Cut It In The Butt

Heather and Zoe rewind to their pre-sobriety dating lives, revealing the kinds of relationships they found themselves in while navigating addiction. They share personal stories about the partners they chose, the boundaries they ignored, and the ways alcohol influenced their sense of self-worth. This is part one of a two-part series on dating, starting with the past: who they were, who they loved, and what they learned.

Mentioned In This Episode:

• Celebrities: Dax Shephard, James Kennedy, Ally Lewber, Kathy Hilton, Kristen Doute, Monica Lewinsky, RuPaul
• TV: Vanderpump Rules, White Lotus
• Movies: The Notebook
• Going Deeper with Ally Lewber | The Viall Files
• Call Her Daddy Podcast with Ed Sheeran
• Monica Lewinsky Returns | Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard
• Reclaiming with Monica Lewinksy

Listen, rate, and subscribe to Girl, Undrunk 🎙️✨ Episodes drop weekly on Wednesday. Proud of you!

Production by Ariane Michaud at Consciously Produced LLC, artwork by Martin Nuñez-Bonilla, sound set-up by Ian Sit, music/final edits by Daniel James, and editing/transcript by Chelsea Neilan.

Episode Transcript

Heather (00:00):
This podcast covers sensitive topics that may be
difficult for some listeners.
Please take care while listening.
Hi everyone.
Welcome back to Girl, Undrunk.
I'm your host Heather.
And today's episode might sound alittle bit like a therapy session
because it kind of is, we're going backin time unpacking the relationships

(00:21):
we had before we got sober.
And as you can imagine,it gets kind of real.
So much of recovery is untangling therelationships we were in while we were
drinking, the people we chose, whatwe put up with, and the versions of
ourselves we brought to the table.
It's wild to look back and realize howmuch of that was shaped by addiction.

(00:41):
And the thing is, everyone'srecovery looks very different.
Zoe and I have takenreally different paths.
She's in AA, I'm not, but we'veboth had to relearn what love and
connection even mean when you'reno longer trying to disappear.
This is part one of a serieswe're doing about dating.
Today is all aboutrelationships before sobriety.
And next week we'll get into whatit's like to date after sobriety, how

(01:05):
different it feels when you're actuallypresent, not numbing and trying to
have fun without the support of liquidcourage, false chemistry, or the chaos
we used to mistake for connection.
I love talking about this stuff with Zoebecause she's one of my closest friends.
We could talk about dating andrelationships forever, but this is the
first time we're doing it with a micin front of us so you might hear us

(01:28):
feeling out just how much we wanna share.
And on that note, mom anddad, maybe skip this episode.
Okay?
Okay, let's get into it.
You're listening to Girl,
Undrunk.

(01:56):
Hi, everyone.

Zoe (01:58):
Hi.

Heather (01:58):
Hey, Zoe.
Welcome back.
This is episode eight.

Zoe (02:02):
Crazy.

Heather (02:03):
Crazy.

Zoe (02:04):
Um, everyone's listening.

Heather (02:05):
I know.
It feels so good.
You, you sent it to your friend in Reno.

Zoe (02:10):
Yeah, my friend in Reno, she watches the stories all the time and
I FaceTimed her finally last week,I think, just to catch up a bit.
And she also said that she sent itto her friend whose son is in active
addiction trying to get sober andhe said that he really related to it.

Heather (02:28):
Nice.

Zoe (02:28):
Which is great because I feel like we're not completely for the
boys, but that's good that hecould just relate in how no one's
really talking about this, you know?

Heather (02:40):
And if we're sitting here talking about shitty men and you're
not a shitty man, then that's okay.

Zoe (02:45):
And that's okay.
And we like you.
We want to like all of you boys.
But it's, you guys make it hard sometimes.

Heather (02:51):
You do, but you do make it easier when you're sober.
That's true.

Zoe (02:54):
If you're a sober boy, you get an extra five points.

Heather (02:57):
It's true.

Zoe (02:57):
You start at five, you don't start at zero like the rest of them.

Heather (03:00):
Wait, that's what I say.

Zoe (03:02):
Really?

Heather (03:02):
Yeah.

Zoe (03:03):
Okay..

Heather (03:03):
Wait.
Whoa.
And I don't think we've evertalked about this though.

Zoe (03:06):
I've never thought about that until now.

Heather (03:08):
Okay.
Because you know how people like, you'resupposed to like start at like a hundred
and then you go up or down from there.
Not to me.
Like men to me actually started at zero.
And you have to like push throughthe pavement to get up there.

Zoe (03:18):
I think that's how it should work.

Heather (03:20):
But when you're sober, you do start at more of a three to a five.

Zoe (03:24):
I would say you start at five.

Heather (03:25):
Okay.
That's really generous of you Zoe.
There's this guy that I, I, I've mentionedon the podcast before, even though
we were messaging this weekend, and Ispecifically told him I wasn't gonna
say anything about him on the podcast.

Zoe (03:34):
Sorry.

Heather (03:35):
Which, which I'm not.
But we, we've known eachother since we were little,
little, but we've never spoken.
And now that he's sober and we'vekind of gone back and forth . About
sobriety, I'm just like ah, I justfeel like you're my friend and we don't
even know each other, but I care somuch about you because you're sober.
Which means you have some sortof story or something going
on emotionally, and I like it.

Zoe (03:56):
And it's also the fact that we can connect to someone who's sober,
like someone who says that, and like,oh, we have something in common.
And it is such a community of people.
We're always there for thesobers, for the addicts.
Like, if you're struggling Iunderstand completely what you're
going through and I'll help you out.

(04:18):
So your mental health isnot so great Right now.

Heather (04:21):
My mental health is not so great right now.
I, I just feel like I am, Ican't catch up on homework.
Inside my own body.
. I feel like I'm an assignment behindand I'm just like, everything I do
is like getting slower and slower andI, but my internal clock is moving so
fucking fast, and I'm like, panicking.
But that's how I've beenfeeling for like a week.
I just feel so weird.

Zoe (04:42):
I know.
I didn't like hear fromyou for over a day.
And then I was like, okay,something's off with Heather.
Let me text her.
And something was off with you.
I know.
I literally know you now, like I know.
Know when something's off in you.
Well, and I even felt weird.
It,

Heather (04:55):
I felt weird about today.
I was like, Zoes coming over.
We haven't talked.
I feel like I like cheated on you andthen like haven't spoken about it,
but I'm just like, my brain is justso, like I was two days ago, I was
lying in my bed, like looking at theceiling, being like, I might as well be
drunk right now because I can't move.
I was so tired.
I'm getting brain shocks.
You're not on, um, antidepressants, right?

Zoe (05:17):
No.

Heather (05:17):
If you're on an SSRI, this happens.
I know this happens to other peoplethat when you miss your medication,
you get these like shocks in your body.
And it literally feels like anelectric shock in your brain.
And I also get it in my fingernails.
And then it, it's a shock.
And then it's kind oflike a won like, whoa.
Wonky in your brain and then you comeback . It's not a good feeling and

(05:37):
I don't know why I'm getting that.
Potentially I just like have built up atolerance to my meds and now I need more.
Or it's my period and my hormones.
Like they, I feel like myperiod cancels out medication.
It's like LOL, no.

Zoe (05:53):
And maybe you just like, like I said, everyone has off weeks and
I think you just like had an offweek and you've had a lot of stuff.
Come up in your personal lifethis past month that maybe
you really didn't deal with.
So it, it all makes sense.
And like you just have to like pushyourself to get outside and enjoy
life and not try to, try not to rotin bed 'cause I know when I am feeling

(06:16):
sad and I just like lay in bed allday, it doesn't make anything better.

Heather (06:20):
It really doesn't.
And I do feel that's what Iused to do when I was drinking.
I would sit in my bed all dayand drink wine and spill shit.
And I did, I spillt teain my bed the other day.

Zoe (06:28):
Oh no.

Heather (06:29):
I was-

Zoe (06:29):
Trigger

Heather (06:31):
Huge fucking trigger.
And it was at night, it was like 8:00PM which I should already be in bed,
which I was, but I wasn't sleeping.
I was drinking caffeine and I spilt itin my bed and I was like, oh my God,
do I clean this right now or tomorrow?
And I was like whole right now.
Literally right now youcannot sit in like tea milk.
But it's just like, I used to do that andI would spill shit and be like, whatever.

(06:51):
I'm already garbage.
I'll just, I used to throwit sheets all the time.

Zoe (06:55):
Well, I hope you like bounce back this week.

Heather (06:58):
Is your mental health okay?

Zoe (07:00):
My mental health is crazy because I was so anxious this week because I
spoke at the meeting on Saturday first.

Heather (07:08):
Yes.
Tell me about that.
How did that go?

Zoe (07:10):
Man, I was so scared I was gonna like, puke on the stage.
Like I-

Heather (07:14):
You were on a stage?

Zoe (07:15):
Well, I was at the front of like, the room not elevated, but I
was at the front and with a podium.

Heather (07:22):
Oh man.

Zoe (07:22):
So it was just me in that podium and a hundred people watching me.
Like I was saying, I have never beenthis anxious before in sobriety.

Heather (07:31):
Wow.

Zoe (07:32):
Going on first dates, I probably was a little close to that anxious, but not
as anxious as I truly was on Saturday.
And I think it's because I, Icared about it more than going
on a first date, you know?
I cared about what I was gonna sayto the newcomer way more than I. What
I said to a first date, you know?

Heather (07:50):
I mean, it's a huge thing.
It's, it's all eyes on you.
You're talking about your story.
This is like the first time you'regoing like, you know, beginning to end.
And people are there to listen to you.
It's crazy.
Did you write it down?

Zoe (08:02):
No.
I just kind of talked tomyself on Saturday a lot to
see what I was gonna say.
But and then when I was over, I feltso vulnerable after, and so I felt
like proud, but I also was like, God,I could have done a little bit better.
You know?

Heather (08:19):
What do you wish you would've said?

Zoe (08:20):
Well, I kind of ended it very abruptly.
I, uh, I saw that there wasonly five minutes after the
meeting and I was like, oh, shit.
Like that gives me note.
Like I can end it now.
And so I kind of just like wrapped itup super quick and I could have talked
more about what life is today insteadof just like ending it so abruptly.
But it is what it is.
And that was my first time.

(08:40):
And I'll get better and I know that,so I can't be too hard on myself, but.

Heather (08:45):
No, of course.

Zoe (08:45):
Overall I think it was good.
Everyone like congratulatedme after and I felt good.
I just like felt very vulnerableand emotionally drained and I
didn't go out with anybody afterthe meeting 'cause I just needed to
go home and just be by myself andprocess what the heck just happened.

Heather (09:02):
Well it's so, it's, it's so vulnerable.
You, you've exposed everything.
You literally just got naked, likecut your body open and said hello.
Here you go.
Take what you want.
That's crazy.
You know, we do it every week,but we're sitting behind a mic.

Zoe (09:15):
Exactly.
And it's just me and you.
I don't think of anybody elsethat's listening right now.

Heather (09:19):
I guess like as the years go on and like the, the longer you're
sober, you probably, when you do tellyour story it'll probably change 'cause
what you realize is most important orlike most impactful for you probably
will be different in five years.

Zoe (09:33):
I think so too.
I think it will just get better andbetter and I know that, but I was so
proud of myself because I think that'slike the hardest thing I've literally
had to do in sobriety so far is do that.
I'm proud that I can pushmyself without needing alcohol.

Heather (09:49):
Did you wanna drink like that on Saturday?

Zoe (09:52):
No.
No I didn't.
I just was like, God, I hatefeeling like this, like my stomach.
Like I was, I have never been thatanxious in my life without alcohol.

Heather (10:02):
Wow.

Zoe (10:02):
Like I was anxious all the time when I was like drunk because I would feel so
bad about my fucked up life, you know?
But that was crazy.

Heather (10:10):
That's crazy.

Zoe (10:10):
And it's done and I feel happy.
. And proud and I'm excitedfor like what's to come.
And hopefully I get tosponsor some girls soon.
Hopefully they like, oh, like me.

Heather (10:23):
'cause you're done your steps.

Zoe (10:24):
I'm like, done.

Heather (10:26):
So now, next meeting when they say like, is there anyone looking for,

Zoe (10:31):
Like I raised my hand on Saturday.

Heather (10:33):
Whoa.

Zoe (10:35):
This is a long time coming.
I definitely took my time doing this.
Like I've, I'm two and a halfyears sober almost, and I should
have been like sponsoring womenafter the first year, to be honest.

Heather (10:45):
So wait, it's supposed to be by who's fucking standards?

Zoe (10:48):
I mean, like, I don't know if everyone takes
their time as much as I did.
I'm such a procrastinatorand I accept that, but-

Heather (10:56):
But you're sober.

Zoe (10:56):
But I'm sober and that's all that matters.

Heather (10:59):
But is that like the vibe, like you're supposed to after a year start?

Zoe (11:03):
It's not like a rule, but it's just like, I, I think I could have
been doing it by now, but everyone haslike their own pace and I was never
one to be like quick about anything.
I just like really wanted to do itwell and make sure like I was okay.

Heather (11:21):
I think maybe you feel like that.
'cause that's like how I feelwhen I pretend to do homework,
I'm like, I don't wanna do that.
I'm lazy.
But I think like if you weren'tready a year ago ,if you
didn't want to be a sponsor-

Zoe (11:35):
Well that's also true because I stopped going to meetings last year too.
Like at this point last yearI wasn't going to meetings.
So that also break gave memore time to waste, I guess.
Not to waste, but I, everything happenedthe way it's supposed to happen.
I finally told my storyand now is the next step.

Heather (11:56):
Your sobriety is your own.
And like the way that we staysober is like not adhering to
these like strict fucking scary
things that we don't wanna do.

Zoe (12:04):
No one was rushing me.
I think it's just my mind beinglike, oh, I see other people
who are sponsoring women afternine months, one year, whatever.
.And I just compare myself to that and I shouldn't, and I went at my own pace and
I'm here and I'm sober and I'm proud, and

Heather (12:24):
Yeah

Zoe (12:24):
I'm ready.

Heather (12:25):
It's such an interesting perspective because I would assume
that you wouldn't be a sponsor untilyou're at least two to five years sober.
But I guess that's, and I'm notin AA, so I don't really know.
But it's funny to be like, after ninemonths you're sponsoring someone.
And I get that it's for you, right?
It's like beneficial for thesponsor to have sponsees because
it keeps you accountable.
It's like you're helping giving back.

(12:46):
That's what Dax Shephard said he islike, as an addict or as a recovering
addict, you like, you tell yourstory once and then you never stop
telling it for the rest of your life.

Zoe (12:53):
Exactly.
I'm very interested in Dax though, becausehe always says he doesn't believe in God.
I'm like, how does theprogram work for you then?

Heather (13:01):
Do you believe in God?

Zoe (13:02):
Yeah, I believe in my God.

Heather (13:05):
Did you believe in God before?

Zoe (13:06):
I am very spiritual.

Heather (13:08):
Sure.

Zoe (13:08):
And my spirituality is, my God.

Heather (13:11):
Did you grow up religious?

Zoe (13:12):
No, but in yoga, like I did yoga off ice after figure skating every day.
Like that was our off ice trainingwas kind of like doing yoga so
that spiritualness meditationthat comes with yoga I think I was
always intrigued with that and Ikind of always believed in that.
And, um, yeah, like so having faith andbelieving that everything's supposed to

(13:35):
happen the way it is, I believe in that.

Heather (13:37):
But I don't know if that's- that's God to you?

Zoe (13:39):
So that's, that's God to me,

Heather (13:40):
That's probably the same thing.
He just-

Zoe (13:42):
I don't believe in religion.

Heather (13:44):
No.

Zoe (13:45):
And like at the meetings they say like, your God can be your friends.
You know, like your God can be love.
Your God can be everybody in thisroom who somehow made it into
this room and they're an addict.
Like, that's crazy.

Heather (13:57):
Well, see that's where, that's what it is for me.
When I went to rehab and people werelike really struggling with the idea of
God and like waiting to hear his voice.
I was like, wait, what?
You're in rehab.
You're, you made a choice.
This is the fucking path.
I feel like with Dax Shepherd,his God is like his ego.

Zoe (14:14):
I mean I just, I don't really understand why he talks about
the program and then talks abouthow he doesn't believe in a God.
I'm like, ah, did what you need to havebelieve in something for the program.

Heather (14:28):
Interesting.

Zoe (14:29):
And it can be whatever you want it to be.
I'll be interested totalk to him about it-

Heather (14:35):
When, when we're on this podcast?

Zoe (14:36):
Yep.

Heather (14:36):
That would be, it is interesting because I'm like, does
that mean that everyone's sittingin those rooms, believes in God?

Zoe (14:42):
In their version of God.
It's just nice to like believein something when you're
trying to get sober, I think.

Heather (14:55):
Okay.
Did you watch it?
The James Kennedy interview,because I'm gonna tell you about it.

Zoe (14:59):
Okay.
Tell me.

Heather (15:00):
Um, okay, so James Kennedy-

Zoe (15:03):
The alcoholic?

Heather (15:04):
Yes.
Yes.
He's an alcoholic.
He's on Vanderpump Rules.
Yes.
And he started dating AllyLewber a few years ago.
Okay.
She's like-

Zoe (15:12):
She went on Nick Viall's podcast.
I did see some clips.

Heather (15:15):
Okay.
So she just went on Nick Viall'spodcast and obviously like,
it was like a, a dramatic one.
We knew they were gonna be talkingabout James Kennedy because Kathy Hilton
was throwing her big Christmas party.
And Ally Lewbert, James's girlfriendwas actually working there because she
was doing Kathy Hilton's birth chart.
'cause she does astrology.

(15:37):
She comes out, obviously likethe party's going on, and James
comes up to her and she's like.
James can have one drink andI know 'cause he's just drunk.
So James comes up to meand I go, are you drunk?
And he goes, no.
Are you drunk?
And she's like, okay, you're drunk.
So she tries to just like chill.
Like she, she, mind you, atthis point she thought that
he'd been sober for two months.

(15:58):
But she's like, nah, he's beendrinking the whole time behind my back.
And this, I mean, everyone who'slike following the whole thing on
Vanderpump is like, you can tell whenhe's drinking and when he's on coke.

Zoe (16:07):
Because he's aggressive too, right?

Heather (16:08):
Yeah and Allys saying like, he can have one drink and I know
immediately I'm like, no, he's had five.
A few.
Like he's showed up.

Zoe (16:15):
You've seen one in his hand but behind closed doors, he's had a few.

Heather (16:18):
I'm like, did you guys show up separately?
Because he was drinking at home.
Like there's no fucking way.
But so then they getinto an Uber to go home.
This is where it all takes place.
They have a big fight.
Apparently they're yellingat each other in the Uber.
He's drunk.
She's like saying You're drunkand he's saying he's not.
Then a witness, someone close toAlly said that they saw James.

(16:40):
This is all in like the, the,uh, police report that he,
they saw James pick up Ally.
Now Allie has like ahundred pound soaking wet.
She's a teeny tiny little,she's tiny squirrel.
Pick her up and throw her to the ground.

Zoe (16:52):
From the Uber?

Heather (16:54):
No, like they were, had left the Uber and then they were fighting and then
he like he, like choke, choke slammed her.

Zoe (16:59):
Wow.
I learned that in boxing today.

Heather (17:02):
Choke slam?

Zoe (17:02):
No.

Heather (17:03):
Oh, what?

Zoe (17:04):
I did do boxing.

Heather (17:05):
What did you learn in boxing?

Zoe (17:06):
I actually started moving while I'm punching today I'm learning some footwork.

Heather (17:09):
Oh, fancy.
Anyways.
Dun.
Um, yeah, he chokes, slander, and thenthe cops come, whatever, separate them.
And then Ally's mom came likethe next weekend and like
moved her out into an Airbnb.
And Ali was saying, she's like, Ididn't even know if I wanted to go.
If my mom wasn't coming and if I didn'thave her support, I probably wouldn't

(17:30):
have left, even though I knew I should.
Fucking good for her.
So it's a lot because-

Zoe (17:36):
So is James now in rehab?

Heather (17:37):
No.

Zoe (17:37):
Okay.
He's still drinking?

Heather (17:39):
Yes.
He's on tour right now.
So he's a DJ.
Ally said that when he was ontour he said he wasn't drinking.
Maybe it's because she doesnot know what addiction is.
Maybe it's 'cause she'snever been with an addict.
She's not an addict herself, soshe doesn't know and she wants
to believe him at face value.
But for two months when he wason the road DJing nightclubs,

(18:03):
you think that he's sober?
Okay.
And now we're at Kathy Hilton's partyand you're realizing he's not sober and
then he drop slams you and then Nick-so they go through this whole interview
and Nick Viall at some point goes like,okay, I just wanna be like clear about
the domestic abuse, like did that happen?
And she just takes a giantcircle around the conversation.

(18:25):
You know, that's not even,I'm not even really mad.
Right.
The thing I was really mad aboutwas like the lying and the drinking.
And I was like, you're noteven gonna fucking touch it.
No.
I don't know if she can, I don't know.
Maybe there's a lawsuit she mightnot be able to say, but to me I
was like, you're protecting him.

Zoe (18:42):
Yep.
Are they broken up?

Heather (18:44):
Yeah.

Zoe (18:44):
Okay.

Heather (18:45):
But they've also broken up before, like they've been in
and out because of his drinking.
And she, she told him like she gavehim an ultimatum and was like, if
you don't stop drinking, I'm done.
And he knew that she was done.
Done.

Zoe (18:57):
Well I hope she's done.
Done.

Heather (19:00):
And then he started hiding it.
And that's when it became a problem.
Because he was drinking openlybut not hiding it very well.
And then finally when she was like, nomore, 'cause you're a fucking psycho, he,
that's when he had to start hiding it.
That's when it got bad.

Zoe (19:12):
'Cause he obviously can't stop 'cause he is an addict.

Heather (19:14):
And when you start hiding it, that's when it gets
crazy because you have to do anabundance in a short amount of time.
You have to drink really hard.
You have to do cokewhen they're not around.
Then you start doing weird things likeyou drink a lot, like an hour before they
get home and you're like, I'll be fine.

Zoe (19:26):
And you're not.
And you're not.
Uh, stuff like this when you're justfreshly out of a toxic relationship you
don't fully see the full picture yet.
You know, give her a few more months.
Hopefully she stays out ofit and she will see the full
circle of how messed up it was.

Heather (19:44):
The frustrating thing for me, you know, there's a bunch of
things, but Ally sought out James.
She had seen the show.
She knew who he was.
He was a full alcoholic.
He was abusing Kristen Doute.
He spit at her and so she knew,

Zoe (19:57):
She knew what she was getting into.

Heather (19:58):
Kind of like, you never really know, but like, I don't know.

Zoe (20:02):
That doesn't, doesn't mean she deserves that.

Heather (20:03):
Well, what it shows me is that he's really, really good at showing you-

Zoe (20:06):
At manipulating.

Heather (20:07):
And showing you what you wanna see.
And at the beginning I'm sure he's fine.
And, and, and at the beginningof every relationship-

Zoe (20:13):
it's fun to be an alcoholic at the beginning, and

Heather (20:15):
you often are drinking, you're going out, you're like, lubing it up.
You're like having sex.
So you might not notice how muchsomeone is actually drinking
if you're drinking with them.

Zoe (20:23):
How long were they together?

Heather (20:25):
I think like three years.
Oh, wow.
Okay.
And Kristen Doute, this whole timehas been like, he's an abuser.
He's an abuser.
Like, come on.
And so Nick was asking her like, do younow kind of believe Rachel and Kristen?
And she's like, you know,everyone has their own story.
And I'm like, oh, you're protecting him.
And it's so hard to watch.

Zoe (20:42):
I know.
It's, well, it's like when your friendsare stuck in an abusive relationship too.
It's so hard to watch them be stuck in it.
And I feel like that's howI am interpreting this.
It's just like she's just so freshlyout of it that she needs more time to
process what actually happened to herbecause guys are so good at manipulating
when they're abusive and a drunk.

(21:03):
So good at it.
And she she was a victim of that.
And she just needs some more time toprocess what just happened to her.
And I really hope that she doesand stays away from that behavior.
And James, go to rehab.

Heather (21:17):
Holy shit.
And this is the thing we, the way we'retalking about this, I'm so mad at him.
I am.
And I, I do have empathy and I dohave compassion because alcoholism
and addiction is no fucking joke.
And no one wants to be in it.
It doesn't feel good.
The second- and you can't tell anyone.
Like you can't tell.
Oh we always say this like you're,if you don't wanna go get clean, if

(21:39):
you don't wanna go to rehab, or ifyou're not ready, it's not gonna work.
The second you put someone else's lifein danger, the second you hurt somebody
physically or verbally, you gotta go.
The second you bring someone elseinto that bullshit and hurt them.

Zoe (21:54):
But it seems you like he's been doing this for years.
If he did it to Rachel, he did it to Ally.
It's been happening foryears and years and years.
So something else is gonna happento happen to bring him to his knees.
Did you listen to Ed Sheeran's podcast?
Uh, on Call Her Daddy?

Heather (22:07):
No, I didn't.
Was it good?

Zoe (22:09):
Uh, well, he was saying that he's not drinking as much or like
partying as much, and he did admitthat he was drinking every single day
and like partying whatever that means.
He's like, I'm notdrinking every day anymore.
I drink like once aweek, blah, blah, blah.
But I used to drink everysingle day and he admitted that.
He didn't say like he was an alcoholic oran addict or anything, but him admitting

(22:32):
that he was drinking every single day.
This is a telltale sign that he didsomewhat have a problem with it.
And he did admit that he is building abetter relationship to alcohol right now.

Heather (22:41):
Wow.

Zoe (22:43):
Love you, Ed.

Heather (22:44):
Couldn't be me.

Zoe (22:45):
Couldn't be me either.

Heather (22:46):
Do you think that's an addict?

Zoe (22:48):
I think there's different levels to addicts, you know?
I'm a type three addict.
I can't control my drinking.

Heather (22:55):
I've never heard that before.
Is that a real thing that you've heard?
Like

Zoe (22:58):
Yeah, that's what they say in like the meetings.

Heather (22:59):
A type three addict is you just have to be done.

Zoe (23:01):
Yeah.

Heather (23:02):
Okay.
Me too.
Okay.

Zoe (23:04):
I think like there's different levels to it.
Like if you can controlyour drinking good for you.
Couldn't be me, but like if youcan and if you cut it in the
butt right then and there and-

Heather (23:14):
Cut it in the butt?

Zoe (23:16):
If you nip it in the butt, is that the expression?

Heather (23:19):
I think it's nip it in the bud.

Zoe (23:21):
Oh

Heather (23:22):
But cut it in the butt is really fucking funny.
If you can cut, if you can nip itin the bud right there yeah, then,

Zoe (23:29):
Then it's like, good for you.
And that's great, you know?
I wish I could have done that.

Heather (23:34):
If you're actively controlling your drinking and you're like, okay,
I'm only drinking this, you're probablystill thinking about it all day.

Zoe (23:40):
And that's another thing.
And like if Ed's thinking like, oh, Ican't wait till Wednesday when I can go on
a date with my wife and have our bottle ofwine together then that's also a problem.
If you're doing any everything,because like you're excited for
that one thing, that's a problem.
But also, who am I to say?
Because I get excited for mycigarettes every five hours too.

Heather (24:00):
I know.
It's just a really fucking exhaustingthing to like, think about all the time.
This morning I was listeningto Dax Shepherd's podcast.
I just like wake up and immediatelystart listening to podcasts.
Monica Lewinsky's back.
She's back in action.
I fucking love her so much.
And she, I mean, obviouslygo listen to the interview.

(24:23):
It's so good.
But she's 51.
Okay.
She was talking about like loveand relationships and, 'cause she's
just a girl at the end of the day.

Zoe (24:30):
She was on Dax Shepherd's podcast like a year or two ago.

Heather (24:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but now she's back 'cause she has
a, a new thing she's working on.
She has a new podcast.
She said, um, somethingthat broke my heart.
She was like, I've never beenthe love of anyone's life.
And I was like, holy shit.
Like, that's so sad to me.
And I think about it all the time whenbefore we started this podcast and

(24:55):
before when I first started going backto therapy after I got sober, I saw
this girl, this woman on TikTok, whowas like 40, and she was like, I'm 40.
I don't really have any friends.
And I've never been ina romantic relationship.
I've never been in love.
I've never, I don't know, maybe she, Idunno if she was a virgin, but like, I
was like, holy fuck, is that gonna be me?
Like, am I just straight up?

(25:16):
'cause that happens.
It's like, I don't know.
It's like those-

Zoe (25:19):
I like seeing those tiktoks and they're like, I've just, there's one
in my head and this girl's like, Ibelieve in love because I'm traveling
abroad right now, and I haven't talkedto my best friend in two months, but I
know that when I go home, like we're,we're right back where we left off.
And that's like love to me, you know?
And like, love to me isn't evenlike necessarily thinking about

(25:41):
relationships romantically all the time.
Like that is what I cherish the most rightnow in my life is my female friendships.
That's what's mostimportant to me right now.

Heather (25:50):
No, I think it's really good.
I, I do, I feel like I'm inthe era of female friendships
and it's really fucking nice.

Zoe (25:56):
You're sober, you have your girlfriends now.
Like, that's what you should focus on.
And the guys will comein as they do, you know?

Heather (26:04):
And when they do come in, I'm kind of like, you're
not as good as my girls.

Zoe (26:08):
Like, and that's how it should be.
We need to have a highstandard for these men.
And that's how I find-

Heather (26:13):
I mean, I do, I I have high, I don't have five standards for many.
Are you kidding me?
I like, I'm the worst.
But, but we need to, I have very,

Zoe (26:19):
We'll start getting there and I feel like I started to somehow get
there and that's how I found my man.
Did you love how the, they wrapped upthe girlfriend group in White Lotus?
I thought it was nice.

Heather (26:33):
Yeah, I did.

Zoe (26:34):
I like teared up a bit honestly.

Heather (26:36):
I, I did think it was nice and I, I just, that made me really nervous.
That also was another thing whereI was like, okay, you guys are
friends, but you don't communicate.
And like that's a hard one.
And I think that you don'trealize you have to communicate
until there's a conflict.
You are like, our friendship has nobasis of good, solid conversation, but I,

Zoe (26:55):
I did, make me proud of my, myself and my friends.
But like I was gonna say, there's so manyfriends like that probably in the world.
And yeah, it's just like, you do lovethem even though you treat them like shit.
I don't know.
It's like, I liked howthey wrapped that up.

Heather (27:11):
I really don't have this thing anymore.
I used to probably 'cause I was drunkand depressed, but I really don't
have this thing anymore where like, ifsomething good happens to a girlfriend,
I feel immediately evil towards them.
Like, I used to feel so jealousand be like, I would find the
one thing about them that I like.
Oh, this person got this opportunity.
That's like, yeah, but she's ugly.
Like that's, I dunno, just forexample's sake, but like my friend

(27:34):
Paige is moving to New York.
. And when she got that opportunity,I was like, I told her straight up.
I was like, I'm gonna be very jealous.
This might be hard for me.
Um, but I wanna be there for you asyour best friend, but just so you know-

Zoe (27:47):
You recognized what you were feeling and that's great.

Heather (27:50):
But I feel like those girls watching White Lotus, it triggered
me 'cause I was like, Ooh, you guysthink you're best friends, but you're
so insecure that every time one of youis away, you have to talk shit about
each other to like figure out who'sthe . You know, the bully in all of this.
I did not like that.
I don't want friends like that.
I can't.

Zoe (28:08):
I don't want friends like that either but it's just like,
it shows that like, I don't know.
They like make it work somehow.
And they recognized it at the end,like that's what they're doing.
I don't know.

Heather (28:20):
And all friendships come in different sizes.
I think that's alsoimportant to learn too.
It's like some friends arelike your emotional friends.
Some friends are your, you hang outwith them and some of them just start to

Zoe (28:33):
Such a wease away.

Heather (28:34):
I was gonna say wease away too.
And that's not a word.

Zoe (28:38):
It's a Zoe word, okay.

Heather (28:39):
I know, but I was gonna say it too.
I don't know where that was coming from.
So, speaking of not ever being thelove of anybody's life, um, let's
get into, I wanna get into a littlebit, we're gonna go back in time.
We're gonna talk about relationships.

Zoe (28:53):
Finally we talk about the boys.

Heather (28:55):
We're finally getting into it.
Let's do some pre sobriety relationships.

Zoe (28:59):
BS is what I say

Heather (29:02):
Before.
Sobriety.
BSB, Before Sobriety Boys.
Does that even count these relationships?
Pre sobriety?

Zoe (29:09):
I don't really count them that much because I don't know
if I really liked any of them.

Heather (29:14):
Well, what about when you were little, little?

Zoe (29:17):
When I was little, little?
I had crushes.

Heather (29:21):
You did?
I, I actually don't know this about you.
Like I am a very romantic person.
Are you?
Like, when you were a kid, whenyou were like six years old?
Were you like, now I have acrush on someone at school?

Zoe (29:32):
I definitely had crushes, but I was never a lover girl, to be honest.
I never like believed in the, um, fallin love with the first guy, you know?
Love of your life thing.
No, I was never,

Heather (29:43):
Why?

Zoe (29:44):
I don't know why

Heather (29:45):
That's so, like, it's so like neutral and like objective.
How were you objective at a young age?
I don't have that.

Zoe (29:53):
Maybe 'cause I had like multiple crushes even when
I was in elementary school.
Like I could never pick.

Heather (29:58):
That's true.
You're like, we're gonnahave to set a schedule here.
Yeah, yeah, I want all of them.

Zoe (30:04):
I, I probably had a crush on like three boys in elementary school.

Heather (30:08):
Did you have a boyfriend in elementary school?

Zoe (30:10):
No.

Heather (30:11):
Really?
Okay.
I had two boyfriends.

Zoe (30:13):
Oh, okay.

Heather (30:14):
My first boyfriend was Christopher.
I was stealing from him though.
Ooh.
In grade one, actually, actually, Iwas in love with him in kindergarten.
Then we were in grade one together,Mrs. Weisman's class, and she
used to pull people by the ear.
She was a real twat.
Um, don't know why you're teachingkids if you hate them, by the way.

Zoe (30:30):
Yeah, and that's don't like abused kids if you're teaching them.

Heather (30:32):
That's a, that's a fun theme.
That'll come up again, won't it?
If you, we'll talk about that later.
If you don't like kids, don't teach them.
So, when I grew up, I was, I was atan elementary school, public school,
and I was in love with Christopher,and then I was stealing his chits.
We had these things calledchits, which were like little

(30:54):
coupons, like little tickets.
And at the end of the week,you could like trade it in for
like, I don't know, a prize.

Zoe (31:02):
Did you ever get the chits taken away?

Heather (31:05):
No.
And no one ever took my chitsbecause I never got any.
I couldn't read or write.

Zoe (31:13):
So they only gave you a chit if you did good in school?

Heather (31:16):
Yeah and this was in grade one.
So I had already started my, likenot doing well in school streak.
Like I was a C student.
I could write a story though.
I could write a story.
But yeah, I was stealing from Christopherso that I could like get prizes.
And so that was like avery toxic relationship.

Zoe (31:29):
Did did he know that?

Heather (31:31):
No, he didn't know.
He is really, really sweet andI never spoke to him again.
But when I got back to high schooland I went back into the public
stream, I saw him and I was like,oh my God, that's my first love.

Zoe (31:40):
And did he like stay as cute as you remembered?

Heather (31:44):
No.

Zoe (31:44):
No.
They never do.

Heather (31:45):
No, no, no, no.
Well, you can't really beat six years old.
That's the cutest you're ever gonna be.
And then I was in love with Jordan.
Now Jordan came into my lifewhen I was in first grade.
Jordan was adopted.
And that was so fuckingexhilarating to me.
Now, if this was me talking at 30years old, you'd be like, well that
feels like a, a white savior situation.
No.

(32:05):
I just loved the fact thatsomething had happened and Jordan's
parents weren't his parents.
And I just thought that was so cool.
So I wanted to be with him.

Zoe (32:13):
It was interesting and new.
It was like you wanted tosee what that was like.

Heather (32:15):
Well, before I knew about trauma, I was really attracted to trauma.
I still am.
But like even before then, I was like,something must have happened here.
Your parents are not your own.
Tell me.
And so I was in love with him.
We used to hold hands.

Zoe (32:27):
Aw.
That's really sweet.

Heather (32:29):
I know.
Very cute.

Zoe (32:30):
Um, one of my first, um, I don't know if we were ever dating in grade
seven or grade eight, but I think welike had a thing, whatever that meant.
He stole my phone.
Criminal.

Heather (32:42):
What do you mean he stole your phone?

Zoe (32:43):
I mean, like, I think Well, okay.
I'll tell you the whole lore.
Maybe grade seven.
Um, we had this like flirtatious thing.
I lost my phone.
I'm like, where's my phone everybody?
No one knew where my phone was.
And I went home fromschool without my phone.
I didn't have a phone for-

Heather (33:00):
Were you drinking?

Zoe (33:00):
a couple weeks.
No, I wasn't drinking.
And that's the crazy part.
Remember VSCO?

Heather (33:06):
VSCO cam?
Yeah.

Zoe (33:07):
I'm like on my friend's phone 'cause I still, still haven't found my phone.
Maybe a month later I amlike stalking this guy.
And he had a selfie, a mirrorselfie, and the phone was my phone.
So the next day I'm ingrade seven, I confront him.
I'm like, oh, I saw your VSCO.
You have my phone.

Heather (33:27):
You little fuck.

Zoe (33:28):
And I was so angry at him.
Um, and he's like, yeah,like, I'm so sorry.
It was just supposed to be a joke,but then you got really, really upset
and I didn't know how to tell you.
And I'm like, uh, you stole my phone.
And I was so mad, and I don't think Italked to him for the rest of that year
because I'm like, you screwed me over.
Why did you take, that?
Doesn't make any sense.

(33:50):
Don't take what's mine.

Heather (33:51):
You, you tricked me into thinking that you liked
me and then you stole from me.

Zoe (33:55):
No, but he liked me so much that he couldn't like admit that he stole it
because he took it too far, you know?
Anyways, in grade eight, I think helike apologized to me and I was like,
yeah, sorry, I haven't talked to you.
Whatever.
We like made amends in grade eight,I go off to Sarnia for high school.
I come back in grade like nineand we go to the high school

(34:17):
that he went to in Oakville.
And we do molly, and we smoke weed andwe drink, and we end up fucking on the,
um, elementary school playground wherewe went to elementary school together,

Heather (34:28):
Where it all started.

Zoe (34:29):
Where it all started.

Heather (34:29):
Oh.
So that's a fun full circle moment.
I love it.
When you were in high schooland you were starting to date,
Well, I didn't have sex, I guess.

Zoe (34:38):
I didn't really date anyone until the end of high school.

Heather (34:40):
Okay.
What were you, but you werehaving crushes on people dating?
Yeah, dating at the end of high school.
What were you looking for from boys?

Zoe (34:45):
I was looking for them to supply me alcohol and weed.

Heather (34:48):
Okay.
That's what I thought you were gonna say.
I was looking for someone to like me.
That's it.

Zoe (34:54):
I wasn't looking for that at all.
I was always just looking forlike a drinking buddy or like
someone to like, keep me fucked up.

Heather (35:00):
Did you, did boys just like you were, were you like, was it easy?
Like did you have a-

Zoe (35:06):
Not necessarily because I was, I wasn't known when I
went to high school in Sarnia.
I was like the one from out oftown that no one really knew.
Everyone in Sarnia grew up together.
And so everyone kneweverybody except for me.
So I was kinda like the odd one out.

Heather (35:23):
When I went to high school, I was coming from private school.
So similar, but the differences that,like I knew a lot of those people
already from like four years ago.
From like grade three.
So that was a really fucking weirdthing to come back in and I actually
have no friends and they know me andthey know I don't have any friends.
That was really fun.
I was in love with everybody though.
I was always in love with a boy.
Any anything like I

Zoe (35:43):
Did it change like every year?
Did the boy change every year?

Heather (35:46):
Every, every year?
Every month.
I was like new boy.

Zoe (35:49):
And what did you like have fantasies about them and like make up storylines
that they were like, your boyfriend?

Heather (35:54):
Oh my God.
I was gonna marry everysingle one of these dumb kids.
I just, and I never spoketo any of them, by the way.
Like nobody, I was weird, and I've saidthis before, but I would be on MSN just
professing my love to these boys andnever speaking to them like I would be.

Zoe (36:10):
You would message them?

Heather (36:11):
Yeah.

Zoe (36:12):
You would say, Hey, I like you.

Heather (36:13):
Well, we would just be like messaging on MSN all the time and
you'd be like, love you, love you.
L-U-V-L-U-V two, you know, Uhhuhand like that was with everybody.
I had boyfriends on MSN.
Never spoke to them in person.

Zoe (36:25):
Crazy.

Heather (36:26):
Were you having MSN relationships?

Zoe (36:28):
I was not having relationships.
I was crushing on anybody who gave meattention and that attention looked
like giving me alcohol and weed andlike hanging out with me like that.

Heather (36:39):
Was that feeling of them liking you, consuming to you at all?
Like were you thinking aboutit in your bed at night?

Zoe (36:45):
I don't know.
I was thinking, I was just likethinking about like getting fucked
up with them and like having sex.
Like I like to the act.
The act, the physical act instead of likethe emotional love, whatever that is.

Heather (36:57):
Are you still like that?

Zoe (36:59):
I think so.

Heather (37:00):
Interesting.

Zoe (37:00):
We're trying to break me down a little bit guys.
We're trying to like.
Make me a little bit more emotional.

Heather (37:07):
It's an, it's so interesting to me.
The first time you hadsex, were you drinking?

Zoe (37:10):
I wasn't drunk.
I was super duper high though.

Heather (37:15):
On weed?

Zoe (37:15):
Yes.

Heather (37:16):
Okay.
How was it?

Zoe (37:18):
It was both of our first times.
It was like, I don't know.
I was very stoned.
He was very stoned.
It wasn't great.
It was mid, I think.

Heather (37:26):
You weren't scared?

Zoe (37:28):
No, I just wanted it to be over with because all of the cool kids
in my grade and grade nine in highschool were just talking about like
having sex and wanting to have sexand blah, blah, blah, and I was like-

Heather (37:39):
In grade nine?
God, you're so fucking cool about shit.

Zoe (37:42):
I don't, I think it's like cool.
I think it's just like I was kind of,I am a little bit blocked off by love.

Heather (37:50):
Why?

Zoe (37:51):
I don't know.
Maybe.
'cause my parents were never in love.

Heather (37:54):
You don't think they're, you don't think they were in love?

Zoe (37:56):
They never showed it to me.
They, uh, they never really kissed.
They, I've seen them kiss once.

Heather (38:02):
My parents definitely kissed.
Like, I feel like they kissed everyday when he got home from work.
I feel like it was like,hi, hi, muah, muah.
But I was about to say, but Inever saw a passionate kiss.
That would be insane.
To watch your parents passionately kiss.

Zoe (38:16):
I think I wanna passionately kiss in front of my kids.

Heather (38:19):
You want to?

Zoe (38:19):
I do.
Is that weird?

Heather (38:22):
No, I don't think it's weird.

Zoe (38:23):
I think it's just like you should show your kids love.
I think, and maybe that's why I neverreally like, knew what love was.
And understood it really.
And I just liked the physical partof it and liked the being fucked up
with someone else and had that comfortin being fucked up with someone.

Heather (38:38):
It's interesting.

Zoe (38:40):
That was love to me, like being fucked up with a significant
other and just hanging out.

Heather (38:44):
Did that feel like love?

Zoe (38:45):
I think so.

Heather (38:46):
Okay.
So it wasn't like something that he didfor you or like a way he made you feel?
It was like in those moments oflike fucking, and drugs and shit.
You're like, this is comfy.
This is love.

Zoe (38:55):
I think so.

Heather (38:56):
Wow.
This is so interesting.

Zoe (39:03):
Your first boyfriend.

Heather (39:05):
My first boyfriend, were we boyfriend and girlfriend?
I don't know, but thiskid I was in love with.
In eighth grade I was stillat a private school, had a-

Zoe (39:15):
Did you kiss him?

Heather (39:15):
No.

Zoe (39:16):
Okay.
Did you hold his hand?

Heather (39:17):
No.

Zoe (39:18):
Whoa.

Heather (39:18):
Nothing.
Nothing, nothing.
But I met Jake.
Let's call him Jake.
Jake.
I met Jake at.
A fair at the fairgrounds.
I know.

Zoe (39:27):
Oh, I love that.
Little Notebook.

Heather (39:29):
My friend actually liked him and so I was like hanging
out with his other friend.
Let's call him Will.
That's his real name.
And um, we were going on like thegrinder together, so we were together.
But then I, the other guy,Jake, messaged me after and was
like, Hey, you're really cute.
And I was like, oh, he is in love withme and this is gonna be my husband.
And then we had like aFacebook relationship.

(39:51):
We were married on Facebook at one point.
MSN, I love you so much.
Then one time we hung out withhis friend and my dance friend.
It was like the dancersand the hockey guys.
We hung out at the ODR, theoutdoor rink, and I didn't speak
one word to him the whole time.

Zoe (40:07):
But you guys were madly in love?

Heather (40:08):
Yes.
And then we went back to my friend'shouse and we watched a movie.
I didn't speak to him once.
Oh, I was so weird.
I was so awkward.
Awkward,

Zoe (40:14):
So scared, so weird.

Heather (40:15):
Terrified.
I'd never even really touched a boy andI knew that he had been like fingering,
so that was never gonna happen with me.
I was never gonna leta boy touch my vagina.
Are you fucking kidding?
That's insane.
And then I was like really worried thatthat's how relationships were gonna go.
Like I would have good rapport with themonline and then we'd meet each other.
And then, so I started drinking becauseit was easier to like date, but not yet.

Zoe (40:37):
So you were too online.
You were too online when youwere young and you didn't
know how to act in real life.

Heather (40:43):
No, and I also didn't have time 'cause I was so fucking busy.
I was like at school all day and thendance till 10:00 PM so I didn't have
any friends and except for dance.
Was peer pressure a big thing foryou in terms of like who you were
dating or like hooking up with?
Like would you only do it if likeyour friend said it was cool or like,

Zoe (41:01):
I think so.
I think like that's what made melike the peer pressure, I was peer
pressured for sure to like have sexbecause everyone said that was cool.
So that's why I was like,okay, like let's do it.
Let's have sex.
Wow.
And then, yeah, like I slept withlike a few people throughout high
school and didn't fall in love withhim, but they also like, didn't

(41:22):
really fall in love with me either.
Um, but I just like did itbecause they were steamed hot.
And my friends thought it would becool for me to like hook up with them.

Heather (41:34):
Were your friends also having sex?

Zoe (41:35):
Yes.

Heather (41:36):
Okay.

Zoe (41:37):
A hookup in high school even was like smoke weed with them, drink with
them, hook up, you know, it wasn't sober.

Heather (41:44):
And then was the entire school talking about it the next day?
Because that's how my school was.

Zoe (41:49):
Um, yes and no.
I don't know.
'cause I don't know if I really like-

Heather (41:55):
gave a fuck?

Zoe (41:55):
Gave a fuck because I was like so involved with like my
addiction already, you know?

Heather (42:00):
Wow.
Wow.

Zoe (42:03):
Like I, in gym class, I was like smoking weed in the, like, where
they kept the balls in the gym court.
Like I, me and this kid namedMoose, his nickname was Moose.
So everyone will know that, like,yeah, we would just smoke weed
together in like the gym hallway thing.

Heather (42:22):
Such a bad girl.

Zoe (42:24):
And then we'd like run away.

Heather (42:26):
Was there anybody in your school that you were like in love with though?
Like was there a, an untouchable,was there somebody ever that
you were like, I'm in love withthat person, but you never,

Zoe (42:35):
Honestly, I really thought that the guy ended up dating when I went back to
Sarnia for Covid, I thought he was so hot.
I mean, he was an alcoholic.
He, I mean, he's cute.
Yes.

Heather (42:48):
Who cares?

Zoe (42:48):
Who cares?
He was, he provided me booze.
He was cute.
Well, like, these guys would have like asesh tent in their backyard that we would
all just like hang out when, for hours andlike just drink and smoke weed with them.

Heather (43:00):
Were you the only girl?

Zoe (43:02):
No, me and my, like I had different, I had like a couple different
groups of friends in high school.
Um, but there was always like atleast two other girls with me.

Heather (43:10):
Interesting.
Wow.
I would've never beeninvited to those hangouts.
You would've been like, she's a baby.
Wow.

Zoe (43:17):
People would like puke because they were so fucked up and, and then
like make out and like we'd hear themfucking like, you know, it would just-

Heather (43:25):
In high school?

Zoe (43:25):
Yeah.

Heather (43:26):
I wanted to be one of the boys always because I wasn't
really fitting in with the girls.
And that's also because I was notthat mature, so that was hard for me.

Zoe (43:35):
No, like me fitting in with the girls looked like in
high school, us all drinking.
Us all smoking weed and then we all hada knife to our legs or, and, or wrists.
Like we all had like acutting circle at one point.
I did it once or twice and I waslike, Hey, this isn't for me and
then just chugged a bottle of wine.

Heather (43:57):
This is for me.

Zoe (43:58):
This is for me.
So I did end up having a highschool boyfriend at the end.

Heather (44:03):
Who?

Zoe (44:04):
His name will not be named, he.
It was like two years older than me.
He lived on the worst street ofSarnia, like the poorest neighborhood
In Sarnia with his mother, likeliving on welfare with his mother
and his like five siblings.
And I only was dating him becausehe provided me that house.

(44:28):
I could smoke weed inside that house.
In the other houses, likewe had to hide it more.
But in that house, his momreally didn't give a shit.
My mom at one point found out thatI was smoking weed and like made
me piss test to have my car back.
I asked his mother to pee in ababy bottle for me to bring home

(44:48):
for my mother, and she did it.
Like this mother was crazy.

Heather (44:52):
Holy fuck.
Would you do that for your kids friend?

Zoe (44:58):
For my kid's friend?
No.
No, I don't think so.
That's just not right.

Heather (45:02):
It would have to be such a specific situation where like, I knew that
kid was gonna get like beat or something.
But no.

Zoe (45:08):
No.

Heather (45:09):
That's crazy.
But that's also like,

Zoe (45:12):
I don't, I don't know, I was just like, I, in, in 12th grade, I was already
like four years into my addiction.
Right.
So I was like bad, bad.
Like I was already down bad.
Um, I was doing whatever I needed to,to keep drinking and or smoking weed.
And that meant asking myboyfriend's mom to pee in a cup
for me so I could have my car.

Heather (45:31):
Learning these survival skills so early.
It's crazy.
Did um, I was gonna ask you when youfirst started talking about him being
like, he lived on welfare, he hadall these fucking siblings in my head
I was like, did you wanna save him?

Zoe (45:43):
Yeah.

Heather (45:43):
But then you did.

Zoe (45:44):
I think so.

Heather (45:45):
Okay.
'cause I, I was wondering what wasmore of a priority, like that's
where you could go to drink.

Zoe (45:49):
I think it was both.

Heather (45:51):
Being someone that you, being a person that can save someone else did you
like having men put you on a pedestal?

Zoe (45:59):
I don't know about the pedestal thing, but I also know that I think
I liked him because like him andhis mom had such a good relationship
and they like had so much love, eventhough they lived in this shit ass
house and I don't think I had that atall in high school because my parents
were hating me because I was a drunk.

Heather (46:16):
Wow.

Zoe (46:17):
Um, so I think that's another reason why I liked him.

Heather (46:20):
It must have felt weird to, to be like, if I did
this at home, I get yelled at.
But when we do it here thislooks like love to me.
And so why?

Zoe (46:31):
Yeah.

Heather (46:32):
You know?,

Zoe (46:32):
Man, I feel like I'm in therapy right now.
I've never really talkedthis deep about that before.

Heather (46:36):
Well, it's interesting.
It's super interesting andI, I, I feel like we flock to
people who either like make us.
Well, we flock to people who makeus feel better about ourselves.

Zoe (46:48):
Yeah.

Heather (46:48):
We do.
And like, you know, you cango there and like feel free.
But it is confusing because now you knowthat his mom was probably quite wrong
in that and yours was right regardlessof how anyone went about anything.
But yeah, it's kind of a nice setup togo and not no one, no one gives a fuck.

Zoe (47:09):
Because like at that point, I don't think I was spending like any
time at home, I was just spendingall my time at his house because I
was free to do whatever I wanted.
And I think like that was justme rebelling against my parents.
That was me like going somewhere.
That allowed me to be analcoholic and an addict.
I think back on that and I'mlike, oh my God, that's insane.

(47:31):
Like this guy was, not a good guy at all.

Heather (47:36):
But you were also a kid.

Zoe (47:37):
I was also 16 years old.

Heather (47:39):
You're a child.

Zoe (47:40):
Yeah,

Heather (47:41):
I know.
I always forget you have a late birthday,so you came here when you were 17.
Like that's young.

Zoe (47:44):
I came here when I was 17.

Heather (47:45):
It's really young.
My whole life I've changed my life.
I've made decisions based onboys and what they were doing and
I've fucked up my life to do so.
Uh, when I went to high school in ninthgrade, I decided to go to the public
high school when I had also auditionedfor the Arts High school um, that all
of like my favorite dancers went to.

Zoe (48:06):
Right.

Heather (48:06):
And I was like, yeah, I'm gonna do that.
And then I met that fucking kid thatJake, right in eighth grade we met.
We met in eighth grade and I waslike, I got into the arts school
and I was like, I just wanna go topublic school and be a normal kid.

Zoe (48:20):
Oh, wow.
Oh my God.
I've never went there for him.

Heather (48:22):
Literally have never said that out loud.
And I'm, wow.
Holy shit.
That feels so weird to say.
'cause I, I really, that was my entirehigh school where my life would've been
different if I, I mean, I don't know.
Ariane went to that school and thenwe also both ended up in Boston
together so maybe, but no, it's-

Zoe (48:38):
Everything happens for a reason.
And I'm not saying that it's bad to dothat, but like, yeah, a lot of, a lot
of young girls do change their wholetrajectory for a man, I think actually.
And that's, and that'sso normal, you know?

Heather (48:51):
But I think it's not good.
It's not good sitting here now.
I've done it.
I like gave up.
I gave up my life in New York becauseI was in such a toxic, codependent
relationship, long distance.
And New York just wasn't fitting into it.
And so I was like, yeah,okay, I'll fucking leave.
And like I did, and it ruinedmy life for a long time.

(49:12):
Then I started drinking real fuckinghard 'cause I lost everything.
And that was because I wanted to like,make him happy and be closer to him and
it's like I can never, ever, ever putsomeone else's happiness before mine.

Zoe (49:26):
No.

Heather (49:26):
Or someone else's wants or needs.
Even if it's a relationship,it's like, fuck that.

Zoe (49:33):
And now we know that 'cause we're sober.

Heather (49:36):
But I almost, I almost left rehab early than I was meant to because
I was dating somebody at the time.
We'll get into that.
But like I, and then I remember inrehab, I was like, no, you're not gonna
leave early just so you can go see him.
This is a thing that you're doing for you.
If he's not there when you leave,if you like need extra time here

(49:56):
and he's gone, then he's gone.

Zoe (49:58):
And you only could realize that because you had some
brain cells reforming again.

Heather (50:02):
And not to fucking mention, I've ruined my life
over boys my whole fucking life.
Like, I was a very talented dancerand I was like, just ready to
give it up for like a fairytalelife I had planned in my head.
And it just like, it dodon't, it doesn't do that.
It doesn't work like that.
Like make yourself happy.
First, prioritize yourself and thenwhen you're happy, then you can

(50:24):
invite other happiness into your life.

Zoe (50:26):
I need a little bit of like your love energy because like, I'm so like not love.
It's like it's so new to me, you know?

Heather (50:36):
I know.
It's so weird.
Like, are you, um,

Zoe (50:38):
And you need more of like my don't care about at the middle.

Heather (50:42):
I do.
I really, really do.

Zoe (50:45):
And I need to like care about them a little bit more.
I do care about 'em.
It's just like, it's so new that-

Heather (50:51):
You're also so independent.

Zoe (50:53):
I'm too independent almost and it's like-

Heather (50:54):
I don't, I don't know about too.
You're just so good at like doingyour life and like doing what you
need to do and being a good friend.
Like you, you've gotyour thing figured out.
It's kind of like, I don't needto figure, like just jump in.

Zoe (51:08):
I didn't realize that you chose such big life decisions for boys.

Heather (51:12):
I dunno what it is.
It's like when I was in highschool, nobody liked me.
. And I was getting bullied by the boys.
I didn't know what to do.
And then I went to college and I waslike, this is where you meet your husband
or your partner, whatever the fuck.
And.
At that time I was asstraight as could get.
And I was like, all the men here aregay, so that's not gonna happen for me.

(51:35):
And then I just never,it never happened for me.
I was a virgin forever.
And it just like never happened.
And I was like, oh, I'm not, I'm notgood enough for any of these people.
I'm never gonna be enough.
And then, so I just-

Zoe (51:51):
So when finally someone liked you, you were like clung onto that.

Heather (51:55):
And I was like, if this person loves me, this is the one.
And it's a fluke.
And so I have to do everythingin my power to keep him, and that
means sacrificing my whole life.

Zoe (52:04):
Interesting.

Heather (52:04):
And then you gotta say, if you've sacrificed everything about yourself,
why do they even like you anymore?
Right.
He didn't, it was just a toxic,abusive, controlling thing.
You couldn't have liked me.
I had literally nothing anymore.
I was like done.
And all I was doing was like kissingthe ground he fucking walked on.
Bullshit.
I took him to the doctor because hehad something, a rash on his penis

(52:27):
and he told me that he cheated on meand 'cause he was so fucking nervous
that he had a rash on his penis andhe didn't really speak English, so I
helped, I went to the doctor with him.

Zoe (52:34):
This is the one from Guatemala?

Heather (52:35):
Yes.
Alcohol wasn't really in my datingrelationships until my Guatemalan
boyfriend and then I remember thatwhen we were drinking a lot, but it was
also like wonderlust and it was like,we're in Guatemala and like nothing
can happen and this relationship sucks,but like we're drinking and we're
partying and we're dancing and it's,

Zoe (52:56):
We're acting like everything's okay.

Heather (52:58):
I also like would do a thing where I was like, oh well he is, you
know, Guatemalan and he's just like that.
And when he was like mean to me andI'm like, oh, it's a different culture.
That's a crazy.

Zoe (53:08):
Would he only be mean to you when he was drinking or like all the time?

Heather (53:11):
He was great.
When we were together.
It was when we were, itwas when we were apart.
When we would be texting, likewhen we were long distance.
I was in Boston or New York.
It was horrible.
He would just like accuse me ofcheating on him all the time.
When he knew that he was theonly boy I'd ever had sex with.
I went to dance school and he was hangingout with my gay male friends in New York

(53:32):
in the middle of the day getting coffeeand he accused me of fucking them all.
And anytime I would be like,oh yeah, my friend, he's gay.
Oh, all of your friends are gay?
All of my friends are gay.
I'm a dancer.
You dick.
But it was very, it was all jealousy.
It was so much manipulation.
It was so much breaking up with meall the time, telling me I was a slut.
Telling me,

Zoe (53:50):
God exhausting,

Heather (53:51):
Exhausting.

Zoe (53:52):
Exhausting.
I think the pattern with my boyfriend'sBS was they would like me because I
was cool and drunk and then like sixmonths into the relationship I would
keep getting too drunk and they didn'tlike me as much anymore because I, I

(54:12):
was drinking so much and then I couldfeel them pull back and then I got like,
so crazy and would message 'em all thetime and show up at their house and
be like, why do you love me anymore?

Heather (54:21):
Oh no.

Zoe (54:21):
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Heather (54:22):
Oh no.

Zoe (54:22):
And that's how it would end.

Heather (54:24):
Oh, fucking hell.
Okay.
So you were like ajealous and jealous girl.

Zoe (54:29):
'Cause they didn't love me anymore because of my drinking.
I'm like, this is whyI thought we hung out.
Because of my drinking.

Heather (54:37):
That's a confusing one.
When you start dating somebody.
My ex, after the Guatemalan, wemet at Aritzia and when we started
dating we were drinking a lot.
We were gonna the wine rack andgetting like a big bottle of wine.
And then like drinking at his houseor like going out for dinner, get
drinking there and then going home,drinking, having sex, whatever.
And like the first time I sleptat his house, I was, I got there

(54:58):
wasted because I was at a Hanukkahparty and got really drunk and
then got dropped off at his house.

Zoe (55:04):
Interesting.

Heather (55:05):
And and I was so drunk, but we he didn't care
at that time for some reason.
He didn't really know me, I guess.
And he wasn't grossed out by that.
I think he was just like,oh, someone likes me.
And then I remember one day wewere at his house and I was like,
do you wanna go get some wine?
And he's like, I just don'tthink I wanna drink tonight.
I don't really drink this much.

Zoe (55:23):
Do you think he saw how you were acting and was like,
okay, I can't act like that?

Heather (55:29):
I think in the beginning he was a little naive to stuff.
And I think that that'swhy it worked for a while.
No, I think genuinely he justwas like, I can't function if
I'm drinking every single night.
And didn't realize that Ineeded to drink every night.
Because by that time I wasalready drinking every day.
Like when I worked at Aritzia,I was leaving work, I would come
home and get a bottle of wine.

(55:50):
So I was drinking every dayalready, but it was still tame.
Like, so I really bamboozled him afterlike three months he moved in with me
and then I think he was like, oh fuck,

Zoe (56:00):
What did I do?

Heather (56:01):
This bitch is drinking hard after spin class.
With him, that was my like bigrelationship where I realized like,
okay, like the drinking is bad butI'm not gonna do anything about it.
I was choosing alcoholover him all the time.
He would ask me to stop,he would ask me to go out.
Hang out with his family.

(56:22):
And I would just get so fucked up.
I remember even during Covid, we wouldplay these like family party online games.
I don't know, with his family.
He has 1000 family members, he'sFilipino and they love playing games
and I would just be on there drinkinghard and like going into the bathroom
and drinking at like 9:00 AM 'cause Iwas like, I can't play this game with
your fucking family full family ifI'm sober, I don't wanna play games.

(56:46):
But that was really hard for him.
Really hard.
And I just was like, I know I feelbad, but I'm choosing alcohol over you.
And that was like thedemise of our relationship.
It just was.

Zoe (56:58):
I think all of my boyfriends asked me to stop and I didn't.
I couldn't.

Heather (57:07):
Were they stopping?

Zoe (57:10):
No, I first year boyfriend, he was kind of like, I think he made the
toxicity like normal for me becauselike he would say all the time like, oh,
I'm just gonna go home and kill myself.
And I'm like, wait, what?
Um, he started like, he made that seemto be like an okay statement to say all

(57:34):
the time and to use that against me.
And then I started touse that against him.

Heather (57:38):
Okay.
Okay.
And like a, now if youleave me, I'll kill myself.

Zoe (57:41):
Yeah, exactly.

Heather (57:42):
Classic.

Zoe (57:43):
And then I think that projected me to like use that against my
other relationships and against him.

Heather (57:51):
I don't remember saying it, but I know in my heart I used to text it.
I'm gonna fucking kill myself.
I mean, it does feel like deathwhen someone breaks up with you.
It literally feels like death.
To me anyway.
Horrible.
Have you ever had any bad breakups?

Zoe (58:07):
I mean, like, I thought they were like all bad at the,
when they happened, I guess.

Heather (58:11):
Like you cried?

Zoe (58:12):
Yeah.

Heather (58:12):
Okay.
Okay.
I've just never seen an ounceof you crying, so I just
don't believe that you did.

Zoe (58:16):
But like, I was like a hysterical drunk crying.
You know, like was it a performance?
Maybe a bit.
'cause I was a drunk.
I don't know.
Did I actually careabout any of these men?
I don't know.
I was just a drunk.

Heather (58:28):
Oh my God, you're so right.
The performances that I wouldput on to like get men to stay-

Zoe (58:33):
Exactly.

Heather (58:33):
Is nuts.

Zoe (58:35):
And I don't think I wanted them to stay as a person.
I just wanted the company.
I didn't like them.
I liked the company ofa man drinking with me

Heather (58:45):
And thinking I'm pretty, honestly.
I didn't wanna do that shit by myself.
It was so nice.
But I, I never really found agood drinking buddy in any man.
Which is a bummer.

Zoe (58:56):
Well, my last one was like, the best probably 'cause
we would get fucked up together

Heather (59:01):
Is that the last one before rehab?

Zoe (59:02):
Yeah.

Heather (59:02):
Okay.
Tell me about him.

Zoe (59:04):
Well, he's the ex footballer.

Heather (59:05):
Oh, this one.
Okay.
And then when did you guys break up?

Zoe (59:09):
We broke up probably like maybe a year before I went to rehab, but we
were still sleeping with each other,like on and off while we were broken up.
It was very toxic.

Heather (59:21):
Have you texted him since rehab?

Zoe (59:22):
Yep.

Heather (59:23):
Whoa.
And?

Zoe (59:24):
We like texted a lot right after rehab.
He came over to my housethe summer after rehab.
So I was like, what?
Eight months sober.
And he came over, he was drinkingthroughout the whole time.
I obviously wanted to have sex 24/7because I'm sober and I'm a little freak.

(59:46):
He could only have sex twicebecause he's a drunk and an addict.
He told, he promised me that he wasn'tgonna do coke while he stayed with me.
He, he did coke while I was at workand lied to me about it and told me,

Heather (59:57):
Yeah, we can, we can tell.
'cause your dick doesn't get hard.

Zoe (59:59):
Literally like, no, but like, I can't believe I invited
him to my house when I was sober.
Like, that's what I mean.
Like I have so muchgrowth even in sobriety.
Like I can't imagine me invitinghim ever to my house ever again.
But no.
Like, he still willSnapchat me out of the blue,

Heather (01:00:19):
That's 'cause when you get sober, you like, learn a lot of things, but
your self worth has to catch up, right?

Zoe (01:00:25):
That's so true.

Heather (01:00:26):
It's a slow process.
You can like-

Zoe (01:00:28):
Well, and I think I wanted to prove to him like, Hey, I'm
normal now if you want, and Iwanna see you see that I'm normal.
And also, like I'd said, I, I did myresearch and I fucked everyone who I slept
with before sobriety, after sobriety.
I had to see how they were.

Heather (01:00:44):
I love that.
And how was it?

Zoe (01:00:47):
The sex?
Mid.

Heather (01:00:49):
Mid.
God damnit.
Before I went to rehab, I was datingthis guy and I genuinely forget about
this relationship all the time.
And that's not because of him.
I was so drunk.
He lived in Ottawa.
He was my friend's brother-in-law.

(01:01:10):
We met on New Year's.
I was so depressed.
It was the New Year's before,so the new, that was January.
And then in March I went to rehab.
So January to March we were dating.
And I was like, I visited him in Ottawa.
We were fucked the whole time.
I liked him a lot, but I think Iliked that he liked me and I think I
liked that he didn't really get howbig of a piece of fucking shit I was.

Zoe (01:01:34):
Because it was new.

Heather (01:01:35):
It was new.

Zoe (01:01:36):
You could lie to him.

Heather (01:01:37):
And he's also what, not a judgmental person.
He is a very kind, very sweet person.
Didn't see how fucking drunk I was though.
And I was like drinking threebottles of wine a night at his house.
And like smoking weed.
And he was like surprised whenI said I had to go to rehab.
I was like, okay.

Zoe (01:01:53):
That's crazy.
Like some people just likedon't see it, I guess.

Heather (01:01:59):
I think people sometimes don't wanna see it.

Zoe (01:02:02):
That's also true.

Heather (01:02:03):
But it is disgusting.
What I was doing.
Oh, so it, it's weird to me likeyou start with a new girlfriend
and she comes to visit you andshe's laid out drunk all the time.
Mind you, I was drunk, so I washaving a lot of sex with him.

Zoe (01:02:14):
So, and that's all he cared about probably.

Heather (01:02:17):
I mean, I think he's like a pretty romantic person and he did
really like me, but I just, and I dofeel bad about that because I went to
rehab and he was my boyfriend, I guess,and we were talking all the time.
But then I met someone else.
But that's okay.
But it was a weird one.
It's like we never shouldhave been together.
I was drunk the whole time.

(01:02:37):
We had nothing in common really.

Zoe (01:02:39):
Exactly.
It just like happened upon you.
I don't think you chosehim to be your boyfriend.

Heather (01:02:45):
Well, I, he asked me to be his girlfriend when I
was wasted, and I said, yeah,

Zoe (01:02:48):
Exactly.
I don't think that counts.

Heather (01:02:50):
No, it doesn't really count.
Mind you, he was so lovely.
So I got lucky that he waslike a really a good guy.
Really nice.
But we had nothing in common.
He was never gonna come to the city.
He was never gonna, wejust were so different, but

Zoe (01:03:03):
Going into rehab, I was single.

Heather (01:03:05):
You were?

Zoe (01:03:05):
Yeah.

Heather (01:03:06):
But you had boys in the-

Zoe (01:03:10):
I had boys in the roster.

Heather (01:03:11):
Did you have to tell anyone, any other roster you were going?

Zoe (01:03:15):
I don't think they cared about me that much.

Heather (01:03:17):
But you also didn't have your phone in rehab.
I keep thinking about that.

Zoe (01:03:20):
No, I didn't have my phone in rehab, so I think like, I just like
went ghost to a lot of the guys thatI was seeing before rehab, before bs.
Bs.
I just like everyone that I was talkingto fell off the roster really because
I wasn't, I didn't have my phone.

Heather (01:03:38):
I didn't have a roster.
I was just on hinge all the time.
And there's only one person that I'mstill friends with and it's that guy
that came over here the other night.
Which good, because all the other guys,I just don't, I don't even know them.
One time I went over to someone'sh Oh God, I'm sorry mom.
I went over to someone's house, justI was on hinge, super drunk, and I was

(01:04:00):
like, do you want me to, do you wantme to come over and suck your dick?
Holy shit.

Zoe (01:04:05):
No.
I've had that experienceat least 10 times.

Heather (01:04:08):
It's crazy.

Zoe (01:04:09):
It's, it's what we did like.

Heather (01:04:10):
Yes.
It's what we did.

Zoe (01:04:11):
I definitely equate sex to love but like, I don't need it.
Like, I like to feel that for a second andthen I like, I wanna step back, you know?

Heather (01:04:24):
From the love of it?

Zoe (01:04:25):
From the love of it.
Like I like to have itand then like leave it.
If that makes sense.

Heather (01:04:28):
Yeah, it, it does.
I just wonder why.

Zoe (01:04:31):
I guess I'm like just too afraid of it for some reason.

Heather (01:04:35):
Does it scare you?

Zoe (01:04:37):
I guess I'm really scared to get hurt.

Heather (01:04:39):
To get hurt?
That is fucking terrifying.
You don't seem like the kind ofperson that's scared to get hurt.

Zoe (01:04:43):
I am though.
And maybe that's like why I likewant to be in an open relationship
because then they can never cheaton me and I can never get hurt.

Heather (01:04:51):
It's like how do I keep myself feeling good and feeling
safe and like not alone ever?
Like if I'm in an open, there'sother people that care about me.
I would love to be inan open relationship.
I think I just, I would reallyhave to get over some hurdles.

Zoe (01:05:04):
I think that you are a lover girl though.

Heather (01:05:06):
Holy shit.
I know.

Zoe (01:05:08):
And it's fine.
Like I need some of that, like I said,like I want to be more like giving
and like more receiving to love.

Heather (01:05:21):
Yeah, but it doesn't just happen.
You can't just like make that switch.
It's like a feeling in your body.
You have to be more open,open to it or like feel safe.
And maybe that's what it is.
Maybe it just like, it takes you alittle longer with men to feel not
physically safe but emotionally safe.
It's a lot.
Also, 'cause you're sexis like, you like it.

(01:05:41):
You're like, I'm down for it.
And you know how to takecare of yourself in that way.
Love is different.
It's like in someone else'shands how your emotions are.

Zoe (01:05:49):
That's it.
I don't, that scares me.

Heather (01:05:50):
It's fucking terrifying.
When you get into a relationship,are you thinking about the future?
Like, are you thinking about like,

Zoe (01:05:55):
I'm trying not to right now.

Heather (01:05:57):
Okay.
Like, do you like, does thatI'm not like the specific one.
But like, let's say when you firststarted talking to this guy were
you like, oh, like down the lineand like, future and kids and like,

Zoe (01:06:07):
No.

Heather (01:06:07):
You don't do that?

Zoe (01:06:08):
No.

Heather (01:06:08):
You don't future trip?
No.
Whoa.
You know

Zoe (01:06:12):
that I don't Future trip babe.

Heather (01:06:13):
I know, but it's so, it's like part of me.
I can't meet anybody and not future trip.
Like every single anyone I'mon hinge with, I look at them
and I'm like, I wonder what ourfaces would look like together.
Like I'm a freak like that.
And you don't do that?

Zoe (01:06:31):
No.

Heather (01:06:31):
Wow.
I mean, I, I, that's nice.

Zoe (01:06:33):
I try not to like, and the more that you start dating guys, the
more I hope, like, I think that thiswill not be a thing in your life.

Heather (01:06:45):
Sober dating is hard.

Zoe (01:06:46):
Sober dating is hard.

Heather (01:06:48):
It's hard.
I also don't know what I'm looking for.
I don't know if I'mlooking for something that,

Zoe (01:06:51):
And you don't need to know what you're looking for.
This is why you're gonna be dating guysto figure out what you want to figure out.
What type of guys do you like?
To figure out what you like in bed tofigure out what what you want in a man.
Or a woman.

Heather (01:07:08):
When I was drinking.
I was looking for love.
For sure.
I know I was, even though I knew I wasnot in a place where I could get it.

Zoe (01:07:16):
Do you think that they would save you from your drinking?

Heather (01:07:20):
I was never looking to be saved from my drinking.
I was-

Zoe (01:07:22):
Then why were you looking for love?

Heather (01:07:24):
Because I wanted to be loved and I just, I knew I wasn't
going to get love because of likehow I was and the way I looked and
like all the drinking I was doing.
But I, I needed to feelsome semblance of love.
Like I told you, I used to like tell themto tell me they love me while they were
fucking me because I needed to feel it.

(01:07:45):
I just didn't think Iwas ever gonna get it.
I was very fucking sad.
That's like why I was drinking.
I was so sad all the time.
So it was nice.
It was nice to like be usefulfor somebody, and then I would
hope that they would fall inlove with me and they never did.

Zoe (01:08:01):
Well, like RuPaul says, you can't love yourself-

Heather (01:08:04):
How the hell you gonna love somebody else?

Zoe (01:08:07):
Period.

Heather (01:08:07):
Well, I feel like that was it.

Zoe (01:08:09):
I think so too.

Heather (01:08:10):
BS boys.

Zoe (01:08:11):
BS boys.

Heather (01:08:13):
This is exciting.
'cause then next week we're gonna talkabout post Sobriety Boys, which is

Zoe (01:08:19):
PS.

Heather (01:08:20):
Which is so exciting.
I have one that I guess I can't,well no, I can talk about him.
Yeah, I just can't talkabout the whole situation.

Zoe (01:08:26):
The specifics of it.
Yeah, I'll talk about them all.
Beware.

Heather (01:08:30):
And I'll have a new one to talk about.

Zoe (01:08:31):
Yes.

Heather (01:08:33):
Oh my God, I'm so nervous.
Proud of you.

Zoe (01:08:35):
Proud of you.

Heather (01:08:37):
Thanks for listening to Girl, Undrunk.
You can follow us on Instagram andTikTok @girlundrunkpodcast or send me
an email at [e-mail].
Before we go, thank you to our amazingproducer, Ariane Michaud and support
from her team at Consciously Produced.

(01:08:58):
Martin Nunez Bonilla for the graphics.
Ian Sit for setting up our sound,Daniel James for the music and
final edits, and Chelsea Neilanfor the transcript and show notes.
This podcast would notbe possible without you.
Hey

(01:09:19):
listeners,
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