284: Breaking Through Burnout w/ Brendan Mahan

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Soft fascination is.

(00:02):
Like your mind is wandering,but not in an anxious way.
It's not like I'm panicking andjumping from one stressor to another.
Stressors might come up, butthey're not the dominant role.
Right?
So soft fascination is when we are feelingmore at ease, more kind of peaceful and
chill and balanced, like it's restorative.
It often happens when we're in nature.

(00:22):
And it's something thatwe don't get enough of.
It's restorative, it helpsrestore our attention.
It helps restore our focus.
It helps us to kind ofbalance our emotions.
Welcome to the EmbracingIntensity podcast.
I'll be sharing interviews and tips forgifted, creative, twice exceptional,
and outside the box thinkers whouse their fire in a positive way.

(00:46):
My name is Aurora Remember Holtzman.
After years of feeling too much, Ifinally realized that intensity is
the source of my greatest power.
Now, instead of beating myselfup about not measuring up to
my own self imposed standards.
I'm on a mission to help people embracetheir own intensity and befriend their
brains so they can share their giftswith the world through the Embracing

(01:10):
Intensity community, coaching, educationalassessment, and other tools to help you
use your fire without getting burned.
You can join us at embracingintensity.
com.

(01:36):
Hello.
I am super excited to welcomeBrendan Mahan back on the podcast.
He always brings such thoughtful,grounded insight, and this
conversation is no different.
We dive into burnout, softversus hard, fascination,
screen time, and so much more.
This episode veers a bit from myusual structured interview or guest

(01:59):
speaker call and that it's muchmore free flowing and I share more
personally myself in the process.
Before we jump in, I wanted toquickly introduce a couple of
helpful concepts that Brendantalks about during the episode.
The first being his wall of awful.
Which is a model that he created todescribe the emotional barrier that

(02:19):
builds up when we repeatedly strugglewith tasks, especially ones tied to shame
or failure, every time we fail or hitresistance, we add a brick in the wall
until it becomes so overwhelming thatclimbing over it feels nearly impossible.
You can find a fabulous two-partYouTube summary on how to A DHD
with Brendan and Jessica McCabe.

(02:41):
He also talks about the default modenetwork, which is the part of the brain
that kicks in when we're not activelyfocused, like when we're daydreaming
or just letting our minds wander.
It helps us process andintegrate experiences.
But for folks with A DHD, it can alsoget overactive and lead to things like
distraction, rumination, or mental noise.

(03:03):
Brendan talks about how tapping intoit intentionally through calming
activities he calls soft fascination,can actually help us rest and reset.
This conversation really helped me toreflect on what rest actually feels
like, and I hope it helps you too.
I am looking forward toour next guest speaker.
Call with author Carolyn j Sumlinon Collective Liberation on

(03:26):
Saturday May 3rd, come join us inthe embracing Intensity community.
Enjoy.
Hello.
It's great to have Brendan backto talk about a variety of things.
This one's gonna be a little bitdifferent format because it came
up in his A DHD essentials group.

(03:47):
We brought up.
He brought up something about hardfascination versus soft fascination,
which I'll have him explain in a second.
But it got us talking aboutrest that's actually restful.
And he suggested we get on a call andI realized all of this stuff is things
that I've been processing right nowand I would love to have a conversation
with someone who's processing alot of the same things right now.

(04:07):
So glad to have you back, Brendan.
Yeah, thank you for having me on.
So first to get started, what, oneof the things that triggered that was
that you have a new book coming out,so I'd love to hear a little bit more
on where you're at with that processbecause I'm super excited about it.
I've been looking forward to it for years.
Yeah.
And you're gonna have to keeplooking forward to it for a

(04:29):
little while, unfortunately.
So the release date looks likeit will be September, 2026.
Okay.
So it's coming, it's just not quite yet.
And it's called Overcomingthe Wall of Awful.
It's about my wall of awful model.
We are, we've chapters one throughsix are finished chapter seven.

(04:50):
I have like two or three sentencesleft to write for when I'm done here.
Each chapter at the end of it has likefive takeaways and I have to write three
of the five takeaways on chapter seven.
And then nine and 10 are written.
Eight is a little in process.
We're not exactly going in order,but we will be done with it.

(05:11):
On our version of a rough draft shouldbe done April, may, like the end of
this month, beginning of next month.
And then we're gonna give it out tobeta readers and have them kind of
give us some feedback and they want itJuly 1st and then they take it and they
do whatever edits they're gonna do,give it back to us, and then we have
to flip it back to them in, I'm notsure how long, probably a month or so.

(05:34):
And then it'll be, the book will be done.
And then it comes out.
So between.
I dunno.
Sometime before then it'll be allmarketing and sort of getting the
word out and all of that stuffthat I kind of know how to do
and kind of don't know how to do.
So I'm in this like, pretty soon I'mnot gonna know what I'm doing anymore,
and I'm gonna be learning a lot interms of how do you market a book?
What does that look like I'm hopingto get a TEDx out of the deal

(05:56):
and those kinds of thingsto kind of push it.
And then the book will come outand then it's like, now what do
I do now that I have a book out?
Like what do I do with thatand how does that work?
High expectations for the book.
I met with five publishing companiesthat all had pretty high expectations
of what this book could be.
Mm-hmm.
So hopefully they're right.
And hopefully it turns out to be a hit.
Absolutely.

(06:16):
One of the things that I really appreciateabout your work obviously on the Walla
Waffle, but just in general, is that youhave such a great way of conceptualizing
things in a way that's tangible and your
Thank you,
your gift for metaphor is fantastic.
So I'm sure
there's a bunch of
them in the book.
Yeah.
There's stuff in this book that Ihaven't shared publicly that like
Yeah.
Heard me say before andI've said a lot of stuff.

(06:38):
Yeah.
Some and some of the stuffI've said is in there too.
But there's a lot of stuff in herethat's not, I haven't made a deal of.
'cause I was saving it for the book.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
Well that's great.
And I know I've been lookingforward to this for years.
Yeah.
'cause it was pre pandemic, right?
Mm-hmm.
I,
I was using your videos when I wasworking with some middle schoolers who

(06:58):
had a DHD, anxiety, all that stuff.
And I found it a great tool to helpthem kind of look at their blocks
and then help figure out how toget through it and all of that.
And I remember, 'cause you had offeredto actually talk to my middle school
group right before the pandemic.
I just thought that was so sweetof you that you had offered.
'cause I know you're ridiculously busy.
So, I really appreciated that andit, I've just found it a really great

(07:23):
tool for helping people kind of lookat what their blocks are, where they
came from, and then how to get over it.
So I'm very much looking forward to that.
Thank you.
Yay.
And
so, and so one of the topics thatcame up specifically recently that
triggered this conversation was youdid a short little live video in

(07:43):
your group on what you called hardfascination and soft fascination.
So I'd love to have you sharea little bit more about that.
Yeah.
And I didn't make this up right,this is chapter seven of the book.
Mm-hmm.
Chapter seven is climbing the wall, right?
Mm-hmm.
So like, it takes us that long toget to it, but it is what it is.
Mm-hmm.
I was actually talking to a friendof mine named David Ell, who's

(08:03):
a, neuropsychologist out my way,and he's done, he's in the A DHD
world, maybe not as deeply as weare, but he sort of does stuff.
He works with PEI a lot.
And I was talking to him, Iwanted to make sure that I had
the default mode network, right?
That I was like, I'm gonna go to theperson who knows more than I know.
I'm pretty sure I have it right.
I did have it right.
And he brought in this idea ofhard and soft fascination and

(08:26):
sort of distinguishing betweenthe two and how they work.
And the default mode networkis heavily soft fascination.
So soft fascination is, it'slike your mind is wandering,
you're kind of chilling, butit's not like meditating, right?
Meditating is kind of morehard fascination because you're
trying to steer your thoughts.
You're trying to be in control ofstuff, so you're focused, right?
Even though your mind is beingallowed to wander, you're still

(08:47):
regulating it in some capacity.
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Soft fascination is.
Like your mind is wandering,but not in an anxious way.
It's not like I'm panicking andjumping from one stressor to another.
Stressors might come up, butthey're not the dominant role.
Right.
So soft fascination is when we arefeeling more at ease, more kind of

(09:12):
peaceful and chill and I don't know,balanced, like it's restorative.
It often happens when we're in nature,so we're off walking in the woods or
something and listening to the birdssing and looking at the ripples in the
water and the light dappling throughthe leaves and all that kind of stuff.
That's soft fascination.

(09:34):
Or when you're petting a cat or a dog orsomething and that's what you're tuned
into, but you're not really focused on it.
You're just kind of petting this animaland your mind is going where it's going,
but you're also feeling, connectedand tranquil and that kind of stuff.
So that's soft fascination.
And it's something thatwe don't get enough of it.
Like I've said, it's restorative,it helps restore our attention.

(09:55):
It helps restore our focus.
It helps us to kind ofbalance our emotions.
It's connected to thedefault mode network.
Like the default mode network isactivated when we're in soft fascination.
I know there's some folks out therewho call the default mode network,
a bad thing for people with A DHD.
I don't exactly subscribe to that.
Like, yes, the default mode networkcan lead to rumination and anxiety

(10:19):
and worry and all those things.
If we don't steer it well, butif we steer it, then we get the
restorative properties of it.
And the default mode network isimportant because it allows us to process
emotions and it supports learning.
Like we learn a lot faster in defaultmode network than in any other way.
Maybe hyperfocus.

(10:41):
Mm-hmm.
And it's necessary to learning.
Like we learn better if wegrant ourselves time for it.
But you gotta kind ofshepherd it a little bit.
Get out into nature, be petting acat, listen to music that will kind
of guide you in the right emotionalplace, those sorts of things.
Awesome.
And do you have any thingsthat you've found are helpful
for getting into that mode?

(11:01):
Especially if you're onewho tends to multitask?
On my end it's about making time for it.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
So I kind of multitask when go to thedefault mode network when I'm using soft
fascination, so I do it a lot by goingand walking in the woods, like that's
a heavy, soft fascination thing for me.

(11:23):
But I also live in Massachusetts,so like, I don't have nearly enough
months in the year where that's athing that actually makes sense, right?
Because I'm walking throughfreezing mud or something and
it's just like not a plan.
Yeah.
Northwest here, so Pacific Northwest.
Yeah.
Same idea,
right?
Same kind of weather and climate.
But there's that, it's like pettingmy dog will work all, sometimes
just kind of lay down on a bedor something, or on the floor.

(11:48):
And I intentionally make suremy phone is somewhere else.
'cause I've learned that, like I'llpick it up 'cause we're gonna, we're
gonna have to do some phone vilificationduring the course of this conversation.
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
Another thing that I've startedrecently, I've only been doing it
for a couple of months and I, it'searly on enough for me that I'm
not consistent enough about it yet.
But when I walk in the woods,one of the things I do is I

(12:09):
carry this 40 pound sandbag.
It's kind of like a duffel bag withhandles on it, and it's got a bunch of
sandbags in it that total up to 40 pounds.
And the, a little while agoI was like, deep pressure is
a thing that's really useful.
That thing is about the size of my torso,so I just lay down and put it on me.
Like, I just lay it on my chest,stomach, like the long way.

(12:32):
And then I just lay there and I'm kind ofexperiencing the pressure of this sandbag.
And that's, there's a little bitof soft fascination there too.
'cause I'm not super focused on it.
I'm just like, this is here and I letmy mind wander and go wherever it goes.
But the.
It's almost like a fidget, likeit's almost this other sensory
experience is allowing me to fidgetless and be less squirmy and I

(12:54):
should get up and go do this thing.
Like it reminds me to stay there andI don't just impulsively get up and go
do a dish or eat a cookie or something.
So that's another thing that I'll do.
It drives my wife crazy, but Icould hug my wife forever and
just enter soft fascination.
But that's not how it works for her.
She's not a person who's physicaltouch is her love language.
So I don't get to hug hernearly as much as I would like.

(13:16):
But if she's down, that's a placewhere I can kind of drift off.
So yeah, those are probablymost of the areas where soft
fascination is gonna happen for me.
That, you know, it's funny youbrought that up because it caught
me thinking about the concept oflingering and how different people
have different types of lingering.
And I remember.

(13:36):
Years ago there was some book where theywere talking about people with a DHD
have a difficult time with lingering.
But what I realized is people havedifferent ideas of what that is.
Right?
And so I was having thisconversation last week with
someone who really loves fishing.
Mm-hmm.
And I said something about walking andhe was like, yeah, I have to have like
a purpose or whatever walking's notmy thing I have, to be doing something.

(14:00):
And I was thinking, for me, that'skind of how I feel about fishing.
Like if you're sitting there, I mean,I'm sure there's other factors involved,
but that is more goal oriented I guess.
Whereas the walking, I'm physicallydoing something, but it's really,
for me, the best way to actuallylike be able to have that soft focus.
'cause I'm moving and taking action,but it's not necessarily goal oriented.

(14:23):
Unless like you're hikingto a summit or something.
But most of my walksare just kind of gentle,
Mm-hmm.
You know, observation.
But it's just that concept of lingeringand that like the types of things that
people with a DHD find to be doingsomething versus not is interesting
to me because it's so varied.

(14:43):
Yeah.
Back in my younger days, like all theway back to when I was in college, I
used to say that fishing and golf werethe American version of meditating.
Right.
Because there's a lot, and now thatI'm older and no more, like there's
a lot of space for soft fascination
mm-hmm.
In those two activities.
Like that's why they'recompelling for some people, right?

(15:04):
And also like you're not beinglistened into when you're golfing.
So I'm sure there's plenty ofbusiness people who are golfing
so they can have some high levelmeeting with no one around, but yeah.
But those things kind of grantsome soft fascination and so too
to things like cleaning, right?
Like wiping down a countertop, you'renot really thinking that much when
you're wiping a countertop, dryingdishes, you're not really, maybe

(15:26):
when you wash 'em you are, but dryingthem, like you're not super tuned
into making sure this dish is dry.
And even like coloring and jigsaw puzzlesand that kind of stuff, those are all
gonna lend themselves to soft fascination.
Yeah, I always wish that I couldfeel that way about cleaning.
I envy the ones who do.
I have been more into like crafty things,so I mean, building with Legos and I

(15:49):
have like those diamond art dot thingsthat I'll do but I also multitask.
I'll have like something onin the background or mm-hmm.
I'll do it while I'm listening througha podcast edit and that sort of thing.
So, but yeah, those are thingsthat, like crafty stuff that
definitely I've found really helpful.
One of the things I think I'mwith you on the not being able to

(16:10):
get out in nature all the time.
So that's one of the problems I have inthe winter is if I feel like getting out
for a walk, it's like rainy and gross out.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm not really feeling,you know, I don't necessarily
like getting soaked cold.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So.
Yeah, finding other thingsindoors is, has been a challenge.

(16:31):
I know.
This whole weekend I had a lot ofgreat conversations and it was I was
feeling really good and I'm such anextrovert that while I'm engaged in
those conversations, I'm energized.
But then I got home after my hikeand I don't think it was the hike.
I think it was just, I don'tknow, it just hit that wall.
And sometimes too, I think when youhave that, when you're being pushed

(16:51):
for like work or you have all theseurgent things and then you have this
space, I found myself basically kindof veg on the couch and not really,
you know, doom scrolling and thisis where we're gonna get into that.
Because I just didn'thave the energy to get up.
I should have, done some laundry ordone some cleaning or there's all
these things I should have done.

(17:12):
And I think there's a couple conceptsthat come to my mind with that.
One being the screens, which Iknow you have lots to share about.
So I definitely wanna hear that.
And then the other beingcontaminated time, you know
that concept where basically
No, I don't What, what do you by that?
Oh, you don't,
oh, well, great.
Yeah, teach me.
So I think it's bridged Schulteit's her book is called Overwhelmed.

(17:35):
Mm-hmm.
And she talks about contaminatedtime and that's when you're spending
time on one thing, but then yourmind is preoccupied with something
else, so it's not really restful.
Mm-hmm.
And so for me, where that happensa lot is where I feel like.
I'm too exhausted to do anythingproductive, so I'm resting, but
the type of rest that I'm doingisn't really restful because

(17:56):
it's, you know, on a screen.
Yeah.
Or it's, whatever.
And so finding that balance ofrest that's actually restful.
The walking is great, butthat's a short amount of time.
Then I get home and I'm having a hard timefocusing on anything 'cause I'm tired.
It's not that I'm opposed to resting.
I definitely wanna rest and I wannahonor my need for that, but the way

(18:19):
that I might be drawn into restingmight not be the most productive.
Yeah.
And, and so a few thoughts on that.
Right.
One, when it comes to contaminated timelike that, that immediately sends me to
my wife, who she gets chronic migraines.
She's got a knee that's all injured.
She had ACL.

(18:39):
MCLI don't know, whateverthe knee tendon is.
She had surgery on her rightknee, so now her left knee hurts.
'cause that's just how that goes.
When you get surgery on oneknee, the other one usually
eventually starts hurting.
And so when her other knee's hurtingand when she's in pain, it can
really add to her suffering itcontaminates her time, right?
She's thinking aboutwhen is this gonna stop?

(19:00):
I'm sick of this being feelingthis way and it, I don't like
falter for it, but it certainly is.
G is, she's suffering morethan she maybe needs to.
I wish I could give her my approachto stuff and just be like, eh.
Right.
And a lot of that is my A DHD, right?
I just forget that that's a thingI should be concerned about.
So then I don't, and I'm notconcerned about it, which

(19:20):
isn't necessarily great either.
'cause there's important things Ishould stay worried about that I don't
worry about and then they don't happen.
Absolutely.
But like it all, but in otherways it's useful, right?
Like she may we pay the bills 'causethat's her job and she will stay
on top of it 'cause I won't.
Mm-hmm.
But also that skill of hers makes herpay more attention to this knee pain.
So it's contaminating her time, right?
It's making things harder.

(19:41):
And that's a component tothe wall of awful too, right?
Where if we have this thing that'sbothering us and we continue to
fret about it and perseverate onit, it's worse when we get there.
When we actually have to face it,it feels bigger than it actually is.
'cause we've added all these bricksthat didn't need to get added 'cause
we allowed our contaminated time tostick 15, 20 more bricks on there.

(20:03):
Mm-hmm.
And sometimes if we're worriedabout something enough, like we're
carrying those bricks with us, right?
So they're kind of weighing us downand making other things harder.
And then when we actually go to do thetask that has been bothering us this
whole time, and we climb that wall ofawful, when we get to the top, we find
out that we're not really at the top.
'cause I have to take all thosebricks outta the bag that I'm carrying

(20:23):
and stick those on top of the walland then climb a little higher
before I can actually get over it.
And that stinks.
Mm-hmm.
So like that contaminated time,it's a thing to pay attention to.
'cause it doesn't necessarily serveus, even though it might feel like we're
doing something, it might feel like, well,I'm worrying about it, so that must mean
I'm doing things and you're not though.
Mm-hmm.

(20:44):
Absolutely.
So that brings us to the questionof with the screen time and how
mm-hmm.
Because specifically you weretalking about the hard fascination
versus soft fascination and Yeah.
How screen time and doom scrollingis often hard fascination and it
just is, it feels like softfascination, but it's not, it's
hard, far hard fascination.

(21:04):
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
So I'd love to hear more aboutthat and if you have any thoughts
on moving away from that.
Yeah.
So the phone back in the day, right,back in the eighties and nineties when
I was a kid, like I would've to wait inline at the supermarket and I would just
wait in line at the supermarket, and asa result, I'm soft fascination, right?

(21:29):
I'm in mind wandering mode.
My, my brain is just going wherever.
That's not how it works anymore.
'cause now you're in line at thesupermarket and you pull out your
phone and you're looking at your phoneand you're doing that stuff, right?
Even half the time people walk throughthe supermarket with earbuds on listening
to podcasts or music or whatever.
Music is better for soft fascination.
Hard fascination is podcasts and stuff.
Music may or may not be.

(21:49):
And so it's not great.
Like all of our downtime, all of oursort of mind wandering mode, time
is ripe to get stolen by our phones.
The phones just want to jump intothose spaces 'cause we're bored.
You kind of have to be like, yougotta know how to do that, right?
We gotta relearn how to be bored.
And so I recommend, like I have, when Iwork with some of my clients, I'm like,

(22:11):
just this week, leave your phone in yourcar when you go places, not even for the
sake of getting soft fascination, but justto see how many times you tap your pocket.
And wonder where your phone wentand have a little, what do I do?
What do I do with it?
Right.
Just to give some feedback toyourself about how much of a
hook this phone has on you.

(22:32):
And they come back and they'relike, yeah, Brendan, you're right.
Like, oh my God.
I kept having little moments whereI was like, where's my phone?
Or I went to take it outand I didn't have it.
Like yeah, just, I don'tcare what you do with that.
I just want you to know that it's there.
You can decide you're just gonnakeep your phone in your pocket
all the time and that's okay.
Or you can decide you don't likeit and start trying to put the
phone down, that's okay too.

(22:52):
But knowing that we're losing allof this mind wandering mode, time
and all of this soft fascinationtime to our phones is critical.
And then we can start playing with itwhen we use our phones and we can start to
go, wait, is this doing anything for me?
I know I've had times and I'mscrolling through, I don't know, like
Twitter or Instagram or something,or threads and I'm just like.

(23:17):
This isn't useful.
The one that gets me the mostactually is the YouTube shorts.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Like, I'm just like, oh, that one's over.
I'll go to the next one.
That one's over.
And it's fast.
And then I'm like, I feel yucky.
Like my head hurts and I, whydon't, why am I doing this?
I've gotten better atlike, not doing that.
Yeah.
But one of the things that happenswith social media which we're usually

(23:39):
accessing through our phone, notalways, but typically, or through
an iPad or something, is we'redoing a whole lot of transitions
in a really short amount of time.
Mm-hmm.
Reading a book, we sit there fora while in that same book, writing
an essay or something or whatever.
Like, we're doing thatgrading papers, right.
Cooking a meal, like we're in this modefor a while, and we're in the same kind

(24:04):
of emotional state ish, or, and we atleast know what emotions are coming up.
Right?
Like if you're grading papers as ateacher, you're like, well, I know I'm
gonna have a little bit of frustrationand I might have a little bit of
disappointment when I get to this kid.
'cause they struggle.
And like, I might be frustrated withmyself for not doing something right.
Because none of the kids are gettingthe concept that I wanted them to get.
Like that's stuff youkind of expect, right?

(24:25):
You know what you're getting into.
But when you pick up social media, youdon't really know what's gonna happen.
'cause you're just gonna comeacross whatever somebody wrote.
Mm-hmm.
And it might be delightful.
It might be tragic, it might bemotivating, it might be disheartening.
It might make you angry.
It might make you sad.
Right.
And more often than not,it's making people angry or

(24:48):
sad or something like that.
'cause that's what gets clicks.
That's what gets attention.
So those kinds of posts arepromoted more by the algorithm.
Mm-hmm.
And it's not good.
Like it's just not healthy.
So we've gotta be more tacticaland intentional with our social
media use and be more thoughtfulabout who we're following and not
following and those sorts of things.

(25:09):
And I'm to the point where I'mthinking about having multiple social
media accounts on like Blue Sky orThreads or something so that I can
be like, 'cause my stuff is a mess.
It's like sometimes there's mental healthstuff and sometimes it's political stuff.
And then there's this guy that I justfind funny and here's current events
and like, they're not all the same.
Mm-hmm.
And as a result, I am going all overthe place with my emotional experiences.

(25:33):
Mm-hmm.
And they don't all let you kindof silo in the way that I would
prefer to be able to silo.
Yeah.
So it's just a thing to pay attention to.
Like, how is this stuff making me feel?
How many transitions am I having to make?
How is that gumming up my cognition andI'm spending extra energy while every
transition I'm losing a little bit moreenergy and a little bit more attention.

(25:54):
And if we're transitioningevery 15 to 20 seconds, that's.
Intense.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's funny 'cause I realize like,my TikTok is mostly neurodivergent
stuff, but it can be like a lot ofbrain heavy, you know, if you're
in a time of needing relaxation.
So I have one Instagram accountthat I kind of like trained on, cute

(26:15):
dog videos, cat videos and stuff,so I know, exactly what you mean.
Sometimes you wanna have likean account that's trained on a
mindless or, funny humor or whatever.
Yeah, I get that.
Totally.
Yeah.
And like I think I need to make onethat's just trained on current events.
Mm-hmm.
So I can steal myself in advancefor whatever it's I'm looking at.

(26:36):
And I don't have to experience thatstuff outside of that one account.
That's kind of thedirection I'm heading in.
It's protect, yeah.
Yeah,
for sure.
More restorative.
Yeah.
Yeah, no, I agree because for me,I've focused on accounts that have
actionable steps and, you know, hopeful
mm-hmm.
Ideas and things that you can do.
But I kind of avoid things that areactually talking about the exact, what's

(26:59):
happening now, which is not good either,so that's actually not a bad idea.
I know it kind of makes me think ofthe concept of like super stimulants
mm-hmm.
that Screen and drugs and things that arelike that super stimulant versus something
that's stimulating in a more gentle way.
And I remember it hearing thatscreens and that sort of thing

(27:23):
are super stimulants and sothey kind of have that spike.
I think it was that one where I heardit was Stuart Shanker, the self reg guy.
Mm-hmm.
But yeah, it really caught me in termsof like, there's certain things that are
energizing, but then there's things that,they're super stimulants, so they may
feel energizing in the moment, but thenit leaves you feeling worse in the end.

(27:46):
Yeah, yeah.
And it's tricky, right?
Because a lot of neurodiversity, right?
So giftedness, A DHD, autism tosome degree, those big signals
as Cam Gott would say, are thethings we're gonna notice, right?
That's the stuff we're gonnaactually pick up on those.
So the super stimulantsare big signals, right?

(28:07):
They're gonna drown out the lowersignals, and so we have to make an effort.
To go after the quieter stuffand the more gentle stimulants.
More often I've taken to reading, I usedto read almost exclusively on Kindle.
I've taken to reading a paper.
Mm-hmm.
Just to have a more gentle experience andhave a different experience than my phone.

(28:29):
'cause a Kindle and a phone are,they're not the same thing, but
they're kind of the same, they'rethe same interface at least.
Mm-hmm.
And so a book is, it's adifferent kind of interface.
It feels slower, like the turningof a page slows you down as opposed
to tapping a screen on a Kindle.
Mm-hmm.
And if the page doesn't turnimmediately, like I'm hitting it and
tapping it hard and I can feel thelike, different energy of that as

(28:52):
opposed to, oh, lemme turn the page.
So even that kind of stuff as a wayto be a little gentler with myself.
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
Well, one of the other thingsthat I wanted to make sure to.
Catch up about was, I feel like thelast time I had you as a guest, you did
talk about the wall of Awful with mycommunity, which is on the podcast and

(29:12):
the full discussion in my membership.
But that was like duringthe pandemic, I think,
probably.
And so I think we haven't really, like wecaught up a little bit at the conference,
which I, am super grateful for you.
Actually, before I get to the burnoutpart, I do wanna share that, recently,
I talked about the neuro diversionconference, which we missed you at.

(29:33):
And I was comparing it to the A DHDconference, which it is what it is.
It's what it's designed for,which is a much bigger, more
professional type oriented thing.
But what I found was, I think if I hadn'tknown you and Mark, I would've probably.
Felt very isolated.
I had a couple other peoplethat I had known a little bit

(29:55):
that I got caught up with.
And Anita Robertson and I becamefriends through that, which was great.
Anita's
great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She let me stay at herplace, which was awesome.
Oh, dope.
So totally glad that I went.
But I definitely felt a lot of thetime that I would've felt very isolated
if I hadn't already known you guys.
And I know you were like super busy,so you took some time that first

(30:15):
night to introduce me to a couplepeople and I really appreciated that.
And I think I ended up hanging out withthe men's support group more than anyone
else, just because Mark is just so
the good
guys.
Yeah.
Open and kind and just alwaysmade me feel welcome and never
like an extra, you know, person.
But it was funny because at theneuro diversion conference I just

(30:37):
like followed some random group ofpeople to dinner and felt totally
welcomed and like made friends.
And Ari Scott, I don't know ifyou know her or Rie Rie Scott.
I do.
She's the h ADHD entrepreneur andshe is just got this like major
energy and she like, puts her armaround me and Danny Donovan was
taking pictures and she's like, Hey,get a picture with my new bestie.

(30:57):
And then the next day I find outshe's the keynote after Jessica.
I had no idea who she was.
I just, you know, it just was awhole completely different vibe.
it was just great.
And even just there was a moment withDanny was talking to a young woman who
wants to get into content creation, andthen I got in the conversation and it was

(31:18):
a great conversation about different, likehow she had someone that she really looked
up to who validated her idea, and thenwhen she left the young woman was like,
thank you so much for taking the timeout to talk to a little person like me.
And I'm like, I mean, like, I'm not,but then again, we're all little people.
I do have, we're all the same
size.
Whatever size you want that to be, like.

(31:39):
I know.
Exactly.
And, and the thing is like.
Yeah, it just, thatkind of warmth about it.
But one of the things I've appreciatedabout you is even in the online
interactions, there's just like thisgenuine warmth to your interactions.
And what it brought up to me, thiswhole experience was that concept

(31:59):
of transactional relationships.
Mm-hmm.
And I was just reading, what's that book?
The Four Pivots, it's called,it's a book about activism.
Mm-hmm.
But it's called the Four Pivots.
And he talks about transactionalversus transformational relationships.
And I realize that a lot of my problemswith any kind of business related thing

(32:21):
that might actually lead to money,that's not just me sharing freely.
I get caught up in because I'm so likeantit transactional relationships,
and anytime I ask for anything,I'm like super aware of it.
But that's one of the things I'vealways appreciated about you is just,
it feels like even though there issome, like when you're in, especially

(32:42):
when you're in the business world,there has to be some and I had,
yeah, there does, I know you've doneso much, you put yourself out there
so much and the, it's hard, you know,when it comes back to like actually
like getting your own expert stuff.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, and thank you for that.
Like, I mean, I hope in my mind, I hopeI'm doing it right, like I hope I come

(33:02):
across as warm and I hope I come acrossas like, I'm just willing to be there and
support folks and do the thing, right?
Mm-hmm.
It's also hard, right?
Like the conference is a good example.
I mean, Shane, another men's, ADHDsupport group guy, like me and
Mark Shane said to me, I think itwas Saturday, he was like, I just
wanna hang out with this Friday.
He's like, I just wannahang out with you today.
Mm-hmm.
And I was like, okay, butyou're following a puppy.

(33:24):
Like, I'm gonna be tearingall over the place.
'cause I do a hundred things atthat conference and I don't know
if I'm gonna be there and I can'tslow down 'cause I'll crash, right?
Like
mm-hmm.
I'm flying on, adrenaline andhyperactivity for most of that
conference just to make it through.
'cause I do so many things.
And he mostly hung with me.

(33:45):
Eventually, the next day hewas like, you did ditch me.
And I was like, oh, sorry.
I didn't mean to,
I ended up hanging out with him to
the next, to the next,
I think that last day I ended uphanging out with him a lot too.
So we, yeah.
Yeah.
But no, like my hope is that I'mthrowing enough stuff out there that

(34:05):
when I need the help, I'll get the help.
Right.
Like, and I'm bad at asking for help.
Mm-hmm.
But that's where I'm heading there, right?
Like this book comes out.
I wouldn't say I'm gonna haveto cash in a lot of favors
'cause that's not how I work.
Yeah, yeah.
But my hope is that the people that I'vebeen supporting and trying to help and
doing things for as much as I can tovarious degrees, that those folks will be
like, that's Brendan, he's doing it right.

(34:27):
Let's make sure that this book hits right.
Like,
yeah.
And I certainly know, like Jessica'sgot my back, Jessica's gonna write
the introduction to the book.
So like, she's gonna help.
You're the gonna help Daniel help.
I know I've got folks, the men's aDH ADHD support group has got me.
There's plenty of people whohave got my back and I know that.
But my hope is that me, I don't know,being a force for Good has earned me.

(34:50):
Like the cred to be the one to support.
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
And I think it has, but that's one of thethings I think where we connect is that
I sense that feeling of like, you have toover give to feel like you've even earned
the reciprocation, which I totally get,but Yeah, there's also that when you're

(35:11):
navigating parasocial relationships oreven in personal relationships where
you're someone who's generally givingand open and accepting, and you don't
wanna purposefully exclude anyone, butyou also have limited internal resources.
Mm-hmm.
So that's one of the reasons why I wasso, so grateful for you at that first

(35:35):
night of the conference because itreally did help start my conference in
a way that made me feel more connected.
And I know that you've got so much goingon that it really meant a lot to me.
I just wanted to share.
Well,
yeah, I mean, I'm glad 'causeI definitely didn't feel like
I did it right for by you.
Like I absolutely didn't feel like Ispent enough time with you or connected to
enough people or did anywhere near enough.

(35:58):
So to hear that I did is goodbecause it lets me reframe like
what I'm doing and how that works,
yeah, exactly.
Well, and that's where I feel like Irelate to you in that way, that we,
I think our perceived value versuswhat other people perceive us is
mm-hmm.
So different, you know?
So, I'm glad to share thatand I appreciate that.

(36:18):
Yeah.
Thank you.
So,
oh, and like that's a wallof awful in itself, right?
Of like facing what our actual value isversus what we think or don't think it is.
Mm-hmm.
Because that's all comingfrom childhood, right?
That's come coming from like being the kidwho, on my end, being the kid who moved
between fourth and fifth grade and hadto rebuild this whole social structure.

(36:39):
And then fifth grade was elementaryschool, sixth grade was middle school.
So I had to rebuild again ayear later with no foundation.
And also being the kid with a DHD whowas making mistakes all the time and
didn't understand half the things you'resupposed to do, and all of that makes
you feel like you're not good enough.
Mm-hmm.
And then you'd get to adulthood andeven when you're a well-respected and

(37:00):
well-regarded person in your industry.
You're still like, but I'm just adude in his basement with a podcast.
Like I don't
mm-hmm.
I don't know how cool I am book dealwith one of the top five publishers
in the world and you're like, oh, Iguess maybe, and you've got people who
you think are amazing, present companyincluded that are like, Hey, I just want

(37:20):
to talk to you or spend time with you orlike, have a chat over Zoom and you're
like, okay, maybe I did something right.
And
you have people talking about youbehind closed doors all favorably.
So
Yeah.
Hopefully
big people.
I mean, hopefully, but that's, Ireferred to it as middle school, Brendan.
Right.
Like the kid in middle school who didn'tknow how to get out of his own way.

(37:40):
Mm-hmm.
And could barely makeprogress going forward.
He's still in me and he still talks and hestill has a voice and he doesn't get it.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well you're very much appreciated.
And that actually brings up to meone of the things that I mentioned at
one point is that I'm going back towork full-time in school next year.

(38:04):
I've been three daysa week for many years.
So it'll be interesting.
But on that note of transactionalrelationships, what I realized is that in
some ways it's actually gonna free me upto focus on the things that I really love
about the business without worrying aboutit somehow sustaining me financially.

(38:25):
And so, for me, I think that that's gonnabe a good thing because I'm one of those
people that just wants to share stuff.
But anytime it comes to the paidstuff, I'll put it out there once and
be like, oh yeah, I made this thing.
And then
mm-hmm.
It like fades into the ether and like.
I mean, that's even true ofsome of my free stuff too.
Like all those videos that Imade during the pandemic, like

(38:48):
the one I did with your story.
Yeah.
I need to share those again becausethey're interesting stories.
There's a reason I picked thosestories and it's a different
way of consuming the stories.
And so, I know you used to work inthe school setting and have actually
managed to work your way out of it.
I would love to hear like in thattransition, how you navigated when

(39:11):
you were kind of in that transitionof working in school and trying to
Yeah, so that was, some of itis I am married and my wife is
wonderful and has a good job.
Like some of it is, we had afinancial safety net, right?
Like we were able to make due onjust her salary for a little while.
'cause I, my career as a teacher ended.

(39:32):
In one year.
It was a really hard year.
And the stuff I do onFacebook with today's awesome.
Mm-hmm.
This is the origin of today's awesome.
Mm-hmm.
So in one year, my mom got sick,my career as a teacher ended, my
mom died, and then my car burneddown while I was on the highway.
If I had been in a car wreck, I probablywould've become suicidal, like real talk.

(39:56):
Mm-hmm.
But when your car, when you're drivingdown the highway and all of a sudden
you hear boo and your hood pops upand fire shoots out, out from either
side, and then it goes back down.
Like it didn't pop up all the way,like the middle of it pops up and
fire shot out of either side, andthen it went back down to normal ness.
And I was like and then I felt like Iwas driving through mud and it made like
slowing down noises and I pulled over.

(40:18):
Mm-hmm.
And inside of three or four minutes,there was a 50 foot pyre of flame
coming off the front of my car.
Mm-hmm.
And it burned down.
And that was like.
I felt like that was amessage, like a car wreck.
I wouldn't have felt the same way.
I would've been like, this is myfault because I must have done
something that caused the accident.

(40:38):
'cause I have a DHD, right?
Mm-hmm.
But when I didn't do anything,it just, my car blew up.
Or my engine did.
It was like, what am I doing with this?
And at the time I was pretty depressed.
There was other bad stuff that happenedthen too, but just doesn't rate career
ending, mom dying, car burning down.
Like those are.
I got a really bad case ofpoison ivy too, but who cares?
I remember standing on the side of thehighway and going like, I feel like

(41:04):
this is a message like I feel likethe universe is trying to tell
me something, but I also don'tfeel like the universe hates me.
Like that doesn't seem true.
I don't think I'm the kind ofguy that the universe hates.
Reference what you were saying earlier.
Mm-hmm.
And so I was like, I think I needto stop looking at the awful and
start looking at the awesome.
And that was what happened.
Like then I made this changefor years and years and years.
I posted today's awesome every single day.

(41:25):
Now I'm not on social media as much.
Mm-hmm.
But that was the deal was like every dayme looking for what's awesome about today.
And I got to the point where Iwas like, you can gimme anything.
I'll tell you the awesome in it.
Mm-hmm.
Find the awesome and the awful.
And I still can do that.
And so during that time I was like,I was unemployed and rebuilding.
Like I went and got a secondmaster's degree and started looking
for guidance counseling positions.

(41:46):
And I got a job, I did somemental health work for a little
while, left that company.
'cause all of a sudden no onehad health insurance anymore and
that's not good business practice.
So I bounced, went and become a specialeducation teacher for about a half a
year at the second half of a school year.
They couldn't hire me for thenext year 'cause they didn't
have the right licensure.
'cause I'm a guidance counselor,not a special ed teacher.
And so I was like, now what?

(42:07):
And I ended up moving to A DHD and Iwas sort of dabbling in it the whole
time from when I left teaching allthe way through the master's degree
program and all the way through themental health and special ed stuff.
I had been playing withit and thinking about it.
And so I just kind of went inwith both feet when I didn't
get that special ed job.
And it took a little while.
Like it took a while to build upto, this feels like a real job.

(42:31):
I only.
In the past couple of years startedmaking more money than I would've
made if I had stayed teaching.
Mm-hmm.
And even then, I don't know that I wouldnecessarily be making more money than
if I had been accruing experience inyears of service and that kind of stuff.
Yeah.
I might still not make as much now.
I do.
'cause the book deal, like
Yeah,
the book deal trumped everyyear I've ever, I've done

(42:51):
Nice.
But but no, it was a lot of working andscraping and going and trying and becoming
comfortable with how much money to charge.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Like, people can hear whatmy fees are 'cause whatever.
Mm-hmm.
At least this is where they are now.
They may go up, I don't know, butI, I started at like $75 an hour
and then I went up to a hundredand that felt like a big jump.

(43:11):
Mm-hmm.
And then I went up to one 50or no, 1 25 and then Covid hit.
Oh yeah.
And
then that made things a lot easier'cause I was homeschooling my kids.
Mm-hmm.
And
I was like, how much.
Do you have to pay me to get meto not spend time with my kids?
Like that became the math and Iwas like, $200 an hour, like done.

(43:32):
Right.
And I've been at 200 since andthen I, when I do workshops,
I charge $500 an hour.
Mm-hmm.
And that was because I talked to a, oneof my professors and he was like, well,
this is how much you go, you, you charge.
Mm-hmm.
This is the going rate.
And I was like, okay, cool.
Then $500 an hour.
Mm-hmm.
And I've gone up since then.
Like now I just, the stuff I'mdoing now, I'm getting a thousand

(43:54):
an hour in the last two thingsthat I, that I deals that I signed.
Nice.
But that might go up and down.
I don't know if that's arealistic number or not.
'cause I haven't booked enoughthings with, at that price.
Mm-hmm.
But I also have a book comingout and like, who knows when
the book comes out, that's,
yeah.
I'm gonna be in a different level oncethe book comes out, if it hits, if I
do it right, I'll be at another level.
Right.
And all those numberswill go up and change.

(44:15):
So
that's kind of the thought process.
And it also depends on who needs helpand what does that help look like?
And if I have like a school PTO thatwants me to do stuff for them, I
like bargain basement prices, right?
Because I'm like, sure, Iwanna help this population.
I can do that for you.
If I get a couple clientsoutta a deal, great.
But mostly I just wanna help.

(44:36):
But if it's a school or a company orsomething, now it's different money.
Now it's like, nah, youcan afford to pay me.
Mm-hmm.
Because the value you're gettingis gonna exceed what I'm charging.
Yeah.
That's not true for like a PTOkind of thing where you've got a
handful of parents there and stuff.
Mm-hmm.
So that, that's all part of the process.
And there's things I could be monetizingthat I'm not, I could have commercials

(44:57):
on the podcast or something like that.
The parent groups took me a little while.
I'm still under a thousand.
I'm at nine.
9 76, I think for the parentgroups for eight weeks.
Mm-hmm.
Twice a week.
So it's like, that's prettycheap compared to most things.
And I probably have to raise that.
Mm-hmm.
But like that, I landed there before Covidand then Covid hit and that distracted me.

(45:18):
And I don't think your audience knows,but during that time, my son was diagnosed
with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.
It led to him being hospitalizedfor three months, shut our family
down for like a year and a half.
The podcast still hasn't recovered.
Like I was going weekly.
I have not posted weekly since then.
Yeah.
And that was three years ago.
Yeah.
He's better now.
Like he's doing great now.
He sophomore in high school?

(45:38):
They both, I have twins.
They're both sophomores in high school.
Yeah.
They're both doing great now, butit was a rough, really hard several
years of like Nate's, OCD and thenmy dad had health issues and I was
doing the sandwich generation prettysignificantly, which led to burnout and
recovering with soft fascination, so,
yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Mine's 11th grade too andwe had a rough time of it.

(46:01):
Almost dropped outta school several timesthis year, but they're actually doing
much better since they started driving.
Like that autonomy justmade a huge difference.
Probably also getting your girlfriend,but just that like, the autonomy of being
able to drive and, wanting to try to get ajob, which is hard in this current market.
So that's another reason why going backto work full-time is gonna be good.

(46:22):
I do wanna circle back to theburnout thing because I think we both
experienced some pretty significantburnout mine during the pandemic.
So for me, staying part-time aslong as I did was only possible
because my dad owned our property.
And so he didn't really,like, he appreciated my work.
Both my parents have been supportive.
And so, I stayed part-time, longer thanI probably would have if not for that

(46:46):
support and just living very frugally.
But you know, having a teenager who'sdriving and insurance and all that is a
whole different, set of, well, yeah, itwas a little bit of the pandemic getting
covid and everything, but also, do youeven know that my ex transitioned gender?
I do.
Yeah.
Okay.
Anyway, but that, you know,we're like family now.
They're up in Seattle, but they hada really dark dark period and it

(47:08):
really brought up a lot of thingsthat had been suppressed, so.
Mm-hmm.
It was like a different person every day.
And so on top of the pandemic stuff, Ialso had this person that I cared about
who was just like an entirely differentperson, sometimes multiple times in a day.
Mm-hmm.
Wow.
And so I had a lot of stuff thathappened at once where we left the
property, and then the following yearthe school that I had been at for 14

(47:33):
years, and I didn't, I actually wasin that school longer than any of
my, either of my long relationships.
And I realized after thepandemic that there was a lot
of underlying like kind of.
Almost passive aggressiveness,like just very much.
They liked to have things neat and tidyand they didn't like messy conversations.
And they were uncomfortable whenI was a little too open and I

(47:55):
realized like I was masking morethan I realized in that setting.
I stayed because it was predictable, butafter the pandemic not as predictable.
And so I was kind of forced to movebecause they got more time than I had,
so they got more than three days a week.
And so it was a naturalopportunity to leave.
And even though my currentbuildings had a lot of stressors

(48:17):
going on, it wasn't aimed at me.
Mm-hmm.
I got a lot of appreciation from thefrom the admin, which was interesting
because the other one I'd been atfor 14 years, I don't know if I ever
heard a word of praise which is wild.
It's wild because like every otherplace that I was at, I got so much
praise and even at the district level.

(48:38):
So it didn't even occur to me.
Until like the end, I waslike, oh, that's interesting.
So we moved and the same year weofficially separated, although
we were done long before that.
And my new job, I mean new buildings.
So it was like a lot of change at once.
But last year was really just lettingmyself do whatever I felt like

(49:00):
doing because I just couldn't, thatwhole summer was just recalibration.
And then this last summer I started tofinally kind of get that creative juices
back and I'm starting to like, feel that.
And, but a lot of, for me, a lot of thepart that goes back to the rest that's
actually restful is that that unstructuredtime when I could be working on various

(49:25):
other things, it's hard to focus on.
What it is that I need to focus on andI have resistance to the things that
I think I should do versus the thingsthat you know, but I know you and that's
okay.
Mm-hmm.
That might mean that, like, think of itlike a health bar and a video game, right?
Mm-hmm.
Like if you health bar's reallylow, you're gonna be much more

(49:47):
careful and not take risks.
'cause you could dieright in your video game.
But when the health bar is going up, onceyou've got enough, now you can play the
game the way you would typically play it.
But that doesn't mean yourhealth bar's full, right?
Yeah.
So you might be in a situation whereyou've recovered enough from the burnout
that you can mostly play the gamethe way you would typically play it.

(50:10):
But when you have downtime, turns outyour health bar's not totally full.
And so you don't have thespace in the holes to do stuff.
Maybe use that time to fill yourhealth bar more instead of doing the
things you feel like you should dothat aren't necessarily restorative.

(50:30):
You might find that you're at like 85%restored and that 15% that's still empty.
That's where, oh, I've got 20 minutes.
I could do, the dishes orsomething, or I could bake a cake or
something, and you're like, mm-hmm.
I feel like it.
Yeah.
'cause you're actually at your limit.
You need to refill thatlast 15% or even 5% of that.

(50:53):
And then when you hit a break, youcan be like, oh, you know what?
I do feel like mm-hmm.
Doing whatever the thing isthat you feel like doing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
That's true.
And part of the thing for me is Ithink, because a lot of the things
I feel like I should be doing areon a screen, but if I'm not in a
point where I can focus on it mm-hmm.
Then I'll get sidetracked by the thingsthat I shouldn't be doing on a screen.

(51:17):
Yeah.
So just do something else.
Yeah.
You
might, you might even like, 'causeI've been there and I found that
even just a week or two of lettingmyself recover in the empty holes.
Mm-hmm.
All of a sudden now I can do stuff onthe screen and be responsible with it and
mm-hmm.
Not get
distracted and all those kinds of things.
Yeah, absolutely.

(51:38):
So I'd love to hear a little bit moreabout your journey back from your own
burnout in terms of what helped you.
Sure, yeah.
And then I have to wrap up soon'cause I've got a client to call.
Yep.
So I got like five minutes.
Yeah.
Yeah, so I very intentionallyput myself back together using
Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
I very deliberately was like, okay,I need to focus on my physiological

(52:00):
needs and my safety needs and.
That takes precedence and then I'llworry about belongingness and love
and connection, all that stuff.
And then I'll worry about esteemand like, I don't even know if
self-actualization is really a thingfor people who aren't millionaires.
But so that was like my deal, right?
And that's a big piece of wherethe wood stuff came from, was like,

(52:20):
I'm gonna go walk in the woods.
Mm-hmm.
'cause that's physiological, right?
That's getting my body moving andpumping the blood and all that stuff.
And I got, I wear like work glovesso I can do pull-ups on branches
and pushups on the ground and allthat kind of stuff without worrying
about cutting or goofing up my hands.
Mm-hmm.
And I eventually got that 40pound bag like sandbag that I

(52:41):
would carry for some of the walk.
Mm-hmm.
And I li I would listen to me,I still do, I listen to music
that like, is restorative musicfor me, the stuff that I like.
Mm-hmm.
So like a lot of nineties hiphop and Def Leppard and Van
Halen and that kind of stuff.
Tribe Called Quest.
Mm-hmm.
House of pain.
And that did a lot, like every, justabout every morning for a long time.

(53:02):
I was like, as long as the weathercooperated and I started this process
when the weather was good I would do that.
And the, and also the woodsis like safety, right?
Because it's like calm and peaceful andwhat I now know is soft fascination.
But at the time was like safety.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
And communicating more clearly withmy wife and in intentionally taking

(53:24):
a step back from my kids 'cause I wasso enmeshed with them for so long.
Mm-hmm.
Between covid, like especiallyhomeschooling them during Covid.
Mm-hmm.
And then all the stuffthat went on with Nate.
And then rebuilding my relationshipwith Gavin because I had to, I
was the one doing running Point onNate, so I didn't see Gavin as much.
So then I. Spent time with Gavin.
And then my, eventually my dad gotbetter and that meant that I could put

(53:48):
some of that time down 'cause I wasgoing to my dad at least one day a week.
Mm-hmm.
Which means that day is gone.
Right.
I'm not doing anything.
And my kids eventually didn't need meto pick 'em up from school anymore and
I gained some time there and I neededthat time, that extra couple of hours.
Like now they can take the bus to schoolby them without it being problematic and
I don't have to pick them up from school.

(54:09):
They can take the bus home and there'salmost an hour on either side of the
day that I have to do stuff with andthey can come home and do homework and
I don't have to be upstairs anymore.
So like that frees up space.
So those are kinds of the ways thatI did stuff and I started tuning
into my values and what are thepriorities that I want to take, right?
Like I came up with, I don't know thatanyone, I'm sure someone else has defined

(54:32):
burnout this way, but I haven't seen it.
So, but my definition of burnoutis when you exist in a state of
anxiety for so long that it justbecomes the water you swim in.
So anxiety doesn't motivate you anymore.
Mm-hmm.
Like, that
was my experience of burnout as a guywho usually could activate with anxiety.

(54:52):
Like anxiety's the only thing youcould burn for fuel and wind up
with more of it when you're done.
Mm-hmm.
I got to the point where I couldn'tburn anxiety for fuel anymore.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
'cause
I was just always in anxiety.
I was ev every day all the time.
So it didn't motivate me and I had tofigure out how to motivate myself in
a different way, which ended up beingmy values and learning how to do that.

(55:13):
Mm-hmm.
And then working with the Maslow hierarchyof needs stuff and all those sorts of
things to deescalate my baseline anxietyso that it was at a more reasonable level.
And that eventually Icould burn it for fuel.
Again, it's not asreliable as it used to be.
Like I have a book due July 1stand I'm kind of like, eh, I'm fine.
Yeah.
Or whatever.
Like I'm not, I have no pressureabout that and I really should,

(55:33):
like, it's not good that I don'thave any pressure about that.
'cause it makes it harder to activate.
But I also, if I look at it from amotivational perspective and I'm like,
no, I have a book due, that's awesome.
If I look at it that way, insteadof the anxiety pushing me towards
getting this book done, I have to use.
The draw towards, like, I need to be more,it's better really moving towards it then

(55:54):
which is better.
Really as Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it's not how I'm used to operating.
Right.
Yeah.
I'm used to, for most of my life,the anxiety pushes me somewhere.
Yeah.
As opposed to the like goal beingthe thing that draws me towards it.
Yeah.
So that's kind of how it all worked out.
And then the healing from the burnoutwas spending time with my wife.
My wife and I started dancingagain, which was helpful.

(56:14):
That was good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
My sensei kind of helping me out andguiding me through stuff and giving
me a break and not making me takea black belt test when I couldn't.
And now I take it in December.
And then spending time with friends andmaking an effort to do that and combat
male loneliness by playing Dungeons andDragons and watching wrestling shows and
mm-hmm.
Dumb

(56:35):
stuff, board games though, and beingmore mindful of like, I'm having
a good time hanging out with myfriends and let me kind of sit and
be glad that this is happening andbe mindful of the benefit of that.
All of that stuff was restorative.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Do you have any final thoughts you'dlike to share before we wrap up?
Just like sort of like the crux of thisis that stuff is hard sometimes and that

(57:00):
doesn't mean it's not worth doing and thatdoesn't mean we can't keep moving forward.
It just means that stuff is hard.
And Alan P. Brown who doesthe a DD Crusher stuff
mm-hmm.
When I was in the middleof the stuff with Nate.
I was talking to him about it oneday and I was in a mastermind
that he ran and I was talking aboutall the stuff that was going on.
He was like, yeah, it sounds likeyou're in a really hard season.
And like, it was justa thing he said, right?

(57:21):
He says that to everybody.
I'm sure.
That's just part of his model.
But it really meant a lot.
'cause that word season meantthis is temporary seasons change.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And it helped me see the other side of it.
And that's for anybody listening that'sin the heat of it, in the depth of it
right now, for whatever reason, likeit's a season and seasons change and it
might be a long season, might be a shortseason, but it's gonna change eventually.

(57:44):
And the hope is on the other side.
Absolutely.
I had a little moment with my kid theother day where they're like, I think
I'm in one of those phases right nowwhere everything's irritating me.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, youjust acknowledged it as a phase.
Because even up to like a couplemonths ago it was, everything is awful.

(58:05):
Everything will always be awful.
What's the point?
And just that tiny reframe was like, oh,I think I'm in one of those states again.
And then they were able to pullthemselves out of it more because they
didn't see it as a permanent state.
Nice.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Awesome.
So, well, thank you so much.
I definitely am glad we had thisconversation because it touches

(58:27):
on so many of the things I've beenexploring and I know we've gone
through some similar journeys recently.
It was great to have you.
Thank you for having me.
And it's nice just to talk to you.
Yeah, absolutely.
I know I was kind of like, well,I mean, we could record it.
Or we can not, but we might as wellrecord it because it addresses things.
A lot of people are going through rightnow, I feel like there's just been the,
a universal burnout and then mm-hmm.

(58:49):
You know, current eventshave added to that.
And even in my in person, I'm hoping todo a couple panels on healing in times
of burnout and community care and stuff.
And so it's all veryrelevant, so thank you very
much.
Cool.
All right.
Bye.
Bye.

(59:21):
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