December 13, 2024 • 46 mins
Allison Freeman is the visionary behind Attuned Pathways, a support group for neurodivergent parents most of which are raising neurodivergent children. She is the first person that I know of in the world to run a group like this.
She joins us to explore the unique landscape of support (and the lack of) for neurodivergent parents. Our conversation reveals the underrepresented challenges ND parents face, spotlighting the relief and understanding offered by Allison's vibrant community.
We discuss the transformative power of parents recognizing their own neurodivergence, and how such awareness can revolutionize family dynamics, offering a deeper, more compassionate support system for their children.
As the holiday season approaches, we also tackle the stressors that can arise during family gatherings. The invaluable support provided by Allison's Attuned Pathways emerges as a beacon during these times, offering a sanctuary for brainstorming solutions, sharing, learning, and growth.
About Allison Freeman
Allison’s journey into therapy and coaching is rooted in her belief that deep healing for neurodivergent individuals happens in community. As a neurocomplex human with AuDHD raising two high sensitive, neurodivergent children, she’s learned that the most transformative growth comes not just from individual work but from being in the presence of others who share our experiences, creativity, and depth. See more about Allison and the groups she offers at https://attunedpathways.podia.com
Or see her on IG: @attunedpathways
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Listened to in over 140 countries, Hypnotize Me is the podcast about hypnosis, transformation, and healing. Certified hypnotherapist and Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Dr. Liz Bonet, discusses hypnosis and interviews professionals doing transformational work
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Liz (00:01):
My interview today is with Allison Freeman.
She created a community called Attuned
Pathways where neurodivergent parents can
go to get support and not just support as
in reading stuff or many courses or that
type of thing, but actual, live, meaningful
(00:23):
community support, like these group calls,
where they can really brainstorm and work
through what's going on with them as
parents, as they navigate parenthood as a
neurodivergent parent, which is different
than navigating parenthood as a more
neurotypical parent, regardless of whether
(00:47):
your child is neurotypical or
neurodivergent.
Allison had emailed me to let me know about
this community that she's built and I
immediately read the email and thought, oh
my God, I've got to interview her and more
people need to know about this.
This is so valuable.
There are support groups for parents of
neurodivergent children that I've seen, but
(01:08):
I have not ever seen before a support group
for neurodivergent parents, and that is her
focus.
Now she does say very clearly that
neurodivergent quote unquote is a very
loose term, it doesn't need to be anything
officially diagnosed and during the
interview, near the end, she tells about
the type of thoughts you may be having that
(01:30):
are cues of maybe.
This is a community for me, so that you can
check it out Now.
I identify as highly sensitive, meaning all
kinds of sensory stuff is processed
differently for me.
I'm more sensitive to light, sounds,
textures, clothing oh my gosh.
(01:50):
I can't even tell you how many struggles
I've had with clothing smells, oh man.
Yeah, we talk about mother-in-law's near
the end of the interview and it's like
there was this one Christmas where we were
driving up to my brother-in-law's house and
we were taking my mother-in-law with us and
I asked my husband could you please ask her
(02:12):
not to wear perfume?
Gives me a headache.
We're gonna be in the car for 14 hours.
It gets really awful for me and of course
she wore perfume.
I ended up with like a 10 hour headache or
something.
Love her these days, but believe me, that
was a tough car ride for me.
That's just one example of many, many, many
(02:34):
things that HSPs and autistic people deal
with in terms of sensory sensitivities.
Sensory sensitivities is on one leg of the
triangle that's needed to diagnose autism.
You've got to qualify for all three legs
and I don't.
So I'm not autistic myself, but I do have
(02:57):
the sensory sensitivities and often people
will have the sensory sensitivities, not
really know what highly sensitive person is
HSP and think that they're autistic.
Sometimes I have to clarify that for them
when they come in for an adult autism
diagnosis.
And, just so you know, I only do adults
over 18 for adult autism evaluations and
(03:20):
there's two levels of that.
So one is a far more formal level which
someone could use that report to apply for
disability.
That takes a lot more time as well.
But I also offer an assessment session,
quote-unquote, where we meet for 90 minutes
to two hours and we're reviewing the
criteria of autism and and whether someone
(03:41):
meets it based on their life experiences.
What they've been through in the past and
currently is all taken into account and I
give my professional opinion and it can be
very validating for someone either way
actually to say, okay, yes, I meet criteria
for autism or I don't.
I am private pay, so none of that shows up
(04:02):
on your insurance records, particularly if
you don't want it to.
There's some downsides that can happen
sometimes.
When someone has a diagnosis of autism in
their records it's a whole other episode
and I've actually recorded it, so you can
go listen to that one, search it up,
because I don't know the number off the top
of my head.
All right, let's jump into hearing from
(04:24):
Allison and how she came up with this
wonderful community and what it offers
parents.
Hi, allison, welcome to the Hypnotize Me
podcast.
Allison (04:36):
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Dr. Liz (04:39):
Yeah, I'm so glad that you agreed to be
here, because I think there's some well
needed information that you're to be here,
because I think there's some well-needed
information that you're going to let our
audience know.
So we're just going to jump in to that.
Why don't you give us some background about
how you decided to be a therapist and then
(05:00):
how you got into autism support, all of
that good stuff?
Allison (05:05):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
So big question there.
But I my my path was really something that
was a felt sense, you know really from,
from really, when I was younger I always
had an interest in people and human
psychology and so I was funneled there,
(05:27):
naturally, like so many of us are.
But I actually started my career as a
school counselor.
So the first 13 years after graduating with
(05:49):
my school counseling degree I was in an
elementary school and that's where I really
started seeing the need for neurodivergent
support and it would start for me at the
school level noticing the challenges that
were chronic.
There were so many patterns in children
that were really high masking and those
would trickle into the family.
So it was kind of a combination of an
(06:11):
interest there, okay, and that led me into
I needed more freedom.
So being in the school system, you're
really bound by a lot of those system,
those system, I guess, boundaries or just a
(06:32):
lot of that.
You know we've got to do it one way.
There's not a whole lot of resources to go
deeper and to support these kids and
families to the level that I really wanted
to.
So I actually went back to school and I
added on my clinical licensure and then I
left the school system and now that is
where my work is primarily.
(06:54):
I work with either late diagnosed autistic
and ADHD clients or adolescents who are
high masking or adolescents who are high
masking.
So that's kind of yeah, how I was funneled
there.
I myself I am an ADHD, adhd and autistic
therapist and mother of an ADHD son who was
(07:15):
in middle school.
Dr. Liz (07:30):
Okay, great.
And when you say late diagnosed, you're
referring to an adulthood.
Yes, anything after school age, okay, so
like after 18, basically in the in the us
we run up into 17.
Allison (07:34):
18 is when kids graduate from high school
yes, that is, that is how we conceptualize
that.
It's almost like you, a second phase of
life into that early, early adulthood.
So anytime after they're really yeah, and
that can be a wide span of years that some
people will will discover that in
themselves.
Dr. Liz (07:53):
Yeah, and when?
Did you discover it yourself, or were you
diagnosed as a kid A little?
Allison (07:58):
bit of both.
So ADHD was discovered in school for me and
the big thing that was noticed was
inattention.
It was something that I began to notice as
I was a little older, getting into
secondary school and then others around me.
I think it impacted.
I think it impacted me to a level that the
(08:20):
adults noticed that was the key for being
diagnosed there.
They had to notice that my potential wasn't
being met and that's when they took me in
for testing and I met that clinical
threshold and it was helpful to a degree.
I think it informed teachers and my parents
and they were able to accommodate me a bit
(08:41):
better.
But it was not the whole picture.
There were still a lot of pieces that were
kind of a misalignment, I would say for me,
and that was something I had to figure out.
I wasn't diagnosed with autism until I was
35.
Dr. Liz (08:57):
35.
Okay, so that's late.
Yes, yeah, and how did that come about?
Allison (09:04):
That was a whole self, self exploration,
self discovery experience and I think I had
a little bit of a privilege there honestly
just being being so exposed to or immersed
in the world of high masking autism.
It's its own thing.
Dr. Liz (09:23):
You know, it's not.
Allison (09:24):
it's not quite the same as the
stereotypical autism that people have been
learning about over the last couple of
decades.
It is its own thing, and so working with my
son definitely was the beginning of it,
where I, as we, were supporting him, I had
these moments of well, but I did that, you
know, like hold on, I don't are we sure.
(09:46):
And then it was it was through therapy, my
own therapy, that I was able to have
patterns reflected back to me.
So a combination of, of, of some luck, you
know, being exposed to the populations that
could mirror, mirror those things in myself
back to me.
Dr. Liz (10:03):
Got it, got it, yeah.
Mirror those things in myself back to me
Got it, got it, yeah.
And I have quite a few parents that come in
that contact me because I do just adult
autism evaluations I don't do childhood and
often people will contact me as adults
saying, hey, my kid was just diagnosed and
I want to know if I'm autistic too, because
(10:24):
I see all these similarities in me.
Allison (10:28):
Yes, yes, it is a pattern, for sure, and
that's very similar to what I notice in my
practice as well, and I think that's so
important to that we listen to that we so
important to that we listen to that we that
(10:49):
we are able to tune into, turn inward and
do exactly what you just described.
Yes, slow it down, be with what you're
noticing, get curious and then seek out
some information outside of just yourself.
I think that is a huge, huge piece.
It's so worthwhile.
Dr. Liz (11:05):
Yes, yeah, it is, it really is, and I think
when people identify that, parents identify
it.
I think the support can also change for the
child.
Like the child's experience of support is
actually what I'm trying to say Like the
(11:25):
actual support can change too.
Right, but I tend to assume that people are
empathetic parents and both my kids laugh
at that because they're like no, most
people are not empathetic, most parents are
not like you and I'm like well, you know, I
don't know.
I guess I like to assume the best of people
that they're going to support their kids no
(11:46):
matter what, but I think that I don't know.
There's some qualitative change in there If
the child knows oh my, my mom or my dad are
autistic too and they just didn't know it
before this.
So I think there is a different experience
of that as a child, I would assume.
(12:08):
What do you think?
Allison (12:09):
Absolutely.
I think that's so important and even having
that as a an important reframe, because for
me and I think a lot of the time when we
are trying to really support our children
and we're doing it out of sometimes, it's
this skill we don't even realize is unique
(12:32):
to us as neurodivergent people, which is,
you know, really like hyper-empathy and
attunement, where we're really tuned into
our children and we see things, we have a
sight that is sometimes beyond what
neurotypical parenting can look like, right,
and so we we noticed these things that may
fly under the radar for others and it turns
(12:55):
out okay.
So, yeah, my child has what we call low
support needs, autism possibly and it is
something that's a little bit more nuanced
to catch and you're having to be their
biggest advocate in those situations.
You know, if they are in these places like
compliance based systems and the school
(13:15):
system, right, yes, those needs are
misaligned, the needs the school system has
misaligned with what the needs of the child
are, because compliance and that
flexibility and all of the approaches we
really need to have for neurocomplex kiddos,
it doesn't really, you know, it's not
something we have right now.
So, as you were the parent doing that
advocacy work for your child.
(13:37):
I mean, I remember just this really intense
pull between wanting and needing and
knowing I needed to be there for my child
and I saw his needs and I saw the things
that needed to be tweaked or accommodated
and it was simple to me.
And then I would get pushback from the
school right and that pushback would
(13:59):
trigger all of this internalized shame and
ableism and all of these things.
You know, you're taught don't rock the boat,
be a good girl, right, we need to make sure
that we are being compliant.
It would just flare all of that up.
But when we talk about bringing in or
weaving in the possibility of our own
(14:21):
highly masked autistic identity, there is a
easier we have an easier time there
deconstructing some of that internalized
shame, internalized ableism, getting really
introspective and showing up with more
fervor and more confidence for our child.
(14:42):
As we're broadening confidence for our
child, as we're broadening our entire
perspective, this becomes less laser
focused on my singular child's needs and it
moves into this global space.
So yeah, absolutely so.
To that point, I think it is incredibly
worthwhile to slow down and be curious
about that in yourself, and the reframe
would be it is going to only deepen that
(15:06):
support and help you with clarity as you're
navigating how to do it.
Dr. Liz (15:10):
Yes, absolutely Okay, great, I'm glad to
hear that you see it a similar way as I do,
because often I will see parents just not
understand, will see parents just not
understand.
I'm just going to put it very simply.
So I'm in several Facebook groups of
parents of autistic children and they're
(15:34):
they'll post questions where they're
assuming that the child is doing something
out of obstinance, let's say, versus like I
don't know if they had a deeper
understanding of that, and that's always
the goal is.
I think they're wanting a deeper
understanding of that.
That's why they're posting the question and,
(15:55):
honestly, the communities are great that I
belong to about providing that for them.
But it's like, with a deeper understanding
of that, then that negative bent on the
child, I think, dissolves.
So instead of feeling like, oh, this child
is doing this to bug me or because they
(16:16):
don't want to do something, or they're just
being obstinate, like those types of things,
it's like, no, this is this, is like asking
them to grow an extra toe or something.
You know, like it's not going to happen,
like it just no, you know, like they're not
doing this just to be a certain way.
They are a certain way and that's what's
(16:40):
difficult for them.
It's funny.
I'm going to give a more specific example
for the listeners.
But somebody had posted recently like my
child cannot be on time to school and she's
really frustrated about this.
This was a mom about this.
(17:03):
This was a mom.
And I responded and said, yeah, I face the
same thing.
The best thing that I recommend is change
your work schedule and arrange with the
school that you won't be punished Like.
This is not something that she just can do,
quote, unquote.
And it's still as a parent.
It doesn't make sense to me why you know
915 is any different than 845 or something
right.
But I faced that with my kid too, and you
(17:26):
know I tried everything under the sun and
finally I was like well, I'm just going to
push my work schedule back so that I'm not
anxious, right, getting to my office,
that's it, because she is going to be late,
my office, that's it Because she is going
to be late period, it doesn't matter what I
do.
So to me it's like all right, as a parent,
(17:47):
you modify your behavior and luckily I have
the opportunity to do that.
Like I understand, not everyone's
workplaces give them the opportunity to do
that, and then it really is stressful for
them and you keep trying to look for
solutions and do that type of thing.
I don't know.
I just thought like that's a common example
where, yeah, yeah, for a neurotypical kid I
think you can set alarms and do this and do
(18:09):
that and do all the standard stuff.
But when you get into parenting a child
who's not neurotypical, a lot of that stuff
doesn't work.
A child who's not neurotypical a lie, that
stuff doesn't work.
You have to figure out something different
for them.
Yeah, it's it really is that.
Allison (18:25):
You know, when this comes up in in sessions,
I do coaching for the parents of the
children or adolescents that I see as well,
if they're interested in that.
So when we go into those spaces and they
bring these concerns, like you're reading
or getting in these communities, they bring
(18:46):
these concerns into those sessions and and
a rigid mindset that we are, I mean it's
programmed into us if we're in mainstream
(19:06):
school, I mean just in societies in general,
in our capitalism, you know way, it's all
about productivity and individualism and I
think that just funnels us into this rigid,
closed mindset that you know it's just one
foot in front of the other and so if we
have those blinders on, because our number
(19:27):
one goal has been to be, you know,
successful member of those systems, it's
almost like we're on this extreme end of a
spectrum without realizing it right, like
we are just kind of going through the
motions.
So, what we do in work one-on-one is just
do that introspection and we go to the
(19:47):
drawing board and it doesn't really, you
know, have any real end goal.
We are creative, we're flexible with where
we want to go.
The only real goal that I always have
clients lean into is can we drop just a
little bit of that rigidity, that tension,
(20:09):
that must you know, that really really
intense drive?
For you know, these are our options, one or
the other, that's all we've got.
That's all.
That's the best we can do.
We're going to kind of force this force,
this round, peg into a square hole.
It's really about looking at the fear there,
(20:30):
what would happen, what's the risk, you
know, and getting deeper out of the logic,
deeper into that emotional space.
And then, once they see it right, once we
tend to go there introspectively,
especially with a professional or community
that can mirror back to us what's going on
for us.
You know that that perspective shift is
(20:51):
usually what opens, opens my clients up,
and then, once you open that up, I mean you
know the world is your oyster.
It's really about finding what those limits
are.
Like you said, if you can push back your
work schedule.
Oh, my goodness, there you go.
It was.
It was really a simple shift right in front
of you, but you had to be open enough to
see it right.
Yes, you had to be trusting enough, or you
(21:11):
know, maybe it's going to be harder, maybe
it's going to be we've got to tap into
something we haven't really considered, or
maybe it's something that we need to tap
into that we've just been resisting for
some other reason.
But that exploration it's going to show us.
It's going to show us what's behind the
resistance.
Dr. Liz (21:27):
It's going to show us what our options are.
It's really beautiful.
Yes, I love how you put that like just an
opening up, a brainstorming, and then it
shifts that perspective.
So tell us how you did create this
community where you have the opportunity to
support parents in that way.
Allison (21:44):
Yeah, yeah.
So the community that I have, that I'm
hosting right now, we're currently a small
group of just about all late diagnosed, all
DHD parents and the the goal we have
currently.
So there's about, let me see, 11, 11 of us
right now and the goal that we have
(22:05):
currently is being in a space, being in
community with one another online, and so
these are participants from all over the U
S right now and we come together with a
focus each week where we are getting a
little bit of that learning on the front
end, something that surrounds the specific
(22:28):
experience of high masking or late
diagnosed autism and ADHD, because there's
an ongoing deconstruction right Just what
we talked about going from the rigid
compliance-based programming right and
trying to move into the flexibility in a
world that does not have that same site
(22:50):
that pushes back a lot right.
Constantly, the group members are running
up against that, that internalized shame
coming up like oh, I've rocked the boat see,
this is why this is why we can't do that,
you know, and when.
That is the dominant narrative and we are
trying to step outside of that to create
(23:11):
this beautiful equilibrium but, we don't
have community behind us, we don't have
meaningful community who can mirror back
what we are experiencing.
Talk about hard mode you know, I mean it is
so difficult and confusing and our partners
may disagree with us and it's just this
(23:33):
slog to try to do and a lot of the time,
you know, people will throw in the towel,
they'll give up without community.
So the idea behind this was to give a space,
an option for not only learning but also to
be able to share.
So participants will come each week, we do
(23:55):
about 20 minutes of learning on a topic and
they have the topic ahead of time so they
can kind of pick and choose how they want
to participate and then we leave the end
open for community support conversation.
I will ask about a specific event coming up
that week or something that they had
(24:16):
experienced, and we'll tie it back into a
reflection on what we learned this last
week.
A great example was we talked about the
difference between typical anxiety and the
typical treatments of anxiety and we
compared that to what atypical or more
neurodivergent anxiety looks like.
And they're very different, but our society
(24:38):
doesn't have this context.
So it's.
It's the difference between, like a fear of
the unknown, you know like what, if I go,
you know, drive on the highway and suddenly
I'm stuck in traffic and I have to go to
the bathroom, and you know that's typical
anxiety.
It's this fear of the unknown, and so we
avoid.
But there's a difference, right?
(24:58):
So we talked about how more neurodivergent
anxiety is actually dread.
Right, it's informed knowledge, experiences
that have informed us.
Like I'm about to go, maybe have to sit
into a meeting that doesn't have an agenda
and the lights are going to be blaring in
my eyes.
I don't know when I'm going to get out, I'm
going to have to deal with all the sensory
(25:19):
overload I'm going to have to be on.
You know, that's not really anxiety, that's
dread about a real thing that you really do
know about.
You know, yes, so we'll tie that in.
We have that, that education, and I'll ask
them you know, go ahead and give me a time
where you felt that you were anxious about
something and you overrode those anxiety
(25:40):
cues in the name of you know, exposure, in
the name of we're going to be brave and
we're not going to avoid this.
And so then at the end of it we'll go,
we'll revisit that, what they shared, and
they'll realize huh, yeah, I'm pretty sure
that was dread actually, and this is what I
(26:03):
was actually dreading doing over anxiety
and have an experience shared about what
we're dealing with at the school level and
get this entirely.
You know this empathetic and engaged and
informed group of people going through and
they know what each other is going through,
people going through the same thing and
being able to say absolutely, you're
(26:24):
absolutely on the correct path, even if
there is no one else to validate you.
We can.
And here's what we know and here is why it
is valid what you are doing.
And every week it's just leaving with this
sense of relief and lightness and just this
felt sense that, even though we're
(26:45):
challenging a dominant narrative, it does
not take away from the validity there and
from the importance of it.
Dr. Liz (26:53):
I love it.
It sounds wonderful.
Honestly, it really does, because even as
you were talking, I was thinking about
different friends that I have and some are
more neurodivergent affirming than others
because of their own experiences and their
(27:13):
own neurological makeup as well.
Like we were saying, you know previously,
if you, if you face that, you understand it
at a deeper level sometimes.
So I was thinking about that and the
brainstorming I think even that
neurodivergent parents come up with is very
different than what a more neurotypical
(27:37):
parent would come up with.
You know, sort of like the the lateness
example is like, well, you just make them
do it Like you and it's like, well, that's,
that's not going to work with my kid.
I can't make her do anything very little,
you know, particularly at this age, even
when she was little nope, you can.
That creates so much like overwhelm,
(27:57):
conflict, you know, hour long tantrums when
she's a little bitty creates all this
negativity around it, trauma it goes into
trauma for some children, even trauma it
goes into trauma for some children.
Even so, you know, I prefer not that exact
parenting strategy of making, but my point
here is that what a wonderful way to create
(28:21):
support and access support for parents.
What an incredible resource you could
access.
There is what I'm thinking Brainstorming
information that's not being presented in
other areas.
(28:42):
I mean, I think there's a lot more
information nowadays than there was even
five or 10 years ago, but it's not always
interactive, right?
If you're thinking about videos or TikTok
or something like that, it's not a
conversation often where it's you could be
like what about this?
Okay, I tried that, and now what about this?
You know, and then also talk about the
effect on you, like how it affected you, or
(29:05):
thinking about I, I just can't do that, I'm
not able to do that, like that type of
thing.
It's sort of going on here, but I'm just
picturing how wonderful that is.
Allison (29:16):
Yes, yeah, it's that there is a statistic
that pops up for me so often when I think
about exactly what it is you're talking
about.
Right, there's value in learning, and
there's value on TikTok and in podcasts and
YouTube and getting this information
because it starts to open us up and it gets
(29:40):
us into a reflective mindset.
Right, and there's that's so beautiful and
so necessary.
But there's this statistic that comes up
when trying to sort of conceptualize the
value there, in taking it a step further
into things like community.
Right, it's this study that was done.
That shows that talking out loud about a
(30:01):
topic that you are kind of ruminating on
and trying to make sense of talking out
loud for I can't remember the exact number
(30:23):
of seconds, but it's seconds right.
Talking out loud and having it heard right
and being in that, it's a very human
experience.
We're social creatures, right.
Talking out loud and having it heard right
and being in that, that's a very human
experience.
We're social creatures, right.
Even with even with neurodivergence there's
still.
It's just a difference.
It's a difference in social need and the
way we do it.
But in doing that we get the amount of
(30:46):
relief that comes with doing that out loud
talking and taking it from our mind and
verbalizing it and having it mirrored back
to us or processed with us.
It's almost like this you know, you go from
50% support through the education
(31:07):
modalities, through watching videos and
through learning and informing yourself,
and it's this additional, almost like
closing a loop, like another 50%, and there
you have it, you've closed or you have
fully processed this entire nugget of
information, this entire topic.
Dr. Liz (31:26):
So I believe it.
Yeah, I haven't seen the study, but I
believe it because, even like support
groups on Facebook let's say which or
Reddit or anything like that um discord you
are interacting but you are missing that
out loud piece.
And you're also exerting a lot of energy,
(31:48):
sometimes explaining yourself, like when
people misinterpret, like you know, I
didn't mean that you know, or, of course,
I'm not doing this, you know?
Or what about this Like and there's the
delay, too right, as you wait for responses
to come in and you read them.
Allison (32:08):
So different yeah, and you're also they're
so different.
Dr. Liz (32:11):
They are.
Allison (32:12):
They are, and you also know there's always
a risk of being attacked and so in some way,
some shape or form, and so then, where we
tried to go for support, we can end up
really questioning ourselves more than we
went into to begin with, and that is
defeating the purpose.
And there you go, like your energy has now
(32:33):
been spent in a place that couldn't nurture
it, it couldn't, it couldn't create a
safety place for it.
So this is yes, that's another, that's
another piece to this too.
So you know, when I think about how this
differentiate, or is differentiated, um,
you know, from from Facebook support groups
and Reddit support groups, and that's
typically where members have found me,
(32:57):
because I have always been in those spaces.
I think you know my journey definitely
started on Reddit and with books and trying
to connect that way, and so that's just
very natural for me to be in those spaces
and trying to connect that way, and so
that's just very natural for me to be in
those spaces.
I think a lot of us, as neurodivergent
people, we're data collectors, right.
Yes, we're just constantly trying to make
(33:17):
sense of our experiences and it's so
beautiful and it can be so exhausting too.
But yeah, coming out of those types of
forums, I think that until you do it, you
don't really know what you're going to get.
You don't really understand that power in
being in a place that is safely moderated
by an expert who is able to maintain
(33:39):
complete safety for as much as you can in a
group, but being able to be protected and
making sure that members are vetted, and
yeah, it's a totally different experience.
You don't have to put as much energy into
it and you get so much more of that need of
being felt and seen and understood.
Dr. Liz (33:59):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, great.
I want to know two things One, how can
listeners find it and how can they join?
And two, what is the?
How do we put that criteria for joining?
Like I know, when you originally emailed me,
you said it's for educating, empowering
(34:20):
neurodivergent parents.
But do you have to have even a
self-diagnosis of ADHD or autism?
Can you be highly sensitive?
Can you be an artist?
I put that under neurodivergent umbrella,
like you just think a little differently.
Like, yeah, who can join that community?
Allison (34:42):
Yeah, so great questions.
I am the spirit of making or meeting that
need of neurodivergent or you know, yeah,
like you said, detailed thinkers and
creatives.
My website is an absolute wealth of
information.
(35:02):
I have attempted to put every single bit of
information that I can on there that will
be helpful for people who are interested in
checking us out or joining to be able to
learn more.
You do not need any formal diagnosis.
I find that is a huge barrier to getting
the support that we need.
(35:23):
So this is going to be for when we're
dealing with things like systemic labels
and those processes that can be so
difficult.
I think the number one thing is really
learning to tune into ourselves.
So, for any parent who is noticing there's
a pattern of struggle and when I say
(35:45):
struggle, it might be in parenting itself
it was way harder than you had expected and
the textbook approaches are not working, or
the burnout was profound and you did not
expect that either.
These are all cues to listen to and they
are all great telltale signs that there may
be just a different you have a different,
(36:07):
you know neuro profile than maybe the
majority of society, and that's beautiful
and this is a place to explore that.
So, yes, highly sensitive, creative artists.
Right now, the group is made up of a lot of
moms and dads it's all types of, you know,
we're different gender but also a lot of
(36:28):
people who are already in some either
helper spaces or creative spaces.
We've got therapists, we have social
workers, we have yoga instructors.
It's it's a lot of those types of
personalities just incredibly empathetic.
So it's a very safe space to be a part of.
(36:48):
And if you are interested in, you know,
maybe that's there's this whole thing of
like hush, you know I'm a parent.
It's one of the most demanding roles that
we could have in our society.
How?
do I know if I can make time for this or
how do I do I know if I want to commit to
it.
It's really month by month participation.
So let's say that you have a month that is
(37:08):
just absolutely chaotic and coming up on
the holidays, you know, I do anticipate
that.
You know our meetings are going to be a bit
different, but if you have a month going to
be chaotic, you can kind of pause a month
and come back, and I try to make it so that
payment is not a barrier either.
So this is just kind of the payment to
(37:31):
participate.
It's very low.
We're $45 a month and there's a parenting
course that I have up there too for highly
sensitive children and parents.
So, yeah, it's really neuro-inclusive.
The biggest thing is that you are noticing
this is kind of like parenting on hard mode.
This is not what I noticed my friends are
(37:53):
experiencing.
I get a lot of feedback from others or
judgments on how I'm doing things and I am
spent.
Something is off.
That's really what I want people to look
for.
That's it Okay, great.
That's really what I want people to look
for.
That's it, okay, great.
That is enough to listen to.
Yes, and what's the website?
And the website is attuned pathways.
(38:16):
It's the name of the group.
It's attunedpathwayspodiacom it's got.
It's a course hosting site as well, so we
have courses you can delve into that I have
created if you're interested, but it's
completely optional.
So that's the website I also have.
If you would just like to connect and stay
in touch.
(38:43):
I also have an Instagram page that is
called Attunement Method, and that one is
where I also share just a lot of free
resources.
You can get some nice community support
there as well for completely free.
Dr. Liz (38:49):
Great, great Thank you.
So, listeners, you can always access those
websites or the Instagram on the show notes
too, so they're always in the show notes.
Show notes are always on my website, even
if they're not appearing in your podcast
app Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't
there so you can always go to the website
(39:10):
and look for them there too.
So thank you so much, alison, for sharing
your wisdom with us and telling us about
how this all came to be, and I would think
your enrollment would go up during the
holidays.
Allison (39:24):
Honestly, it's so hard know, it's so much
to navigate.
Dr. Liz (39:31):
Yeah.
Allison (39:32):
I would not be surprised, because we are
getting close.
Dr. Liz (39:35):
Yeah, I know a lot of questions during the
holidays are how do I navigate parties?
I'm seeing this with my own autistic
clients.
How do I navigate holiday parties for
parents of smaller kids, like, how do I
handle the grandparents, or you know aunts
and uncles who are gonna criticize me or
say you should right, you should do this,
(39:57):
you should do that.
Why are you doing that?
Allison (40:00):
you know, make him sit at the dinner table
yes, that's so intense, it's like how am I
supposed to be the one, in those situations,
who stays grounded I know I'm laughing or
my child?
Dr. Liz (40:15):
Exactly.
I'm laughing because it's so difficult, you
know, to navigate those often when people
are expecting things to just be a certain
way and they're not.
They're not Like not for you, not for your
kid or kiddos, yeah.
So that's where the laughter is coming from.
So glad I don't have to do much of that
(40:35):
anymore, as my kids are older now and it's
like they don't want to go, they don't go,
they don't go to the party yeah, absolutely
well, that's that's the thing too, with
with mine, now you with mine, now you know
this.
Allison (40:49):
This is something that we shift into.
It's like Ooh, once you get creative there,
for for us, you know, we've shifted into
what this Thanksgiving coming up, you know
my all the HD son.
It's amazing for him to come and to be a
part and to engage for whatever capacity
you know, whatever amount of time he has.
(41:09):
I mean, what a gift that he's able to show
up and give that part of him to family and
we're letting him bring his Xbox and put it
upstairs and hook it up whenever he needs a
break.
He's got that.
That's already done for him.
He doesn't have to be in that fight or
flight mode Just wondering when he'll be
able to escape, because he has parents who
have done the work and who have done what
(41:30):
it, what it takes to give him just a sense
of safety.
It actually it allows him to to stay
engaged with family for longer, because he
knows, he knows that he can go and have
that permission to go, to go, just be alone,
and decompress so that's kind of what we,
that's what we do in the group.
We really look at like you know how, how,
how important is it that we do to it if the
(41:52):
dread or how do we?
Dr. Liz (41:53):
navigate it, you know how do we, how do we
um ourselves navigate that feeling?
Allison (42:18):
it is a complete, a game changer and
imagining doing something that can be.
We usually use the word provocative right,
so provocative right just to, to tune into
ourselves and to take up a little bit more
space, and it is whenever we've been
programmed to kind of put others before
ourselves or minimize our own needs.
(42:38):
But to do that in isolation.
I mean often, you know our members will
talk about.
I thought of what we talked about last week
and it made it so much more clear in that
moment with my mother-in-law what to do and
that's beautiful.
Dr. Liz (42:57):
Oh yeah, I love it.
That's awesome, anything that's going to
help you with your mother-in-law, right.
Allison (43:02):
Right.
Dr. Liz (43:05):
Yeah, so true.
So again, thank you so much for being here.
Allison (43:10):
Yes, Thank you so much for having me.
This was lovely.
I'm glad to to get to share a little bit
more about something that I think a lot
more people experience than we realize.
My interview today is with Allison Freeman.
She created a community called Attuned
Pathways where neurodivergent parents can
go to get support and not just support as
in reading stuff or many courses or that
type of thing, but actual, live, meaningful
(00:23):
community support, like these group calls,
where they can really brainstorm and work
through what's going on with them as
parents, as they navigate parenthood as a
neurodivergent parent, which is different
than navigating parenthood as a more
neurotypical parent, regardless of whether
(00:47):
your child is neurotypical or
neurodivergent.
Allison had emailed me to let me know about
this community that she's built and I
immediately read the email and thought, oh
my God, I've got to interview her and more
people need to know about this.
This is so valuable.
There are support groups for parents of
neurodivergent children that I've seen, but
(01:08):
I have not ever seen before a support group
for neurodivergent parents, and that is her
focus.
Now she does say very clearly that
neurodivergent quote unquote is a very
loose term, it doesn't need to be anything
officially diagnosed and during the
interview, near the end, she tells about
the type of thoughts you may be having that
(01:30):
are cues of maybe.
This is a community for me, so that you can
check it out Now.
I identify as highly sensitive, meaning all
kinds of sensory stuff is processed
differently for me.
I'm more sensitive to light, sounds,
textures, clothing oh my gosh.
(01:50):
I can't even tell you how many struggles
I've had with clothing smells, oh man.
Yeah, we talk about mother-in-law's near
the end of the interview and it's like
there was this one Christmas where we were
driving up to my brother-in-law's house and
we were taking my mother-in-law with us and
I asked my husband could you please ask her
(02:12):
not to wear perfume?
Gives me a headache.
We're gonna be in the car for 14 hours.
It gets really awful for me and of course
she wore perfume.
I ended up with like a 10 hour headache or
something.
Love her these days, but believe me, that
was a tough car ride for me.
That's just one example of many, many, many
(02:34):
things that HSPs and autistic people deal
with in terms of sensory sensitivities.
Sensory sensitivities is on one leg of the
triangle that's needed to diagnose autism.
You've got to qualify for all three legs
and I don't.
So I'm not autistic myself, but I do have
(02:57):
the sensory sensitivities and often people
will have the sensory sensitivities, not
really know what highly sensitive person is
HSP and think that they're autistic.
Sometimes I have to clarify that for them
when they come in for an adult autism
diagnosis.
And, just so you know, I only do adults
over 18 for adult autism evaluations and
(03:20):
there's two levels of that.
So one is a far more formal level which
someone could use that report to apply for
disability.
That takes a lot more time as well.
But I also offer an assessment session,
quote-unquote, where we meet for 90 minutes
to two hours and we're reviewing the
criteria of autism and and whether someone
(03:41):
meets it based on their life experiences.
What they've been through in the past and
currently is all taken into account and I
give my professional opinion and it can be
very validating for someone either way
actually to say, okay, yes, I meet criteria
for autism or I don't.
I am private pay, so none of that shows up
(04:02):
on your insurance records, particularly if
you don't want it to.
There's some downsides that can happen
sometimes.
When someone has a diagnosis of autism in
their records it's a whole other episode
and I've actually recorded it, so you can
go listen to that one, search it up,
because I don't know the number off the top
of my head.
All right, let's jump into hearing from
(04:24):
Allison and how she came up with this
wonderful community and what it offers
parents.
Hi, allison, welcome to the Hypnotize Me
podcast.
Allison (04:36):
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Dr. Liz (04:39):
Yeah, I'm so glad that you agreed to be
here, because I think there's some well
needed information that you're to be here,
because I think there's some well-needed
information that you're going to let our
audience know.
So we're just going to jump in to that.
Why don't you give us some background about
how you decided to be a therapist and then
(05:00):
how you got into autism support, all of
that good stuff?
Allison (05:05):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
So big question there.
But I my my path was really something that
was a felt sense, you know really from,
from really, when I was younger I always
had an interest in people and human
psychology and so I was funneled there,
(05:27):
naturally, like so many of us are.
But I actually started my career as a
school counselor.
So the first 13 years after graduating with
(05:49):
my school counseling degree I was in an
elementary school and that's where I really
started seeing the need for neurodivergent
support and it would start for me at the
school level noticing the challenges that
were chronic.
There were so many patterns in children
that were really high masking and those
would trickle into the family.
So it was kind of a combination of an
(06:11):
interest there, okay, and that led me into
I needed more freedom.
So being in the school system, you're
really bound by a lot of those system,
those system, I guess, boundaries or just a
(06:32):
lot of that.
You know we've got to do it one way.
There's not a whole lot of resources to go
deeper and to support these kids and
families to the level that I really wanted
to.
So I actually went back to school and I
added on my clinical licensure and then I
left the school system and now that is
where my work is primarily.
(06:54):
I work with either late diagnosed autistic
and ADHD clients or adolescents who are
high masking or adolescents who are high
masking.
So that's kind of yeah, how I was funneled
there.
I myself I am an ADHD, adhd and autistic
therapist and mother of an ADHD son who was
(07:15):
in middle school.
Dr. Liz (07:30):
Okay, great.
And when you say late diagnosed, you're
referring to an adulthood.
Yes, anything after school age, okay, so
like after 18, basically in the in the us
we run up into 17.
Allison (07:34):
18 is when kids graduate from high school
yes, that is, that is how we conceptualize
that.
It's almost like you, a second phase of
life into that early, early adulthood.
So anytime after they're really yeah, and
that can be a wide span of years that some
people will will discover that in
themselves.
Dr. Liz (07:53):
Yeah, and when?
Did you discover it yourself, or were you
diagnosed as a kid A little?
Allison (07:58):
bit of both.
So ADHD was discovered in school for me and
the big thing that was noticed was
inattention.
It was something that I began to notice as
I was a little older, getting into
secondary school and then others around me.
I think it impacted.
I think it impacted me to a level that the
(08:20):
adults noticed that was the key for being
diagnosed there.
They had to notice that my potential wasn't
being met and that's when they took me in
for testing and I met that clinical
threshold and it was helpful to a degree.
I think it informed teachers and my parents
and they were able to accommodate me a bit
(08:41):
better.
But it was not the whole picture.
There were still a lot of pieces that were
kind of a misalignment, I would say for me,
and that was something I had to figure out.
I wasn't diagnosed with autism until I was
35.
Dr. Liz (08:57):
35.
Okay, so that's late.
Yes, yeah, and how did that come about?
Allison (09:04):
That was a whole self, self exploration,
self discovery experience and I think I had
a little bit of a privilege there honestly
just being being so exposed to or immersed
in the world of high masking autism.
It's its own thing.
Dr. Liz (09:23):
You know, it's not.
Allison (09:24):
it's not quite the same as the
stereotypical autism that people have been
learning about over the last couple of
decades.
It is its own thing, and so working with my
son definitely was the beginning of it,
where I, as we, were supporting him, I had
these moments of well, but I did that, you
know, like hold on, I don't are we sure.
(09:46):
And then it was it was through therapy, my
own therapy, that I was able to have
patterns reflected back to me.
So a combination of, of, of some luck, you
know, being exposed to the populations that
could mirror, mirror those things in myself
back to me.
Dr. Liz (10:03):
Got it, got it, yeah.
Mirror those things in myself back to me
Got it, got it, yeah.
And I have quite a few parents that come in
that contact me because I do just adult
autism evaluations I don't do childhood and
often people will contact me as adults
saying, hey, my kid was just diagnosed and
I want to know if I'm autistic too, because
(10:24):
I see all these similarities in me.
Allison (10:28):
Yes, yes, it is a pattern, for sure, and
that's very similar to what I notice in my
practice as well, and I think that's so
important to that we listen to that we so
important to that we listen to that we that
(10:49):
we are able to tune into, turn inward and
do exactly what you just described.
Yes, slow it down, be with what you're
noticing, get curious and then seek out
some information outside of just yourself.
I think that is a huge, huge piece.
It's so worthwhile.
Dr. Liz (11:05):
Yes, yeah, it is, it really is, and I think
when people identify that, parents identify
it.
I think the support can also change for the
child.
Like the child's experience of support is
actually what I'm trying to say Like the
(11:25):
actual support can change too.
Right, but I tend to assume that people are
empathetic parents and both my kids laugh
at that because they're like no, most
people are not empathetic, most parents are
not like you and I'm like well, you know, I
don't know.
I guess I like to assume the best of people
that they're going to support their kids no
(11:46):
matter what, but I think that I don't know.
There's some qualitative change in there If
the child knows oh my, my mom or my dad are
autistic too and they just didn't know it
before this.
So I think there is a different experience
of that as a child, I would assume.
(12:08):
What do you think?
Allison (12:09):
Absolutely.
I think that's so important and even having
that as a an important reframe, because for
me and I think a lot of the time when we
are trying to really support our children
and we're doing it out of sometimes, it's
this skill we don't even realize is unique
(12:32):
to us as neurodivergent people, which is,
you know, really like hyper-empathy and
attunement, where we're really tuned into
our children and we see things, we have a
sight that is sometimes beyond what
neurotypical parenting can look like, right,
and so we we noticed these things that may
fly under the radar for others and it turns
(12:55):
out okay.
So, yeah, my child has what we call low
support needs, autism possibly and it is
something that's a little bit more nuanced
to catch and you're having to be their
biggest advocate in those situations.
You know, if they are in these places like
compliance based systems and the school
(13:15):
system, right, yes, those needs are
misaligned, the needs the school system has
misaligned with what the needs of the child
are, because compliance and that
flexibility and all of the approaches we
really need to have for neurocomplex kiddos,
it doesn't really, you know, it's not
something we have right now.
So, as you were the parent doing that
advocacy work for your child.
(13:37):
I mean, I remember just this really intense
pull between wanting and needing and
knowing I needed to be there for my child
and I saw his needs and I saw the things
that needed to be tweaked or accommodated
and it was simple to me.
And then I would get pushback from the
school right and that pushback would
(13:59):
trigger all of this internalized shame and
ableism and all of these things.
You know, you're taught don't rock the boat,
be a good girl, right, we need to make sure
that we are being compliant.
It would just flare all of that up.
But when we talk about bringing in or
weaving in the possibility of our own
(14:21):
highly masked autistic identity, there is a
easier we have an easier time there
deconstructing some of that internalized
shame, internalized ableism, getting really
introspective and showing up with more
fervor and more confidence for our child.
(14:42):
As we're broadening confidence for our
child, as we're broadening our entire
perspective, this becomes less laser
focused on my singular child's needs and it
moves into this global space.
So yeah, absolutely so.
To that point, I think it is incredibly
worthwhile to slow down and be curious
about that in yourself, and the reframe
would be it is going to only deepen that
(15:06):
support and help you with clarity as you're
navigating how to do it.
Dr. Liz (15:10):
Yes, absolutely Okay, great, I'm glad to
hear that you see it a similar way as I do,
because often I will see parents just not
understand, will see parents just not
understand.
I'm just going to put it very simply.
So I'm in several Facebook groups of
parents of autistic children and they're
(15:34):
they'll post questions where they're
assuming that the child is doing something
out of obstinance, let's say, versus like I
don't know if they had a deeper
understanding of that, and that's always
the goal is.
I think they're wanting a deeper
understanding of that.
That's why they're posting the question and,
(15:55):
honestly, the communities are great that I
belong to about providing that for them.
But it's like, with a deeper understanding
of that, then that negative bent on the
child, I think, dissolves.
So instead of feeling like, oh, this child
is doing this to bug me or because they
(16:16):
don't want to do something, or they're just
being obstinate, like those types of things,
it's like, no, this is this, is like asking
them to grow an extra toe or something.
You know, like it's not going to happen,
like it just no, you know, like they're not
doing this just to be a certain way.
They are a certain way and that's what's
(16:40):
difficult for them.
It's funny.
I'm going to give a more specific example
for the listeners.
But somebody had posted recently like my
child cannot be on time to school and she's
really frustrated about this.
This was a mom about this.
(17:03):
This was a mom.
And I responded and said, yeah, I face the
same thing.
The best thing that I recommend is change
your work schedule and arrange with the
school that you won't be punished Like.
This is not something that she just can do,
quote, unquote.
And it's still as a parent.
It doesn't make sense to me why you know
915 is any different than 845 or something
right.
But I faced that with my kid too, and you
(17:26):
know I tried everything under the sun and
finally I was like well, I'm just going to
push my work schedule back so that I'm not
anxious, right, getting to my office,
that's it, because she is going to be late,
my office, that's it Because she is going
to be late period, it doesn't matter what I
do.
So to me it's like all right, as a parent,
(17:47):
you modify your behavior and luckily I have
the opportunity to do that.
Like I understand, not everyone's
workplaces give them the opportunity to do
that, and then it really is stressful for
them and you keep trying to look for
solutions and do that type of thing.
I don't know.
I just thought like that's a common example
where, yeah, yeah, for a neurotypical kid I
think you can set alarms and do this and do
(18:09):
that and do all the standard stuff.
But when you get into parenting a child
who's not neurotypical, a lot of that stuff
doesn't work.
A child who's not neurotypical a lie, that
stuff doesn't work.
You have to figure out something different
for them.
Yeah, it's it really is that.
Allison (18:25):
You know, when this comes up in in sessions,
I do coaching for the parents of the
children or adolescents that I see as well,
if they're interested in that.
So when we go into those spaces and they
bring these concerns, like you're reading
or getting in these communities, they bring
(18:46):
these concerns into those sessions and and
a rigid mindset that we are, I mean it's
programmed into us if we're in mainstream
(19:06):
school, I mean just in societies in general,
in our capitalism, you know way, it's all
about productivity and individualism and I
think that just funnels us into this rigid,
closed mindset that you know it's just one
foot in front of the other and so if we
have those blinders on, because our number
(19:27):
one goal has been to be, you know,
successful member of those systems, it's
almost like we're on this extreme end of a
spectrum without realizing it right, like
we are just kind of going through the
motions.
So, what we do in work one-on-one is just
do that introspection and we go to the
(19:47):
drawing board and it doesn't really, you
know, have any real end goal.
We are creative, we're flexible with where
we want to go.
The only real goal that I always have
clients lean into is can we drop just a
little bit of that rigidity, that tension,
(20:09):
that must you know, that really really
intense drive?
For you know, these are our options, one or
the other, that's all we've got.
That's all.
That's the best we can do.
We're going to kind of force this force,
this round, peg into a square hole.
It's really about looking at the fear there,
(20:30):
what would happen, what's the risk, you
know, and getting deeper out of the logic,
deeper into that emotional space.
And then, once they see it right, once we
tend to go there introspectively,
especially with a professional or community
that can mirror back to us what's going on
for us.
You know that that perspective shift is
(20:51):
usually what opens, opens my clients up,
and then, once you open that up, I mean you
know the world is your oyster.
It's really about finding what those limits
are.
Like you said, if you can push back your
work schedule.
Oh, my goodness, there you go.
It was.
It was really a simple shift right in front
of you, but you had to be open enough to
see it right.
Yes, you had to be trusting enough, or you
(21:11):
know, maybe it's going to be harder, maybe
it's going to be we've got to tap into
something we haven't really considered, or
maybe it's something that we need to tap
into that we've just been resisting for
some other reason.
But that exploration it's going to show us.
It's going to show us what's behind the
resistance.
Dr. Liz (21:27):
It's going to show us what our options are.
It's really beautiful.
Yes, I love how you put that like just an
opening up, a brainstorming, and then it
shifts that perspective.
So tell us how you did create this
community where you have the opportunity to
support parents in that way.
Allison (21:44):
Yeah, yeah.
So the community that I have, that I'm
hosting right now, we're currently a small
group of just about all late diagnosed, all
DHD parents and the the goal we have
currently.
So there's about, let me see, 11, 11 of us
right now and the goal that we have
(22:05):
currently is being in a space, being in
community with one another online, and so
these are participants from all over the U
S right now and we come together with a
focus each week where we are getting a
little bit of that learning on the front
end, something that surrounds the specific
(22:28):
experience of high masking or late
diagnosed autism and ADHD, because there's
an ongoing deconstruction right Just what
we talked about going from the rigid
compliance-based programming right and
trying to move into the flexibility in a
world that does not have that same site
(22:50):
that pushes back a lot right.
Constantly, the group members are running
up against that, that internalized shame
coming up like oh, I've rocked the boat see,
this is why this is why we can't do that,
you know, and when.
That is the dominant narrative and we are
trying to step outside of that to create
(23:11):
this beautiful equilibrium but, we don't
have community behind us, we don't have
meaningful community who can mirror back
what we are experiencing.
Talk about hard mode you know, I mean it is
so difficult and confusing and our partners
may disagree with us and it's just this
(23:33):
slog to try to do and a lot of the time,
you know, people will throw in the towel,
they'll give up without community.
So the idea behind this was to give a space,
an option for not only learning but also to
be able to share.
So participants will come each week, we do
(23:55):
about 20 minutes of learning on a topic and
they have the topic ahead of time so they
can kind of pick and choose how they want
to participate and then we leave the end
open for community support conversation.
I will ask about a specific event coming up
that week or something that they had
(24:16):
experienced, and we'll tie it back into a
reflection on what we learned this last
week.
A great example was we talked about the
difference between typical anxiety and the
typical treatments of anxiety and we
compared that to what atypical or more
neurodivergent anxiety looks like.
And they're very different, but our society
(24:38):
doesn't have this context.
So it's.
It's the difference between, like a fear of
the unknown, you know like what, if I go,
you know, drive on the highway and suddenly
I'm stuck in traffic and I have to go to
the bathroom, and you know that's typical
anxiety.
It's this fear of the unknown, and so we
avoid.
But there's a difference, right?
(24:58):
So we talked about how more neurodivergent
anxiety is actually dread.
Right, it's informed knowledge, experiences
that have informed us.
Like I'm about to go, maybe have to sit
into a meeting that doesn't have an agenda
and the lights are going to be blaring in
my eyes.
I don't know when I'm going to get out, I'm
going to have to deal with all the sensory
(25:19):
overload I'm going to have to be on.
You know, that's not really anxiety, that's
dread about a real thing that you really do
know about.
You know, yes, so we'll tie that in.
We have that, that education, and I'll ask
them you know, go ahead and give me a time
where you felt that you were anxious about
something and you overrode those anxiety
(25:40):
cues in the name of you know, exposure, in
the name of we're going to be brave and
we're not going to avoid this.
And so then at the end of it we'll go,
we'll revisit that, what they shared, and
they'll realize huh, yeah, I'm pretty sure
that was dread actually, and this is what I
(26:03):
was actually dreading doing over anxiety
and have an experience shared about what
we're dealing with at the school level and
get this entirely.
You know this empathetic and engaged and
informed group of people going through and
they know what each other is going through,
people going through the same thing and
being able to say absolutely, you're
(26:24):
absolutely on the correct path, even if
there is no one else to validate you.
We can.
And here's what we know and here is why it
is valid what you are doing.
And every week it's just leaving with this
sense of relief and lightness and just this
felt sense that, even though we're
(26:45):
challenging a dominant narrative, it does
not take away from the validity there and
from the importance of it.
Dr. Liz (26:53):
I love it.
It sounds wonderful.
Honestly, it really does, because even as
you were talking, I was thinking about
different friends that I have and some are
more neurodivergent affirming than others
because of their own experiences and their
(27:13):
own neurological makeup as well.
Like we were saying, you know previously,
if you, if you face that, you understand it
at a deeper level sometimes.
So I was thinking about that and the
brainstorming I think even that
neurodivergent parents come up with is very
different than what a more neurotypical
(27:37):
parent would come up with.
You know, sort of like the the lateness
example is like, well, you just make them
do it Like you and it's like, well, that's,
that's not going to work with my kid.
I can't make her do anything very little,
you know, particularly at this age, even
when she was little nope, you can.
That creates so much like overwhelm,
(27:57):
conflict, you know, hour long tantrums when
she's a little bitty creates all this
negativity around it, trauma it goes into
trauma for some children, even trauma it
goes into trauma for some children.
Even so, you know, I prefer not that exact
parenting strategy of making, but my point
here is that what a wonderful way to create
(28:21):
support and access support for parents.
What an incredible resource you could
access.
There is what I'm thinking Brainstorming
information that's not being presented in
other areas.
(28:42):
I mean, I think there's a lot more
information nowadays than there was even
five or 10 years ago, but it's not always
interactive, right?
If you're thinking about videos or TikTok
or something like that, it's not a
conversation often where it's you could be
like what about this?
Okay, I tried that, and now what about this?
You know, and then also talk about the
effect on you, like how it affected you, or
(29:05):
thinking about I, I just can't do that, I'm
not able to do that, like that type of
thing.
It's sort of going on here, but I'm just
picturing how wonderful that is.
Allison (29:16):
Yes, yeah, it's that there is a statistic
that pops up for me so often when I think
about exactly what it is you're talking
about.
Right, there's value in learning, and
there's value on TikTok and in podcasts and
YouTube and getting this information
because it starts to open us up and it gets
(29:40):
us into a reflective mindset.
Right, and there's that's so beautiful and
so necessary.
But there's this statistic that comes up
when trying to sort of conceptualize the
value there, in taking it a step further
into things like community.
Right, it's this study that was done.
That shows that talking out loud about a
(30:01):
topic that you are kind of ruminating on
and trying to make sense of talking out
loud for I can't remember the exact number
(30:23):
of seconds, but it's seconds right.
Talking out loud and having it heard right
and being in that, it's a very human
experience.
We're social creatures, right.
Talking out loud and having it heard right
and being in that, that's a very human
experience.
We're social creatures, right.
Even with even with neurodivergence there's
still.
It's just a difference.
It's a difference in social need and the
way we do it.
But in doing that we get the amount of
(30:46):
relief that comes with doing that out loud
talking and taking it from our mind and
verbalizing it and having it mirrored back
to us or processed with us.
It's almost like this you know, you go from
50% support through the education
(31:07):
modalities, through watching videos and
through learning and informing yourself,
and it's this additional, almost like
closing a loop, like another 50%, and there
you have it, you've closed or you have
fully processed this entire nugget of
information, this entire topic.
Dr. Liz (31:26):
So I believe it.
Yeah, I haven't seen the study, but I
believe it because, even like support
groups on Facebook let's say which or
Reddit or anything like that um discord you
are interacting but you are missing that
out loud piece.
And you're also exerting a lot of energy,
(31:48):
sometimes explaining yourself, like when
people misinterpret, like you know, I
didn't mean that you know, or, of course,
I'm not doing this, you know?
Or what about this Like and there's the
delay, too right, as you wait for responses
to come in and you read them.
Allison (32:08):
So different yeah, and you're also they're
so different.
Dr. Liz (32:11):
They are.
Allison (32:12):
They are, and you also know there's always
a risk of being attacked and so in some way,
some shape or form, and so then, where we
tried to go for support, we can end up
really questioning ourselves more than we
went into to begin with, and that is
defeating the purpose.
And there you go, like your energy has now
(32:33):
been spent in a place that couldn't nurture
it, it couldn't, it couldn't create a
safety place for it.
So this is yes, that's another, that's
another piece to this too.
So you know, when I think about how this
differentiate, or is differentiated, um,
you know, from from Facebook support groups
and Reddit support groups, and that's
typically where members have found me,
(32:57):
because I have always been in those spaces.
I think you know my journey definitely
started on Reddit and with books and trying
to connect that way, and so that's just
very natural for me to be in those spaces
and trying to connect that way, and so
that's just very natural for me to be in
those spaces.
I think a lot of us, as neurodivergent
people, we're data collectors, right.
Yes, we're just constantly trying to make
(33:17):
sense of our experiences and it's so
beautiful and it can be so exhausting too.
But yeah, coming out of those types of
forums, I think that until you do it, you
don't really know what you're going to get.
You don't really understand that power in
being in a place that is safely moderated
by an expert who is able to maintain
(33:39):
complete safety for as much as you can in a
group, but being able to be protected and
making sure that members are vetted, and
yeah, it's a totally different experience.
You don't have to put as much energy into
it and you get so much more of that need of
being felt and seen and understood.
Dr. Liz (33:59):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, great.
I want to know two things One, how can
listeners find it and how can they join?
And two, what is the?
How do we put that criteria for joining?
Like I know, when you originally emailed me,
you said it's for educating, empowering
(34:20):
neurodivergent parents.
But do you have to have even a
self-diagnosis of ADHD or autism?
Can you be highly sensitive?
Can you be an artist?
I put that under neurodivergent umbrella,
like you just think a little differently.
Like, yeah, who can join that community?
Allison (34:42):
Yeah, so great questions.
I am the spirit of making or meeting that
need of neurodivergent or you know, yeah,
like you said, detailed thinkers and
creatives.
My website is an absolute wealth of
information.
(35:02):
I have attempted to put every single bit of
information that I can on there that will
be helpful for people who are interested in
checking us out or joining to be able to
learn more.
You do not need any formal diagnosis.
I find that is a huge barrier to getting
the support that we need.
(35:23):
So this is going to be for when we're
dealing with things like systemic labels
and those processes that can be so
difficult.
I think the number one thing is really
learning to tune into ourselves.
So, for any parent who is noticing there's
a pattern of struggle and when I say
(35:45):
struggle, it might be in parenting itself
it was way harder than you had expected and
the textbook approaches are not working, or
the burnout was profound and you did not
expect that either.
These are all cues to listen to and they
are all great telltale signs that there may
be just a different you have a different,
(36:07):
you know neuro profile than maybe the
majority of society, and that's beautiful
and this is a place to explore that.
So, yes, highly sensitive, creative artists.
Right now, the group is made up of a lot of
moms and dads it's all types of, you know,
we're different gender but also a lot of
(36:28):
people who are already in some either
helper spaces or creative spaces.
We've got therapists, we have social
workers, we have yoga instructors.
It's it's a lot of those types of
personalities just incredibly empathetic.
So it's a very safe space to be a part of.
(36:48):
And if you are interested in, you know,
maybe that's there's this whole thing of
like hush, you know I'm a parent.
It's one of the most demanding roles that
we could have in our society.
How?
do I know if I can make time for this or
how do I do I know if I want to commit to
it.
It's really month by month participation.
So let's say that you have a month that is
(37:08):
just absolutely chaotic and coming up on
the holidays, you know, I do anticipate
that.
You know our meetings are going to be a bit
different, but if you have a month going to
be chaotic, you can kind of pause a month
and come back, and I try to make it so that
payment is not a barrier either.
So this is just kind of the payment to
(37:31):
participate.
It's very low.
We're $45 a month and there's a parenting
course that I have up there too for highly
sensitive children and parents.
So, yeah, it's really neuro-inclusive.
The biggest thing is that you are noticing
this is kind of like parenting on hard mode.
This is not what I noticed my friends are
(37:53):
experiencing.
I get a lot of feedback from others or
judgments on how I'm doing things and I am
spent.
Something is off.
That's really what I want people to look
for.
That's it Okay, great.
That's really what I want people to look
for.
That's it, okay, great.
That is enough to listen to.
Yes, and what's the website?
And the website is attuned pathways.
(38:16):
It's the name of the group.
It's attunedpathwayspodiacom it's got.
It's a course hosting site as well, so we
have courses you can delve into that I have
created if you're interested, but it's
completely optional.
So that's the website I also have.
If you would just like to connect and stay
in touch.
(38:43):
I also have an Instagram page that is
called Attunement Method, and that one is
where I also share just a lot of free
resources.
You can get some nice community support
there as well for completely free.
Dr. Liz (38:49):
Great, great Thank you.
So, listeners, you can always access those
websites or the Instagram on the show notes
too, so they're always in the show notes.
Show notes are always on my website, even
if they're not appearing in your podcast
app Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't
there so you can always go to the website
(39:10):
and look for them there too.
So thank you so much, alison, for sharing
your wisdom with us and telling us about
how this all came to be, and I would think
your enrollment would go up during the
holidays.
Allison (39:24):
Honestly, it's so hard know, it's so much
to navigate.
Dr. Liz (39:31):
Yeah.
Allison (39:32):
I would not be surprised, because we are
getting close.
Dr. Liz (39:35):
Yeah, I know a lot of questions during the
holidays are how do I navigate parties?
I'm seeing this with my own autistic
clients.
How do I navigate holiday parties for
parents of smaller kids, like, how do I
handle the grandparents, or you know aunts
and uncles who are gonna criticize me or
say you should right, you should do this,
(39:57):
you should do that.
Why are you doing that?
Allison (40:00):
you know, make him sit at the dinner table
yes, that's so intense, it's like how am I
supposed to be the one, in those situations,
who stays grounded I know I'm laughing or
my child?
Dr. Liz (40:15):
Exactly.
I'm laughing because it's so difficult, you
know, to navigate those often when people
are expecting things to just be a certain
way and they're not.
They're not Like not for you, not for your
kid or kiddos, yeah.
So that's where the laughter is coming from.
So glad I don't have to do much of that
(40:35):
anymore, as my kids are older now and it's
like they don't want to go, they don't go,
they don't go to the party yeah, absolutely
well, that's that's the thing too, with
with mine, now you with mine, now you know
this.
Allison (40:49):
This is something that we shift into.
It's like Ooh, once you get creative there,
for for us, you know, we've shifted into
what this Thanksgiving coming up, you know
my all the HD son.
It's amazing for him to come and to be a
part and to engage for whatever capacity
you know, whatever amount of time he has.
(41:09):
I mean, what a gift that he's able to show
up and give that part of him to family and
we're letting him bring his Xbox and put it
upstairs and hook it up whenever he needs a
break.
He's got that.
That's already done for him.
He doesn't have to be in that fight or
flight mode Just wondering when he'll be
able to escape, because he has parents who
have done the work and who have done what
(41:30):
it, what it takes to give him just a sense
of safety.
It actually it allows him to to stay
engaged with family for longer, because he
knows, he knows that he can go and have
that permission to go, to go, just be alone,
and decompress so that's kind of what we,
that's what we do in the group.
We really look at like you know how, how,
how important is it that we do to it if the
(41:52):
dread or how do we?
Dr. Liz (41:53):
navigate it, you know how do we, how do we
um ourselves navigate that feeling?
Allison (42:18):
it is a complete, a game changer and
imagining doing something that can be.
We usually use the word provocative right,
so provocative right just to, to tune into
ourselves and to take up a little bit more
space, and it is whenever we've been
programmed to kind of put others before
ourselves or minimize our own needs.
(42:38):
But to do that in isolation.
I mean often, you know our members will
talk about.
I thought of what we talked about last week
and it made it so much more clear in that
moment with my mother-in-law what to do and
that's beautiful.
Dr. Liz (42:57):
Oh yeah, I love it.
That's awesome, anything that's going to
help you with your mother-in-law, right.
Allison (43:02):
Right.
Dr. Liz (43:05):
Yeah, so true.
So again, thank you so much for being here.
Allison (43:10):
Yes, Thank you so much for having me.
This was lovely.
I'm glad to to get to share a little bit
more about something that I think a lot
more people experience than we realize.
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