Seafood Laws and Ocean Justice: How Legal Frameworks Shape the Future of Fisheries

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(01:00:00):
Overfishing is a
complex problem to solve.
It's not something that
we can solve overnight.
Obviously, if we would have been able to,
we would have done it by now.
But there are a lot of
layers within fisheries.
There's the science portion,
there's the advocacy portion,
the activism portion, there's
the fishing community portion,
there's the
recreational versus commercial,
and even within the commercial,
there's the artisanal
versus industrialized.

(01:00:21):
There are a lot of
different layers within
fisheries that make it
really complex to solve.
On top of that, there
are laws that govern
the way we manage
everything in the ocean.
Not necessarily the high seas,
but there are that is coming,
but there are laws within everybody's
exclusive economic zone
that could differ
depending on the country or state,
that could differ depending

(01:00:42):
on where they are in the world.
And it could differ in the approach that
they have to marine fisheries.
And that's a lot to take in.
And so it can be confusing to find out
where these laws are going
and how to work through these laws and
how to make them better.
And so I invited Ava
Von Huchlum to the podcast
to be able to discuss this.
She is a legal professional passionate

(01:01:03):
about making the seafood
sector more responsible.
She started an advisory firm called
Natural Justice to support the sector
with more diligent consideration of
national and international law and policy
and impacting seafood sustainably.
We're going to talk to Ava about law and
fisheries on this episode of the How to
Protect the Ocean podcast.
Let's start the show.

(01:01:26):
Hey everybody, welcome back to another
exciting episode of the How
to Protect the Ocean podcast.
I'm your host Andrew Lewin and this is
the podcast where you find out what's
happening with the ocean, how you could
speak up for the ocean, what you can do
to live for a better
ocean by taking action.
Not today's episode.
We're going to be talking about the law
and fisheries law of the
sea and law of the fish.
We're going to be talking to Ava van
Hooklem who is someone who decided when

(01:01:47):
she went to law school to choose
governing fish instead of going to
corporate law or going to
criminal law as many others do.
She decided to forego maybe the big bucks
and to live a life of impact by looking
after fisheries around the world and
working with different governments,
working with different organizations,
working with different private ventures
and companies to be able to discuss and

(01:02:11):
be able to manage policy and law of
fisheries internationally.
And I think that is something that we
don't really get to
discuss on this podcast.
So it's really fun to be able to have
someone with Ava's background and
experience to come on the podcast and
kind of take us through the law of the
sea and the law of the fish to be able to
like, what is law for
fisheries and how is it managed?

(01:02:32):
How can we make it better?
What are the trends that we see?
We go through all that in
this interview with Ava.
So here is the interview with Ava Van
Hoeklem from Natural Justice.
Enjoy and I'll talk to you after.
Hey Ava, welcome to the How
to Protect the Ocean podcast.
Are you ready to talk
about fisheries and the law?
Always appreciate the invite.
Love it.
I love it.
I'm super excited because it's not all

(01:02:53):
every day that we get a professional law
person here, you know, a law
professional, especially around
sustainability and the sea and around
seafood, around fisheries.
I'm very excited to dive deep into, you
know, what the laws are around and what's
happened in the past, what was good, what
was bad and kind of get into the trends
of what's happening now and

(01:03:13):
what's needed in the future.
I think there's a lot of things that we
can discuss today that we're going to
discuss today that people don't realize
what happens in fisheries
that kind of gets hidden.
It's not over like the talk, the talk of
the town around fisheries.
A lot of times when we talk about people
just learning more about fisheries, we
always hear about fishing communities,
you know, fishermen, fishermen, women who

(01:03:34):
are out there, you know, some people say,
oh, everything's over fish.
Some people, some
fisheries are sustainable.
There are groups out there that try and
keep us sustainable
and transparency is key.
So we're going to get
into all of that stuff.
But before we do, Eva, I want you to just
let us know who you are and what you do.
Yeah, thanks. And you're right.
It is sometimes rather

(01:03:55):
niche field to work in.
I must say my fellow law students were
definitely surprised when I said I was
specializing in fish.
Yeah, since most of them went into
corporate law,
contract law, all that stuff.
But yeah, so my name is Eva van Hoeklum
originally from the Netherlands and I own
Natural Justice, which is a small
consultancy and I work with clients

(01:04:17):
globally and I specialize in really the
intersection of law and fisheries.
So I started about eight
years ago with with the specialty.
And when I started, you know, you go to
the usual suspects in terms of what law
is relevant for fisheries.
I really started with the sea fisheries
law, trade law, environmental law.

(01:04:39):
But now increasingly, I'm also looking
more at some overlooked areas of law that
I believe are really impacting our
efforts to make fisheries more
responsible, more equitable and linking
this to the obligations that states have
under international law of the sea and
environmental law, etc.
So, yeah, I'd be very happy

(01:05:01):
to expand on that a little bit.
And yeah, I'm really with that type of
work, hoping to bring more focus on the
role of states and fisheries management
and the role of law in that as well as
some more nuance sometimes where I feel
like a lot of discussions around states
is very much, they're unwilling.
They don't want to collaborate with this.

(01:05:22):
They're not doing enough there.
And I really just don't
think it's that black and white.
It's a very gray area.
And there's a lot to explore there.
So yeah, I do a lot of research in that
intersection really of the fisheries
sector practically and
then the laws that impact it.
I love it.
I love it.
I think that's that's wonderful.
I can't wait to get into all of this.

(01:05:42):
What you know, you talked a little bit at
the beginning, like your classmates in
law school were a little surprised when
you decided to pick fish as something to
focus on as your niche to focus on.
Like we know lawyers get paid a lot of
money when they go into corporate, they
go into criminal law or whatever.
And you see a lot.
You see shows like suits and things like
that all over the world.

(01:06:03):
You see these types of shows that come up
because people are interested in the way
lawyers speak and the way they do
business and it's always like high-end
stuff and they charge a lot for their
hourly rate and all this kind of stuff.
You decided to fish.
You decided to choose in a sort of
environmental law, but even more niche
down from environmental law.
What made you decide to
follow that route in law school?

(01:06:27):
Knowing that, you know, environmental
law, maybe you don't get paid as much as
corporate law, you know, now we don't
think into finances, but it's definitely
a very different way of doing things.
So just love to know your rationale
behind following that path.
I love it, but love
to know your rationale.
Yeah, certainly.
And there's I think two stories I can
tell you to illustrate that a little bit.

(01:06:48):
So there's one that I tell a bit more
often, but a little bit of background is
I wanted to study law.
I was about 12 years old when I decided I
wanted to go to law school because I feel
the law is really just the most tangible
thing we have to protect
people to protect the planet.
And, you know, you get confronted at a
young age, you realize the

(01:07:08):
world is not a fair place.
It's, you know, people
need to be protected.
And I've always seen the
law as a way to make impact.
So that's always been a very
important motivator for me.
And then I was initially really focused
on working in areas that just came out of
conflict or with refugees.
And so that's that's one story is that I

(01:07:29):
actually went ahead and did this work.
So I was living in Beirut and working in
a very challenging
area of the city there.
And I was, you know, trying to do my part
and supporting people that just came out
of conflict and, you know, doing my work
with humanitarian law, refugee law.

(01:07:51):
And I realized I'm just not cut out for
it. It's too damn hard.
Like it's really I was like, I'm going to
either get used to this, which is not a
good option or but I cried
myself to sleep every night.
So one thing is kind of losing
my career path that I was on.
And then another thing is
I took a big sailing trip.
So I had this crazy plan to make it from

(01:08:12):
Amsterdam to Australia
without catching a flight.
And at some point, you
have to jump on a boat. Right.
So I did this in Malaysia.
I found an Australian guy.
He needed to bring back a sailing boat.
And so I ended up sailing through
Indonesia with him for two months.
And we had like a lure out in the back.

(01:08:33):
And all it was catching was plastic. And
so that tells me, OK, there's there's an
issue with plastic here.
But more than that, it's where's all the
fish. And we tried to
buy a fish of fishermen.
We saw fishermen that were just out there
in boats for days, not
enough food, not enough water.
And it was very confrontational. It
really made me realize that
our oceans are not doing well.

(01:08:55):
And this is not just bad news for the
oceans themselves, but you
could see it's impacting people.
And these people often didn't really have
an alternative. What do you do if you
live in a tiny island? Right. Right.
There's no fish to catch. How are you
going to feed your children? How are you
going to create any livelihood?
So that was, I think, really for me, the
main push where whenever when I went back

(01:09:18):
to law school to do my master's before I
knew it, every essay I was writing was
about fishery sector,
whether it was the environmental law
subjects where it made sense. But I did
the same for trade law. I did the same
for investment law, did
the same for European law.
I could always find an angle. And yeah,
it just there was no way back, really, at
that point, I think.

(01:09:40):
And every time you did those assignments,
every time you focused on a paper on
fisheries, whether it be through trade,
whether it be through
access or whatever that might be,
what was your feeling every time you
finish one? Because I know sometimes, you
know, as a student, you you you follow a
certain path and say you do a paper on
something and it may not be the best

(01:10:01):
interest, you know, and so you may not be
like when you hand in, you're like, OK,
I'm done with that kind of subject.
But obviously, this is something that was
continued your passion for it. So every
time you hand in one of those papers,
what was your feeling on that?
Like, were there more questions that came
from what you found? And I could research
this more. Or was it just like, OK, maybe
this is not like trade
is not where I want to go.

(01:10:21):
Maybe it's somewhere else. Like, what was
that that avenue? What was that feeling?
Yeah, so I made deliberately made a
combination between, you know, like
growing up in in Europe, like it's almost
impossible to go into a supermarket and
not violate a human
right one way or another.
Like, it's it's really sad. We all know
that the food industry is are just not in

(01:10:44):
a great shape. Right. And I
knew this about chocolate.
I knew this about coffee. And then I was
learning more about that in the context
of fisheries. And so I deliberately made
that combination of the economic side.
So trade and investment on one hand and
then the human rights law environment, a
lot really more the aspirational, like
where you'd like the
sector to be on the other hand.

(01:11:04):
And so, yeah, I really wrote about where
those different areas came together. And
for instance, what I learned there, I
think it's the topics that focused on
there weren't necessarily exactly the
topics I'm focusing on now because I just

(01:11:25):
I know a lot more now about what impacts
the sector and what doesn't.
And I did back then. And I really just
had to invent it myself. Obviously, none
of my law professors know much about fish
and and I don't blame them.
And the but I did catch on pretty early
on that it is as unfair as a lot of the

(01:11:49):
other food sectors. And for instance,
particularly that whatever the EU is
doing on paper looks great.
Yeah, then if you put in more in the
context of certain impacts, then yeah,
you really start to question about, I
guess, the hypocrisy of a lot of these

(01:12:12):
systems and how the
states work together on this.
And yeah, like an example, I have an
essay I wrote that I later published was
on the Western Sahara because I was
watching a documentary. So that's an area
occupied by Morocco. And in international
law, people have a right to

(01:12:34):
what we call self determination.
And under that right, you have the right
to benefit from your own natural
resources. But so a lot of the fish
that's caught in front of the coast of
the Western Sahara, it is not benefiting
the people from the Western Sahara was
actually benefiting either the EU or

(01:12:57):
Morocco itself because they
were the ones fishing there.
And so I think that's was a very
interesting example of where you have two
formal states and occupation, a natural
resource. And the EU has all these trade
and all these fisheries agreements with
Morocco, where it's like, well, you on

(01:13:19):
the one hand, you're promoting the right
to self determination.
But on the other hand, you have these
economic treaties that are making it
extremely difficult to really implement
that right to self determination in
practice. So I thought that was a very
interesting example of, I guess, just
politics being politics.
And but if you really look at it,

(01:13:43):
legally, it's not legal. It's not in line
with what's been agreed upon
internationally. So it did really seem
like a sector where a lot of those
international challenges exist and where
there is just a lot of unfairness and
where there is a lot of work to be done
to fight for people that are in more
vulnerable positions to benefit from

(01:14:06):
these marine resources
as is their right to.
Yeah, no, absolutely. It's it's there are
a lot of laws out there and and and a lot
of them are there to protect people. A
lot of them are there to allow people to
fish sustainably. And there are a lot of
there, a lot of laws that are out there
that are supposed to prevent from

(01:14:26):
overfishing, from
exploitation, over exploitation.
A lot of the laws to protect human
rights. There are a lot of laws that
aren't followed and the high seas. And
before we get into that, you know, you
talked about the EU and setting
presidents because you have some pretty
good policies when it when it comes to
setting them as well. Yes. Yeah.

(01:14:47):
And but not great on one end and not too
great on the other hand, I guess you ask.
Yeah, that's true. That's so true. But is
there a difference between the are the
laws for land and I guess more
agriculture, you know, farming and so
forth as strict as the laws at sea as

(01:15:08):
like are there like you said there's some
similarities in certain in certain ways
in terms of their they set the policies.
But are there
differences in land and sea?
When you when you look at the strictness
of it in terms of of ensuring
sustainability, ensuring proper ethics
when it comes to fisheries and so forth?

(01:15:30):
Short answer would be yes, I definitely
think the laws on land are much more
strict. But and I think that also comes
from, you know, I think we have a lot of laws that are not
you know, I think with a lot of fisheries
you it requires collaboration between the

(01:15:50):
states and that happens in the RFM most
for instance, yes, where whatever you do
on your own land you do on your own land.
So that sense, I would say agriculture
and agriculture is very comparable.
If you look at the laws and sometimes
it's even tackled in one single
regulation, where they'll just be like
minor differences that they put in an
annex or something. But there's a lot of

(01:16:11):
similarity there. But when you are
talking about fisheries, you're really
talking more about natural resource law,
it's more comparable to hunting, they
always say with fisheries, right?
Gotcha. So it's really, you know, where
aquaculture looks a lot at the inputs and
the impact on groundwater and all those

(01:16:32):
things. I think with fisheries, it is
really much more on how and how much you
are allowed to take. But the fact that it
is something that just requires
international collaboration, I think that
makes it a lot more challenging.
And then it's not just a law, there's

(01:16:56):
also the matter of enforcement and it
happens out at sea with fisheries, you
know, still you can put 50 legal scholars
in one room, but there will still not be
one conclusive answer on which
jurisdictions should be

(01:17:17):
involved with enforcing.
Enforcing a certain illicit activity at
sea, for instance, so much always claims
of, you know, multiple claims of
jurisdiction, and there's not necessarily
always in hierarchy in that. And there
are always certain flag states, sometimes
port states that refuse to do their part.

(01:17:39):
So that really makes it challenging and
practice. So it's not so much about the
law, per se. It is really also about why
fisheries is just such a different
resource than other food systems and the
international collaboration that it
requires to properly enforce it.

(01:18:01):
And also the fact it's much more
expensive to send a drone or vessel than
an inspector that goes to a farm. So
there's also the issue of capacity,
where, as I said in the beginning, I
don't believe it's always an
unwillingness. I think it can really be
just a lack of capacity.
But it's also politics, you know, if you
are, let's say you're a coastal state and

(01:18:24):
there's a vessel in your economic
exclusive zone, you know, where you
really are the primary state to enforce
the proper management
of your resources there.
And that state, the flag state is a
country that happens to also be giving
you a lot of development aid. What are

(01:18:47):
you going to do? I mean, your law might
say one thing, but you know, the Ministry
of Fisheries doesn't operate in silo.
It's, it's, it's gonna be really
challenging because they still operate in
reality. So the law is, I think can be a
great tool, but sometimes
the law only goes so far.
It's you're right. That's, that's very,

(01:19:09):
very true. And what I want to do now is I
want to start just at the basics in terms
of the way the laws have been in the past
and in our in our currently and how
they've changed it to our current system,
like start with the basics and we'll
start to grow on that and be able to do that.
So I want to go through some of those, but I'm going to let you guys look at the
first thing I want to do and then I'll start to start to talk about the first things that I want to do.
And I want to start to think about the first thing I want to do, just to clarify
too, because a lot of the people that
listen to this podcast are from the US
you mentioned you've mentioned a couple

(01:19:31):
times when you when you talk about
individual sort of management units, but
also, I think individual countries, you
mentioned the state's.
Who knows? You never know. But what do
you mean by states when you say states?

(01:19:51):
I think that's a lot as a very big law
term in terms when it
comes to a lot of policies.
Yeah as I've
At some point during my work in the
fisheries sector because I wasn't always
so particularly focused on
fisheries law
It I did started calling them countries,
right? But nowadays I always talk about

(01:20:12):
states and jurisdictions
which are basically the same often but
the thing with a state and
We even capitalize this as lawyers like
that's that's how much we love that word
and we basically just mean a country and
You would only say that for a UN member
countries with a recognized country and

(01:20:34):
jurisdiction in that sense
is sometimes a little bit more
General where you can also
say that about countries that do
or about
jurisdictions that do
govern their fisheries management, but
that aren't necessarily
a recognized UN states
Gotcha. Okay, I basically mean a country
and a country is the primary

(01:20:56):
responsibility for
that fisheries management
So they're the ones
that have
The complete legal system that is
supposed to manage that
Okay, and and a lot of times from my
understanding you can correct me if i'm
wrong a lot of the countries
Well, every country has a border on the
ocean that has a coast on the ocean has
an exclusive economic zone

(01:21:17):
Pretty much 200 nautical miles off of
their shore when you talk about
jurisdiction from a
national point of view
You know you you talk about that 200
nautical mile within that 200 nautical
mile within the country
boundaries that have been set
You know by the UN
internationally agreed upon
The countries or the states I should
mention have jurisdiction over those

(01:21:39):
waters and how they are
managed they pretty much can do
Whatever not whatever they want, but
pretty much it's it's up to them
It's up to their people to say whatever
they want. So as an example, um, you know
A very popular case is when the japanese
were you know going into the southern
ocean hunting whales
We know the fiasco that that encountered

(01:21:59):
from that with you know, sea shepherds
Like you can't do this in international
waters and you know the whole thing with
the international whaling commission
You know, it goes back and forth for
decades and then finally
the japanese say, you know
What enough of this hassle we're going
back into our own waters and we're just
going to hunt, you know
Marine mammals within
our own our own waters
Not much internationally people can do in

(01:22:21):
that respect other than maybe boycott
some of their products if
they really want to do so
But there's really not much they can do
from a legal standpoint because they're
within their own rights
within the 200 nautical miles
That so that kind of goes in terms of
like what countries can do
Uh within the law and this is my
understanding of the law
I don't know what the specifics of marine
mammal law within the

(01:22:41):
japanese 200 nautical miles
But this is some of the
stories that I've that i've seen
but so
A lot of those laws now when it comes to
like north america, you
know, you have you have canada
You have the u.s. You have mexico
They have their their
treaties and they have their you know
North american free trade agreement and
stuff and sometimes fisheries comes into
that and they work fairly well together

(01:23:04):
As of until recently, uh fairly well
together, you know across the borders
Um when it comes to the eu the eu is
managed as you know, the
member states of the eu
Um, how does that work for?
Countries that have coastal borders onto
the like say the atlantic
ocean or even the metaterrannian
um, do they have the same 200 nautical

(01:23:25):
miles off the coast and do they manage
like this portugal just
manage portuguese waters?
Uh france, you know french waters germany
like, you know those types of states
Do they just manage their own waters 200
nautical miles off or are there other?
Agreements where those
are managed as the eu

(01:23:47):
So it's an interesting
question first I wanted to
mention it is
It's not like in your own eec
you can do whatever you want
Because in the case of wailing for
instance, there is such a thing as the uh
as a treaty on wailing
I forget the formal
name, but that's from like

(01:24:08):
1946 it's actually the first
international law of the sea treaty that
we had uh, so there are
certain
Areas in which you can't just do whatever
you want because hey, it's it's my eec.
So it's my jurisdiction
But of course, it's so much harder
to

(01:24:28):
enforce because there's not
any other countries that are
That have any jurisdiction. So in
international law there is this principle
Uh, which I don't know if it's ever
really been I guess it's been relied on
for things like a un piece
Mission, uh, you know with like the blue

(01:24:49):
helmets where it's like none of the
states necessarily had
Uh any jurisdiction, but it was seen as
such an issue of international importance
That's you know under but then we're
talking much more about
diplomacy than yes law per se
um, but just a minor
correction there with the
when it comes to the

(01:25:09):
determination of your
economic exclusive zone we are um
indeed talking about 200 nautical miles
from uh from the coast but the
uh and in some cases if you're lucky that
just means there's you
know, like in a lot of
Islands for instance, that just means

(01:25:30):
there's there's a beautiful circle around
your country and you can use that
but in
Many instances it will
clash with someone else's easy
So then the general rule would be that
it's somewhere in the middle
but it can deviate
that's really up to the
Two countries to decide and generally
there won't be any issues there unless

(01:25:52):
maybe there's any oil
or any resources found
Like exactly between those two then
that's when the trouble just look
contagious. Yeah, exactly
um, but there's even
been good examples of
That where our countries have come to
good agreements and really using the
natural resources to
benefit both countries
so, uh the European Union specifically it

(01:26:15):
will then basically depend on
uh the country and where they're located
Uh how big their easy is so the
Netherlands for instance, uh will clash
with the the UK at some point
um, so they that's a really important
collaborative partner for
the Netherlands to have in um

(01:26:35):
uh some I uh some countries in Europe
still have islands so you have the
because you know, it's Europe so all
At least in western Europe all former
colonial powers and some of these islands
were never really transferred back
So they're still part
of the European Union
area, so an example would be

(01:26:56):
well you have the Azores in
Portugal which is
You'd have then the EEC of Portugal then
a bit of nothing and then again the EEC
of Portugal around the Azores islands
But you also have French Guiana in Latin
America, which is officially an overseas
European territory, even though it's in
Latin America. There's also

(01:27:17):
some islands in the Caribbean
and the in Europe
there's certain areas where
European countries have
Given their power to the European Union
meaning that it's not the individual
countries that dictate the rules there
It's at the European Union level and
fisheries for instance, uh, as well as

(01:27:39):
trade is an example of that
So in Europe, you have something called
the common fisheries policy
and that is the same for any of the EU
member states and it will also apply to
uh French Guiana for instance, and I've
had I have heard challenges

(01:28:00):
sometimes with managing that because you
know their border countries
are not part of the EU and
um
But whenever there needs to be any sort
of international collaboration, they
would need to call in France
to
Because officially that's part of it, but
France is like so far from this country.
It's not really at the top
uh top of their priorities. So it's

(01:28:21):
really quite a
complicated system, uh with the
EU sometimes bringing in all the
different EECs that are technically
managed under the common fisheries policy
Yeah, I can imagine I can imagine
Okay. So now we got that settled and well
settled I quote unquote settled
Um, let's talk about sort of the the laws

(01:28:41):
right now overall like
you know worldwide obviously
They're very different in different parts
of the world. Um, but let's
talk about the like up to now
Um, you know it used to be where you
could just fish wherever you want
whenever you want way back, you know a
couple hundred years ago
You could do that, you know, there
weren't as many fishing fleets weren't as
efficient in catching
You know, there's there's talk about
times where you used to just throw a

(01:29:02):
bucket in the north atlantic
And you'd be able to catch cod didn't
fill it up within minutes if not seconds
That's obviously changed from now on um,
and and from the 90s on especially with
the north atlantic and the cod
Where are we right now with with
fisheries laws? Like if you look at
fisheries laws from your perspective

(01:29:23):
Overall worldwide, would you say they are
adequate? They are good or they just in
some cases they just suck
It's a very challenging question. It's a
very interesting question. Um, but
I and it is something i'm researching but
considering that you know for a lot of
these fisheries laws or
Policies i will be looking at it from an

(01:29:44):
outsider perspective. So
I do need to be aware of
I guess my eurocentric views. Um before
passing any judgment
I know that it can be very hard to
predict sometimes and I think there's a
lot of assumptions sometimes around
the global south doing a worse job at

(01:30:05):
this and I definitely have
not found that to be true
right, I think um
I don't necessarily focus
so much on
Evaluating whether a
fisheries law is adequate. Yes or no
simply because I

(01:30:25):
I it's just really like I said, I think
to really fully understand the law
it's also just the
uh legal context and kind of the culture
like for instance if you look at
fisheries transparency
There will be in some
countries. It's absolutely
Not a problem to be super transparent
about whatever is going on in

(01:30:46):
Your you know the allocation of fisheries
authorizations catch data all these
different fisheries data elements
There's absolutely no problem because
these are countries
that generally have a very
long-standing legal tradition of
transparency where they view natural
resources as a common good and the people
have a right to know that which great

(01:31:08):
um, but there's a lot of countries that
don't necessarily have this tradition and
kind of forcing that
same approach on them
Is just not going to work and it's going
to make people maybe very uncomfortable
and yeah, um, so I think
I wouldn't be able to
speak intelligently to
You know, what's what are the good
fisheries policies and you know, the

(01:31:28):
world is is a big place
it's also not my intent necessarily to
pass judgment on
individual fisheries policies or
uh legislation what
i'm more interested in is
Having, you know on a global level with
the seafood sector
where there's a lot of NGOs
Yeah, having them focus more on the roles

(01:31:50):
that states have whether
they're doing a good job now
or not, but to really focus on
Keeping states accountable
because they do have
Responsibility to properly manage their
response their fisheries resources under
uh, the international law of the sea so
there is that obligation and

(01:32:14):
uh, I would really like to
see that the the sector and the
Different NGOs working in that sector
focus much more on that and uh,
Because whether they're
already doing a good job
Or not so much or maybe they
just don't know where to start
I think a lot of focus should go on

(01:32:35):
building that capacity and
creating more awareness, uh on
What is going on there? Why is it failing
and also being a little bit more tangible
about that and not just like
a state is doing a bad job and their
fisheries management system is
inadequate, but more like
really
Tangibly think about what are systems?

(01:32:58):
that you know certain legislation can
keep in place that are really enabling
For this type of illicit activity to take
place and for an example
could be for instance. Okay. How
does a country?
You know capture information around the
ultimate beneficial owner of a vessel

(01:33:19):
And uh, how does it share that
information with stakeholders?
If the state doesn't have enough
capacity, how is it relying on other
could be public
international institutions or?
um NGOs to increase that capacity and
So I think there's a lot of work to be

(01:33:39):
done in focusing on what states are doing
But i'd like to approach that not so much
from uh, let's categorize it
and say this good bad, uh, worst
um, but more from okay, what
Should be done. What is important? What
are the risks? What should be considered
for these systems and

(01:33:59):
um
Focus a lot more on pushing states to do
the right thing there
That's a that's an interesting concept
right is to understand what's you know,
what's happening. What's the risks?
There are so many states it's really
difficult to try and blanket
Legislation for the world obviously the
question I asked before was a little

(01:34:20):
loaded because it was like hey, how's
every how's all the fishing
Legislation around the world working
obviously that's very different different
cultures different
places around the world
Everything is so unique
When we we look at specific legislation
and I assume that's what you you're doing
and you're going to
talk about for you know
your consultant any day

(01:34:40):
And and to look at specific legislation
and to analyze that and say here's the
here this this the
good part of legislation
What's working?
Here's what's not working?
and then to push that
state to you know repair or to
um
You know build a stronger legislation to
help not only the fishing community, but

(01:35:01):
also the seafood sector
within that within that state
That is complex in itself to to be able
to do that because some states may not be
May not be willing to make those changes
When you do an analysis on a on a policy
like that or on a on
a piece of legislation
What's your approach?
When you start to to look at that

(01:35:21):
understanding that some states may not
want to change too much
because we know humans
We don't like change, right? Yes. No, and
it's like I said, it's
also very political and it's
it's not just a bunch of rules right and
But what I love and what I have very
particularly chosen is to be in the role
of a researcher and an advisor

(01:35:43):
I am not necessarily pushing an agenda.
Sure. Like I said, I'm pushing for
attention more on certain elements
and uh
But not so much saying oh, this is
exactly the level of
transparency that a state should have
Because that's not my field of expertise
that there are other NGOs that are, you
know doing great job at researching that

(01:36:06):
uh, so what I
do is
Now particularly one thing that I do
really believe in is
and when we say
fisheries transparency at
least when when I say it, um
I
Think you know that having that public
availability of

(01:36:26):
information is crucial. Um
But I don't necessarily
uh
Think that you know, we should encourage
states to just put any
fisheries data out there
I think we need to really emphasize
um and consider, okay,
what type of fisheries data
is
valuable

(01:36:47):
For so what are NGOs interested in? So
look at all these fisheries data elements
which ones do the NGOs even care about?
Um, and which ones can they actually
translate into meaningful impact like for
instance that increased capacity and
there are a number of
uh
civil society organizations that are
really doing great job like

(01:37:07):
Think you have like tmt you have of
course global fishing watch oceana is
really pushing for that transparency
Pew published a lot of great research.
So, you know, there are definitely those
groups that I really
think have an amazingly
great focus and um
But I don't and

(01:37:28):
Whatever they could use I think there
should be a conversation around. Okay.
Can that type of
fisheries data be shared?
with them
but there's also the
um
other side
of the equation which is concerns about
privacy or proprietary information
And that is something that i'm focusing

(01:37:51):
on particularly right now
where it is um
And this is very common in international
law where you have maybe an
obligation or kind of a goal
um on the one hand, but on the other
hand, you do have rights of individuals
And you need to find a proper balance
there. So you can just there are

(01:38:12):
certain data elements linked to fisheries
that are also linked to individuals
because people work on vessels people own
vessels people benefit from
uh the vessel activity so
There there is a link there between uh,
intellectual property law or personal
data protection law, you
know the right to privacy
And what i'm doing now

(01:38:33):
specifically is researching. Um
Okay, where?
uh, you know i'm
currently looking at a case
30 case studies of different countries
where i'm looking at all of the
protections that could
possibly exist for fisheries data
so, uh first is uh

(01:38:54):
Looking at okay. Is
there any way you can?
um
Under this jurisdiction should uh certain
data elements be protected and um
Or
Because you know, it might violate the
right privacy of a person that's on board
of the vessel or it might uh, you know
Give away a trade secret because where

(01:39:16):
they're fishing how they're fishing etc
is something that's
benefiting their company, etc
Where type of protections you find really
depends on the jurisdiction the legal
culture just uh, uh a lot of different
elements there. It's
um
But basically the first question there is
do these barriers exist?
because a lot of countries sometimes keep

(01:39:37):
the door close to
certain ngo's because they say
These barriers exist and sometimes ngo's
don't quite believe that and they feel
they're just unwilling
to collaborate with them
So my first approach is really just to
see okay. Is that assumption of the
unwillingness and true?
Uh, because if it is true then okay
um

(01:39:57):
There then you need
to find a way, you know
If if that is really the barrier that
they see you need to
find a way to work around it
Yes
And very often in the law there are all
these exceptions that are foreseen or
things you can do to mitigate the risk
Around you know data being leaked or
being made public etc
So it's definitely not
that if you know, you find one

(01:40:18):
Challenge somewhere that there's there's
no way to still achieve a higher level of
But I think we just need to be very
diligent about okay. What data elements
are we talking about? Is it valuable?
Okay for these ones
where we know it is valuable
What are the legal barriers that may
exist and they don't
come from fisheries law?
They come from all these
other fields of private law that

(01:40:39):
Everyone kind of fails to consider
because who knows anything about personal
data protection when they work in a
ministry of fisheries
like it's so true, so it
makes perfect sense and um
Okay, if there is that barrier then you
can say okay, this is how we can kind of
Work around that how we can like navigate
the law and then if there's still

(01:41:03):
No response from that state. They're
still like no, we're
absolutely not going to work with you
And they're not going to give a good
reason why they don't want
to increase the transparency
Then you know you have an unwilling
state, but until that time you just don't
know you're making assumptions
Right and I understand that's the role of
NGO sometimes is to like kick and scream

(01:41:23):
and say what's wrong with the world, but
i'd like to bring in a little bit of
nuance, uh, yeah
I really hope no NGOs take offense at
what I just said, but
Well, I mean it's true like look let's be
honest when it comes to fisheries,
especially if if a country is not willing
To work with an NGO on a

(01:41:43):
particular item their job
You know depending on what NGO it is a
lot of them their job is either to work
with them to be like
Hey, let's try and figure out
You know what the barriers are just like
like what you're saying here
Uh, but others will will get a little bit
more aggressive and
they'll press they'll become more
They'll go from
Advocation to to activism, you know, and

(01:42:05):
they'll say look we don't like the way
you get the naming and shaming and
Naming and shaming
and protesting and those
Yeah, yeah, and look they I feel like I
agree with you. I feel like there's a
there's a time and place
Uh for it and
sometimes it brings attention
We there's always arguments on what type
of attention is good attention is
negative or positive

(01:42:25):
um, and and there's there's a degree of
necessity for some of those organizations
to exist and to do what they do
But let's be honest the collaboration
Come the the the advancement comes from
collaboration the advancement comes from
little empathy going
It's like totally understand where you're
coming from. You've had
this problem in the past
You know, you really have to get to know
the state to just be like

(01:42:46):
Where are you coming from? How like why
are you progressing this way?
We would love to offer you some help if
needed if you would like it. Not every
state is going to accept it
Um, some are some aren't I feel like
these days though and you can correct me
if I'm wrong because you
probably work with a lot
Of these different states
Do you find most of them are coming in
with a little bit more?
optimism in terms of working with other

(01:43:10):
companies or organizations to
better their fisheries
I think a lot of states
particularly when they
have challenges in the
capacity they um can be very willing and
uh, at least the
people you talk to it's it's
Question sometimes whether the broader
political system is as willing because

(01:43:30):
they have different
priorities, but of course it's um
Yeah, certainly and now I just gave the
example of working with NGOs, right?
And i'm not saying that states are
obligated to work with NGOs
I'm just saying there are a lot of NGOs
that are doing great work when it comes
to fisheries transparency
And if there is a need for more capacity

(01:43:51):
if there's a need for that support. Yeah,
I think it's a really great
Uh option and it would be
a waste basically to yeah
have these
Just because you don't
quite know how to work with
Uh balancing these different areas of law
and these different interests
to not move forward with that
I just think that
would be a waste. So that's

(01:44:12):
uh, but i'm not saying they're obligated
to do that. They're
just obligated to have a
adequate system for
uh
managing their fishery resources
and
um
If they already do that
Great, right. Yeah, but I very
uh
Now feel like so these are the the states

(01:44:33):
the NGOs that are
focusing on working with states
um, and I think that's
Great
and
I see that the large majority of NGOs in
the sector are not even doing that
they're not focused at all on states
They're more like oh, yeah fisheries
management's not really
doing the job. It should do so

(01:44:53):
Let's just come up with all these private
mechanisms. That's going to kind of fill
that gap and it just doesn't because
a private institute, you know, sure they
can there are examples of
them doing a good job, um
but
ultimately
I feel like it's such
a large group focusing

(01:45:14):
only on private efforts not at all on uh,
the role of public institutions
That gives me kind of the impression that
we're very distracted with what really
matters, which is a more sustainable
sustainable as in long-term
change of how we manage fisheries
Uh to really create a more responsible
and equitable sector

(01:45:34):
So that worries me
um
and I think it's
You know private mechanisms. They're not
able to do the same things
that states can they don't
participate in rfmo's they don't
uh, they're they don't have a
they're not involved with

(01:45:55):
the
creation, uh of new treaties like you
have now the high seas treaties that
we're waiting to have
enough states ratify that like
Why aren't more?
And she was pushing states to ratify this
treaty like there is an
instrument that can really
uh
provide support in this
International collaboration that we need

(01:46:16):
and no instead we're here just you know
Working with all these
Different mechanisms that are just
tackling such a small part of the issue
um
and I feel like a lot of
Time and energy goes goes wasted there
and that is why you know, I say generally

(01:46:37):
i'm not necessarily the one
That feels particularly comfortable with
passing judgment on you know
states not doing good job here
Well, because understands the very
complex system that
they're part of of course
But when it comes to an NGO, I you know
Maybe it is because I have worked for an
NGO in the past and I know this sector.
Well, it's I do feel a
bit more comfortable being
like

(01:46:58):
No, i've been here now for eight years
and I think you're wrong. I
think this approach is just uh
It's a bandage
Sure, it might do something right, but
right let's not lose
Track of what really matters here and
that's what states are doing
And I really really i'm such a big
supporter of the NGOs

(01:47:19):
that are really supporting
States directly or that
are pushing states directly
Or that are maybe taking part in in these
types of meetings like you have the UN
ocean conference or
you have the sometimes
NGOs also have a seat with
Rfms at least in a advisory capacity like
all of that amazing

(01:47:39):
keep doing great work there
But ultimately it should be focused on
that primary responsibility
And that lies with states and they just
have so much more power so much more
means to achieve that
Yeah, and we need to kind of stop
putting mandates everywhere because we're
just creating a lot of confusion and

(01:48:00):
Maybe also unwillingness to even talk
about sustainability anymore. Yeah, it's
true though. I I agree
That's it tends to not
get be the focus anymore
There's seem to be more short-term
bandages and short-term
changes, but not nothing long-term
When it comes to the work
that you do at natural justice
Um, can you talk a little bit about that

(01:48:20):
you talk about doing research and looking
at policies looking at laws?
Can you maybe give us an example of some
of the projects that you're
that you're able to talk about?
Yeah, certainly. So I
Do different projects.
It kind of depends on
One side I do work with these different
NGOs or they're not even really NGOs.
They're more like
civil society organizations

(01:48:41):
Uh because they're not
in the field of advocacy
uh, but the different
civil society organizations that are
working on fisheries transparency and I
do legal research on
the examples that I gave of
Personal data protection for instance or
intellectual property law where they're
running into legal barriers and they're

(01:49:01):
just trying to understand
Okay, is this indeed what you know, these
government representatives have told us
and if so, how can we
change our approach?
To still be able to work with them to
still achieve our mission.
Yes, which I uh fully applaud
I think that's a great way of of trying
to achieve it where it's like
Okay, if not this way then this way
because no one said it
was going to be easy, right?

(01:49:22):
It's it's okay to hit hit
these different roadblocks and um
Well, and sometimes the lawmakers don't
know the law sometimes they don't know
the policies are there
We've kind of seen it here in north
america with the new us president or the
returning us president
talking about certain things
Like I can do this I can do that
But then when it comes down to the court
You can't do a lot of those policies and

(01:49:42):
laws because you just weren't aware of
what was of what was
happening before. You know, it's very
Uh true. Yeah often people can work at a
government, but don't
understand the law at all
But even lawyers they will be so
specialized in their field that they
don't understand how their field
interacts with other fields
True, especially when you talk about
broadening the type of laws that are
coming in for privacy

(01:50:03):
and so forth, right?
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so I mean I never
focused on personal
data protection necessarily
uh that much in law
school i'm lucky that I am from
a
European law like that's I was educated
in a european law school and that
personal data protection
is very much something where
The eu has has pushed a lot for that and

(01:50:25):
it's yeah, they take it seriously. Yeah
Yeah, so you so you see
a lot of the different
countries particularly civil law
countries, so those
are countries that have a
legal system based off of the french
system where everything will be very much
already dictated in the
law and then the court's
um
role is to interpret that law that is uh,

(01:50:48):
generally you see a lot
of those countries have
Personal data protection laws that are
very similar to what the eu
um has done because I
guess they're kind of the
um
Leading um, I guess a lot
of the development there
But if you look at countries like the us
or canada where it's a common law system
It will be very different and also the

(01:51:10):
legal barriers you're going to run into
they're going to be very different
so
That is a bit novel to me
But you know, I talk to a
lot of lawyers from different
areas and a lot of stakeholders that are
more on the other side that are running
into these legal barriers
And with all of that i'm trying to kind
of make some sort of sense

(01:51:31):
of it. Yeah, it's definitely
uh
uncharted territory sometimes
Because people that are interested in
fisheries, they're not going to
specialize in
personal data protection. No
I'm lucky because I just love law. It's
just one big puzzle to
me. I can look at it all day
I'm just like analyzing stuff. It's

(01:51:52):
I just born to do legal work. Basically.
I also know it sounds
extremely boring to a lot of people
And if you're like i'm going to go into
the fisheries sector marine
conservation, it's exciting
you're not going to want to
specialize in those areas and um
so I don't expect people that work for a
ministry of fisheries to to
know a lot about that because

(01:52:13):
They might think it's not that relevant,
but it is a lot of different
legal protections will be relevant for
fisheries because we're talking about
fisheries data and data is such a
topic right now where we're talking a lot
about how do we balance
the availability of data with
uh privacy and

(01:52:33):
national security for sure and
all these different
different elements, so it's
It's really quite important, but it is
also extremely niche
and
um
Yeah government representatives and even
lawyers. They won't always know
everything. I definitely don't pretend
like I know everything
I just know that i'm focused on it and

(01:52:55):
every day I try and learn a little bit
more about it and every day
I try and solve this
puzzle a little bit more for the
uh civil society organizations that are
trying to work with states
on fisheries transparency
I also work on agriculture
and uh there we're looking also a lot at
not just the law and policy but also a

(01:53:15):
lot at the science and
basically just kind of
bringing all of that together and
What I really like is generally with
natural justice is to bring more
I guess nuance and also just more
Very clear and transparent thinking of
okay. Why are we you know, we're doing a
gap analysis. Okay.
What's this framework?

(01:53:35):
What have we based that on and it's just
going to be purely based on science law?
Yeah, very tangible things
that are not that political
um
and just comparing it with that with the
conclusions it's really up to the the
clients that we work with to
do with that what uh
they see fit but um

(01:53:56):
yeah, really just bringing in very
thorough analysis and
because we are not a
civil society
organization as in that we are
We're trying to make an impact, but we're
not a not-for-profit. So
we don't depend on funding
We can work on what we want. Well, of
course, we need to have
clients that actually pay us
otherwise i'm doing a
lot of volunteering, but

(01:54:18):
It's
We're pretty free in that sense. Yeah at
least yeah, I think that's great
Yeah, 100. I think it's great because it
allows you to you know, get that
creativity it allows
you to really expand and and also take
from you know one state and apply what
would benefit to another state or
You know vice versa and I think that

(01:54:40):
Gives you that freedom to do that instead
if you work for one state or
you work for it in jail within
You know within a confines
of one place you can really
Go across sectors within fisheries and
across states, which I
think is really important
It's and it's what needed and I think it
allows you to build that experience
uh to to focus on that which which I
which I think is wonderful really

(01:55:00):
grateful as well for having been able to
build a good network where I
See there's different worlds that i'm
sometimes and they don't interact that
much with each other
But I try and interact with all of them.
So yeah, this research actually that I
was talking about the legal barriers
or legal protections
of fisheries data, um,

(01:55:22):
uh initiated that as a phd at
University of hombre so through that i'm
also part of this like legal scholar
community that just like
talks about law of the sea
And all those things and that's just a
completely separate
world and then uh, my world
like my work world is mostly in
The seafood sector where I am in contact

(01:55:44):
with a lot of civil society
organizations, but also
with supply chain companies
and um
But I also and this is mostly through
uh, I think coursework and then uh
coursework that I was able
to do through fao and then
um now linking that to my research as
well, I talk to a lot of

(01:56:05):
government representatives
so i'm really able to learn from the
experience of a lot of different people
with very different
perspectives on this and it's
I think really helpful to
yeah, love kind of
Would love it if natural justice, you
know, like maybe five years from now
I can say like actually we've helped to

(01:56:27):
kind of build bridges a little bit
between those worlds like bring more of
that understanding of
the legal perspective
into the seafood sector, um
as well as
you know to
government
Representatives where i've you know i've
taken the example of legal
barriers to working with ngoes
but it can even be

(01:56:48):
There's many examples of legal barriers
of different public
institutes of one state
Not being able to share
certain fisheries data
Between them because it was confidential
and I couldn't be
shared to another institute
So, you know, it really just is relevant
for different levels and with that for
different stakeholders

(01:57:09):
And yeah, I really love
kind of building those bridges
But also just feel very fortunate that I
can learn from a lot of these firsthand
experiences because I
certainly don't have them
Yeah for sure. No, I love
it. I love this has been
amazing to dive deep into
You know
All these different types of policies and
laws and where we're at and where we need
to go and the research

(01:57:29):
that you've been able
to accomplish
It seems like you're just scratching the
surface, you know from from your career
and and really getting into it
I love it and i'd love to have you back
on invite you back on to talk more and on
a more regular basis because I feel like
you could become our
Our correspondent for law and fisheries.
I think it'd be it would be a lot of fun
um in one last question in terms of like

(01:57:51):
the future of fisheries and law like
Where do you think we really need to
focus in to really, you
know protect our fisheries?
Overall, it doesn't have to be specific
But just overall that you've seen in
terms of trends of the work
that you've been able to to do
Is that a very
It's a big question
question, but I think for me right now

(01:58:14):
with what i've seen for
me the biggest point is
Because governments they're like I said
i've emphasized a lot they're
responsible, but they're also
In a system that it's it's not
necessarily that they can
change things overnight, right?
and I
recognize that in the interim we do need
The private sector to step up and make

(01:58:36):
sure that they're still sourcing seafood
Properly and they rely on NGOs to do that
and that is all fine, but I would still
Like to really see that instead of
finding each other on
which private mechanism is best
There would be maybe a little bit more
alignment within that

(01:58:57):
fishery sector and with that
more focus on
Pushing states to at least for instance
ratify these international treaties like
i've mentioned the high seed treaty
but there's also one from the
World Trade Organization on the
Ill-directed subsidies that

(01:59:18):
we see a lot with fisheries
So if we can get more of a push to at
least at the international level
Push states to do the right thing
And then we can take that next step on
focusing how we can best as a sector
really
push them to
Responsibly manage those fisheries

(01:59:40):
resources and I think that could be
a much better use of
resources yeah and
um
Those
Yeah, that's I think i'm gonna stop there
because I can ramble
I just I have a lot to say in this

(02:00:00):
context. I love it. I think it's
uh, I think that could be a good start
and I also know that you know looking at
at least where Europe or
The us is now it's
maybe not a very popular
opinion to
promote state responsibility and
environmental management because we don't

(02:00:20):
really seem to have the politicians in
place that are going to
step up to do that but
Let's not I mean
Most cases it's a term of four years
Let's not focus on the short-term goals.
Let's focus on the
long-term goals and exactly
The world's a big place. There's a lot of
governments that are still trying every
day to do better and

(02:00:40):
Yeah, it's like we said
before this is not a fisheries
Yeah, and let me say first not a
Sorry, sorry. Go ahead. He's finished
no worries, uh, no just work towards a
more promising future of fisheries
because i've seen in the past
eight years a lot of talk but
Except for those two treaties that I

(02:01:02):
mentioned that need to be ratified by
more states. I've seen
little tangible results
Yeah, no 100 and then
obviously we need we need more
Uh, I don't even think canada has
ratified it yet. Uh, the high seas
treaty. Anyway, uh,
call your government today
I I agree they're going out soon. So they
want to vote provincially, but yeah, we
got to talk friendly, too

(02:01:23):
I completely agree
Look, this is a you know, obviously
fisheries is a complex issue.
It's it's never easy to solve
This is why it's been such a like a topic
of conversation for a long time
But I feel like you know understanding
the laws that are around
and what needs to be done
Is really is really helpful.
So I want to thank you so much
Ava for coming on the podcast and being

(02:01:43):
able to talk to us about this and again
Can't wait to have
you back on to talk more
Yeah, very welcome. Thanks a lot
Thank you Ava for joining us on today's
episode of the how to
protect the ocean podcast
It was great to be able to have you on to
discuss law and fisheries
I just think that this is such a
complicated issue and so complex
It's nice to have somebody on the podcast
to be able to help us get through all the
layers of different laws and

(02:02:04):
What we need to really
focus on in the future
I thought it was really interesting to
see your perspectives on you know
The law and what we need to do and take
away some of these private mechanisms and
manage more publicly and
more through governance
From the different states.
I think that's really great
Obviously collaboration is key,
especially within the eu and other
countries as well that have you know
neighboring borders or

(02:02:25):
the share the same border
I feel like that's something that can
always be improved upon no matter where
you are in the world
So sometimes you are neighbors with
friends and sometimes you are not allies
and sometimes you're allies
You don't even realize that one person
wants more than the other and this really
can be complex just within that
So it really is a focus on how to

(02:02:45):
negotiate how to get along
and how to manage fisheries
Because fish don't see borders like we do
and so they see
borders from natural borders
We see borders from political borders and
that can be complex within itself
So it's great to be able to have ava on
and i'm going to put links
to get to connect with ava
And you find out more about her
consultancy called natural justice and

(02:03:05):
you can find her at
natural justice dot n l
dot natural justice dot
And we'll put more links to her linkedin
as well and to her newsletter.
That's it for today's episode
I want to thank ava again
for coming on the podcast
I want to thank you for listening to this
podcast if you have any questions or
comments about the episode
Please feel free to dm me on instagram
You can do so at how to protect the ocean

(02:03:27):
That's at how to protect the ocean and if
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(02:03:47):
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that's it for today's episode of the how
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I'm your host. Andrew lewin from the true
north strong and free. Enjoy your day.
Have a great one and happy conservation

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