October 2, 2024 • 39 mins
This week we chat about how it is impossible to be fully ethical consumers under capitalism, colonialism, patriarchy, and white supremacy. These systems are actually dependent on unethical practices. Folks on the left can absolutely tie ourselves in knots trying to make every single choice be “the right one.” We also talk about the weird (and gross) moralizing that sometimes accompanies the privilege of being able to afford the seemingly “most ethical” options.
Mentioned on the show:
-
How to Find a Therapist, Especially if You’re Queer or BIPOC via EEDA Pod
-
Live Nourished: Make Peace with Food, Banish Body Shame, and Reclaim Joy by Shana Minei Spence
-
Wallet Activism: How to Use Every Dollar You Spend, Earn, and Save as a Force for Change by Tanja Hester
Find the full show notes and official transcript on our website: eedapod.com
Become a patron! Patreon.com/eedapod
Follow the show on Instagram & find us on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, & Spotify
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Sound editing by Jen Zink
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Music (00:00):
[Intro Music]
Patricia (00:15):
Hello, Monsters!
Welcome to Enthusiastic Encouragementand Dubious Advice, the podcast for
folks who would rather curl intothe fetal position than lean in.
I'm your host, Patricia Elzie-Tuttle.
Nicole (00:26):
And I'm the sugar to your salt, Nicole Elzie-Tuttle.
We are recording the showon September 24th, 2024.
Patricia (00:35):
Happy autumn, everyone!
Nicole (00:36):
It's autumn!
I mean, in my brain it's been autumnsince the start of September, maybe
even part of August, but you keeptelling me that that's summertime still.
Patricia (00:45):
Yeah.
I mean, okay, so, I recognize we're alsobeing very centered on where we are.
It is autumn where we are, andour friends in the Southern
Hemisphere, it is springtime.
Nicole (00:57):
Yes.
Patricia (00:57):
So, happy spring.
Nicole (00:58):
Because we just had...
We just had an Equinox?
Patricia (01:01):
Yes.
Nicole (01:01):
And that's how you divide the seasons?
Patricia (01:04):
Spring equinox, fall equinox.
Nicole (01:06):
And then the solstices.
Patricia (01:07):
And then the solstices.
Solstices?
Nicole (01:10):
Solstici.
Patricia (01:11):
Solstici.
Nicole (01:12):
I don't know.
I go off seasonal vibes, so.
Patricia (01:16):
I know, you've just been saying it's summer, it's summer, it's summer,
and then you said it was like autumn amonth ago, but now it's summer again.
Nicole (01:24):
Yeah.
No, it's not summer.
It's autumn.
It's been autumn since August,because they start the same.
Patricia (01:29):
[Laughing]
Nicole (01:32):
Anyways.
Patricia (01:33):
Anyways.
Nicole (01:33):
[Laughing]
Patricia (01:34):
We recently went on a bookstore and chocolate crawl.
Nicole (01:39):
Heavy on the bookstore, a little light on the chocolate,
and crawling this time.
Patricia (01:43):
Yeah, there was no crawling.
Nicole (01:44):
Thankfully.
Patricia (01:45):
I don't think I could have handled any crawling.
Nicole (01:47):
No, especially, we had to go, there was a hill involved at one point.
Patricia (01:51):
There was a hill involved.
Nicole (01:52):
That was, yeah.
Patricia (01:53):
But we stopped at four bookshops.
Nicole (01:55):
Yeah, and then there was ice cream at the end.
Patricia (01:57):
And then there's ice cream, and there was also, this was in San
Francisco, and we ended in The Mission,and there was some kind of festival
going on, so like we had ice cream,and also there was a concert, so.
Nicole (02:10):
Yeah, it was great.
Patricia (02:11):
Yeah.
Nicole (02:12):
We got some good books.
Patricia (02:13):
We did.
We scored a first edition of Octavia E.
Butler's Dawn.
Nicole (02:19):
Which has a very silly cover on it.
Patricia (02:22):
Yeah, it has two white women on the cover, which if you're
familiar with Octavia Butler'swriting, that's very unlikely to be
the characters, but you know, theyput white people on the cover because
they thought that would help it sell.
Nicole (02:34):
Yeah.
One thing we, or I learned, so aspart of the bookstore part, was it
the second bookstore or the third?
Patricia (02:43):
It was a second bookstore called Et al, which
might have been like a pop up even.
It's like a bookstore in frontand then a gallery in the back.
Nicole (02:51):
Yeah, and there's like three gallery spaces in the back with some
art situations and installments around.
But as part of the event we wereparticipating in, they had a local author
come and read the first chapter of theirupcoming book, and a band came and played.
Patricia (03:11):
Not at the same time.
Nicole (03:12):
Not at the same time.
That would have been a lot.
They happened sequentially.
But this was a gallery space, so itwas not a space intended for public
speaking and music, which meant therewas a lot of echoing and with people
talking or murmuring that got picked up.
And there was also a lot of street noise.
(03:33):
And for me, It was incrediblydifficult to be able to make out,
like, what the author was saying.
And later, like, the music was justalmost overwhelming because it was
a very echoey space and everything.
So I tried something outwith using my AirPods.
I specifically have the AppleAirPod Pro, Pro AirPods or
(03:56):
something two, I don't know.
But they have a feature on themcalled adaptive mode that what it
does is it tries to like filterout some of the outside noise.
It's not fully noise canceling, butit reduces noise levels and filters
out loud noises and tries to likereally balance out the sound for you.
(04:17):
And in this space, when the authorwas talking, I popped them in.
And it cut out so much of the backgroundnoise that I could very easily make
out what the author was saying.
Patricia (04:27):
Yeah.
And sometimes the noise processingfor you and for other people
can also be related to ADHD,
Nicole (04:35):
mm hmm
Patricia (04:36):
um, and just wanting to hear all the noises all at once and then
you can't kind of single out a sound.
Nicole (04:41):
It's not even wanting, it's, I, I literally just hear everything.
We have this discussion evenin like restaurants and stuff.
I'm hearing everybody's conversationaround us all at the same time.
Patricia (04:52):
Right.
Nicole (04:52):
Or the TVs that are on or whatever.
Patricia (04:55):
So yeah, I was really worried about you being able to hear in this space
and I saw you pop in your AirPods andthat it looked like you were able to hear.
And even when I leaned in andtalked to you, it's not that they
were noise canceling, you couldstill hear if I whispered to you
Nicole (05:09):
mm hmm
Patricia (05:10):
or something like that.
Nicole (05:11):
yeah
Patricia (05:11):
And as a person who is an Android user, I usually see people with
headphones in, and still I have thatgut reaction of they're not listening
Nicole (05:21):
yeah
Patricia (05:21):
or they're being rude.
And so I also am trying to learn like,oh no, actually this is assistive.
Nicole (05:29):
yeah
Patricia (05:29):
This is making this space accessible for you.
Nicole (05:31):
And this is something I think we're going to see a little more
in the future because Apple justgot FDA authorization to have their
headphones also count as hearing aids.
And so coming up, they're goingto start introducing the ability
to actually do a hearing test onyour phone, which will then program
(05:52):
your headphones to be hearing aids.
Which means we're really going tohave to shift our perspective on
why people are wearing headphones.
Patricia (06:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's super fascinating.
I love the expansion of technology
Nicole (06:06):
mm hmm
Patricia (06:06):
to do this.
And also I recognize I am not deaf.
I am not hard of hearing.
So I'm also looking forward to hearingwhat people from these communities
Nicole (06:16):
yeah
Patricia (06:16):
think about this technology.
Nicole (06:18):
Yeah, and I, I will second that.
As far as I'm aware, I amnot deaf or hard of hearing.
I may have some sort ofprocessing situation going on.
I haven't been evaluated for that.
Patricia (06:29):
Although all those Ozzfests might have, uh.
Nicole (06:32):
All the heavy metal concerts in my teenage years.
Yeah, that one day afterwards whereeverything sounded like a robot
probably meant I damaged my hearing.
Patricia (06:41):
Maybe a little.
So, as usual, we need to mention we havea Patreon, we have a bookshop where you
can buy books through our affiliate links.
These are ways to support this podcastso we can keep it without ads, and
we will always link those in theshow notes on the website, we'll
also link it in the show notes thatgo directly into your podcatcher,
(07:02):
whatever, whatever you happen to use.
Music (07:04):
[Transition music]
Patricia (07:13):
So it is election season and today I thought we'd talk about
what I have coined as Perfectionin the Progressive Olympics.
So perfection for that is just tryingto do everything fully ethically.
(07:36):
And then the Olympics is the impliedcompetition and moral hierarchy
that can come out of trying to doeverything ethically and always
hire certain people and, and, andmake your money go certain places.
And so that's what we'regoing to talk about today.
Nicole (07:58):
Yeah, and we will definitely burn ourselves out on this because
there are infinite events to compete in.
And I'm gonna state up front, itis literally impossible to win when
capitalism, patriarchy, whatever, don'tcare about it at all, unless they can
(08:22):
make money from it, or gain power.
Patricia (08:25):
Absolutely.
So let's start with the perfectionismpart of that, something that
I struggle with constantly.
I kind of have to, like, bring myselfback when I find myself kind of spiraling.
To start with, one thing, it's reallyexpensive to always buy things ethically.
(08:45):
And it's, it's also impossible,but it's also really expensive.
Nicole (08:48):
Yeah, and this doesn't mean that you shouldn't try at all, but we do,
like, try to focus on what we can in thiswhole capitalist situation that we're in.
So, like, we buy ethically sourced coffee.
I think, did you...
Patricia (09:05):
I think in the past I've mentioned Kahawa, where it's both, like,
local to the Bay Area, and she's a Blackwoman, and she works with Black women
farmers, and so it's like, yes, I will,I will buy my coffee from the person.
And it's also really good.
Nicole (09:23):
Yeah, and I get my tea from a company called JusTea that, again,
purchases its tea from Black womenfarmers, and it is also really good.
But we also get other things likewhen we bought our sofa, we...
Patricia (09:40):
We researched a lot for like, what company has the most
sustainable, but also what sofa ismaybe gonna last the rest of our lives,
or at least a very long time, so thatwe're not constantly buying sofas.
Nicole (09:55):
Or has an option to repair it.
Patricia (09:57):
Yeah.
Nicole (09:57):
Versus having to just throw it out and buy a new one.
Sometimes we even try for clothing.
This has been something I've mentionedrecently that I've kind of been on a kick
on is buying second hand clothes, which isa really ethical way to purchase clothes,
and also coincidentally save money ifyou're good at it and have the time.
Patricia (10:17):
Well, and if you have access
Nicole (10:18):
yes
Patricia (10:18):
to places where you can
Nicole (10:21):
Get quality clothes.
Patricia (10:22):
get quality,
Both (10:23):
yeah
Patricia (10:23):
quality thrift shops.
And it has also been a barrier, likethis, this wanting to do everything,
right, is a barrier to some things.
Like I was researching for months andI had to take a break because I wanted
the music for this podcast to be bya black musician or a black composer.
(10:48):
And I was like, if I'm havinga show, I'm not having music
by anyone unless they're black.
And so I don't know if you'veever looked for music for a
project to download, even pay for.
Often, you don't know what the composeror musician looks like, and even so,
like, you can't always tell by pictures,and you shouldn't make assumptions a
(11:10):
lot of the time, and it's often notlisted in these giant databases of music
for projects or podcasts or whatever.
I did eventually find music, like,music for our show is by a Black
musician, but then it was alsolike, I also need to like the music.
It also needs to fit with our vibe.
And I was having the same thing whenI was looking for a tattoo artist.
(11:36):
I was like, okay, they need to beblack, they need to be queer, they
need to do color on melanated skin, butI also need to like their style, but
also they need to be in the Bay Area.
And it kind of is a throwback toour podcast episode about finding a
therapist, like the more things youadd to the list, the harder it gets,
(11:59):
or maybe even impossible it gets tofind someone who checks every box.
Nicole (12:03):
So then you start rolling back some boxes.
Patricia (12:06):
Absolutely.
Nicole (12:07):
Yeah.
We also try to source most of ourproduce from the farmer's market.
This doesn't always work out.
Like, I like to have mixedgreens for my sandwiches.
But if I buy it from the farmmarket, then it needs to be washed.
And like, I, in the mornings, do not havethe time to hand wash and like salad spin
Patricia (12:28):
A fistful of greens.
Nicole (12:28):
triple quadruple, like a fistful of greens.
Patricia (12:31):
[Chuckling]
Nicole (12:31):
Because then also that means the whole salad spinner
needs to be washed and everything.
Like, I just do not have thetime, energy, effort for that.
So that is one thing, like, yeah,end up buying from the grocery store.
And I know it's packaged in plastic, butI try to get the one that's going to last
me two weeks instead of one week, andlike, that's my compromise in produce.
Patricia (12:54):
Totally, and, and I think it's also a balance.
It's not that we buy everythingfrom the farmer's market, it's
not that we buy every, everythingwe consume food wise from small
companies, like, we also get boxes offrozen corn dogs from Foster Farms.
Nicole (13:11):
Yeah, because we, we talked about this a little bit, there's,
there's no one taking a locally sourcedhot dog with locally sourced wooden
sticks and dipping them in locallymade and sourced organic cornmeal.
Patricia (13:28):
Well, and what I was saying to you is even if
they were, that sounds awful.
That sounds terrible.
I want my Honey Crunch Foster Farmscorn dogs, pop them in the air fryer.
I remember I went to, I'mranting about corn dogs now.
I went to the Fillmore Street Festivalone time, maybe like 20 years ago, and
(13:49):
there was a corn dog stand and I wentand they had tried to weirdly season
Nicole (13:56):
No
Patricia (13:56):
the batter with
Nicole (13:57):
No
Patricia (13:57):
like paprika and stuff, it was terrible.
It was a corn dog of melancholy.
Like, it was so, so sad.
Nicole (14:04):
Yeah.
What we're trying toget out here is balance.
Patricia (14:08):
And going back to the salad greens you use for your sandwich,
I also think there's just such avillainizing of convenience foods as well.
That somehow convenience foods areless than and we're not going to get
into the whole diet culture of it all.
But I will give a bookrecommendation that just came out.
(14:29):
It's Live Nourished by Shana MineiSpence and I'll definitely link it in
the show notes and in our bookshop.
She is a black dietitian.
Remember a dietitian is a medicalprofessional, a nutritionist, anyone
can call themselves a nutritionist.
So she's a dietitian.
It was a great entry level book, Ithink, on diet culture and nourishment.
(14:51):
So, again, it's Live Nourished.
I'll link that in the show notes.
She talks a lot about conveniencefoods and not villainizing them
and how helpful they can be.
Nicole (15:01):
Another place we, we try to be a bit more, I guess, ethical in our
consumption under capitalism is thatwe try to repair the things we have.
I think we've talked aboutthis sometimes before.
And if we need to buy something new,we try to check for recommendations on
(15:23):
the, like, Buy it for Life subreddit,finding things that will either hold
out for extensive amounts of times orare hopefully able to be repaired in
the future if they need to, insteadof throwing it out and creating
more waste and buying a new one.
And really, here we want to recognizethat being able to financially afford
(15:45):
these things and participate in thisway comes with a lot of privilege.
This is not something thatis accessible to everyone.
I'd say to even most people.
Yeah
Patricia (15:57):
Right?
Nicole (15:57):
I think that's valid.
Patricia (15:58):
And so sure, Amazon is evil, but we still buy things on Amazon.
But we try to balance that, and forus, we don't buy books on Amazon.
We know how predatory they are againstindependent booksellers, and so it's
like, okay, we may need these otherthings that we can then, like they're
(16:21):
more affordable on the site, maybe likeyour eye drops, like we could actually
get a larger volume for less money.
Nicole (16:29):
And it's not like a little bit, it's like twice the volume.
Patricia (16:32):
Right.
Nicole (16:33):
For half the price.
Patricia (16:34):
And I was thinking about when my mom got sick and how it was
invaluable to be able to order thingsdelivered to the house for her care.
And how incredibly important it canbe to have companies like this to make
things accessible to people who can'tjust run out and get things, or running
(16:56):
out and getting things is so much moreexpensive than ordering them online.
But like I said, we try to balance byat least not buying books on Amazon.
Nicole (17:05):
Yeah.
When it comes to books, one thing wedo do is we get a lot of books from
the library, which should not be asurprise to our regular listeners.
But that definitely.
puts more than a few bonus points onthe board for us in the Perfection
in the Progressive Olympics.
Patricia (17:23):
So much of this is unrealistic for most people and it's, it's a lot.
Like I, even just saying it rightnow, it's like, yeah, we do a lot
Nicole (17:34):
We do a lot.
Patricia (17:34):
and I can tell you it's not always fun.
Nicole (17:37):
It's also exhausting.
There will always be more than we can do.
And beyond that, it willstill never be enough.
We are a household of two adults, andwe are not going to single handedly
end white supremacy, capitalism,patriarchy, by, I don't know...
Patricia (17:55):
By the consumption choices we make.
Nicole (17:57):
Yeah, like, us buying cucumbers from the farmer's
market is not gonna fix this.
Patricia (18:03):
Right, right.
And I think it is also, Impossible to doeverything ethically under these systems.
Under capitalism, colonialism,white supremacy, like these systems
are designed for unethical gains.
A conversation I have frequently witha few people is around investing and
(18:25):
investing for whether it's wealth,investing for a retirement, investing
for a specific thing, buying a home.
There is no way to invest and getreturns on your investment and
still have them be 100% ethical.
(18:45):
And you might say, well, but whatabout, you know, like green investing?
And, like, some of the green investingusually involves Tesla stocks.
Nicole (18:58):
Bleh.
Patricia (18:59):
Right.
And so, one, that's not a greatproduct, the money is going to
someone who I certainly don't support.
But, also, the human rights violationsthat are involved in making the
batteries and the components ofelectric vehicles, like, sure, it
might be green in that way, and, like,absolute human rights violations.
(19:21):
So, again, there is no, there's noethical investing, so you gotta weigh.
But I still want to retire.
I still, you know, I stillwant to save for a rainy day.
Nicole (19:33):
Yeah.
Patricia (19:34):
The system is designed that we can't do any of this fully ethically.
Nicole (19:38):
And as we mentioned, like, there's a lot of privilege that
comes with even being able totry to participate in this way.
And I want to acknowledge thatnot only is this not accessible
to most people, because of cost.
Being poor is more expensivethan not being poor.
(20:00):
I think a great example of this iswhat's kind of referred to as the Boots
Theory, which actually originates fromTerry Pratchett's Discworld series.
And the base concept of this isthat while a well made pair of
boots may cost you, say, $500,they're gonna last you 10 years.
(20:23):
Whereas a cheap pair of bootsmay only cost you $50, but you'll
have to replace them every year.
Patricia (20:30):
Or every half year, if you're gonna do the math.
Nicole (20:33):
Yeah.
Patricia (20:33):
For that.
Nicole (20:34):
You end up spending more money because you can't afford
the products that last you longer.
And also, you end upgenerating more waste in that.
Just because the better qualityproducts are inaccessible.
So in the long run, it costsyou more money to be poor.
Along these same lines, though, Ialso want to recognize that companies
(20:56):
who make products have an incentiveto, over time, reduce the quality
of their products so that thereis faster turnover, so that people
continue to buy more of their products.
When they exhaust the market andeverybody's got the product, if
it's going to last 10 years, thenthere's no more people to buy it.
So they have to make inferiorquality so that they break, wear
(21:19):
out, and people have to buy more.
Patricia (21:21):
And there are companies that, well, first, I want to go backward.
Don't check Nicole's math on the numbers.
Nicole (21:27):
No, don't check my numbers on that.
Patricia (21:28):
I think in the, in the bootstrap.
theory example, it's actually 50 bucksfor a good pair of boots and then 10 bucks
Nicole (21:34):
Sure
Patricia (21:35):
for whatever, and then 10 years.
So, but...
Nicole (21:37):
We'll link it in the show notes
Patricia (21:39):
We'll link it in the show notes.
Nicole (21:39):
to the Wikipedia article that has math that checks out.
Patricia (21:43):
Absolutely.
But going back to companies have anincentive to make things of worse quality.
You are seeing this with somecompanies like Tupperware
having to file for bankruptcy.
And what happened was their productswould just last for so long that
people weren't buying new Tupperware.
Nicole (22:03):
Yeah.
Patricia (22:03):
And then the same thing with Instant Pot.
Once you have an Instant Pot, like,then you have an Instant Pot, and it
works, and it's great, and you're notbuying a new Instant Pot every year.
And so that company also is, wasstruggling trying to figure out like
what do we pivot to because the thingwhere they got known for and making
(22:25):
their money, no one was buying itanymore because everyone already had one.
Nicole (22:29):
I think that's why you started seeing like weird attachments for
it, like an air fryer lid and stuff.
Patricia (22:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nicole (22:36):
The other thing that we think about, particularly as people who,
who live in the United States, isthat we are living on stolen land.
And this is a frequent point thatcomes up with Patricia and I.
Because we are renters, and we,of course, like many people, dream
(22:57):
of homeownership someday, but...
Patricia (23:00):
But what does homeownership mean on stolen land?
Nicole (23:02):
Right.
Patricia (23:02):
But then, like, we're basically paying housing for our landlord right
now, and it's, there's no way of winning.
Nicole (23:09):
Yeah.
Patricia (23:10):
A lot of what has kind of helped my thinking on a lot of this,
is the book Wallet Activism, How to UseEvery Dollar You Spend, Earn, and Save
as a Force for Change by Tanja Hester.
This book really, really helped mereframe how I think about all of this.
Nicole (23:30):
I read this recently and I similarly was just like, oh yeah,
this is, this is really helpful.
Patricia (23:37):
One of the things she goes over was using almond milk or oat
milk versus actual dairy, but thenalmond milk uses a lot of water, but
then how far does it travel to you?
And trying to like, weigh all thesethings when I just want a bowl of cereal.
Nicole (23:58):
There was also another aspect of that was that like, a lot of the,
the almond trees replaced what wasformerly cotton fields, which were
far more, like, water dependent.
Patricia (24:09):
Oh, I don't know.
Yeah.
Nicole (24:10):
There was something else.
There was, like, another factor in that,that some of the farming that was being
used to make the almonds that turned intoalmond milk was formerly cotton fields.
So, by transforming them and supportingthe farmers who were growing the almonds,
you're, in some ways, even thoughthey were maybe require more water in
(24:30):
one aspect, they're using less waterthan what was formerly in that field.
So you're encouraging thefarmers to do like, there's,
Patricia (24:36):
Yeah
Nicole (24:37):
levels of calculus to this.
Patricia (24:38):
But then I was like, we're in California where
we're always in a drought.
Nicole (24:40):
Yeah.
There's levels of calculus to all thisthat is, that this book goes into.
And I think it's really helpful inreframing how you think about some
of these products and what you aresaying when you purchase products.
Especially under this, like,capitalist economy system.
Patricia (25:00):
Let's talk about the other part of the phrase, Perfection
in the Progressive Olympics.
Progressive Olympics.
This is the term I use for thephenomenon of the implied hierarchy
of what we've been talking about.
It would be like me thinking I'mbetter than other people because
I'm learning to make my own pasta.
(25:21):
Like, I am not better thanother people because of that.
I'm learning because I thinkit's fun and it tastes good.
But also, I think pasta from thegrocery store tastes good, too.
I am very open to all types of pasta.
Nicole (25:35):
Are you a pan-pasta?
Patricia (25:38):
I don't know.
I'm not a pasta purist.
Nicole (25:41):
Okay.
I was actually thinking about this whenwe were at the grocery store on Sunday,
as I was buying a few more cups of yogurt,because I like to have them in the fridge,
especially as it's still been warm.
They make for a good part of my lunch.
But they all come in plastic, unlessI think if you buy like that one
particular French brand or something,but most of the yogurt comes in plastic.
(26:02):
And for the volume I want, because I'llsometimes supplement it instead of a
sandwich or something, it's in plastic.
And I was like, oh, [exhale]I could learn to make yogurt.
Patricia (26:12):
We have an instant pot.
Nicole (26:13):
We have an instant pot.
It has a yogurt button.
Um, and I have friends who've made yogurt.
It can't be that hard.
And that would help cutdown on packaging waste.
Yeah, and we could also,like, I, I love making bread.
I think it's fun, andthe bread is delicious.
Like, we could, we could make ourown bread, and we can make our own
pasta, and we can do all these things.
(26:33):
But then we wouldn't havetime for anything else.
Patricia (26:36):
We wouldn't have time for anything else.
And the internet, the tradwife internetalso tries to make you feel like
if you are doing all these things,you are better than other people.
Nicole (26:47):
Yeah
Patricia (26:47):
And that is not true.
Nicole (26:49):
Also, the tradwife internet does a weird thing where it leads people
to, like, white supremacist content.
Patricia (26:54):
Yep.
It's a direct line.
Nicole (26:55):
It's a direct line.
Do not fall down that rabbit hole.
Patricia (26:58):
But, yeah, like, constantly doing all of those things wouldn't
leave us time for anything else.
We have day jobs.
I have a whole other job with Book Riot.
I have writing.
We have this podcast.
We also need to clean and take careof the garden and I don't know,
see friends once in a while, and ifwe were doing all of those things,
(27:19):
we wouldn't be doing any of that.
Nicole (27:21):
Yeah.
Another example of this is thinkingsomeone who uses disposable
plates or cutlery is somehowless than a person who doesn't.
This is, this is really another,like, Progressive Olympics thing.
And you have to, like, reframethis into, like, that is, that's
an incredibly ableist thought.
(27:42):
You don't know everyone's story, andhonestly not everyone is in a place
in their life where they can have nicedishes and silverware that they can't
throw away, or is even able to wash them.
Patricia (27:54):
Yeah, and there are some people who just use them and they don't
like washing dishes, or they don't havetime because they're working multiple
jobs, and it's like, people are goingto make their own decisions, and you
are not somehow better than a personwho uses disposable cutlery and dishes.
Nicole (28:12):
Yeah
Patricia (28:12):
Or they are somehow not less than people who don't.
It goes back to the wholedisposable straw situation.
There are many people who need disposablestraws, and no one is better than anyone
else for either not using a straw.
Or carrying around a metal straw that thengets dirty and then you do what with it?
(28:33):
Do you just like put adirty straw in your purse?
I don't, like, I, I never reallyunderstood what was happening there.
Nicole (28:40):
Yeah, you have to like wrap it up in a thing and then you
have like a dirty straw in a...
Patricia (28:44):
In a dirty napkin that you then throw away, like, ugh.
Nicole (28:47):
Yeah, no.
I think about this a lot too.
I think this was something that wasmentioned in the Wallet Activism book.
When we started getting rid of all of theplastic straws, Starbucks introduced a
strawless lid, and in some circumstancesit was at least equivalent to the same
(29:07):
amount of plastic as the old plastic strawand lid combo, and in some situations
it actually ended up being more plastic
Patricia (29:16):
Oh my gosh.
Nicole (29:17):
by, by weight than the old straw and lid combo.
Patricia (29:21):
I'm fascinated how the whole conversation was around plastic straws
and not, say, like, cotton swabs.
Nicole (29:28):
Well, I mean, if there was dramatic footage of a sea turtle with uh,
cotton swabs stuck up its nose, then thatmight have been the conversation we had.
Patricia (29:40):
But the thing is, there is footage out there of
cotton swabs littering the ocean.
My take on it, my hot take, is thatthe beauty industry would never let
it fly to villainize cotton swabs.
Nicole (29:52):
Mmmm
Patricia (29:53):
And also, there's no quote unquote good replacement.
Nicole (29:57):
Yeah, there's not.
Wait, we're not going to geta, uh, a glass swab or a...
Patricia (30:03):
You know what?
I have seen a company,they made a silicone swab,
Nicole (30:06):
Yeah
Patricia (30:06):
but then you have to, like, rinse it.
I don't know.
Nicole (30:08):
Yeah
Patricia (30:08):
I don't know.
It seemed like it was doing a lot.
Um, there's an episode of Struggle Carethat I'll link to where they actually talk
about, like, environmentalism and ableism.
Nicole (30:19):
That's the, that's the episode with Imani Barbarin, right?
Patricia (30:22):
Yeah, Crutches and Spice.
Nicole (30:23):
Yeah.
Patricia (30:24):
She's great.
Nicole (30:24):
That was a good episode too.
Patricia (30:26):
I'm also fascinated by how something that started out as a
greener option like a Stanley Cup ora Hydro Flask suddenly morphed into
rampant consumerism and status symbols.
Nicole (30:38):
I mean, that's what capitalism does, right?
Especially with these higher priced itemsthat we've been kind of talking around.
They cost more because they'resupposedly higher quality.
And because of this higher price point, itbecomes a status symbol, which earns you
points in the Progressive Olympics, and...
Patricia (31:00):
Oh my gosh, yeah.
Nicole (31:03):
But then, because it becomes a status symbol, it is also consumed at a
higher rate, and then, as soon as it'sout of fashion, it's thrown away again.
And now you have this item that, whileit would have lasted years on your
shelf, lasts even longer in the landfill.
Patricia (31:20):
Yeah, I mean, you could tell when they're going out of fashion when
you start to check the thrift shops.
As soon as you see themshowing up at the thrift shops,
Nicole (31:27):
Mm hmm
Patricia (31:28):
you know they're over.
One of the effects of the idea that GroupA is morally superior than Group B is
that, say, when I end up having to throwsomething out that isn't recyclable,
there can be a lot of guilt around that.
Nicole (31:45):
The other side of this, like, trying to be perfect in the
Progressive Olympics is that becausethese more ethical, sustainable
options are often more expensive, Itleads to some people to believe that
having wealth is a reliable substitutefor being a more ethical person.
Patricia (32:08):
Yeah, like it's a proxy.
Nicole (32:09):
Yes.
And therefore, having wealth on itsown gets you more points towards that
Perfection in the Progressive Olympics.
Now, I want to be very clear here.
There is nothing morally superiorabout having more wealth, and nothing
(32:30):
morally inferior about being poor.
Patricia (32:35):
Absolutely.
I'm also fascinated how thecontext constantly changes.
Like, growing up, I grew upin my grandparents house.
They lived through the GreatDepression, and I grew up washing
Ziplocs, which I've mentioned before.
And, you know, that was not necessarilyseen as something people who are
wealthy do, right, wash their Ziplocs.
(32:57):
But now it's seen as somethingvery green and environmental.
And there's also, I'm only vaguely awareof the new under consumption core trend
online, where it's like a direct responseto the constant over consumption that
(33:18):
is especially popular on places withpictures like Instagram and TikTok.
And so people are like, making aestheticvideos of like, using what they have,
and I'm like, oh, like, normal people?
Nicole (33:32):
It is impossible to win at achieving Perfection
in the Progressive Olympics.
We don't have to play that game, butit is important that we try to be
ethical in our choices where we can.
Every little bit does help, and thatmeans sometimes we are better in
some places than others, but pleaserecognize that while it's good to make
(33:56):
your little individual effort, theamount of waste any individual person
creates, or can stop creating palesin comparison to that generated by
these massive corporations out there.
Those are the ones really responsible forall of the environmental problems we have.
Patricia (34:18):
Yeah, and I also think about it when it's like, oh yeah, I want to buy
Black, or I want to buy Asian, or whathave you, and sometimes it's like that
thing you want, you can't find a personin that group that makes that thing.
Nicole (34:31):
Yeah.
Patricia (34:32):
And that's just the way it is.
I mean, if you are a person ofcolor, you can make your own thing.
But anyway, at the beginning, Imentioned we want to talk about this
because it's election season, andI think a lot about these ideas of
Perfection in the Progressive Olympicsin the context of political candidates.
(34:52):
I don't think there's such a thingas the perfect candidate because
people are not perfect creatures.
I think it's important tovote, especially down ballot.
I think it's important to push candidatesand officials toward a more just world.
And I think, recognizing that politiciansare not perfect and they're not going
to save us, it is important to continueorganizing and doing community work and
(35:16):
supporting folks doing the community work.
Nicole (35:18):
Whew.
That was a lot to pack in there.
Patricia (35:21):
Yeah.
Nicole (35:22):
What do you want to make sure people take away from this episode?
Patricia (35:27):
I want everyone to recognize when you're, when
you're doing this spiraling.
Recognize when you're setting yourselfon fire to keep other people warm.
It is so easy to burn out trying todo everything right and every right
thing, and it's actually impossible.
What do you want people to take away?
Nicole (35:48):
I want people to keep an eye out for how they're participating in
this attempt at achieving Perfectionin the Progressive Olympics.
And how that shows up in their life in theform of unconscious biases for people who
have less disposable income to purchasethe newest green product or whatever.
Music (36:11):
[Transition Music]
Nicole (36:19):
[Exhale] Okay, that was kind of heavy.
Patricia (36:22):
Yeah.
Nicole (36:23):
Patricia, what has been filling your cup lately?
Patricia (36:26):
It's actually kind of related to the show, which is, we have a lot
of stuff, and what's actually filledmy cup is we've decided to really
maybe focus more on like a nice dinneror doing something, going on a road
trip or something, for each other forChristmas instead of buying more things.
(36:50):
Like we don't really haveshelf space for more dustables.
We have all the books and all theplants and all the perfume and it's
actually kind of maybe not filled mycup, but it's lifted a weight from me.
Not having to expect to bemaking room for, for more items.
Nicole (37:10):
This is something we actually did in the pre COVID era, and we
did a lot of really fun things.
Patricia (37:16):
Yeah, we need to, now that it's still COVID, it's the, I don't
like saying post COVID era, but it's...
Nicole (37:24):
We have better mitigation.
Patricia (37:26):
We have better mitigation, and like, it makes us be creative, too,
Nicole (37:30):
Yeah
Patricia (37:30):
about what we do.
Nicole (37:31):
Yeah.
Patricia (37:32):
Nicole, what's filling your cup?
Nicole (37:34):
I am holding on to things in the future right now.
We're going to go to our localRenaissance Faire this coming weekend,
but we also have a lot of autumnaladventures planned and other various
things, and I'm just, it feels reallynice to have things to look forward to.
Patricia (37:52):
Yeah.
Well, that's our show for today.
We'd like to thank our awesomeaudio editor, Jen Zink.
You can find her at loopdilou.com,and we'll leave a link to
that in our show notes.
Nicole (38:02):
You can find the full show notes and transcript at eedapod.com,
that's E E D A P O D dot com.
There you can also find a link to ourPatreon, our Bookshop link, and a link
to the ongoing Enthusiastic Encouragementand Dubious Advice newsletter.
You can also find us on Instagramand bluesky at eedapod and
(38:24):
email us at eedapod@gmail.com.
Patricia (38:27):
We are nothing if not consistent.
Nicole (38:28):
We would appreciate it so much if you would subscribe and rate us on
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever youget your podcasts that allow ratings.
It really does go far inhelping other people find us.
Patricia (38:41):
We would also appreciate anyone who can subscribe to us on Patreon.
Support there is going to help us keepthis show going, especially without ads.
You can find us at patreon.com/eedapod.
In the meantime, we hope youfind ways to be kind to yourself.
Drink some water and read a book.
We'll be talking to you soon.
(39:03):
I wish we bought corndogs the other day.
[Intro Music]
Patricia (00:15):
Hello, Monsters!
Welcome to Enthusiastic Encouragementand Dubious Advice, the podcast for
folks who would rather curl intothe fetal position than lean in.
I'm your host, Patricia Elzie-Tuttle.
Nicole (00:26):
And I'm the sugar to your salt, Nicole Elzie-Tuttle.
We are recording the showon September 24th, 2024.
Patricia (00:35):
Happy autumn, everyone!
Nicole (00:36):
It's autumn!
I mean, in my brain it's been autumnsince the start of September, maybe
even part of August, but you keeptelling me that that's summertime still.
Patricia (00:45):
Yeah.
I mean, okay, so, I recognize we're alsobeing very centered on where we are.
It is autumn where we are, andour friends in the Southern
Hemisphere, it is springtime.
Nicole (00:57):
Yes.
Patricia (00:57):
So, happy spring.
Nicole (00:58):
Because we just had...
We just had an Equinox?
Patricia (01:01):
Yes.
Nicole (01:01):
And that's how you divide the seasons?
Patricia (01:04):
Spring equinox, fall equinox.
Nicole (01:06):
And then the solstices.
Patricia (01:07):
And then the solstices.
Solstices?
Nicole (01:10):
Solstici.
Patricia (01:11):
Solstici.
Nicole (01:12):
I don't know.
I go off seasonal vibes, so.
Patricia (01:16):
I know, you've just been saying it's summer, it's summer, it's summer,
and then you said it was like autumn amonth ago, but now it's summer again.
Nicole (01:24):
Yeah.
No, it's not summer.
It's autumn.
It's been autumn since August,because they start the same.
Patricia (01:29):
[Laughing]
Nicole (01:32):
Anyways.
Patricia (01:33):
Anyways.
Nicole (01:33):
[Laughing]
Patricia (01:34):
We recently went on a bookstore and chocolate crawl.
Nicole (01:39):
Heavy on the bookstore, a little light on the chocolate,
and crawling this time.
Patricia (01:43):
Yeah, there was no crawling.
Nicole (01:44):
Thankfully.
Patricia (01:45):
I don't think I could have handled any crawling.
Nicole (01:47):
No, especially, we had to go, there was a hill involved at one point.
Patricia (01:51):
There was a hill involved.
Nicole (01:52):
That was, yeah.
Patricia (01:53):
But we stopped at four bookshops.
Nicole (01:55):
Yeah, and then there was ice cream at the end.
Patricia (01:57):
And then there's ice cream, and there was also, this was in San
Francisco, and we ended in The Mission,and there was some kind of festival
going on, so like we had ice cream,and also there was a concert, so.
Nicole (02:10):
Yeah, it was great.
Patricia (02:11):
Yeah.
Nicole (02:12):
We got some good books.
Patricia (02:13):
We did.
We scored a first edition of Octavia E.
Butler's Dawn.
Nicole (02:19):
Which has a very silly cover on it.
Patricia (02:22):
Yeah, it has two white women on the cover, which if you're
familiar with Octavia Butler'swriting, that's very unlikely to be
the characters, but you know, theyput white people on the cover because
they thought that would help it sell.
Nicole (02:34):
Yeah.
One thing we, or I learned, so aspart of the bookstore part, was it
the second bookstore or the third?
Patricia (02:43):
It was a second bookstore called Et al, which
might have been like a pop up even.
It's like a bookstore in frontand then a gallery in the back.
Nicole (02:51):
Yeah, and there's like three gallery spaces in the back with some
art situations and installments around.
But as part of the event we wereparticipating in, they had a local author
come and read the first chapter of theirupcoming book, and a band came and played.
Patricia (03:11):
Not at the same time.
Nicole (03:12):
Not at the same time.
That would have been a lot.
They happened sequentially.
But this was a gallery space, so itwas not a space intended for public
speaking and music, which meant therewas a lot of echoing and with people
talking or murmuring that got picked up.
And there was also a lot of street noise.
(03:33):
And for me, It was incrediblydifficult to be able to make out,
like, what the author was saying.
And later, like, the music was justalmost overwhelming because it was
a very echoey space and everything.
So I tried something outwith using my AirPods.
I specifically have the AppleAirPod Pro, Pro AirPods or
(03:56):
something two, I don't know.
But they have a feature on themcalled adaptive mode that what it
does is it tries to like filterout some of the outside noise.
It's not fully noise canceling, butit reduces noise levels and filters
out loud noises and tries to likereally balance out the sound for you.
(04:17):
And in this space, when the authorwas talking, I popped them in.
And it cut out so much of the backgroundnoise that I could very easily make
out what the author was saying.
Patricia (04:27):
Yeah.
And sometimes the noise processingfor you and for other people
can also be related to ADHD,
Nicole (04:35):
mm hmm
Patricia (04:36):
um, and just wanting to hear all the noises all at once and then
you can't kind of single out a sound.
Nicole (04:41):
It's not even wanting, it's, I, I literally just hear everything.
We have this discussion evenin like restaurants and stuff.
I'm hearing everybody's conversationaround us all at the same time.
Patricia (04:52):
Right.
Nicole (04:52):
Or the TVs that are on or whatever.
Patricia (04:55):
So yeah, I was really worried about you being able to hear in this space
and I saw you pop in your AirPods andthat it looked like you were able to hear.
And even when I leaned in andtalked to you, it's not that they
were noise canceling, you couldstill hear if I whispered to you
Nicole (05:09):
mm hmm
Patricia (05:10):
or something like that.
Nicole (05:11):
yeah
Patricia (05:11):
And as a person who is an Android user, I usually see people with
headphones in, and still I have thatgut reaction of they're not listening
Nicole (05:21):
yeah
Patricia (05:21):
or they're being rude.
And so I also am trying to learn like,oh no, actually this is assistive.
Nicole (05:29):
yeah
Patricia (05:29):
This is making this space accessible for you.
Nicole (05:31):
And this is something I think we're going to see a little more
in the future because Apple justgot FDA authorization to have their
headphones also count as hearing aids.
And so coming up, they're goingto start introducing the ability
to actually do a hearing test onyour phone, which will then program
(05:52):
your headphones to be hearing aids.
Which means we're really going tohave to shift our perspective on
why people are wearing headphones.
Patricia (06:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think it's super fascinating.
I love the expansion of technology
Nicole (06:06):
mm hmm
Patricia (06:06):
to do this.
And also I recognize I am not deaf.
I am not hard of hearing.
So I'm also looking forward to hearingwhat people from these communities
Nicole (06:16):
yeah
Patricia (06:16):
think about this technology.
Nicole (06:18):
Yeah, and I, I will second that.
As far as I'm aware, I amnot deaf or hard of hearing.
I may have some sort ofprocessing situation going on.
I haven't been evaluated for that.
Patricia (06:29):
Although all those Ozzfests might have, uh.
Nicole (06:32):
All the heavy metal concerts in my teenage years.
Yeah, that one day afterwards whereeverything sounded like a robot
probably meant I damaged my hearing.
Patricia (06:41):
Maybe a little.
So, as usual, we need to mention we havea Patreon, we have a bookshop where you
can buy books through our affiliate links.
These are ways to support this podcastso we can keep it without ads, and
we will always link those in theshow notes on the website, we'll
also link it in the show notes thatgo directly into your podcatcher,
(07:02):
whatever, whatever you happen to use.
Music (07:04):
[Transition music]
Patricia (07:13):
So it is election season and today I thought we'd talk about
what I have coined as Perfectionin the Progressive Olympics.
So perfection for that is just tryingto do everything fully ethically.
(07:36):
And then the Olympics is the impliedcompetition and moral hierarchy
that can come out of trying to doeverything ethically and always
hire certain people and, and, andmake your money go certain places.
And so that's what we'regoing to talk about today.
Nicole (07:58):
Yeah, and we will definitely burn ourselves out on this because
there are infinite events to compete in.
And I'm gonna state up front, itis literally impossible to win when
capitalism, patriarchy, whatever, don'tcare about it at all, unless they can
(08:22):
make money from it, or gain power.
Patricia (08:25):
Absolutely.
So let's start with the perfectionismpart of that, something that
I struggle with constantly.
I kind of have to, like, bring myselfback when I find myself kind of spiraling.
To start with, one thing, it's reallyexpensive to always buy things ethically.
(08:45):
And it's, it's also impossible,but it's also really expensive.
Nicole (08:48):
Yeah, and this doesn't mean that you shouldn't try at all, but we do,
like, try to focus on what we can in thiswhole capitalist situation that we're in.
So, like, we buy ethically sourced coffee.
I think, did you...
Patricia (09:05):
I think in the past I've mentioned Kahawa, where it's both, like,
local to the Bay Area, and she's a Blackwoman, and she works with Black women
farmers, and so it's like, yes, I will,I will buy my coffee from the person.
And it's also really good.
Nicole (09:23):
Yeah, and I get my tea from a company called JusTea that, again,
purchases its tea from Black womenfarmers, and it is also really good.
But we also get other things likewhen we bought our sofa, we...
Patricia (09:40):
We researched a lot for like, what company has the most
sustainable, but also what sofa ismaybe gonna last the rest of our lives,
or at least a very long time, so thatwe're not constantly buying sofas.
Nicole (09:55):
Or has an option to repair it.
Patricia (09:57):
Yeah.
Nicole (09:57):
Versus having to just throw it out and buy a new one.
Sometimes we even try for clothing.
This has been something I've mentionedrecently that I've kind of been on a kick
on is buying second hand clothes, which isa really ethical way to purchase clothes,
and also coincidentally save money ifyou're good at it and have the time.
Patricia (10:17):
Well, and if you have access
Nicole (10:18):
yes
Patricia (10:18):
to places where you can
Nicole (10:21):
Get quality clothes.
Patricia (10:22):
get quality,
Both (10:23):
yeah
Patricia (10:23):
quality thrift shops.
And it has also been a barrier, likethis, this wanting to do everything,
right, is a barrier to some things.
Like I was researching for months andI had to take a break because I wanted
the music for this podcast to be bya black musician or a black composer.
(10:48):
And I was like, if I'm havinga show, I'm not having music
by anyone unless they're black.
And so I don't know if you'veever looked for music for a
project to download, even pay for.
Often, you don't know what the composeror musician looks like, and even so,
like, you can't always tell by pictures,and you shouldn't make assumptions a
(11:10):
lot of the time, and it's often notlisted in these giant databases of music
for projects or podcasts or whatever.
I did eventually find music, like,music for our show is by a Black
musician, but then it was alsolike, I also need to like the music.
It also needs to fit with our vibe.
And I was having the same thing whenI was looking for a tattoo artist.
(11:36):
I was like, okay, they need to beblack, they need to be queer, they
need to do color on melanated skin, butI also need to like their style, but
also they need to be in the Bay Area.
And it kind of is a throwback toour podcast episode about finding a
therapist, like the more things youadd to the list, the harder it gets,
(11:59):
or maybe even impossible it gets tofind someone who checks every box.
Nicole (12:03):
So then you start rolling back some boxes.
Patricia (12:06):
Absolutely.
Nicole (12:07):
Yeah.
We also try to source most of ourproduce from the farmer's market.
This doesn't always work out.
Like, I like to have mixedgreens for my sandwiches.
But if I buy it from the farmmarket, then it needs to be washed.
And like, I, in the mornings, do not havethe time to hand wash and like salad spin
Patricia (12:28):
A fistful of greens.
Nicole (12:28):
triple quadruple, like a fistful of greens.
Patricia (12:31):
[Chuckling]
Nicole (12:31):
Because then also that means the whole salad spinner
needs to be washed and everything.
Like, I just do not have thetime, energy, effort for that.
So that is one thing, like, yeah,end up buying from the grocery store.
And I know it's packaged in plastic, butI try to get the one that's going to last
me two weeks instead of one week, andlike, that's my compromise in produce.
Patricia (12:54):
Totally, and, and I think it's also a balance.
It's not that we buy everythingfrom the farmer's market, it's
not that we buy every, everythingwe consume food wise from small
companies, like, we also get boxes offrozen corn dogs from Foster Farms.
Nicole (13:11):
Yeah, because we, we talked about this a little bit, there's,
there's no one taking a locally sourcedhot dog with locally sourced wooden
sticks and dipping them in locallymade and sourced organic cornmeal.
Patricia (13:28):
Well, and what I was saying to you is even if
they were, that sounds awful.
That sounds terrible.
I want my Honey Crunch Foster Farmscorn dogs, pop them in the air fryer.
I remember I went to, I'mranting about corn dogs now.
I went to the Fillmore Street Festivalone time, maybe like 20 years ago, and
(13:49):
there was a corn dog stand and I wentand they had tried to weirdly season
Nicole (13:56):
No
Patricia (13:56):
the batter with
Nicole (13:57):
No
Patricia (13:57):
like paprika and stuff, it was terrible.
It was a corn dog of melancholy.
Like, it was so, so sad.
Nicole (14:04):
Yeah.
What we're trying toget out here is balance.
Patricia (14:08):
And going back to the salad greens you use for your sandwich,
I also think there's just such avillainizing of convenience foods as well.
That somehow convenience foods areless than and we're not going to get
into the whole diet culture of it all.
But I will give a bookrecommendation that just came out.
(14:29):
It's Live Nourished by Shana MineiSpence and I'll definitely link it in
the show notes and in our bookshop.
She is a black dietitian.
Remember a dietitian is a medicalprofessional, a nutritionist, anyone
can call themselves a nutritionist.
So she's a dietitian.
It was a great entry level book, Ithink, on diet culture and nourishment.
(14:51):
So, again, it's Live Nourished.
I'll link that in the show notes.
She talks a lot about conveniencefoods and not villainizing them
and how helpful they can be.
Nicole (15:01):
Another place we, we try to be a bit more, I guess, ethical in our
consumption under capitalism is thatwe try to repair the things we have.
I think we've talked aboutthis sometimes before.
And if we need to buy something new,we try to check for recommendations on
(15:23):
the, like, Buy it for Life subreddit,finding things that will either hold
out for extensive amounts of times orare hopefully able to be repaired in
the future if they need to, insteadof throwing it out and creating
more waste and buying a new one.
And really, here we want to recognizethat being able to financially afford
(15:45):
these things and participate in thisway comes with a lot of privilege.
This is not something thatis accessible to everyone.
I'd say to even most people.
Yeah
Patricia (15:57):
Right?
Nicole (15:57):
I think that's valid.
Patricia (15:58):
And so sure, Amazon is evil, but we still buy things on Amazon.
But we try to balance that, and forus, we don't buy books on Amazon.
We know how predatory they are againstindependent booksellers, and so it's
like, okay, we may need these otherthings that we can then, like they're
(16:21):
more affordable on the site, maybe likeyour eye drops, like we could actually
get a larger volume for less money.
Nicole (16:29):
And it's not like a little bit, it's like twice the volume.
Patricia (16:32):
Right.
Nicole (16:33):
For half the price.
Patricia (16:34):
And I was thinking about when my mom got sick and how it was
invaluable to be able to order thingsdelivered to the house for her care.
And how incredibly important it canbe to have companies like this to make
things accessible to people who can'tjust run out and get things, or running
(16:56):
out and getting things is so much moreexpensive than ordering them online.
But like I said, we try to balance byat least not buying books on Amazon.
Nicole (17:05):
Yeah.
When it comes to books, one thing wedo do is we get a lot of books from
the library, which should not be asurprise to our regular listeners.
But that definitely.
puts more than a few bonus points onthe board for us in the Perfection
in the Progressive Olympics.
Patricia (17:23):
So much of this is unrealistic for most people and it's, it's a lot.
Like I, even just saying it rightnow, it's like, yeah, we do a lot
Nicole (17:34):
We do a lot.
Patricia (17:34):
and I can tell you it's not always fun.
Nicole (17:37):
It's also exhausting.
There will always be more than we can do.
And beyond that, it willstill never be enough.
We are a household of two adults, andwe are not going to single handedly
end white supremacy, capitalism,patriarchy, by, I don't know...
Patricia (17:55):
By the consumption choices we make.
Nicole (17:57):
Yeah, like, us buying cucumbers from the farmer's
market is not gonna fix this.
Patricia (18:03):
Right, right.
And I think it is also, Impossible to doeverything ethically under these systems.
Under capitalism, colonialism,white supremacy, like these systems
are designed for unethical gains.
A conversation I have frequently witha few people is around investing and
(18:25):
investing for whether it's wealth,investing for a retirement, investing
for a specific thing, buying a home.
There is no way to invest and getreturns on your investment and
still have them be 100% ethical.
(18:45):
And you might say, well, but whatabout, you know, like green investing?
And, like, some of the green investingusually involves Tesla stocks.
Nicole (18:58):
Bleh.
Patricia (18:59):
Right.
And so, one, that's not a greatproduct, the money is going to
someone who I certainly don't support.
But, also, the human rights violationsthat are involved in making the
batteries and the components ofelectric vehicles, like, sure, it
might be green in that way, and, like,absolute human rights violations.
(19:21):
So, again, there is no, there's noethical investing, so you gotta weigh.
But I still want to retire.
I still, you know, I stillwant to save for a rainy day.
Nicole (19:33):
Yeah.
Patricia (19:34):
The system is designed that we can't do any of this fully ethically.
Nicole (19:38):
And as we mentioned, like, there's a lot of privilege that
comes with even being able totry to participate in this way.
And I want to acknowledge thatnot only is this not accessible
to most people, because of cost.
Being poor is more expensivethan not being poor.
(20:00):
I think a great example of this iswhat's kind of referred to as the Boots
Theory, which actually originates fromTerry Pratchett's Discworld series.
And the base concept of this isthat while a well made pair of
boots may cost you, say, $500,they're gonna last you 10 years.
(20:23):
Whereas a cheap pair of bootsmay only cost you $50, but you'll
have to replace them every year.
Patricia (20:30):
Or every half year, if you're gonna do the math.
Nicole (20:33):
Yeah.
Patricia (20:33):
For that.
Nicole (20:34):
You end up spending more money because you can't afford
the products that last you longer.
And also, you end upgenerating more waste in that.
Just because the better qualityproducts are inaccessible.
So in the long run, it costsyou more money to be poor.
Along these same lines, though, Ialso want to recognize that companies
(20:56):
who make products have an incentiveto, over time, reduce the quality
of their products so that thereis faster turnover, so that people
continue to buy more of their products.
When they exhaust the market andeverybody's got the product, if
it's going to last 10 years, thenthere's no more people to buy it.
So they have to make inferiorquality so that they break, wear
(21:19):
out, and people have to buy more.
Patricia (21:21):
And there are companies that, well, first, I want to go backward.
Don't check Nicole's math on the numbers.
Nicole (21:27):
No, don't check my numbers on that.
Patricia (21:28):
I think in the, in the bootstrap.
theory example, it's actually 50 bucksfor a good pair of boots and then 10 bucks
Nicole (21:34):
Sure
Patricia (21:35):
for whatever, and then 10 years.
So, but...
Nicole (21:37):
We'll link it in the show notes
Patricia (21:39):
We'll link it in the show notes.
Nicole (21:39):
to the Wikipedia article that has math that checks out.
Patricia (21:43):
Absolutely.
But going back to companies have anincentive to make things of worse quality.
You are seeing this with somecompanies like Tupperware
having to file for bankruptcy.
And what happened was their productswould just last for so long that
people weren't buying new Tupperware.
Nicole (22:03):
Yeah.
Patricia (22:03):
And then the same thing with Instant Pot.
Once you have an Instant Pot, like,then you have an Instant Pot, and it
works, and it's great, and you're notbuying a new Instant Pot every year.
And so that company also is, wasstruggling trying to figure out like
what do we pivot to because the thingwhere they got known for and making
(22:25):
their money, no one was buying itanymore because everyone already had one.
Nicole (22:29):
I think that's why you started seeing like weird attachments for
it, like an air fryer lid and stuff.
Patricia (22:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nicole (22:36):
The other thing that we think about, particularly as people who,
who live in the United States, isthat we are living on stolen land.
And this is a frequent point thatcomes up with Patricia and I.
Because we are renters, and we,of course, like many people, dream
(22:57):
of homeownership someday, but...
Patricia (23:00):
But what does homeownership mean on stolen land?
Nicole (23:02):
Right.
Patricia (23:02):
But then, like, we're basically paying housing for our landlord right
now, and it's, there's no way of winning.
Nicole (23:09):
Yeah.
Patricia (23:10):
A lot of what has kind of helped my thinking on a lot of this,
is the book Wallet Activism, How to UseEvery Dollar You Spend, Earn, and Save
as a Force for Change by Tanja Hester.
This book really, really helped mereframe how I think about all of this.
Nicole (23:30):
I read this recently and I similarly was just like, oh yeah,
this is, this is really helpful.
Patricia (23:37):
One of the things she goes over was using almond milk or oat
milk versus actual dairy, but thenalmond milk uses a lot of water, but
then how far does it travel to you?
And trying to like, weigh all thesethings when I just want a bowl of cereal.
Nicole (23:58):
There was also another aspect of that was that like, a lot of the,
the almond trees replaced what wasformerly cotton fields, which were
far more, like, water dependent.
Patricia (24:09):
Oh, I don't know.
Yeah.
Nicole (24:10):
There was something else.
There was, like, another factor in that,that some of the farming that was being
used to make the almonds that turned intoalmond milk was formerly cotton fields.
So, by transforming them and supportingthe farmers who were growing the almonds,
you're, in some ways, even thoughthey were maybe require more water in
(24:30):
one aspect, they're using less waterthan what was formerly in that field.
So you're encouraging thefarmers to do like, there's,
Patricia (24:36):
Yeah
Nicole (24:37):
levels of calculus to this.
Patricia (24:38):
But then I was like, we're in California where
we're always in a drought.
Nicole (24:40):
Yeah.
There's levels of calculus to all thisthat is, that this book goes into.
And I think it's really helpful inreframing how you think about some
of these products and what you aresaying when you purchase products.
Especially under this, like,capitalist economy system.
Patricia (25:00):
Let's talk about the other part of the phrase, Perfection
in the Progressive Olympics.
Progressive Olympics.
This is the term I use for thephenomenon of the implied hierarchy
of what we've been talking about.
It would be like me thinking I'mbetter than other people because
I'm learning to make my own pasta.
(25:21):
Like, I am not better thanother people because of that.
I'm learning because I thinkit's fun and it tastes good.
But also, I think pasta from thegrocery store tastes good, too.
I am very open to all types of pasta.
Nicole (25:35):
Are you a pan-pasta?
Patricia (25:38):
I don't know.
I'm not a pasta purist.
Nicole (25:41):
Okay.
I was actually thinking about this whenwe were at the grocery store on Sunday,
as I was buying a few more cups of yogurt,because I like to have them in the fridge,
especially as it's still been warm.
They make for a good part of my lunch.
But they all come in plastic, unlessI think if you buy like that one
particular French brand or something,but most of the yogurt comes in plastic.
(26:02):
And for the volume I want, because I'llsometimes supplement it instead of a
sandwich or something, it's in plastic.
And I was like, oh, [exhale]I could learn to make yogurt.
Patricia (26:12):
We have an instant pot.
Nicole (26:13):
We have an instant pot.
It has a yogurt button.
Um, and I have friends who've made yogurt.
It can't be that hard.
And that would help cutdown on packaging waste.
Yeah, and we could also,like, I, I love making bread.
I think it's fun, andthe bread is delicious.
Like, we could, we could make ourown bread, and we can make our own
pasta, and we can do all these things.
(26:33):
But then we wouldn't havetime for anything else.
Patricia (26:36):
We wouldn't have time for anything else.
And the internet, the tradwife internetalso tries to make you feel like
if you are doing all these things,you are better than other people.
Nicole (26:47):
Yeah
Patricia (26:47):
And that is not true.
Nicole (26:49):
Also, the tradwife internet does a weird thing where it leads people
to, like, white supremacist content.
Patricia (26:54):
Yep.
It's a direct line.
Nicole (26:55):
It's a direct line.
Do not fall down that rabbit hole.
Patricia (26:58):
But, yeah, like, constantly doing all of those things wouldn't
leave us time for anything else.
We have day jobs.
I have a whole other job with Book Riot.
I have writing.
We have this podcast.
We also need to clean and take careof the garden and I don't know,
see friends once in a while, and ifwe were doing all of those things,
(27:19):
we wouldn't be doing any of that.
Nicole (27:21):
Yeah.
Another example of this is thinkingsomeone who uses disposable
plates or cutlery is somehowless than a person who doesn't.
This is, this is really another,like, Progressive Olympics thing.
And you have to, like, reframethis into, like, that is, that's
an incredibly ableist thought.
(27:42):
You don't know everyone's story, andhonestly not everyone is in a place
in their life where they can have nicedishes and silverware that they can't
throw away, or is even able to wash them.
Patricia (27:54):
Yeah, and there are some people who just use them and they don't
like washing dishes, or they don't havetime because they're working multiple
jobs, and it's like, people are goingto make their own decisions, and you
are not somehow better than a personwho uses disposable cutlery and dishes.
Nicole (28:12):
Yeah
Patricia (28:12):
Or they are somehow not less than people who don't.
It goes back to the wholedisposable straw situation.
There are many people who need disposablestraws, and no one is better than anyone
else for either not using a straw.
Or carrying around a metal straw that thengets dirty and then you do what with it?
(28:33):
Do you just like put adirty straw in your purse?
I don't, like, I, I never reallyunderstood what was happening there.
Nicole (28:40):
Yeah, you have to like wrap it up in a thing and then you
have like a dirty straw in a...
Patricia (28:44):
In a dirty napkin that you then throw away, like, ugh.
Nicole (28:47):
Yeah, no.
I think about this a lot too.
I think this was something that wasmentioned in the Wallet Activism book.
When we started getting rid of all of theplastic straws, Starbucks introduced a
strawless lid, and in some circumstancesit was at least equivalent to the same
(29:07):
amount of plastic as the old plastic strawand lid combo, and in some situations
it actually ended up being more plastic
Patricia (29:16):
Oh my gosh.
Nicole (29:17):
by, by weight than the old straw and lid combo.
Patricia (29:21):
I'm fascinated how the whole conversation was around plastic straws
and not, say, like, cotton swabs.
Nicole (29:28):
Well, I mean, if there was dramatic footage of a sea turtle with uh,
cotton swabs stuck up its nose, then thatmight have been the conversation we had.
Patricia (29:40):
But the thing is, there is footage out there of
cotton swabs littering the ocean.
My take on it, my hot take, is thatthe beauty industry would never let
it fly to villainize cotton swabs.
Nicole (29:52):
Mmmm
Patricia (29:53):
And also, there's no quote unquote good replacement.
Nicole (29:57):
Yeah, there's not.
Wait, we're not going to geta, uh, a glass swab or a...
Patricia (30:03):
You know what?
I have seen a company,they made a silicone swab,
Nicole (30:06):
Yeah
Patricia (30:06):
but then you have to, like, rinse it.
I don't know.
Nicole (30:08):
Yeah
Patricia (30:08):
I don't know.
It seemed like it was doing a lot.
Um, there's an episode of Struggle Carethat I'll link to where they actually talk
about, like, environmentalism and ableism.
Nicole (30:19):
That's the, that's the episode with Imani Barbarin, right?
Patricia (30:22):
Yeah, Crutches and Spice.
Nicole (30:23):
Yeah.
Patricia (30:24):
She's great.
Nicole (30:24):
That was a good episode too.
Patricia (30:26):
I'm also fascinated by how something that started out as a
greener option like a Stanley Cup ora Hydro Flask suddenly morphed into
rampant consumerism and status symbols.
Nicole (30:38):
I mean, that's what capitalism does, right?
Especially with these higher priced itemsthat we've been kind of talking around.
They cost more because they'resupposedly higher quality.
And because of this higher price point, itbecomes a status symbol, which earns you
points in the Progressive Olympics, and...
Patricia (31:00):
Oh my gosh, yeah.
Nicole (31:03):
But then, because it becomes a status symbol, it is also consumed at a
higher rate, and then, as soon as it'sout of fashion, it's thrown away again.
And now you have this item that, whileit would have lasted years on your
shelf, lasts even longer in the landfill.
Patricia (31:20):
Yeah, I mean, you could tell when they're going out of fashion when
you start to check the thrift shops.
As soon as you see themshowing up at the thrift shops,
Nicole (31:27):
Mm hmm
Patricia (31:28):
you know they're over.
One of the effects of the idea that GroupA is morally superior than Group B is
that, say, when I end up having to throwsomething out that isn't recyclable,
there can be a lot of guilt around that.
Nicole (31:45):
The other side of this, like, trying to be perfect in the
Progressive Olympics is that becausethese more ethical, sustainable
options are often more expensive, Itleads to some people to believe that
having wealth is a reliable substitutefor being a more ethical person.
Patricia (32:08):
Yeah, like it's a proxy.
Nicole (32:09):
Yes.
And therefore, having wealth on itsown gets you more points towards that
Perfection in the Progressive Olympics.
Now, I want to be very clear here.
There is nothing morally superiorabout having more wealth, and nothing
(32:30):
morally inferior about being poor.
Patricia (32:35):
Absolutely.
I'm also fascinated how thecontext constantly changes.
Like, growing up, I grew upin my grandparents house.
They lived through the GreatDepression, and I grew up washing
Ziplocs, which I've mentioned before.
And, you know, that was not necessarilyseen as something people who are
wealthy do, right, wash their Ziplocs.
(32:57):
But now it's seen as somethingvery green and environmental.
And there's also, I'm only vaguely awareof the new under consumption core trend
online, where it's like a direct responseto the constant over consumption that
(33:18):
is especially popular on places withpictures like Instagram and TikTok.
And so people are like, making aestheticvideos of like, using what they have,
and I'm like, oh, like, normal people?
Nicole (33:32):
It is impossible to win at achieving Perfection
in the Progressive Olympics.
We don't have to play that game, butit is important that we try to be
ethical in our choices where we can.
Every little bit does help, and thatmeans sometimes we are better in
some places than others, but pleaserecognize that while it's good to make
(33:56):
your little individual effort, theamount of waste any individual person
creates, or can stop creating palesin comparison to that generated by
these massive corporations out there.
Those are the ones really responsible forall of the environmental problems we have.
Patricia (34:18):
Yeah, and I also think about it when it's like, oh yeah, I want to buy
Black, or I want to buy Asian, or whathave you, and sometimes it's like that
thing you want, you can't find a personin that group that makes that thing.
Nicole (34:31):
Yeah.
Patricia (34:32):
And that's just the way it is.
I mean, if you are a person ofcolor, you can make your own thing.
But anyway, at the beginning, Imentioned we want to talk about this
because it's election season, andI think a lot about these ideas of
Perfection in the Progressive Olympicsin the context of political candidates.
(34:52):
I don't think there's such a thingas the perfect candidate because
people are not perfect creatures.
I think it's important tovote, especially down ballot.
I think it's important to push candidatesand officials toward a more just world.
And I think, recognizing that politiciansare not perfect and they're not going
to save us, it is important to continueorganizing and doing community work and
(35:16):
supporting folks doing the community work.
Nicole (35:18):
Whew.
That was a lot to pack in there.
Patricia (35:21):
Yeah.
Nicole (35:22):
What do you want to make sure people take away from this episode?
Patricia (35:27):
I want everyone to recognize when you're, when
you're doing this spiraling.
Recognize when you're setting yourselfon fire to keep other people warm.
It is so easy to burn out trying todo everything right and every right
thing, and it's actually impossible.
What do you want people to take away?
Nicole (35:48):
I want people to keep an eye out for how they're participating in
this attempt at achieving Perfectionin the Progressive Olympics.
And how that shows up in their life in theform of unconscious biases for people who
have less disposable income to purchasethe newest green product or whatever.
Music (36:11):
[Transition Music]
Nicole (36:19):
[Exhale] Okay, that was kind of heavy.
Patricia (36:22):
Yeah.
Nicole (36:23):
Patricia, what has been filling your cup lately?
Patricia (36:26):
It's actually kind of related to the show, which is, we have a lot
of stuff, and what's actually filledmy cup is we've decided to really
maybe focus more on like a nice dinneror doing something, going on a road
trip or something, for each other forChristmas instead of buying more things.
(36:50):
Like we don't really haveshelf space for more dustables.
We have all the books and all theplants and all the perfume and it's
actually kind of maybe not filled mycup, but it's lifted a weight from me.
Not having to expect to bemaking room for, for more items.
Nicole (37:10):
This is something we actually did in the pre COVID era, and we
did a lot of really fun things.
Patricia (37:16):
Yeah, we need to, now that it's still COVID, it's the, I don't
like saying post COVID era, but it's...
Nicole (37:24):
We have better mitigation.
Patricia (37:26):
We have better mitigation, and like, it makes us be creative, too,
Nicole (37:30):
Yeah
Patricia (37:30):
about what we do.
Nicole (37:31):
Yeah.
Patricia (37:32):
Nicole, what's filling your cup?
Nicole (37:34):
I am holding on to things in the future right now.
We're going to go to our localRenaissance Faire this coming weekend,
but we also have a lot of autumnaladventures planned and other various
things, and I'm just, it feels reallynice to have things to look forward to.
Patricia (37:52):
Yeah.
Well, that's our show for today.
We'd like to thank our awesomeaudio editor, Jen Zink.
You can find her at loopdilou.com,and we'll leave a link to
that in our show notes.
Nicole (38:02):
You can find the full show notes and transcript at eedapod.com,
that's E E D A P O D dot com.
There you can also find a link to ourPatreon, our Bookshop link, and a link
to the ongoing Enthusiastic Encouragementand Dubious Advice newsletter.
You can also find us on Instagramand bluesky at eedapod and
(38:24):
email us at eedapod@gmail.com.
Patricia (38:27):
We are nothing if not consistent.
Nicole (38:28):
We would appreciate it so much if you would subscribe and rate us on
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever youget your podcasts that allow ratings.
It really does go far inhelping other people find us.
Patricia (38:41):
We would also appreciate anyone who can subscribe to us on Patreon.
Support there is going to help us keepthis show going, especially without ads.
You can find us at patreon.com/eedapod.
In the meantime, we hope youfind ways to be kind to yourself.
Drink some water and read a book.
We'll be talking to you soon.
(39:03):
I wish we bought corndogs the other day.
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