September 3, 2025 • 45 mins
Cara Lai is a meditation teacher, artist, and writer helping people step out of the cycle of suffering and into the fullness of life.
This episode learn to give yourself permission and break free of what you think meditation is in order to find a way to feel comfortable using it in your own life and breaking away from fear of perfection and stereotypes.
Connect with Cara Lai:
https://www.instagram.com/caratruth/
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) What's up guys?
Welcome to a new episode of the fit
ones with a podcast.
I'm going to just simply say I am
joined by an amazing and hilarious woman named
Cara Lai.
She's a meditation coach and we have the
best conversation about meditation and giving yourself permission
to live your best authentic life and I
think that you're gonna really enjoy this one.
(00:21):
So I'm not gonna give any long-winded
introduction to this.
I'm just gonna go ahead and start off
where our actual conversation started off too.
So I hope that you guys enjoy.
Make sure that you subscribe to the podcast
and go check Cara Lai out when this
episode is all done because she's pretty cool.
I just love having laid-back conversations as
if we're having a cup of coffee.
(00:41):
So very similar to what we're just doing
just a little bit more focused on the
topic at hand and what I love about
you is this whole idea of meditation and
when I came to your website I love
that you described yourself as like I'm a
meditation teacher, but I'm fun and quirky and
I was like, okay cool so this isn't
going to be like a Buddha experience where,
(01:02):
you know, when most people think of meditation
we think of monks and going to Thailand
and just sitting around and humming and I
think that meditation is so important but we
don't have a very good grasp on what
it actually is.
Yeah, I'm not, I'm a regular person and
I don't change the way I talk when
I guide a meditation.
(01:22):
I don't get all airy and uh-huh
and uh, I don't know, ephemeral or something.
We will, we will, is what I...
Yeah, I like, I like actually one of
the things that I value most in my
practice is making it totally easily translatable into
normal life and I think that if you,
(01:43):
if I'm modulating the way I am when
I'm teaching meditation so differently from how I
am in my normal life then I'm not
doing a very good job of making that
those, my regular life flow into my practice,
so.
And it can be a very scary thing
for people can be intrigued in it but
if they go to some place and it
(02:03):
is all the quote-unquote woo-woo it's
very hard to step into the doors and
be like this is something that I want
to try.
Yeah, because it makes it seem like it's
for a particular type of person.
Right.
And it's not, it can be for anyone.
So what was your journey like?
What got you into meditation in the first
place because you have quite an extensive background
as far as being a wilderness guide, a
(02:24):
social worker, a psychotherapist, so where did meditation
come in?
Well, I had, I was in my early
20s and I had gotten out of, I
went to art school for college and I
was trying to be an illustrator.
I was, I had like a 95 job
as an animator and I was just kind
(02:46):
of like miserable doing that and it didn't
feel like it had any meaning behind it.
And I was kind of searching for more
purpose in life but not, I didn't, I
don't think I would have been able to
put that into words.
And so I just quit my office job
and started doing things that felt good, which
(03:09):
it was, for me at the time I
had a lot of energy and I did
a lot of physical stuff.
Like I loved hiking and being outside and
running.
And so I got a job at an
outdoor education center and started working with kids
because I loved that too and being outside
a lot.
And I met someone at that job who
(03:31):
loved meditating.
And I think just because he sensed my
vibe, he was like, you would like meditating
too.
And so he gave me this little book
called Meditation.
And I just started doing it and did
love it because it just seemed like a
good idea to just spend eight minutes a
(03:53):
day just existing.
Especially at a time in my life when
I was pretty driven physically, I would like
train for and run marathons.
So the idea of slowing down was probably
very hard.
It actually, well, not for me because I
(04:13):
did both.
It was like, well, I go for my
run in the morning and then I would
just be totally relaxed for eight minutes.
And sometimes the best part of exercising is
afterwards when you just get to enjoy the
endorphins that are flowing through your body.
So I think that made it easier for
me to just be able to sit still
because I had gotten that out of me.
(04:37):
And then I got to sit with whatever
it was that was driving me so hard
to be so active.
And over the course of many years, I
learned a lot about that part of me
from my meditation practice and had to really
question the reasons that I was trying to
(04:59):
be so active and the parts of myself
that I might've been running away from.
So like using your fitness to cover up
for something else?
Yeah, which basically was a lot of insecurity
of many different forms.
I started running in the first place because
(05:22):
of body image stuff.
It wasn't because I liked running like nobody
likes running.
I actually just wasn't with a client this
morning.
It was her first time ever.
She's like, I just want to look, I
want to like exercise.
And I was like, I'm going to tell
you right now from the start, you're not
going to like it.
(05:43):
You're like, especially at the beginning, but you'll
eventually like the way you feel at the
end and that will keep you coming back.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, there were times when I really
did get to a place of enjoyment with
it, but that definitely was not the main
driving force.
But behind my exercise routine, it was like
(06:04):
to feel like I had permission to rest.
And without the exercise, I didn't feel like
I had the permission to rest.
I didn't earn it.
And that was something that I really had
(06:25):
to explore and sit with when I got
really deep into practice.
Because why can't I just exist and be
okay with that?
Why do I have to earn that?
What makes me so bad or wrong that
I don't deserve to just sit down and
take a break unless I've accomplished something in
(06:47):
advance.
And I eventually, this is years later, got
chronic Lyme disease.
And I had to stop running.
My joints hurt too much.
And I was way too tired.
(07:07):
And it just felt so bad that it
was clearly not healthy for me to keep
running or do most exercise actually.
And so I kind of just stopped exercising
because I was forced to.
And then I really had to sit with
those feelings in a new way.
And that was very, very transformative for me.
(07:31):
I definitely don't have to earn lying down
because that's all I can do.
And it actually ultimately became a big relief
to just let myself have an unstructured day
where I don't have to wake up.
(07:52):
And the first thing I do is exercise.
I don't have any kind of regimen.
All I have to do is tune in
to what my body needs and wants in
the moment.
And that's it.
And I go from there.
I don't even have to have a plan
for the day.
That sounds as someone who has struggled with,
I talk about this on my podcast, so
it's no secret, but exercise addiction for most
(08:12):
of my life, hearing you say that sounds
amazing.
And I'm like, Oh my God, I can
relate so much.
But yeah, it's this whole idea, you know,
some people will work out because they're trying
to diet.
So they feel like I have to work
out to earn my food.
Whereas like, there's also parts of us that
are like, I don't want to be seen
as lazy.
So I have to go out and run
(08:33):
X amount of miles or anything before I
can sit down and watch my Netflix show.
Right.
Yeah.
It's, it's how we think about ourselves and
how we might feel like other people are
perceiving us that drives so much of what
we do.
And it's at the expense of actually listening
(08:55):
to what we need and what our bodies
need.
And it's, it establishes such a contentious relationship
with our bodies where we're just kind of
trying to take control and be in charge
of our bodies instead of valuing any kind
of feedback or information that our bodies are
trying to tell us.
And our bodies are always trying to help
(09:16):
us feel the best that we can.
And we don't trust them and that and
we beat it to the ground so many
times.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so the widening gap between our minds
and our bodies actually ultimately is not serving
the mind or the body.
And I was kind of forced to close
(09:40):
the gap when I, when I had to
stop exercising and started having to listen to
my body more and more and more.
And ultimately what I actually found was that
it is so much healthier in every way
to listen to your body and to do
way more rest than, I mean, even now
(10:03):
I, my Lyme symptoms aren't that bad anymore,
but I still have this habit of my
default is to rest.
It's not to go run a marathon or
even exercise at all.
My default is just to rest.
And from there, I get to tune in
to when my body wants to do something
(10:26):
because it feels good.
And that is, has been such a game
changer for me, you know, like, and weirdly
enough, I love the way my body looks
and feels now more than any other time
in my whole life, which is wild considering
(10:48):
all of what I've been through and how
much like self-hatred, driven exercise I was
doing.
And just from really appreciating how much my
body does for me and taking more time
to notice that and just sitting with my
(11:10):
body and feeling all the ways that it's
trying to support me and wellness, I've come
to really, really respect it a lot more
and love it a lot more.
I love that.
Congratulations.
One thing that you had also mentioned a
little back was how you're exercising because of
how people will perceive you or how we
see people perceiving ourselves.
(11:31):
And it's very selfish of us.
And I think that meditation would help us
as well to think that we are the
main character in everybody else's life around us,
right?
We're at the end of it.
We're so worried about what your neighbor thinks,
or, you know, if they don't see you
go run or whatever the case may be.
At the end of the day, I tell
people all the time, you're not that important.
And nobody's paying attention to you.
(11:51):
Nobody cares.
They're only worried about themselves.
They are their own main character.
And so once you like have that experience,
that realization, it's very freeing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's so freeing.
I mean, for me, it was more like
I would be self-conscious because I would
think that other people were judging my body
(12:11):
for the way it looked.
And again, like, I actually kind of think
that people may feel safer around someone who
isn't extraordinarily fit looking.
Oh, sure.
Right.
Because it gives them permission to look how
they need to look.
(12:32):
Whereas when you're around somebody who is super
fit looking, you're thinking they're judging me because
I'm not.
Yeah, for sure.
Or if you're around people, they're looking at
her because she's the hot fit one.
Who am I in this?
I'm the ugly friend, quote unquote.
Yeah.
And in the Buddhist tradition that I am
trained in, what we really, really value is
(12:55):
other people and animals and every kind of
being feeling safe around us, because that's the
foundation of love, actually.
So the more that that is my goal
to help other people feel safe around me,
the less it becomes about me.
And literally, if that is, you know, I
(13:16):
don't have to be special, and I definitely
don't have to or want to be better
than anyone else.
I just want people to feel safe around
me.
That's beautiful.
Now you said that you got started with
just eight minute meditations for someone who has
been curious about it.
What is like, one, I think that's great
because I stress the fact all the time,
like something is there than nothing.
(13:37):
So it's not as if you're sitting in
a, you know, a dark room for 30
minutes of your day while your kids are
running a muck around the house.
Eight minutes is pretty easy for somebody to
do.
What does an eight minute beginner meditation kind
of look like?
And how do you even start to tune
out the outside noise?
Yeah.
So I think the first thing to know
(13:58):
and the biggest misconception about meditation is that
you have to tune stuff out and that
you have to clear your mind and that
you have to feel any particular way at
all.
You don't.
You just notice what you are feeling and
make space for it.
So it's eight minutes of observing your experience.
(14:19):
What's happening in the body?
How does the breath feel?
Where are the places of tension?
Maybe what's going on in the world of
sound?
Not trying to listen to other people's conversations
or like the background noise of the TV,
but just kind of softly letting sound in
kind of like you would be listening to
(14:41):
a piece of music, you know, just like
letting it wash through.
And then the same thing with thoughts.
You can observe thoughts.
You can, instead of being the one thinking
and planning and remembering and making your daily
to-do list, you're just noticing when your
mind becomes active.
And again, you're not trying to clear the
(15:02):
mind.
You're not trying to tamp thought down when
it arises.
You're simply noticing it and kind of just
watching the mind do its monkey thing and
trying not to get over involved with it.
It's going to be active.
It's going to do stuff.
And it's not the goal to get it
(15:24):
to stop.
And it's not a failure if you can't,
because that's not the goal.
It's just to notice that thoughts are like
any other part of your experience.
They arise and pass away just like a
sound does, just like a sensation in the
body.
So we start to take this observer perspective
when we meditate and we begin to see
(15:45):
that our experience doesn't have to be something
that we're constantly trying to manipulate and control.
It can just be witnessed.
And it's that witnessing place that starts to
become a kind of solace for us.
We come back and back again and again
to this witnessing place.
(16:06):
And so logistically how this would look when
you're meditating for eight minutes is it helps
a lot of people to pick some anchor
to pay attention to and come back to
again and again.
Like the breath is maybe the most commonly
suggested anchor, but that doesn't work for everyone.
Sometimes sound is a more helpful one or
(16:27):
just one place in the body, like the
tingling of your feet or the way it
feels to be sitting or whatever.
And you don't have to sit in any
particular posture.
You could even be lying down if that's
all your body can handle right now.
And you could also be walking.
So this might be a helpful way for
(16:49):
people who are full of restlessness to dip
their toes into meditation is to walk back
and forth.
If you can find like a large enough
room, that's maybe you get like 10 or
15 feet to walk back and forth in
and you just do it kind of slow
and your anchor is the feeling of your
(17:10):
legs.
So that's the thing that you come back
to again and again and just notice with
a soft receptive attention.
And anytime you notice that the mind is
wandering, then you just notice that and you
come back to your anchor.
I'm assuming if you're going to do it
(17:30):
with walking, don't make sure you're not listening
to a book on tape or a podcast.
Right.
Yeah.
The less the less distraction that you are
inserting the better.
You're not trying to do anything other than
observe what's happening.
So if there's stuff going on around you
that you can't control, like you can shut
(17:51):
the TV off if there's no one else
watching it, but don't use the time to
multitask and be like, I'm going to meditate
and do something else.
Cause no, that's not how it works.
You just meditate.
Right.
It sounds like it's a very therapeutic experience.
Like you were having a lot of moments
to yourself and be like, Oh, this is
the way that I do this.
This is the way I do this.
(18:11):
Do you ever then take all of your
thoughts that you had and then journal them
afterwards to kind of like get them out
of your body, out of your mind?
From time to time I've done that.
I've been like struck with some creative idea
during a meditation session and I've written it
down, but it can be a little bit
(18:32):
of a slippery slope where like you just
use your meditation period as a time to
generate ideas.
And we do get very creative in the
space where we're just observing and we're not
as involved with our thoughts.
So a lot of creative thoughts arise.
And so it's very tempting to just like
stop in the middle of your meditation and
write it down.
(18:53):
And then turns out you look at it
the next day and you're like, that was
actually not that good of an idea.
That was actually kind of stupid.
Yeah.
It's like when you're drunk and you think
you're saying something funny, but it's actually really
dumb.
So I would err on the side of
not doing that just because it's so often
the case that the mind just gets even
(19:15):
more relaxed and more expansive if we're not
grabbing onto any of the thoughts and trying
to chase them.
And the whole reason that that creative genius
struck us was because we had entered this
space that was just soft and receptive.
And so just keep going towards that and
even more will happen, even more will unfold.
(19:35):
There's so much that can be discovered that
is way better than like your idea about
how to be more efficient at the grocery
store or whatever, whatever it is, you know,
there's, there's just way more insight that can
happen.
And we will remember the ones that are
important.
They will just stick.
We don't have to write them down.
What are the different types of meditation?
(19:57):
Because I read somewhere about like Thai forest
meditation.
I know the different practices like Buddhist meditation.
What's different in the way that it's practiced
or the way that it is carried out?
Well, Thai forest is a branch of Buddhism.
And there are many different branches of Buddhism
(20:20):
and many different techniques.
The main technique that I or I don't
know if it's a technique, but the main
form of meditation that I teach and talk
about is called mindfulness, which a lot of
people know.
It's also known as Vipassana or insight meditation.
And I mean, there are lots of different
kinds of meditation that are not Buddhist, like
(20:42):
transcendental meditation is one of them.
And like, there's kind of like a self
hypnosis thing that you can do.
There, I would, I would just do mindfulness
if you're a beginner.
There's a couple others that I also teach
and practice.
One is called loving kindness meditation.
(21:03):
And you can use that to help generate
more, more feelings and inclinations towards care, towards
other people, towards other beings, towards yourself.
So that's called loving kindness meditation.
And then there's a form of meditation that's
(21:25):
kind of designed to help get into states
that are quite deep, profound, clear mind, calm,
tranquil states.
And that is called concentration meditation.
So in, in, in those states, there can
be a lot of clarity, which is the
(21:48):
point of doing that meditation, you see clearly
into the true nature of things that everything
is impermanent, coming and going, there's nothing really
to hold on to.
And so we get this glimpse of real
profundity that helps give us a lot of
perspective in our regular lives.
(22:09):
So that a lot of people, that's kind
of like sexy.
That's like the sexy meditation.
People like doing that, or they come to
meditation because they've heard about concentration practice and
the cool trippy states that you can get
yourself into by doing that.
But it's definitely not for everyone, especially if
you have a lot of trauma, it can
be really kind of intense to do that.
(22:31):
Are those the ones where people are like
dancing around by the end of it, or
very like orgasmic almost with like crowds.
It can be, it can totally orgasmic.
I mean, it can be extreme physical pleasure.
It can be like, you're not feeling anything
in your body at all because you're so
(22:52):
like beyond like concept.
But I don't know, I haven't seen the
dancing thing.
So you might be, that might be something
else.
Yeah, it's probably something else.
Like you, you say little keywords.
I'm like, Oh, I wonder if this was
that.
We had watched some cult from the 1980s
(23:12):
and Oregon.
And there was a lot of like chanting
going on with very wild dancing within the
groups by the time the chanting was done.
Oh, it sounds kind of like a like
group hypnosis kind of thing.
Like speaking in tongues and something.
Yeah, that's not those aren't things that I
have any experience with.
(23:33):
Yeah, they're wild.
I bet.
Yeah.
I wish I could remember the name of
the cult.
But I can't now again.
I yeah, it was crazy.
I think it was established in India and
then brought to Oregon.
Yeah, of course, of course, Oregon.
Right.
Exactly.
No offense, Oregon.
Exactly.
(23:53):
It's cool stuff happens in Oregon.
Now, guided meditation, because I know that you
have a lot of guided meditation.
And I was looking at your sub stack
and listening to a couple of them.
What is guided meditation?
And is it the power of the words
that people follow?
So it also helps keep you trapped into
what's going on.
Why is that so beneficial and helpful for
some people?
Yeah, it's well, it helps some people because
(24:15):
it just there's someone helping them remember to
come back again and again, and and also
pointing to particular things that you might notice
when you're meditating.
And especially if you're a beginner, it might
be a little hard for a lot of
people to know feel like they're doing it
right.
(24:35):
And a little bit of guidance help goes
a long way.
And a little bit of pointing to things
that the way that experience is also goes
a long way.
And, and we notice if someone is has
done it before, they have some sense of
(25:00):
what you might see, and they can kind
of point out different things that might be
there.
I mean, for me, when I got a
meditation, some of what I ended up pointing
out is self doubt, because that's such a
pervasive feeling in our culture.
And it comes up a lot for people
(25:21):
in meditation, you know, like, am I doing
this, right?
I can't do this.
Other people are better at this.
Not me.
I'm way too restless.
I have too much ADD or whatever.
I'm not good enough.
I'm not smart enough.
Yeah.
So I like to guide meditations and point
out how that might be actually just a
(25:41):
belief, just a thought.
And we could see it as just a
thought.
And I also like to counteract it.
You know, like, it's actually not true.
What makes you so special that you're worse
than everybody.
Right.
Going back to what we were talking about
before, except in the other direction.
Yeah, exactly.
And because because so often it's the self
doubt that makes people stop trying or not
(26:03):
even try in the first place.
And I think that everyone could have insight.
Everyone can have insight.
And maybe everyone has different ways of doing
that.
But if you don't even try before you
give up, then you'll never know if meditation
is right for you.
Yeah.
Do you feel like as soon as the
(26:24):
session is done, you almost have lost like
five pounds of stress.
Kind of like at the end of a
workout where you have that endorphin high, do
you have that like stress relief after spending
just five to 10 minutes sitting in your
thoughts?
Sometimes, but I wouldn't want to set up
that as the expectation.
(26:44):
Because sometimes the way it goes when we
meditate is we are more in touch with
some stuff that we've covered over.
You know, we're more in touch with some
anxiety or pain that was there all along,
but we were kind of running away from
(27:05):
it or masking it or, or, you know,
hiding from it in some way.
And so we get actually more sensitive when
we meditate.
And there is a relief because whatever barrier
we were holding up, we get to drop
that.
And that's a relief.
But we're also now in touch with whatever
(27:28):
vulnerability is behind that barrier.
And so it's a combination of relief, but
then also kind of having to move into
a more vulnerable and sensitive space.
And sit in those feelings.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you feel like in today's society that
we have that even more often because we
are able to put headphones in and listen
(27:51):
to a podcast or, you know, we're always
distracted.
So a lot of times we do run
away from our emotions.
So when we don't give ourselves very much
time to actually think about what we're going
through from a day to day basis.
Oh, totally.
I mean, there's distraction at our fingertips.
People make money off of distracting us.
And in some ways I love, I'm kind
(28:13):
of a rebellious spirit.
And so I love the fact that meditation
helps us reclaim our attention and be like,
wait a second.
I get to do what I want to
do with my mind and my body.
I don't want someone else to profit off
of my attention, which is what so many
(28:34):
people are doing.
They're capitalizing on our attention.
I want to reclaim my attention because that
is the most agency that I can have
over my life is my attention.
I can choose where I put it and
where I put my attention has a huge
impact on my wellbeing.
(28:55):
If I'm constantly focusing on thoughts that make
me anxious, I'm going to be an anxious
person.
But if I'm training my mind to focus
on thoughts that bring me joy and ease
and peace, that's the person I'm going to
become.
Yeah.
I love that.
(29:15):
On the weekends, I always spend about four
hours in my kitchen prepping for like the
weekend stuff.
And I do all of our meals and
my husband every week goes, do you want
me to turn on music?
Do you want me to put on a
podcast for you?
And it's the one time that I don't
want it.
I'm like, no, I don't want any noise.
This is just something that I do for
myself.
I can sit in my, that's kind of
my meditation for four hours in a sense.
(29:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And there's, don't get me started about background
music.
Yeah.
Oh, now I have to know the background
music.
I just, I mean, it's, it's like me,
I, for some reason I'm like so allergic
to having something just going in the background
because it just grates on me after a
(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) What's up guys?
Welcome to a new episode of the fit
ones with a podcast.
I'm going to just simply say I am
joined by an amazing and hilarious woman named
Cara Lai.
She's a meditation coach and we have the
best conversation about meditation and giving yourself permission
to live your best authentic life and I
think that you're gonna really enjoy this one.
(00:21):
So I'm not gonna give any long-winded
introduction to this.
I'm just gonna go ahead and start off
where our actual conversation started off too.
So I hope that you guys enjoy.
Make sure that you subscribe to the podcast
and go check Cara Lai out when this
episode is all done because she's pretty cool.
I just love having laid-back conversations as
if we're having a cup of coffee.
(00:41):
So very similar to what we're just doing
just a little bit more focused on the
topic at hand and what I love about
you is this whole idea of meditation and
when I came to your website I love
that you described yourself as like I'm a
meditation teacher, but I'm fun and quirky and
I was like, okay cool so this isn't
going to be like a Buddha experience where,
(01:02):
you know, when most people think of meditation
we think of monks and going to Thailand
and just sitting around and humming and I
think that meditation is so important but we
don't have a very good grasp on what
it actually is.
Yeah, I'm not, I'm a regular person and
I don't change the way I talk when
I guide a meditation.
(01:22):
I don't get all airy and uh-huh
and uh, I don't know, ephemeral or something.
We will, we will, is what I...
Yeah, I like, I like actually one of
the things that I value most in my
practice is making it totally easily translatable into
normal life and I think that if you,
(01:43):
if I'm modulating the way I am when
I'm teaching meditation so differently from how I
am in my normal life then I'm not
doing a very good job of making that
those, my regular life flow into my practice,
so.
And it can be a very scary thing
for people can be intrigued in it but
if they go to some place and it
(02:03):
is all the quote-unquote woo-woo it's
very hard to step into the doors and
be like this is something that I want
to try.
Yeah, because it makes it seem like it's
for a particular type of person.
Right.
And it's not, it can be for anyone.
So what was your journey like?
What got you into meditation in the first
place because you have quite an extensive background
as far as being a wilderness guide, a
(02:24):
social worker, a psychotherapist, so where did meditation
come in?
Well, I had, I was in my early
20s and I had gotten out of, I
went to art school for college and I
was trying to be an illustrator.
I was, I had like a 95 job
as an animator and I was just kind
(02:46):
of like miserable doing that and it didn't
feel like it had any meaning behind it.
And I was kind of searching for more
purpose in life but not, I didn't, I
don't think I would have been able to
put that into words.
And so I just quit my office job
and started doing things that felt good, which
(03:09):
it was, for me at the time I
had a lot of energy and I did
a lot of physical stuff.
Like I loved hiking and being outside and
running.
And so I got a job at an
outdoor education center and started working with kids
because I loved that too and being outside
a lot.
And I met someone at that job who
(03:31):
loved meditating.
And I think just because he sensed my
vibe, he was like, you would like meditating
too.
And so he gave me this little book
called Meditation.
And I just started doing it and did
love it because it just seemed like a
good idea to just spend eight minutes a
(03:53):
day just existing.
Especially at a time in my life when
I was pretty driven physically, I would like
train for and run marathons.
So the idea of slowing down was probably
very hard.
It actually, well, not for me because I
(04:13):
did both.
It was like, well, I go for my
run in the morning and then I would
just be totally relaxed for eight minutes.
And sometimes the best part of exercising is
afterwards when you just get to enjoy the
endorphins that are flowing through your body.
So I think that made it easier for
me to just be able to sit still
because I had gotten that out of me.
(04:37):
And then I got to sit with whatever
it was that was driving me so hard
to be so active.
And over the course of many years, I
learned a lot about that part of me
from my meditation practice and had to really
question the reasons that I was trying to
(04:59):
be so active and the parts of myself
that I might've been running away from.
So like using your fitness to cover up
for something else?
Yeah, which basically was a lot of insecurity
of many different forms.
I started running in the first place because
(05:22):
of body image stuff.
It wasn't because I liked running like nobody
likes running.
I actually just wasn't with a client this
morning.
It was her first time ever.
She's like, I just want to look, I
want to like exercise.
And I was like, I'm going to tell
you right now from the start, you're not
going to like it.
(05:43):
You're like, especially at the beginning, but you'll
eventually like the way you feel at the
end and that will keep you coming back.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, there were times when I really
did get to a place of enjoyment with
it, but that definitely was not the main
driving force.
But behind my exercise routine, it was like
(06:04):
to feel like I had permission to rest.
And without the exercise, I didn't feel like
I had the permission to rest.
I didn't earn it.
And that was something that I really had
(06:25):
to explore and sit with when I got
really deep into practice.
Because why can't I just exist and be
okay with that?
Why do I have to earn that?
What makes me so bad or wrong that
I don't deserve to just sit down and
take a break unless I've accomplished something in
(06:47):
advance.
And I eventually, this is years later, got
chronic Lyme disease.
And I had to stop running.
My joints hurt too much.
And I was way too tired.
(07:07):
And it just felt so bad that it
was clearly not healthy for me to keep
running or do most exercise actually.
And so I kind of just stopped exercising
because I was forced to.
And then I really had to sit with
those feelings in a new way.
And that was very, very transformative for me.
(07:31):
I definitely don't have to earn lying down
because that's all I can do.
And it actually ultimately became a big relief
to just let myself have an unstructured day
where I don't have to wake up.
(07:52):
And the first thing I do is exercise.
I don't have any kind of regimen.
All I have to do is tune in
to what my body needs and wants in
the moment.
And that's it.
And I go from there.
I don't even have to have a plan
for the day.
That sounds as someone who has struggled with,
I talk about this on my podcast, so
it's no secret, but exercise addiction for most
(08:12):
of my life, hearing you say that sounds
amazing.
And I'm like, Oh my God, I can
relate so much.
But yeah, it's this whole idea, you know,
some people will work out because they're trying
to diet.
So they feel like I have to work
out to earn my food.
Whereas like, there's also parts of us that
are like, I don't want to be seen
as lazy.
So I have to go out and run
(08:33):
X amount of miles or anything before I
can sit down and watch my Netflix show.
Right.
Yeah.
It's, it's how we think about ourselves and
how we might feel like other people are
perceiving us that drives so much of what
we do.
And it's at the expense of actually listening
(08:55):
to what we need and what our bodies
need.
And it's, it establishes such a contentious relationship
with our bodies where we're just kind of
trying to take control and be in charge
of our bodies instead of valuing any kind
of feedback or information that our bodies are
trying to tell us.
And our bodies are always trying to help
(09:16):
us feel the best that we can.
And we don't trust them and that and
we beat it to the ground so many
times.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so the widening gap between our minds
and our bodies actually ultimately is not serving
the mind or the body.
And I was kind of forced to close
(09:40):
the gap when I, when I had to
stop exercising and started having to listen to
my body more and more and more.
And ultimately what I actually found was that
it is so much healthier in every way
to listen to your body and to do
way more rest than, I mean, even now
(10:03):
I, my Lyme symptoms aren't that bad anymore,
but I still have this habit of my
default is to rest.
It's not to go run a marathon or
even exercise at all.
My default is just to rest.
And from there, I get to tune in
to when my body wants to do something
(10:26):
because it feels good.
And that is, has been such a game
changer for me, you know, like, and weirdly
enough, I love the way my body looks
and feels now more than any other time
in my whole life, which is wild considering
(10:48):
all of what I've been through and how
much like self-hatred, driven exercise I was
doing.
And just from really appreciating how much my
body does for me and taking more time
to notice that and just sitting with my
(11:10):
body and feeling all the ways that it's
trying to support me and wellness, I've come
to really, really respect it a lot more
and love it a lot more.
I love that.
Congratulations.
One thing that you had also mentioned a
little back was how you're exercising because of
how people will perceive you or how we
see people perceiving ourselves.
(11:31):
And it's very selfish of us.
And I think that meditation would help us
as well to think that we are the
main character in everybody else's life around us,
right?
We're at the end of it.
We're so worried about what your neighbor thinks,
or, you know, if they don't see you
go run or whatever the case may be.
At the end of the day, I tell
people all the time, you're not that important.
And nobody's paying attention to you.
(11:51):
Nobody cares.
They're only worried about themselves.
They are their own main character.
And so once you like have that experience,
that realization, it's very freeing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's so freeing.
I mean, for me, it was more like
I would be self-conscious because I would
think that other people were judging my body
(12:11):
for the way it looked.
And again, like, I actually kind of think
that people may feel safer around someone who
isn't extraordinarily fit looking.
Oh, sure.
Right.
Because it gives them permission to look how
they need to look.
(12:32):
Whereas when you're around somebody who is super
fit looking, you're thinking they're judging me because
I'm not.
Yeah, for sure.
Or if you're around people, they're looking at
her because she's the hot fit one.
Who am I in this?
I'm the ugly friend, quote unquote.
Yeah.
And in the Buddhist tradition that I am
trained in, what we really, really value is
(12:55):
other people and animals and every kind of
being feeling safe around us, because that's the
foundation of love, actually.
So the more that that is my goal
to help other people feel safe around me,
the less it becomes about me.
And literally, if that is, you know, I
(13:16):
don't have to be special, and I definitely
don't have to or want to be better
than anyone else.
I just want people to feel safe around
me.
That's beautiful.
Now you said that you got started with
just eight minute meditations for someone who has
been curious about it.
What is like, one, I think that's great
because I stress the fact all the time,
like something is there than nothing.
(13:37):
So it's not as if you're sitting in
a, you know, a dark room for 30
minutes of your day while your kids are
running a muck around the house.
Eight minutes is pretty easy for somebody to
do.
What does an eight minute beginner meditation kind
of look like?
And how do you even start to tune
out the outside noise?
Yeah.
So I think the first thing to know
(13:58):
and the biggest misconception about meditation is that
you have to tune stuff out and that
you have to clear your mind and that
you have to feel any particular way at
all.
You don't.
You just notice what you are feeling and
make space for it.
So it's eight minutes of observing your experience.
(14:19):
What's happening in the body?
How does the breath feel?
Where are the places of tension?
Maybe what's going on in the world of
sound?
Not trying to listen to other people's conversations
or like the background noise of the TV,
but just kind of softly letting sound in
kind of like you would be listening to
(14:41):
a piece of music, you know, just like
letting it wash through.
And then the same thing with thoughts.
You can observe thoughts.
You can, instead of being the one thinking
and planning and remembering and making your daily
to-do list, you're just noticing when your
mind becomes active.
And again, you're not trying to clear the
(15:02):
mind.
You're not trying to tamp thought down when
it arises.
You're simply noticing it and kind of just
watching the mind do its monkey thing and
trying not to get over involved with it.
It's going to be active.
It's going to do stuff.
And it's not the goal to get it
(15:24):
to stop.
And it's not a failure if you can't,
because that's not the goal.
It's just to notice that thoughts are like
any other part of your experience.
They arise and pass away just like a
sound does, just like a sensation in the
body.
So we start to take this observer perspective
when we meditate and we begin to see
(15:45):
that our experience doesn't have to be something
that we're constantly trying to manipulate and control.
It can just be witnessed.
And it's that witnessing place that starts to
become a kind of solace for us.
We come back and back again and again
to this witnessing place.
(16:06):
And so logistically how this would look when
you're meditating for eight minutes is it helps
a lot of people to pick some anchor
to pay attention to and come back to
again and again.
Like the breath is maybe the most commonly
suggested anchor, but that doesn't work for everyone.
Sometimes sound is a more helpful one or
(16:27):
just one place in the body, like the
tingling of your feet or the way it
feels to be sitting or whatever.
And you don't have to sit in any
particular posture.
You could even be lying down if that's
all your body can handle right now.
And you could also be walking.
So this might be a helpful way for
(16:49):
people who are full of restlessness to dip
their toes into meditation is to walk back
and forth.
If you can find like a large enough
room, that's maybe you get like 10 or
15 feet to walk back and forth in
and you just do it kind of slow
and your anchor is the feeling of your
(17:10):
legs.
So that's the thing that you come back
to again and again and just notice with
a soft receptive attention.
And anytime you notice that the mind is
wandering, then you just notice that and you
come back to your anchor.
I'm assuming if you're going to do it
(17:30):
with walking, don't make sure you're not listening
to a book on tape or a podcast.
Right.
Yeah.
The less the less distraction that you are
inserting the better.
You're not trying to do anything other than
observe what's happening.
So if there's stuff going on around you
that you can't control, like you can shut
(17:51):
the TV off if there's no one else
watching it, but don't use the time to
multitask and be like, I'm going to meditate
and do something else.
Cause no, that's not how it works.
You just meditate.
Right.
It sounds like it's a very therapeutic experience.
Like you were having a lot of moments
to yourself and be like, Oh, this is
the way that I do this.
This is the way I do this.
(18:11):
Do you ever then take all of your
thoughts that you had and then journal them
afterwards to kind of like get them out
of your body, out of your mind?
From time to time I've done that.
I've been like struck with some creative idea
during a meditation session and I've written it
down, but it can be a little bit
(18:32):
of a slippery slope where like you just
use your meditation period as a time to
generate ideas.
And we do get very creative in the
space where we're just observing and we're not
as involved with our thoughts.
So a lot of creative thoughts arise.
And so it's very tempting to just like
stop in the middle of your meditation and
write it down.
(18:53):
And then turns out you look at it
the next day and you're like, that was
actually not that good of an idea.
That was actually kind of stupid.
Yeah.
It's like when you're drunk and you think
you're saying something funny, but it's actually really
dumb.
So I would err on the side of
not doing that just because it's so often
the case that the mind just gets even
(19:15):
more relaxed and more expansive if we're not
grabbing onto any of the thoughts and trying
to chase them.
And the whole reason that that creative genius
struck us was because we had entered this
space that was just soft and receptive.
And so just keep going towards that and
even more will happen, even more will unfold.
(19:35):
There's so much that can be discovered that
is way better than like your idea about
how to be more efficient at the grocery
store or whatever, whatever it is, you know,
there's, there's just way more insight that can
happen.
And we will remember the ones that are
important.
They will just stick.
We don't have to write them down.
What are the different types of meditation?
(19:57):
Because I read somewhere about like Thai forest
meditation.
I know the different practices like Buddhist meditation.
What's different in the way that it's practiced
or the way that it is carried out?
Well, Thai forest is a branch of Buddhism.
And there are many different branches of Buddhism
(20:20):
and many different techniques.
The main technique that I or I don't
know if it's a technique, but the main
form of meditation that I teach and talk
about is called mindfulness, which a lot of
people know.
It's also known as Vipassana or insight meditation.
And I mean, there are lots of different
kinds of meditation that are not Buddhist, like
(20:42):
transcendental meditation is one of them.
And like, there's kind of like a self
hypnosis thing that you can do.
There, I would, I would just do mindfulness
if you're a beginner.
There's a couple others that I also teach
and practice.
One is called loving kindness meditation.
(21:03):
And you can use that to help generate
more, more feelings and inclinations towards care, towards
other people, towards other beings, towards yourself.
So that's called loving kindness meditation.
And then there's a form of meditation that's
(21:25):
kind of designed to help get into states
that are quite deep, profound, clear mind, calm,
tranquil states.
And that is called concentration meditation.
So in, in, in those states, there can
be a lot of clarity, which is the
(21:48):
point of doing that meditation, you see clearly
into the true nature of things that everything
is impermanent, coming and going, there's nothing really
to hold on to.
And so we get this glimpse of real
profundity that helps give us a lot of
perspective in our regular lives.
(22:09):
So that a lot of people, that's kind
of like sexy.
That's like the sexy meditation.
People like doing that, or they come to
meditation because they've heard about concentration practice and
the cool trippy states that you can get
yourself into by doing that.
But it's definitely not for everyone, especially if
you have a lot of trauma, it can
be really kind of intense to do that.
(22:31):
Are those the ones where people are like
dancing around by the end of it, or
very like orgasmic almost with like crowds.
It can be, it can totally orgasmic.
I mean, it can be extreme physical pleasure.
It can be like, you're not feeling anything
in your body at all because you're so
(22:52):
like beyond like concept.
But I don't know, I haven't seen the
dancing thing.
So you might be, that might be something
else.
Yeah, it's probably something else.
Like you, you say little keywords.
I'm like, Oh, I wonder if this was
that.
We had watched some cult from the 1980s
(23:12):
and Oregon.
And there was a lot of like chanting
going on with very wild dancing within the
groups by the time the chanting was done.
Oh, it sounds kind of like a like
group hypnosis kind of thing.
Like speaking in tongues and something.
Yeah, that's not those aren't things that I
have any experience with.
(23:33):
Yeah, they're wild.
I bet.
Yeah.
I wish I could remember the name of
the cult.
But I can't now again.
I yeah, it was crazy.
I think it was established in India and
then brought to Oregon.
Yeah, of course, of course, Oregon.
Right.
Exactly.
No offense, Oregon.
Exactly.
(23:53):
It's cool stuff happens in Oregon.
Now, guided meditation, because I know that you
have a lot of guided meditation.
And I was looking at your sub stack
and listening to a couple of them.
What is guided meditation?
And is it the power of the words
that people follow?
So it also helps keep you trapped into
what's going on.
Why is that so beneficial and helpful for
some people?
Yeah, it's well, it helps some people because
(24:15):
it just there's someone helping them remember to
come back again and again, and and also
pointing to particular things that you might notice
when you're meditating.
And especially if you're a beginner, it might
be a little hard for a lot of
people to know feel like they're doing it
right.
(24:35):
And a little bit of guidance help goes
a long way.
And a little bit of pointing to things
that the way that experience is also goes
a long way.
And, and we notice if someone is has
done it before, they have some sense of
(25:00):
what you might see, and they can kind
of point out different things that might be
there.
I mean, for me, when I got a
meditation, some of what I ended up pointing
out is self doubt, because that's such a
pervasive feeling in our culture.
And it comes up a lot for people
(25:21):
in meditation, you know, like, am I doing
this, right?
I can't do this.
Other people are better at this.
Not me.
I'm way too restless.
I have too much ADD or whatever.
I'm not good enough.
I'm not smart enough.
Yeah.
So I like to guide meditations and point
out how that might be actually just a
(25:41):
belief, just a thought.
And we could see it as just a
thought.
And I also like to counteract it.
You know, like, it's actually not true.
What makes you so special that you're worse
than everybody.
Right.
Going back to what we were talking about
before, except in the other direction.
Yeah, exactly.
And because because so often it's the self
doubt that makes people stop trying or not
(26:03):
even try in the first place.
And I think that everyone could have insight.
Everyone can have insight.
And maybe everyone has different ways of doing
that.
But if you don't even try before you
give up, then you'll never know if meditation
is right for you.
Yeah.
Do you feel like as soon as the
(26:24):
session is done, you almost have lost like
five pounds of stress.
Kind of like at the end of a
workout where you have that endorphin high, do
you have that like stress relief after spending
just five to 10 minutes sitting in your
thoughts?
Sometimes, but I wouldn't want to set up
that as the expectation.
(26:44):
Because sometimes the way it goes when we
meditate is we are more in touch with
some stuff that we've covered over.
You know, we're more in touch with some
anxiety or pain that was there all along,
but we were kind of running away from
(27:05):
it or masking it or, or, you know,
hiding from it in some way.
And so we get actually more sensitive when
we meditate.
And there is a relief because whatever barrier
we were holding up, we get to drop
that.
And that's a relief.
But we're also now in touch with whatever
(27:28):
vulnerability is behind that barrier.
And so it's a combination of relief, but
then also kind of having to move into
a more vulnerable and sensitive space.
And sit in those feelings.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you feel like in today's society that
we have that even more often because we
are able to put headphones in and listen
(27:51):
to a podcast or, you know, we're always
distracted.
So a lot of times we do run
away from our emotions.
So when we don't give ourselves very much
time to actually think about what we're going
through from a day to day basis.
Oh, totally.
I mean, there's distraction at our fingertips.
People make money off of distracting us.
And in some ways I love, I'm kind
(28:13):
of a rebellious spirit.
And so I love the fact that meditation
helps us reclaim our attention and be like,
wait a second.
I get to do what I want to
do with my mind and my body.
I don't want someone else to profit off
of my attention, which is what so many
(28:34):
people are doing.
They're capitalizing on our attention.
I want to reclaim my attention because that
is the most agency that I can have
over my life is my attention.
I can choose where I put it and
where I put my attention has a huge
impact on my wellbeing.
(28:55):
If I'm constantly focusing on thoughts that make
me anxious, I'm going to be an anxious
person.
But if I'm training my mind to focus
on thoughts that bring me joy and ease
and peace, that's the person I'm going to
become.
Yeah.
I love that.
(29:15):
On the weekends, I always spend about four
hours in my kitchen prepping for like the
weekend stuff.
And I do all of our meals and
my husband every week goes, do you want
me to turn on music?
Do you want me to put on a
podcast for you?
And it's the one time that I don't
want it.
I'm like, no, I don't want any noise.
This is just something that I do for
myself.
I can sit in my, that's kind of
my meditation for four hours in a sense.
(29:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And there's, don't get me started about background
music.
Yeah.
Oh, now I have to know the background
music.
I just, I mean, it's, it's like me,
I, for some reason I'm like so allergic
to having something just going in the background
because it just grates on me after a
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Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.