Shark Communication: Graduate Studies, Sharks Science, and TikTok with Kenzie Horton

Episode Transcript
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(01:00:00):
Marine Biology is
one of those
careers where you
are driven by
passion. And on
today's episode
of the How to
Protect the Ocean
podcast, I'm
going to be
talking to marine
biologist Kenzie
Horton, who is
here to talk
about her drive
and her passion
and how it's
become a huge
part of her life
and
demonstrates it
in her career as
a marine

(01:00:20):
biologist. She
works for the
state government
in Florida. She
is doing a
master's
at the same
time on white
sharks. She is
doing science
communication on
TikTok to talk
about everything
surrounding marine
biology and
busting up those
myths and giving
you advice
of what to
wear and what not
to wear while
you're swimming
in the ocean.
I do not wear a

(01:00:40):
sequined bikini
because
apparently
that may or
may not have been
a thing. But she
talks about a lot
of stuff
on today's
episode and we're
gonna find out by
starting the
show. Hey,
everybody,
welcome back to
another
exciting episode
of the How to
Protect the Ocean
podcast. I am
your host Andrew
Lewin. And this
is the podcast
where you find
out what's
happening with
the ocean, how
you can speak up
for the ocean,
what you can do
to live for a

(01:01:00):
better ocean by
taking action.
I've got a very
special guest
today, Kenzie
Horton, who is a
marine biologist.
I feel like
she's, you know,
she's been in the
career for a
while. She's been
in the field for
a while. And
she's here to
talk about her
experience of how
she got a job
coming out of
universities, the
struggles that
she had. But
she's also here
to talk about the
passion that she
has for marine

(01:01:21):
biology, how she
likes to educate
people through
science
communication,
how she's doing a
master's and she
wants to pursue
academia, which
she don't see a lot of people.
A lot of people
doing these days,
but doing a PhD,
becoming
professor
teaching,
becoming an
educator, it's
all here. You
have everything
you need in, you
know, what to
know about a
marine biologist.
Kenzie is that

(01:01:41):
formula and it is
fun to learn her
story, even
stretching from
her inspiration
of her
grandfather and
his legacy and
how that's come
out in her
passion for
marine biology.
It is a great
episode. I can't
wait for you to
see the
interview. So
here's the
interview with
Kenzie Horton
talking about her
career in marine
biology.
She's a great person to talk about science
communication and
doing a master's.
She is amazing.

(01:02:02):
You're going to
love the
interview. Enjoy
and I will talk
to you after.
Hey, Kenzie.
Welcome to the
how to protect
the ocean
podcast. Are you
ready to talk
about the ocean?
Yes, I'm really
excited. Thank
you for having
me. No problem. I
am very excited
as well. I've
been you've been
on the bucket
list for the
podcast for quite
some time since I
discovered you on
TikTok in your
videos. It's been a real treat to get to know you through through TikTok. But now we're really going to get to know each other through this through this podcast. And I'm very, very excited. Thank you for having me.

(01:02:28):
I'm very excited
because I get I
want the audience
to know who you
are as well.
Hopefully they'll
follow you on on
TikTok as well.
And we get to see
what you're doing
on those videos
talking about
sharks talking
about the ocean,
making sure
people are doing
the right things
when they swim
and wearing the
right things when
they swim. We'll
talk about that
in a second as
well. But it's
going to be a lot
of fun. I'm
looking forward
to it and really

(01:02:49):
talking about,
you know, the
science
communication
that you're
doing. But also
you're doing
something really
special and it
doesn't happen
often. You're
working
full time in.
You know, the
field of marine
biology, but
you're also doing
graduate work in
the field of
marine biology at
the same time. I
don't know how
you do it. We're
going to find out

(01:03:09):
today. I can't
wait before we
do. I want you to
let the audience
know who you are
and what you do.
Awesome. Yeah. So
my name is Kenzie
Horton. I'm a
fisheries
biologist with
the Florida Fish
and Wildlife
Conservation
Commission in
Florida. But I
also am a full
time grad student
at Jacksonville
University where
I studied the
movements of
white sharks in
their
overwintering
residency phase
in the

(01:03:29):
Carolinas region.
So full time work
with fisheries
biologists with
the state agency
as well as full
time work with
Jackson
University. But
it's really
unique because
the FWC office
that I work in is
actually in the
marine science
research
Institute on
Jay's campus. So
everything is in
one building.
You have hit the
perfect note

(01:03:50):
there because
that is like
you're able to do
the work and do
your masters at
the same time,
which I love. I
think that that's
that's how you
have to marry it.
Right. And we'll
get into that a
little bit more.
But that's really
the key so that
you don't go
crazy. You know
what I mean? Like
doing two
separate projects
is is going to be
very difficult.
Having this. I
think that's
that's wonderful.
We're going to
dive into that. I

(01:04:10):
want to get to
know you a little
bit more. You
know, we all all
marine biologists
have a story of
how we got into
to marine biology.
I want to hear
your story. I
want the audience
to hear your
story because
I've read a
little bit about
it. It's quite
quite special.
Can you just talk
about how you got
interested? Like
what was that
factor that made
you interested in
the ocean?
Yeah. So I
mentioned I'm in

(01:04:31):
Florida right
now, but I was
born and raised
in Florida. I
grew up in
Orlando, so
central Florida.
But every year my
parents and I
would take a
family vacation
down to Key West
and we'd always
go snorkeling.
And I fell in
love with every
all the fish and
everything in the
reefs. And it was right when I was in Florida.
And it was right
when underwater
disposable
cameras were
becoming popular.
And so I saved my

(01:04:52):
allowance when I
had this little
piggy bank all
year. I find
change in the
couch for my my
dad's you know
that you'd sit
down and his
change would fall
to the couch and
I get all those
change. And then
I would go and I
would get my
money for it. And
that'd be my
allowance money
for this trip.
And I bought a
fish
identification
book to take down
with me and I was
so excited. And
so I spent the

(01:05:12):
entire eight hour
drive reading
through this
book, you know,
not understanding
some of it, but
then I was very
young. So half
the words I was
were jargon to
me, but I was
looking at the
pretty pictures
and trying to
learn as much as
I could.
And when we were
down there, I
started taking
pictures of all
these fish and
playing the
matching game in
this fish ID
book. And I just
became so in love

(01:05:33):
with just trying
to figure out
what they were.
And I would read
every bit of
information I
could understand
about these fish.
And then I would
go and tell my
parents about it.
And then we would
go out snorkeling
and I would come
up to the surface
and I'd be like,
Hey, did you see
that blue
parrotfish? You
know, blue
parrotfish, you
know, eats, you
know, you know,
you can hear it.
It has a beak and
it's eating, you
know, organisms
off the coral.
I would I would
just go into
these spules as a

(01:05:54):
kid talking
about, you know,
all the different
fish I was
seeing. And I
subconsciously at
that age kind of
knew that was
going to be my
progression. I
think my parents
really knew that
that was what the
rest of my life
was going
to look like.
And I kind of
like point it
probably started
at like four or
five and went up
to like, I mean,

(01:06:14):
I mean, yeah, it
was we went every
year and every
year I would
learn something
new and I would
find new fish.
And, you know,
there we went to
the dry tour to
guess and I'll
never forget. I
actually have a
couple of
hogfish. So
hogfish have
become one of my
favorite fish
because of this
one moment.
I dove down and
it was sitting
there and it
opened and they
had a very large
mouth and it
freaked me out

(01:06:35):
for a second when
I was a kid.
So I swam to the
surface and I was
panicking. My mom
was panicking.
She couldn't
figure out what
was going on. And
I tried to tell
her this fish
yawned at me and
had these giant
teeth and they
had two, you
know, giant
canines by the
time I didn't know.
And so we get
back, you know,
back to the hotel
and I'm flipping
through the book
trying to find
this fish and
she's like, no,
no, it doesn't
have any teeth.
It's you know,

(01:06:56):
but don't worry
about it.
And she was just
trying to calm me
down. She knew
what it was, but
she was trying to
calm me down. She
was like, don't
worry. And then I
find it and I
said, you know,
too large
canines.
I'm pointing to
the book and I'm
like, see, they
have teeth. I'm
not crazy. Yeah.
Yeah. So I mean,
I did that for so many years.

(01:07:16):
And, you know,
not realizing
that my life
would end up
being just that.
And and another
part was like I
was really I
always love, you
know, the movies
like the
Living Seas.
That was I was
mesmerized by
that. I was it
talked about all
these different
aspects of the
marine science
world and it, you
know, explore,

(01:07:37):
you know, more
uncharted areas.
And I just
remember I would
watch that and I,
you know, the
sting soundtrack,
you know, even to
this day, I'll
listen to that
song fragile by
sting. And I'm
like transported
back to being a
kid sitting in
front of the TV
watching this.
So I was
influenced by so
many different
things. And one
of that's really
deeply connected
to me is my
grandfather. I

(01:07:59):
think I mentioned
this briefly in
our in my email
to you. Yes.
But my
grandfather was a
submariner with
the US Navy. They
were coming back
from the
Mediterranean and
the Navy lost
communication
with them.
They're about a
day out of
Norfolk. They're
about 100 miles, I think,
southwest of
the Azores.
And it was on May
22nd and they

(01:08:19):
lost all
communication.
And it wasn't
until about a
week later that
they were
officially
announced lost at
sea. My mother
was two years
old. My uncle was
five. So my
grandmother had
two very young children.
Yeah. And so it
was very hard for
her. And she
never remarried.
She always wore
her wedding ring.
But she always
talked so fondly

(01:08:39):
about him. And I
know, like, we've
always stayed
connected through
memorial groups
through with the
scorpion. That
was the sub that he was on.
And she'd always
tell me stories
growing up of how
much he loved the
sea and he loved
history. And he
was planning this
sailing trip
around the world.
And he had these
maps and he was
chartering it. He

(01:08:59):
had a sex that he
was learning how
to navigate using
the stars. I
actually still
have. I actually
have his the sex
that he used. He
was trying to
learn on.
And she always
told me that I
had his spirit.
She's always said
that I feel like
I'm talking to
George again.
She's like, when
I talk to you and
I see how you

(01:09:20):
light up when you
talk about the
ocean and you're
talking about
these fish, she's
like, I see him
through you. And
so that growing
up and not
knowing this
person and
knowing that I
would have loved
this person, we
would have been
two peas in a
pod, but just
still feeling
connected to
someone I've
never met.
But because we
shared so many
similar interests
and loves for the
ocean and
learning and
history and just

(01:09:41):
being surrounded
by the ocean. So
I think with all
those factors of
just growing up
and being
surrounded by the
ocean and the sea
and learning, my
natural
progression into
marine science
was just always
going to be
there. And I knew
that that was my
passion. You
know, I always
say, you know,
you never work a
day in your life
if you truly love

(01:10:01):
what you do. And
I truly
love what I do.
I do every day.
You know, there
are days when
I've been in the
mud and I'm
looking at myself
going, what am I
doing? Why am I
here? But then
there are days
I'm not at sea
and I've been out
for days on end
and it's a
beautiful sunset.
And I'm just
sitting there
looking out and
I'm 100 miles

(01:10:22):
offshore and the
stars come out at
night. And I'm
like, wow, this
is my job. I am
getting paid to
do what people
pay to do.
And I get to see
things that
people don't
normally get to
see or interact
with animals that
you don't
normally get to
interact with. So
that's just kind
of how my life
has led me up
into this point.

(01:10:43):
So I think I'm
very fortunate in
that. But that's
kind of my story.
And I feel like
that's why
I'm here.
Well, I love and
I love it. I love
you can obviously
see the passion,
you know, through
just the story
that you told it.
It's it's
amazing. It's
shared by a lot
of marine
biologists like
who get to the
point where
you're at, which
is not easy.
Let's be honest.

(01:11:04):
It's not an easy
road. You know,
we talk about
passion. We talk
about how that
takes you. And it
does take you
far. It does take
you through the
hard times. It
does take you
through the
nicest studying
the staying up
late. The long
days at sea.
Those are never
easy. You know,
sometimes the sea works with you.
And sometimes it
works against you
and it can be
dangerous and you
know, you have to
be careful. And

(01:11:24):
so there's a lot
of things that go
with the job,
like any job
where there's
some good days
and some bad days
and so forth. But
to get to where
you are, like I
mentioned before,
is not easy. You
know, the
schooling is can
be difficult.
Just getting in
to university in college can be difficult.
Going through
college, you
know, in a marine

(01:11:45):
biology program
is difficult,
right? Getting
that job
afterwards is not
easy. You know,
you have to be
vigilant. You
have to be
connected. You
know, you have to
have a network. I
talk about this
all the time. Was
there any knowing
since you were
like four or five that you had this passion in you?
I had it when I
was 14. You know,

(01:12:05):
that's when I
realized like I
want to be marine
biologist. Were
there any points
in that time
where you
wavered, you
know, once you
discovered that,
hey, well, I
guess the first
thing when did
you discover that
you could do this
for a living and
get paid to do
this? And then
were there any
those at any
point in time
during schooling,
whether it be
high school,
whether it be
university that

(01:12:25):
you struggled at
and you were
like, maybe this isn't for me.
I would say there
was never a time
that I was like,
this is not for
me, but there
were times where
I thought, can I
really do this?
You know, and I
found out early
on is my parents,
you know, they
were my, you
know, my dad was
in the Navy. So
my parents grew
up around the
ocean. So they I

(01:12:46):
knew that jobs in
the marine world
were there. I
didn't know how
many I didn't
learn about how
vast the industry
really is. You
know, you always
think about a
dolphin trainer
or, you know, being a dolphin trainer.
Or, you know,
being working in
aquarium, which
are amazing
positions, but
those the only
two that when you
grow up that you
think of and they
don't they don't
tell you all the

(01:13:06):
small, you know,
that you could be
working with just
plankton, you'd
be working with
mollus. You could
go into the
private sector,
you could be an
academia. There's
so many things
that you just
aren't aware of
unless you are
exposed to that.
And that usually
happens in
university. So I
didn't know about
options in the
marine science
world until high
school and into
university.
But I will say

(01:13:26):
that I have had
many people, not
necessarily
family, just
people that were
outside or I
would talk to
them about like
my jobs or even
people in college
and in some in
high school and I
would be like,
Yeah, I really
want to be a
marine biologist
and they go, so
does everyone
else find
something else.
You know, it's
every nineties
child, you know,

(01:13:47):
dream with your
Lisa Frank
dolphin folders,
you know,
everyone wants to
be a marine
biologist. And
and so I think a
lot of people
didn't realize
that, you know,
didn't really
know my backstory
and just how I
grew up.
You know, that
was what everyone
wanted to do as a
kid, and
especially in
Florida. So, so I

(01:14:08):
think hearing
that early on
wasn't too bad,
but it was really
when I got into
university when I
had some people
that I, you know,
were, were in
the, you know,
professors and
they would be
like, kind of
warning you
against it
because it
doesn't pay all that well.
I mean, the main
thing is marine,
marine science is
usually
underfunded.
You're always

(01:14:28):
applying for
grants. You're
always trying to
find funding. And
so finding stable
funds and stable
grants,
especially in
academia is very difficult.
So they always
worry about that,
like, Hey, you
might not have
an, you know, if
you go into
finance, if you
go into business,
you go into, you
know, marketing
accounting,
you're going to
have a salary,

(01:14:48):
you're going to
have a set
paycheck, you
know, you know,
no matter what,
nothing is
necessarily
changing per se.
But in marine
science,
depending on what
sector you're in,
you know, you're
kind of reliant
on your grants,
you're reliant on
the funding
coming in. And so
there is that
level of
uncertainty is,
you know, am I
going to have
money in a year?

(01:15:09):
You know, is this
project going to
be funded in the
next few years?
Like, yeah, right
now, it's great.
But when I have,
when it's up and
I need to
reapply, is it
going to be as
readily
available? So
those are the
things I think
people will
warning me about
that you don't,
again, truly know
until you're
really in it.
But there was a
few times where I
was, I would say,
like, discourage
where I was like,
I'm a little
nervous. But

(01:15:31):
there's a few
times that people
will be like,
especially with
shark biology,
everyone wants to
work for sharks.
They are the
charismatic
megafauna, you
know, especially
with all the TV
shows, they, they
get all you know,
they're the
shiny, the, you
know, the
impressive
things, which
they are, but
everyone wants to
do it. And so as
you move through
the field, you
get people that
are like, find backup plans.

(01:15:51):
You know, and,
and, you know,
everyone that I,
you know, on your
other podcast,
like the Beyond
Jaws one, you
know, everyone's
always like, my
path to sharks
was never a
direct line. And
there may be a
handful. There's
always the few
that just were
able to, to do
it. But it's
usually some
windy road. And
so I think a lot
of people were
trying to tell me

(01:16:12):
that and, you
know, when you're
early on in your
career, you
think, well, if I
want to work for
sharks,
everything has to
be sharks. Or I
want to work
with, you know,
this certain type
of fish,
everything has to be this. Otherwise,
I'm not going to
be an expert in
this. But the
reality of it is,
is you're more
well rounded when
you can kind of
move in between
animals or, you
know, just
different

(01:16:32):
projects that
might not be
like, I said, I'm
my most of my
work is in
fisheries. It's
not necessarily
like, quote
unquote, shark
biology. But I've
kind of been able
to maneuver my
way and I've gone
back to sharks.
So I think the
moment there was
a few times early
on where I was discouraged, where I was thinking, well, I'm going to do this.
I was
discouraged,
where I was
thinking that,
oh, you know,
maybe I'll never

(01:16:52):
get a chance to
work with sharks.
I'll never get a
chance to be in
this field
because, you
know, everything
seems so
uncertain. But I
just kind of use
those things as
tournament of
motivators when
people were like,
I don't think you
can do it. And I
was like, you
know what? I can
do it. And I'm
going to do it.
I like that. And
in some way, you
kind of have to
prove people
wrong because
like, look,

(01:17:13):
anytime you
mention anything
about marine
biology or really
any kind of job
as a young
person, right?
People, there's
always going to
be doubters.
So like, is this
what you really
want to do? Like,
yeah, it seems
fun to be out on
the ocean and
diving and, you
know, sampling
and all that kind
of stuff being
out in the sun.
But is it really
like, is it
stable enough?
Can you have a
good career like

(01:17:34):
you would as a
lawyer, as a
doctor, as a
marketer, a
business person
and all that
stuff? And you
always get that
negative talk,
right? And I
always tell
people, I had a
friend of mine, I
presented in
front of
his class.
And one of the
classmates was
just like, yeah,
like, how do you
like, how do you
deal with that?
And I'm just
like, if you want

(01:17:54):
it, go for it.
Like, try it.
You're young. Try
it. Like, if it
doesn't work out,
pivot. You can
always go back to
school or you can
always do
something and and
work with
something like
you have.
You'll have a
degree. You'll
have a university
degree and you'll
be able to pivot.
I've done it a
couple of times.
I'm doing it
right now and
you'll be able to
figure it out.
But you got to
try it or else

(01:18:15):
you're just going
to regret it for
the rest of your
life. Right.
And it's just you
have to almost
tell them it like
throw it back in
their face like,
you know what,
I'm doing it. And
this is and I'm
having a blast.
You know, you're
clearly having a
blast doing this
type of work. And
you can just be
like, look, I'm
out. I'm out in
the sun getting
paid to do this.
You know, this is
a lot of fun. I'm
learning a lot.
And I feel as
though there is.
And you can answer this too. For me, there's a lot more to marine biology than just having a stable income. Obviously that matters. But if you look at any job, nothing stable these days, you can get laid off. Whether you're in these days, whether you're in the private sector or government,which used to be stable and it doesn't matter where you're from in whatever country, this can happen. So you never know what's going to be secure. You might as well do something you love or else you're not going to love. Life is going to be boring. And so I feel like you're going to be

(01:19:04):
like, do you feel
in a way like you
got to
just try it?
Oh, 100%. I mean,
that was kind of
what my my
thought process
was, was why not?
If I don't try
it, I'll never
know if I get it.
But if I try and
I get it, then it
was all worth it.
And if not, I'd
learn something
along the way. It
was a fun
journey. And I
can say I tried.

(01:19:25):
And there's no
regret later on
and being like,
well, you know, I
probably should
have tried it,
you know, who
knows? I would
rather just give
it a shot, give
it the best I can
and just see
where it goes.
Yeah, I love
that. I love that
aspect. You know,
working in
fisheries and
working in marine
biology is always
fun. And in

(01:19:47):
science, just in
general, it's fun
because like I've
talked to a lot
of people,
whether it be on
this podcast or
the Beyond Jaws
podcast, where
I'm not like,
there's some
people who have
gone through
their career.
They've gone
through like, you
know, some of the
people we've had,
like they've been
in 35 years plus
of fisheries or
marine biology or sharks.
Or whatever that
might be. But

(01:20:08):
some of the
pivots that
they've taken
within the field
have really come
from like a
question, like a
scientific
question, like
they want to know
more about
predator prey
dynamics. They
want to know more
about like
conservation or
exploring how
many how many
species can they
identify and
discover, right?
As my co host
does Dr. David
Ebert. Do you

(01:20:30):
have one of
those? Like, is
there something
that I know
you're doing a master. So that's probably the most important thing.
I'm a master. So
that's probably
your focus right
now. But overall,
is there are
there specific
questions that
you're curious
about that will
that will drive
you whether
you're working on
sharks or fish or
mammals or
whatever?
I wouldn't say
like a specific
question to a
project. I mean,
I have tons of
those. But in a

(01:20:52):
general sense, I
think it's and I
think it comes
with everyone
else. And if
people you've
interviewed, it
starts with like
a passion. Like,
we obviously love
this. And there's
something that
draws us to it. So we have a connection with it.
And then it's the
curiosity part,
you know, we,
when we see how
many questions
you can ask. And
it's that thing
where it's like,
the more you

(01:21:12):
know, the more
you realize you
don't know. And I
think that's the
exciting part
about science and
a part of us that
gets excited when
we're like, you
know, we learn
more and then
we're like, Oh,
well, what about
this? Well, what
about that? How
can this happen?
So the questions
start pouring in.
And I think that
is the excitement
part. And it
draws us into
more and more
projects. And it makes us want to do more and more projects.
And it makes us
want to do more

(01:21:32):
and more work.
Because we want
to just
understand our
world, you know,
as, as things are
kind of
constantly
changing with the
environment. And,
you know, we want
to understand
these changes.
And if we start
now, we've done a
really good job,
you know, the
past few decades,
you know, in the
future, you know,
hopefully, we'll
have these
long-term
datasets that,
you know, we can
watch these
changes through

(01:21:53):
time and
understand these
environmental
changes. You
know, we talk
about climate
change all the
time. You know,
it's so hard to
look at climate
change on such a
small
scale, you know.
needs such
a long term.
So we get, I
think as a
scientist,
we get excited
because if we
start things now
for the future
generations,
we can have these
data sets, we can
watch
them change.
So those big
picture questions
that we are

(01:22:13):
currently trying
to ask
and answer,
we might not be
able to answer in
our lifetime,
but we're setting
it up for
the future
to be able to
answer those
questions.
So I think that's
also, it's like,
we're trying to
make our world a
better place.
It starts at a
curiosity of just
learning more,
but then it's
also that drive
to wanting to
conserve
and protect what
we have now and
then make the
world better for

(01:22:34):
the future
generations.
I love that.
That's awesome. I
love that motto.
Like just figure
out how to make
the world better.
Like no matter
what, like just
figure it out.
And you have
these certain
questions.
I mean, I know as
a marine
biologist, we
always have
questions.

(01:23:00):
She wants to go
into wildlife
biology. I'm
like, she's not
marine biology.
I'm like,
nobody's perfect.
That's
fine. I get it.
You can go on
land animals, but
now I'm starting
to like think
about it.
I'm starting to,
we're starting to
ask each other
questions.
Like, I wonder
what would happen
to this.
How would we
design the study
to figure it out?
So introducing
like statistics
and all that kind
of stuff.
So it's a lot of
fun to even just
think about those
questions and
talking

(01:23:20):
about school,
like you're
working
full time.
You had your
undergraduate
degree, you get
this job.
It's wonderful.
What made you
decide to have
this crazy idea
of going
back to school?
What was the
trigger for that?
Like what made
you ignite that?
Oh, I want to go
back. And did you
always want to go
back for
graduate school?

(01:23:40):
I'd always wanted
to go back. I
definitely took
an
untraditional route.
So I graduated in
2016 with my
undergraduate and
then I got my job
and I was
working there.
And I know I
wanted to go
back, but I
really wanted to
get some real
world like
experience
in the field. And
I was trying to
also set myself
apart from some

(01:24:01):
of the other
applicants.
I was like, no
going into marine
science,
especially when
you're going into
grad school,
you have to be
competitive. You
know, there's a
lot of people and
there's a lot of
amazing,
smart people. So
I was trying to
find a way to set
myself apart. So
my thought
process was,
I'm going to take
some time off.
I'm going to kind
of reframe
myself, kind of
get back into the
mindset. I'm
going to work as
hard as I can,

(01:24:22):
learn as much as
I can through
this job. And
then I can
go back to grad
school and I can
apply what I
learned in my job
to the grad
school. And you
know, maybe it'll
help me because
I'm these
concepts are not
just in the
textbook.
I've, I've
seen the concepts
in real life.
I've seen them
applied. So I
thought that that
maybe would also
just just help me
in general. So I
went back to grad

(01:24:42):
school in 2021.
And it was kind
of during
COVID when I kind
of made this
decision, like
this is the time
because what else
was I
going to do?
I needed to study
for the GRE and
everything was
closed. So I
might as well buy
the textbook and
start studying.
And so that was
kind of that
moment where I
was like, all
right, this is
the time,
like the world,
even though this
is terrible, it's

(01:25:02):
kind of setting
me up to kind of
give me the right
time to, to give
myself to study,
get into a
university and
kind of figure
out, you know,
the next steps
from there. I
think that's
great. I mean,
it's a great, it
was a great time
to do it
because we did,
everybody had
extra time,
right? We're
either stuck at
home or, you
know, things
are a little bit
more limited to
where you can go
and whether you
want to be
limited or not,

(01:25:22):
you know,
everybody had
that decision to
make. And I think
that's, I think
it's a great
opportunity
when I always
said like, when
recessions hit
and stuff like
that, and you
have the chance,
like try and do
something extra,
go back to
school, get it
like a diploma or
get like a
degree or even
get, you know,
just go back and
get like a
project
management, you
know, diploma or
whatever that is,
certificate, and
then try and just

(01:25:42):
get a little
higher in that
education to set
yourself apart.
I really like
that, that, that
knowledge before
we just go into
the, the
graduates
and how you
balance that. Can
you talk a little
bit about like
the methods you
use to get your
first job,
like out of
university?
Because a lot of
people struggle
with getting
that, that
job, right?
People all the
times, like I've

(01:26:03):
just graduated,
I've undergrad, I
don't necessarily
want to go back
to grad, to do a
graduate degree,
but God, I can't
get, like, I
can't get
somebody to
answer my, my,
to my
application. Like
I can't get an
interview. Did
you do anything
that, that you
particularly
like realized
like, Oh, this
actually really
helped? Or did
you have a
network that
helped
you get that
job? Like what
did you feel you

(01:26:24):
did to get that,
that interview to
get that job? So
a few things.
First off, I will
say, I also
struggled. I, I
had two years
where I, I
graduated, I got
my degree,
and I was
actively
searching for
jobs. I was
bartending at the
time, I was
working odd jobs
and, you know,
save up some
money. And, you
know, there was a

(01:26:44):
point where I
got, I got
discouraged,
but I had reached
out, I had some
networks I
created during my
undergrad, I was,
I was very
involved in the
university and
biology club. And
I, you know, I
was an officer in
there and I had,
you know, I did
undergrad
research. So I
had a lot of
connections, and
obviously people
had moved on,
but I started
reaching out to
people. And a
friend of mine,

(01:27:05):
Jordy, who
actually worked
for the agency,
I reached out to
her and we were
talking. And she
said that there,
this group was
looking for
volunteers. And I
was, I was
fortunate enough
to have, you
know, the, I
guess the
network within
the area, but
also have being
able to
volunteer. And I
know, I always
say the best way

(01:27:26):
to really
get a job,
especially in
this field is
volunteer. But
even that I know,
you know, it's
privileged in
itself because
not everyone can
work for free. I
mean, it's so
hard because, you
know, I always
say even just a
few hours a day,
if you can, if
you can find it,
is better than
nothing. I was
able, I kind of
just gave up my
weekends. So I
was bartending
the weekends, but

(01:27:46):
my quote unquote
weekends during
the day, I just
volunteered. So I
volunteered for
about six to
eight hours a day
for two times a
week for a few
months. And it
was basically
just training for
the job. So I
always tell
people, I'm like,
if you can
volunteer at
several different
places, if you
don't really know
what you want to
do, and you have
the ability, try

(01:28:07):
to find some
places and you
know, give it a
month or a few
months, or just
let them know
that you're just
trying to figure
out some things,
but you want to,
you know, give
them your time
and learn
and learn from
them. But just
explore, like the
time to volunteer
is a time to
explore and you
can figure out if
you, you
know, if you
want to be a, you
know, a
zookeeper, if you
want to work in
the aquariums,
you want to do

(01:28:27):
husbandry. For
me, I, you know,
I did an
internship and I
realized that
husbandry full
time wasn't for
me. I loved
husbandry, but
just full time, I
wanted, I wanted
more research. So
I knew that I
needed to add
that in there.
But I wouldn't
have known unless
I tried. So I
think doing the
internships and
volunteering was
just, it set me
up to figure out
what I wanted to

(01:28:48):
do. And it was
also giving me
skill sets that I
could have then
apply for the job
applications and
or give me an in
with someone was
once the job
opened up. And if
I was in an
internship or
volunteer
position, I was
basically trained
for the job. So
when I would
instead of having
to hire someone
that had
never been
familiar with
the, you know,
their protocols
and their
procedures, I had
been for months.

(01:29:08):
So it was a
natural
progression
into a position.
But I know, I
know with like
internships, I
did one paid one
through Mote
Marine, it was a
USF Mote Marine,
collab, but it
was very similar
to the REU
program. I always
tell like
students that are
undergrad. So I
said, look
at the REU
program, it is a
paid internship

(01:29:28):
program funded
through the NSF
grants. And I was
like, it's a
great time
because you
get to do a
full research
project, you do a
proposal, you do
the research, you
are basically a
lab check that
entire time, you
go in the
field, and you do
a full poster
presentation and
basically like a
manuscript at the
end. Publishing
is
dependent on, you

(01:29:49):
know, the, the
advisor, but it
gives you a
chance to really
see what research
is from start to
finish and, you
know, determine
if do you like
research? I've
had friends that
have done it and
been like,
research isn't
for me, I rather,
you know, go into
teaching or do
consulting. So I
always say like,
those are the
opportunities
when you can get
paid to do
it, you can
experience what

(01:30:09):
research is like
from a start to
finish
standpoint, and,
and then be able
to come out of
that with a
really good
skill set and
kind of set
yourself up for
these jobs
because you've
also broadened
your network by
just
working with all
these people.
Yeah, it's
amazing. And also
like when you
work for like
when you
volunteer in a
lab, like REU
program or any
other lab, you

(01:30:30):
work on multiple
projects, you
learn how to use
different
instrumentation,
you learn
different
methods of
analysis and
statistics and
all that. And you
really get that
experience. So I
love that. I love
how you you
volunteer. And I
think, you know,
volunteering has
got a bad rap
over the last
decade, because
there's been a
lot of and I call
them like
predatory
organizations
where you have to
pay to do the

(01:30:51):
work for them,
which I don't
like, I really
feel like that is
detrimental to to
not only being a
marine biologist,
but just the work
in general. But I
liked what you
did is
like, look,
you and look, I'm
not saying this
is not easy. You
worked all day in
the field, and
then you go
bartend at
night, like on
the weekends.
That's not easy.
I don't care what

(01:31:11):
anybody says,
that's tiring
stuff. And that
but you did it
because you
loved it, you did
it because you
wanted to do it.
And that was the
one way that you
could do it.
Obviously,
if you could
apply, get an
interview and get
the job right
away, that would
have been great
too. But
sometimes it just
doesn't
happen. For a
lot of us, it
just doesn't
happen.
Volunteering
gives them the
team a chance to
get to know you.
Are you good with

(01:31:31):
the team? Do
you fit in with
the team? Are you
hardworking? That
shows you, you
have a second, a
long term
interview that
just that
shows them
what you can do.
And I think and
shows the passion
going at that
extra little mile
and to put in,
you know, a
number of
hours on
the weekend for a
couple of months
or three or four
months or
whatever they
that might be.

(01:31:51):
And then you get
a job, it's
worth it. And
even if it's not,
at least you got
the experience
and maybe get a
reference from
someone else,
right? That's the
power of
networking and
the power of
putting yourself
out there. And
what was nice is
you didn't have
to pay to do it.
You didn't have
to go away to
do it. It was
right in your
backyard. So that
helped too. I
think that that
was really good.
And then of
course,
showing how how
good you are and
how excited you

(01:32:12):
are to do the
work. And like I
said, working in
the field is
never easy at
all. And so to
show that
you can do it and
you enjoy it, I
think that's
that's really
that's really
helpful. So
that's great. So
let's go back to
masters and
job. Those are
not easy to do
it. We talked
earlier, you
married them
together by, you
know, doing a
project that I

(01:32:32):
assume
was part of
some of the work
that you were
that you were
doing, or maybe a
project that was
going to happen.
Can you just talk
a little bit
about how the
project got
married together
with the masters?
So it was kind of
unintentional. I
applied to the
university,
knowing that
there was a field
lab up in the
region, but

(01:32:53):
didn't
know how it
was gonna work. I
was just going to
make it work.
However, I can,
you know, if I
was like, if I
need to bump down
to part time, or
I was just
gonna figure it
out. Gotcha. But
I really want I
really liked the
program at
Jackson
University. And
I, again, it, I
will say what
drew me in
was white sharks,
you know, that
not not very

(01:33:13):
often you you get
a chance to work
with them. And I
saw it and I was
like, wow. And
you know, I had
been following it
was her son as a
kid, you know,
watching them on
TV and show and I
was like, wow, a
chance to work
with these large
individuals that
I would never get
a chance to even
be near. And
then, you know,
working with this
organization,
where I could
learn so
much from so many
different people

(01:33:33):
and go to school,
I was like, this
this seems too
good to be true.
But I was like,
let me go for it.
So I applied
and I got in. And
I will say with
JU's, they you
don't, you don't
go in with a
project, you
spend your first semester
meeting with
professors and
kind of figuring
out projects, and
what's a good fit

(01:33:53):
for you and who
is taking
students. So that
was also nerve
racking, because
I didn't know if
I was gonna get
the project that
I necessarily,
you know, wanted.
So, but it worked
out because
I, and the main
reason when I was
thinking about
this particular
project and this
university for
grad school is I
really wanted a
data heavy
thesis. So I had
a lot of field
work through my

(01:34:14):
normal work, but
I was more of a
field biologist.
I was doing you
know, some
analysis. But it
was more I'm more
in the field, I'm
in, in shore and
offshore. But the
analysis side, I
could tell was
where I was, I
was lacking and I
needed something
for grad school.
I was like, this
is the time to
kind of bring
that up to make
me more of a well
rounded
scientist. And so with that project, I didn't want to do that.
And so with that
project through

(01:34:35):
what I was using
the O search
data, it is all
tagged data.
So it is all
analyses.
And so it worked
out because the
field time
was more limited
to certain
expeditions
based on
time of year.
But the nitty
gritty of
the thesis
is sitting in
front of a
computer and
learning R code
and you know,
manipulating the

(01:34:55):
tag data and
learning GIS.
And that was what
I wanted.
So it happened to
work out that
what I was
looking for
and what I wanted to do was to work out what I was doing.
And so I was looking for a way to get that kind of a master's kind
of presented
itself at this
university and
kind of gave
me a chance.
And I think
because I had the
field experience
prior that this
was a good
project for me
and kind of gave
me that ability
to get this
project because I

(01:35:15):
most times in a
master's
you're trying to
get that field
experience, but I
already had it.
So this kind of
set me up in a
unique way.
So my work has
nothing to do
with my master's
thesis in
any way.
There's almost no
overlap except
for the
university and my
office is in the
same building.
That is the only
overlap.

(01:35:36):
And I didn't know
they were in the
same building
until I showed up
for orientation.
And I was walking
down the hallway
and I went, oh, I
guess this is my
new office.
That's awesome.
Well, and I think
there's something
to be said too,
when you have all
that field work
experience,
you know, you've
worked at, so I
assume, and you
can correct me if
I'm wrong,
you were probably

(01:35:56):
working at your
job for about
seven or
eight years.
And then when you
started your
master's, is that
what we're
looking at 2016
in and around
that time?
2016, I was
about, I started
technically
in 2018.
So I graduated
the two
years off 2018.
I think it was
like three and a
half,
three years.
Yeah, which is
good, a good
amount of field
experience,
especially if
you're in the
field most of the

(01:36:16):
time in Florida,
you can be in the
field all year
long, not like
here in Ontario,
where if you're
in the field all
year long, you
are miserable for
about four to six
months out of
that year.
But regardless,
you're in the
field, you got
lots of field
experience,
and then you get
to do everything
in front of a
computer, right?
You know,
multiple
monitors, looking
at GIS, looking
at spatial
analysis.

(01:36:36):
Now, again, I say
field work is
hard until you
have to
learn R code.
It's probably,
it's like for
graduate students
to like torture
and watching
graduate students
go through it,
because as I have
in the past and
gone through it
myself, it is
like crying
frustrating
at times.
Like there's
tears. It doesn't
matter
who you are.

(01:36:57):
It doesn't matter
your gender.
You're going to
cry at some point
for that computer
because this code
is not working,
especially I
bought the
spatial analysis
R code book
before I learned
R and I
looked at it.
I'm like this, I
can't, this is
this is a
different
language.
I don't know what
this is.
Like it's it is
hard, right?
I'm a GIS analyst
as well.
And so I learned
a lot on that.

(01:37:18):
And once you
said, oh, yeah, I
got tagged data
like for decades
of work for
white sharks.
That that got my
GIS going like I
was like, okay,
this you're set.
Like you've got a
cool species
obviously iconic
and then being
able to discover
and identify
like, you know,
spatial patterns
that we've
discovered the
last decade of

(01:37:39):
this of this
great white
population that
basically comes
down to
Jacksonville in
the winter.
And then and then
goes is it
Jacksonville as
it come as far
down as
Jacksonville or
is it go to
Carolina's they
go and well, so
they're
overwintering
region ranges
from the
Carolina.
So the North
Carolina,
especially out of
the outer banks
all the way along
Florida into the
Gulf so they can
even go to
the Gulf.
Yeah, the
furthest point

(01:38:00):
and through the
research tag
telemetry is
almost
near Texas.
It's only a
few points.
A lot of them
will hang out
near Louisiana,
but we do see
them all the way.
And recently they
have found out
about 50% of the
tag individuals
that they have
actually make
their way into
the Gulf, which I
didn't know.

(01:38:38):
I mean, we didn't know up until not that long ago. And then as more
tag data, you
know, has become
readily available
and the
technologies have
increased, we
have
better chance.
And now we
realize they're
along Florida all
throughout
the winter.
I mean, the
Carolina's I
mean, they use
that coastline
back and forth
all the time.
And and we don't.
And the thing is,
there's a lot of
research being
done in that New
England and Nova
Scotia and

(01:38:59):
Newfoundland
area.
But this
southeast part of
the United
States, we're
beginning to get
more data on.
And that's kind
of where my my
thesis comes in
is we're
beginning to kind
of get a better
idea of how
they're utilizing
this area and to
kind of
understand their
more fine scale
movements.
And then that we
can begin to
answer these
questions and to
understand how
are they how are
they using
these areas?
What are they

(01:39:19):
doing while
they're here?
Or what are their
diving profiles
look like?
Because we don't
have the
information that
we have here as
they do up
in the north.
Kenzie, that is
so freaking cool.
Like if you think
about like, I
know we're
geeking out here,
but this is so
cool to be like
the white shark,
like Jaws, you
know, everybody's
afraid of it.

(01:39:40):
You know, there's
a whole history
behind it.
We're hitting 50
years of Jaws in
June this year.
And you get to
discover like in
the 50th year of
Jaws, that
there's like what
they're doing in
this area that
really we haven't
known ever, you
know, that is so
cool because, you
know, down
the road.
10 years, 20
years down the

(01:40:00):
road, you're
going to tell
people like,
yeah, I helped
figure this out.
Like I was that
was my master's.
I mean, I my
master's.
I don't I mean,
unfortunately, I
don't have like
amazing data in a
sense that like I
am not answering
all of these like
massively in
question.
But I like to
think that I am a
part of the
stepping stones
and the building
blocks to kind of

(01:40:21):
understanding
their movements
on down here.
And so that's
kind of cool to
kind of be a part
of that story.
And as we learn
more, I can know
that like I
played my
part in that.
So like what you
were saying,
yeah, but I wish
I could answer
some of these
bigger like, you
know, under like
questions that we
can always
asking, you know,
where are
they mating?
You know, what
are they eating
on down there?
Are they
targeting
certain areas?
Are there
hotspots?

(01:40:41):
There's like so
much we
want to know.
And that's like
when you're
talking about
questions, like
my mind just
starts reeling.
I'm like, even
the master's, you
know, my advisor,
he always tells
me he's like real
it in real it.
And he's like,
remember,
remember the
scope of your
master's because
I, I would have
turned it into a
PhD too quickly.
I mind you. I
would I'm trying
to go for a PhD,

(01:41:02):
but I mean, not
at the
university.
They don't have a
PhD, but but he I
was naturally
just turning it
into and I, you
know, the
curiosity there,
which is great.
But again, you
have to like reel
yourself in or
remind yourself,
like focus on
your questions at
hand because when
you have too many
questions, you're
not you're never
going to answer
anything because
you have so many
going on.
You have to like
focus at like the very the

(01:41:23):
foundation, get
that done.
And then if more
projects come out
of that, great.
But let's get the
masters.
Let's get that
that foundation
project done and
then we can go
from there.
It's the
research ADHD.
I think every
student I went
through it.
Every student
goes because
you're like
you're asking all
these questions
like what
about this?
What about this?
Can we figure out
this and then
every supervisor
is like, hold on
a second.
Like let's focus

(01:41:43):
on the on
finishing your
master's.
Then we'll you
know, we'll
discuss other
papers and other
questions.
And I think it's
awesome.
Like it's awesome
to see because
that's when the
passion
hits, right?
That's when you
know, like
research is for
me like research
is is here.
Like I've hit the
jackpot in terms
of what I want to
learn and you
know, what I want
to find out and
what I want to
tell the world
like the story to

(01:42:03):
tell the world.
It is a story is
essentially what
you're saying,
but you're using
math to kind of
figure it out,
you know, and
geolocation to to
figure it out.
So I just
love that.
I think
it's cool.
And and and to be
honest, like
speaking of
storytelling,
you're
doing this.
You're doing a
full time job.
You're doing a
master's and then
you've taken it
upon yourself to
be like, hey,

(01:42:24):
yeah, let's talk
about it.
Let's talk about
to the public.
Like, let's just
go on social
media and I'll
just I'll, you
know, riff on
some videos and
I'll just publish
them so that
people can get to
know one
what I do.
But also what I
love what you
were doing with
your parents back
when you were
four or five
years old
snorkeling in the
keys and being
like, hey, have
you seen this
like, you know,
blue parrotfish?
Like it does.
It eats algae and
it does this.

(01:42:44):
You're telling
that to to
the people.
Obviously, you're
busy with a lot
of things.
What made you
decide to be
like, look, I'm
going to start
talking about not
only the work
that I'm doing,
but also just
science in
general and
marine biology
and ocean in
general.
There's a
few things.
One is more of
just a funnier
reason is because
I always said I

(01:43:05):
love learning.
I think it's just
in all of us
scientists.
But, you know,
we'll be in a
conversation and
someone's talking
about something
and then I know a
fun fact and I'm
like, oh,
fun fact.
And so like I
love just like
talking about
things that I
found out, you
know, if it's
through a paper
or, you know,
news article or,
you know,
journal, like I I

(01:43:26):
love to just
share the
information.
Some, you know,
my friends share
a similar
interest.
And so we always
kind of do this
back and forth.
And I thought
about why not
just do this to
the
everyday public?
And I and I do it
with like my
friends and
family who are
not even in
this field.
And, you know, I
also and I start
chatting and next
thing I know,
like I've given a
full 45 minute

(01:43:46):
lecture on some
random topic.
And I was like,
why don't I just
do this for for
everyone?
You know, what
why don't I like
make this
accessible?
And I, you know,
I think, you
know, I always
felt education is
so important
because it was so
inspiring to me.
And I, you know,
I had teachers
growing up that
made science fun

(01:44:07):
and engaging.
And I always
wanted to kind of
be a part of that
because I feel
like when
science, it can
be boring.
It can be tough.
It can be
frustrating.
But I think when
you make it fun
and engaging and
you get excited
about things,
you're going to
want to
learn more.
And I think
that's so
important is
like, again,
fostering this
curiosity, even
even doesn't have

(01:44:28):
to be about
marine science,
but just in
general, like
just always
questioning and
asking and
looking at the
world and, you
know, through
different eyes
and, you know,
different
perspectives.
So I kind of
really wanted to
one, just have
fun with it, but
also just bring
out fun facts
because, you
know, sometimes I
have a bunch of
fun facts about
random fish that
people have never
heard of and then

(01:44:49):
they get excited
and they're like,
oh, I've never
heard about
what's that fish.
And I'm hoping
that by kind of
getting them
excited and, you
know, showing
them something
that they've
never seen
before, that
they're more
likely to go
research it
themselves or
tell someone else
about it.
Or when they see,
you know, an
article or, you
know, here, you
know, around
town, they'll be
like, Oh, I
actually have a
fun fact
about that.
And then they'll

(01:45:09):
start talking.
So it just helps
spread education
and knowledge,
but I think it's
just, it's so
vital right now.
And I just, and
again, and making
it accessible
because, you
know, marine
science can be so
limiting, just,
you know, certain
groups or, you
know, especially
being around
Florida, like a
lot of people in,
you know, in the
middle of the
United States and
landlocked states
that, you know,
don't have access
to the beach 30

(01:45:29):
minutes
down the road.
And so some of
these marine
science classes
aren't available
because the water
is not there. And
so it's only when
they come down in
these states. But
when with social
media, we have a
way to access the
entire world.
And so it's, it's
always good to
kind of just put
it out there. And
so that was kind
of my thought
process was, I
love talking
about science. I
love educating
people. Why not
do it through

(01:45:50):
social media and
use the Internet
as like the best
educational tool
that there is
right now.
You are preaching
to the choir, my
friend, you are
preaching to the
choir. And I love
that, though. But
I think that's
the thing is it's
fun for you.
Again, it's fun
for you. You're
already doing it
with your family
and friends.
Right. And maybe
after a while,
your family and
friends like,
okay, can do
like, hold your
horses. That's
happened all the
time. My wife

(01:46:11):
will just like
glaze over and be
like, okay,
Andrew, get it
out of your
system and move
on. But that's
the thing. You go
to people like
you don't know
who you're gonna
who you're gonna
do. So is that
what like when
you like, what
was the goal?
Because because
like, let's be
honest, like
social media is
its own thing.
Content is not a thing. It's a thing. It's a thing. It's a thing. It's a thing.It's a thing. It's a thing. It's a thing. It's a thing. It's a thing. It's
content creation
is its own thing.
People make their
living off of
content
creation. Some
even that are
like marine
biology just make

(01:46:32):
like, you know,
they'll have
like, there's
a creator fund
for each platform
and stuff. And
they could make
money off of
this. What
was your goal
when you start,
like you pick
tick tock, right?
Obviously,
like I assume
pandemic tick
tock started to
blow up. You
started to see it
like, Hey, let's
start using
it. It's a fun
platform. What
was the goal when
you first started
was it to

(01:46:52):
get as many
followers as
possible? Was it
get like big,
that kind of
stuff? What was
the goal?
So I mean, it's
natural to want
followers and a
big following,
but that wasn't
the push. That
wasn't the
reasoning behind
it. The followers
would just be an
added bonus to
get the
information
out to a broader
audience. I just
wanted to promote

(01:47:14):
science. I just
wanted to
talk. I wanted
to get it out
there. And I
always worry
about the being
on social. I was
so skeptical
about doing
this for so long.
So I never wanted
someone to think
that I was doing
it strictly for
the money
or to be some
type of
influencer
personality.
That's not the

(01:47:34):
goal. If they
were something
to come up
because of being
on social media,
great, that's
just a bonus. But
that's not the
root of it.
That's not the
reason why I was
doing it. I
wanted to do it
because I
loved it.
And I think, you
know, we have
misinformation
can be spread so
easily. So I want
to be a part of
the person, you
know, people that
are spreading
correct

(01:47:55):
information and
showing
people how to
how to research
how to look for,
you know,
information
that's, you know,
incorrect, or
be able to
question things.
You'd be like,
well, you know,
that sounds a
little odd.
Let me look
this up, you
know, or oh, that
was a that's a
neat fact. Let me
look this up. So
I just
wanted to be
part of the push
to just promote

(01:48:16):
more learning.
And so like the
follower thing,
you know,
I picked
TikTok just
because it was so
easily accessible
to so many people
without
necessarily
having to
have followers,
like if you have
a Facebook or
Instagram, they
usually have to
follow
you for you
to pop up on on
their on their
like page or
their feed. But
with TikTok, they
can follow
you so they
can see more of

(01:48:36):
your stuff, but
your videos just
get sent out to
the world. And so
I think that will
experiment in
front of
everybody. Right?
Yeah. Yeah. And
it's I mean, it's
nerve
wracking knowing
that you're
putting yourself
out there for
millions of
people to
critique and
criticize and,
you know,
question you. And
so you have to

(01:48:57):
like, take that into
consideration.
You're like, are
you prepared
for people to
question you, you
know, or they
might make fun of
you, you know,
for whatever
reason. So you
kind of have
it's like a
mental
preparation. But
also, there was
another part of
it that I thought
it'd be a good
practice for me.
You know, as a
scientist and
educator, I
always feel like
it's important to
be able to relay

(01:49:18):
science to all
audiences. So we
go to
conferences, and
we use all the
scientific
jargon, and we
talk to
people that
are experts in
what we do. And
that's great. But
we need to be
able to take that
to the public,
because if the
public gets
excited, we get
more people
excited. That
means usually
more funding for
us to do
more work.
That's true. So
when more people
know about it,

(01:49:38):
more people are
like, Well, yeah,
I'll donate to
that. Or yeah,
I'm more
likely to help
pay for that. Or
I'm more, you
know, it creates
just a better
system overall.
Yeah. But I
just, I, I
think being able
to also explain
concepts to
experts, to the
general public,
and to children,

(01:50:00):
just makes almost
solidifies
concepts in
your head and
makes you
understand like,
do I actually
really know what
I'm talking
about? I know
that sounds weird
to say, but you
know, you get
almost
regurgitating
some of these
textbook or, you
know, scientific
article
sentences,
because
you're like,
All right, this
is what it says.
And you just say
it, and you state
it. And that's
just the fact.
But it's not
until you're

(01:50:20):
talking to
everyday
people that don't
work in that, I
don't use those
types of terms,
or, you know,
might not know
the anatomy of
sharks and
fish. And so
you're talking
about, you know,
cartilaginous,
you know, fish
and a plasma
branks, you know,
looking at the
highway, highway
arch, they
don't know what
that means. So
being able to
take those higher

(01:50:40):
level concepts
that you've
become an expert
in, and then
relay them to
the general
public in a way
that they can
understand and
get excited about
was kind of also
that push where it's
like, it also
helps me practice
as a scientist to
really understand
the concepts that
I'm learning, and
also researching.
So there were so
many points to
it, but none of
it really ever
came from, I want
to get famous,
and I want more

(01:51:00):
followers. That
was never, no, I
mean, I don't
even have that
many followers.
And that's fine.
I just love doing
it. And I think
that if, and I
always
thought, is
my duty as a
scientist to
educate people
and put science
out there for
everyone. And so
I thought, you
know, if I am
able to inspire
or educate a

(01:51:21):
handful of
people, even one
person, if one
person got
inspired,
inspired by a
video I made,
then I have done
my duty as an
educator, as a
scientist to, you
know, help future
generations or,
you know, inspire
someone else to
kind of learn
more or
pursue a career.
I love that. I
love that. And to
kind of push back
on your like, I
don't have many
followers. I hear

(01:51:43):
this a lot from a
lot of people,
right? It's
like, I don't
know. And I say
the same thing. I
don't have a lot
of followers.
Somebody told me
this one time,
because like,
when I first
started the
podcast, I
would get
like, maybe 10
downloads, you
know, off the
bat, and you're
like, Oh,
nobody's
listening to my
stuff. Then I get
like 50
downloads,
I'm still
complaining,
because I, you
know, hear other
Joe Rogan gets a
million and all
this, and
everybody thinks
that, Oh, I

(01:52:03):
should be getting
that.
Somebody told me
this, if you put
like, if you have
100 followers,
100 downloads,
and you put 100
people in a
classroom, that's
the standing room
only in a
classroom, right?
Like, that's,
that's a huge
amount of people
when you're
presenting in
front of a
classroom, like
in person. I'm
looking at your,
your, your
profile here on
TikTok, you have
at this point,

(01:52:23):
you have 691. And
I'm sure that's
increasing
followers. That's
a lecture hall.
That's almost two
lecture halls.
That's a huge
lecture hall of
people that
you're teaching
each and every
time you post
that could
potentially see
it. And if
you're on
TikTok, as you
mentioned, the
amount is
probably more
than that, that
are actually
seeing your, your
videos, right?
Because it's not
just to your
followers, it's

(01:52:43):
to everybody, you
know, you just
never know who
you're being
presented to. So
I want you to
think about that
way too. I want
everybody think
about that. Like
the audience here
who are
listening, I was
like, you never
know who's going
to see you. You
never know, like,
what impact you
might have. And I
love that, that
the thought of
like, if I can
just get one
person to really
get excited about
the ocean, who
knows what that
person will do
with that

(01:53:04):
information,
you just,
never know. You
never know who's
listening. You
never know what
they're going to
do. And I think
that's the power
of being a
creator and, and
talking about
stuff. And we all
get criticism. We
all get bots. We
all get people
who take
messages, you
know, politically
and all this kind
of stuff. And
they, they don't
know really what
they're talking
about. I had a
guy the other day

(01:53:24):
on my, on, I
forget what
platform it was,
but talking about
the importance
of, I did an
episode a couple
of weeks ago,
talking about the
importance of
talking about the
ocean, how
important it is
to talk to your
friends
and family.
As you know,
right? You do it,
you do the same
thing. And the
guy was like,
well, who cares
about the ocean?
Like, there are
so many homeless
people in
California. And
I'm like, okay,
yeah, totally get

(01:53:44):
it. Like, that's
not what we're
talking about
here. Like
completely
different issues,
you know, but I
get it. Like,
it's, there's
other people have
other issues. But
the, you know,
and, and you just
never know who
you're getting to
watch it, what
they're going to
comment. And you
just have to like
answer those
properly. And,
and, you know, I,
I like to try and
be nice to
everybody.
There's some, I'm
a little more
aggressive with.

(01:54:05):
But every
once in a while,
you know, there's
people who are
just genuinely
worried about
other things in
the world. And
you're like, I
get it. I, I
responded. I was
like, yeah, I
hope you do
something about
it. Like, I would
love to hear. I'd
love to see what
you create online
to help with that
homeless. Because
that's obviously
something that's
important, but
not what we're
talking about
here. So I
appreciate the
comment. But, you
know, thank you.
Yeah, but that's,
you know, but,
but I've also had

(01:54:27):
a lot of people
who have changed
their lives
because of it.
They've either
gone to do a PhD
or they've gone
to change and
start an
organization and
all that kind of stuff.
So you just never
know who's going
to listen. And
it's also cool.
Some of the
stories you
cover, we just
talked about this
before we press
record and I hope
it's okay to talk
about this. But
one of your
recent, I guess
it was a series

(01:54:47):
of episode, you
did a couple of
parts. They gave
like four or five
parts of this.
Could you talk
about this recent
one? It got a lot
of views, like
almost 40,000
views on that
first video. What
was the scenario
and why did you
feel the need to
comment?
So it's all so
ridiculous. And
it always makes
me laugh. What
gets popular on

(01:55:09):
the internet. And
it's always this
just strange
thing. And it's
always the one
thing you least
expect. You know,
I was I think I
was telling you
before this, the
videos that I put
the time and
effort to, you
know, do their
background
research to find
the good images,
then to record
and then to edit,
you know, their
hours of time and
effort. You know,
they get views, I
get some
comments. I'm
like, Yeah, it's
awesome. The one
that I really

(01:55:29):
wake up in the
morning, do a
response
video to.
That took me five
minutes maximum
to do gets the
most views. But
the video was,
and I must date
this, this video,
this statement is
fake. It was a
created
statement. But at
the time, I
wasn't sure.
Right. So this
woman online

(01:55:49):
stated that she
was diving with
sharks and was
wearing a sequin
bikini and had an
encounter with
the shark. And
the internet lost
its mind. You
know, there's a
lot of people
that I was and I
was I was kind of
happy to
see that.
Everyone was
like, What are
you doing? You
would you should
never do that.
You look like a
giant fish. So I
was happy to see
that people were
recognizing,
Yeah, that's
probably a bad

(01:56:10):
idea. So I just
commented one
stating, Yes,
everyone saying
this is a bad
idea. Yes, it is.
You know, the
sequins reflect
the light and
they can mimic
fish scales. And
when you're
diving with
things that eat
fish, you don't
want to look like
that. And I'm not
saying just
because she was

(01:56:30):
wearing that,
that initiative, you know,
she did that fake
interaction.
Right. But you
don't want to put
yourself in any
way, shape or
form in harm or
in a way that
could create or
allow the
interaction to
potentially
happen. I'm gonna
say it that way.
Yeah. So you just
want to be
cognizant of what
you're doing.
Yeah. So I stated

(01:56:51):
that one. Just
don't wear that.
I would suggest
not wearing that.
If you if you
really want to
wear it, wear a
wetsuit or wear,
you know, a sun
shirt, wear
something that
takes away that
shimes. I
always say the
same thing with
jewelry does the
same thing. You
know, people go
swimming in
jewelry and I've
actually had more
closer
interactions with
barracuda than I
have with sharks

(01:57:12):
and I've swam
with hundreds of
sharks. But the
few barracuda
they, you know,
again, I
mentioned my
bracelet keeping
it on and you're
sitting there
holding it
because that
little bit of
shine kind of
looks like a fish
scale. And again,
even if it's not
necessarily
looking like a
fish, it's
something
different in the
environment that
something is
gonna be curious
about and then go
investigate it to
figure out

(01:57:32):
what is this? So
you don't you
don't want to
draw that attention that
that's not the
attention you're
looking for about
being in the
ocean. And you
know, most times
for shark badges,
we're going to
find sharks, but
most people that
are swimming in
the ocean aren't
wanting, they
don't want to
find them. So I
made the video
and I wanted to
make it a few
part series. I
wanted to want to
address the
video, but then I

(01:57:52):
wanted to bring
up some good
points because it
gave the perfect
timing to talk
about safe swim
practices. You
know, when you're
going on the
water, you have
to, you know,
you're going
into another
environment,
you're going into
basically the
home of all these
animals,
including sharks,
and you have to
be aware of what
you're doing and
you want to make
sure you are
staying safe. You

(01:58:13):
know, the reason
we have those
flags of the
beach and we have
lifeguards and we
have all these
signage, you
know, just
explaining the
area is for
information to
make sure that
you are safe as a
swimmer when you
when you make the
decision to get
in the water. And
so I talked
about, you know,
not swimming near
a fishing
fishermen, you
know, one, you
don't want to get
caught up in the
line. They also
have active bait.

(01:58:33):
That bait is in
the water, trying
to attract
everything in
that area. The
last thing you
want to do is be
near something
that's being
attracted to that
area. So, so you
don't so that's
just unsafe and
they kind of fall
on the same
lines, peers,
people are
actively fishing
all along those
peers, you don't
want to get
caught up in the
lines and also
there's so much

(01:58:54):
fish in the water
that again, it's
attracting
everything and
anything that air
to that region,
you don't want to
be there. And
then marinas,
especially,
you know,
a lot of people
don't think,
well, people are
not fishing at
marinas, but a
lot of fishermen
come off their
boats and fillet
their fish and
throw in the
carcasses. And
because after
days and days of
this fish and
sharks and other
marine animals
realize this is
an area for easy

(01:59:15):
food. So they're
more likely to
hang out there
and be in that
area trying to
get free food. If
you are to get in
that water, they
when they hear at
splash, they're
not going to be
like, Oh, wait,
that's a person I
don't want. They
see that they're
expecting what
they've expected,
you know, every
day that it's a
fish carcass and
they can get in the water.
And they can eat
it. So you can,
you don't want to
put yourself in a
situation that

(01:59:35):
could lead to a
bad encounter.
And then again,
just like the
sandbars and one
that a lot of
people don't
realize is that
sandbars are not
a safe place to
be. You know, if
it's really
shallow and your
ankle deep and
you can see
everything around
you, that's fine.
But also getting
to that sandbar,
it usually drops
off and there's a
dip and the same
thing, it falls

(01:59:55):
off. And usually
in those channels
are a lot of bait
fish runs. And
what usually
follow bait fish,
larger fish,
and sharks.
Again, you don't
want to put
yourself in that
situation while
you are in the
middle of a bait
fish run while
something is
actively feeding.
They're not
targeting you,
they're targeting
that fish, but
you are now
caught up in
that. And that's
usually when
those encounters
happen. So I

(02:00:16):
really wanted to
highlight these
examples and been
like, Hey, you
know, this is a
bad scenario. I'm
glad it was fake.
I'm glad she's
okay. But let's
put out some
reminders of when
you're in the
ocean, you are in
a new environment
and you have to
be aware of your
surroundings.
And also,
talk to local
people, a lot of
people that go
and travel, you
know, there are
certain areas I
tell you not to

(02:00:36):
swim because, you
know, again,
people could be
filleting
carcasses and,
you know, putting
these in the
water. There
could just be a
lot of just fish.
You just never
know. And you
want to make sure
when you're
traveling and
you're going
swimming in an
area that's not a
common swimming
area that you
know, that area
is okay. And
there's nothing
in that area that
could create a
scenario that
would be
negative. So I
just thought that
was a good time

(02:00:56):
to kind of bring
up these points.
And again, and I
was so happy that
those videos
actually,
did well. But it
was funny that
they took five
minutes to make
up just being
like, Hey, don't
do this, do this.
And you know, I'm
glad she's safe.
But just don't
wear a
sequin bikini.
That's just
that's just life
lesson here. Just
don't see in the

(02:01:17):
ocean. But that's
what I find so
ironic, I think
with a lot of
people who, when
we do stuff like
this, when we do
create content
and we're
scientists and we
want to prepare,
we want to make
sure that one,
we're factually
correct, we
double check, we
confirm. And then
we present
something that's
interesting. So
we spend a lot of
time putting
together videos,
whether they be

(02:01:37):
three minute
videos, 10 minute
videos, 20 minute
videos, whatever
that might be.
And then they
never really take
off the way we
hope that they
would. You know,
you might get
some views here.
You get
consistently good
amount of views.
But then every
once in a while,
you'll get one
that's just like,
Hey, like, I just
want to comment
on this. And then
I just want to
like, see what
happens. And all
of a sudden, 40K.
You know, views
all of it. You're
like, what are
you kidding me? I

(02:01:58):
spent five
minutes talking
about that. But I
think the thing
is, is like, what
we don't
understand
sometimes a
scientist is that
and even
communicators
that people just
want, like
relevant content
that's like you.
That's that's
different. But
it's also just
simple, simple
things that we
need to say,
like, you know,
you and I, if we
had talked about
this, just the
two of us just
being like, or
other scientists
around just been

(02:02:18):
like, yeah, that
was not what I
would have done.
You know, I would
not have worn
like a swim
trunks that were
sequence, like
probably not the
best idea. But to
some people, like
they want to know
more about like
why it's not a
good like what,
like what's the
problem with
that, you know,
other than can't
be very
comfortable, to
be honest, like a
sequence bikini
or any kind of
being sweet that sequence.
And so like, you

(02:02:39):
just, you get
that like you
start and then
all of a sudden
people are like,
Oh, that's simple
information.
Okay, I can
digest that, you
know, no jargon,
no facts, it's
just, hey, just
probably not a
better good idea,
set it in a nice
way. You know,
you're very calm,
you had your
coffee with you.
I think that was
coffee, coffee
mug with you.
You're just like,
Okay, I'm just gonna, I got a comment on this.
Like it was, it

(02:03:00):
was a really like
simplistic,
informative,
entertaining kind
of video that I
think people just
get, get behind,
right? Sometimes
I think we go for
so complicated
that this, the
simple videos are
necessary to
really, I guess
like, because he
had a good story
to tell too, but
it's like, it
just hits people,
you know, that
emotion. I just

(02:03:20):
love, love that
aspect of it.
Right. You just,
you just never
know what's going
to go, you know,
especially in
TikTok, you just,
it can take off. He's a great person. He's a great person. He's a great person. He's a great person. You know, and I think that's what I want to say that I think like, you know, you're going tobe very, very nice, very nice. I love it. It's a really, very, very nice. I think it's a great place to see people. You know, I think it's a very nice place to be, you know, you're going to
within like
minutes and
you're just like,
"What the heck
happened?" It's
awesome. But I
love how
you did that
story and it was
a number part and
it was just, it
got good views
all the way
through.
And I just love
that aspect. So

(02:03:41):
as we kind of
wrap up here, the
science
communication, I
feel like
it's never going
to go away from
you. Something
that you've
really done. What
do you
want to do?
Like this is kind
of the, you're
just scratching
the surface right
now, I feel. Do
you have any
plans for science
communication?
Something that
you want to be
able to
accomplish, try
to manifest
and put it out
there for us. So

(02:04:02):
a few things.
One, looking at a
PhD to kind of
continue
to, you know,
to go more into
science and I
would love to go
into academia to,
again, to kind of
continue that
science
communication,
you know, in the
college
classroom. And I
also would like
to be able to
film my journey
and also like
with this

(02:04:22):
podcast, you
know, with the
other people
you've
interviewed,
you know, you
show their
journey and
everyone's are
either different,
but there's
always so
there's
similarities and
people might be
able to connect
and be like,
"Wow, okay, you
know, I didn't
get a job right
away and neither
did she, but
she's doing this.
So, you know,
it's
possible for me."
So there's that
aspect. So
definitely a PhD
and being able to
show the journey

(02:04:43):
and show the
research and
again, just show
research that
most people might
not ever get a
chance to
see or didn't
even know existed
and get people
excited. But
with, in the
meantime, I mean,
the PhD
search is a
daunting one.
I've been working
for hours on top
of everything
else. I was, you
know, in
between, I'm
like looking at
universities and,

(02:05:03):
you know, looking
at finding
professors, but
it's, it normally
tells you how
hard it is to
really find
someone that
matches your
research
interests.
Yeah. That
also will give
you a chance to
broaden your
skill set and get
you a chance to,
you know,
work with
something that
you may have
worked before or,
you know,
continue working
with what you're
working
with. But,
but, you know, I,

(02:05:23):
with my, with my
white sharks
stuff, like I
don't always have
to do white
sharks. I
like the
shark stuff, but
I would like to,
you know, expand
on it, work
another species
or, you know, I
like the tagging
and
telemetry stuff.
So maybe continue
that with
something
different and
then just hone in
the skill set,
but use it for,
you know,
variety of
animals and I can
learn about
different
behaviors. So
there's that. But

(02:05:45):
in the meantime,
I'm up for an
election. So in
the, in Florida,
we have Florida
Marine Science
Educators
Association. So
it's an, it's an
association for
all the educators
that teach marine
science. I mean,
things for all
levels. I think
primarily it's
more like middle
school and high
school teachers
in it. Yeah. But
I'm up for the
Northeast
Regional Director
position. And I
feel like I have

(02:06:05):
a pretty good
chance because
I'm the only
person on the
ballot for that.
So I'm so far,
nobody else, but
we just get to
go. So, I mean, I
think there's no
one else running
up against me. So
I think I have a
pretty good
chance. Yeah. But
a friend of mine,
Chelsea Shaw,
she's the
President-elect.
So she's starting
this, this coming
year. She reached
out to me. We

(02:06:26):
both had worked
together in the
past. And she'd
asked me if I
wanted to be a
part of this.
And, you know,
part of me was a
little nervous
being like, do I
add something
else to my plate?
Yeah. But it's
education. And
I'm like, I can
spin this
into my TikTok.
And I already do
a lot of
education
outreach events
personally,
myself. So I was
like, this will
just be an
extension of that
and kind of give
me more chances

(02:06:47):
or, you know, be
able to reach a
bigger audience
in the educator
circle. And so
they just
basically, I will
be helping
facilitate events
in the area,
putting out
newsletters about
events that are
retained in
marine science or
education in the
area, you know,
facilitating
conferences or
just group
meetups to make

(02:07:07):
sure that you
know, anyone in
the area. And
then it also kind
of helps me in a
way to have more
of a board and
leadership role
that can, again,
get me new
experiences in
that. So that's
kind of like my,
my short term and
long term goals
and what's
currently kind of
going on to
continue this. So
even though I'm a

(02:07:28):
researcher, the
education part,
obviously, is
so important to
me. So this
educator
association kind
of gives me that
chance to do it
on a bigger and
again, at a
professional
level, on top of
just the fun
TikToks. But I
can also use my
TikToks in this
and promote both
the association
and just talk

(02:07:49):
about everything.
And I think
everything is so
linked together
that I, I feel
like this was a
good move. And I
hope that people
can benefit from
this. And I hope
that I can bring
something new to
the table.
And that they,
you know, I can
open the doors
for some people
or get people
together that are
like minded and
making, you know,
again, help the
Northeast Florida
portion, you

(02:08:09):
know, of Florida
to get just
excited about
marine science
and get more
people involved.
I love it. I
agree with you. I
think it's
working. I think
you're doing it
and you're
getting bigger
and bigger
things. And I
just love it. You
know, this has
been awesome to
have you on the
podcast. This is
the first
definitely not
last time I'd
like to have you
on the podcast.
I'd love to have
you back.
And as you do
more research, as

(02:08:30):
you do more
science
communication,
whether that be
through TikToks,
whether it be
through like a
regional area and
having influence
on how people,
how kids are
being educated. I
think it's
wonderful to be
part of all
that aspect.
Because I think
as as scientists,
we have this this
responsibility,
not only to do
really good
research and
really good
science and
conservation, we
also have that
ability with part

(02:08:51):
of the
conservation is
to really connect
with people.
And I think
you're doing that
in a fantastic
way. It's
obviously
working, whether
you're talking
about sequenced
bikinis or you're
talking about
evolutionary
advantages that
fish can have. I
just love it. I
want to thank you
so much for
coming on
the show.
And, you know, if
people want to
get a hold of
you, your TikTok
is at Ken dot

(02:09:12):
C's. So Ken Z's,
but Ken dot C's
will put the link
in the show
notes. Is there
any other way
that you want
people to get a
hold of you or?
In case TikTok
gets banned for
whatever reason,
I'm currently in
the United States
and I know we're
all the ones
dealing with it.
I'm on Blue Sky.
And I think
there's another
it's called
Skylight Social,

(02:09:33):
the new one that
just popped up.
I just added it's
linked to Blue
Sky, so they're
kind of
connected. I will
be also starting
a educational
like Instagram,
same all the same
handles.
I can't can dot
C's or Ken dot
C's or Ken dash
C's. So you can
follow me on all
the platforms on
that way.
I'll put all
those links in
the show notes
and I want to

(02:09:54):
thank you again,
Kenzie, for
coming on the
podcast. It's
been great. Thank
you for having
me. It was a
great time.
Thank you,
Kenzie, for
joining me on
today's episode
of the How to
Protect the Ocean
podcast and
sharing your
story with the
audience. It was
great to be able
to hear how you
started, where
you're ending up
now and where
you're going to
go in the future
and your goals.
And I think it's
amazing. I can't
wait to see what
you come up with.
I can't wait to
have you back on
the podcast to

(02:10:15):
talk more about
sharks, more
about fisheries,
more about marine
biology and
science
communication.
It's all stuff
that we love to
talk about here
on the podcast. I
think it's really
interesting just
from a personal
standpoint, our
paths have been
very similar just
at different
times. I'm older
than her, much
older than her.
And we've had
very similar sort
of experiences
learning GIS and

(02:10:35):
working right
after university
and going back
and doing
graduate school.
So we have that
experience and we
have that field
experience.
They were able to
do a master's
where we're
looking at more
data intense
masters and
research compared
to field intense
masters and
research. And so
I think it's
really cool that
we have that
similar path.
Obviously,
science
communication
path as well. We
share. So it was

(02:10:55):
really great to
connect with her
on that.
And I just love
to hear that type
of story and to
know that, you
know what, not
everybody has a
unique path. I
mean, this is
unique in her own
right. But it's
very similar to a
lot of us who are
coming out and
doing more
science
communication. I
just love to see
that and enjoying
it. Not having
like, you know,
crazy goals of
earning a ton of
money becoming an
influencer, just
educating for one

(02:11:16):
person so that
they can
understand the
ocean a little
bit better. And
that's made her
day. I just love
that aspect. You
know, just
keeping it real,
keeping it, you
know, just right
in front of you
and just being
like, I just want
to talk about that.
I'm going to do
it anyway. I
might as well do
it on a platform
where people can
listen. And if
they're looking
for that type of
resource, they've
got it. So I'm
going to put the
links to Kenzie's

(02:11:36):
TikTok to her new
Instagram is
coming out to
blue sky in the
show notes. Check
it out. And I'd
love to hear your
comment on her
career. You know,
are you following
a similar path?
Do you want to
follow a similar
path? Hit me up
on Instagram at
how to protect
the ocean. Or you
can hit me up in
the comments. If
you're watching
this on YouTube,
and I would love
to hear your
thoughts about
all of this. So
thank you so
much, Kenzie, for your time.

(02:11:57):
Thank you so much for joining us.
And thank you for
joining us on
today's episode
of the How to
Protect the Ocean
podcast. I'm your
host, Andrew
Lewin from the
True North Strong
and Free. Have a
great day. We'll
talk to you next
time and happy
conservation.

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