February 21, 2025 • 41 mins
Dr. Navidi specializes in Hypnosis for GI Disorders and is a wealth of information that he shares with us on the podcast. We talk about:
· Underlying disorders
· ARFID
· How hypnosis works to help people feel better
· Why some sessions are recorded and some are not
· Interactive vs receptive hypnosis
· Advanced hypnosis techniques
· Apps like Nerva and whether they’re helpful
About Dr. Ali Navidi
Dr. Ali Navidi is a licensed clinical psychologist, one of the founders of GI Psychology and one of the founders and past president of the Northern Virginia Society of Clinical Hypnosis (NVSCH). Dr. Navidi has been helping patients with GI disorders, chronic pain and complex medical issues for over ten years for
- Kids, adolescents and adults
- Patients with Gastrointestinal (GI) Problems
- Patients with complex medical issues and chronic pain
- Clinical Hypnosis & Brief Therapy
- Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT)
Get help through Dr. Navidi’s practice for children, adolescents, and adults in the US at https://www.gipsychology.com/
Dr. Liz also offers Gut Directed hypnosis for adults in the US and Internationally. Contact her through her website https://www.drlizhypnosis.com
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Search episodes at the Podcast Page http://bit.ly/HM-podcast
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About Dr. Liz
Interested in hypnosis with Dr. Liz? Schedule your free consultation at https://www.drlizhypnosis.com
Winner of numerous awards including Top 100 Moms in Business, Dr. Liz provides psychotherapy, hypnotherapy, and hypnosis to people wanting a fast, easy way to transform all around the world. She has a PhD in Clinical Psychology, is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor (LMHC) and has special certification in Hypnosis and Hypnotherapy. Specialty areas include Anxiety, Insomnia, and Deeper Emotional Healing.
A problem shared is a problem halved. In person and online hypnosis and CBT for healing and transformation.
Listened to in over 140 countries, Hypnotize Me is the podcast about hypnosis, transformation, and healing. Certified hypnotherapist and Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Dr. Liz Bonet, discusses hypnosis and interviews professionals doing transformational work.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Liz (00:00):
Hi everyone.
Dr Liz here, welcome to the Hypnotize Me
podcast.
I'm glad you're here, glad you're listening
and learning, and hopefully it will help
you with your journey along the way.
I am a psychotherapist with a specialty in
anxiety, insomnia and deeper emotional
healing.
Hypnosis is one of the tools in my toolbox
(00:21):
that I use to help people feel better and
help people is one of the tools in my
toolbox that I use to help people feel
better and help people be better.
I do work all over the world.
Please feel free to reach out and contact
me if you would like some help.
I've been an entrepreneur for most of my
adult life, built an award-winning company,
sold it and then focused mainly on my
private practice.
(00:42):
That gives you a unique perspective,
especially my ability to work with people
in business at all kinds of levels.
Before I go, if you'd like to support the
podcast, you can go and subscribe to the
newsletter and you'll get free hypnosis
downloads that you can listen to
immediately.
Another way is to buy one of the downloads
(01:03):
that I have for sale.
I only have a couple up there, but they're
good ones.
They've stood the test of time.
I made the decision to not run ads during
my podcast because I really do see it as an
act of service.
I completely respect people who do have ads
on their podcast, but it's just not my path.
All right, everyone enjoy the episode and I
(01:36):
hope to see you back here soon.
Hey everyone.
Dr Liz here, the podcast has been on a bit
of a break because I moved from South
Florida the Fort Lauderdale area, which is
just north of Miami to North Florida,
jacksonville, which is right south of
(01:58):
Georgia.
So it's been a huge move for me.
I've been in South Florida 30 plus years
and so this was a big change I was making.
So the last couple of weeks I've been
unpacking at my old house, unpacking in the
new house, setting up the home office.
(02:20):
I found it was quite echoey so I had to
order some acoustic tiles to like put on
the walls and carpet for the floor and try
to make it to where it was not so echoey.
When I recorded I really thought I might
have to record in my closet, which a lot of
podcasters do.
That would not really be a problem, but it
(02:41):
is more convenient to be able to record at
my desk rather than the closet.
So the interview today is with Dr Navidi,
who is a specialist in hypnosis for GI
disorders, functional abdominal pain, ibs.
We have a great conversation because I've
been doing hypnosis for IBS abdominal
(03:05):
functional pain, reflux, those types of
disorders for probably five years now,
maybe six, maybe a little bit longer than
that, I'm not sure.
It's not a huge percentage of my practice,
but I definitely have people that come in
for it from time to time.
Right now I'm all virtual, but in the past
it's been in person as well, but it's
(03:26):
always an interesting part of my practice
and I love helping people that way.
And his whole practice is focused on that.
He has quite a large practice and they see
people in all 50 states, which is fantastic.
And they see adults and children and
adolescents, which is also great.
(03:48):
Adults and children and adolescents, which
is also great.
I only see adults.
So what a great resource.
So we talk about all kinds of stuff during
this interview, like what types of hypnosis
to do and when to seek treatment with
hypnosis.
That's always a big question, like when do
you try that?
Often it's when people have tried
everything else.
Sometimes they come in a little bit earlier
than that.
One patient I had is referred by the head
(04:10):
of Stanford's clinic because it's such a
reputable treatment hypnosis for IBS but
often you'll run into GI specialists who
just poo-poo it, who, like quote unquote,
don't believe in it.
And it's like look, hypnosis is not a
faith-based medicine.
It is well-researched and someone doesn't
(04:31):
have to believe in hypnosis for it to work
either.
So anyway, occasionally you run into
doctors like that.
The more knowledgeable ones typically
recommend hypnosis as part of someone's
treatment.
I've talked way too long today, so let's
jump into the interview.
I hope you're healthy and safe.
Peace.
(04:54):
Hi, dr Navidi.
Welcome to the Hypnotize Me podcast.
Dr. Navidi (05:00):
Hi, good to meet you.
I'm glad to be here.
I'm always happy to talk hypnosis with
someone.
Dr. Liz (05:05):
Yep, me too, me too.
It's always a fascinating conversation, I
will say so.
We're going to just start with how you
first became a psychologist and then also
how you started doing hypnosis.
Dr. Navidi (05:18):
Yeah, so I was a microbiology major.
Really, I was a microbiology major.
Dr. Liz (05:23):
Really.
Dr. Navidi (05:24):
And then I did biotech work for a few years
at a couple companies.
I remember I was doing yeast exocytosis
research, yeah, I don't even know what that
is really.
I don't even think I know what it is
(05:44):
anymore either.
I think it had something to do with a
vesicle or something.
Anyway, luckily and I was about to go and
do my do like a PhD in biochemistry,
because I just didn't want to be a lab
monkey for the rest of my life you got to
get your PhD.
So luckily I've got a wife that's a lot
(06:05):
smarter than me and she kind of sat me down
and was like, look, you might want to
consider doing something you actually
really are passionate about.
She knew I was just constantly reading
books about hypnosis, about psychology, and
just practicing on anyone around me.
(06:27):
So luckily, I listened to her and, long
story short, I shifted over and now I'm a
clinical psychologist.
Dr. Liz (06:35):
Wonderful.
So I know.
For me going through grad school, I didn't
actually discover hypnosis until I don't
know like 20 years out of grad school
actually.
So it sounds like for you it happened
before you went to grad school.
Dr. Navidi (06:51):
Yeah, it was interesting.
When I think back, I actually I think as a
teenager I found this.
I just remember it was like this little
black book and it was old school hypnosis,
like really directive stuff was written in
maybe the sixties or seventies and and it
(07:12):
was a family vacation and I got all my
cousins and my sisters together and one by
one, I just tried the stuff in the book,
just just for the heck of it, and it worked
on some and it didn't work on others.
Dr. Liz (07:27):
But that was probably my first experience
with it, that is yeah and did you go to a
program that um taught hypnosis like mine?
Didn't even I.
There was not a class.
I know there wasn't.
Dr. Navidi (07:39):
No, no, no not at all, not at all.
My first internship.
It was interesting.
I wasn't like the, the supervisor.
He actually was trained in hypnosis and
told me that I wasn't allowed to do
hypnosis.
Dr. Liz (07:57):
Yeah, probably Right.
Because, there's all kinds of regulations
around it for psychologists.
There's actually more for psychologists
than there are someone who doesn't have a
degree.
Dr. Navidi (08:08):
Yeah, oh yeah.
Yeah, someone who doesn't have a degree can
just do a weekend training and put out a
shingle Right.
But but no, so I was.
I got involved with the American society
for clinical hypnosis, ash.
I saw that you also have been associated
(08:30):
with them and they do some great training.
So I was doing as much ASH training as I
could, and I still do so.
I think they're a great organization.
Dr. Liz (08:42):
They are and for the listeners they're a
wonderful way to actually find an hypnosis
practitioner.
They have a tab on their website where you
could find someone in your state, close to
you, probably, depending on where you are.
But yeah, they're a really good resource.
Dr. Navidi (09:01):
Yeah, they are.
Dr. Liz (09:03):
So then, how did you start specializing in
IBS?
Dr. Navidi (09:08):
Yeah, it was an Ash training and I wish I
remember the name of the guy.
He worked out of NIH and he did a talk and
at least part of the talk was on IBS,
hypnosis for IBS and at the time, hypnosis
for.
Ibs and at the time I remember thinking I'm
(09:29):
never going to use this, Like I wasn't
really doing a specialty in health psych.
but you know I learned it.
And then I had a patient that had responded
already well to hypnosis and and had IBS
and I said, well, you know you want to try
this out.
And they did.
They knew I hadn't done it before, they
knew I'd been trained.
So I gave it a shot.
(09:50):
It worked great.
And you know that led to another and
another and, and as I'm kind of doing it
more, I'm learning, I'm reading as much as
I can.
I tried, you know, finding other trainings.
And then the doctors in the area, the
gastroenterologists, start kind of knowing
(10:10):
me and referring more and more patients and
before I know it, it's like 80% of my
practice that chronic pain and chronic pain
yeah.
You know, you know, you just end up with a
lot of complex medical cases, yes and uh,
and throughout it I kind of developed my
(10:30):
own way of of doing it.
Dr. Liz (10:32):
I was gonna ask you do you?
Did you start out with the palson protocol
um, or one of the manchesters, or no?
Dr. Navidi (10:41):
no, you didn't I didn't, I just um.
I kind of learned some of the principles
from the training I did and then just kind
of came up with the rest on my own, and
that's I mean I believe in learning the
right way, but my personality is I always
kind of come up with my own little twist on
(11:01):
things.
Dr. Liz (11:02):
Creative, then it's a creative process.
Dr. Navidi (11:06):
Yeah, very much so.
It's very in the moment kind of adapting
things, but that's just my personal style.
Dr. Liz (11:14):
Yes, I have a mentor who, when I first
started doing hypnosis, I actually met him
at a conference, florida Society of
Clinical Hypnosis, which is a state
subsidiary of ASH, which we just talked
about and you know, funnily enough it's
called FISH, right.
But I met him there and he quickly asked me
(11:40):
he's like are you what happens when you
read a script?
And I said I almost always end up changing
it somehow, like I can never read a script
like completely as it's written all the way
through.
He's like okay, so that means like you're
more on the creative side, like it's a
creative, intuitive process, and he really
affirmed that that that's okay.
(12:00):
You know that that's actually a really
beneficial process because you're in his
perspective, you're tuning into the client.
That's what you're doing and what that
client really needs, and I do.
The Palson Protocol, which is a protocol
for the listeners developed out of
University of North Carolina, chapel Hill.
There's a lot of research on it out of the
medical school there.
(12:21):
So they even took tissue samples of the
bowel for the hypnosis versus the
non-hypnosis group and the bowel tissue
changes, which is amazing.
Like I you know I don't even understand how
all that works really, but I know it does
and so I definitely use that protocol.
But at the same time I've had many cases
(12:44):
where I adapted it to really what the
client needed and is going through, and for
reflex as well.
So it started out strictly for IBS, but I
think they even did research about adapting
it for reflex and had incredible success
with that.
Like people who are not eating anything
(13:05):
like felt like their diet was so limited,
able to eat chocolate again and have coffee
and spicy food.
I remember one client who she emailed me
later in the week this is after working
with her for a while, a couple months or so
and she said I had Thai food.
I'm so excited, like it's amazing, the
(13:29):
difference it can make for people.
I'm sure you have similar experiences, for
that.
Dr. Navidi (13:34):
Yeah, so um.
So once so at a certain point in my career,
you know I had this specialty and I
realized that you know I'm in the DC metro
area and there's nobody else on an
outpatient basis who could see, um, see
kids and adolescents uh, gi with GI issues,
(13:59):
and knew how to use hypnosis, like put
those three together and there was nobody
there.
Yeah, um, and actually, by the way, um, I
helped found the, um, the Northern Virginia
chapter, which which once I I guess, um,
eventually they've kind of broken up, but
it was after I stopped having time to
(14:20):
really participate.
Dr. Liz (14:21):
Yeah.
Dr. Navidi (14:23):
So so long story short, I eventually
started this bigger practice.
Gi psychology uh.
And it's goes by the same website, just G I
psychologycom, and the whole idea was that
there aren't enough people trained to do
this kind of gut brain therapy For sure,
and so that's what we want to do.
So I'm in charge of training, so at this
(14:45):
point I've trained maybe 15, 20 people on
this stuff.
I rely heavily on the Paulson.
I feel like it's a good like training
wheels for people when they're getting
started, you know, and then, as they get
more experience, they can start modifying
it and kind of going off script, but it's,
(15:07):
it's like a safe place for them to come
back to you know when they when they're
unsure about something.
And now Paulson has retired but he's
actually gonna work with us on a study
Awesome that's awesome.
Dr. Liz (15:23):
What's the study gonna be?
Dr. Navidi (15:25):
I think it's just looking at the results of
his protocol like out in the wild, so not
in a controlled like kind of university
medical center situation, but out in the
outpatient world where things get more
complicated yeah.
Dr. Liz (15:44):
Awesome, that's great, great.
Oh, I'll be so interested to hear the
results of that.
Eventually, I'm sure it'll get published.
Dr. Navidi (15:54):
Yeah, with his name on it, of course.
Dr. Liz (15:57):
That's a nice look up, huh.
Dr. Navidi (15:59):
Yeah, it is, and he's such a nice guy.
He's hilarious.
If you ever get a chance to hear him speak,
he's the funniest guy and just really knows
his stuff when it comes to hypnosis.
Dr. Liz (16:10):
I did attend a webinar of his and, yeah, he
was excellent.
It's always nicer when someone's funny
during the presentation or relatable
Totally.
Yeah, it makes it more tolerable.
No one wants to sit through a boring
webinar right when someone's just reading
slides or something.
Dr. Navidi (16:30):
Oh yeah, those are the worst.
Dr. Liz (16:32):
They are yeah.
So how did you get connected with him?
Did you just reach out?
Dr. Navidi (16:38):
Let's see, I think we were at I think it
was DDW, so that's like digestive disease
week, it's like the big gastroenterological
conference and within that they were having
like a little side training for GI
(16:58):
psychologists.
Dr. Liz (16:59):
Okay.
Dr. Navidi (17:00):
And he was doing kind of this.
He was part of a panel of like four people
who were doing specific GI related hypnosis
topics.
Dr. Liz (17:10):
Got it Okay.
Dr. Navidi (17:11):
And so that's how we met him and then we
just kind of kept in touch and it was my
business partner.
She co-founded GI Psychology with me.
She was the one that just approached him
and started chatting and it turned out he
was interested in working together.
Dr. Liz (17:29):
Great, great.
So you serve the Washington DC area and
you're doing in person, I'm assuming.
Dr. Navidi (17:36):
So if you're talking about GI psychology,
the bigger practice we're completely
telehealth and we're in all 50 states.
Dr. Liz (17:44):
All 50 states be part of PSYPACT or we can
do that with hypnosis.
Dr. Navidi (17:50):
No, no, no, no.
This is.
This is again my partner cause.
She does the operation side of the business.
She figured out between side pack and then
getting individual licenses for states.
She managed to cobble together all 50
states so we're able to see patients.
Dr. Liz (18:09):
Incredible.
So for the listener side, psypac is a.
Typically, when you're licensed as a
psychologist, you're licensed in a
particular state, meaning like you cannot
practice in another state.
Each state has their own licensing.
It depends on the state.
Sometimes it's very difficult to get
licensed in another state that you want to
(18:29):
practice in.
It's actually been a historical problem.
When people want to move, it restricts them
often from moving.
So there was an organization that came up
and said hey, let's find a solution to this
and you can join this compact organization
and it'll let you practice in other states
(18:50):
without having to be licensed in that state.
Now hypnosis, I've known, is a loophole
often in the licensing laws where you can
often practice in another state.
Sometimes you have to register with them,
do something like that, but it's not
strictly like I can't do psychotherapy in
another state that I'm not licensed in, but
(19:12):
I could do some hypnosis actually.
So it's sort of a gray area there.
Dr. Navidi (19:15):
And for us, we're always doing our hypnosis
within psychotherapy, you know.
But you could do hypnosis outside of
psychotherapy exactly like you're saying.
That's true.
Dr. Liz (19:30):
Yes, that's a fantastic resource.
My own daughter, my 18-year-old has some
significant GI issues and luckily I know
someone who specializes in that and she
happens to be in Florida.
But you are right, I live in a huge area
South Florida, Miami-Dade, Broward County
(19:50):
and there's no one here that really does
that, so that's an incredible resource for
people.
If you're listening to this and either
yourself or you have a kid who's going
through it and you don't really know how to
help them, so that's fantastic.
Oh, so happy to hear that.
Dr. Navidi (20:07):
And that's the message I you know.
That's why I'm doing podcasts and stuff
like that.
The message I want to get out there is A if
you have these disorders, and if you're
talking about just IBS, one in 10 people
have it.
If you're talking about the broader what's
called disorders of gut brain interaction,
(20:28):
or used to be called functional GI
disorders, which include like dyspepsia,
nausea, vomiting, all kinds of disorders
40% of people at some point in their life
are going to have one of those disorders,
so they are insanely common.
Dr. Liz (20:45):
I did not know.
Is that high?
That's incredibly high, do you think it's?
Dr. Navidi (20:52):
the same in Italy.
When you look at the worldwide data, it
holds true.
Wow, okay.
Dr. Liz (20:58):
You know how they always say like the
Italian diet is so much better.
I'm like is that?
A function of being in the US or that's
worldwide data.
Dr. Navidi (21:06):
No, it's worldwide.
And here's the thing.
It's not really caused by so much what we
eat.
It's caused by that interaction between our
brain and our gut.
Now we might have other problems because of
what we eat.
You know what I mean.
But these aren't necessarily caused by the
(21:26):
food that we eat.
But they can be exacerbated by the food
Once we have one of these disorders of
gut-brain interaction.
Dr. Liz (21:35):
What do you think the underpinnings are?
Dr. Navidi (21:38):
I would say essentially, like the metaphor
I use with a lot of patients is, if you had
a computer, this would be a software
problem versus a hardware problem.
So someone with these problems is going to
go into the doctor and you probably know it
from your daughter.
They're going to get checked out, they're
going to be potentially scoped and they're
not going to find anything wrong
(22:00):
structurally.
But the problem is how the central nervous
system is interacting with the enteric
nervous system.
Now, who tends to get these disorders?
Often it's patients with anxiety.
Now, who tends to get these disorders?
Often it's patients with anxiety, patients
who have a history of trauma, have a
history or currently have an eating
(22:21):
disorder, and then, finally, patients that
are on the spectrum.
Those are the four groups that get it more
often, even though more people than that
can get it, of course.
So if we think about that, I suspect that
the fundamental underpinning of the problem
is when we start to fear our own body's
(22:42):
reactions to things.
Right, there's a very frequent pattern that
you see where somebody gets sick and then,
after they're done being sick, they still
have symptoms.
Dr. Liz (22:56):
Yes.
Dr. Navidi (22:57):
And so what can often happen?
I think they almost call it.
They call it like the PTSD of the gut.
Dr. Liz (23:03):
Oh, I love that.
So accurate to you.
I just want to say like, yes, love it.
Yeah, my daughter is on the spectrum and I
I know there's overlap between GI and she
was diagnosed with gastritis so they did
scope her and actually find something.
But it's the PTSD around food, around like
(23:25):
is that going to make me sick?
Like I don't know if I can eat that, Like
yeah, and it can evolve into an eating
disorder if it's not really addressed Yep.
Dr. Navidi (23:36):
ARFID.
If you're familiar with ARFID, it's
avoidant, restrictive food intake disorder.
For people listening.
Dr. Liz (23:43):
Yes, and these are not people who are
trying to lose weight by restricting their
diet.
They are scared.
They are scared to eat something because it
may land them in the bathroom or make them
sick, nauseous, vomiting, that type of
thing.
So they start to restrict what they can eat
and develop this very personal list of safe,
(24:06):
quote unquote foods.
But then what happens is it evolves into
like nutritional deficiencies if it's not
really handled and it's a hard one, you
know.
I ordered the book, the CBTI for ARFID.
Yeah, and basically it says like one, it's
pretty much the only one on the market
that's even written.
Two, there's not a whole lot of research on
(24:27):
it.
And three, they're like well, we're
shooting in the dark here, you know, like
really.
Dr. Navidi (24:33):
And frequently there's.
From what we've seen, there's two major
paths to ARFID.
Right, there's.
One is the sensory path.
Yes, and you see this with a lot of
patients on the spectrum.
They're very sensitive to textures and
tastes and you know, and they go, they can
develop ARFID through that route.
Then the other route is the fear-based
(24:54):
route.
Yeah, right, they're afraid that it's going
to cause some reaction in their gut, either
pain or nausea or vomiting.
Sometimes it's even combined with
emetophobia, where people have an intense
fear of vomiting.
Oh yeah, so hard they develop similar
problems.
Yeah, yeah, they can develop similar
problems.
Dr. Liz (25:13):
Yeah, yeah, and I think with IBS as well.
People start to try to develop like what
can I eat, what can I not eat?
Dr. Navidi (25:22):
That type of thing.
Dr. Liz (25:23):
Yes, yeah.
Dr. Navidi (25:25):
And the thing is they develop all these
like safe or unsafe foods, but most of the
time it's actually not the food, because
what will happen is, you know, and you know
this as a psychologist they're just having
a bad day and they eat some pizza.
Yeah, right, and so they're.
Then they're thinking huh did, did my
(25:46):
stomach pain?
Was that caused by the pizza?
So then next time they have pizza, they go
into it with with a little bit of fear.
Yes, and guess what?
That fear feeds down the gut-brain axis and
causes more symptoms.
Yes, and so when they eat that pizza,
they're getting more symptoms.
And now they're sure that pizza is bad for
(26:07):
them.
So then every time they eat pizza in the
future, they do it with a sense of doom.
Dr. Liz (26:13):
Yes.
Dr. Navidi (26:13):
They know they're going to have a problem
and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Dr. Liz (26:18):
Yes, right, or they stop eating pizza
completely.
Dr. Navidi (26:22):
Oh well, yeah, I'm not eating the pizza.
Dr. Liz (26:24):
Yeah, it's just not happening.
Yes, yeah, and part of the hypnosis
protocol for them is to help them relax
around food and have them eat a more varied
diet and one that's like satisfying to them
as well, but it does calm down all the
(26:44):
symptoms.
So how long do you typically work with
someone before?
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Navidi (26:51):
So I would say that for me personally it
tends to be rather fast when we're treating
the, the, the GI issue.
So if it's IBS or something like that like
I've got a patient right now and they're
responding well and I'm guessing it's going
to probably be around five or six sessions
(27:13):
and they can be done with their, their DGBI.
The reason I like this work so much, you
know cause sometimes psychologists look at
me a little funny when I say that I'm
specializing in this.
But what I really like about it is it's not
too hard to treat the GI issue, but then
you've got so much therapeutic trust and
(27:35):
momentum that you can also treat what's
often an underlying disorder, which might
be anxiety, it might be depression, it
might be trauma, but there's such a good
relationship there that it's easy to get
that treated.
And often they might not have been willing
to get that treated before.
True, they got that help for the GI problem.
Dr. Liz (27:58):
Yeah, very true, very true.
I love that, it's a very nice way to put it.
And are you seeing them on a weekly basis,
every other week, or is it really
individual?
Dr. Navidi (28:10):
I typically will try to see them weekly
when they start, but if you know, sometimes
people for finances or schedule they need
every other week and I think that's fine.
I don't like to go less than that, yeah me
neither.
Dr. Liz (28:25):
Yeah, I won't actually do it if someone
wants less than that.
Yeah.
Dr. Navidi (28:29):
It's hard to get momentum when it's that
far apart.
You know three weeks, four weeks, things
like that.
Dr. Liz (28:35):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, when someone's been in
therapy with me and they feel like they're
well on their way and they want some
maintenance, then occasionally I'll do that,
but I will not start that way.
It's, yeah, there's not enough momentum.
It's like taking a quarter of an antibiotic
and expecting it to work.
Dr. Navidi (28:55):
That's a great metaphor.
I like it.
Dr. Liz (28:57):
Yeah.
Dr. Navidi (28:58):
Yeah, but related to that, when we look at
the data from our clinic because we've got
10 therapists now trained up I'd say the
average for something like IBS is around 10
sessions, Okay, Like 10 to 14 sessions,
because I think what happens is often
(29:18):
there's something else pops up, right Like
you're treating the IBS and they're like
hey, these panic attacks are really bumming
me out and so you might do a session or two
help with that and then go back to the GI
Got it.
Dr. Liz (29:33):
Are you recording the sessions for them
Like do you send them home with a recording
or yeah.
Dr. Navidi (29:37):
So I would say the the majority of our
therapists.
They will record um and they'll send them
with a recording.
I don't always record um because some of my
hypnosis sessions are not well adapted for
that Meaning.
I like to sometimes do a very interactive
(29:58):
hypnosis where I'm talking to them
throughout or there's ideomotor signals or
something like that.
That doesn't really lend itself to being
recorded and repeated.
Dr. Liz (30:09):
Correct, yeah, agreed.
Dr. Navidi (30:11):
But often, like I'll find out, we'll find
out something that works for someone and
it'll be very interactive, and then the
next session I'll do another version of it
without any interaction, just doing the
thing we know worked.
And then we record that and we give it to
them.
Dr. Liz (30:28):
Okay, got it.
So when you're doing the more interactive
session, what are you exploring?
Dr. Navidi (30:38):
interactive session.
Are you?
What are you exploring?
Yeah, so sometimes it's just something as
simple as you know.
Let me know when you notice that cool
feeling you know in your stomach, or you
know, let me nod your head when you know
this happens or that happens.
Sometimes it's more.
I would consider more advanced techniques,
kind of like exploratory.
(31:09):
So we might be, you know, like
investigating how the problem started.
Looking at internal emotional conflicts,
are you familiar with Dabney Ewan's book
Idiomotor Signals?
Yeah For rapid hypnoanalysis.
Dr. Liz (31:19):
I love that book.
Dr. Navidi (31:20):
Yes, Me too.
Dr. Liz (31:24):
And I actually saw him before he passed
away.
I attended a seminar of his yeah.
Dr. Navidi (31:28):
Oh, I would have loved to meet him.
Dr. Liz (31:30):
Talk about fun.
I mean, kept you on the edge of your seat
and this is like a two-day seminar of you
know.
We start at nine, we have a lunch break and
we end at like five or something.
And I mean, yeah, notebooks full of notes
from him.
He's incredible, he was incredible.
(31:51):
He sadly passed away a couple of years ago,
but, yeah, his book is fantastic as well.
Dr. Navidi (31:52):
Yeah, it's so well done and I've read a lot
of hypnosis books and it's such an
accessible book.
He basically gives you a flow chart for how
to do this.
Really, some can be very complicated,
nuanced work and he gives you this great
(32:13):
flow chart for how to do it.
And I love his acronym I still use the
compass C-O-M-P-I-S-S to, like you know, as
exploring it.
So for people listening that it's, it's a,
it's a.
It was originally developed, I think
(32:33):
earlier, by another clinician named Cheek.
I can't remember his full name, but they
called it the seven keys, the seven keys
for psychosomatic disorders.
So it's like internal conflict, organ
language, motivation, past experience,
identity, I think, self-suggestion or
(32:54):
suggestion and then self-punishment.
I think those are the seven and exploring
that.
It just blows my mind still the stuff you
find when you go in there and look for that
stuff.
Dr. Liz (33:07):
Yes, I usually use guides on my Kindle and
so I have his seven questions and sometimes,
when I get stuck with a client, I will go
to his seven questions to ask.
That are asking like was this suggested by
someone in authority?
Is this related to something in your past.
(33:27):
Like you know, it is very well laid out,
but you're right, it is more of an advanced
technique of um in someone who's willing to
do that.
Work with you too.
Not everyone's really willing to do that.
Dr. Navidi (33:41):
Yeah, and I usually my philosophies.
I like to start at the more surface level,
like if we can solve this problem directly
with just direct suggestion.
Great, you know, you're in're, in, you're
out, you're done you know, it's for the
people that don't tend to respond to those
(34:01):
direct suggestions in the way that they
would like that I often will then switch
over to the more exploratory methods yeah,
same here.
Dr. Liz (34:10):
I'm always like look, if we can get this,
if you don't need the deeper methods, we
don't do them.
Yeah you know let's, yeah, let's start here,
and then only if we can get this, if you
don't need the deeper methods, we don't do
them.
You know let's, yeah, let's start here, and
then only if we need them do we go there.
Yeah, so when should someone consider
hypnosis if they have a GI disorder?
Dr. Navidi (34:25):
So if they've got a GI disorder, you know
they're noticing pain or nausea or
something, of course, go to your primary
care.
You know, do the tests and, more likely
than not, the test will show that there is
not a significant structural component.
And if that's the case, then I would
suggest, you know, reaching out to us, you
(34:46):
know, or reaching out to someone in your
area that's trained in hypnosis and trained
in working with GI, cause not every, not
every, person who's trained in hypnosis
knows how to work with IBS or functional
dyspepsia.
Dr. Liz (35:00):
No, it's a small percentage actually.
Who knows how to do that?
Who has the both?
Dr. Navidi (35:05):
Yes, exactly, exactly, and that's the thing.
That's why we, you know, created, you know,
gi psychology.
It's just it's so rare Like literally GI
psychology, it's just it's so rare Like
literally, I think, the latest, numbers
were there are 500 trained gut brain
therapists in the world, that's probably
(35:25):
more than that.
Yeah, you know, maybe you could double that
and be generous.
Say there's a thousand in the world but
still that's not a lot.
That's not a lot.
That's ridiculously low compared to how
many people have these problems.
Dr. Liz (35:39):
Yeah, absolutely it is.
So do you ever suggest someone try apps
first, like there's the Nerva app?
Dr. Navidi (35:48):
Yeah.
Dr. Liz (35:49):
You do.
Dr. Navidi (35:49):
Well, it depends.
I think Nerva is good.
What they've done is solid.
Simone Peters is the one who created their
IBS section.
She's in Australia and she knows her stuff
and they've done studies to show that it
helps apt.
(36:10):
They have a really poor follow-through rate.
People tend to do a few sessions and then
basically give up, and there's all kinds of
different limitations.
But I think if somebody just wants to give
things a try and they want a low cost entry
(36:32):
into it, I think something like Nerva is a
great way to start.
Dr. Liz (36:36):
Yeah, I think the same thing.
But the biggest limitation is that there's
no way an app could customize to you what
you really need, and so when you see a
trained hypnotherapist specializes in this
area, we know how to do that.
We know how to adapt to you area.
Dr. Navidi (36:57):
We know how to do that.
We know how to adapt to you Absolutely and
and it's like it's going to be a while till
till.
An app, can you know pace it to.
You know, like, take a little longer if you
can tell they need to go, you know they
need that extra time to kind of sink in or
speed it up If you know they're already
where they need to be.
You know, like, even just the pacing and
then using language that that really
(37:19):
resonates with them and using metaphors
that resonate with them.
Dr. Liz (37:23):
Yes, so true, yeah, yeah.
Well, you have given us some great
information about hypnosis and GI disorders
and some eating disorders too, arfid, so I
really appreciate you being here today.
Can you please tell people again how to
find your practice and how to get connected
(37:44):
and get some help that they want?
Dr. Navidi (37:47):
Sure thing.
So it's just gipsychologycom, really simple.
It's gipsychologycom, really simple.
We've got a free 15-minute consult with a
(38:10):
clinically trained person who will answer
people's questions and help them figure out
if this is the right thing for them.
We're available in all 50 states.
Oh, I didn't mention this is pretty cool.
We partner with all these organizations.
So so we're partnered with Crohn's and
colitis foundation and the American college
of gastroenterology you know Georgetown in
in my area.
Medstar scripts on the web, so it's like
(38:31):
probably about 20 different organizations.
The Mayo clinic we're partnered with and
we're their kind of GI psychology support
Fantastic.
Dr. Liz (38:43):
What about outside of the US?
Do you take?
Dr. Navidi (38:48):
international clients we haven't quite
figured out.
We've had a few patients over the years
that were outside the United States, but we
haven't explored it as a general practice.
We haven't gone out and made ourselves
available, but as far as I can tell, it
seems to be a very similar problem outside
(39:09):
of the United States too.
There just aren't a lot of trained people
out there who understand how to do this
work.
Dr. Liz (39:16):
Okay, got it All right.
Just asking because I know people out there
who understand how to do this work.
Okay, got it All right.
Just asking Cause I know people all over
the world listen to the podcast, so I want
them to be able to have the resource, and
I've worked with clients all over the world
as well.
I I will say that, like Asia and Australia
is really difficult for me because of the
time difference.
Yes, you get into like 12, 13 hour time
(39:36):
differences.
But Europe, South America yeah, that's all
pretty easy yeah.
Dr. Navidi (39:43):
Yeah.
Dr. Liz (39:43):
But thank you so much for being here and
sharing your wisdom.
Dr. Navidi (39:47):
Oh, my pleasure it was.
It was a real pleasure talking with you and
it sounds like we have a lot of very
similar interests in terms of hypnosis and
probably know a lot of the same people.
I look forward to maybe meeting you in
person at one of the ASH conferences once
they start getting back to in person.
Dr. Liz (40:07):
Yeah, hopefully, hopefully we'll meet up
sometime.
Dr. Navidi (40:10):
Yeah, that would be great.
Well, it was a pleasure talking with you,
thank you.
Dr. Liz (40:49):
I hope you truly enjoyed today's episode.
Remember that you can get free hypnosis
downloads over at my website,
drlizhypnosiscom D-R-L-I-Z-hypnosiscom.
I work all over the world doing hypnosis,
so if you're interested in working with me,
please schedule a free consultation over at
(41:10):
my website and we'll see what your goals
are and if I can be of service to you in
helping you reach them.
Finally, if you liked today's episode,
please subscribe to the podcast or tell a
friend.
That way, more and more people learn about
the power of hypnosis.
All right, everyone, have a wonderful week,
peace.
(41:32):
This podcast is not mental health treatment,
nor should it replace mental health
treatment.
If you need therapy or hypnotherapy, please
seek treatment from a trained professional.
Hi everyone.
Dr Liz here, welcome to the Hypnotize Me
podcast.
I'm glad you're here, glad you're listening
and learning, and hopefully it will help
you with your journey along the way.
I am a psychotherapist with a specialty in
anxiety, insomnia and deeper emotional
healing.
Hypnosis is one of the tools in my toolbox
(00:21):
that I use to help people feel better and
help people is one of the tools in my
toolbox that I use to help people feel
better and help people be better.
I do work all over the world.
Please feel free to reach out and contact
me if you would like some help.
I've been an entrepreneur for most of my
adult life, built an award-winning company,
sold it and then focused mainly on my
private practice.
(00:42):
That gives you a unique perspective,
especially my ability to work with people
in business at all kinds of levels.
Before I go, if you'd like to support the
podcast, you can go and subscribe to the
newsletter and you'll get free hypnosis
downloads that you can listen to
immediately.
Another way is to buy one of the downloads
(01:03):
that I have for sale.
I only have a couple up there, but they're
good ones.
They've stood the test of time.
I made the decision to not run ads during
my podcast because I really do see it as an
act of service.
I completely respect people who do have ads
on their podcast, but it's just not my path.
All right, everyone enjoy the episode and I
(01:36):
hope to see you back here soon.
Hey everyone.
Dr Liz here, the podcast has been on a bit
of a break because I moved from South
Florida the Fort Lauderdale area, which is
just north of Miami to North Florida,
jacksonville, which is right south of
(01:58):
Georgia.
So it's been a huge move for me.
I've been in South Florida 30 plus years
and so this was a big change I was making.
So the last couple of weeks I've been
unpacking at my old house, unpacking in the
new house, setting up the home office.
(02:20):
I found it was quite echoey so I had to
order some acoustic tiles to like put on
the walls and carpet for the floor and try
to make it to where it was not so echoey.
When I recorded I really thought I might
have to record in my closet, which a lot of
podcasters do.
That would not really be a problem, but it
(02:41):
is more convenient to be able to record at
my desk rather than the closet.
So the interview today is with Dr Navidi,
who is a specialist in hypnosis for GI
disorders, functional abdominal pain, ibs.
We have a great conversation because I've
been doing hypnosis for IBS abdominal
(03:05):
functional pain, reflux, those types of
disorders for probably five years now,
maybe six, maybe a little bit longer than
that, I'm not sure.
It's not a huge percentage of my practice,
but I definitely have people that come in
for it from time to time.
Right now I'm all virtual, but in the past
it's been in person as well, but it's
(03:26):
always an interesting part of my practice
and I love helping people that way.
And his whole practice is focused on that.
He has quite a large practice and they see
people in all 50 states, which is fantastic.
And they see adults and children and
adolescents, which is also great.
(03:48):
Adults and children and adolescents, which
is also great.
I only see adults.
So what a great resource.
So we talk about all kinds of stuff during
this interview, like what types of hypnosis
to do and when to seek treatment with
hypnosis.
That's always a big question, like when do
you try that?
Often it's when people have tried
everything else.
Sometimes they come in a little bit earlier
than that.
One patient I had is referred by the head
(04:10):
of Stanford's clinic because it's such a
reputable treatment hypnosis for IBS but
often you'll run into GI specialists who
just poo-poo it, who, like quote unquote,
don't believe in it.
And it's like look, hypnosis is not a
faith-based medicine.
It is well-researched and someone doesn't
(04:31):
have to believe in hypnosis for it to work
either.
So anyway, occasionally you run into
doctors like that.
The more knowledgeable ones typically
recommend hypnosis as part of someone's
treatment.
I've talked way too long today, so let's
jump into the interview.
I hope you're healthy and safe.
Peace.
(04:54):
Hi, dr Navidi.
Welcome to the Hypnotize Me podcast.
Dr. Navidi (05:00):
Hi, good to meet you.
I'm glad to be here.
I'm always happy to talk hypnosis with
someone.
Dr. Liz (05:05):
Yep, me too, me too.
It's always a fascinating conversation, I
will say so.
We're going to just start with how you
first became a psychologist and then also
how you started doing hypnosis.
Dr. Navidi (05:18):
Yeah, so I was a microbiology major.
Really, I was a microbiology major.
Dr. Liz (05:23):
Really.
Dr. Navidi (05:24):
And then I did biotech work for a few years
at a couple companies.
I remember I was doing yeast exocytosis
research, yeah, I don't even know what that
is really.
I don't even think I know what it is
(05:44):
anymore either.
I think it had something to do with a
vesicle or something.
Anyway, luckily and I was about to go and
do my do like a PhD in biochemistry,
because I just didn't want to be a lab
monkey for the rest of my life you got to
get your PhD.
So luckily I've got a wife that's a lot
(06:05):
smarter than me and she kind of sat me down
and was like, look, you might want to
consider doing something you actually
really are passionate about.
She knew I was just constantly reading
books about hypnosis, about psychology, and
just practicing on anyone around me.
(06:27):
So luckily, I listened to her and, long
story short, I shifted over and now I'm a
clinical psychologist.
Dr. Liz (06:35):
Wonderful.
So I know.
For me going through grad school, I didn't
actually discover hypnosis until I don't
know like 20 years out of grad school
actually.
So it sounds like for you it happened
before you went to grad school.
Dr. Navidi (06:51):
Yeah, it was interesting.
When I think back, I actually I think as a
teenager I found this.
I just remember it was like this little
black book and it was old school hypnosis,
like really directive stuff was written in
maybe the sixties or seventies and and it
(07:12):
was a family vacation and I got all my
cousins and my sisters together and one by
one, I just tried the stuff in the book,
just just for the heck of it, and it worked
on some and it didn't work on others.
Dr. Liz (07:27):
But that was probably my first experience
with it, that is yeah and did you go to a
program that um taught hypnosis like mine?
Didn't even I.
There was not a class.
I know there wasn't.
Dr. Navidi (07:39):
No, no, no not at all, not at all.
My first internship.
It was interesting.
I wasn't like the, the supervisor.
He actually was trained in hypnosis and
told me that I wasn't allowed to do
hypnosis.
Dr. Liz (07:57):
Yeah, probably Right.
Because, there's all kinds of regulations
around it for psychologists.
There's actually more for psychologists
than there are someone who doesn't have a
degree.
Dr. Navidi (08:08):
Yeah, oh yeah.
Yeah, someone who doesn't have a degree can
just do a weekend training and put out a
shingle Right.
But but no, so I was.
I got involved with the American society
for clinical hypnosis, ash.
I saw that you also have been associated
(08:30):
with them and they do some great training.
So I was doing as much ASH training as I
could, and I still do so.
I think they're a great organization.
Dr. Liz (08:42):
They are and for the listeners they're a
wonderful way to actually find an hypnosis
practitioner.
They have a tab on their website where you
could find someone in your state, close to
you, probably, depending on where you are.
But yeah, they're a really good resource.
Dr. Navidi (09:01):
Yeah, they are.
Dr. Liz (09:03):
So then, how did you start specializing in
IBS?
Dr. Navidi (09:08):
Yeah, it was an Ash training and I wish I
remember the name of the guy.
He worked out of NIH and he did a talk and
at least part of the talk was on IBS,
hypnosis for IBS and at the time, hypnosis
for.
Ibs and at the time I remember thinking I'm
(09:29):
never going to use this, Like I wasn't
really doing a specialty in health psych.
but you know I learned it.
And then I had a patient that had responded
already well to hypnosis and and had IBS
and I said, well, you know you want to try
this out.
And they did.
They knew I hadn't done it before, they
knew I'd been trained.
So I gave it a shot.
(09:50):
It worked great.
And you know that led to another and
another and, and as I'm kind of doing it
more, I'm learning, I'm reading as much as
I can.
I tried, you know, finding other trainings.
And then the doctors in the area, the
gastroenterologists, start kind of knowing
(10:10):
me and referring more and more patients and
before I know it, it's like 80% of my
practice that chronic pain and chronic pain
yeah.
You know, you know, you just end up with a
lot of complex medical cases, yes and uh,
and throughout it I kind of developed my
(10:30):
own way of of doing it.
Dr. Liz (10:32):
I was gonna ask you do you?
Did you start out with the palson protocol
um, or one of the manchesters, or no?
Dr. Navidi (10:41):
no, you didn't I didn't, I just um.
I kind of learned some of the principles
from the training I did and then just kind
of came up with the rest on my own, and
that's I mean I believe in learning the
right way, but my personality is I always
kind of come up with my own little twist on
(11:01):
things.
Dr. Liz (11:02):
Creative, then it's a creative process.
Dr. Navidi (11:06):
Yeah, very much so.
It's very in the moment kind of adapting
things, but that's just my personal style.
Dr. Liz (11:14):
Yes, I have a mentor who, when I first
started doing hypnosis, I actually met him
at a conference, florida Society of
Clinical Hypnosis, which is a state
subsidiary of ASH, which we just talked
about and you know, funnily enough it's
called FISH, right.
But I met him there and he quickly asked me
(11:40):
he's like are you what happens when you
read a script?
And I said I almost always end up changing
it somehow, like I can never read a script
like completely as it's written all the way
through.
He's like okay, so that means like you're
more on the creative side, like it's a
creative, intuitive process, and he really
affirmed that that that's okay.
(12:00):
You know that that's actually a really
beneficial process because you're in his
perspective, you're tuning into the client.
That's what you're doing and what that
client really needs, and I do.
The Palson Protocol, which is a protocol
for the listeners developed out of
University of North Carolina, chapel Hill.
There's a lot of research on it out of the
medical school there.
(12:21):
So they even took tissue samples of the
bowel for the hypnosis versus the
non-hypnosis group and the bowel tissue
changes, which is amazing.
Like I you know I don't even understand how
all that works really, but I know it does
and so I definitely use that protocol.
But at the same time I've had many cases
(12:44):
where I adapted it to really what the
client needed and is going through, and for
reflex as well.
So it started out strictly for IBS, but I
think they even did research about adapting
it for reflex and had incredible success
with that.
Like people who are not eating anything
(13:05):
like felt like their diet was so limited,
able to eat chocolate again and have coffee
and spicy food.
I remember one client who she emailed me
later in the week this is after working
with her for a while, a couple months or so
and she said I had Thai food.
I'm so excited, like it's amazing, the
(13:29):
difference it can make for people.
I'm sure you have similar experiences, for
that.
Dr. Navidi (13:34):
Yeah, so um.
So once so at a certain point in my career,
you know I had this specialty and I
realized that you know I'm in the DC metro
area and there's nobody else on an
outpatient basis who could see, um, see
kids and adolescents uh, gi with GI issues,
(13:59):
and knew how to use hypnosis, like put
those three together and there was nobody
there.
Yeah, um, and actually, by the way, um, I
helped found the, um, the Northern Virginia
chapter, which which once I I guess, um,
eventually they've kind of broken up, but
it was after I stopped having time to
(14:20):
really participate.
Dr. Liz (14:21):
Yeah.
Dr. Navidi (14:23):
So so long story short, I eventually
started this bigger practice.
Gi psychology uh.
And it's goes by the same website, just G I
psychologycom, and the whole idea was that
there aren't enough people trained to do
this kind of gut brain therapy For sure,
and so that's what we want to do.
So I'm in charge of training, so at this
(14:45):
point I've trained maybe 15, 20 people on
this stuff.
I rely heavily on the Paulson.
I feel like it's a good like training
wheels for people when they're getting
started, you know, and then, as they get
more experience, they can start modifying
it and kind of going off script, but it's,
(15:07):
it's like a safe place for them to come
back to you know when they when they're
unsure about something.
And now Paulson has retired but he's
actually gonna work with us on a study
Awesome that's awesome.
Dr. Liz (15:23):
What's the study gonna be?
Dr. Navidi (15:25):
I think it's just looking at the results of
his protocol like out in the wild, so not
in a controlled like kind of university
medical center situation, but out in the
outpatient world where things get more
complicated yeah.
Dr. Liz (15:44):
Awesome, that's great, great.
Oh, I'll be so interested to hear the
results of that.
Eventually, I'm sure it'll get published.
Dr. Navidi (15:54):
Yeah, with his name on it, of course.
Dr. Liz (15:57):
That's a nice look up, huh.
Dr. Navidi (15:59):
Yeah, it is, and he's such a nice guy.
He's hilarious.
If you ever get a chance to hear him speak,
he's the funniest guy and just really knows
his stuff when it comes to hypnosis.
Dr. Liz (16:10):
I did attend a webinar of his and, yeah, he
was excellent.
It's always nicer when someone's funny
during the presentation or relatable
Totally.
Yeah, it makes it more tolerable.
No one wants to sit through a boring
webinar right when someone's just reading
slides or something.
Dr. Navidi (16:30):
Oh yeah, those are the worst.
Dr. Liz (16:32):
They are yeah.
So how did you get connected with him?
Did you just reach out?
Dr. Navidi (16:38):
Let's see, I think we were at I think it
was DDW, so that's like digestive disease
week, it's like the big gastroenterological
conference and within that they were having
like a little side training for GI
(16:58):
psychologists.
Dr. Liz (16:59):
Okay.
Dr. Navidi (17:00):
And he was doing kind of this.
He was part of a panel of like four people
who were doing specific GI related hypnosis
topics.
Dr. Liz (17:10):
Got it Okay.
Dr. Navidi (17:11):
And so that's how we met him and then we
just kind of kept in touch and it was my
business partner.
She co-founded GI Psychology with me.
She was the one that just approached him
and started chatting and it turned out he
was interested in working together.
Dr. Liz (17:29):
Great, great.
So you serve the Washington DC area and
you're doing in person, I'm assuming.
Dr. Navidi (17:36):
So if you're talking about GI psychology,
the bigger practice we're completely
telehealth and we're in all 50 states.
Dr. Liz (17:44):
All 50 states be part of PSYPACT or we can
do that with hypnosis.
Dr. Navidi (17:50):
No, no, no, no.
This is.
This is again my partner cause.
She does the operation side of the business.
She figured out between side pack and then
getting individual licenses for states.
She managed to cobble together all 50
states so we're able to see patients.
Dr. Liz (18:09):
Incredible.
So for the listener side, psypac is a.
Typically, when you're licensed as a
psychologist, you're licensed in a
particular state, meaning like you cannot
practice in another state.
Each state has their own licensing.
It depends on the state.
Sometimes it's very difficult to get
licensed in another state that you want to
(18:29):
practice in.
It's actually been a historical problem.
When people want to move, it restricts them
often from moving.
So there was an organization that came up
and said hey, let's find a solution to this
and you can join this compact organization
and it'll let you practice in other states
(18:50):
without having to be licensed in that state.
Now hypnosis, I've known, is a loophole
often in the licensing laws where you can
often practice in another state.
Sometimes you have to register with them,
do something like that, but it's not
strictly like I can't do psychotherapy in
another state that I'm not licensed in, but
(19:12):
I could do some hypnosis actually.
So it's sort of a gray area there.
Dr. Navidi (19:15):
And for us, we're always doing our hypnosis
within psychotherapy, you know.
But you could do hypnosis outside of
psychotherapy exactly like you're saying.
That's true.
Dr. Liz (19:30):
Yes, that's a fantastic resource.
My own daughter, my 18-year-old has some
significant GI issues and luckily I know
someone who specializes in that and she
happens to be in Florida.
But you are right, I live in a huge area
South Florida, Miami-Dade, Broward County
(19:50):
and there's no one here that really does
that, so that's an incredible resource for
people.
If you're listening to this and either
yourself or you have a kid who's going
through it and you don't really know how to
help them, so that's fantastic.
Oh, so happy to hear that.
Dr. Navidi (20:07):
And that's the message I you know.
That's why I'm doing podcasts and stuff
like that.
The message I want to get out there is A if
you have these disorders, and if you're
talking about just IBS, one in 10 people
have it.
If you're talking about the broader what's
called disorders of gut brain interaction,
(20:28):
or used to be called functional GI
disorders, which include like dyspepsia,
nausea, vomiting, all kinds of disorders
40% of people at some point in their life
are going to have one of those disorders,
so they are insanely common.
Dr. Liz (20:45):
I did not know.
Is that high?
That's incredibly high, do you think it's?
Dr. Navidi (20:52):
the same in Italy.
When you look at the worldwide data, it
holds true.
Wow, okay.
Dr. Liz (20:58):
You know how they always say like the
Italian diet is so much better.
I'm like is that?
A function of being in the US or that's
worldwide data.
Dr. Navidi (21:06):
No, it's worldwide.
And here's the thing.
It's not really caused by so much what we
eat.
It's caused by that interaction between our
brain and our gut.
Now we might have other problems because of
what we eat.
You know what I mean.
But these aren't necessarily caused by the
(21:26):
food that we eat.
But they can be exacerbated by the food
Once we have one of these disorders of
gut-brain interaction.
Dr. Liz (21:35):
What do you think the underpinnings are?
Dr. Navidi (21:38):
I would say essentially, like the metaphor
I use with a lot of patients is, if you had
a computer, this would be a software
problem versus a hardware problem.
So someone with these problems is going to
go into the doctor and you probably know it
from your daughter.
They're going to get checked out, they're
going to be potentially scoped and they're
not going to find anything wrong
(22:00):
structurally.
But the problem is how the central nervous
system is interacting with the enteric
nervous system.
Now, who tends to get these disorders?
Often it's patients with anxiety.
Now, who tends to get these disorders?
Often it's patients with anxiety, patients
who have a history of trauma, have a
history or currently have an eating
(22:21):
disorder, and then, finally, patients that
are on the spectrum.
Those are the four groups that get it more
often, even though more people than that
can get it, of course.
So if we think about that, I suspect that
the fundamental underpinning of the problem
is when we start to fear our own body's
(22:42):
reactions to things.
Right, there's a very frequent pattern that
you see where somebody gets sick and then,
after they're done being sick, they still
have symptoms.
Dr. Liz (22:56):
Yes.
Dr. Navidi (22:57):
And so what can often happen?
I think they almost call it.
They call it like the PTSD of the gut.
Dr. Liz (23:03):
Oh, I love that.
So accurate to you.
I just want to say like, yes, love it.
Yeah, my daughter is on the spectrum and I
I know there's overlap between GI and she
was diagnosed with gastritis so they did
scope her and actually find something.
But it's the PTSD around food, around like
(23:25):
is that going to make me sick?
Like I don't know if I can eat that, Like
yeah, and it can evolve into an eating
disorder if it's not really addressed Yep.
Dr. Navidi (23:36):
ARFID.
If you're familiar with ARFID, it's
avoidant, restrictive food intake disorder.
For people listening.
Dr. Liz (23:43):
Yes, and these are not people who are
trying to lose weight by restricting their
diet.
They are scared.
They are scared to eat something because it
may land them in the bathroom or make them
sick, nauseous, vomiting, that type of
thing.
So they start to restrict what they can eat
and develop this very personal list of safe,
(24:06):
quote unquote foods.
But then what happens is it evolves into
like nutritional deficiencies if it's not
really handled and it's a hard one, you
know.
I ordered the book, the CBTI for ARFID.
Yeah, and basically it says like one, it's
pretty much the only one on the market
that's even written.
Two, there's not a whole lot of research on
(24:27):
it.
And three, they're like well, we're
shooting in the dark here, you know, like
really.
Dr. Navidi (24:33):
And frequently there's.
From what we've seen, there's two major
paths to ARFID.
Right, there's.
One is the sensory path.
Yes, and you see this with a lot of
patients on the spectrum.
They're very sensitive to textures and
tastes and you know, and they go, they can
develop ARFID through that route.
Then the other route is the fear-based
(24:54):
route.
Yeah, right, they're afraid that it's going
to cause some reaction in their gut, either
pain or nausea or vomiting.
Sometimes it's even combined with
emetophobia, where people have an intense
fear of vomiting.
Oh yeah, so hard they develop similar
problems.
Yeah, yeah, they can develop similar
problems.
Dr. Liz (25:13):
Yeah, yeah, and I think with IBS as well.
People start to try to develop like what
can I eat, what can I not eat?
Dr. Navidi (25:22):
That type of thing.
Dr. Liz (25:23):
Yes, yeah.
Dr. Navidi (25:25):
And the thing is they develop all these
like safe or unsafe foods, but most of the
time it's actually not the food, because
what will happen is, you know, and you know
this as a psychologist they're just having
a bad day and they eat some pizza.
Yeah, right, and so they're.
Then they're thinking huh did, did my
(25:46):
stomach pain?
Was that caused by the pizza?
So then next time they have pizza, they go
into it with with a little bit of fear.
Yes, and guess what?
That fear feeds down the gut-brain axis and
causes more symptoms.
Yes, and so when they eat that pizza,
they're getting more symptoms.
And now they're sure that pizza is bad for
(26:07):
them.
So then every time they eat pizza in the
future, they do it with a sense of doom.
Dr. Liz (26:13):
Yes.
Dr. Navidi (26:13):
They know they're going to have a problem
and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Dr. Liz (26:18):
Yes, right, or they stop eating pizza
completely.
Dr. Navidi (26:22):
Oh well, yeah, I'm not eating the pizza.
Dr. Liz (26:24):
Yeah, it's just not happening.
Yes, yeah, and part of the hypnosis
protocol for them is to help them relax
around food and have them eat a more varied
diet and one that's like satisfying to them
as well, but it does calm down all the
(26:44):
symptoms.
So how long do you typically work with
someone before?
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Navidi (26:51):
So I would say that for me personally it
tends to be rather fast when we're treating
the, the, the GI issue.
So if it's IBS or something like that like
I've got a patient right now and they're
responding well and I'm guessing it's going
to probably be around five or six sessions
(27:13):
and they can be done with their, their DGBI.
The reason I like this work so much, you
know cause sometimes psychologists look at
me a little funny when I say that I'm
specializing in this.
But what I really like about it is it's not
too hard to treat the GI issue, but then
you've got so much therapeutic trust and
(27:35):
momentum that you can also treat what's
often an underlying disorder, which might
be anxiety, it might be depression, it
might be trauma, but there's such a good
relationship there that it's easy to get
that treated.
And often they might not have been willing
to get that treated before.
True, they got that help for the GI problem.
Dr. Liz (27:58):
Yeah, very true, very true.
I love that, it's a very nice way to put it.
And are you seeing them on a weekly basis,
every other week, or is it really
individual?
Dr. Navidi (28:10):
I typically will try to see them weekly
when they start, but if you know, sometimes
people for finances or schedule they need
every other week and I think that's fine.
I don't like to go less than that, yeah me
neither.
Dr. Liz (28:25):
Yeah, I won't actually do it if someone
wants less than that.
Yeah.
Dr. Navidi (28:29):
It's hard to get momentum when it's that
far apart.
You know three weeks, four weeks, things
like that.
Dr. Liz (28:35):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, when someone's been in
therapy with me and they feel like they're
well on their way and they want some
maintenance, then occasionally I'll do that,
but I will not start that way.
It's, yeah, there's not enough momentum.
It's like taking a quarter of an antibiotic
and expecting it to work.
Dr. Navidi (28:55):
That's a great metaphor.
I like it.
Dr. Liz (28:57):
Yeah.
Dr. Navidi (28:58):
Yeah, but related to that, when we look at
the data from our clinic because we've got
10 therapists now trained up I'd say the
average for something like IBS is around 10
sessions, Okay, Like 10 to 14 sessions,
because I think what happens is often
(29:18):
there's something else pops up, right Like
you're treating the IBS and they're like
hey, these panic attacks are really bumming
me out and so you might do a session or two
help with that and then go back to the GI
Got it.
Dr. Liz (29:33):
Are you recording the sessions for them
Like do you send them home with a recording
or yeah.
Dr. Navidi (29:37):
So I would say the the majority of our
therapists.
They will record um and they'll send them
with a recording.
I don't always record um because some of my
hypnosis sessions are not well adapted for
that Meaning.
I like to sometimes do a very interactive
(29:58):
hypnosis where I'm talking to them
throughout or there's ideomotor signals or
something like that.
That doesn't really lend itself to being
recorded and repeated.
Dr. Liz (30:09):
Correct, yeah, agreed.
Dr. Navidi (30:11):
But often, like I'll find out, we'll find
out something that works for someone and
it'll be very interactive, and then the
next session I'll do another version of it
without any interaction, just doing the
thing we know worked.
And then we record that and we give it to
them.
Dr. Liz (30:28):
Okay, got it.
So when you're doing the more interactive
session, what are you exploring?
Dr. Navidi (30:38):
interactive session.
Are you?
What are you exploring?
Yeah, so sometimes it's just something as
simple as you know.
Let me know when you notice that cool
feeling you know in your stomach, or you
know, let me nod your head when you know
this happens or that happens.
Sometimes it's more.
I would consider more advanced techniques,
kind of like exploratory.
(31:09):
So we might be, you know, like
investigating how the problem started.
Looking at internal emotional conflicts,
are you familiar with Dabney Ewan's book
Idiomotor Signals?
Yeah For rapid hypnoanalysis.
Dr. Liz (31:19):
I love that book.
Dr. Navidi (31:20):
Yes, Me too.
Dr. Liz (31:24):
And I actually saw him before he passed
away.
I attended a seminar of his yeah.
Dr. Navidi (31:28):
Oh, I would have loved to meet him.
Dr. Liz (31:30):
Talk about fun.
I mean, kept you on the edge of your seat
and this is like a two-day seminar of you
know.
We start at nine, we have a lunch break and
we end at like five or something.
And I mean, yeah, notebooks full of notes
from him.
He's incredible, he was incredible.
(31:51):
He sadly passed away a couple of years ago,
but, yeah, his book is fantastic as well.
Dr. Navidi (31:52):
Yeah, it's so well done and I've read a lot
of hypnosis books and it's such an
accessible book.
He basically gives you a flow chart for how
to do this.
Really, some can be very complicated,
nuanced work and he gives you this great
(32:13):
flow chart for how to do it.
And I love his acronym I still use the
compass C-O-M-P-I-S-S to, like you know, as
exploring it.
So for people listening that it's, it's a,
it's a.
It was originally developed, I think
(32:33):
earlier, by another clinician named Cheek.
I can't remember his full name, but they
called it the seven keys, the seven keys
for psychosomatic disorders.
So it's like internal conflict, organ
language, motivation, past experience,
identity, I think, self-suggestion or
(32:54):
suggestion and then self-punishment.
I think those are the seven and exploring
that.
It just blows my mind still the stuff you
find when you go in there and look for that
stuff.
Dr. Liz (33:07):
Yes, I usually use guides on my Kindle and
so I have his seven questions and sometimes,
when I get stuck with a client, I will go
to his seven questions to ask.
That are asking like was this suggested by
someone in authority?
Is this related to something in your past.
(33:27):
Like you know, it is very well laid out,
but you're right, it is more of an advanced
technique of um in someone who's willing to
do that.
Work with you too.
Not everyone's really willing to do that.
Dr. Navidi (33:41):
Yeah, and I usually my philosophies.
I like to start at the more surface level,
like if we can solve this problem directly
with just direct suggestion.
Great, you know, you're in're, in, you're
out, you're done you know, it's for the
people that don't tend to respond to those
(34:01):
direct suggestions in the way that they
would like that I often will then switch
over to the more exploratory methods yeah,
same here.
Dr. Liz (34:10):
I'm always like look, if we can get this,
if you don't need the deeper methods, we
don't do them.
Yeah you know let's, yeah, let's start here,
and then only if we can get this, if you
don't need the deeper methods, we don't do
them.
You know let's, yeah, let's start here, and
then only if we need them do we go there.
Yeah, so when should someone consider
hypnosis if they have a GI disorder?
Dr. Navidi (34:25):
So if they've got a GI disorder, you know
they're noticing pain or nausea or
something, of course, go to your primary
care.
You know, do the tests and, more likely
than not, the test will show that there is
not a significant structural component.
And if that's the case, then I would
suggest, you know, reaching out to us, you
(34:46):
know, or reaching out to someone in your
area that's trained in hypnosis and trained
in working with GI, cause not every, not
every, person who's trained in hypnosis
knows how to work with IBS or functional
dyspepsia.
Dr. Liz (35:00):
No, it's a small percentage actually.
Who knows how to do that?
Who has the both?
Dr. Navidi (35:05):
Yes, exactly, exactly, and that's the thing.
That's why we, you know, created, you know,
gi psychology.
It's just it's so rare Like literally GI
psychology, it's just it's so rare Like
literally, I think, the latest, numbers
were there are 500 trained gut brain
therapists in the world, that's probably
(35:25):
more than that.
Yeah, you know, maybe you could double that
and be generous.
Say there's a thousand in the world but
still that's not a lot.
That's not a lot.
That's ridiculously low compared to how
many people have these problems.
Dr. Liz (35:39):
Yeah, absolutely it is.
So do you ever suggest someone try apps
first, like there's the Nerva app?
Dr. Navidi (35:48):
Yeah.
Dr. Liz (35:49):
You do.
Dr. Navidi (35:49):
Well, it depends.
I think Nerva is good.
What they've done is solid.
Simone Peters is the one who created their
IBS section.
She's in Australia and she knows her stuff
and they've done studies to show that it
helps apt.
(36:10):
They have a really poor follow-through rate.
People tend to do a few sessions and then
basically give up, and there's all kinds of
different limitations.
But I think if somebody just wants to give
things a try and they want a low cost entry
(36:32):
into it, I think something like Nerva is a
great way to start.
Dr. Liz (36:36):
Yeah, I think the same thing.
But the biggest limitation is that there's
no way an app could customize to you what
you really need, and so when you see a
trained hypnotherapist specializes in this
area, we know how to do that.
We know how to adapt to you area.
Dr. Navidi (36:57):
We know how to do that.
We know how to adapt to you Absolutely and
and it's like it's going to be a while till
till.
An app, can you know pace it to.
You know, like, take a little longer if you
can tell they need to go, you know they
need that extra time to kind of sink in or
speed it up If you know they're already
where they need to be.
You know, like, even just the pacing and
then using language that that really
(37:19):
resonates with them and using metaphors
that resonate with them.
Dr. Liz (37:23):
Yes, so true, yeah, yeah.
Well, you have given us some great
information about hypnosis and GI disorders
and some eating disorders too, arfid, so I
really appreciate you being here today.
Can you please tell people again how to
find your practice and how to get connected
(37:44):
and get some help that they want?
Dr. Navidi (37:47):
Sure thing.
So it's just gipsychologycom, really simple.
It's gipsychologycom, really simple.
We've got a free 15-minute consult with a
(38:10):
clinically trained person who will answer
people's questions and help them figure out
if this is the right thing for them.
We're available in all 50 states.
Oh, I didn't mention this is pretty cool.
We partner with all these organizations.
So so we're partnered with Crohn's and
colitis foundation and the American college
of gastroenterology you know Georgetown in
in my area.
Medstar scripts on the web, so it's like
(38:31):
probably about 20 different organizations.
The Mayo clinic we're partnered with and
we're their kind of GI psychology support
Fantastic.
Dr. Liz (38:43):
What about outside of the US?
Do you take?
Dr. Navidi (38:48):
international clients we haven't quite
figured out.
We've had a few patients over the years
that were outside the United States, but we
haven't explored it as a general practice.
We haven't gone out and made ourselves
available, but as far as I can tell, it
seems to be a very similar problem outside
(39:09):
of the United States too.
There just aren't a lot of trained people
out there who understand how to do this
work.
Dr. Liz (39:16):
Okay, got it All right.
Just asking because I know people out there
who understand how to do this work.
Okay, got it All right.
Just asking Cause I know people all over
the world listen to the podcast, so I want
them to be able to have the resource, and
I've worked with clients all over the world
as well.
I I will say that, like Asia and Australia
is really difficult for me because of the
time difference.
Yes, you get into like 12, 13 hour time
(39:36):
differences.
But Europe, South America yeah, that's all
pretty easy yeah.
Dr. Navidi (39:43):
Yeah.
Dr. Liz (39:43):
But thank you so much for being here and
sharing your wisdom.
Dr. Navidi (39:47):
Oh, my pleasure it was.
It was a real pleasure talking with you and
it sounds like we have a lot of very
similar interests in terms of hypnosis and
probably know a lot of the same people.
I look forward to maybe meeting you in
person at one of the ASH conferences once
they start getting back to in person.
Dr. Liz (40:07):
Yeah, hopefully, hopefully we'll meet up
sometime.
Dr. Navidi (40:10):
Yeah, that would be great.
Well, it was a pleasure talking with you,
thank you.
Dr. Liz (40:49):
I hope you truly enjoyed today's episode.
Remember that you can get free hypnosis
downloads over at my website,
drlizhypnosiscom D-R-L-I-Z-hypnosiscom.
I work all over the world doing hypnosis,
so if you're interested in working with me,
please schedule a free consultation over at
(41:10):
my website and we'll see what your goals
are and if I can be of service to you in
helping you reach them.
Finally, if you liked today's episode,
please subscribe to the podcast or tell a
friend.
That way, more and more people learn about
the power of hypnosis.
All right, everyone, have a wonderful week,
peace.
(41:32):
This podcast is not mental health treatment,
nor should it replace mental health
treatment.
If you need therapy or hypnotherapy, please
seek treatment from a trained professional.
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Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
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