May 10, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode, Stef & Sarah (the duo behind Life After Diets) kick off a new podcast project exploring emotional awareness, self-understanding, and mental wellness.
Drawing inspiration from Carl Jung and Eckhart Tolle, they unpack how we actually experience our emotions — especially the tangled web between anger, sadness, and shame. Through personal stories and candid reflections, they explore how emotions shape our behaviors, relationships, and sense of self.
If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by your feelings or unsure what you’re even feeling in the first place, this episode will resonate. With their signature mix of depth, humor, and honesty, Stef & Sarah open the door to both intellectual and embodied healing — one emotional insight at a time.
TOPICS & TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Introduction and Podcast Background
01:05 Quotes That Inspire Us
01:29 Exploring Feelings and Self-Awareness
05:35 The Role of Anger and Sadness
07:38 Personal Experiences with Anger
20:15 Shame and Its Impact
23:11 Exploring Cognitive and Embodied Shame
23:58 Is It Possible to Fully Eradicate Shame?
24:36 The Human Experience of Shame
27:33 Reducing Shame Levels
29:51 Shame, Anger, and Blame
39:04 The Role of Self-Compassion and Advocacy
40:00 Wrapping Up and Looking Ahead
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:24):
Well fancy seeing you here.
Wow.
Here we are.
We recorded episode two already,just to avoid the awkwardness
of this, but I'm hearing it.
Yes.
So for anybody joining us who perhapsdoesn't know who we are, Stef and
I, we have another podcast together.
This is our second podcast
our other podcast is about food and bodyimage, and it's called Life After Diets.
(00:46):
But we decided to do a second one.
We like each
other that much.
We've been podcasting together for fouryears We talk about recovery from food
and body image stuff, but we like togo deep and there are so many topics
and branches that we wanna go off down.
So we are creating this newspace in order to do that.
But perhaps to give you a senseof whether this podcast is gonna
(01:07):
be for you, I would say thispodcast is inspired by two quotes.
One of them's mine and one of them,Steph, not, we didn't come up with them.
We chose these quotes, which willgive you an idea of the vibe Yeah.
Of this podcast.
Do you wanna share your quote, Steph?
Sure.
It's by Carl Young, and it's until wemake the unconscious conscious, it will
direct our lives and we'll call it fate.
(01:29):
So this podcast is about increasingself-awareness, understanding
why we behave the way we do, whywe seem to act in self-defeating
cycles at times, and then tryingto figure out our way through that.
My quote is the Necar tole quote,which is around being at least as
interested in your own reaction tosomething as you are towards the
(01:49):
thing that caused your reaction.
It's a self-awareness podcast, right?
, But I think part of the difference.
Between our other podcast and thisone is that we, we also contemplated
naming this, , a, a coach and atherapist walk into a podcast.
Um, I think, not that we're notvulnerable because we certainly are , on
our other podcast platform, but theactual navigation of this, not from
(02:13):
the point of view of here's what to do.
We've got it all figured out,but we're figuring it out too.
And when we talk about it in this space,we learn , as we're talking about it,
as we're learning from each other, aswe're clarifying it even to ourselves.
, So.
For me, I feel like , this podcastenergetically to me feels a little bit
more like a space to be rather thanto, uh, you know, have these answers
(02:37):
and, , , I feel a little more humanrather than coach in this, in this arena.
At least right now.
At least so far in the 40seconds we've been recording.
Another title that we both likedwas Why We Are The Way We Are.
Yeah.
However, there are a lotof podcasts out there.
I think there's at least sixother podcasts with that title.
Oh, that's
(02:57):
right.
Yeah.
. But that's what we're here for.
And so today we are talking aboutthe concept of feelings in general,
, and why we're talking about 'em.
What, why bother?
Because they're reallyannoying and mm-hmm.
Uncomfortable.
. , I think I have blamed my feelings for my inconsistencies at times.
(03:19):
So if I feel like doingsomething, I'll do it.
I. Sometimes I have resistance andI dunno why I have resistance, and
then sometimes I'm judging myselffor how I'm feeling about something.
I guess what I'm trying tosay in my confused way is
that feelings are confusing
and trying to actually unpick themrather than just trying to be rational.
(03:40):
So I think if you feel like your feelingsare wrong or your feelings are getting in
the way, what I would do is I would try toavoid suppress and repress those feelings,
and then they start, like the Carl Youngquote, they start acting on my behaviors
and my moods outside of my awareness.
Mm-hmm.
So actually by bringing feelingsinto awareness, they might seem
(04:01):
inconvenient because how we'refeeling about something might be
part of what's getting in the way.
Take social anxiety, for example.
If you're out there in a social situationand you want to connect, but this
feeling of anxiety is stopping you fromdoing that, that's pretty inconvenient.
And then the self-judgment comes in,which exacerbates the social anxiety.
I also think the value of like ourdifferent experiences here because.
(04:25):
I definitely, I don't think, is thereanyone among us who doesn't find certain
feelings to be more palatable than othersand to, and then to, you know, suppress
the ones that don't feel comfortable.
I, maybe some of us do that moreacross the board or lean into
logic and intellectualization more.
But I also would say, like, Ican look back at my experience
(04:47):
of relating to my emotions andcertainly find the ones where.
I have felt like , they're notwelcome here, but I've also not
necessarily felt like I neededto just not have them at all.
I have just leaned on certainones that are more comfortable and
then over identified with them.
And so , the vigilance in me , is like,oh, no, I feel I have feelings and I know
what they are and I can be with them.
(05:08):
But it's like, oh, yes, yes,Stephanie, but specific ones and
the ones that you're familiar with,and the ones that you've deemed to
be , okay, you know, and that it.
Or that we even need tobe always in our feelings.
I think there's like a,there's a spectrum of this.
There's a spectrum of finding rationalthought and balancing that with
feelings so that we're not always overidentified with, being an emotion and
(05:29):
acting from an emotion all the time.
So, which feelings are morepalatable to you and which
feelings are the most inconvenient?
Oh God.
Well, okay.
I feel like I'm a little bit in theminority on this one potentially, but
anger is one I feel more comfortable with.
I'm actually familiar with angerand it is an easier go-to for me
than on uncertainty, fear, sadness.
(05:52):
I find those to be more vulnerable.
I will click that can down the.
Curb, is that what we say?
Kick down the road, kick thecan down the road, um, on those.
And I put anger in itsplace because it's fiery.
, I can do something with it.
I can act.
, , it takes up more space in my bodythat I wanna, like, translate out
and I can keep moving with it.
And I feel like when it gets quieterand when the stillness is more potent,
(06:17):
that's where sadness, that's where the,the, the lower energy emotions live.
And I don't feel as comfortable.
In a lower energy state.
'cause I feel like I'mgonna, I'm gonna drown.
So, um, that's an explorationfor me even right now.
It won't surprise you to know thatanger is probably the one I find
the most challenging and sadness isprobably the easier one for me to go to.
(06:38):
Sadness.
There's something in sadness for methat feels like a surrender and almost
like a letting go, you know, for yours.
Yours is the anger'sfiery and it feels active.
The sadness, I think comes fromperhaps feeling a bit defeated by
certain things in certain situations.
So bigger global events, I'm much morelikely to go to defeat and sadness.
(07:00):
I. Surrender to it happening, whichmy experience of that is that it
actually brings me more peace.
But then the part of me that judgesis, oh, so you're just letting everyone
else go out there and be the activist.
I don't know if there's an activist in me,but I feel a bit of judgment that perhaps
there should be, and by, by going downthis route or route, am I being passive?
(07:23):
Am I avoiding something?
I'm feeling something.
And it does feel like asurrender and a letting go.
Certainly when I'm aware of itand I consciously allow it, it
brings enormous relief to go downthe sad path than to feel angry.
So then, have you beenexperimenting with anger at all?
Like, 'cause we've been talking about thisin the, in the, in the old podcast, and so
(07:46):
it's not something new to your awarenessthat like, this is, this exists, have you?
Are you sitting in a place of like,yeah, I'm just aware of it, or
are you playing with anger at all?
I feel like I've done some of the work onanger is letting go of my judgment of it.
'cause for me, anger was not nice for me.
If I feel angry with somebody.
Then I feel like I'm just notbeing, I'm not being a nice person.
(08:07):
it feels like it's not the kindof person that I want to be.
And by allowing the anger and naming itand saying, I feel so angry right now with
this situation, with this person, and, andI'm probably gonna use the word validate
quite a lot in this, in this podcast,but when I validate that emotion, and I
don't make myself wrong for having it.
(08:29):
It actually tends to pass.
And again, I, because I don't, Idon't wanna stay stuck in anger.
It feels like it's burning my inside.
You know?
You say you feel like you'redrowning with sadness.
Yeah.
I feel like I'm burning with anger andI think I would rather drown than burn.
So, but maybe it calls the questionlike, is the, is this really just about
(08:50):
fear of being in an uncomfortable space?
Not even the story attached to it,like drowning or burning are both under
the umbrella of a story of discomfort.
You know, it's like one would ratherthis and one would rather that, but
both of these things are uncomfortable.
Why bother?
Why do we need to shiftit in the first place?
Or why do we need to?
Like why, what's the problem with mestaying angry and you staying sad?
(09:11):
What's the value of exploringa different type of emotion?
Anyway,
I think that's so personal because Idon't think that there's any kind of.
Moral obligation to feel all the emotionsor that there's a should in there.
And I know you're not saying should,but for me it's just more about from
my own personal understanding andrelentless self-examination that I want
(09:35):
to understand these parts of me andI want to understand how the judgment
of anger or the blocking of anger isthat causing me problems elsewhere.
Because what happens then is ifI don't allow the anger, is that.
I'll try to suppress that angerand that for me is then more likely
to just manifest in a low mood,which isn't the same as sadness.
(09:59):
It's a low mood.
I think I really somatize my emotions,like I really hold them in my body
and I think by pushing down anger.
I have to deaden my energyin order to do that.
And actually by even just validating,acknowledging and not judging
anger, something moves through me.
It feels more like a release of angerwhen I'm allowed to be angry, I can feel
(10:20):
it, but then it does pass quite quickly.
So there's always a question inmy mind going, well, why does
it pass as quickly as it does?
I don't know.
I, that's a blind spotto me at the moment.
Hmm.
Well.
It's also to me, I feel like when we havea reliance on, I'll just speak for myself.
So anger's comfortable to me.
(10:40):
Uh, it's comfortable to me because yes,it's familiar and it was part of my
growing up, but also it's protective,like anger protects me from the things
that I am afraid, that if I don't feelangry about them, that they will override
me or overcome me or I'll be takenadvantage of or something like that.
So in some ways, anger has been.
This like ally right?
(11:02):
That, and I don't have the associationsof it as being necessarily mean
or, , aggressive in a, in, in away that feels threatening to me.
But if I stay in that comfort zone,which is so weird 'cause I know that
most people will be like, what you'retalking about, anger as a comfort zone.
But I mean, some peoplewill, will feel this.
(11:23):
Then I'm setting my life up to.
Then I need it to be this way.
Right?
And then that's defensive.
And then I'm going to do, I'm gonnalook at my life and I'm gonna look at
myself, and I'm gonna look at otherpeople that I'm in relationships with
and all of the, all of the things thatcome into conflict with my existence.
And I'm gonna need to fit it aroundmy anger instead of like, it's gonna
(11:46):
be trying to like put a, put a squarepeg in a round hole at, at some point
I'm not gonna be able to learn becausethere's gonna be too much of a need
to create the story around the anger.
So if I don't move out of my comfortzone, , I don't evolve and I, this is a
value for me is like evolving, moving,taking down the defenses when I'm ready.
(12:09):
And I think that's also a piecebecause I think that there's, I.
Also a need to keep those defensesstrong, to bolster something that is
vulnerable and unsure in the beginning.
But once the structure is set, that'sthe place where I wanna be like, okay,
how do I need to reconfigure things sothat I can let more in and I can see more
(12:30):
people in the story or see more otherperspectives in this story without having
to so vehemently defend mine because.
It is only when I have, ugh, it's painful,but like when I have, when I have softened
my anger that I'm actually able to seeother sides and other things that I wasn't
seeing in my anger that feel to, to behonest with me and working in therapy on
(12:53):
this, like it feels like, um, potentially
dangerous, like to see itfrom the other side in case my
side isn't, isn't bolstered.
So there's something about growth itselfthat comes from the deconstruction of
the safe emotion and, and a readinessfor this as well, that I'm feeling
a lot all the time and, and feelinglike the ask right now for me is to
(13:16):
be exploring this other way of meetingmyself and my life and other people.
. So I have a question.
Yeah.
Would you prefer somebody was angry withyou or sad let's say you upset somebody,
would you prefer their response to beanger or to feel sad about what you did?
Sad.
Interesting.
A hundred percent.
I'm afraid of someone being angryat me, which is why I have anger.
(13:36):
Because if I get there first, thenI have less, then I, then I feel
like I'm on the stronger foot andI feel, and I live defensively.
I live on the defense, so.
If you are sad with me, I'mlike, oh, I can work with that.
I can then soften too.
But if someone's angry at me, I,I feel like I lose, and again,
this is childhood, you know?
Mm-hmm.
But yeah, it's way more comfortableto have someone be sad than angry.
(14:01):
Mm-hmm.
How about you?
I dunno, I've kind of gone backand forth in my mind with it.
When I first thought of the question,my initial response was sadness.
But then I thought, oh no, liketo make somebody, make somebody.
You know what I mean?
I did something that causedsomebody else to feel sad.
There's something in the angerthat's self-protective and
I would want that for them.
Hmm.
'cause if there's sad, I've somehowlike trampled them underfoot
(14:24):
to make somebody feel sad.
Whereas if they're angry with me.
Hmm.
It's so interesting.
I think if they're angry with me,I can feel a bit defensive about
the fact they're angry with me.
Even if, even if the thing thatI did so interesting, um, yeah.
Was was, you know, worthy ofa, an angry response as such.
Yeah.
And that surprised me as I thought.
'cause my first thought was sadness,but then when I sat with how that
(14:46):
felt for someone to be sad over angry,and I wouldn't want explosive anger.
If someone was able to say to me,calmly, actually, I felt really angry
about that when you did that, butthey're safe in themselves, in their
anger, then I would prefer anger.
If their anger isn't safe withinthem, then that's kind of like, well,
what's gonna happen with their anger?
(15:06):
Yeah.
Um, there might be like a natural.
Energy balancing between two people.
That if you are leaning, if you're morecomfortable with sadness, that that's
why, the other side of the scale wouldbalance the equilibrium and even allow
you to become more indignant in someway and to, and to change your energy.
Mm-hmm.
For me, when I think about someone elsebeing sad, I'm like, oh, I can, we can fix
that, even though that's not the point.
(15:28):
But like if someone's sad, I'm like.
In my, in my, I wouldnever wanna hurt anybody.
I would never, I would never do that.
That would never be my intention.
So to me there's like, oh, there mustbe some misconception then, because I
would never want somebody to be sad.
Whereas anger, I can'tsee even that clearly.
It's like if anger meets anger.
I don't know.
(15:49):
I can't even think beyond this sentence.
Like, I, I just, it, Idon't have a foothold in, in
understanding what's happening.
haven't you had the experience of anger,meeting anger when you've touched on your
dad, for example, so he's been angry andthen you felt angry about him being angry.
So what's, what's that for you?
When anger versus angerwill just regulate me.
So anytime that I'm in confrontation withanger, I can't, I have not yet at the
(16:14):
point where I can, I shouldn't say that.
If it's potent anger, I can't regulate.
So I will go into my old self, Iwill go into my primal reactions.
I will become a version ofmyself that I'm not proud of.
. Because there is no, I can'tthink when my dad gets mad at
(16:34):
me or when anyone else does.
And it rises to the level of likereal, , like volume or intensity.
Not that this happens a lot, you know,but it does happen in my family system.
. Or like when I get, you know, when ithappens, when I get, , when a, when a
police officer I've talked to you aboutthis will like , one time I missed the,
(16:54):
I missed the, where I was supposed to goduring a reroute of a construction route.
And I started to go the wrong way.
And the guy you got really mad at me andhe was like, boy, he was going like this.
And he was, he was aggressive, you know,he wasn't obviously gonna come get me.
I didn't feel unsafe,but he was mad at me.
It was like he was mad at meand I got so enraged back and
I, I ca I just can't stay cool.
I go into this like.
(17:16):
Oh, like I, I just wanna scream and Iget my, the fuck comes in my chest and
I can't think about it until for hours.
Like, I need to go home, I needto calm down physically, and then
I need to reassess what happened.
But I can't do it there.
And then, and that leaves me veryvulnerable because I can't, I can't act
on my own behalf in that moment becauseI'm gonna be only acting from a raw, which
(17:38):
is essentially the reason why I used to.
Binge in anger or restrict in angerbecause it was just this like,
ah, like it was just so primal.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so the, the work for me isregulating anger more in real time, which
will require a softening, I think it willrequire me to become the other side of
that energy balance, which is so hardfor me to do when it feels so vulnerable.
(17:59):
Mm-hmm.
So what would be the most convenient?
Emotion to feel then when thepolice officer is yelling at you
for going the wrong way and is mad.
I used to be a policeofficer for nine years.
I know.
And I see my colleagues get madat the most ridiculous things and
yell at members of the public.
I'm like, come on guys.
Did you ever out?
Yes.
(18:21):
Oh gosh.
I remember one time this person, just keptdriving right up my backside, like bumper
to bumper behind, and I kept puttingmy, my brakes on slowly to slow it down.
And, oh God, I shouldn'tsay this on a podcast.
Why?
Oh.
'cause it's like one, I shouldn'tdo this as a police officer.
Did you go?
But I also, I really want to saythat I probably would've been about
(18:42):
22 years old, just, and I'm 42years old now and this is not okay.
You're outside the, um,statute of limitations.
Yeah.
I was so annoyed that they were notgetting the hint to give me more
space that I slammed my brakes on.
So they had to slam their brakes on.
Did they hear you?
No.
So then they were like, what the heck?
And I got outta thecar and I told 'em off.
(19:02):
And what did they do?
Oh, not much.
They, you know, they didn't,
I can't imagine doing that to a policeofficer knowing they're a police officer.
Like, why would you bait a police officer?
Maybe that was part of my indignation.
I'll tell you, this isan interesting thing.
Really.
I would say in my teens andmy early twenties, I was way
more fiery than I am now.
Huh.
I, I've, I, I dunno we've spoken aboutthis specifically before, but when I
(19:26):
was 26 and I had a pituitary tumor andmy pituitary hormones, just, everything
changed, like hormonally in my body.
Everything changed.
I've sometimes joked about it.
It was kind of like being nted, you know,like when you have a cat that's just a
bit more hyperactive and then he has hisballs chopped and he's just a lot calmer.
That's genuinely how it felt likemy felt energy in my body changed.
(19:49):
With my hormonal makeup changing.
Mm. And then people started calling me.
Nice.
I'd never been callednice before I got tumor.
Really?
I don't think I was very nice.
I mean, that's gonna bring inthis question of like the impact
of hormones on our emotions.
Right.
Which is
a different episode.
We cannot, oh my goodness.
Yes.
But there is one We can't
(20:10):
open that, that can of worms in thisfirst episode, but we can get there.
We can get there.
At the moment, we've focusedon anger and sadness.
I do wanna mention shame.
I think shame needs an honorablemention in this episode.
Okay.
Because I think it is.
One of the most inconvenient emotions,and I'm not talking about when you
might appropriately feel bad when youdrop the ball or you let somebody down.
(20:34):
I'm talking about that chronic deep shame,that feeling that just tells you that you
are not the person you're supposed to be.
You are not showing up theway you're supposed to be.
You fail at everything you do.
For example, when I was struggling withfood 'cause go round and round in this
cycle, trying to change everything, changeeverything, and then not able to do it.
(20:56):
And so the mind just settles on, oh,the reason why I can't fix this problem,
which seems to make rational sense.
Just eat moderation.
Right?
How difficult can that be?
The conclusion my brain, I think alot of brains come to is, oh, there
must be something wrong with me.
So now fixing that problem with foodis not just about getting rid of the
discomfort and the difficulties ofhaving the problem in the first place,
(21:20):
but you need to fix this problem so youcan finally feel okay about yourself.
I think this is complicated and I'mlearning more about how complicated it
is because I. F would've told you thatthrough recovery, I really addressed shame
and I didn't feel like I struggled withit anymore because what you're saying
(21:41):
is I deconstructed the logic of that.
So when I realized that, you know,my relationship to food was much more
physiological and psychological andthe merit of that and the influence
of that, , that was beyond consciouscontrol was right in in the unconscious
layers and even in the primal.
Autonomic layers.
This gave me a really embodiedunderstanding that this isn't my fault.
(22:05):
And I was able to intellectually letgo of a lot of what I had been using
as character assassinations for myselfand being like, this is physiology, at
least on this food and body image level.
And from there I was able to actuallydo that in a lot of other places.
. But I think that what I did and whatI'm beginning to think I did, which
isn't unhelpful, it's super helpful andI stand by it and will never, uh, I, I
(22:29):
don't wanna lose touch with it, is thatI intellectually deconstructed this idea.
But I have been running uplately against, not with food.
I think maybe that one's a little bit of adifferent thing, but I've been running up
against situations where I'm being judged.
And my intellect can absolutely dismantleit and be like, everybody's different.
(22:54):
Everybody will judge everybody ofcourse you have parts of yourself that
others won't like, and there's partsof you that aren't evolved or aren't,
you know, or have a darker side.
And some of, and some of thosevery same qualities are attributes
if you look at it the other way.
And I can do all of that cognitively.
And I do, and it helps.
It helps a lot.
'cause then I'm not struggling in likethe cognitive shame as well, but my body.
(23:16):
Won't let it go.
And this is a feeling, I, I thinkthis is shame, but it doesn't, it
doesn't come across as, what I would'vethought is shame because it, it's
fronted by this intellectual rejection.
It's like, no, you're,there's like, it's not you.
Like I, and I'm very like fiercelythere, here, but in my body I'm
like, you are just, I can't, it'snot words, it's just this feeling of.
(23:43):
Less than this or wrongness thatno amount of intellect can shake.
And I think I've confused, like I,and what I thought wasn't shame.
I thought I wasn't carrying shame.
I think what I mean is I'vedeconstructed cognitive shame.
I, I don't know how possible it is.
And I'm beginning, this is my, I'llask you what you think, but, uh,
this is where I stand right now.
(24:03):
I don't know if a humanbeing can ever fully.
Not have , some kind of primalexistential in our cells.
Maybe it's epigenetic shame, it'smaybe what we do with it that can
have a lot of influence, but do youthink it's possible to fully get
at shame from the embodied level?
(24:26):
I do, I do think it's possible.
I'm not saying I'vedone it, but, oh, well.
That's a question, part
of the question.
Have you?
Yeah.
Okay.
No, because I, I don't know.
as I, as I go through life, I lookat who, even who I, who I am now, or
my sense of myself now, just comparedto five years ago, compared to 10
years ago compared to 15 years ago.
(24:48):
You know, I might be 20 years from that.
I don't know.
But I, I think for me, it's notabout going, it should be possible.
It's just about going, I don't know.
And let's see how far, how much thatshame can be eased and released.
Yeah.
I, I wanna see how far it cango, and I'm open to the idea.
That it could be completely removed.
(25:10):
I mean, that's a higher levelof consciousness, right?
And I'm not suggestingthat it's something.
And also to turn it into somethingto achieve kind of makes almost
like a hierarchy and Oh, lookat me like I managed to like
rid my body of all this shame.
And then everyone else who hasn'tis like, well that's another thing
that I feel shame about 'cause I'msupposed to be able to get rid of this.
I don't think it's that.
I think, I think the minute we closeoff, I'm gonna say I, the minute I
(25:34):
close off the possibility of something.
That's not helpful, but the minute Iturn it into a should, it's not helpful.
The minute I turn it into like,an ideal to obtain not helpful.
See if I, if I don't give myselfthe opportunity to think, maybe
it's not possible to eradicate shamefrom the human body, I actually
(25:56):
find, do myself a disservicebecause there's something about.
Oh, sorry.
There was, whoa, there was a shadowon my mouth that looked like blackness
coming from my teeth, and I didn't know.
It's like, shame, it's incarnate.
Um, it's coming outta your body.
That's what it looked like.
I was like, well, I'mtalking about this too long.
(26:17):
Um.
I think that I felt a lot ofrelief actually in coming to this
realization that I don't think Iknow anybody, even the gurus, right?
Like even the Mel Robbins, who I don'teven think of as a guru, but like, I know,
um, but the, the people who g Maite, likethe people who have, have been working
on shame even for a really long time.
I don't think anybody is free of it.
(26:38):
I, I re and of course that's my opinion,but I don't, and then it's kind of like.
Is it our human plate to have shame?
And I do believe that there is somekind of higher level of consciousness
that probably when one could reach, Ijust don't think in our lifetime or at
the current level of humanity that itnecessarily is possible and that therefore
I would rather think to myself, in mylifetime, in this one, this lifetime,
(27:03):
I likely won't have access to whatI need to, the resources I need in,
in our culture to be free of shame.
That might not be the askof this level of humanity.
Therefore, I need to operateunder the assumption that
it's okay for me to have it.
And I understand that what you're sayingis that, but for me, I conceptualize
it like, yes, it's allowed to behere and maybe even is appropriate.
(27:25):
Like I don't even know if there'smuch I could do about it, which
frees me from the should of likethis idea that I could not have it.
So question, do you thinkthen it's possible to release
more shame from the body?
At the moment it's a black andwhite, the shame's in the body, or
it's not with the level of shamethat can be activated in your body?
Yeah.
(27:45):
Let's say it's, at themoment it's a hundred.
Do you think that could be
reduced by half in your lifetime?
Yes.
Yes.
And I think I've done that and I thinklike even just this week I've been
experiencing shame and I have beenmore, I've treated it differently.
I absolutely have felt it to my core.
And then I'm like meeting it in new ways,which half in part has to do with what
(28:07):
we talked about in the beginning of thisepisode of softening anger, , and so I
don't know that I've dealt with shamequite, so I don't know, , intentionally.
Until recently, , from the embodiedpoint of view, from the somatic point
of view, and I do think it's changed myexperience of it, even though it hurts,
but I think that I'm doing somethingdifferent with it that's decreasing
(28:30):
Its intensity, or at least it'sduration, which must be a way of, yeah.
A hundred to 50 or something like that.
Mm-hmm.
And I agree.
I think it may not bepossible in our lifetime.
I do think that humans are evolving.
I think consciousness evolves.
Yeah.
And maybe it's just about doing our part.
Yeah.
So much of my work and your MO workas well is about it helping people
(28:53):
to reduce their shame levels andthen hopefully like they go through
their lives with lower shame levelsand they then pass that on to.
They're kids or other peoplethat they come into contact with.
Because I, I also think that,certainly for me anyway, if my shame
is activated, then it's likely tobe projected onto other people.
Yeah.
Like I feel annoyed with other people.
(29:14):
So someone says something.
Yes.
And, and it hits me andI have a strong reaction.
And then gonna to try and protectmyself from the shame, even though
the shame has been triggered, push itoutwards into blame, you know, or into,
I think something that I've, I've, I'm.
This is so hard to talk about sometimes.
'cause I sometimes I gotta saysomething like, but is that true?
(29:34):
Yeah.
Is that true?
Well, a lot of things are true.
Maybe it's one true thing.
Or an angle of truth.
Yes.
And the, the, it can be both trueand not true at the same time.
Righting And the opposite.
The opposite can be true.
Yeah, exactly.
One of the ways that I've heard aboutshame spoken about is it is the type
(29:55):
of anger actually, which is interesting'cause we've touched on anger already.
Yes.
And that when it's turnedinwards, it's shame.
And then when it's turnedoutwards, it's blame.
Yes.
Right.
So something happens and there isa reaction often in the body like
you, you feel, for me anyway, Imight feel something before I'm
aware of the thought and maybeyou're aware of the thought first.
I'm not sure.
'cause I know your mind works.
(30:16):
Very quickly, so I will feelsomething, and then the reaction.
It's likely to be, let's say somebodyleaves a mean comment on YouTube.
My initial response that I am awareof is defensiveness, and if I unpick
that, I think there's probably, well,there's definitely blame in there.
Sometimes shame.
Not necessarily.
It needs to be a vulnerable point.
(30:37):
Right.
'cause there've been many times I'vebeen annoyed by a comment, but I've
also been felt very separate from it.
It hasn't felt that personal.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Felt more like an irritation.
And other times when people havesaid something that has felt more
personal, I, I go to anger as well.
I never go to, oh, you are right.
I'm terrible.
It's never that black and white for me.
(30:58):
Mean, neither black, and she says,
in a
black and
white way.
Never black and white.
Never the keyword.
Never.
Never.
Well, I mean, it's, it's aninteresting thing to think about.
I, I don't know.
I, the shame I'm talkingabout doesn't feel like anger.
Hmm.
It, it isn't, I'm not angry at myself.
I'm sad at myself like I'm.
(31:18):
It.
It's because it harbors some sliverof truth, and it's a truth that's
been skewed and magnified in away that maybe that would make
me angry is the misunderstanding.
But like whenever somebody sayssomething to me that points out a truth,
?That I even already know about myself, but when somebody says
it to me and condemns me for it,
(31:39):
I'm not mad at myself.
I can feel that.
I'm not, I, I just feel bad.
I just feel like I'm not good.
I, no, it's not even, I'm not good enough.
I feel like so overused.
It's just, I just feel small.
I feel, and I feel dumb, and Ifeel rejected and I feel alone.
And I don't think it's my fault 'causeI have the consciousness about it.
(32:02):
So like, there's something about,it's like I'm accountable to it.
I'm not, not accountable to it.
But then what?
Like, to me it's like the worst placebecause if I could be mad, I would
be because I, and I would do that.
But then after that is this otherfeeling that I'm avoiding, which
is more of this sadness thatsomebody thinks about me like that.
And actually I might think thatthe places where I could be taken
(32:25):
there, it needs to be something thatI haven't fully accepted in myself.
So if I fully accept a part of me.
The, you know, isn't the ideal.
For whatever reason, someone else'scomments are not gonna hit that part.
Not to be, there's no emotionalreaction, but I'm not gonna feel
that sense of like a sinking feeling.
(32:47):
And I think you're right.
I don't, I'm now completely questioningeverything I've said so far about
shame, but it's that sinking feeling.
But there are things that I have.
in my body, made peace withabout myself and other things
that are just more tender areas.
It needs to be a tender area.
So I think the better and better ourrelationship becomes with ourselves and
(33:10):
the more and more we allow for all parts.
But again, is this just like aintellectualization, like you're
saying, when it's in the body, canwe Right, can we reach it there?
I'm not,
I'm not even sure.
I, I, I'm beginning to think that whateverfeeling it is, shame or, or anything else.
There are more, there is morethan one story to whatever it is.
There's 50 stories about.
(33:32):
Whatever that emotion representsor the story it's telling and none
of them are true and all of themare true and or maybe it's more, I
could just say all of them are true.
And because of that there is no oneway, like you can be very self aligned
and very okay with yourself or, or haveawareness of yourself or these things,
but because there's another truth to it,there's another way of thinking about
(33:52):
it that somebody else has picked up on.
, that's a reality.
It's a sliver of truth that you're facing.
And even if your intellect is like,yes, but that's not the truth I wanna
pay attention to, or that I, or Ithink is necessary to pay attention
to, there's, it still exists.
And just knowing it exists, Ithink brings up a very human
(34:13):
a feeling of like, that thing exists.
Mm-hmm.
And that's why I think it's,it's part of being a human.
I, I think it's about ourunderstanding of truth.
yeah.
Yeah, and I don't think it'sas black and white either.
As I, I first said about is whetheryou've fully accepted it or you haven't.
I think there's a whole,whole scale of that.
I used to be really defensive, sothere's a part of me that I don't like,
(34:35):
which is, and I know I've spoken to youabout this before and you've been like,
I don't see that, and it's because Iwork hard on it, but there's a part of
me that just, that wants to be right.
In a way that certainly inthe past, so pre my hormonal
neutering, I was insufferable.
If I heard somebody say something thatI'm like, Hmm, that doesn't sound true.
(34:56):
I would have to argue the toss.
To be like, no, that'snot, that's not true.
That that was the score on thatgame on that day or whatever.
It was like minor rubbish.
That just doesn't matter.
And now I let so much stuff gowhen people say something or they
say it in my mind incorrectly.
Yeah.
Ooh.
I just, I don't say anything, but there'sa little part of me that wants to go.
(35:19):
I want 'em to know they're wrong.
Yeah.
Like I want 'em to know thatthey just made a mistake there.
Yeah.
And.
this part of me, it's like alittle self-righteous part.
It's probably like a big part of it's myego that just, just enjoys being right.
True.
So good.
I wanna, I wanna taste that as much asI can through the years over with the
self-awareness and I've realized howthat has impacted people around me.
(35:42):
Mm-hmm.
How that for me to feel likethis, I have to push them down.
I have to put myself in this sort of oneup position and when I can zoom out and
see that, the other part of me that Ithink of as just more me is like, I don't
want anybody to feel like that around me.
Occasionally I can get caught out.
With my brother for example, if weare playing a board game, we can
become the most argumentative, outto get each other kind of person.
(36:05):
Actually, any games is theworst when this comes out in me.
And I can remember soon after myneutering, one of my friends saying
to me like how much I changedand this, that and the other.
And she said something about me.
always needing to be right.
Hmm.
And I felt like that it wasdefensive, but it was shame.
I mean, it was absolutely.
(36:26):
And you go to that placeof not feeling enough.
This straightaway takes meto the place of I'm too much.
I'm too much.
but now, and we've hadconversations since then about it.
I can hear that.
I can hear how I was and there'smuch less shame about it.
Now I can look at that.
Maybe there's distance as well.
Well distance.
Yeah.
I can look at that youngerpart of me and go, Hmm.
That's how she was.
(36:46):
And I feel further away from that.
But if I were to do it now and someonewere to point that out to me that I got
caught up in trying to prove a pointor be right, my initial reaction is
gonna be, I won't use the word flash.
It would feel like a flash.
Yeah.
A shame kind of going off in me.
I think it passes quite quickly.
I think it passes quicker now becauseI can, I can kind of forgive that part
(37:10):
because it's only once I recognize it'sthere that I can make a different choice.
So if I get caught up and I don'trealize I can't, I can't make a
different choice until I recognize it.
You can't make a differentchoice until you recognize it.
And I think this is the answer,kind of wrapping to the question of
like, why bother feeling feelings?
Because when what you're describing,I, I think there might be a human
(37:31):
instinct to avoid that and to maybelike, be like, she doesn't know what
she's talking about or I am Right.
You know, like the avoidance of thatcan be very, very, like we can build
a. Castle, you know, to keep away.
Why, why go towards what's messy?
And to me the answer isbecause in the long run it gets
messier if you don't, right?
(37:51):
Like, if you are buildingcastles all the time, to bolster
yourself against that feeling.
, You will end up inside of a fortressin the middle with like, no, no
availability of connection around you.
And, and, and that can benecessary sometimes to have , some
buildings up to protect from theincessant overwhelm of emotions.
And I think that we haven'ttouched on the value of not over.
(38:15):
Going into emotion, but in theopposite side, where we're constantly
defending against unsafe emotions, weend up creating a much bigger mess.
Mm-hmm.
That I think becomes eatingdisorders, becomes addictions,
becomes, , relationship issues, becomesattachment insecurities and things.
Um.
And probably most of us havelanded in adulthood there already.
(38:37):
'cause I don't know that wewere taught to do this younger.
And so a lot of us are doing that now.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but you know, I think as we're doingit and the messier it's getting, and the
more we're like, oh, this feels terrible.
I was better off blaming everybody else orlike staying in my private little castle.
Um, you know,, it's going to feelworse before it feels better and
before the balance can be erectedbetween intellect advocacy.
(38:59):
Standing ground and feeling something thatasks us to look at ourselves differently.
Yes.
And if there's no, you would probablyuse the word advocacy, and I would
use the word self-compassion.
Not that you would disagree withmy word, but just those words
might feel different to us.
But for me, I cannot be introspective andlook at the parts I don't like unless I
have a compassionate voice in my head.
(39:21):
Because without that compassion to lookat the parts I don't like and examine them
is, is only pain and only exacerbates asense of shame that they're even there.
Mm-hmm.
But that is probablygonna be another episode.
Yeah.
That's so interesting.
'cause you're so
right.
'cause when I think about compassionin my head I'm like, that doesn't work.
But advocacy does.
I need to have my advocate there.
Yes.
So it's the same thing.
(39:42):
Yeah.
It's your first compassion . And soprobably an episode on language as well in
terms of how we understand ourselves andwords, because that comes up for us a lot.
We're often saying the samething with different words.
Yeah.
But I'm like, the way you aresaying it isn't working for me.
Yeah.
Yeah, same
contest.
Different leaders.
Okay.
Okay.
Huh?
Did it, did it?
We did it.
Let us know what your feelingsabout this podcast were.
(40:03):
Yes.
We have an e email somewhere.
Yes.
And whether you are finding it justreally inconvenient that we have
two podcasts if you've come over.
Another one.
Sorry about that guys.
We've just got other stuffwe wanna talk about as well.
Join us next week for a conversationon introverts and extroverts.
All right.
We have a, okay.
Okay.
I was wondering if we were gonna have a, acatchphrase for, you know, something like.
(40:25):
Keep feeling.
Right.
Right.
Let's keep working on that.
Yes.
Um,
but you can say it for today.
Might need some work shopping.
But anyway, thanks forjoining us, everyone.
We'll see you say next week, butthe second episode's already up.
Yay for you.
Bye bye.
Well fancy seeing you here.
Wow.
Here we are.
We recorded episode two already,just to avoid the awkwardness
of this, but I'm hearing it.
Yes.
So for anybody joining us who perhapsdoesn't know who we are, Stef and
I, we have another podcast together.
This is our second podcast
our other podcast is about food and bodyimage, and it's called Life After Diets.
(00:46):
But we decided to do a second one.
We like each
other that much.
We've been podcasting together for fouryears We talk about recovery from food
and body image stuff, but we like togo deep and there are so many topics
and branches that we wanna go off down.
So we are creating this newspace in order to do that.
But perhaps to give you a senseof whether this podcast is gonna
(01:07):
be for you, I would say thispodcast is inspired by two quotes.
One of them's mine and one of them,Steph, not, we didn't come up with them.
We chose these quotes, which willgive you an idea of the vibe Yeah.
Of this podcast.
Do you wanna share your quote, Steph?
Sure.
It's by Carl Young, and it's until wemake the unconscious conscious, it will
direct our lives and we'll call it fate.
(01:29):
So this podcast is about increasingself-awareness, understanding
why we behave the way we do, whywe seem to act in self-defeating
cycles at times, and then tryingto figure out our way through that.
My quote is the Necar tole quote,which is around being at least as
interested in your own reaction tosomething as you are towards the
(01:49):
thing that caused your reaction.
It's a self-awareness podcast, right?
, But I think part of the difference.
Between our other podcast and thisone is that we, we also contemplated
naming this, , a, a coach and atherapist walk into a podcast.
Um, I think, not that we're notvulnerable because we certainly are , on
our other podcast platform, but theactual navigation of this, not from
(02:13):
the point of view of here's what to do.
We've got it all figured out,but we're figuring it out too.
And when we talk about it in this space,we learn , as we're talking about it,
as we're learning from each other, aswe're clarifying it even to ourselves.
, So.
For me, I feel like , this podcastenergetically to me feels a little bit
more like a space to be rather thanto, uh, you know, have these answers
(02:37):
and, , , I feel a little more humanrather than coach in this, in this arena.
At least right now.
At least so far in the 40seconds we've been recording.
Another title that we both likedwas Why We Are The Way We Are.
Yeah.
However, there are a lotof podcasts out there.
I think there's at least sixother podcasts with that title.
Oh, that's
(02:57):
right.
Yeah.
. But that's what we're here for.
And so today we are talking aboutthe concept of feelings in general,
, and why we're talking about 'em.
What, why bother?
Because they're reallyannoying and mm-hmm.
Uncomfortable.
. , I think I have blamed my feelings for my inconsistencies at times.
(03:19):
So if I feel like doingsomething, I'll do it.
I. Sometimes I have resistance andI dunno why I have resistance, and
then sometimes I'm judging myselffor how I'm feeling about something.
I guess what I'm trying tosay in my confused way is
that feelings are confusing
and trying to actually unpick themrather than just trying to be rational.
(03:40):
So I think if you feel like your feelingsare wrong or your feelings are getting in
the way, what I would do is I would try toavoid suppress and repress those feelings,
and then they start, like the Carl Youngquote, they start acting on my behaviors
and my moods outside of my awareness.
Mm-hmm.
So actually by bringing feelingsinto awareness, they might seem
(04:01):
inconvenient because how we'refeeling about something might be
part of what's getting in the way.
Take social anxiety, for example.
If you're out there in a social situationand you want to connect, but this
feeling of anxiety is stopping you fromdoing that, that's pretty inconvenient.
And then the self-judgment comes in,which exacerbates the social anxiety.
I also think the value of like ourdifferent experiences here because.
(04:25):
I definitely, I don't think, is thereanyone among us who doesn't find certain
feelings to be more palatable than othersand to, and then to, you know, suppress
the ones that don't feel comfortable.
I, maybe some of us do that moreacross the board or lean into
logic and intellectualization more.
But I also would say, like, Ican look back at my experience
(04:47):
of relating to my emotions andcertainly find the ones where.
I have felt like , they're notwelcome here, but I've also not
necessarily felt like I neededto just not have them at all.
I have just leaned on certainones that are more comfortable and
then over identified with them.
And so , the vigilance in me , is like,oh, no, I feel I have feelings and I know
what they are and I can be with them.
(05:08):
But it's like, oh, yes, yes,Stephanie, but specific ones and
the ones that you're familiar with,and the ones that you've deemed to
be , okay, you know, and that it.
Or that we even need tobe always in our feelings.
I think there's like a,there's a spectrum of this.
There's a spectrum of finding rationalthought and balancing that with
feelings so that we're not always overidentified with, being an emotion and
(05:29):
acting from an emotion all the time.
So, which feelings are morepalatable to you and which
feelings are the most inconvenient?
Oh God.
Well, okay.
I feel like I'm a little bit in theminority on this one potentially, but
anger is one I feel more comfortable with.
I'm actually familiar with angerand it is an easier go-to for me
than on uncertainty, fear, sadness.
(05:52):
I find those to be more vulnerable.
I will click that can down the.
Curb, is that what we say?
Kick down the road, kick thecan down the road, um, on those.
And I put anger in itsplace because it's fiery.
, I can do something with it.
I can act.
, , it takes up more space in my bodythat I wanna, like, translate out
and I can keep moving with it.
And I feel like when it gets quieterand when the stillness is more potent,
(06:17):
that's where sadness, that's where the,the, the lower energy emotions live.
And I don't feel as comfortable.
In a lower energy state.
'cause I feel like I'mgonna, I'm gonna drown.
So, um, that's an explorationfor me even right now.
It won't surprise you to know thatanger is probably the one I find
the most challenging and sadness isprobably the easier one for me to go to.
(06:38):
Sadness.
There's something in sadness for methat feels like a surrender and almost
like a letting go, you know, for yours.
Yours is the anger'sfiery and it feels active.
The sadness, I think comes fromperhaps feeling a bit defeated by
certain things in certain situations.
So bigger global events, I'm much morelikely to go to defeat and sadness.
(07:00):
I. Surrender to it happening, whichmy experience of that is that it
actually brings me more peace.
But then the part of me that judgesis, oh, so you're just letting everyone
else go out there and be the activist.
I don't know if there's an activist in me,but I feel a bit of judgment that perhaps
there should be, and by, by going downthis route or route, am I being passive?
(07:23):
Am I avoiding something?
I'm feeling something.
And it does feel like asurrender and a letting go.
Certainly when I'm aware of itand I consciously allow it, it
brings enormous relief to go downthe sad path than to feel angry.
So then, have you beenexperimenting with anger at all?
Like, 'cause we've been talking about thisin the, in the, in the old podcast, and so
(07:46):
it's not something new to your awarenessthat like, this is, this exists, have you?
Are you sitting in a place of like,yeah, I'm just aware of it, or
are you playing with anger at all?
I feel like I've done some of the work onanger is letting go of my judgment of it.
'cause for me, anger was not nice for me.
If I feel angry with somebody.
Then I feel like I'm just notbeing, I'm not being a nice person.
(08:07):
it feels like it's not the kindof person that I want to be.
And by allowing the anger and naming itand saying, I feel so angry right now with
this situation, with this person, and, andI'm probably gonna use the word validate
quite a lot in this, in this podcast,but when I validate that emotion, and I
don't make myself wrong for having it.
(08:29):
It actually tends to pass.
And again, I, because I don't, Idon't wanna stay stuck in anger.
It feels like it's burning my inside.
You know?
You say you feel like you'redrowning with sadness.
Yeah.
I feel like I'm burning with anger andI think I would rather drown than burn.
So, but maybe it calls the questionlike, is the, is this really just about
(08:50):
fear of being in an uncomfortable space?
Not even the story attached to it,like drowning or burning are both under
the umbrella of a story of discomfort.
You know, it's like one would ratherthis and one would rather that, but
both of these things are uncomfortable.
Why bother?
Why do we need to shiftit in the first place?
Or why do we need to?
Like why, what's the problem with mestaying angry and you staying sad?
(09:11):
What's the value of exploringa different type of emotion?
Anyway,
I think that's so personal because Idon't think that there's any kind of.
Moral obligation to feel all the emotionsor that there's a should in there.
And I know you're not saying should,but for me it's just more about from
my own personal understanding andrelentless self-examination that I want
(09:35):
to understand these parts of me andI want to understand how the judgment
of anger or the blocking of anger isthat causing me problems elsewhere.
Because what happens then is ifI don't allow the anger, is that.
I'll try to suppress that angerand that for me is then more likely
to just manifest in a low mood,which isn't the same as sadness.
(09:59):
It's a low mood.
I think I really somatize my emotions,like I really hold them in my body
and I think by pushing down anger.
I have to deaden my energyin order to do that.
And actually by even just validating,acknowledging and not judging
anger, something moves through me.
It feels more like a release of angerwhen I'm allowed to be angry, I can feel
(10:20):
it, but then it does pass quite quickly.
So there's always a question inmy mind going, well, why does
it pass as quickly as it does?
I don't know.
I, that's a blind spotto me at the moment.
Hmm.
Well.
It's also to me, I feel like when we havea reliance on, I'll just speak for myself.
So anger's comfortable to me.
(10:40):
Uh, it's comfortable to me because yes,it's familiar and it was part of my
growing up, but also it's protective,like anger protects me from the things
that I am afraid, that if I don't feelangry about them, that they will override
me or overcome me or I'll be takenadvantage of or something like that.
So in some ways, anger has been.
This like ally right?
(11:02):
That, and I don't have the associationsof it as being necessarily mean
or, , aggressive in a, in, in away that feels threatening to me.
But if I stay in that comfort zone,which is so weird 'cause I know that
most people will be like, what you'retalking about, anger as a comfort zone.
But I mean, some peoplewill, will feel this.
(11:23):
Then I'm setting my life up to.
Then I need it to be this way.
Right?
And then that's defensive.
And then I'm going to do, I'm gonnalook at my life and I'm gonna look at
myself, and I'm gonna look at otherpeople that I'm in relationships with
and all of the, all of the things thatcome into conflict with my existence.
And I'm gonna need to fit it aroundmy anger instead of like, it's gonna
(11:46):
be trying to like put a, put a squarepeg in a round hole at, at some point
I'm not gonna be able to learn becausethere's gonna be too much of a need
to create the story around the anger.
So if I don't move out of my comfortzone, , I don't evolve and I, this is a
value for me is like evolving, moving,taking down the defenses when I'm ready.
(12:09):
And I think that's also a piecebecause I think that there's, I.
Also a need to keep those defensesstrong, to bolster something that is
vulnerable and unsure in the beginning.
But once the structure is set, that'sthe place where I wanna be like, okay,
how do I need to reconfigure things sothat I can let more in and I can see more
(12:30):
people in the story or see more otherperspectives in this story without having
to so vehemently defend mine because.
It is only when I have, ugh, it's painful,but like when I have, when I have softened
my anger that I'm actually able to seeother sides and other things that I wasn't
seeing in my anger that feel to, to behonest with me and working in therapy on
(12:53):
this, like it feels like, um, potentially
dangerous, like to see itfrom the other side in case my
side isn't, isn't bolstered.
So there's something about growth itselfthat comes from the deconstruction of
the safe emotion and, and a readinessfor this as well, that I'm feeling
a lot all the time and, and feelinglike the ask right now for me is to
(13:16):
be exploring this other way of meetingmyself and my life and other people.
. So I have a question.
Yeah.
Would you prefer somebody was angry withyou or sad let's say you upset somebody,
would you prefer their response to beanger or to feel sad about what you did?
Sad.
Interesting.
A hundred percent.
I'm afraid of someone being angryat me, which is why I have anger.
(13:36):
Because if I get there first, thenI have less, then I, then I feel
like I'm on the stronger foot andI feel, and I live defensively.
I live on the defense, so.
If you are sad with me, I'mlike, oh, I can work with that.
I can then soften too.
But if someone's angry at me, I,I feel like I lose, and again,
this is childhood, you know?
Mm-hmm.
But yeah, it's way more comfortableto have someone be sad than angry.
(14:01):
Mm-hmm.
How about you?
I dunno, I've kind of gone backand forth in my mind with it.
When I first thought of the question,my initial response was sadness.
But then I thought, oh no, liketo make somebody, make somebody.
You know what I mean?
I did something that causedsomebody else to feel sad.
There's something in the angerthat's self-protective and
I would want that for them.
Hmm.
'cause if there's sad, I've somehowlike trampled them underfoot
(14:24):
to make somebody feel sad.
Whereas if they're angry with me.
Hmm.
It's so interesting.
I think if they're angry with me,I can feel a bit defensive about
the fact they're angry with me.
Even if, even if the thing thatI did so interesting, um, yeah.
Was was, you know, worthy ofa, an angry response as such.
Yeah.
And that surprised me as I thought.
'cause my first thought was sadness,but then when I sat with how that
(14:46):
felt for someone to be sad over angry,and I wouldn't want explosive anger.
If someone was able to say to me,calmly, actually, I felt really angry
about that when you did that, butthey're safe in themselves, in their
anger, then I would prefer anger.
If their anger isn't safe withinthem, then that's kind of like, well,
what's gonna happen with their anger?
(15:06):
Yeah.
Um, there might be like a natural.
Energy balancing between two people.
That if you are leaning, if you're morecomfortable with sadness, that that's
why, the other side of the scale wouldbalance the equilibrium and even allow
you to become more indignant in someway and to, and to change your energy.
Mm-hmm.
For me, when I think about someone elsebeing sad, I'm like, oh, I can, we can fix
that, even though that's not the point.
(15:28):
But like if someone's sad, I'm like.
In my, in my, I wouldnever wanna hurt anybody.
I would never, I would never do that.
That would never be my intention.
So to me there's like, oh, there mustbe some misconception then, because I
would never want somebody to be sad.
Whereas anger, I can'tsee even that clearly.
It's like if anger meets anger.
I don't know.
(15:49):
I can't even think beyond this sentence.
Like, I, I just, it, Idon't have a foothold in, in
understanding what's happening.
haven't you had the experience of anger,meeting anger when you've touched on your
dad, for example, so he's been angry andthen you felt angry about him being angry.
So what's, what's that for you?
When anger versus angerwill just regulate me.
So anytime that I'm in confrontation withanger, I can't, I have not yet at the
(16:14):
point where I can, I shouldn't say that.
If it's potent anger, I can't regulate.
So I will go into my old self, Iwill go into my primal reactions.
I will become a version ofmyself that I'm not proud of.
. Because there is no, I can'tthink when my dad gets mad at
(16:34):
me or when anyone else does.
And it rises to the level of likereal, , like volume or intensity.
Not that this happens a lot, you know,but it does happen in my family system.
. Or like when I get, you know, when ithappens, when I get, , when a, when a
police officer I've talked to you aboutthis will like , one time I missed the,
(16:54):
I missed the, where I was supposed to goduring a reroute of a construction route.
And I started to go the wrong way.
And the guy you got really mad at me andhe was like, boy, he was going like this.
And he was, he was aggressive, you know,he wasn't obviously gonna come get me.
I didn't feel unsafe,but he was mad at me.
It was like he was mad at meand I got so enraged back and
I, I ca I just can't stay cool.
I go into this like.
(17:16):
Oh, like I, I just wanna scream and Iget my, the fuck comes in my chest and
I can't think about it until for hours.
Like, I need to go home, I needto calm down physically, and then
I need to reassess what happened.
But I can't do it there.
And then, and that leaves me veryvulnerable because I can't, I can't act
on my own behalf in that moment becauseI'm gonna be only acting from a raw, which
(17:38):
is essentially the reason why I used to.
Binge in anger or restrict in angerbecause it was just this like,
ah, like it was just so primal.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so the, the work for me isregulating anger more in real time, which
will require a softening, I think it willrequire me to become the other side of
that energy balance, which is so hardfor me to do when it feels so vulnerable.
(17:59):
Mm-hmm.
So what would be the most convenient?
Emotion to feel then when thepolice officer is yelling at you
for going the wrong way and is mad.
I used to be a policeofficer for nine years.
I know.
And I see my colleagues get madat the most ridiculous things and
yell at members of the public.
I'm like, come on guys.
Did you ever out?
Yes.
(18:21):
Oh gosh.
I remember one time this person, just keptdriving right up my backside, like bumper
to bumper behind, and I kept puttingmy, my brakes on slowly to slow it down.
And, oh God, I shouldn'tsay this on a podcast.
Why?
Oh.
'cause it's like one, I shouldn'tdo this as a police officer.
Did you go?
But I also, I really want to saythat I probably would've been about
(18:42):
22 years old, just, and I'm 42years old now and this is not okay.
You're outside the, um,statute of limitations.
Yeah.
I was so annoyed that they were notgetting the hint to give me more
space that I slammed my brakes on.
So they had to slam their brakes on.
Did they hear you?
No.
So then they were like, what the heck?
And I got outta thecar and I told 'em off.
(19:02):
And what did they do?
Oh, not much.
They, you know, they didn't,
I can't imagine doing that to a policeofficer knowing they're a police officer.
Like, why would you bait a police officer?
Maybe that was part of my indignation.
I'll tell you, this isan interesting thing.
Really.
I would say in my teens andmy early twenties, I was way
more fiery than I am now.
Huh.
I, I've, I, I dunno we've spoken aboutthis specifically before, but when I
(19:26):
was 26 and I had a pituitary tumor andmy pituitary hormones, just, everything
changed, like hormonally in my body.
Everything changed.
I've sometimes joked about it.
It was kind of like being nted, you know,like when you have a cat that's just a
bit more hyperactive and then he has hisballs chopped and he's just a lot calmer.
That's genuinely how it felt likemy felt energy in my body changed.
(19:49):
With my hormonal makeup changing.
Mm. And then people started calling me.
Nice.
I'd never been callednice before I got tumor.
Really?
I don't think I was very nice.
I mean, that's gonna bring inthis question of like the impact
of hormones on our emotions.
Right.
Which is
a different episode.
We cannot, oh my goodness.
Yes.
But there is one We can't
(20:10):
open that, that can of worms in thisfirst episode, but we can get there.
We can get there.
At the moment, we've focusedon anger and sadness.
I do wanna mention shame.
I think shame needs an honorablemention in this episode.
Okay.
Because I think it is.
One of the most inconvenient emotions,and I'm not talking about when you
might appropriately feel bad when youdrop the ball or you let somebody down.
(20:34):
I'm talking about that chronic deep shame,that feeling that just tells you that you
are not the person you're supposed to be.
You are not showing up theway you're supposed to be.
You fail at everything you do.
For example, when I was struggling withfood 'cause go round and round in this
cycle, trying to change everything, changeeverything, and then not able to do it.
(20:56):
And so the mind just settles on, oh,the reason why I can't fix this problem,
which seems to make rational sense.
Just eat moderation.
Right?
How difficult can that be?
The conclusion my brain, I think alot of brains come to is, oh, there
must be something wrong with me.
So now fixing that problem with foodis not just about getting rid of the
discomfort and the difficulties ofhaving the problem in the first place,
(21:20):
but you need to fix this problem so youcan finally feel okay about yourself.
I think this is complicated and I'mlearning more about how complicated it
is because I. F would've told you thatthrough recovery, I really addressed shame
and I didn't feel like I struggled withit anymore because what you're saying
(21:41):
is I deconstructed the logic of that.
So when I realized that, you know,my relationship to food was much more
physiological and psychological andthe merit of that and the influence
of that, , that was beyond consciouscontrol was right in in the unconscious
layers and even in the primal.
Autonomic layers.
This gave me a really embodiedunderstanding that this isn't my fault.
(22:05):
And I was able to intellectually letgo of a lot of what I had been using
as character assassinations for myselfand being like, this is physiology, at
least on this food and body image level.
And from there I was able to actuallydo that in a lot of other places.
. But I think that what I did and whatI'm beginning to think I did, which
isn't unhelpful, it's super helpful andI stand by it and will never, uh, I, I
(22:29):
don't wanna lose touch with it, is thatI intellectually deconstructed this idea.
But I have been running uplately against, not with food.
I think maybe that one's a little bit of adifferent thing, but I've been running up
against situations where I'm being judged.
And my intellect can absolutely dismantleit and be like, everybody's different.
(22:54):
Everybody will judge everybody ofcourse you have parts of yourself that
others won't like, and there's partsof you that aren't evolved or aren't,
you know, or have a darker side.
And some of, and some of thosevery same qualities are attributes
if you look at it the other way.
And I can do all of that cognitively.
And I do, and it helps.
It helps a lot.
'cause then I'm not struggling in likethe cognitive shame as well, but my body.
(23:16):
Won't let it go.
And this is a feeling, I, I thinkthis is shame, but it doesn't, it
doesn't come across as, what I would'vethought is shame because it, it's
fronted by this intellectual rejection.
It's like, no, you're,there's like, it's not you.
Like I, and I'm very like fiercelythere, here, but in my body I'm
like, you are just, I can't, it'snot words, it's just this feeling of.
(23:43):
Less than this or wrongness thatno amount of intellect can shake.
And I think I've confused, like I,and what I thought wasn't shame.
I thought I wasn't carrying shame.
I think what I mean is I'vedeconstructed cognitive shame.
I, I don't know how possible it is.
And I'm beginning, this is my, I'llask you what you think, but, uh,
this is where I stand right now.
(24:03):
I don't know if a humanbeing can ever fully.
Not have , some kind of primalexistential in our cells.
Maybe it's epigenetic shame, it'smaybe what we do with it that can
have a lot of influence, but do youthink it's possible to fully get
at shame from the embodied level?
(24:26):
I do, I do think it's possible.
I'm not saying I'vedone it, but, oh, well.
That's a question, part
of the question.
Have you?
Yeah.
Okay.
No, because I, I don't know.
as I, as I go through life, I lookat who, even who I, who I am now, or
my sense of myself now, just comparedto five years ago, compared to 10
years ago compared to 15 years ago.
(24:48):
You know, I might be 20 years from that.
I don't know.
But I, I think for me, it's notabout going, it should be possible.
It's just about going, I don't know.
And let's see how far, how much thatshame can be eased and released.
Yeah.
I, I wanna see how far it cango, and I'm open to the idea.
That it could be completely removed.
(25:10):
I mean, that's a higher levelof consciousness, right?
And I'm not suggestingthat it's something.
And also to turn it into somethingto achieve kind of makes almost
like a hierarchy and Oh, lookat me like I managed to like
rid my body of all this shame.
And then everyone else who hasn'tis like, well that's another thing
that I feel shame about 'cause I'msupposed to be able to get rid of this.
I don't think it's that.
I think, I think the minute we closeoff, I'm gonna say I, the minute I
(25:34):
close off the possibility of something.
That's not helpful, but the minute Iturn it into a should, it's not helpful.
The minute I turn it into like,an ideal to obtain not helpful.
See if I, if I don't give myselfthe opportunity to think, maybe
it's not possible to eradicate shamefrom the human body, I actually
(25:56):
find, do myself a disservicebecause there's something about.
Oh, sorry.
There was, whoa, there was a shadowon my mouth that looked like blackness
coming from my teeth, and I didn't know.
It's like, shame, it's incarnate.
Um, it's coming outta your body.
That's what it looked like.
I was like, well, I'mtalking about this too long.
(26:17):
Um.
I think that I felt a lot ofrelief actually in coming to this
realization that I don't think Iknow anybody, even the gurus, right?
Like even the Mel Robbins, who I don'teven think of as a guru, but like, I know,
um, but the, the people who g Maite, likethe people who have, have been working
on shame even for a really long time.
I don't think anybody is free of it.
(26:38):
I, I re and of course that's my opinion,but I don't, and then it's kind of like.
Is it our human plate to have shame?
And I do believe that there is somekind of higher level of consciousness
that probably when one could reach, Ijust don't think in our lifetime or at
the current level of humanity that itnecessarily is possible and that therefore
I would rather think to myself, in mylifetime, in this one, this lifetime,
(27:03):
I likely won't have access to whatI need to, the resources I need in,
in our culture to be free of shame.
That might not be the askof this level of humanity.
Therefore, I need to operateunder the assumption that
it's okay for me to have it.
And I understand that what you're sayingis that, but for me, I conceptualize
it like, yes, it's allowed to behere and maybe even is appropriate.
(27:25):
Like I don't even know if there'smuch I could do about it, which
frees me from the should of likethis idea that I could not have it.
So question, do you thinkthen it's possible to release
more shame from the body?
At the moment it's a black andwhite, the shame's in the body, or
it's not with the level of shamethat can be activated in your body?
Yeah.
(27:45):
Let's say it's, at themoment it's a hundred.
Do you think that could be
reduced by half in your lifetime?
Yes.
Yes.
And I think I've done that and I thinklike even just this week I've been
experiencing shame and I have beenmore, I've treated it differently.
I absolutely have felt it to my core.
And then I'm like meeting it in new ways,which half in part has to do with what
(28:07):
we talked about in the beginning of thisepisode of softening anger, , and so I
don't know that I've dealt with shamequite, so I don't know, , intentionally.
Until recently, , from the embodiedpoint of view, from the somatic point
of view, and I do think it's changed myexperience of it, even though it hurts,
but I think that I'm doing somethingdifferent with it that's decreasing
(28:30):
Its intensity, or at least it'sduration, which must be a way of, yeah.
A hundred to 50 or something like that.
Mm-hmm.
And I agree.
I think it may not bepossible in our lifetime.
I do think that humans are evolving.
I think consciousness evolves.
Yeah.
And maybe it's just about doing our part.
Yeah.
So much of my work and your MO workas well is about it helping people
(28:53):
to reduce their shame levels andthen hopefully like they go through
their lives with lower shame levelsand they then pass that on to.
They're kids or other peoplethat they come into contact with.
Because I, I also think that,certainly for me anyway, if my shame
is activated, then it's likely tobe projected onto other people.
Yeah.
Like I feel annoyed with other people.
(29:14):
So someone says something.
Yes.
And, and it hits me andI have a strong reaction.
And then gonna to try and protectmyself from the shame, even though
the shame has been triggered, push itoutwards into blame, you know, or into,
I think something that I've, I've, I'm.
This is so hard to talk about sometimes.
'cause I sometimes I gotta saysomething like, but is that true?
(29:34):
Yeah.
Is that true?
Well, a lot of things are true.
Maybe it's one true thing.
Or an angle of truth.
Yes.
And the, the, it can be both trueand not true at the same time.
Righting And the opposite.
The opposite can be true.
Yeah, exactly.
One of the ways that I've heard aboutshame spoken about is it is the type
(29:55):
of anger actually, which is interesting'cause we've touched on anger already.
Yes.
And that when it's turnedinwards, it's shame.
And then when it's turnedoutwards, it's blame.
Yes.
Right.
So something happens and there isa reaction often in the body like
you, you feel, for me anyway, Imight feel something before I'm
aware of the thought and maybeyou're aware of the thought first.
I'm not sure.
'cause I know your mind works.
(30:16):
Very quickly, so I will feelsomething, and then the reaction.
It's likely to be, let's say somebodyleaves a mean comment on YouTube.
My initial response that I am awareof is defensiveness, and if I unpick
that, I think there's probably, well,there's definitely blame in there.
Sometimes shame.
Not necessarily.
It needs to be a vulnerable point.
(30:37):
Right.
'cause there've been many times I'vebeen annoyed by a comment, but I've
also been felt very separate from it.
It hasn't felt that personal.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Felt more like an irritation.
And other times when people havesaid something that has felt more
personal, I, I go to anger as well.
I never go to, oh, you are right.
I'm terrible.
It's never that black and white for me.
(30:58):
Mean, neither black, and she says,
in a
black and
white way.
Never black and white.
Never the keyword.
Never.
Never.
Well, I mean, it's, it's aninteresting thing to think about.
I, I don't know.
I, the shame I'm talkingabout doesn't feel like anger.
Hmm.
It, it isn't, I'm not angry at myself.
I'm sad at myself like I'm.
(31:18):
It.
It's because it harbors some sliverof truth, and it's a truth that's
been skewed and magnified in away that maybe that would make
me angry is the misunderstanding.
But like whenever somebody sayssomething to me that points out a truth,
?That I even already know about myself, but when somebody says
it to me and condemns me for it,
(31:39):
I'm not mad at myself.
I can feel that.
I'm not, I, I just feel bad.
I just feel like I'm not good.
I, no, it's not even, I'm not good enough.
I feel like so overused.
It's just, I just feel small.
I feel, and I feel dumb, and Ifeel rejected and I feel alone.
And I don't think it's my fault 'causeI have the consciousness about it.
(32:02):
So like, there's something about,it's like I'm accountable to it.
I'm not, not accountable to it.
But then what?
Like, to me it's like the worst placebecause if I could be mad, I would
be because I, and I would do that.
But then after that is this otherfeeling that I'm avoiding, which
is more of this sadness thatsomebody thinks about me like that.
And actually I might think thatthe places where I could be taken
(32:25):
there, it needs to be something thatI haven't fully accepted in myself.
So if I fully accept a part of me.
The, you know, isn't the ideal.
For whatever reason, someone else'scomments are not gonna hit that part.
Not to be, there's no emotionalreaction, but I'm not gonna feel
that sense of like a sinking feeling.
(32:47):
And I think you're right.
I don't, I'm now completely questioningeverything I've said so far about
shame, but it's that sinking feeling.
But there are things that I have.
in my body, made peace withabout myself and other things
that are just more tender areas.
It needs to be a tender area.
So I think the better and better ourrelationship becomes with ourselves and
(33:10):
the more and more we allow for all parts.
But again, is this just like aintellectualization, like you're
saying, when it's in the body, canwe Right, can we reach it there?
I'm not,
I'm not even sure.
I, I, I'm beginning to think that whateverfeeling it is, shame or, or anything else.
There are more, there is morethan one story to whatever it is.
There's 50 stories about.
(33:32):
Whatever that emotion representsor the story it's telling and none
of them are true and all of themare true and or maybe it's more, I
could just say all of them are true.
And because of that there is no oneway, like you can be very self aligned
and very okay with yourself or, or haveawareness of yourself or these things,
but because there's another truth to it,there's another way of thinking about
(33:52):
it that somebody else has picked up on.
, that's a reality.
It's a sliver of truth that you're facing.
And even if your intellect is like,yes, but that's not the truth I wanna
pay attention to, or that I, or Ithink is necessary to pay attention
to, there's, it still exists.
And just knowing it exists, Ithink brings up a very human
(34:13):
a feeling of like, that thing exists.
Mm-hmm.
And that's why I think it's,it's part of being a human.
I, I think it's about ourunderstanding of truth.
yeah.
Yeah, and I don't think it'sas black and white either.
As I, I first said about is whetheryou've fully accepted it or you haven't.
I think there's a whole,whole scale of that.
I used to be really defensive, sothere's a part of me that I don't like,
(34:35):
which is, and I know I've spoken to youabout this before and you've been like,
I don't see that, and it's because Iwork hard on it, but there's a part of
me that just, that wants to be right.
In a way that certainly inthe past, so pre my hormonal
neutering, I was insufferable.
If I heard somebody say something thatI'm like, Hmm, that doesn't sound true.
(34:56):
I would have to argue the toss.
To be like, no, that'snot, that's not true.
That that was the score on thatgame on that day or whatever.
It was like minor rubbish.
That just doesn't matter.
And now I let so much stuff gowhen people say something or they
say it in my mind incorrectly.
Yeah.
Ooh.
I just, I don't say anything, but there'sa little part of me that wants to go.
(35:19):
I want 'em to know they're wrong.
Yeah.
Like I want 'em to know thatthey just made a mistake there.
Yeah.
And.
this part of me, it's like alittle self-righteous part.
It's probably like a big part of it's myego that just, just enjoys being right.
True.
So good.
I wanna, I wanna taste that as much asI can through the years over with the
self-awareness and I've realized howthat has impacted people around me.
(35:42):
Mm-hmm.
How that for me to feel likethis, I have to push them down.
I have to put myself in this sort of oneup position and when I can zoom out and
see that, the other part of me that Ithink of as just more me is like, I don't
want anybody to feel like that around me.
Occasionally I can get caught out.
With my brother for example, if weare playing a board game, we can
become the most argumentative, outto get each other kind of person.
(36:05):
Actually, any games is theworst when this comes out in me.
And I can remember soon after myneutering, one of my friends saying
to me like how much I changedand this, that and the other.
And she said something about me.
always needing to be right.
Hmm.
And I felt like that it wasdefensive, but it was shame.
I mean, it was absolutely.
(36:26):
And you go to that placeof not feeling enough.
This straightaway takes meto the place of I'm too much.
I'm too much.
but now, and we've hadconversations since then about it.
I can hear that.
I can hear how I was and there'smuch less shame about it.
Now I can look at that.
Maybe there's distance as well.
Well distance.
Yeah.
I can look at that youngerpart of me and go, Hmm.
That's how she was.
(36:46):
And I feel further away from that.
But if I were to do it now and someonewere to point that out to me that I got
caught up in trying to prove a pointor be right, my initial reaction is
gonna be, I won't use the word flash.
It would feel like a flash.
Yeah.
A shame kind of going off in me.
I think it passes quite quickly.
I think it passes quicker now becauseI can, I can kind of forgive that part
(37:10):
because it's only once I recognize it'sthere that I can make a different choice.
So if I get caught up and I don'trealize I can't, I can't make a
different choice until I recognize it.
You can't make a differentchoice until you recognize it.
And I think this is the answer,kind of wrapping to the question of
like, why bother feeling feelings?
Because when what you're describing,I, I think there might be a human
(37:31):
instinct to avoid that and to maybelike, be like, she doesn't know what
she's talking about or I am Right.
You know, like the avoidance of thatcan be very, very, like we can build
a. Castle, you know, to keep away.
Why, why go towards what's messy?
And to me the answer isbecause in the long run it gets
messier if you don't, right?
(37:51):
Like, if you are buildingcastles all the time, to bolster
yourself against that feeling.
, You will end up inside of a fortressin the middle with like, no, no
availability of connection around you.
And, and, and that can benecessary sometimes to have , some
buildings up to protect from theincessant overwhelm of emotions.
And I think that we haven'ttouched on the value of not over.
(38:15):
Going into emotion, but in theopposite side, where we're constantly
defending against unsafe emotions, weend up creating a much bigger mess.
Mm-hmm.
That I think becomes eatingdisorders, becomes addictions,
becomes, , relationship issues, becomesattachment insecurities and things.
Um.
And probably most of us havelanded in adulthood there already.
(38:37):
'cause I don't know that wewere taught to do this younger.
And so a lot of us are doing that now.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but you know, I think as we're doingit and the messier it's getting, and the
more we're like, oh, this feels terrible.
I was better off blaming everybody else orlike staying in my private little castle.
Um, you know,, it's going to feelworse before it feels better and
before the balance can be erectedbetween intellect advocacy.
(38:59):
Standing ground and feeling something thatasks us to look at ourselves differently.
Yes.
And if there's no, you would probablyuse the word advocacy, and I would
use the word self-compassion.
Not that you would disagree withmy word, but just those words
might feel different to us.
But for me, I cannot be introspective andlook at the parts I don't like unless I
have a compassionate voice in my head.
(39:21):
Because without that compassion to lookat the parts I don't like and examine them
is, is only pain and only exacerbates asense of shame that they're even there.
Mm-hmm.
But that is probablygonna be another episode.
Yeah.
That's so interesting.
'cause you're so
right.
'cause when I think about compassionin my head I'm like, that doesn't work.
But advocacy does.
I need to have my advocate there.
Yes.
So it's the same thing.
(39:42):
Yeah.
It's your first compassion . And soprobably an episode on language as well in
terms of how we understand ourselves andwords, because that comes up for us a lot.
We're often saying the samething with different words.
Yeah.
But I'm like, the way you aresaying it isn't working for me.
Yeah.
Yeah, same
contest.
Different leaders.
Okay.
Okay.
Huh?
Did it, did it?
We did it.
Let us know what your feelingsabout this podcast were.
(40:03):
Yes.
We have an e email somewhere.
Yes.
And whether you are finding it justreally inconvenient that we have
two podcasts if you've come over.
Another one.
Sorry about that guys.
We've just got other stuffwe wanna talk about as well.
Join us next week for a conversationon introverts and extroverts.
All right.
We have a, okay.
Okay.
I was wondering if we were gonna have a, acatchphrase for, you know, something like.
(40:25):
Keep feeling.
Right.
Right.
Let's keep working on that.
Yes.
Um,
but you can say it for today.
Might need some work shopping.
But anyway, thanks forjoining us, everyone.
We'll see you say next week, butthe second episode's already up.
Yay for you.
Bye bye.
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