April 2, 2025 • 37 mins
Hi everyone! Patricia and Nicole were in New York celebrating Patricia's birthday when EEDA Pod recording usually happens. So this week, we're giving you an encore of an older episode that is still, unfortunately, incredibly relevant.
Full show notes and transcript are available at https://eedapod.com/we-need-to-talk-about-misinformation-and-disinformation/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Patricia (00:15):
Hey brats.
Welcome to Enthusiastic Encouragementand Dubious Advice the podcast for
folks who would rather curl intothe fetal position than lean in.
I'm your host, Patricia Elzie-Tuttle.
Nicole (00:26):
And I didn't fact check that, Nicole Elzie-Tuttle.
We are recording thisshow on July 15th, 2024.
Patricia (00:34):
Well, a lot has happened in the world and this nation
since we last recorded a show.
And all I can say is that the UnitedStates is a real soup sandwich right now.
Nicole (00:50):
I was not familiar with that term before this episode.
Patricia (00:54):
Yeah, it's a real goat rodeo.
Nicole (00:58):
Do you, like, open the can of so...?
Do you make a big bowl of soup and tr...?
How does this sandwich go together?
Patricia (01:05):
I mean, it doesn't, and that's kind of the point of it.
Like, any way you try to make it,whether it's soup on the outside,
fillings on the inside, or if the soupis the filling, like, it's just a mess.
Nicole (01:19):
You just end up with some soggy bread.
Patricia (01:21):
It's just gonna be a mess.
Nicole (01:23):
Nobody's happy.
Patricia (01:24):
No, nobody's happy.
Nicole (01:26):
And that's the point of it all.
Patricia (01:28):
[Laughing]
Nicole (01:30):
I would go to a goat rodeo, though.
Patricia (01:32):
[Laughing] I, hmm.
Nicole (01:36):
I don't know if it would be terribly exciting, but I think
there would be some fun goat noises.
Patricia (01:42):
I feel like there'd be a lot of injuries.
Nicole (01:44):
Well, there's goats.
Patricia (01:45):
Well, yeah.
Nicole (01:45):
Someone's gonna get headbutted.
Patricia (01:47):
I mean, someone's gonna get headbutted, that's true.
Nicole (01:50):
Also, current state of the U.S.
[Laughing]
Patricia (01:53):
Yeah, someone's gonna get headbutted.
Nicole (01:55):
That would make the debate more interesting.
Patricia (01:58):
My gosh, don't get me started.
Nicole (02:01):
Oh my god.
We have a Patreon.
Patricia (02:05):
We're really trying to make a little little safe space on the internet.
Nicole (02:10):
And I guess the Patreon is the home for that.
And we now have two levels on Patreon.
I guess technically three becausepeople can just follow us.
Patricia (02:20):
People can just like follow us for free and you'll
see all the free public posts.
Nicole (02:26):
But we do have two paid subscriber levels, and we really appreciate each
and every one of those who can supportus there, both our Helpful Helpers
and our Enthusiastic Encouragers.
Patricia (02:40):
Yes.
Nicole (02:40):
And a reminder to everyone out there, if you do sign up at either
of these levels, you will receive asurvey or something that you can sign
up to receive one of our rainbow prismwindow clings, which helps just bring
a little rainbow love into your world.
Patricia (03:08):
So for this episode, I...
We're sitting here recording this podcastand I'm like, this is just still...
It feels so weird with everythinggoing on in the world to even be making
Nicole (03:19):
Our silly little show.
Patricia (03:20):
Our silly little show.
Or, I hesitate to call it art, but
Nicole (03:24):
What I'm doing here is art.
Patricia (03:26):
What, oh, clearly, yes.
Anyway.
For this episode, we're going totalk about information, primarily
misinformation, disinformation, and whatyou can do to try to sort out what is
valid information or news and what is not.
We're going to try our best tonot get too much into the weeds.
Nicole (03:49):
Now, there is a lot of both misinformation and disinformation
out there right now, trying toreally influence our behavior.
Two major sources of this, and theseare, this is not like an exhaustive list,
are politics, and this is informationcoming from both within and outside the
(04:11):
United States, and from both governmentand non government sources, but also
we receive a lot of particularlymisinformation from capitalistic sources.
These are people or businessestrying to sell you something, and
we're seeing a lot of this now,especially with people generating
(04:36):
what looks to be desired productsusing AI and then selling you junk.
Patricia (04:42):
And then selling junk once it's ordered.
And I also am thinking about, and Iknow I am, probably shouldn't say this,
but I'm also thinking about wellness,as this is a self help podcast.
Nicole (04:55):
Yeah.
Patricia (04:55):
Like, wellness is big business.
Nicole (04:57):
Wellness and health.
Patricia (04:58):
Wellness and health.
Yeah.
Nicole (05:00):
Yeah, I see a lot from health.
Patricia (05:02):
Mm hmm.
Nicole (05:03):
Especially as someone who works in healthcare.
Patricia (05:06):
Exactly.
Speaking of, why should youeven be listening to us about
misinformation and disinformation?
Like, who are we totalk about these things?
Nicole (05:17):
We're your queer aunties on the internet.
Patricia (05:20):
We're your queer aunties on the internet.
Also, though, I have a master's inlibrary and information science, and some
of the things that were my particularinterest when I was in grad school,
and even now, are information literacy.
In thinking about how people canunderstand information, I think a
(05:40):
lot about information access andhow people seek out information and
look for answers to their questions.
And I think a lot about what we'retalking about today, which is people
being able to tell the difference betweenwhat is real and what is not real.
Nicole (06:00):
I, on the other hand, am not a library sciences person.
My background is in, well, what's on mydegree, it says experimental psychology.
And what that means is my graduateeducation was particularly
focused on experimental designand methodology in psychology.
(06:20):
And for those of you who are notfamiliar with that field, you have to be
particularly rigorous when trying to studyhuman behavior, because there are a lot of
what we refer to as extraneous variablesthat can influence what you're doing.
So, I also taught as part of this researchmethodology, and I even continue to
(06:41):
work in medical research to this day.
And so I spend a lot of time thinkingabout and looking into kind of how
research is conducted, sources ofinformation, and how to assess the
validity of research and information.
Patricia (07:01):
So all that being said, we can both easily geek out on
information, how people look for it,why people believe it, and all of that.
Just to kind of keep it 100.
I want to point out the inherentwhite supremacy and colonizer
mindset that can pop up when valuingacademic knowledge over non-academic
(07:25):
knowledge and the privilege ofbeing able to earn graduate degrees.
And we are definitely trying topass on some of this knowledge.
Nicole (07:35):
But what it comes down to is we sure do know a lot about research and
information literacy, which is why we'rehere talking to you about it today.
Patricia (07:45):
If you want to learn more about some of the biases at play behind why
people believe some of these things thatthey do, I'm going to have a couple of
book recommendations later in the show.
Nicole (07:59):
This sounds like a common thing that we do now, but we've
used some terms without definingthem and we should probably really
start off this conversation bytalking about what those terms are.
Particularly, misinformationand disinformation.
Patricia (08:16):
Dictionary.com actually has a really great primer on the
definitions and differences, so I'mgoing to link that in the full show
notes that'll be on our website.
But, while we're on the show, let's startwith misinformation, which Dictionary.com
defines as false information that isspread regardless of intent to mislead.
Nicole (08:38):
Disinformation, on the other hand, is misinformation
that is spread intentionally andtypically with nefarious intent.
So this is information that someone'strying to actually do harm with.
And this is usuallyseen in the forms of...
It's spread by governments, politicalparties, propaganda, or someone trying to
(09:03):
sell you something, and things like that.
Patricia (09:06):
Yeah, so all disinformation is misinformation.
Nicole (09:11):
Correct.
Patricia (09:11):
But not all misinformation is disinformation.
It's like a circle anda square kind of thing.
No, square and rectangle.
Well, I was thinking, no, it'sa square and a rectangle, right?
Nicole (09:19):
Why did I...?
I wasn't, uh, I gotta goback and learn my shapes.
Patricia (09:22):
Shapes are hard.
Nicole (09:23):
Shapes are hard.
Patricia (09:24):
Sending you back to kindergarten.
Nicole (09:26):
That sounds lovely.
I'll have some juice andcrackers and I'll take a nap.
Patricia (09:31):
Wait, I want to go.
Nicole (09:33):
And then we'll have story time.
Patricia (09:35):
Beautiful, beautiful.
I'll meet you there.
I want to put it out there thatyou are not unintelligent or
foolish for unknowingly spreadingmisinformation or disinformation.
It's really easy to spread onlineand disinformation is meant to
be destructive and divisive evenif you share it on accident.
(09:58):
People at varying levels of educationdo it at some point, so I don't
want to sit here and say, like,well, I studied this and that.
I never do it, because I absolutelyhave unknowingly shared misinformation.
Nicole (10:14):
Oh, same.
Big same.
Okay, so, Patricia, how do we even knowif something is mis- or dis- information?
Patricia (10:25):
There are a few things that we can all do.
Once again, you don't have to go toyears of school to do these things.
There's something that iswithin all of our power to do.
And so we'll talk abouta few of 'em right now.
And then I'm, of course, goingto link to further resources for
you to find out even more waysthat you can tell the difference.
Nicole (10:48):
I think one of the first things to start with when trying
to assess whether something ismis- or dis- information is who.
Who is giving you this information?
Where is this information coming from?
What do they benefit from youbelieving it and sharing it?
Patricia (11:06):
I remember being told about, you know, you see these studies like,
oh, dark chocolate decreases your chancesof cancer and blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then you look at the sponsor forthe study and it's like Hershey's.
Nicole (11:25):
Oh, this is a whole like cottage industry.
Patricia (11:28):
Yeah.
Nicole (11:28):
This was particularly big with certain newspapers in the UK,
but they would commission a survey
Patricia (11:36):
mmmm
Nicole (11:37):
and there were companies that would like get paid to do these surveys
and then report the results and it wouldusually be like paragraph five or six or
something, would be the like tagline leadinto what is basically an advertisement,
like a hidden advertisement.
But they'd be reporting it as thoughthey were academic survey results.
(12:00):
And you, you can spot this sometimeseven in really common publications.
And it's these weird little things like,97 percent of women say they love dark
chocolate and a glass of wine an evening.
And then you look in paragraphfive is like, Jeffrey Hershey from
Hershey's says that dark chocolate.
And you're like, wait a minute.
Patricia (12:20):
Yeah, it's just like, you just have to do the smallest
amount of peeling back or digging.
Nicole (12:27):
Once you learn to spot the loose threads in these things...
Patricia (12:30):
They're so obvious.
Yeah.
I also see a lot of when we'retalking about like, who is
giving you this information?
What do they benefit from youbelieving it and sharing it?
And I see this a lot in self help, whichis why I do what I do with this podcast
with my newsletter, because I see somany things out there, like, oh, these
(12:56):
are the six signs that you have ADHD.
Listen to my show to find out.
And they don't really care ifthis is actual true information.
It's usually, even if they believe it'strue, it might just be misinformation
because they might have gotten itfrom TikTok or something like that.
But what they want you to do is listento their show, and then listen to the
(13:20):
ads, and then they get ad dollars.
And self help is so oftentrying to sell you things.
Nicole (13:28):
Yeah.
You need this new course.
Patricia (13:31):
Yeah.
Which, hey, maybe we'll have coursessomeday, but I actually want you to walk
away with it, from it, with something.
But I think it's a lot of clickbaity
Nicole (13:40):
mm hmm
Patricia (13:41):
stuff.
Nicole (13:42):
Yeah, clickbaity stuff is there to definitely carry you through
to put your eyes on advertisements.
You shared an article in the EEDAnewsletter, uh, about misinformation,
and we'll link to that in the shownotes, but there's a quote in there that
just really sticks with me, and it is,quote, "they found false information
(14:06):
is more believable if it comes fromgroups people belong to, if they judge
the source as credible, or if it stirsemotions such as fear and outrage."
Patricia (14:19):
Yeah, I am absolutely guilty of resharing something without fact checking
it because it's from a person I trust,just to eventually find out that it was
misinformation, because I didn't do my duediligence, and surprise, neither did they.
I recognize it is tediousto fact check everything.
(14:45):
And that's part of the reason it's soeasily spread to like, not everyone
is going to fact check everything.
And I think we kind of need to think aboutwhat things are worth fact checking and,
and how would sharing it add to any harm.
Nicole (15:01):
Thinking back to the kind of clickbaity-ness.
But, also, the, you know, peoplejudging information, more credible
if it stirs fear or outrage orsome sort of emotion in them.
One person I really like theircontent for this kind of thing is Dr.
Inna.
She's on TikTok and Instagram.
Patricia (15:22):
Yeah, we'll link to her profile.
Nicole (15:23):
But she's particularly adept at this with all of the, while you were
saying like self help stuff, all of thekind of people who will say things like,
psychology says, and give some, or likethe six signs of ADHD or something like
that, that have no basis, like, psychologysays if she twirls her hair while
she's talking to you, she's interested.
(15:46):
And she just has, like, this great lineof, like, psychology says no such thing.
And I really adore her for that.
And then she digs intothe research, though.
Like, she does the job of kindof fact checking for this.
Patricia (16:00):
Yeah.
And I admit, I feel like such aparty pooper every time a friend
or family member shares a coolproduct or a cool picture with me.
And I respond like, that's not real.
That's AI.
Like it, no one likes to hear that.
And I just feel like such a downer, and atthe same time, I'm like, that's not real.
(16:26):
I don't want to normalize this.
Nicole (16:28):
Yeah, we're having to get good at spotting AI stuff really, really
fast, and not everyone is adept at it.
So we do our best on this show to citeour sources, and Patricia even does it
in her newsletter, and everyone needsto kind of take that critical eye that
(16:49):
they have on April Fool's Day, and holdthat as you are browsing social media,
because there's just so much there.
Patricia (16:58):
Well, and I think you're making a good point, because so many of us, we
have these skills, we know how to do thison April Fool's Day, it's just the other
364 days of the year, or 365 if it's aleap year, it just goes out the window.
So we need to hold onto that andwe need to practice that every day.
Nicole (17:18):
Yeah, it's almost like exercise, you kind of have to exercise it to
keep that really strong and usable.
Also, like, we'll admit, we sometimesdon't catch these things right away.
There's been once or twice where, like,I've had to edit something out of this
show a day before it goes live becauseI thought I had something right, and we
(17:39):
finally fact checked it, and it wasn't.
It wasn't right at all.
And so had to, had to pull that littlesection out of what we were talking about.
Patricia (17:48):
Yeah.
When we go over our script and we talkabout things, we're constantly asking each
other, like, what's your source on that?
Nicole (17:55):
Yeah.
Getting better at that.
And not just saying,I know it in my brain.
Patricia (18:00):
It's just vibes.
[Laughing]
There are some great tips in the BreakingNews Consumer's Handbook by On The Media,
which again, I'll link in the show notes,but we're going to go over a few of them.
Nicole (18:13):
A really dark red flag, or waving red flag, I guess one would
say, is headlines that are all in caps.
Or, if a news site is using anothernews site as their source, that's
probably at least a yellow flag.
It's one of those things where like,oftentimes they're linked in the article
(18:35):
and you just kind of got to clickthrough the links a couple of times.
But if you find yourself on like awebsite that's full of banner ads and
pop up ads, and it's really like, it's,it's bogging down your computer and
it's really hard to actually determinewhere the actual news article is.
Probably not a reputable source.
(18:57):
They're probably just trying todrive traffic there to show you ads.
Which is why it's full of ads, becausethey're trying to really just make
money on showing people those ads.
Patricia (19:07):
Also, look at the URL.
Look at that domain name.
Is it a reputable news site?
Is it trying to pretend tobe a reputable news site?
Like, it has dot com and then ithas whatever, you know, abcnews.com,
but then like dot CO, dot whatever.
(19:28):
Like, is there, are thereadditional things in that URL?
Is there an about page?
On the site where you can learn moreabout the site because reputable
sites are going to have an about page.
What if you do a really easy web searchwhere you search for the name of the
site or the social media account orwhatever where you're getting this news
(19:52):
and put the word fake in the web search.
You know, whatever news siteand put fake, what comes up?
It might not necessarily be fake,but it might be heavily biased,
which is also when you're gettingyour news, another red flag.
Nicole (20:10):
Along those lines one I try to particularly look out for is like
sites that look like news websites,but they're just a little too generic.
Like, it'll just saylike, channel five news.
But there's no, like, regionattached to it or anything?
No, like, station callletters or anything?
Like, which Channel 5 news?
(20:31):
Channel 5 in LA is differentfrom Channel 5 in San Francisco.
Like, who is this?
And I think that's something thatis really kind of out there right
now, are these websites that aremade to look like news websites.
Another thing you can do ischeck the date on wherever
you're getting this information.
If it's like a screenshot of something,a lot of times people might deliberately
(20:57):
crop out the date of, say, if it's ascreenshot of a Twitter post or something.
Patricia (21:02):
Or even a screenshot of an article headline.
Nicole (21:05):
Yeah
Patricia (21:05):
Like sometimes it has a screenshot of the headline and the
leading picture, but then if there'sa date under that, they crop it out.
Nicole (21:12):
And this is really important because on social media
in particular, old news storiespop back up at the weirdest times.
The amount of times I've seen aheadline and be like, Oh, wow, that
seems like really important news.
And I find the articleand it's from like 2012.
Patricia (21:30):
Yeah, or, you know, what it'll also be, though, is
people trying to drive engagement.
Nicole (21:38):
Yeah.
Patricia (21:38):
Right.
Nicole (21:39):
The other thing I really try to do a lot is compare multiple sources.
If I see something just posted onInstagram or something that looks
like important news, I'll actuallyhead over to Google or whatever
search engine you want to be using.
A lot of times they have a news button.
You can click that.
(21:59):
And kind of use some keyword searches.
I try to see, are major newsoutlets reporting on this?
Is there an Associated Press article?
Something that can help me confirmthat this is going on and it's
not just coming from, again, like,nonspecific generic Channel 5 news.
Patricia (22:18):
And remember, that gut check.
When you read something,does it seem fishy?
And I fully recognize that not everyonehas an internal BS detector, or like
Nicole said, it's like a muscle.
You have to, you have to practice it.
And you have to kind of workthat, exercise that muscle
(22:38):
to, to get that detector.
But I think it's fine toquestion things, right?
Like if it's fishy, because,you know, sometimes you're going
to look and you're going to belike, oh, that's actually true.
Right?
Like we're not out here sayingeverything is misinformation or
everything is disinformation.
We're just saying that it is prevalent andthere are ways that we can check on this.
(22:58):
The other kind of glaring red flag is doesthis social media post, this quote, this
headline, this whatever, does it elicit areally strong emotional reaction from you?
Because if it does, then that is anotherred flag that it's like, oh, this was
(23:23):
written in a way, or this was created toget that reaction and then be shared out.
Nicole (23:29):
Again, they, they're looking to get engagement and typically to
drive you somewhere for advertisingdollars or to sell you something else.
Patricia (23:40):
Or to sell you something else.
And I think the other thing to recognize,especially in this election year,
big news brings out all the fakers.
Nicole (23:52):
Oh my gosh, we saw this so much this last weekend.
Patricia (23:55):
Big news brings out all the fakers.
Nicole (23:58):
Yeah.
Patricia (23:59):
Everyone is trying to capitalize on whatever is happening.
Nicole (24:04):
Capitalize in the truest sense of the word.
Patricia (24:07):
Yep.
Nicole (24:08):
It can be really sometimes frustrating or difficult seeing a loved
one spread myths or disinformation.
It's important to remember thatit happens to all of us, and there
are ways that you can address this.
Ideally, if this is your goal,in ways that won't lead to
(24:30):
arguments or defensiveness.
PEN America and the Los AngelesPublic Library both have really great
resources on how to talk to your familymembers about false information, and
we'll link to those in the show notes.
Patricia (24:46):
Absolutely.
They mentioned first, of course,doing your own fact checking, right?
Make sure you have all your ducks ina row before you think you're going to
go and have a crucial conversation withsomeone else about what they posted.
Nicole (25:02):
You mean my just feeling of the vibes are off?
Patricia (25:05):
The vibes are off on this, but I'm just going to start
commenting that on everything.
There is also some advice in theseresources on making a public comment
versus sending a private message.
Because if you make a public comment onsomething on social media, that is going
(25:29):
to kind of be a point of engagement andthat helps the algorithm see that, oh,
people are engaging with this thing.
We should share it more.
And sometimes making that publiccomment, even if that comment is you're
wrong, delete this, take this down.
That is just going to spreadthe information wider.
(25:51):
I also want to point out with the makinga public comment and driving engagement
is there is content out there that isdeliberately trying to make you get
in arguments in the comments becauseany engagement positive or negative is
going to get their content spread andget eyes on it and get followers and
(26:15):
get engagement and so this is why you'llsee really terrible plant advice you'll
see terrible all kinds of advice becausethey want people to jump into those
comments and say this is wrong this isterrible because they want the engagement.
Nicole (26:31):
This is even the reason behind those weird math problem
posts you see that like causepeople in the comments to argue over
whether the answer is like 7 or 42.
This is what they're doing.
They're trying to drive engagement.
Thinking about that like whether to engagewith someone in a private comment versus a
(26:51):
public comment, also remember that if youwant to actually continue to have a good
relationship with that person, repeatedlyparticularly calling out in the comments
that like this is false information,this is misinformation, you're sharing
misinformation, that may adversely impactyour relationship with that person.
(27:14):
And additionally, it's important tokeep in mind that the more closely
that information, that misinformationor disinformation, is tied to that
person's identity or culture, themore likely they are going to dig
their heels in when confronted withthe idea that that is not true.
(27:39):
Both of these things together, ifyou publicly call them out on it too,
they'll dig their heels even, in evenmore because on top of you challenging
their identity or their culture, you'realso causing them to potentially lose
face in front of their community.
And so it can be really difficult andoften take a long time and can be kind
(28:03):
of a circuitous route if you want totry to help dig people out of these
positions where they maybe are in aplace where they are spreading a lot
of misinformation or disinformationthat is particularly tied to some
aspect of their identity or culture.
It's not something you're gonna beable to kind of approach head on.
(28:26):
You're going to have to work at thisfrom a lot of small and obscure angles
to help try to dig them out by givingthem the tools they need themselves.
I'm pretty sure there'sarticles out there.
We can find them.
I remember seeing this in particularwhen it came to beliefs about vaccines.
(28:49):
But even when shown, thescientific literature, it did
not change people's beliefs.
And in fact, sometimes theydid just entrench themselves
further in their beliefs.
You can't just confrontpeople with the facts.
Sometimes you have to work withthem to give them the tools
to find their own way out.
Patricia (29:09):
Yeah, just as I've, I've said before, and I'll say again,
just because something is a teachingmoment for you does not mean it's a
learning moment for the other person.
Nicole (29:22):
I think I've heard that from a famous philosopher.
Patricia (29:28):
We cannot, unfortunately, we cannot control what other people post
online and some people don't care thatwhat they're posting might be flat
out wrong or flat out misinformationor disinformation, like some people
just don't care, which is wild to me.
(29:50):
But they'll post misattributed quotes.
They'll post, you were telling meearlier, wrong image descriptions
of archaeological things
Nicole (30:00):
mm hmm
Patricia (30:01):
and ancient art and like, people will call them out on it, and
some people will be like, well, I likethe sentiment, I like the vibe, I like
Nicole (30:10):
mm hmm
Patricia (30:11):
the, I'll be like, this is not real, well, I like how it looks.
Some people don't care that theymay be posting misinformation or
disinformation, and we can't control that.
But we can at least try to be mindful ofwhat we ourselves are putting out in the
world, especially in an election year.
Nicole (30:35):
Okay.
So what are, what are the key takeaways?
What's the TLDR on this one?
Patricia (30:41):
So I think for mine, I'm going to say sharing misinformation
is unfortunately really easy.
We all do it at some point andit's not a sign of unintelligence.
Nicole (30:53):
I want you to take away to try to be mindful of what information you
are putting out in the world, but alsobe mindful of the information you're
taking in and try to assess that as well.
(31:14):
Patricia, you mentioned a book at the top.
Patricia (31:17):
Yeah, I have a couple of books actually.
The first one is Thinking101: How to Reason Better to
Live Better by Woo-Kyoung Ahn.
And I believe she is a Yaleprofessor and she teaches a lot
about all kinds of cognitive biases.
And, you know, she talks aboutthe fluency bias, I think.
(31:40):
So that one is she showed her studentsa, I think, K pop dance video.
And she showed the video, she showedit a couple of times, and she said to
her class like, okay, who thinks youcan get up here and do these dances?
And it's this kind of fallacy thatyou see something and someone does
(32:03):
it so well, it looks easy, andso you think that you can do it.
Nicole (32:06):
mmmmm
Patricia (32:07):
She goes over confirmation bias, she goes over all kinds of things,
because sometimes you're like, wow, howcan people even believe these things.
And so, Thinking 101 by Woo-KyoungAhn talks about all of the biases
behind or some of the biases behindwhy people believe what they believe.
The other book is an older book.
(32:30):
It might be from likethe fifties or something.
So some of the examplesare really outdated.
Some might even be, uh, I mean,definitely not politically correct,
some of the examples, because thiswas written in the fifties, maybe.
But this book is titled How toLie with Statistics by Darrell
(32:53):
Huff, illustrated by Irving Geis.
This book is a very short book.
I read it years ago and I havegiven this book to so many people.
My nickname for this bookis How to Not Be Foolish.
That's, that's what I call this book.
And it was especially helpful when, youknow, infographics had like a really big
(33:18):
thing, like 10 years ago, like everythingwas being made into an infographic.
And this book, even though it waswritten seventy years ago, talks about
ways that imagery can be misleadingwhen you're talking about statistics
and the differences, like, you know,one of the things, one of the arguments
right now, he doesn't talk about thisin the book, but it's something I think
(33:40):
about is police violence and sayingpeople arguing, well, police actually
kill more white people when they'relooking at like the full numbers
Nicole (33:50):
absolute numbers
Patricia (33:51):
of people.
But actually, what you needto look at is the proportion.
Nicole (33:55):
Yeah.
Patricia (33:55):
The proportion, and people don't know that.
And this book helps you understand that.
Again, it's How to Lie with Statisticsby Darrell Huff, and we will link
both these books in the show notes.
Nicole (34:09):
I think I'm gonna have to put that Thinking 101 on my, see
if I can get that from the library.
Patricia (34:14):
Yeah, you could get it from the library.
We also have a physical copy.
Nicole (34:18):
Okay, Patricia.
What is filling your cup?
Patricia (34:24):
Books!
Surprising, no one.
Specifically, we recentlywent to a book event.
We went to the book launch for theYA graphic novel, The Worst Ronin,
by Maggie Tokuda-Hall, who is lovely.
And that was something thatbecause of the pandemic, we weren't
(34:47):
going to a lot of book events.
And we're slowly very, bothdeliberately in feeling about the
ways in which we feel safe or not,we're still masking everywhere.
But it's like, oh, here'sa book event by a friend.
And we went and it was lovely.
We got to see another friendthere, which was also great.
(35:07):
And I just miss going to bookevents and I want to do more of it.
And that is filling my cup right now.
Nicole (35:15):
We weren't the only people masked there either.
Patricia (35:17):
We weren't the only people masked there either.
Yeah.
Nicole (35:19):
It was great.
Patricia (35:20):
Nicole, what's filling your cup?
Nicole (35:22):
Books, she says, as we record, in a room surrounded by books.
To her wife, who said, books.
For me particularly, I got reallyexcited as we were prepping for
this episode, and I realized thatjust as the month of June ended, I
(35:46):
surpassed fifty books read this year.
I've already read, like,51, 52 books at this point.
I'm on track to maybe break 100 thisyear, and I'm very excited about that.
Patricia (35:59):
That is really impressive, especially for
someone who books aren't your job.
Nicole (36:05):
No, books are not my job.
Patricia (36:07):
Like, that's, that's really impressive.
Nicole (36:10):
Books are just that thing I do.
Patricia (36:13):
I love it.
This is why we're married.
Nicole (36:15):
Yeah.
Patricia (36:16):
Well, that's our show for today.
We'd like to thank our awesomeaudio editor, Jen Zink.
You can find her at loopdilou.com,and we'll leave a link to
that in our show notes.
Nicole (36:26):
You can find the full show notes and transcript at eedapod.com.
That's E E D A P O D dot com.
There, you can also find a link to ourPatreon, our Bookshop link, and a link
to the ongoing Enthusiastic Encouragementand Dubious Advice newsletter.
You can also find us on Instagramand BlueSky at eedapod and
(36:50):
email us at eedapod@gmail.com.
Patricia (36:53):
We are nothing if not consistent.
Nicole (36:55):
We would also appreciate it so much if you would subscribe
and rate us on Apple Podcasts,Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you
get your podcasts that allow ratings.
It really does help other people find us.
Patricia (37:10):
We would also appreciate anyone who could subscribe to us on Patreon.
Support is going to help us keep thisshow going, especially without ads.
You can find us at patreon.com/eedapod.
In the meantime, we hope youfind ways to be kind to yourself.
Drink some water and read a book.
We'll be talking to you soon.
Nicole (37:32):
All I can think about when we talk about misinformation is a show
I watched as a kid called Hysteria,and there was a tour guide taking
kids on a tour through history,and her name was Miss Information.
Hey brats.
Welcome to Enthusiastic Encouragementand Dubious Advice the podcast for
folks who would rather curl intothe fetal position than lean in.
I'm your host, Patricia Elzie-Tuttle.
Nicole (00:26):
And I didn't fact check that, Nicole Elzie-Tuttle.
We are recording thisshow on July 15th, 2024.
Patricia (00:34):
Well, a lot has happened in the world and this nation
since we last recorded a show.
And all I can say is that the UnitedStates is a real soup sandwich right now.
Nicole (00:50):
I was not familiar with that term before this episode.
Patricia (00:54):
Yeah, it's a real goat rodeo.
Nicole (00:58):
Do you, like, open the can of so...?
Do you make a big bowl of soup and tr...?
How does this sandwich go together?
Patricia (01:05):
I mean, it doesn't, and that's kind of the point of it.
Like, any way you try to make it,whether it's soup on the outside,
fillings on the inside, or if the soupis the filling, like, it's just a mess.
Nicole (01:19):
You just end up with some soggy bread.
Patricia (01:21):
It's just gonna be a mess.
Nicole (01:23):
Nobody's happy.
Patricia (01:24):
No, nobody's happy.
Nicole (01:26):
And that's the point of it all.
Patricia (01:28):
[Laughing]
Nicole (01:30):
I would go to a goat rodeo, though.
Patricia (01:32):
[Laughing] I, hmm.
Nicole (01:36):
I don't know if it would be terribly exciting, but I think
there would be some fun goat noises.
Patricia (01:42):
I feel like there'd be a lot of injuries.
Nicole (01:44):
Well, there's goats.
Patricia (01:45):
Well, yeah.
Nicole (01:45):
Someone's gonna get headbutted.
Patricia (01:47):
I mean, someone's gonna get headbutted, that's true.
Nicole (01:50):
Also, current state of the U.S.
[Laughing]
Patricia (01:53):
Yeah, someone's gonna get headbutted.
Nicole (01:55):
That would make the debate more interesting.
Patricia (01:58):
My gosh, don't get me started.
Nicole (02:01):
Oh my god.
We have a Patreon.
Patricia (02:05):
We're really trying to make a little little safe space on the internet.
Nicole (02:10):
And I guess the Patreon is the home for that.
And we now have two levels on Patreon.
I guess technically three becausepeople can just follow us.
Patricia (02:20):
People can just like follow us for free and you'll
see all the free public posts.
Nicole (02:26):
But we do have two paid subscriber levels, and we really appreciate each
and every one of those who can supportus there, both our Helpful Helpers
and our Enthusiastic Encouragers.
Patricia (02:40):
Yes.
Nicole (02:40):
And a reminder to everyone out there, if you do sign up at either
of these levels, you will receive asurvey or something that you can sign
up to receive one of our rainbow prismwindow clings, which helps just bring
a little rainbow love into your world.
Patricia (03:08):
So for this episode, I...
We're sitting here recording this podcastand I'm like, this is just still...
It feels so weird with everythinggoing on in the world to even be making
Nicole (03:19):
Our silly little show.
Patricia (03:20):
Our silly little show.
Or, I hesitate to call it art, but
Nicole (03:24):
What I'm doing here is art.
Patricia (03:26):
What, oh, clearly, yes.
Anyway.
For this episode, we're going totalk about information, primarily
misinformation, disinformation, and whatyou can do to try to sort out what is
valid information or news and what is not.
We're going to try our best tonot get too much into the weeds.
Nicole (03:49):
Now, there is a lot of both misinformation and disinformation
out there right now, trying toreally influence our behavior.
Two major sources of this, and theseare, this is not like an exhaustive list,
are politics, and this is informationcoming from both within and outside the
(04:11):
United States, and from both governmentand non government sources, but also
we receive a lot of particularlymisinformation from capitalistic sources.
These are people or businessestrying to sell you something, and
we're seeing a lot of this now,especially with people generating
(04:36):
what looks to be desired productsusing AI and then selling you junk.
Patricia (04:42):
And then selling junk once it's ordered.
And I also am thinking about, and Iknow I am, probably shouldn't say this,
but I'm also thinking about wellness,as this is a self help podcast.
Nicole (04:55):
Yeah.
Patricia (04:55):
Like, wellness is big business.
Nicole (04:57):
Wellness and health.
Patricia (04:58):
Wellness and health.
Yeah.
Nicole (05:00):
Yeah, I see a lot from health.
Patricia (05:02):
Mm hmm.
Nicole (05:03):
Especially as someone who works in healthcare.
Patricia (05:06):
Exactly.
Speaking of, why should youeven be listening to us about
misinformation and disinformation?
Like, who are we totalk about these things?
Nicole (05:17):
We're your queer aunties on the internet.
Patricia (05:20):
We're your queer aunties on the internet.
Also, though, I have a master's inlibrary and information science, and some
of the things that were my particularinterest when I was in grad school,
and even now, are information literacy.
In thinking about how people canunderstand information, I think a
(05:40):
lot about information access andhow people seek out information and
look for answers to their questions.
And I think a lot about what we'retalking about today, which is people
being able to tell the difference betweenwhat is real and what is not real.
Nicole (06:00):
I, on the other hand, am not a library sciences person.
My background is in, well, what's on mydegree, it says experimental psychology.
And what that means is my graduateeducation was particularly
focused on experimental designand methodology in psychology.
(06:20):
And for those of you who are notfamiliar with that field, you have to be
particularly rigorous when trying to studyhuman behavior, because there are a lot of
what we refer to as extraneous variablesthat can influence what you're doing.
So, I also taught as part of this researchmethodology, and I even continue to
(06:41):
work in medical research to this day.
And so I spend a lot of time thinkingabout and looking into kind of how
research is conducted, sources ofinformation, and how to assess the
validity of research and information.
Patricia (07:01):
So all that being said, we can both easily geek out on
information, how people look for it,why people believe it, and all of that.
Just to kind of keep it 100.
I want to point out the inherentwhite supremacy and colonizer
mindset that can pop up when valuingacademic knowledge over non-academic
(07:25):
knowledge and the privilege ofbeing able to earn graduate degrees.
And we are definitely trying topass on some of this knowledge.
Nicole (07:35):
But what it comes down to is we sure do know a lot about research and
information literacy, which is why we'rehere talking to you about it today.
Patricia (07:45):
If you want to learn more about some of the biases at play behind why
people believe some of these things thatthey do, I'm going to have a couple of
book recommendations later in the show.
Nicole (07:59):
This sounds like a common thing that we do now, but we've
used some terms without definingthem and we should probably really
start off this conversation bytalking about what those terms are.
Particularly, misinformationand disinformation.
Patricia (08:16):
Dictionary.com actually has a really great primer on the
definitions and differences, so I'mgoing to link that in the full show
notes that'll be on our website.
But, while we're on the show, let's startwith misinformation, which Dictionary.com
defines as false information that isspread regardless of intent to mislead.
Nicole (08:38):
Disinformation, on the other hand, is misinformation
that is spread intentionally andtypically with nefarious intent.
So this is information that someone'strying to actually do harm with.
And this is usuallyseen in the forms of...
It's spread by governments, politicalparties, propaganda, or someone trying to
(09:03):
sell you something, and things like that.
Patricia (09:06):
Yeah, so all disinformation is misinformation.
Nicole (09:11):
Correct.
Patricia (09:11):
But not all misinformation is disinformation.
It's like a circle anda square kind of thing.
No, square and rectangle.
Well, I was thinking, no, it'sa square and a rectangle, right?
Nicole (09:19):
Why did I...?
I wasn't, uh, I gotta goback and learn my shapes.
Patricia (09:22):
Shapes are hard.
Nicole (09:23):
Shapes are hard.
Patricia (09:24):
Sending you back to kindergarten.
Nicole (09:26):
That sounds lovely.
I'll have some juice andcrackers and I'll take a nap.
Patricia (09:31):
Wait, I want to go.
Nicole (09:33):
And then we'll have story time.
Patricia (09:35):
Beautiful, beautiful.
I'll meet you there.
I want to put it out there thatyou are not unintelligent or
foolish for unknowingly spreadingmisinformation or disinformation.
It's really easy to spread onlineand disinformation is meant to
be destructive and divisive evenif you share it on accident.
(09:58):
People at varying levels of educationdo it at some point, so I don't
want to sit here and say, like,well, I studied this and that.
I never do it, because I absolutelyhave unknowingly shared misinformation.
Nicole (10:14):
Oh, same.
Big same.
Okay, so, Patricia, how do we even knowif something is mis- or dis- information?
Patricia (10:25):
There are a few things that we can all do.
Once again, you don't have to go toyears of school to do these things.
There's something that iswithin all of our power to do.
And so we'll talk abouta few of 'em right now.
And then I'm, of course, goingto link to further resources for
you to find out even more waysthat you can tell the difference.
Nicole (10:48):
I think one of the first things to start with when trying
to assess whether something ismis- or dis- information is who.
Who is giving you this information?
Where is this information coming from?
What do they benefit from youbelieving it and sharing it?
Patricia (11:06):
I remember being told about, you know, you see these studies like,
oh, dark chocolate decreases your chancesof cancer and blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then you look at the sponsor forthe study and it's like Hershey's.
Nicole (11:25):
Oh, this is a whole like cottage industry.
Patricia (11:28):
Yeah.
Nicole (11:28):
This was particularly big with certain newspapers in the UK,
but they would commission a survey
Patricia (11:36):
mmmm
Nicole (11:37):
and there were companies that would like get paid to do these surveys
and then report the results and it wouldusually be like paragraph five or six or
something, would be the like tagline leadinto what is basically an advertisement,
like a hidden advertisement.
But they'd be reporting it as thoughthey were academic survey results.
(12:00):
And you, you can spot this sometimeseven in really common publications.
And it's these weird little things like,97 percent of women say they love dark
chocolate and a glass of wine an evening.
And then you look in paragraphfive is like, Jeffrey Hershey from
Hershey's says that dark chocolate.
And you're like, wait a minute.
Patricia (12:20):
Yeah, it's just like, you just have to do the smallest
amount of peeling back or digging.
Nicole (12:27):
Once you learn to spot the loose threads in these things...
Patricia (12:30):
They're so obvious.
Yeah.
I also see a lot of when we'retalking about like, who is
giving you this information?
What do they benefit from youbelieving it and sharing it?
And I see this a lot in self help, whichis why I do what I do with this podcast
with my newsletter, because I see somany things out there, like, oh, these
(12:56):
are the six signs that you have ADHD.
Listen to my show to find out.
And they don't really care ifthis is actual true information.
It's usually, even if they believe it'strue, it might just be misinformation
because they might have gotten itfrom TikTok or something like that.
But what they want you to do is listento their show, and then listen to the
(13:20):
ads, and then they get ad dollars.
And self help is so oftentrying to sell you things.
Nicole (13:28):
Yeah.
You need this new course.
Patricia (13:31):
Yeah.
Which, hey, maybe we'll have coursessomeday, but I actually want you to walk
away with it, from it, with something.
But I think it's a lot of clickbaity
Nicole (13:40):
mm hmm
Patricia (13:41):
stuff.
Nicole (13:42):
Yeah, clickbaity stuff is there to definitely carry you through
to put your eyes on advertisements.
You shared an article in the EEDAnewsletter, uh, about misinformation,
and we'll link to that in the shownotes, but there's a quote in there that
just really sticks with me, and it is,quote, "they found false information
(14:06):
is more believable if it comes fromgroups people belong to, if they judge
the source as credible, or if it stirsemotions such as fear and outrage."
Patricia (14:19):
Yeah, I am absolutely guilty of resharing something without fact checking
it because it's from a person I trust,just to eventually find out that it was
misinformation, because I didn't do my duediligence, and surprise, neither did they.
I recognize it is tediousto fact check everything.
(14:45):
And that's part of the reason it's soeasily spread to like, not everyone
is going to fact check everything.
And I think we kind of need to think aboutwhat things are worth fact checking and,
and how would sharing it add to any harm.
Nicole (15:01):
Thinking back to the kind of clickbaity-ness.
But, also, the, you know, peoplejudging information, more credible
if it stirs fear or outrage orsome sort of emotion in them.
One person I really like theircontent for this kind of thing is Dr.
Inna.
She's on TikTok and Instagram.
Patricia (15:22):
Yeah, we'll link to her profile.
Nicole (15:23):
But she's particularly adept at this with all of the, while you were
saying like self help stuff, all of thekind of people who will say things like,
psychology says, and give some, or likethe six signs of ADHD or something like
that, that have no basis, like, psychologysays if she twirls her hair while
she's talking to you, she's interested.
(15:46):
And she just has, like, this great lineof, like, psychology says no such thing.
And I really adore her for that.
And then she digs intothe research, though.
Like, she does the job of kindof fact checking for this.
Patricia (16:00):
Yeah.
And I admit, I feel like such aparty pooper every time a friend
or family member shares a coolproduct or a cool picture with me.
And I respond like, that's not real.
That's AI.
Like it, no one likes to hear that.
And I just feel like such a downer, and atthe same time, I'm like, that's not real.
(16:26):
I don't want to normalize this.
Nicole (16:28):
Yeah, we're having to get good at spotting AI stuff really, really
fast, and not everyone is adept at it.
So we do our best on this show to citeour sources, and Patricia even does it
in her newsletter, and everyone needsto kind of take that critical eye that
(16:49):
they have on April Fool's Day, and holdthat as you are browsing social media,
because there's just so much there.
Patricia (16:58):
Well, and I think you're making a good point, because so many of us, we
have these skills, we know how to do thison April Fool's Day, it's just the other
364 days of the year, or 365 if it's aleap year, it just goes out the window.
So we need to hold onto that andwe need to practice that every day.
Nicole (17:18):
Yeah, it's almost like exercise, you kind of have to exercise it to
keep that really strong and usable.
Also, like, we'll admit, we sometimesdon't catch these things right away.
There's been once or twice where, like,I've had to edit something out of this
show a day before it goes live becauseI thought I had something right, and we
(17:39):
finally fact checked it, and it wasn't.
It wasn't right at all.
And so had to, had to pull that littlesection out of what we were talking about.
Patricia (17:48):
Yeah.
When we go over our script and we talkabout things, we're constantly asking each
other, like, what's your source on that?
Nicole (17:55):
Yeah.
Getting better at that.
And not just saying,I know it in my brain.
Patricia (18:00):
It's just vibes.
[Laughing]
There are some great tips in the BreakingNews Consumer's Handbook by On The Media,
which again, I'll link in the show notes,but we're going to go over a few of them.
Nicole (18:13):
A really dark red flag, or waving red flag, I guess one would
say, is headlines that are all in caps.
Or, if a news site is using anothernews site as their source, that's
probably at least a yellow flag.
It's one of those things where like,oftentimes they're linked in the article
(18:35):
and you just kind of got to clickthrough the links a couple of times.
But if you find yourself on like awebsite that's full of banner ads and
pop up ads, and it's really like, it's,it's bogging down your computer and
it's really hard to actually determinewhere the actual news article is.
Probably not a reputable source.
(18:57):
They're probably just trying todrive traffic there to show you ads.
Which is why it's full of ads, becausethey're trying to really just make
money on showing people those ads.
Patricia (19:07):
Also, look at the URL.
Look at that domain name.
Is it a reputable news site?
Is it trying to pretend tobe a reputable news site?
Like, it has dot com and then ithas whatever, you know, abcnews.com,
but then like dot CO, dot whatever.
(19:28):
Like, is there, are thereadditional things in that URL?
Is there an about page?
On the site where you can learn moreabout the site because reputable
sites are going to have an about page.
What if you do a really easy web searchwhere you search for the name of the
site or the social media account orwhatever where you're getting this news
(19:52):
and put the word fake in the web search.
You know, whatever news siteand put fake, what comes up?
It might not necessarily be fake,but it might be heavily biased,
which is also when you're gettingyour news, another red flag.
Nicole (20:10):
Along those lines one I try to particularly look out for is like
sites that look like news websites,but they're just a little too generic.
Like, it'll just saylike, channel five news.
But there's no, like, regionattached to it or anything?
No, like, station callletters or anything?
Like, which Channel 5 news?
(20:31):
Channel 5 in LA is differentfrom Channel 5 in San Francisco.
Like, who is this?
And I think that's something thatis really kind of out there right
now, are these websites that aremade to look like news websites.
Another thing you can do ischeck the date on wherever
you're getting this information.
If it's like a screenshot of something,a lot of times people might deliberately
(20:57):
crop out the date of, say, if it's ascreenshot of a Twitter post or something.
Patricia (21:02):
Or even a screenshot of an article headline.
Nicole (21:05):
Yeah
Patricia (21:05):
Like sometimes it has a screenshot of the headline and the
leading picture, but then if there'sa date under that, they crop it out.
Nicole (21:12):
And this is really important because on social media
in particular, old news storiespop back up at the weirdest times.
The amount of times I've seen aheadline and be like, Oh, wow, that
seems like really important news.
And I find the articleand it's from like 2012.
Patricia (21:30):
Yeah, or, you know, what it'll also be, though, is
people trying to drive engagement.
Nicole (21:38):
Yeah.
Patricia (21:38):
Right.
Nicole (21:39):
The other thing I really try to do a lot is compare multiple sources.
If I see something just posted onInstagram or something that looks
like important news, I'll actuallyhead over to Google or whatever
search engine you want to be using.
A lot of times they have a news button.
You can click that.
(21:59):
And kind of use some keyword searches.
I try to see, are major newsoutlets reporting on this?
Is there an Associated Press article?
Something that can help me confirmthat this is going on and it's
not just coming from, again, like,nonspecific generic Channel 5 news.
Patricia (22:18):
And remember, that gut check.
When you read something,does it seem fishy?
And I fully recognize that not everyonehas an internal BS detector, or like
Nicole said, it's like a muscle.
You have to, you have to practice it.
And you have to kind of workthat, exercise that muscle
(22:38):
to, to get that detector.
But I think it's fine toquestion things, right?
Like if it's fishy, because,you know, sometimes you're going
to look and you're going to belike, oh, that's actually true.
Right?
Like we're not out here sayingeverything is misinformation or
everything is disinformation.
We're just saying that it is prevalent andthere are ways that we can check on this.
(22:58):
The other kind of glaring red flag is doesthis social media post, this quote, this
headline, this whatever, does it elicit areally strong emotional reaction from you?
Because if it does, then that is anotherred flag that it's like, oh, this was
(23:23):
written in a way, or this was created toget that reaction and then be shared out.
Nicole (23:29):
Again, they, they're looking to get engagement and typically to
drive you somewhere for advertisingdollars or to sell you something else.
Patricia (23:40):
Or to sell you something else.
And I think the other thing to recognize,especially in this election year,
big news brings out all the fakers.
Nicole (23:52):
Oh my gosh, we saw this so much this last weekend.
Patricia (23:55):
Big news brings out all the fakers.
Nicole (23:58):
Yeah.
Patricia (23:59):
Everyone is trying to capitalize on whatever is happening.
Nicole (24:04):
Capitalize in the truest sense of the word.
Patricia (24:07):
Yep.
Nicole (24:08):
It can be really sometimes frustrating or difficult seeing a loved
one spread myths or disinformation.
It's important to remember thatit happens to all of us, and there
are ways that you can address this.
Ideally, if this is your goal,in ways that won't lead to
(24:30):
arguments or defensiveness.
PEN America and the Los AngelesPublic Library both have really great
resources on how to talk to your familymembers about false information, and
we'll link to those in the show notes.
Patricia (24:46):
Absolutely.
They mentioned first, of course,doing your own fact checking, right?
Make sure you have all your ducks ina row before you think you're going to
go and have a crucial conversation withsomeone else about what they posted.
Nicole (25:02):
You mean my just feeling of the vibes are off?
Patricia (25:05):
The vibes are off on this, but I'm just going to start
commenting that on everything.
There is also some advice in theseresources on making a public comment
versus sending a private message.
Because if you make a public comment onsomething on social media, that is going
(25:29):
to kind of be a point of engagement andthat helps the algorithm see that, oh,
people are engaging with this thing.
We should share it more.
And sometimes making that publiccomment, even if that comment is you're
wrong, delete this, take this down.
That is just going to spreadthe information wider.
(25:51):
I also want to point out with the makinga public comment and driving engagement
is there is content out there that isdeliberately trying to make you get
in arguments in the comments becauseany engagement positive or negative is
going to get their content spread andget eyes on it and get followers and
(26:15):
get engagement and so this is why you'llsee really terrible plant advice you'll
see terrible all kinds of advice becausethey want people to jump into those
comments and say this is wrong this isterrible because they want the engagement.
Nicole (26:31):
This is even the reason behind those weird math problem
posts you see that like causepeople in the comments to argue over
whether the answer is like 7 or 42.
This is what they're doing.
They're trying to drive engagement.
Thinking about that like whether to engagewith someone in a private comment versus a
(26:51):
public comment, also remember that if youwant to actually continue to have a good
relationship with that person, repeatedlyparticularly calling out in the comments
that like this is false information,this is misinformation, you're sharing
misinformation, that may adversely impactyour relationship with that person.
(27:14):
And additionally, it's important tokeep in mind that the more closely
that information, that misinformationor disinformation, is tied to that
person's identity or culture, themore likely they are going to dig
their heels in when confronted withthe idea that that is not true.
(27:39):
Both of these things together, ifyou publicly call them out on it too,
they'll dig their heels even, in evenmore because on top of you challenging
their identity or their culture, you'realso causing them to potentially lose
face in front of their community.
And so it can be really difficult andoften take a long time and can be kind
(28:03):
of a circuitous route if you want totry to help dig people out of these
positions where they maybe are in aplace where they are spreading a lot
of misinformation or disinformationthat is particularly tied to some
aspect of their identity or culture.
It's not something you're gonna beable to kind of approach head on.
(28:26):
You're going to have to work at thisfrom a lot of small and obscure angles
to help try to dig them out by givingthem the tools they need themselves.
I'm pretty sure there'sarticles out there.
We can find them.
I remember seeing this in particularwhen it came to beliefs about vaccines.
(28:49):
But even when shown, thescientific literature, it did
not change people's beliefs.
And in fact, sometimes theydid just entrench themselves
further in their beliefs.
You can't just confrontpeople with the facts.
Sometimes you have to work withthem to give them the tools
to find their own way out.
Patricia (29:09):
Yeah, just as I've, I've said before, and I'll say again,
just because something is a teachingmoment for you does not mean it's a
learning moment for the other person.
Nicole (29:22):
I think I've heard that from a famous philosopher.
Patricia (29:28):
We cannot, unfortunately, we cannot control what other people post
online and some people don't care thatwhat they're posting might be flat
out wrong or flat out misinformationor disinformation, like some people
just don't care, which is wild to me.
(29:50):
But they'll post misattributed quotes.
They'll post, you were telling meearlier, wrong image descriptions
of archaeological things
Nicole (30:00):
mm hmm
Patricia (30:01):
and ancient art and like, people will call them out on it, and
some people will be like, well, I likethe sentiment, I like the vibe, I like
Nicole (30:10):
mm hmm
Patricia (30:11):
the, I'll be like, this is not real, well, I like how it looks.
Some people don't care that theymay be posting misinformation or
disinformation, and we can't control that.
But we can at least try to be mindful ofwhat we ourselves are putting out in the
world, especially in an election year.
Nicole (30:35):
Okay.
So what are, what are the key takeaways?
What's the TLDR on this one?
Patricia (30:41):
So I think for mine, I'm going to say sharing misinformation
is unfortunately really easy.
We all do it at some point andit's not a sign of unintelligence.
Nicole (30:53):
I want you to take away to try to be mindful of what information you
are putting out in the world, but alsobe mindful of the information you're
taking in and try to assess that as well.
(31:14):
Patricia, you mentioned a book at the top.
Patricia (31:17):
Yeah, I have a couple of books actually.
The first one is Thinking101: How to Reason Better to
Live Better by Woo-Kyoung Ahn.
And I believe she is a Yaleprofessor and she teaches a lot
about all kinds of cognitive biases.
And, you know, she talks aboutthe fluency bias, I think.
(31:40):
So that one is she showed her studentsa, I think, K pop dance video.
And she showed the video, she showedit a couple of times, and she said to
her class like, okay, who thinks youcan get up here and do these dances?
And it's this kind of fallacy thatyou see something and someone does
(32:03):
it so well, it looks easy, andso you think that you can do it.
Nicole (32:06):
mmmmm
Patricia (32:07):
She goes over confirmation bias, she goes over all kinds of things,
because sometimes you're like, wow, howcan people even believe these things.
And so, Thinking 101 by Woo-KyoungAhn talks about all of the biases
behind or some of the biases behindwhy people believe what they believe.
The other book is an older book.
(32:30):
It might be from likethe fifties or something.
So some of the examplesare really outdated.
Some might even be, uh, I mean,definitely not politically correct,
some of the examples, because thiswas written in the fifties, maybe.
But this book is titled How toLie with Statistics by Darrell
(32:53):
Huff, illustrated by Irving Geis.
This book is a very short book.
I read it years ago and I havegiven this book to so many people.
My nickname for this bookis How to Not Be Foolish.
That's, that's what I call this book.
And it was especially helpful when, youknow, infographics had like a really big
(33:18):
thing, like 10 years ago, like everythingwas being made into an infographic.
And this book, even though it waswritten seventy years ago, talks about
ways that imagery can be misleadingwhen you're talking about statistics
and the differences, like, you know,one of the things, one of the arguments
right now, he doesn't talk about thisin the book, but it's something I think
(33:40):
about is police violence and sayingpeople arguing, well, police actually
kill more white people when they'relooking at like the full numbers
Nicole (33:50):
absolute numbers
Patricia (33:51):
of people.
But actually, what you needto look at is the proportion.
Nicole (33:55):
Yeah.
Patricia (33:55):
The proportion, and people don't know that.
And this book helps you understand that.
Again, it's How to Lie with Statisticsby Darrell Huff, and we will link
both these books in the show notes.
Nicole (34:09):
I think I'm gonna have to put that Thinking 101 on my, see
if I can get that from the library.
Patricia (34:14):
Yeah, you could get it from the library.
We also have a physical copy.
Nicole (34:18):
Okay, Patricia.
What is filling your cup?
Patricia (34:24):
Books!
Surprising, no one.
Specifically, we recentlywent to a book event.
We went to the book launch for theYA graphic novel, The Worst Ronin,
by Maggie Tokuda-Hall, who is lovely.
And that was something thatbecause of the pandemic, we weren't
(34:47):
going to a lot of book events.
And we're slowly very, bothdeliberately in feeling about the
ways in which we feel safe or not,we're still masking everywhere.
But it's like, oh, here'sa book event by a friend.
And we went and it was lovely.
We got to see another friendthere, which was also great.
(35:07):
And I just miss going to bookevents and I want to do more of it.
And that is filling my cup right now.
Nicole (35:15):
We weren't the only people masked there either.
Patricia (35:17):
We weren't the only people masked there either.
Yeah.
Nicole (35:19):
It was great.
Patricia (35:20):
Nicole, what's filling your cup?
Nicole (35:22):
Books, she says, as we record, in a room surrounded by books.
To her wife, who said, books.
For me particularly, I got reallyexcited as we were prepping for
this episode, and I realized thatjust as the month of June ended, I
(35:46):
surpassed fifty books read this year.
I've already read, like,51, 52 books at this point.
I'm on track to maybe break 100 thisyear, and I'm very excited about that.
Patricia (35:59):
That is really impressive, especially for
someone who books aren't your job.
Nicole (36:05):
No, books are not my job.
Patricia (36:07):
Like, that's, that's really impressive.
Nicole (36:10):
Books are just that thing I do.
Patricia (36:13):
I love it.
This is why we're married.
Nicole (36:15):
Yeah.
Patricia (36:16):
Well, that's our show for today.
We'd like to thank our awesomeaudio editor, Jen Zink.
You can find her at loopdilou.com,and we'll leave a link to
that in our show notes.
Nicole (36:26):
You can find the full show notes and transcript at eedapod.com.
That's E E D A P O D dot com.
There, you can also find a link to ourPatreon, our Bookshop link, and a link
to the ongoing Enthusiastic Encouragementand Dubious Advice newsletter.
You can also find us on Instagramand BlueSky at eedapod and
(36:50):
email us at eedapod@gmail.com.
Patricia (36:53):
We are nothing if not consistent.
Nicole (36:55):
We would also appreciate it so much if you would subscribe
and rate us on Apple Podcasts,Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you
get your podcasts that allow ratings.
It really does help other people find us.
Patricia (37:10):
We would also appreciate anyone who could subscribe to us on Patreon.
Support is going to help us keep thisshow going, especially without ads.
You can find us at patreon.com/eedapod.
In the meantime, we hope youfind ways to be kind to yourself.
Drink some water and read a book.
We'll be talking to you soon.
Nicole (37:32):
All I can think about when we talk about misinformation is a show
I watched as a kid called Hysteria,and there was a tour guide taking
kids on a tour through history,and her name was Miss Information.
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