March 26, 2025 • 74 mins
Plastic pollution is one of the most pressing threats to our oceans today. In this episode, we explore how microplastics—tiny fragments of plastic waste—make their way into tropical marine ecosystems and cause lasting damage. Whether it’s through broken-down consumer products or fishing gear, plastic pollution infiltrates ocean habitats and harms marine life in ways we’re just beginning to understand.
Coral reefs, often called the rainforests of the sea, are especially vulnerable to plastic pollution. These vital ecosystems support biodiversity, protect coastlines, and sustain livelihoods. Dr. Lisa Rodrigues, a professor at Villanova University, shares her research on how microplastics impact coral health, disrupt growth, and even contribute to disease in reef systems. Plastics can also alter water quality and affect the delicate balance that coral reefs depend on to thrive.
Marine debris isn’t just unsightly—it’s a serious ecological problem. From lionfish to tiny plankton, organisms across the food chain are ingesting plastics or suffering from habitat degradation. Dr. Rodrigues explains how even pristine-looking beaches can hide layers of microplastics beneath the surface. We also discuss how citizen science, beach cleanups, and community involvement play key roles in fighting plastic waste in coastal areas.
Ocean conservation efforts must include tackling plastic pollution at its source. In this episode, we talk about the role of environmental policy, education, and innovation in reducing marine plastic waste. Whether you’re an activist, student, diver, or beach lover, there are actionable ways you can help protect coral reefs and reduce the plastic footprint in our oceans.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(01:00:00):
How do microplastics affect tropical
marine systems like coral reefs,
lionfish, or even just the shoreline?
Sometimes you're walking along a beach
and you look down and you see these blue
and white and maybe green little pieces
that are kind of laid out under the sand
or maybe they're just exposed from the
sand along this beach.
(01:00:21):
You're on a beautiful beach, you've got a
beautiful sunset going, the waves are
crashing in and you see these little
pieces. Those are microplastics. Those
are not part of the ocean.
They came in from the ocean at some point
and they're just laid out on the beach
and that can affect different types of
animals within marine systems.
So today we're going to actually discuss
how it affects marine ecosystems and what
(01:00:43):
we need to do about them and if policies
and beach cleanups actually help.
We are going to talk to Dr. Lisa
Rodriguez, who is an associate professor
of geography and the environment at
Villanova University.
She is here to talk about her research
and her lab's research on microplastics
in marine tropical environments,
including coral reefs, including
(01:01:03):
lionfish, including the beaches along
every shoreline that she works at in
Puerto Rico, in Hawaii, and so forth.
We're going to talk all about
microplastics and the marine environment
on this episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean podcast.
Let's start the show.
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another
exciting episode of the How to Protect
(01:01:23):
the Ocean podcast. I'm
your host, Andrew Lewin.
And this is the podcast where you find
out what's happening with the ocean, how
you can speak up with the ocean, what you
can do to live for a better ocean by
taking action on today's episode.
We are going to be talking about
microplastics in the marine environment.
We've heard about microplastics being in
the air, in the water, in
our bodies. It's everywhere.
It is something that is a huge concern
(01:01:45):
from a health perspective of humans and
from an environmental health perspective.
When we talk about the planet, we use
microplastics and single plastics more
and more every day beyond plastic straws.
Okay, we'll go beyond, although we
discussed it in this interview, we go
beyond plastic straws. We go and just
what connects and what traps coral reefs
(01:02:06):
and how it's affecting coral reefs, how
it affects fish like
lionfish, which is invasive.
So we're going to study those. And we
also look at sediment cores. We talk a
little bit at the end about studies to
come and when microplastics actually
started in the marine environment.
This is a great episode. Dr. Lisa
Rodriguez, a professor of geography and
(01:02:26):
the environment at Villanova University,
is here today to discuss her research on
microplastics in the marine environment,
not just on coral reefs, which is, I
thought, first, what we were going to be
talking about focusing most of the show
on, even though we
talked a lot about that.
But there's other parts of the marine
environment that are affected by
microplastics and something that we need
to be concerned with. And we need to make
sure that the efforts that are done with
(01:02:48):
beach and coastal cleanups, as well as
policies in place to ban specific single
use plastics, do they actually work?
And sometimes they may work, but we don't
actually see it for ourselves anecdotally
when we're out in the marine environment.
It's a little bit misleading, but the
data shows that it actually works.
So we're going to find out all about that
and why that is in this interview with
(01:03:10):
Dr. Lisa Rodriguez. So here is the
interview enjoy and I
will talk to you after.
Hey Lisa, welcome to the How to Protect
the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk
about microplastics and
their effects on coral reefs?
Hey Andrew, thanks for having me. I'm
excited to be here and
to chat more about that.
All right, I'm looking forward to this is
gonna be a lot of fun. I say a lot of fun
because we're gonna be talking about
(01:03:30):
studies and research that are that's
going on. Obviously the topic doesn't
sound like a lot of fun in terms of the
effects on coral reefs, but we're going
to get into all of that. Before we do,
though, Lisa, why don't you just let us
know who you are and what you do?
Sure. My name is Lisa Rodriguez. I'm a
professor at Villanova University, which
is just outside of Philadelphia.
(01:03:51):
Awesome. Now, studying in Philadelphia
coral reefs, not something that you find
every day. I live in Burlington, Ontario,
just outside of Toronto, surrounded by
the Great Lakes. I say I'm a marine
biologist. Everybody's like, what are you
doing in Ontario? So I want to know how
did you end up in in in Philadelphia?
(01:04:11):
Obviously a fantastic university. How did
you end up in Philadelphia?
Yeah, so I first moved to Philadelphia to
do my PhD here at the University of
Pennsylvania where I did study coral
reefs. Most of that field work though was
done in Hawaii. So
that's not a bad deal, right?
Not a bad deal at all.
(01:04:32):
Part of your time in Philadelphia, part
of your time in Hawaii. Yeah. Before
that, I actually was in your neck of the
woods. I did a master's at
the University of Toronto.
Awesome.
Yeah. I lived in Toronto for a few years.
I got my undergrad from Dalhousie
University in Halifax, Nova Scotia. But I
actually grew up and I think where a lot
(01:04:53):
of my interest came from is I grew up in
Bermuda. And so on a tiny island in the
Atlantic surrounded by corals and coral
reefs. And I think, you know, that was
just is what sort of generated my
interest in marine biology and corals.
And I think that's sort of what led me
(01:05:14):
down this path to where I am today.
That's quite an adventurous childhood to
grow up in somewhere like, you know, very
small island of Bermuda. That's a huge
destination from for people here in
Canada because it's so close. And it's
such a lovely island.
I had a friend who lived out there. She
was an accountant over there, which a lot
of accountants start their careers over
(01:05:34):
there. And she would scuba dive on on her
as a hobby. And she learned to scuba dive
there. And then she
would got into the internet.
(01:06:05):
And then she just comes in a bit of retaliate. Andthen led her to a group group part of TagOUT G
showing out, a supervisor who wrote this
book of ten textiles on an Indian site, he thought he let her do a subpartite. But she was like, Well, like, I can't stop. And then she didn't express her ability to work specifically up to find a Pra Fantasy that that she had just published. If not, I'm talking aboutNo one practice.
or seeing the degradation
of reefs and other animals
and environments as you grew up.
Did you notice as a child
or was it just like so young
that you didn't have a
chance to notice that?
I think some aspects I noticed.
(01:06:25):
So certainly there were
things that would wash up
on the shore when you
would go to the beach
that clearly didn't
come from local areas,
but I definitely more when I go back now,
my family still lives there.
And when I travel back over the years
that I've lived away
(01:06:45):
that I feel like those are the times
where I've really noticed it much more
is just sort of seeing
that increase over time.
It was actually a few years ago,
I was visiting over the winter holidays
and we had all gone out, my
family and other families,
we'd gone out to a
(01:07:06):
restaurant that is right on the beach.
And after we had lunch, we
were walking along the beach.
And I was so surprised by
basically every step that I took,
there were pieces of
microplastic that I could see
as we were just walking.
And that was actually, I
mean, I'd studied corals
for many years prior to
(01:07:27):
that, but that was probably
the first time where I
realized, oh, this is something else
that I think we really
need to learn more about.
It's so interesting you
mentioned that because I was just,
I just got back from a trip
in Hawaii, beautiful place.
Obviously, you just talked about it, you
know, a lot of corals,
a lot of studies that
are being done there.
(01:07:48):
And the one thing I noticed, we went to
this wonderful beach,
Lanakai Beach, gorgeous area on a wall.
Oh, I know that. Yeah,
that is a great place.
It's beautiful. The sand is
like fine, fine, fine sand.
It feels so great on your feet.
We that's the beach where we notice the
microplastics the most.
And the funny thing is I overheard some
people saying like the people
that were besides they thought it was
something from the ocean.
(01:08:09):
Like they thought it was, you know,
sometimes you have these little pieces
of what looks like
glass, but it's not glass.
It's actually from the ocean.
And they thought that's what it was.
They thought it was from the ocean.
They didn't like the fact that I told
them, actually, it's not marine
biologist here.
That's not from the ocean.
I mean, it's from the
ocean, but it shouldn't be.
It's a microplastic.
But they had no idea.
Do you think there is a like from I mean,
(01:08:30):
obviously you and I know,
especially doing a lot of work on
microplastics and so forth.
Do you find that there's a lot of people
that may not know how to identify
those microplastics if they just see it
on a beach because sometimes it's kind
of hidden. Sometimes it's white and
sometimes it's blue.
So sometimes it could look like a shelf.
You don't touch it.
Do you find that there's a little bit of
that naivete around that?
(01:08:52):
Absolutely. Yeah.
And I think I think that goes for all
kinds of litter and debris.
Right. We don't.
So, you know, if you think about just
driving your car around the road or
something, unless you what what I've
learned in the last couple of years,
working with people doing cleanups is
that when you start looking for it,
(01:09:15):
realize that it's so
pervasive and is everywhere.
But that until you reach that point where
your eye is kind of trained for it
and doesn't take long to become sort of
trained with this is then you see it
everywhere and it's actually really
difficult not to see it.
Like we actually apologize to people when
they join us in cleanups for the first
(01:09:37):
time because because we
say, you know, this is great.
And we're happy that you're here.
But just so you know, you're never going
to look and you're going
to see this everywhere.
No matter where you look, you'll see.
Yeah. And so that applies to what we
would call macro debris, like the larger
pieces, as well as the microplastics is
once you start to see it,
you realize just how
(01:09:58):
pervasive it really is.
And it's like you want
more people to know that.
But you also don't want to ruin people's
sort of idea of what the ocean is and
what it should be and what a beach should
be our shoreline should be.
But once you learn it's like, ah, these
scientists, they're always bringing us
down, making us more
aware of stuff, you know.
But it's it's it's interesting, you know,
(01:10:19):
as as you grow up, you know, in a place
like Bermuda and the idea of just Bermuda
just sounds wonderful.
Right. It must have been a fun childhood.
And you you again, you don't, as you
mentioned, you probably didn't really
notice a lot of the things
that that happened there.
And maybe, you know, when you're a child,
like when I was a child, it maybe wasn't
as persistent as it was today.
(01:10:40):
And as we use more and more plastics,
when I when I grew up, Coke
was still out of a glass bottle.
You know, that's the
generation that I've from.
So may not have been
persistent as it is today.
What type of sort of like games did you
get up to or what kind of like life did
you have as a child
growing up in an island?
(01:11:00):
Were you in the water a lot or, you know,
some island communities don't
like to be in the water a lot.
There's a definite fear.
Were you always, always wanting to be in
the water growing up, you
know, being a marine biologist?
I definitely was.
I mean, I don't I had I know what you
mean about sometimes people
prefer not to be in the water.
And I definitely know people
who fit into that category.
(01:11:21):
But for for me, I was
always I was always in the ocean.
So, you know, that's where I learned how
to swim, was being sort of thrown out of
a boat and sort of to
see what's going to happen.
And and, you know, a
lot of my summer jobs
(01:11:42):
through the time that I was in school,
but also when I would go
home from university were
were related to to the
marine environment in some way.
It's just some
aspects of science locally.
I like my favorite place there still, I
feel like I could give them a plug is if
you if you're visiting
from you to go check out the
(01:12:03):
Bermuda Aquarium Museum and Zoo.
It's like a wonderful place.
You can't get into the water.
That's like a really great place to see
the fish and of the other
animals that we have there.
And really just that I spent a lot of my
time there and then also involved in
research as I got older as well.
(01:12:25):
And so, yeah, I really did.
We really did spend our time like I
remember playing with sea cucumbers on
the beach in my summer holidays because
we would collect them and then play with
them on the on the beach afterwards
before putting them back.
Right.
Yeah, so it's just to me, it was just
like the normal thing that you did.
And those were the kinds of
things that I learned about
(01:12:46):
and really grew to appreciate and love.
And it was really, I think, getting my
interest in science and and having, you
know, sort of a more science background
as I went into college and
university was really about
wanting to understand how those different
things worked, what was
going on in the ecosystem.
(01:13:09):
And I was just always really interested
in just learning more about them.
Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, it's it's it's
for me as someone who has the same likes.
I mean, that is the dream, right, is to
grow up and to be around the ocean.
Can you pinpoint a time in your life
where you're just like, I want to learn
more about these and this is what I want
to do as a career, like as a because
(01:13:29):
growing up, you know,
you're near the Bermuda
Institute of Oceanography,
you are around the water.
Was there any time in that childhood or
did that come later as
you went to university?
And I so I think it was
really early on, actually.
Yeah.
Like I said, for me, it was there.
(01:13:49):
I was sort of spent more time at the
aquarium and they have a research
component there as well.
And so I think, you know, probably from
the time that I was in middle school,
maybe even earlier than that, I I knew
that I like my dream job probably still
would be to work there.
(01:14:11):
But yeah, like I knew that I didn't I
didn't know like what it meant to be a
scientist really or to be a professor.
So that wasn't on my radar.
Right. But I knew that
I wanted to do science.
They knew that I wanted to do science, be
involved in science in some way related
to to the marine environment.
(01:14:31):
And so and so that's actually why I ended
up going to Dalhousie was that they have
a really good marine
program there on the East Coast.
Yeah. Yeah. And they've they've
diversified quite a bit now.
Their marine affairs program and their
their science and research
is just top notch in Canada.
It's it's it's quite lovely.
That's awesome. So you have like, you
(01:14:52):
know, growing up from, you know,
obviously Canada is really close.
So you learn about Canada
and then you end up in the U.S.
Right. Afterwards.
And when you come out of of Dalhousie,
was it still coral reefs on your mind?
Was that still what you wanted to study
or was there is was is that when the
microplastics started to come into play?
(01:15:12):
No. So, yeah, my sort of research sort of
trajectory was after I finished, I had a
degree in biology from Dalhousie.
I knew that I wanted to do a master's.
I really enjoyed I had some experience
doing research at Dalhousie and I knew
that I wanted to kind of keep doing that.
(01:15:32):
So I looked around.
I ended up doing a project actually
partially based in Bermuda and partially
based in Toronto on.
I worked in a lab that focused on
crustacean behavior and I studied an
organism that's on reefs.
It's a hermit crab that's
actually endemic to Bermuda.
(01:15:53):
OK, that's actually really cool.
It's a really cool hermit crabs.
Hermit crabs are awesome.
That one of the things that I found out
about it is that the the males are
primarily mobile in the way that we would
imagine hermit crabs to be.
They walk around in shells, but it's
unique in that the majority of females of
(01:16:14):
the species actually live in tubes that
are fixed to the reef.
And so they cannot move around.
And I did not know that.
Yeah. And so it's a really interesting.
Again, I would. This is one.
I haven't studied
this in years and years.
Yeah. Look at it again.
But there's there's a lot of kind of just
interesting behavior that we studied
related related to that, like whether
(01:16:36):
there was some choice in
what the females were doing.
Turns out that there's not.
They're kind of relegated to live in
things like suboptimal little tubes.
Yeah.
That's so I studied that at the
University of Toronto.
I actually took a year off after that and
worked in Bermuda at at the aquarium
(01:16:57):
doing research more on
terrestrial work there.
And then I ended up finding an
opportunity at the University of
Pennsylvania to do a PhD.
And that's really where I got into like
corals, coral ecosystems.
Right.
And it wasn't until in the last sort of
like five or six years that I've been at
Villanova as a faculty member that it
(01:17:22):
just sort of became clear that studying
plastics, marine debris in general, as
well as micro plastics was something that
I would like to do to more of.
I've been working with a colleague of
mine in my department who focuses on
river ecosystems and we were studying in
(01:17:43):
Puerto Rico, the impacts of pollutants
coming down the river, mostly focused on
sort of dissolved pollutants like
sediments and things like that.
And so we were able to get
(01:18:05):
funding to continue that work.
And that's kind of how I sort of
transitioned into that area.
Okay.
And now, you know, we've seen, you know,
micro plastics really come to the
forefront of sort of one of the major
issues, I would say in in the ocean in
general, even in our world.
I think it's really exploded over the
last, I'd say five or six years,
(01:18:27):
especially the last two years where we're
starting to see studies come out and
being published of, you know, micro
plastics being in our body, being in the
air, being in the water.
And as as marine biologists growing up in
the last two decades, you
know, we've seen microplastic.
We knew that was a microplastic problem
before there was a microplastic, even
(01:18:47):
just a plastic debris problem.
We knew that was a problem.
We could see it, you know, continuing.
Not much had been done with
it over the last two decades.
Now we're really starting to see more
policies put in place, studies being
done, really starting to see some of the
major consequences of these actions and
the non-actions of
what hasn't taken place.
(01:19:08):
Seeing, you know, studying
coral reefs and marine debris.
Why coral reefs at this point?
You know, like it's such a broad subject
and obviously you want to
niche into a certain place.
Totally understandable.
Why coral reefs?
So there's there are so many other
stressors that are on coral reefs, some
(01:19:28):
of which I've studied.
And so this, you know, we all there are
many studies that have shown when you
have these sort of multiple stressors,
just like with humans, you know,
you're sick, you're more likely to have
something else happen to you or you, you
know, it's harder to do things.
And that's the same thing with corals is
(01:19:48):
while they're much simpler organisms,
they're, they're definitely this sort of
compounding aspect of multiple stressors
is something that is really important
because we're sort of
throwing many, many things at them.
And so this sort of felt like kind of a
natural next step for the research that I
was doing was previously mostly focused
(01:20:11):
on some of the physiological impacts,
like sort of what's happening in the
corals body when
different stress stressors happen.
And so to sort of now tie in this other
aspect, I know we haven't directly there.
There are other studies out there. We
haven't directly in my lab looked at what
(01:20:32):
the direct impacts are of microplastics
on corals in part because it's very
difficult to study in the field, which I
think is where the
important questions are.
And so instead what we've been doing is
looking at some of the more broader
ecosystem impacts of beaches, mangroves
and tropical river systems that are sort
(01:20:54):
of all adjacent to coral reef ecosystems.
And so we're looking at where it lands.
So like, where does it sit for a little
for a while, because then that can kind
of tell us where we're more likely to
(01:21:16):
find microplastics and maybe also give us
some clues as to where, where we can kind
of do some prevention and
more management activities.
And so I just got into a lot there and I
want to kind of break it down a little
bit. Sure. There's there was so much
there that was kind of juicy from a
scientific point of view that I wanted to
break down. We talked about cumulative
(01:21:36):
effects in in coral reefs. Now,
obviously, you know, we have bleaching
because of major heat, sun, like even
even more sunlight exposure. We have
ocean acidification are some of the three
major things that have caused, you know,
mass coral bleaching in the past and even
just the development of
with ocean acidification.
The problem in developing stony corals or
(01:21:59):
any kind of coral that uses calcium and
so forth. And I don't want to go into the
details of that because we've covered it
on other podcasts and we want to focus on
the on the microplastics here.
It, but when you when you start to look
at you mentioned in the field, it's very
difficult to study just the direct impact
of microplastics on these corals because
we have all these other things that are
affecting it at the same time.
(01:22:22):
Is it possible I know for some people,
some researchers where they actually take
corals and grow them in situ or not in
situ, but in a lab where they can
manipulate the environment a little
better to tease out some of the some of
those cumulative effects.
So in essence, like control light control
(01:22:46):
heat and then expose them to
microplastics. Has that been done so far
before or have you done that or anybody
else in that? Yes. Yes. So there are
several studies where people have done
laboratory experiments like you were
describing to assess the impacts and or
where they have, you know, they have sort
of varied questions.
(01:23:06):
Sometimes the simple question of do will
corals consume microplastics or not. And
it and there's kind of a mixed bag of
results, I think in terms of what's out
there. So depending on the species,
depending on the sort of the details of
the study, you can find that corals.
(01:23:29):
Corals, yes, will eat microplastics and
consume them. They tend to be more likely
to do so if the microplastics have a
biofilm on them. So, you know, like if
you leave something with water in water,
it no matter what, even if the water
looks crystal clear and clean, there's
bacteria in there that will end up
(01:23:50):
causing like a sort of a like a slimy
film on the surface of things.
Yeah.
And so that's that's a biofilm is there's
where there's a sort of like microbial
activity that coats the surface of
something. And that we think the sort of
the the thought behind that is that that
ends up being like a mimicry
(01:24:11):
to something that would be food.
And so the corals might just be pulled
and other organisms to might be pulled
into thinking that this sort of seems
like it is something
edible. And so they ingest it.
In the case of corals. The other thing
that's kind of interesting is they have
also been known to spit out
(01:24:33):
microplastics so they ingest.
And so it's hard to know how much
actually stays in so corals polyps are
just a really simple sack. Yes, they have
just one opening, unlike humans and other
animals, we have to
opening, they just have one.
And so, you know, food and waste comes
(01:24:56):
goes in and out of the same opening.
And so they also don't really have they
have a stomach, but it's not really the
same kind of thing that we have. And so
they don't it's unclear how much
digestion is is going on or whether
they're the same issues that we see with
birds or fish when it
comes to ingestion of plastics.
(01:25:19):
So anyhow, they there's there is this
sort of like complicated story I think of
they definitely do consume. They seem to
consume more when
they're covered with biofilm.
(01:25:53):
And so they are able to also e jest.
They are able to sort of determine. So,
that's, that's, that's, that's out for my
understanding of what we kind of know so
far. Yeah, it's such a broad kind of
subject mattering I think a lot of people
think corals they don't think
of how many different species
(01:26:13):
of corals there are around the world
right there's a lot of different ones
they all react differently to heat to
temperature to to ocean acidification and
I'm sure they all, you know, will will be
different when it comes to microplastics
and their exposure to
microplastics just like nutrients
and so forth. So it becomes a difficult
thing to, you know, to study from the
(01:26:35):
study where you did in the river system
where you looked at sort of how debris
would affect the entire ecosystem.
Was that the approach you took it when
you first started looking at corals is
just how does it affect a coral reef
instead of an individual coral, or did
you go to the individual first.
So for corals we typically the way that
(01:26:57):
I've been studying it as we focus on
individual species. Okay, and not as much
on the overall system although we try to
draw conclusions that can
apply to the overall system.
And so, in, in part, I think some of that
is because the corals that I've been
sitting mostly are in Hawaii.
(01:27:19):
And there are fewer species that are that
are there, especially in a particular bay
that we work in, where there's much of
the bay is dominated by two, two very
distinct species and so a lot of the work
that I've done has been
focused on sort of a comparative
We tend to, at least for me I tend to
(01:27:44):
focus on on the coral and I think that's
in part just because I would consider
myself to be more of a physiologist, like
sort of trying to understand how the
underlying biology is working in this.
That makes sense, that
makes complete sense.
Now at this point of the podcast,
people are listening and they hear, okay,
(01:28:06):
so you're at Villanova University,
fantastic university, right?
One of the best in the country.
You do field work in Hawaii.
So the first thing
people are gonna ask me is,
how do I work with Dr. Rodriguez
so that I can live in Philadelphia
and then I can go to
Hawaii once, maybe twice a year?
Do you get a lot of
students who are also interested?
(01:28:27):
Because coral reef is, you know, when you
first get into marine
biology, especially students,
they want to learn about, you know, the
top subjects are marine mammals, sharks,
and then you have coral reefs.
Do you get a lot of people who come and
be like, hey, look, I've seen your work.
I like what you do. I like where you go.
(01:28:58):
To try to kind of ensure that the people
who do work in the field are ones who are
able to deal with the less glamorous
aspects of, you know,
your elbow deep in seawater on a regular
basis in tanks and corals
smell funny and long hours.
(01:29:19):
We study coral reproduction and that
happens at times
during happy hour typically.
So, you know, we gotta watch corals
reproduce instead of going to happy hour.
So things like that. We
yeah, it's not as glamorous.
There's, you know, it's while it's
amazing and it's beautiful.
It's a really wonderful experience and I
(01:29:39):
feel very privileged to have had them.
You know, it's also
you're working in the hot sun.
It's hard work.
It's a lot of hard work.
It's it can be very physical.
This just swimming alone, you know, and
you work while you're swimming is a lot.
But yeah, we do. We definitely we
(01:30:00):
definitely don't suffer from lack of
volunteers for working in Hawaii or
Puerto Rico, which is
another, which is another area.
Yeah, not too bad in places, right?
Now, but like, you know, talking about
working in in in these places like in the
ocean, if you're you know, a lot of times
you can find corals in shallow areas.
(01:30:22):
But also, you know, I just went to you
know, to Hawaii, like I mentioned, I just
got back and I saw that there were, you
know, hazards in the ocean in terms of
currents and riptides and, you know,
being along the shore in those areas can
be quite dangerous in a way.
You know, the big the big saying there is
don't turn your back ever on the ocean
(01:30:44):
because you never know what it's going to
do the bay that you believe you said
there's one bay that
you that you worked in.
Yes. Where is it? And then and then and
how does it how is that in terms of safe
and safety is in that area?
Sure. So we work primarily off of the
(01:31:04):
coast of Oahu, which is the main island
of Hawaii where where
Honolulu is located.
Yeah, but on the sort of the opposite
side of the mountains from Honolulu,
there's a marine institute there called
the Hawaii Institute of Marine Biology.
And when I was a graduate student to my
PhD and then also since then as a faculty
member of the one over, we've been
(01:31:26):
working there on and off.
It's located in Kaneohe Bay, the largest
base. There is not too far from Lani Kai
that you were talking about earlier.
Yeah, it's a very sheltered bay.
The the Marine Institute is is itself on
(01:31:46):
a small island and that island is
completely surrounded by fringing reefs.
So you don't you barely need to get your
toes wet in order to be able to see the
corals and you and even then you you
could stay fairly dry
and see them from land.
So everything is fairly close. It's one
of the reasons why there's just so much
(01:32:08):
research that is
actually done at that location.
It's it's it's relatively easy to work
with. And then throughout that day, there
are also patch reefs that are kind of
distributed throughout
the inner part of the day.
And then as you get further out into the
into like just sort of at the mouth of
the bay, things can sometimes
(01:32:30):
be a little bit more choppy.
But you know that usually those are more
experienced people will go right that
work out there. So yeah, so yeah, it's a
it's a nice it's a nice place.
It has it. Yeah, they have really great
facilities in terms of on on the island
itself to be able to do experiments. And
(01:32:52):
so we've done before tank experiments
where we can bring corals into tanks and
seawater and do some
manipulations and things like that.
So there's there's a lot of different
things. Yeah, yeah, it's great. Yeah,
that's amazing. You mentioned earlier,
you know, looking at where corals are
situated was important.
You know, near the mouths of river
(01:33:13):
rivers, but not all corals are near the
mouth of mouths of rivers. We know rivers
can be a spot where debris comes out and
micro plastics are created through that.
So have you found a difference in terms
of corals that are closer to rivers being
exposed to marine debris compared to
(01:33:33):
coral reefs that are further away from
those rivers? Is there a significant
difference in those types of exposures?
Yeah, that's a really great question. No,
it kind of depends. So we haven't we've
seen more sediment impacts than direct
debris impacts in those but there'd be
(01:33:54):
some parallels is my guess.
So the corals that are closest to the
mouths of rivers tend to be heavily
impacted by sediments, but I've also seen
in some locations. So in Puerto Rico,
where we work, some of the healthiest
corals that I've seen in that region.
Are right at the mouth of where the there
(01:34:16):
that they're so well
adapted to living there.
You know, this this was a place where I
had to hold hands with my dive buddy in
order to be able to not lose them because
I couldn't see them. I could even barely
see their bubbles from scuba diving.
That's kind of insane. Yeah, that was it
(01:34:38):
was like just pea soup plus there. And
yet the corals that we just like and you
know you don't because it's so just what
the visibility is so bad you kind of it's
sort of like this otherworldly kind of
experience where you kind of swim up
until they're right in front of your face
you realize, oh, wait, this is a coral.
Right.
And I think that's what I was, we're so
(01:34:59):
healthy and what I would describe as a
happy for its polyps were all extended.
It was happily feeding so there can be
some definitely some local adaptations
that are probably happening.
And it's funny, we don't see as much
debris in those kinds of areas. I'm sure
(01:35:20):
it's there at the micro level it's just
very difficult to measure and quantify.
But there's, you know, we tend to see
most things are will be on a reef in
terms of debris, where you have kind of
(01:35:40):
protrusions on the reef things that, you
know, that debris can get
wrapped around or trapped on.
But I think that a lot of the sort of
when the reef is a little bit more smooth
than the debris tends not to get caught,
at least the bigger pieces. And so we
(01:36:01):
typically don't see it all
that much it kind of varies.
So when you say smooth, are you talking
about like, like flat type of corals?
Exactly. Almost like plate corals. Yeah.
So more of like, or even sort of rounded
mounding corals. Right.
So where there's less kind of crevices or
less upper where where you have more
(01:36:22):
branching corals and yes, or other
branching structures or where it does
seem like you're more debris is piling up
and stays and seems there.
That's interesting. That's that's really
yeah I think that's cool. That's cool to
see those those types of differences
(01:36:42):
again looking at the different species
and diversity of the shapes of the corals
in certain in terms of how it kind of
intersects with all these different
pathways that they get exposed. Right.
So you see parallels in other ecosystems
as well. So in mangroves, which are
usually adjacent to these coral reef
(01:37:03):
ecosystems and our trees that are going
to grow in salt water.
They, their roots tend to be the places
that get, you know, plastic bags or rope
or things like that twined around them
and you see that that becomes like sort
of an obvious feature sometimes.
But that in in other areas that are maybe
(01:37:25):
more flushed where the water is able to,
yes, bring things in, but then also pull
stuff out. It may not, you know, water
bottles or things like that might not
stick around all that long in the system.
Because it wouldn't necessarily stick or
connect to it. Exactly. Exactly. It's not
getting trapped in the same way.
So there's so there's the variety of the
(01:37:48):
way the ecosystem looks, but then there's
also the variety of the trash that we
that we produce and how
that how that plays into it.
Yeah. And even though seeing a water
bottle is not good in the ocean, it may
not affect the corals in that situation.
Exactly. It may not have the same kind of
abrasive or shading impacts that that
(01:38:10):
rope or plastic bags can have.
Is there, you know, with all these
different adaptations, different shapes
and different features of a coral and
even where they're where they grow and
where they they're located.
Is there a common method that you can
evaluate the health of the coral in terms
(01:38:30):
of, you know, being exposed to
microplastics, you know, because a lot of
times when we hear about like
microplastics in marine mammals, we see
it in their tissue and the chemicals.
And there's an increase in the chemicals
from those microplastics in their tissue.
So they obviously obviously absorb it
into their system. Doesn't sound like
this is happening with corals or am I
(01:38:51):
wrong here? We just
not gotten to that part.
I think I don't know that we know yet.
Okay. How much chemically there's being
an impact there there's an impact or not.
So yeah, I'm not sure that
we're there yet with corals.
One of the things one of the features
that we typically that has typically well
(01:39:12):
there's two things that we typically
study. One is sort of their
photosynthetic potential. So like how
rarely do we remember that corals are
symbiotic between an allergy and
endosymbic symbiotic algae and an animal.
And then how good the photosynthesis is
is one parameter that we tend to look at
(01:39:32):
when we're looking at that health of the
overall coral. And then another parameter
that we tend to look at are sort of the
energy reserves, like how much fats or
carbohydrates or proteins are being built
up in in the animal portion of that.
And so possibly the plastics could impact
(01:39:53):
both of those areas depending on how
significant it is like you know ingestion
of microplastics could cause sort of
hypothesized to maybe cause self shading
or shading to happen and maybe algae
can't photosynthesize and then if you
can't photosynthesize then
you're not taking in energy.
(01:40:14):
So there could be these
kind of cascading effects.
Some of the species of one of the species
that I've studied in the past in Hawaii
is a really big feeder.
So one of the ways that it is able to
survive coral bleaching is that it tends
to feed on plankton more.
(01:40:36):
And so that could also be another impact
if you're if your little gut is full of
plastics, you know, you won't be able to
maybe feed as much or digest
what you do feed on plankton.
And so there could be these other things.
But at least as far as I know, I haven't
seen studies yet that have taken it to
(01:40:58):
that level that sort of physiological
level with microplastics and corals.
And so that's really cool. Like to see it
feels like we're just scratching the
surface, no pun intended in terms of what
what it could do and really bringing a
light into again no pun intended in terms
(01:41:19):
of how this like the physical aspect of
trash being on a reef
like a plastic bag being
used for is amazing. I was I was walking
in the marina where our hotel was and
there were the corners of the marina
where you just see the devastation of a
lot of the trash that accumulates within
a marina, whether that's from the boaters
(01:41:41):
themselves or just a way that this is
where the currents led them to.
And then this is and this is where it is.
But there were wasn't just like plastic
grocery bags. There were some like
industrial bags and there was like a lot
of debris that you would not expect oil
caps and things like that.
And so it was quite devastating to see
that in you know what I expected like
(01:42:03):
Hawaii to be pristine and and so forth. I
think it's just you know you falling for
that dream of this these Hawaiian waters
being so amazing but they they fall
victim to a lot of pollution, whether
it's from the island itself or from
outside of the island.
And so when you do studies like this, you
(01:42:23):
obviously doing it to see the effect to
see how we can manage it better right in
the overall aspect of how can we lower
the effect of of of marine I guess marine
debris on coral reefs themselves,
especially from this physical aspect.
I know it's early on in the process, but
(01:42:44):
what have you come up with? What have you
seen or even talk to colleagues or even
come up with yourself? We're just saying
like, how can we get rid of this problem?
Like, how can we stop it? Corvies tend to
be really close to shore.
And so I think that's one of the first
sort of one of the first types of
ecosystems that really feels the impact
of this debris. What can we do as a
(01:43:06):
society and and and just like to force
policies to get to stop this from
entering the water or
even affecting the corals?
And so I think that's one of the first types of ecosystems that really is
important to remember, and I think that's
(01:43:28):
one of the first things that's important
to remember is that we can work on this.
And so when you get to your local lake or
river, that is eventually is getting to
the ocean. And so every piece of litter,
(01:43:48):
you know, that is in the city of
Philadelphia, which is where I live, will
eventually end up end up in the ocean.
And I think that I think that's important
for people to be aware of and remember
because I think when, especially if
you're a person who loves the ocean.
(01:44:16):
You know, you're a person who loves the
ocean as well. Or your town or your
neighborhood. Yeah. And kind of thinking
about those sort of local things that you
could do. I think sometimes
there's such a disconnect.
I think that's one thing that's really
(01:44:48):
important where we need to sort of do
better at litter and waste management on
all sorts of levels, even if
we're not a coastal community.
Although as you know, coastal
communities, I think, especially and
usually those are the places where people
are very conscious of
those kinds of things.
(01:45:09):
We also find that this debris travels
really long distances. So some of the
things that we found on beaches in Puerto
Rico, we are pretty sure have come from
the coast of Africa, because of some of
the writing on them.
We think we find some things from the
coast of Brazil, most likely, again,
because of the writing and the language.
(01:45:32):
In some cases, like the item that we're
pretty sure has come from a Brazilian
grocery store was printed in in 2015 and
we're finding it in 2021.
So, you know, so not only are they
traveling long distances, but these
things are in the environment for a
really long time. And so anything that we
(01:45:53):
can do to remove the item in the first
place properly dispose of it, maybe also
rethink what we purchase too.
And this is tough because, you know, as
as a society, especially if your
listeners are maybe mostly in North
America, you are going to have, we don't
(01:46:14):
have a lot of choice, it's really hard to
find like so I sometimes will spend a lot
of time in the grocery store where I try
to find the same product, but in glass,
instead of in plastic
or something like that, or, or can of
some sort. Exactly. Or, you know, switch
to something that is more paper or, you
(01:46:35):
know, instead of shampoo in a bottle.
What about shampoo in a bar
form which is now a thing.
Yeah.
So I think thinking about the small
things that we as individuals can really
do to to pick up the waste when we can
but also not to be producing it in the
first place, I think,
(01:46:55):
can be really beneficial.
And then there's also you know like then
I'd say sort of the next scale up in
terms of community action. We see really
big improvements with regular with
regular cleanups. So one of the things
that we do in Puerto Rico.
We did them twice a year at first and
(01:47:16):
then the wonderful people that are there
are super excited by this and so they've
been doing them more regularly on a bi
monthly basis at two different beaches.
80% of the degree that we find at these
beaches is plastic 80% and so if you but
we also see that if you
(01:47:36):
do these regular cleanups.
You can significantly reduce the total
amount that you find. I mean it's crazy
to think about but you could go every two
months to the same spot and still trash,
even though you cleaned it up, you know,
spotless two months ago.
And so, having that kind of regular
(01:47:57):
investment in people time and effort, I
think is also really important because
doing that builds really big awareness,
right, like start to really appreciate
and start to really think about well if I
don't want to spend my
Saturday morning doing this.
What are some other things that I can do
(01:48:17):
to prevent this from
happening in the first place.
We also work with a lot of local
restaurants in the area near the beaches
in Puerto Rico to try to encourage them
to reduce the packaging that they use to
distribute food and so that can also be
(01:48:38):
something you know, in terms of the
businesses that you support.
And so, you know, maybe your favorite
restaurant or or shop or whatever that is
by the beach, you could always encourage
them to think about paper instead of
plastic or you know, or or dishware
instead of plastic, and those can all
(01:49:01):
have kind of long standing I think
benefits on that kind of scale.
Yeah.
I think that's all phenomenal things
because I really like just working
locally, you know, and it seems like a
lot of this community driven, not only
individually but community like the
cleanups comes from a
community aspect but it comes from.
(01:49:23):
It comes from organizations like rare it
comes from a place of pride, you know,
like you clean up if you spend the time
as a community to clean up these beaches
or these waterways, whether you're in
Philadelphia you're in Burlington you're
in Hawaii you're in
Puerto Rico, you can you
see the difference. Over time, and you
(01:49:45):
start to say hey we're this we actually
can make a difference locally we may not
be able to make it from a world
perspective but we can make it locally we
can keep our Bay, or, or
whatever clean in this particular
area, and then we take pride and we can
talk to people about that and put in and,
you know, going over what works what
doesn't successes and challenges to help
(01:50:06):
other communities do the same thing. I
love that aspect. I even love the aspect
again talking about local community,
going to your favorite eatery and just be
like hey like, I see that
you know you have a lot of plastic
containers, you can you just put in a bag
or can we do something else it'll really
help. We clean up the beach like twice a
month and there's this I see this stuff
all the time. Can we move I really like
(01:50:28):
that connection, and I feel like we've
moved away from that especially in North
America we've moved away from that local
connection and having that relationship
with people you respect, not from a place
of hey don't do this you're an awful
person but hey, I've seen this happen.
And, and a lot of times, you know, your
branding was on it you don't want to see
that at like let's let's try and figure
out ways to do it whether it works or not
(01:50:50):
is something to be to be said like
something to look ahead at but I feel
like that that really helps in terms of
of this of this type of moment but it
seems like people are really just
continue to be disconnected from the
ocean I you know even being even being in
Hawaii, I saw a lot of things that
surprised me, you know,
(01:51:12):
and it comes back to this.
You know, the first thing is you're at a
lot of restaurants when you go away.
Every time a drink came, there was a
straw, you know, compostable
biodegradable or compostable straws which
I know aren't really compostable they're
basically plastic, and and you just sit
there and you're like,
look, I understand people don't
are sick of the plastic straw thing, I
(01:51:33):
get it. And I understand maybe there was
we went too far as as a as a conservation
sort of plethora of like conservation
community to really focus in on that. To
me, it was like a gateway to other
plastics and are just
our usage of plastics.
But it seems like people are almost
rebelling against that, you know, you see
(01:51:53):
the the current administration. We've
seen people just regular people just
being like, I'm just sick of it. I don't
want to have a paper straw.
How do we as as the scientific community
as a conservative people interested in
conservation, not even scientists. How do
we combat that like what's your opinion
on that. When we start to see people
(01:52:17):
rebel against the conservation things
that we want people to take.
I sort of see it as a sort of a fatigue
in a way, right, we're just so sick of
and I get that I totally understand that
there's, you know, sometimes you hear so
much about something that just doesn't
kind of connect like why are we caring
about this tiny little tube.
(01:52:39):
Yeah, I mean, I think one one aspect that
I think is important to keep in mind that
maybe will help with this is all of these
larger pieces of plastic that we use just
one time, whether we dispose of them
correctly, or we don't all of those
things will end up as micro plastics
and as they as they degrade and you know
(01:53:02):
so all of the kind of health impacts and
the things that are these like scary
headlines that you mentioned at the at
the start about where we find where we're
finding micro plastics in the human body.
We can potentially reduce the total
number of micro plastics, if we just get
the big things out and
(01:53:23):
we stop utilizing them.
And also, you know, I think it's also
important to remember with plastic that
there are these big pros and cons you
know it's so imagine you're you have to
go to your doctor's office.
You are going to be pretty darn sure, and
that you want your doctor to be using all
(01:53:44):
kinds of plastic right plastic gloves
plastic, everything, whatever, because
you can see the package being open you
know that it's sterile you know that
it's, you know, so there are definitely
places hospitals are one where we want to
be using yes single use plastics and
where they're really
important for people's health.
(01:54:06):
And, but then there are places where we
don't need them, like if if for the
majority of people who are who are
healthy and have good motor function,
they should be able to drink out of the
glass without a straw, you don't use even
a paper straw, really, right.
And so, you know, it's to think about, I
(01:54:29):
feel like, what are, I think as a
society, we need to decide what are the
types of plastics that we all admit, yes,
actually, these are really important and
in these situations this
is when we want to use them.
But that, you know, I don't need a
plastic bag to carry my loaf of bread
home from the store with me, you know,
(01:54:51):
like I don't, I don't need a plastic
straw in order from it from my glass when
I go out, because I don't use when my
guess is is most people don't
use them when they're at home. Right.
And so I think it's, I feel like that's
the thing that we maybe need to get out
is is to for for scientists and
(01:55:12):
policymakers and conservationists to to
more be more upfront about the fact that
it's you know it's not just about the
straw it's it's about
all of these things that
we really don't need to use so that we
can be in the position to decide which
ones we do want to use and what are the
(01:55:33):
what's the value of those those items.
Yeah, it's like prioritizing the value of
exactly plastics right exactly because
because I do think that we have gone a
little bit overboard with things, you
know, in some cases, maybe, and, and that
you're in that all people have heard is
don't use straws, but they haven't
actually been informed.
They haven't been informed about why that
(01:55:55):
is the case and what
is sort of behind it.
Yeah, and I, you know, there's, there's
also a whole nother aspect of this which
which we haven't really talked about but
it's the the fossil fuel aspect.
And so all plastics that we use
regardless of whether they're
biodegradable or not, are derived from
(01:56:16):
from fossil fuels. Yeah.
And so the more that we use plastics, the
more that we are are dwindling down our
very limited supply
of oil and natural gas.
And so, and, and those are having all
those other impacts that we talked about
that are affected the ocean coral
(01:56:38):
bleaching ocean acidification warming,
all those other things and so there's,
there's this underlying aspects about
plastics that we tend
(01:57:12):
to talk about as much there's the debris part which is huge in which we see.
And so that's 30% of fossil fuel
revenues, revenues to the fossil fuel
industry is coming from plastics. That's,
that's exactly, I mean a big portion,
exactly a big portion of the natural gas
that's being produced in my state of
Pennsylvania gets shipped all around the,
around the world in
order to produce plastics.
(01:57:34):
And so that's not is not necessarily
being used to heat homes or to drive
cars. It's going into plastics and then
we just, you know, we use it once and we
throw it away. And so, again, I think
those are sort of societal questions,
what, what do we as a society think is
important and what do we, what do we want
to have done and, and then I think that
(01:57:55):
helps to drive policy but you know when
policy doesn't necessarily
have to go through the science.
I think that's where the consumer has a
lot of power and can really, really make
a difference by their actions and what
they purchase or don't purchase. And I
(01:58:18):
think that that goes that does mean we
see that often that can go a long way
into making important changes happen.
I mean, I think it's a, it's an
interesting, like complex issue that
we're, that we're in with this type of of
things and again, I think it's the
disconnection from the environment that a
(01:58:40):
lot of people have these days in terms of
let's not interrupt our daily lives to
make these changes to help the ocean when
we don't see a lot of things that are
happening in the ocean for many of us who
live in land, but we're all connected.
connected. And I think when it comes to,
I think you were right, right from the
get go, Lisa, when you mentioned, like,
it's about community, do things,
(01:59:00):
community, do things local. You know,
there used to be that saying that
really, I think it hit home was, you
know, it was an act local, you know,
think globally. And it's, it's still
range true today, we kind of, we don't
say that as much, but it's still, you
know, range true today. And, and all
those things need to be done at a policy
level at a federal and state and, and
(01:59:21):
provincial level and local level, we
still need to act. And we still need to
understand that the way we work, the way
we do things as a society will affect
things down the road. And sometimes we
don't have a lot of say in terms of what
happens, but there are times where we can
take care of our local places and
make a difference. Now, there's a couple
(01:59:42):
more questions I have as we, and this is
a great conversation. I love this
conversation. I can probably have this
conversation for hours and hours and
hours and hours, but I want to be mindful
of your time. There's a couple questions.
The first one is, as you're out in the
field and doing things with your students
and your colleagues, what's the
most frustrating aspect of working with,
you know, the looking at the effects of
(02:00:04):
like microplastics and debris on coral
reefs? What's the,
what's what, and you're
out there, what you like when you see
stuff, as you mentioned before, sometimes
it can be hard to sort of realize how
much, you know, marine debris and
microplastics are out there. What's the
most frustrating thing for you as not
only a scientist, but as a person, as
someone who wants to
protect the ocean and
(02:00:24):
your, your, you know, the lab that you
have, what's the most frustrating you see
as a collective as a lab?
That's a good question. I, I, I guess, I
don't know, it's funny, I don't know that
there's a lot that does frustrate, like,
I feel like there's just so many kind of
exciting things that we've done that we don't have time to get frustrated with.
But I guess, I guess probably thinking
(02:00:45):
about it more, it's really just the, the
pervasiveness of it can can get get you
down and frustrated. Where, you know,
we're because we are seeing these things
so regularly. There is, you know, so like
I said, we've found things that have
traveled very long distances. And at first, there's this like, oh my God, this is so cool. This came from, you know, a lot of people, you know, they're like, oh, I'm not going to do this.
(02:01:15):
And, but then it sort of when it dawns on
you, oh, wow, this thing has been in the
ocean for for many, many years or many, many miles, kilometers. I think that can sometimes get kind of frustrating. Like I was saying before, I think that's a really interesting thing.
You know, I guess a great question is that, you know, when you parts are planetyr 79
(02:01:37):
and you actually, maybe if you're on the ocean that you are on the ocean 40 multiply the fourteen Your two months before.
Two months before cause the picture.
Yes.
So. That, that.
Well. So when we actually quantify it, we do
see that the numbers reduce, but that you
know, just looking at it, it's very hard
sometimes to discern that
(02:01:58):
there has been some improvement.
And so that I think sometimes that can
get a little bit frustrating for people
for just anybody really.
And is that the reduction is that the
actions of people cleaning up or is that
the actions of policies actually working?
I think that's the action of people
cleaning up. Okay, as far as I know, at
(02:02:18):
least in that area, there hasn't been any
real change in policy.
And so I think it's that we are just
cleaning up more regularly. And so we see
it locally in Philadelphia. A colleague
of mine has been working on more upstream
areas of some local rivers.
(02:02:40):
And there we've got some he has some
evidence that shows that plastic bag
bands that are happening in some
municipalities, but not others may be
having an impact on what
they're finding in the river.
So so there is some evidence. Yeah,
policy is is having an impact. Yeah,
(02:03:01):
which is nice. I can both, you know, the
cleanups and, you know, the policies.
It's nice to see that both have the like
the evidence showing that they that they
work. That's really I think that's really
important for for communities to
understand for people to understand
because I think people are like, what's
the what's the like, what can we do?
There's there's microplastics all over
the ocean in the Marian at Marianne a
chance. Like there's nothing we can do
about it. And sometimes we rely too much
(02:03:24):
on government and expecting those
policies to go through.
But we don't actually go out and do the
work ourselves or even work within our
local councils and say, Hey, shouldn't we
if this works, shouldn't we have a
cleanup crew? Like, wouldn't it be great
to have that cleanup crew like here in
Burlington hire some students clean up
the debris on a regular basis and measure
it, see if it reduces, see if it works.
(02:03:46):
Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's really
important to tell people is that it
actually works when it's done, even
though it may not seem like
it is that absolutely right.
Right. Yeah, that's absolutely true is
that, you know, and it partly I think
it's just our memories that it's for sure
to kind of remember what it
was like the last time. Yeah.
But yeah, if you if you take the time to
(02:04:07):
collect the data and it doesn't take a
lot of extra effort to do so, you know,
there are a lot of different
organizations online that have tally
sheets for these kinds of cleanups.
And so, you know, you can find something
that suits you and then it's actually
kind of fun when you're out there and you
pick something up before you put in the
(02:04:28):
bag, you just like make a
little tally of whatever it is.
Yep. Because that could also, you know,
help you identify where
things are coming from.
But then it can also help, you know, the
totals at least can help you see whether
any new policies are having an impact and
that's what we are starting to see.
So really at sort of township or
(02:04:50):
municipality levels or city levels,
depending on sort of how your how your
area is organized can can sometimes pass
specific legislation around just their,
their, for their area.
And those like plastic bag bands or what
(02:05:11):
have you, those can have really strong
benefits to them over
overtime, at least it seems like.
Yeah, no, absolutely. I think I think it
will. And I think we just need to
reiterate that and communicate that fact
to the people that it does actually work
because I think a lot of people are just
so disconnected from from that aspect.
(02:05:32):
So last question I have for you. And this
I find is an interesting one as well is
what are you, what studies that you that
how you have upcoming or that you are
working on right now that may not have
been published on yet what are you
excited about studying looking at or
maybe even some preliminary results that
you're just like, oh, this
is going to be interesting.
(02:05:54):
Yeah, we have a couple different micro
plastic related studies that will
hopefully be coming out in the next few
months or year a year maybe, but we have
some of that we have, we've looked at
micro plastics in lionfish, which are an
invasive species in the Caribbean,
and we have the opportunity for there's a
some groups of people that cull them
(02:06:16):
remove them from the
environment in the Atlantic.
And the total of the sort of in the 50s I
think was the total number so decent
amount. And they average about six micro
(02:06:40):
plastics per fish. Wow. They're not like
terribly big fish either. They're not
huge. Yeah, they're not huge and size
didn't seem to play a role in this at
all, which was also kind of interesting,
which we were not not expecting.
So, you know, that could be one of the
things that is difficult to do with micro
(02:07:01):
plastics is sometimes, especially for
organisms, you have to harm them in order
to figure out what you have.
And that's, you know, that's not ideal
when all our species are already under
threat for all variety of different
reasons. So, you know, the invasive
species maybe becomes an ideal target, we
(02:07:22):
want to remove it anyway.
And so then we can also study these other
aspects of it. So that's one of the
things that we've been we've been doing
with a former grad student of mine.
And then, you know, we're also kind of
looking at this idea of when did micro
plastics, like when do we first start
seeing them in the environment. And so
(02:07:46):
we've been taking cores where we sort of
dig down into the sediment.
Yeah, to look at different layers over
time. And so far, we have not been able
to get down deep enough, but we don't see
any so we that's scary.
That's scary. It's a lot. It could be.
(02:08:06):
Yeah, I mean, it could be because these
are mostly beach environments and sort of
turn over quite a bit anyway so that
might be the case. We're going to start
looking at these and other in others are
more stable environments, too.
But, you know, I think that's kind of
exciting. And I think that can have
really can really make people sort of
(02:08:28):
take notice of just how how far it's not
just sort of on the surface and and
spatial, but that there also is a lot of
time behind this as well.
And that I think, you know, that that can
that really the time for us to stop some
(02:08:50):
of these bad behaviors is now. Yeah, or
we just kind of continue to push this
into the future. And I think that kind of
a study can really show help show that
and help depict the sort of the
timeliness of these kinds of problems.
Yeah. So is it safe to say in your
studies, your focus now a lot of it is on
(02:09:13):
like the question is, is where is
microplastics impacting the marine
environment? Because it's not just coral
reefs. It sounds like it's looking at,
okay, let's look at where it starts and
how far down does it go.
Let's look at is it affecting, you know,
invasive fish and using that as an
opportunity to study, you know, as we're
as we're taking them out. Is that safe to
say that your question is like how do
(02:09:34):
microplastics affect even the coastal
environment or a tropical environment?
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, there's
to me because of just how connected all
of these things are in space, but also
how they behave with each other.
I think it it becomes in some ways it to
me, I feel like I've sort of moved a
(02:09:56):
little bit past corals in some ways.
Yeah, I, you know, I know that there
there are so many different other avenues
that we can look at and we can still tie
it back to the coral reef ecosystem.
So yeah, I think that that that does that
is accurate that we definitely have been
moving into some of these other areas. A
(02:10:18):
lot of it is driven by students actually,
though, you know, sometimes it's students
who come with their
ideas and their interests.
And so that helps to kind of broaden some
of the things that we're also doing.
Yeah, I love I love that aspect. I love
what you're doing. I love what you and
your labs are doing and even empowering this thing.
And I think that brings a lot of interest
(02:10:46):
and creativity into into your program.
And I think it comes up with a lot of
results that we've seen. And I'd love,
Lisa, for you to come back on the
podcast, talk about more of these studies
so that we can see these results and they
can people can hear them for themselves
and hear some optimism from that policies
work, beach cleanups work.
It may not look like it, but it does. And
I think that's that's wonderful. So I
(02:11:07):
want to thank you so much for coming on
the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
It's been it's been great to have you on.
I can't wait to have you on again.
Thank you. Thanks, Andrew. I was really
nice to chat with you about all of this.
Thank you, Lisa, for joining us on
today's episode of the How to Protect the
Ocean podcast. I can't wait to have you
back to talk more about some of the
research that's coming up and some of the
stuff that you're going to be publishing
on and getting results on.
(02:11:28):
It sounds really incredible. It sounds
like it's needed. It sounds like we need
to know how the environment is effective
so that we can put management and
policies in place so that we can get rid
of this stuff. Right? That's how
important it is. That's why it's
important to have scientists like Lisa
and the people in her lab to go out and
do this type of work. It's not easy work,
(02:11:48):
even though, you know, working in Puerto
Rico, working in Hawaii sounds like a
wonderful trip. And I'm sure there are
aspects of the trip and when they go in
the field that are phenomenal. But it's also very difficult to do that.
It's difficult to see environmental
degradation like they see each and every
day and to have that optimism that the
stuff is working, you know, beach and
coastal cleanups as well as policies in
(02:12:09):
certain places that are working. We need
to talk more about that. We need to get
that more on podcasts like this on videos
like you're watching on
YouTube on social media.
And what's important to see me put out is
the fact that there are places where it
works and it's unique to everybody, but
we need to find out more of where these
policies and these cleanups are actually
working. And that's why it's important
(02:12:29):
when you do a cleanup or you do a policy,
you measure and evaluate the results.
That's important part. And you adapt to
the management and what is working for
other people and what doesn't work for
certain places around the world. So it's
really important to connect everything
together, but it's also important to act
locally to think globally.
That's what we're going to be talking
more about in upcoming podcasts, getting
(02:12:51):
that optimism back. Getting the fact is
that we are connected to the ocean
always, no matter where you live, where
you live in Burlington, Ontario or live
in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, or you
live in Hawaii or Puerto Rico where you
see the ocean every day. We're all
connected to the ocean in some kind of
way. And we need to make sure that our
communities, our own regions are
protected and we take
care of them as a community.
(02:13:12):
We can't just let other people do it. We
can't let the marine conservationists and
the conservationists and the scientists
leave it up to them to do it. We have to
do this. We have to take care of our
local area. And that's including myself
to need to be more connected to where we
are. But that's what we're going to talk
about in future episodes. But I hope you
enjoyed this episode. Lisa was such a
great communicator. Want to have her back
on soon. And I told her after I said, you
(02:13:33):
should be on more podcasts. You should be
doing more of this because people need to
know what you're up to. Because I think
it's really important.
But also I want to thank Lisa. I want to
thank her lab for the work that they do.
And I want to thank you for listening to
this episode of the how to protect the
ocean podcast. If you want to know more
about how to protect the ocean, you can
subscribe to our YouTube channel. You can
subscribe to our Spotify channel, watch
(02:13:54):
the video on Spotify or listen to it on
your Spotify app. You can also listen to
an Apple podcast on Amazon. But if you
want to find out if your favorite podcast
app is available, go to our website
speakupforblue.com. That's speakupforblue.com.
Forward slash podcast to be able to
listen to all of our episodes and find
(02:14:14):
your favorite podcast app so that you can
connect to it on the go on the run and
listen to it each and every time Monday,
Wednesday and Friday when we release
episodes. So if you want to go there
speakupforblue.com. If you have any
questions or any concerns, you can email
me from that website or you can hit me up
on Instagram at how to protect the ocean.
That's at how to protect the ocean. I
want to thank you so much for joining me
(02:14:36):
on today's episode of the how to protect
the ocean podcast. Have a great day.
We'll talk to you next
time and have a conservation.
How do microplastics affect tropical
marine systems like coral reefs,
lionfish, or even just the shoreline?
Sometimes you're walking along a beach
and you look down and you see these blue
and white and maybe green little pieces
that are kind of laid out under the sand
or maybe they're just exposed from the
sand along this beach.
(01:00:21):
You're on a beautiful beach, you've got a
beautiful sunset going, the waves are
crashing in and you see these little
pieces. Those are microplastics. Those
are not part of the ocean.
They came in from the ocean at some point
and they're just laid out on the beach
and that can affect different types of
animals within marine systems.
So today we're going to actually discuss
how it affects marine ecosystems and what
(01:00:43):
we need to do about them and if policies
and beach cleanups actually help.
We are going to talk to Dr. Lisa
Rodriguez, who is an associate professor
of geography and the environment at
Villanova University.
She is here to talk about her research
and her lab's research on microplastics
in marine tropical environments,
including coral reefs, including
(01:01:03):
lionfish, including the beaches along
every shoreline that she works at in
Puerto Rico, in Hawaii, and so forth.
We're going to talk all about
microplastics and the marine environment
on this episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean podcast.
Let's start the show.
Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another
exciting episode of the How to Protect
(01:01:23):
the Ocean podcast. I'm
your host, Andrew Lewin.
And this is the podcast where you find
out what's happening with the ocean, how
you can speak up with the ocean, what you
can do to live for a better ocean by
taking action on today's episode.
We are going to be talking about
microplastics in the marine environment.
We've heard about microplastics being in
the air, in the water, in
our bodies. It's everywhere.
It is something that is a huge concern
(01:01:45):
from a health perspective of humans and
from an environmental health perspective.
When we talk about the planet, we use
microplastics and single plastics more
and more every day beyond plastic straws.
Okay, we'll go beyond, although we
discussed it in this interview, we go
beyond plastic straws. We go and just
what connects and what traps coral reefs
(01:02:06):
and how it's affecting coral reefs, how
it affects fish like
lionfish, which is invasive.
So we're going to study those. And we
also look at sediment cores. We talk a
little bit at the end about studies to
come and when microplastics actually
started in the marine environment.
This is a great episode. Dr. Lisa
Rodriguez, a professor of geography and
(01:02:26):
the environment at Villanova University,
is here today to discuss her research on
microplastics in the marine environment,
not just on coral reefs, which is, I
thought, first, what we were going to be
talking about focusing most of the show
on, even though we
talked a lot about that.
But there's other parts of the marine
environment that are affected by
microplastics and something that we need
to be concerned with. And we need to make
sure that the efforts that are done with
(01:02:48):
beach and coastal cleanups, as well as
policies in place to ban specific single
use plastics, do they actually work?
And sometimes they may work, but we don't
actually see it for ourselves anecdotally
when we're out in the marine environment.
It's a little bit misleading, but the
data shows that it actually works.
So we're going to find out all about that
and why that is in this interview with
(01:03:10):
Dr. Lisa Rodriguez. So here is the
interview enjoy and I
will talk to you after.
Hey Lisa, welcome to the How to Protect
the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk
about microplastics and
their effects on coral reefs?
Hey Andrew, thanks for having me. I'm
excited to be here and
to chat more about that.
All right, I'm looking forward to this is
gonna be a lot of fun. I say a lot of fun
because we're gonna be talking about
(01:03:30):
studies and research that are that's
going on. Obviously the topic doesn't
sound like a lot of fun in terms of the
effects on coral reefs, but we're going
to get into all of that. Before we do,
though, Lisa, why don't you just let us
know who you are and what you do?
Sure. My name is Lisa Rodriguez. I'm a
professor at Villanova University, which
is just outside of Philadelphia.
(01:03:51):
Awesome. Now, studying in Philadelphia
coral reefs, not something that you find
every day. I live in Burlington, Ontario,
just outside of Toronto, surrounded by
the Great Lakes. I say I'm a marine
biologist. Everybody's like, what are you
doing in Ontario? So I want to know how
did you end up in in in Philadelphia?
(01:04:11):
Obviously a fantastic university. How did
you end up in Philadelphia?
Yeah, so I first moved to Philadelphia to
do my PhD here at the University of
Pennsylvania where I did study coral
reefs. Most of that field work though was
done in Hawaii. So
that's not a bad deal, right?
Not a bad deal at all.
(01:04:32):
Part of your time in Philadelphia, part
of your time in Hawaii. Yeah. Before
that, I actually was in your neck of the
woods. I did a master's at
the University of Toronto.
Awesome.
Yeah. I lived in Toronto for a few years.
I got my undergrad from Dalhousie
University in Halifax, Nova Scotia. But I
actually grew up and I think where a lot
(01:04:53):
of my interest came from is I grew up in
Bermuda. And so on a tiny island in the
Atlantic surrounded by corals and coral
reefs. And I think, you know, that was
just is what sort of generated my
interest in marine biology and corals.
And I think that's sort of what led me
(01:05:14):
down this path to where I am today.
That's quite an adventurous childhood to
grow up in somewhere like, you know, very
small island of Bermuda. That's a huge
destination from for people here in
Canada because it's so close. And it's
such a lovely island.
I had a friend who lived out there. She
was an accountant over there, which a lot
of accountants start their careers over
(01:05:34):
there. And she would scuba dive on on her
as a hobby. And she learned to scuba dive
there. And then she
would got into the internet.
(01:06:05):
And then she just comes in a bit of retaliate. Andthen led her to a group group part of TagOUT G
showing out, a supervisor who wrote this
book of ten textiles on an Indian site, he thought he let her do a subpartite. But she was like, Well, like, I can't stop. And then she didn't express her ability to work specifically up to find a Pra Fantasy that that she had just published. If not, I'm talking aboutNo one practice.
or seeing the degradation
of reefs and other animals
and environments as you grew up.
Did you notice as a child
or was it just like so young
that you didn't have a
chance to notice that?
I think some aspects I noticed.
(01:06:25):
So certainly there were
things that would wash up
on the shore when you
would go to the beach
that clearly didn't
come from local areas,
but I definitely more when I go back now,
my family still lives there.
And when I travel back over the years
that I've lived away
(01:06:45):
that I feel like those are the times
where I've really noticed it much more
is just sort of seeing
that increase over time.
It was actually a few years ago,
I was visiting over the winter holidays
and we had all gone out, my
family and other families,
we'd gone out to a
(01:07:06):
restaurant that is right on the beach.
And after we had lunch, we
were walking along the beach.
And I was so surprised by
basically every step that I took,
there were pieces of
microplastic that I could see
as we were just walking.
And that was actually, I
mean, I'd studied corals
for many years prior to
(01:07:27):
that, but that was probably
the first time where I
realized, oh, this is something else
that I think we really
need to learn more about.
It's so interesting you
mentioned that because I was just,
I just got back from a trip
in Hawaii, beautiful place.
Obviously, you just talked about it, you
know, a lot of corals,
a lot of studies that
are being done there.
(01:07:48):
And the one thing I noticed, we went to
this wonderful beach,
Lanakai Beach, gorgeous area on a wall.
Oh, I know that. Yeah,
that is a great place.
It's beautiful. The sand is
like fine, fine, fine sand.
It feels so great on your feet.
We that's the beach where we notice the
microplastics the most.
And the funny thing is I overheard some
people saying like the people
that were besides they thought it was
something from the ocean.
(01:08:09):
Like they thought it was, you know,
sometimes you have these little pieces
of what looks like
glass, but it's not glass.
It's actually from the ocean.
And they thought that's what it was.
They thought it was from the ocean.
They didn't like the fact that I told
them, actually, it's not marine
biologist here.
That's not from the ocean.
I mean, it's from the
ocean, but it shouldn't be.
It's a microplastic.
But they had no idea.
Do you think there is a like from I mean,
(01:08:30):
obviously you and I know,
especially doing a lot of work on
microplastics and so forth.
Do you find that there's a lot of people
that may not know how to identify
those microplastics if they just see it
on a beach because sometimes it's kind
of hidden. Sometimes it's white and
sometimes it's blue.
So sometimes it could look like a shelf.
You don't touch it.
Do you find that there's a little bit of
that naivete around that?
(01:08:52):
Absolutely. Yeah.
And I think I think that goes for all
kinds of litter and debris.
Right. We don't.
So, you know, if you think about just
driving your car around the road or
something, unless you what what I've
learned in the last couple of years,
working with people doing cleanups is
that when you start looking for it,
(01:09:15):
realize that it's so
pervasive and is everywhere.
But that until you reach that point where
your eye is kind of trained for it
and doesn't take long to become sort of
trained with this is then you see it
everywhere and it's actually really
difficult not to see it.
Like we actually apologize to people when
they join us in cleanups for the first
(01:09:37):
time because because we
say, you know, this is great.
And we're happy that you're here.
But just so you know, you're never going
to look and you're going
to see this everywhere.
No matter where you look, you'll see.
Yeah. And so that applies to what we
would call macro debris, like the larger
pieces, as well as the microplastics is
once you start to see it,
you realize just how
(01:09:58):
pervasive it really is.
And it's like you want
more people to know that.
But you also don't want to ruin people's
sort of idea of what the ocean is and
what it should be and what a beach should
be our shoreline should be.
But once you learn it's like, ah, these
scientists, they're always bringing us
down, making us more
aware of stuff, you know.
But it's it's it's interesting, you know,
(01:10:19):
as as you grow up, you know, in a place
like Bermuda and the idea of just Bermuda
just sounds wonderful.
Right. It must have been a fun childhood.
And you you again, you don't, as you
mentioned, you probably didn't really
notice a lot of the things
that that happened there.
And maybe, you know, when you're a child,
like when I was a child, it maybe wasn't
as persistent as it was today.
(01:10:40):
And as we use more and more plastics,
when I when I grew up, Coke
was still out of a glass bottle.
You know, that's the
generation that I've from.
So may not have been
persistent as it is today.
What type of sort of like games did you
get up to or what kind of like life did
you have as a child
growing up in an island?
(01:11:00):
Were you in the water a lot or, you know,
some island communities don't
like to be in the water a lot.
There's a definite fear.
Were you always, always wanting to be in
the water growing up, you
know, being a marine biologist?
I definitely was.
I mean, I don't I had I know what you
mean about sometimes people
prefer not to be in the water.
And I definitely know people
who fit into that category.
(01:11:21):
But for for me, I was
always I was always in the ocean.
So, you know, that's where I learned how
to swim, was being sort of thrown out of
a boat and sort of to
see what's going to happen.
And and, you know, a
lot of my summer jobs
(01:11:42):
through the time that I was in school,
but also when I would go
home from university were
were related to to the
marine environment in some way.
It's just some
aspects of science locally.
I like my favorite place there still, I
feel like I could give them a plug is if
you if you're visiting
from you to go check out the
(01:12:03):
Bermuda Aquarium Museum and Zoo.
It's like a wonderful place.
You can't get into the water.
That's like a really great place to see
the fish and of the other
animals that we have there.
And really just that I spent a lot of my
time there and then also involved in
research as I got older as well.
(01:12:25):
And so, yeah, I really did.
We really did spend our time like I
remember playing with sea cucumbers on
the beach in my summer holidays because
we would collect them and then play with
them on the on the beach afterwards
before putting them back.
Right.
Yeah, so it's just to me, it was just
like the normal thing that you did.
And those were the kinds of
things that I learned about
(01:12:46):
and really grew to appreciate and love.
And it was really, I think, getting my
interest in science and and having, you
know, sort of a more science background
as I went into college and
university was really about
wanting to understand how those different
things worked, what was
going on in the ecosystem.
(01:13:09):
And I was just always really interested
in just learning more about them.
Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, it's it's it's
for me as someone who has the same likes.
I mean, that is the dream, right, is to
grow up and to be around the ocean.
Can you pinpoint a time in your life
where you're just like, I want to learn
more about these and this is what I want
to do as a career, like as a because
(01:13:29):
growing up, you know,
you're near the Bermuda
Institute of Oceanography,
you are around the water.
Was there any time in that childhood or
did that come later as
you went to university?
And I so I think it was
really early on, actually.
Yeah.
Like I said, for me, it was there.
(01:13:49):
I was sort of spent more time at the
aquarium and they have a research
component there as well.
And so I think, you know, probably from
the time that I was in middle school,
maybe even earlier than that, I I knew
that I like my dream job probably still
would be to work there.
(01:14:11):
But yeah, like I knew that I didn't I
didn't know like what it meant to be a
scientist really or to be a professor.
So that wasn't on my radar.
Right. But I knew that
I wanted to do science.
They knew that I wanted to do science, be
involved in science in some way related
to to the marine environment.
(01:14:31):
And so and so that's actually why I ended
up going to Dalhousie was that they have
a really good marine
program there on the East Coast.
Yeah. Yeah. And they've they've
diversified quite a bit now.
Their marine affairs program and their
their science and research
is just top notch in Canada.
It's it's it's quite lovely.
That's awesome. So you have like, you
(01:14:52):
know, growing up from, you know,
obviously Canada is really close.
So you learn about Canada
and then you end up in the U.S.
Right. Afterwards.
And when you come out of of Dalhousie,
was it still coral reefs on your mind?
Was that still what you wanted to study
or was there is was is that when the
microplastics started to come into play?
(01:15:12):
No. So, yeah, my sort of research sort of
trajectory was after I finished, I had a
degree in biology from Dalhousie.
I knew that I wanted to do a master's.
I really enjoyed I had some experience
doing research at Dalhousie and I knew
that I wanted to kind of keep doing that.
(01:15:32):
So I looked around.
I ended up doing a project actually
partially based in Bermuda and partially
based in Toronto on.
I worked in a lab that focused on
crustacean behavior and I studied an
organism that's on reefs.
It's a hermit crab that's
actually endemic to Bermuda.
(01:15:53):
OK, that's actually really cool.
It's a really cool hermit crabs.
Hermit crabs are awesome.
That one of the things that I found out
about it is that the the males are
primarily mobile in the way that we would
imagine hermit crabs to be.
They walk around in shells, but it's
unique in that the majority of females of
(01:16:14):
the species actually live in tubes that
are fixed to the reef.
And so they cannot move around.
And I did not know that.
Yeah. And so it's a really interesting.
Again, I would. This is one.
I haven't studied
this in years and years.
Yeah. Look at it again.
But there's there's a lot of kind of just
interesting behavior that we studied
related related to that, like whether
(01:16:36):
there was some choice in
what the females were doing.
Turns out that there's not.
They're kind of relegated to live in
things like suboptimal little tubes.
Yeah.
That's so I studied that at the
University of Toronto.
I actually took a year off after that and
worked in Bermuda at at the aquarium
(01:16:57):
doing research more on
terrestrial work there.
And then I ended up finding an
opportunity at the University of
Pennsylvania to do a PhD.
And that's really where I got into like
corals, coral ecosystems.
Right.
And it wasn't until in the last sort of
like five or six years that I've been at
Villanova as a faculty member that it
(01:17:22):
just sort of became clear that studying
plastics, marine debris in general, as
well as micro plastics was something that
I would like to do to more of.
I've been working with a colleague of
mine in my department who focuses on
river ecosystems and we were studying in
(01:17:43):
Puerto Rico, the impacts of pollutants
coming down the river, mostly focused on
sort of dissolved pollutants like
sediments and things like that.
And so we were able to get
(01:18:05):
funding to continue that work.
And that's kind of how I sort of
transitioned into that area.
Okay.
And now, you know, we've seen, you know,
micro plastics really come to the
forefront of sort of one of the major
issues, I would say in in the ocean in
general, even in our world.
I think it's really exploded over the
last, I'd say five or six years,
(01:18:27):
especially the last two years where we're
starting to see studies come out and
being published of, you know, micro
plastics being in our body, being in the
air, being in the water.
And as as marine biologists growing up in
the last two decades, you
know, we've seen microplastic.
We knew that was a microplastic problem
before there was a microplastic, even
(01:18:47):
just a plastic debris problem.
We knew that was a problem.
We could see it, you know, continuing.
Not much had been done with
it over the last two decades.
Now we're really starting to see more
policies put in place, studies being
done, really starting to see some of the
major consequences of these actions and
the non-actions of
what hasn't taken place.
(01:19:08):
Seeing, you know, studying
coral reefs and marine debris.
Why coral reefs at this point?
You know, like it's such a broad subject
and obviously you want to
niche into a certain place.
Totally understandable.
Why coral reefs?
So there's there are so many other
stressors that are on coral reefs, some
(01:19:28):
of which I've studied.
And so this, you know, we all there are
many studies that have shown when you
have these sort of multiple stressors,
just like with humans, you know,
you're sick, you're more likely to have
something else happen to you or you, you
know, it's harder to do things.
And that's the same thing with corals is
(01:19:48):
while they're much simpler organisms,
they're, they're definitely this sort of
compounding aspect of multiple stressors
is something that is really important
because we're sort of
throwing many, many things at them.
And so this sort of felt like kind of a
natural next step for the research that I
was doing was previously mostly focused
(01:20:11):
on some of the physiological impacts,
like sort of what's happening in the
corals body when
different stress stressors happen.
And so to sort of now tie in this other
aspect, I know we haven't directly there.
There are other studies out there. We
haven't directly in my lab looked at what
(01:20:32):
the direct impacts are of microplastics
on corals in part because it's very
difficult to study in the field, which I
think is where the
important questions are.
And so instead what we've been doing is
looking at some of the more broader
ecosystem impacts of beaches, mangroves
and tropical river systems that are sort
(01:20:54):
of all adjacent to coral reef ecosystems.
And so we're looking at where it lands.
So like, where does it sit for a little
for a while, because then that can kind
of tell us where we're more likely to
(01:21:16):
find microplastics and maybe also give us
some clues as to where, where we can kind
of do some prevention and
more management activities.
And so I just got into a lot there and I
want to kind of break it down a little
bit. Sure. There's there was so much
there that was kind of juicy from a
scientific point of view that I wanted to
break down. We talked about cumulative
(01:21:36):
effects in in coral reefs. Now,
obviously, you know, we have bleaching
because of major heat, sun, like even
even more sunlight exposure. We have
ocean acidification are some of the three
major things that have caused, you know,
mass coral bleaching in the past and even
just the development of
with ocean acidification.
The problem in developing stony corals or
(01:21:59):
any kind of coral that uses calcium and
so forth. And I don't want to go into the
details of that because we've covered it
on other podcasts and we want to focus on
the on the microplastics here.
It, but when you when you start to look
at you mentioned in the field, it's very
difficult to study just the direct impact
of microplastics on these corals because
we have all these other things that are
affecting it at the same time.
(01:22:22):
Is it possible I know for some people,
some researchers where they actually take
corals and grow them in situ or not in
situ, but in a lab where they can
manipulate the environment a little
better to tease out some of the some of
those cumulative effects.
So in essence, like control light control
(01:22:46):
heat and then expose them to
microplastics. Has that been done so far
before or have you done that or anybody
else in that? Yes. Yes. So there are
several studies where people have done
laboratory experiments like you were
describing to assess the impacts and or
where they have, you know, they have sort
of varied questions.
(01:23:06):
Sometimes the simple question of do will
corals consume microplastics or not. And
it and there's kind of a mixed bag of
results, I think in terms of what's out
there. So depending on the species,
depending on the sort of the details of
the study, you can find that corals.
(01:23:29):
Corals, yes, will eat microplastics and
consume them. They tend to be more likely
to do so if the microplastics have a
biofilm on them. So, you know, like if
you leave something with water in water,
it no matter what, even if the water
looks crystal clear and clean, there's
bacteria in there that will end up
(01:23:50):
causing like a sort of a like a slimy
film on the surface of things.
Yeah.
And so that's that's a biofilm is there's
where there's a sort of like microbial
activity that coats the surface of
something. And that we think the sort of
the the thought behind that is that that
ends up being like a mimicry
(01:24:11):
to something that would be food.
And so the corals might just be pulled
and other organisms to might be pulled
into thinking that this sort of seems
like it is something
edible. And so they ingest it.
In the case of corals. The other thing
that's kind of interesting is they have
also been known to spit out
(01:24:33):
microplastics so they ingest.
And so it's hard to know how much
actually stays in so corals polyps are
just a really simple sack. Yes, they have
just one opening, unlike humans and other
animals, we have to
opening, they just have one.
And so, you know, food and waste comes
(01:24:56):
goes in and out of the same opening.
And so they also don't really have they
have a stomach, but it's not really the
same kind of thing that we have. And so
they don't it's unclear how much
digestion is is going on or whether
they're the same issues that we see with
birds or fish when it
comes to ingestion of plastics.
(01:25:19):
So anyhow, they there's there is this
sort of like complicated story I think of
they definitely do consume. They seem to
consume more when
they're covered with biofilm.
(01:25:53):
And so they are able to also e jest.
They are able to sort of determine. So,
that's, that's, that's, that's out for my
understanding of what we kind of know so
far. Yeah, it's such a broad kind of
subject mattering I think a lot of people
think corals they don't think
of how many different species
(01:26:13):
of corals there are around the world
right there's a lot of different ones
they all react differently to heat to
temperature to to ocean acidification and
I'm sure they all, you know, will will be
different when it comes to microplastics
and their exposure to
microplastics just like nutrients
and so forth. So it becomes a difficult
thing to, you know, to study from the
(01:26:35):
study where you did in the river system
where you looked at sort of how debris
would affect the entire ecosystem.
Was that the approach you took it when
you first started looking at corals is
just how does it affect a coral reef
instead of an individual coral, or did
you go to the individual first.
So for corals we typically the way that
(01:26:57):
I've been studying it as we focus on
individual species. Okay, and not as much
on the overall system although we try to
draw conclusions that can
apply to the overall system.
And so, in, in part, I think some of that
is because the corals that I've been
sitting mostly are in Hawaii.
(01:27:19):
And there are fewer species that are that
are there, especially in a particular bay
that we work in, where there's much of
the bay is dominated by two, two very
distinct species and so a lot of the work
that I've done has been
focused on sort of a comparative
We tend to, at least for me I tend to
(01:27:44):
focus on on the coral and I think that's
in part just because I would consider
myself to be more of a physiologist, like
sort of trying to understand how the
underlying biology is working in this.
That makes sense, that
makes complete sense.
Now at this point of the podcast,
people are listening and they hear, okay,
(01:28:06):
so you're at Villanova University,
fantastic university, right?
One of the best in the country.
You do field work in Hawaii.
So the first thing
people are gonna ask me is,
how do I work with Dr. Rodriguez
so that I can live in Philadelphia
and then I can go to
Hawaii once, maybe twice a year?
Do you get a lot of
students who are also interested?
(01:28:27):
Because coral reef is, you know, when you
first get into marine
biology, especially students,
they want to learn about, you know, the
top subjects are marine mammals, sharks,
and then you have coral reefs.
Do you get a lot of people who come and
be like, hey, look, I've seen your work.
I like what you do. I like where you go.
(01:28:58):
To try to kind of ensure that the people
who do work in the field are ones who are
able to deal with the less glamorous
aspects of, you know,
your elbow deep in seawater on a regular
basis in tanks and corals
smell funny and long hours.
(01:29:19):
We study coral reproduction and that
happens at times
during happy hour typically.
So, you know, we gotta watch corals
reproduce instead of going to happy hour.
So things like that. We
yeah, it's not as glamorous.
There's, you know, it's while it's
amazing and it's beautiful.
It's a really wonderful experience and I
(01:29:39):
feel very privileged to have had them.
You know, it's also
you're working in the hot sun.
It's hard work.
It's a lot of hard work.
It's it can be very physical.
This just swimming alone, you know, and
you work while you're swimming is a lot.
But yeah, we do. We definitely we
(01:30:00):
definitely don't suffer from lack of
volunteers for working in Hawaii or
Puerto Rico, which is
another, which is another area.
Yeah, not too bad in places, right?
Now, but like, you know, talking about
working in in in these places like in the
ocean, if you're you know, a lot of times
you can find corals in shallow areas.
(01:30:22):
But also, you know, I just went to you
know, to Hawaii, like I mentioned, I just
got back and I saw that there were, you
know, hazards in the ocean in terms of
currents and riptides and, you know,
being along the shore in those areas can
be quite dangerous in a way.
You know, the big the big saying there is
don't turn your back ever on the ocean
(01:30:44):
because you never know what it's going to
do the bay that you believe you said
there's one bay that
you that you worked in.
Yes. Where is it? And then and then and
how does it how is that in terms of safe
and safety is in that area?
Sure. So we work primarily off of the
(01:31:04):
coast of Oahu, which is the main island
of Hawaii where where
Honolulu is located.
Yeah, but on the sort of the opposite
side of the mountains from Honolulu,
there's a marine institute there called
the Hawaii Institute of Marine Biology.
And when I was a graduate student to my
PhD and then also since then as a faculty
member of the one over, we've been
(01:31:26):
working there on and off.
It's located in Kaneohe Bay, the largest
base. There is not too far from Lani Kai
that you were talking about earlier.
Yeah, it's a very sheltered bay.
The the Marine Institute is is itself on
(01:31:46):
a small island and that island is
completely surrounded by fringing reefs.
So you don't you barely need to get your
toes wet in order to be able to see the
corals and you and even then you you
could stay fairly dry
and see them from land.
So everything is fairly close. It's one
of the reasons why there's just so much
(01:32:08):
research that is
actually done at that location.
It's it's it's relatively easy to work
with. And then throughout that day, there
are also patch reefs that are kind of
distributed throughout
the inner part of the day.
And then as you get further out into the
into like just sort of at the mouth of
the bay, things can sometimes
(01:32:30):
be a little bit more choppy.
But you know that usually those are more
experienced people will go right that
work out there. So yeah, so yeah, it's a
it's a nice it's a nice place.
It has it. Yeah, they have really great
facilities in terms of on on the island
itself to be able to do experiments. And
(01:32:52):
so we've done before tank experiments
where we can bring corals into tanks and
seawater and do some
manipulations and things like that.
So there's there's a lot of different
things. Yeah, yeah, it's great. Yeah,
that's amazing. You mentioned earlier,
you know, looking at where corals are
situated was important.
You know, near the mouths of river
(01:33:13):
rivers, but not all corals are near the
mouth of mouths of rivers. We know rivers
can be a spot where debris comes out and
micro plastics are created through that.
So have you found a difference in terms
of corals that are closer to rivers being
exposed to marine debris compared to
(01:33:33):
coral reefs that are further away from
those rivers? Is there a significant
difference in those types of exposures?
Yeah, that's a really great question. No,
it kind of depends. So we haven't we've
seen more sediment impacts than direct
debris impacts in those but there'd be
(01:33:54):
some parallels is my guess.
So the corals that are closest to the
mouths of rivers tend to be heavily
impacted by sediments, but I've also seen
in some locations. So in Puerto Rico,
where we work, some of the healthiest
corals that I've seen in that region.
Are right at the mouth of where the there
(01:34:16):
that they're so well
adapted to living there.
You know, this this was a place where I
had to hold hands with my dive buddy in
order to be able to not lose them because
I couldn't see them. I could even barely
see their bubbles from scuba diving.
That's kind of insane. Yeah, that was it
(01:34:38):
was like just pea soup plus there. And
yet the corals that we just like and you
know you don't because it's so just what
the visibility is so bad you kind of it's
sort of like this otherworldly kind of
experience where you kind of swim up
until they're right in front of your face
you realize, oh, wait, this is a coral.
Right.
And I think that's what I was, we're so
(01:34:59):
healthy and what I would describe as a
happy for its polyps were all extended.
It was happily feeding so there can be
some definitely some local adaptations
that are probably happening.
And it's funny, we don't see as much
debris in those kinds of areas. I'm sure
(01:35:20):
it's there at the micro level it's just
very difficult to measure and quantify.
But there's, you know, we tend to see
most things are will be on a reef in
terms of debris, where you have kind of
(01:35:40):
protrusions on the reef things that, you
know, that debris can get
wrapped around or trapped on.
But I think that a lot of the sort of
when the reef is a little bit more smooth
than the debris tends not to get caught,
at least the bigger pieces. And so we
(01:36:01):
typically don't see it all
that much it kind of varies.
So when you say smooth, are you talking
about like, like flat type of corals?
Exactly. Almost like plate corals. Yeah.
So more of like, or even sort of rounded
mounding corals. Right.
So where there's less kind of crevices or
less upper where where you have more
(01:36:22):
branching corals and yes, or other
branching structures or where it does
seem like you're more debris is piling up
and stays and seems there.
That's interesting. That's that's really
yeah I think that's cool. That's cool to
see those those types of differences
(01:36:42):
again looking at the different species
and diversity of the shapes of the corals
in certain in terms of how it kind of
intersects with all these different
pathways that they get exposed. Right.
So you see parallels in other ecosystems
as well. So in mangroves, which are
usually adjacent to these coral reef
(01:37:03):
ecosystems and our trees that are going
to grow in salt water.
They, their roots tend to be the places
that get, you know, plastic bags or rope
or things like that twined around them
and you see that that becomes like sort
of an obvious feature sometimes.
But that in in other areas that are maybe
(01:37:25):
more flushed where the water is able to,
yes, bring things in, but then also pull
stuff out. It may not, you know, water
bottles or things like that might not
stick around all that long in the system.
Because it wouldn't necessarily stick or
connect to it. Exactly. Exactly. It's not
getting trapped in the same way.
So there's so there's the variety of the
(01:37:48):
way the ecosystem looks, but then there's
also the variety of the trash that we
that we produce and how
that how that plays into it.
Yeah. And even though seeing a water
bottle is not good in the ocean, it may
not affect the corals in that situation.
Exactly. It may not have the same kind of
abrasive or shading impacts that that
(01:38:10):
rope or plastic bags can have.
Is there, you know, with all these
different adaptations, different shapes
and different features of a coral and
even where they're where they grow and
where they they're located.
Is there a common method that you can
evaluate the health of the coral in terms
(01:38:30):
of, you know, being exposed to
microplastics, you know, because a lot of
times when we hear about like
microplastics in marine mammals, we see
it in their tissue and the chemicals.
And there's an increase in the chemicals
from those microplastics in their tissue.
So they obviously obviously absorb it
into their system. Doesn't sound like
this is happening with corals or am I
(01:38:51):
wrong here? We just
not gotten to that part.
I think I don't know that we know yet.
Okay. How much chemically there's being
an impact there there's an impact or not.
So yeah, I'm not sure that
we're there yet with corals.
One of the things one of the features
that we typically that has typically well
(01:39:12):
there's two things that we typically
study. One is sort of their
photosynthetic potential. So like how
rarely do we remember that corals are
symbiotic between an allergy and
endosymbic symbiotic algae and an animal.
And then how good the photosynthesis is
is one parameter that we tend to look at
(01:39:32):
when we're looking at that health of the
overall coral. And then another parameter
that we tend to look at are sort of the
energy reserves, like how much fats or
carbohydrates or proteins are being built
up in in the animal portion of that.
And so possibly the plastics could impact
(01:39:53):
both of those areas depending on how
significant it is like you know ingestion
of microplastics could cause sort of
hypothesized to maybe cause self shading
or shading to happen and maybe algae
can't photosynthesize and then if you
can't photosynthesize then
you're not taking in energy.
(01:40:14):
So there could be these
kind of cascading effects.
Some of the species of one of the species
that I've studied in the past in Hawaii
is a really big feeder.
So one of the ways that it is able to
survive coral bleaching is that it tends
to feed on plankton more.
(01:40:36):
And so that could also be another impact
if you're if your little gut is full of
plastics, you know, you won't be able to
maybe feed as much or digest
what you do feed on plankton.
And so there could be these other things.
But at least as far as I know, I haven't
seen studies yet that have taken it to
(01:40:58):
that level that sort of physiological
level with microplastics and corals.
And so that's really cool. Like to see it
feels like we're just scratching the
surface, no pun intended in terms of what
what it could do and really bringing a
light into again no pun intended in terms
(01:41:19):
of how this like the physical aspect of
trash being on a reef
like a plastic bag being
used for is amazing. I was I was walking
in the marina where our hotel was and
there were the corners of the marina
where you just see the devastation of a
lot of the trash that accumulates within
a marina, whether that's from the boaters
(01:41:41):
themselves or just a way that this is
where the currents led them to.
And then this is and this is where it is.
But there were wasn't just like plastic
grocery bags. There were some like
industrial bags and there was like a lot
of debris that you would not expect oil
caps and things like that.
And so it was quite devastating to see
that in you know what I expected like
(01:42:03):
Hawaii to be pristine and and so forth. I
think it's just you know you falling for
that dream of this these Hawaiian waters
being so amazing but they they fall
victim to a lot of pollution, whether
it's from the island itself or from
outside of the island.
And so when you do studies like this, you
(01:42:23):
obviously doing it to see the effect to
see how we can manage it better right in
the overall aspect of how can we lower
the effect of of of marine I guess marine
debris on coral reefs themselves,
especially from this physical aspect.
I know it's early on in the process, but
(01:42:44):
what have you come up with? What have you
seen or even talk to colleagues or even
come up with yourself? We're just saying
like, how can we get rid of this problem?
Like, how can we stop it? Corvies tend to
be really close to shore.
And so I think that's one of the first
sort of one of the first types of
ecosystems that really feels the impact
of this debris. What can we do as a
(01:43:06):
society and and and just like to force
policies to get to stop this from
entering the water or
even affecting the corals?
And so I think that's one of the first types of ecosystems that really is
important to remember, and I think that's
(01:43:28):
one of the first things that's important
to remember is that we can work on this.
And so when you get to your local lake or
river, that is eventually is getting to
the ocean. And so every piece of litter,
(01:43:48):
you know, that is in the city of
Philadelphia, which is where I live, will
eventually end up end up in the ocean.
And I think that I think that's important
for people to be aware of and remember
because I think when, especially if
you're a person who loves the ocean.
(01:44:16):
You know, you're a person who loves the
ocean as well. Or your town or your
neighborhood. Yeah. And kind of thinking
about those sort of local things that you
could do. I think sometimes
there's such a disconnect.
I think that's one thing that's really
(01:44:48):
important where we need to sort of do
better at litter and waste management on
all sorts of levels, even if
we're not a coastal community.
Although as you know, coastal
communities, I think, especially and
usually those are the places where people
are very conscious of
those kinds of things.
(01:45:09):
We also find that this debris travels
really long distances. So some of the
things that we found on beaches in Puerto
Rico, we are pretty sure have come from
the coast of Africa, because of some of
the writing on them.
We think we find some things from the
coast of Brazil, most likely, again,
because of the writing and the language.
(01:45:32):
In some cases, like the item that we're
pretty sure has come from a Brazilian
grocery store was printed in in 2015 and
we're finding it in 2021.
So, you know, so not only are they
traveling long distances, but these
things are in the environment for a
really long time. And so anything that we
(01:45:53):
can do to remove the item in the first
place properly dispose of it, maybe also
rethink what we purchase too.
And this is tough because, you know, as
as a society, especially if your
listeners are maybe mostly in North
America, you are going to have, we don't
(01:46:14):
have a lot of choice, it's really hard to
find like so I sometimes will spend a lot
of time in the grocery store where I try
to find the same product, but in glass,
instead of in plastic
or something like that, or, or can of
some sort. Exactly. Or, you know, switch
to something that is more paper or, you
(01:46:35):
know, instead of shampoo in a bottle.
What about shampoo in a bar
form which is now a thing.
Yeah.
So I think thinking about the small
things that we as individuals can really
do to to pick up the waste when we can
but also not to be producing it in the
first place, I think,
(01:46:55):
can be really beneficial.
And then there's also you know like then
I'd say sort of the next scale up in
terms of community action. We see really
big improvements with regular with
regular cleanups. So one of the things
that we do in Puerto Rico.
We did them twice a year at first and
(01:47:16):
then the wonderful people that are there
are super excited by this and so they've
been doing them more regularly on a bi
monthly basis at two different beaches.
80% of the degree that we find at these
beaches is plastic 80% and so if you but
we also see that if you
(01:47:36):
do these regular cleanups.
You can significantly reduce the total
amount that you find. I mean it's crazy
to think about but you could go every two
months to the same spot and still trash,
even though you cleaned it up, you know,
spotless two months ago.
And so, having that kind of regular
(01:47:57):
investment in people time and effort, I
think is also really important because
doing that builds really big awareness,
right, like start to really appreciate
and start to really think about well if I
don't want to spend my
Saturday morning doing this.
What are some other things that I can do
(01:48:17):
to prevent this from
happening in the first place.
We also work with a lot of local
restaurants in the area near the beaches
in Puerto Rico to try to encourage them
to reduce the packaging that they use to
distribute food and so that can also be
(01:48:38):
something you know, in terms of the
businesses that you support.
And so, you know, maybe your favorite
restaurant or or shop or whatever that is
by the beach, you could always encourage
them to think about paper instead of
plastic or you know, or or dishware
instead of plastic, and those can all
(01:49:01):
have kind of long standing I think
benefits on that kind of scale.
Yeah.
I think that's all phenomenal things
because I really like just working
locally, you know, and it seems like a
lot of this community driven, not only
individually but community like the
cleanups comes from a
community aspect but it comes from.
(01:49:23):
It comes from organizations like rare it
comes from a place of pride, you know,
like you clean up if you spend the time
as a community to clean up these beaches
or these waterways, whether you're in
Philadelphia you're in Burlington you're
in Hawaii you're in
Puerto Rico, you can you
see the difference. Over time, and you
(01:49:45):
start to say hey we're this we actually
can make a difference locally we may not
be able to make it from a world
perspective but we can make it locally we
can keep our Bay, or, or
whatever clean in this particular
area, and then we take pride and we can
talk to people about that and put in and,
you know, going over what works what
doesn't successes and challenges to help
(01:50:06):
other communities do the same thing. I
love that aspect. I even love the aspect
again talking about local community,
going to your favorite eatery and just be
like hey like, I see that
you know you have a lot of plastic
containers, you can you just put in a bag
or can we do something else it'll really
help. We clean up the beach like twice a
month and there's this I see this stuff
all the time. Can we move I really like
(01:50:28):
that connection, and I feel like we've
moved away from that especially in North
America we've moved away from that local
connection and having that relationship
with people you respect, not from a place
of hey don't do this you're an awful
person but hey, I've seen this happen.
And, and a lot of times, you know, your
branding was on it you don't want to see
that at like let's let's try and figure
out ways to do it whether it works or not
(01:50:50):
is something to be to be said like
something to look ahead at but I feel
like that that really helps in terms of
of this of this type of moment but it
seems like people are really just
continue to be disconnected from the
ocean I you know even being even being in
Hawaii, I saw a lot of things that
surprised me, you know,
(01:51:12):
and it comes back to this.
You know, the first thing is you're at a
lot of restaurants when you go away.
Every time a drink came, there was a
straw, you know, compostable
biodegradable or compostable straws which
I know aren't really compostable they're
basically plastic, and and you just sit
there and you're like,
look, I understand people don't
are sick of the plastic straw thing, I
(01:51:33):
get it. And I understand maybe there was
we went too far as as a as a conservation
sort of plethora of like conservation
community to really focus in on that. To
me, it was like a gateway to other
plastics and are just
our usage of plastics.
But it seems like people are almost
rebelling against that, you know, you see
(01:51:53):
the the current administration. We've
seen people just regular people just
being like, I'm just sick of it. I don't
want to have a paper straw.
How do we as as the scientific community
as a conservative people interested in
conservation, not even scientists. How do
we combat that like what's your opinion
on that. When we start to see people
(01:52:17):
rebel against the conservation things
that we want people to take.
I sort of see it as a sort of a fatigue
in a way, right, we're just so sick of
and I get that I totally understand that
there's, you know, sometimes you hear so
much about something that just doesn't
kind of connect like why are we caring
about this tiny little tube.
(01:52:39):
Yeah, I mean, I think one one aspect that
I think is important to keep in mind that
maybe will help with this is all of these
larger pieces of plastic that we use just
one time, whether we dispose of them
correctly, or we don't all of those
things will end up as micro plastics
and as they as they degrade and you know
(01:53:02):
so all of the kind of health impacts and
the things that are these like scary
headlines that you mentioned at the at
the start about where we find where we're
finding micro plastics in the human body.
We can potentially reduce the total
number of micro plastics, if we just get
the big things out and
(01:53:23):
we stop utilizing them.
And also, you know, I think it's also
important to remember with plastic that
there are these big pros and cons you
know it's so imagine you're you have to
go to your doctor's office.
You are going to be pretty darn sure, and
that you want your doctor to be using all
(01:53:44):
kinds of plastic right plastic gloves
plastic, everything, whatever, because
you can see the package being open you
know that it's sterile you know that
it's, you know, so there are definitely
places hospitals are one where we want to
be using yes single use plastics and
where they're really
important for people's health.
(01:54:06):
And, but then there are places where we
don't need them, like if if for the
majority of people who are who are
healthy and have good motor function,
they should be able to drink out of the
glass without a straw, you don't use even
a paper straw, really, right.
And so, you know, it's to think about, I
(01:54:29):
feel like, what are, I think as a
society, we need to decide what are the
types of plastics that we all admit, yes,
actually, these are really important and
in these situations this
is when we want to use them.
But that, you know, I don't need a
plastic bag to carry my loaf of bread
home from the store with me, you know,
(01:54:51):
like I don't, I don't need a plastic
straw in order from it from my glass when
I go out, because I don't use when my
guess is is most people don't
use them when they're at home. Right.
And so I think it's, I feel like that's
the thing that we maybe need to get out
is is to for for scientists and
(01:55:12):
policymakers and conservationists to to
more be more upfront about the fact that
it's you know it's not just about the
straw it's it's about
all of these things that
we really don't need to use so that we
can be in the position to decide which
ones we do want to use and what are the
(01:55:33):
what's the value of those those items.
Yeah, it's like prioritizing the value of
exactly plastics right exactly because
because I do think that we have gone a
little bit overboard with things, you
know, in some cases, maybe, and, and that
you're in that all people have heard is
don't use straws, but they haven't
actually been informed.
They haven't been informed about why that
(01:55:55):
is the case and what
is sort of behind it.
Yeah, and I, you know, there's, there's
also a whole nother aspect of this which
which we haven't really talked about but
it's the the fossil fuel aspect.
And so all plastics that we use
regardless of whether they're
biodegradable or not, are derived from
(01:56:16):
from fossil fuels. Yeah.
And so the more that we use plastics, the
more that we are are dwindling down our
very limited supply
of oil and natural gas.
And so, and, and those are having all
those other impacts that we talked about
that are affected the ocean coral
(01:56:38):
bleaching ocean acidification warming,
all those other things and so there's,
there's this underlying aspects about
plastics that we tend
(01:57:12):
to talk about as much there's the debris part which is huge in which we see.
And so that's 30% of fossil fuel
revenues, revenues to the fossil fuel
industry is coming from plastics. That's,
that's exactly, I mean a big portion,
exactly a big portion of the natural gas
that's being produced in my state of
Pennsylvania gets shipped all around the,
around the world in
order to produce plastics.
(01:57:34):
And so that's not is not necessarily
being used to heat homes or to drive
cars. It's going into plastics and then
we just, you know, we use it once and we
throw it away. And so, again, I think
those are sort of societal questions,
what, what do we as a society think is
important and what do we, what do we want
to have done and, and then I think that
(01:57:55):
helps to drive policy but you know when
policy doesn't necessarily
have to go through the science.
I think that's where the consumer has a
lot of power and can really, really make
a difference by their actions and what
they purchase or don't purchase. And I
(01:58:18):
think that that goes that does mean we
see that often that can go a long way
into making important changes happen.
I mean, I think it's a, it's an
interesting, like complex issue that
we're, that we're in with this type of of
things and again, I think it's the
disconnection from the environment that a
(01:58:40):
lot of people have these days in terms of
let's not interrupt our daily lives to
make these changes to help the ocean when
we don't see a lot of things that are
happening in the ocean for many of us who
live in land, but we're all connected.
connected. And I think when it comes to,
I think you were right, right from the
get go, Lisa, when you mentioned, like,
it's about community, do things,
(01:59:00):
community, do things local. You know,
there used to be that saying that
really, I think it hit home was, you
know, it was an act local, you know,
think globally. And it's, it's still
range true today, we kind of, we don't
say that as much, but it's still, you
know, range true today. And, and all
those things need to be done at a policy
level at a federal and state and, and
(01:59:21):
provincial level and local level, we
still need to act. And we still need to
understand that the way we work, the way
we do things as a society will affect
things down the road. And sometimes we
don't have a lot of say in terms of what
happens, but there are times where we can
take care of our local places and
make a difference. Now, there's a couple
(01:59:42):
more questions I have as we, and this is
a great conversation. I love this
conversation. I can probably have this
conversation for hours and hours and
hours and hours, but I want to be mindful
of your time. There's a couple questions.
The first one is, as you're out in the
field and doing things with your students
and your colleagues, what's the
most frustrating aspect of working with,
you know, the looking at the effects of
(02:00:04):
like microplastics and debris on coral
reefs? What's the,
what's what, and you're
out there, what you like when you see
stuff, as you mentioned before, sometimes
it can be hard to sort of realize how
much, you know, marine debris and
microplastics are out there. What's the
most frustrating thing for you as not
only a scientist, but as a person, as
someone who wants to
protect the ocean and
(02:00:24):
your, your, you know, the lab that you
have, what's the most frustrating you see
as a collective as a lab?
That's a good question. I, I, I guess, I
don't know, it's funny, I don't know that
there's a lot that does frustrate, like,
I feel like there's just so many kind of
exciting things that we've done that we don't have time to get frustrated with.
But I guess, I guess probably thinking
(02:00:45):
about it more, it's really just the, the
pervasiveness of it can can get get you
down and frustrated. Where, you know,
we're because we are seeing these things
so regularly. There is, you know, so like
I said, we've found things that have
traveled very long distances. And at first, there's this like, oh my God, this is so cool. This came from, you know, a lot of people, you know, they're like, oh, I'm not going to do this.
(02:01:15):
And, but then it sort of when it dawns on
you, oh, wow, this thing has been in the
ocean for for many, many years or many, many miles, kilometers. I think that can sometimes get kind of frustrating. Like I was saying before, I think that's a really interesting thing.
You know, I guess a great question is that, you know, when you parts are planetyr 79
(02:01:37):
and you actually, maybe if you're on the ocean that you are on the ocean 40 multiply the fourteen Your two months before.
Two months before cause the picture.
Yes.
So. That, that.
Well. So when we actually quantify it, we do
see that the numbers reduce, but that you
know, just looking at it, it's very hard
sometimes to discern that
(02:01:58):
there has been some improvement.
And so that I think sometimes that can
get a little bit frustrating for people
for just anybody really.
And is that the reduction is that the
actions of people cleaning up or is that
the actions of policies actually working?
I think that's the action of people
cleaning up. Okay, as far as I know, at
(02:02:18):
least in that area, there hasn't been any
real change in policy.
And so I think it's that we are just
cleaning up more regularly. And so we see
it locally in Philadelphia. A colleague
of mine has been working on more upstream
areas of some local rivers.
(02:02:40):
And there we've got some he has some
evidence that shows that plastic bag
bands that are happening in some
municipalities, but not others may be
having an impact on what
they're finding in the river.
So so there is some evidence. Yeah,
policy is is having an impact. Yeah,
(02:03:01):
which is nice. I can both, you know, the
cleanups and, you know, the policies.
It's nice to see that both have the like
the evidence showing that they that they
work. That's really I think that's really
important for for communities to
understand for people to understand
because I think people are like, what's
the what's the like, what can we do?
There's there's microplastics all over
the ocean in the Marian at Marianne a
chance. Like there's nothing we can do
about it. And sometimes we rely too much
(02:03:24):
on government and expecting those
policies to go through.
But we don't actually go out and do the
work ourselves or even work within our
local councils and say, Hey, shouldn't we
if this works, shouldn't we have a
cleanup crew? Like, wouldn't it be great
to have that cleanup crew like here in
Burlington hire some students clean up
the debris on a regular basis and measure
it, see if it reduces, see if it works.
(02:03:46):
Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's really
important to tell people is that it
actually works when it's done, even
though it may not seem like
it is that absolutely right.
Right. Yeah, that's absolutely true is
that, you know, and it partly I think
it's just our memories that it's for sure
to kind of remember what it
was like the last time. Yeah.
But yeah, if you if you take the time to
(02:04:07):
collect the data and it doesn't take a
lot of extra effort to do so, you know,
there are a lot of different
organizations online that have tally
sheets for these kinds of cleanups.
And so, you know, you can find something
that suits you and then it's actually
kind of fun when you're out there and you
pick something up before you put in the
(02:04:28):
bag, you just like make a
little tally of whatever it is.
Yep. Because that could also, you know,
help you identify where
things are coming from.
But then it can also help, you know, the
totals at least can help you see whether
any new policies are having an impact and
that's what we are starting to see.
So really at sort of township or
(02:04:50):
municipality levels or city levels,
depending on sort of how your how your
area is organized can can sometimes pass
specific legislation around just their,
their, for their area.
And those like plastic bag bands or what
(02:05:11):
have you, those can have really strong
benefits to them over
overtime, at least it seems like.
Yeah, no, absolutely. I think I think it
will. And I think we just need to
reiterate that and communicate that fact
to the people that it does actually work
because I think a lot of people are just
so disconnected from from that aspect.
(02:05:32):
So last question I have for you. And this
I find is an interesting one as well is
what are you, what studies that you that
how you have upcoming or that you are
working on right now that may not have
been published on yet what are you
excited about studying looking at or
maybe even some preliminary results that
you're just like, oh, this
is going to be interesting.
(02:05:54):
Yeah, we have a couple different micro
plastic related studies that will
hopefully be coming out in the next few
months or year a year maybe, but we have
some of that we have, we've looked at
micro plastics in lionfish, which are an
invasive species in the Caribbean,
and we have the opportunity for there's a
some groups of people that cull them
(02:06:16):
remove them from the
environment in the Atlantic.
And the total of the sort of in the 50s I
think was the total number so decent
amount. And they average about six micro
(02:06:40):
plastics per fish. Wow. They're not like
terribly big fish either. They're not
huge. Yeah, they're not huge and size
didn't seem to play a role in this at
all, which was also kind of interesting,
which we were not not expecting.
So, you know, that could be one of the
things that is difficult to do with micro
(02:07:01):
plastics is sometimes, especially for
organisms, you have to harm them in order
to figure out what you have.
And that's, you know, that's not ideal
when all our species are already under
threat for all variety of different
reasons. So, you know, the invasive
species maybe becomes an ideal target, we
(02:07:22):
want to remove it anyway.
And so then we can also study these other
aspects of it. So that's one of the
things that we've been we've been doing
with a former grad student of mine.
And then, you know, we're also kind of
looking at this idea of when did micro
plastics, like when do we first start
seeing them in the environment. And so
(02:07:46):
we've been taking cores where we sort of
dig down into the sediment.
Yeah, to look at different layers over
time. And so far, we have not been able
to get down deep enough, but we don't see
any so we that's scary.
That's scary. It's a lot. It could be.
(02:08:06):
Yeah, I mean, it could be because these
are mostly beach environments and sort of
turn over quite a bit anyway so that
might be the case. We're going to start
looking at these and other in others are
more stable environments, too.
But, you know, I think that's kind of
exciting. And I think that can have
really can really make people sort of
(02:08:28):
take notice of just how how far it's not
just sort of on the surface and and
spatial, but that there also is a lot of
time behind this as well.
And that I think, you know, that that can
that really the time for us to stop some
(02:08:50):
of these bad behaviors is now. Yeah, or
we just kind of continue to push this
into the future. And I think that kind of
a study can really show help show that
and help depict the sort of the
timeliness of these kinds of problems.
Yeah. So is it safe to say in your
studies, your focus now a lot of it is on
(02:09:13):
like the question is, is where is
microplastics impacting the marine
environment? Because it's not just coral
reefs. It sounds like it's looking at,
okay, let's look at where it starts and
how far down does it go.
Let's look at is it affecting, you know,
invasive fish and using that as an
opportunity to study, you know, as we're
as we're taking them out. Is that safe to
say that your question is like how do
(02:09:34):
microplastics affect even the coastal
environment or a tropical environment?
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, there's
to me because of just how connected all
of these things are in space, but also
how they behave with each other.
I think it it becomes in some ways it to
me, I feel like I've sort of moved a
(02:09:56):
little bit past corals in some ways.
Yeah, I, you know, I know that there
there are so many different other avenues
that we can look at and we can still tie
it back to the coral reef ecosystem.
So yeah, I think that that that does that
is accurate that we definitely have been
moving into some of these other areas. A
(02:10:18):
lot of it is driven by students actually,
though, you know, sometimes it's students
who come with their
ideas and their interests.
And so that helps to kind of broaden some
of the things that we're also doing.
Yeah, I love I love that aspect. I love
what you're doing. I love what you and
your labs are doing and even empowering this thing.
And I think that brings a lot of interest
(02:10:46):
and creativity into into your program.
And I think it comes up with a lot of
results that we've seen. And I'd love,
Lisa, for you to come back on the
podcast, talk about more of these studies
so that we can see these results and they
can people can hear them for themselves
and hear some optimism from that policies
work, beach cleanups work.
It may not look like it, but it does. And
I think that's that's wonderful. So I
(02:11:07):
want to thank you so much for coming on
the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
It's been it's been great to have you on.
I can't wait to have you on again.
Thank you. Thanks, Andrew. I was really
nice to chat with you about all of this.
Thank you, Lisa, for joining us on
today's episode of the How to Protect the
Ocean podcast. I can't wait to have you
back to talk more about some of the
research that's coming up and some of the
stuff that you're going to be publishing
on and getting results on.
(02:11:28):
It sounds really incredible. It sounds
like it's needed. It sounds like we need
to know how the environment is effective
so that we can put management and
policies in place so that we can get rid
of this stuff. Right? That's how
important it is. That's why it's
important to have scientists like Lisa
and the people in her lab to go out and
do this type of work. It's not easy work,
(02:11:48):
even though, you know, working in Puerto
Rico, working in Hawaii sounds like a
wonderful trip. And I'm sure there are
aspects of the trip and when they go in
the field that are phenomenal. But it's also very difficult to do that.
It's difficult to see environmental
degradation like they see each and every
day and to have that optimism that the
stuff is working, you know, beach and
coastal cleanups as well as policies in
(02:12:09):
certain places that are working. We need
to talk more about that. We need to get
that more on podcasts like this on videos
like you're watching on
YouTube on social media.
And what's important to see me put out is
the fact that there are places where it
works and it's unique to everybody, but
we need to find out more of where these
policies and these cleanups are actually
working. And that's why it's important
(02:12:29):
when you do a cleanup or you do a policy,
you measure and evaluate the results.
That's important part. And you adapt to
the management and what is working for
other people and what doesn't work for
certain places around the world. So it's
really important to connect everything
together, but it's also important to act
locally to think globally.
That's what we're going to be talking
more about in upcoming podcasts, getting
(02:12:51):
that optimism back. Getting the fact is
that we are connected to the ocean
always, no matter where you live, where
you live in Burlington, Ontario or live
in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, or you
live in Hawaii or Puerto Rico where you
see the ocean every day. We're all
connected to the ocean in some kind of
way. And we need to make sure that our
communities, our own regions are
protected and we take
care of them as a community.
(02:13:12):
We can't just let other people do it. We
can't let the marine conservationists and
the conservationists and the scientists
leave it up to them to do it. We have to
do this. We have to take care of our
local area. And that's including myself
to need to be more connected to where we
are. But that's what we're going to talk
about in future episodes. But I hope you
enjoyed this episode. Lisa was such a
great communicator. Want to have her back
on soon. And I told her after I said, you
(02:13:33):
should be on more podcasts. You should be
doing more of this because people need to
know what you're up to. Because I think
it's really important.
But also I want to thank Lisa. I want to
thank her lab for the work that they do.
And I want to thank you for listening to
this episode of the how to protect the
ocean podcast. If you want to know more
about how to protect the ocean, you can
subscribe to our YouTube channel. You can
subscribe to our Spotify channel, watch
(02:13:54):
the video on Spotify or listen to it on
your Spotify app. You can also listen to
an Apple podcast on Amazon. But if you
want to find out if your favorite podcast
app is available, go to our website
speakupforblue.com. That's speakupforblue.com.
Forward slash podcast to be able to
listen to all of our episodes and find
(02:14:14):
your favorite podcast app so that you can
connect to it on the go on the run and
listen to it each and every time Monday,
Wednesday and Friday when we release
episodes. So if you want to go there
speakupforblue.com. If you have any
questions or any concerns, you can email
me from that website or you can hit me up
on Instagram at how to protect the ocean.
That's at how to protect the ocean. I
want to thank you so much for joining me
(02:14:36):
on today's episode of the how to protect
the ocean podcast. Have a great day.
We'll talk to you next
time and have a conservation.
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