trust and love in
me is also gone.
There is the trust and love inme is also gone and that was
super hard for me to understandof how do I get that person to
see what my intention is, thatwe're so far away Like I maybe
have had.
Maybe I talked to this persontwo or three times a year and
(13:30):
it's very surface level.
How can I get them to care likeI did when it was small, when I
knew every single person andknew everything about them and
was super connected?
That was the challenge that Iwas working through of like, yes
, I want to grow, yes, I want tostay connected.
How do I do that and make surethat I'm the right?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
person to lead it.
You know I want to piggybackoff this, but then I do want to
circle back to something else.
But this trust and love, yourmanager thing.
Now what is your role in that?
I mean, I would imagine you'vegot to make sure to your direct
reports you are treating themwell, but how do you reach
further to make sure that theyare trusted and loved by their I
(14:14):
don't know?
I don't want to saysubordinates, but I know what
the proper, there's a properword that's probably better than
that.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
The people they serve yeah exactly.
That's a better way of saying it, it's a really hard way to
measure.
What I would encourage everyonewho has multiple layers of
management in their organization, whether it be dentistry or not
, is you can't only get oneperson's perspective.
So if you get all of yourinformation from just the person
(14:41):
who reports to you and they saysomeone who reports to them is
a jerk, you're not finding outenough.
So I'm not saying in everysituation, but you do need to
fact check, even relationships,so that you can see it for
yourself.
And if there are, what I lookfor at this point is it's okay
if there's one person thatdoesn't like their manager,
(15:04):
perfectly fine.
There are definitely peoplethat don't like me.
It's going to happen.
Everyone can't love everybody,but my job at this point is to
look for trends.
So if this person has an issue,and then this person has an
issue and then this person hasan issue it can't always be
everybody else.
Now let me go and find out.
Or if this person's new in aleadership position, we need to
(15:26):
go down to that their people,they are leading and say how is
this person doing?
What's your perspective on thissituation?
Get as much information as youcan, and it's not to get that
new leader or that person whoreports to me in trouble, it's
actually to benefit them and ifI go into any conversation that
I'm having truly to understandwhat that other perspective is
(15:49):
and it's to help and grow theperson who is being led as well
as the leader then I have enoughinformation at that point to
truly understand.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
So I'm thinking about , like you've got this large
organization.
I'm thinking about mostlisteners.
I mean, they don't have this,but they do have some level of
management in their practice.
A lot of people do have anoffice manager and I often hear
that people say I really like myoffice manager, they're doing a
really good job, they're mynumber one person, but I just
don't think they handle thingswell with the team.
And I think if that owner docwas to go and do one-on-ones
(16:24):
with everyone on their team,they might find out that there
are some things that theiroffice manager is not doing or
not doing well that they want toaddress.
But at the same time, thestruggle is how do they talk to
the office manager about thatwithout ratting out other people
who said things behind theirback?
Yeah, how do they take all thisnegative information and turn
it into a positive?
Because I think that's whatyou're saying is you got to go
(16:45):
around to people?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Yeah, that is a great question.
First, what I find in dentaloffices is the meetings or the
interpersonal stuff is the firstthing that the dentist or the
owner delegates and I'm puttingthat in quotes to their office
manager, without any training orunderstanding of what that
conversation or how that shouldgo.
So before even telling theoffice manager that they're
(17:10):
doing a bad job, you got to showthem what excellent is and if
you think that you're doing agreat job at that, bring them in
to show them how you would dothat.
When I'm going into havingthese difficult conversations,
initially they're going to bethere with me and I'm going to
lead it, and then they canmirror or mimic what I'm doing.
So that's step one is we needto train them and they need to
(17:31):
be able to see what is possiblewith these delicate and
difficult conversations.
They can't just be advocated.
And then the second part of itis how do we understand how
those conversations arehappening and how they're
happening in a way that the teammembers being heard, that they
feel good but also that they'rehonest?
(17:53):
And a couple of things withthat.
One is the results will speakfor themselves.
So most often when there is adifficult conversation,
especially from an officemanager to someone on their team
.
It's difficult because we'retrying to correct the behavior
People don't like in general,don't like to be told they're
(18:15):
not doing a great job.
So it may just be part of thedifficulty of what it is to be
an office manager is you need tobe the person to tell people
they're not doing a good job.
So that's number one.
Also, within thoseconversations, it's how do we
have that conversation in a kindway and how do we start it and
(18:37):
finish it in a way that theperson who's receiving that
information knows it's for theirbenefit.
And that is where is on,ultimately on me as the owner,
to ensure that that's happening.
And I think that if we starthaving those conversations with
I know it's important for you tobe really good at your job what
(18:58):
I'm seeing is this, this andthis that are not aligning with
what I know is so important toyou.
Can we talk that out togetherand then can we create a plan
together so that next time wetalk I know how to best support
you in making sure that you'redoing X, y and Z and not of what
(19:20):
happens a lot in thoseconversations.
And now we're talking aboutcommunication.
I don't know how we got here,but no, this is good.
What happens?
A lot in those conversations?
It's more of a I'm going totalk down to you and not bring
you into the conversation, and alot of the time it's because
we're not asking the rightquestions.
Almost every time, as theleader, we're not asking enough
(19:43):
or the right questions Curiosity, and we're just telling
something that isn't how wethink it should look.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
That's so true man.
That isn't how we think itshould look.
That's so true man.
And I think a lot of practiceowners, unfortunately, we avoid
the conversation altogether andI think it's great that you're
pointing that out, because thereis it's so obvious that the
people that are having a lot ofsuccess are the people that are
willing to have theseconversations.
Now I want to circle back tosomething you said earlier,
because people might listen tothis and they say, yeah, sure,
(20:14):
steve, you're a greatcommunicator.
Yeah, you talk to people reallywell.
You've got all these skills.
You're naturally gifted in allthese ways.
But I love that you mentionedyou reached a certain point
professionally where you feltlike your weaknesses us can
relate to that, and we reach itmaybe at different levels and in
different areas of our life.
(20:35):
But I mean, I think when I soldmy practice, it was amplifying
a weakness, it was negativity inmy life coming from the
practice because of my lack ofneeding to level up my
leadership to create otherleaders.
That was what I look back on it.
You realize some of yourweaknesses.
I wonder if you could talkabout those and just share, like
what you did with that to getto the next level.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah, I don't know if we've talked about this on one
of our episodes, but I have abusiness coach.
I've had a business coach for along time and I've already
shared this you can tell me toshut up and we recently, in the
past six months, brought on aCOO and my coach his name's Bob.
Bob, was saying how's it going?
How's it going with with uh,her name's Vanessa, how's it
(21:17):
going with Vanessa?
I was like it's going great.
We're I think we're reallyVanessa is is the COO in my
organization and I think it'sgoing great.
I really feel like I'm gettingsome trust.
I was with her this morning andI was just venting about one of
the doctors and he just stoppedbeing in my tracks.
He goes what do you mean?
You were venting?
I was like, well, I was just.
You know she was doingsomething stupid.
(21:39):
The doctor was doing somethingstupid and I was just venting to
Vanessa and he, bob's never hadan opinion ever.
He's the type of coach thatwill like, ask me questions and
wants me to figure it out formyself, and he goes don't you
ever effing do that again, likebecause of our relationship.
It stopped Like literally, Itook a blow.
(21:59):
I was like, whoa, what was that?
And he's like you, um, you wantto be the CEO of this company?
Right, that's who you are.
You're the CEO of this company.
I was like, well, I've beentrying to make a joke.
I'm like, yeah, that's what itsays on my LinkedIn.
And he's like, if you want tobe the leader of this
organization, you can never dothat again, because now this
(22:19):
person has a.
That's what they're going tosee when they go and talk to
that doctor.
And I was so taken back becauseit just took and opened my
blind spot like nothing that'sever happened to me before,
opened my blind spot likenothing that's ever happened to
me before, and it was right.
In that moment I was like, whoa, that part of me is what I
thought got me to this point.
(22:39):
It was Steve's genuine.
If someone wants to know how I'mfeeling, I'm going to tell them
.
And now, how do I have to becalculated?
I have to think before I talk,like that's not who I am.
No-transcript, I can't be thatperson.
(23:00):
So how do I navigate this?
So I think there's situationslike that where you sit back and
you're like, okay, is it moreimportant for me to grow, or is
it more important for me to bethe person that I think people
want to love.
What does the organization needfrom me?
And this is what I'm sitting inCurrently.
(23:21):
I think I'm doing a much betterjob.
There are still days where I'mlike I really need to.
I need to.
I feel myself stopping andthinking before I'm talking,
which is so different for me.
But that's what theorganization needs.
And if I'm going to level upand if I level up, that means
the organization can too then weall grow and we all benefit.
(23:43):
So I need to be able to pushmyself but also be willing to
have conversations like this anduncover some of this crap.
That doesn't feel good and whatI learned from those
conversations as someone who,just because I thought I was a
good leader then, doesn't meanthere isn't so much more for me
to learn and grow.
And I think, to get back tolike why I didn't sell it was
(24:06):
conversations like that of like,oh whoa, I'm not at the
pinnacle, I don't knoweverything, I'm just scratching
the surface.
The more I know, the more Irealize I don't know, and that
actually can create someexcitement for me of like, all
right, what's the next level ofthis look like.
How do I have the same mission,which is create the legacy that
(24:33):
my dad wasn't able to create,this amazing experience for
patients and my team members?
But the mission is the same,but now the vision may be
slightly different.
But the mission's the same, butnow the vision may be slightly
different.
And how do I go through thatvision creation process again
with an organization that'scontinuing to move at a really
rapid rate?
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Well, you're taking something that some people might
say you know you've reachedmaintenance standpoint and the
way I relate to this is like, oh, we're growing, we're growing,
we're growing.
We expanded from five to 11.
Growing in revenue, we maxed itout.
Guess what?
We're maxed out Nowhere else togo.
But that's only looking from afinancial perspective.
You're taking you know you'resaying my leadership, my
personal stuff, and you are.
(25:12):
You're bringing a new challengeinto your life, which I really
love.
Now, like that's more, speakingon the internal weaknesses, and
was there any situations, likeyou mentioned, that your
weaknesses were amplified, thatyou brought on different people
where maybe they didn't havethat weakness, where you brought
on somebody to support aweakness of yours?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, I mean that was part of the story of bringing
on a COO.
It was, like most, I considermyself an entrepreneur but
that's like such a trendy andcool thing to say, but I chase
shiny things.
I'm not super organized and Iknow.
I know that about myself, but Iknow that if you have 150 plus
(25:55):
people, organization and focusare the two most important
things.
So, bringing on someone, havingLynn here part of this
organization, having Vanessahaving structure and
organization and continued focusLynn is your wife, lynn's my
wife.
Yeah, and that continued focusis the external pieces that will
(26:16):
allow us to get to that nextlevel.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Now, as far as you talking, you mentioned
redefining your goals.
When you're looking at theinvestment base you're looking
to sell, what you found is thatyou weren't ready for that, for
multiple reasons, but one youmentioned redefining your goals.
Can you elaborate on that alittle bit?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Sure, I think when it's new, when it was new and
exciting, it was for me.
Me it was so easy and I talkedto this about with my doctors.
A lot of like nobody's bornwith a passion for dentistry,
like that's it'd be weird, itwould be weird, but I don't
think anyone has a passion foranything.
(26:57):
They're not born like that.
I truly believe that people,they do something're good at it,
they do more of it, and themore they do of it, the more
they see how it impacts othersand then they become passionate
about it.
That's the same thing with whenyou're truly setting these
giant goals.
It needs to be something thatis pulling you, that you have to
(27:19):
do, and that's, I think, for mein this.
I don't know the Simon Sinekbook like infinite game, like
that's how I kind of think about.
How do we set goals that pullus but also know the real goal
is like we just got to keep thisthing going and there's no way
to truly measure it.
So that's the balance of likeall right, we do need finite
(27:41):
goals, we do need things thathelp pull us and they need to be
able to be measured, but alsowe have this pie in the sky
thing of taking amazing care ofpeople that you can't truly
measure.
And if it's, you have a 16%EBITDA or 19% EBITDA.
Who gives a shit?
And I think that that comeswith experience too.
(28:03):
So that is the process that I'mgoing through now.
I don't know the answer.
I still have so many morequestions of what is going to be
that thing that is excitingenough, motivating enough and
that I am passionate about that.
I'm excited to wake up at fivein the morning to go do and I
(28:24):
don't want to be doing anythingelse.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Yeah, I think I can relate in the sense that I can
tell the listeners, when I soldmy practice, when I joined a DSO
, that passion for growth waspretty much gone and it's
unfortunate.
But it's most like my mainfocus at the office now is just
to make it a great place forpeople.
I don't care as much about thegrowth in the numbers because
(28:47):
I'm not getting any directbenefit of it.
But what I would say is thatbefore I sold my practice, until
about maybe two years ago,there was part of me that wanted
to stop this podcast.
And what was I doing?
I was reaching out to people, wewere interviewing them, we were
coming up with some solo topicsand stuff like that.
But then what I did is I hireda coach and then I saw wow,
(29:08):
there's a better way to create ahook.
There's a better way.
I still have a coach I meetwith weekly that we go through
questions.
I think you should ask thisquestion this way, there's a
better way to create a story arcand when realizing there's so
much art and so much more for meto learn about, just
broadcasting in general hasignited that passion for
podcasting.
Yeah, that I remember back inhaving it for the dental office.
(29:30):
Now you mentioned having acoach in your organization for
your level of running sixpractices and most people would
say, dude, you're there.
What more could you possibly dobut speak on how coaches have
affected your growth throughyour life and how they keep you
passionate?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Yeah, that's a great question, and I have had
different coaches, and sometimesthey're even coaches without
even knowing.
I would consider you, paul,someone who's coached me from
afar.
Thanks, before you even stalkedme to be part of this thing.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Yeah, I stalked you a really long time.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
I know about your food preferences, I know what
you do in the middle of thenight, but for me, I knew that
it was always a challenge for meto do the things I said I was
going to do, and what a coachhas allowed me to do is throw
out all the things out loud,sift through some maybe good
ideas or not so good ideas, andthen someone to report back to.
(30:30):
And because practice ownershipis or any business leader is so
lonely, it's so important tohave someone to hold you
accountable to the things thatyou're going to do.
It's the reason why everyFortune 100 company has a board
of directors.
It's not because they don'tthink the CEO is good, but they
(30:50):
need someone to tell the CEOexactly to make sure he's doing
what is in the best interest ofwhat he said he was going to do.
And I use that as my personalboard of directors.
I think a coach is just likethat for me.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Yeah, and I would like to tell listeners I mean,
steve does coaching with DentalPractice Heroes.
I'm on the podcast much moreand sometimes people want to
work with me but Steve issomebody who is well past where
I have ever gotten to as far asmanagement perspective and I
think you heard it on thisepisode.
You got to hear the ways thathe's worked through coaches and
how he could work with you tolevel up and make dentistry
(31:24):
hopefully interesting again.
Totally agree about the passionthing man.
Nobody's like man.
What are you really passionateabout?
I love teeth Just the waythey're so shiny and little.
You know.
Like no one's going to be like.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Oh man, I just it is amazing, Like when you go back.
I think I even said in mydental school interview that I
was passionate about dentistry.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Oh man, I think we all did, you have no freaking
clue.
I wonder how they read those ifthey just go.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
They probably should.
I would love to go back and belike all right, I want to
actually interview, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Now that I know it's like when they give.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
This is so dental, school-y, but like they give
biomaterials in your first sixweeks there.
You have no clue what any ofthese things are.
It's so back.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
It really is.
It's beautiful.
So I I got accepted dentalschool and then I declined it to
be part of a band for a year.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
And we just did that.
Oh, I knew that, I did knowthat.
I didn't know you already gotinto dental school at that point
.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
No, I was already in.
I was already, I alreadyaccepted.
I had to go and like, justremove it and they said I would
have to apply the next year.
Now, the next year, I decidedto apply and I like almost
self-sabotage myself.
I wanted a reason to stay inthis band and I did an actual
interview and I remember theymust've thought I was such an
arrogant, fricking prick.
But they were asking me aquestion about cheating and I'm
like I don't care, I don't careabout cheating, I'm not cheating
(32:41):
, but it's not my problem.
If I see somebody cheating, whyshould it be?
Well, the academic code.
I'm like not my problem.
I'm not ruining somebody's life, I'm going to stay in my own
lane.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
And now look at you.
You got in flying colors.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Yeah, I think partially.
I didn't want to get in, Iwanted to stay in.
Oh, dude.
Well, it's funny because wewere sitting, me and my buddy
Jake.
We're sitting at the bar and itwas me and him and we would
drink probably three, fournights a week and he was a
teacher in Champaign County.
You know, he stayed where.
We went to college and got ateaching job and I was like dude
, I think I'm gonna go to dentalschool.
I think making $15 an hour atRadio Shack's just not going.
What do you mean?
(33:18):
He's like dude.
We used to have like 35, 40friends here.
It's me and you.
I'm no longer a student, I'mnot a grad student, I'm a
fucking townie.
I'm like a townie at a collegetown that's going to college
bars and hanging out withcollege kids Not what I want to
be.
So it's dental school.
And now look at you, yeah right.
(33:43):
So, dude man, I love thisinterview, dude.
I don't know if we're gonnabreak this up into two or not,
but I think this is just sorelatable for so many people,
and I think this is stuff thatreally would have some listeners
thinking about their why andthe feelings that they're having
as a practice owner and notlooking to the exit as the
solution.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
I guess that's a good question for you.
I'm sure Is it what you thoughtit was going to be?
Speaker 1 (34:06):
No, not at all.
When you sold Zero, absolutelynot, absolutely not.
And I listen to you now talkand I say I want what Steve has,
I want this, I want to runpractices without doing
dentistry and that's what I'mmigrating myself to.
I'm going to be non-clinicalwithin a year now, but I've
realized through that the salewasn't what I thought it was
(34:29):
going to be.
And if you have something elseto do, maybe, but I have the
podcast, I have the coaching,but I still love being in
dentistry.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
I do too.
I think people and I was again.
This is again anotherconversation that I was just
having with one of my doctors,and it's again sounds corny, but
like, the more that I go aroundthe sun and the more experience
that I have, the goal isactually the journey, not this
destination, and I know thatsounds corny, but I could not
believe it more than I do now.
(34:56):
If you get to enjoy what you'redoing and feel like you're
adding, creating value andimpact in the world, then you
win.
You win.
And whether you have a dollarin the bank or a hundred million
dollars in the bank, I was justas fricking happy when I had a
dollar in the bank and I didn'teven know.
So we create these fictitiousgoals that maybe don't even
(35:19):
really fill the bucket the waythat we want them to, and I'm
happy to expand on that.
If anyone has any questions,they can.
Clearly, I don't have a filter,which is probably what this
whole thing is about, and Iovershared all of my crap.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
It is so true, man.
Well, hey, if you're thinkingabout hiring a coach for your
practice or leveling up yourpractice so you can live a
better life, be more engaged andreap more rewards that comes
from dental practice ownership,Check out our website,
dentalpracticeheroescom.
You can work with Steve.
He'll set up a free strategycall with you.
So thanks so much, Steve.
This was really absolutelyfantastic.
Man Appreciate it.
Love you both.
(35:54):
Thank you.
If your practice was worth well into eight-figure
land, would you consider sellingit?
Well, you know Dr SteveMarkowitz from the show.
He's a co-host, he's one of theDPH coaches and he owns six
practices, and today we're goingto dig deeper into why he
personally has not sold any ofhis practices.
He built an awesome group,hired an investment banker and
(00:24):
got serious about selling at onepoint, but still decided it
wasn't his time.
In this episode, we talk aboutthe deeper questions that he had
to ask himself and the changesin his mindset that helped him
focus on leadership, growthbeyond revenue and the next
phase of his business.
That was right for himpersonally.
This is an extremelyenlightening episode and one
that you're not going to want tomiss, no matter where you are
(00:46):
in your practice career.
Stay tuned.
You are listening to DentalPractice Heroes, where we help
you to create a team andsystem-driven dental practice,
one that allows you to practiceless and make more money.
I'm Dr Paul Etcheson, a dentalcoach, author of two books on
dental practice management andthe owner of a five-doctor
practice in the south suburbs ofChicago.
I want to show you how beingintentional about ownership can
(01:09):
create a practice that supportsyour life instead of consuming
it.
So if you're ready to create atrue business that runs without
you, you're in the right place.
Let's get started.
Welcome back to the DentalPractice Heroes podcast.
I'm your host, dr Paul Etchison, and I'm joined by one of my
DPH coaches, a good friend, drSteve Markowitz, who's got tons
(01:32):
of experience in the dentalindustry.
I mean, he's got multiplepractices.
He's looking really good today.
He's got a I want to describethis for the listeners is he's
got a nice trim haircut.
He's got about maybe not a fiveo'clock haircut.
He's got about maybe not a fiveo'clock but maybe an eight
o'clock shadow.
He's nicely stubble short,stubble kind of like as we like
to do.
He's got a golf shirt on.
I don't know if he's goinggolfing.
Is he going golfing?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
I'm not going golfing today, but I knew that we were
going to be talking and I waslike I'm going to shower today.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
I'm going to put on really good today.
I don't know how I can tellthat, but I can just look at it.
I can see it.
You just know when someonesmells good, you can look at it
and I just know right now.
So, dude, we're talking about.
You know this is a great topicbecause this is something that I
get asked all the time Are youhappy you sold?
Are you happy you sold?
I Are you happy you sold?
(02:26):
I'm almost five years out frommy sale and Steve's in a
situation where he's got sixpractices, a large EBITDA, a
large organization where I thinkmost people with a single
practice would say they wouldhave sold a long time ago.
But it's easy to say whenyou're not in the situation.
So we thought we would go deepinto Steve why do you still own
all these practices and have youever considered selling?
(02:47):
So I mean, what are yourthoughts on the matter?
I know this is something you'vethought about.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
A hundred percent, and it's probably the question
that I get from outside dentists, one of the top couple
questions that I get all thetime of what makes you keep
going?
Why do you, why don't you, whydon't you sell and cash out and
go live on a beach and go hangout with Paul?
It's not that I don't want todo all those things, it's just
that I don't think I'm there yet, and what I mean by that is I
(03:15):
don't know what I would do withmy time.
It still fills my bucket, itfills my days and I, in some
capacity, am really enjoyingwhat I'm doing, and I think
there's more that I have to give.
As I'm saying it now, it soundscorny For people who know my
story.
My dad was a dentist.
He wanted to create a group.
(03:36):
The name of my group is MFD.
I never got the opportunity towork with my dad.
He's still alive, but had a badaccident.
Mfd stands for my fucking dadto work with my dad.
He's still alive, but had a badaccident.
Mfd stands for my fucking dad.
It's just a tribute to him.
I didn't know that and last yearI was really struggling with
who we are as a group and likedo I have what it takes to keep
(03:57):
going?
Am I good enough?
And we had a practice thatdidn't work out as well as I
thought it had.
It was my first kind of setbackthat didn't work out as well as
I thought it had.
It was my first kind of setbackand I was like, maybe this is
it, maybe I've kind of takenthis as far as I can.
So I hired an investment bankand I went through the process
of evaluating and seeing whatwas out there and as I got
(04:18):
through that process, two thingshappened.
One it felt empty.
Seeing the dollar amount, I waslike the mission or the vision
is to have this be tribute to mydad, who wanted to create this
group that would take great careof people and be a place where
people love to go to work.
So putting the dollar amountthat I was looking at didn't
(04:39):
match the value that I thought Ihad created and it felt I don't
know if it was disappointing,but it was like that's not
enough for what I want myfather's legacy to be.
I mean, it's enough for me tolive on, but it didn't fill that
bucket.
And then the second part thathappened, which I think is even
(05:02):
more beautiful to me personallyis my wife is way smarter and
prettier than me.
She doesn't smell as good as Ido, paul, but you know that.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
That's like one of those things is, you know, like
you know, somebody smells good.
I knew your wife was made wayprettier than you.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah, I get that a lot and she is incredibly
operational, sound andunderstands people at a level
that I work towards.
She was in biotech for yearsand was climbing the corporate
ladder and she saw that I wasgoing through this process and
understanding what it meant, butalso knew that wasn't what I
(05:39):
wanted to do.
She actually left biotech andwas like I'm going to come help
you out.
She actually left biotech andwas like I'm going to come help
you out.
I'm going to be part of MFD totake some of those things that
are weighing you down and Ithink I might be able to be a
sounding board for me and createmore focus.
And since she started, we'veour EBITDAs.
(05:59):
We've added a I don't know 40%more to our EBITDA between 30
and 40% to our EBITDA, which isgreat.
But also it's incredible to seesomeone that you care so much
about, like your wife, be justso good at something Wow.
So I don't get into that levelof detail.
When people ask me why I don'tsell, I just say you know what?
(06:20):
I'm not there yet.
I feel like we have more togive.
But say you know what?
I'm not there yet.
I feel like we have more togive, but the story there's more
to unpack.
I started this.
It was never section.
I mean, when I first startedbuilding the group I had this
wild goal of if I could get to$10 million then that would be
(06:41):
beyond my wildest dreams andwhat a cool thing.
And I was 35 and we got there.
Just to clarify 10 million incollections.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah, in revenue yeah , not valuation.
No, not valuation.
10 millions in collection iswell past 10 million in
valuation, just in case anyone'swondering.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
That wasn't even something I was thinking about.
I was just like I'm a dentist.
When you sell, that meansyou're 60, 70 years old and you
just you go from that chair tolike a nursing home chair, and
that was just what I thoughtMight smell different.
(07:20):
Define what my goals are, andthat was a big, big challenge
for me and I think we're goingto talk about this later.
But redefining goals and makingthem clear and motivating
enough is really the pull thatyou need to get past some of the
challenges that happen in agroup of 150 plus people.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Yeah, well, you know, like I got some follow-up
questions for you because I mean, this is I know people
listening are like holy shit,like I totally feel for this,
because this is so relatable toso many people and everybody has
these goals.
We have goals that we want toreach.
I went through it with mypractice sale.
Now, with my practice sale, man, it's so much of it was fueled
(08:06):
by burnout and I and I think inretrospect, I think that's the
wrong reason to sell.
Yeah, I think my problem was Ifelt like my problem was the
practice.
I just needed to get it out ofmy life.
Yeah, and what I learned lateron was it wasn't the practice,
it was the way I was running thepractice that I needed help.
I needed to bring more leadersinto it, and that's what made
(08:27):
the practice really good for meand that's why I'm still there
now.
Now, you mentioned not knowingwhat you were going to do, had
you did sell.
Was the reason for staying thatyou just didn't have an
alternative, or was it more sothat you really liked it?
Speaker 2 (08:42):
That was part of the motivation, but I think it was
more, that it's not just that Ididn't have anything to do, it's
also that this is so wrapped upin my identity of I don't even
know who I am if it's not for mypractice, for my group and that
is what I'm trying to right nowwork through redefining of.
(09:05):
Like it's not that I care lessabout the success of our group,
I care as much as I ever have.
It's that how do I care asdeeply as I always have but also
be someone who is more thanjust a leader of a dental group?
And for so long those twoidentity, like the identity of
(09:27):
Steve and that were sointertwined you couldn't see one
without the other and I almostwas like there were times where
I would talk to my friends.
I'm like I think I'm frickingboring, like if I'm not talking
about the office, I don't evenknow if I know how to talk to my
friends and uh, and I'm likethat's not who I want to be,
like.
I want that to be a part of me,but I don't want that to be all
(09:47):
of me and that I think that is,for me, part of my intention.
Moving forward in this nextphase is how do I be just as
good a leader, care just as much, but also put that in its place
where this is an important partof my life it is not the only
part of my life and be just aseffective, if not more effective
(10:11):
, because I'm not being weigheddown by some of the
interpersonal crap or some ofthe things that aren't important
to the success of our practiceand our patients.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
When I'm thinking about, like when I sold and I
mentioned, like the burnout, andI think a lot of people want to
get to the sale because they'relike I don't have balance, I
don't see my family, I'm notdoing good with my spouse.
It's this goddamn practice.
I need it out of my life.
Now, when you were deciding allthis stuff, like getting the
investment bank and decidingbefore your wife came on board,
(10:45):
did you feel like you hadbalance at that point?
I mean, because that's what I'mwondering is, like when you're
looking at selling it, was therea motivating factor that you
were lacking balance in yourlife, or did you already have
that?
Speaker 2 (10:53):
I don't think I've me personally.
I don't think I've ever hadbalance, and that's not just for
work, it's for like, that'sjust part of my wiring.
That is unique to me is that ifthere's something that I care
about, I'm going all in,whatever that is Like.
Today, I chose to go all in onthis golf shirt and there was no
(11:14):
other thing I was going to wear.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Yeah, what was the balance like at that point when
you were seeking out a sale?
Do you feel like you werepossibly trying to seek balance
by looking for a sale?
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yeah, I think that was part of the search I was
going for and I also think, ifI'm being fully honest with
myself, I was.
I didn't know if I was goodenough to keep this thing
growing.
I was seeing some of my ownweaknesses show through in how
(11:44):
my organization was operatingand then to see someone like
Lynn, like my wife, do it what Isaw, it's so much better.
It was like, oh okay, maybethere needs to be someone who
has true business experience,has greater capital access, like
(12:04):
, maybe it's not, maybe it'sjust that I've reached my
ceiling and we talk about thatin every other position.
How do I level up, or can Ilevel up or do I have the will
to level up?
Because I'm seeing all of theseexamples of how my inabilities
(12:25):
at this point were the reasonwhy we were having so much
friction with continuing to addlocations or grow our leaders.
What I found was which wasanother challenge right now we
have five or six layers ofmanagement in our group and each
(12:46):
layer has to love their managerand if their manager loves
their manager, who loves theirmanager, who loves their manager
, who loves me, that personwho's sitting chair side or
answering the phones or doinginsurance verification is going
to love me.
If, at any point, there's abreakdown in that person really
(13:07):
trusting and loving theirmanager, the trust and love in
me is also gone.
There is the trust and love inme is also gone and that was
super hard for me to understandof how do I get that person to
see what my intention is, thatwe're so far away Like I maybe
have had.
Maybe I talked to this persontwo or three times a year and
(13:30):
it's very surface level.
How can I get them to care likeI did when it was small, when I
knew every single person andknew everything about them and
was super connected?
That was the challenge that Iwas working through of like, yes
, I want to grow, yes, I want tostay connected.
How do I do that and make surethat I'm the right?
Speaker 1 (13:52):
person to lead it.
You know I want to piggybackoff this, but then I do want to
circle back to something else.
But this trust and love, yourmanager thing.
Now what is your role in that?
I mean, I would imagine you'vegot to make sure to your direct
reports you are treating themwell, but how do you reach
further to make sure that theyare trusted and loved by their I
(14:14):
don't know?
I don't want to saysubordinates, but I know what
the proper, there's a properword that's probably better than
that.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
The people they serve yeah exactly.
That's a better way of saying it, it's a really hard way to
measure.
What I would encourage everyonewho has multiple layers of
management in their organization, whether it be dentistry or not
, is you can't only get oneperson's perspective.
So if you get all of yourinformation from just the person
(14:41):
who reports to you and they saysomeone who reports to them is
a jerk, you're not finding outenough.
So I'm not saying in everysituation, but you do need to
fact check, even relationships,so that you can see it for
yourself.
And if there are, what I lookfor at this point is it's okay
if there's one person thatdoesn't like their manager,
(15:04):
perfectly fine.
There are definitely peoplethat don't like me.
It's going to happen.
Everyone can't love everybody,but my job at this point is to
look for trends.
So if this person has an issue,and then this person has an
issue and then this person hasan issue it can't always be
everybody else.
Now let me go and find out.
Or if this person's new in aleadership position, we need to
(15:26):
go down to that their people,they are leading and say how is
this person doing?
What's your perspective on thissituation?
Get as much information as youcan, and it's not to get that
new leader or that person whoreports to me in trouble, it's
actually to benefit them and ifI go into any conversation that
I'm having truly to understandwhat that other perspective is
(15:49):
and it's to help and grow theperson who is being led as well
as the leader then I have enoughinformation at that point to
truly understand.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
So I'm thinking about , like you've got this large
organization.
I'm thinking about mostlisteners.
I mean, they don't have this,but they do have some level of
management in their practice.
A lot of people do have anoffice manager and I often hear
that people say I really like myoffice manager, they're doing a
really good job, they're mynumber one person, but I just
don't think they handle thingswell with the team.
And I think if that owner docwas to go and do one-on-ones
(16:24):
with everyone on their team,they might find out that there
are some things that theiroffice manager is not doing or
not doing well that they want toaddress.
But at the same time, thestruggle is how do they talk to
the office manager about thatwithout ratting out other people
who said things behind theirback?
Yeah, how do they take all thisnegative information and turn
it into a positive?
Because I think that's whatyou're saying is you got to go
(16:45):
around to people?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Yeah, that is a great question.
First, what I find in dentaloffices is the meetings or the
interpersonal stuff is the firstthing that the dentist or the
owner delegates and I'm puttingthat in quotes to their office
manager, without any training orunderstanding of what that
conversation or how that shouldgo.
So before even telling theoffice manager that they're
(17:10):
doing a bad job, you got to showthem what excellent is and if
you think that you're doing agreat job at that, bring them in
to show them how you would dothat.
When I'm going into havingthese difficult conversations,
initially they're going to bethere with me and I'm going to
lead it, and then they canmirror or mimic what I'm doing.
So that's step one is we needto train them and they need to
(17:31):
be able to see what is possiblewith these delicate and
difficult conversations.
They can't just be advocated.
And then the second part of itis how do we understand how
those conversations arehappening and how they're
happening in a way that the teammembers being heard, that they
feel good but also that they'rehonest?
(17:53):
And a couple of things withthat.
One is the results will speakfor themselves.
So most often when there is adifficult conversation,
especially from an officemanager to someone on their team
.
It's difficult because we'retrying to correct the behavior
People don't like in general,don't like to be told they're
(18:15):
not doing a great job.
So it may just be part of thedifficulty of what it is to be
an office manager is you need tobe the person to tell people
they're not doing a good job.
So that's number one.
Also, within thoseconversations, it's how do we
have that conversation in a kindway and how do we start it and
(18:37):
finish it in a way that theperson who's receiving that
information knows it's for theirbenefit.
And that is where is on,ultimately on me as the owner,
to ensure that that's happening.
And I think that if we starthaving those conversations with
I know it's important for you tobe really good at your job what
(18:58):
I'm seeing is this, this andthis that are not aligning with
what I know is so important toyou.
Can we talk that out togetherand then can we create a plan
together so that next time wetalk I know how to best support
you in making sure that you'redoing X, y and Z and not of what
(19:20):
happens a lot in thoseconversations.
And now we're talking aboutcommunication.
I don't know how we got here,but no, this is good.
What happens?
A lot in those conversations?
It's more of a I'm going totalk down to you and not bring
you into the conversation, and alot of the time it's because
we're not asking the rightquestions.
Almost every time, as theleader, we're not asking enough
(19:43):
or the right questions Curiosity, and we're just telling
something that isn't how wethink it should look.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
That's so true man.
That isn't how we think itshould look.
That's so true man.
And I think a lot of practiceowners, unfortunately, we avoid
the conversation altogether andI think it's great that you're
pointing that out, because thereis it's so obvious that the
people that are having a lot ofsuccess are the people that are
willing to have theseconversations.
Now I want to circle back tosomething you said earlier,
because people might listen tothis and they say, yeah, sure,
(20:14):
steve, you're a greatcommunicator.
Yeah, you talk to people reallywell.
You've got all these skills.
You're naturally gifted in allthese ways.
But I love that you mentionedyou reached a certain point
professionally where you feltlike your weaknesses us can
relate to that, and we reach itmaybe at different levels and in
different areas of our life.
(20:35):
But I mean, I think when I soldmy practice, it was amplifying
a weakness, it was negativity inmy life coming from the
practice because of my lack ofneeding to level up my
leadership to create otherleaders.
That was what I look back on it.
You realize some of yourweaknesses.
I wonder if you could talkabout those and just share, like
what you did with that to getto the next level.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah, I don't know if we've talked about this on one
of our episodes, but I have abusiness coach.
I've had a business coach for along time and I've already
shared this you can tell me toshut up and we recently, in the
past six months, brought on aCOO and my coach his name's Bob.
Bob, was saying how's it going?
How's it going with with uh,her name's Vanessa, how's it
(21:17):
going with Vanessa?
I was like it's going great.
We're I think we're reallyVanessa is is the COO in my
organization and I think it'sgoing great.
I really feel like I'm gettingsome trust.
I was with her this morning andI was just venting about one of
the doctors and he just stoppedbeing in my tracks.
He goes what do you mean?
You were venting?
I was like, well, I was just.
You know she was doingsomething stupid.
(21:39):
The doctor was doing somethingstupid and I was just venting to
Vanessa and he, bob's never hadan opinion ever.
He's the type of coach thatwill like, ask me questions and
wants me to figure it out formyself, and he goes don't you
ever effing do that again, likebecause of our relationship.
It stopped Like literally, Itook a blow.
(21:59):
I was like, whoa, what was that?
And he's like you, um, you wantto be the CEO of this company?
Right, that's who you are.
You're the CEO of this company.
I was like, well, I've beentrying to make a joke.
I'm like, yeah, that's what itsays on my LinkedIn.
And he's like, if you want tobe the leader of this
organization, you can never dothat again, because now this
(22:19):
person has a.
That's what they're going tosee when they go and talk to
that doctor.
And I was so taken back becauseit just took and opened my
blind spot like nothing that'sever happened to me before,
opened my blind spot likenothing that's ever happened to
me before, and it was right.
In that moment I was like, whoa, that part of me is what I
thought got me to this point.
(22:39):
It was Steve's genuine.
If someone wants to know how I'mfeeling, I'm going to tell them
.
And now, how do I have to becalculated?
I have to think before I talk,like that's not who I am.
No-transcript, I can't be thatperson.
(23:00):
So how do I navigate this?
So I think there's situationslike that where you sit back and
you're like, okay, is it moreimportant for me to grow, or is
it more important for me to bethe person that I think people
want to love.
What does the organization needfrom me?
And this is what I'm sitting inCurrently.
(23:21):
I think I'm doing a much betterjob.
There are still days where I'mlike I really need to.
I need to.
I feel myself stopping andthinking before I'm talking,
which is so different for me.
But that's what theorganization needs.
And if I'm going to level upand if I level up, that means
the organization can too then weall grow and we all benefit.
(23:43):
So I need to be able to pushmyself but also be willing to
have conversations like this anduncover some of this crap.
That doesn't feel good and whatI learned from those
conversations as someone who,just because I thought I was a
good leader then, doesn't meanthere isn't so much more for me
to learn and grow.
And I think, to get back tolike why I didn't sell it was
(24:06):
conversations like that of like,oh whoa, I'm not at the
pinnacle, I don't knoweverything, I'm just scratching
the surface.
The more I know, the more Irealize I don't know, and that
actually can create someexcitement for me of like, all
right, what's the next level ofthis look like.
How do I have the same mission,which is create the legacy that
(24:33):
my dad wasn't able to create,this amazing experience for
patients and my team members?
But the mission is the same,but now the vision may be
slightly different.
But the mission's the same, butnow the vision may be slightly
different.
And how do I go through thatvision creation process again
with an organization that'scontinuing to move at a really
rapid rate?
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Well, you're taking something that some people might
say you know you've reachedmaintenance standpoint and the
way I relate to this is like, oh, we're growing, we're growing,
we're growing.
We expanded from five to 11.
Growing in revenue, we maxed itout.
Guess what?
We're maxed out Nowhere else togo.
But that's only looking from afinancial perspective.
You're taking you know you'resaying my leadership, my
personal stuff, and you are.
(25:12):
You're bringing a new challengeinto your life, which I really
love.
Now, like that's more, speakingon the internal weaknesses, and
was there any situations, likeyou mentioned, that your
weaknesses were amplified, thatyou brought on different people
where maybe they didn't havethat weakness, where you brought
on somebody to support aweakness of yours?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, I mean that was part of the story of bringing
on a COO.
It was, like most, I considermyself an entrepreneur but
that's like such a trendy andcool thing to say, but I chase
shiny things.
I'm not super organized and Iknow.
I know that about myself, but Iknow that if you have 150 plus
(25:55):
people, organization and focusare the two most important
things.
So, bringing on someone, havingLynn here part of this
organization, having Vanessahaving structure and
organization and continued focusLynn is your wife, lynn's my
wife.
Yeah, and that continued focusis the external pieces that will
(26:16):
allow us to get to that nextlevel.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Now, as far as you talking, you mentioned
redefining your goals.
When you're looking at theinvestment base you're looking
to sell, what you found is thatyou weren't ready for that, for
multiple reasons, but one youmentioned redefining your goals.
Can you elaborate on that alittle bit?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Sure, I think when it's new, when it was new and
exciting, it was for me.
Me it was so easy and I talkedto this about with my doctors.
A lot of like nobody's bornwith a passion for dentistry,
like that's it'd be weird, itwould be weird, but I don't
think anyone has a passion foranything.
(26:57):
They're not born like that.
I truly believe that people,they do something're good at it,
they do more of it, and themore they do of it, the more
they see how it impacts othersand then they become passionate
about it.
That's the same thing with whenyou're truly setting these
giant goals.
It needs to be something thatis pulling you, that you have to
(27:19):
do, and that's, I think, for mein this.
I don't know the Simon Sinekbook like infinite game, like
that's how I kind of think about.
How do we set goals that pullus but also know the real goal
is like we just got to keep thisthing going and there's no way
to truly measure it.
So that's the balance of likeall right, we do need finite
(27:41):
goals, we do need things thathelp pull us and they need to be
able to be measured, but alsowe have this pie in the sky
thing of taking amazing care ofpeople that you can't truly
measure.
And if it's, you have a 16%EBITDA or 19% EBITDA.
Who gives a shit?
And I think that that comeswith experience too.
(28:03):
So that is the process that I'mgoing through now.
I don't know the answer.
I still have so many morequestions of what is going to be
that thing that is excitingenough, motivating enough and
that I am passionate about that.
I'm excited to wake up at fivein the morning to go do and I
(28:24):
don't want to be doing anythingelse.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Yeah, I think I can relate in the sense that I can
tell the listeners, when I soldmy practice, when I joined a DSO
, that passion for growth waspretty much gone and it's
unfortunate.
But it's most like my mainfocus at the office now is just
to make it a great place forpeople.
I don't care as much about thegrowth in the numbers because
(28:47):
I'm not getting any directbenefit of it.
But what I would say is thatbefore I sold my practice, until
about maybe two years ago,there was part of me that wanted
to stop this podcast.
And what was I doing?
I was reaching out to people, wewere interviewing them, we were
coming up with some solo topicsand stuff like that.
But then what I did is I hireda coach and then I saw wow,
(29:08):
there's a better way to create ahook.
There's a better way.
I still have a coach I meetwith weekly that we go through
questions.
I think you should ask thisquestion this way, there's a
better way to create a story arcand when realizing there's so
much art and so much more for meto learn about, just
broadcasting in general hasignited that passion for
podcasting.
Yeah, that I remember back inhaving it for the dental office.
(29:30):
Now you mentioned having acoach in your organization for
your level of running sixpractices and most people would
say, dude, you're there.
What more could you possibly dobut speak on how coaches have
affected your growth throughyour life and how they keep you
passionate?
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Yeah, that's a great question, and I have had
different coaches, and sometimesthey're even coaches without
even knowing.
I would consider you, paul,someone who's coached me from
afar.
Thanks, before you even stalkedme to be part of this thing.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Yeah, I stalked you a really long time.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
I know about your food preferences, I know what
you do in the middle of thenight, but for me, I knew that
it was always a challenge for meto do the things I said I was
going to do, and what a coachhas allowed me to do is throw
out all the things out loud,sift through some maybe good
ideas or not so good ideas, andthen someone to report back to.
(30:30):
And because practice ownershipis or any business leader is so
lonely, it's so important tohave someone to hold you
accountable to the things thatyou're going to do.
It's the reason why everyFortune 100 company has a board
of directors.
It's not because they don'tthink the CEO is good, but they
(30:50):
need someone to tell the CEOexactly to make sure he's doing
what is in the best interest ofwhat he said he was going to do.
And I use that as my personalboard of directors.
I think a coach is just likethat for me.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
Yeah, and I would like to tell listeners I mean,
steve does coaching with DentalPractice Heroes.
I'm on the podcast much moreand sometimes people want to
work with me but Steve issomebody who is well past where
I have ever gotten to as far asmanagement perspective and I
think you heard it on thisepisode.
You got to hear the ways thathe's worked through coaches and
how he could work with you tolevel up and make dentistry
(31:24):
hopefully interesting again.
Totally agree about the passionthing man.
Nobody's like man.
What are you really passionateabout?
I love teeth Just the waythey're so shiny and little.
You know.
Like no one's going to be like.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Oh man, I just it is amazing, Like when you go back.
I think I even said in mydental school interview that I
was passionate about dentistry.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Oh man, I think we all did, you have no freaking
clue.
I wonder how they read those ifthey just go.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
They probably should.
I would love to go back and belike all right, I want to
actually interview, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Now that I know it's like when they give.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
This is so dental, school-y, but like they give
biomaterials in your first sixweeks there.
You have no clue what any ofthese things are.
It's so back.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
It really is.
It's beautiful.
So I I got accepted dentalschool and then I declined it to
be part of a band for a year.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
And we just did that.
Oh, I knew that, I did knowthat.
I didn't know you already gotinto dental school at that point
.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
No, I was already in.
I was already, I alreadyaccepted.
I had to go and like, justremove it and they said I would
have to apply the next year.
Now, the next year, I decidedto apply and I like almost
self-sabotage myself.
I wanted a reason to stay inthis band and I did an actual
interview and I remember theymust've thought I was such an
arrogant, fricking prick.
But they were asking me aquestion about cheating and I'm
like I don't care, I don't careabout cheating, I'm not cheating
(32:41):
, but it's not my problem.
If I see somebody cheating, whyshould it be?
Well, the academic code.
I'm like not my problem.
I'm not ruining somebody's life, I'm going to stay in my own
lane.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
And now look at you.
You got in flying colors.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Yeah, I think partially.
I didn't want to get in, Iwanted to stay in.
Oh, dude.
Well, it's funny because wewere sitting, me and my buddy
Jake.
We're sitting at the bar and itwas me and him and we would
drink probably three, fournights a week and he was a
teacher in Champaign County.
You know, he stayed where.
We went to college and got ateaching job and I was like dude
, I think I'm gonna go to dentalschool.
I think making $15 an hour atRadio Shack's just not going.
What do you mean?
(33:18):
He's like dude.
We used to have like 35, 40friends here.
It's me and you.
I'm no longer a student, I'mnot a grad student, I'm a
fucking townie.
I'm like a townie at a collegetown that's going to college
bars and hanging out withcollege kids Not what I want to
be.
So it's dental school.
And now look at you, yeah right.
(33:43):
So, dude man, I love thisinterview, dude.
I don't know if we're gonnabreak this up into two or not,
but I think this is just sorelatable for so many people,
and I think this is stuff thatreally would have some listeners
thinking about their why andthe feelings that they're having
as a practice owner and notlooking to the exit as the
solution.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
I guess that's a good question for you.
I'm sure Is it what you thoughtit was going to be?
Speaker 1 (34:06):
No, not at all.
When you sold Zero, absolutelynot, absolutely not.
And I listen to you now talkand I say I want what Steve has,
I want this, I want to runpractices without doing
dentistry and that's what I'mmigrating myself to.
I'm going to be non-clinicalwithin a year now, but I've
realized through that the salewasn't what I thought it was
(34:29):
going to be.
And if you have something elseto do, maybe, but I have the
podcast, I have the coaching,but I still love being in
dentistry.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
I do too.
I think people and I was again.
This is again anotherconversation that I was just
having with one of my doctors,and it's again sounds corny, but
like, the more that I go aroundthe sun and the more experience
that I have, the goal isactually the journey, not this
destination, and I know thatsounds corny, but I could not
believe it more than I do now.
(34:56):
If you get to enjoy what you'redoing and feel like you're
adding, creating value andimpact in the world, then you
win.
You win.
And whether you have a dollarin the bank or a hundred million
dollars in the bank, I was justas fricking happy when I had a
dollar in the bank and I didn'teven know.
So we create these fictitiousgoals that maybe don't even
(35:19):
really fill the bucket the waythat we want them to, and I'm
happy to expand on that.
If anyone has any questions,they can.
Clearly, I don't have a filter,which is probably what this
whole thing is about, and Iovershared all of my crap.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
It is so true, man.
Well, hey, if you're thinkingabout hiring a coach for your
practice or leveling up yourpractice so you can live a
better life, be more engaged andreap more rewards that comes
from dental practice ownership,Check out our website,
dentalpracticeheroescom.
You can work with Steve.
He'll set up a free strategycall with you.
So thanks so much, Steve.
This was really absolutelyfantastic.
Man Appreciate it.
Love you both.
(35:54):
Thank you.
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