December 6, 2024 • 42 mins
Summary:
In this episode of Emboldened with Jessica, host Jessica Jackson a Decolonizing Somatic Therapist, sits down with special guest Madeline Ammar, an Afroecletic Queer Somatic Therapist, and cosmic Faerie, to dive into the complex and emotional world of family estrangement. Together, they explore the reasons behind family conflicts, the challenges of going no contact, and the grief that often accompanies these decisions.
This conversation illuminates the importance of self-care, setting boundaries, and protecting one's peace, especially during times like the holidays. Jessica and Madeline also discuss practical ways to navigate difficult family dynamics, find community and considerations on reconnecting with estranged family members.
This episode highlights the experience of family estrangement for Queer folx, and people of color. If you're feeling isolated or unsure about how to navigate or support a loved one with strained family dynamics this holiday season, this conversation is for YOU. ❤️
💜 Love the show? Support Emboldened with Jessica! 💜
Your donation helps cover production costs and improve audio quality. Click here to donate and keep the bold conversations coming! Thank you for your support! 🙌✨
Chapters:
00:00 Navigating Family Estrangement During the Holidays
02:51 Understanding Estrangement: Causes and Dynamics
06:09 The Process of Going No Contact
08:55 Breaking the Cycle of Family Conflict
12:10 Grief and Expectations in Family Relationships
15:06 Handling Guilt and External Pressures
17:52 Protecting Your Peace During Family Gatherings
21:01 Reconnecting with Estranged Family Members
24:08 Volunteering and Building Community
26:53 Final Thoughts on Estrangement and Healing
Madeline Ammar, LCSW's Contact:
Instagram: @Reishi_Somatics
Website: Psychology Today Profile
Jessica’s Cozy Book Nook - Bookshop
-
Mother Hunger: How Adult Daughters Can Understand and Heal from Lost Nurturance, Protection, and Guidance by Kelly McDaniel- Bookshop
-
Children of the Self-absorbed: A Grown-Up's Guide to Getting Over Narcissistic Parents by Nina W. Brown - Bookshop
-
Drama Free: A Guide to Managing Unhealthy Family Relationships by Nedra Glover Tawwab - Bookshop
Stay Connected:
Instagram: @EmboldenedwithJessica
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
you
Welcome to the show in Emboldened with Jessica.
I'm Jessica, a mental health professional.
And today we're going to be talking about family estrangement.
This time of year, there's so many folks who are navigating anxiety or apprehension aboutbeing around family members who have no chill, who feel the need to say comments about our
(00:33):
bodies, comments about who we love, comments about how we live our life.
And sometimes it goes deeper than that in the sense that perhaps these family members havebeen harmful all of our lives, really harmful in a way that impacts our mental health, in
a way that has caused us trauma that maybe we're still navigating or working to heal from.
(00:58):
And so the holidays can be a beautiful, wondrous time and they also can have theirchallenges.
And for those who are challenged,
about being around family or perhaps the family of your partner, today we're gonna reallytalk about ways to support yourself and some topics that come up quite a bit when we think
about family estrangement.
(01:26):
All right, welcome.
So we're really fortunate today.
We have a special guest.
We have an expert that's gonna be talking to us a little bit about family estrangement.
So Madeline, thank you for joining us.
Yeah, I'm so glad to be here.
So Madeline Moore, they, them pronouns, is an Afro-eclectic queer cosmic fairy that masksas a therapist and holds a license as an LCSW trained in yoga therapy.
(01:55):
Somatic Experiencing, EMDR, Hakomi and Co-regulating Touch for Trauma.
They also run a body in ecology-oriented practice, Reishi Somatics, based out of Portland,Oregon.
Their personal mission is to uplift Black, queer, and trans folks, hello, to live in theirtruth and their innate joy and power.
(02:17):
Thank you, Madeline, for joining us.
Yeah, I'm so glad to be here.
We have all kinds of questions.
I mean, when we're talking about family estrangement, this comes up a lot, especiallyaround the holidays or times when folks might have to travel and be around, they knew that
might be a little bit difficult for them to navigate.
(02:39):
In your experience as a therapist, what are some of the biggest reasons families end up inconflict?
Well, so I'll just give the context of the type of people that I support.
And most of the people I support, identify as either Black or Indigenous, or they identifyas a person of color.
(03:02):
And they might also hold the experience of being queer, being trans, being non-binary.
And so often what I see is people are strange because there's not a whole lot ofunderstanding about the intersection of.
both of those experiences.
I would also say that I've seen estrangement happen because of misunderstandings in termsof like value systems.
(03:31):
I've seen estrangement happen because of difficulty blending families.
I've seen estrangements happen because there's maybe an ongoing conflict or some embeddedfamily trauma that makes it challenging for
those folks in conflict to see or understand where each other are coming from.
(03:54):
yeah, there's, think a lot of common patterns are feeling of not being understood infamilies, feeling like attacked by family members can be another experience that happens
when someone decides to make the decision to become estranged.
And I would say it's not even really a decision that someone makes.
(04:15):
Usually most of the people I work with have
tried and tried to bridge the gap.
So it's not really a choice.
It's a non-choice.
It's like you're back in the corner and that's the thing that is the most, that's the onlyway through to kind of keep your sense of self and your peace intact.
Yeah, I think that's a really critical point that folks who might be estranged fromfamily, they have tried everything else, right?
(04:40):
They've tried the different tools, the gray rocking, they've tried setting boundaries andthose boundaries weren't honored.
They've tried to educate family members.
And so it's kind of a last resort almost.
And I've seen estrangements will play out in all different kinds of way depending on therelationships and the context.
And so I've often seen in some of the people that I support that estrangement is like evenwhen folks are making the decision to be estranged or they're having like a limited
(05:12):
contact relationship.
the harm is still occurring in whatever way that it might show up.
But oftentimes the person who is estranged is just finding a different way to metabolizethat harm.
Correct.
Yeah.
Which isn't great, but it makes a lot of sense when we start to better understand that wedon't always know someone else's dynamic.
(05:36):
Yes, yes.
Unless we're in it ourselves, we can't really know.
how it feels to be in that particular dynamic.
And so I have a lot of compassion for people who have to make that decision to back awayfrom family.
And even sometimes family who were in that dynamic, let's say they're siblings or they'resomehow related and they've seen some of the dysfunction, they might still choose a
(06:02):
different way of being.
And so sometimes even they won't understand.
curious about when we hear someone talking about going no contact with a family, breakdown what that actually looks like in real life.
What is the term estrangement?
What does the term no contact mean for those that maybe are a little bit less familiarwith it?
(06:25):
Yeah, so estrangement is the process of deciding to separate from
your family of origin, whether that's from your entire family or from a parent or parentsor siblings, it's deciding that the relationship is no longer healthy and beneficial.
And you are choosing to kind of cut your losses and just live your life as a separate solobeing entity.
(06:54):
And a lot of times going no contact can look
various ways.
I've had people who just kind of silently phase out and their family members might, youknow, really wonder or question.
For example, I have a number of folks who are Black or people of color that have beenadopted by white families.
(07:15):
And it's really complicated and complex for them to try and understand or explain racismthat they experience.
especially in light of 2020 and when these conversations have kind of come more into theforeground.
So in those instances, I've supported a few people who I don't think would mind me sharingthat they just decided to kind of like ghost.
(07:40):
It's like too big of a conversation.
Yeah, like the avenues aren't there.
And you know, you're going to be damned if you do damned if you don't.
So right.
The best way to deal with that is like, you know, I'm just gonna like silently move out ofstate and live my life.
And maybe I will contact you when a holiday rolls around, but I might not.
(08:03):
And then I've also seen no contacts happen where there's more of a formal conversation.
Maybe there's been a bid to go to therapy.
Maybe there's been kind of pulling in of other family members to try and support.
And it comes to the point where someone just makes a formal
announcement to the family that I'm no longer wanting to be part of this.
(08:25):
Yeah, and don't think either outcome is easy, but it exists across the spectrum.
And if you're someone who is feeling like you're playing with the idea of a strange man orfeeling more and more like that might be the best thing for keeping your peace and
maintaining your sanity, you can have it look any way that really feels best for you.
(08:55):
I'm curious also if we were to go back a step and think about before it gets to the pointof family estrangement, when there's this reoccurring kind of family conflict that just
never seems to get resolved, like when we're communicating our needs, it's not beingheard.
What are some practical steps that you advise the folks that you work with to take to kindof break that cycle of hurt?
(09:22):
Yeah.
What's coming up for me is to think about like, there's like a part of me that wants tojump in and be like, here's the things you can do.
And then there's the other part of me that's like, everyone's context is so different.
So I'm just kind of holding both of those experiences, but like I can give some practicalsteps and also like they may not fit for the listener's context and that's okay too.
(09:46):
And if it doesn't fit, that doesn't mean that, you know.
That means that there's a different way, a different map that you might use to moveforward.
You know, I think that that's brilliant, right?
So when it's a really great therapist, there's no one size fit all kind of approach.
It's really exploring what does that person, what is the individual you're working with oryou're working alongside, what is it that they're hoping to have happen?
(10:12):
What is their, you know, what are their goals?
And then kind of working together and
some different tools based off of what their desired outcome really is.
Because for some people, it's, I'm already tired and exhausted.
I don't have the energy to even get out of bed, let alone try to map out how to improvethis relationship.
(10:33):
And it's fair and valid.
And for some people, the relationship really, really matters, maybe with one person, maybenot the other family.
And so then there's an approach that's based off of that one family member.
So yeah, think that's what you're describing is what a really great therapist would do.
Yeah, and I really love hearing what you added to that because there's like the nuance andcomplexity of it.
(11:00):
And there's also what's coming up for me is like kind of an invitation for folks to goslow and to examine their own expectations within their family and how
how their expectations might fit or not fit the actual people that they're in a familyrelationship with.
(11:20):
And I feel like that's another big part of doing the work of, like when you choose topursue an estrangement, there's work that you're gonna do on your end to grieve the loss
of the idealized family that you might have wanted.
And of course, that's gonna be deep.
There's gonna be a lot of.
(11:41):
there can be a lot of pain there.
But it's also important to recognize some of the expectations that we might have grown upthinking that a family should be or is or thinking that our family should provide for us.
When our family is made up and oftentimes for communities of color, it's like they're madeup of people who have had to navigate cis hetero patriarchy for a long time, had to
(12:07):
navigate racism, had to navigate power.
poverty have had to navigate real circumstances.
And those circumstances have created trauma that have altered the foundation of what ahealthy family could be for a community of color.
So I really appreciate that framing of checking expectations, slowing down to see whatbehaviors or what things are tolerable and what things are
(12:38):
like really obliterating non-negotiables that would warrant you to no longer be in contactwith them.
And so I think, yeah, physical abuse, any kind of like ongoing verbal abuse, likeabsolutely cut that out.
But if there's any room for gray area, it might be worth kind of slowing down to examinewhat a functional relationship could look like.
(13:01):
Knowing that that person probably is gonna change a whole lot.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ooh, that's something else.
I like how you're discussing that there's some grief that is involved in this kind ofwork.
And I think sometimes we don't really allow space for a person to consider what that mightlook like and if they're ready for that and what kind of things might support them in
(13:29):
their grief.
I'm also curious about how does a person handle the guilt or pressure when people aroundthem might say things like, but that's your mom.
or you have to forgive them, you shouldn't be the bigger person.
How do you navigate what other people have to say about your family dynamic?
(13:49):
yeah, I love this question.
Especially this idea that like the person going no contact, that there's some measure ofemotional immaturity.
I would say that the experience of going no contact is devastating.
Yes.
Deeply devastating.
And if you're
someone who is holding space for a friend or a loved one that's going through thisprocess, the best thing you can do is just to listen as non-judgmentally as you can.
(14:22):
I think that, yeah, this idea that you have to be the bigger person, I think my personalorientation is to think about the nature of a parent-child relationship and to understand
that like,
Parents hold a lot of responsibility in bringing a child into the world.
Talk about it.
You know, I'm just of the personal belief that it is never the child's responsibility tomake amends or to take care of or to be responsible for their parent.
(14:56):
And that's a challenging one, particularly because we're bringing, like for me, it's likebringing in that language of consent.
Yeah.
You it is not a non-consensual arrangement here.
You are drawing them in.
They're very vulnerable and you're responsible for them for the early years and onwardinto their adult life.
(15:21):
even that early childhood relationship into adult years doesn't end.
You never stop being someone's parent.
And I also think about, this is like such a, I don't know, such a big topic in the senseof...
especially when we're talking about people of color and the respect dynamic with theelders, right?
And so even though you might both be adults, even though you're the child at some point,you might be an adult now, there's still this power, right, with an elder and this belief
(15:52):
around how you're supposed to conduct yourself, talk to, protect the emotional wellbeingof.
the elder, you know, at your cost, right?
At the cost of your mental health, the cost of your safety, your felt sense of safety.
And so there's, it's very deeply entrenched in a number of cultures.
(16:16):
And so even navigating that dynamic is extremely challenging.
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's
As you're pointing that out, I'm thinking about like how many people are bristling at theidea that like children don't owe adults anything.
Correct.
And that, you know, I was, I'm with you, I was raised in a black household.
(16:39):
You do not talk back to your elders.
You, you show the utmost respect.
And I feel like that comes on the heels of elders being in a position in their eldershipwhere they are, they're trying to model
the kind of relationship that they wanna have with their children.
And I was struck by a friend of mine, we were talking about this topic a few weeks ago,and she had shared that she felt like she grew up and never saw a real life healthy
(17:13):
dynamic of a black family.
And you know, even that's like a very layered- Correct.
That's very layered, very, you know, I even feel very telling.
I don't know if I'm going to get in trouble for saying this.
I don't know if you're listening.
Isn't that part of the belief, right?
That we're not allowed to talk about these things.
(17:36):
Yeah.
And there's a lot of colonial paradigms that, you know, some of these elders have.
And so what they're wanting us to emulate is not what would have been our original familystructure, but really this
colonial family structure that did allow people to survive.
(17:57):
I get why they have learned to be that way, because it allowed them to survive.
So that's the context.
But we're now in a different kind of season and time where those things that allowed ourprevious ancestors to survive, they're no longer serving us.
It's a really tough thing to navigate, but I believe in telling the truth.
(18:18):
And the truth is, there is a lot of family dysfunction.
Yeah, and it's such a heavy, I mean, part of the grief is that, recognizing that maybeeven for parents who are navigating estrangement, there's just the grief of recognizing
that you're not quite the parent that you had hoped you would be, or that veneer doesn'treally hold up despite all that you put in to care for this person.
(18:48):
That is heavy.
It is.
I was doing some self touch.
Okay.
was just nice.
said, we going there.
Yeah, I know.
I just, I just felt my stomach drop.
I'm like, Ooh, let's get low to the ground.
Everybody.
(19:08):
Holidays can be really tough in general with being around a lot of families, theexpectation of trying to make it feel magical and special and the cost.
What are some ways to protect one's peace during all the festive chaos?
Yeah, I also really love this question.
So if you're queer, I feel like there's a lot of magic in creating your own celebrationsand holidays throughout the year that are
(19:38):
divorced from these kind of mega conglomerate holidays that kind of push this narrative offamily togetherness and can feel really isolating.
So I would highly suggest or encourage people to explore what things they can start tocreate a celebration around in your own life that is a reason to bring people together and
(20:05):
to feel special.
And then as far as like other ways to protect your peace, taking a lot of distance frommaybe the typical spaces that you would go during the holidays if you can.
I also think that if you're spending time around family, if there's a way to like kind offind breaks or find outs or.
(20:34):
find a different place to stay, stay in the Airbnb or stay with a friend, a family friendor someone if you can, that's not directly staying in your home.
Yeah, this is like a whole other thing, but I think about implicit memory and it can bereally hard to be in alignment with who you are in your regular life when you're brought
(20:56):
back into the current of the life that you lived with your family.
Yeah.
There's a lot of grace there if you show up around your family dinners and you're like,suddenly I told myself I was not going to get in the shouting match and here we are.
Hello.
Yes, it activates like this younger, less evolved version of us that we thought we hadparted from.
(21:21):
And then a lot of times we end up being surprised.
But you're right.
It's being in that environment.
It's being around people who know our soft spot.
They know the things that might be really activating for us.
And they know how to poke those buttons.
And so I love this idea of thinking about ways to kind of shield yourself going into it sothat you have it out, another place to stay.
(21:48):
I love also encouraging clients to maybe even have a, if they can have a partner that isthere, someone that can help them to take a break if they need it.
you know, like a space in the home that they could go to and have so quiet or to be ableto say, need to take this call for work and be able to get in my car if they need to.
But being able to have it out is so important, especially if there's been some trauma andin that home or with those folks and knowing that you could feel really activated.
(22:19):
But what is a way that I can kind of take care of myself while I'm in this environment?
Exactly.
And really prioritizing that, because I imagine if you are someone who's navigating thewaters of family estrangement, you're also doing some kind of healing work.
so just protecting, remember, like, it's OK for you to protect your soft spots.
(22:40):
It's OK for you to find ways to create distance, because maybe the outcome there is likejust to make it through without maybe the same old cycles or patterns.
repeating themselves.
And it doesn't need to be magical.
It doesn't need to be special.
But it's like maybe just about for you showing up and honoring your family in whatever waythat makes sense to you and choosing to kind of step back when you need to.
(23:12):
direction.
Let's say there's someone that you had for reasons, where a strange from, and it's been awhile and maybe you're starting to kind of really miss that family member or starting to
think is it time for me to reconsider and maybe maybe I can try to repair therelationship.
(23:35):
What are some things we might consider for thinking about trying to reach back out to afamily member we haven't
spoken to in a while.
Yeah, I think I'm balancing experiences that people have shared with me and then like justa personal experience.
have a sister that I've been estranged from for about five years and had a baby and waskind of like, maybe this is the time.
(24:06):
And I would say that
just based off of my own experience, some of the things that I've heard from other folksis, I think the key thread through this call, I feel like has been looking at expectations
and just understanding that like, there's still gonna be a ripple effect from the choiceto go no contact or to pull back from your family.
(24:30):
I am all about balancing hope with like a spoonful of
more than a spoonful of reality.
And so I think, you you can maybe feel into the places where the relationship might beable to shift and also just be ready for it to be the same or if not, like maybe a little
(24:55):
less than what you're hoping for.
I think that it can be really tough because a lot of times people, family members mightnot fully understand or know why you make the decisions that you make.
And in truth, just thinking from like a nervous system perspective, I think it's hard forpeople to even be able to have the conversations about the things to like get to the place
(25:17):
where healing could happen.
And that's not to say like, I mean, I've heard stories too of people finding a way throughand establishing new relationships that feel like there's more space for understanding.
But initially I would say if you go back and you wanna try to contact them,
lean into your gut and your discernment and then also know that if it doesn't work out,you can also reverse that decision too and decide to go no contact again.
(25:44):
Or it doesn't have to stay stuck and you're welcome to think that there's a lot offlexibility around that.
And if it's not feeling like.
you made the right decision.
It's like reaching out to like an ex boyfriend.
You're like, Here's all the things.
This is why.
(26:05):
And maybe something shift and you're like, you know what?
You were actually a cool person and we can vibe.
like, you know, I think you're exactly right.
What kind of work has happened in between the time with me, with that person has anythingbeen resolved?
Or, you know, I don't know, there's so much to consider, but that grieving is hard.
(26:28):
It's really hard to not be in contact with people we're really accustomed to, whether itwas a healthy relationship or not.
And likely it was not a healthy relationship.
We'll still miss aspects of that.
And I like the idea that, you know, because you change your mind doesn't mean you can'tchange it again.
If you find out that, ooh, wow, this is still a really bad situation for me.
(26:53):
And I also like doing it in stages.
So if that looks like maybe I start to send them a birthday card again, or maybe I willsend them an email to check in, you know, like doing kind of little stages of maybe
reacquainting, like putting your toes in the water to see like, is the response healthyand appropriate?
(27:17):
Is it not?
Does it feel good to interact with this person?
feeling really anxious and then kind of navigating from there.
Yeah, I mean, I think those are all really great ways to test the waters and therelationship doesn't need to think it's maybe coming to terms with like the desire for
(27:38):
that closeness and that relationship, whoever you're reaching out to may not have thecloseness that we're hoping for that like.
is the ideal within a family system, but there can be some very low stakes way ofmaintaining some kind of relationship.
(28:00):
I know for me personally, to share a little bit more about the experience I had contactingmy sister, we're two very different people, but there's kind of the connection of staying
engaged with my niece who's her daughter.
that feels like a way through where we don't necessarily have to be in relationship witheach other and talk about all the stuff that's hard about our family or about our
(28:27):
relationship.
And I think she feels appreciative of the relationship that I'm trying to forge with herdaughter.
So it's kind of like a silent, you know, it's like that silent head nod.
It's like.
Okay, all right, we're not gonna go there.
We can't talk about it, but I see what you're trying to do and I'm just gonna lose facefor it.
(28:49):
I think all those ways of, all the ways that you named could be really good kind of entryways to building a relationship that's really just neutral.
So I'm curious, I'm always curious, because I'm nosy.
like to know all things.
(29:09):
Are there any other nuggets of wisdom or tips you can share for those navigating thetricky waters of family estrangement?
Yeah, I was thinking about the question around holidays and holiday times.
And a number of folks I work with have the experience where oftentimes people in estranged
(29:30):
in situations of estrangement can feel like, you know, maybe it's taking time for them tobuild up their personal relationships or friendships can feel kind of dicey or insecure at
times.
So when it comes to the holidays, one of the things that I suggest to the people that Isupport is lean into volunteering.
(29:53):
Yeah, could be.
Just another way to be around people and kind of have this semblance of like community, afeel of people coming together for something larger that doesn't have all the same like
kind of twinges as like a family event does.
And I think that can be a really great way to meet like-minded people who are just kind oforiented to community and oriented to supporting other folks.
(30:24):
to know more about the reishi somatics and the haikomi and co-regulating touch for trauma.
Yeah.
So reishi somatics is the name of my practice in Portland, Oregon, named after reishimushrooms, are just, they're an incredible being of like, like they impart so much
(30:47):
longevity to people.
Okay.
So you can take reishi mushrooms and tinctures or teas.
And in Chinese medicine, that's been one of the mushrooms that's really about preservingwhole body, whole being health.
It's also, I have an ongoing Dungeons and Dragons campaign with my partner and his son andour daughter.
(31:14):
And Rishi is also the name of my character.
So I was like, you know, I'm just gonna go with this for my redness.
Have you seen the therapists that do like D &D therapy groups?
Yes.
Yeah, I have a good friend that does some of those.
I'm not I'm like kind of new to the D &D world.
(31:34):
They kind of pulled me into it.
And I was like, OK, I I could get down with this.
Let me just like scheme up who I want to be, which is like a traveling healer that'sobsessed with mushrooms and also makes music.
cool.
There's so much in the D &D character.
that is parts of us or parts of us we would like there to be.
(31:56):
So there's just so much there, I think.
Yeah.
So as far as the other stuff, hikomi is another type of somatic therapy approach.
It's not so centered around trauma, but it is centered around mindful awareness and usingmindful awareness in the safe space of a therapy room to work through difficult past
(32:20):
experiences.
So I've been studying that for about like eight years now.
Wow.
And then co-regulating touch.
I took a training this past year with Cathy Kane and was just blown away because as we'removing into more of like a digital fast paced lifestyle and a lot of the people that I
(32:41):
work with that are navigating estrangement have the experience where they're like, I havebeen in therapy for years.
I've gone to every kind of therapist.
I've done CBT, DBT and nothing works.
And it's wild to me that, you you can offer someone a hand placed on their kidneys or youcan offer someone a hand placed, you know, at the back of their neck on the brainstem.
(33:06):
And the body is like, we know what to do.
So touch is very powerful.
And there's a deep, you know, there's like, I just think of,
Yeah, I can't help but think of images of going to church and kind of seeing that visualof like people laying hands on.
That might not be the exact same thing that's happening.
(33:29):
But it is a similar thing, right?
And it speaks to some of the like cultural indigenous practices that we have had and maybenot always knowing the impact of it or the meaning behind it.
and being told by colonial people that like, that's the devil.
And so yeah, we have, we've not always known the history or valued some of those practicesthat are just really healing, like being in a church and praise dancing, that repetitive
(34:00):
movement or even the clapping.
So yeah, absolutely.
I could totally see that visual.
Yeah.
I mean, even Hakomi and somatic experiencing, come from
Indigenous traditions.
Thank you for sharing that because I know that you do a lot of decolonizing therapy workand I just think it's really important work and not a lot of folks are engaged in it or
(34:27):
have heard much about it.
So I just wanted to be able to share a little bit more with listeners about that.
Yeah, yeah, I'm really happy to talk about it.
feel like, you know, I'm sure you can relate to this too as someone who's studying thesepractices and starting to bring them into work with your clients.
It's like,
We're kind of just going in and getting the medicine and then bringing it back to thepeople that actually need it.
(34:52):
Yeah.
It's wild.
Well, and how much it has been gate kept.
Any final thoughts that you want to share with the, for the good of the group?
I think I just wanted to speak to anyone who is navigating estrangement, encourage peopleto lean into the practice of grief.
(35:19):
And I say the practice of it because it's more than just kind of feeling the heaviness ofit.
The practice of grief also includes leaning into and making space for the practice of joy.
Yes.
And the more that we can do that in small pieces and over however much time it takes you,there's no rush for your healing.
(35:44):
The more that you might find there's really valuable gifts on the other side of making thechoice that you make to pull back from your family.
I saw this meme on, it wasn't a meme, it was like a reel that someone had posted onInstagram and it was talking about how
you know, the people who have to walk this path are some of the most blessed and cared forpeople by spirit, because it really challenges your ability to walk through the world
(36:17):
holding truth in the face of like a community of people who might not be able to see that.
And that's really powerful, deeply powerful.
It is.
think grief puts things in perspective in a different kind of way.
Listen to my voice.
It's even just lowering thinking about it.
mean, it kind of helps us to think about how do we want to spend our time?
(36:42):
How do we want to show up?
It just puts it all into a lot of perspective.
And actually, when it comes to family estrangement, that is one of the things I'll talk toclients about.
If this person were to pass and you weren't talking to them, would that impact you?
Not what it impact to you, but are you comfortable with that?
(37:02):
So on a personal note for myself, I was estranged from my mother and she did pass.
I was, I'm still comfortable with the decision that I made at the time to be estrangedfrom her, but it is something that people need to think about, you know, because at any
(37:24):
moment something happened to anyone.
And so it's a consideration.
so I appreciate you bringing that up, because as we're talking about living in a way thathonors your needs, where you're not being harmed by people, thinking about grief is, I
think, certainly a really important part of it that sometimes we don't really talk about.
(37:46):
As therapists, as people in general, we live in a society where we don't really liketalking about grief or death.
Yeah, especially now is like we're going through so much.
There's so much to grieve on a daily basis.
I mean, I think there's so much power in it.
And I really appreciate hearing your perspective on it too, and your experience.
(38:10):
It's powerful.
So Madeline, can you tell us how someone could connect with you if they want to be able tobe lucky enough to do some work with you?
Yeah, if you're local in Portland, Oregon, you can connect with me through PsychologyToday.
(38:37):
And I also have a website and an Instagram account for Race She Somatics.
If you're not local to Oregon and want to just follow
you know, things I'm interested in thinking about blog posts, that kind of stuff, whichyou I think will be linked in the show notes.
Thank you so much.
(39:13):
So for our cozy booknug, there's three books that I recommend.
The first is Mother Hunger, How Adult Daughters Can Understand and Heal from Lost Nurture,Its Protection and Guidance.
That book is by Kelly McDaniel.
In this book, there's some practical steps and strategies for really healing trauma orpain that was caused by experiences with a maternal figure.
(39:41):
So, Mother Hunger.
The second book is Children of the Self-Absorbed, A Grown-Up's Guide to Getting OverNarcissistic Parents, and that's by Nina W.
Brown.
There's a few versions of this book.
I think we're in the third revision, so I'd recommend that one.
Now again, we're not diagnosing our loved ones or our parents, but if you have some prettyself-absorbed parents,
(40:07):
and you need some support in navigating them, this book really talks about the patternsand behaviors of narcissistic parents.
I think this is really helpful for some people because sometimes they think about it as,it just me?
Am I overreacting?
This parent has provided shelter for me over the years.
(40:28):
This parent has supported me on and off.
And while those things might feel like the bare minimum, and in some cases they were,
Those are the things your parents were legally required to do.
It's helpful to know what some of the patterns really are that are harmful.
And then for you to have the tools to see how do I want to navigate this, having some ofthe language I didn't have before, knowing a little bit more than I knew before.
(40:54):
The third book that I really recommend is called Drama Free, A Guide to Managing UnhealthyFamily Relationships.
And that's by Nedra Glover-Twaab.
I've recommended her set boundaries fine piecebook in the past, which is also an excellentresource.
But this one is different in that it's a toolkit.
So how to navigate these family challenges or the drama.
(41:17):
What are some actionable steps that I can use to create distance if I'm going to be aroundthem so that I can be healthy and cope.
One of the things we talked about in our interview today with Madeline
was the guilt that arises as we start to think about family estrangement, as we start tothink about going no contact.
And so this book gives some tools on how to navigate some of that guilt that might emerge.
(41:42):
And then also really, how do you foster self-care in the midst of some challenges?
Even in a very healthy family, there's drama that happens or things that come up.
And so while these tools are more guide towards unhealthy family relationships.
Another incredible resource I highly recommend.
(42:10):
Are you enjoying the show?
Subscribe and review to let us know what you think and share this episode with a friend inyour favorite podcast app.
Thanks so much for listening to Embodent with Jessica.
If you want to keep up with us, follow Embodent with Jessica on Instagram.
Until next time.
you
Welcome to the show in Emboldened with Jessica.
I'm Jessica, a mental health professional.
And today we're going to be talking about family estrangement.
This time of year, there's so many folks who are navigating anxiety or apprehension aboutbeing around family members who have no chill, who feel the need to say comments about our
(00:33):
bodies, comments about who we love, comments about how we live our life.
And sometimes it goes deeper than that in the sense that perhaps these family members havebeen harmful all of our lives, really harmful in a way that impacts our mental health, in
a way that has caused us trauma that maybe we're still navigating or working to heal from.
(00:58):
And so the holidays can be a beautiful, wondrous time and they also can have theirchallenges.
And for those who are challenged,
about being around family or perhaps the family of your partner, today we're gonna reallytalk about ways to support yourself and some topics that come up quite a bit when we think
about family estrangement.
(01:26):
All right, welcome.
So we're really fortunate today.
We have a special guest.
We have an expert that's gonna be talking to us a little bit about family estrangement.
So Madeline, thank you for joining us.
Yeah, I'm so glad to be here.
So Madeline Moore, they, them pronouns, is an Afro-eclectic queer cosmic fairy that masksas a therapist and holds a license as an LCSW trained in yoga therapy.
(01:55):
Somatic Experiencing, EMDR, Hakomi and Co-regulating Touch for Trauma.
They also run a body in ecology-oriented practice, Reishi Somatics, based out of Portland,Oregon.
Their personal mission is to uplift Black, queer, and trans folks, hello, to live in theirtruth and their innate joy and power.
(02:17):
Thank you, Madeline, for joining us.
Yeah, I'm so glad to be here.
We have all kinds of questions.
I mean, when we're talking about family estrangement, this comes up a lot, especiallyaround the holidays or times when folks might have to travel and be around, they knew that
might be a little bit difficult for them to navigate.
(02:39):
In your experience as a therapist, what are some of the biggest reasons families end up inconflict?
Well, so I'll just give the context of the type of people that I support.
And most of the people I support, identify as either Black or Indigenous, or they identifyas a person of color.
(03:02):
And they might also hold the experience of being queer, being trans, being non-binary.
And so often what I see is people are strange because there's not a whole lot ofunderstanding about the intersection of.
both of those experiences.
I would also say that I've seen estrangement happen because of misunderstandings in termsof like value systems.
(03:31):
I've seen estrangement happen because of difficulty blending families.
I've seen estrangements happen because there's maybe an ongoing conflict or some embeddedfamily trauma that makes it challenging for
those folks in conflict to see or understand where each other are coming from.
(03:54):
yeah, there's, think a lot of common patterns are feeling of not being understood infamilies, feeling like attacked by family members can be another experience that happens
when someone decides to make the decision to become estranged.
And I would say it's not even really a decision that someone makes.
(04:15):
Usually most of the people I work with have
tried and tried to bridge the gap.
So it's not really a choice.
It's a non-choice.
It's like you're back in the corner and that's the thing that is the most, that's the onlyway through to kind of keep your sense of self and your peace intact.
Yeah, I think that's a really critical point that folks who might be estranged fromfamily, they have tried everything else, right?
(04:40):
They've tried the different tools, the gray rocking, they've tried setting boundaries andthose boundaries weren't honored.
They've tried to educate family members.
And so it's kind of a last resort almost.
And I've seen estrangements will play out in all different kinds of way depending on therelationships and the context.
And so I've often seen in some of the people that I support that estrangement is like evenwhen folks are making the decision to be estranged or they're having like a limited
(05:12):
contact relationship.
the harm is still occurring in whatever way that it might show up.
But oftentimes the person who is estranged is just finding a different way to metabolizethat harm.
Correct.
Yeah.
Which isn't great, but it makes a lot of sense when we start to better understand that wedon't always know someone else's dynamic.
(05:36):
Yes, yes.
Unless we're in it ourselves, we can't really know.
how it feels to be in that particular dynamic.
And so I have a lot of compassion for people who have to make that decision to back awayfrom family.
And even sometimes family who were in that dynamic, let's say they're siblings or they'resomehow related and they've seen some of the dysfunction, they might still choose a
(06:02):
different way of being.
And so sometimes even they won't understand.
curious about when we hear someone talking about going no contact with a family, breakdown what that actually looks like in real life.
What is the term estrangement?
What does the term no contact mean for those that maybe are a little bit less familiarwith it?
(06:25):
Yeah, so estrangement is the process of deciding to separate from
your family of origin, whether that's from your entire family or from a parent or parentsor siblings, it's deciding that the relationship is no longer healthy and beneficial.
And you are choosing to kind of cut your losses and just live your life as a separate solobeing entity.
(06:54):
And a lot of times going no contact can look
various ways.
I've had people who just kind of silently phase out and their family members might, youknow, really wonder or question.
For example, I have a number of folks who are Black or people of color that have beenadopted by white families.
(07:15):
And it's really complicated and complex for them to try and understand or explain racismthat they experience.
especially in light of 2020 and when these conversations have kind of come more into theforeground.
So in those instances, I've supported a few people who I don't think would mind me sharingthat they just decided to kind of like ghost.
(07:40):
It's like too big of a conversation.
Yeah, like the avenues aren't there.
And you know, you're going to be damned if you do damned if you don't.
So right.
The best way to deal with that is like, you know, I'm just gonna like silently move out ofstate and live my life.
And maybe I will contact you when a holiday rolls around, but I might not.
(08:03):
And then I've also seen no contacts happen where there's more of a formal conversation.
Maybe there's been a bid to go to therapy.
Maybe there's been kind of pulling in of other family members to try and support.
And it comes to the point where someone just makes a formal
announcement to the family that I'm no longer wanting to be part of this.
(08:25):
Yeah, and don't think either outcome is easy, but it exists across the spectrum.
And if you're someone who is feeling like you're playing with the idea of a strange man orfeeling more and more like that might be the best thing for keeping your peace and
maintaining your sanity, you can have it look any way that really feels best for you.
(08:55):
I'm curious also if we were to go back a step and think about before it gets to the pointof family estrangement, when there's this reoccurring kind of family conflict that just
never seems to get resolved, like when we're communicating our needs, it's not beingheard.
What are some practical steps that you advise the folks that you work with to take to kindof break that cycle of hurt?
(09:22):
Yeah.
What's coming up for me is to think about like, there's like a part of me that wants tojump in and be like, here's the things you can do.
And then there's the other part of me that's like, everyone's context is so different.
So I'm just kind of holding both of those experiences, but like I can give some practicalsteps and also like they may not fit for the listener's context and that's okay too.
(09:46):
And if it doesn't fit, that doesn't mean that, you know.
That means that there's a different way, a different map that you might use to moveforward.
You know, I think that that's brilliant, right?
So when it's a really great therapist, there's no one size fit all kind of approach.
It's really exploring what does that person, what is the individual you're working with oryou're working alongside, what is it that they're hoping to have happen?
(10:12):
What is their, you know, what are their goals?
And then kind of working together and
some different tools based off of what their desired outcome really is.
Because for some people, it's, I'm already tired and exhausted.
I don't have the energy to even get out of bed, let alone try to map out how to improvethis relationship.
(10:33):
And it's fair and valid.
And for some people, the relationship really, really matters, maybe with one person, maybenot the other family.
And so then there's an approach that's based off of that one family member.
So yeah, think that's what you're describing is what a really great therapist would do.
Yeah, and I really love hearing what you added to that because there's like the nuance andcomplexity of it.
(11:00):
And there's also what's coming up for me is like kind of an invitation for folks to goslow and to examine their own expectations within their family and how
how their expectations might fit or not fit the actual people that they're in a familyrelationship with.
(11:20):
And I feel like that's another big part of doing the work of, like when you choose topursue an estrangement, there's work that you're gonna do on your end to grieve the loss
of the idealized family that you might have wanted.
And of course, that's gonna be deep.
There's gonna be a lot of.
(11:41):
there can be a lot of pain there.
But it's also important to recognize some of the expectations that we might have grown upthinking that a family should be or is or thinking that our family should provide for us.
When our family is made up and oftentimes for communities of color, it's like they're madeup of people who have had to navigate cis hetero patriarchy for a long time, had to
(12:07):
navigate racism, had to navigate power.
poverty have had to navigate real circumstances.
And those circumstances have created trauma that have altered the foundation of what ahealthy family could be for a community of color.
So I really appreciate that framing of checking expectations, slowing down to see whatbehaviors or what things are tolerable and what things are
(12:38):
like really obliterating non-negotiables that would warrant you to no longer be in contactwith them.
And so I think, yeah, physical abuse, any kind of like ongoing verbal abuse, likeabsolutely cut that out.
But if there's any room for gray area, it might be worth kind of slowing down to examinewhat a functional relationship could look like.
(13:01):
Knowing that that person probably is gonna change a whole lot.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ooh, that's something else.
I like how you're discussing that there's some grief that is involved in this kind ofwork.
And I think sometimes we don't really allow space for a person to consider what that mightlook like and if they're ready for that and what kind of things might support them in
(13:29):
their grief.
I'm also curious about how does a person handle the guilt or pressure when people aroundthem might say things like, but that's your mom.
or you have to forgive them, you shouldn't be the bigger person.
How do you navigate what other people have to say about your family dynamic?
(13:49):
yeah, I love this question.
Especially this idea that like the person going no contact, that there's some measure ofemotional immaturity.
I would say that the experience of going no contact is devastating.
Yes.
Deeply devastating.
And if you're
someone who is holding space for a friend or a loved one that's going through thisprocess, the best thing you can do is just to listen as non-judgmentally as you can.
(14:22):
I think that, yeah, this idea that you have to be the bigger person, I think my personalorientation is to think about the nature of a parent-child relationship and to understand
that like,
Parents hold a lot of responsibility in bringing a child into the world.
Talk about it.
You know, I'm just of the personal belief that it is never the child's responsibility tomake amends or to take care of or to be responsible for their parent.
(14:56):
And that's a challenging one, particularly because we're bringing, like for me, it's likebringing in that language of consent.
Yeah.
You it is not a non-consensual arrangement here.
You are drawing them in.
They're very vulnerable and you're responsible for them for the early years and onwardinto their adult life.
(15:21):
even that early childhood relationship into adult years doesn't end.
You never stop being someone's parent.
And I also think about, this is like such a, I don't know, such a big topic in the senseof...
especially when we're talking about people of color and the respect dynamic with theelders, right?
And so even though you might both be adults, even though you're the child at some point,you might be an adult now, there's still this power, right, with an elder and this belief
(15:52):
around how you're supposed to conduct yourself, talk to, protect the emotional wellbeingof.
the elder, you know, at your cost, right?
At the cost of your mental health, the cost of your safety, your felt sense of safety.
And so there's, it's very deeply entrenched in a number of cultures.
(16:16):
And so even navigating that dynamic is extremely challenging.
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's
As you're pointing that out, I'm thinking about like how many people are bristling at theidea that like children don't owe adults anything.
Correct.
And that, you know, I was, I'm with you, I was raised in a black household.
(16:39):
You do not talk back to your elders.
You, you show the utmost respect.
And I feel like that comes on the heels of elders being in a position in their eldershipwhere they are, they're trying to model
the kind of relationship that they wanna have with their children.
And I was struck by a friend of mine, we were talking about this topic a few weeks ago,and she had shared that she felt like she grew up and never saw a real life healthy
(17:13):
dynamic of a black family.
And you know, even that's like a very layered- Correct.
That's very layered, very, you know, I even feel very telling.
I don't know if I'm going to get in trouble for saying this.
I don't know if you're listening.
Isn't that part of the belief, right?
That we're not allowed to talk about these things.
(17:36):
Yeah.
And there's a lot of colonial paradigms that, you know, some of these elders have.
And so what they're wanting us to emulate is not what would have been our original familystructure, but really this
colonial family structure that did allow people to survive.
(17:57):
I get why they have learned to be that way, because it allowed them to survive.
So that's the context.
But we're now in a different kind of season and time where those things that allowed ourprevious ancestors to survive, they're no longer serving us.
It's a really tough thing to navigate, but I believe in telling the truth.
(18:18):
And the truth is, there is a lot of family dysfunction.
Yeah, and it's such a heavy, I mean, part of the grief is that, recognizing that maybeeven for parents who are navigating estrangement, there's just the grief of recognizing
that you're not quite the parent that you had hoped you would be, or that veneer doesn'treally hold up despite all that you put in to care for this person.
(18:48):
That is heavy.
It is.
I was doing some self touch.
Okay.
was just nice.
said, we going there.
Yeah, I know.
I just, I just felt my stomach drop.
I'm like, Ooh, let's get low to the ground.
Everybody.
(19:08):
Holidays can be really tough in general with being around a lot of families, theexpectation of trying to make it feel magical and special and the cost.
What are some ways to protect one's peace during all the festive chaos?
Yeah, I also really love this question.
So if you're queer, I feel like there's a lot of magic in creating your own celebrationsand holidays throughout the year that are
(19:38):
divorced from these kind of mega conglomerate holidays that kind of push this narrative offamily togetherness and can feel really isolating.
So I would highly suggest or encourage people to explore what things they can start tocreate a celebration around in your own life that is a reason to bring people together and
(20:05):
to feel special.
And then as far as like other ways to protect your peace, taking a lot of distance frommaybe the typical spaces that you would go during the holidays if you can.
I also think that if you're spending time around family, if there's a way to like kind offind breaks or find outs or.
(20:34):
find a different place to stay, stay in the Airbnb or stay with a friend, a family friendor someone if you can, that's not directly staying in your home.
Yeah, this is like a whole other thing, but I think about implicit memory and it can bereally hard to be in alignment with who you are in your regular life when you're brought
(20:56):
back into the current of the life that you lived with your family.
Yeah.
There's a lot of grace there if you show up around your family dinners and you're like,suddenly I told myself I was not going to get in the shouting match and here we are.
Hello.
Yes, it activates like this younger, less evolved version of us that we thought we hadparted from.
(21:21):
And then a lot of times we end up being surprised.
But you're right.
It's being in that environment.
It's being around people who know our soft spot.
They know the things that might be really activating for us.
And they know how to poke those buttons.
And so I love this idea of thinking about ways to kind of shield yourself going into it sothat you have it out, another place to stay.
(21:48):
I love also encouraging clients to maybe even have a, if they can have a partner that isthere, someone that can help them to take a break if they need it.
you know, like a space in the home that they could go to and have so quiet or to be ableto say, need to take this call for work and be able to get in my car if they need to.
But being able to have it out is so important, especially if there's been some trauma andin that home or with those folks and knowing that you could feel really activated.
(22:19):
But what is a way that I can kind of take care of myself while I'm in this environment?
Exactly.
And really prioritizing that, because I imagine if you are someone who's navigating thewaters of family estrangement, you're also doing some kind of healing work.
so just protecting, remember, like, it's OK for you to protect your soft spots.
(22:40):
It's OK for you to find ways to create distance, because maybe the outcome there is likejust to make it through without maybe the same old cycles or patterns.
repeating themselves.
And it doesn't need to be magical.
It doesn't need to be special.
But it's like maybe just about for you showing up and honoring your family in whatever waythat makes sense to you and choosing to kind of step back when you need to.
(23:12):
direction.
Let's say there's someone that you had for reasons, where a strange from, and it's been awhile and maybe you're starting to kind of really miss that family member or starting to
think is it time for me to reconsider and maybe maybe I can try to repair therelationship.
(23:35):
What are some things we might consider for thinking about trying to reach back out to afamily member we haven't
spoken to in a while.
Yeah, I think I'm balancing experiences that people have shared with me and then like justa personal experience.
have a sister that I've been estranged from for about five years and had a baby and waskind of like, maybe this is the time.
(24:06):
And I would say that
just based off of my own experience, some of the things that I've heard from other folksis, I think the key thread through this call, I feel like has been looking at expectations
and just understanding that like, there's still gonna be a ripple effect from the choiceto go no contact or to pull back from your family.
(24:30):
I am all about balancing hope with like a spoonful of
more than a spoonful of reality.
And so I think, you you can maybe feel into the places where the relationship might beable to shift and also just be ready for it to be the same or if not, like maybe a little
(24:55):
less than what you're hoping for.
I think that it can be really tough because a lot of times people, family members mightnot fully understand or know why you make the decisions that you make.
And in truth, just thinking from like a nervous system perspective, I think it's hard forpeople to even be able to have the conversations about the things to like get to the place
(25:17):
where healing could happen.
And that's not to say like, I mean, I've heard stories too of people finding a way throughand establishing new relationships that feel like there's more space for understanding.
But initially I would say if you go back and you wanna try to contact them,
lean into your gut and your discernment and then also know that if it doesn't work out,you can also reverse that decision too and decide to go no contact again.
(25:44):
Or it doesn't have to stay stuck and you're welcome to think that there's a lot offlexibility around that.
And if it's not feeling like.
you made the right decision.
It's like reaching out to like an ex boyfriend.
You're like, Here's all the things.
This is why.
(26:05):
And maybe something shift and you're like, you know what?
You were actually a cool person and we can vibe.
like, you know, I think you're exactly right.
What kind of work has happened in between the time with me, with that person has anythingbeen resolved?
Or, you know, I don't know, there's so much to consider, but that grieving is hard.
(26:28):
It's really hard to not be in contact with people we're really accustomed to, whether itwas a healthy relationship or not.
And likely it was not a healthy relationship.
We'll still miss aspects of that.
And I like the idea that, you know, because you change your mind doesn't mean you can'tchange it again.
If you find out that, ooh, wow, this is still a really bad situation for me.
(26:53):
And I also like doing it in stages.
So if that looks like maybe I start to send them a birthday card again, or maybe I willsend them an email to check in, you know, like doing kind of little stages of maybe
reacquainting, like putting your toes in the water to see like, is the response healthyand appropriate?
(27:17):
Is it not?
Does it feel good to interact with this person?
feeling really anxious and then kind of navigating from there.
Yeah, I mean, I think those are all really great ways to test the waters and therelationship doesn't need to think it's maybe coming to terms with like the desire for
(27:38):
that closeness and that relationship, whoever you're reaching out to may not have thecloseness that we're hoping for that like.
is the ideal within a family system, but there can be some very low stakes way ofmaintaining some kind of relationship.
(28:00):
I know for me personally, to share a little bit more about the experience I had contactingmy sister, we're two very different people, but there's kind of the connection of staying
engaged with my niece who's her daughter.
that feels like a way through where we don't necessarily have to be in relationship witheach other and talk about all the stuff that's hard about our family or about our
(28:27):
relationship.
And I think she feels appreciative of the relationship that I'm trying to forge with herdaughter.
So it's kind of like a silent, you know, it's like that silent head nod.
It's like.
Okay, all right, we're not gonna go there.
We can't talk about it, but I see what you're trying to do and I'm just gonna lose facefor it.
(28:49):
I think all those ways of, all the ways that you named could be really good kind of entryways to building a relationship that's really just neutral.
So I'm curious, I'm always curious, because I'm nosy.
like to know all things.
(29:09):
Are there any other nuggets of wisdom or tips you can share for those navigating thetricky waters of family estrangement?
Yeah, I was thinking about the question around holidays and holiday times.
And a number of folks I work with have the experience where oftentimes people in estranged
(29:30):
in situations of estrangement can feel like, you know, maybe it's taking time for them tobuild up their personal relationships or friendships can feel kind of dicey or insecure at
times.
So when it comes to the holidays, one of the things that I suggest to the people that Isupport is lean into volunteering.
(29:53):
Yeah, could be.
Just another way to be around people and kind of have this semblance of like community, afeel of people coming together for something larger that doesn't have all the same like
kind of twinges as like a family event does.
And I think that can be a really great way to meet like-minded people who are just kind oforiented to community and oriented to supporting other folks.
(30:24):
to know more about the reishi somatics and the haikomi and co-regulating touch for trauma.
Yeah.
So reishi somatics is the name of my practice in Portland, Oregon, named after reishimushrooms, are just, they're an incredible being of like, like they impart so much
(30:47):
longevity to people.
Okay.
So you can take reishi mushrooms and tinctures or teas.
And in Chinese medicine, that's been one of the mushrooms that's really about preservingwhole body, whole being health.
It's also, I have an ongoing Dungeons and Dragons campaign with my partner and his son andour daughter.
(31:14):
And Rishi is also the name of my character.
So I was like, you know, I'm just gonna go with this for my redness.
Have you seen the therapists that do like D &D therapy groups?
Yes.
Yeah, I have a good friend that does some of those.
I'm not I'm like kind of new to the D &D world.
(31:34):
They kind of pulled me into it.
And I was like, OK, I I could get down with this.
Let me just like scheme up who I want to be, which is like a traveling healer that'sobsessed with mushrooms and also makes music.
cool.
There's so much in the D &D character.
that is parts of us or parts of us we would like there to be.
(31:56):
So there's just so much there, I think.
Yeah.
So as far as the other stuff, hikomi is another type of somatic therapy approach.
It's not so centered around trauma, but it is centered around mindful awareness and usingmindful awareness in the safe space of a therapy room to work through difficult past
(32:20):
experiences.
So I've been studying that for about like eight years now.
Wow.
And then co-regulating touch.
I took a training this past year with Cathy Kane and was just blown away because as we'removing into more of like a digital fast paced lifestyle and a lot of the people that I
(32:41):
work with that are navigating estrangement have the experience where they're like, I havebeen in therapy for years.
I've gone to every kind of therapist.
I've done CBT, DBT and nothing works.
And it's wild to me that, you you can offer someone a hand placed on their kidneys or youcan offer someone a hand placed, you know, at the back of their neck on the brainstem.
(33:06):
And the body is like, we know what to do.
So touch is very powerful.
And there's a deep, you know, there's like, I just think of,
Yeah, I can't help but think of images of going to church and kind of seeing that visualof like people laying hands on.
That might not be the exact same thing that's happening.
(33:29):
But it is a similar thing, right?
And it speaks to some of the like cultural indigenous practices that we have had and maybenot always knowing the impact of it or the meaning behind it.
and being told by colonial people that like, that's the devil.
And so yeah, we have, we've not always known the history or valued some of those practicesthat are just really healing, like being in a church and praise dancing, that repetitive
(34:00):
movement or even the clapping.
So yeah, absolutely.
I could totally see that visual.
Yeah.
I mean, even Hakomi and somatic experiencing, come from
Indigenous traditions.
Thank you for sharing that because I know that you do a lot of decolonizing therapy workand I just think it's really important work and not a lot of folks are engaged in it or
(34:27):
have heard much about it.
So I just wanted to be able to share a little bit more with listeners about that.
Yeah, yeah, I'm really happy to talk about it.
feel like, you know, I'm sure you can relate to this too as someone who's studying thesepractices and starting to bring them into work with your clients.
It's like,
We're kind of just going in and getting the medicine and then bringing it back to thepeople that actually need it.
(34:52):
Yeah.
It's wild.
Well, and how much it has been gate kept.
Any final thoughts that you want to share with the, for the good of the group?
I think I just wanted to speak to anyone who is navigating estrangement, encourage peopleto lean into the practice of grief.
(35:19):
And I say the practice of it because it's more than just kind of feeling the heaviness ofit.
The practice of grief also includes leaning into and making space for the practice of joy.
Yes.
And the more that we can do that in small pieces and over however much time it takes you,there's no rush for your healing.
(35:44):
The more that you might find there's really valuable gifts on the other side of making thechoice that you make to pull back from your family.
I saw this meme on, it wasn't a meme, it was like a reel that someone had posted onInstagram and it was talking about how
you know, the people who have to walk this path are some of the most blessed and cared forpeople by spirit, because it really challenges your ability to walk through the world
(36:17):
holding truth in the face of like a community of people who might not be able to see that.
And that's really powerful, deeply powerful.
It is.
think grief puts things in perspective in a different kind of way.
Listen to my voice.
It's even just lowering thinking about it.
mean, it kind of helps us to think about how do we want to spend our time?
(36:42):
How do we want to show up?
It just puts it all into a lot of perspective.
And actually, when it comes to family estrangement, that is one of the things I'll talk toclients about.
If this person were to pass and you weren't talking to them, would that impact you?
Not what it impact to you, but are you comfortable with that?
(37:02):
So on a personal note for myself, I was estranged from my mother and she did pass.
I was, I'm still comfortable with the decision that I made at the time to be estrangedfrom her, but it is something that people need to think about, you know, because at any
(37:24):
moment something happened to anyone.
And so it's a consideration.
so I appreciate you bringing that up, because as we're talking about living in a way thathonors your needs, where you're not being harmed by people, thinking about grief is, I
think, certainly a really important part of it that sometimes we don't really talk about.
(37:46):
As therapists, as people in general, we live in a society where we don't really liketalking about grief or death.
Yeah, especially now is like we're going through so much.
There's so much to grieve on a daily basis.
I mean, I think there's so much power in it.
And I really appreciate hearing your perspective on it too, and your experience.
(38:10):
It's powerful.
So Madeline, can you tell us how someone could connect with you if they want to be able tobe lucky enough to do some work with you?
Yeah, if you're local in Portland, Oregon, you can connect with me through PsychologyToday.
(38:37):
And I also have a website and an Instagram account for Race She Somatics.
If you're not local to Oregon and want to just follow
you know, things I'm interested in thinking about blog posts, that kind of stuff, whichyou I think will be linked in the show notes.
Thank you so much.
(39:13):
So for our cozy booknug, there's three books that I recommend.
The first is Mother Hunger, How Adult Daughters Can Understand and Heal from Lost Nurture,Its Protection and Guidance.
That book is by Kelly McDaniel.
In this book, there's some practical steps and strategies for really healing trauma orpain that was caused by experiences with a maternal figure.
(39:41):
So, Mother Hunger.
The second book is Children of the Self-Absorbed, A Grown-Up's Guide to Getting OverNarcissistic Parents, and that's by Nina W.
Brown.
There's a few versions of this book.
I think we're in the third revision, so I'd recommend that one.
Now again, we're not diagnosing our loved ones or our parents, but if you have some prettyself-absorbed parents,
(40:07):
and you need some support in navigating them, this book really talks about the patternsand behaviors of narcissistic parents.
I think this is really helpful for some people because sometimes they think about it as,it just me?
Am I overreacting?
This parent has provided shelter for me over the years.
(40:28):
This parent has supported me on and off.
And while those things might feel like the bare minimum, and in some cases they were,
Those are the things your parents were legally required to do.
It's helpful to know what some of the patterns really are that are harmful.
And then for you to have the tools to see how do I want to navigate this, having some ofthe language I didn't have before, knowing a little bit more than I knew before.
(40:54):
The third book that I really recommend is called Drama Free, A Guide to Managing UnhealthyFamily Relationships.
And that's by Nedra Glover-Twaab.
I've recommended her set boundaries fine piecebook in the past, which is also an excellentresource.
But this one is different in that it's a toolkit.
So how to navigate these family challenges or the drama.
(41:17):
What are some actionable steps that I can use to create distance if I'm going to be aroundthem so that I can be healthy and cope.
One of the things we talked about in our interview today with Madeline
was the guilt that arises as we start to think about family estrangement, as we start tothink about going no contact.
And so this book gives some tools on how to navigate some of that guilt that might emerge.
(41:42):
And then also really, how do you foster self-care in the midst of some challenges?
Even in a very healthy family, there's drama that happens or things that come up.
And so while these tools are more guide towards unhealthy family relationships.
Another incredible resource I highly recommend.
(42:10):
Are you enjoying the show?
Subscribe and review to let us know what you think and share this episode with a friend inyour favorite podcast app.
Thanks so much for listening to Embodent with Jessica.
If you want to keep up with us, follow Embodent with Jessica on Instagram.
Until next time.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.