May 22, 2025 • 43 mins
This interview was originally aired on the State of Ed Podcast by Dr. Nick Isseks and Dr. Nick Simone. It is being re-aired here with their permission.
You can access the original episode here:
https://episodes.fm/992700178/episode/NDIwOWY1OTAtMGQxZC00NGI1LWIwMjktY2U5NmQ1Yjc4MjIw
and access all State of Ed Podcast episodes here:
0:00:00 INTRO
0:02:53 State of Ed Podcast
0:04:21 Jake's Journey
0:05:57 What is Personalized Learning?
0:10:33 Rogers' Law of Diffusion of Innovation
0:13:12 What is Educational Duct Tape?
0:16:04 More Than Words by John Warner
0:18:58 The Issue with Points-Based Grading
0:20:03 Mastery vs. Performance-Oriented Goals
0:22:29 The AI Infinite Loop
0:27:11 Self-Determination Theory
0:32:32 Helping Teachers Pick the Technology to Use
0:35:15 The Value of Instructional Coaching
0:39:38 The Future of Wearable Technology
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jake (00:00):
What is personalized learning and how is it different from differentiation?
(00:04):
How do we help educators grow?
How do goals, assessment, and the typesof motivation impact students' use of ai?
We'll answer all of this today.
Let's get to it.
Welcome, welcome in folks.
(00:25):
Welcome into today's episode ofThe Educational Duct Tape Podcast.
Uh, I think that you are all goingto relate to what I'm gonna say
right now, but it is, late May.
I had hoped to have a brand newpodcast episode for you today.
Uh, but.
I was unable to pull that off becauseit is May and it is crazy right now.
So many band concerts and choirconcerts and baseball games and soccer
(00:48):
games and awards assemblies and workthings and crazy stuff going on at
work and lawn projects and all, allof the things happening right now.
So I don't have a brand newepisode for you, but I do have
something really, really awesomethat I'm excited to share with you.
So about a month ago, I had the goodfortune of appearing on an episode of
the State of Ed podcast with two awesomegentlemen, Dr. Nick Simone and Dr.
(01:14):
Marc Isseks I was on episode, I thinkit was 73 of the State of Ed podcast.
They have 72 even better episodesprior to the one that I was on
featuring the likes of Rick Wormeli,Laura Williams, Jen Womble from FETC,
a whole bunch of just reallyamazing folks have been on the show.
I really recommend checking out the show.
And to give you a sneak preview, uh,we're gonna listen to my appearance
(01:38):
on the State of Ed podcast.
So I had had so much fun talkingto Marc and Nick and I said to the
guys, I said, since this was such anawesome conversation, I really enjoyed
talking to them After the episodehad been released on their platform,
would it be okay if I released itin the educational duct tape feed?
And they were generous enoughto say, yes, please do so.
So I am airing this here in the shownotes is a link to the show so you
(02:02):
can hop over there and find the restof their amazing episodes, I think
you're gonna find they're reallyawesome and intelligent guys, and
it's really great talking to them.
And I think you're gonna findthat you wanna hear their input
on other topics as well too.
Speaking of which Marc recently releaseda new book called Captivate: engaging and
Empowering Students in a World of DigitalDistractions which is right up my alley.
(02:24):
That idea of empowering them andthinking about the way we do things now
in this era of digital distractions.
I have a copy of the book.
I have not started reading ityet, is definitely is on my summer
reading list, and I'll be sharingwith you what I think of it.
But having spoken with Marc, I'm feelingpretty confident this is gonna be a really
good book, so I'm eager to check that out.
And like I said, I'll share aboutthat book with you after I read it.
(02:44):
But without further ado, let's jumpinto my appearance on the State
of Ed podcast with the awesomeMarc Isseks and Nick Simone.
Here we go.
Marc (03:13):
Welcome to State of Ed, a podcast about education
inside the classroom and out.
My name is Marc Isseks.
Nick (03:18):
And I'm Nick Simone.
Marc (03:19):
How are you today, Nick?
Nick (03:20):
Looking forward to our conversation very much.
How are you doing?
Marc (03:23):
I'm doing great, having a great day, and also looking
forward to our conversation.
Our guest today is Jake Miller.
He's an ed tech and learning enthusiastwho wrote Educational Duct Tape.
An EdTech integration mindset andhosts the EdTech News Brief and
Educational Duct Tape Podcast.
Jake's Day job is personalizedlearning specialist.
(03:44):
He previously spent five years asa technology integration specialist
and an additional 14 years.
In the classroom teaching math, science,and STEM at various grade levels with all
the changes currently going on in schools.
What better time to have an edtech specialist on the show?
Jake Miller, welcometo State of Ed podcast.
Jake (04:02):
Hi Marc.
Hi Nick.
Thanks for having me on.
I'm excited.
We are super happy to have you andcan't wait to pick your brain because
there are many, many topics thatwe would love to discuss with you.
Since technology is just.
Just when you think that technology can'tbe more at forefront of the educational
landscape, it, it becomes that allimportant topic to be talking about.
So let's just start by talkingabout your own journey here.
(04:25):
How did you get to this place whereyou're, you know, a technological
uh, specialist and a tech specialistand a personalized learning guru?
Can you.
Take us through that.
Yeah, sure.
So this is year 22 in education.
I think I've stopped counting'cause it just makes me feel old.
Uh, but I think it's 22.
I started off teaching middleschool math and science.
Uh, at first thought I wanted to doit for all of my 35 years career until
(04:46):
retirement or 42 like my mom did.
Wow.
Um, and then, um, found that I gotinterested in other things as I was going.
So first I got interested inteaching stem and then I got really
interested in educational technology.
First it was using it.
Just for myself in theclassroom for how I taught.
And then it was having the kids use it.
That was the stem part really.
Then I found that I really wantedto help other teachers use it
(05:07):
'cause they were so overwhelmedand scared of it maybe at the time.
Uh, and then I found that Ireally enjoyed that and I really
wanted to support them more.
So then I shifted into a technologyintegration specialist or tech coach role,
and then I found that I, I wanted to helpmore than just the teachers in my school.
So I started presenting atlocal conferences and I was
like, well, that's not enough.
I wanna do more.
And then it was Twitter and thenit was a website, and then it was
local conferences and then it was.
(05:28):
Podcast and then it was all the things.
And so, and then it was a book and itwas all these things over the years,
but really it's just in the interest ofhelping teachers do good things for kids.
And the last three years I've beenfortunate to fall into this role as
a personalized learning specialist,which when I started it, I was like,
what is, what is personalized learning?
I kind of have an idea, like I mayhave been bluffing a little bit in the
interview, but then once I got in I waslike, yes, this is, this is the thing
(05:50):
and this is what I'm so excited about.
So I've been doing thatfor three years now.
So it's been a journey,but I like that it's.
You know, a lot of differentstops on this journey.
Marc (05:57):
What did you find is the actual definition for the
personalized learning specialist?
Jake (06:02):
You know, I, so the easiest way to summarize what personalized learning
to me is it's a step beyond what istypically known as differentiation.
So typically you'll see differentdefinitions, like we were just
talking, you guys had RickWormeli on the podcast before.
Rick would define differentiatedlearning pretty close to how I'd
define personalized learning.
So would probably Carol AnnTomlinson or somebody like.
That.
But the way most people think ofdifferentiated learning or instruction
(06:24):
is you're honoring the differencesin variability in your learners.
You're honoring their levels, you'rehonoring their preferences and how
they learn and maybe the their therethings that they're find relevant
and enjoyable and you're presentingdifferent opportunities to them.
Oftentimes, you're prescribingthem to certain learners
and personalized learning.
We're taking it a step further andgiving those learners some agency
to make those choices themselves.
So the teacher is maybe saying, Hey,based on what I know about my kids,
(06:46):
these are the three different levels ofthis assignment that I'm gonna offer.
These are the three different.
Topics I'm gonna offer, or threedifferent modes that you could do it in.
And then letting the kids go like,this is the one that's right for me.
Instead of the teachers puttingin the work of saying like, Marc,
you'd prefer it this way, and Nick,you're currently accelerated on
this topic, so let's do it this way.
Giving the kids some control over thatexperience and letting them advocate
(07:07):
for themselves and be autonomousand build that agency that's gonna
benefit them after graduation for sure.
Nick (07:13):
So are you actually working with a school district directly right now?
Jake (07:16):
So, here in Ohio we have educational service center, so I work Okay.
Uh, for two differenteducational service centers.
Most of my work is with, uh, fivedifferent school districts, but
every now and then I, I collaboratewith some other ones, which I love.
Like this, this week we're currentlyrecording and it's a Wednesday
night, not, not to spoil it for the,the people listening that we we're
not live in their ears right now.
Uh, but this week I've, I'vealready been with three different
school districts in three differentdays, and I love, that's great.
(07:38):
I love bouncing around, workingwith different schools, but.
Yet being with them often enoughthat I know those teachers, you know,
'cause you have those experienceswhere a great presenter maybe comes
in, not, not that I'm comparing myselfto a great presenter, but a great
presenter comes in, present for oneday and then you never see 'em again.
Right, right.
I do.
I have the, the nice benefit of,I'll see you in a couple weeks,
or I might see you on Thursday, orlike, I'm gonna be back again soon.
(07:59):
And so I have these longitudinalrelationships with these educators
where I keep supporting them, butthen I get to go and work with other
educators too, which is really cool.
That's
Nick (08:06):
great.
Does the whole state have thatstructure where there are,
what did you call the place?
Educational
Jake (08:11):
educational service centers.
Yep.
Okay.
So there are, every school in Ohio hasto, uh, belong to one, and we, we provide,
service centers provide a lot of differentfeatures to the schools, but one of
them are, uh, curriculum consultants.
Different service centershave different ones.
I, I'm one of the few that do personalizedlearning in the state, but most of them
have like a gifted consultant and anEnglish consultant and things like that.
Nick (08:31):
That's a great idea.
So if teachers wanted to workwith you, how do they organize?
Do they have to go through theirschool to set up a meeting or?
Jake (08:39):
It's almost like a, a consultant in an educational service center.
Right.
It's almost like a job sharewith the different districts.
So the, so the districtsare paying for my times.
Well, you know, your district mighthave 20 days of Jake's time and then,
then the teacher could, could use oneof those 20 days or an hour out of
those 20 days or something like that.
But sometimes we have the opportunityto do some a la carte things and some
workshops and some trainings and thingslike that too, which I, I love that just.
(09:02):
Variability at differentthings all the time.
Marc (09:04):
What, what do you love most about working with educators in this way?
Jake (09:06):
I love the, the relationship building of the experience.
I think I, I come froma family of educators.
I mentioned my mom and my, my auntwas an educator as well, and so I've
always had a, a profound respect forwhat they do and the work they put in.
And then as I started workingalongside them, supporting them
with technology back in, you know.
2006, let's say, when GoogleDrive was coming out and they
(09:27):
were like, wait, what's a cloud?
What is it, cumulonimbus or what?
And, and seeing them in that time,but seeing like the vulnerability they
were ready to admit about, like notunderstanding things, but also the
compassion they had for their kids.
They just want to do the best, you know?
And so it was like, I just, I wantedmore of that, you know, I've always
just really enjoyed working withteachers ever since I first experienced
(09:47):
providing them with support like that.
So it's the opportunity to dothat, and it's the opportunity
to build those relationships,to support them in that way.
Marc (09:52):
So let me ask this question on behalf of the people who work
to support educators everywhere,the early adopters are easy.
Mm-hmm.
They're
the low hanging fruit, right?
You just whisper a great idea.
They're already like running out of theroom and taking it to the next, yeah.
The next iteration.
Before you even finish the sentence,how do you start moving further
and further along the continuum?
(10:15):
Getting towards, I'm not talkingabout the laggers, like the, the, you
know, over my dead body folks, whichhopefully is just a very small number,
but like how do you get towards themiddle where you get the masses thinking
differently and starting to reallymake those kinds of cultural shifts?
Mm-hmm.
Where change really startsto take hold in a school.
Jake (10:33):
Yeah.
I, I, I dunno if you're familiar withRogers Law of Diffusion of innovation, I,
I think I'm gonna edit some words there.
Rogers Law of Diffusion ofInnovation, but it's a bell curve.
And on the left we have those innovators,those early adopters, and then the chasm.
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
And then there is that chasm, and thenas you move towards the center, you've
got that early majority and the latemajority, and then all the way over to
the right, you've got that, that group oflaggards, I think is what it says on it.
(10:55):
Mm-hmm.
Um, and.
My belief is I haven't read anyspecific documentation that says
is the case, but my belief isthat each group can only really be
impacted by the group next to them.
Right?
Yeah.
So if, if a early adopter.
Comes to a laggard and says, you'vegotta try out this AI tool, let's say,
because that's something that they'regonna be really, um, intimidated by.
(11:18):
They're not gonna listen to that person atall because they, they're just, they're,
they don't relate to them over that topic.
And so I believe, and, and again,I don't have any studies that back
up that, that's just my belief.
So I believe that you've got to let.
Let it trickle down fromone group to the next group.
Now, I believe it also goes the otherway too, that if a laggard has a
negative experience relating to this newinnovation or this new strategy or this
(11:42):
new tech tool, and they tell that nextnotch up, that late majority or whatever
they are, they could pull them downinto, into essentially being a laggard.
That's my belief.
And so you, you've really gottaimpact them kind of one at a time.
And so my goal always, if I, if I'mworking with the school district,
let's say, and I go to the dreadedstaff meeting and I'm presenting
to the whole staff and I know that.
I've got all five levels of thatbell curve in the room with me.
(12:04):
I know that there's nothing I coulddo to bring that laggard on board
right now, but there are things thatI could do to turn them off right now.
So my goal is always tokeep everybody positive.
Whether or not they want to adopt it rightnow is fine because sooner or later that
idea is gonna get to that laggard, and Idon't want them to feel negative about it.
And I don't want them to pullthe other people down with them.
(12:25):
So I, I, I would rather all 100% ofpeople in that group feel positively.
And maybe right now I'm just winning overthe 17% and knowing that seeing person
at the 17th percentile do this is gonnaimpact the person at the 18th percentile
and the person at the 19th percentile.
So I think that that positivity,and that comes with relationship
too, that comes with trust that theyhave in you when you're presenting
(12:47):
to them or working with them.
That's really smart.
Nick (12:49):
Yeah.
It's a brilliant approach and youhave the perfect demeanor for it,
but I also think that the model thatyou're working within allows you to
personalize the instruction with theteachers whenever you Yeah, that's, yeah.
I mean, if you put all these teachersin a room, and some of them don't
even know how to use Google Docs.
Mm-hmm.
And others are.
You know, maybe created Google Docs.
Mm-hmm.
(13:09):
It's difficult to send the same message.
So I love your model and I love
Marc (13:12):
your approach.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love the name Educational Duct tape.
So, uh, can you just kind of takeus through what that, what that
means to you and, and what thatsymbolizes or is a metaphor of.
Jake (13:23):
Yeah.
So year, years and years ago, more than adecade ago, I was, uh, a, a friend of mine
that lives in this, this area and teachesuniversity classes, uh, for pre-service
teachers, had reached out to me to talkto students about educational technology
and what I wanted to say to them.
'cause I saw all these student teacherscoming into our school just trying
out all, whatever the new bells andwhistles of technology were at that time.
(13:45):
But they were doing it kind of, um.
Without regard for why, likewhy are you using that tool?
Why are you using a cahoot right now?
I don't know.
The kids like it.
Are you trying to build theirDOK knowledge, one knowledge?
Are you trying to teach'em some vocabulary?
Are you trying to review something?
Like why are you doing that?
And they didn't really have a reason.
When I talked to that class, Ireally wanted to talk to em about
how we use educational technologyas tools to support us in achieving
(14:09):
pedagogical or teacher goals orsolving problems or meeting needs.
And so I gave him that presentation andthen afterwards I said to the teacher,
I said, you know, I think I want.
To continue to do this work and speakto people about this exact topic.
Uh, he said, what do you think?
And he said, yeah, that's great.
Uh, except the title that you gavefor the talk, which was something like
viewing educational technology toolsas things that can help us achieve
(14:30):
it was like a really long name.
Right?
He is like that, that title that yougave it, it needs to be sexier if
you're gonna keep doing this and.
So soon thereafter, my kids are now,uh, 15, 13, and 11, but they were
much, they were five, three and oneor something like that at this time.
We had an inflatablebounce house in our house.
Um, and my kids loved playingin this inflatable bounce house.
And one day I went to fill it upfor them and it sprung a leak.
(14:53):
It was pushing air out of it.
And we had thrown away the patch kit yearsago 'cause we didn't know what it was.
We were just laying on thefloor with our kids' toys.
So we had no patch kit.
And what I. Discovered was thatduct tape was a really good
patch for the bounce house.
And I started kind of thinking aboutthat idea about how duct tape by
itself, it's, it's just a thing, right?
But when it's solving aproblem for us, then it's super
(15:14):
powerful and super impactful.
And so that became my metaphor,that educational technology
is our educational duct tape.
It is our thing, it's our toolthat solves problems for us.
Sometimes.
It sounds like I'm saying thateducational technology is, is just
by default, non elegant, like.
Like Ed, like a duct tape is, but thatdoesn't mean that can't be elegant.
Right.
There's some really sophisticateded tech out there, but the important
(15:34):
part is it's just a tool that thattool that you're using and excited
about isn't, is worthless or nothingif you're not focusing on achieving
some specific pedagogical benefit.
Right, right,
Marc (15:45):
right,
Jake (15:47):
right.
Marc (15:47):
Right.
Nick (15:47):
Well, well stated.
Well stated.
Well, we might, we might as wellget to AI by now, right, Jake?
Yeah.
So where's your comfort leveland optimism regarding the
integration of AI in education?
Jake (15:59):
Yes.
Yes is my answer.
Because it, there's like, no,there's like, no, I don't even know.
I'm like all over the place.
I'm, I'm currently reading thisbook More Than Words by John Warner.
Have you guys heard of it?
I have not.
No, I just, I kept hearing about it.
I just stole the song
Marc (16:11):
from the eighties.
That's right.
It is
Jake (16:12):
not, it has nothing to do with the song.
Okay.
I sent it to a friend today.
I said, I'm reading this book,and she sent me a video of
extreme performing the song.
There it is, man.
And then I said, no, thisversion and I sent back.
There's a version of Jimmy Fallon andJack Black performing it, which is
spot on and it makes it hysterical.
But no, it has nothing,nothing to do with the song.
Um, I actually heard of it through,we mentioned Rick Wormeli earlier.
(16:33):
Uh, Wormeli wrote one of the, um.
Uh, I don't know, one of the quotes in thebook and put it out on his social media.
And that's the first place I heard it.
And then I heard it on a podcast, Ibelieve it was the search engine podcast.
Uh, and I heard it somewhere else too.
And I was like, I keep hearingabout this book and I keep
being really excited about it.
I think I need to read this.
And so I, I'm two or threechapters in right now.
(16:53):
Um, but it's talking about how,uh, the written language words
are more than words, right?
So something like chat, GPT orany large language model does
a great job of writing words.
And it does a great job of generatingwords that it thinks we're going
to like, but that's not what theprocess of writing is about, right?
Writing isn't just about writing words,it's, it's about more than the words.
(17:16):
And so I think when I think about ai, Iam excited about the possibilities of it.
I use it a lot, but Ithink we need to go back.
To that, that duct tape idea,and really think about what are
we trying to achieve here now?
What are we trying to get acrosswith what we're doing here?
I saw a guy named Dave StewartJr. Speak recently, and Dave
referenced this metaphor that he hadrecently heard from somebody else.
(17:36):
That was if, if I wanna get reallystrong and I go to the gym to lift
weights and I bring a forklift withme and I load the weights on the
forklift and have the forklift.
Take the weights up and down for me.
Is that okay?
And I, and Dave didn't say thisnext part, I was like waiting on the
edge of my seat for him to say it.
I think he was being a writer and lettingme think it instead of him saying it.
But the point is, the goal wasn'tto lift the weights, right?
(17:58):
The goal was to get stronger.
And so I think we have tokeep that in mind with ai.
What is the ai, what, what isour goal when we're using it?
You know, so if, if for example, we'reusing a tool like school ai and we want
our kids to do some self-assessmentand reflection, uh, about a certain
topic, and school AI is kind of like atutor, helping them do that, that's I
(18:19):
think a pretty great use of ai, right?
Because it's helping us achieve the goal.
But if a kid's going to Claude,let's say a large language model.
And saying, write this essay for me,then the kid's not getting stronger, like
in that weightlifting metaphor, right?
So we just have to bereally mindful about that.
I think that requires a couple things too.
One is, which is part of what this bookis talking about, uh, more than words, is
(18:40):
changing the way we think about writingin school to make it so it's actually
relevant and meaningful and importantand motivational for kids, right?
But it also means that we need to be.
Talking to our kids about this,talking 'em about how we use ai,
how we don't use AI, and, and ourreasoning behind it and why some uses
are okay and other users are not okay.
Marc (18:58):
Can I take that one step further or maybe add a third prong?
I think part of it also in thisreflection that you're talking about
is we have for so long structuredschool around the exchange for
like your compliance for points.
Jake (19:11):
Yes.
Marc (19:11):
Yeah.
So we have taught.
Students that this isthe all important thing.
You need your points to get your credits.
You need your credits to get your diploma.
You need your, your diploma tohave the life that you mm-hmm.
Are dreaming of having.
Mm-hmm.
So they're just playing bythe rules that we have created
Jake (19:25):
100%.
Marc (19:26):
So when we say write an essay, they're thinking, I need points.
The technology's giving them.
A shortcut to help them getthe points that they want.
That's how they're trying to win the game.
If we redirect the focus to, like,what's really important, it's about
learning, it's about getting stronger.
Just like you said.
It's about building up those skills.
So we have to really take, take astrong look at what we are doing and,
(19:49):
and the carrots and the sticks thatwe are bringing into the educational
model because we, I think rhetoricallyhave all the right messages, but are
we historically creating the right.
Frameworks to get the outcomesthat we're talking about.
Jake (20:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree 100% there.
There's some work that I got reallyexcited about through, so in, uh, my
personalized learning work as I was kindof, this is year three in it, and now
I feel like I know most of the stuff.
Right?
Not all of the stuff.
I'm still learning.
But early on I was just kind ofscratching the surface and learning
about all the different things.
And one part of personalizedlearning is student setting goals.
And I was like, what does that mean?
What's, what's a good goal?
(20:24):
What does that look like?
And so as I was learning about goalsetting, I learned about the two different
orientations that a goal could have.
One is, uh, a, uh, mastery goal.
And one is a, uh, performanceoriented, performance oriented
or mastery oriented goals.
Um, and a performance orientedgoal is exactly what you're saying.
The perform if all, if your goal is theA or the finished essay or lifting the
(20:46):
weights, the studies have shown thatyou are going to try to do those things.
By any means necessary.
Right?
That's right.
And we all, we all have a borderof what we will and won't do.
Mm-hmm.
But some people for, in thatsituation, if they could cheat,
they'll just cheat, right?
By any means necessary.
They want to achieve that goal.
And so what you're saying iswe need to get away from these
performance oriented goals.
(21:06):
Focus on mastery oriented goals, which issaying, I'm trying to build a skill here.
I'm trying to get better at something.
And the studies have also shown thatif you're doing that, then you're less
likely to do means of like cheating,for example, to get there because
cheating doesn't achieve that goal.
For example, for me, I'm 45 years old.
I'm getting to the age of life where Ineed to make, I need to take care of my
(21:27):
body and make sure I'm strong, right?
I'm not just trying to show up,looking good in a, in a bathing
suit at the lake this summer.
Like, I need to just takecare of myself as I get older.
And so.
When I work out, it doesn't makesense for me to use a forklift because
my goal is not lifting the weights.
Similarly, it doesn't make sense forme to use steroids because my goal
is not how I look with my shirt off.
(21:50):
My goal is to be strong and healthy,and steroids won't help with that.
Forklift won't help with that.
Lifting some weights and goingfor a run on the treadmill,
those things will help with that.
So my goal is mastery oriented,not performance oriented.
I think that's, that, that'sthe biggest problem with ai.
But it's a problem we've been dealing within education for decades, maybe a century.
Right?
It's, it's, it's all of theproblems we've had come out of that.
(22:11):
That's the way we've built education.
It's a system,
Marc (22:13):
but cheating has never been so easy.
Yeah.
Right.
That's part of it.
That's the challenge.
And one of the things that I am concernedabout is I, I, I try to, as Nick will
hopefully, hopefully say, I try to remainvery optimistic about education because I
believe it's the most important and mostvaluable gift that we can give our kids.
It's essential to everything.
But I, I fear what I'm calling like theAI infinite loop, which is the teacher
(22:35):
uses AI to generate the assignment.
The student uses AI to completethe assignment, and the teacher
uses AI to grade the assignment.
The loop is complete and not asingle human being has actually
contributed to the work.
Yeah.
And, and I feel like we're like on thecusp of that very, very thing happening.
And it, it's a major concern.
Yeah.
Because once we get on that hamsterwheel, I don't know how easy it's
(22:56):
gonna be to get off that hamster wheel.
Jake (22:58):
Yeah.
I, I think, I think it's super concerningtoo, and I think it is happening in
some places and in some classrooms.
And the issue with what you'resaying there is again, the student.
Has a performance oriented goal, whichis complete this task, and the teacher
has a performance oriented goal,which is have kids do the task, right?
Nobody in that situation has amastery oriented goal of the kid
mastering a skill and the teachersupporting them in mastering the skill.
(23:20):
I don't think that all AI use isbad, for example, I think agreed.
Teacher is using itfor some, some grading.
I actually don't think that's horrible.
Like I want them to do as much grading asthey possibly have time for within reason.
But if we can give kids more feedbackfaster, right, and take some time off
of teacher's plates so that they canwork with those kids, I'm okay with it.
The issue is that that's a masteryoriented goal of supporting
(23:42):
those kids and that that's thechange that needs to happen.
I think,
Nick (23:45):
yeah.
I mean, if the, if.
The grading, like you said, if thatallows teachers to have more time mm-hmm.
To meet with kids andpersonalized the feedback.
'cause I was giving a professionaldevelopment session two days ago and uh,
an exceptional teacher who I know, youknow, she said her concern is if the AI
is just grading the papers, how do youeven know how your students are improving?
(24:08):
You have to be able to read their work.
Yeah.
And see what their.
Submitting so that you can givethem that type of feedback.
So if you just read the feedback, Idon't know if that's gonna be enough.
Jake (24:17):
Yeah, I, I think there has to be some, some teacher grading and
then we, we might need to supplementit with some, some of this AI done.
But certainly if it's all AI done, we'recreating some major problems there.
Or if it's all AI done and theteacher doesn't even look at
the data, that's a problem.
And if the kid doesn't lookat the data, that's a problem.
Nick (24:31):
That's true also.
'cause they could just have it gradedand then send the grades to the grade
book and they haven't even takenany interest in the performance.
Jake (24:39):
I'm sure it's already happening.
Yeah.
Well, and I think that goes back tosome of the problems we're talking
about there, where the grade hasnothing, we're doing assessment
wrong, if that's what we're doing.
We're using assessment as a wayto calculate grades instead of a
way to inform instruction and growlearners who are mastering skills.
And so if all the teacher.
If all the kid sees it as is a way toget a grade and all the teacher sees
(25:02):
it as, is it a way to more quicklyenter the grade, essentially, then
we're looking at assessment wrongand the AI fits just fine there.
Why not?
Right.
Right.
And it shouldn't, but yeah.
Nick (25:13):
Well, and that's where my optimism lies with the hope that
AI's gonna push us to reallyrestructure how we approach education.
Jake (25:22):
Yeah.
I think the power's there.
Yeah,
Nick (25:24):
I mean, I'm concerned about the, the writing and the copy of the essays.
Like Marc said, it's just easiernow, but people have always cheated.
Mm-hmm.
Kids have never not had an era where theyweren't trying to take the easy way out.
But it's just, but it's as quickas hitting a button these days.
Jake (25:40):
Yep.
Wormeli calls it in arecent paper on, uh, a MLE.
Do I get it?
Like a bingo board of like,Wormeli mentions It's three
in three in one interview.
Are we
Marc (25:49):
playing the whole card or just the frame?
I don't know.
I don't know.
I dunno how it
Jake (25:51):
works.
I, I have three worms againstyour, I don't even know.
But he, uh, wrote a, a article, agreat article for A MLE recently,
and he calls it, um, academic Coplay.
Uh, so essentially like when we'redoing things in the classroom that's
wearing the costume of learning, butnot actually doing the learning, and
we don't wanna play academic cosplay.
(26:12):
I think that's a brilliant term.
He's so good at that.
Marc (26:14):
I'm, I'm envious of how he comes up with those things.
So obviously we'retalking about technology.
Clearly technology is a massivedistraction for our students,
and it's more and more dauntingfor teachers to have to overcome
distracted students and engage them.
So what are your, what are your wordsof wisdom when you are working with
educators to help them have the toolsand support them in trying to figure
(26:34):
out how to motivate students to blockout, maybe not all of that noise, but.
A lot of that noise so they cankind of get focused on the task in
hand and learn in their classrooms.
Jake (26:43):
Yeah.
I do think for a lot of our kids,some of that blocking out of the
distractions we might have to do for them.
So schools that have done, for example,my, my oldest son's school, every
classroom they walk into, there'sa caddy at the front of the room.
They put their phone in there, theyget it back after class, they could
check their messages in between class.
If they're taking pictures of somethingduring the lesson, they can go grab it.
Otherwise they can't use it.
I think we do likethey're addictive devices.
(27:05):
And so we have to, to an extent,step in for those kids and help
them out as they're building thoseskills of doing it themselves.
I think there's a little bit of that.
Um.
The other part just goes back to, to truemotivation and the ver the difference
between, first of all, between intrinsicmotivation and extrinsic motivation.
So if everything we're doing in school isan extrinsic motivator, if we're trying to
(27:26):
motivate them with grades and punishments,carrots and sticks, as you said before,
we're not gonna motivate them very well.
And then they're gonna be really apt tobe distracted by the technology, right?
Whereas if we could motivate themintrinsically, help them want to learn,
help them see this self-assess, andwant to grow and wanna get better
at things, develop a growth mindsetin our classroom, see learning as an
opportunity to take some risks and makesome mistakes, and then learn from them.
(27:49):
If we could shift to that.
Then we get more motivation'cause it's intrinsic.
And then we see them being lessapt to go to those distractions.
Now, whenever I talk with teachers,I have to tell them, I understand
that we're not in utopia.
That's, this is reality.
That's right.
These are children, these arereal children and real teenagers.
And I can't just say, we'll makethem intrinsically motivated and then
(28:09):
they'll put their phones away and theteachers are like, yeah, whatever.
Right?
Because I know that's not true.
One thing, do you guys know theself-determination theory continuum
that, uh, DC and I forget the other.
Author of it that breaks up thelevels of extrinsic motivation.
Are you familiar with that?
Marc (28:24):
Yes, vaguely.
But please
Jake (28:26):
refresh our memories.
So I, this is another thing thatas I was learning about the work
that I do, I, I was like, I needto, I need to understand this.
And the way I bring it back to all the,all the time is like, I don't know the
names of the different levels off the topof my head, but I bring it back to chores.
So my own kids, I have threeof 'em with chores, I have
to force them to do it right.
They don't fight back and theydo it, but I have to go like,
Hey, empty the dishwasher.
(28:47):
Hey, I told you 10 minutes ago, emptythe dishwasher, get up and go empty
the dishwasher, and then they'll do it.
Now, me with chores, Idon't like to do chores.
I'm not very motivated to do chores, but Iknow that if I don't clean that bathroom,
my wife's gonna clean that bathroomand I'm gonna feel guilty about it.
So I have kind of taken on her goal.
Right.
And I'm doing it for that reason.
So that's a step up interms of motivation.
(29:09):
It's still extrinsic, right?
I'm so motivated by her desire to do it.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
But she's not forcing me anymore.
The next notch up is her, right?
She doesn't want to cleanthe bathroom, right.
But she takes, she takes prideout of it being clean, and
she desires it being clean.
She wants it to be clean.
So even though she's not intrinsicallymotivated to clean it, she is more
motivated because she desires that.
(29:30):
And that's like a kid startingto desire the learning, right?
Mm-hmm.
So they wouldn't do it.
If there weren't a grade, you know?
Marc (29:37):
Yeah.
We we're just gonna leave thedoors of the school open and
if you just wanna come on in,
Jake (29:41):
you know.
Right.
That's not realistic.
That's true.
Intrinsic motivation's notrealistic in most places, but
if we can get them excited aboutthe learning, they might do it.
Now the next notch up is my neighbor.
This guy mows his lawn twicea week, normally like, like
we're about to be ready for lawnmowing, I think next week in Ohio.
I bet he mows it.
Twice next week.
And he'll, he mo he mows.
How fast does the
Marc (30:01):
grass grow in in Ohio?
Not very.
Jake (30:03):
Not very.
And he mos it both ways.
He creates the, the of the cut like,like a, like he's in a baseball
field league outfield, right?
For sure he does.
And one day I asked him, whatis with you in the lawn mowing?
And he said, that's my happy place, man.
I enjoy it.
I've got four kids and a wife.
I come home from work.
All of the sports, we'regoing to all of the places.
(30:24):
There's all the things to do.
There's the dinners to cook andthe things to talk about, and
I just plug in my headphones.
I go outside and I mow the lawn, right?
Because he's in, he's actuallyenjoying the learning.
So that's the next step up.
My wife doesn't enjoy.
Cleaning that bathroom.
She enjoys having it done.
My neighbor enjoys theprocess of mowing the lawn.
Hmm.
Now I will point out that I haven'tseen him mow his lawn in six weeks.
(30:46):
Um, six, six months.
I'm sorry.
Since before, since the weather changed.
Right.
He could be out there mowing inthe winter, but he's not right
because it's still a littlebit of extrinsic motivation.
He still needs the grass to grow.
To tell him to go mow.
He could potentially just mownothing if he enjoys it that much.
But that's still a littlebit extrinsic motivation.
So my question always is, how do weshift kids that direction, right?
(31:08):
Mm-hmm.
How do we make them value the goals?
How do we make them valuecompletion of the goals?
How do we make them value the learning?
How do we make them enjoy the process?
They still might not choose to do it, buthow do we shift them in that direction?
That's what I talk about.
That has nothing to dowith ed tech either.
But nowadays, everything wedo, we can do with ed tech.
But a kids, I remember when I firststarted teaching 22 years ago, just
(31:30):
using technology, made kids excited.
They wanna to do it because of technology.
Nowadays that's not the case.
So how do we shift them inthat direction to do that?
I don't know.
Where are you guys at on goals?
Or I'm sorry, on chores.
How are, how are youdoing your chores, Nick?
Are you a good chore doer?
Nick (31:44):
If, if it's on a list, yes, I will do it.
So, uh, that's not a problem at all.
But I love what you just saidabout, you know, the tech, like
you referenced Kahoot before.
Yeah.
Kahoot is nice.
Yeah.
But if you do Kahoot for every unit, yes.
At some point it becomes stale.
Jake (32:00):
Yeah, for sure.
Nick (32:01):
And you know, there was a time where even if you played like
a five minute video in class Yeah.
The kids would get so excited.
Oh my God, we're gonnawatch your video right now.
Wow.
Now video is take out my phonetime to tell me when it's over.
Jake (32:12):
Yeah, for sure.
So you gotta, you gotta embedquestions to keep 'em engaged.
Yeah.
When
Marc (32:16):
I used to wheel in the laser disc player, it was the roar
that would come over the crowd.
Nick (32:23):
Yeah.
So I think you're right.
You have to build up thatintrinsic motivation.
And of course you can use thetechnology to enhance that.
But it's not gonna do it all by itself.
Jake (32:32):
Yeah, certainly.
Marc (32:32):
Just to build off of Nick's point, some technology is really bells
and whistles and other forms of edtech is really more transformative.
So how do you direct people towardsthe transformative technology and maybe
a little bit away from the bells andwhistles technology and how like, and
how do you teach them how to discern thedifference between the two on their own?
Jake (32:52):
Yeah, I, I try to always start the conversation with
what they're trying to achieve.
Like, what's your goal?
What's your problem, what's your task?
Which takes us back to whateducational Duct Tape was as a name is.
You don't just choose to use duct tape.
Whereas that student teacher was justchoosing to use Kahoot, you choose to
do a formative assessment or you chooseto, I don't know, have kids share
with each other or you choose to, um,engage them in some, some exploration
(33:16):
of a topic or whatever it might be.
You have your pedagogical goaland then you'd identify the tool.
So I think if we alwaysstart with that step.
Then they're more likely to,to choose a technology that's
going to do those things.
And so whatever the goal is,if we start with a goal, then
we're more sure, more, sure.
More certain that we're not justdoing bells and whistles, you know?
Nick (33:37):
Yeah.
It's such great advice, but I think alot of teachers say, let me find the
tool and then figure out what my goal is.
But it really, like you said,should be the other way around.
Yeah, for sure.
What's
my goal?
What's my purpose in the lesson?
Right?
And then how can I achieve that best?
Maybe it's with this tool,maybe it's with another tool.
Maybe it doesn't require any technology.
Marc (33:55):
Yeah.
And I think also part of it is,here's how I used to teach it.
Hmm.
So now I have this new tool, so letme just integrate what I taught and
just dump it into this new thing.
Mm-hmm.
Whether it's Cahoot or whether it'sPowerPoint or whether, you know,
go along the continuum technologyover the last 20 years, but.
That's not necessarily making it moreengaging or, or making it more palpable
(34:15):
for kids or compelling, you know?
And that goes back to like the,you know, the SAMR model, right?
Mm-hmm.
We're just like substituting.
So instead of the overhead projector,I'll put it on the proximal.
Instead of the proximal, I'llput it on a flat screen TV
instead of the flat screen tv.
It'll be on a one-to-one tabletinstead of the one-to-one tablet.
Soon it'll be in themeta glasses, you know?
Yeah.
(34:36):
But it's still the same packet or thesame handout that was written in 2006.
Mm-hmm.
Or 1996.
Jake (34:43):
Yeah.
Right, and you, you've just made it.
You've just added bells andwhistles to it and made it fancier.
Now, if you had identified that inthe past time that you used it, there
were some difficulties, like youhad some Spanish speaking students
in class that couldn't accessthe the paper, then putting in a
technology tool that had translation,then you're solving a problem.
Of course, if you had identified thatyou have some kids that are reading at
(35:04):
a lower level, then using a technologytool is gonna let you translate it, but.
If you don't have any of thoseissues you're trying to resolve,
you really are just substituting
Marc (35:12):
that goes back to the intentionality that you've been talking about.
Yeah, for sure.
Nick (35:15):
So now can I like hire you for like an hour session so you can
gimme some personalized learning?
Yes, I'm ready.
Whenever you're ready.
Nick, help me in my teaching.
No, 'cause it's a great, you got me allinspired now just to even look at the way
I've been working with my own teachers.
Jake (35:27):
Well, to that point, that's why I think that, uh, instructional
coaching is, is really the next stepthat needs to happen in more schools.
We don't see a lot of instructionalcoaches doing true instructional coaching.
Um, I know myself in my pasttechnology role with the school, I
want it to be more of a coach role.
It never got to that point, and I know alot of my friends that work as technology.
Directors or specialists in schoolsdon't really get to do true coaching.
(35:51):
They're just going, Hey, did you see thenew thing that came out on Magic School?
And they're just throwing outthese exciting tools without
knowing what the problems are.
And that's not the coach's or the thecoach's fault, the tech person's fault.
They just don't have that opportunityto have that relationship.
What really needs to happen, Ithink, is talking to that teacher.
And saying, what are you working on?
Right?
So talking into Nick and sayinglike, what's that STR struggle
you're having in your classroom?
(36:11):
What could be better?
And if he says like, I just don't knowif my kids are understanding the lesson
while I'm teaching it, then I couldsuggest some formative assessment ideas.
I could say, well, let's tryPear Deck so you could hear from
every kid while you're doing it.
Or, let's try Nearpod.
And so I could put in place, Icould suggest those tech tools
that I know with my expertisebased on what you actually want.
Which thinking about how we talkedabout motivation earlier, you as a
(36:32):
teacher are gonna be more motivated.
To listen to me and implementit because it pertains back
to your own actual problem.
So it, it's that same thing thatwe talk about with our kids.
You're more likely to do that chorebecause you, val value the result.
Nick (36:44):
Yeah, it's critical.
Just Marc and I, early on, we interviewedsomeone from a school district near us,
and her job was to simply meet one-to-one
mm
with teachers.
I love it.
She had her Google calendar.
Teachers signed up half hourslot during their free period.
She went to the elementary school,the middle school, the high school.
That was her job, happens to beone of the wealthiest districts.
(37:07):
Yeah.
In our area.
Mm-hmm.
But that really is what needs to happenbecause that's when the best professional
development is going to take place.
Yeah, for sure.
Jake (37:14):
Because it's driven by that teacher, right?
They're talking and somebody'slistening and somebody's offering
expertise where they need, butreally it's driven by the teacher.
Uh, and that's what's so powerful.
Nick (37:23):
It's not just the early adapters that are looking for that help.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I really think there's an overwhelmingnumber of teachers that would
love that opportunity, but theywant it to be done conveniently.
Yeah.
They don't want it to be force fed,you know, after just a after school
meeting where everybody's going to.
Mm-hmm.
Or so.
I think it would be a great model.
If it can be, uh, replicated, but youguys are doing a great job in your state.
(37:44):
'cause that is a niceprogram that you're part of.
Marc (37:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jake (37:47):
That's great.
Marc (37:47):
Yeah.
As I was listening to your, your responsebefore, Jake, I, I, I was thinking about
this metaphor and, and I was born andraised in Brooklyn, so I know like the
least about farming maybe of anybody,anybody in America, but like I. I know
enough to know that it's not just aboutthrowing seeds on the ground, right?
They have to be, there has to be a system.
There has to be, you have to drill downand create the proper depth for the seeds.
(38:08):
You have to have the properorganization for the seeds.
You have to have the properwatering of the seeds and
all of these different steps.
And I think a lot of times withwhat you're saying is like,
okay, so here's technology.
We're gonna sprinkle seeds and they'llgrow because that's what, that's what.
Happens with seeds, but farming isa lot more complicated than that.
Yeah.
And a lot more scientific thanthat, and a lot more specific
and intentional than that.
(38:29):
And I think that's kind ofwhat you're talking about.
Yeah.
Whereas there's a lot of drive by help,which is not without its value, but
it's not nearly making the impact andhaving a level of effectiveness mm-hmm.
As what espousing here withyour, your kind of pedagogical
mindset and your duct tape.
Approach to things.
Yeah.
Jake (38:48):
Which is so smart and so needed.
Yeah, thanks.
And to think about that farmingidea, you know, some farms and some
soil and some ecosystems in someareas are good for growing corn
and others are not, for example.
And some farms and areas are gonnaneed more water and some are gonna
need less water and things like that.
And I think the same.
Is true of our teachers.
Some of them are going to love using atool like Magic School and others are not.
(39:11):
Right.
And it's not a good fit for them.
And to your point earlier, I thinkNick said it earlier about Kahoot, we
don't really want them all doing thesame thing anyhow because that's when
it gets boring if everybody's doing it.
So it's best for, that'swhy it's hard to have a, um.
A presenter come into a school andtalk about a certain technology tool.
'cause we really don't want every teacherin that school using it, number one.
And then number two, it's not actuallythe right tool for all of them.
(39:33):
'cause they don't have the problemor the lens or whatever that
that yields it or that needs it.
Yeah,
Marc (39:37):
that's
Jake (39:38):
right.
Marc (39:38):
I mean, you've, you've shared so many wonderful ideas and, and I
know that Nick and I could definitelytalk to you forever, but I want,
we do wanna respect your time.
I just wanna ask one more question beforewe, before we wrap up with, with wearable
technology being on the cusp of the nexthuge thing, which is like, it hard to
imagine that we're gonna first go througha next huge thing since we just got
completely like, you know, sideswipe with,with large language models, not even, you
(40:00):
know, two, two and a half years ago atthis point, to what extent is AR and VR.
Going to be like the next plateauor the next hill that we climb?
Or do you think we'regonna like miss that?
Like I What's your take on that?
Because of the, because ofthese glasses and, yeah.
And the integration.
Do you think that that's gonna make itsway into our classroom in a profound way?
(40:21):
Or do you think it's gonnabe like a passing fat?
Jake (40:23):
I think I'm just scared.
I dunno.
I'm not, I'm not, I'm,I'm, you're supposed to be
Marc (40:27):
the optimist here, Jade.
That's right.
You're killing
Jake (40:29):
us.
I'm, I'm, so you said, you were talkingearlier about the SAMR model and the
substitutions and you, and you talkedabout going from, from the video to the
tablet to the screen in front of theroom, and then you went to the wearable
meta glasses or whatever, and I just kindof like cringed a little bit because how
crazy will that be when we get there?
But I think the same problemswill be present when this happens.
(40:50):
It's surely gonna be a disruptor.
I dunno how big of a disruptor will be.
But the same problems will be there wherekids are distracted by those devices if
they don't care about the learning, right?
Kids are likely to usethose devices to cheat.
If they're motivated only by thegrade and by completing the work,
by the carrots, by the sticks.
So it's going to be the same sets ofproblems that we're dealing with AI
(41:12):
that we dealt with, with cell phones,that we dealt with, with Wikipedia,
with the internet, with Chromebooks.
Those same sets of problems aregoing to present themselves with
these wearable technologies.
The the additional problem, it'sgonna be really hard to tell
when kids are using them and not.
So we really have to buildour environments so that the
kids don't want to use them.
I think is the most important part.
Nick (41:31):
Is that a good enough answer for you, Marc?
Because I count, I, I
Jake (41:33):
love
Marc (41:33):
it.
I'll be replaying.
Replaying that one a few times.
Nice.
That's amazing.
Jake, thank you so much for sharingall of your insights and your wisdom
and your understanding of technologybecause it's such a critical, it's such
a critical viewpoint at this, at this.
Juncture in education.
Um, we really need more voices like yours.
Jake (41:50):
Oh, thank you guys.
I appreciate being on, I'm a hugefan of this show and I'm excited
to get to talk to you guys.
Nick (41:54):
Thank you very much, Jake.
I really thank you so much.
Yeah.
I really enjoyed speaking with youand uh, you definitely, like I said,
you got me inspired to do a fewdifferent things in the classroom.
I.
Jake (42:01):
Love it.
Thank you.
Marc (42:02):
So if you'd like to catch up on previous episodes of State
of Ed, you can find us on ApplePodcast, Spotify, Amazon, YouTube.
You could also find us on the web at stateof ed podcast.com, where you'll find links
to what we've discussed, including how toreach Jake on social media and on the web.
You can also follow me on Twitterat Marcus six or marcus six.com
on YouTube at edup pyro edu, PYRO.
(42:25):
And also check out Jake's bookand you can check out my book.
Captivate, engaging and empoweringstudents in a world of digital
distractions available on Amazon.
So, uh, and please besure to leave a comment.
I'd love to hear your thoughts aboutthe book, about the podcast, and
anything else education related.
Jake Miller, thank you so much forsharing your time with us this evening.
And I'm, uh, selfishly happy that yourson's, uh, baseball game was rained
(42:47):
out so you could keep our appointmenthere with us, uh, this evening.
It was such a treat to, to talk to you.
Jake (42:53):
Yeah, thanks guys.
What is personalized learning and how is it different from differentiation?
(00:04):
How do we help educators grow?
How do goals, assessment, and the typesof motivation impact students' use of ai?
We'll answer all of this today.
Let's get to it.
Welcome, welcome in folks.
(00:25):
Welcome into today's episode ofThe Educational Duct Tape Podcast.
Uh, I think that you are all goingto relate to what I'm gonna say
right now, but it is, late May.
I had hoped to have a brand newpodcast episode for you today.
Uh, but.
I was unable to pull that off becauseit is May and it is crazy right now.
So many band concerts and choirconcerts and baseball games and soccer
(00:48):
games and awards assemblies and workthings and crazy stuff going on at
work and lawn projects and all, allof the things happening right now.
So I don't have a brand newepisode for you, but I do have
something really, really awesomethat I'm excited to share with you.
So about a month ago, I had the goodfortune of appearing on an episode of
the State of Ed podcast with two awesomegentlemen, Dr. Nick Simone and Dr.
(01:14):
Marc Isseks I was on episode, I thinkit was 73 of the State of Ed podcast.
They have 72 even better episodesprior to the one that I was on
featuring the likes of Rick Wormeli,Laura Williams, Jen Womble from FETC,
a whole bunch of just reallyamazing folks have been on the show.
I really recommend checking out the show.
And to give you a sneak preview, uh,we're gonna listen to my appearance
(01:38):
on the State of Ed podcast.
So I had had so much fun talkingto Marc and Nick and I said to the
guys, I said, since this was such anawesome conversation, I really enjoyed
talking to them After the episodehad been released on their platform,
would it be okay if I released itin the educational duct tape feed?
And they were generous enoughto say, yes, please do so.
So I am airing this here in the shownotes is a link to the show so you
(02:02):
can hop over there and find the restof their amazing episodes, I think
you're gonna find they're reallyawesome and intelligent guys, and
it's really great talking to them.
And I think you're gonna findthat you wanna hear their input
on other topics as well too.
Speaking of which Marc recently releaseda new book called Captivate: engaging and
Empowering Students in a World of DigitalDistractions which is right up my alley.
(02:24):
That idea of empowering them andthinking about the way we do things now
in this era of digital distractions.
I have a copy of the book.
I have not started reading ityet, is definitely is on my summer
reading list, and I'll be sharingwith you what I think of it.
But having spoken with Marc, I'm feelingpretty confident this is gonna be a really
good book, so I'm eager to check that out.
And like I said, I'll share aboutthat book with you after I read it.
(02:44):
But without further ado, let's jumpinto my appearance on the State
of Ed podcast with the awesomeMarc Isseks and Nick Simone.
Here we go.
Marc (03:13):
Welcome to State of Ed, a podcast about education
inside the classroom and out.
My name is Marc Isseks.
Nick (03:18):
And I'm Nick Simone.
Marc (03:19):
How are you today, Nick?
Nick (03:20):
Looking forward to our conversation very much.
How are you doing?
Marc (03:23):
I'm doing great, having a great day, and also looking
forward to our conversation.
Our guest today is Jake Miller.
He's an ed tech and learning enthusiastwho wrote Educational Duct Tape.
An EdTech integration mindset andhosts the EdTech News Brief and
Educational Duct Tape Podcast.
Jake's Day job is personalizedlearning specialist.
(03:44):
He previously spent five years asa technology integration specialist
and an additional 14 years.
In the classroom teaching math, science,and STEM at various grade levels with all
the changes currently going on in schools.
What better time to have an edtech specialist on the show?
Jake Miller, welcometo State of Ed podcast.
Jake (04:02):
Hi Marc.
Hi Nick.
Thanks for having me on.
I'm excited.
We are super happy to have you andcan't wait to pick your brain because
there are many, many topics thatwe would love to discuss with you.
Since technology is just.
Just when you think that technology can'tbe more at forefront of the educational
landscape, it, it becomes that allimportant topic to be talking about.
So let's just start by talkingabout your own journey here.
(04:25):
How did you get to this place whereyou're, you know, a technological
uh, specialist and a tech specialistand a personalized learning guru?
Can you.
Take us through that.
Yeah, sure.
So this is year 22 in education.
I think I've stopped counting'cause it just makes me feel old.
Uh, but I think it's 22.
I started off teaching middleschool math and science.
Uh, at first thought I wanted to doit for all of my 35 years career until
(04:46):
retirement or 42 like my mom did.
Wow.
Um, and then, um, found that I gotinterested in other things as I was going.
So first I got interested inteaching stem and then I got really
interested in educational technology.
First it was using it.
Just for myself in theclassroom for how I taught.
And then it was having the kids use it.
That was the stem part really.
Then I found that I really wantedto help other teachers use it
(05:07):
'cause they were so overwhelmedand scared of it maybe at the time.
Uh, and then I found that Ireally enjoyed that and I really
wanted to support them more.
So then I shifted into a technologyintegration specialist or tech coach role,
and then I found that I, I wanted to helpmore than just the teachers in my school.
So I started presenting atlocal conferences and I was
like, well, that's not enough.
I wanna do more.
And then it was Twitter and thenit was a website, and then it was
local conferences and then it was.
(05:28):
Podcast and then it was all the things.
And so, and then it was a book and itwas all these things over the years,
but really it's just in the interest ofhelping teachers do good things for kids.
And the last three years I've beenfortunate to fall into this role as
a personalized learning specialist,which when I started it, I was like,
what is, what is personalized learning?
I kind of have an idea, like I mayhave been bluffing a little bit in the
interview, but then once I got in I waslike, yes, this is, this is the thing
(05:50):
and this is what I'm so excited about.
So I've been doing thatfor three years now.
So it's been a journey,but I like that it's.
You know, a lot of differentstops on this journey.
Marc (05:57):
What did you find is the actual definition for the
personalized learning specialist?
Jake (06:02):
You know, I, so the easiest way to summarize what personalized learning
to me is it's a step beyond what istypically known as differentiation.
So typically you'll see differentdefinitions, like we were just
talking, you guys had RickWormeli on the podcast before.
Rick would define differentiatedlearning pretty close to how I'd
define personalized learning.
So would probably Carol AnnTomlinson or somebody like.
That.
But the way most people think ofdifferentiated learning or instruction
(06:24):
is you're honoring the differencesin variability in your learners.
You're honoring their levels, you'rehonoring their preferences and how
they learn and maybe the their therethings that they're find relevant
and enjoyable and you're presentingdifferent opportunities to them.
Oftentimes, you're prescribingthem to certain learners
and personalized learning.
We're taking it a step further andgiving those learners some agency
to make those choices themselves.
So the teacher is maybe saying, Hey,based on what I know about my kids,
(06:46):
these are the three different levels ofthis assignment that I'm gonna offer.
These are the three different.
Topics I'm gonna offer, or threedifferent modes that you could do it in.
And then letting the kids go like,this is the one that's right for me.
Instead of the teachers puttingin the work of saying like, Marc,
you'd prefer it this way, and Nick,you're currently accelerated on
this topic, so let's do it this way.
Giving the kids some control over thatexperience and letting them advocate
(07:07):
for themselves and be autonomousand build that agency that's gonna
benefit them after graduation for sure.
Nick (07:13):
So are you actually working with a school district directly right now?
Jake (07:16):
So, here in Ohio we have educational service center, so I work Okay.
Uh, for two differenteducational service centers.
Most of my work is with, uh, fivedifferent school districts, but
every now and then I, I collaboratewith some other ones, which I love.
Like this, this week we're currentlyrecording and it's a Wednesday
night, not, not to spoil it for the,the people listening that we we're
not live in their ears right now.
Uh, but this week I've, I'vealready been with three different
school districts in three differentdays, and I love, that's great.
(07:38):
I love bouncing around, workingwith different schools, but.
Yet being with them often enoughthat I know those teachers, you know,
'cause you have those experienceswhere a great presenter maybe comes
in, not, not that I'm comparing myselfto a great presenter, but a great
presenter comes in, present for oneday and then you never see 'em again.
Right, right.
I do.
I have the, the nice benefit of,I'll see you in a couple weeks,
or I might see you on Thursday, orlike, I'm gonna be back again soon.
(07:59):
And so I have these longitudinalrelationships with these educators
where I keep supporting them, butthen I get to go and work with other
educators too, which is really cool.
That's
Nick (08:06):
great.
Does the whole state have thatstructure where there are,
what did you call the place?
Educational
Jake (08:11):
educational service centers.
Yep.
Okay.
So there are, every school in Ohio hasto, uh, belong to one, and we, we provide,
service centers provide a lot of differentfeatures to the schools, but one of
them are, uh, curriculum consultants.
Different service centershave different ones.
I, I'm one of the few that do personalizedlearning in the state, but most of them
have like a gifted consultant and anEnglish consultant and things like that.
Nick (08:31):
That's a great idea.
So if teachers wanted to workwith you, how do they organize?
Do they have to go through theirschool to set up a meeting or?
Jake (08:39):
It's almost like a, a consultant in an educational service center.
Right.
It's almost like a job sharewith the different districts.
So the, so the districtsare paying for my times.
Well, you know, your district mighthave 20 days of Jake's time and then,
then the teacher could, could use oneof those 20 days or an hour out of
those 20 days or something like that.
But sometimes we have the opportunityto do some a la carte things and some
workshops and some trainings and thingslike that too, which I, I love that just.
(09:02):
Variability at differentthings all the time.
Marc (09:04):
What, what do you love most about working with educators in this way?
Jake (09:06):
I love the, the relationship building of the experience.
I think I, I come froma family of educators.
I mentioned my mom and my, my auntwas an educator as well, and so I've
always had a, a profound respect forwhat they do and the work they put in.
And then as I started workingalongside them, supporting them
with technology back in, you know.
2006, let's say, when GoogleDrive was coming out and they
(09:27):
were like, wait, what's a cloud?
What is it, cumulonimbus or what?
And, and seeing them in that time,but seeing like the vulnerability they
were ready to admit about, like notunderstanding things, but also the
compassion they had for their kids.
They just want to do the best, you know?
And so it was like, I just, I wantedmore of that, you know, I've always
just really enjoyed working withteachers ever since I first experienced
(09:47):
providing them with support like that.
So it's the opportunity to dothat, and it's the opportunity
to build those relationships,to support them in that way.
Marc (09:52):
So let me ask this question on behalf of the people who work
to support educators everywhere,the early adopters are easy.
Mm-hmm.
They're
the low hanging fruit, right?
You just whisper a great idea.
They're already like running out of theroom and taking it to the next, yeah.
The next iteration.
Before you even finish the sentence,how do you start moving further
and further along the continuum?
(10:15):
Getting towards, I'm not talkingabout the laggers, like the, the, you
know, over my dead body folks, whichhopefully is just a very small number,
but like how do you get towards themiddle where you get the masses thinking
differently and starting to reallymake those kinds of cultural shifts?
Mm-hmm.
Where change really startsto take hold in a school.
Jake (10:33):
Yeah.
I, I, I dunno if you're familiar withRogers Law of Diffusion of innovation, I,
I think I'm gonna edit some words there.
Rogers Law of Diffusion ofInnovation, but it's a bell curve.
And on the left we have those innovators,those early adopters, and then the chasm.
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
And then there is that chasm, and thenas you move towards the center, you've
got that early majority and the latemajority, and then all the way over to
the right, you've got that, that group oflaggards, I think is what it says on it.
(10:55):
Mm-hmm.
Um, and.
My belief is I haven't read anyspecific documentation that says
is the case, but my belief isthat each group can only really be
impacted by the group next to them.
Right?
Yeah.
So if, if a early adopter.
Comes to a laggard and says, you'vegotta try out this AI tool, let's say,
because that's something that they'regonna be really, um, intimidated by.
(11:18):
They're not gonna listen to that person atall because they, they're just, they're,
they don't relate to them over that topic.
And so I believe, and, and again,I don't have any studies that back
up that, that's just my belief.
So I believe that you've got to let.
Let it trickle down fromone group to the next group.
Now, I believe it also goes the otherway too, that if a laggard has a
negative experience relating to this newinnovation or this new strategy or this
(11:42):
new tech tool, and they tell that nextnotch up, that late majority or whatever
they are, they could pull them downinto, into essentially being a laggard.
That's my belief.
And so you, you've really gottaimpact them kind of one at a time.
And so my goal always, if I, if I'mworking with the school district,
let's say, and I go to the dreadedstaff meeting and I'm presenting
to the whole staff and I know that.
I've got all five levels of thatbell curve in the room with me.
(12:04):
I know that there's nothing I coulddo to bring that laggard on board
right now, but there are things thatI could do to turn them off right now.
So my goal is always tokeep everybody positive.
Whether or not they want to adopt it rightnow is fine because sooner or later that
idea is gonna get to that laggard, and Idon't want them to feel negative about it.
And I don't want them to pullthe other people down with them.
(12:25):
So I, I, I would rather all 100% ofpeople in that group feel positively.
And maybe right now I'm just winning overthe 17% and knowing that seeing person
at the 17th percentile do this is gonnaimpact the person at the 18th percentile
and the person at the 19th percentile.
So I think that that positivity,and that comes with relationship
too, that comes with trust that theyhave in you when you're presenting
(12:47):
to them or working with them.
That's really smart.
Nick (12:49):
Yeah.
It's a brilliant approach and youhave the perfect demeanor for it,
but I also think that the model thatyou're working within allows you to
personalize the instruction with theteachers whenever you Yeah, that's, yeah.
I mean, if you put all these teachersin a room, and some of them don't
even know how to use Google Docs.
Mm-hmm.
And others are.
You know, maybe created Google Docs.
Mm-hmm.
(13:09):
It's difficult to send the same message.
So I love your model and I love
Marc (13:12):
your approach.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love the name Educational Duct tape.
So, uh, can you just kind of takeus through what that, what that
means to you and, and what thatsymbolizes or is a metaphor of.
Jake (13:23):
Yeah.
So year, years and years ago, more than adecade ago, I was, uh, a, a friend of mine
that lives in this, this area and teachesuniversity classes, uh, for pre-service
teachers, had reached out to me to talkto students about educational technology
and what I wanted to say to them.
'cause I saw all these student teacherscoming into our school just trying
out all, whatever the new bells andwhistles of technology were at that time.
(13:45):
But they were doing it kind of, um.
Without regard for why, likewhy are you using that tool?
Why are you using a cahoot right now?
I don't know.
The kids like it.
Are you trying to build theirDOK knowledge, one knowledge?
Are you trying to teach'em some vocabulary?
Are you trying to review something?
Like why are you doing that?
And they didn't really have a reason.
When I talked to that class, Ireally wanted to talk to em about
how we use educational technologyas tools to support us in achieving
(14:09):
pedagogical or teacher goals orsolving problems or meeting needs.
And so I gave him that presentation andthen afterwards I said to the teacher,
I said, you know, I think I want.
To continue to do this work and speakto people about this exact topic.
Uh, he said, what do you think?
And he said, yeah, that's great.
Uh, except the title that you gavefor the talk, which was something like
viewing educational technology toolsas things that can help us achieve
(14:30):
it was like a really long name.
Right?
He is like that, that title that yougave it, it needs to be sexier if
you're gonna keep doing this and.
So soon thereafter, my kids are now,uh, 15, 13, and 11, but they were
much, they were five, three and oneor something like that at this time.
We had an inflatablebounce house in our house.
Um, and my kids loved playingin this inflatable bounce house.
And one day I went to fill it upfor them and it sprung a leak.
(14:53):
It was pushing air out of it.
And we had thrown away the patch kit yearsago 'cause we didn't know what it was.
We were just laying on thefloor with our kids' toys.
So we had no patch kit.
And what I. Discovered was thatduct tape was a really good
patch for the bounce house.
And I started kind of thinking aboutthat idea about how duct tape by
itself, it's, it's just a thing, right?
But when it's solving aproblem for us, then it's super
(15:14):
powerful and super impactful.
And so that became my metaphor,that educational technology
is our educational duct tape.
It is our thing, it's our toolthat solves problems for us.
Sometimes.
It sounds like I'm saying thateducational technology is, is just
by default, non elegant, like.
Like Ed, like a duct tape is, but thatdoesn't mean that can't be elegant.
Right.
There's some really sophisticateded tech out there, but the important
(15:34):
part is it's just a tool that thattool that you're using and excited
about isn't, is worthless or nothingif you're not focusing on achieving
some specific pedagogical benefit.
Right, right,
Marc (15:45):
right,
Jake (15:47):
right.
Marc (15:47):
Right.
Nick (15:47):
Well, well stated.
Well stated.
Well, we might, we might as wellget to AI by now, right, Jake?
Yeah.
So where's your comfort leveland optimism regarding the
integration of AI in education?
Jake (15:59):
Yes.
Yes is my answer.
Because it, there's like, no,there's like, no, I don't even know.
I'm like all over the place.
I'm, I'm currently reading thisbook More Than Words by John Warner.
Have you guys heard of it?
I have not.
No, I just, I kept hearing about it.
I just stole the song
Marc (16:11):
from the eighties.
That's right.
It is
Jake (16:12):
not, it has nothing to do with the song.
Okay.
I sent it to a friend today.
I said, I'm reading this book,and she sent me a video of
extreme performing the song.
There it is, man.
And then I said, no, thisversion and I sent back.
There's a version of Jimmy Fallon andJack Black performing it, which is
spot on and it makes it hysterical.
But no, it has nothing,nothing to do with the song.
Um, I actually heard of it through,we mentioned Rick Wormeli earlier.
(16:33):
Uh, Wormeli wrote one of the, um.
Uh, I don't know, one of the quotes in thebook and put it out on his social media.
And that's the first place I heard it.
And then I heard it on a podcast, Ibelieve it was the search engine podcast.
Uh, and I heard it somewhere else too.
And I was like, I keep hearingabout this book and I keep
being really excited about it.
I think I need to read this.
And so I, I'm two or threechapters in right now.
(16:53):
Um, but it's talking about how,uh, the written language words
are more than words, right?
So something like chat, GPT orany large language model does
a great job of writing words.
And it does a great job of generatingwords that it thinks we're going
to like, but that's not what theprocess of writing is about, right?
Writing isn't just about writing words,it's, it's about more than the words.
(17:16):
And so I think when I think about ai, Iam excited about the possibilities of it.
I use it a lot, but Ithink we need to go back.
To that, that duct tape idea,and really think about what are
we trying to achieve here now?
What are we trying to get acrosswith what we're doing here?
I saw a guy named Dave StewartJr. Speak recently, and Dave
referenced this metaphor that he hadrecently heard from somebody else.
(17:36):
That was if, if I wanna get reallystrong and I go to the gym to lift
weights and I bring a forklift withme and I load the weights on the
forklift and have the forklift.
Take the weights up and down for me.
Is that okay?
And I, and Dave didn't say thisnext part, I was like waiting on the
edge of my seat for him to say it.
I think he was being a writer and lettingme think it instead of him saying it.
But the point is, the goal wasn'tto lift the weights, right?
(17:58):
The goal was to get stronger.
And so I think we have tokeep that in mind with ai.
What is the ai, what, what isour goal when we're using it?
You know, so if, if for example, we'reusing a tool like school ai and we want
our kids to do some self-assessmentand reflection, uh, about a certain
topic, and school AI is kind of like atutor, helping them do that, that's I
(18:19):
think a pretty great use of ai, right?
Because it's helping us achieve the goal.
But if a kid's going to Claude,let's say a large language model.
And saying, write this essay for me,then the kid's not getting stronger, like
in that weightlifting metaphor, right?
So we just have to bereally mindful about that.
I think that requires a couple things too.
One is, which is part of what this bookis talking about, uh, more than words, is
(18:40):
changing the way we think about writingin school to make it so it's actually
relevant and meaningful and importantand motivational for kids, right?
But it also means that we need to be.
Talking to our kids about this,talking 'em about how we use ai,
how we don't use AI, and, and ourreasoning behind it and why some uses
are okay and other users are not okay.
Marc (18:58):
Can I take that one step further or maybe add a third prong?
I think part of it also in thisreflection that you're talking about
is we have for so long structuredschool around the exchange for
like your compliance for points.
Jake (19:11):
Yes.
Marc (19:11):
Yeah.
So we have taught.
Students that this isthe all important thing.
You need your points to get your credits.
You need your credits to get your diploma.
You need your, your diploma tohave the life that you mm-hmm.
Are dreaming of having.
Mm-hmm.
So they're just playing bythe rules that we have created
Jake (19:25):
100%.
Marc (19:26):
So when we say write an essay, they're thinking, I need points.
The technology's giving them.
A shortcut to help them getthe points that they want.
That's how they're trying to win the game.
If we redirect the focus to, like,what's really important, it's about
learning, it's about getting stronger.
Just like you said.
It's about building up those skills.
So we have to really take, take astrong look at what we are doing and,
(19:49):
and the carrots and the sticks thatwe are bringing into the educational
model because we, I think rhetoricallyhave all the right messages, but are
we historically creating the right.
Frameworks to get the outcomesthat we're talking about.
Jake (20:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree 100% there.
There's some work that I got reallyexcited about through, so in, uh, my
personalized learning work as I was kindof, this is year three in it, and now
I feel like I know most of the stuff.
Right?
Not all of the stuff.
I'm still learning.
But early on I was just kind ofscratching the surface and learning
about all the different things.
And one part of personalizedlearning is student setting goals.
And I was like, what does that mean?
What's, what's a good goal?
(20:24):
What does that look like?
And so as I was learning about goalsetting, I learned about the two different
orientations that a goal could have.
One is, uh, a, uh, mastery goal.
And one is a, uh, performanceoriented, performance oriented
or mastery oriented goals.
Um, and a performance orientedgoal is exactly what you're saying.
The perform if all, if your goal is theA or the finished essay or lifting the
(20:46):
weights, the studies have shown thatyou are going to try to do those things.
By any means necessary.
Right?
That's right.
And we all, we all have a borderof what we will and won't do.
Mm-hmm.
But some people for, in thatsituation, if they could cheat,
they'll just cheat, right?
By any means necessary.
They want to achieve that goal.
And so what you're saying iswe need to get away from these
performance oriented goals.
(21:06):
Focus on mastery oriented goals, which issaying, I'm trying to build a skill here.
I'm trying to get better at something.
And the studies have also shown thatif you're doing that, then you're less
likely to do means of like cheating,for example, to get there because
cheating doesn't achieve that goal.
For example, for me, I'm 45 years old.
I'm getting to the age of life where Ineed to make, I need to take care of my
(21:27):
body and make sure I'm strong, right?
I'm not just trying to show up,looking good in a, in a bathing
suit at the lake this summer.
Like, I need to just takecare of myself as I get older.
And so.
When I work out, it doesn't makesense for me to use a forklift because
my goal is not lifting the weights.
Similarly, it doesn't make sense forme to use steroids because my goal
is not how I look with my shirt off.
(21:50):
My goal is to be strong and healthy,and steroids won't help with that.
Forklift won't help with that.
Lifting some weights and goingfor a run on the treadmill,
those things will help with that.
So my goal is mastery oriented,not performance oriented.
I think that's, that, that'sthe biggest problem with ai.
But it's a problem we've been dealing within education for decades, maybe a century.
Right?
It's, it's, it's all of theproblems we've had come out of that.
(22:11):
That's the way we've built education.
It's a system,
Marc (22:13):
but cheating has never been so easy.
Yeah.
Right.
That's part of it.
That's the challenge.
And one of the things that I am concernedabout is I, I, I try to, as Nick will
hopefully, hopefully say, I try to remainvery optimistic about education because I
believe it's the most important and mostvaluable gift that we can give our kids.
It's essential to everything.
But I, I fear what I'm calling like theAI infinite loop, which is the teacher
(22:35):
uses AI to generate the assignment.
The student uses AI to completethe assignment, and the teacher
uses AI to grade the assignment.
The loop is complete and not asingle human being has actually
contributed to the work.
Yeah.
And, and I feel like we're like on thecusp of that very, very thing happening.
And it, it's a major concern.
Yeah.
Because once we get on that hamsterwheel, I don't know how easy it's
(22:56):
gonna be to get off that hamster wheel.
Jake (22:58):
Yeah.
I, I think, I think it's super concerningtoo, and I think it is happening in
some places and in some classrooms.
And the issue with what you'resaying there is again, the student.
Has a performance oriented goal, whichis complete this task, and the teacher
has a performance oriented goal,which is have kids do the task, right?
Nobody in that situation has amastery oriented goal of the kid
mastering a skill and the teachersupporting them in mastering the skill.
(23:20):
I don't think that all AI use isbad, for example, I think agreed.
Teacher is using itfor some, some grading.
I actually don't think that's horrible.
Like I want them to do as much grading asthey possibly have time for within reason.
But if we can give kids more feedbackfaster, right, and take some time off
of teacher's plates so that they canwork with those kids, I'm okay with it.
The issue is that that's a masteryoriented goal of supporting
(23:42):
those kids and that that's thechange that needs to happen.
I think,
Nick (23:45):
yeah.
I mean, if the, if.
The grading, like you said, if thatallows teachers to have more time mm-hmm.
To meet with kids andpersonalized the feedback.
'cause I was giving a professionaldevelopment session two days ago and uh,
an exceptional teacher who I know, youknow, she said her concern is if the AI
is just grading the papers, how do youeven know how your students are improving?
(24:08):
You have to be able to read their work.
Yeah.
And see what their.
Submitting so that you can givethem that type of feedback.
So if you just read the feedback, Idon't know if that's gonna be enough.
Jake (24:17):
Yeah, I, I think there has to be some, some teacher grading and
then we, we might need to supplementit with some, some of this AI done.
But certainly if it's all AI done, we'recreating some major problems there.
Or if it's all AI done and theteacher doesn't even look at
the data, that's a problem.
And if the kid doesn't lookat the data, that's a problem.
Nick (24:31):
That's true also.
'cause they could just have it gradedand then send the grades to the grade
book and they haven't even takenany interest in the performance.
Jake (24:39):
I'm sure it's already happening.
Yeah.
Well, and I think that goes back tosome of the problems we're talking
about there, where the grade hasnothing, we're doing assessment
wrong, if that's what we're doing.
We're using assessment as a wayto calculate grades instead of a
way to inform instruction and growlearners who are mastering skills.
And so if all the teacher.
If all the kid sees it as is a way toget a grade and all the teacher sees
(25:02):
it as, is it a way to more quicklyenter the grade, essentially, then
we're looking at assessment wrongand the AI fits just fine there.
Why not?
Right.
Right.
And it shouldn't, but yeah.
Nick (25:13):
Well, and that's where my optimism lies with the hope that
AI's gonna push us to reallyrestructure how we approach education.
Jake (25:22):
Yeah.
I think the power's there.
Yeah,
Nick (25:24):
I mean, I'm concerned about the, the writing and the copy of the essays.
Like Marc said, it's just easiernow, but people have always cheated.
Mm-hmm.
Kids have never not had an era where theyweren't trying to take the easy way out.
But it's just, but it's as quickas hitting a button these days.
Jake (25:40):
Yep.
Wormeli calls it in arecent paper on, uh, a MLE.
Do I get it?
Like a bingo board of like,Wormeli mentions It's three
in three in one interview.
Are we
Marc (25:49):
playing the whole card or just the frame?
I don't know.
I don't know.
I dunno how it
Jake (25:51):
works.
I, I have three worms againstyour, I don't even know.
But he, uh, wrote a, a article, agreat article for A MLE recently,
and he calls it, um, academic Coplay.
Uh, so essentially like when we'redoing things in the classroom that's
wearing the costume of learning, butnot actually doing the learning, and
we don't wanna play academic cosplay.
(26:12):
I think that's a brilliant term.
He's so good at that.
Marc (26:14):
I'm, I'm envious of how he comes up with those things.
So obviously we'retalking about technology.
Clearly technology is a massivedistraction for our students,
and it's more and more dauntingfor teachers to have to overcome
distracted students and engage them.
So what are your, what are your wordsof wisdom when you are working with
educators to help them have the toolsand support them in trying to figure
(26:34):
out how to motivate students to blockout, maybe not all of that noise, but.
A lot of that noise so they cankind of get focused on the task in
hand and learn in their classrooms.
Jake (26:43):
Yeah.
I do think for a lot of our kids,some of that blocking out of the
distractions we might have to do for them.
So schools that have done, for example,my, my oldest son's school, every
classroom they walk into, there'sa caddy at the front of the room.
They put their phone in there, theyget it back after class, they could
check their messages in between class.
If they're taking pictures of somethingduring the lesson, they can go grab it.
Otherwise they can't use it.
I think we do likethey're addictive devices.
(27:05):
And so we have to, to an extent,step in for those kids and help
them out as they're building thoseskills of doing it themselves.
I think there's a little bit of that.
Um.
The other part just goes back to, to truemotivation and the ver the difference
between, first of all, between intrinsicmotivation and extrinsic motivation.
So if everything we're doing in school isan extrinsic motivator, if we're trying to
(27:26):
motivate them with grades and punishments,carrots and sticks, as you said before,
we're not gonna motivate them very well.
And then they're gonna be really apt tobe distracted by the technology, right?
Whereas if we could motivate themintrinsically, help them want to learn,
help them see this self-assess, andwant to grow and wanna get better
at things, develop a growth mindsetin our classroom, see learning as an
opportunity to take some risks and makesome mistakes, and then learn from them.
(27:49):
If we could shift to that.
Then we get more motivation'cause it's intrinsic.
And then we see them being lessapt to go to those distractions.
Now, whenever I talk with teachers,I have to tell them, I understand
that we're not in utopia.
That's, this is reality.
That's right.
These are children, these arereal children and real teenagers.
And I can't just say, we'll makethem intrinsically motivated and then
(28:09):
they'll put their phones away and theteachers are like, yeah, whatever.
Right?
Because I know that's not true.
One thing, do you guys know theself-determination theory continuum
that, uh, DC and I forget the other.
Author of it that breaks up thelevels of extrinsic motivation.
Are you familiar with that?
Marc (28:24):
Yes, vaguely.
But please
Jake (28:26):
refresh our memories.
So I, this is another thing thatas I was learning about the work
that I do, I, I was like, I needto, I need to understand this.
And the way I bring it back to all the,all the time is like, I don't know the
names of the different levels off the topof my head, but I bring it back to chores.
So my own kids, I have threeof 'em with chores, I have
to force them to do it right.
They don't fight back and theydo it, but I have to go like,
Hey, empty the dishwasher.
(28:47):
Hey, I told you 10 minutes ago, emptythe dishwasher, get up and go empty
the dishwasher, and then they'll do it.
Now, me with chores, Idon't like to do chores.
I'm not very motivated to do chores, but Iknow that if I don't clean that bathroom,
my wife's gonna clean that bathroomand I'm gonna feel guilty about it.
So I have kind of taken on her goal.
Right.
And I'm doing it for that reason.
So that's a step up interms of motivation.
(29:09):
It's still extrinsic, right?
I'm so motivated by her desire to do it.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
But she's not forcing me anymore.
The next notch up is her, right?
She doesn't want to cleanthe bathroom, right.
But she takes, she takes prideout of it being clean, and
she desires it being clean.
She wants it to be clean.
So even though she's not intrinsicallymotivated to clean it, she is more
motivated because she desires that.
(29:30):
And that's like a kid startingto desire the learning, right?
Mm-hmm.
So they wouldn't do it.
If there weren't a grade, you know?
Marc (29:37):
Yeah.
We we're just gonna leave thedoors of the school open and
if you just wanna come on in,
Jake (29:41):
you know.
Right.
That's not realistic.
That's true.
Intrinsic motivation's notrealistic in most places, but
if we can get them excited aboutthe learning, they might do it.
Now the next notch up is my neighbor.
This guy mows his lawn twicea week, normally like, like
we're about to be ready for lawnmowing, I think next week in Ohio.
I bet he mows it.
Twice next week.
And he'll, he mo he mows.
How fast does the
Marc (30:01):
grass grow in in Ohio?
Not very.
Jake (30:03):
Not very.
And he mos it both ways.
He creates the, the of the cut like,like a, like he's in a baseball
field league outfield, right?
For sure he does.
And one day I asked him, whatis with you in the lawn mowing?
And he said, that's my happy place, man.
I enjoy it.
I've got four kids and a wife.
I come home from work.
All of the sports, we'regoing to all of the places.
(30:24):
There's all the things to do.
There's the dinners to cook andthe things to talk about, and
I just plug in my headphones.
I go outside and I mow the lawn, right?
Because he's in, he's actuallyenjoying the learning.
So that's the next step up.
My wife doesn't enjoy.
Cleaning that bathroom.
She enjoys having it done.
My neighbor enjoys theprocess of mowing the lawn.
Hmm.
Now I will point out that I haven'tseen him mow his lawn in six weeks.
(30:46):
Um, six, six months.
I'm sorry.
Since before, since the weather changed.
Right.
He could be out there mowing inthe winter, but he's not right
because it's still a littlebit of extrinsic motivation.
He still needs the grass to grow.
To tell him to go mow.
He could potentially just mownothing if he enjoys it that much.
But that's still a littlebit extrinsic motivation.
So my question always is, how do weshift kids that direction, right?
(31:08):
Mm-hmm.
How do we make them value the goals?
How do we make them valuecompletion of the goals?
How do we make them value the learning?
How do we make them enjoy the process?
They still might not choose to do it, buthow do we shift them in that direction?
That's what I talk about.
That has nothing to dowith ed tech either.
But nowadays, everything wedo, we can do with ed tech.
But a kids, I remember when I firststarted teaching 22 years ago, just
(31:30):
using technology, made kids excited.
They wanna to do it because of technology.
Nowadays that's not the case.
So how do we shift them inthat direction to do that?
I don't know.
Where are you guys at on goals?
Or I'm sorry, on chores.
How are, how are youdoing your chores, Nick?
Are you a good chore doer?
Nick (31:44):
If, if it's on a list, yes, I will do it.
So, uh, that's not a problem at all.
But I love what you just saidabout, you know, the tech, like
you referenced Kahoot before.
Yeah.
Kahoot is nice.
Yeah.
But if you do Kahoot for every unit, yes.
At some point it becomes stale.
Jake (32:00):
Yeah, for sure.
Nick (32:01):
And you know, there was a time where even if you played like
a five minute video in class Yeah.
The kids would get so excited.
Oh my God, we're gonnawatch your video right now.
Wow.
Now video is take out my phonetime to tell me when it's over.
Jake (32:12):
Yeah, for sure.
So you gotta, you gotta embedquestions to keep 'em engaged.
Yeah.
When
Marc (32:16):
I used to wheel in the laser disc player, it was the roar
that would come over the crowd.
Nick (32:23):
Yeah.
So I think you're right.
You have to build up thatintrinsic motivation.
And of course you can use thetechnology to enhance that.
But it's not gonna do it all by itself.
Jake (32:32):
Yeah, certainly.
Marc (32:32):
Just to build off of Nick's point, some technology is really bells
and whistles and other forms of edtech is really more transformative.
So how do you direct people towardsthe transformative technology and maybe
a little bit away from the bells andwhistles technology and how like, and
how do you teach them how to discern thedifference between the two on their own?
Jake (32:52):
Yeah, I, I try to always start the conversation with
what they're trying to achieve.
Like, what's your goal?
What's your problem, what's your task?
Which takes us back to whateducational Duct Tape was as a name is.
You don't just choose to use duct tape.
Whereas that student teacher was justchoosing to use Kahoot, you choose to
do a formative assessment or you chooseto, I don't know, have kids share
with each other or you choose to, um,engage them in some, some exploration
(33:16):
of a topic or whatever it might be.
You have your pedagogical goaland then you'd identify the tool.
So I think if we alwaysstart with that step.
Then they're more likely to,to choose a technology that's
going to do those things.
And so whatever the goal is,if we start with a goal, then
we're more sure, more, sure.
More certain that we're not justdoing bells and whistles, you know?
Nick (33:37):
Yeah.
It's such great advice, but I think alot of teachers say, let me find the
tool and then figure out what my goal is.
But it really, like you said,should be the other way around.
Yeah, for sure.
What's
my goal?
What's my purpose in the lesson?
Right?
And then how can I achieve that best?
Maybe it's with this tool,maybe it's with another tool.
Maybe it doesn't require any technology.
Marc (33:55):
Yeah.
And I think also part of it is,here's how I used to teach it.
Hmm.
So now I have this new tool, so letme just integrate what I taught and
just dump it into this new thing.
Mm-hmm.
Whether it's Cahoot or whether it'sPowerPoint or whether, you know,
go along the continuum technologyover the last 20 years, but.
That's not necessarily making it moreengaging or, or making it more palpable
(34:15):
for kids or compelling, you know?
And that goes back to like the,you know, the SAMR model, right?
Mm-hmm.
We're just like substituting.
So instead of the overhead projector,I'll put it on the proximal.
Instead of the proximal, I'llput it on a flat screen TV
instead of the flat screen tv.
It'll be on a one-to-one tabletinstead of the one-to-one tablet.
Soon it'll be in themeta glasses, you know?
Yeah.
(34:36):
But it's still the same packet or thesame handout that was written in 2006.
Mm-hmm.
Or 1996.
Jake (34:43):
Yeah.
Right, and you, you've just made it.
You've just added bells andwhistles to it and made it fancier.
Now, if you had identified that inthe past time that you used it, there
were some difficulties, like youhad some Spanish speaking students
in class that couldn't accessthe the paper, then putting in a
technology tool that had translation,then you're solving a problem.
Of course, if you had identified thatyou have some kids that are reading at
(35:04):
a lower level, then using a technologytool is gonna let you translate it, but.
If you don't have any of thoseissues you're trying to resolve,
you really are just substituting
Marc (35:12):
that goes back to the intentionality that you've been talking about.
Yeah, for sure.
Nick (35:15):
So now can I like hire you for like an hour session so you can
gimme some personalized learning?
Yes, I'm ready.
Whenever you're ready.
Nick, help me in my teaching.
No, 'cause it's a great, you got me allinspired now just to even look at the way
I've been working with my own teachers.
Jake (35:27):
Well, to that point, that's why I think that, uh, instructional
coaching is, is really the next stepthat needs to happen in more schools.
We don't see a lot of instructionalcoaches doing true instructional coaching.
Um, I know myself in my pasttechnology role with the school, I
want it to be more of a coach role.
It never got to that point, and I know alot of my friends that work as technology.
Directors or specialists in schoolsdon't really get to do true coaching.
(35:51):
They're just going, Hey, did you see thenew thing that came out on Magic School?
And they're just throwing outthese exciting tools without
knowing what the problems are.
And that's not the coach's or the thecoach's fault, the tech person's fault.
They just don't have that opportunityto have that relationship.
What really needs to happen, Ithink, is talking to that teacher.
And saying, what are you working on?
Right?
So talking into Nick and sayinglike, what's that STR struggle
you're having in your classroom?
(36:11):
What could be better?
And if he says like, I just don't knowif my kids are understanding the lesson
while I'm teaching it, then I couldsuggest some formative assessment ideas.
I could say, well, let's tryPear Deck so you could hear from
every kid while you're doing it.
Or, let's try Nearpod.
And so I could put in place, Icould suggest those tech tools
that I know with my expertisebased on what you actually want.
Which thinking about how we talkedabout motivation earlier, you as a
(36:32):
teacher are gonna be more motivated.
To listen to me and implementit because it pertains back
to your own actual problem.
So it, it's that same thing thatwe talk about with our kids.
You're more likely to do that chorebecause you, val value the result.
Nick (36:44):
Yeah, it's critical.
Just Marc and I, early on, we interviewedsomeone from a school district near us,
and her job was to simply meet one-to-one
mm
with teachers.
I love it.
She had her Google calendar.
Teachers signed up half hourslot during their free period.
She went to the elementary school,the middle school, the high school.
That was her job, happens to beone of the wealthiest districts.
(37:07):
Yeah.
In our area.
Mm-hmm.
But that really is what needs to happenbecause that's when the best professional
development is going to take place.
Yeah, for sure.
Jake (37:14):
Because it's driven by that teacher, right?
They're talking and somebody'slistening and somebody's offering
expertise where they need, butreally it's driven by the teacher.
Uh, and that's what's so powerful.
Nick (37:23):
It's not just the early adapters that are looking for that help.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I really think there's an overwhelmingnumber of teachers that would
love that opportunity, but theywant it to be done conveniently.
Yeah.
They don't want it to be force fed,you know, after just a after school
meeting where everybody's going to.
Mm-hmm.
Or so.
I think it would be a great model.
If it can be, uh, replicated, but youguys are doing a great job in your state.
(37:44):
'cause that is a niceprogram that you're part of.
Marc (37:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Jake (37:47):
That's great.
Marc (37:47):
Yeah.
As I was listening to your, your responsebefore, Jake, I, I, I was thinking about
this metaphor and, and I was born andraised in Brooklyn, so I know like the
least about farming maybe of anybody,anybody in America, but like I. I know
enough to know that it's not just aboutthrowing seeds on the ground, right?
They have to be, there has to be a system.
There has to be, you have to drill downand create the proper depth for the seeds.
(38:08):
You have to have the properorganization for the seeds.
You have to have the properwatering of the seeds and
all of these different steps.
And I think a lot of times withwhat you're saying is like,
okay, so here's technology.
We're gonna sprinkle seeds and they'llgrow because that's what, that's what.
Happens with seeds, but farming isa lot more complicated than that.
Yeah.
And a lot more scientific thanthat, and a lot more specific
and intentional than that.
(38:29):
And I think that's kind ofwhat you're talking about.
Yeah.
Whereas there's a lot of drive by help,which is not without its value, but
it's not nearly making the impact andhaving a level of effectiveness mm-hmm.
As what espousing here withyour, your kind of pedagogical
mindset and your duct tape.
Approach to things.
Yeah.
Jake (38:48):
Which is so smart and so needed.
Yeah, thanks.
And to think about that farmingidea, you know, some farms and some
soil and some ecosystems in someareas are good for growing corn
and others are not, for example.
And some farms and areas are gonnaneed more water and some are gonna
need less water and things like that.
And I think the same.
Is true of our teachers.
Some of them are going to love using atool like Magic School and others are not.
(39:11):
Right.
And it's not a good fit for them.
And to your point earlier, I thinkNick said it earlier about Kahoot, we
don't really want them all doing thesame thing anyhow because that's when
it gets boring if everybody's doing it.
So it's best for, that'swhy it's hard to have a, um.
A presenter come into a school andtalk about a certain technology tool.
'cause we really don't want every teacherin that school using it, number one.
And then number two, it's not actuallythe right tool for all of them.
(39:33):
'cause they don't have the problemor the lens or whatever that
that yields it or that needs it.
Yeah,
Marc (39:37):
that's
Jake (39:38):
right.
Marc (39:38):
I mean, you've, you've shared so many wonderful ideas and, and I
know that Nick and I could definitelytalk to you forever, but I want,
we do wanna respect your time.
I just wanna ask one more question beforewe, before we wrap up with, with wearable
technology being on the cusp of the nexthuge thing, which is like, it hard to
imagine that we're gonna first go througha next huge thing since we just got
completely like, you know, sideswipe with,with large language models, not even, you
(40:00):
know, two, two and a half years ago atthis point, to what extent is AR and VR.
Going to be like the next plateauor the next hill that we climb?
Or do you think we'regonna like miss that?
Like I What's your take on that?
Because of the, because ofthese glasses and, yeah.
And the integration.
Do you think that that's gonna make itsway into our classroom in a profound way?
(40:21):
Or do you think it's gonnabe like a passing fat?
Jake (40:23):
I think I'm just scared.
I dunno.
I'm not, I'm not, I'm,I'm, you're supposed to be
Marc (40:27):
the optimist here, Jade.
That's right.
You're killing
Jake (40:29):
us.
I'm, I'm, so you said, you were talkingearlier about the SAMR model and the
substitutions and you, and you talkedabout going from, from the video to the
tablet to the screen in front of theroom, and then you went to the wearable
meta glasses or whatever, and I just kindof like cringed a little bit because how
crazy will that be when we get there?
But I think the same problemswill be present when this happens.
(40:50):
It's surely gonna be a disruptor.
I dunno how big of a disruptor will be.
But the same problems will be there wherekids are distracted by those devices if
they don't care about the learning, right?
Kids are likely to usethose devices to cheat.
If they're motivated only by thegrade and by completing the work,
by the carrots, by the sticks.
So it's going to be the same sets ofproblems that we're dealing with AI
(41:12):
that we dealt with, with cell phones,that we dealt with, with Wikipedia,
with the internet, with Chromebooks.
Those same sets of problems aregoing to present themselves with
these wearable technologies.
The the additional problem, it'sgonna be really hard to tell
when kids are using them and not.
So we really have to buildour environments so that the
kids don't want to use them.
I think is the most important part.
Nick (41:31):
Is that a good enough answer for you, Marc?
Because I count, I, I
Jake (41:33):
love
Marc (41:33):
it.
I'll be replaying.
Replaying that one a few times.
Nice.
That's amazing.
Jake, thank you so much for sharingall of your insights and your wisdom
and your understanding of technologybecause it's such a critical, it's such
a critical viewpoint at this, at this.
Juncture in education.
Um, we really need more voices like yours.
Jake (41:50):
Oh, thank you guys.
I appreciate being on, I'm a hugefan of this show and I'm excited
to get to talk to you guys.
Nick (41:54):
Thank you very much, Jake.
I really thank you so much.
Yeah.
I really enjoyed speaking with youand uh, you definitely, like I said,
you got me inspired to do a fewdifferent things in the classroom.
I.
Jake (42:01):
Love it.
Thank you.
Marc (42:02):
So if you'd like to catch up on previous episodes of State
of Ed, you can find us on ApplePodcast, Spotify, Amazon, YouTube.
You could also find us on the web at stateof ed podcast.com, where you'll find links
to what we've discussed, including how toreach Jake on social media and on the web.
You can also follow me on Twitterat Marcus six or marcus six.com
on YouTube at edup pyro edu, PYRO.
(42:25):
And also check out Jake's bookand you can check out my book.
Captivate, engaging and empoweringstudents in a world of digital
distractions available on Amazon.
So, uh, and please besure to leave a comment.
I'd love to hear your thoughts aboutthe book, about the podcast, and
anything else education related.
Jake Miller, thank you so much forsharing your time with us this evening.
And I'm, uh, selfishly happy that yourson's, uh, baseball game was rained
(42:47):
out so you could keep our appointmenthere with us, uh, this evening.
It was such a treat to, to talk to you.
Jake (42:53):
Yeah, thanks guys.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com