May 7, 2025 • 34 mins
Deep sea mining in the U.S. is entering a new chapter after a recent executive order signed by former President Donald Trump authorized exploration and extraction not only in U.S. Exclusive Economic Zones but potentially in international waters. This move marks a dramatic shift in ocean policy and raises serious questions about compliance with the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), which governs activities beyond national jurisdiction.
The risks of deep-sea mining are substantial. From disturbing unique and fragile ecosystems on the ocean floor to triggering global geopolitical tensions, the implications stretch far beyond resource extraction. Marine biologist Dr. Andrew Thaler joins the show to explain the science behind deep-sea habitats, the governance gaps in current policy, and why this executive order could undermine decades of international ocean conservation work.
This episode examines the legal, environmental, and political aspects of U.S. deep sea mining efforts. Listeners learn what’s at stake, who is challenging the decision, and how this could affect the global push for sustainable ocean management. If you care about the future of deep ocean ecosystems and global cooperation, this episode is essential listening.
Links: Southern Fried Science: https://www.southernfriedscience.com/understanding-the-executive-order-on-deep-sea-mining-and-critical-minerals-part-2-what-is-in-the-executive-order/
Follow a career in conservation: https://www.conservation-careers.com/online-training/ Use the code SUFB to get 33% off courses and the careers program.
Do you want to join my Ocean Community?
Sign Up for Updates on the process: www.speakupforblue.com/oceanapp
Sign Up for Updates on the process: www.speakupforblue.com/oceanapp
Sign up for our Newsletter: http://www.speakupforblue.com/newsletter
Facebook Group: https://bit.ly/3NmYvsI
Connect with Speak Up For Blue:
Website: https://bit.ly/3fOF3Wf
Instagram: https://bit.ly/3rIaJSG
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@speakupforblue
Twitter: https://bit.ly/3rHZxpc
YouTube: www.spe
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(01:00:02):
A couple of weeks ago, as a way in
Jamaica, I get news that
Donald Trump has signed an
executive order to allow the US to deep
sea mine, not only in
the US exclusive economics
zone, but also in the high seas, which
goes against the UN law of the sea.
I'm close.
And so where do we go from here?
I was like, where do I do when I need
information on deep sea mining?
(01:00:22):
I get an email right away from a good
friend of mine, Dr. Andrew Thaler.
He says, "Hey, Andrew, do you want to
talk about this
executive order about deep sea
mining in the US?"
I'm like, absolutely I do.
(01:00:59):
Hey everybody, welcome back to another
exciting episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean podcast.
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
This is the podcast where you find out
what's happening with the
ocean, how you can speak
up for the ocean and what you can do to
live for a better ocean by taking action.
And action is what you might need to do
today because we are
going to be talking about the
executive order that was signed by Donald
Trump a couple of weeks ago that looks at
deep sea mining in US waters as well as
(01:01:21):
the high seas, which is
kind of interesting because
the US has not ratified the
UN law of the sea on close.
And so why are they
considering going into the high seas?
There's a lot of repercussions that can
come from that that can
not only be repercussions
for the US, but also for other countries
and just in general, the ocean and
listening to UN policies.
(01:01:41):
But also deep sea mining
is a threat to the ocean.
And we just don't know how much of a
threat it is because there
hasn't been a huge amount of
understanding of deep sea processes as
well as what would happen
to those deep sea processes
should we start to
fiddle around in the deep sea.
But it's okay because Dr. Andrew Thaler
is here today to talk about
(01:02:02):
what this new executive order
means. How is it going to play a role in
the future? Do we need to
be worried about something?
Is the US able to start production and
how long it'll take? And
is this going to happen just
during this administration or is it going
to happen over a
number of administrations?
We're going to talk about that today. So
here's the interview with
Dr. Andrew Taylor talking
about the executive order for the US deep
(01:02:23):
sea mine in the US as
well as in the high seas.
Enjoy the interview and I will talk to
you after. Hey, Andrew,
welcome back on this wonderful
episode of the how to protect the ocean
podcast. Are you ready to
talk about the Americans deep
sea mining? Is it going to happen or is
it not going to happen?
We're going to talk about it.
Are you ready? Absolutely. I am.
Wonderful. This is going to
be a lot of fun. You know,
(01:02:43):
obviously people know I've talked about
on the podcast before
that, you know, the US, the US
administration, Donald Trump has sent an
executive order to explore deep sea
mining within the US as
well as outside of the US, which is
against UNCLOS, right? The UN Convention
of the Law of the Sea.
I think it's, I never able to remember
(01:03:04):
that that acronym. UNCLOS it
is. We can just call it the
Law of the Sea. Yeah, there you go. Law
of the Sea. So it's a lot of
interesting things. We know
Donald Trump doesn't like to play by the
rules. He's not playing by
the rules. So you are the one
of the experts, foremost experts on deep
sea mining. You've come
on the podcast a number of
times to talk about deep sea mining. So
(01:03:24):
I'm very happy that you hit me up
yesterday and was like,
hey, you want to talk about deep sea by
the US? I'm like, absolutely
I do. We did it the next day
and I'm happy we're doing it today. So
let's just talk about
it. You know, first, first,
but actually before we talk about it,
Andrew, why don't you just remind people
who you are and what
you do? All right. Well, hello, everyone.
I am a Dr. Andrew Thaler.
(01:03:45):
I am a deep sea ecologist,
a conservation technologist and an ocean
educator. And I run a small environmental
consulting firm that focuses on high seas
policy, technology and education.
And we're going to talk about everything
that you are, that you
run in your company, because
DC Mining, like this is, this is
interesting. We've talked about it
before. We talked about every,
you know, I think it's every six months,
(01:04:07):
the everybody gets together
in Kingston, Jamaica, and we
taught, they talk about DC Mining.
Usually we have you on to kind of debrief
and figure out what went
on and where we're at. Seems like a lot
of changes were happening. The last out
of the last meeting,
the mining company, a Canadian company
basically said, hey, you
know, we're done with all these
regulations that are happening at the
(01:04:28):
ISA, the International Sea Bed
Association. We are done.
We are going to go to the US. We're going
to propose the US to do deep sea mining.
You know, seemed like we didn't really, I
don't know if we actually
heard from the US to say,
yes, we're going to, but they seem to be
happy about it. But then
you put out an article talking
about, you know, is it really feasible?
(01:04:48):
So let's start there was
originally, was it actually
feasible for this to happen? All right.
So before we can get into
that, we got to talk about what
did happen? Yes, please do. So there's
two things happening kind of
simultaneously. There's the Metals
Company, which is the Canadian Deep Sea
Mining Company. They
have announced that they are
frustrated with the ISA process. They do
(01:05:10):
not believe that the ISA
is acting in good faith and
acting as a good regulator of the
industry. They think it is being
stonewalled by stakeholders who
are opposed to deep sea mining and that
the regulations are never
going to come. And so they
have said they're going to go it alone.
They're going to go to the
United States. They're going to
apply for a mining permit under NOAA,
which NOAA has purview through the deep
(01:05:33):
sea bed hard minerals
act over mineral resources in the high
seas purview, not necessarily authority,
the deep sea bed hard
minerals act was passed before on class
was ratified. And it was
designed to be phased out
if and when on class was ratified. So
there's questions about whether or not
the deep sea bed hard
minerals act is really applicable. The US
(01:05:56):
currently says it is the current
President of the United States has
issued an executive order saying no one
has this authority. Legal scholars say
wait a minute, probably not.
The mining company wants to go the Metals
Company wants to go gung ho and get to
mining because they
are a private company.
They have limited financial resources.
(01:06:16):
You know, they're not China.
They're not Russia. They're not
France. They don't have basically
unlimited resources to commit to this
industry. They have a burn rate.
Unfortunately for them, the health of the
ocean is not beholden to the
burn rate of private companies,
but they are attempting to begin mining
in the high seas through the United
States. And they are
applying weirdly enough
(01:06:37):
for the area that was permitted to them
through Nauru. So there's a lot of
questions now about what
does that mean for their
international relationships? What does
that mean for the partnerships they've
built through the ISA? If they mine
through the US in
defiance of ISA regulations,
how do they then get the permits to mine
(01:06:59):
in the areas that were
supposed to be reserved for Nauru?
Where do they land their metals? They
have to land them in the US, both through
the deep sea bed hard
minerals act and because of
the Jones Act, they have to bring those
minerals back to the US. The US doesn't
have processing capacity for those
minerals right now. So are we just
stockpiling them? And who's paying for
that stockpile?
Spoilers, I am. The US taxpayer.
(01:07:22):
Yeah, if they are landed. And so it's
really throwing things into a lot of
chaos because this is
completely unknown territory.
The US has followed the law of the sea as
customary law since UNCLOS was ratified.
The US signed UNCLOS. They did not ratify
it, but they signed it.
And they signed it after negotiating
specifically for carve outs within the
(01:07:43):
creation of the ISA. So, you know, we
have we exist right now under an
administration that is
very gung ho and very anti UN.
Deep sea mining is a much longer play
than the lifespan of a single
presidential administration, especially a
lame duck president who
doesn't get another term.
So, you know, whether or not they
(01:08:04):
convince Trump to allow them to mine,
there may be new questions raised when
the next president who almost certainly
will be elected based on opposition to
Trump Trump policies, I think is going to
be it's very hard to see a different kind
of future where you have
another Trumpian president.
So there will be I mean, the US president
flip flops. That's generally how we go
with elections. Yeah.
(01:08:26):
So, you know, they how that is going to
rack up against the next presidential
administration or the next Congress
because Congress generally flip flops in
the second term of a presidency to.
And so it's really it's a strange moment
for international policy. All the
international partners are furious
because they have been working on getting
(01:08:46):
these mining regulations done for years.
And it is a difficult
negotiation. It is a process.
I think the argument that it's being
stonewalled does not hold very much
water. Right. You know, this is a long
process. This is a big international
negotiation. Uncloshed
itself took 30 years to negotiate.
And we're only on, you know, we've only
(01:09:07):
really been negotiating the mining code
seriously for the last 10 years. And
technology has only been online even to
reasonably get us close to mining within
the last two. So I think it's a bit
farcical to say that
it's being stonewalled.
Well, do you think it's just more they're
using as an excuse because they know that
the president will be will be on board
for this type of work? You know, they're
(01:09:29):
just using as an excuse.
That's an assumption, but it's a Canadian
company. It's a multinational company.
They've got employees in London. They've
got employees in Canada. They've got
employees in Australia. They don't have
that many employees in the US.
And, you know, there's a cynical
interpretation that they're like, oh,
yeah, Trump's in power. We should go for
it. But I think the more reasonable
(01:09:50):
interpretation is they're running out of
money and they need to get they need to
get to profitability quick or they're
never going to be able to continue.
And they're just probably playing the
cards. They've been dealt the best they
can. And it just so happens to be up,
upending, you know, a multilateral regime
at the moment. Right.
But I think, you know, I think the
(01:10:12):
reality of the situation is they're just
they're running out of money. Private
company. They got it. They got to get to
profitability. Yeah. On that token, a
second company has entered the fray. And
this is impossible metals. And you've
talked to Oliver Gonserka
from impossible metals before.
Yes. Over. Yeah. Over LinkedIn. Yeah.
(01:10:33):
Yeah. And he you know, they have a much
more cautious approach and they have a
different set of mining technologies. And
on the same token, they have applied for
a permit to do pilot studies within the
US easy off the coast of American Samoa.
(01:10:53):
And, you know, whatever you want to think
about the validity of deep sea mining on
its own, that is at least a legally
defensible position. The US does have
authority to issue permits in its own
exclusive economic zone. Right.
Companies have a right to apply for those
permits. They applied last year under the
(01:11:15):
last administration and were rejected. So
this is a fresh application.
They're also they're not at nearly as
close to commercialization, I think, as
the metals company is. And so they're in
the process of doing their environmental
impact assessments of doing their pilot
studies of seeing how commercialization
might move forward
using their technology.
(01:11:36):
So we've got kind of deep sea mining
coming on two fronts in the US right now.
We've got the national regime, which has
a much more stable legal framework to
rely on. And then we've got the
international regime, which is just
throwing everything into complete chaos.
And on top of all that, because there's
always an end on top of all that.
No, I has lost 28% of its workforce.
(01:11:58):
Department of the Interior, Boa has lost.
I don't have the numbers on it, but a
significant percentage of its workforce.
The people who would be reviewing and
revising these permits to as far as I am
currently aware have all been retired or
forcibly retired basically.
Well, they took the ones I know I know I
took the Vera that the voluntary
(01:12:20):
retirement program, the buyout. So it's
not forcibly forcible. Like it's not one
of these cases that's being tied up in
legal struggles because it was legal
firing, but they were close to retiring.
They decided I'm going to I'm going to
retire, which kind of helps the younger
generation that's coming into right or
were eligible for retirement and didn't
want to deal with it. There are people,
(01:12:40):
you know, if you've put in your time, you
may not be close to 65.
But if you put in your time, you're
eligible to take their time and buyout
and you can go do something else. But you
know, the executive order calls for an
expediting of the permitting process, but
they don't have the personnel to do that.
So it's going to be from a logistics
standpoint. It's going to be a very
interesting few months
(01:13:00):
watching how any of this plays out.
But is the idea of taking away the people
to review because there's a review
process for every permit is the idea to
take away that review and just to rubber
stamp anybody who
wants to put a proposal in.
You know, if I do mining companies and if
I were Noah and if I were any reasonable
(01:13:20):
person, I absolutely would not want that
to be the case because right.
Like I said, this is a long process if if
they get their first permit to do their
experimental test mining for impossible
or if they get their first permits to do
commercialization for the metals company.
And there are questions about that
permit. They're going to be vulnerable to
lawsuits for the next 10 years. They'll
(01:13:43):
get bled out long before they get a
chance to reach profitability.
So, you know, if I were one of these
companies, I absolutely would not want a
rubber stamped permit expedited is one
thing rubber stamped is perhaps true, not
what anyone wants to see because that
makes everyone vulnerable.
And of course, they overturned the
Chevron doctrine, which means that NGOs
(01:14:03):
can just constantly sue for regulations.
They don't agree with because now we
don't have this doctrine within the US
that defaults regulatory
judgments to the regulator.
Right. Gotcha. Okay. So it's what I'm
going to say is that everything in the US
is chaos right now and you know, take
(01:14:24):
everything I say with a grain of salt
because it is very hard to predict what
the next six months or two years or four
years or even the next week
at some time or the next week.
What's gonna happen? I don't know what
it's gonna look like when
it's time for happy hour tonight.
Yeah, it's true. Well, it's like it was a
surprise, right? I were you surprised
when this all came out, you know, the
(01:14:44):
metals company making this announcement,
but also that was like maybe less than a
month before the executive order came out
and and it didn't seem to be and I and it
didn't seem to be at the forefront of a
lot of a lot of talk on social media.
Definitely not mainstream media because
there's more going on than this, but it
(01:15:05):
never really there's a bit of like the
announcement cause a little bit of buzz.
But before that, it never really was
talked about as much as like this is
coming down the pipe.
Like we're expecting this to come down.
Was you were you surprised by the
executive order? So we had heard rumors
about the executive order for about two
months leading up to
one actually came out.
And it was one of those things where like
(01:15:26):
every two or three days I'd be getting a
text message from one of my colleagues
being like, I heard it's coming out
today. It's gonna come out tonight. It's
gonna come out tonight.
You know, by the time it actually came
out, I was so inert to hearing this.
Yeah, I was skeptical that we'd ever see
it. Gotcha. But we had heard rumblings of
the EO would come out. The thing that
really surprised people, I think was the
(01:15:48):
metals company saying they were going for
mining in the high seas.
I was expecting an EO that was going to
focus on building refining capacity,
which the administration has been talking
about for critical minerals and
developing resources within the US easy.
I was not expecting them to go straight
up to the line of challenging the
(01:16:09):
international seabed authority because
this is a multinational industry. And,
you know, the US is the only major
economy that hasn't ratified the law of
the sea blowing up the law of the sea for
one small, relatively small company in
the grand scheme of things seems like a
terrible development
for the entire industry.
Is it legal? Like, can they are they
(01:16:32):
allowed to actually go into the high seas
and do deep sea mining? They haven't
ratified on close or law of the sea. So
how are they allowed to go in? Or is it
just more of who's going to stop them?
So I think there's a fundamental
misunderstanding about how the UN
functions as an authority, because the UN
(01:16:55):
itself is not like an authority. It's not
a police. There's no enforcement or
anything. It is a collective of nations
that agree to different treaties, to
different agreements.
And it's functionally I don't know if you
were ever in like an outdoor education
(01:17:15):
program in college or if you've ever been
involved in some of these fun little like
communal living group experiments that
do. Okay, so the UN is an anarchic
organization in the
political definition of anarchy.
It is structurally composed of entities
who all have co equal voices and
(01:17:37):
representation within the institution
with huge caveats. Obviously, you know,
the bigger the country, the more you can
bully people around, which is also how
communes work. But functionally speaking,
the UN is built on consensus. So when the
ISA is having these negotiations, they're
not necessarily voting on the mining
code. They're trying to consent to the
mining. It's getting
(01:17:58):
everyone into agreement.
And that causes a lot of trouble. It
causes a lot of heartache. It's very
difficult to get 169 nations to consent
on one thing on anything. So there's a
lot of political back and forth. There's
a lot of these maneuvers.
And there are kind of these these
consensual agreements about like how
(01:18:19):
decisions are made and when there are
disagreements, how those get decided. So
there is it loss, the international
tribunal on the Law of the Sea, which
will hear cases between member states who
believe that they're
in violation of UNCLOS.
But critically, the US is not a member
state. We are not party to UNCLOS. We
have treated it as customary law and we
have accepted it as custom money law,
(01:18:40):
customary law, which means for most of
the existence of the Law of the Sea, we
have been beholden to it, but not in a
position to negotiate it.
If we say we're just going to ignore it,
who like the repercussions are trade
disputes, which I don't know if you're
(01:19:00):
aware, but the US does not appear to be
particularly concerned about angering all
of its trade partners at the moment.
Apparently not.
There can be punitive actions about
access to resources and access supply.
China can say, well, we're just going to
shut down your access to
all our other resources.
Yeah.
You know, there can be like diplomatic
consequences. Embassies can get kicked
(01:19:21):
out. Visas can get revoked. It can become
much more difficult for an American to
travel to different countries.
But in terms of actual like hardline
punitive actions, there really isn't
anything. It's not going to spark a war.
No one's going to be sailing off to like
arrest the United States vessels that are
mining in the high seas.
(01:19:42):
What could happen is that other countries
can decide, okay, well, if UNCLOS is no
longer the law of the sea, if that is not
holding the US back, then
why should it hold us back?
And countries like Russia and China can
say, okay, well, we don't care about
UNCLOS now either. We're pulling out of
the treaty. And then it
becomes a real free for all.
Yeah. And then it comes in. It doesn't
matter what protection or what agreements
we do. It's people are just
(01:20:03):
going to do whatever they want.
So it's not a good leadership position to
take from a world perspective.
Yeah. And that's why it's so dangerous to
disrupt this very state and very well
respected multilateral agreement.
Yeah. Now, it's interesting. There's a
lot of headache around deep sea mining
anyway for any country to do.
We've seen it before. Anybody who's done
(01:20:26):
it has been shamed multiple times.
Protests have happened and so forth.
You have the US who's not signed on or
not ratified the Law of the Seas. So
there's a lot of
probably headaches around that.
We've seen a lot of people discuss what
the problems could be internally. There's
probably going to be a lot of
environmental regulations that are going
to be ignored or rolled back just to
allow this to happen.
(01:20:47):
But you also mentioned that it's
something that can't happen in the next
two years where they become profitable.
They still don't have a way to refine it.
They're just going to stockpile it. It's
expensive. So should we be worried? Is
this something to worry about from an
(01:21:08):
ocean conservation perspective?
From an ocean conservation perspective,
absolutely. It is an industry we need to
be following very closely. It is an
industry we need to be fighting to make
sure has the most stringent possible
environmental rules that we can.
The reality is one of the reasons we
don't see a lot of deep sea mining in
(01:21:29):
national waters is because it is a
politically difficult
position for a lot of countries.
And so there is a difference in the way
your citizens and your constituents think
about what's happening in your waters
versus what's happening in the high seas.
And I think that's why there's been so
much focus on the high seas as of late.
The financial reality of deep sea mining,
(01:21:53):
I'm, you know, we've talked about this
before. I'm one of those who thinks that
the financial viability is a bit
optimistic coming from
the mining companies.
I'm not entirely convinced that it will
ever be a particularly profitable
industry. And I'm because of that, I'm a
little bit more willing to say, okay,
well, let's see what your first, you
(01:22:14):
know, pilot studies look like.
You know, let's, you know, I may be the
fastest way to bring about the end of
deep sea mining is to let them do those
first pilot studies and really show that
like the profitability and the viability
of extracting resources from the deep
ocean is not viable or not a financially
productive endeavor.
You know, I could be entirely wrong about
(01:22:35):
that. I'm not an economist. You know, I
look at my stock market portfolio and I'm
like, oh, I don't I don't really know how
to pick a company.
That's definitely for sure.
Well, the way I hear it is if you just if
you if you tank the stock market and then
you buy everything at that point and it
goes up, you make billions of dollars.
That's what I've heard. That's how you
make money in the stock market these
(01:22:55):
days. It sounds like anyway.
I mean, I heard a bunch of people said I
should go buy doggy. And so I went to the
I went to the pound and now I've got like
six puppies, but they
just they cost money.
You're always sinking
money into those doggies. Yeah.
But no, so I think, you know, the metals
company is an interesting case because I
(01:23:16):
don't think they've at this point, it
really doesn't seem like they've done the
work to develop the goodwill to get that
social license to go on to the next.
Right.
And I think five months ago, I might have
said something different. But blowing up
the international regime like this, I
think has has sapped them up. They're
goodwill and possible metals like their
(01:23:37):
technology is interesting.
I want to see how it works. I want to see
it go. I want to see a pilot study. I
want to actually like we're not going to
understand really what the impacts of
this technology are going to be until we
see those first go small scale pilots.
And, you know, I think impossible metals
has has has done a little bit more on the
social licensing side of thing. And like,
(01:23:57):
I'd be you know, I'd be willing to see,
you know, what that first small
experimental pilot study looks like
before I make any judgment calls about
whether or not they
should be permitted to mine.
I'm not 100% convinced, but I'm not 100%
weighted either. You know, if deep sea
mining is an inevitability, I want the
people that are doing the best with
(01:24:18):
regard to environment, not necessarily
perfect, but at least, you know, doing
the best they can to be
the ones that get to advance.
So yeah, it's a tricky.
But they got rejected last time, though,
right? Like they got rejected from during
the last administration. Do you know why
they got rejected? Was
that anything particular?
My understanding is American Samoa, their
local government was opposed. They have
(01:24:41):
had they've also flipped parties. I think
they have a new governor now. So that
that could change
things that could change.
And, you know, perhaps their technology
wasn't as far as along during their first
application as it is now. And, you know,
they there just was a big congressional
hearing. And now there's more excitement
about deep sea mining.
So I think they're probably feeling
(01:25:03):
pretty optimistic right now that they're
going to get that permit approved. And,
you know, in the hearing, the CEO of
impossible was very much like we're just
at the beginning here.
We're still doing the environmental work.
We're not going to go full bore
commercial mining until we've done those
studies. And so, you know, I feel at this
juncture, I want to see those studies.
(01:25:24):
Yeah, yeah, of course. Now it's just the
science the hell out of it. Right. It's
like, how do we how do we figure out and
especially if it's in a pilot project in
a smaller place, you know, and hopefully
that guy hate to say it
for the impossible company.
But it's like, hopefully it's not viable
and we don't have to worry about this.
And it's all been for nothing. However, I
mean, the other the other side of the
(01:25:44):
coin is, you know, if it is
viable, maybe they're technology.
I mean, maybe all their technology lives
up to the hype. Yeah, I'd love to be
proven wrong in such a way that like
their technology does live up to their
claims and like we have that like shiny
golden optimistic future of giant robots
because who doesn't love a giant robot.
I love a giant robot.
(01:26:06):
Well, I hear they're making a Voltron
movie. So maybe that's that'll be the
closest we get to a giant robot soon. But
you never know. You never know what might
happen. So like for people listening to
this, they've they've heard us talk about
deep sea mining a lot. Right.
Now we have this executive order. Some
people are not going to be too happy
about about this. You know, people are
going to be concerned, as you
(01:26:27):
mentioned, as they should be.
We know this administration is not big on
environmental policy. We know that
certain mining companies seems a little
desperate or the metals company.
Sorry, they seem a little desperate. As
you mentioned, they might be running out
of money. And so they have this either
now or never. The impossible company like
metal company like they they seem to have
(01:26:49):
the environment in mind.
And so we're that's that's a good thing
in terms of having a company that wants
to do this, but also wants to do it the
right way and think of
like any kind of implications.
But when it comes down to it, money money
rules in a capitalistic society. And what
can what can what can people do? You
(01:27:11):
know, they're listening to this and like
how like how should they feel and and and
and and what what can they do to to help
if they don't want to see
to see mining happen in US.
What is happening in US waters or in in
the high seas? If you if you don't want
to see deep sea mining happen, this is
not the moment to panic.
You know, the metals company is making a
(01:27:32):
move that I think is based out of
desperation. That's a good
sign if you're opposed to deep.
You know, I don't I don't I'm not
particularly optimistic about any company
that's that's that's hinging its
financial future on
the Trump administration.
Generally speaking, Trump comes out of
everything perfectly fine. And all of the
people that partner with them either end
(01:27:53):
up bankrupt or in jail. So
I think that's a risky move.
It's a very risky move. And, you know, if
you're if you're a private company, it's
probably the only move you have. You got
to work with the administration that
you've you've got. You can't you can't
wait it out for four years.
But, you know, calling your
representatives, Congress just had a
hearing on it. There will almost
certainly be some form of a vote. It
(01:28:14):
might be a pro form of vote. It might not
be. There may not ever be a
bill about deep sea mining.
But you should let your Congressperson
know that that's what matters to you. If
you're not in the US, reach out to your
representatives. However, you are
represented with your own government. Let
them know where you stand on the US
flaunting the international order.
(01:28:35):
And, you know, really at this moment, you
know, supporting the NGOs that are
bringing up the legal cases against them,
supporting the NGOs that are that are
doing protest work, if that's what you
want, is really
probably the best way to go.
You know, it's a tricky industry because
until now it's all been purely
international, which means it's much
(01:28:57):
harder for stakeholders to be directly
involved. But on the other hand, letting
your elected
representatives know how you feel.
It's always, you know, the most important
thing you can do. Write letters to the
editor. Get some letters in your local
papers. I'm going to I'm writing a letter
from my local paper because I'm because
I'm me and like, you know, my county has
(01:29:17):
one of the, you know, not to toot my own
horn, but there's not that many experts
on deep sea mining and I'm one of them.
So I could at least lean on the local
angle for that and get our local paper.
You know, small things like that matter.
Keep making sure you know, you're not
getting surprised by things keeping track
of the industry as it develops.
(01:29:37):
If you're on blue sky, we have a deep sea
mining feed you can subscribe to that
tracks all the deep sea mining news so
you can you can stay abreast of
everything happening.
And you know, at this moment at this
juncture, there's not much you can do
once the permits are being reviewed,
there will be a public comment period. So
(01:29:59):
US citizens especially should participate
in that public comment period, period,
whether you're opposed or in favor.
Right.
You should participate in the public
comment period. And yeah, it's, it's,
it's a wild moment in time. I don't
really have a great handle on where
things are going next. You know, it's
possible six months from now,
(01:30:19):
everything's going to blow up in
everyone's face and we're not gonna,
there will be, you know, another deep sea
mining company will declare bankruptcy,
which, by the way, look Marine, which
bought out the Lockheed mining leases
declared bankruptcy last month.
So, okay, that's another deep sea mining
company that has proven non viable. So
right, right. It's a very dynamic moment
in the history of the industry. And it'll
(01:30:40):
be fascinating to follow.
And it will be and we'll follow it and
with with your help and and we'll we'll
put that link to that blue sky feed to in
the show notes that people can get access
to it, as well as Southern fried science
because you keep putting you and your
fellow writers David Schiffman and Angela
Gomez and others who keep putting out
these great articles on not only science
(01:31:02):
communication, Brett Favaro as well, but
also all in the what's happening with
policy and what we should be looking at
and keeping everybody informed on these specifics that don't always
get into the mainstream media and not and
definitely not in that detail. So I'll
link to Southern Fried Science as well.
Yeah, I think it's interesting. I was
surprised that the U.S. was entertaining
(01:31:25):
a Canadian company to doing some of the
work because I put up my last post because it is.
They created a U.S. subsidy just for
this. But like, yeah, everyone sees
through that. It's a Canadian company.
It's a Canadian company. I put up the
post last time and one of the comments
like get out of there. So I thought it
was I thought it was interesting.
It might make him even more unpopular if
(01:31:46):
he loves a Canadian company to to mine in
U.S. water. So yeah, it'll definitely be
interesting to follow. So, Andrew, we
always appreciate you coming on and
informing us and keeping us abreast of what we're doing.
And it's always it's always helpful. And
then like the biggest thing is just
educate, you know, you get your education
up, get your information in a row, making
(01:32:07):
sure we get the right information, tuning
into this podcast or going to Southern
Fried Science or both.
Definitely both and and saying, hey,
look, I'm going to keep aware of what to
do. So you have some great talking points
in those articles. So I think people
should should definitely check them out.
So thanks a lot. I do appreciate you
doing this such last minute. And and I
(01:32:29):
just I can't wait to have you back on to
talk more, more deep sea mining and other
projects that you have on.
I have a feeling I'll be back.
It's awesome. I'm sure you will. It'll
probably be the next couple of weeks. Who
knows? But it'll be fun. Thanks a lot. I
really appreciate it. You're very
welcome. Thanks for having me on. Thank
you, Andrew, for joining us on today's
episode of the how to protect the ocean
podcast. It was great to talk to you
(01:32:49):
again. Obviously, it's always great to
have Andrew on the podcast. He's one of
our regulars, maybe even one of the
people who've been on the podcast the
most. I don't know. I think it's true,
but we'll have to go and look at that.
But it's something that we always
appreciate, Andrew. You appreciate your time. We appreciate your insights.
I enjoyed like a policy guru when it
comes to this kind of stuff, especially
when it comes to the deep sea. And so it
was really nice to be able to have him to
(01:33:10):
explain all the different intricacies of
the policies that would come into play
and how they would be able to either get
around it or even just the fact of
putting things into production, like how
realistic is it to put things into
production within the span of this next
term that Donald Trump is in right where
he's signing. He wants to see this
happen. It's going to be interesting to
see what happens. But it's also a little
(01:33:32):
scary seeing how things can do.
And I'm sure it's sort of just not work
out or just slide down that slippery
slope as easy as it does. And that's
what's scary to me. I'm sure it's what's
scary to Andrew and a lot of other people
around the world when it comes to deep
sea mining. So we are going to see what
happens. But I would love to hear your
comments on this. I'm going to put links
to what Andrew mentioned, the blue sky
feed as well as Southern fried science.
(01:33:54):
But also, I want to hear what you think
about this whole deep sea mining. Do you
think this is good for the U.S.? Do you
think it's not? No judgment here. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Put a comment down below if you're watching this on YouTube or if you're listening to this. I'm going to be talking to you soon.
(01:34:18):
I'm Andrew and I'm your host, Andrew. I'm
your host, Andrew. And have a great day.
I'll talk to you next
time. And have a conservation.
A couple of weeks ago, as a way in
Jamaica, I get news that
Donald Trump has signed an
executive order to allow the US to deep
sea mine, not only in
the US exclusive economics
zone, but also in the high seas, which
goes against the UN law of the sea.
I'm close.
And so where do we go from here?
I was like, where do I do when I need
information on deep sea mining?
(01:00:22):
I get an email right away from a good
friend of mine, Dr. Andrew Thaler.
He says, "Hey, Andrew, do you want to
talk about this
executive order about deep sea
mining in the US?"
I'm like, absolutely I do.
(01:00:59):
Hey everybody, welcome back to another
exciting episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean podcast.
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
This is the podcast where you find out
what's happening with the
ocean, how you can speak
up for the ocean and what you can do to
live for a better ocean by taking action.
And action is what you might need to do
today because we are
going to be talking about the
executive order that was signed by Donald
Trump a couple of weeks ago that looks at
deep sea mining in US waters as well as
(01:01:21):
the high seas, which is
kind of interesting because
the US has not ratified the
UN law of the sea on close.
And so why are they
considering going into the high seas?
There's a lot of repercussions that can
come from that that can
not only be repercussions
for the US, but also for other countries
and just in general, the ocean and
listening to UN policies.
(01:01:41):
But also deep sea mining
is a threat to the ocean.
And we just don't know how much of a
threat it is because there
hasn't been a huge amount of
understanding of deep sea processes as
well as what would happen
to those deep sea processes
should we start to
fiddle around in the deep sea.
But it's okay because Dr. Andrew Thaler
is here today to talk about
(01:02:02):
what this new executive order
means. How is it going to play a role in
the future? Do we need to
be worried about something?
Is the US able to start production and
how long it'll take? And
is this going to happen just
during this administration or is it going
to happen over a
number of administrations?
We're going to talk about that today. So
here's the interview with
Dr. Andrew Taylor talking
about the executive order for the US deep
(01:02:23):
sea mine in the US as
well as in the high seas.
Enjoy the interview and I will talk to
you after. Hey, Andrew,
welcome back on this wonderful
episode of the how to protect the ocean
podcast. Are you ready to
talk about the Americans deep
sea mining? Is it going to happen or is
it not going to happen?
We're going to talk about it.
Are you ready? Absolutely. I am.
Wonderful. This is going to
be a lot of fun. You know,
(01:02:43):
obviously people know I've talked about
on the podcast before
that, you know, the US, the US
administration, Donald Trump has sent an
executive order to explore deep sea
mining within the US as
well as outside of the US, which is
against UNCLOS, right? The UN Convention
of the Law of the Sea.
I think it's, I never able to remember
(01:03:04):
that that acronym. UNCLOS it
is. We can just call it the
Law of the Sea. Yeah, there you go. Law
of the Sea. So it's a lot of
interesting things. We know
Donald Trump doesn't like to play by the
rules. He's not playing by
the rules. So you are the one
of the experts, foremost experts on deep
sea mining. You've come
on the podcast a number of
times to talk about deep sea mining. So
(01:03:24):
I'm very happy that you hit me up
yesterday and was like,
hey, you want to talk about deep sea by
the US? I'm like, absolutely
I do. We did it the next day
and I'm happy we're doing it today. So
let's just talk about
it. You know, first, first,
but actually before we talk about it,
Andrew, why don't you just remind people
who you are and what
you do? All right. Well, hello, everyone.
I am a Dr. Andrew Thaler.
(01:03:45):
I am a deep sea ecologist,
a conservation technologist and an ocean
educator. And I run a small environmental
consulting firm that focuses on high seas
policy, technology and education.
And we're going to talk about everything
that you are, that you
run in your company, because
DC Mining, like this is, this is
interesting. We've talked about it
before. We talked about every,
you know, I think it's every six months,
(01:04:07):
the everybody gets together
in Kingston, Jamaica, and we
taught, they talk about DC Mining.
Usually we have you on to kind of debrief
and figure out what went
on and where we're at. Seems like a lot
of changes were happening. The last out
of the last meeting,
the mining company, a Canadian company
basically said, hey, you
know, we're done with all these
regulations that are happening at the
(01:04:28):
ISA, the International Sea Bed
Association. We are done.
We are going to go to the US. We're going
to propose the US to do deep sea mining.
You know, seemed like we didn't really, I
don't know if we actually
heard from the US to say,
yes, we're going to, but they seem to be
happy about it. But then
you put out an article talking
about, you know, is it really feasible?
(01:04:48):
So let's start there was
originally, was it actually
feasible for this to happen? All right.
So before we can get into
that, we got to talk about what
did happen? Yes, please do. So there's
two things happening kind of
simultaneously. There's the Metals
Company, which is the Canadian Deep Sea
Mining Company. They
have announced that they are
frustrated with the ISA process. They do
(01:05:10):
not believe that the ISA
is acting in good faith and
acting as a good regulator of the
industry. They think it is being
stonewalled by stakeholders who
are opposed to deep sea mining and that
the regulations are never
going to come. And so they
have said they're going to go it alone.
They're going to go to the
United States. They're going to
apply for a mining permit under NOAA,
which NOAA has purview through the deep
(01:05:33):
sea bed hard minerals
act over mineral resources in the high
seas purview, not necessarily authority,
the deep sea bed hard
minerals act was passed before on class
was ratified. And it was
designed to be phased out
if and when on class was ratified. So
there's questions about whether or not
the deep sea bed hard
minerals act is really applicable. The US
(01:05:56):
currently says it is the current
President of the United States has
issued an executive order saying no one
has this authority. Legal scholars say
wait a minute, probably not.
The mining company wants to go the Metals
Company wants to go gung ho and get to
mining because they
are a private company.
They have limited financial resources.
(01:06:16):
You know, they're not China.
They're not Russia. They're not
France. They don't have basically
unlimited resources to commit to this
industry. They have a burn rate.
Unfortunately for them, the health of the
ocean is not beholden to the
burn rate of private companies,
but they are attempting to begin mining
in the high seas through the United
States. And they are
applying weirdly enough
(01:06:37):
for the area that was permitted to them
through Nauru. So there's a lot of
questions now about what
does that mean for their
international relationships? What does
that mean for the partnerships they've
built through the ISA? If they mine
through the US in
defiance of ISA regulations,
how do they then get the permits to mine
(01:06:59):
in the areas that were
supposed to be reserved for Nauru?
Where do they land their metals? They
have to land them in the US, both through
the deep sea bed hard
minerals act and because of
the Jones Act, they have to bring those
minerals back to the US. The US doesn't
have processing capacity for those
minerals right now. So are we just
stockpiling them? And who's paying for
that stockpile?
Spoilers, I am. The US taxpayer.
(01:07:22):
Yeah, if they are landed. And so it's
really throwing things into a lot of
chaos because this is
completely unknown territory.
The US has followed the law of the sea as
customary law since UNCLOS was ratified.
The US signed UNCLOS. They did not ratify
it, but they signed it.
And they signed it after negotiating
specifically for carve outs within the
(01:07:43):
creation of the ISA. So, you know, we
have we exist right now under an
administration that is
very gung ho and very anti UN.
Deep sea mining is a much longer play
than the lifespan of a single
presidential administration, especially a
lame duck president who
doesn't get another term.
So, you know, whether or not they
(01:08:04):
convince Trump to allow them to mine,
there may be new questions raised when
the next president who almost certainly
will be elected based on opposition to
Trump Trump policies, I think is going to
be it's very hard to see a different kind
of future where you have
another Trumpian president.
So there will be I mean, the US president
flip flops. That's generally how we go
with elections. Yeah.
(01:08:26):
So, you know, they how that is going to
rack up against the next presidential
administration or the next Congress
because Congress generally flip flops in
the second term of a presidency to.
And so it's really it's a strange moment
for international policy. All the
international partners are furious
because they have been working on getting
(01:08:46):
these mining regulations done for years.
And it is a difficult
negotiation. It is a process.
I think the argument that it's being
stonewalled does not hold very much
water. Right. You know, this is a long
process. This is a big international
negotiation. Uncloshed
itself took 30 years to negotiate.
And we're only on, you know, we've only
(01:09:07):
really been negotiating the mining code
seriously for the last 10 years. And
technology has only been online even to
reasonably get us close to mining within
the last two. So I think it's a bit
farcical to say that
it's being stonewalled.
Well, do you think it's just more they're
using as an excuse because they know that
the president will be will be on board
for this type of work? You know, they're
(01:09:29):
just using as an excuse.
That's an assumption, but it's a Canadian
company. It's a multinational company.
They've got employees in London. They've
got employees in Canada. They've got
employees in Australia. They don't have
that many employees in the US.
And, you know, there's a cynical
interpretation that they're like, oh,
yeah, Trump's in power. We should go for
it. But I think the more reasonable
(01:09:50):
interpretation is they're running out of
money and they need to get they need to
get to profitability quick or they're
never going to be able to continue.
And they're just probably playing the
cards. They've been dealt the best they
can. And it just so happens to be up,
upending, you know, a multilateral regime
at the moment. Right.
But I think, you know, I think the
(01:10:12):
reality of the situation is they're just
they're running out of money. Private
company. They got it. They got to get to
profitability. Yeah. On that token, a
second company has entered the fray. And
this is impossible metals. And you've
talked to Oliver Gonserka
from impossible metals before.
Yes. Over. Yeah. Over LinkedIn. Yeah.
(01:10:33):
Yeah. And he you know, they have a much
more cautious approach and they have a
different set of mining technologies. And
on the same token, they have applied for
a permit to do pilot studies within the
US easy off the coast of American Samoa.
(01:10:53):
And, you know, whatever you want to think
about the validity of deep sea mining on
its own, that is at least a legally
defensible position. The US does have
authority to issue permits in its own
exclusive economic zone. Right.
Companies have a right to apply for those
permits. They applied last year under the
(01:11:15):
last administration and were rejected. So
this is a fresh application.
They're also they're not at nearly as
close to commercialization, I think, as
the metals company is. And so they're in
the process of doing their environmental
impact assessments of doing their pilot
studies of seeing how commercialization
might move forward
using their technology.
(01:11:36):
So we've got kind of deep sea mining
coming on two fronts in the US right now.
We've got the national regime, which has
a much more stable legal framework to
rely on. And then we've got the
international regime, which is just
throwing everything into complete chaos.
And on top of all that, because there's
always an end on top of all that.
No, I has lost 28% of its workforce.
(01:11:58):
Department of the Interior, Boa has lost.
I don't have the numbers on it, but a
significant percentage of its workforce.
The people who would be reviewing and
revising these permits to as far as I am
currently aware have all been retired or
forcibly retired basically.
Well, they took the ones I know I know I
took the Vera that the voluntary
(01:12:20):
retirement program, the buyout. So it's
not forcibly forcible. Like it's not one
of these cases that's being tied up in
legal struggles because it was legal
firing, but they were close to retiring.
They decided I'm going to I'm going to
retire, which kind of helps the younger
generation that's coming into right or
were eligible for retirement and didn't
want to deal with it. There are people,
(01:12:40):
you know, if you've put in your time, you
may not be close to 65.
But if you put in your time, you're
eligible to take their time and buyout
and you can go do something else. But you
know, the executive order calls for an
expediting of the permitting process, but
they don't have the personnel to do that.
So it's going to be from a logistics
standpoint. It's going to be a very
interesting few months
(01:13:00):
watching how any of this plays out.
But is the idea of taking away the people
to review because there's a review
process for every permit is the idea to
take away that review and just to rubber
stamp anybody who
wants to put a proposal in.
You know, if I do mining companies and if
I were Noah and if I were any reasonable
(01:13:20):
person, I absolutely would not want that
to be the case because right.
Like I said, this is a long process if if
they get their first permit to do their
experimental test mining for impossible
or if they get their first permits to do
commercialization for the metals company.
And there are questions about that
permit. They're going to be vulnerable to
lawsuits for the next 10 years. They'll
(01:13:43):
get bled out long before they get a
chance to reach profitability.
So, you know, if I were one of these
companies, I absolutely would not want a
rubber stamped permit expedited is one
thing rubber stamped is perhaps true, not
what anyone wants to see because that
makes everyone vulnerable.
And of course, they overturned the
Chevron doctrine, which means that NGOs
(01:14:03):
can just constantly sue for regulations.
They don't agree with because now we
don't have this doctrine within the US
that defaults regulatory
judgments to the regulator.
Right. Gotcha. Okay. So it's what I'm
going to say is that everything in the US
is chaos right now and you know, take
(01:14:24):
everything I say with a grain of salt
because it is very hard to predict what
the next six months or two years or four
years or even the next week
at some time or the next week.
What's gonna happen? I don't know what
it's gonna look like when
it's time for happy hour tonight.
Yeah, it's true. Well, it's like it was a
surprise, right? I were you surprised
when this all came out, you know, the
(01:14:44):
metals company making this announcement,
but also that was like maybe less than a
month before the executive order came out
and and it didn't seem to be and I and it
didn't seem to be at the forefront of a
lot of a lot of talk on social media.
Definitely not mainstream media because
there's more going on than this, but it
(01:15:05):
never really there's a bit of like the
announcement cause a little bit of buzz.
But before that, it never really was
talked about as much as like this is
coming down the pipe.
Like we're expecting this to come down.
Was you were you surprised by the
executive order? So we had heard rumors
about the executive order for about two
months leading up to
one actually came out.
And it was one of those things where like
(01:15:26):
every two or three days I'd be getting a
text message from one of my colleagues
being like, I heard it's coming out
today. It's gonna come out tonight. It's
gonna come out tonight.
You know, by the time it actually came
out, I was so inert to hearing this.
Yeah, I was skeptical that we'd ever see
it. Gotcha. But we had heard rumblings of
the EO would come out. The thing that
really surprised people, I think was the
(01:15:48):
metals company saying they were going for
mining in the high seas.
I was expecting an EO that was going to
focus on building refining capacity,
which the administration has been talking
about for critical minerals and
developing resources within the US easy.
I was not expecting them to go straight
up to the line of challenging the
(01:16:09):
international seabed authority because
this is a multinational industry. And,
you know, the US is the only major
economy that hasn't ratified the law of
the sea blowing up the law of the sea for
one small, relatively small company in
the grand scheme of things seems like a
terrible development
for the entire industry.
Is it legal? Like, can they are they
(01:16:32):
allowed to actually go into the high seas
and do deep sea mining? They haven't
ratified on close or law of the sea. So
how are they allowed to go in? Or is it
just more of who's going to stop them?
So I think there's a fundamental
misunderstanding about how the UN
functions as an authority, because the UN
(01:16:55):
itself is not like an authority. It's not
a police. There's no enforcement or
anything. It is a collective of nations
that agree to different treaties, to
different agreements.
And it's functionally I don't know if you
were ever in like an outdoor education
(01:17:15):
program in college or if you've ever been
involved in some of these fun little like
communal living group experiments that
do. Okay, so the UN is an anarchic
organization in the
political definition of anarchy.
It is structurally composed of entities
who all have co equal voices and
(01:17:37):
representation within the institution
with huge caveats. Obviously, you know,
the bigger the country, the more you can
bully people around, which is also how
communes work. But functionally speaking,
the UN is built on consensus. So when the
ISA is having these negotiations, they're
not necessarily voting on the mining
code. They're trying to consent to the
mining. It's getting
(01:17:58):
everyone into agreement.
And that causes a lot of trouble. It
causes a lot of heartache. It's very
difficult to get 169 nations to consent
on one thing on anything. So there's a
lot of political back and forth. There's
a lot of these maneuvers.
And there are kind of these these
consensual agreements about like how
(01:18:19):
decisions are made and when there are
disagreements, how those get decided. So
there is it loss, the international
tribunal on the Law of the Sea, which
will hear cases between member states who
believe that they're
in violation of UNCLOS.
But critically, the US is not a member
state. We are not party to UNCLOS. We
have treated it as customary law and we
have accepted it as custom money law,
(01:18:40):
customary law, which means for most of
the existence of the Law of the Sea, we
have been beholden to it, but not in a
position to negotiate it.
If we say we're just going to ignore it,
who like the repercussions are trade
disputes, which I don't know if you're
(01:19:00):
aware, but the US does not appear to be
particularly concerned about angering all
of its trade partners at the moment.
Apparently not.
There can be punitive actions about
access to resources and access supply.
China can say, well, we're just going to
shut down your access to
all our other resources.
Yeah.
You know, there can be like diplomatic
consequences. Embassies can get kicked
(01:19:21):
out. Visas can get revoked. It can become
much more difficult for an American to
travel to different countries.
But in terms of actual like hardline
punitive actions, there really isn't
anything. It's not going to spark a war.
No one's going to be sailing off to like
arrest the United States vessels that are
mining in the high seas.
(01:19:42):
What could happen is that other countries
can decide, okay, well, if UNCLOS is no
longer the law of the sea, if that is not
holding the US back, then
why should it hold us back?
And countries like Russia and China can
say, okay, well, we don't care about
UNCLOS now either. We're pulling out of
the treaty. And then it
becomes a real free for all.
Yeah. And then it comes in. It doesn't
matter what protection or what agreements
we do. It's people are just
(01:20:03):
going to do whatever they want.
So it's not a good leadership position to
take from a world perspective.
Yeah. And that's why it's so dangerous to
disrupt this very state and very well
respected multilateral agreement.
Yeah. Now, it's interesting. There's a
lot of headache around deep sea mining
anyway for any country to do.
We've seen it before. Anybody who's done
(01:20:26):
it has been shamed multiple times.
Protests have happened and so forth.
You have the US who's not signed on or
not ratified the Law of the Seas. So
there's a lot of
probably headaches around that.
We've seen a lot of people discuss what
the problems could be internally. There's
probably going to be a lot of
environmental regulations that are going
to be ignored or rolled back just to
allow this to happen.
(01:20:47):
But you also mentioned that it's
something that can't happen in the next
two years where they become profitable.
They still don't have a way to refine it.
They're just going to stockpile it. It's
expensive. So should we be worried? Is
this something to worry about from an
(01:21:08):
ocean conservation perspective?
From an ocean conservation perspective,
absolutely. It is an industry we need to
be following very closely. It is an
industry we need to be fighting to make
sure has the most stringent possible
environmental rules that we can.
The reality is one of the reasons we
don't see a lot of deep sea mining in
(01:21:29):
national waters is because it is a
politically difficult
position for a lot of countries.
And so there is a difference in the way
your citizens and your constituents think
about what's happening in your waters
versus what's happening in the high seas.
And I think that's why there's been so
much focus on the high seas as of late.
The financial reality of deep sea mining,
(01:21:53):
I'm, you know, we've talked about this
before. I'm one of those who thinks that
the financial viability is a bit
optimistic coming from
the mining companies.
I'm not entirely convinced that it will
ever be a particularly profitable
industry. And I'm because of that, I'm a
little bit more willing to say, okay,
well, let's see what your first, you
(01:22:14):
know, pilot studies look like.
You know, let's, you know, I may be the
fastest way to bring about the end of
deep sea mining is to let them do those
first pilot studies and really show that
like the profitability and the viability
of extracting resources from the deep
ocean is not viable or not a financially
productive endeavor.
You know, I could be entirely wrong about
(01:22:35):
that. I'm not an economist. You know, I
look at my stock market portfolio and I'm
like, oh, I don't I don't really know how
to pick a company.
That's definitely for sure.
Well, the way I hear it is if you just if
you if you tank the stock market and then
you buy everything at that point and it
goes up, you make billions of dollars.
That's what I've heard. That's how you
make money in the stock market these
(01:22:55):
days. It sounds like anyway.
I mean, I heard a bunch of people said I
should go buy doggy. And so I went to the
I went to the pound and now I've got like
six puppies, but they
just they cost money.
You're always sinking
money into those doggies. Yeah.
But no, so I think, you know, the metals
company is an interesting case because I
(01:23:16):
don't think they've at this point, it
really doesn't seem like they've done the
work to develop the goodwill to get that
social license to go on to the next.
Right.
And I think five months ago, I might have
said something different. But blowing up
the international regime like this, I
think has has sapped them up. They're
goodwill and possible metals like their
(01:23:37):
technology is interesting.
I want to see how it works. I want to see
it go. I want to see a pilot study. I
want to actually like we're not going to
understand really what the impacts of
this technology are going to be until we
see those first go small scale pilots.
And, you know, I think impossible metals
has has has done a little bit more on the
social licensing side of thing. And like,
(01:23:57):
I'd be you know, I'd be willing to see,
you know, what that first small
experimental pilot study looks like
before I make any judgment calls about
whether or not they
should be permitted to mine.
I'm not 100% convinced, but I'm not 100%
weighted either. You know, if deep sea
mining is an inevitability, I want the
people that are doing the best with
(01:24:18):
regard to environment, not necessarily
perfect, but at least, you know, doing
the best they can to be
the ones that get to advance.
So yeah, it's a tricky.
But they got rejected last time, though,
right? Like they got rejected from during
the last administration. Do you know why
they got rejected? Was
that anything particular?
My understanding is American Samoa, their
local government was opposed. They have
(01:24:41):
had they've also flipped parties. I think
they have a new governor now. So that
that could change
things that could change.
And, you know, perhaps their technology
wasn't as far as along during their first
application as it is now. And, you know,
they there just was a big congressional
hearing. And now there's more excitement
about deep sea mining.
So I think they're probably feeling
(01:25:03):
pretty optimistic right now that they're
going to get that permit approved. And,
you know, in the hearing, the CEO of
impossible was very much like we're just
at the beginning here.
We're still doing the environmental work.
We're not going to go full bore
commercial mining until we've done those
studies. And so, you know, I feel at this
juncture, I want to see those studies.
(01:25:24):
Yeah, yeah, of course. Now it's just the
science the hell out of it. Right. It's
like, how do we how do we figure out and
especially if it's in a pilot project in
a smaller place, you know, and hopefully
that guy hate to say it
for the impossible company.
But it's like, hopefully it's not viable
and we don't have to worry about this.
And it's all been for nothing. However, I
mean, the other the other side of the
(01:25:44):
coin is, you know, if it is
viable, maybe they're technology.
I mean, maybe all their technology lives
up to the hype. Yeah, I'd love to be
proven wrong in such a way that like
their technology does live up to their
claims and like we have that like shiny
golden optimistic future of giant robots
because who doesn't love a giant robot.
I love a giant robot.
(01:26:06):
Well, I hear they're making a Voltron
movie. So maybe that's that'll be the
closest we get to a giant robot soon. But
you never know. You never know what might
happen. So like for people listening to
this, they've they've heard us talk about
deep sea mining a lot. Right.
Now we have this executive order. Some
people are not going to be too happy
about about this. You know, people are
going to be concerned, as you
(01:26:27):
mentioned, as they should be.
We know this administration is not big on
environmental policy. We know that
certain mining companies seems a little
desperate or the metals company.
Sorry, they seem a little desperate. As
you mentioned, they might be running out
of money. And so they have this either
now or never. The impossible company like
metal company like they they seem to have
(01:26:49):
the environment in mind.
And so we're that's that's a good thing
in terms of having a company that wants
to do this, but also wants to do it the
right way and think of
like any kind of implications.
But when it comes down to it, money money
rules in a capitalistic society. And what
can what can what can people do? You
(01:27:11):
know, they're listening to this and like
how like how should they feel and and and
and and what what can they do to to help
if they don't want to see
to see mining happen in US.
What is happening in US waters or in in
the high seas? If you if you don't want
to see deep sea mining happen, this is
not the moment to panic.
You know, the metals company is making a
(01:27:32):
move that I think is based out of
desperation. That's a good
sign if you're opposed to deep.
You know, I don't I don't I'm not
particularly optimistic about any company
that's that's that's hinging its
financial future on
the Trump administration.
Generally speaking, Trump comes out of
everything perfectly fine. And all of the
people that partner with them either end
(01:27:53):
up bankrupt or in jail. So
I think that's a risky move.
It's a very risky move. And, you know, if
you're if you're a private company, it's
probably the only move you have. You got
to work with the administration that
you've you've got. You can't you can't
wait it out for four years.
But, you know, calling your
representatives, Congress just had a
hearing on it. There will almost
certainly be some form of a vote. It
(01:28:14):
might be a pro form of vote. It might not
be. There may not ever be a
bill about deep sea mining.
But you should let your Congressperson
know that that's what matters to you. If
you're not in the US, reach out to your
representatives. However, you are
represented with your own government. Let
them know where you stand on the US
flaunting the international order.
(01:28:35):
And, you know, really at this moment, you
know, supporting the NGOs that are
bringing up the legal cases against them,
supporting the NGOs that are that are
doing protest work, if that's what you
want, is really
probably the best way to go.
You know, it's a tricky industry because
until now it's all been purely
international, which means it's much
(01:28:57):
harder for stakeholders to be directly
involved. But on the other hand, letting
your elected
representatives know how you feel.
It's always, you know, the most important
thing you can do. Write letters to the
editor. Get some letters in your local
papers. I'm going to I'm writing a letter
from my local paper because I'm because
I'm me and like, you know, my county has
(01:29:17):
one of the, you know, not to toot my own
horn, but there's not that many experts
on deep sea mining and I'm one of them.
So I could at least lean on the local
angle for that and get our local paper.
You know, small things like that matter.
Keep making sure you know, you're not
getting surprised by things keeping track
of the industry as it develops.
(01:29:37):
If you're on blue sky, we have a deep sea
mining feed you can subscribe to that
tracks all the deep sea mining news so
you can you can stay abreast of
everything happening.
And you know, at this moment at this
juncture, there's not much you can do
once the permits are being reviewed,
there will be a public comment period. So
(01:29:59):
US citizens especially should participate
in that public comment period, period,
whether you're opposed or in favor.
Right.
You should participate in the public
comment period. And yeah, it's, it's,
it's a wild moment in time. I don't
really have a great handle on where
things are going next. You know, it's
possible six months from now,
(01:30:19):
everything's going to blow up in
everyone's face and we're not gonna,
there will be, you know, another deep sea
mining company will declare bankruptcy,
which, by the way, look Marine, which
bought out the Lockheed mining leases
declared bankruptcy last month.
So, okay, that's another deep sea mining
company that has proven non viable. So
right, right. It's a very dynamic moment
in the history of the industry. And it'll
(01:30:40):
be fascinating to follow.
And it will be and we'll follow it and
with with your help and and we'll we'll
put that link to that blue sky feed to in
the show notes that people can get access
to it, as well as Southern fried science
because you keep putting you and your
fellow writers David Schiffman and Angela
Gomez and others who keep putting out
these great articles on not only science
(01:31:02):
communication, Brett Favaro as well, but
also all in the what's happening with
policy and what we should be looking at
and keeping everybody informed on these specifics that don't always
get into the mainstream media and not and
definitely not in that detail. So I'll
link to Southern Fried Science as well.
Yeah, I think it's interesting. I was
surprised that the U.S. was entertaining
(01:31:25):
a Canadian company to doing some of the
work because I put up my last post because it is.
They created a U.S. subsidy just for
this. But like, yeah, everyone sees
through that. It's a Canadian company.
It's a Canadian company. I put up the
post last time and one of the comments
like get out of there. So I thought it
was I thought it was interesting.
It might make him even more unpopular if
(01:31:46):
he loves a Canadian company to to mine in
U.S. water. So yeah, it'll definitely be
interesting to follow. So, Andrew, we
always appreciate you coming on and
informing us and keeping us abreast of what we're doing.
And it's always it's always helpful. And
then like the biggest thing is just
educate, you know, you get your education
up, get your information in a row, making
(01:32:07):
sure we get the right information, tuning
into this podcast or going to Southern
Fried Science or both.
Definitely both and and saying, hey,
look, I'm going to keep aware of what to
do. So you have some great talking points
in those articles. So I think people
should should definitely check them out.
So thanks a lot. I do appreciate you
doing this such last minute. And and I
(01:32:29):
just I can't wait to have you back on to
talk more, more deep sea mining and other
projects that you have on.
I have a feeling I'll be back.
It's awesome. I'm sure you will. It'll
probably be the next couple of weeks. Who
knows? But it'll be fun. Thanks a lot. I
really appreciate it. You're very
welcome. Thanks for having me on. Thank
you, Andrew, for joining us on today's
episode of the how to protect the ocean
podcast. It was great to talk to you
(01:32:49):
again. Obviously, it's always great to
have Andrew on the podcast. He's one of
our regulars, maybe even one of the
people who've been on the podcast the
most. I don't know. I think it's true,
but we'll have to go and look at that.
But it's something that we always
appreciate, Andrew. You appreciate your time. We appreciate your insights.
I enjoyed like a policy guru when it
comes to this kind of stuff, especially
when it comes to the deep sea. And so it
was really nice to be able to have him to
(01:33:10):
explain all the different intricacies of
the policies that would come into play
and how they would be able to either get
around it or even just the fact of
putting things into production, like how
realistic is it to put things into
production within the span of this next
term that Donald Trump is in right where
he's signing. He wants to see this
happen. It's going to be interesting to
see what happens. But it's also a little
(01:33:32):
scary seeing how things can do.
And I'm sure it's sort of just not work
out or just slide down that slippery
slope as easy as it does. And that's
what's scary to me. I'm sure it's what's
scary to Andrew and a lot of other people
around the world when it comes to deep
sea mining. So we are going to see what
happens. But I would love to hear your
comments on this. I'm going to put links
to what Andrew mentioned, the blue sky
feed as well as Southern fried science.
(01:33:54):
But also, I want to hear what you think
about this whole deep sea mining. Do you
think this is good for the U.S.? Do you
think it's not? No judgment here. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Put a comment down below if you're watching this on YouTube or if you're listening to this. I'm going to be talking to you soon.
(01:34:18):
I'm Andrew and I'm your host, Andrew. I'm
your host, Andrew. And have a great day.
I'll talk to you next
time. And have a conservation.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.