How McKnsea Balances Her Marine Career and Content Creation to Inspire Ocean Advocacy

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(01:00:00):
A few episodes ago, I talked about ocean
conservation careers and how
important it was to understand
that there are certain decisions in your
life that will be
difficult at that time, but will
change the course of your career.
And I wanted to get a couple of people on
to show examples of that.
And I did that last time with Kenzie
Horton, who talked about
being a science communicator

(01:00:21):
and working in a job where she's a
fisheries biologist, and then
she ends up doing a master's
afterwards and making those decisions
that went into dedicating herself to
doing a full time job and a master's at
the same time on two different subjects.
But that makes her life more difficult.
It makes her life a lot busier, but she
does it because she loves it. And she
made that hard decision and it ends up

(01:00:41):
working out for her. Today on the
podcast, I have another guest who's very
similar in these types of decisions that
she made to be able to say, hey, what the
decision I made, I'm actually looking
forward to, because it's led me down this
really cool path. That is Mackenzie,
Margaret, she is on the podcast today. She is on the podcast today. She's a
she is on the podcast today. She is known
as Mackenzie on TikTok and on Instagram.
She's got a website out, all those links

(01:01:02):
in the show notes. But I want you to hear
this interview because it's a lot of fun
to be able to see someone who makes
decisions based on a lot of different
factors in their lives. And it's turning
out to look pretty good for them, no
matter which path they take. So it's
always great to hear from those. And I
know we're all going through the same
thing. So I want to talk about it on
today's episode of the How to Protect the
Ocean podcast. Let's start the show.

(01:01:25):
Hey, everybody, welcome back to another
exciting episode of the How to Protect
the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew
Lewin. This is the podcast where you find
out what's happening with the ocean, how
you could speak up for the ocean and what
you can do to live for a
better ocean by taking action.
And on today's episode, we have a great
one for you. We have Mackenzie Margaret,
who's on the podcast. He's been on my
bucket list for a while for having to be

(01:01:45):
a guest on the podcast. I have this list,
this ever surprising list. I come across
people, I follow them, I listen to them,
I become fans of them. I try and get them
on the podcast. And a lot of times
they're busy because they're doing so
much. The people that we all follow, the
people that we see on social media, the
people that we see writing a bunch of
papers or doing some really incredible
things on TV or even on the podcast, they're doing a lot of things.
And so they tend to be pretty busy and so

(01:02:14):
they tend not to have a ton of time
available. And so I was really, I'm
always so grateful when people like
Mackenzie and Kenzie last time were able
to make some time to come on the podcast
and introduce them to you, right?
And I'm able to tell themselves to you
and me as well. And I'm able to pull
their story out so that people can get
their story and then they can become

(01:02:34):
bigger fans of them when they follow them
on social media if they're not already
following Mackenzie is an amazing person.
She has been a huge advocate of science
communication, a huge advocate and
supporter of sustainable seafood. She's
been a huge advocate and supporter of
marine scientists that are within the
LGBTQ plus community.

(01:02:54):
She's been a huge advocate of sharing and
educating the masses on marine science in
general. She's a naturalist. She loves
science. She loves the ocean. She grew up
in Hawaii. But I don't want to give all
of a way right now. I want you to listen
to the interview because she's just a
wonderful person and she
just loves what she does.
And I think that's what oftentimes we

(01:03:17):
understand that marine scientists and
educators and science committees are
passionate, but you really get how
passionate there. But I really love the
decisions that she made over her career
and where it's led her currently and how
she's like, I don't regret any of it.
They were tough decisions at the time. I
don't regret any of it. I'm really happy
with the choices I've made. And I love
where my path is going now. She's a young

(01:03:37):
scientist. She's going to be, you know,
she's is and it's going to be an amazing
scientist. She's going to
be more people that follow.
She's got over 350,000 followers on
TikTok, almost 10,000 followers on
Instagram. And she just continues to
brighten my day every time I see a video
because she puts so much work into it.
And in this interview, she talks about
how much work she puts into those science

(01:03:58):
communication pieces, how much she puts
into like the decision making, what she
has a plan for the future. And I can't
wait for you to hear. So here's the
interview with Mackenzie Margaret. I
can't wait for you to listen. Enjoy and I
will talk to you after.
After Hey Mackenzie, welcome to the how
to protect the ocean podcast. Are you
ready to talk about all things ocean
science and science communication? Of

(01:04:18):
course, absolutely. Wonderful. I am so
excited for this episode. As I mentioned
to you before Mackenzie before we start
recording, you have been on my guest
bucket list for this podcast for quite
some time now. I've been watching you on
TikTok and watching on Instagram for
quite some time, loving your videos,
loving what you've been able to do and

(01:04:38):
the education that you
bring and kind of the
bringing to light some of the issues that
we talked about here on the podcast a
number of times and some of the stuff
that it's still surprising that we still
have to talk about it and we still have
to engage with it. But it's good to be
discussing and we'll discuss that on this
episode as well as your foray into

(01:04:59):
science communication and your success
into that and how that's changed your
perspective in terms of marine science
and education. So can't wait to get into
all that. But before we get started
Mackenzie, why don't
you just let the audience
know who you are and what you do. For
sure. I also very excited. That was very
sweet. Thank you. I'm Mackenzie
Margareth. I'm a marine scientist. I

(01:05:20):
mostly focus right now on sustainable
seafood. So fisheries and aquaculture as
well as like coastal ecology, how those
things impact our coastal ecosystems. I'm
a marine naturalist. I'm a science
communicator. So as you said, I create a
lot of videos on TikTok on Instagram in
order to bring in the general public on
to what we're doing in the science.

(01:05:40):
I feel like we don't do a very good job
of that a lot of the time. So I am trying
my best to bridge that gap as best as
possible. Yeah, I love it. And you're
doing a great job. Fantastic job. And I'm
not the only one who thinks that too. I
know there's a lot of people who think
that and all your followers who think

(01:06:00):
that as well, which you've amassed quite
a few, which is which is wonderful. How
did it all start? You know, like where
did this all this story
begin of you wanting to become
a marine scientist? Oh, I always loved
the ocean. I was always a water person.
My family called me little fish growing
up because I was just always a water
person. And so when I was in high school,

(01:06:22):
I went to high school in Hawaii. I went
on this like my high school is right on
the side of Diamond Head. We could see
the ocean all the time. And so I took a
class like a marine biology high school
class. Absolutely loved it. It was
spectacular. And then when I was going
into my undergrad, I like I didn't
grow up with a lot of financial security.

(01:06:42):
And of course, I went to I went to a
private high school, and I was a
scholarship student. So I was surrounded
by a lot of people who did have that
financial security. And I was like, I
want that that's something that I would
desire in my life. And so when I was
making the decision on what to do, that
was a huge factor for me. And so I
originally went into school for
forensics. So like my little degree here

(01:07:05):
is a degree in forensic science, you can
see that the bottom there says forensic
science is a huge factorfor me. And so I
went into forensics. I because I went
into forensics, because I was like, that
is the thing that will get me paid.
That's the thing that will be financially
secure for me. Yeah. And so I did about a
year. And one of my professors came up to
me and was like, Hey, you're a great

(01:07:25):
scientist. You you do really well. You
you're a good, good student. You're a
good scientist. You seem miserable. Like
you seem miserable and what you're doing.
This does not seem like you're happy.
Like you're just here and you're just
doing it. And she was like, is that
something that you're doing?
That you genuinely want? Like, is that
what you want? Like, you know, you're,
you you are picking a career that you're

(01:07:47):
going to do every single day for the rest
of your life. Like, yes, it'll bring you
financial security. But are you going to
be okay with being a bit miserable, a bit
not not having fun, not enjoying? And I
was like, I don't know, like, I would I
would like that financial security. I
don't know. That's that's a really tough
call. It's a really hard thing for like a

(01:08:07):
19 year old to decide.
Where you're deciding like the rest of
your life. Yeah, you and you've been
through, you know, some financial
difficulties in the past. And you're
like, Well, look, I just want to be able
to pay my bills and join my life. But you
know, good on this professor for kind of
calling it out, you're doing well, the
professor could have just said, Yeah, I'm
just gonna keep, keep going through and

(01:08:27):
let's see how how they do. And you're
like, okay, but then call you up. You're
like, hey, look, like,
you know, she was very sweet. And I think
about her all the time, because she also
made me her TA, like, she was an
incredible professor, shout out to you,
Dr. Cockbell. But she, yeah, she was just
kind of like, you know, I don't know,
like, because my plan was always to like
do forensics, and then like, have the

(01:08:48):
ocean be my life side thing, you know,
the thing that I like, volunteer on the
weekends. And that like, is like, because
there's always been that also advice that
people have given you that like, don't
make your passion, like your career, like
a lot of people that like love to cook,
like don't become a chef.
Because then it kind of ruins your your
love of cooking, because you're doing it
all the time. And so that was kind of my

(01:09:08):
mentality was like, I don't want to do
this all the time, because I don't want
to lose my love, my love will be on the
side, I'll make my money, I'll be able to
do the things that was kind of my plan.
And she was like, I understand all that.
And she was like, Well, how about for the
summer, we have, I went to a small
private university in Hawaii, it's called
Chaminade. And we, the Dean of my

(01:09:29):
department was really close friends with
this incredible woman named
Dr. Ruth Gates, Dr. Ruth Gates, very,
very big name in the coral industry. And
they were really close friends. And Dr.
Gates was out of UH, so out of the
University of Hawaii. And they had never
had somebody from my university go to her
lab, that had never happened, because she

(01:09:50):
only really accepted UH students. But
because her and my Dean were friends,
were really close friends, she was like,
I will give you one student to send to my
lab as a tester student. And if that goes
well, you can send more students to my lab.
No pressure. So no pressure. So I became
that student, right? I asked to be that
student was like, Hey, do you wanna, do

(01:10:11):
you want to go be that student be the you
know, be the example? And I was like,
sure, you know what, it was on coconut
island, which if anybody I'm sure this is
like way too dated of a reference for
some people, but Gilligan's island,
right? That was where that was filmed is
coconut island. Yeah. And that's where
the Institute is. That's where the Hawaii
Institute for Marine
Biology is. And so I was like,

(01:10:32):
well, why not? Like I can go out to HIV
and go sit on the aisle, you have to take
a little boat out there. I was like,
sure, I can go I can go send a son to
some role island. I guess. Yeah. So I
did. And I remember my first day there,
they were touring me around. The woman
who was in was Dr. Holly Putnam. She was
Ruth Gates, like, PI, like one of her

(01:10:54):
head invest or had researchers. And she
was touring me around. She was doing all
of this stuff. She was talking to me
about like ocean acidification and the
impacts on coral. And I was like,
whoa, I didn't know any of this. Like
I've been so focused on forensics that I
missed so much of what's going on. And
the very first day I was like, this is
what I'm doing. I'm not going back. This
is it. This is what I'm doing. And so I

(01:11:16):
didn't change my degree just because I
was paying for it for myself. And in
order to do that, we extend the time that
I was there. And I was like, I don't
think I'm going to be able to financially
pull that off. But I did turn all of my
research into marine research. I got a
minor in chemistry. And so I did a lot of
stuff within the field. And that allowed

(01:11:37):
me to continue on in from marine biology
afterwards. So what an opportunity. Think
about it like you're the first student
that was ever accepted from a different
university. And like you had the passion,
obviously. And you had, you know, you had
the ability to do it. That wasn't a
question. But like, what an opportunity

(01:11:58):
because it never happened before that
professor, you know, pulls you out and
just be like, hey, I
think you might be good
for this opportunity to do it. And then
all of a sudden, you're like, I'm never
going back. Yeah. How difficult was it to
infuse, like the marine science part into
your forensics, you know, type of work
like it with all your coursework and
projects and stuff like that? I can't

(01:12:19):
that couldn't have been easy.
Um, it wasn't as difficult as I think it
would seem. There's actually a lot more
crossover than you would imagine. So
like, learning genetics and learning all
of this stuff, it was very useful for
what I was doing, I ended up doing a lot
of genetic work on coral. And so I was
able to kind of kind of cross those
things over. Of course, there was things

(01:12:39):
like learning fingerprints, that was
like, I'm never gonna do.
But you know, it's also just like useful
to have. And then one of the things that
I always talk about that was really,
really interesting that really crossed
over for me was I learned a lot about
law, like a good portion of learning
forensics was learning law. And so
learning law, learning policies, learning
how all this comes into place, helped me

(01:13:00):
understand how environmental stuff comes
into place, how environmental policies
are utilized. You know, what we do as far
as environment when people are breaking environmental laws, and then they're like, oh, I'm going to do this.
Are breaking environmental laws or how
those things go about was actually quite
useful. And it's something that I still
use to this day of being like, I actually
know how this process works. Yeah, it was

(01:13:23):
a lot. There was a lot more crossover
than I think a lot of people would
realize that they seem very, very
opposite. But at the same time, science
has a lot. And it was also, it's an
undergraduate degree, right? So there is
just kind of, it's a basis of
science. So that kind of helps.
But when I think a lot of people think
that you have to go and do your undergrad

(01:13:43):
in marine biology. And I think that's a
huge myth within within the industry,
like, sure, biology helps a science
degree helps, whether it's chemistry,
whether it's physics, whether it's
biology, could be really anything, you
could technically go to arts, maybe have
to do a couple courses if you
want to go into graduate work.
But you really just need the basics at

(01:14:05):
that point. And you can if you decide to
go to grad school, if you decide to go
and do a job, you have the science
degree. It makes it really it doesn't
make it too difficult to transfer that
knowledge over, especially if you've done
most of your projects on on marine stuff.
And I'd like the idea of trying to be
creative, really, you know, biting into
the genetics aspect of course, because

(01:14:26):
you're learning something that needs to
be learned anyway, it's not as if it's
information that doesn't need to be
learned or researched.
And so you're able to do that. And then
you're you almost become creative, you
can use that as a bit of a, you know,
their resume is, look, I went into a
forensics degree and I use marine science
to do it. Like, don't tell me I'm not
creative when I when I'm able to do that.

(01:14:46):
I love that, that aspect. So when you
graduated there, what was your next step?
You have all this marine science, you're
now infused with it, you're inspired by
it. You've had the opportunities, you're
living in like paradise, like in Hawaii.
You know, I say this from someone who
just visited there, but I say this as
someone who always loved Hawaii. What was

(01:15:07):
the next step? Like, what were you what
was your thought
process when you graduated?
First, I want to give like a little piece
of advice. Yeah, looking into it. When I
something that I was somebody had told me
is that if you are interested in science
at all, like go into your undergrad with
a general science degree, go for like
biology or bio chem or something along
those lines, and then do internships and

(01:15:29):
do research in the different fields that
you're interested in, because you never
know what you're going to like until
you're actually doing it.
I thought I was going to love forensics.
I thought that was going to be such a
cool investigative, very creative. And
then I kind of discovered that's not what
it was that my idea of what forensic was
was not real. And so, you know, I didn't
know that until I was actively in it. So

(01:15:49):
my little piece of advice I always try
and give is that just just do something
general and do and practice and go for as
many internships and see what you really
like, because then you can
specialize in graduate school.
And you can do on from there. Yeah. And
you can even major in things in you in
undergrad to if you decide to do it
later. I went in with an agricultural
science program, and I ended up switching

(01:16:10):
over to like a marine biology degree
afterwards. So like you can always go in
different places, just know what kind of
courses you're interested in, or what
interests you at the time, and it might
change. I think that's a
great, great piece of advice.
Yeah, but what I did afterwards, so I
actually graduated in 2015 with my
undergrad. So if you can remember the

(01:16:32):
timeline, that was the year of our first
Trump presidency was 2016. Yeah, yeah. I
was starting a graduate program at UH
actually with Dr. Ruth Ruth Gates lab. So
I was doing something with her lab, I
started a graduate program at UH.
And then Trump presidency came into play

(01:16:55):
and funding got really, really finicky. A
lot, a lot of funding was lost to the
university. And I bought this letter one
day that was like, Hey, we've reevaluated
your portfolio, and we are now basically
tripling your tuition. And my stipend
through my university wouldn't have
covered it covered it.
Oh, yeah, it was, it was nearly tripled.

(01:17:19):
It was when it went. It was it was it was
a crazy letter to receive. And so I had
this like, wow, okay, that's insane. And
I remember I went to this protest, like
maybe two months after that, and I had
this sign that said girls just want to

(01:17:39):
have funding for the research.
And I was like, I was like, I, this is
crazy how quickly I lost funding and how
quickly it all happened. And so I tried
originally to do all of it to do the
research and then to also get a job. And
the job that I got was
being a marine naturalist.
So I, that's how I'm in the boats. Yeah,

(01:18:02):
yeah. Okay. I'm like touring boats with
the tourists. And I really loved it. And
unfortunately, it was too much. And I did
end up having to drop out of my program,
which still makes me sad to this day. But
that's how life goes. You never know what
life's going to throw at you. And there's
always something that's around the corner
that you don't know about. And I think
that for me, that was being a marine
naturalist. I started being a marine

(01:18:23):
naturalist. I became a humpback
naturalist. I worked for this company
that allowed me to transfer to a
another island. So I grew up on Oahu. And
then my partner and I got an opportunity
to move to the Big Island. So we moved to
the Big Island for a year and a half. And
I was working on a submarine, which was a
very popular thing that I've talked about
on Instagram, or on TikTok. So that's

(01:18:46):
where I worked on the submarine as a
naturalist and as a co pilot. And then we
ended up, you know, leaving Hawaii
altogether because my goal was always to
go back to school, I always wanted to
return. And it was kind of those one of
those things that I partnered with. And I
remember, I remember like, if we want to
do this, we're gonna have to leave the
most expensive state in the United
States. It is a very expensive place. You

(01:19:09):
know, we're both working full time job.
She even had a second job, just to afford
to live, right? You don't really get to
see each other. There's not, you know,
yeah, that's a lot. So it was kind of one
of these things that was like, if this is
really your goal, this is really what you
want, then you're gonna have to give up
being home. And it was kind of this
conversation that I was like, you're
right. And so we did, we left.

(01:19:29):
And then unfortunately, there was a
pandemic. So that also was, no, that
didn't help. But I got to like, spend
time with my grandma, we were we took
care of my grandma for two years. And so
I always really value that time as well.
There's, there's times for you to be an
active scientist, and there's times for
you to be an active community member and
an active member of like your family and

(01:19:50):
those sorts of things. And that was my
time was to be an active member of my
family and to give my grandma her last
two years at the home that she wanted to
be in. So that's what I did. I,
I was in the pandemic, and I had already
started to talk, but I really had started
to talk because people had told me that
that was like where the lesbians were
there were like, that's where the
lesbians are going. And I was like, if

(01:20:12):
you tell me the lesbians are there, I'm
going. So yeah, you're telling me that my
people are there, I'm going. So that's
kind of what I started as was just like,
lesbian thirst traps and like trying to
make community with my people. And it was
during the pandemic.
And I remember this very
specific video that I was like, well,

(01:20:32):
since we're all stuck inside, let me
teach you something, let me teach you
about some coral. And I made this little
video about coral and what coral
bleaching is and what white coral could
be that it's not necessarily dead. It was
like, and people were so interested in
it. They were like, I didn't know I need
this information. And I was like, Oh,
wait a second. All that work that I have
done in person as a naturalist, which,

(01:20:53):
you know, was very interesting because I
grew up with the ocean. I grew up waking
up and seeing the ocean. And you know,
you don't understand that when you're
younger, you don't understand how special
that is. You just think that's not
somebody's at the door. I think so. Love
dogs in this podcast. Delivery probably.

(01:21:17):
But yeah, you know, I didn't understand
how special that was. And then working as
a naturalist kind of showed me that it
showed me how people don't grow up with
you. Sometimes people were coming on that
boat, having seen the
ocean. This was their first
time on the ocean, seeing things,
learning about fish, learning about
whales. And it was those moments that I
was like, Oh, I can connect people with
the ocean. I can help people develop this

(01:21:39):
relationship that will then foster into
them caring, which will then foster them
into them making taking actions. And it
was that video where I where I made,
talked about coral. People were so
interested that I was like, Oh, wait a
second. I can do this online. I can take
all those things that I was doing in
person and bring that online. So I just
started creating these videos about the
knowledge that I had and about

(01:21:59):
marine science and about being in marine
science. And it just became this really
wonderful career in marine science
communication. Well, it's just amazing.
There's a few things that you said there,
like, we'll get into the science
communication set, because this is where
I really want to I want to I'll live with
you on this because it's so important.
You made that you made some pretty big

(01:22:20):
decisions, like after you graduated.
Yeah. And it's insane to think about how
many scientists, marine scientists, when
we come marine scientists,
we dream of like either working in
Australia or working in a place like
Hawaii. Right. And then here it is. It's
too expensive for marine biologists, like
homegrown marine biologists to live there

(01:22:40):
to do the work that they would love in an
island that they know. And then they have
to go somewhere else to do it. I just
feel like that's very weird. It should
not happen in a way. You know what I
mean? Like, it should be a place where
you can go and enjoy, especially because
and I know just from you, like,
especially from your videos, like, you
know, the culture, you know, like, you
know, the significance of everything.
And I think that's important for

(01:23:01):
scientists to be able to do that. So I'm
sorry you had to make that decision to go
to do that. But even moving to the like,
like, even the decision to move, like, as
like the other thing, actually, is to be
a naturalist on a boat and like to dive
into that. Do you regret the decision of
of getting that job
and working in that job?
Because it seems like it's really paying

(01:23:22):
off right now in terms of just being able
to do what you want to do, you know, on
on on TikTok and on Instagram and on
science communication.
Like, do you regret that?
No, I think there's like, I've always
learned and like the lessons I've learned
is that there's always something that you
don't know about. Like, right now, I'm
waiting to hear about a graduate program,
right? And you're kind of like, you're on

(01:23:43):
the edge of your seat, constantly
checking your email, like, oh, am I going
to have the email
today? Is it coming in today?
And I know it's coming in any day now.
Right? It's happening soon. And, you
know, I try and remind myself that no
matter what happens with it, that door
doesn't open. There's another door that
I'm not that I don't see right now.
There's a window, there's a door, there's
something else that I am not noticing.

(01:24:04):
And that's kind of how I feel about the
marine naturalist thing is that I took it
as originally like this is, I know enough
that I can teach people and it's
something that will
give me some money. Cool.
Yeah. And I didn't realize where it would
take me. And so at the time, yeah, for
sure. At the time, I was like, I am Yeah,
it was a hard decision. I was so tired. I
was so overworked. And so of course, at

(01:24:25):
the time, it was like, man, was this the
right choice? I feel a little bit
overwhelmed and overworked. But now, in
retrospect, of course, I'm like, wow,
that gave me so many tools that I didn't
realize I needed for a career that I
really loved. I had always wanted to do
science communication. I didn't even know
what that really was, though, right?
Like, I always just wanted to do science communication.
I always just wanted to teach, I always

(01:24:45):
just wanted to help people connect to the
ocean, I'd always wanted to be a part of
that. But I didn't know it was called
science communication. I didn't know that
there was an actual career or job in it.
Like there was, like, none of that was
information that I understood until it
was kind of happening. And I was like,
Oh, okay, this is this is all the blocks
are coming, they're building something. I

(01:25:07):
just wasn't able to see what the
structure was until I took a step back.
So no, you know, yes, it was a hard
decision. And, you know, there's always a
part of you that's one that likes to if
and but about things, right? What what
could have been what could have been what
would have been. But now I
think I, I'm very thankful.

(01:25:27):
You know, I actually was just talking to
quite a few other science friends about
this, particularly women in science, we
kind of, you know, it's hard to be on in
science. I think everybody can see that,
you know, we're, we're, we're tend to be
overlooked quite a bit. And one of the
things that I was talking to quite a few
of my like friends about is that, you

(01:25:48):
know, we get these opportunities for
research. And sometimes you just want to
take them because you're like, well, I
got an opportunity, I want
to take it like, that's cool.
I'm a woman in science that got an
opportunity given to you, I want to take
it. But then you have to think about is
this actually research that I want to be
doing? Is this actually what I want to be
specialized? Is this going to help me in
the long run? And so those things are

(01:26:09):
kind of what I, you know, try and reflect
on. And the research that I was involved
in was really interesting and really
cool. But it's not, I don't think what I
would have wanted to be doing in the long
term. So would that have benefited me in
the long term is kind of one of those
things that I try and remind myself. And, you know, I think that's a really cool thing.
And, you know, I think a lot of times we
kind of like pigeonhole ourselves into
like, you know, this is the opportunity

(01:26:31):
that I got. And so now I'm just doing
exactly this. But now I, you know, have
had such a passion now for sustainable
seafood and for fisheries and aquaculture
and all of these things that I wouldn't
have been able to be involved in it had I
gone down that path, or it would have
been a hard pivot from that path.
So I think that gets that I think there's
always something on the horizon that you

(01:26:52):
just can't see and that you got it, you
got to trust in the universe a little bit
sometimes, which doesn't feel good, but
you got to try and do it.
For sure. I just recently did an episode
on conservation careers. And I mentioned
that like, sometimes those decisions are
really hard at the time, because you have
no idea where it's going to take you. But
then there's no really
right or wrong decision.
You know, as long as you're not hurting
anybody, there's no real right or wrong

(01:27:13):
decision, whatever the decision is,
that's your path. It was meant to be and
then you just go ahead and do it and you
make the best of it.
Sometimes, oftentimes, it ended up any
benefiting you in the end, you know, you
do science communication, I assume we'll
talk about in a second. You've got some
opportunities, you know, available to you
that you probably wouldn't have had if
you didn't start the science
communication, right.

(01:27:33):
And I've had the same opportunity, like
I've had similar opportunities or
similar, you know, different
opportunities with with podcasting that
have come to me where like, I would never
would have predicted
this if it hadn't happened.
And I think it kind of opens up our mind
a little bit forces us a little bit to do
it, but opens up our mind. So I really
like that. The other thing that you
mentioned earlier, which I think is
really important to is obviously your

(01:27:54):
partner plays a big role in your life,
you know, life partner.
She's there to do, you know, you guys are
living it together, you know, there's
compromise to happen. She moved with you
to the Big Island. And she
moved with you again, after that.
Obviously, that's amazing thing to do,
right? You know, to go, Hey, if you want
to do this, we got to move away, let's

(01:28:16):
let's go ahead and do this.
Like, how is it like, how important is
that to you to have that support there to
do that? And wasn't it difficult decision
for her to say, Yeah, let's go to these
places. It can't be an easy thing, right?
Um, I will say first off, it was not a
difficult decision for her. She is so
much of the let's explore the world. I

(01:28:38):
want to get out there. I want to do
things. So I don't feel bad about that
whatsoever. Because I think I'm the one
who struggled with it more. I'm like, I
want to be home. And she's like, she's
like, those don't know the things that
you want. And the goals that you have in
mind are not aligning right now. Like,
you need to figure it out. And I'm like,
Oh, yeah, you're right. You

(01:28:58):
might have a good point there.
So yeah, she's the one that likes to
explore and to get out there and be big.
So no, that that wasn't necessarily the
issue. But I do think having a strong
support system is so essential.
Particularly if you're doing like digital
science communication, I think we touched
on this before we started recording of
people can be the online community can be

(01:29:20):
a lot, it can be really tough.
You know, it's your the words that you
say can get misconstrued so so easily
people can take things out of context,
take a single singular sentence from a
whole video out of context, and it can
snowball into something else. And so
having a really strong support system is
necessary. This is one of the things that
I get asked all the time at conferences,

(01:29:41):
people are like, how do you do
everything? How do you go to school and
do research and do science communication
and like keep your head up of water? And
I'm like, I have a really, really strong support system.
Not just my partner, but also like, I
have some really incredible best friends
that are always there. And you know who I
can call for pretty much anything. I am
very, very lucky in that way to have such
an incredible, strong support system. And

(01:30:04):
I think that is an essential part of
being in like conservation or being in
advocacy, particularly if you're doing it
digitally, because like my partner is not
an online person, she doesn't have social
media. She doesn't do any of that. No,
she's that's not her thing whatsoever.
She is very, very, very good.
She's very private, keeps to herself. And
that is so, so lovely for me, because

(01:30:26):
there's times where I'm like, God, I hate
this. I hate everybody. Like, I'm just so
miserable. I'm so mad. And she's like,
put your phone down.
We need to be called out that way.
Yeah.
Put your phone down. Let's go for a walk.
Like, let's go. Yeah, let's go. Let's go
feel some sunshine on your
skin. I'm like, oh, yeah.
Right.

(01:30:46):
A little reminder. I check. Yeah.
And so I think that's very important.
Like, it's not necessarily that you have
to have something that's offline as much
as I do. But I think it's important to
have somebody that reminds you of these
things that reminds you to be like, hey,
you you are going into a place of like
letting the internet rot your brain a
little bit like the internet is getting
inside you, you need to go outside, you

(01:31:07):
need to go look at the ocean.
Yeah.
Remind yourself why you're doing what
you're doing. And you're like, Oh, yeah,
you're 100% correct. And so I feel very
lucky to have that even the other day, I
was on FaceTime with one of my best
friends. And I somebody on threads, made
one of those comments that just drives me
absolutely bonkers where they were like,
if you're not vegan, you're not an

(01:31:28):
environmentalist. And I was like, I'm
coming for you. And so I like, you know,
we need to have a discussion.
Yeah. So you know, me and my, my little
contacts and everyone's commenting. And,
you know, we were watching our favorite
show together. That's what we were doing
on FaceTime. I brought up threads, and
she could see it on my face that I was
reading. And I was getting granary. And
she was like, put the keyboard warriors

(01:31:48):
away, like put them away, stop. And I was
like, Oh, yeah, you're
right. You're right. Right. Okay.
It's difficult sometimes. And I get I'm
right there with you. Sometimes I read
comments, even if it's on other people's
posts. And I'm just like, I need I have
the need to say something. I have, but it
gets me charged up. Yeah. And it's, I
coach, I coach my girls hockey team. We

(01:32:10):
have a rule in his words, like the 24
hour rule, whereas like after a game, no
parent can come up and like, yell at you
or anything like that, they have to give
24 hours to like calm themselves down and
they can talk to you after that. Great
rule should be in all sports. And usually it is.
I feel like it almost should be for for
for social media to like, if I see a
comment, I'm just like, Oh, this is gonna

(01:32:31):
get me angry. I'm gonna get emotional
about this. Then I was like, just leave
it, put it down. Like, wait, wait 24
hours. And then that comment is still
going to be there. And then you can get
after it that way. Yeah, like it's
difficult, though, sometimes. Oh, it's so
hard not react. Right. Yeah. But when you
do like, you've had some some posts of
your own where, you know, I'm sure you
get comments on it, especially when you're talking about the

(01:32:52):
LGBTQ plus and it's, you know, it's a
hard thing to like you want it, you want
to talk about it because you want to get
your opinions out and then people are
commenting some pretty hateful comments
or, you know, some pretty just not nice
comments and you respond to it. But you

(01:33:12):
always respond to it in such a way you
look like you know, you're calm, you
almost like it feels and maybe you're
not. It's it's what the what it seems to
me when I watch it. But you're like, I'm not going to be able to
almost approaching it like a scientist.
You're like, let's let's just look at the
like, let's be reasonable here. Here's
the situation. Here's what people are
going through. And this is why you're
talking about it. Can you just kind of

(01:33:33):
talk us through when you do a post like
that and respond? Is it one of those
things where you wait 24 hours and then
you kind of respond or like, how do you
look so calm? I don't know if you are
enough. But how do you look so calm and
respond that way? I would say I'm calm
like 80% of the time. If you actually
look at some of the videos,
there's some of them that I get.
I get a little heated, I get a little

(01:33:53):
frustrated. Okay. Understandably so.
Yeah, there's there's a few and and funny
enough, it's the ones that I get
frustrated that people like don't listen.
I'm like, Oh, yeah, maybe maybe I should
be a little bit more calm. Because I like
you said, I do get caught up with it
sometimes where I'm just like, I can't I
can't deal with you right now. And then I
go I lose my cool a little bit. But that

(01:34:13):
is the ones where I have resources and I
have, you know, I am a bit more calm. I
do come at it from a very scientific
perspective that people
understand a little bit better. So I try
and remember that. It doesn't always
work. Yeah, I'm not I'm not perfect. I
have my moments. But you know, I really
tried to remind myself that like, when

(01:34:35):
you come at things with data points, and
with, you know, genuine perspectives, and
with, you know, the actual experiences
that queer people have experienced,
people who are better at time of
listening, but also, there's people that
don't want to listen. There's people that
don't care, no matter how much data you
have, no matter how much you articulate
your point, they don't want to listen.
And I've definitely experienced that. And

(01:34:56):
I think it was last month or the month
before that, I was talking about a couple
of girls who are in Hawaii who are very
anti LGBTQ, but are also a marine
conservationist. And I'm like, this is a
genuine problem that we experience in the
marine conservation field is we have a
lot of anti LGBTQ people,
which their sentiments, their
mentalities can leak into policies and

(01:35:17):
legislations. And that's a huge issue.
And I've seen it within, you know, when
we're at conservation conferences, I've
seen those things, we've kind of brought
up those prejudice, the kind of
infiltrate into actual policy building.
And so it's a problem that we need to be
addressing. And of course, those two, the
two that I was mainly talking to didn't

(01:35:38):
didn't want to hear it didn't want to
care didn't have any opinion. But it was
the other people, right?
All all all the others,
all the others that were listening were
like, Oh, I didn't realize how big of an
issue this was. I didn't realize that so
many of the people that I support, and
that I like find, you know, my
information from have a negative
perspective of like my community, the

(01:36:00):
people that that's who I am. So I think
it is, I understand how important of a
topic it is to be discussing. So I try
and remind myself of that. So I'm like,
remain calm. Yeah, articulate your point.
It was a really important conversation.
And again, I think that's
what I'm trying to do. And again, I'm not
perfect. It doesn't always go doesn't
always work. Like, if you really look at
those times, there is one video where I

(01:36:21):
have lost it. I lost Michael. But you
know what, where it happens. And I,
that's, that's just what I do, you have
to do. And necessarily, like, that's not
necessarily that's something that
everyone has to do. But I think with the
platform that I have, and with developing

(01:36:41):
that platform, like I said, I developed
that platform, that platform got better.
They built off the lesbians. It was on
the back. That's how I got there. That's
how the first 100 K came about. Was the,
my backbone of my community of my marine
conservation area, our lesbians, I so
therefore, my, I need to stand up for my
community, like the the queer community

(01:37:03):
are the people that are there.
lifting me up, therefore I have to turn
around and do the same.
And I feel the responsibility
to do that. So that's why it's very
important to me. Like I
said, I can't always come at
it with a calm
demeanor, but I try not to.
Understandably, understandably, too. I
mean, it's very
frustrating to watch, you know,
sometimes even like cis male, you know,

(01:37:25):
white guy, middle age, I
try to do my best to keep
my mind open and make sure that, you
know, I do my best to keep
everybody like keep everybody
around me inclusive and that it provides
approach like I could be
approachable, right? And
but like, it's true. Like when you watch
some of those things, you're it's
amazing. But like, I
learned from these videos as well. Right?
I learned about some of the
policies where he's like, I
never thought I never would have thought

(01:37:46):
about that. And it's just out of
ignorance. It's not out
of malicious, you know, behaviors, just
like, Oh, never thought that
well, that makes sense. And
then you, you know, you start putting it
together. If I'm ever in
a position where I have
influence on that and same with other
people. I mean, but you have
over 350,000 followers on on
TikTok, which is absolutely phenomenal.
But not everybody is anti
LGBTQ, as you mentioned,
a lot of them, you know, a lot of your

(01:38:07):
followers are from the
lesbian community. So it's like,
hey, like, they got my back and they
understand. But I think it's also
important to realize,
and I do this sometimes too, with in
different aspects, when
people talk about climate change
conservation, they, they say some things
that aren't true. It's
like, I'm not there to refute
just what you're saying. I'm there to
educate the other people who
look at the comments or who
look at my posts or whatever that might

(01:38:28):
be. That's important for science
communication. I don't think
we realize that and that could cause
conflict for us in the future
by the very people that you're
responding to, but you're really not
responding to them. And you're really
responding more to like,
Hey, by the way, for those of you who
really want to know, this is what climate
change in or is this is what
some of the policies that are put in
place that we need to change. And I think

(01:38:49):
that's the important part
from a scientific point of view that I
get out of it. And I hope I assume, you
know, you do as well. I think
that's an important part, right? Yeah,
absolutely. It's always, it's always
about the people that
you don't realize are
watching. Right. Now, you know, when you
do your videos, you have you talk a lot

(01:39:09):
about a lot of different things,
right? We talked about the LGBTQ
community, especially within marine
science, you, you talk
about your naturalist
stuff. I'm looking at a video right now.
I see starfish. I see like I'm just
watching the clips right now. But it like
that's your naturalist coming out that
experience coming out. And you do
education on like

(01:39:30):
looking at dive tips and like
when you went back home and like, you
know, there's a lot of been a lot of
submarine reports come
out over the last few
years, you have that experience with some
reason. Do you like when you wake up
every day, do you have an idea of what
you're going to post or like, do you do
you plan that out ahead of time to just

(01:39:51):
being like, yeah, like, this is what I'm
going to talk about today. And how is
that influenced by, you
know, what you see around you?
I think I always have a plan and the plan
tends to always go awry. So I've really
learned over the past
four years that like,
yet, like I have a whole list of things
that I'm like, here are content pieces
that I would love to talk
about. Like I have lists

(01:40:12):
of my phone, I have lists of my planner,
I have lists everywhere of like, here's a
content idea, which I think is really
useful on those days that you're like, I
don't know what to talk about. Like,
there's nothing that's
come about. I don't have
anything. Wait, let me go reference this
whole list of things of ideas that I have
that I can make something based off of.
But a lot of the times, it'll be like, I
want to record this
today. And then I'll open

(01:40:32):
Instagram or open TikTok. And I have 40
tags. And I'm like, what is going on? And
it's something that people are like, can
you talk about this? Can you reference
this? What is this person referring to?
And I'm like, oh, okay, I got to put that
what I was going to talk about in the
back burner for a second, put it back on
my list, address this. So I tend to see
that like, sometimes I have plans.
Sometimes I'm like, this will be this

(01:40:53):
day, this will be this day. And sometimes
that works out. But oftentimes, I find
that it's what the take what what my
audience wants to hear what they're
asking for. Okay, let me address that
first. So it really depends. And I've
learned that plan to make content don't
necessarily always be planning on what
that content is going to be. I have scripts for things that are going to be

(01:41:13):
a lot of things that I haven't recorded
yet, because I will make the script, I'll
get on TikTok. And there's something else
that needs to be addressed, okay? We're
going to focus on that instead. So you
know, there's always have those as a
backup, if you want to, that's always
nice. Yeah, there's always days that you
that there's nothing going on in the in
the ocean world. Like, I mean, that's not
true. There's always something going on
in the ocean world, but nothing on
TikTok, right? Yeah, nothing that the

(01:41:34):
TikTok audience have grabbed on to quite
yet. So those days, oh, I have I have
things I have lots of stuff that I could
talk about. I have lots of things that I
can bring up. I have lots of content that
I can produce. And I think that's a really cool thing. I think that's a really cool thing. I think that's a really cool thing. I think that's a really cool thing. I think that's a really cool thing
but there's also days that you just got
to listen to what people
want to hear and listen to the
questions that people are asking. And
that's an important aspect,
especially to social media,
it is supposed to be social, right? It's
supposed to be engaging.
And if you engage with some of

(01:41:54):
your followers, or even if they haven't
followed you, but they've
watched your videos before,
because that can happen on TikTok, you
know, they're tagging you
in this like, hey, you know,
because I'd love to hear about this, you
know, I want to hear about
this, like, what are your
thoughts? And I think that's really
important to address, like almost right
off the bat, as soon as
you see it's just like, Oh, yeah, like,
this is something that I want to, I want
to be able to talk about to
answer it and clear things up. Obviously,

(01:42:16):
people want some clarification or a
response or something
like that. I, yeah, I think that's a,
that's a great idea. Now, when you, when
you're looking at these
videos, they, how long does it take you
to make a video? I'm just curious,
because they're short form,
but they're really not short form in the
making. It depends on what the topic is.
Like, if it's a little bit more fun,

(01:42:37):
like the teaching people how to like, a
couple of dive tips I have for people,
right? I think took me like 45 minutes,
because I was also getting like footage,
right? I was like, Okay, I got a couple
videos of me, so I can show
exactly what I'm talking about.
So I got to grab. So like, thank you both
those things, right? Like, got to dig
through my videos, find the video that
I'm referring to, pull that out, get on,

(01:42:57):
you know, do all of that.
Of course, you I like I watch back as I'm
making my TikTok, because
for me, like I I've I've cried and using
my phones until they absolutely die. So I
still have, I think this is like an
iPhone 11, which means that sometimes
there's glitches, right? Sometimes it
doesn't always grab the audio or
whatever. So I, I try and watch as I go,

(01:43:19):
not every single clip, but a couple
clips, okay, watch did did did all the
audio work, did it was there any
glitches? And sometimes that happens,
right? Sometimes there's a glitch, okay,
got to record that, re record that piece,
okay, try. And so I try and give myself
time. So I think that one
took me a littlebit longer.
I mean, about 45 minutes. But then it
depends, like, if it's a topic about
something that's like a research piece or

(01:43:40):
a question that people are asking, I try
and put a lot of effort into researching
the question and making sure that like
what I'm talking about is the most recent
and updated version.
And sometimes it's not sometimes, you
know, that's the thing about science that
that I'm trying to break with being a
science communicator is how difficult it

(01:44:01):
can be and how exclusionary exclusion,
exclusionary, exclusionary. Is that the
right word? You don't have to say. Yeah,
I can be very, you know, hard to find
like that. It's behind a paywall. It's,
you know, here in Canada, we have
different regulations on on what news you
can access because they
were trying to, you know,
they were trying to mitigate the spread

(01:44:24):
of misinformation. But that in order to
do so, they just got to put a blanket
over everything, over everything makes it
a little difficult. So, you know, it's
sometimes it's even difficult for
scientists to find the most updated
information, right? There's something
there's always something coming out,
there's new public, there's new people
every single day. So I try and do my best
to find the most recent information to

(01:44:46):
look and see what I'm looking at. So that
can take time that
alone can take a few hours.
To make sure that I am reading the most,
you know, updated things and and combing
through papers. That is so difficult
sometimes. The way that oh, yeah, the way
scientists write is so convoluted. I like
I just want to I'm like, we need to make
abstracts something that like a regular

(01:45:08):
person could read. And that would be
beneficial. Like, I get, like, I get
that, like, you know, there's two or
three sentences about the actual what you
did. That's not gonna make sense to
people that like don't actually know what
you're involved with. Sure.
I'll give you that. Yeah, but like, for
the most part, your abstract should be
able to be digestible for a general
audience. You almost need a blog for

(01:45:28):
abstracts. Really? Like a blog for
abstracts. Yeah, truly. And I think,
yeah, some some grace for your actual
methods and methodologies, because that's
that's just how things are. But man,
sometimes I'm like, do we have to use the
thesaurus for every single word? Is that
necessary? And it's just sometimes it

(01:45:50):
drives me absolutely
botherous. Because I'm like, if I'm
struggling with this, yeah, like, nearly
10 years of science experience experience
experience of I'm struggling. Yeah,
imagine a regular person trying to
research this and trying to figure out
the answer. They're not going to get
there. They're also going to have to pay
like $7000 because it's every every paper
is behind a paywall. Like, let me know if

(01:46:11):
I work for a university right now. So I
get access to a certain amount of papers,
even then there's still someone that are
behind paywalls from
and let's just be honest, like these
these yeah, these subscriptions for the
universe at the universities pay are
like, in the tens of thousands of dollars
per per, you know, publisher, it's
ridiculous. It's ridiculous. It's it's
it's insane. And I think that's what

(01:46:31):
takes me the most time is really combing
through all of that science. So, and then
obviously, like writing my script, kind
of going over it, because that that's the
one of the hardest parts about science
communication is trying to
double check your own biases of
what words and what things make like I
know that like my general audience is not

(01:46:52):
going to know because sometimes I'll use
terminologies that I am just so used to.
Yeah, I'm like, Oh, everyone's gonna know
that. And then I then all of a sudden
people are like, Oh, are you saying
you're like, Oh, yeah, sorry. I realized
now that like, like, that's not a that's
not a common term. That's not a vocab
word that everyone got to have in high
school. That is something that I've just

(01:47:13):
like been ingrained with so hard that I
think everybody knows now,
but that's not. Oh, yeah.
I always get caught up in the acronyms.
There are times I've used the acronym so
much. I don't know what it stands for
anymore. It's just the app. Sure. I know
what the acronym is.
For sure. Every time I say Noah and I
leave like, what does Noah stand for? I'm
like, Oh, the well, it's the place with

(01:47:34):
the ocean. I know
they're in there somewhere.
Yeah, they're somewhere there. Yeah,
yeah, like I definitely understand. And
like, for me, Noah is like that acronym
is so you know what I'm talking about. I
was saying, yeah, you say that to a
regular person. They're like, talking
about like, you'll see

(01:47:55):
the face go. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, that's one of those words that we
have because of the experience that we
have. We know it so well. We don't even
think about it anymore. But most people
really don't know what that is and don't
know what they do. So yeah, that's,
that's probably one of the hardest parts
is like, yes, coming through the science
and then I got to build the script a
little bit and then I got to relook at

(01:48:15):
the script and be like, okay, what in
here? Am I missing? What in here? What in
here is not going to make sense to
somebody? And what should I elaborate on
a little bit? And it can
even just be one little
sentence, right? Noah, the American
Oceans and Atmosphere organization. Boom.
Yeah, that covers it. But sometimes you
forget to do those things. So I try and I

(01:48:37):
try and comb through it all and then
record. Then of course, you got to you
got to edit it, you got to do all of
that. And I like try and use green
screens and that stuff because I try and
make it visually appealing to my audience
as well, which is, you know, where people
are losing their attention spans. So you
got to keep the attention.
Even with short videos, you got to switch
it up. And so like, you know, getting the
pictures, editing the pictures to be the

(01:48:58):
right size for TikTok, all that takes
quite a bit of time. It takes a lot more
time than people realize, I think.
Yeah, 100%. And I think also with the
evolution of TikTok in terms of the time
limits that they offer, you know, first
used to be what, 30 seconds? Yeah, then
it became 60 seconds, then three minutes
now 10 minutes. How hard was it for you

(01:49:19):
to get all the information into one
minute? Did you do a lot of like part
one, part two, part three,
like that type of content?
Absolutely. The minute limit was was
tough. Like I, I really love the three
minutes because I think I
can get a good piece. Yes.
Even like two minutes with three minutes
gives me the leisure of okay, I can edit

(01:49:41):
down a little bit. I can kind of scramble
around. But when it was a minute strict,
you could hear me like the last two coats
being like, and this is trying to like,
shout for sentences
into the last 10 seconds.
Because you're out of time and there's
no, and there's no leeway. There's no,
you know, there's no, there's nothing
you're, you're cut off at 60 seconds. But

(01:50:02):
now I appreciate that those are a little
bit more like I usually just go straight
to the 10 minute feature.
And I rarely, rarely go over three
minutes. I write, you know, but having
that 10 minutes of time lets me play
around a little bit, right? Let's me.
Okay, what can I edit down? What can I
take out? What can
what can you move around?
And it also gives you the ability to kind
of like stop to right like because you

(01:50:24):
can clip off those little pieces you can,
yes, take a breath, take your sentence.
Okay, click. Whereas before you were
like, click, click, click.
Yeah, all the time.
Go. I appreciate that we've kind of moved
a little bit as far as editing on tick
tock to have a little bit more space and
time. So yeah, I and I try and not go
over because I tend I noticed now like,

(01:50:46):
no, a lot of my content
is very educational, very
science-based that like if it's too long
I'm gonna lose people. They can only, you
know, they're on TikTok because they want
to have fun. They want to scroll a
little bit. Sure they want to, you know,
they're like, "Oh yeah, I'll sit for a
minute and learn." That's nice. I'll
learn from you today.
Yeah, but like a quick piece of

(01:51:07):
learning something new is kind of, you
know, what people are going for. So I try
and find that sweet spot of like how do I
make sure I'm getting you the right
information, the correct information,
information that you can understand and
utilize, but also in an entertaining way
that's not going to go over your time
limit of your brain. So it's a real
tricky balance that we're constantly
trying to kind of figure out and work

(01:51:28):
with. Yeah,
absolutely. It is. It's kind of
funny. You know, like, you know, you're
not only trying to do that, but you're
trying to learn the software. Are you
trying to, do you edit
all on your phone? Is
that what you're saying? Like you do it
all? I edit mostly on
my phone. I have, I do
have CapCut and stuff on my computer, but
I just, I find it like I take most of my
footage on my phone. So I do have like,
yeah, loading up. You just upload from my

(01:51:51):
phone and edit from there. So yeah,
that's kind of what I
mostly do it from. I have
played around with it on my laptop, but
also like I'm a scientist on my laptop.
I have like our running. There's like, I
think I have like 10 fucking research
papers open right now. The second I open
my laptop, all of a sudden I'm like, oh
yeah, I got to write that paper. Oh yeah.

(01:52:12):
Yeah. So I'm like, what about my phone?
Like I, this is, this is my science
communication world. This is
my research world, you know, so
that's hilarious. That's so, so true too.
I have like so many tabs open a lot of
times when I record all of a sudden,
like, like computers, like we're just
chugging here. You need to like close a

(01:52:32):
lot of these tabs. I'm like, I only have
like 400 open. I don't understand why
it's, you know, why it's taking so long,
but yeah, no, I completely get, I learned
editing on my laptop. So like going
to the phone, I'm just like, this is not
easy, like doing text and everything like
that. I'm like, I have to scroll. And of
course, every font that I like is the
lowest on the screen. Oh, for sure. And

(01:52:53):
you're just like, come on, like, and
they have to find all the time. Anyway,
but I appreciate, I respect the, the
editing on the phone because I have such
a hard time doing it. It's not easy.
It's, it's not takes a while to get used
to, I imagine, but, but you do such a
great job because you do like, it's not
just like you're just talking into the,
into the camera all the time. Like there
are some words like day in the life of,

(01:53:14):
and, you know, all those types of, of
like vloggy type of content that take a
while to go through because then you have
to do the voiceover as you're putting
them all through and that. So yeah, the
editing is, is a, is a vibe for sure,
because it's not as if it's easy to do or
it takes, it always takes time because
you have to pay attention to every single
detail. Absolutely. That's great.

(01:53:36):
But this is just, sorry, go ahead. Go
ahead. No, no, I was
just saying, I like those
pieces because I like to remind people
that I'm a human. I think that a lot of
the times people get on, uh, see
scientists online and they're like,
that's what they are. They're a scientist
and they just know all they are
omnipotent scientists. And I'm like, I am
a human. I am just, I

(01:53:58):
am just a human. I'm,
I'm just a girl that likes the ocean and
studies the ocean. Like I'm going to
make mistakes. I'm going to say things
that are incorrect. Sometimes science is
constantly changing. I am just a human
that is trying my best. And so I, I like
making those pieces, even though they can
be kind of tedious because like you
said, you got to go through that
voiceover gradual of those things. But I

(01:54:18):
think it reminds you that there's a human
aspect to it. And that was one of
the biggest things when I got a
management team for my science
communication, I was like, like, I am not
becoming like the commercial person.
I am not becoming this like one entity.
Like that's never who I'm going to be.
I need the internet to remember that I am
just a human that like, that like likes

(01:54:40):
to create content and likes to share
about science communication and wants to
connect people to the ocean and wants to
help people get involved in marine
conservation. But I am just
a person. Give me some grace.
I agree with you there. You know, that's
one thing that somebody told me when I
first started, I was asking, you know, I
was changing up my intro one of the times

(01:55:01):
I was doing a podcast and I was asking
for feedback and I had a good friend of
mine. She always helps me out in terms of
like what I should go with and like
kind of just confirms some of the things
that I want to do. And she was always
like, give us a little bit of tidbit of
like your personality. Like what's going
on in your life? Like, what do you like?
Which is it's so funny because I
interview people to get that personality
out. Like what they're like, I want

(01:55:22):
people to know how cool our scientists
are. And like they're
like everybody else,
they're human beings, you know, and they
love certain things. They don't like
certain things. And this is who they are.
And that's that's the fun part of it.
But I never really thought of it for
myself until I get
reminded like, hey, you
know, it's through a little bit like
what's going on in
your life, how the kids
you know, all that kind of stuff. And so

(01:55:42):
every once in a while, I'll throw
something down because it just it's
humanized you. Yeah, people are listening
to you, whether they're watching you on
TikTok or listening through the podcast.
It gets you're in your ears, right?
You're in their eyes on a regular basis.
And so they tend to have
that like, almost like a loyalty to you.
But like, you're
like, in there, they're an
influence, you're an influence. I guess
that's where the influence came from. But

(01:56:02):
you're an influence and how they think
about marine science and, and having that
personality I really like I loved your
the videos of you going back to Hawaii.
Thank you.
That was really I felt that was really
special. And just
because you're like, you
love you can tell you love it just from
the podcast. But before I knew you loved
just from that video,
because you're like, it was wild
since you had been back and you want to

(01:56:24):
do you know, spend time with your friends
and you're like,
there's you're talking about,
couldn't see everybody was a little
chaotic, but it's a lot. It's always fun.
I like that part,
because it does show that
personality. Yes, you know a ton about
marine science, and you're willing to
share everything. But
yeah, you got to get to
know you got to get to know the
Mackenzie, right? That's the best part of
it all. And I think
that's important, because

(01:56:44):
then it allows people to be like, Oh,
well, yeah, don't go attacking her. She's
just doing what she's doing. You know,
she's just doing what she loves.
So let her let her do that. And I think
that's, that's, that's really important.
I got to ask just as we kind of wrapping
up here, and you and I could
probably talk for like three hours just
on on science communication alone. You
know, coming up, you've had, you know,

(01:57:06):
there's been probably
opportunities presented, you talked about
like a management team now that you have.
Where do you want to take your science
communication? Like, how do you want to
like, I know, like I've been on your
website talks a lot about science
communication. Where do you want to go
with with all of this?
Um, well, right now, I am like waiting to
hear about a graduate program that I've

(01:57:26):
applied for. And so thank you. I'm very
nervous. It would be a
very big, a big transition in my life.
And so that is something that I kind of,
I would like to take my audience along
with me and what that looks
like. Yeah, so that's just, yeah, that's
that's kind of what I you know, I did a

(01:57:46):
graduate diploma. So just
a one year in fisheries and
agriculture. And it's allowing me to
apply for this program. And it's, it's a
bit it would be a big, big move, big, big
transition. And so I
am, you know, kind of just kind of
waiting and I like to share about that. I
think that's kind of where I see myself

(01:58:08):
going is sharing more of my research and
what I'm doing actively in the field. I
still like you know, I enjoy, I've made,
you know, the pandemic when I was a
little bit like I was, you know, taking
care of my grandma, I wasn't as active in
actual research. I, you know, got to make
really fun videos like, you know, like
what octopus you are based on your zodiac sign and all that. And I think that's kind of where I'm going.

(01:58:41):
And that's kind of where I want to start
leaning into. So yes, I still want to make fun science communication videos, but I also want to bring people in to the research a little bit more. And I last year I was doing research at a lab that wasn't as successful as I was doing before.
And so I didn't get to share as much as
what I was doing. And like now the paper
is kind of in production and it will be
published this year. That's kind of what I've been working on lately is is getting that paper ready. And so once it's published, I'll be able to kind of talk about a little bit more.
But just because of the like the nature
of, of, you know, of the lab and what
they kind of do. Sometimes you can't

(01:59:03):
sometimes you can't. Yeah, sometimes it's
awesome. It's going to be discussed.
There's, you know, there's that's that's
the nature of things. That's
just kind of the honest thing.

(01:59:29):
So, you know, I'm, but the lab that I
applied for the graduate program that I
applied for, they're very open. Their
whole basis is, you know, it is climate change and fisheries and all of these sorts of things that's their main focus,but also they have a real emphasis on science communication and the advisor has, you know, talked to me about it.
And it's very open to me sharing my
experiences, which was really important

(01:59:51):
to me when I was applying for this
graduate program. So that's kind of where
I want to go is yes, still have those
kind of fun pieces still be educating, but also be showing what what life is really like that, you know, yes, marine science can be really fun. And yes, it is an incredible career.
I love it with all my heart, but it is
not just like playing with dolphins and
going for swimming. It is also a lot of

(02:00:14):
times. Yeah, that'd be great. That'd be
great. There's also like a lot of science
involved. There's a lot of sitting behind my computer. You know, there's a lot of sitting right here at this spot on this laptop, looking out this window of how beautiful of a day it is. It'd be amazing.
I don't get to go outside because I have
to write this frickin grant. I have to
sit here and yeah, code some are always

(02:00:37):
that that's always fun. People love our
yeah, for sure. No, we would never we would never speak down about our ever. So you know, like that. I think that reality is so important.
I, I, when I first got involved in
science communication, I found people
like always talked about like the
benefits of of marine science and there

(02:00:58):
was always these videos that were like
marine science and it's like there's
dolphins and there's ocean and there's all these things and they're going for Diaries and they're all this stuff. I'm like, I'm like, okay, that yes, but also I think that we should like tell people that like that's not all of us.
Yeah, a lot of it is analyzing all your
data is office time is sitting in a lab.
It is waiting for your PCR to run. It is waiting for your you know, your experiment to be to be conducted. It's all of these things that are not as glamorous. And so that's one of the things I started talking about that I think people really connected to because I was like, I'm going to do a lot of things because I think that's really cool.

(02:01:21):
It is waiting for your, you know, your
experiment to be to be conducted. It's
all of these things that are not as
glamorous. And so that's one of the
things I started talking about that I
think people really connected to because
I was like, it's underfunded. It can be
really tough. There we still deal
competitive. Oh, it's competitive. It's
so competitive. It's very much who you
know, it's, you know, and a lot of times

(02:01:42):
you're up against your friends, which
does not feel good. You're going up
against people that you're working, you
know, that you've worked
with that you've studied with.
It is it is not all fishies and dolphins.
It is is is hard. And so that's kind of
one of the things that I've I talked
about previously that people really
connected to people really thankful for
that. And I've gotten a lot of messages
of people being like, thank you for that.

(02:02:03):
Like, I really want to get into marine
science, but I didn't realize that there
was all of these other aspects. And I'm
like, no, I'm glad that you were able to
understand that. And so that's kind of
where I want to keep going. I want to
keep educating, keep talking, keep
bringing people, connect people to the
ocean, giving them that like sense of
care, giving them that.
Ability to want to be involved in marine
conservation. You know, I always think
that's the most important part. If I can

(02:02:24):
teach you about a new animal that oh my
God, you're obsessed with that animal.
Okay, cool. In order to protect that
animal, we have to do all of these things
as well. There's there's pieces that are
important. Yeah, exactly. So I, you know,
I always will do that. I will always keep
doing that. But also, I'm really excited
to share a little bit more about what the
world really looks like and and what all
those things are aspects. So we'll, we'll

(02:02:46):
know in a few weeks, hopefully.
And and I know it's gonna turn out well.
I have the feeling you deserve it. You
definitely deserve it. You know, all the
decisions you made to get to where you're
at. They've been for a reason. You are an
amazing scientist. The way you speak
about science is amazing. And you can
tell there's a lot of passion in there.
So, you know, fingers crossed. But I'm

(02:03:07):
very confident that you'll get this. And
we can't wait to see. I speak on behalf
of the audience here. We can't wait to
see what you what you're gonna come up
with. Thank you. And the science is amazing.
And the content you're gonna make after
you get this. So I can't wait to see. So
it's gonna be a lot of fun to it to be
able to see that. And I know what's gonna
happen. I know it. It's it has to be in
the cards. You deserve it. So anyway, you

(02:03:29):
look, this has been fantastic. I'd love
to invite you back on another time to be
able to talk more. And then maybe we'll
talk more about about what's gonna happen
with you with your graduate work. That'll
be fun. But it's also, you know, if you
want to check out Mackenzie, it's let me
just make sure I have it right.
It's Mackenzie S E A at the end. So M C K

(02:03:52):
E N C E S C S E A. I can't spell. I'll
put in the link so everybody can see it.
But check out the TikTok and the same
handle for Instagram. Correct? There's an
underscore because somebody stole my
username. I've tried to argue with
Instagram about it for years now to let
me have it because it's a it's a count
that nobody uses. It's a private account
that's never had anything on it. And I'm

(02:04:13):
like, please just give it to me. Just give it to me.
Yeah, that's the worst justice. I think
this is great. I want people to check it
out and let us know how you feel about
it. You know, reach out to you if they if
they want to get more, they want to have
a question about an animal. I'm sure
you'll be able to answer it. I'll go on
the list of things to be able to answer.

(02:04:34):
But absolutely, Kenzie, Mackenzie, this
has been amazing. I really appreciate you
coming. Like I said, it's been on my
bucket list for a while. And I'm just
really happy to have you on it. I would
love to have you back on anytime.
Of course, I would love to love to be
back on this was very fun. Thank you,
Mackenzie, for joining us on today's
episode of the How to Protect the Ocean
podcast was great to be able to get to
know you to get to know how you got to

(02:04:55):
where you are, how you got so many
followers and just the amount of effort
you put in to each of those pieces of
science communication on every platform.
I just think it's fantastic. I don't
think we realize how much work goes into
creating content these days and to be
able to create good content, whether it's
a video that you put up for
five minutes and it goes viral.
Or it's a video you spend, you know, 45

(02:05:16):
minutes to two hours on editing and
making sure there's enough B roll to keep
people engaged and to inform people of
what there's do. It is harder than you
think. Trust me as a content creator. It
is not easy to put everything you need to
put to make it not only to balance the
entertainment value, the education value
and the conservation
value. It's a lot of work.
And I just love how Mackenzie will sort

(02:05:37):
of stand up for herself online when you
put yourself out as a content creator,
you put yourself out to criticism and
some criticism for me, especially like
when I get Christmas is valid. Sometimes
like the like, oh, yeah, I missed a
little piece or I could have added to
that piece and it's valid to acknowledge,
you know, either in
another video or in the comments.
But then there are sometimes when they
just come for your throat for no reason

(02:05:58):
and you have to stand up for yourself.
There's sometimes you have to wait and
there's sometimes you have to stand up
for yourself. And sometimes you have to
get emotional. Sometimes you don't.
And it's just really hard to balance that
and making sure that you have people in
your life to kind of spitball certain
ideas of how to respond, making sure that
you're calm and collective and making
sure you take that 24 hour rule in my
case anyway, or take a couple of hours
just to wait and be able to respond

(02:06:20):
because you don't want to get too
emotional around it in terms of.
Not making your case because you're not
thinking the way you want to think,
right? That's really what it goes down
to. But the way Mackenzie is able to
balance that is phenomenal. The way she
sometimes will, as she mentioned, be a
little more emotional or sometimes not
emotional and just respond in a

(02:06:40):
scientific way and in a conservation way
or an educational way.
I just think it's phenomenal. And, you
know, some of the topics, especially when
it comes to the LGBTQ plus community and
some of the things that she's probably
heard in the response that she's had in a
negative way that will get you there. And
it's very difficult to watch people have
to listen to that and have to go through
that. But the way she responds, I have
utmost respect for it. So I really love

(02:07:01):
the way she does her content. So follow
her. I'll put the
links in the show notes.
I want you guys to get to know Mackenzie
like I get to know Mackenzie is a real
pleasure to have her on the podcast. I
can't wait to have her back again. They
listen to some more educational content
as well as find out more about her and

(02:07:22):
what she's up to. So thank you again,
Mackenzie. And I want to thank you for
listening. I would love to know what you
think of the type of topics that
Mackenzie covers, how she covers them. If
you know her, you've been a follower for her for a while. Love to know what made you follower. I want to know what you think of Mackenzie.
And if you have any comments on the way
we do content, love to hear those
thoughts as well. So just make a comment

(02:07:44):
on YouTube if you're watching this on
YouTube or you can hit me up on Instagram
at how to protect the ocean. That's how
to protect the ocean or go to speak up
for blue.com. We have everything in
contact with us. We have a contact page
or you can just put the comment just
right on the episode page. I want to thank you again for joining me on today's episode of the how to protect the ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from the channel.
I'm Andrew Norsch, strong and free. Have
a great day. We'll talk to

(02:08:05):
you soon and happy conservation.

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