April 9, 2025 • 47 mins
De-extinction is no longer just science fiction. In this episode, we dive into the controversial concept of bringing back extinct species—specifically the dire wolf—using cutting-edge genetic engineering. Inspired by the headline-grabbing efforts to resurrect woolly mammoths, scientists are now exploring how DNA from ancient canids could be used to reintroduce this Ice Age predator into modern ecosystems.
Genetic engineering plays a central role in this story. From piecing together fragmented DNA to editing modern genomes, researchers face significant scientific, ethical, and ecological hurdles. What would it mean to bring back a dire wolf? Would the creature truly be a dire wolf—or a hybrid imitation? We explore what’s possible, what’s fantasy, and what responsibilities come with resurrecting the past.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Did a company bring back the direwolf?
(00:03):
Is it de-extincted, I
guess is the question.
That's the big
question around everything.
And I know you're thinking, Andrew,
this is an ocean podcast.
Like why are we
talking about wolves in this?
Well, one, wolves are cool.
We always love to talk about that.
I'm a Game of Thrones fan.
So dire wolves, obviously a great topic
to discuss on an ocean podcast.
But what we're gonna
be talking about today
on this episode is we're gonna be looking
(00:24):
at the questions surrounding like
bringing back species.
Is it a good idea to do it?
First of all, de-extinct, is
it an actual direwolf species?
And what are the
implications for the ocean?
That's what we're gonna be
talking about on today's episode
of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
Let's start the show.
(00:45):
Hey everybody, welcome
back to this exciting episode
of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
And this is the
podcast where you find out
what's happening with the ocean,
how you could speak up for the ocean
and what you can do to
live for a better ocean
by taking action.
On today's episode, we
have a great one for you.
We have Dr. Gabby Monstrum-Monaco
who is here today from the Toronto Zoo.
(01:05):
She is the chief scientist at the zoo
and she's also in charge of
the cryogenic bank at the zoo
where they actually
have sperm and embryos
from over 400
different species of animals
that are at the zoo
and outside of the zoo
to help preserve genetic diversity.
Now I asked her on the
podcast not only to talk about that
because it works well
(01:27):
with the direwolf thing
because we're talking about genetics,
but I wanted to get her opinions,
her scientific opinions
about what has happened
with this news about bringing back
and de-extincting the direwolf.
Is it a direwolf?
Is it considered a direwolf?
And why are scientists
so obsessed about saying,
"Hey, you know what? It's not a direwolf.
Why are we so worried about that?"
(01:48):
And also it doesn't matter
when the whole context of things.
Then we're gonna ask the question,
"Hey, what are the
implications for conservation?
Are they actually gonna
release these species?
What if they get out from
their enclosure right now?"
We're talking about
wooly mammoths coming back.
There's a lot of
questions that we have to answer
and I wanted to get Gabby on
because she has the
expertise to talk about.
(02:08):
She has the knowledge of this.
She's done read the papers.
She's written papers.
And I think it's really
important that we get somebody
with the expertise on the
podcast to talk about it.
So that's what we're
gonna be talking about today.
I can't wait for you to
listen to this interview
with Dr. Gabby Mastrovodico
from the Toronto Zoo.
Enjoy and I will talk to you after.
Hey Gabby, welcome to the How
to Protect the Ocean podcast.
Are you ready to talk about
(02:29):
genetics and de-extinction?
Hi Andrew. Yes, I am.
Thank you for having me here today.
You bet. Now this is a lot of fun.
This is the first time I've had, Gabby.
This is the first time
I've had you on this podcast,
but we have a bit of a history.
I interviewed you for
the Wild4Life podcast,
the Toronto Zoo podcast
a couple of years ago.
That was a lot of fun.
We talked about what a little bit
(02:50):
of what we're gonna
be talking about today,
talking about the Toronto
Zoo's work with the cryogenics lab
and the work with
preserving genetic diversity
and in some cases producing animals
from in vitro fertilization.
We're gonna talk about your work on that
because it's groundbreaking.
It's a lot of fun to talk about,
but I asked you on the podcast today
because obviously the
news has been flooded
(03:11):
with this idea of de-extinction
and with these dire wolves or gray wolves
that have been genetically altered,
however you wanna see it,
however it's been presented,
has just dominated
the news in a news cycle
that's been pretty bleak
lately with the economy
and everything like that.
So it really brought attention.
It's a topic of a lot of conversation
among scientists and among the public.
(03:32):
So what I wanted to do is have you once
is you have such a great
experience in this research area
and I want to get your thoughts on the
idea of de-extinction
and of course,
repopulation of these animals
that have been coming into play.
So we're gonna talk all about that,
which I can't wait to get into.
But before we do, Gabby,
can you just let us know
who you are and what you do?
(03:55):
Absolutely.
So I'm Gabby Master Monaco.
I'm the chief science
officer at Toronto Zoo
and also the
reproductive biologist for the zoo.
So I'm in this really unique
and lucky privileged position
where I not only get to focus on the
reproductive science
that had been done at the zoo,
(04:15):
but my position has grown a little bit
to look over all the sciences.
So animal wellbeing,
health, welfare, nutrition,
and of course
reproduction and the field teams,
the species recovery teams.
So because it's working
together that we can do good things.
And this is what I love about the zoo.
When I started podcasting for you guys,
(04:38):
I really learned about that
the zoo is not just a place
where you go in and look at animals.
That's just one aspect of it.
What I like to call it is it's a
conservation organization.
It's a facility that
facilitates the conservation
of the animals, not only that you house,
but other animals locally and so forth
and have programs with the community,
have programs really
all around the world.
And that's what I love about the zoo.
(05:00):
And so I really
appreciate the work that you do
and congratulations on the
expansion of that position
that you were in, much is well deserved.
And I know that they are going to be,
the people there are going to be,
not only the members of the zoo,
but also the people who
are there for the zoo,
the staff and stuff that are
going to enjoy what you do.
(05:20):
And so I really appreciate
you coming on the podcast.
And I know I asked you
last minute to come on
because we're going to talk about this
idea for de-extinction.
But what I want to first get into is just
kind of give an idea
of what you do, like the cryogenics lab
and the purpose of the
cryogenics lab at the zoo.
Can you tell us a
little bit about sort of
like a brief history
of like how it started,
(05:41):
why it started and then what you do
with all the things
at the cryogenics lab?
So you've hit on one of my favourite
topics and I'll try to
be succinct about it.
But so obviously Toronto Zoo has the only
reproductive science
program in a zoo in Canada.
And so I mean, preserving genetic
(06:01):
diversity can be done in a
number of different ways.
We can naturally breed animals and
release them into the wild.
But at Toronto Zoo, we also use
alternative strategies, which is assisted
reproduction as well.
And because we work with artificial
insemination, in vitro
fertilization, producing embryos.
(06:22):
But the most important thing of all of
that is that we can freeze them as well.
So storing in liquid nitrogen means that
that genetic material that is present
today can be captured forever.
As long as we monitor those tanks and
look after them, we can take the
snapshots in time of the
species that are around.
(06:43):
So our biobank is 40 years old. I'm
trying to do the math in my head.
40 years old.
Yeah, pushing.
Yeah, 40 years old, 1980, right?
Just yeah, just over 40 years old.
And we've been diligently not only
cryopreserving samples from our own
(07:03):
animals, we support zoos across Canada.
And of course, samples from the wild that
that's the new area that we need to get
into and have started working on.
Now, when we talk about this genetic
material, like this DNA that's preserved,
we're talking about intact DNA.
Like this is not just DNA that's taken
from a fossil or taken from something
(07:25):
that's been that was, you know, died
10,000 years ago or plus this is we're
talking about things that have that like
DNA material that's intact that have been
taking over the last 40 years because
that's how long like, you know, within
that that time span.
So like if you were to unfreeze it and I
know obviously I'm simplifying that the
process here, but if you were unfreeze
some of that genetic material, that
(07:46):
genetic material would be intact if you
want to use it, correct?
So that is the important distinction.
There's a lot of wildlife
biobanks around the world.
Our amazing Canadian Museum of Nature has
Canada's biodiversity biobank.
But when you're thinking of that DNA,
whether it's ancestral or modern DNA,
(08:08):
it's just frozen dead material.
So you can get DNA out of it.
But the cryobank or biobank at the
Toronto Zoo has living cells, living
sperm, living embryos, living skin cells
from which we can just take DNA to
sequence it or whatever
we want to do with it.
(08:29):
But we can also create offspring.
So with with that, that nice clean modern
living cells that are frozen away, we can
apply the reproductive technologies that
are available to us.
That's amazing. If we just talk about the
bison program, because this is something
that I brag to people about because I'm
(08:49):
so proud, not only to be from Toronto,
but to be Canadian to be just say like,
hey, this has happened locally.
And it's not an easy thing to do.
This is something that takes
years and years of research.
But can you talk about the program and
what it's been able to accomplish?
You know, it's been a
it's been a long ago.
We started 2007, 2008.
(09:10):
So we're looking at over 15 years of
really methodical and diligent trials,
not only at Toronto Zoo, but this is a
really important partnership with
University of
Saskatchewan and Parks Canada.
And of course, partnerships and
collaboration are the foundation of good
research and good conservation.
(09:31):
So, you know, we were interested in the
challenges that were happening in the
wild with the disease issue.
Of course, there's some really
genetically valuable animals that have
tuberculosis, brucellosis.
And we knew that we could take sperm,
embryos, we can hopefully disinfect them
of those diseases and
(09:52):
bank clean genetics.
So clean living sperm and embryos that
can be used in the future to repopulate
these disease free herds.
And and there's been a couple of really
important firsts that
come out of this project.
But of course, at Toronto Zoo, a few
years ago, you might remember we had a
calf born a bison calf born from sperm
(10:14):
that had been frozen for 35 years.
And that is the oldest, like living sperm
frozen that resulted in a live calf from
artificial insemination.
So and that would mean again, just to
simplify, that would mean so you took
that that sperm from 35 years ago, you
inseminate into an embryo and then a
(10:34):
bison like a female bison carried that
that fetus and then gave birth.
Is that correct?
Yes. So in this case, we didn't make the
embryo in the lab, but so we thought this
35 year frozen sperm, we put it into the
female who was synchronized to the right
time of the cycle. And she carried the
embryo in the fetus to term.
(10:57):
It's it's so funny when you say it
because every time you say is like the
timing had to be perfect. You know,
you're looking at this, you know, you
don't want to waste the sperm. Obviously,
it's it's very valuable from a genetic
diversity standpoint.
Plus, like the age of it and and just
sort of the sensitivity of the process
itself. And it's just amazing how this is
what happened. We got we got a bison now
(11:18):
in the purpose of this program and many
other programs at the zoo is to preserve
genetic diversity to
preserve the species.
So one of the things that the zoo does
and many other zoos in North America is
they they team up and and try to mate
animals of the same species that have a
optimal genetic diversity.
So if they made it, they would like that
(11:40):
offspring would have that optimal
diversity so that you can preserve the
different genetic diversity.
Can you talk about the importance of
preserving that genetic
diversity within a species?
Yeah, so I really like how you describe
that we we take a lot of care in how we
pair the animals so that we make sure
(12:02):
there's no inbreeding and they're they're
genetically diverse.
But the importance of genetic diversity
is the long term health of the
population. So you need genetic diversity
to be able to adapt to
changing environments.
You need genetic diversity to stay
healthy, to have good immune systems, to
(12:23):
combat disease and natural changes or
anthropogenic. So human induced changes
as well. So yeah, genetic diversity is is
the foundation of long term success.
Yeah, it's a it's a conservation staple
to you, right? When you talk about
species diversity, we talk about
community diversity, ecosystem diversity,
(12:44):
but really down when you get down to it,
it's that genetic diversity to make sure
that population could be stable.
And I really appreciate the amount of
work that your team, you and your team
have done, as well as your partners with
the universities and Parks Canada have
done to help preserve and help, you know,
I guess, conserve
this population of bison.
And hopefully one day when that disease
(13:06):
is eradicated in in the wild, or it's
it's gotten to a manageable point. The
goal is to take the bison of that have
that do not have the disease in the zoo
that you've been able to successfully
breed and put them into
into the wild. Is that correct?
Yes, so ultimately, I mean, the whether
(13:27):
it's in the biobank or whether they're in
managed settings like zoos, these animals
are the insurance for those future
reintroductions. Now, sometimes
reintroducing a species does not happen
right away, because we've got to look
after the habitat, we've got to make sure
they're somewhere proper to put them back
(13:47):
so that they survive.
And with that, too, is another thing I
learned at the zoo. It's the nutrition
aspect, right? Is can that population
hold enough enough animals that will
maintain that population? You don't want
to repopulate if there's not enough food
or not enough resources available for
that species to to survive.
And there's a lot that goes in a lot of
(14:08):
calculations, a lot of theoretical
biology that goes on to be able to to
understand that. And I think the
nutrition department at the Toronto Zoo
is very active in those calculations for
other species that I
think is is just wonderful.
Now, let's get into the this is great. I
really appreciate you coming on to talk
about that because that's what I wanted
to to get to get the audience to
(14:28):
understand your background, your
specialization and expertise.
You obviously know that and you've been
already talking to the news about this
new project, I guess it's a company
called Colossal. They've come out with an
announcement that they've produced, quote
unquote, three dire wolves.
(14:49):
Now, the media and the marketing aspect
of it, you have to respect it. They're
coming out saying that these are dire
wolves and we've successfully
de-extincted these three.
Like we brought the dire wolf back.
That's a lot of the the for the first
couple of days anyway, or even the first
day. That was a lot of the
titles on on Time magazine.
(15:09):
I think it had extinct and then they put
a cross. They put a red highlight marker
around it and then they had the dire wolf
there. Now, obviously, it's it's it's
from it from. Well, actually, I should
ask you from from a
scientific point of view.
This is pretty phenomenal, right? Is this
is this something that's like this is
incredible that we were able to do this
(15:30):
as scientists is to inject the dire wolf
DNA into a gray wolf DNA and to be able
to produce an animal
that has dire wolf DNA.
That's pretty incredible, right?
So, obviously, there's a lot of parts to
this big, big picture here. The
(15:53):
techniques that were done are very
impactful and obviously, the funding and
staffing resources at Colossal, they were
able to to ramp up these technologies
very quickly, what might have taken, you
know, a zoo or a university longer to do.
So, so, so technologically speaking,
(16:16):
these are very important advancements for
science in general. Right. Gotcha. Yeah.
Now, one thing that I always I always
find interesting. You mentioned like they
had the resources, the financial
resources to really
accelerate that process to be.
I looked at the number was 435 million
dollars. Now, we biologists salivate at
(16:40):
that amount of money. You know what I
mean? Because as you well know, that goes
a long way in conservation, not
restoration, but in conservation. It
takes a lot of money.
It always is more expensive when you
restore a habitat or you restore species
in this case, right? 435 million dollars
to get this thing started. Who knows how
much is going to cost for other species?
(17:01):
And maybe that will get cheaper if this
continues on. That's a topic that we'll
talk about in a bit.
But I feel as though, you know, that's a
lot of money that could be put towards
other things in conservation, which we'll
get to in a little bit. But the science
of it, you're right. I feel like it's
pretty cool that we were able to do that.
Now, the question I ask you and you're
(17:24):
like, I feel you have the expertise to
really answer this and I'm sure you've
thought about a lot of the ethical ways
and even the scientific ways of how do
we, you know, consider this a dire wolf
species, right? Because if you if you
really think about the information that's
come out that a lot of people probably
know is that, you know, this this chain
of DNA that the Grey Wolf has is probably
(17:45):
like, you know, 22 to
23,000 genes within the DNA.
And this is an estimate. This is what I'm
getting off of reports. I don't know for
sure. But this is around the thing. They
did like, I think it was like, it was
either like 20 different changes to 14
genes or 14 different changes to 20 of
those segments. So very, very small
percentage of the Grey Wolf was altered
(18:07):
of the DNA, a Grey Wolf, the day it was
altered for dire wolf characteristics.
So, from a scientific like taxonomy point
of view, what do we consider is this
considered like a new species or the dire
wolf species? How do is it? Are there
like certain regulations or credentials
(18:29):
that that scientists follow that will
that we would say, yes, this is a dire
wolf species or no, this is just a
genetically altered Grey Wolf species.
That is very important question. And I
think people need to understand the the
regulatory part of it and and then can
(18:49):
make up their mind. So, you know, science
is very methodical and the definition of
species, how years ago it
was based on morphology.
And I think we've moved away from that
because we know that morphology doesn't
give you the entire picture. So now we
are using genetics to make sure that
they're different species. Doing it was
(19:12):
20 edits on 14 genes.
I always get those mixed up.
But minuscule minuscule. Yeah. Yeah, it
really is just genetic modification. It
is not a new species. And if you think,
as an example, I have a Maltese at home,
right? My Maltese is not a great day. But
(19:33):
I'll guarantee there's you know, 20 size
and co color edits between the Maltese
and the Great Dane, maybe 50, maybe 10.
But but to do morphology based changes
and then declared a new species is not
telling the full truth. A species is much
(19:54):
more complex than co color and size.
And I think that's what they were
according to a lot of the PR and a lot of
the articles that Colossus, the colossal
came out with. So not necessarily with
where other scientists were like yourself
or other other experts
were commenting on it.
This is what they put out as their as
their PR, you know, a lot of them saying
(20:16):
we just want to see if we could make a
dire wolf like our species that would
express the dire wolf gene. So having I
think they said a main or even being like
six feet long, I think are some of the
characteristics that that
they that they discussed.
They they never actually came out and
said this is a dire wolf species.
However, a lot of the media came out and
(20:37):
saying, hey, the dire wolf is back, the
dire wolf back. And of course, the dire
wolf is very popular in in
the Game of Thrones version.
They even had George R.R. Martin, you
know, as part of the photo shoot, he even
cried when he saw them and they're
beautiful puppies. Like, let's be honest
as animal lovers, you know, you want to
hug them and you want to play with them.
However, there, you know, there was I
(20:59):
think a lot of scientists are up in arms
because, you know, people are calling
this, you know, they brought back the
dire, the dire wolf. That's not the case.
Correct? Is that like from a scientific
point of view, they didn't
bring back a dire wolf, right?
Correct. So one to say to announce that,
you know, some really amazing lab
(21:21):
experiments were done. Really, what the
advancement is, is the ability to edit
more than one gene or low site at a time.
So they made 20 edits at the same time.
That's that's called multiplex gene
editing spectacular. I mean, that that is
an advancement. The challenge scientists
(21:44):
are having is to say that anything was
resurrected or de extincted, or even that
it is a different species is really, you
know, skewing the
reality of what a species is.
Right. So if we're going to, you know,
there's a pop culture involved here, you
(22:05):
said it, this is Game of Thrones land,
which I sadly didn't watch, but now I
might go back and watch. But but we are
in the pop culture and people want to
call them dire wolves. So, you know, and
from a pop culture stance,
okay, you know, that's fine.
But from a scientific communication
(22:26):
standpoint, we have to stay true to the
science. So we do have to call them
genetically modified organisms, rather
than a new species. They're genetically
modified gray wolves. Yeah, right.
Gotcha. Now I have to ask this as someone
who works for the zoo and the zoo is
very, very big on not only having, you
know, scientists and experts, but also
(22:46):
being able to communicate that
science to the public, right?
Every one of you at the staff there are
very good at discussing about the
animals, the different characteristics,
their personalities of the animals that
you have at the zoo, but also the work
that you do, which is very complex. You
have to have that ability to say that to
a public audience that may or may not
have the background, like a biology
(23:07):
background or anything
like a science background.
And you guys are very good at doing what
you do. Now here's the question I pose to
you. Okay. The media comes out saying
dire wolves are back, right? De extinct. Everything like that.
Scientists come out and be like, well,
actually hold on a second. Like that's
not the case in this particular point,
but everybody's excited that this dire
(23:29):
wolf is back. And this is the first time
they've some of them have most of them
have ever heard of this type of, you
know, of this technology is
biotechnologies to bring in. So they get
excited about that, especially in a new
cycle. That is, let's be honest, crap
right now. Like it's not very nice. So we have this, like, you know, some of the things that we're doing that are really, really cool.
We have this, like, you know, scientists
are always, I always feel like the
(23:49):
scientists are like the parents of, of,
you know, the public words like, yeah, it
is kind of cool, but it's not quite the
way it is. And they're all
just like, you ruin everything.
Like, you know, it's almost that
perception as a scientist where you have
to say it because we're scientists, but
also people are like, but dire wolves,
like we want dire wolves. How do you deal
with that where you can speak
(24:10):
intelligently on the subject?
But in a way where you're not seen as,
you know, downing the the the the this
new sort of announcement.
Okay, that's a really important question.
And I think that's what really good
science communicators are about. And
(24:31):
perhaps because we work in zoos and our
goal is to educate as well as doing
science, we really focus on educating
from like two-year-olds
to 72 year olds. We have to, you know,
master the span of the language. But I
think what is really important is to
(24:52):
celebrate the science, the science that
was done needs to be celebrated in the
sense that they are developing
technologies that can be
useful for many things.
But then we need to stay true to science.
And one of the reasons is because it is a
very difficult time in the world now,
(25:14):
where, you know, people are questioning
what is being said in social media, on
the internet. And if scientists don't say
stay true to the word, to the science,
then it becomes a slippery slope for
scientific integrity.
So we celebrate what was done. But then
(25:34):
we clearly state that, you know, we'd
like to call these genetically modified
gray wolves. Right. But we celebrate how
they got there. Exactly. Yeah. And I
agree with you. I think that's that's
really important,
especially from a public perception.
Like we know scientists sometimes in the
public are not really seen as, you know,
the regular people that everybody that we
(25:55):
are, you know, and this is why I started
the podcast is to get to know people and
and how we behave and what our likes and
dislikes are and then how we feel about
certain topics like this.
But it's also when when we get an idea
like this, they're not just the questions
of this is great technology and this is
really cool. And we celebrate it. But
there are a lot of thoughts from an
(26:16):
ethical point of view of what we're doing
here. And I'd like to talk about this for
the rest of the interview. And that is,
okay, so now we have these these wolves,
these genetically modified wolves,
modified wolves with
dire wolf genes in them.
This means that there's genes in this
these wolves. We don't know if they're
going to be dominant. We don't know if
(26:37):
they're going to be recessive. We have no
idea. They are in a two thousand acre
park or reserve that they're monitored by
like 10, 10 different people.
And they're, they're well secured
according to the company, according to
colossal. Say they get out. Right. This
is what we're always worried as
(26:59):
biologists in conservation.
As we worry about Atlantic salmon being
farmed in open pen nets and what if they
get out? That's a concern that, you know,
the aquaculture facilities as well as
biologists and the government are all
worried about what if they get out and
what if they interact with gray wolves
within their area, right?
They're obviously in probably a similar
(27:20):
habitat. That's why they're located. We
don't know where they're located, but we
know they're in northern in northern US.
What if that again, what if these animals
start to interact and start to breed with
these animals? Could this, even though
there's the small amount of genes that
are changed, could this
affect the local population?
(27:41):
Especially as an invasive species.
Okay. So, so those are the things, you
know, when, when scientists are always
not the fun ones at the party is because
we're always the ones calculating risk.
Yes. Yes. In our mind, calculating risk.
(28:02):
So absolutely, this is not a different
species. We know that they can interbreed
with gray wolves. We know that even a
really protected habitat that the the
chance of escape is always there. It's
never 100% full proof. So, so this animal
(28:25):
is larger looks different.
We actually the the laboratory
experiments were not properly done to
understand how the selective advantage.
Will it out compete gray wolves with will
the hybrids out compete natural gray
wolves we actually like the the
(28:48):
difference between an academic study
where a lot of the checks and balances
through the repeated laboratory
experiments are done.
And the paper is published. This is a
case where the pups were made the moment
is celebrated, but we actually don't have
all the answers yet. So the word invasive
(29:08):
species could be the reality. So, you
know, right now they're saying they're
not slated for release.
But you know, the discussion is always
there. Yeah, if the decision is made, you
know, five, 10 years from now or two
years from now that there's a possibility
of release. Let us remember that there is
(29:31):
no actual, you know, border in the wild
between states between provinces. These
animals can get anywhere and they are
predators. So they're,
they're top of the line.
I mentioned breeding, but you're looking
at affecting, you know, prey species and
and food for other like that could affect
(29:51):
the food availability for other wolf
wolves and so forth. So that could that
that's something I never really thought
of. But obviously something
that you have to think about.
And now, you know, we don't know if they
plan on making more. We don't know if
this is an ongoing breeding breeding
program. So we'll let colossal decide
that and announce that in terms of
because we don't know that. But it's
(30:12):
definitely a consideration. Obviously, if
they continue to breed them, they're
going to have to do something with them.
They can't just use a 2000 acre park.
Now, it would be cool if people could see
them and people can look at them. I think
again, like just to see if they do
express that those genes later on in life
as they become an adult and see what they can do.
And if they do express that those genes later on in life as they become an adult
and see what this ancient species look
like or this, you know, 10,000 year old
(30:33):
species look like. I think it would be
kind of kind of an interesting thing from
a scientific point of view and definitely
interesting for for for other people that
that are, you know, want to know more
about about animals. Now, it's
interesting. I was I was reading on the
CBC article where Colossal like the CEO
Ben Lam says that, you know, the project
started out two years ago to get people
(30:54):
talking about
endangered red wolf populations.
And they said with this technology,
they've actually used a less invasive
technique it developed while working with
diarwolves. They actually produce clone
for cloned red wolves. Now, you are
involved in a lot of, you know, in vitro
fertilization and, you know, taking those
eggs, experiment and being able to.
(31:32):
We don't understand why this is so hard to explain. But this is the 00 sorry, 20 fact agent. Now, this it the game's
sort of cliché joke in that now. the ancient DNA to produce clones of, you
know, present-day DNA, correct?
Correct, correct. And in fact, Toronto
Zoo has red wolf sperm
frozen in its cryobank.
(31:53):
We were one of the original partners in
the Red Wolf Project in the 90s and 2000s
where we were trying to develop
artificial
insemination programs. So we're
kind of connected in the past. But the
Red Wolf is a species where we've got
genetic diversity in the biobank,
you know, a number of males going back
(32:15):
almost to the founders. So there's a lot
of genetic diversity present.
Think about that 35-year frozen bison
calf. We can have 30-year-old
frozen red wolf pups as well.
So when you're looking at a species like
Red Wolf, I don't see the need for these
really high end genetic editing
(32:38):
technologies to to ensure the genetic
diversity of the Red Wolf right now.
Okay. And now we are going to go a little
bit beyond the dire wolves now because
this this company has also come out and
said it has DNA, not intact DNA, but DNA
from woolly mammoths, the thylacine, I
think, which is the Tasmanian tiger.
(33:00):
Ancient species that have been extinct
and the dodo bird, which is pretty much
the representative for all extinct
species. You know, everybody's it's part
of that. That, you know, that expression,
the way of the dodo, meaning it's going
out the window kind of thing. It's it's
going to go extinct. These are other
species. But, you know, the woolly
mammoth is one that's that's
interesting. A large animal.
(33:21):
Obviously, people have been, you know,
bringing it back in movies and, you know,
cartoons and it's it's a it's an
interesting animal, obviously, because
we're like the elephant is such an iconic
animal present day that the woolly
mammoth becomes iconic as well from an
ancient perspective.
They say that they are on their way to
actually producing a woolly mammoth. Now,
(33:43):
woolly mammoths like environments that
are very similar to
Canadian environments.
Where do they like? I guess the question
is like, where do they plan on putting
these these animals? I know this is a
company that's US based and then maybe
they try and put it, you know, northern
part. But we're talking about dire
wolves. We're talking about woolly
mammoths. And I'm not sure about the
(34:05):
Tasmanian tiger or the dodo, but these
are both animals that like cold areas
like colder temperatures.
I'm going to go out and say tundra Arctic
tundra, like very like colder animals.
Obviously, they had the fur on them. I
guess the question is, is one, where are
we going to put them? And is it right to
(34:26):
bring them back during a time where the
earth is warming? You know what I mean?
Like we're an unprecedented warming due
to humans. Is it ethically right to bring
these animals back in
such a bad situation?
So again, these are these are really
great questions with the dire wolf and
the woolly mammoth. We're talking about
(34:47):
two species that had a native range in in
what is present day Canada. Right. So, so
that's why we should be paying attention.
Because, you know, they would do very
well in our ecosystems up here. The
tricky thing is that the environment
(35:07):
today in the north or across Canada is
not what it was in the ice age when they
were last here. It is
a different ecosystem.
And so not knowing the gene edits that
will be done to create the woolly mammoth
or the the full dire wolf. We really
(35:30):
don't have an understanding of how
they're going to perform in today's
environment. And remember you you earlier
on had said about like our nutrition team
understanding the nutrition, not only in
human care, but in the world.
So what what is left for them? What truly
will they eat? Not only to you know, we
(35:53):
say in the zoo world, it's not about just
surviving. It's about thriving. Yes, yes.
You don't want to release them to the
wild to hang on like to barely survive.
They need to be able to thrive and build
population. So yeah, can we offer that?
Yeah, I don't think we know. Yeah.
Well, and even thinking here's my marine
(36:14):
biology brain going off here. You got you
got a polar bear population who is
suffering because they can't be on ice
floats as much because of the melting sea
ice. So they can't hunt as as what they
used to be. So now there's evidence to
show that they are spending more time on
land to try and find berries and food.
And but there's not much in
the Arctic in terms of that.
(36:35):
If you put a wooly mammoth in the Arctic,
those polar bears might thrive just from
hunting wooly man. I don't know if that's
going to happen or if that would ever
happen, but that might actually save that
species. Now, of course, I do this in
just because you know, you just you just
think like out of the box kind of thing.
But you know, we are not bringing back
(36:56):
species to help other species because we
can't control what happens in nature.
And I think humans are often thought to
have doing like we've done that in the
past and it's it's failed miserably with
invasive species and introducing species
that they that we shouldn't have in it
affecting the rest of the environment. So
we even though we understand more of the
intricacies of food webs and so forth, I
(37:16):
feel like it's difficult to to do that
kind of thing. But yeah, from an ethical
standpoint, you know, looking at there's
so many things to to to address.
Hopefully, you know, colossal has some answers as the same thing.
With that,istry, and universal.
(37:58):
Overall from your perspective, personally
and scientifically,
is this something, what
do you think about all of this?
In terms of, obviously we know what you
think about in terms of the science.
It's really interesting that they're able
to do multiple
different segments and gene
expressions, which I think is really,
obviously I agree with
(38:19):
you, it's really cool.
But with the whole press release, with
the whole idea of
de-extinction, what are your
thoughts on that from a scientific point
of view, this whole thing?
You know, I'm a
biotechnologist by training, right?
Those of us at reproductive technology,
we're biotechnologists.
(38:40):
And as much as I've spent my entire
career working in
biotechnology, what I'm realizing
is that we have to
connect humans to nature.
The way for us to stay healthy, like the
planetary health, global health, one
health, the way for humans, animals,
(39:02):
plants and the environment to continue to
be healthy is that we
have to connect to it.
And I think by giving us an out, this
type of synthesized nature, whether we're
synthesizing animals or plants or, you
know, aquatics or things in the sky,
(39:23):
it's an easy out.
It doesn't necessarily
connect people to nature.
And that's the one thing that I think
we're missing to create
that nature positive world.
The Red Wolf is still having problems,
not because we didn't set up a cryobank,
but because humans refuse to live with
(39:43):
them and we're
shooting them, poisoning them.
And there was roadkill
and other challenges.
So, so like it's time for humans to step
up and not not think that there's there's
a tech out, an easy out technology is
going to give us an easy out.
And I feel as though, you know, having
(40:05):
this these these cryobanks, having the
ability to repopulate is a tool in the
tool, the conservation tool belt, but
it's not the tool that we need to think
we're not just going to start producing
and then do whatever we
want with these animals.
That's not what we do.
We want to make sure that we conserve
what we have right there and not affect
the rest of the environment.
And if we could reproduce them and help
(40:25):
the species, that's great.
But it's a species that's today living
today having intact DNA, right?
Exactly.
You know, the key word in reproductive
technology is assisted
reproductive technology.
It's to assist as needed
not to create from scratch.
Gotcha.
Now, I have to ask this question because
everybody in the comments every time they
(40:47):
see something when it comes to cryogenic
labs and bringing back
species and this is for fun.
How close are we to Jurassic Park?
My lifetime.
Bringing back dynamic.
We're able to bring back the wooly man
with are we able to bring back dinosaurs?
Is that like with
(41:08):
bird DNA like with birds?
Are we able to do that?
You know what?
My understanding is that perhaps the DNA
is just too fragmented.
Gotcha.
So again, you know, colossal is
developing the steps to get there.
But but I think we're talking about
species where where we just
(41:28):
don't have enough intact DNA.
Gotcha.
Well, that's really great.
Gabby, this has been fantastic.
Again, I really appreciate you doing this
on such short notice and bringing your
scientific expertise and
your personal expertise.
I really appreciate all the work that you
do for the zoo and what you've been doing
for conservation and coming on here and
giving our audience a great perspective
(41:49):
on what's been happening with with these
dire wolves and colossal.
And thank you so much.
I'd love to have you
back on the podcast again.
Wonderful.
I'll take up the invitation and and in
return, I want to thank you
for sharing these stories.
I think it's important for everyone to
have a deep understanding and and then be
able to to form their own thoughts.
(42:09):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I'm going to tell us the people I
know I have a lot of people
who listen across the world.
But if you're ever in Toronto, go visit
the Toronto Zoo, talk to the zookeepers.
They know a lot about about these animals
and they can talk a lot
about the cryogenics lab.
They can talk a lot about the research on
not only the conservation, but the
welfare of the animals.
You guys do a great job
(42:30):
in communicating that.
And I really appreciate it.
So for the audience members for coming to
Toronto, let me know and I'll come with
you and I'll we'll we'll we'll be able to
talk all about that.
So thank you again, Gabby.
Really appreciate it.
We'd love to have you back on.
Excellent.
Have a great day.
Thanks.
You too.
Thank you, Gabby, for joining us on
today's episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean podcast.
It was great to have you on.
(42:50):
Great to be able to
answer those questions.
I hope you're listening to this and
saying, hey, you know what?
Like I'm an audience member.
I talk.
I come here to hear about the
ocean to hear about science.
This is an interesting science news piece
because it was it was worldwide in a time
where the new cycle sucks.
And we're always hearing
about disappointing news.
(43:11):
This is kind of something that
was like, hey, you know what?
This is cool news.
This is something interesting is
something that you can talk to people
about in a positive way.
And I wanted to make sure that you had
all the resources and understood all of
the implications of a significant
achievement like this.
And I think that's what I wanted to do
for today's episode is just
(43:32):
to give you the information.
And Gabby obviously had an amazing
expertise background.
She brought the
information like no other.
And I'm really happy that I
got to have her on the podcast.
I asked her yesterday
and she did it like today.
Today is Wednesday.
I'm going to release this on a Friday.
But I asked her on a Tuesday.
She says, yes, I'm available.
And she was able to do this.
(43:52):
And not only does she did
it in such great fashion.
So I really appreciate Gabby for for
being on the show and for bringing us the
information that we needed to know about
these direwalls or these genetically
modified gray whales.
So and answering the questions and
talking about questions around marketing
and PR for these types of species.
And is it people are like, hey, we
brought the direwalls back and is it but
(44:14):
it's not really a direwolf from a
scientific point of view.
And there are scientific regulations and
functions that we have to follow around
naming certain species or coming up with
a different species just because they may
look like a different species.
Doesn't mean genetically
they are a different species.
And I really loved how Gabby highlighted
(44:34):
that aspect that we used to be species on
morphology, but we don't do that anymore
because we have the genetic material or
ability to read the genetic material.
Now we look at it, how
diverse they are from genetics.
And look, this happens every once in a
while where we see, you know, we see
species like say fish species that we
think are a large population.
And then we do the genetic, you know, we
(44:56):
do the genetic comparison of different
like subpopulations.
And we find out that one population is
genetically different from another
population that could be because they
were isolated a hundred years ago, two
thousand years ago, ten
thousand years ago geographically.
And so they came up with their own
genetic mutations and they started to
develop that way and evolve that way.
But morphologically, like
outside, they look the same.
(45:17):
So we just assume
that they were the same.
And when we categorize based on
morphology, we
categorize it the same way.
Now we're being able to look at the
genetic material and understanding that
when we compare them,
some of them are different.
We look at it.
Are they new species?
And is that new species species at risk
because they don't have the population
numbers to say, hey,
we're a healthy population.
We have to find out more about that.
(45:39):
And it incurs more research.
It inspires more research.
It demands more research to be able to
make sure that we protect that species.
So this gets into a whole other side of
biology, a whole other side of genetics
and conservation biology.
And I think it's extremely important to
talk about something that we don't talk
about on this podcast at all.
(46:00):
This is the first time
we've really talked about it.
And I'm really happy that
Gabby was able to join us.
And I hope you got what you came for.
I hope you got the information that you
needed to say, hey, when people talk to
you, it's like, hey, I was
listening to this podcast.
This is what they said
they're an expert on.
You know, it's a cool thing that they're
able to modify multiple genes at once and
express it into an animal.
(46:21):
And but there's also a lot of questions
that and implications from this and what
we're going to do in the future.
You know, I think that's something the
questions that become interesting and
what they're going to do with these
species and how much how often are they
going to be reproducing these species?
Is this just three dire wolves and that's
cool or are they going
to be producing more?
What are we going to do with those?
Where are they going to go?
All these questions need to
(46:41):
be answered in time, of course.
But I'd love to hear your
opinion on what's happening.
You know, like the story, the way they
came out, the story, the naming of the
dire wolf compared to a
genetically modified gray wolf.
Do you even care?
I would love to know your opinion.
Hit me up in the comments below if you're
watching this on YouTube.
Or of course, you can always contact me
on Instagram at How To Protect The Ocean.
(47:03):
That's at How To Protect The Ocean.
But thank you again for Gabby.
Thank you for listening to this episode
of the How To Protect The Ocean podcast.
I'm your host, Andrew Lorne from the True
North Strong and Free.
Have a great day.
We'll talk to you next
time and happy conservation.
Did a company bring back the direwolf?
(00:03):
Is it de-extincted, I
guess is the question.
That's the big
question around everything.
And I know you're thinking, Andrew,
this is an ocean podcast.
Like why are we
talking about wolves in this?
Well, one, wolves are cool.
We always love to talk about that.
I'm a Game of Thrones fan.
So dire wolves, obviously a great topic
to discuss on an ocean podcast.
But what we're gonna
be talking about today
on this episode is we're gonna be looking
(00:24):
at the questions surrounding like
bringing back species.
Is it a good idea to do it?
First of all, de-extinct, is
it an actual direwolf species?
And what are the
implications for the ocean?
That's what we're gonna be
talking about on today's episode
of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
Let's start the show.
(00:45):
Hey everybody, welcome
back to this exciting episode
of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
And this is the
podcast where you find out
what's happening with the ocean,
how you could speak up for the ocean
and what you can do to
live for a better ocean
by taking action.
On today's episode, we
have a great one for you.
We have Dr. Gabby Monstrum-Monaco
who is here today from the Toronto Zoo.
(01:05):
She is the chief scientist at the zoo
and she's also in charge of
the cryogenic bank at the zoo
where they actually
have sperm and embryos
from over 400
different species of animals
that are at the zoo
and outside of the zoo
to help preserve genetic diversity.
Now I asked her on the
podcast not only to talk about that
because it works well
(01:27):
with the direwolf thing
because we're talking about genetics,
but I wanted to get her opinions,
her scientific opinions
about what has happened
with this news about bringing back
and de-extincting the direwolf.
Is it a direwolf?
Is it considered a direwolf?
And why are scientists
so obsessed about saying,
"Hey, you know what? It's not a direwolf.
Why are we so worried about that?"
(01:48):
And also it doesn't matter
when the whole context of things.
Then we're gonna ask the question,
"Hey, what are the
implications for conservation?
Are they actually gonna
release these species?
What if they get out from
their enclosure right now?"
We're talking about
wooly mammoths coming back.
There's a lot of
questions that we have to answer
and I wanted to get Gabby on
because she has the
expertise to talk about.
(02:08):
She has the knowledge of this.
She's done read the papers.
She's written papers.
And I think it's really
important that we get somebody
with the expertise on the
podcast to talk about it.
So that's what we're
gonna be talking about today.
I can't wait for you to
listen to this interview
with Dr. Gabby Mastrovodico
from the Toronto Zoo.
Enjoy and I will talk to you after.
Hey Gabby, welcome to the How
to Protect the Ocean podcast.
Are you ready to talk about
(02:29):
genetics and de-extinction?
Hi Andrew. Yes, I am.
Thank you for having me here today.
You bet. Now this is a lot of fun.
This is the first time I've had, Gabby.
This is the first time
I've had you on this podcast,
but we have a bit of a history.
I interviewed you for
the Wild4Life podcast,
the Toronto Zoo podcast
a couple of years ago.
That was a lot of fun.
We talked about what a little bit
(02:50):
of what we're gonna
be talking about today,
talking about the Toronto
Zoo's work with the cryogenics lab
and the work with
preserving genetic diversity
and in some cases producing animals
from in vitro fertilization.
We're gonna talk about your work on that
because it's groundbreaking.
It's a lot of fun to talk about,
but I asked you on the podcast today
because obviously the
news has been flooded
(03:11):
with this idea of de-extinction
and with these dire wolves or gray wolves
that have been genetically altered,
however you wanna see it,
however it's been presented,
has just dominated
the news in a news cycle
that's been pretty bleak
lately with the economy
and everything like that.
So it really brought attention.
It's a topic of a lot of conversation
among scientists and among the public.
(03:32):
So what I wanted to do is have you once
is you have such a great
experience in this research area
and I want to get your thoughts on the
idea of de-extinction
and of course,
repopulation of these animals
that have been coming into play.
So we're gonna talk all about that,
which I can't wait to get into.
But before we do, Gabby,
can you just let us know
who you are and what you do?
(03:55):
Absolutely.
So I'm Gabby Master Monaco.
I'm the chief science
officer at Toronto Zoo
and also the
reproductive biologist for the zoo.
So I'm in this really unique
and lucky privileged position
where I not only get to focus on the
reproductive science
that had been done at the zoo,
(04:15):
but my position has grown a little bit
to look over all the sciences.
So animal wellbeing,
health, welfare, nutrition,
and of course
reproduction and the field teams,
the species recovery teams.
So because it's working
together that we can do good things.
And this is what I love about the zoo.
When I started podcasting for you guys,
(04:38):
I really learned about that
the zoo is not just a place
where you go in and look at animals.
That's just one aspect of it.
What I like to call it is it's a
conservation organization.
It's a facility that
facilitates the conservation
of the animals, not only that you house,
but other animals locally and so forth
and have programs with the community,
have programs really
all around the world.
And that's what I love about the zoo.
(05:00):
And so I really
appreciate the work that you do
and congratulations on the
expansion of that position
that you were in, much is well deserved.
And I know that they are going to be,
the people there are going to be,
not only the members of the zoo,
but also the people who
are there for the zoo,
the staff and stuff that are
going to enjoy what you do.
(05:20):
And so I really appreciate
you coming on the podcast.
And I know I asked you
last minute to come on
because we're going to talk about this
idea for de-extinction.
But what I want to first get into is just
kind of give an idea
of what you do, like the cryogenics lab
and the purpose of the
cryogenics lab at the zoo.
Can you tell us a
little bit about sort of
like a brief history
of like how it started,
(05:41):
why it started and then what you do
with all the things
at the cryogenics lab?
So you've hit on one of my favourite
topics and I'll try to
be succinct about it.
But so obviously Toronto Zoo has the only
reproductive science
program in a zoo in Canada.
And so I mean, preserving genetic
(06:01):
diversity can be done in a
number of different ways.
We can naturally breed animals and
release them into the wild.
But at Toronto Zoo, we also use
alternative strategies, which is assisted
reproduction as well.
And because we work with artificial
insemination, in vitro
fertilization, producing embryos.
(06:22):
But the most important thing of all of
that is that we can freeze them as well.
So storing in liquid nitrogen means that
that genetic material that is present
today can be captured forever.
As long as we monitor those tanks and
look after them, we can take the
snapshots in time of the
species that are around.
(06:43):
So our biobank is 40 years old. I'm
trying to do the math in my head.
40 years old.
Yeah, pushing.
Yeah, 40 years old, 1980, right?
Just yeah, just over 40 years old.
And we've been diligently not only
cryopreserving samples from our own
(07:03):
animals, we support zoos across Canada.
And of course, samples from the wild that
that's the new area that we need to get
into and have started working on.
Now, when we talk about this genetic
material, like this DNA that's preserved,
we're talking about intact DNA.
Like this is not just DNA that's taken
from a fossil or taken from something
(07:25):
that's been that was, you know, died
10,000 years ago or plus this is we're
talking about things that have that like
DNA material that's intact that have been
taking over the last 40 years because
that's how long like, you know, within
that that time span.
So like if you were to unfreeze it and I
know obviously I'm simplifying that the
process here, but if you were unfreeze
some of that genetic material, that
(07:46):
genetic material would be intact if you
want to use it, correct?
So that is the important distinction.
There's a lot of wildlife
biobanks around the world.
Our amazing Canadian Museum of Nature has
Canada's biodiversity biobank.
But when you're thinking of that DNA,
whether it's ancestral or modern DNA,
(08:08):
it's just frozen dead material.
So you can get DNA out of it.
But the cryobank or biobank at the
Toronto Zoo has living cells, living
sperm, living embryos, living skin cells
from which we can just take DNA to
sequence it or whatever
we want to do with it.
(08:29):
But we can also create offspring.
So with with that, that nice clean modern
living cells that are frozen away, we can
apply the reproductive technologies that
are available to us.
That's amazing. If we just talk about the
bison program, because this is something
that I brag to people about because I'm
(08:49):
so proud, not only to be from Toronto,
but to be Canadian to be just say like,
hey, this has happened locally.
And it's not an easy thing to do.
This is something that takes
years and years of research.
But can you talk about the program and
what it's been able to accomplish?
You know, it's been a
it's been a long ago.
We started 2007, 2008.
(09:10):
So we're looking at over 15 years of
really methodical and diligent trials,
not only at Toronto Zoo, but this is a
really important partnership with
University of
Saskatchewan and Parks Canada.
And of course, partnerships and
collaboration are the foundation of good
research and good conservation.
(09:31):
So, you know, we were interested in the
challenges that were happening in the
wild with the disease issue.
Of course, there's some really
genetically valuable animals that have
tuberculosis, brucellosis.
And we knew that we could take sperm,
embryos, we can hopefully disinfect them
of those diseases and
(09:52):
bank clean genetics.
So clean living sperm and embryos that
can be used in the future to repopulate
these disease free herds.
And and there's been a couple of really
important firsts that
come out of this project.
But of course, at Toronto Zoo, a few
years ago, you might remember we had a
calf born a bison calf born from sperm
(10:14):
that had been frozen for 35 years.
And that is the oldest, like living sperm
frozen that resulted in a live calf from
artificial insemination.
So and that would mean again, just to
simplify, that would mean so you took
that that sperm from 35 years ago, you
inseminate into an embryo and then a
(10:34):
bison like a female bison carried that
that fetus and then gave birth.
Is that correct?
Yes. So in this case, we didn't make the
embryo in the lab, but so we thought this
35 year frozen sperm, we put it into the
female who was synchronized to the right
time of the cycle. And she carried the
embryo in the fetus to term.
(10:57):
It's it's so funny when you say it
because every time you say is like the
timing had to be perfect. You know,
you're looking at this, you know, you
don't want to waste the sperm. Obviously,
it's it's very valuable from a genetic
diversity standpoint.
Plus, like the age of it and and just
sort of the sensitivity of the process
itself. And it's just amazing how this is
what happened. We got we got a bison now
(11:18):
in the purpose of this program and many
other programs at the zoo is to preserve
genetic diversity to
preserve the species.
So one of the things that the zoo does
and many other zoos in North America is
they they team up and and try to mate
animals of the same species that have a
optimal genetic diversity.
So if they made it, they would like that
(11:40):
offspring would have that optimal
diversity so that you can preserve the
different genetic diversity.
Can you talk about the importance of
preserving that genetic
diversity within a species?
Yeah, so I really like how you describe
that we we take a lot of care in how we
pair the animals so that we make sure
(12:02):
there's no inbreeding and they're they're
genetically diverse.
But the importance of genetic diversity
is the long term health of the
population. So you need genetic diversity
to be able to adapt to
changing environments.
You need genetic diversity to stay
healthy, to have good immune systems, to
(12:23):
combat disease and natural changes or
anthropogenic. So human induced changes
as well. So yeah, genetic diversity is is
the foundation of long term success.
Yeah, it's a it's a conservation staple
to you, right? When you talk about
species diversity, we talk about
community diversity, ecosystem diversity,
(12:44):
but really down when you get down to it,
it's that genetic diversity to make sure
that population could be stable.
And I really appreciate the amount of
work that your team, you and your team
have done, as well as your partners with
the universities and Parks Canada have
done to help preserve and help, you know,
I guess, conserve
this population of bison.
And hopefully one day when that disease
(13:06):
is eradicated in in the wild, or it's
it's gotten to a manageable point. The
goal is to take the bison of that have
that do not have the disease in the zoo
that you've been able to successfully
breed and put them into
into the wild. Is that correct?
Yes, so ultimately, I mean, the whether
(13:27):
it's in the biobank or whether they're in
managed settings like zoos, these animals
are the insurance for those future
reintroductions. Now, sometimes
reintroducing a species does not happen
right away, because we've got to look
after the habitat, we've got to make sure
they're somewhere proper to put them back
(13:47):
so that they survive.
And with that, too, is another thing I
learned at the zoo. It's the nutrition
aspect, right? Is can that population
hold enough enough animals that will
maintain that population? You don't want
to repopulate if there's not enough food
or not enough resources available for
that species to to survive.
And there's a lot that goes in a lot of
(14:08):
calculations, a lot of theoretical
biology that goes on to be able to to
understand that. And I think the
nutrition department at the Toronto Zoo
is very active in those calculations for
other species that I
think is is just wonderful.
Now, let's get into the this is great. I
really appreciate you coming on to talk
about that because that's what I wanted
to to get to get the audience to
(14:28):
understand your background, your
specialization and expertise.
You obviously know that and you've been
already talking to the news about this
new project, I guess it's a company
called Colossal. They've come out with an
announcement that they've produced, quote
unquote, three dire wolves.
(14:49):
Now, the media and the marketing aspect
of it, you have to respect it. They're
coming out saying that these are dire
wolves and we've successfully
de-extincted these three.
Like we brought the dire wolf back.
That's a lot of the the for the first
couple of days anyway, or even the first
day. That was a lot of the
titles on on Time magazine.
(15:09):
I think it had extinct and then they put
a cross. They put a red highlight marker
around it and then they had the dire wolf
there. Now, obviously, it's it's it's
from it from. Well, actually, I should
ask you from from a
scientific point of view.
This is pretty phenomenal, right? Is this
is this something that's like this is
incredible that we were able to do this
(15:30):
as scientists is to inject the dire wolf
DNA into a gray wolf DNA and to be able
to produce an animal
that has dire wolf DNA.
That's pretty incredible, right?
So, obviously, there's a lot of parts to
this big, big picture here. The
(15:53):
techniques that were done are very
impactful and obviously, the funding and
staffing resources at Colossal, they were
able to to ramp up these technologies
very quickly, what might have taken, you
know, a zoo or a university longer to do.
So, so, so technologically speaking,
(16:16):
these are very important advancements for
science in general. Right. Gotcha. Yeah.
Now, one thing that I always I always
find interesting. You mentioned like they
had the resources, the financial
resources to really
accelerate that process to be.
I looked at the number was 435 million
dollars. Now, we biologists salivate at
(16:40):
that amount of money. You know what I
mean? Because as you well know, that goes
a long way in conservation, not
restoration, but in conservation. It
takes a lot of money.
It always is more expensive when you
restore a habitat or you restore species
in this case, right? 435 million dollars
to get this thing started. Who knows how
much is going to cost for other species?
(17:01):
And maybe that will get cheaper if this
continues on. That's a topic that we'll
talk about in a bit.
But I feel as though, you know, that's a
lot of money that could be put towards
other things in conservation, which we'll
get to in a little bit. But the science
of it, you're right. I feel like it's
pretty cool that we were able to do that.
Now, the question I ask you and you're
(17:24):
like, I feel you have the expertise to
really answer this and I'm sure you've
thought about a lot of the ethical ways
and even the scientific ways of how do
we, you know, consider this a dire wolf
species, right? Because if you if you
really think about the information that's
come out that a lot of people probably
know is that, you know, this this chain
of DNA that the Grey Wolf has is probably
(17:45):
like, you know, 22 to
23,000 genes within the DNA.
And this is an estimate. This is what I'm
getting off of reports. I don't know for
sure. But this is around the thing. They
did like, I think it was like, it was
either like 20 different changes to 14
genes or 14 different changes to 20 of
those segments. So very, very small
percentage of the Grey Wolf was altered
(18:07):
of the DNA, a Grey Wolf, the day it was
altered for dire wolf characteristics.
So, from a scientific like taxonomy point
of view, what do we consider is this
considered like a new species or the dire
wolf species? How do is it? Are there
like certain regulations or credentials
(18:29):
that that scientists follow that will
that we would say, yes, this is a dire
wolf species or no, this is just a
genetically altered Grey Wolf species.
That is very important question. And I
think people need to understand the the
regulatory part of it and and then can
(18:49):
make up their mind. So, you know, science
is very methodical and the definition of
species, how years ago it
was based on morphology.
And I think we've moved away from that
because we know that morphology doesn't
give you the entire picture. So now we
are using genetics to make sure that
they're different species. Doing it was
(19:12):
20 edits on 14 genes.
I always get those mixed up.
But minuscule minuscule. Yeah. Yeah, it
really is just genetic modification. It
is not a new species. And if you think,
as an example, I have a Maltese at home,
right? My Maltese is not a great day. But
(19:33):
I'll guarantee there's you know, 20 size
and co color edits between the Maltese
and the Great Dane, maybe 50, maybe 10.
But but to do morphology based changes
and then declared a new species is not
telling the full truth. A species is much
(19:54):
more complex than co color and size.
And I think that's what they were
according to a lot of the PR and a lot of
the articles that Colossus, the colossal
came out with. So not necessarily with
where other scientists were like yourself
or other other experts
were commenting on it.
This is what they put out as their as
their PR, you know, a lot of them saying
(20:16):
we just want to see if we could make a
dire wolf like our species that would
express the dire wolf gene. So having I
think they said a main or even being like
six feet long, I think are some of the
characteristics that that
they that they discussed.
They they never actually came out and
said this is a dire wolf species.
However, a lot of the media came out and
(20:37):
saying, hey, the dire wolf is back, the
dire wolf back. And of course, the dire
wolf is very popular in in
the Game of Thrones version.
They even had George R.R. Martin, you
know, as part of the photo shoot, he even
cried when he saw them and they're
beautiful puppies. Like, let's be honest
as animal lovers, you know, you want to
hug them and you want to play with them.
However, there, you know, there was I
(20:59):
think a lot of scientists are up in arms
because, you know, people are calling
this, you know, they brought back the
dire, the dire wolf. That's not the case.
Correct? Is that like from a scientific
point of view, they didn't
bring back a dire wolf, right?
Correct. So one to say to announce that,
you know, some really amazing lab
(21:21):
experiments were done. Really, what the
advancement is, is the ability to edit
more than one gene or low site at a time.
So they made 20 edits at the same time.
That's that's called multiplex gene
editing spectacular. I mean, that that is
an advancement. The challenge scientists
(21:44):
are having is to say that anything was
resurrected or de extincted, or even that
it is a different species is really, you
know, skewing the
reality of what a species is.
Right. So if we're going to, you know,
there's a pop culture involved here, you
(22:05):
said it, this is Game of Thrones land,
which I sadly didn't watch, but now I
might go back and watch. But but we are
in the pop culture and people want to
call them dire wolves. So, you know, and
from a pop culture stance,
okay, you know, that's fine.
But from a scientific communication
(22:26):
standpoint, we have to stay true to the
science. So we do have to call them
genetically modified organisms, rather
than a new species. They're genetically
modified gray wolves. Yeah, right.
Gotcha. Now I have to ask this as someone
who works for the zoo and the zoo is
very, very big on not only having, you
know, scientists and experts, but also
(22:46):
being able to communicate that
science to the public, right?
Every one of you at the staff there are
very good at discussing about the
animals, the different characteristics,
their personalities of the animals that
you have at the zoo, but also the work
that you do, which is very complex. You
have to have that ability to say that to
a public audience that may or may not
have the background, like a biology
(23:07):
background or anything
like a science background.
And you guys are very good at doing what
you do. Now here's the question I pose to
you. Okay. The media comes out saying
dire wolves are back, right? De extinct. Everything like that.
Scientists come out and be like, well,
actually hold on a second. Like that's
not the case in this particular point,
but everybody's excited that this dire
(23:29):
wolf is back. And this is the first time
they've some of them have most of them
have ever heard of this type of, you
know, of this technology is
biotechnologies to bring in. So they get
excited about that, especially in a new
cycle. That is, let's be honest, crap
right now. Like it's not very nice. So we have this, like, you know, some of the things that we're doing that are really, really cool.
We have this, like, you know, scientists
are always, I always feel like the
(23:49):
scientists are like the parents of, of,
you know, the public words like, yeah, it
is kind of cool, but it's not quite the
way it is. And they're all
just like, you ruin everything.
Like, you know, it's almost that
perception as a scientist where you have
to say it because we're scientists, but
also people are like, but dire wolves,
like we want dire wolves. How do you deal
with that where you can speak
(24:10):
intelligently on the subject?
But in a way where you're not seen as,
you know, downing the the the the this
new sort of announcement.
Okay, that's a really important question.
And I think that's what really good
science communicators are about. And
(24:31):
perhaps because we work in zoos and our
goal is to educate as well as doing
science, we really focus on educating
from like two-year-olds
to 72 year olds. We have to, you know,
master the span of the language. But I
think what is really important is to
(24:52):
celebrate the science, the science that
was done needs to be celebrated in the
sense that they are developing
technologies that can be
useful for many things.
But then we need to stay true to science.
And one of the reasons is because it is a
very difficult time in the world now,
(25:14):
where, you know, people are questioning
what is being said in social media, on
the internet. And if scientists don't say
stay true to the word, to the science,
then it becomes a slippery slope for
scientific integrity.
So we celebrate what was done. But then
(25:34):
we clearly state that, you know, we'd
like to call these genetically modified
gray wolves. Right. But we celebrate how
they got there. Exactly. Yeah. And I
agree with you. I think that's that's
really important,
especially from a public perception.
Like we know scientists sometimes in the
public are not really seen as, you know,
the regular people that everybody that we
(25:55):
are, you know, and this is why I started
the podcast is to get to know people and
and how we behave and what our likes and
dislikes are and then how we feel about
certain topics like this.
But it's also when when we get an idea
like this, they're not just the questions
of this is great technology and this is
really cool. And we celebrate it. But
there are a lot of thoughts from an
(26:16):
ethical point of view of what we're doing
here. And I'd like to talk about this for
the rest of the interview. And that is,
okay, so now we have these these wolves,
these genetically modified wolves,
modified wolves with
dire wolf genes in them.
This means that there's genes in this
these wolves. We don't know if they're
going to be dominant. We don't know if
(26:37):
they're going to be recessive. We have no
idea. They are in a two thousand acre
park or reserve that they're monitored by
like 10, 10 different people.
And they're, they're well secured
according to the company, according to
colossal. Say they get out. Right. This
is what we're always worried as
(26:59):
biologists in conservation.
As we worry about Atlantic salmon being
farmed in open pen nets and what if they
get out? That's a concern that, you know,
the aquaculture facilities as well as
biologists and the government are all
worried about what if they get out and
what if they interact with gray wolves
within their area, right?
They're obviously in probably a similar
(27:20):
habitat. That's why they're located. We
don't know where they're located, but we
know they're in northern in northern US.
What if that again, what if these animals
start to interact and start to breed with
these animals? Could this, even though
there's the small amount of genes that
are changed, could this
affect the local population?
(27:41):
Especially as an invasive species.
Okay. So, so those are the things, you
know, when, when scientists are always
not the fun ones at the party is because
we're always the ones calculating risk.
Yes. Yes. In our mind, calculating risk.
(28:02):
So absolutely, this is not a different
species. We know that they can interbreed
with gray wolves. We know that even a
really protected habitat that the the
chance of escape is always there. It's
never 100% full proof. So, so this animal
(28:25):
is larger looks different.
We actually the the laboratory
experiments were not properly done to
understand how the selective advantage.
Will it out compete gray wolves with will
the hybrids out compete natural gray
wolves we actually like the the
(28:48):
difference between an academic study
where a lot of the checks and balances
through the repeated laboratory
experiments are done.
And the paper is published. This is a
case where the pups were made the moment
is celebrated, but we actually don't have
all the answers yet. So the word invasive
(29:08):
species could be the reality. So, you
know, right now they're saying they're
not slated for release.
But you know, the discussion is always
there. Yeah, if the decision is made, you
know, five, 10 years from now or two
years from now that there's a possibility
of release. Let us remember that there is
(29:31):
no actual, you know, border in the wild
between states between provinces. These
animals can get anywhere and they are
predators. So they're,
they're top of the line.
I mentioned breeding, but you're looking
at affecting, you know, prey species and
and food for other like that could affect
(29:51):
the food availability for other wolf
wolves and so forth. So that could that
that's something I never really thought
of. But obviously something
that you have to think about.
And now, you know, we don't know if they
plan on making more. We don't know if
this is an ongoing breeding breeding
program. So we'll let colossal decide
that and announce that in terms of
because we don't know that. But it's
(30:12):
definitely a consideration. Obviously, if
they continue to breed them, they're
going to have to do something with them.
They can't just use a 2000 acre park.
Now, it would be cool if people could see
them and people can look at them. I think
again, like just to see if they do
express that those genes later on in life
as they become an adult and see what they can do.
And if they do express that those genes later on in life as they become an adult
and see what this ancient species look
like or this, you know, 10,000 year old
(30:33):
species look like. I think it would be
kind of kind of an interesting thing from
a scientific point of view and definitely
interesting for for for other people that
that are, you know, want to know more
about about animals. Now, it's
interesting. I was I was reading on the
CBC article where Colossal like the CEO
Ben Lam says that, you know, the project
started out two years ago to get people
(30:54):
talking about
endangered red wolf populations.
And they said with this technology,
they've actually used a less invasive
technique it developed while working with
diarwolves. They actually produce clone
for cloned red wolves. Now, you are
involved in a lot of, you know, in vitro
fertilization and, you know, taking those
eggs, experiment and being able to.
(31:32):
We don't understand why this is so hard to explain. But this is the 00 sorry, 20 fact agent. Now, this it the game's
sort of cliché joke in that now. the ancient DNA to produce clones of, you
know, present-day DNA, correct?
Correct, correct. And in fact, Toronto
Zoo has red wolf sperm
frozen in its cryobank.
(31:53):
We were one of the original partners in
the Red Wolf Project in the 90s and 2000s
where we were trying to develop
artificial
insemination programs. So we're
kind of connected in the past. But the
Red Wolf is a species where we've got
genetic diversity in the biobank,
you know, a number of males going back
(32:15):
almost to the founders. So there's a lot
of genetic diversity present.
Think about that 35-year frozen bison
calf. We can have 30-year-old
frozen red wolf pups as well.
So when you're looking at a species like
Red Wolf, I don't see the need for these
really high end genetic editing
(32:38):
technologies to to ensure the genetic
diversity of the Red Wolf right now.
Okay. And now we are going to go a little
bit beyond the dire wolves now because
this this company has also come out and
said it has DNA, not intact DNA, but DNA
from woolly mammoths, the thylacine, I
think, which is the Tasmanian tiger.
(33:00):
Ancient species that have been extinct
and the dodo bird, which is pretty much
the representative for all extinct
species. You know, everybody's it's part
of that. That, you know, that expression,
the way of the dodo, meaning it's going
out the window kind of thing. It's it's
going to go extinct. These are other
species. But, you know, the woolly
mammoth is one that's that's
interesting. A large animal.
(33:21):
Obviously, people have been, you know,
bringing it back in movies and, you know,
cartoons and it's it's a it's an
interesting animal, obviously, because
we're like the elephant is such an iconic
animal present day that the woolly
mammoth becomes iconic as well from an
ancient perspective.
They say that they are on their way to
actually producing a woolly mammoth. Now,
(33:43):
woolly mammoths like environments that
are very similar to
Canadian environments.
Where do they like? I guess the question
is like, where do they plan on putting
these these animals? I know this is a
company that's US based and then maybe
they try and put it, you know, northern
part. But we're talking about dire
wolves. We're talking about woolly
mammoths. And I'm not sure about the
(34:05):
Tasmanian tiger or the dodo, but these
are both animals that like cold areas
like colder temperatures.
I'm going to go out and say tundra Arctic
tundra, like very like colder animals.
Obviously, they had the fur on them. I
guess the question is, is one, where are
we going to put them? And is it right to
(34:26):
bring them back during a time where the
earth is warming? You know what I mean?
Like we're an unprecedented warming due
to humans. Is it ethically right to bring
these animals back in
such a bad situation?
So again, these are these are really
great questions with the dire wolf and
the woolly mammoth. We're talking about
(34:47):
two species that had a native range in in
what is present day Canada. Right. So, so
that's why we should be paying attention.
Because, you know, they would do very
well in our ecosystems up here. The
tricky thing is that the environment
(35:07):
today in the north or across Canada is
not what it was in the ice age when they
were last here. It is
a different ecosystem.
And so not knowing the gene edits that
will be done to create the woolly mammoth
or the the full dire wolf. We really
(35:30):
don't have an understanding of how
they're going to perform in today's
environment. And remember you you earlier
on had said about like our nutrition team
understanding the nutrition, not only in
human care, but in the world.
So what what is left for them? What truly
will they eat? Not only to you know, we
(35:53):
say in the zoo world, it's not about just
surviving. It's about thriving. Yes, yes.
You don't want to release them to the
wild to hang on like to barely survive.
They need to be able to thrive and build
population. So yeah, can we offer that?
Yeah, I don't think we know. Yeah.
Well, and even thinking here's my marine
(36:14):
biology brain going off here. You got you
got a polar bear population who is
suffering because they can't be on ice
floats as much because of the melting sea
ice. So they can't hunt as as what they
used to be. So now there's evidence to
show that they are spending more time on
land to try and find berries and food.
And but there's not much in
the Arctic in terms of that.
(36:35):
If you put a wooly mammoth in the Arctic,
those polar bears might thrive just from
hunting wooly man. I don't know if that's
going to happen or if that would ever
happen, but that might actually save that
species. Now, of course, I do this in
just because you know, you just you just
think like out of the box kind of thing.
But you know, we are not bringing back
(36:56):
species to help other species because we
can't control what happens in nature.
And I think humans are often thought to
have doing like we've done that in the
past and it's it's failed miserably with
invasive species and introducing species
that they that we shouldn't have in it
affecting the rest of the environment. So
we even though we understand more of the
intricacies of food webs and so forth, I
(37:16):
feel like it's difficult to to do that
kind of thing. But yeah, from an ethical
standpoint, you know, looking at there's
so many things to to to address.
Hopefully, you know, colossal has some answers as the same thing.
With that,istry, and universal.
(37:58):
Overall from your perspective, personally
and scientifically,
is this something, what
do you think about all of this?
In terms of, obviously we know what you
think about in terms of the science.
It's really interesting that they're able
to do multiple
different segments and gene
expressions, which I think is really,
obviously I agree with
(38:19):
you, it's really cool.
But with the whole press release, with
the whole idea of
de-extinction, what are your
thoughts on that from a scientific point
of view, this whole thing?
You know, I'm a
biotechnologist by training, right?
Those of us at reproductive technology,
we're biotechnologists.
(38:40):
And as much as I've spent my entire
career working in
biotechnology, what I'm realizing
is that we have to
connect humans to nature.
The way for us to stay healthy, like the
planetary health, global health, one
health, the way for humans, animals,
(39:02):
plants and the environment to continue to
be healthy is that we
have to connect to it.
And I think by giving us an out, this
type of synthesized nature, whether we're
synthesizing animals or plants or, you
know, aquatics or things in the sky,
(39:23):
it's an easy out.
It doesn't necessarily
connect people to nature.
And that's the one thing that I think
we're missing to create
that nature positive world.
The Red Wolf is still having problems,
not because we didn't set up a cryobank,
but because humans refuse to live with
(39:43):
them and we're
shooting them, poisoning them.
And there was roadkill
and other challenges.
So, so like it's time for humans to step
up and not not think that there's there's
a tech out, an easy out technology is
going to give us an easy out.
And I feel as though, you know, having
(40:05):
this these these cryobanks, having the
ability to repopulate is a tool in the
tool, the conservation tool belt, but
it's not the tool that we need to think
we're not just going to start producing
and then do whatever we
want with these animals.
That's not what we do.
We want to make sure that we conserve
what we have right there and not affect
the rest of the environment.
And if we could reproduce them and help
(40:25):
the species, that's great.
But it's a species that's today living
today having intact DNA, right?
Exactly.
You know, the key word in reproductive
technology is assisted
reproductive technology.
It's to assist as needed
not to create from scratch.
Gotcha.
Now, I have to ask this question because
everybody in the comments every time they
(40:47):
see something when it comes to cryogenic
labs and bringing back
species and this is for fun.
How close are we to Jurassic Park?
My lifetime.
Bringing back dynamic.
We're able to bring back the wooly man
with are we able to bring back dinosaurs?
Is that like with
(41:08):
bird DNA like with birds?
Are we able to do that?
You know what?
My understanding is that perhaps the DNA
is just too fragmented.
Gotcha.
So again, you know, colossal is
developing the steps to get there.
But but I think we're talking about
species where where we just
(41:28):
don't have enough intact DNA.
Gotcha.
Well, that's really great.
Gabby, this has been fantastic.
Again, I really appreciate you doing this
on such short notice and bringing your
scientific expertise and
your personal expertise.
I really appreciate all the work that you
do for the zoo and what you've been doing
for conservation and coming on here and
giving our audience a great perspective
(41:49):
on what's been happening with with these
dire wolves and colossal.
And thank you so much.
I'd love to have you
back on the podcast again.
Wonderful.
I'll take up the invitation and and in
return, I want to thank you
for sharing these stories.
I think it's important for everyone to
have a deep understanding and and then be
able to to form their own thoughts.
(42:09):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I'm going to tell us the people I
know I have a lot of people
who listen across the world.
But if you're ever in Toronto, go visit
the Toronto Zoo, talk to the zookeepers.
They know a lot about about these animals
and they can talk a lot
about the cryogenics lab.
They can talk a lot about the research on
not only the conservation, but the
welfare of the animals.
You guys do a great job
(42:30):
in communicating that.
And I really appreciate it.
So for the audience members for coming to
Toronto, let me know and I'll come with
you and I'll we'll we'll we'll be able to
talk all about that.
So thank you again, Gabby.
Really appreciate it.
We'd love to have you back on.
Excellent.
Have a great day.
Thanks.
You too.
Thank you, Gabby, for joining us on
today's episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean podcast.
It was great to have you on.
(42:50):
Great to be able to
answer those questions.
I hope you're listening to this and
saying, hey, you know what?
Like I'm an audience member.
I talk.
I come here to hear about the
ocean to hear about science.
This is an interesting science news piece
because it was it was worldwide in a time
where the new cycle sucks.
And we're always hearing
about disappointing news.
(43:11):
This is kind of something that
was like, hey, you know what?
This is cool news.
This is something interesting is
something that you can talk to people
about in a positive way.
And I wanted to make sure that you had
all the resources and understood all of
the implications of a significant
achievement like this.
And I think that's what I wanted to do
for today's episode is just
(43:32):
to give you the information.
And Gabby obviously had an amazing
expertise background.
She brought the
information like no other.
And I'm really happy that I
got to have her on the podcast.
I asked her yesterday
and she did it like today.
Today is Wednesday.
I'm going to release this on a Friday.
But I asked her on a Tuesday.
She says, yes, I'm available.
And she was able to do this.
(43:52):
And not only does she did
it in such great fashion.
So I really appreciate Gabby for for
being on the show and for bringing us the
information that we needed to know about
these direwalls or these genetically
modified gray whales.
So and answering the questions and
talking about questions around marketing
and PR for these types of species.
And is it people are like, hey, we
brought the direwalls back and is it but
(44:14):
it's not really a direwolf from a
scientific point of view.
And there are scientific regulations and
functions that we have to follow around
naming certain species or coming up with
a different species just because they may
look like a different species.
Doesn't mean genetically
they are a different species.
And I really loved how Gabby highlighted
(44:34):
that aspect that we used to be species on
morphology, but we don't do that anymore
because we have the genetic material or
ability to read the genetic material.
Now we look at it, how
diverse they are from genetics.
And look, this happens every once in a
while where we see, you know, we see
species like say fish species that we
think are a large population.
And then we do the genetic, you know, we
(44:56):
do the genetic comparison of different
like subpopulations.
And we find out that one population is
genetically different from another
population that could be because they
were isolated a hundred years ago, two
thousand years ago, ten
thousand years ago geographically.
And so they came up with their own
genetic mutations and they started to
develop that way and evolve that way.
But morphologically, like
outside, they look the same.
(45:17):
So we just assume
that they were the same.
And when we categorize based on
morphology, we
categorize it the same way.
Now we're being able to look at the
genetic material and understanding that
when we compare them,
some of them are different.
We look at it.
Are they new species?
And is that new species species at risk
because they don't have the population
numbers to say, hey,
we're a healthy population.
We have to find out more about that.
(45:39):
And it incurs more research.
It inspires more research.
It demands more research to be able to
make sure that we protect that species.
So this gets into a whole other side of
biology, a whole other side of genetics
and conservation biology.
And I think it's extremely important to
talk about something that we don't talk
about on this podcast at all.
(46:00):
This is the first time
we've really talked about it.
And I'm really happy that
Gabby was able to join us.
And I hope you got what you came for.
I hope you got the information that you
needed to say, hey, when people talk to
you, it's like, hey, I was
listening to this podcast.
This is what they said
they're an expert on.
You know, it's a cool thing that they're
able to modify multiple genes at once and
express it into an animal.
(46:21):
And but there's also a lot of questions
that and implications from this and what
we're going to do in the future.
You know, I think that's something the
questions that become interesting and
what they're going to do with these
species and how much how often are they
going to be reproducing these species?
Is this just three dire wolves and that's
cool or are they going
to be producing more?
What are we going to do with those?
Where are they going to go?
All these questions need to
(46:41):
be answered in time, of course.
But I'd love to hear your
opinion on what's happening.
You know, like the story, the way they
came out, the story, the naming of the
dire wolf compared to a
genetically modified gray wolf.
Do you even care?
I would love to know your opinion.
Hit me up in the comments below if you're
watching this on YouTube.
Or of course, you can always contact me
on Instagram at How To Protect The Ocean.
(47:03):
That's at How To Protect The Ocean.
But thank you again for Gabby.
Thank you for listening to this episode
of the How To Protect The Ocean podcast.
I'm your host, Andrew Lorne from the True
North Strong and Free.
Have a great day.
We'll talk to you next
time and happy conservation.
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