April 8, 2025 • 9 mins
Intersex marine mammals are an exceptionally rare topic in marine biology, and in this episode, we dive into a groundbreaking discovery of an intersex southern right whale. The whale, sampled in 1989, was recently found to possess XY chromosomes through genetic testing. This revelation opens up new conversations about sex differentiation in marine species and the complexities of whale biology that scientists are only beginning to uncover.
Southern right whale research has long been essential to ocean conservation, but this case adds an entirely new layer. Through a discussion of how genetic tests were used to identify the condition, we explore what this discovery means for marine science, the implications for studying biodiversity, and how it might shape future marine mammal research. Tune in to hear about a unique scientific moment that redefines our understanding of sex in the ocean world.
Link to article: https://nautil.us/discovering-the-first-intersex-southern-right-whale-1201412/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
We're going to be
(00:00):
talking about an
interesting
discovery on
today's episode
of the how to
protect the ocean
podcast. We're
gonna be talking
about intersex
marine mammals.
That's right.
We're gonna be
talking about
marine mammals
that have the X
XY chromosome
because there was
a new discovery
that came out in
a paper where
marine biologists
did a genetic
test and found
that a southern
right whale that
(00:20):
was sampled back
in 1989 has X
XY chromosomes.
This is very rare
in marine
mammals. It's
something that we
have to talk
about and we're
going to talk
about today. So
let's start the
show. Hey
everybody,
welcome back to
another exciting
episode of the
how to protect
the ocean
podcast. I'm your
host,
Andrew Lewin.
And this is a
podcast where you
find out what's
happening with
the ocean, how
you can speak
up for the ocean,
(00:41):
what you need to
do to live for a
better ocean by
taking
action on today's
episode, we're
going to be
talking about all
things marine
mammals and
genetic testing
and what in the
world is an
intersex
organism. This is
going to be a lot
of fun. I
know there's
a lot of
political debates
around this and
political talk
around what is
intersex? What's
transgender? What
is all this stuff
(01:01):
around, you know,
different types
of genders
and stuff.
This is not the
case. It's not
one of those
topics. We are
going to be
talking about
intersex.
This is not the
same as
transgender. This
is not the same
as anything that
we're
just talking
about genetic
material that has
XXY chromosomes.
Normally, XX
chromosomes, a
female XY
chromosome
is a male. So
we're talking
(01:21):
about animals
that have the
genetic material
of XXY as
well as some
have noticeably
seen having
different both
reproductive
organs present at
the time of death
when they're
actually in the
crops because
that's when we
actually see what
is
happening. So we're
going to talk
about that today.
Like I said, this
is not a
political thing.
This is
just what we
(01:42):
discovered in
science. I want
to get that right
up there because
I know people in
the comments are
going to be like,
you're just
pushing an agenda
that says nothing
to do with any
political agenda.
This is science.
This is what's
been discovered
and what I think
is something
that's pretty
cool to help us
understand these
animals.
We're going to
just talk about,
you know, how
this all came to
be. So 1989,
researchers
collected
skin samples
from southern
(02:02):
right whales off
the Argentina's
Valdez Peninsula
to study the
species genetic
diversity.
So they're just
looking at
genetic
diversity.
Decades later in
2022, Carla
Crossman, a
graduate student
from St.
Mary's University
in Halifax, Nova
Scotia, go
Canada, analyzed
these samples and
encountered an
anomaly
with one whale
labeled EAU10B.
(02:22):
This initial
chromosome
analysis
suggested that
EAU10B was female
possessing two X
chromosomes,
which is typical
of females.
However, further
testing revealed
the presence of
the SRY gene
typically found
in Y chromosome
and associated
with male
development.
So doing even
more further
testing and
figuring out that
there is a Y
chromosome, they
(02:43):
just found out
this individual
has a chromosome
configuration
of XXY
identifying it as
the first
documented
intersex southern
right whale. This
is pretty cool.
And it's very
rare to find
these types of
intersex
individuals in
marine mammals
because we don't
really get to see
and get a lot of
genetic testing
in marine
mammals.
Although further
research has
discovered that
we can take more
tissue samples
(03:03):
and stuff, but
it's very
difficult to work
with marine
mammals for
obvious reasons.
They're not a lot
in captivity. A
lot of them are
in the wild. It's
very difficult to
get samples in
general.
We're just
discovering
patterns of the
species and
really getting to
know those
species. So more
genetic testing,
I'm sure, will
reveal this if
it's tested. The
one thing in this
study, which was
found in Nautilus
magazine, by the
way, I'll put the
link in the
show notes.
(03:24):
It was
interesting to
see that a lot of
animals are
tested for, say,
the double X
chromosome if
they think that
they're a female
or a male. And
then once you
know that there's
two X
chromosomes, you
don't do any
further testing.
It wasn't until
Carla figured,
hey, look,
there's something
here that
suggests that
this may also be
male. And so they
did further
testing, tested
for that Y gene
and found out
that is double X
Y. That's a
(03:45):
really cool thing
to do. It doesn't
happen often. It
just goes. I
wonder how many
individuals that
we missed that
could have been
intersex, but we
didn't further
test. Right. We
just tested for
one side. We
said, oh, it's
got an X Y
chromosome or
it's got a double
X chromosome. It
must be females,
must be male,
depending on the
chromosome
configuration.
Really simple
stuff. Sometimes
it's missed in
science because, you know, why bother with that?
You just assume
(04:06):
that's going to
happen. This is
why we test as we
continue to test.
So kudos to Carla
for doing that
and really
opening the eyes
of other
scientists to be
like, hey, maybe
we do see more
intersect
individuals, but
we just don't
know. We just
don't test for
them. So maybe
that will be
something to test
for in the future
as well as the
other samples
that have been
preserved of that
population to see
if that is
something that is
normal. Now these
(04:26):
species that are
intersect tend
not to be
reproductive. So
some of the
reproductive
organs that have
been seen in the
past, like in bottlenose dolphin, they're not.
They've been seen
in porpoises.
They've been seen
in seals often
have both
reproductive
organs, but
they're not fully
developed. So
indicating that
they're not
reproductive.
However, we don't
know if they're
actually
reproductive or
not. We just
assume based on
(04:47):
the development
that we see in
front of us and
scientists see in
front of us. I've
never done this
type of study
before. That's
why I'm talking
about it because
I think it's kind
of cool. But so
that's something
that we need to
find out more
about. Right.
Because intersect
species have been
around for quite
some time. We've
seen them in
freshwater systems are actually prolific. Freshwatersystems are actually very important.
Freshwater
systems are
actually prolific
freshwater
systems studies
by the US
Geological Survey
revealed that the
male smallmouth
(05:07):
bass in
Pennsylvania is
Suska Hana. Suska
Hana. I think
it's Suska Hana.
Maybe I'm not
sure the
pronunciation of
that. I apologize
in Delaware and
Ohio River basins
exhibited
immature eggs in
their testes.
This intersex
condition is
believed to
result from
exposure to
endocrine
disrupting
chemicals. So
things that
happen in the
environment such
as pesticides and
hormones that
(05:28):
enter waterways
through agricultural runoff and water.
Through
agricultural
runoff and
wastewater
discharges. So
amphipods and
environmental
stressors have
also been
discovered. So in
the marine
environment
intersects
occurrences have
been observed in
species like the
amphipod. The
Aquino Gameras
marineis long
term monitoring
in Northwest
Brittany recorded
intersex
individuals and
frequencies
ranging between
(05:48):
0.87% to 12%.
Notably the
incidence of
intersex increase
with distance
from the sea.
Suggested
environmental
factors including
endocrine
disrupting
compounds and
freshwater
stressors may
play a role in
triggering
intersex
conditions. So
again being close
to humans not
always great for
animals. So
(06:08):
having those
endocrine
disruptors
present can
really change
somebody and
change an animal.
We're not just
being facetious with that.
That's just not
me saying that.
That's true. This
is what the
evidence kind of
shows. So we know
that there are
animals that are
out there in the
marine
environment that
will change sexes
depending on the
environment. So
some fish like
clownfish will
change their sex
if there's no
(06:29):
other females
around. So a male
will turn to a
female so that it
can reproduce and
it can
have babies.
The survival of
the fittest is
the genetic
material that
continues to
persist in
clownfish that
allows them to
survive for so
long. So if it's
just males that
are around and
there are no
females one male
will turn into a
female and then
that female will
reproduce with
all the males and
then you know
(06:49):
they'll have
their babies
their larva and
it'll grow into
some lots more clownfish.
It's really
interesting to
hear these
different types
of evolutionary
factors that help
animals survive
in the
environment
whether it's a
freshwater or
marine
environment. So
that's always
something that is
interesting. Now
there are
different ways to
detect intersex.
So it could be
(07:09):
from genetic
material which
doesn't always
happen or it
could just be
from mixed
animal tissue
such as ovarian
and testicular
tissue within the
actual bodies.
The individuals
have either
underdeveloped or
nonfunctional
reproductive
organs which
suggest they are
unlikely to
produce. The EAU
10B which is the
intersex southern
right whale that
really capped off
this story
discovered in
1999. They had
(07:30):
the XXY
chromosomal set
up but there's no
indication that
it reproduced and
this chromosomal
combination is
typically
associated with
infertility and
other mammals
including humans.
So this is not
just something
that happens in
southern right whales or in southern right whales.
It can actually
happen in
intersects in fin
whales was
reported with
both seses and
uterus but no
functional
reproductive
output was
(07:51):
recorded in
harbor purposes
as I mentioned
earlier some
intersex
individuals had
both male and
female tissue but
again no evidence
supporting that
reproduction
was found.
So it's a hard
thing to find out
because we don't
really see when
males and females
reproduce on the
regular. We do
have that video
that I talked
about a couple
months ago where
you know somebody
caught it on
photographs a
(08:11):
series of
photographs of
two humpback
whales
reproducing
mating off the
coast of Maui and
so that was kind
of cool to see.
But we don't
often get that
and a lot of
times the
intersex
conditions are
only discovered
after death
during the crop
seas. So
scientists rarely
have a chance to
study the
behavior or
reproduction over
time. So it's
really difficult to see. But I just think that's a good thing.
I just thought it
was a cool thing
to bring to you
as a way to
(08:32):
understand
species
understand what
is happening in
the oceans how we
are affecting the
oceans and how
we're affecting
the species that
live in it
through
disrupting
endocrine systems
that can change
the hormonal
balance within
animals but also
the way they
naturally evolve
into being able
in some species
being able to
change from male
to female and
there's also the
case of
pharmaceuticals
(08:52):
which again
probably
endocrine
disruptors that
get into our
river systems
just from what we've been ingesting.
Right. This is
like typical
stuff that we
ingest whether it
be you know pain
pills whether it
be reproductive
blocking pills or
anything like
that that can go
through our
system and that
will actually end
up in the river
systems like
through a
plumbing in the
river systems
that can affect
fish that's why
we see a lot of
(09:13):
freshwater fish
being affected by
this either
intersex or other
type of I say
just differences
in morphologies.
So it's a cool
study to look at.
It's really great
to identify and
talk about it.
We're only just
scratching the
surface with this
type of stuff as
we normally are
when we're
discovering
something new.
But I thought it
was really great
to bring it to
you. I'd love to
hear your
thoughts on this.
Leave a comment
below if you're
(09:33):
watching this on
YouTube.
And if you are
listening to this
on another
platform, please
hit me up on
Instagram at how
to protect the
ocean. That's at
how to protect
the ocean. I want
to thank you so
much for joining
me on today's
episode of the
how to protect
the ocean
podcast. Have a
great day. We'll
talk to you in a
happy
conservation.
We're going to be
(00:00):
talking about an
interesting
discovery on
today's episode
of the how to
protect the ocean
podcast. We're
gonna be talking
about intersex
marine mammals.
That's right.
We're gonna be
talking about
marine mammals
that have the X
XY chromosome
because there was
a new discovery
that came out in
a paper where
marine biologists
did a genetic
test and found
that a southern
right whale that
(00:20):
was sampled back
in 1989 has X
XY chromosomes.
This is very rare
in marine
mammals. It's
something that we
have to talk
about and we're
going to talk
about today. So
let's start the
show. Hey
everybody,
welcome back to
another exciting
episode of the
how to protect
the ocean
podcast. I'm your
host,
Andrew Lewin.
And this is a
podcast where you
find out what's
happening with
the ocean, how
you can speak
up for the ocean,
(00:41):
what you need to
do to live for a
better ocean by
taking
action on today's
episode, we're
going to be
talking about all
things marine
mammals and
genetic testing
and what in the
world is an
intersex
organism. This is
going to be a lot
of fun. I
know there's
a lot of
political debates
around this and
political talk
around what is
intersex? What's
transgender? What
is all this stuff
(01:01):
around, you know,
different types
of genders
and stuff.
This is not the
case. It's not
one of those
topics. We are
going to be
talking about
intersex.
This is not the
same as
transgender. This
is not the same
as anything that
we're
just talking
about genetic
material that has
XXY chromosomes.
Normally, XX
chromosomes, a
female XY
chromosome
is a male. So
we're talking
(01:21):
about animals
that have the
genetic material
of XXY as
well as some
have noticeably
seen having
different both
reproductive
organs present at
the time of death
when they're
actually in the
crops because
that's when we
actually see what
is
happening. So we're
going to talk
about that today.
Like I said, this
is not a
political thing.
This is
just what we
(01:42):
discovered in
science. I want
to get that right
up there because
I know people in
the comments are
going to be like,
you're just
pushing an agenda
that says nothing
to do with any
political agenda.
This is science.
This is what's
been discovered
and what I think
is something
that's pretty
cool to help us
understand these
animals.
We're going to
just talk about,
you know, how
this all came to
be. So 1989,
researchers
collected
skin samples
from southern
(02:02):
right whales off
the Argentina's
Valdez Peninsula
to study the
species genetic
diversity.
So they're just
looking at
genetic
diversity.
Decades later in
2022, Carla
Crossman, a
graduate student
from St.
Mary's University
in Halifax, Nova
Scotia, go
Canada, analyzed
these samples and
encountered an
anomaly
with one whale
labeled EAU10B.
(02:22):
This initial
chromosome
analysis
suggested that
EAU10B was female
possessing two X
chromosomes,
which is typical
of females.
However, further
testing revealed
the presence of
the SRY gene
typically found
in Y chromosome
and associated
with male
development.
So doing even
more further
testing and
figuring out that
there is a Y
chromosome, they
(02:43):
just found out
this individual
has a chromosome
configuration
of XXY
identifying it as
the first
documented
intersex southern
right whale. This
is pretty cool.
And it's very
rare to find
these types of
intersex
individuals in
marine mammals
because we don't
really get to see
and get a lot of
genetic testing
in marine
mammals.
Although further
research has
discovered that
we can take more
tissue samples
(03:03):
and stuff, but
it's very
difficult to work
with marine
mammals for
obvious reasons.
They're not a lot
in captivity. A
lot of them are
in the wild. It's
very difficult to
get samples in
general.
We're just
discovering
patterns of the
species and
really getting to
know those
species. So more
genetic testing,
I'm sure, will
reveal this if
it's tested. The
one thing in this
study, which was
found in Nautilus
magazine, by the
way, I'll put the
link in the
show notes.
(03:24):
It was
interesting to
see that a lot of
animals are
tested for, say,
the double X
chromosome if
they think that
they're a female
or a male. And
then once you
know that there's
two X
chromosomes, you
don't do any
further testing.
It wasn't until
Carla figured,
hey, look,
there's something
here that
suggests that
this may also be
male. And so they
did further
testing, tested
for that Y gene
and found out
that is double X
Y. That's a
(03:45):
really cool thing
to do. It doesn't
happen often. It
just goes. I
wonder how many
individuals that
we missed that
could have been
intersex, but we
didn't further
test. Right. We
just tested for
one side. We
said, oh, it's
got an X Y
chromosome or
it's got a double
X chromosome. It
must be females,
must be male,
depending on the
chromosome
configuration.
Really simple
stuff. Sometimes
it's missed in
science because, you know, why bother with that?
You just assume
(04:06):
that's going to
happen. This is
why we test as we
continue to test.
So kudos to Carla
for doing that
and really
opening the eyes
of other
scientists to be
like, hey, maybe
we do see more
intersect
individuals, but
we just don't
know. We just
don't test for
them. So maybe
that will be
something to test
for in the future
as well as the
other samples
that have been
preserved of that
population to see
if that is
something that is
normal. Now these
(04:26):
species that are
intersect tend
not to be
reproductive. So
some of the
reproductive
organs that have
been seen in the
past, like in bottlenose dolphin, they're not.
They've been seen
in porpoises.
They've been seen
in seals often
have both
reproductive
organs, but
they're not fully
developed. So
indicating that
they're not
reproductive.
However, we don't
know if they're
actually
reproductive or
not. We just
assume based on
(04:47):
the development
that we see in
front of us and
scientists see in
front of us. I've
never done this
type of study
before. That's
why I'm talking
about it because
I think it's kind
of cool. But so
that's something
that we need to
find out more
about. Right.
Because intersect
species have been
around for quite
some time. We've
seen them in
freshwater systems are actually prolific. Freshwatersystems are actually very important.
Freshwater
systems are
actually prolific
freshwater
systems studies
by the US
Geological Survey
revealed that the
male smallmouth
(05:07):
bass in
Pennsylvania is
Suska Hana. Suska
Hana. I think
it's Suska Hana.
Maybe I'm not
sure the
pronunciation of
that. I apologize
in Delaware and
Ohio River basins
exhibited
immature eggs in
their testes.
This intersex
condition is
believed to
result from
exposure to
endocrine
disrupting
chemicals. So
things that
happen in the
environment such
as pesticides and
hormones that
(05:28):
enter waterways
through agricultural runoff and water.
Through
agricultural
runoff and
wastewater
discharges. So
amphipods and
environmental
stressors have
also been
discovered. So in
the marine
environment
intersects
occurrences have
been observed in
species like the
amphipod. The
Aquino Gameras
marineis long
term monitoring
in Northwest
Brittany recorded
intersex
individuals and
frequencies
ranging between
(05:48):
0.87% to 12%.
Notably the
incidence of
intersex increase
with distance
from the sea.
Suggested
environmental
factors including
endocrine
disrupting
compounds and
freshwater
stressors may
play a role in
triggering
intersex
conditions. So
again being close
to humans not
always great for
animals. So
(06:08):
having those
endocrine
disruptors
present can
really change
somebody and
change an animal.
We're not just
being facetious with that.
That's just not
me saying that.
That's true. This
is what the
evidence kind of
shows. So we know
that there are
animals that are
out there in the
marine
environment that
will change sexes
depending on the
environment. So
some fish like
clownfish will
change their sex
if there's no
(06:29):
other females
around. So a male
will turn to a
female so that it
can reproduce and
it can
have babies.
The survival of
the fittest is
the genetic
material that
continues to
persist in
clownfish that
allows them to
survive for so
long. So if it's
just males that
are around and
there are no
females one male
will turn into a
female and then
that female will
reproduce with
all the males and
then you know
(06:49):
they'll have
their babies
their larva and
it'll grow into
some lots more clownfish.
It's really
interesting to
hear these
different types
of evolutionary
factors that help
animals survive
in the
environment
whether it's a
freshwater or
marine
environment. So
that's always
something that is
interesting. Now
there are
different ways to
detect intersex.
So it could be
(07:09):
from genetic
material which
doesn't always
happen or it
could just be
from mixed
animal tissue
such as ovarian
and testicular
tissue within the
actual bodies.
The individuals
have either
underdeveloped or
nonfunctional
reproductive
organs which
suggest they are
unlikely to
produce. The EAU
10B which is the
intersex southern
right whale that
really capped off
this story
discovered in
1999. They had
(07:30):
the XXY
chromosomal set
up but there's no
indication that
it reproduced and
this chromosomal
combination is
typically
associated with
infertility and
other mammals
including humans.
So this is not
just something
that happens in
southern right whales or in southern right whales.
It can actually
happen in
intersects in fin
whales was
reported with
both seses and
uterus but no
functional
reproductive
output was
(07:51):
recorded in
harbor purposes
as I mentioned
earlier some
intersex
individuals had
both male and
female tissue but
again no evidence
supporting that
reproduction
was found.
So it's a hard
thing to find out
because we don't
really see when
males and females
reproduce on the
regular. We do
have that video
that I talked
about a couple
months ago where
you know somebody
caught it on
photographs a
(08:11):
series of
photographs of
two humpback
whales
reproducing
mating off the
coast of Maui and
so that was kind
of cool to see.
But we don't
often get that
and a lot of
times the
intersex
conditions are
only discovered
after death
during the crop
seas. So
scientists rarely
have a chance to
study the
behavior or
reproduction over
time. So it's
really difficult to see. But I just think that's a good thing.
I just thought it
was a cool thing
to bring to you
as a way to
(08:32):
understand
species
understand what
is happening in
the oceans how we
are affecting the
oceans and how
we're affecting
the species that
live in it
through
disrupting
endocrine systems
that can change
the hormonal
balance within
animals but also
the way they
naturally evolve
into being able
in some species
being able to
change from male
to female and
there's also the
case of
pharmaceuticals
(08:52):
which again
probably
endocrine
disruptors that
get into our
river systems
just from what we've been ingesting.
Right. This is
like typical
stuff that we
ingest whether it
be you know pain
pills whether it
be reproductive
blocking pills or
anything like
that that can go
through our
system and that
will actually end
up in the river
systems like
through a
plumbing in the
river systems
that can affect
fish that's why
we see a lot of
(09:13):
freshwater fish
being affected by
this either
intersex or other
type of I say
just differences
in morphologies.
So it's a cool
study to look at.
It's really great
to identify and
talk about it.
We're only just
scratching the
surface with this
type of stuff as
we normally are
when we're
discovering
something new.
But I thought it
was really great
to bring it to
you. I'd love to
hear your
thoughts on this.
Leave a comment
below if you're
(09:33):
watching this on
YouTube.
And if you are
listening to this
on another
platform, please
hit me up on
Instagram at how
to protect the
ocean. That's at
how to protect
the ocean. I want
to thank you so
much for joining
me on today's
episode of the
how to protect
the ocean
podcast. Have a
great day. We'll
talk to you in a
happy
conservation.
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